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Jun 04 2012

Episode CCCXXXIV: Eject! Eject! Eject!

I knew this was going to happen. It’s been a long day and night of travel, and of course you filled up the endless thread. So quick! Get out!

(Episode CCCXXXIII: Eyjafjallajökull.)

877 comments

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  1. 1
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    I knew this was going to happen. It’s been a long day and night of travel, and of course you filled up the endless thread. So quick! Get out!

    PZ, when you’re not busy Creating Deep Rifts, TET is all we have.

  2. 2
    John Morales

    [from last instantiation]

    SQB:

    What do you think happens to those one day old cockerels?

    Nothing that contradicts the happy status of my hens.

    (You deny they’re happy? You quail at their privilege?)

  3. 3
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    You quail at their privilege?

    *wonders if bird pun was intentional*

  4. 4
    Dick the Damned

    Could we arrange for ‘antigodless’ to be put in one of those seats, without a parachute, (because he’d really want to rely on his faith)?

  5. 5
    SQB

    Eject! Eject! Eject!

  6. 6
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ RahXephon

    PZ, when you’re not busy Creating Deep Rifts, TET is all we have.

    TZT grants you residency after a mere 10 years working in our salt mines.

  7. 7
    John Morales

    [meta]

    RahXephon, your wondering vindicates my reasons for why I like it here.

    (How many people would so much as get it? ;) )

    (When I can, I strive for euphony in its various senses, least of all via alliterative allusions)

  8. 8
    julietdefarge

    Looks like somebody watched the Mythbusters last night.

  9. 9
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    ‘Morning all!

    Happy Saturday, Og!

  10. 10
    consciousness razor

    Jesus Christ, every asshole on the planet living in a city thinks everyone else doesn’t know a damn thing. Thanks ever so much.

    That isn’t what I was thinking, but … you’re welcome?

  11. 11
    ChasCPeterson

    Have we reached a consensus yet as to whether ‘meat-based’ is synonymous with ‘non-veg*’?

  12. 12
    mattandrews

    What’s the difference between the Endless Thread and the Zombie Thread, other than the zombies?

  13. 13
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Katrina, I’m really sorry about Sasha-kitteh.

    Welcome back, Ing! Great photos, and much luck with those job offers.

    Regarding SGBM and SC… this blog is much, much nicer with them killfiled. I tip my hat to HappiestSadist, Setar, Pteryxx, and others who are highlighting SGBM’s pattern of abusive behaviors. Personally, I don’t have the energy to deal with their bullshit. I come here to enjoy myself, as well as to learn. I don’t learn jack shit from assholes, at least not the lessons they want me to take away.

    So, is that hobby-horse free-range?

    Snerk.

    Who will, no doubt, harp endlessly on how meeeeeean I am to him for days, and possibly even years.

    And save every hyperlink in which you were meeeeeean to him just so he can throw it in your face when he feels like monopolizing the thread.

    Ibyea:

    I don’t think caring about the suffering of animals is ridiculous.

    FWIW, HappiestSadist is vegetarian and actually does care about animal suffering. I speak from having known them for nearly a decade now.

    Jadehawk:

    turns out all people are going to be irrational fuckweasels about something.

    And food policers are totes rational, right?

    TET is becoming increasingly less useful for discussion, too.

    Which must be the fault of the people who don’t like to be bullied. Because, again, the food policers are totes rational.

    Agent Silversmith:

    My neighbours regularly donate me bits of their flesh, so that I don’t come over and eat them all at once.

    This seems to be a thing nowadays (check links at very end of OP, and TW for violence).

    Caine:

    Jesus Christ, every asshole on the planet living in a city thinks everyone else doesn’t know a damn thing.

    No shit, eh? What a friend of mine who’s what used to be called a consummate countrywoman calls “citiots.” Pace Janine, not all city dwellers are citiots, but the ones who are… goddamn.

    Speaking of food policing…. this person, fucking ugh. Self-righteous, paternalistic, clueless about poverty, resorts to dumbass invective when called on her privilege… yet describes herself as “radical.”

    Rorschach, I’m not sure that meatspace connections between atheists qua atheists, who do not necessarily share any other connection, is a great idea either. The social media aren’t the problem here.

    Josh, here’s my contribution.

    Also:

    There is something comforting about having a hidey-hole.

    I think some of us must be part cat.

    YES to the sleeping under the pressure of heavy quilts. I need that too.

    I don’t need a heavy quilt, but I do need something weighing on me when I sleep, even if it’s just one sheet and one thin blanket. If it’s too warm in the room for me to sleep completely uncovered, it’s generally going to be too warm in the room for me to sleep, period.

    Crip Dyke: In chilly weather, naked snuggling is teh awsum. In warm weather, somewhat less. Also: Duvets in the winter. LUV.

    Morales:

    You quail at their privilege?

    Stop being so unpheasant.

    Finally, I missed this yesterday:

    Giliell:

    He regularly fucks something up, but he also has the ability to come around again. That’s why I just like him.

    Jason Thibeault can still fuck right off. Happiestsadist, a survivor whom he triggered, and I, who actually did leave him a reasonable comment, are still in perma-moderation over there. I’m convinced the only reason he eventually listened to Josh is because Josh is another guy. Oh, and yeah, he banned Ginmar for giving him hell, as he richly deserved.

    No feminist cookies for that smug, self-impressed asshole.

  14. 14
    hyperdeath

    In other news, the Pharyngula Wiki is sad and neglected. Can people start editing it again? Much drama and hoggling goes undocumented.

  15. 15
    consciousness razor

    What’s the difference between the Endless Thread and the Zombie Thread, other than the zombies?

    They’re not so different. TZT has become a place where a few trolls are quarantined, to keep them from stinking up other threads. TET is a more all-purpose open-thread, so that anyone can discuss whatever they like without disrupting conversations elsewhere.

  16. 16
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    I think some of us must be part cat.

    It’s funny you should say this, actually… Several months ago I got my hair cut from nearly shoulder-length to a really short cut for the first time. (For reference, my hair is about 2 inches long). I then discovered quite how nice it is to have ones hair stroked or ruffled, or ones head scratched, like a cat. (I find it extremely therapeutic, particularly when coming from the right people.) And I now also get regular suggestions from my friends that if I wasn’t human, I’d totally be a cat, or maybe a puppy.

    Stop being so unpheasant.

    All these bird puns are kind of hard to swallow…

  17. 17
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Hyperdeath,
    IIRC, anyone can update the ‘Wiki, so if you would like to, feel free!

  18. 18
    mattandrews

    @15 consciousness razor:

    Danke schoen, mon amigo.

  19. 19
    mattandrews

    @16 Sarahface:

    That’s the cardinal rule of bird puns.

  20. 20
    ginmar

    Thibault’s easy to like, I guess, if he’s not turning his stupid and his arrogance on you, and it’s not your issues he’s lecturing you on. And he calls himself a feminist. First part of trying to be one of those while male would be listening—–and I noticed he only listened to the other guy. He’ll unmod you, Daze, if you kiss his ass and blow him at the same time.

    Not particularly sciency, but I’m sort of appalled how teary-eyed I get at certain parts of Harry Potter and The Horrendously Long Title, Part 2. Maggie Smith calling down the stone guardions in that commanding voice? Maggie Smith snapping that “And his name is Voldemort! You might as well use it, he’s going to try and kill you anyway.” Plus Neville. Oh, Neville. So nice of Rowling to develop the character like that. Ahem.

  21. 21
    hyperdeath

    While these constant bird puns can be annoying, it’s a fairly mynah issue.

  22. 22
    hyperdeath

    Audley, I have been working on the Wiki. I am trying to improve the You’re Not Helping article, so that the the next time Wally Smith slimes his way onto the internet, newcomers can read the backstory.

  23. 23
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    Well, if you’re all just going to parrot the obvious jokes, then I guess I’ll have to join you.

  24. 24
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Sarahface: That was fowl.

    *ducks*

  25. 25
    mattandrews

    I will say there’s a flicker of originality to these puns.

  26. 26
    mattandrews

    I’ll be robin other sources for material.

  27. 27
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I realize the same compulsion appears to have driven Truth Machine to finally hate Pharyngula — assuming that was him over in the Slimepit as “forced to be anonymous” — but I dunno, I think I have more stamina than he did.

    I still find it virtually impossible to believe that was him. He was a consistent advocate for feminism here.

  28. 28
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Not bird puns but, well, just follow the link.

    You will regret it.

  29. 29
    birgerjohansson

    Stockholm braves coldest June weather in 84 years: experts http://phys.org/news/2012-06-stockholm-braves-coldest-june-weather.html
    -Actually this is a good thing. It kills off ticks and other creepy crawlies.
    — — — — —
    Musical study challenges long-held view of left brain-right brain split http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-06-musical-long-held-view-left-brain-right.html
    — — — — —
    Time found to be fixed to terrain for Papua New Guinea tribe http://phys.org/news/2012-06-terrain-papua-guinea-tribe.html
    The future is “uphill”, the past has flowed “downhill”
    — — — — — —
    Warming turns tundra to forest http://phys.org/news/2012-06-tundra-forest.html
    The good news is, these changes are easily tracked. Denialists have to accept the re ality of the new forests, even if they shrug it off as “just another warming period” (see examples among comments at Physorg.com)

  30. 30
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Sarahface @ #16: Since cutting my hair short, having my head scratched or my scalp rubbed, or even just a hair ruffle is enough to make me trail off mid-sentence with my eyes rolled back. I apparently also get the same “But WHY? Why’d you stop?” face that cats do when whoever’s doing it stops.

    Nice to know I’m not the only one who loves head rubs like that.

  31. 31
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Hyperdeath,
    Ah, I gotcha. Sorry I assumed that you weren’t editing it!

    Rock on.

  32. 32
    birgerjohansson

    Eject! Eject! Eject!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iToQ2FykoI
    A nice example of “superstall” seen from 3 different angles.

  33. 33
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I hope the people who like to shout “Language police!” when anyone points to the harmful effects of their sexist/racist/homophobic language aren’t reading.

  34. 34
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    @Happiestsadist:

    Since cutting my hair short, having my head scratched or my scalp rubbed, or even just a hair ruffle is enough to make me trail off mid-sentence with my eyes rolled back. I apparently also get the same “But WHY? Why’d you stop?” face that cats do when whoever’s doing it stops.

    Yes! I also do *exactly* this. Down to the trailing off mid-sentence. It causes hours of amusement for my friends, who tell me regularly, “Don’t worry, if you’re planning to take over the world without us, we can stop you.”
    I agree, it’s lovely to know that other people have such a strong (good) reaction to hair ruffles, I thought I was very, very unusual.


    @Janine:
    Fish puns? Really? I cod have done without them… (Sorry.)

  35. 35
    dianne

    Stockholm braves coldest June weather in 84 years:

    Global warming disturbing the gulf stream?

  36. 36
    dianne

    Fish puns? Really? I cod have done without them… (Sorry.)

    My attempts at making puns usually flounder.

  37. 37
    Walton

    Jason Thibeault can still fuck right off. Happiestsadist, a survivor whom he triggered, and I, who actually did leave him a reasonable comment, are still in perma-moderation over there. I’m convinced the only reason he eventually listened to Josh is because Josh is another guy. Oh, and yeah, he banned Ginmar for giving him hell, as he richly deserved.

    Really? That makes me sad. I previously had a high opinion of him because he was the only blogger here who made the effort to write about the Canadian government’s Refugee Exclusion Bill, an issue which otherwise flew under the radar.

    But I’ve all but abandoned Freethoughtblogs anyway.

  38. 38
    Nick Gotts

    Clucking hell! This is beakcoming ridiculous!

  39. 39
    SQB

    I’ll just pretend not to be herring this.

  40. 40
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    I hope the people who like to shout “Language police!” when anyone points to the harmful effects of their sexist/racist/homophobic language aren’t reading.

    They aren’t. Not with any comprehension, anyway.

  41. 41
    dianne

    Let’s try to fill this thread up before PZ wakes up and posts something else so we can have two endless threads in a row. Quick, someone say something controversial! Aw, it’ll never work. We’re all such agreeable types.

  42. 42
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Anchovy!

    I did bad.

  43. 43
    pentatomid

    Quick! Must think of funny fish or bird related pun… No… Can’t… Something… With… Lamprey… I give up.

  44. 44
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Dianne:
    More controversy? I’m sure we can come up with moray than enough fish puns to fill the Thread.

  45. 45
    Aratina Cage

    @old man jenkins ॐ from the last subthread

    I realize the same compulsion appears to have driven Truth Machine to finally hate Pharyngula — assuming that was him over in the Slimepit as “forced to be anonymous”

    I really don’t think that was him. FTBA said things that went against what Truth Machine had said on Pharyngula. One of the biggest “Is it OK to call people cunts” threads was Truth Machine (no) versus multiple people (yes) for hundreds of comments. Would he really throw all that away and jump to the other side to disingenuously throw a halo over Abbie Smith’s crown? I doubt it. There was so much doubletalk from FTBA that I just couldn’t see Truth Machine engaging in it.

    Besides the lack of moral principles of FTBA, why would Truth Machine pick a nym that is so fucking stupid? “Forced to be anonymous”? Really, by whom? No one, and certainly no god, was forcing FTBA to be anonymous. Nobody was forcing FTBA to be anonymous. I do not believe Truth Machine would have had the slightest hesitation in using his Pharyngula nym at ERV. No, I think it was probably someone who usually hates others being anonymous who was too cowardly to put up their real name behind the defence of Abbie Smith’s disparagement of Rebecca and everyone else. Someone who knows that he has a lot to lose by publicly supporting and even arguing for the unchecked defamation of women using sexist slurs.

    If you want to point to a sometimes tenacious OM who turned traitor and became one with the slimes, look to Windy. I hope she’s happy wallowing in the pit.

  46. 46
    pentatomid

    More controversy? I’m sure we can come up with moray than enough fish puns to fill the Thread.

    I agree. Let’s see how this plaice out.

  47. 47
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Not a pun but,for some reason, this came to mind. Warning, this is rather disturbing. It is the horse head scene from The Tin Drum.

  48. 48
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    If you want to point to a sometimes tenacious OM who turned traitor and became one with the slimes, look to Windy. I hope she’s happy wallowing in the pit.

    That is what happened to her?

    sigh…

  49. 49
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    AE:

    If you want to point to a sometimes tenacious OM who turned traitor and became one with the slimes, look to Windy. I hope she’s happy wallowing in the pit.

    That’s where Windy has been? Jesus Christ.

  50. 50
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    AE:

    They aren’t. Not with any comprehension, anyway.

    That would require us to buy the premise that “speciesism” is comparable to those oppressions.

  51. 51
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Pentatomid:

    I agree. Let’s see how this plaice out.

    I hope salmon else steps in and contributes– I suck at punning.

  52. 52
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    These puns are getting really crappie.

  53. 53
    Aratina Cage

    Yes, I’m positive that the Windy who comments in the slimepit on occasion is our old Windy. And yes, there does seem to be some grudge she holds against some or all of us here that is eating her up, which is too bad because she was a regular Pharyngulite only a few years back and often quite informative.

  54. 54
    dianne

    These puns are getting really crappie.

    Well, if you’re going to carp at every little detail…

  55. 55
    consciousness razor

    I hope salmon else steps in and contributes– I suck at punning.

    Owl not have any part in it. I’m happy to be perched here, watching the fish-punning flock get schooled.

  56. 56
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    These puns are getting really crappie.

    Don’t be koi, Daisy. Tell us how you really feel.

  57. 57
  58. 58
    pentatomid

    Owl not have any part in it. I’m happy to be perched here, watching the fish-punning flock get schooled.

    Oh yeah? Well, we’re not fin-ished yet!

  59. 59
  60. 60
  61. 61
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    wOOt always did point us to the platonic ideal of boobies.

    (Sorry. Sooner or later, I had to snark on SallyStrange. She knows she had it coming.)

  62. 62
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ms. Daisy Cutter,

    ““Religious liberty”” is, of course, the liberty to force other people to obey the laws you ascribe to your deity. This interpretation was openly embraced by Scots-Irish emigrants, as explained in David Hackett Fischer’s Albion’s Seed,

    It might be a fine book — the reviewers complain that it’s not racist enough — but that website you linked to, IHR, is a neo-Nazi site.

    http://www.adl.org/holocaust/ihr.asp
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

    I realize you didn’t notice, and you’ll want to avoid doing it in the future, so please acknowledge this.

  63. 63
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    That would require us to buy the premise that “speciesism” is comparable to those oppressions.

    No, it would require only that you recognize the harmful effects of actions. You can then proceed to say or show that those harms or those being harmed aren’t important to you (or important enough for you to change your actions), but that’s a separate step.

  64. 64
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Pentatomid:

    Oh yeah? Well, we’re not fin-ished yet!

    I dunno, whale* I am enjoying myself, I feel a little gill-ty for dominating the thread like this when we could be discussing much more serious topics.

    *I’ve branched out into sea mammals. DEAL WITH IT.

  65. 65
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Yes, I’m positive that the Windy who comments in the slimepit on occasion is our old Windy. And yes, there does seem to be some grudge she holds against some or all of us here that is eating her up, which is too bad because she was a regular Pharyngulite only a few years back and often quite informative.

    Agreed on all points. It’s strange. I can’t imagine, given the discussions she participated in here, that the Slimepit could be intellectually stimulating for her, but I guess she gets something out of it.

  66. 66
    strange gods before me ॐ

    SC and Aratina,

    I still find it virtually impossible to believe that was him. He was a consistent advocate for feminism here.

    I really don’t think that was him. FTBA said things that went against what Truth Machine had said on Pharyngula.

    Alright. I’ll take that in mind and go have another look soon.

  67. 67
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    #62. Acknowledged and retracted.

  68. 68
    consciousness razor

    *I’ve branched out into sea mammals. DEAL WITH IT.

    Sea what I’m talking about? Maybe thistle sound crabby, but ewe trout this out like it eel make things better. Wren will it ever end?

  69. 69
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Consciousness Razor:

    Now you’re just trying to get my goat, with no just caws. Well, toucan play at that game.

  70. 70
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @ Cipher –

    I am **very** interested in your research on the masculinity projects of roman slave men. Is there any way I can guarantee that I’ll get a chance to read your paper beyond never missing a TET post again?

  71. 71
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Seconding Crip Dyke @ #70. I’m also really interested.

  72. 72
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    There is a punning theme here.

    The Perfect Kiss-New Order

    I Love A Man In Uniform-Gang Of Four

    Southern Mark Smith-The Jazz Butcher

    My Human Gets Me Blues-Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band

  73. 73
  74. 74
    michaelmeyerson

    Being a good bird punster is nothing to crow about.

  75. 75
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    I third the interest in Cipher’s paper.

  76. 76
  77. 77
    consciousness razor

    Well, toucan play at that game.

    Ibex not. Not sure what game the otters are playing, but as far as rhino, they are ray bunch of cheetahs.

  78. 78
    michaelmeyerson

    On to fish puns, I posted here just for the halibut.

  79. 79
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    I fourth the interest in Cipher’s paper.

    And I *would* say that I’ve haddock enough of these puns, but they’re too damn fun for that.

  80. 80
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    CR:

    Maybe thistle sound crabby, but ewe trout this out like it eel make things better.

    I can’t believe that you have the gull to say that to me!

  81. 81
  82. 82
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Walleye don’t know any!

  83. 83
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    My floppy-armed plush flamingo is cute and all, but it has to share with its other limpkin.

  84. 84
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    CR:

    Ibex not. Not sure what game the otters are playing, but as far as rhino, they are ray bunch of cheetahs.

    +1 for pun overload.

    Minnows 1 for too few fish puns.

  85. 85
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I tip my hat to HappiestSadist, Setar, Pteryxx, and others who are highlighting SGBM’s pattern of abusive behaviors.

    Ms. Daisy Cutter, I understand how my words could be triggering to you, and I’m not going to deny your experience,

    but the factual claims here are based upon a false assumption of intimacy. I’m not betraying you, because there is no trust between us.

    Again, I understand how you make the conflation and I’m not denying that my words could be triggering. But that said,

    Guess what?

    the partner … his partner … his partner’s …the partner

    Nobody here is my partner.

    I am not on anyone’s side here.

    I don’t owe any of you “acceptance”.

    A stranger on the internet, who hangs out at one website, responding to your bullshit, cannot be abusive to you. It is impossible. You have distorted the meaning of abuse to serve your dishonest ends. You are a liar.

    I cannot be abusive to you, because we have no relationship; we are not even friends.

    Personally, I don’t have the energy to deal with their bullshit.

    That is one of those self-contradictory statements, like “this sentence is false.”

    I come here to enjoy myself, as well as to learn. I don’t learn jack shit from assholes, at least not the lessons they want me to take away.

    That’s irrational of you.

    And save every hyperlink in which you were meeeeeean to him just so he can throw it in your face when he feels like monopolizing the thread.

    This is a lie. I don’t complain about people being mean to me. What I care about is people lying about me. Since you’re lying about me right here, yeah, I might refer back to it later.

    FWIW, HappiestSadist is vegetarian and actually does care about animal suffering.

    That’s interesting to know. I’m sure HappiestSadist will care to be informed that consuming dairy causes suffering and premature death. Likewise eggs.

    And food policers are totes rational, right?

    That of course depends on whether the arguments they’re making are empirically and logically sound. It has nothing to do with whether they take a particular subject more seriously than you do.

    You must be aware that people who have somewhat different ethics than you can be rational in their promotion of such, right?

    Which must be the fault of the people who don’t like to be bullied. Because, again, the food policers are totes rational.

    Again, Giliell made a claim about facts. I responded to that claim. If you don’t think that certain people should be allowed to respond to certain claims about facts, then you’re being irrational.

    No shit, eh? What a friend of mine who’s what used to be called a consummate countrywoman calls “citiots.” Pace Janine, not all city dwellers are citiots, but the ones who are… goddamn.

    You know not everyone who’s vegan has never lived or worked on a farm, right?

    #62. Acknowledged and retracted.

    Thanks!

  86. 86
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Can anyone reading here who lives in MA, RI, or NH and who doesn’t already have cats adopt a very cute kitteh?

  87. 87
    consciousness razor

    I can’t believe that you have the gull to say that to me!

    Oiseaux the fuss about? If mule just admit to weaseling, I clam stop bat any thyme.

  88. 88
    RichardAustin

    Ignore the audio (I think it’s some song, but I muted it early on so don’t know), but it’s important that people remember.

    What does it take to be the kind of person who walks in front of a line of advancing tanks?

    From the Wiki I linked earlier:

    The Communist Party of China (CPC) forbids discussion of the Tiananmen Square protests, and has taken measures to block or censor information. Textbooks have little, if any, information related to the protests. Following the protests, officials banned controversial films and books, and shut down a large number of newspapers. Within a year, 12 percent of all newspapers, 8 percent of publishing companies, 13 percent of social science periodicals and more than 150 films were banned or shut down. In addition, the government also announced it had seized 32 million contraband books and 2.4 million video and audio cassettes. Access to media and internet resources on the subject are restricted or blocked by censors.

    The party’s official stance towards the incident is that the use of force was necessary in order to control a ‘political disturbance’ and helped to ensure the stability necessary economic success. Chinese leaders, including Presidents Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao, reiterate this line when asked about the question by foreign press.

    Public memory of the Tiananmen Square protests has been suppressed by the authorities since 1989. Print media containing reference to the protests must be consistent with the government’s version of events. Presently, many Chinese citizens are reluctant to speak about the protests due to potential repercussions. However, some individuals do speak out, such as Ding Zilin of the Tiananmen Mothers organization. Youth in China are generally unaware of the events that took place, and cannot recognize symbols such as tank man, or even the date 4 June itself.

    Internet searches of ’4 June’ or ‘Tiananmen Square’ return censored results or cuts the server connection temporarily. Specific web pages with select keywords are censored, while other websites, such as those of overseas Chinese democracy movements, are blocked wholesale. The censorship, however, has been inconsistent – with many sites being blocked, unblocked, and re-blocked over the years, including YouTube, Wikipedia, and Flickr. In addition, the policy is much more stringent with Chinese-language sites than foreign-language ones. In January 2006, Google agreed to censor their mainland China site to remove information about Tiananmen and other subjects considered ‘sensitive’ by the authorities. Google withdrew its cooperation on censorship in January 2010.

    Leading up to and during the event’s 20th anniversary on 4 June 2009, party authorities increased security around the square. Members of the Public Security Bureau and the People’s Armed Police were present at the square in uniform along with several hundred plain-clothes officers. Journalists were denied entry to the Square. Those who attempted to film at the Square or interview dissidents were briefly detained. The anniversary also saw the shut down of global social-networking sites in China, as well as increased policing of dissidents. No protests were to be tolerated on this occasion. Deborah Kuo, “Tiananmen student leader vows to try again to return to China”. The China Post.

  89. 89
    Ingdigo Jump

    Annoyed: SGBM I wanted to sit out but some of your last stuff IMHO is falling under or skatting near abuse or bullying. Frankly I think you need to think about what your goals are here and what consequences your tactics are having. Maybe I’m wrong but to me you seem to be illustrating my criticism of virtue and consequentalist ethics…I don’t see the difference between your behavior and someone who needs to crusade because virtue compells them. I’m not saying to reconsider ethics or values or facts but your tactics are clearly ineffective at best…at worst they afe turning people off to what you say in topics beyond this…which is a great negative consequence because you have things of value to say. When people tell you that they’re finding you abusive or bulling and you respond by disagreeing with them that feels like you’re NOT treating them as people. Its a minor venue but on this battlefeild it seems to me that you are valuing ideals over people. I give this criticism necause I don’t like people feeling unsafe or anxious in this space or having feelings needlessly hurt (again I say NEEDLESSLY…this is about reconsidering strategy). I fear that your pushing the tone of discussion and the culture here into one where people are going to have to choose between leaving or ignoring you, both of which I think would be to everyones loss.

  90. 90
  91. 91
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Okay, first

    Fincke posted some videos and the first one had me crying.

    As for punny songs, Pete Shelley had the best one, like, ever. Accurate, activist, funny, in your face, transparent and transformative.

    How can it be possible that “We are Family,” “Raining Men,” and “Crimson & Clover” get more recognition as pro-queer songs than Shelley’s masterpiece I will never know.

    Of course, that said, I don’t need to be convinced about queer rights and Crimson & Clover sucks me in every time, but still. Shelley just doesn’t get his due.

  92. 92
    Walton

    That’s interesting to know. I’m sure HappiestSadist will care to be informed that consuming dairy causes suffering and premature death. Likewise eggs.

    Hmmm. The link offers specific examples of abusive dairy farming practices in the United States, and I agree with you that the maltreatment of animals on factory farms is an atrocity (and should be addressed by legislation). But is the consumption of milk and eggs from known free range sources, in which the animals are treated humanely, necessarily wrong in itself?

    (I don’t dispute that a vegan diet is probably the ideal. But I’m ovo-lacto-vegetarian rather than vegan, simply for practical reasons; I have a long history of problems with eating and nutrition, I live with a family of omnivores and am the only vegetarian in my household, and I have found that I can’t sustain myself on a vegan diet without more difficulty and expense than I can afford. I’ve had to compromise as best I can.)

  93. 93
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    SG: I really like it how you’re saying that you get how your behaviour is triggering to possibly many people, but you can’t be bothered to change it. SUCH A FIERCE WARRIOR AGAINST OPPRESSION! it’s also really interesting how you’re using the fact that abuse survivors are triggered by your shit to write them off as crazy. Especially as they’re mostly women. Because that’s not ableist or misogynist at all!

    And hey, thanks for the deep, personal concern for my health and well-being. I mean, especially as you yourself acknowledge that we’re mostly all strangers here. That’s not at all an inappropriately personal interest to have, and definitely not a way to concern-troll and food-police anyone. I’d say I’m also concerned about some health choices you seem to make, but really, your body, your choice, though I wish you’d be less of a turd to others.

    Also, you might want to consider efficacy in your food-policing. Rational or not (and that’s really up for debate), shaming and policing the diet choices of others simply does not work. It’s profoundly irrational to keep using tactics that not only don’t work, but backfire. You’re not telling brave truths that The Man just wants suppressed. We’re all adults here, and aware of how best to live in our own bodies, and also aware of the pros and cons of animal-derived foods.

  94. 94
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Walton @ #92: You don’t have to justify your diet or any other part of your health to anyone. I know we’ve had problems in the past, but seriously. You know better than some internet stranger how best to maintain the Walton-machine.

  95. 95
    Ingdigo Jump

    Here’s hoping we develop vat meat to render the issue moot :P

    Out of curiosity though what’s your view on replacing meat from vertabrate soueces with invertabrate sources? Is the deaths to insects still unacceptable? (Not being snarky)

  96. 96
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Crip Dyke, don’t forget Glad To Be Gay by the Tom Robinson Band.

  97. 97
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Ing @ #95: I am very pro vat meat.

    Overall, I think seeing as universal veg*anism is not the likeliest of prospects for a bunch of reasons, I think invertebrate sources would be better. I still wouldn’t eat them personally, but I don’t eat critters.

  98. 98
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    *struggling NOT to ask vegan-related question*

    *bites tongue*

    Any runners out there? Or anyone who knows how best to improve one’s lung capacity?

    It seems like I’m out of breath before I’ve really started running. WTF.

  99. 99
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Okay, I promised myself I’d stay out of the current bullshit, but:

    … maintain the Walton-machine.

    Made me smile.

  100. 100
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    In a much more light note, here are 2 Nice Girls doing The Sweet Postcard.

  101. 101
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    But is the consumption of milk and eggs from known free range sources, in which the animals are treated humanely, necessarily wrong in itself?

    Walton, I think you in particular would find Eating Animals of interest. I don’t agree with every word, of course, but he addresses these questions very well.

  102. 102
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Holy Heck, Janine –

    I have missed that one literally all my life. I really don’t think I’ve ever heard that song before. If I’d heard it after 1990 I’m sure I would have remembered. I’m pretty confident I would have remembered after 1985, though I can’t say that’s a rigidly certain.

    But even before that, could I have heard this and not have even the vaguest memory? I don’t think so. This is a great song. It reminds me of John Lennon’s “Crying Inside” but in reverse: the song speaks about being “glad to be gay” and yet is clearly angry as f*. I love the opening about not believing that it “happens here” that police raid bars for no reason, lining customers up against the wall, knocking ‘em down, kicking them for resisting arrest when they fall.

    Damn, powerful stuff.

  103. 103
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Yeah, i’m trying to stay out too, but i’ve had enough food policing in my life already.

    Not everyone can eat everything *sigh*.

  104. 104
    RichardAustin

    Illuminata:

    Probably useless, but I change to an entirely different kind of breathing when I’m running. I don’t “huff and puff” like a lot of people seem to do. I’d say it’s probably “shallower” than a normal breath but on about the same rhythm. It doesn’t hurt my throat the way constant huffing and puffing does, and I can run long distances doing it.

    I’m not sure improving capacity is what your after so much as efficiency, which means aerobic exercise. Unfortunately, I think it’s just something you build up – or don’t – over time.

    (I ran cross country in high school and it’s still the “easiest” method of aerobic exercise for me. Getting on a treadmill for a half-hour is kind of my default “I need to burn energy” activity.)

  105. 105
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    What? “I”s are supposed to be capitalized?

    Whoops.

  106. 106
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Sigh. And I’d done so well with the a href tags, then forget to close an i tag? Clearly I failed to make myself a pot of tea today. But it’s possible I’ll be awake by 4.

    Okay, really have a lot of work to do today, so kick me off TET if I come back and I don’t clearly preface any comments with, “I’m just here while I’m eating”.

    Mustering will to stick the flounce…

  107. 107
    rorschach

    Agree that it probably wasn’t TM in the slimepit. But windy it was. Her decline was visible on FB.

  108. 108
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    The Tom Robinson Band was bare known in the US. The main reason why I heard of them is because 2,4,6,8 Motorway was included in a Rhino compilation of Brit punk singles.

    But still, I have to agree with you, Crip Dyke, that I am rather surprised that that impassioned and angry song was not more well known.

  109. 109
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I give this criticism necause I don’t like people feeling unsafe or anxious in this space or having feelings needlessly hurt…I fear that your pushing the tone of discussion and the culture here into one where people are going to have to choose between leaving or ignoring you, both of which I think would be to everyones loss.

    What’s going on here is beyond bizarre. And the dynamic has somehow taken on a life of its own – it’s unrelenting.

  110. 110
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    d(thunk) over d(MQG) = SQRRAWK! @ #103: Truth. I’m lucky as hell in that I can eat damn near anything (except lots of sesame, some pineapple or any kiwifruit), and have enough food access to make my head spin. But this is a function of (in this case) health, privilege and a (well-off) urban environment surrounded by agriculture for me.

  111. 111
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    It doesn’t hurt my throat the way constant huffing and puffing does

    And this is exactly what’s happening. I was told by a marathon-running friend to do a take on lamaze breathing – that is, two quick inhales for every exhale. It seems to work okay for a little while, but then something starts burning like heart burn, but really cold heart burn. I know that makes no sense, but that’s what it feels like.

    I think you’re right that it’s something that builds up – or not – over time. Which is why i asked – is there a way to build it up over and above simply continuing to train. And, what if it doesn’t build up?

    (rhetorical – I’m just JAQing off ;) )

  112. 112
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    The typo monster strikes again.

    L Y

  113. 113
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    @ Sarahface, Happiestsadist
    I’ve found that that’s actually a very common thing, especially among women.

  114. 114
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Oh, hell no. I ain’t leaving if you’re going to bring 2NiceGirls into it and citing any song other than the “women’s music festival”-type song, EVAH.

    I love the Gits, like the Cramps, bang my head to L7 & Tribe8. Bikini kill rocks my world, and I wanna be Joan Jett when I grow up. Dyke rock is much more my thing than Lavender Jane Loves Women, but Last 10 Bucks is just plain *awesome*. Even better than anything by Phranc.

  115. 115
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    My lungs and throat are fine when I run hard, mostly. A little huffy, but tolerable.

    It’s the racing heart that takes forever to slow down again that bugs me.

  116. 116
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    I don’t see how anything that SGBM has done is transgressive to what is standard here.

    What I see is one commenter making fairly explicit arguments sprinkled with insults, and other commenters responding, not to the arguments, but to a perception that they are being abused, and these are also sprinkled with insults.

    If I’m not mistaken, all claims of abuse are empirically verifiable*. From what I see, claiming that these incidences are abuse impoverishes the meaning of that word. But maybe I’m wrong. If we are going to insist on discussing these events as abuse, the least we could do is to come to some agreement as to what constitutes abuse on a forum like this one, where rancor is transacted as a matter of course.

    *Unless SGBM is indulging in extra-FtB communication.

  117. 117
    SkepticTantrika

    This looks distinctly unhealthy.

  118. 118
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Crip Dyke, I thought that $10 would be just a little too obvious.

    I should not have let that stop me.

    *grins*

  119. 119
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    My lungs and throat are fine when I run hard, mostly. A little huffy, but tolerable.

    It’s the racing heart that takes forever to slow down again that bugs me.

    My heart recovers very quickly. My lungs and my knees – my poor knees! I have unhealthy knees – do not. I think perhaps the fact that I smoke enough to keep a california “medicinal” grower in business for decades might have something to do with it.

    I can only hope that this is an issue that will diminish over time because goddamn I hate not being able to do something I couldn’t do before the massive weight-loss.

  120. 120
    dianne

    Here’s hoping we develop vat meat to render the issue moot :P

    Unfortunately, step one of this plan will have to be developing an in vitro growth medium that doesn’t depend on fetal/newborn calf serum to provide nutrients. I think there are some in production, but they’re not standard yet.

  121. 121
    consciousness razor

    From what I see, claiming that these incidences are abuse impoverishes the meaning of that word.

    Well now you’re just language-policing. And of course all this talk of “policing” isn’t the least bit hyperbolic.

  122. 122
    Ida Know

    If I just posted two comments with the same thing, sorry. I can’t seem to see my posts today.

  123. 123
    RichardAustin

    And this is exactly what’s happening. I was told by a marathon-running friend to do a take on lamaze breathing – that is, two quick inhales for every exhale. It seems to work okay for a little while, but then something starts burning like heart burn, but really cold heart burn. I know that makes no sense, but that’s what it feels like.

    I think you’re right that it’s something that builds up – or not – over time. Which is why i asked – is there a way to build it up over and above simply continuing to train. And, what if it doesn’t build up?

    Yeah, the lamaze breathing sounds about right. I typically inhale on two steps and exhale (almost wrote out-hale) on two, but the inhale is really two breaths and the exhale one long one.

    I’m thinking you might just need to back down a bit to let yourself get more acclimated. How long have you been running regularly? What altitude/temp are you generally running at? I think most people spend a few months, for example, ramping up to a 5k from “zero”, so that might be a decent measure for whether you’re rushing things or not.

    You also might try getting a physical or having a doctor test your lungs. Maybe get a personal blood oxygen sensor (though they’re probably expensive) to test yourself while you’re running. If you’ve had bronchitis or TB or even just a lot of particulate matter (smoking, working in a machine shop, living in a high smog area, etc.), there could be something else going on.

    (The “talk to your doctor” is always a safe cop-out :P )

  124. 124
    Ida Know

    OK, this is weird. My post apologizing for my double post showed up, but the double post did not.

  125. 125
    dianne

    so kick me off TET if I come back and I don’t clearly preface any comments with, “I’m just here while I’m eating”.

    I’m just here waiting for the EMR from Hell to load enough for me to do something useful with it. Seriously, it hasn’t loaded the page I need in the time it’s taken me to write this. I may be back with a fish related pun if it doesn’t come through soon.

  126. 126
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Annoyed: SGBM I wanted to sit out but some of your last stuff IMHO is falling under or skatting near abuse or bullying.

    Ing, you see it that way because you’re looking at it from an in-group perspective. You didn’t watch when Caine and her clique bullied me and Algernon for months to try to make us leave TET, because we were talking about art, for fuck’s sake, in ways that she didn’t enjoy.

    Frankly I think you need to think about what your goals are here

    My goals here are the same as they’ve been for years: to point out bullshit and not be bullied into shutting up. People who don’t like it are of course welcome to ignore me.

    and what consequences your tactics are having. Maybe I’m wrong but to me you seem to be illustrating my criticism of virtue and consequentalist ethics

    You’re confused, Ing. If the consequences I’m causing are bad from a consequentialist standpoint — as they may well be — then that just means I’m not living up to how I believe I ought to act.

    And that’s probably true. But like I said, I’m hateful and bitter, motivated by ressentiment; emotionally it’s a stronger driver than my intellectual commitment to consequentialism.

    When people tell you that they’re finding you abusive or bulling and you respond by disagreeing with them that feels like you’re NOT treating them as people.

    That’s mistaken. I am treating them like people who have lied about me.

    They can feel however they want about me. I’ve already acknowledged that I’m not in a position to decide whether I’m bullying or not. As far as I am concerned, I am just fighting back. And I won’t stop.

    As for the claims about abuse, those however are objectively false claims. They rely on a false presumption of intimacy.

    There’s a real reason why praise-alternated-with-coldness-or-harsh-criticism is a problem, Ing, when it takes place in intimate relationships. That reality should not be minimized by claiming that some stranger on the internet is equivalent.

    I am not obligated to treat anyone here with respect, acceptance, etc. Those things can’t be asked of a stranger. No one is entitled to that kind of treatment from a stranger.

    I fear that your pushing the tone of discussion and the culture here into one where people are going to have to choose between leaving or ignoring you,

    You’re naively optimistic here, Ing. The sniping goes on whether I respond to it or not. It has for years. They aren’t going to change. I am not going to stop responding.

    I understand what you’re saying, and you may well be right, but it’s personal for me. I care more about being lied about than most other things. That’s my personal failing, but I don’t think it’s going to change; I have no motivation to change it.

  127. 127
    Ida Know

    Oh hell, I give up. I was trying to post a Youtube link, to a video of Kip Adotta’s story-song consisting almost entirely of fish/water puns. It’s called Wet Dream. Anyone interested can go there and do a search.

  128. 128
    RichardAustin

    My heart recovers very quickly. My lungs and my knees – my poor knees! I have unhealthy knees – do not. I think perhaps the fact that I smoke enough to keep a california “medicinal” grower in business for decades might have something to do with it.

    I can only hope that this is an issue that will diminish over time because goddamn I hate not being able to do something I couldn’t do before the massive weight-loss.

    Ah, so, yeah, smoking pot still has downsides. Less risk of cancer than tobacco (IIRC), but still – heat and particles in lungs = damage and harder breathing. Maybe switch to vaporizing? That’s supposed to have the same effect but not be as damaging.

    I’d bet it’ll clear out at least to a point after a while. The knee thing, though – that’s more of a concern. If you’ve got bad knees, running may not be the best option. Maybe get a reclining exercise bike? Same lung problem, easier on the knees.

  129. 129
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    CR:

    And of course all this talk of “policing” isn’t the least bit hyperbolic.

    I guess you’re unfamiliar with the term in a feminist context. Many more examples here. Or in a a medical context.

  130. 130
    firstapproximation

    Hey, still alive. Just been busy.

    Just came across this:

    Montrealer Dennis Markuze pleads guilty to issuing Internet threats

    Dennis Markuze, 40, recently received the suspended 18-month sentence after he pleaded guilty to uttering threats toward eight people. The case was heard at the Montreal courthouse.

    Markuze, a resident of St. Laurent, was ordered to “abstain from participating in a social network, blog and discussion forum” as part of the sentence.

    “Since the therapy team at (Freedom House) does not have the competence necessary to make a psychiatric diagnosis, it seems to us that (Markuze) absolutely needs a follow up after he leaves the centre,” Proulx wrote.

    “He sometimes makes remarks that leave us perplexed.”

  131. 131
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    LDTR, I linked to that song already. Check #28.

  132. 132
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Bird puns? My tern!

  133. 133
    Nutmeg

    Illuminata:

    Any runners out there? Or anyone who knows how best to improve one’s lung capacity?

    I don’t run (asthma), but swimming really helps with my breathing. Despite the asthma, I have better-than-expected lung capacity and function for my size and age. And swimming is pretty easy on the body but burns tons of calories.

    I have tendonitis so I can’t swim at all right now. But it’s definitely my favourite way to exercise. If you’re up for improving your running by doing something completely different, try swimming.

  134. 134
    strange gods before me ॐ

    SG: I really like it how you’re saying that you get how your behaviour is triggering to possibly many people, but you can’t be bothered to change it. SUCH A FIERCE WARRIOR AGAINST OPPRESSION!

    Yeah, I’m not oppressing you, HappiestSadist. It’s not my fault if you can’t tell the difference between a stranger on the internet and an intimate partner.

    It’s unfortunate, but it’s not my fault. If it bothers you that I’m acknowledging I’m aware it can be triggering, then I can go back to not acknowledging it.

    I’m not sure which is more aggravating. Just let me know.

    it’s also really interesting how you’re using the fact that abuse survivors are triggered by your shit to write them off as crazy.

    This is, of course, a total lie. I have not written off anyone as crazy.

    And hey, thanks for the deep, personal concern for my health and well-being.

    I don’t think I said anything about your health and well-being, HappiestSadist. The article I linked for you was not about your health, it was about the health and well-being of dairy cattle.

    Also, you might want to consider efficacy in your food-policing. Rational or not (and that’s really up for debate), shaming and policing the diet choices of others simply does not work.

    It’s possible. Again, though, I am really more motivated by false statements like the one Giliell made earlier. I wanted to address that specifically; people wanted to respond.

    It’s profoundly irrational to keep using tactics that not only don’t work, but backfire.

    I don’t see evidence that they backfire.

    Sexists also claim that being criticized by feminists makes them feel even more anti-feminist, which may be true, but it’s quite a stretch to say that they actually result in more anti-feminist actions than the sexist would have engaged in otherwise.

    I’m familiar with people saying “I’m going to go eat a big steak to spite you!” People say that even when they’re not being criticized; they say it just because they met a vegan. And they might even go do it that day, but again I don’t see any evidence to suggest that it causes a lasting negative change in behavior.

    We’re all adults here, and aware of how best to live in our own bodies,

    Again, I’ve never said anything about health.

    and also aware of the pros and cons of animal-derived foods.

    While people may be intellectually aware of things, I also know that changing behavior requires confronting people repeatedly with the intensity of the consequences of their actions. We can know things for years and years without ever acting upon them. Change requires being reminded.

  135. 135
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    “He sometimes makes remarks that leave us perplexed.”

    ya think?

  136. 136
    rorschach

    Oh hi feyny, hope all is well !…the page is not loading for me, maybe we broked it.

  137. 137
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ing,

    Out of curiosity though what’s your view on replacing meat from vertabrate soueces with invertabrate sources? Is the deaths to insects still unacceptable? (Not being snarky)

    It should be avoided, since it is possible that they have some internal experiences. But it does appear that eating insects is probably better than eating vertebrates.

  138. 138
    Ida Know

    @131: sorry, Janine! Didn’t catch it.

  139. 139
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Illuminatus! Vs Atlas Shrugged

    This amused me!

    Written by a sane man who believed he was insane.

    Written by an insane woman who believed she was sane.

  140. 140
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    If you’ve got bad knees, running may not be the best option. Maybe get a reclining exercise bike?

    I’m deeply in love with Spinning, but Ive never tried the reclining bike.

    I think my knees are in the same boat as my lungs. I spent all of my teenage years and the vasty majority of my 20′s morbidly obese. I’ve lost approx 130 lbs, but the damage that did to my joints is still there. It seems to get better as I go on, but I’m still worried that the damage I did to myself over that 18 or so years is permanent.

    That said, i’ve only been running about a month. So this could just be me worrying over nothing. But I’ve been hard core exercising for almost two years so i wasn’t expecting such a set back!

    Nutmeg – swimming is something that never occurred to me. My gym does have both an outdoor and an indoor pool . . . . hmmmmmmmmmmm

  141. 141
    Nick Gotts

    LILAPWL,

    I’m not, I think, one of those you consider has lied about you or tried to make you leave. Nor have I taken sides in the current feud; indeed, as I’ve said, I missed the start of it, and have deliberately avoided going back to find out who is lying about whom. But, since you admit it yourself, I will now say you are behaving in ways that are completely contrary to your expressed belief in consequentialism, by arguing obsessively about both your own motivation and that of others, primarily but by no means only Caine.

    I am not obligated to treat anyone here with respect, acceptance, etc. Those things can’t be asked of a stranger. No one is entitled to that kind of treatment from a stranger.

    Of course a stranger has lesser obligations than a friend; but they do have some; and you are not a complete stranger to the other regulars here – either those you are feuding with, or the bystanders. You say people can ignore you; that’s plain dishonest. Even if they killfile you, others reply to you, and the constant ill-feeling infects the whole thread. I therefore request that you stop it; preferably by taking a break from TET to allow feelings to cool. If you really can’t, rather than won’t, then you should seek professional help.

  142. 142
    Walton

    life is like an old man pitbull jenkins with strange gods before me*, check your email.

    (*I couldn’t decide which ‘nym to use, so I used them all.)

  143. 143
    consciousness razor

    I guess you’re unfamiliar with the term in a feminist context. Many more examples here. Or in a a medical context.

    I’m familiar, but I’d rather not have the meaning stretched so much that nearly any discussion of ethics* could be considered a form of “policing.” It’s a complicated subject, and I know there aren’t perfect solutions which would work for everyone. This isn’t news to anyone, and like it or not, it doesn’t mean the conversation ends there.

    *Note that I’m not talking about how people should manage their dietary health. If the focus would shift, just for one minute, away from people and onto food non-human animals, I would be very surprised.

    ———

    Something completely different, from faux-news:

    Did aliens or God create the human race, asks Ridley Scott in ‘Prometheus’

    *barf*

  144. 144
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    and have deliberately avoided going back to find out who is lying about whom

    Of course. I mean, of what importance is that? You can always single out one party for criticism and tell them if they don’t change their behavior in the way you suggest they should get professional help.

    Of course a stranger has lesser obligations than a friend; but they do have some; and you are not a complete stranger to the other regulars here

    Funny – I’d think people’s obligations to their online friends would include, if they think that friend has behaved strangely or badly, contacting said friend privately to ask about it and not condescendingly joining a public group attack. But that’s just me. You evidently don’t agree.

  145. 145
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Just flying past.

    Glad the punning has died down. I’d rather talk tits and boobies.

    …I’m going to ‘egret this post, A’wren’t I?

  146. 146
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Walton,

    But is the consumption of milk and eggs from known free range sources, in which the animals are treated humanely, necessarily wrong in itself?

    It never occurs in a way that wouldn’t be. Think about what it would mean for the animals’ welfare to be maximized. At a minimum would require not breeding them specifically for production, which is destructive to their bodies; almost no one does this. And it would also letting them live as long as possible while the living can be better than not, exactly what we try to do for pets. So there would be no slaughter except for real euthanasia. Absolutely no one does this. The animals are slaughtered when they stop producing.

    Giving economic support to these enterprises by buying milk and eggs means giving them the resources to keep more cows and chickens, and thus slaughter more cows and chickens. It results in premature death.

    I don’t dispute that a vegan diet is probably the ideal. But I’m ovo-lacto-vegetarian rather than vegan, simply for practical reasons;

    Comrade, you will do what is right when you are ready and able to do it. I know that. Don’t ask me what you, personally, should do; the sadists will eat me alive for even replying.

  147. 147
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    From firstapproximation’s (*waves!*) link:

    When Markuze entered the guilty pleas, prosecutor Suzanne Nault told the court that drugs were “the main concern” behind Markuze’s threats.

    “They seem to be the reason behind why the accused felt empowered to be the Voice of God in those kind of online discussions,” Nault said adding Markuze found employment after he finished his therapy.

    Okay, so they’re letting him plead out because he is (apparently) sober now. However, they don’t have a diagnosis for whatever the drugs/alcohol were exacerbating (since Markuze hasn’t seem a psychiatrist).

    I can’t help but think that this isn’t a good decision.

  148. 148
    RichardAustin

    Janine:

    Having read both, that was teh win.

    I’m stealing this and sharing it.

    *runs away giggling*

  149. 149
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    SG: Hey, it’s totally not a fucking lie that you’re claiming that I “can’t tell the difference between a stranger on the internet and an intimate partner.” Because what better way for some dude to claim that he’s totally in the right as a bully than to say “bitchez is crazy”? And you do this almost entirely to women. Funny, that. It’s interesting that you also pull the same thing every creep does when caught out as a creeper of “Strangers have no reasonable expectations” when that’s how fucking civilization works, you insufferable little skidmark. Guess what else, you fucking shitbasket: If you are repeatedly called out on the fact that your brave utter nonsense is being conveyed in a way that is actually harming survivors, by multiple people who both are and are not survivors, if you were a remotely decent person, and remotely sincere in your giving a shit about oppression (as opposed to using it as a vanity project), YOU’D FUCKING STOP.

    And your complaints that it’s just like sexists doubling down when feminists tell them to stop hurting people? Is the fucking corn on the shit sundae. Look in the fucking mirror.

    Though it is refreshing to know that you’re on record actually not caring about actual people’s health when it comes to the many downsides and impracticalities of a vegan diet.

    ” I also know that changing behavior requires confronting people repeatedly with the intensity of the consequences of their actions. ”
    Yes, I’m familiar with propaganda and The Big Lie.

  150. 150
    RichardAustin

    Illuminata:

    That said, i’ve only been running about a month. So this could just be me worrying over nothing. But I’ve been hard core exercising for almost two years so i wasn’t expecting such a set back!

    Muscular health and tone is different from cardiovascualr health and aerobic health. They all intertwine, of course, but generally focusing on one doesn’t necessarily help the others.

    Unless you’re swimming (like Nutmeg mentioned), which I think is like the “nuke ‘em from orbit” of exercises. Swimming’s also easy on the knees.

    (Seriously, I’d be worried about the joints. You might be looking at replacements anyway, given your history, so you don’t want to make the problem worse. Kudos for getting healthier.)

    (I don’t swim because of childhood trauma that I’m (very slowly) working through, but it’s something I actively want to get into because of the health benefits.)

  151. 151
    Inaji

    amblebury:

    Sorry to hear about Chas, Caine

    Hallo, Amblebury, thank you.

  152. 152
    Inaji

    AE:

    If I’m not mistaken, all claims of abuse are empirically verifiable*. From what I see, claiming that these incidences are abuse impoverishes the meaning of that word.

    I don’t think this is helping. I don’t much care about the ‘everyone in the universe must be a vegan!’ nonsense, it’s reiterated here way too often these days, same shit over and over.

    As I said earlier, SG has indulged in saying some very nasty (and untrue) things about me (and others) and apparently, it’s perfectly fine for him to do that. As an example, I saw quoted (I have SG killfiled) that I love and get a thrill out of hurting people. Now, if other people wish to assert that about me, I’ll pay attention – now would be the time to do it.

    I know that’s not true about myself, and while you may not characterize such unnecessary frothing as abuse, I think those of us who grew up with abuse, particularly the more insidious types, do characterize it that way. My two cents, which is worth exactly that.

  153. 153
    Walton

    Think about what it would mean for the animals’ welfare to be maximized. At a minimum would require not breeding them specifically for production, which is destructive to their bodies; almost no one does this. And it would also letting them live as long as possible while the living can be better than not, exactly what we try to do for pets. So there would be no slaughter except for real euthanasia. Absolutely no one does this. The animals are slaughtered when they stop producing.

    I hadn’t thought about those factors. (And I may well read the book SC recommended above, if I can track down a copy.)

    For the sake of consistency with my own expressed convictions, I suppose I should think about going vegan in the future. But it’s something I really can’t jump into yet.

    Also, check your email. :-)

  154. 154
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Oh, Caine I was sure I said my condolences for Chas but I apparently haven’t! I’m really sorry to hear it. I love your stories and photos about your pets, especially the Rat Adventures. Little One is sad about it too. =( Your the reason she doesn’t think rats are gross anymore and has asked for one as a pet.

    Pets are a sore topic in our house since the grandparents have therapy pets and Little One doesn’t understand why we can’t have one too. I’ve always been tempted to get her a fish to fed and watch but I worry that’s just going to make things worse.

  155. 155
    Inaji

    Richard, I miss swimming so much! I’d love to start swimming again, and I really need to check the Y schedule. However, even to get an hour or two in necessitates a 2 hour drive (round trip). Sometimes, living in the sticks sucks. I wish I had the money for one of those indoor lane ‘pools’. I have the room for one!

  156. 156
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Comrade, you will do what is right when you are ready and able to do it. I know that. Don’t ask me what you, personally, should do; the sadists will eat me alive for even replying.

    Both of these, for sure.

  157. 157
    rorschach

    Can I have the Pharyngula of circa 2008 back now ?

  158. 158
    Inaji

    JAL:

    Oh, Caine I was sure I said my condolences for Chas but I apparently haven’t! I’m really sorry to hear it. I love your stories and photos about your pets, especially the Rat Adventures. Little One is sad about it too. =( Your the reason she doesn’t think rats are gross anymore and has asked for one as a pet.

    Aaaaaaaaaaw, thank you and thank you to Little One. She’ll make a very fine rattie person one of these days. ♥

  159. 159
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I hadn’t thought about those factors. (And I may well read the book SC recommended above, if I can track down a copy.)

    Just in case you’re interested: it’s available from the UK Amazon Kindle store, and looks pretty cheap. (You don’t need an actual Kindle; you can just download the Kindle whatever and then get the book on your computer in a few seconds.)

  160. 160
    RichardAustin

    Caine:

    Richard, I miss swimming so much! I’d love to start swimming again, and I really need to check the Y schedule. However, even to get an hour or two in necessitates a 2 hour drive (round trip). Sometimes, living in the sticks sucks. I wish I had the money for one of those indoor lane ‘pools’. I have the room for one!

    I’ve never lived in a place with a pool (or easy access to one) until my current apartment, which has an outdoor heated saltwater pool. So, it’s renewed my interest in finally getting over the damned panic reaction I have to getting water in my eyes.

    All the more reason you should come visit :P

    (Sorry about Chas, btw :( It’s never fun to lose someone we care about, great or small.)

  161. 161
    Walton

    Can I have the Pharyngula of circa 2008 back now ?

    What, you want me to start being a libertarian again?

  162. 162
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Aaaaaaaaaaw, thank you and thank you to Little One. She’ll make a very fine rattie person one of these days. ♥

    Oh I’m sure she will. She has plans and has talked to Grandpa about building a cage/amusement park like the one you have. She’s also gotten to talking up rats to all the other kids when they come up. For instance they were talking about Ron’s rat in HP and she valiantly defended all rats and the reasons why being a rat is a good choice. XD


    Also, stupid typo in my comment. It’s suppose to be you’re the reason..

  163. 163
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Can I have the Pharyngula of circa 2008 back now ?

    Unfortunately not. :(

  164. 164
    jojo

    Delurking…

    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle. I don’t have much to offer for your lungs, but for your knees, have you been fitted for running shoes at a running store? I started running a few years ago and the shin and knee pain was a real problem for me. I was about to give up, but I was fitted with proper shoes and it made all the difference. Don’t hit the big box stores, try to find a small store that specializes in running. They should have a trend mill for you to run on so you can try the shoes out. You’ll also need to replace your shoes every 300-500 miles, which is expensive, but worth it.

    Relurking

  165. 165
    Inaji

    I’ve never lived in a place with a pool (or easy access to one) until my current apartment, which has an outdoor heated saltwater pool. So, it’s renewed my interest in finally getting over the damned panic reaction I have to getting water in my eyes.

    All the more reason you should come visit :P

    A saltwater pool? I’d never leave!* I take it swimming goggles don’t do the trick for you? (Good ones, mind, the ones that cost way too much money.)

    (Sorry about Chas, btw :( It’s never fun to lose someone we care about, great or small.)

    Thank you. ♥

    *Serious danger, that. I was HS varsity swim & dive team. I’ve loved swimming…always.

  166. 166
    Inaji

    JAL:

    Oh I’m sure she will. She has plans and has talked to Grandpa about building a cage/amusement park like the one you have. She’s also gotten to talking up rats to all the other kids when they come up. For instance they were talking about Ron’s rat in HP and she valiantly defended all rats and the reasons why being a rat is a good choice. XD

    YAY for her! Give her a hug for me.

  167. 167
    Cipher

    So, I overslept, then immediately got so sick to my stomach (although, possibly from being upset from oversleeping) that I could barely stand and had to curl up in bed for an hour. I now can’t decide whether I should tell my instructor I was too sick to go to class. ‘Cause I was, but only after I was already doomed not to make it.

  168. 168
    rorschach

    What, you want me to start being a libertarian again?

    Hm, ok, strike that thought.

  169. 169
    Rey Fox

    I wish I had the money for one of those indoor lane ‘pools’.

    Like an “endless pool”?

    Occasionally I force myself to swim laps at the rec center. I haven’t done it for a while because of my field work and last time I did, they had the lanes configured on the long dimension of the pool, 50 meters. Absolute killer.

  170. 170
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    YAY for her! Give her a hug for me.

    I did. She says she’s going to draw a rat picture for the nice flower rat lady to make her feel better. XD

  171. 171
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    J_A_L @ #170: That may possibly be the most adorable thing I’ve ever heard.

  172. 172
    Sili

    Walton made a funny.

    I don’t think I dare look up when I first came here (it was after the move to Scienceblogs at least, so no hipster for me). I think Pharyngula has been the biggest constant in my life for a long time now.

  173. 173
    Inaji

    Rey:

    Like an “endless pool”?

    Yep. I have more than enough space for one downstairs. The money, not so much.

  174. 174
    Inaji

    JAL:

    I did. She says she’s going to draw a rat picture for the nice flower rat lady to make her feel better. XD

    So sweet! :D

  175. 175
    NuMad

    I don’t know what porpoise all the puns made upstream have served.

    Caine,

    As an example, I saw quoted (I have SG killfiled) that I love and get a thrill out of hurting people. Now, if other people wish to assert that about me, I’ll pay attention – now would be the time to do it.

    I really don’t know how reasonable it could ever be to assert that kind of thing about other people’s very emotions just based on public comments on a blog.

    Even if it was obvious that you did deliberately try to just plain hurt somebody, that wouldn’t say anything about your emotions and inclinations about it.

    So I feel that it’s at least one degree removed from what’s warranted, let alone useful, to assert things about. And evidence? Come on.

  176. 176
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    I did. She says she’s going to draw a rat picture for the nice flower rat lady to make her feel better. XD

    D’awwww, that’s adorable.

  177. 177
    rorschach

    May I suggest to JT Eberhard to go back to blogging ? Making a blog post out of every time he bans a commenter (and calls them names like “sleuth”, classy) is fucked up. I can’t imagine that this is the kind of contribution FtB had in mind when they got him on board. Pathetic pre-puberty pissing contest.

  178. 178
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    As I said earlier, SG has indulged in saying some very nasty (and untrue) things about me (and others) and apparently, it’s perfectly fine for him to do that. As an example, I saw quoted (I have SG killfiled) that I love and get a thrill out of hurting people.

    Nasty comments have been flying both ways, some of which are unverifiable (like the one aimed at you*). SG has been very explicit about nasty things that have been said about him and have demonstrated that they are not true, when that can be demonstrated.

    I think those of us who grew up with abuse, particularly the more insidious types, do characterize it that way.

    I don’t question that. I just see that the anti-SG camp is participating in exactly the same behaviors that they regard as abuse. This kind of behavior has been standard here for some time, but only is called abuse when people perceive SG as perpetrating it.

    I don’t have a dog in this fight, and SG certainly doesn’t need my support. But, if any argument can be interpreted as a personal indictment, ethics can’t be discussed in a way that is enlightening to anyone.

    *which I don’t believe to be true.

  179. 179
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Happiestsadist,

    SG: Hey, it’s totally not a fucking lie that you’re claiming that I “can’t tell the difference between a stranger on the internet and an intimate partner.”

    I did say that. I thought the hyperbole was evident.

    Because what better way for some dude to claim that he’s totally in the right as a bully than to say “bitchez is crazy”?

    I apologize. It didn’t occur to me that this could seem like I was saying you’re crazy. I do see what you’re getting at.

    I’ll rephrase. The problem is that you’re insisting upon acceptance and a lack of criticism from me that you are not entitled to insist upon from a stranger. The problem is that this has been justified by pointing to tips on identifying abuse by intimate partners. Those are good tips. They just don’t apply the way some are trying to apply them here; strangers don’t owe it to each other to refrain from criticism, etc.

    Of course, intellectually speaking, you can tell the difference. Therefore you should stop relying on standards which were written to identify abusive partners.

    And you do this almost entirely to women. Funny, that.

    I’ll do this to anyone who claims that I’m abusing them by posting comments on a blog. It is unfortunate that more women have been abused and thus are more likely to be triggered.

    It’s interesting that you also pull the same thing every creep does when caught out as a creeper of “Strangers have no reasonable expectations”

    No, that’s clearly not what I’ve said. Strangers can and do have the right to personal space.

    I wouldn’t ask anyone here for personally identifying information.

    I wouldn’t make advances toward anyone here.

    I wouldn’t tell anyone here that they can’t reply to me on this public forum.

    But there are some specific things strangers aren’t entitled to.

    It’s not my responsibility to be thoughtful to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to be considerate to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to give information to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to open communications with you.

    It’s not my responsibility to refrain from judging you.

    It’s not my responsibility to stop responding to lies about me posted on a public forum, either.

    The things you seem to think are reasonable expectations — that is, you get to say whatever you want about me and I don’t get to keep calling you a liar — are not reasonable.

    if you were a remotely decent person, and remotely sincere in your giving a shit about oppression (as opposed to using it as a vanity project), YOU’D FUCKING STOP.

    That’s an interesting perspective. At someone’s pointing out that I was ignoring the possible triggering effects, I made an effort to acknowledge them. I understand that my relentlessness can be triggering.

    And the way that I speak here certainly should not be the way that people speak toward their intimate partners, for instance. That’s obvious.

    But I’m not going to stop replying to lying strangers on an internet forum just because they like to say whatever they want and then get triggered when I reply. I think it’s unfortunate. But I’m just not going to stop. You can of course judge me to be insincere.

    And your complaints that it’s just like sexists doubling down when feminists tell them to stop hurting people?

    No, that’s not what I said. I said it was like when sexists claim they’ll be doubling down on their antifeminism. I don’t think there’s evidence for that.

    And for the record I’m not doubling down on my unwillingness to stop replying to lies about me. This is actually a pretty slow rate of response for me.

    Though it is refreshing to know that you’re on record actually not caring about actual people’s health when it comes to the many downsides and impracticalities of a vegan diet.

    That is, of course, a total fucking lie. What I said was I wasn’t recommending it because of anyone’s health.

    You claimed that I was trying to talk to you about your health. That was a lie.

    I responded by pointing out that no, I was talking to you about the health and well-being of dairy cattle.

    Now you claim that I said I don’t care about your health. That is a lie. If you want to start talking about your health with me, we can talk about it. I just wasn’t opening up that line of conversation.

    ” I also know that changing behavior requires confronting people repeatedly with the intensity of the consequences of their actions. ”
    Yes, I’m familiar with propaganda and The Big Lie.

    Lol! Then what you’re claiming here is when we tell personal stories about women who had to seek illegal abortions, that’s propaganda and The Big Lie.

    I don’t think that’s how you should frame it.

  180. 180
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    The drawing is complete! There is even balls, cheese, water and a latter for the rats, with flowers in the background. The family got involved so the rats we drew are labeled as ours. She wrote her name very well on it, she just got one letter in the wrong place. Plus she wrote numbers to count the rats, cheese and balls to make sure there was enough for all of them.

    I wish I had a way to show you guys! It’s sooo cute.

  181. 181
    Cipher

    Comrade, you will do what is right when you are ready and able to do it. I know that. Don’t ask me what you, personally, should do; the sadists will eat me alive for even replying.

    This, though it wasn’t directed at me (and was in fact directed at someone significantly more likely to do the right thing in general than I am), I found helpful/reassuring. The circumstances I’m in with regard to food… I’ve promised myself to look more into food sourcing at least and try to do at least some level of harm reduction, but I can’t do that while I’m still in the place of not being able to consistently feed myself. Until I can fully convince myself that “well fine I just won’t eat” isn’t the correct response to food-related discouragements, I’m making the decision to continue feeding myself in the ways that I know are the most likely to result in me consistently eating. That usually means eating childhood/comfort foods. I have made some effort to introduce new sources of protein into my diet though (red beans and chickpeas), on good days.

    But I do wish you wouldn’t use “sadists” in this manner, SG, although I know this is sort of a lost battle in terms of the language. (Aside from my already-noted disagreement with you on the thing you’re actually trying to get at with that word, I really hate the fact that the same word is used for a sexual thing and a moral thing. I also have complained when antifeminist women are referred to as masochists, for a similar reason, although I frequently just give up and roll my eyes in irritation.)

    As I said earlier, SG has indulged in saying some very nasty (and untrue) things about me (and others) and apparently, it’s perfectly fine for him to do that.

    I don’t think it’s fine, for what it’s worth, Caine. I haven’t said much about it because I don’t know how to argue about people’s motivations in any more convincing fashion than I’ve already tried to, and I don’t think it is helping anybody any for me to continue trying on that count.

    What, you want me to start being a libertarian again?

    You think that’s bad? I didn’t even exist yet! :P (Okay, okay, I was a libertarian too. And a Chill Girl™. And a generally nasty hateful spiteful creature. I just wasn’t posting here.)

  182. 182
    Inaji

    AE:

    *which I don’t believe to be true.

    Thanks. Okay, well, I don’t disagree with what you said for the most part, however, I’m not expressing myself well on the subject, so I’ll just go back to ignoring it the best I can.

  183. 183
    dianne

    JAL: How is your teeth/financial situation working out? Are you still in need of help?

  184. 184
    Inaji

    JAL:

    The drawing is complete! There is even balls, cheese, water and a latter for the rats, with flowers in the background. The family got involved so the rats we drew are labeled as ours. She wrote her name very well on it, she just got one letter in the wrong place. Plus she wrote numbers to count the rats, cheese and balls to make sure there was enough for all of them.

    I wish I had a way to show you guys! It’s sooo cute.

    Aaaw! If you can take a photo of it and email it to me, I’ll upload it to my zenfolio. (You can grab my e-mail address there.)

  185. 185
    strange gods before me ॐ

    As I said earlier, SG has indulged in saying some very nasty (and untrue) things about me (and others) and apparently, it’s perfectly fine for him to do that. As an example, I saw quoted (I have SG killfiled) that I love and get a thrill out of hurting people. Now, if other people wish to assert that about me, I’ll pay attention – now would be the time to do it.

    Is that all you’re claiming was untrue, Caine? That you enjoy trying to hurt people? I’m prepared to show the evidence which supports this contention, if anyone asks.

  186. 186
    David Marjanović

    Very quick link dump from PET:

    Yet another case of From Minister To Atheist.

    Court orders Jehovah’s Witness boy be given blood transfusion.

    Paul Krugman: ‘I’m sick of being Cassandra. I’d like to win for once’ – “The American economist has a plan to escape the financial crisis, and it doesn’t involve austerity measures or deregulating the banks. But will policy-makers, including our coalition government, heed his advice?”

    Wonderful parody of AGW denialism.

    A different lolcat!

  187. 187
    RichardAustin

    Caine:

    A saltwater pool? I’d never leave!* I take it swimming goggles don’t do the trick for you? (Good ones, mind, the ones that cost way too much money.)

    I’ve only ever had cheap ones. Diving masks work, but you can’t really do laps in those…

    Still, working on it. It’s only in the last few years that I’ve been able to take a shower without having a towel nearby to immediately wipe off my face after washing my hair. Yeah, it’s that bad >.> Oh well. Baby steps.

  188. 188
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    HappiestSadist:

    SG: Hey, it’s totally not a fucking lie that you’re claiming that I “can’t tell the difference between a stranger on the internet and an intimate partner.” Because what better way for some dude to claim that he’s totally in the right as a bully than to say “bitchez is crazy”?

    He did that? Christ. I’m glad that piece of shit is in my killfile.

    AE:

    If I’m not mistaken, all claims of abuse are empirically verifiable*.

    So, when Pteryxx said earlier that they find TET triggering because SGBM behaves like an abuser, I guess they were “impoverishing the meaning of the word”?

    Also, did you want to go the DJ Grothe route and ask Pteryxx for medical paperwork or something?

    I just see that the anti-SG camp is participating in exactly the same behaviors that they regard as abuse.

    Hilarious, given the gaslighting you’re engaging in.

  189. 189
    David Marjanović

    Quoth The Sailor: “The reign in Spain escaped mainly by a plane.”

    And finally, Cthulhu Barbie!!!

  190. 190
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    On a personal note – Ugh. I just called up the office manager at the practice where I dealt with Dr. Too-Friendly. I got precisely the treatment I expected: The office manager telling me she’d worked with him for 30 years, she couldn’t imagine him doing something like this, “I’m sorry you feel that way,” etc. etc. No attempt at empathy whatsoever.

    I told her I wouldn’t be returning and I’d be advising other people not to go there, and I hung up on her.

    Can anybody here with a legal background advise me on whether I’d be putting myself in danger of a lawsuit if I were to leave a review on a site like RateMDs.com?

  191. 191
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Eh? You want me to become a raging MRA (while not knowing what half of it was about).

    I keep trying to eat new foods; it just isn’t happening. Bah.

  192. 192
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I really don’t know how reasonable it could ever be to assert that kind of thing about other people’s very emotions just based on public comments on a blog.

    Even if it was obvious that you did deliberately try to just plain hurt somebody, that wouldn’t say anything about your emotions and inclinations about it.

    NuMad, it wouldn’t logically prove the existence of those emotions, but from a Bayesian perspective it makes it more likely that the thrill of causing hurt was present.

    So, okay, I can’t prove it the same way I can point out a particular statement is false. But I do have evidence which is suggestive that Caine takes a thrill in hurting people and starting fights. People don’t generally act with no motivation.

  193. 193
    dianne

    A propos nothing so far on the thread, I just finished up a bunch of paperwork. I have much the same feeling now as I have after cleaning the bathroom: it needed to be done and there’s a certain satisfaction in clearing the crud, but it’s not the most fun thing one can do with a day.

  194. 194
    cyberCMDR

    Animal puns? Oh boy! I don’t want to minnow-mize anybody else’s efforts, but I’ll Betta-test a few of my own. You can tell me if I get any bass-ackwards. (They’ll probably be crappie anyway).

    Hmmm. Oh Mahi, this might be harder than I thought!

  195. 195
    strange gods before me ॐ

    So, when Pteryxx said earlier that they find TET triggering because SGBM behaves like an abuser, I guess they were “impoverishing the meaning of the word”?

    Yes, definitely. Look at exactly what Pteryxx said. It was the use of a checklist about intimate partners, being expanded well beyond its relevance.

    It is unfortunate that no distinction is being made between “reminds me of an abuser”, which may well be true, and “is acting like an abuser” which is false since such abuse requires more intimacy than is present here.

  196. 196
    Inaji

    Richard:

    Still, working on it. It’s only in the last few years that I’ve been able to take a shower without having a towel nearby to immediately wipe off my face after washing my hair. Yeah, it’s that bad >.>

    It’s progress, right? So that’s a good thing. Are you able to swim underwater, or is that completely out? As for swimming goggles, you’re looking for top of the line pro ones. Those function like a diving mask, as far as keeping the water out. If you get a pair that keeps the water out, it may go a long way to helping you get into swimming without panic.

  197. 197
    RichardAustin

    I don’t wanna go back to 2008. Bush and Cheney were in office, and Wall Street was getting ready to drop a load on us.

  198. 198
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    re: knee replacement: I almost certainly am. I am my father’s daughter – he’s already had one replaced. I just finally got health insurance again, after four very scary months without it, so I’ll be hitting up the doc soon. You are right though that is it worrying.

    Re: running shoes. I actually did just buy a pair, and it has made a big difference. And, the pain only occurs while I’m running. Knees are a little stiff for a while after running, but for example, the next day I’m perfectly fine. Hoping its just being out of shape instead of knee-capped, as it were.

    ++

    Pathetic pre-puberty pissing contest.

    It’s more than a little depressing to me. I really liked his blog until . . . . recently. . ..

  199. 199
    Inaji

    David:

    And finally, Cthulhu Barbie!!!

    Hmmm. The blonde hair does not work well in this instance, but I suppose, seeing it’s Barbie. That said, in no way whatsoever does Ball Gown Cthulhu work.

  200. 200
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Not on any topic currently being discussed:
    It has become apparent that I have to teach the guys in my office simple arithmetic. Bah.

  201. 201
    RichardAustin

    Caine:

    Useful suggestion. I’ll check ‘em out. That may at least get me swimming.

  202. 202
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Cipher,

    But I do wish you wouldn’t use “sadists” in this manner, SG, although I know this is sort of a lost battle in terms of the language. (Aside from my already-noted disagreement with you on the thing you’re actually trying to get at with that word, I really hate the fact that the same word is used for a sexual thing and a moral thing.

    Thank you; that’s a good point. I won’t do it again.

  203. 203
    dianne

    It has become apparent that I have to teach the guys in my office simple arithmetic.

    But that’s impossible. Math is a guy thing and men are just born knowing how to calculate the 15th digit of e in their heads.

  204. 204
    RichardAustin

    Audley:

    Why is it that my mind immediately jumped to an image of you saying, “One plus one equals go fuck yourself”? :)

  205. 205
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    SG: There is no fucking evidence that Caine enjoys hurting people or fighting with you. You’re just being your usual gaslighting, tu quoque-humping self. Nobody but you gives a shit about your little list of enemies here.

    And it’s fucking rich that you shriek and cry about how the meanies are hurting you for…responding to you in a tone that’s warranted considering how you continually address others. You cannot freely abuse people without fear that some of us will snap back.

    You continued insistence that people who frequent the same place for years, often meeting in person, etc. are simply strangers who owe each other nothing in the slightest is fucking Randian. Not being a shit to others, especially others who are in theory your “group” is basic fucking stuff.

  206. 206
    Inaji

    Richard:

    Why is it that my mind immediately jumped to an image of you saying, “One plus one equals go fuck yourself”?

    :falls over laughing: Oh, cruel! Audley’s going to want to say this all day now. ;p

  207. 207
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    I reiterate, SG: Stop fucking triggering people just to show off what a brave widdle warrior with a totally huge cock you are.

  208. 208
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Dianne,
    *snerk!*

    Thankfully, I won’t get that kind of sass back out of them– they know that I am their last line of defense before getting fired. They will either listen to me and stop screwing up their paperwork or they’ll be shitcanned.

  209. 209
    Inaji

    Happiestsadist:

    There is no fucking evidence that Caine enjoys hurting people or fighting with you.

    Yeah, it would be nice if I could successfully disengage from this completely. I’ve been trying for, what, two TETs now?

  210. 210
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    Illuminata, you have two problems, breathing and knees, so here’s my two cents.

    1) Breathing – Your breathing won’t improve until you stress your lungs the right way. First, practice diaphragmattic breathing while not running. Get in a yoga position and practice *really* deep breathing, shoving your stomach out while you do it. This will stimulate all of your lungs, not just the top part of the lobes. When you’ve got that down, try the breathing while running slowly; you should feel the extra energy you get from the extra oxygen you’re pumping into your system. When you can do that, then start throwing in wind spirits, that is, sprint as hard as you can for a VERY short time (as short as three breaths), alternating sprints with 2 – 3 mins of jogging/running until your heart rate is down.

    2) As for your knees, there are a couple of things you can do before calling in the surgeons. First, do some weight training on the lower legs and knees — the quad machine, the recumbent squat machine, the leg biceps machine. If you build the muscles all around the knees, make them very strong and hard, you can protect your knees to a certain extent. Next, try a session or two with a paid running coach to analyze your gait. You can get rid of a lot of your pain simply by running with proper technique — which is not as easy as it looks! You’ll likely have to change how your foot pushes off and how it strikes the ground.

    Tell me how it all works out!

  211. 211
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Caine, the picture has been sent!

    dianne

    JAL: How is your teeth/financial situation working out? Are you still in need of help?

    Teeth hurt like hell still but I’m just waiting for my appointment day now. It takes awhile since the college is one of the few places people can go these days. It’s extremely busy. I am getting in sooner than usual because my teeth are so bad, so that’s good. I can’t wait to get it fixed.

    The Horde came through and we’ll be able to pay rent this Friday when the transfer goes through. =)

  212. 212
    Cipher

    Thank you; that’s a good point. I won’t do it again.

    Thanks, I appreciate that.

  213. 213
    Inaji

    The Rattie drawing JAL’s Little One did, It’s adorable!

    Thank you, Little One. :)

  214. 214
    Inaji

    JAL:

    The Horde came through and we’ll be able to pay rent this Friday when the transfer goes through. =)

    *Phew* That’s good news. Really good news.

  215. 215
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Caine: Sorry to bringing you into it again.

    JAL and Caine: Awww! That is so sweet.

  216. 216
    Inaji

    Happiestsadist, no worries, that wasn’t directed at you, but I was hardly clear about that.

    Given my life experiences, I don’t deal well with SG’s particular brand of shit, so I’ve been trying to ignore it. I’ll try harder. ;D

  217. 217
    strange gods before me ॐ

    SG: There is no fucking evidence that Caine enjoys hurting people or fighting with you.

    I didn’t say she enjoys fighting with me.

    I’ll go get the evidence now, since you’re claiming it doesn’t exist. In a moment. First, more of your lies:

    And it’s fucking rich that you shriek and cry about how the meanies are hurting you for…

    HappiestSadist, you are lying. This appears to be about the sixth time you’ve told the same lie.

    I am not concerned about anyone here hurting me. . What bothers me is dishonesty.

    responding to you in a tone that’s warranted considering how you continually address others. You cannot freely abuse people without fear that some of us will snap back.

    I’m not abusing you.

    It is unfortunate that no distinction is being made between “reminds me of an abuser”, which may well be true, and “is acting like an abuser” which is false since such abuse requires more intimacy than is present here.

    Again, since you are a lying liar, HappiestSadist, I’ll repeat this ad nauseum. You can use any tone you want with me.

    I’m not complaining about tone.

    I am complaining about dishonesty.

    Do you care about difference between tone and honesty? If so, try demonstrating it by being honest.

    You will note, for instance, that RahXephon and Stacy have engaged using a very disparaging tone, but honestly, and that is perfectly okay with me. I have thanked them for their honesty.

    You continued insistence that people who frequent the same place for years, often meeting in person, etc. are simply strangers who owe each other nothing in the slightest is fucking Randian

    That’s another lie from you.

    I wouldn’t ask anyone here for personally identifying information.

    I wouldn’t make advances toward anyone here.

    I wouldn’t tell anyone here that they can’t reply to me on this public forum.

    But there are some specific things strangers aren’t entitled to.

    It’s not my responsibility to be thoughtful to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to be considerate to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to give information to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to open communications with you.

    It’s not my responsibility to refrain from judging you.

    It’s not my responsibility to stop responding to lies about me posted on a public forum, either.

    The things you seem to think are reasonable expectations — that is, you get to say whatever you want about me and I don’t get to keep calling you a liar — are not reasonable.

    Not being a shit to others, especially others who are in theory your “group” is basic fucking stuff.

    Well, since it’s time to reiterate this as I do about twice a year,

    this is not my group.

    I am not one of you.

    I have not felt welcome here in a long time.

    I am here because a lot of people here are smart, and being around them is helpful to me, personally, selfishly. That’s it.

    I’m not one of you.

    I’m not on your side.

  218. 218
    ryanwilkinson

    Seeing as vat-meat seems to be incredibly likely in the near future, is there any point waging the war against meat-eaters any more?

  219. 219
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    So, when Pteryxx said earlier that they find TET triggering because SGBM behaves like an abuser, I guess they were “impoverishing the meaning of the word”?

    You are conflating things. When people engage in exactly the same behavior that they regard in others as abuse, is it not also abuse? When someone claims that a behavior is triggering to them*, and then engages in that behavior, I call it hypocrisy.

    Hilarious, given the gaslighting you’re engaging in.

    Fucking please.

  220. 220
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Haha, I love children’s drawings sometimes.

    Recently, The Babby has been ‘drawing’. They all look like incomprehensible scribbles, but if you ask her what she drew she’ll point to it and say ‘Cat!’ or ‘bug!’ or ‘Turtle!’

  221. 221
    RichardAustin

    TLC:

    Intent is magic (sometimes) :)

  222. 222
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Had a good meeting with the transgender advocate today, he gave me a list of therapists in the area to help with the social, psychological aspects of the transition… this is gonna be fuun.

  223. 223
    Cipher

    Had a good meeting with the transgender advocate today, he gave me a list of therapists in the area to help with the social, psychological aspects of the transition… this is gonna be fuun.

    Yay! I’m so glad to hear it went well! *glitterconfettihugs*

  224. 224
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    SG: You haven’t come up with a single lie from me, and nobody here’s lying about you, or what you’ve said. And frankly, your inability to comprehend the posts of others, while still insisting you’re being misrepresented by everyone else, is not saying much about you.

  225. 225
    Rey Fox

    Had a good meeting with the transgender advocate today, he gave me a list of therapists in the area to help with the social, psychological aspects of the transition… this is gonna be fuun.

    Hope we’ve been able to start you down that road a little.

    Seeing as vat-meat seems to be incredibly likely in the near future

    Ehh, so far as I know, it’s a long way from being 1) comparable to real meat in taste or texture, and 2) more economical than raising real animals.

  226. 226
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    AE, since when the fuck has Pteryxx ever been abusive or bullying? They’re one of the most polite and gentle people here.

    And, no, engaging in a behavior defensively is not the same as initiating it. The “anti-SG brigade” has killfiled him and tried going on to different subjects. I don’t see any willingness on his part to do likewise.

  227. 227
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Ms Daisy Cutter:

    IANAL(Y): But I do have information about such things. Generally I study the constitution, but I’ve studied this (in the US) to the extent that slander and libel laws bump up against US constitutional speech protections.

    No one can stop you from stating your opinion or sue your for stating it. Also, you are free to assert facts that you know or have good reason to believe are true, whether or not they tend to injure a business or person.

    But, and here we’re leaving the area of my expertise, so I can’t say anything with certainty about the law, it’s tricky when you assert things that are contestable as fact.

    “He is a pickpocket” v. “I had my wallet in my pocket when he bumped into me. I know because I checked before I got up from my desk and no one touched me on the way to the breakroom, it was heavy enough I would feel something if it were to fall out, and there was no one else in the breakroom so it was very quiet and I would have heard something if it had fallen other than when he bumped me. Then he bumped me and said, “Ooof” as he did it. He immediately apologized in a louder than normal voice. I touched and was touched by no one else as I walked 10 feet to the soda machine, in fact there was still no one else in the breakroom. When I reached for my wallet it wasn’t there. I thought he might have pickpockted me, but I also thought that maybe I’d had a brain fart. I went back to my desk and my wallet was there, but all of my cash was gone and Chloe told me that he had briefly leaned on my desk while talking to her only a minute before I got back. She didn’t see him produce the wallet, but as he left, she noticed that when he leaned up his hand had been resting on my wallet, not the desk itself.”

    One of these is much riskier than the other.

    Of course,

    “I think he is sexist and untrustworthy and I would never go see him again,” is an opinion followed by a statement of fact, but the statement of fact is an asserted intention – even if you change your mind that doesn’t prove it wasn’t true in the moment.

    Thus clear opinion tends to have greater protection than assertion of fact, but facts that you can verify and either can’t be contradicted or easily contradicted and that are worded in unambiguous ways can be safe even when incredibly offensive.

    This says nothing about whether a given article/note/screed will run afoul of the law in your jurisdiction. Just about general principles about which speech tends to be better protected than which other speech.

  228. 228
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Also, this was bizarre for another reason:

    You continued insistence that people who frequent the same place for years, often meeting in person, etc. are simply strangers who owe each other nothing in the slightest is fucking Randian

    I’ve never met anyone from Pharyngula. I don’t care to. If some of you have mutually agreed upon higher expectations from each other, that’s great for y’all. But I’m not a part of it. Leave me out of your cliques. I’ma go sit under the bleachers. ;)

    +++++
    Evidence:

    Here is a summary of an argument taking place on another thread. All well and good, that’s where most people, oh especially Caine, like to see arguments stay, in their originating thread.

    In the middle of that, here is Caine bringing it to TET to start a fight and try to hurt the person who she disagreed with.

    So, again, evidence can’t prove most things logically. Caine can offer whatever rationalization she likes to believe about herself. But from a Bayesian perspective the evidence suggests we should take more seriously the possibility that Caine really does get a thrill out of starting fights.

  229. 229
    Rey Fox

    And 3) not liable to give us all super-cancer or something like that years down the line.

  230. 230
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Found this via JoeMyGod. I thought some here might be interested, if you haven’t seen it yet.

    Moisés Kaufman and members of New York’s Tectonic Theater Project went to Laramie, Wyoming after the murder of Matthew Shepard. This is a film version of the play they wrote based on more than 200 interviews they conducted in Laramie. It follows and in some cases re-enacts the chronology of Shepard’s visit to a local bar, his kidnap and beating, the discovery of him tied to a fence, the vigil at the hospital, his death and funeral, and the trial of his killers. It mixes real news reports with actors portraying friends, family, cops, killers, and other Laramie residents in their own words. It concludes with a Laramie staging of “Angels in America” a year after Shephard’s death.

    The Laramie Project

    *off to watch the movie*

  231. 231
    Inaji

    Kat Lorraine:

    Had a good meeting with the transgender advocate today

    That’s excellent!

  232. 232
    ImaginesABeach

    Some of you may have heard of CeCe McDonald, a transgender woman in Minnesota who was charged with murder. She has pled guilty and will be sentenced today. The Minneapolis Star Tribune’s headline about this says:

    State to initially house new inmate ‘CeCe’ McDonald as a male

    The article is enough to make me want to scream (the person from the Department of Corrections refers to CeCe as “he”). But the headline bothers me too. The quotes around her name feel like they are saying, “this person isn’t who they claim to be.”

    I seriously don’t get how to do links, so here is the sloppy version: http://www.startribune.com/local/157000805.html

  233. 233
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    That?!? That is an example of Caine hurting a person?

    *eyeroll*

  234. 234
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Katherine Lorraine: I’m so glad to hear it went well!

  235. 235
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Crip Dyke, thanks…. although I think there is a difference between that scenario and my scenario, because while a wallet could have gone missing in a variety of ways, he was the only one standing behind me when I was at the front desk. But I’m also aware that this isn’t your field of law and that local statutes may differ.

  236. 236
    dianne

    3) not liable to give us all super-cancer or something like that years down the line.

    As opposed to real meat? Ever heard of new variant Creuzfeld-Jakob? Admittedly, only a few people got it and it’s not cancer, but still pretty nasty. Though I agree that thorough premarket testing would be all to the good…wish someone had done it with cows…

  237. 237
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Hairhead – ooooh thank you! I need a starting place and those are fascinating suggestions. There’s actually a running coach at my gym. Going to hit him up for an appointment. Thanks!!

  238. 238
    Inaji

    AE:

    When people engage in exactly the same behavior that they regard in others as abuse, is it not also abuse?

    I think you’re missing that a lot of people are being backed into a corner and harassed with no let up. If SG were doing this to me in meatspace, I would have already reported him for stalking and signed out a restraining order. Does that help? If not, I don’t know what to say. In case you haven’t noticed, people are desperately trying to go on with TET as usual. There’s one person here who is making that very difficult.

  239. 239
    Sili

    AE, since when the fuck has Pteryxx ever been abusive or bullying? They’re one of the most polite and gentle people here.

    Thank you.

  240. 240
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    That is your example of Caine’s boundless depraved cruelty?

    I see.

    Please stay under the bleachers.

  241. 241
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Oh, FSM, I can’t believe I’m weighing in (and, yes, it’s lunch time, though I need to get back to work right quick):

    It is unfortunate that no distinction is being made between “reminds me of an abuser”, which may well be true, and “is acting like an abuser” which is false since such abuse requires more intimacy than is present here.

    It is unfortunate that no distinction is being made between “is acting like an abuser” which may well be true, and “is acting as an abuser” which is false since such abuse requires more intimacy than is present here.

  242. 242
    Cipher

    P.S. To all the people who have expressed interest in my work, thank you! I’m really embarrassed because I doubt it’s going to be much good, but really, if it does turn out well I’d be glad to send it to you. I have an email with google that’s dedicated only to Pharyngula stuff – it’s classicalcipher.

  243. 243
    ImaginesABeach

    Well, there is lousy timing in posting.

    Katherine Lorraine – I’m very glad you had a sucessful meeting today. Over the past couple years, it has been a lot fun watching how joyful and confident you have become.

  244. 244
    Sili

    Yay! Kitty. Congrats!

  245. 245
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Katherine Lorraine: all my supprotive vibes going out to you. Every step is a huge step. You rock. Keep us posted.

  246. 246
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Yay Katherine! Glad it went well.

  247. 247
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    So! The House of Happiest is now spotless. *whew*

    And The Mr. and I may be going to a symphony performance this Friday. Yaaaay!

    He and I also went out Saturday to the Eaton Centre, and left about 20 minutes before this: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/06/04/toronto-eaton-centre.html
    So, uh, really glad I didn’t try to convince him we needed food court junk food.

  248. 248
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @ Daisy:

    Of course there are serious differences.

    The problem was i wrote out a hypothetical that might have been more useful…

    …and then triggered myself. I said to myself, Unholy Fucktoy of Gods, why would anyone want to read *that*.

    I promptly rewrote it to be about picking pockets. If you want to have a longer discussion on e-mail or something, I might be able to provide more info and/or useful links, but in the long run I’ll still never be able to tell you whether X paragraph is or isn’t libel the way that a lawyer in your jurisdiction (who practices in this field) would be able to do.

  249. 249
    strange gods before me ॐ

    SG: You haven’t come up with a single lie from me, and nobody here’s lying about you, or what you’ve said.

    HappiestSadist, you have lied multiple times. Shall we go over them all again?

    Let’s try it one by one. Here is a lie:

    Though it is refreshing to know that you’re on record actually not caring about actual people’s health when it comes to the many downsides and impracticalities of a vegan diet.

    What I was on record saying is that I wasn’t trying to start a discussion with you about your health.

    FWIW, HappiestSadist is vegetarian and actually does care about animal suffering.

    That’s interesting to know. I’m sure HappiestSadist will care to be informed that consuming dairy causes suffering and premature death. Likewise eggs.

    In response to being told that you care about animal suffering, I pointed out that consuming dairy causes suffering too.

    You might claim the context was not evident, ignoring that I provided a link which talked about dairy cattle’s suffering, and ignoring that I was responding directly to someone talking about animal suffering.

    But okay, so you did’t read for context. Next you said:

    And hey, thanks for the deep, personal concern for my health and well-being. I mean, especially as you yourself acknowledge that we’re mostly all strangers here. That’s not at all an inappropriately personal interest to have, and definitely not a way to concern-troll and food-police anyone.

    So I pointed out even more explicitly that I had not been talking about your health:

    I don’t think I said anything about your health and well-being, HappiestSadist. The article I linked for you was not about your health, it was about the health and well-being of dairy cattle.

    In response, you claimed I said something I did not say:

    Though it is refreshing to know that you’re on record actually not caring about actual people’s health when it comes to the many downsides and impracticalities of a vegan diet.

    That was obviously a lie from you, Happiestsadist. It had been fully clarified, and you lied anyway, because you are a liar.

  250. 250
    Inaji

    Cipher:

    I doubt it’s going to be much good

    Aarrgh. Stop that, right now! Else I’ll thwap you repeatedly with a pillow.

  251. 251
    ryanwilkinson

    And since trans-people have come up I have a question to ask.

    Are trans people wanting to switch genders because of current gender roles, or is it purely a biological want?

    I don’t know what to google to answer this, and I’m just curious. If it’s a ‘derail’ then please just ignore me.

  252. 252
    strange gods before me ॐ

    That?!? That is an example of Caine hurting a person?

    I didn’t say it was an attempt to hurt them very badly. Just a thrill in getting to hurt someone, to some degree.

    That is simply one recent example in an ongoing pattern. You cannot deny that Caine was starting a fight there.

    That is your example of Caine’s boundless depraved cruelty?

    Your hyperbole, it is dishonest.

  253. 253
    rorschach

    For the love of dog, PZ, give us some other thread to distract us.

  254. 254
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    since when the fuck has Pteryxx ever been abusive or bullying? They’re one of the most polite and gentle people here.

    I dont’ know about abusive or bullying, but I would think anyone would be scared of a be-taloned maniraptor! Haven’t you seen Jurassic Park?

  255. 255
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    “Also, I love how anyone who disagrees with you on the subject isn’t “rational.”

    “Just like anybody who disagrees with you on animal rights is a monster.

    “I hate the concern-trolling about medication, too, incidentally,”

    “I’m with Daisy, I’ve long been sick of the SC show and having yet another thread derailed to the exclusion of all else.* Schizophrenia, no matter what you call it, does exist. I know that up close and personal, so the ‘pretend it doesn’t exist’ brigade can have a happy dose of fuck off already.”

    “All in all it confirms my suspicions that SC cares a lot about thing in general, but doesn’t give a flying fuck about individuals.

    “You aren’t willing to come out and say that you think they should just snap out of it, but that seems to be the implication.”

    “…If you saw someone having a seizure on the street, would you just step around them, assuming that if they wanted help they’d call 911?”

    “…his friends didn’t agree that he should be left alone to rot”

    “…Thanks for saying that he wasn’t worth trying to help.”

    “I resent the implication that people like me are either too stupid and lazy to learn about what may help or potentially harm someone we love or else we just don’t fucking care enough about our family members but just want a “magic pill” to make the symptoms go away (or drug our loved ones into a stupor, but hey who cares, right?) to make our lives simpler.”

    “I don’t believe in magic pills, and I am pretty sure that other intelligent people here don’t either. The fucking nasty assumptions to the contrary – and the implication that anyone who even tries to work with what little we fucking have to deal with the real and not imaginary challenges and pain of mental illness are closed-minded, ignorant lapdogs for Big Pharma™ and The Medical Establishment™ – are insulting, offensive and just plain wrong.”

    All of these were personal attacks against me and vicious and misleading mischaracterizations of what I’d said. They were not grounded in evidence and contrary to the existing evidence of what I had actually said, as was pointed out at the time and ignored. All of them are from a short period in the past week, and several were met with support from others. At the time, someone asked what I wanted to see happen, and I said in my response that I wanted the personal attacks, mischaracterizations, and ad homs to stop. But they didn’t. Some of them were from the same people talking about sg’s alleged single-handed bullying (I’ll note that he was one of the few people – Jadehawk, too – who pointed out that these were lies and baseless smears). People are doing it to sg now. It’s amazing – it’s like the real, intensive ganging up and bullying is invisible even to the people participating in it.

    * Note that this started when I responded to a set of loaded questions posted by Giliell, just like sg was responding to her bullshit claims about animal/dairy farming. That one’s from Caine, of whom sg asked on that thread: “Caine, wasn’t it not even a month ago that you brought your complaints about SC here to TET, even though the discussion was already taking place in another thread, and then you started whinging when she responded here?” I don’t think there was a response.

  256. 256
    Inaji

    And since trans-people have come up I have a question to ask.

    :sigh: When did PZ show up to say you were released from TZT, Ryan?

  257. 257
    Cipher

    Aarrgh. Stop that, right now! Else I’ll thwap you repeatedly with a pillow.

    Hehe. Okay, I’ll try. I’m actually sitting here holding my Soft Kitty pillow, so it’s readily available.

  258. 258
    Inaji

    Crip Dyke:

    I would think anyone would be scared of a be-taloned maniraptor!

    That reminds me, after watching Hugo last night, we were chatting while the mass amount of credits rolled past, and a name I caught out of the corner of my eye at one point was Talon.

  259. 259
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I didn’t say it was an attempt to hurt them very badly. Just a thrill in getting to hurt someone, to some degree.

    Dumbfounded. Just absolutely gobsmacked.

    If that is the worst thing that happens to me in a given day, it would be a day with almost no conflict.

    What the fuck is your problem?

  260. 260
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    You cannot deny that Caine was starting a fight there.

    More like another group bashing session.

  261. 261
    strange gods before me ॐ

    It is unfortunate that no distinction is being made between “is acting like an abuser” which may well be true, and “is acting as an abuser” which is false since such abuse requires more intimacy than is present here.

    Crip Dyke, all the resources supplied have been to intimate partner abuse.

    I shouldn’t imply that there can’t be other types of abuse, but to be sure, replying to people in blog comments can’t be abuse. As AE noted:

    *Unless SGBM is indulging in extra-FtB communication.

    Which I’m not.

  262. 262
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    No, SG, the fact that you only are interesting in farmed animals as opposed to people does show amply that you don’t give a shit about human health, and are more interested in diet policing. See I’m doing this thing, where I look at what you actually say, and taking meaning from that. Try it sometime.

    I will admit to not reading your link, though. Because anything you cite is bound to be as full of shit as you are. So not so much lying, as not caring. Also, I wasn’t the one who pointed out my vegetarianism.

    But please, keep up your paranoia and enemies lists.

    Ryanwilkinson @ #251: People who have problems with gender stereotypes are usually called either “feminists” or “people who have problems with gender stereotypes”. Trans people aren’t “switching genders” as much as achieving bodily congruence with their internal gender.

  263. 263
    Cipher

    :sigh: When did PZ show up to say you were released from TZT, Ryan?

    That. But if you go to Natalie’s blog, she has answers for your questions. BUT READ AND THINK BEFORE YOU ASK THEM.

  264. 264
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @ryan:

    Seems like you don’t quite know enough to know how to phrase what you want to ask.

    Are you asking for an etiology of trans identity?

    Are you asking for an etiology of gender dysphoria? (free answers: the answer to both these first 2 questions is, “We don’t know.”)

    Are you asking why a person would want sex reassignment surgery?

    Are you asking why a person would want others to use differently gendered pronouns than had been applied to that person by default in the past?

    Are you asking why a person would name the gender role that they believe applies to them, “Man,” when that person was told repeatedly early in life that the gender role that applies is, “Girl”?

    Are you asking how it’s even possible for an individual to determine a gender role since a gender role is a set of expectations, rewards, and punishments and those are primarily the thoughts and actions of persons *other* than the individual?


    Are any of these questions resonating at all? Do you mean to ask something else?

  265. 265
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Dumbfounded. Just absolutely gobsmacked.

    If that is the worst thing that happens to me in a given day, it would be a day with almost no conflict.

    What the fuck is your problem?

    Janine, again, I didn’t say anything about degree. You keep responding as if I did. I did not.

    It is unequivocally an attempt to start a fight, and a thrill at hurting someone. Maybe not much hurt, maybe not much thrill — maybe not much of a fight, although it did turn out to be one.

  266. 266
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Caine, don’t be so bullying! All ryanwilkinson wants is for Katherine to justify her existence. The same stands for all of the other transgendered people who are here.

  267. 267
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    SG:

    Drawing a distinction between “like” and “as”. Abusers are abusers because they engage in specific behavior in a specific context – that’s how we define it. But engaging in the same behaviors could certainly be said to be “acting like an abuser.” Which is different than saying someone “is” an abuser or is acting “as” an abuser.

  268. 268
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    AE, since when the fuck has Pteryxx ever been abusive or bullying? They’re one of the most polite and gentle people here.

    Pteryxx hasn’t been involved in the discussion for hundreds of comments, so I’m not sure why you are bringing hir up again and again, but 1) SG has clearly demonstrated the problem with Pteryxx’s notion of abuse as it was applied to him, maybe 10 times since then, and right above (#195).
    But for example: Happiestsadist claims that SG is bullying. Track hir comments.What is xe doing that is explicitly different? SG has made it clear that he will always respond to lies. Then just up thread we have this:

    And it’s fucking rich that you shriek and cry about how the meanies are hurting you for…responding to you in a tone that’s warranted considering how you continually address others.

    Find an instance of SG complaining about tone. Or people being mean. Or being hurt. These are lies that warrant response.
    And then this completely-not-abusive gem, in a subsequent comment that isn’t clearly a reply to anything.

    Stop fucking triggering people just to show off what a brave widdle warrior with a totally huge cock you are.

    So Happiestsadist (for example) regards SG as maliciously triggering, and yet engages in puerile taunting that will almost certainly provoke the kind of response that xe finds triggering.
    It’s a stupid clusterfuck, and I’m sorry to have engaged in any of it.

    And, no, engaging in a behavior defensively is not the same as initiating it. The “anti-SG brigade” has killfiled him and tried going on to different subjects. I don’t see any willingness on his part to do likewise.

    He is clearly responding to comments directed at him. The killfiling behavior of the “anti-SG brigade”*, has been ineffective to say the very least.
    *Your term, not mine.

  269. 269
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Rorschach and anyone else seeking distraction:

    Illithid is fucking tripling down on the misogyny in the ‘Real Scientists’ thread. I’m kind of shocked it’s still going on, and that he hasn’t been quarantined for zombie infection yet.

  270. 270
    ryanwilkinson

    I meant to ask:

    If sexism and homophobia were completely eradicated, if we got to a stage where there were no gender roles and no homophobia, would people still want to switch sex, because it’s a biological issue? Or, is it more a gender issue?

    I’m reading through Natalie’s blog now, thank you, Cipher.

    I thought TET and TZT were interchangeable. Clearly I am wrong, I apologise, I’ll not say anything else on this thread.

  271. 271
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    For the love of dog, PZ, give us some other thread to distract us.

    Let’s see. Should be waking up after 8 hours sleep, but will need some food. Maybe in 2 hours a fresh series of post will appear.

    Applause to Katherine for a good meeting. I could feel your relief through the intertubes.

  272. 272
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    @Katherine:
    That’s awesome! (As are you.) I hope everything in the future goes as well as possible for you :)

    Cipher:

    I doubt it’s going to be much good

    Aarrgh. Stop that, right now! Else I’ll thwap you repeatedly with a pillow.

    Not the *soft* cushions!
    (Why not the comfy chair?)


    And with that, in theory I will be leaving and going to bed. (Ah, who am I kidding, I probably won’t. ‘Bedtime’ as a concept, especially during holidays, means very little to me.)

  273. 273
    rorschach

    Rorschach and anyone else seeking distraction:

    I’m stuck on a boring night shift waiting to go home and sleep, I’d much prefer that over boring trolls…

  274. 274
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Happiestsadist

    No, SG, the fact that you only are interesting in farmed animals as opposed to people does show amply that you don’t give a shit about human health, and are more interested in diet policing.

    Ah, but that is of course not true,

    since I did just respond to Walton’s issues about eating, and his health, completely non-judgmentally: “Comrade, you will do what is right when you are ready and able to do it. I know that. Don’t ask me what you, personally, should do”.

    And I’m glad that Cipher was able to take the same as reassuring. I do care about people’s health and ability — if you’d pay attention you’d notice these things.

    See I’m doing this thing, where I look at what you actually say,

    Oh, I wish you would.

    I will admit to not reading your link, though. Because anything you cite is bound to be as full of shit as you are.

    That’s irrational. I was citing PZ the other day in another thread.

    So not so much lying, as not caring.

    If you don’t care about whether what you’re saying is true, while you have the ability to check whether it’s true, that’s very, very dishonest. It’s creationist-level dishonesty.

    Also, I wasn’t the one who pointed out my vegetarianism.

    Indeed, I didn’t claim that you were.

    Now, should we move on to another of your lies?

  275. 275
    dianne

    I’m stuck on a boring night shift waiting to go home and sleep,

    My sympathies.

  276. 276
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Caine, don’t be so bullying! All ryanwilkinson wants is for Katherine to justify her existence. The same stands for all of the other transgendered people who are here.

    Oh, yes, of course! Silly of me not to see it.

    AE:

    Pteryxx hasn’t been involved in the discussion for hundreds of comments, so I’m not sure why you are bringing hir up again and again

    For one, because Pteryxx stated they cannot handle being on TET when SG is here, due to his continual habit of harassment, bullying and displaying behaviour similar to that of an abuser. Pteryxx isn’t the only one who won’t show up on TET when SG is on one of his tears. There are a number of people who won’t, and it’s a loss. The mere fact that SG will ruin one incarnation of TET after another and has no consideration whatsoever for people he triggers or drives away should tell you something. However, it appears he can do no wrong in your eyes, so carry on.

  277. 277
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @everyone –

    sorry for feeding the troll. Didn’t know it was identified as one.

    =======

    Speaking of maniraptors…

    Y’know, I’ve never seen the response to Kirk Cameron’s crockoduck that I’ve really wanted to see.

    The first time I saw that, I instantly flashed to a crystal clear image and had no problems imagining how I would have responded in person.

    If I were on an interview/discussion program with him, as an interviewer or as another panelist, and he said his bit about, “How come we’ve never come across one of these, a crockoduck, in the fossil record?” I would have said,

    “Are you a complete moron? Have you been paying no attention to popular culture for the last 20 years? You’re wondering why we don’t, in the fossil record, come across feathered bipeds with horizontal torsos, arms capable of a flight-stroke type movement, and a dangerous-looking reptilian head with reptilian jaws and teeth? That’s exactly what the alvarezsaurids are, and velociraptor, who had quills on her arms, qualifies almost as well. You stupid git, you’re asking why we don’t find 3 toed, bipedal, feathered carnivores with vicious teeth when that’s exactly what you find all over the place in strata from 65 to 145 million years ago. How can you interact with any child in the US and not know about theropod dinosaurs? Are you seriously asserting that you know anything about the fossil record at all and you don’t know about the most popular and obsessed over and widely reported group of extinct animals *ever*?”

    Yes, I know that there are other legit objections, but this is what i think when I see crockoduck: Hey! A squat dromeosaur!

    I know why he gets berated for his lack of knowledge about how evolution is supposed to occur in populations and through processes such as natural selection and genetic drift, but I don’t know why he’s not called out as being wrong on his assertion that, “nothing like this exists in the fossil record.”

    Or, at least, that calling him out on that seems to be rare enough that i haven’t heard that response.

    Okay, really have to get back to work now. And laundry. How is there time for anyone to write articles and books when the house insists on producing laundry and dirty dishes all the time?*

    *pay no attention to that time devoted to TET behind the curtain.

  278. 278
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    The mere fact that SG will ruin one incarnation of TET after another and has no consideration whatsoever for people he triggers or drives away should tell you something.

    You have missed my point. I find that some of those claiming abuse are guilty of the same tactics. They are behaving in ways that they themselves find triggering. How is that not hypocritical? How are they not equally responsible for “ruining” an incarnation of TET?

    However, it appears he can do no wrong in your eyes, so carry on.

    How facile of you.

  279. 279
    strange gods before me ॐ

    The mere fact that SG will ruin one incarnation of TET after another and has no consideration whatsoever

    Also not true,

    given my earlier suggestion that people can try to regard me less ambiguously for their own self-defense,

    given my attempt to acknowledge that my behavior can be triggering to them,

    given my willingness to stop explicitly acknowledging that if it turns out to be more aggravating to them than the alternative,

    given my consideration for the way that something I said could be interpreted as insinuating that they were crazy, and my retraction of that.

    I care about the negative impact I may be having, and I have demonstrated a willingness to limit some of it where I can do so honestly. What I am not willing to do is let lies and bullshit slide.

  280. 280
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good evening

    Katherine
    YAY! I really hope that this is the good start you were hoping for.

    JAL & Caine
    That is adorable!

    TLC
    To my knowledge it’s a normal development in children to draw what adults consider unrecognizable scribbles and have long and wonderful stories about what they drew.
    I’m always amazed about #1′s drawings. She started to draw recognizably early and what I find the most interesting is that they have already so much expression. You can see people and creatures being happy or sad, moving or standing.
    These are two recent examples

    ++++

    Walton @ #92: You don’t have to justify your diet or any other part of your health to anyone. I know we’ve had problems in the past, but seriously. You know better than some internet stranger how best to maintain the Walton-machine.

    THIS.
    Especially given that food-policing is a triggering issue for many people here.

    ++++
    Re: Jason Thimbeault
    I’m don’t trying to defend his shitty behaviour on that thread. I think he was wrong and he was wrong to act like that.
    I don’t think he just listened to Josh beause he’s a guy and I have reasons to do so.
    I’m not giving him feminist cookies, indeed he doesn’t deserve them. But I can’t help liking him. *shrugs* I like a great many people who don’t deserve feminist cookies.

    Ms. Daisy Cutter
    That’s fucking shit.
    And then you get people like Grothe tell women “I wished you’d said anything, why didn’t you tell anybody?

  281. 281
    ryanwilkinson

    Caine, don’t be so bullying! All ryanwilkinson wants is for Katherine to justify her existence. The same stands for all of the other transgendered people who are here.

    What? Asking why a thing happens is in no way condemning it or asking it to ‘justify [its] existence’. It’s just … asking why a thing happens.

  282. 282
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Richard:

    Why is it that my mind immediately jumped to an image of you saying, “One plus one equals go fuck yourself”? :)

    :D

    This just made my entire day!

    (As it is, I left a word problem (yes, I know) on the whiteboard before I left work: If customer has two invoices for $A and $B and two credits for $X and $Y, how much do they owe?

    I’m hugely disappointed that I have to spend time going over this shit tomorrow morning.)

  283. 283
    chigau (違う)

    Yay Katherine!

  284. 284
    RFW

    #29 birgerjohansson says:

    Time found to be fixed to terrain for Papua New Guinea tribe http://phys.org/news/2012-06-terrain-papua-guinea-tribe.html
    The future is “uphill”, the past has flowed “downhill”

    Similar to Quechua speakers who think of the past as in front of us and the future behind us.

    But is it really all that novel? I’m sure English has temporal metaphors where progress is going uphill. And I myself often think of life as climbing a mountain; these days I’m high enough to feel the chill and sometimes look back on the sunny lowlands of youth with sorrow that they’re long gone.

  285. 285
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    RyRy:

    What? Asking why a thing happens is in no way condemning it or asking it to ‘justify [its] existence’. It’s just … asking why a thing happens.

    1) Learn to stick the fucking flounce.

    2) “its”?? I don’t have the words for what a miserable sack of shit you are. I can’t believe that you honestly thought it would be cool to use “it” to describe another poster who is clearly a transwoman.

    Just fuck off Ryan. Your hurtful actions are not welcome here.

  286. 286
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Ryan I thought you were gonna scuttle your ass back to TZT.

    I know, Rajkumar talks too much and the smell gets nauseating after a while, but them’s the rules…

  287. 287
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @ Katherine:

    I wish you well on your path. I know that when I transitioned there were a lot of hard moments (not least losing my father to trans-hatred), but I’ve gained so much since then. For 6 or 7 years in a row after I came out I could honestly say on each New Year’s that the previous year had been the best year of my life so far. May the same be true for you, and may that trend continue for much longer than I was able to sustain.

  288. 288
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Giliell: That’s adorable. The babby I speak of just turned 2 a few days ago.

    She likes it when I draw various animals for her too. And I can remember learning to draw by getting my dad to draw animals and stuff for me.

  289. 289
    ryanwilkinson

    2) “its”?? I don’t have the words for what a miserable sack of shit you are. I can’t believe that you honestly thought it would be cool to use “it” to describe another poster who is clearly a transwoman.

    Incorrect. I said ‘asking why a thing happens’, I made it more vague so as not to be specifically talking about transgenderism. I wouldn’t refer to a transperson as an ‘it’ or a ‘thing’, however reprehensible you assume me to be.

  290. 290
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    sorry for feeding the troll. Didn’t know it was identified as one.

    Crip Dyke, you have no need to apologize for that.

    While we may be accused of being a hivemind, you cannot be faulted to missing out with past encounters with all individuals.

  291. 291
    ryanwilkinson

    Ryan I thought you were gonna scuttle your ass back to TZT.

    I would, but I don’t want people to read this thread and then think; ‘Ah, Ryan’s a shitty transphobe’ when I am not.

  292. 292
    ChasCPeterson

    I guess the solution to this perceived problem is pretty simple: Read for comprehension and don’t post lies about SG. *shrug*
    I’d also appreciate it if lies weren’t posted about me.

  293. 293
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Caine,

    I think you’re missing that a lot of people are being backed into a corner and harassed with no let up.

    There are no corners on the internet. One of the great things about it is that when we get stressed out, we can close the page, or get up and go do something else and come back later.

    If SG were doing this to me in meatspace, I would have already reported him for stalking and signed out a restraining order.

    Understandably so! Because that would be weird. And I would not do that. This is not meatspace. I can’t approach you in any way.

    In case you haven’t noticed, people are desperately trying to go on with TET as usual. There’s one person here who is making that very difficult.

    You mean Happiestsadist?

  294. 294
    Inaji

    Giliell:

    These are two recent examples

    Those are wonderful! Imaginative and expressive.

    Aaaand, with that, consider me yet another person driven out of TET by SG’s continual crap. I’ve tried like hell to move on, but doing that for two TET’s in a row and working on a third? Nope.

  295. 295
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    “And with a strange smile upon his face, Ryan proceeded to unbuckle his belt. His jeans fell down around his skinny shanks almost immediately. Everyone in the room gazed in horror as he proceeded to squat, chimpanzee-style, in the middle of the floor. A look of concentration passed over his features, and he emitted a grunt or two as he defiled the carpet with his rancid feces…”

    Stop shitting in our lounge, Ryan.

  296. 296
    ChasCPeterson

    I don’t have the words for what a miserable sack of shit you are. I can’t believe that you honestly thought it would be cool to use “it” to describe another poster

    sorry for feeding the troll. Didn’t know it was identified as one.

    just juxtaposin’

  297. 297
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    What? Asking why a thing happens is in no way condemning it or asking it to ‘justify [its] existence’. It’s just … asking why a thing happens.

    Thank you for proving my point.

    You! Do! Not! Refer! To! A! Human! As! It!

  298. 298
    julian

    Realizing that there’s another huge inter pharyngula argument going on, just a wanted to share a bright moment of my day.

    Today my battalion had a safety stand down. Normally they’re dull and entirely pointless. No one discusses the underlying issues behind any of the problems we’re dealing with (the alcohol and drug presentations are always particularly bad.) I wrote them off not to long after boot camp as another example of the higher ups throwing a band aid on a sucking chest wound.

    And today was looking like just that. Until the sexual harassment and rape presentation. Not only were there actual studies cited and presented (including a reenactment of interviews between rapists and psychologists followed by a breakdown of how the rapists minimized his culpability through his words) a follow up presentation by the UVA (Uniformed Victim’s Advocate) included a breakdown of toxic masculinity and how our language and attitude towards women starts to formulate at a young age (“No boy wants to be told he throws like a girl or hits like a girl or cries like a little girl.”) and an explanation of privilege.

    The ending message was (paraphrased) “You don’t have to be a hero. Let women take the lead. Don’t shut you brain off but remember, they know more than you about what it’s like.”

    Yes. In the United States Marine Corp. I think… this is hope I am feeling.

  299. 299
    ChasCPeterson

    I’ve tried like hell to move on

    What you haven’t tried is admitting where you were wrong.

  300. 300
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Kat:
    Sorry I missed this:

    Had a good meeting with the transgender advocate today, he gave me a list of therapists in the area to help with the social, psychological aspects of the transition… this is gonna be fuun.

    *high fives!*

    RyRy:
    You know what, if being intentionally vague leads to this:

    All ryanwilkinson wants is for Katherine to justify her existence.

    Asking why a thing happens is in no way condemning it or asking it to ‘justify [its] existence’.

    then work on improving those shitty writing skills of yours. Because no matter what your intention was*, it’s still offensive.

    *JAQing off isn’t cute, either.

  301. 301
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Caine/Audley:

    Ryan was not referring to me as an ‘it.’ He was referring to “a thing” as an ‘it’ as he said “asking why a thing happens[...]”

    Thank you for the defense, though.

  302. 302
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @my 301:

    (addendum) It was a bit vague, and a terribly poor place to be vague, though.

  303. 303
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Chas:

    just juxtaposin’

    And your point?

  304. 304
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    That’s awesome, Julian! The USMC is the last place in the world I’d expect to see something like that take hold.

  305. 305
    ryanwilkinson

    You! Do! Not! Refer! To! A! Human! As! It!

    I didn’t .

    A) In none of my posts have I referred to a specific transperson, who could I possibly be calling ‘it’? By referencing back, I have been talking about transgenderism. Thus, my ‘it’ refers to transgenderism at worst, and, as I meant, to concepts as a whole
    B) If you think my ‘it’ refers to a person, why are you not also concerned that I referred to a person as a ‘thing’?
    C) I’m clearly talking about concepts here, not individual people. Unless calling transgenderism a ‘thing’, is, in some way, transphobic?

  306. 306
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I guess the solution to this perceived problem is pretty simple: Read for comprehension and don’t post lies about SG. *shrug*

    I’d also appreciate it if lies weren’t posted about me.

    Chas, back in 2010(?) when I claimed you had a habit of telling sexist jokes, you were right, I couldn’t substantiate it. FSM knows I tried.

    I’m sorry.

    Thank you for the onion.

  307. 307
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Seriously, Ryan, get back to TZT. Right now.

    I know I’m in the minority, but there’s a teeny part of me that wants to see you learn things and get better, instead of getting banned. There’s a tiny spark of hope down there. Don’t drown it in diarrhea.

    Of all the places on pharyngula, TET is the last place you want to be doing this. Especially right now.

  308. 308
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Kat:

    Thank you for the defense, though.

    If I overstepped my bounds, I apologize. I just saw that post and went all AUDLEY SMASH!

  309. 309
    RFW

    #251 ryanwilkinson says:

    And since trans-people have come up I have a question to ask.

    Are trans people wanting to switch genders because of current gender roles, or is it purely a biological want?

    I don’t know the answer, but let me give you a data point that is sure to confuse while hopefully shedding a dim light on the subject: a lesbian-identified woman turns into a gay man, hasn’t had genital surgery yet so still has a functional vagina, and enjoys PIV intercourse with gay men. As a man. [Part of me wants to crack a corny joke about "manginas", but I won't.]

    Yes, that’s real life. And he’s in the Canadian Navy as well. It speaks well for Canada that there are no issues with his shipmates – at least none I’ve heard of.

    It’s when one has personal experience of such complexities that one learns the futility of trying to label all types of human behavior. Somebody out there is sure to be mixing a label A existence with a label B existence no matter how incompatible A and B may seem.

  310. 310
    ryanwilkinson

    <blockquote @Caine/Audley:

    Ryan was not referring to me as an ‘it.’ He was referring to “a thing” as an ‘it’ as he said “asking why a thing happens[...]”

    Thank you for the defense, though.

    Thank you; and if my apparent mincing of words offended you in any way, I sincerely apologise.

  311. 311
    consciousness razor

    ryanwilkinson, fuck off to TZT or anywhere else.

    I wouldn’t refer to a transperson as an ‘it’ or a ‘thing’, however reprehensible you assume me to be.

    Then you shouldn’t have used this parallel, if you didn’t want to confuse a phenomenon with a person.

    Caine, don’t be so bullying! All ryanwilkinson wants is for Katherine to justify her existence. The same stands for all of the other transgendered people who are here.

    What? Asking why a thing happens is in no way condemning it or asking it to ‘justify [its] existence’. It’s just … asking why a thing happens.

    Instead, you actually did replace “her” with “its,” because you’re a fucking idiot and don’t stop to think long enough to edit out your idiocy.

  312. 312
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Basta. I’m calling no mas. I’m out for a while.

    But not without a Parthian shot.
    [malice]
    ChasCPeterson takes pleasure in embezzling from children’s charities.
    [/malice]

  313. 313
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Ryan
    Fuck off. Go to TZT. Learn how to use the internet.
    Come back when you’ve been allowed back amongst the trainees for decent human beings

    Caine
    Urgh shit. I’ll miss you for the time you’re absent but I can understand you well.

  314. 314
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    You need to make yourself more clear. It would help if you did not drop “it” in the middle of a quote.

    You already have a history of aggravating people here, that does not just go away.

  315. 315
    Cipher

    They are behaving in ways that they themselves find triggering. How is that not hypocritical?

    I understand what you’re trying to say, but you’ll probably want to rephrase the argument you’re making – there are in fact things that people find triggering that they don’t necessarily find unacceptable. There are smells and clothing and days and movies and places and scenes on television shows that can act as triggers for me. (I think this is fairly common.) Not to mention words – there are even a few completely innocuous ones that can set me off on a bad day. In cases like that where someone is not doing anything wrong but is triggering me anyway, if I have reason to expect that a person will care, and I don’t have another way of mitigating it, I’ll request them to stop it and explain why, but it’s not because it’s wrong by itself. So acting in a way that you would find triggering from someone else isn’t necessarily hypocritical. Acting in a way you consider wrong, abusive, and unacceptable would be, but “triggering,” no.

    Julian, that sounds amazing! I’m really glad to hear about it.

    Caine, I hope you come back :/

  316. 316
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    OK. Not at all Parthian, but more like a brick chucked over the shoulder when fleeing.

  317. 317
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Cipher OM: Point taken.

    Now, I flee.

  318. 318
    dianne

    Caine, I hope you come back :/

    Thirded or fourth or whatever number we’re up to now.

  319. 319
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Thank you; and if my apparent mincing of words offended you in any way, I sincerely apologise.

    If you want to sincerely apologize, you will not include this part: …if my apparent mincing of words offended you in any way…. This is a notpology.

  320. 320
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Chas:

    There is a tradition around here of referring to trolls as “it”. I don’t do anything parallel in meatspace and I’ve mostly avoided doing so even here on TET. But clearly I do do so at least sometimes.

    While doing this isn’t the same as challenging the humanity of a trans person for being trans, trolls are humans unless and until Turing gives out a report card with an A on it.

    You make a fair point, and I’ll give thought to my future behavior.

  321. 321
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Dammit, I’m going to miss seeing Caine here. :(

  322. 322
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    TET just ain’t the same without Caine.

    Hope the flounce ain’t permanent.

  323. 323
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I 9/2 the appreciation of Caine and the wish that she come back soon and in a reasonably healthy, happy, Caine-like incarnation.

  324. 324
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    TLC, it is not. It is just a break.

  325. 325
    D

    Apropos of nothing, I think I talked my mother out of buying into a “super cure-all berry juice” scam today. In part I used a non-confrontational approach someone once suggested on here. So, thanks to who ever it was.

  326. 326
    consciousness razor

    There is a tradition around here of referring to trolls as “it”.

    I have a feeling he was already aware of this tradition and wouldn’t be especially persuaded by appeals to it.

    While doing this isn’t the same as challenging the humanity of a trans person for being trans, trolls are humans unless and until Turing gives out a report card with an A on it.

    Don’t you mean until they get an F?

  327. 327
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    ChasCPeterson builds golf courses in the Mojave Desert.

  328. 328
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Janine: Ah, I see.

    It’s a pretty understandable reaction though.

  329. 329
    Don Quijote

    Here’s a little story from darkest Galicia for you. Last weekend my wife and I were attending the local wine festival and some friends introduced us to a friend of theirs. After spending some time talking to him he asked us if we had any children. I explained to him why we had decided not to have children many years ago and how we were content with our choice. He then turned to my wife and told her that her life was not fulfilled without children and she would regret it when she’s older. Being on the outside of a few glasses (bottles?) of wine I was feeling very benevolent, I just told him to fuck off.
    Does go to show you though what goes on in the mind of many Spanish men.

  330. 330
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Old Man Jenkins (since you change nyms so much, I’ll just use my favorite one)

    There are no corners on the internet. One of the great things about it is that when we get stressed out, we can close the page, or get up and go do something else and come back later.

    This struck me as ironic because it’s not that different from my observation about how you yourself won’t drop things. Sometimes, people who are offended, insulted, or hurt by what someone is saying find it harder to disengage, not easier. That probably explains the “fight” in “fight-or-flight”.

    I catch myself doing it all the time. Someone insults me, or I see some troll on a thread, and even though I know nothing good will come of the exchange and avoiding it would save me time and psychological well-being, I feel compelled to engage. Maybe we can call it “Someone Is An Asshole On The Internet”, a SIWOTI sub-type.

  331. 331
    Sili

    Great job, D!

    I tried suggesting something similar today.

    The drugs counsellor was talking to the kids (not a trace of “just say ‘No’”), and one mentioned that he didn’t think his friends would listen if he said, he thought they smoked too much pot.

    Incidentally, I abuse the story of son!spawn and the heirloom bong to great amusement.

  332. 332
    julian

    Does go to show you though what goes on in the mind of many Spanish men.

    Yeah. The religiosity and conservatism that permeate many Spanish and Hispanic communities doesn’t lend itself very well to respecting the life choices of others.

  333. 333
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Don Quijote @ #329: Spanish men? I’ve had men (and women) from every fucking walk of life tell me the same. Like dude who was hitting on me at the bakery while I waited for my order. The nurse before my tuba ligation (heh). The last one was some random dude who struck up a conversation while we were waiting for a flight last time I visited home. After all of two minutes of talking to me, he was somehow qualified to tell me what a great mother I would clearly be, how much I’d regret it, how there must be something wrong with my partner if he agrees with and supports me, blah blah. I cannot count the number of times it’s happened to me. If it’s a situation where I have to be polite, I just look downwards a little, and quietly say I can’t have them medically. Usually it works. Only once have I had to follow-up with, “by my own choice, which I’m proud of.”

  334. 334
    NuMad

    Bayesian probability, oh my Fucking Dog. I’m going to sprain an extraocular muscle.

  335. 335
    strange gods before me ॐ

    @Old Man Jenkins (since you change nyms so much, I’ll just use my favorite one)

    I would have kept it longer but it was getting me repeatedly stuck in the spam filter.

    This struck me as ironic because it’s not that different from my observation about how you yourself won’t drop things. Sometimes, people who are offended, insulted, or hurt by what someone is saying find it harder to disengage, not easier. That probably explains the “fight” in “fight-or-flight”.

    I totally understand that, but my point was only that it’s not like being backed into a corner. The latter is an externally-imposed restriction of liberty. An internal desire to reply comes from the individual; if they act upon it they are acting upon their own motives, rather than being restrained by others’ actions.

  336. 336
    opposablethumbs

    Kitty, yay for a successful meeting – that’s really great!

    Cipher – looking forward to it, I bet the work will be really interesting to read!

  337. 337
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    So, anyway, I watched that movie about the murder of Matthew Shepard. Cried a bit… ok, a lot.

  338. 338
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    ImaginesABeach, not that this excuses the misgendering, but newspaper style guides tend to lag behind social-justice communities in terms of what wording is considered acceptable and what is not. The best way to push them forward is to complain, either by telephone or by writing.

    Crip Dyke, it’s fine; I appreciate your taking the time you’ve already taken to write out a scenario, and I am sorry you were triggered. I’ve sent an email to a local friend who’s also in law school.

    Ryan, go away.

    AE, imagine that, some people who are tired of SG’s bullying tactics lash out in anger, as people tend to do when they’re fed up and worn down. You’d make a great “zero tolerance” principal.

    Chas, actually, the solution for me is to throw you into my killfile.

    Giliell:

    I like a great many people who don’t deserve feminist cookies.

    Fair enough.

    And then you get people like Grothe tell women “I wished you’d said anything, why didn’t you tell anybody?

    Ayep.

    TLC: ♥

    RFW:

    [Part of me wants to crack a corny joke about "manginas", but I won't.]

    You just did, asshole, despite your weasel-wording. Fuck you.

  339. 339
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    That’s pretty reasonable, Beatrice. I’ve seen a few on the subject, and cry every damn time.

  340. 340
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Don Quijote & HappiestSadist
    I admit to being a happy spawner. I love my kids. I always wanted to have them. Having to deal even shortly with the prospect of not being able to have them was horror.
    You can see, I feel strongly about it.
    Which is why people who think that they know better than the person themselves about such a fundamental thing in their lives leave me puzzled.
    Who the fuck do they think they are?

  341. 341
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Bayesian probability, oh my Fucking Dog.

    Nothing wrong with it.

    When confronted with something which can’t be proven, but about which there are multiple legitimate reasons each suggestive that one or another possibility might be true, Bayesian reasoning is a good fit.

  342. 342
    Nutmeg

    Katherine, I’m glad your meeting went well! I hope the next steps go just as smoothly.

    D:

    I think I talked my mother out of buying into a “super cure-all berry juice” scam today. In part I used a non-confrontational approach someone once suggested on here.

    Good for you! I’d love to hear more about different approaches for opposing woo in real life, if anyone has links. My usual “citation needed” approach doesn’t seem to be working very well with some people.

  343. 343
    strange gods before me ॐ

    AE, imagine that, some people who are tired of SG’s bullying tactics lash out in anger,

    This is some rank bullshit, Ms. Daisy Cutter, since what started this round is just that Giliell made a claim about facts. I responded to that claim. Some people responded to me, and I responded to them. In no way did I bully Giliell; yet some dishonest fuckers decided to start lying and claiming I was saying things I wasn’t saying.

    Earlier round started when ‘Tis lied about me, Caine repeated the lie and said it was “true enough”, and then wouldn’t retract it. Possibly because she didn’t want to upset ‘Tis, I understand that, but it was still some dishonest shit.

    I have never, never started a fight with Happiestsadist, by the way. That instigation is always one-way.

  344. 344
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    In no way did I bully Giliell;

    The only reason for that is that I refuse to engage you. I remember the last time too well.

  345. 345
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Giliell @ #340: That’s the thing, most of the happier spawners I’ve met both are 100% certain that their choice was right for them, and that they knew what they were doing, and extend me the same courtesy. They also tend to be horrified at the idea that people who don’t want them should have them anyway, in case they were wrong.

    But then, I tend to like both happy spawners and their spawn a fair bit. I also found myself liking the company of kids and finding them much cuter when I got fixed and they stopped being a threat, as it were.

    I’m just baffled as to why strangers think what other strangers are doing with their reproductive organs is the slightest bit their business. Especially in the context of flirting. (When bakery dude told me I’d make beautiful babies, I thought about bolting without my baked goods.)

  346. 346
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Soooooooooooooo

    Anything new around here?

  347. 347
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Soooooooooooooo

    Anything new around here?

    ChasCPeterson’s been strangling baby turtles with old bootlegs again.

    Oh – you said new. Never mind.

  348. 348
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    I totally understand that, but my point was only that it’s not like being backed into a corner. The latter is an externally-imposed restriction of liberty. An internal desire to reply comes from the individual; if they act upon it they are acting upon their own motives, rather than being restrained by others’ actions.

    My point was that you seemed to me to be overestimating the ability for people to disengage, which is weird to me since you’re my personal poster-boy for disengagement failure. :P

    Also, it just seems dismissive and minimizing to me to respond to people who are bothered by your behavior, even to the point of calling it triggering, with “if you don’t like it, you can leave”, and I do think that’s what you’re saying. You already showed, and it’s readily apparent anyway, that killfiling isn’t effective because people still talk to/about/quote you. That means leaving the thread is the only option, which in effect means that you shut people out of the thread. I don’t believe your personal desire for “honesty” or whatever else trumps people’s desire to participate in what’s supposed to be an open thread.

  349. 349
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Rev. BDC @ #346: Nah, same old same old.

  350. 350
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    I’m out of money for the month. Yet again.

    I thought I was getting one of them HST checks this month, but I was wrong. I thought “Well, maybe I’ll run these empty cans in for a bit extra.” But someone already did that yesterday, so there goes my last chance.

    And before anyone starts a ‘save the coyote’ fund… don’t. I’m an idiot who’ll just spend it all on pot and beer. I’m just venting. I’m not out of food or about to get evicted or anything like that.

    My stupid asshole friend was talking about buying my compound bow for 200 bucks, but he’s a stupid asshole who just talks because he gets off on the sound of his own voice, and right now I’m so fucking pissed for not going ‘Fuck you, you’re all talk and never follow through on anything you say’ the minute he floated the idea. But no, I was so jazzed by the idea that I even told him he could pay in two 100 dollar installations. Even that would be awesome. But, no.

    People are unreliable fucks and can be guaranteed to let me down just when I figure I could use a little windfall.

  351. 351
    Don Quijote

    Giliell@340

    Seems that we have it easier than HappiestSadist. If people don’t know why we don’t have children they change the subject quickly assuming, I think, that it must for medical reasons. If they do persue the subject it is my wife who is normally asked if she can’t have kids. Being a man the problem couldn’t be with me of course.
    In fact, I had the snip 37 years ago thanks to the British National Health system.

  352. 352
    strange gods before me ॐ

    The only reason for that is that I refuse to engage you. I remember the last time too well.

    What’s this now?

  353. 353
    Don Quijote

    I meant “we” as in my wife and I.

  354. 354
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Seems that we have it easier than HappiestSadist. If people don’t know why we don’t have children they change the subject quickly assuming, I think, that it must for medical reasons. If they do persue the subject it is my wife who is normally asked if she can’t have kids. Being a man the problem couldn’t be with me of course.
    In fact, I had the snip 37 years ago thanks to the British National Health system.

    We chose to forgo little pantsshitters children. Both of us can we just don’t want the little fuckers.

    I mean darlings.

    Too many things we want to do..

  355. 355
    consciousness razor

    Oh – you said new. Never mind.

    Has Chas always thought it is literally turtles all the way down? I thought that was a fairly new development.

  356. 356
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Humm. Some personal jokes creeping out there that may not be so nice.

    Sorry.

  357. 357
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Don Quijote

    Being a man the problem couldn’t be with me of course.

    Well, we all know that.

  358. 358
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    people who are bothered by your behavior, even to the point of calling it triggering

    For the record, behavior/subjects that have been called triggering lately: sg’s doggedly challenging lies (including about himself); a critical discussion of psychiatric drugs (not any discussion of psychiatric drugs – just, apparently, a critical one); an exchange about the harms caused by animal consumption (not discussions of animal consumption – just those about harms and therefore ethics)

  359. 359
    strange gods before me ॐ

    The only reason for that is that I refuse to engage you. I remember the last time too well.

    Anyone wondering what Giliell’s talking about, it’s probably this. It ends well, with her going here are my substantive points for why you’re incorrect about this issue and oh by the way if you reply to me then you’re triggering me so stfu.

  360. 360
    'Tis Himself

    Katherine Lorraine,

    Congratulations on a pleasant experience.

  361. 361
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    My goals here are the same as they’ve been for years: to point out bullshit and not be bullied into shutting up. People who don’t like it are of course welcome to ignore me.

    This confuses me. I do not pretend to understand why others are here. I am here because this is a place in which I can engage with intelligent and creative people. People with whom I can share ideas and insights. I like this place because no matter what the subject is, there are two or more people who know far more about the subject than I. And, even more important, this is a safe place in which I can be me. I am not here to prove others wrong. That just strikes me as strange.

    I thought this was a place to talk. I didn’t realize just how wrong I was. Apparently, this is a place in which I am supposed to win. To verbally beat down those that I perceive as wrong. And I should be refusing to let any slight, no matter how small, ever be forgotten. Shit.

    But then again, I am well known for knowing nothing, so you are welcome to ignore that.

    So, since I sure as hell don’t feel like this is a real safe place for me (with all of my brokens), I’m just gonna walk away.

  362. 362
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @SC

    I don’t remember seeing people call

    sg’s doggedly challenging lies (including about himself)

    itself a triggering thing, but that the way he was going about it was triggering. Would you agree or disagree that even if one is engaging in a typically non-triggering activity, they can do so in a triggering way?

  363. 363
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Ogvorbis

    I hope you don’t generalize SG’s behavior to the rest of us or onto the general atmosphere here. If I weren’t lazy, I’d quote his “I’m not one of you” spiel above. He deliberately sets himself apart.

  364. 364
    strange gods before me ॐ

    My point was that you seemed to me to be overestimating the ability for people to disengage, which is weird to me since you’re my personal poster-boy for disengagement failure. :P

    Not overestimating; it’s just that nobody else is the constraint upon their liberty. It is unfortunate and lamentable if someone has a hard time disengaging, but it’s not like being backed into a corner, and if they’re wrong, especially dishonestly or dangerously wrong, there’s no obvious reason why anyone else should stop responding.

    Also, it just seems dismissive and minimizing to me to respond to people who are bothered by your behavior, even to the point of calling it triggering, with “if you don’t like it, you can leave”, and I do think that’s what you’re saying.

    Dismissive. Not minimizing. I absolutely do not claim that their personal experience is any less bad than they say it is.

    Dismissive. Yes, but, there’s not necessarily a better option.

    I don’t believe your personal desire for “honesty” or whatever else trumps people’s desire to participate in what’s supposed to be an open thread.

    You believe their desire to keep talking shit should trump my desire to participate in what’s supposed to be an open thread?

    (It turns out to be a much harder problem than you’re perhaps envisioning.)

  365. 365
    strange gods before me ॐ

    So, since I sure as hell don’t feel like this is a real safe place for me (with all of my brokens), I’m just gonna walk away.

    Ogvorbis, that is unfortunate. I will miss you.

  366. 366
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I hope you don’t generalize SG’s behavior to the rest of us or onto the general atmosphere here.

    Others, for sure.

    The atmosphere is pretty constant, if you’re not in the right clique.

    You might be in, if you don’t see it.

  367. 367
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    it’s just that nobody else is the constraint upon their liberty.

    “Feeling backed into a corner” is a common metaphor for having someone aggressively challenge them, and this quote seems to imply an unduly literal interpretation of the phrase. I didn’t mean that people actually lack the physical ability to disengage.

    You believe their desire to keep talking shit should trump my desire to participate in what’s supposed to be an open thread?

    The people that avoid the thread because of your behavior is not limited to people who have directly engaged with you. Other people do read the posts you make.

  368. 368
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Yay Kitty! I’m so glad it went well.

  369. 369
    strange gods before me ॐ

    “Feeling backed into a corner” is a common metaphor for having someone aggressively challenge them

    And it’s useful to consider what metaphors imply, whether they’re perhaps too strong.

    I didn’t mean that people actually lack the physical ability to disengage.

    I know, I’d just prefer to not to take the metaphor for granted.

    The people that avoid the thread because of your behavior is not limited to people who have directly engaged with you. Other people do read the posts you make.

    Yes, it is lamentable.

  370. 370
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    The atmosphere is pretty constant, if you’re not in the right clique.

    You might be in, if you don’t see it.

    I don’t post or participate enough to belong to a “clique”, and I wouldn’t want to anyway. I talk to everyone here as long as they’re not an obvious troll.

  371. 371
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Oggie:

    So, since I sure as hell don’t feel like this is a real safe place for me (with all of my brokens), I’m just gonna walk away.

    :( :( :(

    Do what you gotta do, man. If this is permanent, I’m gonna miss you.

    Giliell:

    Which is why people who think that they know better than the person themselves about such a fundamental thing in their lives leave me puzzled.
    Who the fuck do they think they are?

    You know what amazes me? I’ve learned that, by and large, the people who don’t pass judgement on me in regards to the decisions I’ve made during my pregnancy and how I plan to raise DarkFetus are childless people.

    I’m not saying all parents are helicopter douche parents that think they know best for everyone, but that child-free people seem to be more likely to be more supportive/less critical and also mind their own damned business. I don’t get judged for wanting to have kids– it’s seen as my choice*.

    I guess what I’m saying that child-free people probably get criticized more, but douches like the ones in Don Quijote’s story are also probably pretty likely to criticize other parents, too.

    *The Horde parents have been universally awesome! I’m talking about people I know IRL.

  372. 372
    PZ Myers

    ryanwilkinson has been banned. The violation of his parole, the stupid cupcakery, and the disingenuous continuation of his noise after it was pointed out that he had already been warned was just too much.

    life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ: You have a history of being an obnoxious pain in the ass. Your insistence on hammering nits obsessively annoys lots of people, and you seem especially clueless in being persistently oblivious to others. Knock it off. You get a special penalty: don’t participate in TET anymore. You are clearly not a social kind of person. And if you continue, you’ll get confined to TZT…and that’s a first step towards banning.

    I’ve been zonked out of my mind all day, and I’m already feeling kind of cranky. This shit does not make me happier.

  373. 373
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I don’t remember seeing people call

    sg’s doggedly challenging lies (including about himself)

    itself a triggering thing, but that the way he was going about it was triggering.

    What do you mean by this, specifically? Could you provide some relevant quotations from him that set his behavior apart from that of others? Because, to me, none of his responses could be classified as bullying in any sense that wouldn’t make the comments about him or me far more so (leaving aside whether his are bullying at all). Do you think it’s fundamentally wrong to persistently challenge and defend yourself against lies? I mean, if you don’t want to be triggered, the solution, as CCP pointed out, is to read for comprehension and to not lie about people.

    What about the other two examples?

  374. 374
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ: You have a history of being an obnoxious pain in the ass. Your insistence on hammering nits obsessively annoys lots of people, and you seem especially clueless in being persistently oblivious to others. Knock it off. You get a special penalty: don’t participate in TET anymore. You are clearly not a social kind of person. And if you continue, you’ll get confined to TZT…and that’s a first step towards banning.

    Wow. Enough of this.

  375. 375
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    PZ:

    ryanwilkinson has been banned. The violation of his parole, the stupid cupcakery, and the disingenuous continuation of his noise after it was pointed out that he had already been warned was just too much.

    Cha-ching! Thanks, PZ! ♥!

  376. 376
    NuMad

    Well, one of these things was unexpected!

  377. 377
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    That… actually kinda makes me sad.

  378. 378
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    good grief

  379. 379
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Thank you, thank you, thank you, PZ! ♥

    Ryan was so vile.

    And that other one.

  380. 380
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Good fucking riddance to bad rubbish, as far as Ryan goes…

  381. 381
    David Marjanović

    Wow. Not going to catch up with this subthread anytime soon. It advanced at near record speed… I suppose that’s not going to continue now that sgbm has been kicked out, but still I won’t have time to deal with the present chunk of comments anytime soon.

    Giliell, bad news: Jules will leave on July 19th. :-( :-( :-(

    Jadehawk, if you haven’t fled: I spent some time in the collection of fossil vertebrates today and took lots of photos of toothy goodness from a wide variety of toothy animals. Will take some time till I can upload them somewhere, though.

  382. 382
    Cipher

    *sighs*
    *wishes for a refrigerator box again*

  383. 383
    opposablethumbs

    Ogvorbis I really really really hope you stay. You’re one of the people whose posts I hugely enjoy and get a lot out of (I mean obviously not always “enjoy” in the kittens and puppies sense, but always value); I know it’s not identical to knowing you irl, but insofar as I know you online I like you a hell of a lot.

  384. 384
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Cipher:

    Have you seen the rent on one of those things?

  385. 385
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    I hope you stay, Ogvorbis. I always really enjoyed your contributions.

  386. 386
    chigau (違う)

    Ogvorbis
    Please don’t go.

  387. 387
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    I’m just gonna take refuge in some beer and pot. I managed to scrounge fourteen bucks. With that I purchased a six pack of Extra Pale Ale. My brother loves the Extra Pale Ale, so I traded him a beer for a small amount of pot. Clever, no?

    Fucking better be… it’s literally all I have. I’ve never felt more like a mangy desperate little coyote than right now.

  388. 388
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    That, and four bucks left over. Winning?

  389. 389
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    TLC: That’s a little bit of winning. Take care, coyote.

  390. 390
    Inaji

    So, it’s safe to come back in? <sigh of relief>. Ogvorbis! Please, come sit by me, don’t go disappearing. You are one of the finest voices on Pharyngula, as well as one of the best peoples.

  391. 391
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Ogvorbis: What Audley and Opposable Thumbs said. I hope you feel able to come back soon.

    Audley:

    I’ve learned that, by and large, the people who don’t pass judgement on me in regards to the decisions I’ve made during my pregnancy and how I plan to raise DarkFetus are childless people.

    I’m childfree and I find this entirely unsurprising. As seen from the outside, intra-parental competition is really fucking scary.

    PZ, thank you so much.

    In other news, Jason Alexander demonstrates how to apologize sincerely and with grace.

  392. 392
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Wow. Enough of this.

    X2

  393. 393
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Coyote:

    Winning?

    Well, you were definitely winning over on the Real Scientists™ thread.

    As for everything else… *hugs*

  394. 394
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Also, for what it’s worth, I apologize, without reservation, for escalating things.

  395. 395
    Inaji

    TLC:

    Winning?

    Definitely winning. You know, if you have one of those knives with the handles you’ve carved, I could be persuaded to buy Mister a present…

  396. 396
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Also, for what it’s worth, I apologize, without reservation, for escalating things.

    With a porcupine. Backwards.

  397. 397
    consciousness razor

    Also, for what it’s worth, I apologize, without reservation, for escalating things.

    For what it’s worth, you reserved this until now. Would you mind saying to whom you are apologizing and which things were you escalating?

  398. 398
    Inaji

    AE:

    With a porcupine. Backwards.

    Really? Happiestsadist is not responsible for SG’s behaviour, past or present. He had every opportunity to stop and chose not to do so.

  399. 399
    Inaji

    Well, looks like I came back too soon. I think I’ll go get Mister and we’ll watch 20 Million Miles to Earth.

  400. 400
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Whatever. I’m not flouncing, but I’m disengaging for the time being.

  401. 401
    Ingdigo Jump

    Oh the Aquarium we went to on Honeymoon had BABY CUTTLEFISH!!!!

  402. 402
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Yay for the actual apology from Jason Alexander. That’s awesome that he didn’t stay doubled down like usual. A nice change.

    For those leaving: I really, really hope you come back. When you are ready and okay to come back I will try to reward you with drawings from the Little One. :3

    I’ve learned that, by and large, the people who don’t pass judgement on me in regards to the decisions I’ve made during my pregnancy and how I plan to raise DarkFetus are childless people.

    Oh good lord, so very very true. I hate other parents because of this just as much as I find their children annoying. I’m the kind that loves my own but I can’t handle other people’s children well.

    ———-
    Er, totally out of the blue question. I would love some book recommendations. I usually prefer fantasty but have read and loved some mystery and smut. Funny stuff is nice but hard to find and often hit or miss. Uh, crap. I can’t think of anything else to add. That’s not very helpful. I’ve already gone through the list on the wiki. I’m in a mode right now of “Collect ALL the THINGS” just in case my internet goes. That way I have stuff forever to read on my Nook*.

    —–
    *I’m one of those terrible Welfare Queens who has a fancy electronic thing. Had it for awhile, best present to myself evar.

  403. 403
    Evader, the parasite-infested branch on the evolutionary tree

    I’ve always assumed when PZ gets mad, he evolves into Technoviking.

  404. 404
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    HappiestSadist, Audley:

    Thanks a bunch.

    Caine: I’ll see what I can do! Are there any particular motifs or designs that would be appropriate?

  405. 405
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Ing:

    Baby cuttlefish!? Did you ‘squee’ yourself to death? I would’ve.

  406. 406
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    TLC

    Winning?

    Definitely. Especially considering where I live you can get a 6 pack of crappy beer that tastes bad but will still get you buzzed for 3 bucks.

  407. 407
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    JAL: The cheapest here is 9-10 bucks a six pack… but within that range are some surprisingly delicious beers.

  408. 408
    Ingdigo Jump

    yes! They were in a nocturnal tank and were all transparent and big eyes! The Aquarium is hoping to raise them up and establish a breeding population. If they can do it I imagine that’ll be a great exhibit, Cuttlefish are awesome.

    I also have vid of their Octopus

  409. 409
    dianne

    *I’m one of those terrible Welfare Queens who has a fancy electronic thing.

    Oh, come on. A nook hardly even counts as a technotoy. But shouldn’t you have a phone so your social worker and potential employers (if you’re on the job market) can reach you? Why don’t we have government sponsored cell phones for the 99%?

  410. 410
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Daisy:

    I’m glad you’re talking with someone who is local to you and may have a lot more insight into the limits of libel and slander than I do.

    Ogvorbis:

    Okay, this is selfish and makes me look petty, but I often don’t notice the ‘nyms as I’m reading. I’m reading the story and not every post needs to be connected to a person. Sometimes I even read multiple posts that are important to connect with a single person – and I do connect them, but only to each other as “the posts about X by the person who experienced/is talking about X”. The author isn’t identified separately in any other way.

    Since November or so I’ve been getting gradually better about recognizing names of people involved in TET, but I’m still far, far from knowing even the majority of people who are repeat commenters – in part because you don’t have to post often to be noticed around here by the super-regulars (Caine in particular has an amazing memory for ‘nyms and their posting histories). And it’s statistically very probable, though I haven’t done a study, that there are a lot more people that post 20 times a year than 1-20 times a day.

    Why is this relevant? Your nym – having already a strong association in my mind and also by being shorter than most and so sticking out – was one of the very first ‘nyms recognizable to me. In short, you, chigau, and Caine were the first “people” I read because you were the first persons who had a series of comments on separate threads and separate subjects associated in a continuously updating way with a single identity.

    I know that I don’t know “you”, that I only know your comments here, but while it was the general usefulness and argumentation-not-people focus of Pharyngula that initially hooked me, I would never have become a TET commenter without feeling like I was becoming part of a community and that took getting to know “people” instead of just “threads” or “comments”. In fact, to the extent I would have commented at all, it would have been less often and probably my most useful posts wouldn’t have been – they would have been shorter and more matter-of-fact, where I learned from chigau and others that being *only* matter of fact isn’t the way I produce my best contributions here.

    I will seriously miss you while you are gone and I hope to see you back again.


    @Audley

    I helped raise a girl that kind of became my goddaughter (there was no christening and no official goddaughtering, that’s just the best word to describe it that I have). I was a parent in a very real sense for a couple years, though I was never called ‘Mom’. Then I was without children in my home for years. Now I have a girlfriend that has two kids. Though it would be weird not to call us partners, we won’t be living together for another month and there are conceivably things that could make it impossible to live together. It’s “trial” in a very serious sense, but not in the sense that I *expect* it to fail.

    And so I’ve been cultivating a relationship with the littles and though people talk about how hard it is to be an instant parent, I don’t find the difficulties any greater than suddenly caring for an infant. But it would be wrong to call me a “parent” to these two as of yet.

    This is all to say, I don’t know what category I fit in – childless or parent – but I’m terribly excited for DF and terribly disappointed you’ve had to put up with the judgement you’ve encountered from those parents with whom you interacted IRL.

    :hugs:

  411. 411
    Inaji

    TLC:

    Caine: I’ll see what I can do! Are there any particular motifs or designs that would be appropriate?

    I just asked him. After getting a rather blank face for a few minutes, he laughed and said “peace signs!”

  412. 412
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Ing:

    Squeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

  413. 413
    Cipher

    [habitual Buffy reference]“Why do we always have to yell?!”[/habitual Buffy reference]

  414. 414
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Oh, come on. A nook hardly even counts as a technotoy. But shouldn’t you have a phone so your social worker and potential employers (if you’re on the job market) can reach you? Why don’t we have government sponsored cell phones for the 99%?

    There are those TracPhones which you get 250 minutes per month free. I’m trying to get one of those. It’s certainly better than nothing.

    Of course, I just had to pawn all the really fancy shit that I could part with a couple months ago. Really fancy meaning the ps2 and the working dvd player.

    Wait… Does that mean I lose my Welfare Queen status? *pout*

    WAIT! I get to keep it since I’m one of those dirty slutty ones cuz I had a “man” (re:child’s father in all but name) help me out! Oh Oh Oh! I also got alcohol for me at one time and bought a cake on foodstamps!

    Yeahhhhhhhhh winning! XD

  415. 415
    Ingdigo Jump

    Sadly no pictures, due to nocturnal tank making them look just like adorable blue blurs on flim :(

  416. 416
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Okay, I’m sharing this with TET.

    Voodoo Mon Amour – Diablo Swing Orchestra.

    How is it I haven’t heard of this band until yesterday?! They are clearly fucking awesome!

  417. 417
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Caine: Seriously? I can do a bunch of peace signs. I kinda like the symbolic juxtaposition.

    Unfortunately though… I don’t have anything to work with right now unless I start from scratch on something. But I do have an old worn-out file. And a firepit…

    I still so far don’t feel ‘brave’ enough to make any promises… but I would be pretty honored if you of all people had my first proper forged knife.

    The steps I’m envisioning in my mind aren’t so hard. Getting the fire hot enough in this piss-poor weather might be, but I’ll burn that bridge when I come to it.

  418. 418
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Ing:

    Fail!

    It’s okay, I saw pictures on Google Images, though it’s sad cause they also have baby cuttlefish skewers :(

  419. 419
    Inaji

    TLC:

    Caine: Seriously? I can do a bunch of peace signs. I kinda like the symbolic juxtaposition.

    Seriously. That’s just what Mister was thinking. :D You don’t need to make promises, just let me know when you have something and I’ll be glad to buy it.

  420. 420
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    J_A_L

    Are you in the PNW? I have a lot of stuff to get rid of if I’m going to fit in one apartment with Ms Crip Dyke and the girls. Including TV, VCR and DVD player/recorder (yes, recording on DVD).

    In fact, if anyone here needs furniture or devices that you might encounter at a moving or estate sale, there’s a chance I have what you need. If you’re close enough, you can come grab it. Let me know if you’re interested.

  421. 421
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    TLC – you make forged knives with your own carved handles?

    I have one Michael Hemmer knife and gave one to my sweetie. But they are both chef’s knives. Something smaller like a largish paring knife would rock my world & I’d be honored to get one after you make one for Caine & Mr.

  422. 422
    Aratina Cage

    Jason Alexander’s awful joke on the late-night talk show came as a shock to me. After watching Love! Valour! Compassion!, I would never have thought he would make a joke like that. It didn’t seem right coming from him, especially if you knew about his past public statements on the matter like in this interview he did for the film I just mentioned. Glad to see the apology, though.

  423. 423
    Inaji

    Crip Dyke, JAL is in Arizona.

  424. 424
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    J_A_L:

    I would love some book recommendations. I usually prefer fantasty but have read and loved some mystery and smut.

    Book recs? I think I might be able to help. I don’t read epic fantasy, but if you’re in the mood for “light” fantasy, I can definitely give you some book ideas!

    I can’t recommend Johannes Cabal: The Necromancer by Jonathan L Howard enough. (I think Birger is a big fan, too.)

    The Fuller Memorandum by Charles Stross and The Devil You Know by Mike Carey are both the first books in pretty decent series.

    Everything I’ve read so far by A. Lee Martinez has been very entertaining.

    And if you haven’t read either Neverwhere or American Gods by Neil Gaiman, you need to do so as soon as possible!

    I read a lot of mystery, too, leaning towards crime dramas. The Bone Collector by Jeffery Deaver was pretty good, but I haven’t been wowed by the others in the Lincoln Rhyme series.

    Gone, Baby, Gone and A Drink Before The War by Dennis Lehane are good– he also wrote Mystic River and Shutter Island (avoid The Given Day like it’s the fucking plague. Total snooze fest).

    In The Woods by Tana French is pretty enjoyable, but very different from American crime novels. I haven’t read her other books, yet.

    Humor: Probably my all time favorite would be Fool by Christopher Moore.

    Sorry. Went on a bit of a rant there. :-/

  425. 425
    David Marjanović

    Because I’m too stupid to go to bed, here’s pseudorandom stuff from last subthread:

    I hear you about the comforter thing. I don’t understand how people can sleep without that sort of pressure. I wish there was such a thing as non-warm comforters for the summertime. I like having a pillow one the side of me.

    I simply sleep on my belly. That way, I only need the empty cover of a blanket when it’s too hot for a blanket.

    Two words:

    Naked snuggling.

    Requires two people.

    What?!? But you do matter! *hugs&chocolate*

    I didn’t mean to say that I don’t matter to any people. *munch* *munch* *hug* ^_^

    Speaking of which, I had to resubmit the matter-ful PNAS paper. Turns out submission isn’t done by e-mail, but by a web form, as I originally expected; the link to the web form is hidden deep in the Instructions to Authors, while the e-mail address and other contact information are the first thing under the headline of the relevant chapter of the Instructions. Fortunately the PNAS staff pointed this out to me in time (there’s a deadline on submitting Letters; in my case it’s next week).

  426. 426
    David Marjanović

    Cipher, I think there’s a Cipher-sized space in my cupboard. *blanket* *hug*

  427. 427
    Inaji

    Audley:

    And if you haven’t read either Neverwhere or American Gods by Neil Gaiman, you need to do so as soon as possible!

    Enthusiastically seconded! I’ll also add Stardust and The Graveyard Book by Gaiman and Good Omens by Pratchett and Gaiman.

    Also on the fantasy front, with a dose of romance: Heart of Stone, House of Cards and Hands of Flame by C.E. Murphy.

  428. 428
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Two words:

    Naked snuggling.

    Requires two people.

    yet benefits from even more…

    Okay, that’s an assumption on my part, but clothed snuggling benefits from multiple people for sure.

    If “requires two people” was supposed to carry a pessimistic connotation, however, my sympathies. I only get “enough” snuggles when I have something else tremendously important to do. Like finish 2 papers I have to submit in the next 2 weeks. Oy.

  429. 429
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Crip Dyke:
    Thank you so much. *hugs and snuggles back* :)

    I can’t begin to describe how much I appreciate the support you (and everyone else!) have shown me so far. I know that I’m not going to be judged negatively for factors out of my control* or the choices I make.

    I feel like if something were to happen and I lost DarkFetus, no one here would second guess me or make me feel like it was my fault. People I know IRL, on the other hand…

    What I’m saying is that you guys rock!

    *Seriously. I got sneered at for having swollen ankles by my asshole sister last week.

  430. 430
    Inaji

    Crip Dyke:

    If “requires two people” was supposed to carry a pessimistic connotation

    It doesn’t, it’s simply factual. David has not been in relationship of that type.

  431. 431
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    The Laughing Coyote #350: if I recall correctly, you’re in my neck of the woods – if so I’m open to hang out and bring along some beer sometime, work schedule permitting.

  432. 432
    Inaji

    Audley:

    *Seriously. I got sneered at for having swollen ankles by my asshole sister last week.

    Oh FFS, you have no control over that. Tell asshole sister she needs to stuff a sock in her mouth.

  433. 433
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    JAL: The cheapest here is 9-10 bucks a six pack…

    …if you insist on buying them cold.

    Non-picky people can get a six pack for about $8 from the government store :P

  434. 434
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    David:

    I simply sleep on my belly.

    This is a huge part of why I can’t sleep anymore. I always used to sleep on my tummy, but for obvious reasons I can’t anymore. Now I just can’t get comfortable. :(

    Naked snuggling.

    Requires two people.

    Or a person and a cat, if you’re more into more of the awwwwwwe, cute! snuggle-time and less of the bom chicka wah waaaaah! snugglege.

    Here, take one of mine! *hands over Maggie!*

  435. 435
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    TLC – you make forged knives with your own carved handles?

    I have one Michael Hemmer knife and gave one to my sweetie. But they are both chef’s knives. Something smaller like a largish paring knife would rock my world & I’d be honored to get one after you make one for Caine & Mr.

    Learning to. A lot of my blades are actually ‘ground’ rather than forged… it’s a way to make swords from leafsprings and such.

    But I want to learn to forge more. My brother made an unbelievable file knife that people beg to buy off him, and neither of us have any training beyond internet articles or youtube videos and practice.

    The thing about cooking knives, is that they generally need to be stainless steel. I prefer carbon steel for everything myself, but in general a cooking knife needs to be able to handle being wet without rusting up. I have no idea how to work stainless. Is it just like carbon steel? Does anyone know?

    Anyways… what I could do (for a fair bit less money I might add) is get a premade stainless blade from somewhere and try to put a good handle on it. I’m pretty sure I have one or two kicking around…

    I totally understand if it’s not as cool as something I made myself from scratch, and in the future I’d surely try to expand my skill set to this sort of thing, but cooking knives are an art unto themselves really.

  436. 436
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Setar: it’s less the temperature, and more the ‘walking distance’.

    But perhaps I’d be wise to heed your advice just the same.

    It’s just that lugging a case on your shoulder can get very tiring.

  437. 437
    Inaji

    TLC:

    I have no idea how to work stainless. Is it just like carbon steel? Does anyone know?

    Stainless is higher in nickel content, so working stainless, it’s tougher and subject to galling, smearing of the metal. It will discolour easily, but that can polished out.

  438. 438
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Bah.

    The “heavy comforters” thing is common for those on the autism spectrum; I know I’m one of those people.

    And a few other things… or something.

    Also– call me “thunk”.

    Just thunk.

    (no quotes obviously)

  439. 439
    carlie

    Crip Dyke, could you email me at carliesinternet at yahoo? I’ve been looking for a working vcr for some time, so if there’s any way that giving you a decent price for it plus mailing costs isn’t ridiculous for my budget, I’d totally do it.

  440. 440
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Audley: What the everloving shit is wrong with your sister? That’s what pregnancy tends to do, as I understand. Also, not remotely under your control. Additional also: who the fuck sneers at people’s ankles? They’re fucking ankles!

  441. 441
    SallyStrange

    I often don’t notice the ‘nyms as I’m reading. I’m reading the story and not every post needs to be connected to a person. Sometimes I even read multiple posts that are important to connect with a single person – and I do connect them, but only to each other as “the posts about X by the person who experienced/is talking about X”. The author isn’t identified separately in any other way.

    So glad I’m not the only one who does this! I’m also working on it and getting better.

  442. 442
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    consciousness razor:

    Ibex not. Not sure what game the otters are playing, but as far as rhino, they are ray bunch of cheetahs.

    I suck at punning, so I’m not going to even try. You folks are cracking me up though. Wading through TET is giving me a fun headache.
    Especially when I read half your comment in ‘my’ voice, and the last part of it in Scooby Doo’s voice (pretty sure he’d say ‘rhino’).

  443. 443
    drbunsen, le savant fous

    Ogvorbis

    Enjoy your break, but I would be sadface if you were not to return.

    TLC, have you ever made glass knives? Just curious.

  444. 444
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Caine:

    Tell asshole sister she needs to stuff a sock in her mouth.

    *sigh* I know I should, but it’s tough. I know this is going to sound totally horrible of me, but I pity her to a certain extent. She’s a few years older than I am and childless, and I’m starting to think that’s not by choice. Which would go a long way to explaining why she’s been such an asshole to me these past few months.

    She’s turned child-bearing into a competition, in other words, without telling the rest of us that there was even a game being played.

    So, I’ve just been handling it by excusing myself and doing my best to ignore her. I don’t want to cause her more hurt and I’m not the most tactful person when it comes to that shit.

    But, yeah, she’s still being a mega asshole and handling her feelings towards me very immaturely.

  445. 445
    Cipher

    Oh, I forgot about that conversation. ImaginesaBeach! I’ve considered a weighted blanket and in fact want one quite a lot, but they seem very expensive so I keep putting it off. It’s on the list though, for when I have my own place, right before “refrigerator box.”

  446. 446
    SallyStrange

    who the fuck sneers at people’s ankles? They’re fucking ankles!

    This will make you sad.

    There is literally no part of a woman’s body that is immune to shaming.

  447. 447
    Inaji

    Audley, sounds like you simply need to tell her something along the lines of “look, I know you have problems when it comes to having kids, but you need to stop projecting all that on me.”

    Then again, that might be looking for too much trouble with a sister. As a childfree person myself, I have zero interest in giving people shit about pregnancy or parenting.

    It’s a tough situation for you. *hugses*

  448. 448
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    DrBunsen: Glass knives? Ummmm…

    As I said… no training beyond youtube videos and internet articles.

    I’m significantly less advanced than the average iron age blacksmith, considering they made hinges, frying pans, horseshoes, hammers, nails, etc. in addition to cool blades. But I feel it’s a good goal to shoot for, at least.

    They didn’t have google in the iron age, after all.

  449. 449
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    drbunsen: However… depending on your definition of a glass knife…

    Stone-age knapping is another thing I’d like to learn. Guess what can be knapped? Glass bottoms of bottles. It’s difficult though, and needs to be done outdoors somewhere where people don’t walk. Little glass blade flakes are no joke.

  450. 450
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Okay. I finally read through most of this subthread…what I could stomach.

    PZ, thank you. After reading the subthread, I can’t see how not banning him at least from TET would be unjustified.

    SC, AE, fuck you. By trying to bullysplain for SG you are both just as bad as him. Comments 192 and 195. Seriously. How the fuck can you defend someone who thinks that abuse doesn’t apply outside of intimate relationships? That’s fucking horrible. Last time I checked standards for dealing with other people applied to everyone, not just those we agree with or have some level of intimacy with.

    One wonders if the both of you would stand up and defend a harassment policy for this blog =/

  451. 451
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    TLC #436:

    Setar: it’s less the temperature, and more the ‘walking distance’.

    But perhaps I’d be wise to heed your advice just the same.

    It’s just that lugging a case on your shoulder can get very tiring.

    I have a backpack with proper straps for that reason.

    ‘Course, I also live in Langley and am thus used to walking.

  452. 452
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    J_A_L, I’ve been reading Jacqueline Carey’s Kushiel series, which is set in an alternative-universe medieval Europe (and Asia and Africa). The first trilogy is superb, although the very first book moves slowly in its first third, and it can be difficult to get into the ornate narrative style of the protagonist. The second trilogy is very good, with a simpler narrative style. The third, which takes place a century later, is good but not as good as the previous two.

    Guy Gavriel Kay’s Tigana, another fantasy novel, is gorgeous and heartbreaking.

    “Smut” covers a lot of ground. You might want to take a look at Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, which reviews mainly romances, but romance is itself a diverse genre nowadays. There are also anthologies out there of fantasy erotica and horror erotica, if those seem interesting. Of course, you could always just go to a site like Literotica.com, but you’d have to wade through a lot of really bad writing.

  453. 453
    Cipher

    How the fuck can you defend someone who thinks that abuse doesn’t apply outside of intimate relationships? That’s fucking horrible.

    Certain standards for what constitutes abuse do only apply in intimate relationships.

  454. 454
    Cipher

    Sigh. SIWOTI. Reflex.
    On the bright side, I have written two pages of my paper in a way that I think is perfectly sufficient (except it lacks citations)!
    Off to eat comfort food.

  455. 455
    Inaji

    Daisy:

    Guy Gavriel Kay’s Tigana

    Yes. I’ll add Guy Gavriel Kay’s Ysabel.

  456. 456
    carlie

    I’ve been given a familial “no” on the vcr, so it’s still up for grabs.

    Audley – you’re being very considerate of your sister and her feelings. Maybe you can practice something neutral like “Thank you for being concerned” or something for a standard reply that isn’t snarky but also doesn’t engage.

  457. 457
    Inaji

    Cipher:

    Certain standards for what constitutes abuse do only apply in intimate relationships.

    Sure, however, that has nothing to do with abuse which takes place in non-intimate relationships, nor does it have anything to do with attempting to weasel out of abusive behaviour.

  458. 458
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    I haven’t (yet) read Ysabel, the latter two Sarantium books, or Under Heaven.

    A few caveats about GGK: He is not above “fridging” his female characters (killing them off to produce Man Pain, or using rape as a plot device), or creating major female characters who are there to look pretty and beguile teh menz but who don’t have much depth or personality (e.g., Cordeliane). He also has this irritating tendency to match/marry off characters randomly at the end of novels. He can also be a bit heavy-handed in his moralizing, as in A Song for Arbonne, and in his foreshadowing. Still worth reading, IMO.

  459. 459
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Sure, however, that has nothing to do with abuse which takes place in non-intimate relationships, nor does it have anything to do with attempting to weasel out of abusive behaviour.

    Hence my fuck you to AE and SC, for defending SG despite comments 192 and 195 where he went flat-out ‘I’m not being abusive, my accusers are!

    Seriously, how is that not a fucking tell?

  460. 460
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    [FYI: Icky pregnancy details]
    HappiestSadist:

    That’s what pregnancy tends to do, as I understand. Also, not remotely under your control. Additional also: who the fuck sneers at people’s ankles? They’re fucking ankles!

    Well, a lot of those types of things* have happened earlier than “the norm”, although it’s been nothing to worry about. For instance, I started to “show” before my fourth month, even though my weight gain has been right on target. I had sciatic pain and abdominal ligament pain during my first trimester, which usually doesn’t occur until later in pregnancy. Same thing with the swollen ankles– it’s usually not a problem until closer to the end of the second trimester.

    So, my asshole sister notices these things and decides it must be because I’m Doin’ It Rong™. I’m guessing that sneering at the swollen ankles is just a part of her criticism of my overall weight, even though the swelling has fuck all to do with how much weight I’ve gained.

    Sally:

    There is literally no part of a woman’s body that is immune to shaming.

    Ugh. Tell me about it.

    I hovered over the link and nope, not gonna go there. I have a decent amount of respect for Hillary Clinton and everyone who wants to criticize her for anything other than her job as Secretary of State can seriously go fuck themselves.

    Caine:

    Then again, that might be looking for too much trouble with a sister.

    Oh, it’ll come out eventually, I’m sure. Hopefully, I won’t just lose my shit at her, but if I do… *shrugs*

    As a childfree person myself, I have zero interest in giving people shit about pregnancy or parenting.

    And that’s why I ♥ you! *hugs back!*

    *If I was talking about anything but pregnancy, I’d say “symptoms”, but I feel like that’s not quite the right word to use here.

  461. 461
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    @329:

    He then turned to my wife and told her that her life was not fulfilled without children and she would regret it when she’s older.

    That’s just…just…so stupidly fucking insulting. What does the babble say about judging others…?

  462. 462
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Beatrice:

    So, anyway, I watched that movie about the murder of Matthew Shepard. Cried a bit… ok, a lot.

    Wait. There was a movie about him? Was this a theatrical release? I don’t turn on the tv much anymore so I wasn’t aware of this.
    Reminds me that I also need to see ‘Bully’.

  463. 463
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Beatrice:
    I just realized you may have been referring to The Laramie Project…

  464. 464
    consciousness razor

    That Jason Alexander fellow, he sure knows how to sincerely apologize and to say what the apology is for, wouldn’t you say, happiestsadist?

    ———

    Last time I checked standards for dealing with other people applied to everyone, not just those we agree with or have some level of intimacy with.

    We’ll have to remember that the next time we relentlessly stomp on a goddist every time they appear in a thread.

  465. 465
    PZ Myers

    NEW RULES, just to clarify things:

    I’m not changing how I moderate most threads (lazily & minimally).

    From now on, TET will be moderated more heavily. This is a social thread — it will be a safe place for friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement. It is not the place for squabbling. If you’re looking for a fight, go to any other thread and have at it…but when tempers start to rise here, back off.

    If you just want to rip into someone without concern that I’ll shut you down, go to TZT. That will not be a safe place, you can be cranky and vicious all you want there.

    OK? TET will be the living room of the house, with fluffy pillows and soothing art on the walls and a joke book on the coffee table. The rest of the blog house will be boxing rings with some rules, but a general understanding that roughness will occur. TZT is the danger room in the basement with knives and swords on the wall and gutters & drains to make it easy to clean up the blood.

    Jeez, whoever designed my house is a madman. But that’s the way it is, accept it or find a different house to play in.

  466. 466
    SallyStrange

    Audley, I’m sure it was the right decision; there’s no need to relive sexist bullshit. I mean, I remember the campaign, and I’m sure you do too.

    What does the babble say about judging others…?

    Based on how Christians act, I’m pretty sure it says it’s totes okay as long as you’re Doing It For Jesus™.

  467. 467
    Inaji

    He then turned to my wife and told her that her life was not fulfilled without children and she would regret it when she’s older.

    As I’ve said before, many a time, I’ve dealt with my fair share of assholes when it comes to being childfree. Every time I heard “What if you change your mind?” or “You’ll change your mind”, my response was to wait 3 beats and ask “What if you change yours?”. Always shuts ‘em up.

    The same thing will work for the whole ‘regret’ business.

  468. 468
    drbunsen, le savant fous

    Janine #8

    D:

    How could you. I’m in agony here.

  469. 469
    carlie

    I’ve considered a weighted blanket and in fact want one quite a lot, but they seem very expensive so I keep putting it off.

    Are you handy with a sewing machine? You could make one out of a big bag of cracked corn or birdseed (even better, because you can choose small rounded seeds, and super cheap if you have an ag supply store where you can buy from bulk bins) and a couple of big pieces of material. The trick is to make it in 4-5 inch squares so that the seed can’t shift around much. There would be a few ways to do it so as not to have quite the pain of making a couple dozen little pouches separately and then joining them. Decent fabric from the clearance bin and cheap birdseed and you could probably make one for about $30 or under.

  470. 470
    drbunsen, le savant fous

    Lost through tagfail in my previous is the fact that this is a Good Thing.

  471. 471
    SallyStrange

    Your architect is a mad genius, PZ! I’d like to hire him/her, as the plans for my own dream house are quite similar.

  472. 472
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Sally:

    I mean, I remember the campaign, and I’m sure you do too.

    *sigh*

    Yeah, I do. You remember her Senate campaign? While I don’t even remember who the fuck her opponent was, I remember the press going after her viciously.

    PZ,
    So… kind of like the “love” and “hate” threads again? I can live with that.

  473. 473
    Inaji

    Jeez, whoever designed my house is a madman. But that’s the way it is, accept it or find a different house to play in.

    Works for me.

  474. 474
    Ichthyic

    TZT is the danger room in the basement with knives and swords on the wall and gutters & drains to make it easy to clean up the blood.

    what’s the safety word?

  475. 475
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    You must mean #28, drbunsen.

    I warned you that you would regret it. I am not to blame.

    *raspberry*

  476. 476
    Inaji

    CR:

    That Jason Alexander fellow, he sure knows how to sincerely apologize and to say what the apology is for, wouldn’t you say, happiestsadist?

    Oh FFS, give it a rest.

    We’ll have to remember that the next time we relentlessly stomp on a goddist every time they appear in a thread.

    Right, because we’re constantly dealing with them on TET.

  477. 477
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Ichthyic, safety words are for wusses.

  478. 478
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    SallyStrange: I know there’s all kinds of “cankle” (ugh, hate that term)-policing, but what the fuck? I mean, even taking into account the bullshit that is the idea that cankles are a thing that matter and people get to comment on them, it’s a part of what pregnancy does. It seems to me like sneering at a pregnant woman’s belly for being “too big”. Like an extra serving of shit on top of the usual body-judging.

    Audley: I didn’t know that, actually. I admit, I find the process itself kind of fascinating, in the way that I find most things bodies do interesting.

    PZ: Thanks for the rule and the update.

  479. 479
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Icthyic

    Cuttlefish…duh!

  480. 480
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ichthyic:

    what’s the safety word?

    Orangutang.

  481. 481
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Your architect is a mad genius, PZ! I’d like to hire him/her, as the plans for my own dream house are quite similar.

    SallyStrange, ask for Bloody Stupid Johnson. I am sure that Caine could help to find him.

  482. 482
    chigau (違う)

    I have a picture of PZ smacking his palm with his riding crop and saying,
    “You will play NICE!”
    I’ll be in my bunk.

  483. 483
    Amblebury

    Safety word? It’s here Ichthyic:

    http://incorrectaynrandquotes.tumblr.com/page/2

  484. 484
    SallyStrange

    what’s the safety word?

    “John Galt.”

  485. 485
    Inaji

    Janine:

    I am sure that Caine could help to find him.

    No, I won’t! Bloody menace, that one. Go to take a nice shower and the things that happen…

  486. 486
    carlie

    PZ, that sounds like a great idea to me.

    As for the weighted blanket, now that I’m thinking more about it, you wouldn’t need squares if you did all rows, but making tubes that are narrow enough that any seed in them wouldn’t be able to shift much. It would make for a blanket that is a lot firmer and less pliable, though, because they would need to be packed pretty full whereas squares could be a little more floppy and half-3/4 full.

    Child 2 (the Aspie) also loves weight on him; when he was little, his way of coping with the world was to go crawl under his bed, but not under the whole bed – he’d crawl inbetween the mattress and the boxspring so that the entire mattress was on top of him.

  487. 487
    Amblebury

    Ah SNAP Sally!

  488. 488
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Carlie, you gave me a flimsy excuse to link to a Neko Case song. Whip The Blankets.

  489. 489
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    I did not know that weighted blankets were a thing until today. This is why I love TET. Now I want one. Hmm, the Mr. feels the same way about blankets and their necessity, so he could in theory go for it.

    Carlie @ #486: That sounds like the kind of thing I loved as a little kid. Though I’m neurotypical aside from the whole crazy thing.

  490. 490
    Ichthyic

    Ichthyic, safety words are for wusses.

    guess it’s time to dust off the plate armor.

    :P

    “John Galt.”

    HA!

  491. 491
    SallyStrange

    Ah SNAP Sally!

    JINX!

  492. 492
    PZ Myers

    There is no safe word.

    You can try to use one in TZT, but I will take it as an invitation to whip you harder.

  493. 493
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Ichthyic, ask Buffybot where that line came from.

  494. 494
    Ichthyic

    what happens when there is no safety word…

    and he was even armored with not one, but TWO neoprene suits!!

  495. 495
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I am now picturing PZ as a dominatrix.

    *shudders*

  496. 496
    consciousness razor

    Right, because we’re constantly dealing with them on TET.

    I’m afraid I don’t see how that’s irrelevant.

  497. 497
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Janine: I, on the other hand, am finding myself strangely intrigued.

  498. 498
  499. 499
    Ichthyic

    I am now picturing PZ as a dominatrix.

    yeah, I think he already showed us the headgear part…

  500. 500
    Cipher

    My emotional confusion is so large.
    *fixation* …Can the living room have a refrigerator box?

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