Comments

  1. andyo says

    Apparently if someone thinks that “misandry” is an actual problem, they’re gonna feel they’re entitled to comment on it anywhere and whenever those feminist bullies raise any concerns. “This is not the time for it” just doesn’t register.

  2. Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinist says

    Oh, I like him! He’s an ally. And he’s right. It’s too bad I get the feeling that he’s only ever preaching to the choir. ‘Nice guys’, they’re part of the problem and I never do see them becoming anything other than ‘nice guys’ even though I expect he wants to be reaching them. We all know there’s no breaking through to the MRAs and their like.

    (Does anyone know what accent that is? It’s dreamy.)

  3. krgrace says

    It is good advice. And I got an unexpected chuckle from “make fetch happen.”

  4. says

    It’s good advice for anyone coming from a position of privilege. I think there are a lot of well-meaning guys who want to argue on some technicality who don’t realize just how damaging they’re being. Will the hardcore MRAs and misogynists care about this video? No, but maybe that genuinely nice guy who fancies himself a feminist and doesn’t grasp exactly what it means to be an ally will get a clue.

    The video reminded me of far too many conversations I’ve had with liberal Christians I know who react with anger and call people bigots when the horrors of religion are pointed out to them. They don’t go “yeah, that’s right and that’s why I do X, Y and Z.” They just go on the defense, refuse to listen and make themselves look like assholes.

  5. Brownian says

    (Does anyone know what accent that is? It’s dreamy.)

    He’s a New Yorker.

    Honestly, I could listen to Jay Smooth talk for hours.

  6. marko says

    It’s too bad I get the feeling that he’s only ever preaching to the choir.

    Not sure I agree. I think that his suggestion to call it wherever we see it is perfectly valid. I think it’s quite easy for a general mass to get dragged in like sheep to the bullying, they find strength in number, but as soon as their idiotic views get exposed they go running. Sometimes the choir can make a big difference.

    I thought the general style was a bit Bill Cosby, couldn’t work out if I liked it or not, but I did like the peanuts style backing track.

  7. says

    Well said sir. I personally think the web would be a much less stressful place if we were all politer to one another. As my Mum always said good manners cost nothing.

  8. says

    Good manners and clear speaking are viewed as a weakness by some. Where ‘some’ means the type that feel their dudelymojo is being threatened.

  9. Heliantus says

    I like this guy.

    Coincidentally, Maki at Sci-ence posted a comic strip on the same topic.

    I’m glad to see these reactions. As the gamer dude above said, it was an horrible spectacle to watch.

    I get the feeling that he’s only ever preaching to the choir.

    Even if it was so, it is still important. As Maki said in his comic strip, it makes a world of difference to whose victim of bullying to know they have support in the community.

  10. karmakin says

    Being polite is the problem. At least it’s the problem for the good people.

    One of the hard parts to doing something about this is that generally speaking the non-misogynists are the more polite people, and as such are less likely to speak up and smack down this sort of thing (I know speaking for myself it’s sometimes a difficult thing to do. It’s just not something I’m comfortable with)

  11. quoderatdemonstrandum says

    peterhockley @ 7

    Well said sir. I personally think the web would be a much less stressful place if we were all politer to one another. As my Mum always said good manners cost nothing.

    I think good manners are an important social skill. Being polite is usually a quality. But sometimes your interlocutor just needs to understand, in plain language he will understand, that he is a filthy slime-pit dwelling, shit-eating, excuse for a human being who takes pleasure in oppressing women. That he is, in short, an septic arsehole and can stick a decaying porcupine dipped in hot tar and glass shards up his pustule-covered arse sideways, slowly.

    There can be a cost to good manners. Being “nice” and “polite” is a short journey to being “accomodating” to bigots who want to legislate their religion, hatred and bigotry on the rest of us. They need to be told to fuck right off.

    [OT: Manners]

    The other thing about “good manners” is that they can be utilized to embarrass and shame other people. Manners: not just a quality, also a weapon. And good manners are not universal, what is polite in one country/city/region can be a faux pas or even offensive in another. Lastly, some places have very challenging concepts of “good manners” try going to Japan and not commit faux pas on a daily, if not hourly, basis.

  12. baal says

    We can all aspire to being as concise and charismatic as Jay Smooth. I think he does a great job speaking to those who can be spoken to and he does it with out compromising his position.

  13. Kalliope says

    I’ve had a massive crush on this guy for ages. Ahem.

    He may be preaching to the choir, but he is so freakin’ smart and ELOQUENT that he helps people verbalize arguments and points. He is such an extraordinary speaker, he can help the rest of us.

  14. jehk says

    No, but maybe that genuinely nice guy who fancies himself a feminist and doesn’t grasp exactly what it means to be an ally will get a clue.

    This was/is pretty much me. Thanks to videos like this (and sites like Pharyngula) I’ve gone from “4chan is 4chan” type dismissal to a “dude not cool” reaction.

    I still have no idea what it means to be an ally. Calling out such inappropriate behavior when I see it is the best I can do.

  15. Kalliope says

    And he’s not a gamer, or that’s his big thing (maybe he does it for fun, who knows). He’s involved in the NYC hip hop community and deals with issues of social justice.

    It’s worth looking through his site for his other videos. If only to appreciate the full scope of his talent.

    http://www.illdoctrine.com/

  16. Louis says

    So a guy basically says “guys, don’t do that”….hmmm.

    I predict the internet will not blow up about this.

    Louis

  17. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    dudelymojo

    *snicker* I’m stealing that.

    can’t wait to watch the vid! (no speakers at work. boooo)

  18. cleothemuse says

    Kudos to this guy and to the woman with the Kickstarter… there needs to be some heavy market research done on female demographics in gaming and sci-fi/fantasy genre (TV, movies, etc.) to spark some changes in the mainstream views that these areas are “boys’ clubs”.

  19. Matt Penfold says

    I personally think the web would be a much more intelligent place if idiot tone trolls didn’t elevate “civility” over not being an asshole.

    Well there is a difference between civility and politeness. Being civil is not saying things like fuck in front of your mother. Being polite is not making idiotic, racist, sexist etc arguments (and other things of course!).

  20. Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinist says

    Brownian, yeah. And now I’m going to.
    ________

    Don’t get me wrong, he’s right on message. Of course, we all can and should call out douchebag behaviour. I’m just unsure if his message will get to where it most needs to get.

  21. deephlat says

    Trolling can be entertaining when it is mocking crazy people by being a Poe. But I can never enjoy it for the same reason that I can’t watch “The Colbert Report” or “Tosh.0″: because of knowing that there is a significant audience who doesn’t actually see the irony and directly agrees with every opinion like Colbert’s conservativism and Tosh’s blatent racism/sexism/ anti-disabledism. It’s just too disturbing to think about and I can’t enjoy either show. (I’m referring to “The Irony of Satire: Political Ideology and the Motivation to See What You Want to See in The Colbert Report”.)

  22. arbor says

    Most excellent.

    It felt like taking a long hot sudsy shower after being filthed by trolls.

  23. quoderatdemonstrandum says

    [OT]

    Amphigorey @ 23

    Most excellent Nym. My spouse introduced me to Edward Gorey and I bought her a collection of first editions for successive birthdays.

    Now have a daughter and wonder how old she needs to be before I read her Amphigorey bed time stories.

    I suppose Gashlycrumb tinies is straight out inappropriate. . .

  24. ewanmacdonald says

    I missed a chance to call out behaviour like this yesterday and I’ve been kicking myself for it ever since. This video is a reminder not to do that.

  25. Amphiox says

    I personally think the web would be a much less stressful place if we were all politer to one another.

    Why do you think “less stressful” should be a quality to be valued over “more intelligent” or “more safe”, or “more equal”, or “more inclusive”?

    As my Mum always said good manners cost nothing.

    Your Mum is dead wrong. Good manners directed in the wrong direction costs a LOT.

  26. baal says

    I still have no idea what it means to be an ally.

    I wouldn’t try to get to “ally” status. It’s a Will-o’-the-wisp.

    The definition depends on who you ask and the range from the commenters on this blog vary from any-one-who-is-trying (rarely) to unless-you’re-a-member-of-the-relevant-in-group-and-devoted- activist you don’t count (more often).

  27. says

    You know what I love about this video? It’s not about dudes protecting women (barf), but about dudes being good people.

    That’s an important distinction and Jay Smooth nails it perfectly.

    baal:

    unless-you’re-a-member-of-the-relevant-in-group-and-devoted- activist you don’t count

    Somebody doesn’t know what “ally” means! An ally by definition is someone who doesn’t belong to whatever group, but still supports the cause.

    Herp a derp.

  28. sphex says

    I <3 Jay Smooth. And I've learned a lot from him. And here he is both funny and frightening.
    Gulp.

  29. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @SallyStrange #16:

    Word. Those of you who’ve never heard of Jay Smooth before, go browse his videos. He’s best known for his “How To Tell Someone They Sound Racist” bit.

    The topic of that vid was distinguishing “What they did” vs “What they are”, advising against criticising the latter because it derails.
     
    Is this what the shark tank tries to do by colorfully paraphrasing the effective meaning of someone’s action comment?
     
    It gets confusing with responses to known or suspected trolls mixed in, over the course of thousands of comments covering the same basic material over and over…

    @quoderatdemonstrandum #11:

    But sometimes your interlocutor just needs to understand, in plain language he will understand, that he is a filthy slime-pit dwelling, shit-eating, excuse for a human being who takes pleasure in oppressing women. That he is, in short, an septic arsehole and can stick a decaying porcupine dipped in hot tar and glass shards up his pustule-covered arse sideways, slowly.

  30. sphex says

    Sorry for the double post AND the linkage disaster. I’ll figure this out, one of these days. :(

  31. Shplane says

    Huh. A vlogger I can actually stand to watch? That’s pretty weird. I normally can’t stand the format. I think it might be his voice.

  32. echidna says

    “This is not the time for it” just doesn’t register.

    It may not register with the hardened MRA’s, but it may register with the clueless. More importantly, it helps to challenge the idea that it is normal and right for a man to assert dominance in every possible situation.

  33. cm's changeable moniker says

    Being civil polite is not saying things like fuck in front of your mother. Being polite civil is not making idiotic, racist, sexist etc arguments

    /quibble

    On birth rates. So smooth, so cool.

  34. DLC says

    For the video : well said. also well made. A couple light-years better than the typical vlog.

  35. Amphigorey says

    #29, quoderatdemonstratum – Thank you! I’ve been a Gorey fan for years. His work is beautiful.

    I suppose you could start your daughter on the Wuggly Ump and go from there.

  36. Erista (aka Eris) says

    I like this guy. I want to give him the huggles. Can we have more of this? Pretty please?

    Oh and @Louis/17,

    Not just a dude saying, “Guys, don’t do that,” but a guy saying that for several minutes rather than several seconds! Dun dun DUN!

  37. says

    @SallyStrange #16:

    Word. Those of you who’ve never heard of Jay Smooth before, go browse his videos. He’s best known for his “How To Tell Someone They Sound Racist” bit.

    The topic of that vid was distinguishing “What they did” vs “What they are”, advising against criticising the latter because it derails.

    Is this what the shark tank tries to do by colorfully paraphrasing the effective meaning of someone’s action comment?

    I don’t know. Have you asked “the shark tank”? I’ve not seen that ‘nym around here, but I’m not on 24/7, so…

    It gets confusing with responses to known or suspected trolls mixed in, over the course of thousands of comments covering the same basic material over and over…

    @quoderatdemonstrandum #11:

    But sometimes your interlocutor just needs to understand, in plain language he will understand, that he is a filthy slime-pit dwelling, shit-eating, excuse for a human being who takes pleasure in oppressing women. That he is, in short, an septic arsehole and can stick a decaying porcupine dipped in hot tar and glass shards up his pustule-covered arse sideways, slowly.

    I don’t really know why you’re confused, but I’m going to take a guess.

    1. You appear to be conflating me with the entire commentariat

    2. You appear to be assuming that since I think Mr. Smooth’s advice in that video was good, that means I think it’s good advice all the time, applicable in every situation.

  38. Dhorvath, OM says

    Sally,
    We are the shark tank. Well, I guess we is a little imprecise given my level of participation of late, but I think that gets the idea across.

  39. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @SallyStrange #47:

    Have you asked “the shark tank”?

    I’d seen pharyngulites use the term intermittently for the atmosphere here of being aggressive-to-fools. Usually it’s accompanied by a mention of how welcoming and safe this place is thanks to the no-BS policy. Maybe not used often enough to be a nickname then.

    You appear to be conflating me with the entire commentariat

    Since you charitably brought up the video, and I thought you were a long-time active regular, it seemed appropriate to ask you if there was a trend among the commentariat of consistently applying that distinction to certain classes of commenters.
    I thought maybe the rules for recognized trolls and recalcitrants, who stole more screentime, were obscuring my understanding of different house rules for dealing with the clueless, because of superficially similar outcomes.

    You appear to be assuming that since I think Mr. Smooth’s advice in that video was good, that means I think it’s good advice all the time, applicable in every situation.

    I was trying to confirm one of the ‘multiple levels’ you’d previously alluded to and hoping exceptions would be part of any informative responses. I understand that I’m not entitled to your time explaining the way of things. Had this thread been busier, someone else might’ve chimed in.

  40. says

    We are the shark tank. Well, I guess we is a little imprecise given my level of participation of late, but I think that gets the idea across.

    I know. I was snarking. Poorly, it seems. There are norms, but I don’t speak for anyone else, just myself.

    @ Compulsory

    Personally, I try to observe the rule of sticking to criticizing what a person does/says rather than what they are.

    If they respond to such criticism with further foolishness then insulting their very person–calling them a weeping pustule oozing infected pus on the ass of humanity, or similar hyperbole–is fair game. I find that insults that grow out of observing and honestly characterizing what a person says/does yield a much better caliber of insult–more incisive, more creative, and above all, more accurate.

    Honestly, 90% of the time this approach doesn’t really make much difference, as Mr. Smooth (I love typing that! I hope I get to meet him in person someday just so I can say, “Hello, Mr. Smooth”) explained in a talk that was something of a follow-up to the one I mentioned. However, in the 10% of times it does work, it means you’ve discovered a person who was propagating bigoted ideas out of ignorance rather than malice, and is open to learning how to act in a way that better comports with what they feel is their intrinsic nature (i.e., non-bigoted).

  41. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Usually it’s accompanied by a mention of how welcoming and safe this place is

    That sounds nice.

  42. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @SallyStrange #50: Thank you for the non-snark reply.

    And for another of his talks. I forgot to keep searching for more after perusing his youtube channel. :)

  43. cogito says

    Daisycutter: You mostly seem to enjoy trying to shout down anyone you disagree with. Im not impressed.

  44. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @Azkyroth 51:

    Usually it’s accompanied by a mention of how welcoming and safe this place is [thanks to the no-BS policy]

    That sounds nice.

    You edited out the most important part.

  45. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    You edited out the most important part.

    I wasn’t addressing it, though that part would be welcome too.

  46. says

    Daisycutter: You mostly seem to enjoy trying to shout down anyone you disagree with. Im not impressed.

    ooo, the lone rebel, speaking truth to power. Tell me more. I’m just dying to hear what pablum you subscribe to, the dangerous, banal knowledge you possess that others won’t give credit to.

    Arrogant twit.

  47. Marcus Hill (mysterious and nefarious) says

    Another post proving that Myers is just a mangina who is now completely in the thrall of the feminazis. Why can’t these women take a joke? What about the menz?

  48. baal says

    but still supports the cause.

    Herp a derp.

    Yes, herp those derps. very droll. I feel like I’m in the barrens chat? Would you like to follow up with “you mad bro?”

    My point is that there is a moving goal post as to what constitutes support and the you might as well try playing mumbly-peg with Bishop than head down that road (as you and the derpster illustrate).

    And Daisy, no. To have called me out, you and friends would have to address my point. Did you miss the part where I lauded Jay Cool? Do I need to recite how many times I’ve forwarded URLs to his stuff to folks I know?

  49. Marcus Hill (mysterious and nefarious) says

    I’m with you, baal. No matter how much you do, those wimmin will never give you credit, amirite?

  50. says

    What the.. I don’t care if he’s right in defending her, he just dumped a humptonne of fallacies:

    –People who watch Anita’s vlog don’t ‘know her opinion’ yet.
    (She’s supposed to be making a documentary for schools, not an opinion piece, and she’s made enough vids for people to learn how she works)

    –People who think she’s a misandrist shouldn’t assume that she’s going to be unfair in a documentary about sexism.
    (self explainable)

    –That a lot of trolls are lying to themselves about it not being sexist; “Only someone who hates women and sees them as less than human would think that’s a meaningful distinction.”
    (The difference between being a Misanthrope and a Misogynist is a critical one.
    One term includes hating men and the other is passive, so if you honestly think they’re indistinguishable from one another you have to be assuming that hatred of men is your default position whenever it isn’t actually mentioned.
    So to use his own words, only someone who hates men and sees them as less than human would think it’s not a meaningful distinction.)

    –It’s unacceptable to point out that its not just women who are discriminated against.
    (Being a Misanthrope does not means you are actually sexist, they’re assholes to everyone equally. I’d take young misanthrope over young bigot as people grow out of misanthropy, but the bigoted idea that men and women should be treated differently is a major problem in society today)

    –That people don’t see the Hateful Trolling towards Anita as wrong.
    (Thats blatantly false. Trolls do this shit is because they get off on it being so offensive and wrong. Saying they’re doing is wrong is just offering them condiments for their meal.)

    –That politely accusing trolls of being afraid of women and stupid is going to help solve things instead of making the problem worse.
    (Trolls feed off insults, just be aware that you’re offering them a fight that will escalate beyond your comfort levels quickly. Go dig around 4chan and see what they do for fun. Insulting is not a wise tactic.)

    If you don’t think women and men are the same, be aware that compared to people who do, you are the bigot. You can tell if someone is *actually* sexist because they say “..but they are different really”. Being sexist doesn’t mean you’re hostile to people, just that you think they ‘should’ be treated differently. One day your current ‘enlightened’ view is going to be the sexist old grandparent view, there’s still further to go. The people who try to get you to include men are actually trying to strengthen your point, not detract from it. It’s saying to actual misoginists “you’re not attacking women, you’re attacking us, people, everyone.” If someone truely is a misoginyst they don’t care what happens to women, if you frame them as attacking people though men are no longer framed as being ‘on their side’. It becomes the whole of society against one loud moron. Don’t ever defend someone ‘because they’re a women’, defend them because they’re being attacked or wronged and they can’t handle it by themselves.

  51. cogito says

    Daisycutter: I called you out for jumping on a commenter who (perhaps naively) wanted more civil discourse. I pointed out that calling him an idiot and an asshole pretty much makes YOU the troll. And from this you somehow assume that I am a “dood” and a mansplainer. Hint: people can disagree with you without being evil/stupid etc.
    ruteekatreya: see above.
    For the record, Jay Smooth is awesome.