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Jun 04 2012

Episode CCCXXXIV: Eject! Eject! Eject!

I knew this was going to happen. It’s been a long day and night of travel, and of course you filled up the endless thread. So quick! Get out!

(Episode CCCXXXIII: Eyjafjallajökull.)

877 comments

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  1. 501
    consciousness razor

    I meant I don’t see how that’s relevant, obviously.

  2. 502
    Ichthyic

    I am now picturing PZ as a dominatrix.

    well, he has the headgear covered?

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2012/05/icelandichat.jpg

  3. 503
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    carlie:

    Maybe you can practice something neutral like “Thank you for being concerned” or something for a standard reply that isn’t snarky but also doesn’t engage.

    You seriously rock my world. I’ll give this a shot next time I get frustrated with her. :)

    HappiestSadist:

    I mean, even taking into account the bullshit that is the idea that cankles are a thing that matter and people get to comment on them, it’s a part of what pregnancy does. It seems to me like sneering at a pregnant woman’s belly for being “too big”. Like an extra serving of shit on top of the usual body-judging.

    Well, yeah. That part of the fun of being pregnant. I’ve been criticized for my belly being “too big” and for showing too early.

    There’s still plenty of shaming over appearance. If, heaven forbid, you carry more fat than just the perfectly round belly bump and slightly larger breasts, you’re disgusting. If your ankles swell, you’ve “let yourself go”. If you’re not spending the time to put makeup on or you don’t dress as snappily (ha!) or you look tired or your hair’s not perfectly styled… well, what the fuck is wrong with you? You might be in pain, fighting depression, fatigued, nauseous, whatever but you absolutely can’t cut yourself some slack! That would be wrong.

    It’s almost like there’s a super femininity that goes along with being pregnant. I mean, if you don’t do everything in your power to look as attractive as possible at all times*, you’re letting yourself and everyone around you down. So, not only do you have to look like you’re putting more effort into looking attractive, you’ve gotta do it when you feel like you’re gonna barf constantly.

    It’s like you have to apologize to the world for daring to be less than perfect appearance wise.

    *Including dressing in impractical clothing and shoes, working out to stay “toned”, watching every single calorie you consume, etc etc.

  4. 504
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    PZ, I have a question?

    Would you be a dominatrix at our next OM Initiation Orgy?

  5. 505
    Cipher

    Also, I dunno how to use a sewing machine, unfortunately :(

  6. 506
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    OM Initiation Orgy

    How do I keep missing those things??

    If my invitation gets “lost in the mail” one more time, I’m gonna cry. :(

  7. 507
    Jessa

    Carlie @486

    A few years ago, I made a weighted blanket for a friend’s son. She made the weight-filled 6″x6″ pouches, and I sewed a blanket with individual pockets to hold them. That way the pouches could be removed for washing.

  8. 508
    PZ Myers

    Oh, come now. A male would be called a dominator.

    Actually, a dominator, SIR.

  9. 509
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Audley:

    I’ve been criticized for my belly being “too big” and for showing too early.

    I nearly spit my drink out when I read that! How rude of some people.

  10. 510
    Inaji

    CR, it’s relevant because we don’t deal with goddists in TET very often. As PZ said, this is our social thread. Being stalked and harassed is bad enough, but to do it in TET drives people away from what most consider to be a safe space.

    I get the feeling you’re discounting how people like Pteryxx and Ogvorbis feel about what SG did (and has done in the past, in regard to TET). I also get that you’re disregarding SG’s treatment of myself. I didn’t apologize in a manner he liked, so I had a ton of bullshit aimed at me. I realize you don’t see this the same way I do, however, SG having the nerve to say his purpose here was to see he wasn’t bullied while his major tactic is bullying others was too rich for words.

    Like many others, I come to TET to relax, blow off steam and get involved in all manner of conversations. I do not need someone to decide to follow me here so they can exercise their grudge holding.

    Now, it’s fucking enough. I’m uncomfortable even discussing this further, as I have tried like hell to disengage from the whole thing (and SG) for almost three TETs now. Unless you plan to pick up SG’s harass the fuck out of ‘em until they give policy, it’s best to simply move on from here. Well, that’s best for me. If you do plan on picking up SG’s policy, I will have absolutely nothing more to say.

  11. 511
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    PZ, what would be the fun of that?

  12. 512
    niftyatheist, perpetually threadrupt

    Evening Everyone,

    Katherine, I am so happy to hear that your consultation went well! ((happyhugs!))

    Julian, Your story about the USMC seminar(?) was so encouraging! It gives me hope too.

    Ogvorbis, please know that your posts have had a powerful impact on more people than you may ever know. I hope you will be back soon.

  13. 513
  14. 514
    drbunsen, le savant fous

    PZ:

    There is no safe word.

    You can try to use one in TZT, but I will take it as an invitation to whip you harder.

    Erm. Am I the only one who found this a trifle unsettling?

  15. 515
    SallyStrange

    PZ, what would be the fun of that?

    “What would be the fun of that, SIR?”

  16. 516
    Inaji

    PZ:

    Actually, a dominator, SIR.

    Scary, SIR, scary! ;p

  17. 517
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    PZ:

    From now on, TET will be moderated more heavily. This is a social thread — it will be a safe place for friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement. It is not the place for squabbling.

    Thank you! Now I might actually consider coming back.

  18. 518
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    Audley:

    I’ve been criticized for my belly being “too big” and for showing too early.

    That person should be criticized for being too fucking stupid and bigoted to be allowed out in public.

  19. 519
    Nutmeg

    Ooh, a book discussion. All book recommendations from TET are now being copied and pasted into a spreadsheet for future use. I think the majority of my entertainment choices are now things that have been recommended by Pharyngulites, which is fairly awesome.

    I’ll add my vote to the recommendations to read Guy Gavriel Kay. The Sarantium books are my favourite of his, and those who enjoyed Tolkien will probably enjoy the Fionavar trilogy.

    A couple of years ago I read through just about everything by Charles de Lint. Some of it is similar in style to Neil Gaiman’s writing, at least in my opinion.

    On the lighter side, I’m a fan of Robin McKinley. Most of her stuff is more to the young adult side of things, which I enjoy sometimes. Sunshine is a darker urban fantasy that would be suitable for adults or teens.

    And for books that aren’t fantasy, I’m working my way through The Grapes of Wrath, which I never read in high school. After the past few years of recession, I’m finding it very relatable.

  20. 520
    Jessa

    Cipher:

    Sewing machines take a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, they’re a joy to use. I learned how to use mine with only the instruction manual and no outside help.

  21. 521
    Inaji

    Daisy, about GGK’s Ysabel, it’s on the woo side (spirits and such), however, it’s a compelling read.

  22. 522
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Yaaaay for all the book recommendation. I shal go a-hunting!

    I’ve been reading Jacqueline Carey’s Kushiel series,

    Read it, love it. I have her Namah’s series to read still.

    Guy Gavriel Kay’s Tigana

    Have it on my list already. I’m loving how you guys think.

    I’ve been criticized for my belly being “too big” and for showing too early.

    I was criticized for showing too late and not enough. By the very people running the shelter for homeless teens at the time no less. I had to lift up my shirt to show my stomach to them.

  23. 523
    Inaji

    Jessa:

    Sewing machines take a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, they’re a joy to use.

    Oh no, they are not. Sorry, they may be a joy to others, however, every single time I’ve attempted to use one, it’s a disaster of untold proportion. And I have tried, time and time again when I was younger, having incredibly talented and skilled sewers in the family. (Pretty much everyone, just not me.)

    I’ll stick to hand stitching, thank you.

  24. 524
    ImaginesABeach

    Audley -

    This is a huge part of why I can’t sleep anymore. I always used to sleep on my tummy, but for obvious reasons I can’t anymore.

    When I was pregnant with GirlChild, I managed group homes. Each shift had to have someone who was CPR certified, so when we hired a new awake night person, we needed someone who was CPR certified to sleep over. I brought in an air mattress to sleep on because I was too big for the couch and had the best nights’ sleep I’d had in weeks. Took the air mattress home and put the twin size air mattress on the king size bed. Slept well for the rest of the pregnancy, and did it from the moment I started to show with BoyChild. Of course, YMMV.

  25. 525
    Inaji

    JAL:

    I was criticized for showing too late and not enough.

    I knew someone who carried toward their spine, so even when she was over 6 months pregnant, she hardly showed. She took no end of shit over that.

  26. 526
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I knew someone who carried toward their spine, so even when she was over 6 months pregnant, she hardly showed. She took no end of shit over that.

    Yep. I wasn’t showing much at 7 months. Coupled with the fact I was already heavy and it was fucking winter/early spring through most of my pregnancy I can’t believe people were expecting me to show already.

    Little One was born in May and even in the end it just looked mostly like I was fat. Couldn’t get a fucking seat on the bus to save my life. I stopped asking people to move so I would stop hearing stuff like “stand up fat bitch it’s good for you”.

  27. 527
    Inaji

    JAL:

    I stopped asking people to move so I would stop hearing stuff like “stand up fat bitch it’s good for you”.

    Oh, nice. Real fucking nice. *spits*

  28. 528
    consciousness razor

    If you do plan on picking up SG’s policy, I will have absolutely nothing more to say.

    I just think a lot more people have been treated unfairly than you might realize. I couldn’t say who’s been “worse,” if that matters, but it hardly needs saying that shit has been thrown all over the place. I don’t like it either when people confront me and say I’m acting unethically. Sometimes they’re wrong, sometimes not, sometimes I hardly know what to think. Anyway, I sort of understand the visceral reaction, but it doesn’t help to distort the issue or blow it off entirely, though that would probably make everyone feel more comfortable in a lot of cases.

    But I think you already know I don’t have SG’s energy, and now that PZ’s issued the new rules, I’m able to follow them (as I expect SG would).

    I guess I’ll leave it at that. Too upset to write music tonight. Maybe there’s a godbot to smash elsewhere.

  29. 529
    Nutmeg

    I spent all weekend working on my progress report (which my advisor seems very pleased with, thankfully), so I decided to reward myself with an evening of geocaching. Went for a nice wander around a small forest and found a few caches.

    Does anyone else here geocache? I found the geocaching community hard to get into – it seems to be mostly families with young children and retired couples. That’s fine, of course, but I don’t have much in common with those folks, and many of them seem to be quite conservative. Geocaching events don’t make a lot of room for young singles, so I don’t usually go.

    Thinking about my failure to connect with the geocaching community makes me appreciate that I can spend online time with such a diverse group of people as the Horde. I guess a bunch of liberal atheists have more in common than a bunch of people who just share a hobby. I really appreciate reading comments from people from all different stages of life and all over the globe. It’s made me a better, more open-minded, more aware person.

  30. 530
    Ingdigo Jump

    Anyway, I sort of understand the visceral reaction, but it doesn’t help to distort the issue or blow it off entirely, though that would probably make everyone feel more comfortable in a lot of cases.

    You might want to consider the ‘you’re too emotional to deal with it rationally’ argument.

  31. 531
    Jessa

    Caine:

    Oh no, they are not.

    Hmmm. When I was first introduced to a sewing machine as a young’un, with my very experienced grandmother looking over my shoulder, I screwed up absolutely everything and hated it immensely. The same thing happened when my grandmother tried to teach me knitting. I picked up both again when I was in my late 20s by reading books and manuals, and I had no problem with either. I haven’t really thought about it, but maybe I am the sort of person who is more comfortable learning crafts from books.

  32. 532
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    consciousness razor #27:

    I don’t like it either when people confront me and say I’m acting unethically.

    There is a massive difference between being confronted and told one is acting unethically, and being targeted and hounded with insults, derision, and character assassination attempts because one has acted or been perceived to have acted unethically at some point, fyi =/

  33. 533
    A. R

    OK, so I have a gardening-related question I need to horde-source: Does anyone know of an old (preferably 19th or early 20th century) climbing rose with reasonable disease resistance that could overwinter in USDA Zone 5? Thanks in advance!

  34. 534
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I always wanted and still want to get into knitting, sewing, stitching. We’ve been on the look out for materials to try and get rolling on it but no such luck yet. It’s on my long list of shit I want to do when I get stable, if I can’t get it before then.

    I think it’d be really nice to do and valuable. My mom lost all of our stuff when we became homeless so I don’t have photos or anything to pass on and show the Little One. I’d like to make stuff for her at least. Plus be able to teach her something more than how to hand wash clothes in the tub.

    Well, aren’t I just a little ball of sunshine tonight. /snark

    See, this is why I can’t really talk or relate to people I meet at places like work IRL.

    Thank dog for you guys.

  35. 535
    consciousness razor

    You might want to consider the ‘you’re too emotional to deal with it rationally’ argument.

    Not what I meant, but thank you for pointing it out. I think rationality very often depends heavily on emotions, and didn’t mean to imply there was anything wrong with having them.

  36. 536
    Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness

    Glad of the up-date and rules. I just waded through the last thread and I’m very glad that threads of that type are unlikely in future.

    As others have said, but I have been told it’s OK to add your own opinion even so, this is a place I feel safe. I haven’t been flamed out as yet, but I feel confident that should it happen, it will be because there is something I need to think over. (godbots, creobots, et al. excepted.)

    Look forward to more reading when I’m back here from work.

  37. 537
    Inaji

    CR:

    I don’t like it either when people confront me and say I’m acting unethically. Sometimes they’re wrong, sometimes not, sometimes I hardly know what to think. Anyway, I sort of understand the visceral reaction, but it doesn’t help to distort the issue or blow it off entirely

    I’m fine with someone pointing out where I’m might be acting unethically or simply fucking up, however, that’s not what this recent…dust up has been about. When SG was upset about my clumsy quoting, I apologized, more than once. The amount of mud flung by him, at me, because I didn’t apologize to his specs was seriously out of fucking line. He does that often, he does it all the time and has done so for years. Perhaps if you haven’t been a target, it’s hard to grok, I don’t know. SG is also perfectly aware that his behaviour drives people away. I’m not sure why that’s okay in his case, when it wouldn’t be for anyone else.

    What I do know is that now, it’s going to take time for me to feel comfortable weighing in on front page threads (which I do a *lot*) because SG might decide to continue his stalking and harassment.

    As for you, I thank you for not being willing to adopt bad policy in regard to others, and I am most sincerely sorry that you feel SG has been treated unfairly. I wish I could say something helpful here. I will say that I wish he had simply dropped matters, rather than alienating more people and doubling, tripling, quadrupling down.

  38. 538
    Amblebury

    As far as book recommendations go, I’ve been trying to get people to read Patrick Ness’s Chaos Walking trilogy 4 eva.

  39. 539
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Sigh. Rant ahead. My older sister dropped by unexpectedly. We had a falling out about 7 years ago when we had a major disagreement during which she made fun of my anxiety, implied that I could snap out of it if I wanted to, and refused to work things out with me unless I agreed to have the conversation to her specifications (she refused to discuss over email because she “didn’t want to have a conversation using technology”).

    Maybe 6 months later she emailed me to say me she loved me and didn’t want to lose our relationship, would I please consider burying the hatchet. I wrote her a long heartfelt email, really went out on a limb and made myself vulnerable, and heard *crickets* from her …. until she called to say oops, she forgot she had my email blocked, if I had sent something it had gone to her trash, so could I resend it please?

    A year or so after that she contacted me again, basically saying “I love you and I’m willing to forgive you” and I replied that I’d like to have a relationship with her but I was only willing to do it if we set out some boundaries and she felt like she could abide by them, one of them being that she treat me and my needs with respect the same way I treat hers (she has a physical disability). Crickets.

    So, now she’s moving like 5 states away to the middle of the sticks, and she came to say goodbye and hung on me and was all I’ll miss you, we wasted so many years! Well, first of all, WE didn’t waste anything, you refused to own your behavior and work toward finding a truce we could both live with, and second of all, I would have loved to have a close relationship with you but how come you didn’t worry about “wasting years” all the time before our major disagreement when you never bothered to understand anything that was important to me, you just rolled your eyes and assumed I was an egghead elitist liberal and put me down?

    (Rant over. Family sucks sometimes, no?)

  40. 540
    Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness

    About #36

    For what it’s worth, SG seemed to say that anyone who did not report his views to his standards was a liar. That seems harsh given that there are so many threads and so many comments. I feel proud if I get the name and/or number of a comment right. I’m not lying if I don’t report what the other person intended to say. I report what I understood. Being told I got it wrong is fine. Being told I’m a liar and I won’t be allowed to rest until I admit it to someone else’s specs is not going to lead to pleasant chat.

    I try to cut people slack. I hope I get the same treatment. In my experience more can be explained due to slips or sloppiness than can be explained by lying. Ie: lighten up. Give the person a chance.

    Anyhow, I really do need to leave or I’ll be late.

  41. 541
    niftyatheist, perpetually threadrupt

    AR, I think many climbing roses would be hardy in that zone (my parents grew gorgeous roses, including climbers in a zone 4/5 area) as long as the soil is the kind they prefer, they get at least 6 hours of sunlight each day and protection from the harshest exposure in winter. I think it matters most what the climate (ie number of sunny days and rainfall) and soil is like.

    I am only a garden putterer with a store of merely anecdotal “know-how” but it seems to me that roses don’t like alkaline or clay soil very much and also don’t do as well as you would expect in really great soil. The soil where I grew up was on the acidic side (pH) and our roses grew like crazy. Sometimes we did have to add a little lime to the soil (so perhaps not too acidic would be good) but they bloomed into December/until the first really hard frost or snowfall. When I lived in the NIagara escarpment region (limestone clay soil) and the Ohio valley (also clay), I could not get roses to flourish. Now in Illinois with famously loamy “ideal” soil, roses do fairly well, but not as good as in the more acidic soil of my youth, even though there are more sunny days, etc.

    I think roses actually prefer a cooler climate, to be honest. But they do like sunshine (so put in a sunny location – if you can’t get most of the day sun, be sure to get morning sun). They don’t like to stay damp, so water in morning, not in evening.

  42. 542
    Inaji

    Kristin:

    My older sister dropped by unexpectedly. We had a falling out about 7 years ago when we had a major disagreement during which she made fun of my anxiety, implied that I could snap out of it if I wanted to, and refused to work things out with me unless I agreed to have the conversation to her specifications (she refused to discuss over email because she “didn’t want to have a conversation using technology”).

    Jesus. I’m so sorry, Kristin. Family does indeed suck much of the time.

  43. 543
    niftyatheist, perpetually threadrupt

    A R Also, I wish I could tell you how to buy the old-fashioned roses we had all around our windows. I don’t think anyone ever bought them – one simply received a “slip” from a neighbor or family member. They also grow wild in northeastern regions. Extremely hardy, briliant pinks and white, perfect rosebuds which open to simple single flowers that are tremendously fragrant.

    Also, looking at the map, I think we were actually zone 3 not 4, so even hybrid teas can be grown in your zone for certain, if you have the right conditions – enough sunlight, the right soil and protection from exposure in winter.

  44. 544
    Inaji

    Lyn M:

    I’m not lying if I don’t report what the other person intended to say. I report what I understood. Being told I got it wrong is fine. Being told I’m a liar and I won’t be allowed to rest until I admit it to someone else’s specs is not going to lead to pleasant chat.

    Exactly. Especially when people try like hell to disengage. Let it go. Don’t know what you’ll be late for, but I hope it’s something fun.

  45. 545
    Ichthyic

    I always wanted and still want to get into knitting, sewing, stitching.

    I can get buffybot to send you an invite to the LSG group in Ravelry if you want.

    it’s like if everyone in pharyngula suddenly decided to become interested in knitting at the same time.

    things tend to be a lot tamer, discussion wise, than here, but not always.

  46. 546
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    AR, I’m not absolutely sure about zone 5 winters but Cecile Brunner is one you might want to look into; it’s charming, vigorous, and I don’t think you could kill it with a flamethrower. OTOH it is *very* vigorous and big.

    Louise Odier is supposed to be cold hardy; iirc it’s a smaller climber that can alternatively be grown as a fountaining bush.

    Both are fragrant.

  47. 547
    Inaji

    Nifty:

    I think we were actually zone 3 not 4,

    I’m zone 4/5, but I don’t do roses. I’d think a quick search for “Roses zone 5″ would bring up whatever options there are, rose-wise. Sweet Briar, aka Prairie Rose grows wild here, but those aren’t what people consider to be “proper” roses.

  48. 548
    niftyatheist, perpetually threadrupt

    I’m zone 4/5, but I don’t do roses. I’d think a quick search for “Roses zone 5″ would bring up whatever options there are, rose-wise. Sweet Briar, aka Prairie Rose grows wild here, but those aren’t what people consider to be “proper” roses.

    Yes, good idea. A google search would be the way to go. Also, it is helpful to look for a decent regional gardening resource and then see what they say. For example, I was determined to grow roses in southern Ohio, and I did my darnedest – even dug out huge trenches and amended the hell out of the soil to try to make it more suitable to them – bah, they did NOT thrive. That was zone 6/7.

    Growing up in a much colder zone with a much shorter growing season, my parents grew hybrid teas and all sorts of climbers and also the wild “old-fashioned” roses (which were probably some variation on your prarie roses, Caine) and they all did gloriously well.

    Love love gardening!

  49. 549
    niftyatheist, perpetually threadrupt

    Oops! I forgot to finish that “for example” thought – point was the local resources warned that growing hybrid teas was next to impossible in that area – they were right!! So local expert advice is extremely valuable.

  50. 550
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Nutmeg:
    I never heard of geocaching until your comment. Having now read about it, that sounds a like a really fun hobby. I hope you’re able to connect with likeminded friends.
    I wonder what geocaching + parkour would be like…?

    I thought this was intriguing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocaching
    The South Carolina House of Representatives passed Bill 3777 in 2005, stating, “It is unlawful for a person to engage in the activity of geocaching or letterboxing in a cemetery or in an historic or archeological site or property publicly identified by an historical marker without the express written consent of the owner or entity which oversees that cemetery site or property.” The bill was referred to committee on first reading in the Senate and has been there ever since.

    Aaaaaaaand now I see more fun stuff to look up*, especially given the book lovers in the Horde:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BookCrossing
    BookCrossing (also BC, BCing or BXing) is defined as “the practice of leaving a book in a public place to be picked up and read by others, who then do likewise.”

    *Nutmeg, thanks for bringing up geocaching. Now I’m in ‘exploration’ mode. Puzzlehunt and Wherigo are next.

  51. 551
    consciousness razor

    As for you, I thank you for not being willing to adopt bad policy in regard to others, and I am most sincerely sorry that you feel SG has been treated unfairly.

    If there were a nice, friendly way to “disengage” and “let it go” while saying I wasn’t only talking about SG, I would try to do that right now. But I don’t know what needs to be said which hasn’t already been repeated numerous times, so what’s the point?

  52. 552
    Inaji

    Nifty, I agree, finding a local gardening resource or forum is invaluable. Lots and lots of good info there. I have to do that all the time, being in ND, given our zone and the harshness of the winter.

  53. 553
    Inaji

    CR:

    If there were a nice, friendly way to “disengage” and “let it go” while saying I wasn’t only talking about SG, I would try to do that right now.

    Yes, I know it wasn’t only about SG. I’ll let this go now, okay? If there is something[s] you think I’m direly wrong about or don’t understand, feel free to pursue it with me. I’ll do my best not to disappoint. Outside of that, I won’t discuss it anymore.

  54. 554
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Speaking of parkour, check out this ‘Best of’. David Belle is a courageous guy. Some of the feats he performs are rather frightening. I thought his moves around the 2:41 mark were totally awesome though.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x98jCBnWO8w

  55. 555
    ibyea

    Okay, I called my brother out on a racist joke, and his response? He can do whatever he wants. All I ask of him was to not make racist jokes around ONLY me, and his response? Repeating the n-word a million times to antagonize me. If my brother thinks that he can just throw out racist slurs in front of me without care, he is wrong. I am breaking off my friendship with him for a looong time.

  56. 556
    cicely

    Yeah; Imma gonna bail on the rest of that last Thread, since it looked to be mostly the latest iteration of the Endless Bicker, with a Cast of Thousands.

    Pass.
    -

    The Horde came through and we’ll be able to pay rent this Friday when the transfer goes through. =)

    Huzzah! Day saved!

    And the rat pic is cute. :)
    -
    Katherine, I’m glad that the meeting with the transgender advocate went well. :)
    -
    julian, may your hope not be misplaced.
    -

    So, since I sure as hell don’t feel like this is a real safe place for me (with all of my brokens), I’m just gonna walk away.

    :( :( :(

    Do. Not. Want. But if you feel you gotta go… *hugs* and best wishes.
    -
    Is…is the bickerment finished? *cautious optimism*
    -
    J_A_L, I too have a Nook. Son got it for me for Mother’s Day, and I now have all my D&D references in one handy, portable, doesn’t weigh a fuckin’ ton “tome”.

    This is beyond squee-worthy.
    -

    The Fuller Memorandum by Charles Stross [...] the first books in pretty decent series.

    Nonononono! It’s The Atrocity Archives, and I recommend it extra-highly.
    -

    *Seriously. I got sneered at for having swollen ankles by my asshole sister last week.

    Audley, dead fish upside her head. With extreme prejudice. It’s the only way.
    -

  57. 557
    Jadehawk

    Funny – I’d think people’s obligations to their online friends would include, if they think that friend has behaved strangely or badly, contacting said friend privately to ask about it and not condescendingly joining a public group attack. But that’s just me. You evidently don’t agree.

    Well, that certainly explains some things. FYI, some people* consider moving an emotionally difficult conversation from “public discussion” to “e-mail from friend” not to be considerate, but rather pushing for a higher level of intimacy than they were comfortable with. Because defensive shields that might be up in a public forum, even against comments from friends, might not be up when faced with a private e-mail from someone they consider a friend**.

    And when one gets such an e-mail after having decided to disengage from that particular conversation because it was getting too much… well, it feels like being hounded.

    just sayin’.
    - – - – - – - – - – -
    *by which I mostly mean me, but I’d be shocked to find out I’m unique
    **which is why this comment mostly is about e-mails with criticism in them, just to make that clear.

  58. 558
    Jadehawk

    From now on, TET will be moderated more heavily. This is a social thread — it will be a safe place for friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement. It is not the place for squabbling. If you’re looking for a fight, go to any other thread and have at it…but when tempers start to rise here, back off.

    well.

    since now it’s official that peer-pressure, ganging up on someone, and even repeating untruths about them are all ok, but insisting on defending oneself from any of those is not, I shall try to perma-flounce from TET again and take my need for distraction and social contact elsewhere. This isn’t a place I feel particularly comfortable in anymore.

  59. 559
    Nutmeg

    Tony: Geocaching can be very fun. I don’t mind that I mostly do it alone; I’m an introvert anyway. I like that geocaching takes me to places I wouldn’t have known about otherwise. Even in my own city, I’ve been to lots of interesting places just because someone put a cache there. And I enjoy seeing the creative hiding methods that some people use.

  60. 560
    Ingdigo Jump

    Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIFTS

  61. 561
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Nutmeg: On my last family camping trip my brother and I accidentally found two geocaches. One contained a small amount of weed. Which I’m not too proud to admit was pilfered.

  62. 562
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine:

    I have to do that all the time, being in ND, given our zone and the harshness of the winter.

    Given your distaste for the cold, are you one of those 15 blanket types during winter?
    It’s funny, but no matter the season, I always have a comforter on my bed (one of the heavy ones). Summer in North FL can get around 100 F (anyone know how to do the ‘degree’ symbol on a laptop without the numeric keypad?) but I still love the comfort of a heavy blanket. It’s only problematic with…a guest.

  63. 563
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ibyea:

    Okay, I called my brother out on a racist joke, and his response? He can do whatever he wants. All I ask of him was to not make racist jokes around ONLY me, and his response? Repeating the n-word a million times to antagonize me. If my brother thinks that he can just throw out racist slurs in front of me without care, he is wrong. I am breaking off my friendship with him for a looong time.

    I guess in your brothers’ world, part of doing whatever he wants entails deliberating offending his sibling. I’m right there with you. I think you made a sensible decision.

    I had two situations that echo yours (though not with family) that are eerily similar to one another happen at my bar over the last month. Both involved a young white male guest (both of them sat in the exact same chair…twilight zone) responding to me with ‘thanks my N***a’. Both times, I informed the guy that I found the term offensive and requested that he not use it with regard to me. In the first situation, the guy continued to use the term two more times! I was massively infuriated and had to walk off bar. In the second situation, the guy did the *proper* thing and said “I’m sorry. I won’t do it again.”
    I know which response I prefer.

  64. 564
    John Morales

    Jadehawk:

    This isn’t a place I feel particularly comfortable in anymore.

    Oh well.

    since now it’s official that peer-pressure, ganging up on someone, and even repeating untruths about them are all ok, but insisting on defending oneself from any of those is not

    It wasn’t the defending that was the transgression; the sin was in annoying PZ by disrupting the thread sufficiently long and hard.

  65. 565
    ibyea

    @Tony
    I don’t know if it is that sensible. He lives with me. It’s not like I can avoid him forever. But I will definitely not be having social conversations with him nor help him peer review his video projects until he promises to stop using racist slurs around me.

  66. 566
    ibyea

    @Ing
    ^_^

  67. 567
    ibyea

    OMG, tomorrow is Nintendo’s E3 presentation! I can’t wait to see what they have in store with their new console. Plus, my favorite games are Nintendo games, so I am really looking forward to that.

  68. 568
    cicely

    I like the new House of PZed structuring. My scrolling finger was getting cramps.
    -

    Go to take a nice shower and the things that happen…

    But you’ll never be cleaner…

    …inside and out.
    :D
    -
    Erülóra Maikalambe, please do come back. :)
    Booze? Chocolate? Booze with chocolate?
    -

    Sewing machines take a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, they’re a joy to use.

    My sewing machine and I are mortal enemies, and when I must drag it out, The Husband knows that the time has come to flee from the house.
    -

    Oh no, they are not. Sorry, they may be a joy to others, however, every single time I’ve attempted to use one, it’s a disaster of untold proportion. And I have tried, time and time again when I was younger, having incredibly talented and skilled sewers in the family. (Pretty much everyone, just not me.)

    All of this. Every bit of it.
    -

    OK, so I have a gardening-related question I need to horde-source: Does anyone know of an old (preferably 19th or early 20th century) climbing rose with reasonable disease resistance that could overwinter in USDA Zone 5? Thanks in advance!

    *listening intently*

    Maybe…something with scent? So many roses these days smell only faintly, if at all, of…anything, really, let alone roses.

    I’m not sure what zone I’m in, though
    -
    kristinc, *hugs*. Sometimes, family just blows great, big, wobbly chunks. In my case, it’s my youngest sister that I have no relationship with.
    -
    ‘Night, all.
    -

  69. 569
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Jadehawk #557:

    …since now it’s official that peer-pressure, ganging up on someone, and even repeating untruths about them are all ok…

    Et tu? Seriously?

    I’d ask you why you think that it’s ok to go after people hounding them with insults, derision and attempts at character assassination just because of a past disagreement, but…

    …-sigh- just…fuck it.


    Caine #536:

    Perhaps if you haven’t been a target, it’s hard to grok, I don’t know.

    this. this so fucking much.

  70. 570
    MissEla

    J_A_L @ 33–(A little late, I know, but…)

    If you really want to get into machine sewing, start looking around the local thrift stores for used sewing machines. I found one a couple of months ago that was in *really* good shape for $20. Test it out before you buy it, though! Check out the local library, too–there are *tons* of books on learning to sew, sewing for kids, and teaching kids to sew… and the library is free! :)

    Also, if you need any sewing notions/fabric to start out, let me know. I can fish through my (um….) 18 years of sewing detritus and send you a Package of Goodness. (And raid my friends’ stashes. And my mom’s. Sensing a theme? heh heh heh)

  71. 571
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbR36vqHGjk

    I love the look of determination on her face throughout this video. It also looks like she’s enjoying herself. The subtle message this video sends is most welcome.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjuEEpFx8rU&t=1s

    This guy is fucking awesome. The moves he has around the 1:42-1:52 mark are mindblowing. The stuff he does around 3:02 made my jaw drop.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png
    And this. QFT times 10.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_emJXmmuvw

    I clicked this link to watch some awesome free running, but the commercial alone was priceless. I usually hate those annoying ads before a video, but this one gets three gold stars.

  72. 572
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ibyea:

    I don’t know if it is that sensible. He lives with me. It’s not like I can avoid him forever.

    Ah, there are complications. Geez.
    Have you had the chance to explain to him why you find it offensive? If he repeatedly uses the word around you, it sounds like he doesn’t have the slightest clue.

  73. 573
    ibyea

    @Tony
    I told him, the joke was racist. If the joke, in the point of view of the other group sounds offensive, it is racist. As I said, “it’s got a bad vibe to it”. But no, his intention matters more, apparently. Plus, he justified racist slur by saying that some African Americans let him use it when he became friends enough with them. At some point, he said the n-word, which made me react angrily. His response was the “what are you going to do about it?” kind, basically repeating the word over and over again in my face. At that point I told him not to talk to me anymore, and of course, I called him a bigot.

    I know he doesn’t have racist intentions, since he himself have called my parents out on racism, but I don’t care. His actions are the same of bigots, and he seems to have a superficial understanding of what racism is. He seems to think that racism is just being offensive.

  74. 574
    ibyea

    @Tony
    Basic summary: He knows the n-word is racist, but thinks his intention and friendship with some African Americans gives him leeway in that. He thinks racist jokes is cool as long as it is in service of some crude comedy routine.

  75. 575
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Nutmeg:

    Geocaching can be very fun. I don’t mind that I mostly do it alone; I’m an introvert anyway.

    Do you feel you’re a bit of a loner? I ask because I’ve always been a loner, but wanted a social group (I picture me a group of friends going to brunch ala Carrie and girls in Sex & the City) to hang out with, but for a variety of reasons (not the least bit being a desire to have minimal drama in my life) it’s been difficult to find over the last 36 years. There are times I wonder what’s wrong with me; that I don’t have that special magical fairy dust mixed in my blood that transforms me into a social butterfly. So many people have said I should just go out and make friends, but it’s not just that. There’s more to it, because I do have friends and have never had problems making them. I’m just cautious about how close I get to someone (being atheist and gay alone keeps me at arms length sometimes).
    I did finally achieve a close knit group from late ’07 til early ’10.

  76. 576
    NuMad

    ‘thanks my N***a’

    Ironic racism under the cover of ironic appropriation?

    Never that cute.

  77. 577
    ibyea

    Actually, it was my little sister of 12 years old that called him out on it. She is braver and more perceptive than me.

  78. 578
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    NuMad:

    Ironic racism under the cover of ironic appropriation?

    Never that cute.

    Its gets better with the first situation.
    The second time he used the word, he pulled the “guest is always right” card, in addition to appropriation…I think I still have a pain in my neck from how quickly my head spun.

  79. 579
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Ever wonder if you could teach a cat to poop in the toilet?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf_IIbT8HGk&feature=related

    I’m going to try this with Cassie (who looks exactly like the cat that was placed in the dresser) and Kayta (who looks like the 40lb.+ tabby, only 25lbs. lighter)…

  80. 580
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Dammit, every time I find a video that’s amazing, another one tops it. Case in point:

    http://youtu.be/B0jTKL3Dp00

    You will believe a cat can sing.

  81. 581
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    I hope Ogvorbis will come. I was updating the thread continuously, to my growing discomfort, and Oggie’s withdrawal made me literally sick. Within 3o seconds I had an email to PZ, suggesting, as mildly as possible, that if SG/pitbull were allowed to stay, many regulars would leave, and would he consider taking action?

    Many thanks, PZ. SG had a voice similar to abusive ones I experienced for years, and I too was on the point of leaving.

  82. 582
    Cipher

    FFS. Can we drop the issue about SG now? Please? If this is going to be a thread where we’re all nice and don’t have hot tempers (which I’m okay with us having), and he’s already been removed from it?

  83. 583
    Cipher

    Sorry for snapping about it. I’m just on one of my last-nerve things because the past few days have been stressful here and elsewhere and I’m feeling bad about lots of things. Off to self-soothe with soft kitty pillows and heavy blankets.

  84. 584
    Cipher

    In fact I think I’m going to try to STFU in here (and hopefully also not lurk) for a bit. I’ll make it five days and see how it goes. See y’all 6/10 or something.

  85. 585
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good morning!

    David
    Argh, shit. But so far my plan involve arriving on the 16th. But I haven’t reached my aunt yet. Can’t make it earlier because I’ll be away the weekend before and I can’t make it through 2 weekends without Mr.

    Audley

    *Seriously. I got sneered at for having swollen ankles by my asshole sister last week.

    Second Caine’s suggestion, add what’s in the kitty litter box.
    I can feel for her, but really, that’s no way to treat a sister. I think that mine is/was in a similar situation. Her life never worked out the way that would have permitted kids unless you want to dump them in the middle of a pile of poo.
    But she decided to turn into The Most Amazing Aunt™ instead.
    As for the reactions, maybe that changes when they’re actually out. I’ve had mixed reactions from all kinds of people:
    Parents who are just as fed up with the “Mommy wars” as I am and parents who think they’re the bee’s knee.
    With childfree people there’s two types that are getting on my nerves:
    -Wooish-minded people. They get on everybody’s nerves, but they’ll become twice as annoying once they think they must save the precious little body from big pharma.
    I love Mr.’s aunt, but she’ll hear about scarlet fever, kid getting antibiotics and go on about “can’t develop their immune system”. To her defense she was a bit shocked when i said that they can’t do that when they’re dead either.

    -The Cat Ladies™
    Does not include everybody who is childfree and has a cat. Not all Cat Ladies™ have cats, some of them have dogs, too. They are united by two characteristics:
    They will do anything for their pet. They’ll tell you endlessly about their ordeals to find the right cat feed and litter box stuff and that the only stuff their cat eats means that they themselves have to live off Ramen by the end of the month.*
    They expect my kids to know the right cutlery for fish and expect them to eat whatever is put in front of them to the last morsel. Quietly. If they don’t I’m one of those parents who raise spoilt brats for not making them eat their broccoli.

    Well, a lot of those types of things* have happened earlier than “the norm”, although it’s been nothing to worry about.

    You’re an individual and not a chart to tick off boxes. I had things happening to me that weren’t the norm and I did not have things happening to me that would have been the norm, for example problems with blood pressure or diabetes.
    As for showing, with the little one people hardly noticed I was pregnant at all.

    TLC

    The thing about cooking knives, is that they generally need to be stainless steel.

    I respectfully disagree. I personally prefer kitchen knives that rust a little, because you can sharpen them wonderfully. My gran owns some where the blade is only 5 mm wide after 40 years of use, but they cut like hell.

    ++++

    . This is a social thread — it will be a safe place for friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement.

    Thank you, PZ

    ++++

    Sewing machines take a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, they’re a joy to use. I learned how to use mine with only the instruction manual and no outside help.

    Seconded.
    Never ever use panné velvet

    Nutmeg

    Went for a nice wander around a small forest and found a few caches.

    I absolutely plan on doing that with the kids once they’re a bit older.

    Caine
    Probably your family used up all the avaible talent with sewing machines. I think my mum used up all the avaible knitting talent for herself.

    JAL
    I recommend hand embroidery. There are great sources online that supply a regular amount of freebies (Urban Threads, for example) and starting equipment isn’t too expensive to come by.
    Plus, you can teach the little one with home-made cardboard embroidery: trace a picture onto cardboard, punch holes in it, give her some wool-scraps and a blunt big needle and she can sew alongside you.
    Plus, you can turn her precious drawings into embroidery patterns, too!

    kristinc
    Big hugs

    ibea
    For you, too, hugses. Family can really suck.

    Cipher
    Hugs for you, too. Take a break, I’ll be happy to see you when you’re back

    *Necessary disclaimer:
    Feed your pets the way you want. I’m not going to judge you. I’m also not saying that poor people should not have pets. I only object to the combination of both, making the pet’s whims (as opposed to needs for sick pets, for example) the top priority while demanding that children meet absolutely unrealistic expectations.

  86. 586
    pentatomid

    Thank you, PZ, for trying to keep TET a safe environment where we all can feel comfortable.

  87. 587
    birgerjohansson

    Nutmeg:
    ” On the lighter side, I’m a fan of Robin McKinley. Most of her stuff is more to the young adult side of things, which I enjoy sometimes. Sunshine is a darker urban fantasy that would be suitable for adults or teens.”

    I also loved Sunshine.

    Recent discoveries: the “Matthew Swift” novels by Kate Griffin and the brilliant “Angelmaker” by Nick Harkaway. Both Harkaway and Griffin have a style that reminds me of Kraken by China Mieville.

    For a mixture of detective fiction and London history, see the “Peculiar Crimes Unit” stories.

    BTW, Matthew Smith has some of the attitude of Garrett, P.I. in the stories by Glen Cook.

  88. 588
    Dabu

    PZ sez

    TZT is the danger room in the basement with knives and swords on the wall and gutters & drains to make it easy to clean up the blood.

    Jeez, whoever designed my house is a madman. But that’s the way it is, accept it or find a different house to play in.

    So, we have HH Myers, or PZ Holmes. Nothing like hanging out in the drawing room while the odd quartering goes on elsewhere.

  89. 589
    opposablethumbs

    kristinc #38 that resonates a hell of a lot with me. A serious major difference with someone, and then they come breezing back after a good long while to say they’re prepared to forgive you? Fuck that. That is taking passive-aggressive to a new level, the gracious forgiveness and how can you be so ungracious as not to be grateful for their generous forgiveness (because obviously by implication the disagreement was entirely your fault in the first place). Actually I’ve just realised this response on my part is almost wholly about me … sorry. I meant to respond to you and sort of boiled over instead.

    Family sucks sometimes, no?

    yes it fucking does

  90. 590
    opposablethumbs

    Cipher I hope you feel OK again soon. You’re probably not reading at the moment, but just in case you might be here is a small internet {hug} if you want one.

  91. 591
    opposablethumbs

    On a totally totally different note, someone somewhere else just posted this link:

    http://deviatesinc.tumblr.com/post/24406680774/did-someone-order-beefcake

    This is a clip from Pathé newsreel footage of a 1951 fashion show – men’s fashions – starting with swimwear – and it’s … well I didn’t realise clothes like that for men would get into a mainstream fashion show, let alone in 1951.
    Hope I don’t fuck up and embed this; it’s showing as a simple link in preview!

  92. 592
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Okay, I posted this during the debacle and it probably got lost, so I’m going to try it again now that the debacle appears to have died down.

    The Enbridge Northern Gateway pipeline has an official blog. For those who are unaware, Northern Gateway is meant to ship barrels and barrels of clean, green, ethical tar sands oil without any spills whatsoever through miles of boreal rainforest to the BC coastline, where it will be shipped off to such amazing job-creating countries as China. Canada’s Keystone XL, in other words.

    I say we give ‘em what for.

  93. 593
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Also, the italicized portions of my comment were redacted courtesy of the Harper Government.

  94. 594
    carlie

    Roses: I’m in zone 3, and I have the old-fashioned pink smelly kind and a climber; (just put a pic of it on twitter, it’s doing great right now!);there are a lot of people with other kinds around me. So they do work here. Is the problem that zone 5 is too warm?
    Talking about gardening hurts at the moment, because yesterday my neighbor had a huge patch of daylilies that straddle our property line pulled out. Like, they’re all completely gone. It was a huge patch. If he had told me he wanted them gone, I’d have dug them up and replanted them in my backyard. That was easily close to $200 worth of plants if you go by what you’d pay at the store to replicate it.

    Katherine, meant to add in on all the yays.

    I suck at geocaching. Tried it a few times using a borrowed unit, and even the easy ones took forever. Gave it up.

    Jadehawk, I don’t want you to go.

    My sewing machine and I are mortal enemies, and when I must drag it out, The Husband knows that the time has come to flee from the house.

    My sewing machine is that friend who you always want to spend time with, but then when you do you remember why you don’t get together more often.

  95. 595
    John Morales

    Tax office seeks millions from cult leader and associates

    Lawyer for the defendants, Sam Doyle, said he would be seeking a meeting with the tax office to try to resolve the issues of whether Agape Ministries was a religious institution and whether it was obliged to pay tax.

    Because religious institutions aren’t illegal scams.

  96. 596
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    Cicely,

    Thank you. It’s nice to know somebody cares. I’ve missed you.

    I’m still not sure that this is the right place for me, but I’ll dip my toes in for a while. The new policy should help a lot. There were just too many vicious fights (and I’m not talking about just one, but no I ain’t gonna name names right now) that made it hard to even read, let alone want to try to carry on a conversation here. Some of them still haunt me. If there were a way that people “take it outside” when they had a dispute so the rest of us could keep going, that would help. Instead, this was “outside”. And before anybody says “just don’t read those posts”, it doesn’t work that way. It’s like somebody sticks a turd in my delicious ham sandwich, and you’re telling me it’s still a delicious sandwich as long as I eat around the chunks*.

    Well, this is turning out longer than I intended. I’m just a bit worked up right now. But I’m hopeful about this actually being a real social thread. That’s all I’ve wanted. I’m trying to remember when I originally flounced. It’s been too long.

    * I did not invent this simile, merely repurposed it.

  97. 597
    SQB

    Voodoo Mon Amour – Diablo Swing Orchestra.

    Awesome! Thanks for sharing.
    ===

    I would love some book recommendations. I usually prefer fantasty but have read and loved some mystery and smut.

    Jeff Noon. I started with Pixel Juice, which is a collection of short stories, but interconnected. Some segue into the next, some are remixed, some are… well, you just have to read it.

  98. 598
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Bwaha. I’m totally going to have people boycotting my Guards novel. The character Shaura is in a long, committed relationship with a tallis woman named Ora. Shaura is also a tallis woman. It’s not going to be in-your-face type stuff, but still it’s there, and no one even bats an eye in response.

    @SQB:

    You’re welcome. They’re the first jazz metal band I’ve ever heard, and they kick all kinds of ass.

  99. 599
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Tony: “anyone know how to do the ‘degree’ symbol”.

    It’s “°” only without the quotes, like so: 100°F. (But do preview!)

  100. 600
    SQB

    Re: Jazz Metal, have you ever heard of John Zorn and/or Naked City?

  101. 601
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Drat, repairing the kitchen lamp would be much more work than I thought…

    re: sewing machines
    I love mine. My precioussssss. I wished I had two more, a serger and a normal one to sew on while my precioussss is doing the embroidery.
    And a space to put them.
    Bragging Talking about them, I just finished two summerdresses for the girls. Those were two white undershirts for 12-14 yo.

    Erülóra Maikalambe
    Welcome back!

  102. 602
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Catching up…
    Nutmeg:

    And for books that aren’t fantasy, I’m working my way through The Grapes of Wrath, which I never read in high school. After the past few years of recession, I’m finding it very relatable.

    I ♥ Steinbeck. The last book of his that I read was East of Eden which I ennjoyed immensely.

    Speaking of picking up the classics, B&N had a combo copy of A Tale of Two Cities and Great Expectations on clearance for $5. That’s what I will read next, assuming I ever finish Fletch.

  103. 603
    pentatomid

    Diablo Swing Orchestra kicks ass! I discovered them almost a year ago and got completely hooked.

  104. 604
    JeffreyD

    From now on, TET will be moderated more heavily. This is a social thread — it will be a safe place for friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement.

    Not that anyone has had a real reason to miss me*, but I may return if the room is again worth entering. Have not even bothered to lurk in so long that I do not know half of the nyms.

    *Not a passive/aggressive cry for attention. Just the reality that I have contributed little in the past year and doubt most people know who I am.

  105. 605
    carlie

    JeffreyD – you sell yourself short; lots of us are happy to see you. Have a snuggle and a virtual drink and a comfy chair of your choice. :)

  106. 606
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @SQB:

    Zorn, yes. Not Naked City tho.

    @Pentatomid:

    They’re so awesome. I want to listen to them always.

    @JeffreyD:

    I remember you! *waves furiously at!*

  107. 607
    SQB

    JeffreyD, I surely remember you. I admit not noticing any absence, but I haven’t been that active lately myself.
    ====
    Katherine, how about Melt Banana?

  108. 608
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    JeffreyD, hi, how goes it? Is the foot any better?

  109. 609
    birgerjohansson

    “sewing machines”

    When I grew up, my mom actually had one of those mechanical, pedal-powered ones.
    — — — — — —
    “Tigana” is a good novel.

    And so is “Kiln People”

  110. 610
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    JAL:

    I was criticized for showing too late and not enough. By the very people running the shelter for homeless teens at the time no less. I had to lift up my shirt to show my stomach to them.

    *sigh* We just can’t win, can we?

    The kicker is, I am fat, but I’m carrying everything up front, so I look like I’m much farther along than I actually am. The fact that a fat lady would have the audacity to allower herself to look even bigger* seems to offend a certain subset of people.

    *And I wear fitted shirts ‘cos I like my round belly. shockhorror!

    ImaginesABeach,
    I will definiely try out the air mattress, thanks! We’ve got a nice queen sized one that the cats haven’t yet destroyed. :)

    Everyone else: I think that instead of a dead halibut (which is bound to be stinky), I’ll look in to purchasing a rubber chicken to whack insensitive clods with. :D

  111. 611
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Ugh. I seriously need a new bed. Every morning I get up feeling like I slept on Main Street during the Steamroller Parade.

    Anyway, I have kind of a sad thing that I’d appreciate some advice on. We have two dogs and we can’t keep them anymore because they’re destroying our house, and even if that weren’t a problem we’re moving soon anyway and can’t take them to our new place. My problem is that one of my dogs gets scared of strangers (one time we did have someone come by to adopt him but he freaked out) and the other is simply too old and in too bad a shape to be adopted (he’s blind in both eyes, I’m pretty sure, and he also has arthritis and no teeth).

    I don’t really know what to do about either of them, I’ve never taken animals to a shelter and don’t know their policies. There’s also, ya know…the guilt factor. That’s tough.

  112. 612
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Funny story about that, though: when I originally tried to adopt out my dog I posted about it on Facebook, and I was FB friends with none other than Abbie Smith(!) at that time. She proceeded to tell me that I was some combination of Hitler, Pol Pot, and the Antichrist combined for…wanting my dog to go to a good home, I guess?

    That was pretty much my first sign that something was rotten in ERVmark.

  113. 613
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I come down stairs on this relatively chilly Sunday morning, turn on my computer to check the weather (I have a 5-pound pork shoulder roast I plan to ‘BBQ’ today (rain and an electric grill do not get along)) and, of course, Pharyngula TET comes up immediately (when I closed down last night, that was the one tab open). And I discover that, within a half an hour of me trying to call out one specific commenter for attempted winning at all costs, this happened:

    . . . a special penalty: don’t participate in TET anymore. You are clearly not a social kind of person.

    followed shortly by this:

    This is a social thread — it will be a safe place for friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement.

    I, sometimes, enjoy the arguments and vituperation on other threads. The TET Endless Thread, for me, though, was the place to socialize.

    Crap. I’m saying this all wrong.

    I wish that I had seen PZ’s messages before I said I was leaving.

    Anyway, sorry for my flagrantly unfounded flounce.

    I ♥ Steinbeck.

    I hated him in high school. Now that I am in my mid-40s, I have discovered I like his writing. I think Tortilla Flats, with its beautiful exploration of situational and economic ethics and morality, is one of my favourites.

    but I may return if the room is again worth entering.

    Its all in the timing. I was planning to take a month off and see if things had changed, saw the change this morning by accident, and, well . . . .

    And just a few showers after 4:00pm. I can do the pseudo-BBQ!

  114. 614
    John Morales

    RahXephon, I wish I had useful advice for you regarding the dogs. :(

    If you want, I can echo your request at PET, just in case someone there has some useful suggestion.

  115. 615
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @RahXephon:

    How could you give up your baby to a stranger’s home!? You’re worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined into some monstrous super-dictator… like one of those animes with the robots that join together to form an even bigger robot! “I’ll form ze head!”

    (yes, of course, /sarcasm.)

  116. 616
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Katherine

    You caught me!

  117. 617
    SQB

    Ogvorbis, I love your steam and fire stories. Please do tell more of them.
    And I won’t make fun of NASCAR — I’ve watched enough long track ice speed skating not to. I mean, short track is somewhat comparable to NASCAR, I guess. But long track? The 10 km? They’re just going round and round for almost 15 minutes and they’re not even in the same lane!
    Please stay.

  118. 618
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Giliell:

    I think that mine is/was in a similar situation. Her life never worked out the way that would have permitted kids unless you want to dump them in the middle of a pile of poo.

    If my asshole sister were to get pregnant tomorrow, her future kids would start out in a pretty decent situation, at least if we’re talking about the more superficial stuff and not raw parenting skills (‘cos who knows with that until someone actually spawns, right?). Like I said, I’m pretty sure that she wants kids and this is jealousy.

    Knowing my sister, no matter what I do, I (and DF) will be criticized for whatever she can. I will be (and I have been) compared to other women that she knows. I have no expectations of her being a great aunt. *shrugs*

  119. 619
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    If you want, I can echo your request at PET, just in case someone there has some useful suggestion.

    I don’t know if there’s anyone in PET who’s in Oklahoma, and if there are they probably aren’t looking to foster/adopt pets, but yeah, that’d be great.

  120. 620
    opposablethumbs

    Good to see you Ogvorbis. Pseudo-BQ sounds good – different from “real” but good. There may possibly be home-made-from-scratch pizza here tonight (I’m pretty sure there’s enough flour and yeast in the cupboard), with salad.

  121. 621
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Oggie,
    It’s good to have you back. ♥

  122. 622
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Please stay.

    I was planning on coming back. The serendipitous sighting of PZ’s massage just brought me back sooner.

    Really soonerest.

  123. 623
    carlie

    RahXephon, maybe try Craigslist first? There’s a slim chance that there’s somebody with a farm who might want the first dog, and might take the second out of a kind nature. There should be no-kill shelters near you; try petfinder.com to start with. They have listings for shelters that I swear I’ve never seen pop up in the yellow pages.

    Audley – if she gets really bad, you might have to tell her that you understand that she doesn’t like you having a child, but that’s not going to change and in the meantime she’s really hurting you. It might just take one well-placed “you’re hurting me” to snap her into realizing what she’s doing. Then again, a pig might also go flying by my office window.

  124. 624
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Pseudo-BQ sounds good – different from “real” but good.

    I put foil under the electric heating element to catch the fat and let it smoke. I rubbed the blade roast with smoked salt, salt, garlic powder, powdered chipotle, and black pepper. The combination of the smoke from the fat sitting on the foil and the smoked salt works nicely.

    We use it for BBQ sandwiches, pulled pork tacos, Tex-Mex pizza, add it to beans, etc. The stuff is only $1.29 a pound and the three of us can get four or five meals out of one. Worth the 10 hours of electricity to cook it right.

  125. 625
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Audley
    Well, there are different reasons why people’s family planning doesn’t work the way it should.
    For some people it’s medical reasons, for others it’s life situation. I understand that it can be very hard for somebody to see that someone else gets what they always wanted “easily”, but it’s no excuse for adults to throw such a tantrum.

  126. 626
    dianne

    Audley, I have no judgement on how you look while pregnant, but do have some potential judgement on your body’s handling of the pregnancy…Do you have any other problems along with the swollen ankles? Headaches? High blood pressure? Protein in your urine? Sudden weight gain (as in 10# over a couple of days, not just normal pregnancy weight gain)? Puffiness elsewhere? Trouble breathing? Jaundice? Seizures?

    Yeah, I know, the answer is almost certainly, “Duh, what would I be doing here instead of the ER if I had been having seizures”, but I get worst case scenarioitis at times.

  127. 627
    SkepticTantrika

    So, whatever happened to SSC?

  128. 628
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Carlie,
    At this point, I’m not sure saying something would snap her out of her behavior– she’s the victim, after all– BUT, I think that being bluntly honest would help me feel better, you know?

    We should consider attaching a couple of turkey wings to a ham shank. We might not have flying pigs, but we could create a delicious turducken-like dish!

  129. 629
    carlie

    The stuff is only $1.29 a pound and the three of us can get four or five meals out of one.

    Speaking of which, it’s been awhile since a round of favorite recipes – can I suggest a topic of cheap eats? We really have to economize this summer, and I’ve never been great about eating cheaply well. My idea of spending less on groceries usually ends up with alternating between spaghetti and bean burritos.

  130. 630
    carlie

    Audley – being blunt could definitely help. Better than what I’d be tempted to do, which is carry a notebook, and when she starts in take it out and say “Wait, this sounds important. I want to make sure I get every word of what you have to say written down.”, and then stare intently at her in anticipation. ;p

  131. 631
    Irène Delse, on dry land among seabirds

    Delurking a bit… Not much to say for now, except that I’m impressed by PZ’s moderator skillz. For a house “designed by a madman”, it looks insanely healthy to me ;-)

  132. 632
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Giliell,
    True that.

    Dianne,
    Thanks for your concern. I know it’s not judgement!

    A couple of days after my ankles first started to swell, I went to my doc. My blood pressure is good (110 over 60) and my urine sample didn’t show anything unusual. My weight gain has been steady and on target (6 pounds total so far), I have zero headaches*, no seizures, jaundice, other swelling, etc. After all of that, my doc looked at my ankles and told me that at this point, I shouldn’t worry, but if they get whoa worse, I should call her right away.

    I’ve been able to minimize the swelling by drinking a shit load of water and keeping my feet propped up (which, luckily I can do while at work). The day that I was sneered at was 90° and humid, you know: a day when anyone’s ankles could be looking a little swollen.

    *Yay, no migaines, either!

  133. 633
    carlie

    Three Sherlocks argue about a case. Funny.

  134. 634
    Q.E.D

    RahXephon @110

    We have two dogs and we can’t keep them anymore because they’re destroying our house, and even if that weren’t a problem we’re moving soon anyway and can’t take them to our new place.

    Why? Why can’t you take them to your new place? I ask because for the following reasons you are going to find it difficult to re-home them (even if that were a desirable option, which for the dogs, it isn’t).

    1) dogs destroying house: there are solutions and training for that. Destructive behaviour can be linked to lack of exercise, attention, stimulation, play and/or behavioural problems. They are your dogs, it is your job to solve this problem with your dogs. How do you expect to re-home them if they are destructive?

    2) No you are not Pol Pot, Hitler etc., but your post hardly sounds like this decision is tearing you apart. People’s lives get complicated but you can hardly expect a fucking cookie for trying to give your dogs away. I am reserving judgement on your character until/if I find out why you can’t take your dogs with you. From the dog’s perspective they will be loosing their pack; that is traumatic enough in a healthy dog and yours have issues/needs. You have explained that one of them is fearful of new people and the other is old and blind so they have special needs making re-homing even more difficult for them (and the adopters). Abandoning them to a shelter is a terrible idea and an abnegation of your responsibilities. Shelters are already over full with lots of more desirable dogs so your special needs dogs are not likely to be adopted and are much more likely to be euthanized. It is your responsibility to find them a good home if you can’t keep them. If you do abandon them to a shelter, you should feel obliged to give the shelter a donation large enough to provide for their upkeep for life (shelters are almost always notoriously underfunded and operate on shoestring budgets).

    You don’t explain why you can’t take them where you are relocating but I hope it’s a bloody extraordinarily good reason.

  135. 635
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    “designed by a madman”

    My wife and I are thinking about buying some land and building. I should try to get the name of that architect. As long as the door to the danger room has a childproof lock.

  136. 636
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    carlie

    Speaking of which, it’s been awhile since a round of favorite recipes – can I suggest a topic of cheap eats?

    Disclaimer: I have no idea what stuff costs in the States. I know that prices may vary heavily between countries so what is a cheap meal for me might be expensive somewhere else.
    Those are my “Roleplaying night” dishes when there’s a small crowd of big eaters that makes expensive foods verboten. My usual budget is about 10€ for 6 large servings plus the kids.
    Oh, for stuff that requires minced meat I usually use only half of it and exchange it for grated carrots.

    -Jacket potatoes with sour cream
    Boil medium to large potatoes in slated water.
    Mix sour cream ( in Germany I’d use framer’s cheese or curd) with garlic, spices.
    Easy, fast, cheap

    -Spinach, scrambled eggs, mashed potatoes

    -Eyeballs and Maggots with gravestone moss
    About a pound of meatballs (around here they’re actually cheapest when readymade), a pound of pasta (Fusili are maggoty), frozen broccoli, canned tomatoes.
    Boil broccoli, fry meatballs, cook pasta. Make a tomato-sauce and mix everything together.

    -Chickpea curry
    Soak chickpeas over night. Boil in salted water. Fry onions, garlic and avaible vegetables. Add chickpeas and coconut milk and curry. Serve with rice.

    -Pasta gratin
    Fry a bit of bacon. Boil veggies, cook pasta. Mix eggs with some milk or cream. Season to taste. Mix everything in an ovensave dish, sprinkle with cheese and bake in the oven

  137. 637
    David Marjanović

    WTF. SGBM is kicked out, and comments keep accumulating at the same rate!?! I’ll catch up later, I have a whole trip to book.

    OM Initiation Orgy

    How do I keep missing those things??

    If my invitation gets “lost in the mail” one more time, I’m gonna cry. :(

    *huddles up with Audley in corner and cries*

    I’ve been criticized for my belly being “too big” and for showing too early.

    :-O

  138. 638
    carlie

    but your post hardly sounds like this decision is tearing you apart. People’s lives get complicated but you can hardly expect a fucking cookie for trying to give your dogs away. I am reserving judgement on your character until/if I find out why you can’t take your dogs with you.

    Wow, want to come down from the tower that’s sticking right up your ass? First, they wouldn’t have posted if they weren’t worried about it. Just because everyone doesn’t barf their emotions all over every comment doesn’t mean they’re not there. Second, a lot of places don’t allow pets of any kind, and in certain housing markets it’s really hard to find affordable housing that does. Third, who the hell are you to think that your judgment needs to be offered on RahXenon’s character, that it matters to them at all, and that you have the right to demand more information? Christ, we just got blasted for picking on each other in this particular thread, and told that this is the not the thread for that, and you come barging in all high and mighty. Nice.

  139. 639
    Pteryxx

    Thanks, PZ, and thanks all you folks returning.

  140. 640
    opposablethumbs

    The serendipitous sighting of PZ’s massage

    ORLY? ::envisions Bro Og with Discworld-type magical scrying glass showing random glimpses of Pharyngulites’ everyday lives (having been designed by Bloody Stupid Johnson it works much as you might expect …) ::

  141. 641
    birgerjohansson

    Drive-by science posting:
    — —
    World’s 500+ alliance for zero extinction sites provide wealth of tangible benefits to the human species, too http://phys.org/news/2012-06-world-alliance-extinction-sites-wealth.html
    — —
    Nanocones could be key to making inexpensive solar cells http://phys.org/news/2012-06-nanocones-key-inexpensive-solar-cells.html
    — —
    Startup creates new type of electrolyte for better and cheaper lithium ion battery http://phys.org/news/2012-06-startup-electrolyte-cheaper-lithium-ion.html
    — —
    Tibetan goji berry could fight diabetic blindness http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-06-ancient-berry-diabetic.html
    — —
    Novel magnetohydrodynamics solar power technology http://phys.org/news/2012-06-rpi-magnetohydrodynamics-solar-power-technology.html Doing away with turbines…

  142. 642
    Matt Penfold

    My Cheap Eats contribution:

    “Soufflé” Bakes Spuds.

    1. Bake 4 largish potatoes until cooked through.
    2. Cut each potato in half, and scoop out flesh into a bowl.
    3. Add butter, grated scheduler cheese and 1 egg to the potato flesh, add salt and pepper and mix well with a fork.
    4. Place spoonfuls of the mix back into the potato skins, sprinkling some grated cheese on top, and bake in a hot oven for 20 mins until brown.

  143. 643
    David Marjanović
    Funny – I’d think people’s obligations to their online friends would include, if they think that friend has behaved strangely or badly, contacting said friend privately to ask about it and not condescendingly joining a public group attack. But that’s just me. You evidently don’t agree.

    Well, that certainly explains some things.

    Oh yes, it does. It gives me a lightbulb moment.

    FYI, some people* consider moving an emotionally difficult conversation from “public discussion” to “e-mail from friend” not to be considerate, but rather pushing for a higher level of intimacy than they were comfortable with. Because defensive shields that might be up in a public forum, even against comments from friends, might not be up when faced with a private e-mail from someone they consider a friend**.

    And when one gets such an e-mail after having decided to disengage from that particular conversation because it was getting too much… well, it feels like being hounded.

    just sayin’.

    Just agreein’, even though I’ve never been in that situation, and even though my own intimacy isn’t high on my own radar.

    Taking discussions behind the scenes goes against SIWOTI syndrome. Wrong public statements must be corrected in public, so the same audience that learned the mistake can learn the correction!

    Why else do you think I recently wrote a 1000-word reply to 2 published papers, squeezed it down to 500 words and 5 references because that’s the limit for such things at PNAS, and submitted it to PNAS, one of those extra-prestigious journals that rejects almost everything that doesn’t blow large parts of the scientific community away? Because the original two papers were published in PNAS. It is not enough if the original three authors learn how exactly they misunderstood our paper.* It would be evil of me toward the readers of the original papers to keep it all behind the scenes.

    * I have, in fact, invited two of them in a private e-mail to coauthor the reply, so they can correct their own mistake. They don’t have time, though, and told me and my coauthor to go ahead.

    From now on, TET will be moderated more heavily. This is a social thread — it will be a safe place for friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement. It is not the place for squabbling. If you’re looking for a fight, go to any other thread and have at it…but when tempers start to rise here, back off.

    Fuck.

    Fuck.

    FUCK!

    I suppose we could all move to the zombie thread; but it grows too fast and contains very boring people.

  144. 644
    Pteryxx

    Re troublesome dogs:

    - Destructive behavior often can be addressed, however that doesn’t mean everyone can do it, especially when there’s already a move coming up thus an artificial time limit.

    - Some shelters are no-kill, and/or have volunteers in their network who specialize in both fostering and adopting out special-needs dogs. There really are people out there who will take on special-needs animals BECAUSE nobody else can or will.

    Humane Society or SPCA shelters also can give behavioral advice, incidentally. (Ordinary city/county shelters *might* but they aren’t known for it.)

    —-

    Cheap eats contribution: tortillas wrapped around scrambled eggs with other stuff, eaten with salsa. Salsa goes way further than I realized.

  145. 645
    ImaginesABeach

    carlie – SallyStrange pointed me toward BudgetBytes last summer during my layoff. Plenty of good recipes.

  146. 646
    dianne

    Tibetan goji berry could fight diabetic blindness

    I’m dubious and will remain so until there are positive clinical trials. But would point out that translating this sort of basic research finding into a potentially useful clinical result is what the NCAAM should be funding.

  147. 647
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    You don’t explain why you can’t take them where you are relocating but I hope it’s a bloody extraordinarily good reason.

    If you’re planning to take the same route Abbie Smith did that I mentioned upthread of haranguing me when you know zilch about my situation, then I suggest you take PZ’s comments to heart and back the fuck off.

  148. 648
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Matt:
    1) Twice baked potatoes? Yum!
    2) “Scheduler” cheese? O.o

  149. 649
    Louis

    I go away for an extended-ish weekend and y’all murder each other.

    {le sigh}

    House designed by a mad man?

    {le bigger sigh}

    At least we have a designated combat thread (TZT), a dedicated social thread (TET) and the usual semi-unrestricted morass that is Other Thread(s). So if SG/LILAPWL/OMJ and others feel he was/is hard done by (and I make no comment one way or the other, this is an impartial statement) surely TZT could be a venue for redress/discussion. After all, the tone of TZT can only be improved after Raj has been in there. I read PZ as saying this thread is not the place for those arguments, not that those arguments are verboten. YMMV of course.

    Anyway, this weekend I have consumed far too much barbecue, had fascinating real life conversations about feminism with Real Life Intelligent Women and everything, drunk far too little alcohol (I HAS DISAPPOINT!) and generally had a pleasant few days. I am also no longer the father of a two year old boy. I am now the father of a three year old boy. Which is very different. Not yet, but I am assured it will be.

    And since I am also mid Irving Kircsh’s book:

    SC, #358 on first page,

    For the record, behavior/subjects that have been called triggering lately: [SNIP] a critical discussion of psychiatric drugs (not any discussion of psychiatric drugs – just, apparently, a critical one)…

    SNIP mine.

    The manner in which you criticised psychiatric drugs and disease descriptors could well be triggering, you don’t get to decide what is triggering for others. They do. So please, whilst you received an unjust degree of pointless bashing, don’t miss why your critiques could be triggering for some people. It’s a separate but important issue.

    One of the main means of stigmatising mental illness (for given values of that term, and deconstructions thereof) is to deny its existence. Critique such as you are providing is, as I’ve said previously, a valuable part of improving the science, but (perhaps wrongly) is seen by some as part of that denial. Now you or I might think that to be wrong, but just like I didn’t think (and don’t) think I am poisoning the well of our (future) discussion of Kirsch’s work (for example) by mentioning features in common with scientologist anti-psychiatry (to name one hypothetical example), you doubtless do not think you are engaging in denial of mental illness (caveats as above). However you saw what I was doing, rightly or wrongly, as poisoning the well however unintentionally, others might see what you are doing as mental illness denial, rightly or wrongly. And that, as a common feature of mental health stigma, might be triggering for them.

    In other words, if you want proper consideration for your claims, as I am busy working off-line to do, then perhaps a little of the similar extension of consideration to other’s discussing their claims (of being triggered) might be helpful in such a fraught discussion.

    And with that said, I’ve got to go back to reading!

    Louis

  150. 650
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Re: TET as a safe place

    Good. I like it here as a safe place. I’m sure you remember last October when my ex-boyfriend (who had been electronically stalking me the entire month) decided to post on TET. I felt like I could never post here again. I like the socializing here, but to have someone able to post that made me frightened to say anything was something worse.

    I’m sure others feel that way with when it gets into angry shouting matches.

  151. 651
    Matt Penfold

    Tibetan goji berry could fight diabetic blindness

    I’m dubious and will remain so until there are positive clinical trials. But would point out that translating this sort of basic research finding into a potentially useful clinical result is what the NCAAM should be funding.

    The best way of fighting blindness resulting from diabetes is good blood glucose level control.

    And something would have to be done to disguise the taste. Goji berries are horrible.

  152. 652
    David Marjanović

    *puts on “socially inept; speak bluntly to me” button*

    And now for the stuff I actually wanted to post here:

    Best version of misheard “O Fortuna” lyrics.
    Collateral wisdom: “Look there, fruitloop, don’t sue YouTube, they wrote teh dictionary.”
    Contains an octopus.

    100-year jubilee meeting of the [German] Paleontological Society will have Simon Conway Morris as a plenary speaker. Topic? “Mass extinctions, missing links and other evolutionary myths”. Mass extinction is a myth? What? Time to argue with him again, I suppose!

    Except for this list with citations, what has Obama ever done for us?

    Best photo of all of Canada with context.

    ===============

    I’m never looking for a fight. Literally never. But I have a really hard time imagining that enforcing neurotypical style-over-content crap could possibly be a good idea.

  153. 653
    Q.E.D

    Carlie @ 137

    Ok so you think I was more judgmental than I should have been. One of my roomates worked at an animal shelter where I adopted my first dog. Hearing daily horror stories about people abandoning their dogs made me pretty sensitive to the issue and perhaps more judgemental than you’d like (perhaps than I should be).

    I posted factual reasons why RahXephone is going to have a difficult time trying to re-home his dogs and with shelters. Given these difficult to overcome problems the reason they “cant go with” becomes important. Is it inconvenient, difficult or impossible? How difficult is it compared to finding them a good home?

    When one adopts a dog, it’s a lifetime commitment unless you think dogs, particularly elderly, blind and needy dogs are disposable.

  154. 654
    birgerjohansson

    Two secret spare Hubble-size Telescopes turn up, turned over to NASA http://freethoughtblogs.com/zingularity/2012/06/05/two-secret-spare-hubble-telescope-turn-up-turned-over-to-nasa/

  155. 655
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Re; sewing machines. I love mine, but it does not love me. I need to find either a repairperson or someone who knows what they are doing to explain to me why it suddenly stopped making stitches for no discernable reason.

    Knitting I can do in my sleep. Did someone say there’s a Pharyngula Ravelry group!?!?!?!

  156. 656
    ChasCPeterson

    TET will be moderated more heavily. This is a social thread

    hmm. It is, in other words, no longer an Open Thread.

    Obviously, PZ’s blog, PZ’s rules. And a lot of people seem to approve of the new plan.
    I think it’s worth pointing out, though, that these are indeed New Rules. This Thread started out as a creationist-troll-stomping fest, and PZ used to send raging arguments here on purpose by anastomosing other threads.
    As far as I can remember, there has never before been a ‘place’ at Pharyngula where everybody must be comfortable and disagreement must be “friendly” (with the single exception of the split subThread that had parallel Love and Hate versions; that was January 2011).
    I sincerely hope that you-all enjoy your tea and squee and soft cushions and fire stories and recipe-swapping and friendly sociality over here.

  157. 657
    Matt Penfold

    2) “Scheduler” cheese? O.o

    I swear when I wrote that it said “cheddar”!

  158. 658
    David Marjanović

    Good. I like it here as a safe place. I’m sure you remember last October when my ex-boyfriend (who had been electronically stalking me the entire month) decided to post on TET. I felt like I could never post here again. I like the socializing here, but to have someone able to post that made me frightened to say anything was something worse.

    ~:-| That’s clearly something else. The problem wasn’t that there was a shouting match*, the problem was that he was stalking you. That was a perfectly good reason for the banhammer to come down; écrasez l’infâme, to stay in the hammer analogy.

    Meatspace stalking, BTW, is illegal where I come from; we even imported the English word for it just for that purpose. I don’t think cyberstalking is outright protected anywhere.

    * Disclaimer: I wasn’t there.

  159. 659
    dianne

    I’m not sure this qualifies as cheap food since one step involves obtaining equipment not available in the US, but…

    Whole grain Kasespaetzle

    For each person take one egg and 100 grams of whole wheat pastry flour (or alternately, a mixture of 80-90% Vollkornmehl und 10-20% Spaetzlemehl). Mix together with enough water to make the dough just able to slowly glop off a spoon (does that description make sense?) Run dough through Spaetzlehobbel into boiling water. Spaetzle are cooked when they float to the surface (a couple of seconds.) Skim them off the surface and set aside.

    Chop up and lightly stir fry some vegetables (mushrooms, onions, chard, spinach, and pepper work especially well in my opinion.) Toss Spaetzle in on top of the vegetables and cook about 30 seconds longer to remove excess liquid. Grate favorite cheeses on top and let melt for a few seconds. Cut up a tomato and decorate top with it. (This makes it look much more expensive than it is if you can find a really good tomato.) Eat.

  160. 660
    ChasCPeterson

    And in light of the New Rules, I will not be addressing the scurrilous lies that were posted about me yesterday evening. I can only guess that they were the product of wildly misdirected antisemitism.

  161. 661
    Louis

    I don’t see a problem with a “Social thread” (TET) and a “Troll Stomping thread” (TZT) and even a “Thread for discussion of meta issues, community arguments and other things if we really have to thread” (T Meta T? T Drama Llama T?)

    The newness or oldness of this recent split is…fucking irrelevant. If the community has changed sufficiently to want that sort of thing, I’m easy.

    After all, this blog doesn’t cater only to my specific needs of synthetic chemistry, rugby union, martial arts, and providing me with an education about the billion+ things I know sod all about. You don’t hear me whinging about it.

    Louis

  162. 662
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Thank you so much for your comments, carlie and Pteryxx.

  163. 663
    pentatomid

    I sincerely hope that you-all enjoy your tea and squee and soft cushions and fire stories and recipe-swapping and friendly sociality over here.

    Don’t worry, we will.
    It’s true that TET didn’t start out as a social thread, but that’s what it had become and people like it that way. It’s Pharyngula’s lounge, a nice place to socialize and make friendly conversations, talk music, share recipes and all that stuff. It’s fun, so there.

  164. 664
    David Marjanović

    Oops, I should have quoted the second paragraph, too:

    I’m sure others feel that way with when it gets into angry shouting matches.

  165. 665
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Cheap eats:
    Veggie split pea soup. A pound or so of dried split peas, several cups of water, one potato + other root veg + whatever else you feel like throwing in, salt, pepper, bay leaf. Simmer all ingredients covered in a big pot for 6-8 hours, until roughly the consistency of mashed potatoes.

  166. 666
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    I suppose we could all move to the zombie thread; but it grows too fast and contains very boring people. (emphasis mine)

    No thanks. Or rather, feel free if you want, but know that it will not be all. I cannot watch people I’m emotionally invested in squabble. I won’t say it’s a trigger, because it’s not to that level, but it makes me incredibly uncomfortable. That’s why I commented about having a place to take it. Some disagreements do need to be hashed out, but I don’t want to see it happen. Maybe it has something to do with all the arguing and fighting in my house as I was growing up, I don’t know. What I do know is that when regulars take off their gloves with each other, I put on my coat.

  167. 667
    Pteryxx

    I sincerely hope that you-all enjoy your tea and squee and soft cushions and fire stories and recipe-swapping and friendly sociality over here.

    Because recipes and rat pictures always turn left, how boring. /sarcasm

    (misc catching up)

    Caine, I’m so sorry about Chas. Thanks for the Guinness glass photo.

  168. 668
    dianne

    I go away for an extended-ish weekend and y’all murder each other.

    It’s just a flesh wound! We’re feeling much better!

  169. 669
    David Marjanović

    And in light of the New Rules, I will not be addressing the scurrilous lies that were posted about me yesterday evening.

    I’ll catch up sometime and get to them – I may not recognize them, though; not only don’t I know you as well as you do, I’ve never paid a lot of attention to exactly who said exactly what.

    I can only guess that they were the product of wildly misdirected antisemitism.

    This snark, on the other hand, is nothing short of bullying. You know full well this had decidedly unfunny consequences when Greg Laden said it – and now you repeat it? Dump that shit, and then flush, and then use the brush till the toilet is clean.

  170. 670
    dianne

    The best way of fighting blindness resulting from diabetes is good blood glucose level control.

    Can be easier said than done. Current methods of controlling glucose are imperfect. I’d be happy to see something new come out. But don’t necessarily expect goji berries to be it. On the disguising the taste front, how about extracting the active ingredient and putting it in a pill? More reliable, more consistent dose, and the taste issue disappears.

  171. 671
    Pteryxx

    Cut up a tomato and decorate top with it. (This makes it look much more expensive than it is if you can find a really good tomato.)

    Maybe I’m just glad to be back but I LOL’d

    (meta re New Rules) …One side effect of all this mess is that I’m now very suspicious of the claim of “lie” instead of “mistake” or “misinterpretation” in a personal argument. “Lie” had better measure up to really high standards now.

  172. 672
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @David M:

    It’s more related to the last sentence of that paragraph and the separated sentence I wrote.

    People may not want to post here if they don’t feel safe, some people don’t feel safe posting during shouting matches. I know whenever I see arguments going on in here I stop posting because it feels like having teatime in the center of a boxing match.

    Those kinds of shouting matches overwhelm TET, and it’s chief among the reasons we don’t see a lot of posters here anymore. It’s been stated many times by people in various different forums that the shouting matches between certain regular posters is what drives people away from here.

    I don’t mind TET as a place for socializing. I am happy knowing that when arguments get to the point of driving people away, they’ll be corralled into another area entirely.

  173. 673
    David Marjanović

    I won’t say it’s a trigger, because it’s not to that level, but it makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

    Oh, yeah… this. :-( My brother has that. (He reacts by becoming extremely aggressive; anger is his default negative emotion.) I instead jump in and deal out SIWOTI syndrome way past my bedtime till everyone gets bored, or beyond… if I happen to be awake at the moment; most TET drama happens on American evenings.

    What I’ve seen a lot while scrolling through the last two subthreads is people trying to classify other people and making lots of unwarranted assumptions about each other – assumptions that completely poisoned the discussion. I think both sgbm and some of his most vocal opponents have done that; I’ll catch up ASAP and check if that’s true. That’s right, I plan to dissect the entire drama and make an Inside Nature’s Giants show of it.

    And now, alas, I’ll finally stop procrastinating (I spent quite some time thinking about this comment) and book the trip to Spain and back. I’ve been pushing this off for… weeks, probably.

  174. 674
    carlie

    When one adopts a dog, it’s a lifetime commitment unless you think dogs, particularly elderly, blind and needy dogs are disposable.

    I spent well over a year giving my elderly pet almost-daily IV fluids until she died on my bed; trust me, I know about the commitment. But there are times when people simply can’t take on that burden, and they usually feel bad enough about it without judgmental piling-on. Especially after RahXenon had just said they already got read the riot act over it.

    I sincerely hope that you-all enjoy your tea and squee and soft cushions and fire stories and recipe-swapping and friendly sociality over here.

    It is nice to have that, dammit. There’s nothing saying that this blog is getting all squee happy cushions. Just that there’s enough sociality built up here that it’s nice to have one single thread for that kind of thing. Just one, out of all of them. All the others are for big-teeth rawr ripping apart, and I assume that the same people who like to chill and swap garden stories
    in one thread would be happy to shred each other in another thread and then come right back here for beer talk. It’s just a single outlet for the non-fight kinds of discussions.
    Why is that bad?

  175. 675
    David Marjanović

    One side effect of all this mess is that I’m now very suspicious of the claim of “lie” instead of “mistake” or “misinterpretation” in a personal argument. “Lie” had better measure up to really high standards now.

    Oh yes. I’ve never understood why so many people – in the world in general – toss around “lie” so blithely.

    I know whenever I see arguments going on in here I stop posting because it feels like having teatime in the center of a boxing match.

    I don’t understand that. Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    I have, IIRC, repeatedly ignored shouting matches (because their topics weren’t interesting to me) and kept posting about other things on the same subthread.

  176. 676
    Pteryxx

    Random: I came across this really good, readable post about diversity in hiring – not just why diversity is valuable (with references), but what it felt like to screen applicants anonymously, and helpful suggestions for doing so.

    Now, whenever I screen resumes, I ask the recruiter to black out any demographic information from the resume itself: name, age, gender, country of origin. The first time I did this experiment, I felt a strange feeling of vertigo while reading the resume. “Who is this guy?” I had a hard time forming a visual image, which made it harder to try and compare each candidate to the successful people I’d worked with in the past. It was an uncomfortable feeling, which instantly revealed just how much I’d been relying on surface qualities when screening resumes before – even when I thought I was being 100% meritocratic. And, much to my surprise (and embarrassment), the kinds of people I started phone-screening changed immediately.

    http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2010/02/why-diversity-matter-meritocracy.html

  177. 677
    David Marjanović

    It’s just a single outlet for the non-fight kinds of discussions.
    Why is that bad?

    Because I don’t think you can separate different kinds of discussions so neatly.

    ~~~~~

    I think we need a creationist. Or three.

  178. 678
    David Marjanović

    this really good, readable post about diversity in hiring

    Awesome.

  179. 679
    carlie

    I don’t understand that. Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    For me it’s not that I might turn into collateral damage; it’s that I feel somehow like not acknowledging that it’s happening is rude, but I also don’t want to butt into something that’s between two (or more) other people, especially if I don’t quite understand what the fight is really about. It’s a conundrum between two forms of social rudeness, and I don’t know what to do, so I just sit out until it’s over.

  180. 680
    Pteryxx

    David M:

    I don’t understand that. Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    Not all of us can make that absolute separation; and collateral damage absolutely can be nonphysical (triggering, silencing, stereotype threat, bigotry-enabling insults).

  181. 681
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    I don’t understand that. Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    I have, IIRC, repeatedly ignored shouting matches (because their topics weren’t interesting to me) and kept posting about other things on the same subthread.

    I’ll put it this way. Your ability to ignore a shouting match is like other people’s ability to ignore somebody being Wrong On The Internet.

  182. 682
    carlie

    Because I don’t think you can separate different kinds of discussions so neatly.

    I think it’s fairly loose, though. Little spats are fine, but once things get really heated and start to go for a dozen or so back and fort posts without getting anywhere, anyone annoyed can ask the participants to take it to the other thread. If they’re invested in the argument they will; if they really didn’t care that much in the first place they can drop it.

  183. 683
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    I spent well over a year giving my elderly pet almost-daily IV fluids until she died on my bed; trust me, I know about the commitment. But there are times when people simply can’t take on that burden, and they usually feel bad enough about it without judgmental piling-on. Especially after RahXenon had just said they already got read the riot act over it.

    Not that it’s any of quoderat’s fucking business, but let’s go over my personal checklist:

    1. I’m sick. I have allergies that are pretty debilitating. Without medication I have almost constant congested ears which makes me dizzy, and sinus headaches. The dogs, which are not hypoallergenic, don’t help in that regard. There are days where I don’t even feel like getting out of bed, let alone taking them for walks (you know, out in the fucking cottonwood snow-storms we get here).

    2. I’m depressed. It’s mostly due to my living situation, and it’s improved a bit lately, partly because I finally found an allergy medication that at least helps instead of doing fucking nothing.

    3. My parents are disabled, and I live with them. The dogs are actually family dogs and for a long time, my parents refused to get rid of the dogs because of the emotional ties, but they also aren’t physically capable of taking care of the dogs themselves. Even if I moved out they wouldn’t be able to keep them.

    4. The expense. I’m in college, trying not to fret about the debt puddling around my ankles, and my parents are also pretty cash-strapped. Taking the dogs with us would require paying huge pet deposits, and I also feel bad because I can’t afford to take them to the vet or the groomers as much as they need it.

    So, yeah. The last thing I need is some entitled asshole treating me like I’m a fucking two year old who’s got a puppy and five minutes later got bored of it. I’ve spent lots of time considering the situation and even more time trying to adapt and manage.

  184. 684
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Re: dogs:
    So… people should never give up their kids, either? Afterall, one could argue that kids are much more of a commitment than dogs and yet we have mechanisms in place to find children new homes* if their parents feel that they cannot care for their children.

    Would you react the same way if, say, someone dealing with addiction decided to give up their parental rights or would you act the same way? If not, what makes dogs different?

    *I do not want to get into an argument about our shitty foster care system. That’s not my point. The point is giving your child up because you can no longer care for them.

  185. 685
    keenacat

    Good morning horde.

    Giliell,
    I’m currently stalking your german blog and i lurve it! We shall get together and make stuff happen in the kitchen.

    Re feeding oneself at low cost:
    It really depends on what you can access when it comes to foodstuff. I understand that especially in the US, there are food deserts where your choices are severely limited.
    For me pretty much all food groups were readily avaliable and besides a lactose intolerance I have hardly any disabilities than limit my choices (my depression has made me unable to cook in the past, so I know cooking from scratch is not for everyone). But still, here’s how I fed myself in the last few years, while I was a student.
    (Caveat: European bias)
    Something I used a lot for cheap cooking is a pressure cooker. It enabled me to use dried legumes, cook stews and make my own stock, stuff which usually needs a long cooking time and thus, lots of electricity. It also helps with using lesser quality meat in your cooking, as those pieces often need a long cooking time to soften the fibrous tissues. Scraps you’d usually discard while trimming veggies and meat can be used to make stock.
    I also have a wide array of durable, cheap and basic scaffolding around: dried legumes, dry pasta, rice, canned stuff like tomatoes, tuna, sweet corn and the occassional can of coconut cream (if I can get it cheap, I buy a few), accompanied by a selection of spices I use often: salt, pepper, thyme (dried or from my balcony), paprika, chilli, ground cumin and a decent indian curry mix.
    This stuff can be bought in bulk, kept for a looong time without spoiling (decent packaging provided) and makes a good backbone for a lot of different meals.
    If you own a freezer, there are even more options. I often stock berries, herbs, peas and frozen fish, and it helps keep spoilage in check, especially when buying in bulk: use it for bread (pre-portioned to thaw in batches), cheese (works surprisingly well, especially with grated varieties for pizza or pasta), left-over stews and broth (frozen in batches flat in freezer bags makes for easy stacking and thawing), fruit than threaten to spoil (makes superb smoothies) and dairy like buttermilk, cream etc.
    Keeping flour, oil and instant yeast around lets me make my own bread and pizza dough at a fraction of the cost of ready-made varieties, my sister even skips the yeast and makes a kind of flatbread for her pizza.
    A lot of things can be made using only your stock items (pasta with sauces, basic legume stews and curries…).
    On top of that I add whatever veggies I come across and the occassional meat. I also keep something to put on my bread.
    When it comes to shopping, in germany stuff has to have a label that gives the price for 100 g, 1 l or 1 kg, so prices are easily comparable and I compare a lot. Often bulk is cheaper, but beware, buyer, for the sellers try to hornswoggle* you. My current laundry detergent is cheaper when bought in smaller packages.

    *dict.leo.org gave this to me when I looked for the translation of “hereinlegen” (trick so.), and jeebus f. christ I love it!

  186. 686
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    So… people should never give up their kids, either?

    Apparently not. I’m trying to do the actually responsible thing, but this doesn’t occur to some people. Sometimes life is too complicated for the crowd who loves to just yell “YOU’RE THEIR FOREVER HOME!!11!1!1″ at you.

  187. 687
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @RahXephon:

    Ohoh, I see you’ve added to your nym :3

  188. 688
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Why oh why am I awake and on TET?

    Back to sleep for me. I have too much writing to do today and not enough sleep makes things take longer and results in poorer quality (that I will inevitably re-write, whether there’s really time to do so or not.

    So I’m gonna try to nap for a couple hours to top up the tank. I’ll likely be threadrupt until tomorrow. Sigh. At least I stayed up late last night and got all my garlic pre-peeled so that I can use it spontaneously in cooking.

    Because that’s what’s important.

  189. 689
    carlie

    God. I really didn’t need this today. graphic on how many women v. men are quoted in the media regarding women’s issues

  190. 690
    carlie

    …that was via Kristjan Wager, who I’d love to see back here commenting.

  191. 691
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @keenacat:

    Hellow, pretty-cat.

    there are food deserts where your choices are severely limited.

    I see what you did there.

  192. 692
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @David M:

    I have an extremely snarky personality, often times I have to clearly identify that I’m being sarcastic because my words can be taken incorrectly. While people are having the knock down fights among the commentariat here, I can make a little snarky response – perhaps not even related to the argument at all – and have it dragged in, my comment becoming collateral damage and suddenly I’m involved in the argument.

    It’s happened before. Once I’m involved in an argument it’s unlikely for me to shy away from it. I get very defensive, and I say really stupid things which makes people even more pick away at what I’m saying until I can’t handle it and run off upset. I hate it, and I can’t handle it. So when people are arguing, I don’t post for fear of my little snarky comments being turned into argument fodder.

  193. 693
    carlie

    Thanks, keenacat. I keep toying with the idea of a pressure cooker, but we do have a crockpot so that covers most of it. I’m absurdly, stupidly privileged in being able to shop at a farmer’s market pretty much any given day of the week (depending on how far I want to drive), and although we don’t have a chest freezer, I have all the standard amenities. I’m just not sure what to do; my spouse does most of the cooking, and it seems like all the healthy/cheap things I come up with get met with upturned noses by everyone else in the family *le sigh*.

  194. 694
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @carlie 188

    Oof. Yeah, I saw that infographic earlier. Have you noticed that there are people who have this attitude that people belonging to Marginalized Groups cannot comment on legislation or issues pertaining to those Marginalized Groups as if they have some conflict of interest? That’s completely backwards to me.

    Especially given that the rich straight white doodz on the pundit shows are the ones with a conflict of interest; oppressing Marginalized Groups maintains their cultural and political supremacy.

  195. 695
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    RX:
    I’m with you 100%. It’s different from your situation, but I know that around here our shelters are overflowing in large part because of home foreclosures. The nicer apartment complexes either do not allow pets or the deposit is so high to be unaffordable or they’ve been known to tack an extra charge onto the rent (one place I looked at wanted an extra $150 per month per cat!). What the hell are people supposed to do when their circumstances change and they find themselves in the financial crapper?

  196. 696
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    By the by, friends are always welcome to just call me Erulora. No accents, umlauts or surnames required. Especially if your keyboard, like mine, doesn’t really support them. Don’t feel obligated to copy and paste just to make my nym look right. And there will be no tests over proper pronunciation, because I’m pretty sure even I say it wrong.

  197. 697
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Dianne

    Mix together with enough water to make the dough just able to slowly glop off a spoon (does that description make sense?)

    Only after you made it for the first time.
    Because that was the feeling I got the first time making Spätzle. I was reading the recipe and went “WTF is that supposed to mean?”. Then I made the dough and had this lightbulb moment.
    Tupperware Germany has a great tool for making Spätzle. Maybe we can stuff a few into David’s luggage when goes to Rhinebeck.

    ++++
    Re: TET being the lounge.
    I don’t mind discussions or fights. But I share the sentiment that it was going so far that it was no longer a safe space.

  198. 698
    Pteryxx

    Especially given that the rich straight white doodz on the pundit shows are the ones with a conflict of interest; oppressing Marginalized Groups maintains their cultural and political supremacy.

    Dang, I JUST had this argument-by-proxy last night, with someone who doesn’t believe in diversity hiring because “someone’s father or brother etc” (white of course) might get unfairly not-hired. Hello, the status quo already IS unfair to real actual people, just in the other direction.

  199. 699
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    Kitty @191

    Yep, that too.

  200. 700
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Audley

    I’m with you 100%.

    Thanks. :)

    It’s different from your situation, but I know that around here our shelters are overflowing in large part because of home foreclosures. The nicer apartment complexes either do not allow pets or the deposit is so high to be unaffordable or they’ve been known to tack an extra charge onto the rent (one place I looked at wanted an extra $150 per month per cat!).

    That’s basically what’s happening to me. In fact, I got my cat in the first place from a friend, and why did my friend have to give her away? Her complex (which originally didn’t have an anti-pet policy) changed management and they wanted $250 per cat plus extra rent.

    That’s another thing that aggravates me about clueless people like quoderat: keeping (or in this case not keeping) pets can be a class and economic issue, and they ignore that aspect. If I can’t keep my pet, I’m just a lazy asshole to them.

  201. 701
    dianne

    @196: In my mind, I was also trying to translate the description into German. I have no idea how to say “glop off a spoon” auf Deutsch. In fact, I’m a little vague on the exact definition auf Englisch as well. Just sort of…descriptive of what the dough does.

  202. 702
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    RX:
    Yep, the class issue was what I was trying to get at in the end. Shit happens, circumstances change and why should both the family and the animal suffer because of it? *head shake* It makes no sense to me.

  203. 703
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Given your distaste for the cold, are you one of those 15 blanket types during winter?

    Two light blankets and a heavy quilt year round. Over winter, I keep a heating pad plugged in. :D

    Jeffrey:

    Not that anyone has had a real reason to miss me*, but I may return if the room is again worth entering.

    I’ve missed you, something ferocious. So good to see you here, Dearest.

    Ogvorbis, so glad you’re back.

    Pteryxx:

    Caine, I’m so sorry about Chas. Thanks for the Guinness glass photo.

    Thank you, Pteryxx.

    quoderatdemonstrandum, way to be an asshole.

    RahXephon, I’m so sorry about your dog situation. I’d check with any local no kill shelter, as they are often affiliated with a foster program. You might be able to find someone happy to foster your dogs.

    For those who are moaning the horror of TET being an actual social lounge, there’s TZT. Fight all you want.

  204. 704
    dianne

    The determinedly literal part of my mind insists that if Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin were combined, they’d be so busy fighting each other internally that they wouldn’t have time to cause any further trouble. The Antichrist I can’t comment on, having no idea who or what he/she/it is.

  205. 705
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Dianne
    The German recipe said “bis der Teig zähflüssig vom Löffel reißt”.
    Probably something you have to see before you understand. Although that’s something that happens to me often. I read a description, don’t understand it, figure it out on my own and then understand the instruction. It usually happens when visual information is translated into text.

    RahXephon
    I remember you posting about this before and you come off like actually giving a lot about what happens to these dogs.

    keenacat
    Thanx. Yep, we really need to do that. Be aware that I’m the Queen of Chaos :)

    And I love my freezer. It saves so much time.

  206. 706
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    RahXephon, I’m so sorry about your dog situation. I’d check with any local no kill shelter, as they are often affiliated with a foster program. You might be able to find someone happy to foster your dogs.

    Thanks, Caine. Yeah, that’s probably what I’ll have to do.

  207. 707
    Ingdigo Jump

    My PI is a bitter twisted Lich who either needs to remove what’s up their ass or stick something up it. I’m getting punished for being married and they’re making it as difficult as possible to get a new job…and taking delight in making me train my replacement….yeah we can’t afford my job but here’s a replacement. Up to arms in catch up and on injured leg and they’re piling on now watching me like a hawk to ensure I don’t “cheat” and do anything job search related on anything but my own personal time…again afetr telling me I shoould spend my Honeymoon job searching.

  208. 708
    Inaji

    David:

    I have, IIRC, repeatedly ignored shouting matches (because their topics weren’t interesting to me) and kept posting about other things on the same subthread.

    That’s nice for you. Why are you assuming it’s this way for everyone else? Also, I’ll add that it’s pretty impossible to successfully put yourself on ignore when you’re the one targeted.

  209. 709
    myeck waters

    I hesitate to post this, but a few people seem to be having trouble with their sewing machines, and sewing machine repair happens to be my job. It may just be an exercise in frustration, but if you think it may be worth the trouble, I’d be willing to try. I’m pretty sure my email in is my profile.

  210. 710
    opposablethumbs

    Glop off a spoon … it took me ages to get the consistency right for one specific stage of the pizza-dough-making – the stage at which the recipe-originator (and expert pizza-maker) said by email from several thousand miles away that I should aim for the consistency of “un engrudo líquido, vos sabés” (“runny paste, you know what I mean” – well no, actually, I didn’t … but I do now :) )

  211. 711
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ing,
    When you do leave, is there any way you can scan &/or photocopy your butt and send the resulting pics to management/HR? It sounds like those assholes probably won’t be willing to give you a recommendation anyway, so you might as well burn a few bridges on your way out.

  212. 712
    pentatomid

    David,

    It’s great that you can ignore stuff like that. Really, it must be very nice for you. However I for one, can’t. I felt extremely uncomfortable with the whole mess of the last few days, even though I wasn’t involved myself.

  213. 713
    dianne

    “bis der Teig zähflüssig vom Löffel reißt”.

    Much prettier sounding than glop…except for my initial misreading of zaeh as Zeh, which made for a disturbing mental image.

  214. 714
    keenacat

    I’m just not sure what to do; my spouse does most of the cooking, and it seems like all the healthy/cheap things I come up with get met with upturned noses by everyone else in the family *le sigh*.

    Ah, I see your problem. What’s your family usually into, food-wise? Meat-n-potato or rather pasta-n-pizza or sweet stuff, for example?
    Something I make often and have had gleefully recieved by pretty much everyone is tomato-cannellini-bean-stew. I don’t use much actual recipes when cooking, but here’s an approximation:
    (Will feed four to six, depending on hunger and side dishes)
    500g dry cannellini beans
    6 cups plain water, no salt
    if available, 1 bay leaf or a pinch of savory

    Either soak beans for 7-12 hours and cook for about 1 hour until soft or use the pressure cooker, no soaking, cook for 30 mins. Do not drain!
    Brown
    2 small onions, cubed in a skillet and add to the bean pot.
    Add
    2 cups of tomato puree
    1 can of cubed tomatoes
    3 Tsp sugar
    .
    Let simmer for about 20 minutes. Season generously with pepper, salt, chili and a pinch of hot paprika. Serve with bread and possibly a sausage.

  215. 715
    feralboy12

    Ing, you might also think about playing the boss’s head like a bongo on your way out.
    OK, maybe not actually do that, but certainly think about it.

  216. 716
    Matt Penfold

    Glop off a spoon … it took me ages to get the consistency right for one specific stage of the pizza-dough-making – the stage at which the recipe-originator (and expert pizza-maker) said by email from several thousand miles away that I should aim for the consistency of “un engrudo líquido, vos sabés” (“runny paste, you know what I mean” – well no, actually, I didn’t … but I do now :) )

    One thing I have learnt about making bread, and that is all a pizza base is after all, is that the dough should be much wetter than you think.

  217. 717
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    myeck waters – hoorraay! I’m not sure the machine needs to be fixed, so much as my dumb ass needs to learn basic problemshooting.

    I’m hoping an explanation of what’s happening can help you help me figure out what the hell I did wrong!

  218. 718
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Oh, I didn’t have a chance to mention it in the other TET, but whoever gave me the advice on scrambling eggs? It totally worked! They came out creamy and soft, but not soggy, and not burnt at all. I put them in a tortilla with cheese and salsa and it tasted just like a McDonald’s breakfast burrito (which I do mean as a compliment, lol).

  219. 719
    Pteryxx

    I put them in a tortilla with cheese and salsa and it tasted just like a McDonald’s breakfast burrito (which I do mean as a compliment, lol).

    *whispers* If you really want a shock, compare the price. ~;>

  220. 720
    RichardAustin

    So, Stephen Baxter and Terry Pratchett are collaborating on a new book. This should be interesting.

  221. 721
    Pteryxx

    Truck-driver tan as a case report in New England Journal of Medicine:

    http://boingboing.net/2012/06/04/kids-wear-your-sunblock.html

  222. 722
    A. R

    Thanks for the gardening related input horde! I’m going to look into Louise Odier a abit more. I already grow hybrid perpetuals, teas, and hybrid teas, so my soil is quite good for roses.

    cicely: If you want a scented rose, try a Damask rose (reddish-pink Old Garden), or Mister Lincoln (red Hybrid Tea), or Peace (white hybrid tea).

  223. 723
    Predator Handshake

    RahXephon: I’d dig back to wherever that advice was, but it seems like some heavy shit has been going down in these things the past few days so I’ll just ask directly. Would you mind reposting or paraphrasing the scrambled eggs advice? I eat a lot of eggs, but usually the only time I do scrambled is if I make a mistake trying to do them some other way. I would eat scrambled eggs way more if I had a good method other than “cook them until I’m absolutely sure they’re done (by burning them)”.

    I’m worried about my dog! She hasn’t been her usual chipper self for a couple of days and seems to be having some issue with getting on the furniture with me. I think her stomach was bothering her; it felt a bit swollen and tight, but seems to be getting better. She hasn’t thrown up or shown any signs of gastrointestinal problems, but that tightness combined with the lethargy makes me concerned. I’m taking her to the vet this afternoon and hoping that she just had some gas or something. The good news is that she was chasing birds and barking at neighbors this morning, so at least she seems to be feeling a bit better.

  224. 724
    Nutmeg

    Tony:

    Do you feel you’re a bit of a loner?

    I need a lot of personal space and alone time, which people have sometimes interpreted as me being a loner. I’m not a big fan of that term, because I heard it a lot in middle school and it wasn’t a friendly thing. I prefer to say introvert. (If you also consider yourself to be an introvert, I highly recommend the book Quiet by Susan Cain. It’s about being a successful introvert in a society designed for extroverts.)

    There have been times in my life that I’ve had a good social group, but I was always a bit on the edge of things. (We were actually discussing this in TET a couple of days ago.) I think that kids and teenagers are generally less accepting of people who need their space, and there’s stigma attached to being seen alone in the library with a good book. And I was a somewhat weird teenager (nerdy, shy, religious, and tomboyish), so I had lots of reasons to be on the outside.

    I’ve found that I fit in a lot better now that I mostly spend time with other biology grad students. I still feel on the outside sometimes, but not nearly as much. I feel like I really lucked out socially when I chose biology as a career – many of the other women are tomboys, lots of people are atheists, and no one is surprised to meet a shy scientist. But when I’m not in a situation where there are people similar to me, I default to being alone rather than trying to fit in in a group I have little in common with.

    I can understand what you say about being careful how close you get to people. I like to know people very well before I reveal too much about myself or become too dependent on their friendship.

    ***

    Ogvorbis, you’re back! Yay!

    ***

    So, Stephen Baxter and Terry Pratchett are collaborating on a new book.

    Eeee!

    ***

    I think I like having TET as a social space. I doubt that PZ expects it all to be fluffy bunnies and kittens, just that prolonged heated disagreements go elsewhere. Personally, I don’t mind arguments that take up, say, less than one Thread. But I’m also okay with it if people take it to TZT when they have a disagreement that they can’t hash out quickly. And I enjoy the comments of many who haven’t been comfortable with the recent atmosphere. If a change will bring them back here more often, I’m in favour of it.

  225. 725
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Katherine:

    the first jazz metal band…

    While it may be the first jazz metal band of which you’ve heard, there have been quite a few jazz and funk influenced bands that play something that could be called “metal”.

    Billy Sheehan and Mr. Big played jazz glam-metal, for instance. Fishbone’s music could be called jazz-metal or funk-metal. Although funk is not swing, it is very much jazz and Fishbone is the best jazz-metal band of which I can think off the top of my head. They start with tower of power, mix it thoroughly with a driving metal line that could come from Metallica or Randy Rhodes (though, obviously, by mixing it in with Tower of Power this becomes disguised to some degree, just as it no longer sounds like Tower of Power either). The base lines aren’t worthy of Jaco Pastorius, but they have some of his Chicken-type, fast-forward jazz lines. BIlly Sheehan would have fit right in to Fishbone and, indeed, apparently jammed with them (though I’m not aware of any touring or recording together).

    Diablo is very, very heavily swing-oriented if that particular piece is any indication. Although “Cherry-Poppin Daddies” is an offensive name, the band itself played an aggressive, guitar-heavy swing that has a lot of overlap with (though less distortion than) the song above. Mighty Mighty Bosstones likewise has an aggressive, guitar heavy style, though they play an even cleaner sound than CPD.

    These are just the bands that received the most airplay in the US with a jazz-and-metal influenced style. Again, swing is a very specific style, but if you’re interested in jazz-metal, there’s more out there than the Diablo Swing Orchestra.

    Hope you enjoy it all.

    Oh, and though it’s not metal, FFS listen to some Jaco Pastorius. Anyone who hasn’t is depraved on account a xe’s deprived.

  226. 726
    Nutmeg

    Predator Handshake: Keep an eye on that dog! A swollen, tight belly can be a sign of gastric torsion, which is fatal if not treated promptly. It’s most common in large-breed dogs. If she shows signs of gastrointestinal pain, especially with unproductive heaving, you should take her to an emergency clinic immediately.

    But if she’s feeling better, hopefully it’s something that is resolving itself. I’m glad that you’re taking her to the vet just in case.

  227. 727
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Would you mind reposting or paraphrasing the scrambled eggs advice?

    As far as I remember (and this is what I did), I beat the eggs with a whisk, without adding liquid. Then I added them to a pan on low heat, and kept stirring them. For awhile I thought I was doing it wrong, but it just takes a bit for the egg to heat up. It eventually started to coagulate and I kept stirring until they were a little bit gooey-but-not-raw looking (I’m not sure how to describe it). That’s pretty much it. The low heat takes longer, but it does keep them from getting scorched.

  228. 728
    Predator Handshake

    Nutmeg: she’s a smallish spitz mix, so if it’s that awful thing then she’d be a rare case I guess. She really didn’t act like she was in any pain; just lazier than normal and not as inclined to jump on things. Thanks for the advice by the way; I think you gave me a nice reply a few months ago when I posted about her acting like she was dizzy.

  229. 729
    Predator Handshake

    RahXephon: thanks (to you and whoever posted it originally), that’s actually perfect for my cooking situation! I have non-stick pans that I’m not exactly used to, and I’m very paranoid about keeping the heat low.

  230. 730
    opposablethumbs

    I think I already recc’d “Making History” by Stephen Fry at some point (ages ago), but as long as book titles are floating around I think it should be mentioned. It’s got witty writing, history, alternative timelines, re-writing the past, UK and US stuff and WWII, crime and spying and tension and action and danger and m/m romance – what’s not to love?

  231. 731
    Dhorvath, OM

    On the changes: Nothing ever stays the same, nor was it likely how I remember it being. I can appreciate that the new rules will help make many people more comfortable commenting here just as I am aware that some others will find it less welcoming. I am still navigating my new schedule to find some regular toe dipping time, but regardless of how the thread changes I doubt I will ever approach the level of engagement I had previously and that makes me nostalgic. So a melodramatic sniff and a bright eye looking forwards to seeing where we go from here.

  232. 732
    David Marjanović

    In the unlikely case anyone hasn’t seen RMONEY yet.

  233. 733
    Inaji

    Also, additions to the earlier book recommendations: Speaks the Nightbird and The Queen of Bedlam by Robert McCammon. Excellent, historical detection novels.

  234. 734
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    friendly conversation, which can include friendly disagreement

    *sigh* The Fluffy Thread it is, then.

    On the upside, maybe disinterested third parties might feel better about posting “see, here’s where you went wrong”, without the risk of incurring a tirade, or being accused of taking a side. I might try that. (Honestly.)

    David M:

    the zombie thread; but it grows too fast and contains very boring people

    *pouts*

    consciousness razor, you ask, I answer. (Probably hard to find in the US.)

  235. 735
    rorschach

    I can appreciate that the new rules will help make many people more comfortable commenting here

    What did I miss ?

  236. 736
    Pteryxx

    (rage warning for naming names)

    (srsly, do not read this without a pillow or very calm pet to scream into)

    So, why don’t victims just report to the authorities who totally have their best interests at heart again?

    “In society, sometimes we question why rape victims are reluctant to come forward. So now we have our answer. …We are disappointed.”—Ben Andreozzi, attorney for Victim 4 in the case against Jerry Sandusky, the former Penn State assistant football coach whose trial on charges of child rape is soon to start. Judge John Cleland has ruled that the complainants’ “identities may not be concealed during the trial, although they will be protected through the jury selection process.”

    Via Shakes. Cited article here:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/04/justice/pennsylvania-sandusky-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

  237. 737
  238. 738
    ChasCPeterson

    I’ll catch up sometime and get to them

    Don’t let the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about restrain you from commenting anyway.

    I may not recognize them, though

    you’ll recognize them–they were very obvious jokes…

    This snark, on the other hand, is nothing short of bullying

    …as was (I thought obviously) my reply.

  239. 739
    Pteryxx

    Predator Handshake: Excellent timing, and thanks.

  240. 740
    ChasCPeterson

    rorschach:
    New Rules, following up on this hammerage.

  241. 741
    onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork

    I’d be lying if I said the only thing keeping me away from TET since October was the utter clusterfuck of stress and time-sink my job became. Unfortunately, I still have the clusterfuck time-sink, so I can’t say that I’ll be here any more frequently…but I will say I’m much more likely now to give it a shot if I do have the time. :)

    I can’t ignore arguments either, and my daily job is dealing with clients who are angry, aggressive, and verbally abusive–it’s hard for me to ‘just scroll past’ fights online that have elements of those things.

    And now my lunch break is gone. :( *hugs*

  242. 742
    Aratina Cage

    I can’t wait to make my first TITTZT recommendation.

  243. 743
    pentatomid

    A little question for the gardeners among us: Does anyone have any advice on growing mosses?
    I was thinking of starting a little moss/rock garden in a shady spot next to the house, so any advice would be welcome. Not much else will grow there, so I thought mosses might be cool.

    Predator Handshake,
    Awesome dog!

  244. 744
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Bah. So damned threadrupt it isn’t even funny. I’ve read the most current TET and that’s it.

    myeck: You fix sewing machines? I have one, it is broken (the advancer-thingies on the floor below the needle – “dogs?” are jammed in the down position). I never use it anyway. May I offer it to you for parts?

    JAL, are you still asking for book recommendations? If so: (1) Ursula Le Guin, especially The Left Hand of Darkness, The Disposessed, “The Matter of Seggri, “Those Who Walk Away from Omelas,” and “Old Music and the Slave Women.” This last one makes me cry my eyes out, it is so good. Also: (2) James Tiptree. Wrote creepy-good stuff. Most notably “Love is the Plan the Plan is Death,” “The Screwfly Solution,” and “The Women Men Don’t See.” Also amazing is “With Delicate Mad Hands.” Other suggestions: Tamora Pierce. Awesome.

    I got in a fight with my parents about the whole lesbian thing. UGH.

  245. 745
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    Aratina Cage

    Would that be, “TITTZT or GTFO”?

  246. 746
    pentatomid

    Since we’re talking cute dogs, here’s one that’s a little scary.

  247. 747
    Predator Handshake

    pentatomid: I hope that dog’s name is Wilhelm.

  248. 748
    Aratina Cage

    @Erülóra Maikalambe
    Hah! They are pretty much interchangeable, aren’t they? And they even make a good pair of options for trolls (as opposed to Pharyngulites bickering): 1) TITZIT, or 2) GTFO.

  249. 749
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    I don’t expect TET to become all Junior-Leaguey (weird American women’s club fond of tea, cotillions, and condescention to the lower classes via ladylike volunteer work), but I’m very glad to see more people participating and deflouncing. I guess some people are able to engage with ideas-not-people; I don’t find that realistic for my own life. I learn better when ideas come from people with recipes, stories, weird quirks… Improves my compassion, my recognition of how other people’s experiences differ from mine, and just generally makes me happier. I’ve been thinking about the relative lack of overall acrimony in other groups I’ve been in, despite having some very very acrimonious exchanges about very personal issues, and I think part of the reason that the group survived and people learned stuff is that individual people had a sense of each other as real people with real lives (related to G+/FB people-behave-differently-with-real-names idea, although I find I behave myself fairly well with a stable nym) and even the people arguing wanted the group qua group to survive. Not everyone finds TET, or any other online group, to be a significant source of social support and intellectual challenge at the same time – some people draw a hardline distinction between online (not real) relationships and meatspace relationships. I can’t do that, and I find that online relationships in communities such as this one are very important to me.

    Speaking of the New Roolz™, can we get some weirder decor in the living room? My living room has a swing, lots of pillows, rabbits, cats, a ball python, and a whole lotta clutter. We should be able to fit in a cephalopod in a tank, a bunch of lava lamps, a huge case of nerf weapons, a ball pit, and a spinning wheel, floor loom, and wood carving center.

    @ Sili – Glad the Heirloom Bong™ story was useful. (Short version – various Spawns have been promised that if they delay use of various psychoactives until myelination is a bit further along, they will receive said items. It’s amazing how much cred this gives them with age-peers about why they choose not to indulge at present and how little push-back they get.)

    Re rehoming/euthanizing animals – it’s never easy for people who talk about it. The people for whom it’s easy to dump or euthanize pets do not show up on internet forums talking about it – it doesn’t even enter their mind that it might be an ethical or emotional problem. These are the people who show up unannounced at our nature center and demand that we accept their rabbit/turtle/snake/dove/whatever, get huffy when we tell them no, and then dump it in the park.

    For anyone interested in crafting without the odious religion tone of many crafting forums, there’s also a FB group Crafting Without Religion. Not a Pharyngula spinoff per se. There’s a Pharyngula Rav group, but it’s not particularly active. For active Rav groups, I’d go with either Atheists and Agnostics or Lazy-Stupid-Godless. (Note – I’m not a hugely active Rav person.)

  250. 750
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    From Pteryxx’s link:

    “I mean, my two favorite groups are the elderly and the young.”

    In other words, two group who are traditionally seen as being vulnerable. Ugh. Sandusky gives me the fucking willies.

    Also: fuck that judge. Could this be because the victims are male, I wonder?

  251. 751
    Lynna, OM

    So, Brad Pitt and George Clooney will be giving mormon leaders a few more headaches. Good.

    http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2012/06/05/recording_of_8_with_pitt_clooney_to_be_on_radio/

    The star-studded West Coast performance of the gay marriage play “8″ led by George Clooney and Brad Pitt will be heard again this month — on radio and online.

    A recording by L.A. Theatre Works of the March 3 performance in Los Angeles will be broadcast in the coming days on 90.7 KPFK in Southern California, 89.7 WGBH in Boston, 91.5 WBEZ in Chicago, 94.9 KUOW in Seattle, 91.1 KRCB in San Francisco, 89.3 WPFW in Washington, D.C.; and over 100 other markets nationwide. June is Gay Pride Month.

    The play is about the 2010 federal court fight against Proposition 8, the gay-marriage ban that California voters approved in 2008. The play by Oscar winner Dustin Lance Black made its Broadway debut last year in similar starry fashion….

    In addition to Clooney and Pitt, the Los Angeles edition also featured Kevin Bacon, Jamie Lee Curtis, Christine Lahti, Jane Lynch, Martin Sheen and John C. Reilly. It was directed by Rob Reiner.

    The Los Angeles production is also available for streaming, download and CD at http://www.latw.org

  252. 752
    RichardAustin

    So, news on the Prop 8 front.

    Docket Text:
    Filed Order for PUBLICATION (STEPHEN R. REINHARDT, MICHAEL DALY HAWKINS and N. RANDY SMITH) (Dissent by Judge O’Scannlain, Concurrence by Judge Reinhardt) A majority of the panel has voted to deny the petition for rehearing en banc. Judge N.R. Smith would grant the petition. The full court was advised of the petition for rehearing en banc. A judge requested a vote on whether to rehear the matter en banc. The matter failed to receive a majority of the votes of the non-recused active judges in favor of en banc consideration. Fed. R. App. P. 35. The petition for rehearing en banc is DENIED. The mandate is stayed for ninety days pending the filing of a petition for writ of certiorari in the Supreme Court. If such a petition is filed, the stay shall continue until final disposition by the Supreme Court. [8202067] [10-16696, 11-16577] (RP)

    Shorter: The 9th circuit denied the appeal. So, either the proponents of Prop 8 petition the SC to take the case or the current ruling stands and, in 90 days, Prop 8 disappears.

    There’s debate as to whether or not SCotUS will grant cert on the case – since it’s so extremely limited, they might just decline. So, we may be nearly done with this nonsense.

  253. 753
    pentatomid

    Wilhelm… Ha! Apparently his name is Cody, though he sure seems to disagree.

  254. 754
    Inaji

    Onion Girl! :tackle hugs: Miss you.

    Aratina Cage:

    I can’t wait to make my first TITTZT recommendation.

    This will be good. :D

  255. 755
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Audley: Ugh, that kind of shit should not surprise me, but it’s always a new kind of disgust finding out more ways women are treated like decorative property. And heaven forbid they should be insufficiently the former.

    ibyea: I’m sorry your bother is being awful.

    Caine and Pteryxx: You’re back! YAY!

  256. 756
    Nutmeg

    Esteleth: :( about your parents. I got the impression that you had been out to them for a while and they were doing okay with it. Not the case? I hope things improve.

  257. 757
    SallyStrange

    Seconding the tackles, hugs, and YAYs!

  258. 758
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    rainbows, butterflies, puppy breath, marshmallows, cotton candy, Justin Bieber, the wiggles, daffodils, feety pajamas, lollipops, teddy bears, unicorns and cracker jacks.

    Doing my part for the new TET

  259. 759
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Oh, I’m out, and have been for awhile. They just didn’t appreciate (1) getting called on their privilege and (2) being told that they don’t get cookies for being Super Supportive™ of their kid while not budging on their shaming of other LGBT people.

  260. 760
    Pteryxx

    Also: fuck that judge. Could this be because the victims are male, I wonder?

    Category error: Victims cannot also be male, by definition.

    …Unless defending Sandusky as ‘the real victim here’…

    /totallyfuckingsarcasmheadexplode

  261. 761
    Ingdigo Jump

    All relaxation from honeymoon is now officially gonr…after two weeks away I don’t know how I handled this miserable feeling being SOP

  262. 762
    Inaji

    Happiestsadist:

    You’re back! YAY!

  263. 763
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Lynna, OM @ #250: I really wanna check that out, thanks!

    Esteleth: Sorry to hear about the argument. Wh the hell people thnk such things are a matter for arguing is beyond me. But then, last time I visited home, Mom delivered me a bit of a freakout over the genderqueer thing.

    RX: Sounds like you’re definitely doing the right thing. The people who are not you and don’t give a shit about your situation can fuck off. I got my amazing cat from a friend who was traveling a lot.

  264. 764
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Pteryxx: The Sandusky case keeps getting more and more revolting.

  265. 765
    Aratina Cage

    Rev, you forgot squidlings and pufflings!

    Richard Austin, great news! Thanks! Skipping en banc should help move the case to the finish line. I’m hopeful that either SCOTUS refuses to hear it, thus making PropH8 unconstitutional, or takes it up and gives Ted Olson a chance to win over a few of his conservative friends on the Court.

  266. 766
    Pteryxx

    HappiestSadist: *blush* thanks.

    Being TET-deprived sucked, and I’m not even all that social. Fortunately* there was this interesting dispute on much of the rest of FTB to keep me occupied.

    *for certain values of ‘fortunately’.

  267. 767
    myeck waters

    Esteleth

    You fix sewing machines? I have one, it is broken (the advancer-thingies on the floor below the needle – “dogs?” are jammed in the down position). I never use it anyway. May I offer it to you for parts?

    Yep, feed dogs is what they’re called. No idea why.
    Thanks for the offer. There are a handful of desirable brands (Pfaff, Bernina, old Viking) which are valuable enough to be cost-effective to ship. The others are, sadly not that valuable. Now, if you’ve got a Bernina, I’d gladly pay to get that, since I work for a Bernina shop.

  268. 768
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Just because I’m thinking about it.

    Geddy Lee first
    Jaco Pastorius hardest

    but
    Bootsy F*n Collins, flat out best at a party,
    Cliff Burton, the Randy Rhodes of the bass,
    Stu Hamm versatile as anyone,
    Flea, the punk-funk master,
    Billy Sheehan, the playful handbanger,
    Stanley Clarke, who goes from jazz to funk to fusion as easily as I go from one website to the next,
    and
    Les Claypool, who masters dissonance and melody to bring funk and metal together in a way that ain’t neither.

    all rocked my world by playing bass in ways that just opened my eyes to new possibilities.

    Of course, they’re all men, and there weren’t any women that rocked my world as hard as these men during those formative music-years of the late 80s and early 90s, but

    Vicky Aspinall was as inventive as Stanley Clarke
    and
    kathi wilcox who was as political as Gil Scott Heron

    both were welcome women-bassist role models for me when I discovered them in the late 90s and mid 90s respectively.

    Of course,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8jca8ZATfA“>Paul Simonon, (not Paul Simon) who helped put punk on the map,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK640dPPhXE“>John Fisher, who puts on an even better live show than Bootsy F*n Collins
    and
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrZ4sMRYimw&ob=av2n“>Greg K,

    also deserve to share some credit with Vicky Aspinall and kathi wilcox for moving me away from apolitical headbanging toward political-as-hell punk.

  269. 769
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Pteryyx:

    Seeing the level of fucking hero worship around Sandusky over this matter I won’t be surprised if there’s some sort of retaliation against the victims for speaking out.

  270. 770
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The argument was multi-pronged.
    *sigh*
    First: My mom says that I should hurry up and get married, my dad wants to be able to brag about how he’s going to his daughter’s wedding to another woman to his right-wing nutjob boss. I find this problematic (for SEVERAL reasons). They don’t get it and think that I’m just being mean and unfair, don’t they see that they love and support me and aren’t ashamed?
    Second: I mentioned the latest studies about how the under-30s don’t see LGBT rights as an issue. They’re a given, and the longer the over-30s are seen as being grumpy about it, the more the under-30s will lose respect for their elders and their institutions. Cue BUT BUT BUT THESE THINGS ARE COMPLICATED WE GOTTA TALK ABOUT THEM. *headdesk*
    Third: My dad has this habit of bringing up stuff that some LGBT person somewhere (usually it is Dan Savage or Barney Franks) said/did that is So! Damn! Terrible! And! Offensive! Don’t I agree?!
    Fourth: I mentioned how it isn’t enough for the atheists and gay people to yell at the Christianists, fundies, and professional anti-gays – the mainstream Christians need to yell at them too, and their failure to do so is why the mainstream non-obviously-hatey Christians are rejected by atheists and LGBT people and allies. Cue BUT BUT BUT THAT’S NOT FAIR.

    ARGH.

  271. 771
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Ack –

    PZ, I’m sorry. I set out a great post on bass players and it has entered the spam-filter-zone due to links.

    I haz a sad, and I’m sorry for creating more work for you.

    I hope it wins through moderation soon.

  272. 772
    Pteryxx

    re the Sandusky case and this latest revoltingness: I rather hope right now that someone, anyone, makes a fresh naive comment about how victims should just quit being cowards and come forward, or about how they ought to trust whoever they report to. Because this victim #4 has already had his anonymity respected by investigators and his attorney up to this point, but someone who has not even been involved in the case until now – this judge – is going to destroy that protection at will.

  273. 773
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    Forgot to say this earlier, but:

    Thank you, Giliell.

  274. 774
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    myeck, this is a late-70′s Singer. All the part are there – and I have the manual. But the feed dogs, as I said, are jammed. It may be a little fix with a bit of oil, they may need replacement. I don’t know.

    My grandma has a early-30′s Singer. Treadle-powered. Solid metal. Gorgeous. Weighs a ton (it is built into a table). Works perfectly. Probably worth a bundle.

  275. 775
    Pteryxx

    Seeing the level of fucking hero worship around Sandusky over this matter I won’t be surprised if there’s some sort of retaliation against the victims for speaking out.

    Katherine: I’d start a betting pool except that it’d be taken seriously instead of as a Poe.

  276. 776
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Oh, Esteleth –

    I’m sorry about that. Family can be difficult (though to be fair, my mom has been incredible to me over the last year and a half and I’ve been the one making things difficult on that front).

    They don’t get it and think that I’m just being mean and unfair, don’t they see that they love and support me and aren’t ashamed?

    Because doing what I tell you to do, for my benefit, no matter how much it impacts your future and how little I know about the deeply personal and profoundly political aspects of your situation and thinking proves that I support you.

    QED.

    Third: My dad has this habit of bringing up stuff that some LGBT person somewhere (usually it is Dan Savage or Barney Franks) said/did that is So! Damn! Terrible! And! Offensive! Don’t I agree?!
    Fourth: I mentioned how it isn’t enough for the atheists and gay people to yell at the Christianists, fundies, and professional anti-gays – the mainstream Christians need to yell at them too, and their failure to do so is why the mainstream non-obviously-hatey Christians are rejected by atheists and LGBT people and allies. Cue BUT BUT BUT THAT’S NOT FAIR.

    Pffft!!

    I love this combo. Meaning I think it’s completely idiotic and I hate it with a burning passion. Every queer must answer for the speech and actions of every other queer, but Christians are totes not accountable for everything another Christian says even when they say it *in the name of Christianity*, because RIGHTS!!!

    :gag:

  277. 777
    Aratina Cage

    Also, I wonder if a SCOTUS refusal to hear an appeal of the PropH8 case decision by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals will have the side effect of making Washington State’s own future PropH8 unconstitutional as well?

  278. 778
    Q.E.D

    RahXephon

    I apologize for being harsh and too quickly looking out for the dogs’ welfare and ignoring potential human welfare issues. I came off as an “entitled asshole” to you but you came off as “guy wants to abandon his special needs dogs because they are destructive” to me.

    You’re right about the fact that I didn’t know your circumstances but you can’t really blame me for that as you did not initially provide them. That said, I did expressly acknowledge that “life sometimes gets difficult” (requiring us to do crappy things we don’t want to do). On TET we often say “context matters”. Now that you have given context, it sounds like you have a challenging situation and I hope it improves for you and you find a good solution for your family’s dogs.

    FWIW I’m very sensitive to this issue (perhaps over sensitive) because I had a roommate who worked as a veterinary assistant at an animal shelter and and an aunt who volunteered for a shelter for most of her life. I have seen enough abandoned dogs and heard enough of their heart wrenching stories for a lifetime (most reasons people give for abandoning their dogs are piss poor). I bond very closely with my dogs (adopted from shelters) and have cared for them through blindness, deafness and heart problems causing horrifying seizures. I have gone without to pay their vet bills.

    From my perspective, your first post came across to me (note these are my perceptions based on the info available) as follows: 1) “my dogs are destructive and have become undesirable” (this is a leading reason dogs are turned over to shelters, it is usually curable, lots of people never bother to make the effort) 2) “Insert Hitler and Pol Pot reference here to make any criticism look unreasonable” and 3) “Not providing the information why I can’t take my dogs with me so context can’t be evaluated.” (obviously there is a difference between: “it’s inconvenient for me” in which case a reasonable reaction is “you’re an arsehole” and “due to dire necessity and circumstances beyond my control” in which case a reasonable reaction is “wow, what a terrible situation, I empathize”).

  279. 779
    Inaji

    Crip Dyke:

    I hope it wins through moderation soon.

    It won’t, it’s gone. You’ll need to re-post, no more than 5 links in one post and use TinyUrl just to make sure they don’t hit the trap.

  280. 780
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Richard Austin:
    *fingers crossed*

    Lynna:
    And now I have another reason to ♥ Clooney and Pitt. :)

    HappiestSadist:
    “Decorative property” is it, exactly.

    Honestly, it’s not something I ever thought about until I became pregnant myself. For the most part, I’m not feeling most of that pressure (except when it is targetted at my size) because I never gave a shit in the first place. But I can’t help but notice it and it pisses me off.

    (DarkFetus too, apparently. The entire time I’ve been typing this, the DF has been going nuts in there.)

  281. 781
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Crip Dyke, the specific aspect of THAT’S NOT FAIR I got about the “Why don’t you, Mr. and Mrs. Mainstream Christians, yell at Tony Perkins and James Dobson?” question was BUT HOW CAN WE? THE MEDIA DOESN’T REPORT IT BECAUSE IT’S NOT SEXY. ALSO, IT IS SO DAMN HARD TO BE MARGINALIZED IN OUR COMMUNITY!

    My point? There it is, sailing somewhere over their heads…

    (not that their complaint about the media isn’t semi valid)

  282. 782
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Pteryxx: Honestly, seeing your postings is one of my favourite things about TET. There’s a lot of folks here whose posts I adore (actually many of the people here, I started naming folks but it ended up being really long), and who are so damn knowledgable and hilarious/wise/kind that I really have come to TET more than pretty much anywhere else online.

    Esteleth: Yikes. With “support” like that… That’s pretty much the most common stuff I’ve seen of straight allies and mainstream Christians, and it never stops being that combination of hurtful and tiring, and eyeroll-inducing that just..ugh. I’m sorry you had to go through it. *fistbump*

  283. 783
    carlie

    You’re right about the fact that I didn’t know your circumstances but you can’t really blame me for that as you did not initially provide them.

    Yes, you can be blamed – you assumed the absolute worst as the default, rather than assuming that there may be factors you weren’t aware of.

  284. 784
    David Marjanović

    I think I should add some background for myself: I, my brother and one of my sisters used to quarrel all the time, in all combinations. Still happens on occasion. So, I’m used to people fighting for hours without interruption, both with and without me, and having to live with each other the next moment, and doing stuff together till the next quarrel erupts. The idea of going away has… never occurred to me, I think.

    cm, interesting. Maybe I’ll post the dissection on TZT.

    Because I don’t think you can separate different kinds of discussions so neatly.

    I think it’s fairly loose, though. Little spats are fine, but once things get really heated and start to go for a dozen or so back and fort posts without getting anywhere, anyone annoyed can ask the participants to take it to the other thread. If they’re invested in the argument they will; if they really didn’t care that much in the first place they can drop it.

    Sounds good to me.

    I have an extremely snarky personality, often times I have to clearly identify that I’m being sarcastic because my words can be taken incorrectly. While people are having the knock down fights among the commentariat here, I can make a little snarky response – perhaps not even related to the argument at all – and have it dragged in, my comment becoming collateral damage and suddenly I’m involved in the argument.

    Ah, that makes sense.

    I keep toying with the idea of a pressure cooker

    Culture shock! Being the only way to cook potatoes or vegetables*, pressure cookers are considered basic household accessories over here. :-)

    * That’s of course not true, but cooking potatoes otherwise, which I did a few times in Paris when I didn’t have a pressure cooker, takes time, and cooking carrots for soup (same situation) takes forever.

    Tupperware Germany has a great tool for making Spätzle. Maybe we can stuff a few into David’s luggage when goes to Rhinebeck.

    Why not! They look like they’re easy to stack! :-)

    For those who are moaning the horror of TET being an actual social lounge, there’s TZT. Fight all you want.

    Well, see above. For some people, being forced to tread lightly around each other doesn’t go together with “lounge” at all; it’s stressful.

    I have, IIRC, repeatedly ignored shouting matches (because their topics weren’t interesting to me) and kept posting about other things on the same subthread.

    That’s nice for you. Why are you assuming it’s this way for everyone else?

    See, that’s such a case of people classifying each other and trying to predict their opinions on certain topics from their opinions on other topics.

    “I have” means “I have”. I was putting it out as at most a suggestion, at least as an explanation of what I do (just for information on, well, neurodiversity). I’m not even sure what you think I was trying to say – perhaps “you should have”?

    Also, I’ll add that it’s pretty impossible to successfully put yourself on ignore when you’re the one targeted.

    Of course. By not mentioning that case (and I read enough to know that you were in that situation, bigtime), I meant not to say anything about that case.

    It’s great that you can ignore stuff like that. Really, it must be very nice for you. However I for one, can’t. I felt extremely uncomfortable with the whole mess of the last few days, even though I wasn’t involved myself.

    Actually… I regret very much that I wasn’t able to participate in that mess. While I’m probably overestimating myself again, I like to imagine that I could have partially defused the situation by applying some SIWOTI syndrome and pointing out where people misunderstood each other, the way Jadehawk tried. Now it’s all too late (…and I still don’t have time… I’m taking a break from looking for transport connections all over half of Spain).

    What I can ignore is, for instance, a few issues that sgbm apparently took extremely seriously, like whether Caine – assuming she even was wrong; I haven’t checked, and maybe I never will – actually lied, as he claimed, or had just misunderstood something.

    I don’t like it when people I respect (let alone like) quarrel over misunderstandings. I can’t ignore that; this just doesn’t manifest in me becoming viscerally uncomfortable.

    “bis der Teig zähflüssig vom Löffel reißt”.

    Much prettier sounding than glop…

    Till the dough rips/tears off the spoon as a thick liquid? Sounds too violent to me. I’d just have written “bis der Teig patzig wird”, but that may not be precise enough. – Glop sounds much funnier. :-)

    And I enjoy the comments of many who haven’t been comfortable with the recent atmosphere. If a change will bring them back here more often, I’m in favour of it.

    I fully agree on that, of course. Indeed, I remember people saying specifically sgbm causing drama drove them away. But… can’t there be a way of bringing these people back without driving people like Jadehawk away!?!

    This snark, on the other hand, is nothing short of bullying

    …as was (I thought obviously) my reply.

    ~:-| “This snark” is your reply. What… have you just admitted to deliberately and consciously bullying? *confused*

    And now my lunch break is gone. :( *hugs*

    *more hugs*
    *happiness tea*

    I can’t wait to make my first TITTZT recommendation.

    :-)

    rainbows, butterflies, puppy breath, marshmallows, cotton candy, Justin Bieber, the wiggles, daffodils, feety pajamas, lollipops, teddy bears, unicorns and cracker jacks.

    Doing my part for the new TET

    Heh.

    /totallyfuckingsarcasmheadexplode

    *carefully picking up the pieces of Pteryxx’s head and gluing them back together*

    You’re still needed, you know. *hug*

  285. 785
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I don’t really know how the spam filtering works. Maybe it will be posted here later?

    but in the meantime, if you’re interested,
    Geddy Lee (as the first bassist I looked up to) ,
    Jaco Pastorius (as just the best I’ve ever known),
    Vicky Aspinall (as the first woman bassist who really impressed me with her musicianship),
    and
    kathi wilcox (as a woman and the first bassist to make me see the mad possibilities of political punk)

    all deeply affected how I see music.

    John Fisher, Paul Simonon, and Greg K were other highly political bassists that I love. John Fisher puts on a wildly awesome live show.

    But then there are just some really, really incredible bassists of different styles – from Bootsy Collins to Cliff Burton to Flea to Stanley Clarke (and 3 or 4 others) – that I think are both technically and musically and creatively awesome.

    I hope the post comes through, but in the meantime, look them up on youtube if you like.

    Aspinall was the head of the Raincoats. kathi wilcox was a member of Bikini Kill. Fisher=Fishbone, Simonon=Clash, K=the Offspring.

    Oh, why am I doing this. Every single one of these bassists is famous enough to find even without reference to the bands in which they participated…

  286. 786
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Esteleth @ #279: The media one is semi-valid but aww, maybe being slightly marginalized yet not actually at any real risk in your community. Point went whoosh indeed.

  287. 787
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Oh! I fucking forgot something.

    There were two queer kids in my high school class (of ~400). Me, and this guy who was super-charismatic, smart, driven, etc, etc.

    He’s dead. Suicide after being thrown out of his home by his homophobic parents.

    There are also nasty comments about how, when he was homeless (because depressed gay 18-year-olds in the midwest have places to go?) he was arrested for solicitation.

    But I’m not allowed to point to him as an example of anti-gay animus, the crap a person’s family can do to them, and why I’m careful about being out in my home town.

    Because he was obviously mentally ill. And I’m not. Therefore, it is an invalid comparison.

    Also, I know better than to turn tricks.

    ARGH.

  288. 788
    RichardAustin

    Aratina Cage:

    Also, I wonder if a SCOTUS refusal to hear an appeal of the PropH8 case decision by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals will have the side effect of making Washington State’s own future PropH8 unconstitutional as well?

    Unfortunately, not likely. A major point in the California case is that California *did* have gay marriage for a while without issue and that CA has everything-but-marriage civil unions, so the state can’t claim any financial or monetary problems from issuing gay marriage licenses. That pretty much limits it to California – and that was explicit in how the opinion was written. Even if SC grants cert, it’s so narrow as to not likely apply outside of California.

    Basically, the only thing Prop 8 did in California was name it something different, and that’s bigotry (as proven by the proponents’ motives) that the state can’t justify. No “rights” at the state level are being granted at all (in legalese, anyway).

  289. 789
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    you came off as “guy wants to abandon his special needs dogs because they are destructive” to me.

    What part of “I’m looking for a home or a rescue/no-kill shelter” implies abandonment? You read a motive into my words that simply wasn’t there.

    That said, I did expressly acknowledge that “life sometimes gets difficult”

    How generous of you.

    Now that you have given context, it sounds like you have a challenging situation and I hope it improves for you and you find a good solution for your family’s dogs.

    I didn’t give context for your sake, and as I said in my original comment about it, I don’t think my personal life and reasons for not keeping a pet are anyone’s business but my own, especially a stranger.

    1) “my dogs are destructive and have become undesirable” (this is a leading reason dogs are turned over to shelters, it is usually curable, lots of people never bother to make the effort)

    I tried various training techniques that were within my financial and physical means for at least two years and, if anything, my dog’s behavior has gotten worse, but it’s nice of you to default to the “if you’re animal’s acting up it’s your fault, you monster” response.

    2) “Insert Hitler and Pol Pot reference here to make any criticism look unreasonable”

    That was what someone else said to me, you ass. If this comment was intended to apologize to me, then why are you reinterating the same entitled crap that pissed me off in the first place?

    3) “Not providing the information why I can’t take my dogs with me so context can’t be evaluated.” (obviously there is a difference between: “it’s inconvenient for me” in which case a reasonable reaction is “you’re an arsehole” and “due to dire necessity and circumstances beyond my control” in which case a reasonable reaction is “wow, what a terrible situation, I empathize”).

    And as I already said, my situation is not yours to judge in the first place, context be damned.

  290. 790
    myeck waters

    Esteleth:

    My grandma has a early-30′s Singer. Treadle-powered. Solid metal. Gorgeous. Weighs a ton (it is built into a table). Works perfectly. Probably worth a bundle.

    OMG, call her local SCA! If I could figure out how to make it look 12th Century Mongolian I’d buy it for my wife’s sister.

    Now a 1970′s Singer is a different story. A few years ago I took a class in working on unfamiliar machines, and the instructor was making a point that (if you work in a store) you should never badmouth a brand you don’t sell because it makes you look petty. So he was going down a row of machines finding something good to say about each one. Then he got to a 1970′s Singer. Pause. “I love this machine…I bought my first house with the money I made fixing these…”

  291. 791
    Louis

    Audley,

    If the recent photo of BEWBZ you showed us was you totally, like, some random person on the internets and not totally, like, some random person on the internets you, then you are fine. I realise your sister is giving you ear ache about your size but guess what? Fuck her. Fuck her directly in the ear with a gigantic polyurethane banana. Twice. And a third time on public holidays.

    You need to be calmer than a Hindu cow, so get Mr Darkheart to Sort His Shit Out™, fetch you some lobster and gherkin ice cream, or whatever, and give you a foot rub (substitute things you might actually like). This is part of our Duty™ as Spouses of Teh Preggers Ladies. He might as well get used to it. If you have to tell him it’s redeemable for a Swallow Blow Job (the currency of any good relationship, even if never delivered) a year or so down the line (he’ll forget, trust me), then it’s all good.

    ;-)

    Louis

    P.S. If this duplicates, I don’t know why but FtB has been saying it publishes some comments and then….erm….doesn’t

  292. 792
    Lynna, OM

    Related to post #251 by Richard Austin, here’s coverage from Reuters:

    The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals cleared the way on Tuesday for the Supreme Court to consider California’s gay marriage ban, declining an appeal to revisit the case.

    Supporters of the 2008 ban, Proposition 8, have lost two rounds in federal court but have made clear they will appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court and hope for a favorable response from the conservative-leaning court.

    The top U.S. court could agree to hear the matter in the session beginning in October, putting it on track to decide the case within a year. It could also decline to review Prop 8….

  293. 793
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Esteleth –

    BUT HOW CAN WE?

    Because, the post office, it doesn’t exist anymore, does it?

    and if we wanted to speak publicly, that’s only possible for really famous people who can get on TV, isn’t it? There’s no technology other than TV for communicating to many people at once, is there?

    My point? There it is, sailing somewhere over their heads…

    Sigh. Indeed.

    Not that they’re worse, it sounds, than most other straight people over, say 45. But that being no-better-and-no-worse than your contemporaries

    Does. Not. Get. You. A. Cookie.

  294. 794
    Inaji

    Quod:

    You’re right about the fact that I didn’t know your circumstances but you can’t really blame me for that as you did not initially provide them.

    Nope. You are to blame. You could have simply asked RahXephon what the circumstances happened to be. Instead, you went full court asshole, making him feel even worse about what is already a bad, guilt-filled situation for him. If you’re going to apologize, simply apologize. Don’t go justifying your behaviour.

    By the way, this isn’t the first time RahXephon brought up this situation.

  295. 795
    Nutmeg

    Esteleth: Ugh. It must be so frustrating to deal with parents who don’t get that equal rights are not something to be discussed and voted on. And to have the faith aspect on top of that.

    My parents are better-behaved, considering their generation, but sometimes I still want to hit them with a clue-by-four. (I love the phrase clue-by-four, BTW.) I’m not out to them yet, but my older brother’s been out for about 15 years. They’re okay with him being gay, but they still make comments (not to his face) about how they’re glad he isn’t effeminate. Someday soon, I’ll probably snap and give them a lecture on how people’s gender expression is none of their damn business.

  296. 796
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Supporters of the 2008 ban, Proposition 8, have lost two rounds in federal court

    Technically, if I understand the procedural posture of the case correctly, they’ve lost 3 rounds – four if you consider the refusal to consider the case en banc to be a loss, though they always wanted to appeal to SCOTUS and they may not have been actually interested in an en banc hearing as much as just establishing the procedural posture necessary to apply for cert.

  297. 797
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I know, Crip Dyke. I don’t expect them to be marching on Washington, or headlining on CNN. They’re 50-something straight people living in a small town in the rural Midwest.
    I do, however, expect them to call Mr. Neighbor and Mrs. Co-worker on being a homophobic ass. They CAN do that.
    I also expect them to listen to me, their daughter when I say, “X hurts.”

  298. 798
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Ogvorbis, Pteryxx, Onion Girl, Erulora – glad to see you all back.

    Audley:

    It’s almost like there’s a super femininity that goes along with being pregnant.

    Right. “The Glow™.” How dare you not be glowing 24/7.

    You might be in pain, fighting depression, fatigued, nauseous, whatever but you absolutely can’t cut yourself some slack!

    Reminds me of Barbara Ehrenreich’s “Welcome to Cancerland.”

    Caine, I’m fine with woo in fantasy, whether it’s spirits, deities, or magic.

    I took a sewing class in junior high and did okay, if not great, in it. I now have an old sewing machine (the kind built into a table) in my living room and have had it there for several years, but I have no idea how to use it. I don’t know if any of my local friends would know how to teach me, either. :-/

    KristinC:

    she “didn’t want to have a conversation using technology”

    That’s where I first rolled my eyes. The rest of your comment doesn’t speak well of your sister, either.

    Opposable Thumbs, I’ve also dealt with such people. Everything about the relationship has to be on their terms. No, thanks.

    Ibyea, I think that trying to avoid your brother is a perfectly rational response.

    Giliell, people who overindulge their pets are as annoying as people who overindulge their children, and as detrimental to their wards.

    David:

    I’m never looking for a fight. Literally never. But I have a really hard time imagining that enforcing neurotypical style-over-content crap could possibly be a good idea.

    Oh, for pete’s sake. There’s a difference between a tone argument and the demand not to be relentlessly abused. And not everybody who was triggered or driven out by SGBM’s crap is neurotypical.

    Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    “Sticks and stones” is a bullshit argument.

    RahXephon:

    Sometimes life is too complicated for the crowd who loves to just yell “YOU’RE THEIR FOREVER HOME!!11!1!1″ at you.

    No shit, eh?

    I’ve also seen such types argue that if one has to remortgage one’s home at high interest in order to afford medical care for a very sick animal, one should do that. And that losing one’s home to the bank or being evicted is “no excuse” for giving away an animal.

    Have you noticed that there are people who have this attitude that people belonging to Marginalized Groups cannot comment on legislation or issues pertaining to those Marginalized Groups as if they have some conflict of interest?

    Some white straight d00d once told Pam Spaulding that any articles she writes for general political websites or mainstream news sources should mention her race and orientation as a “disclaimer.” It was to lol.

    Ing, fuck your boss.

    Audley:

    When you do leave, is there any way you can scan &/or photocopy your butt and send the resulting pics to management/HR?

    AHAHAHAHAHA…. I like the way you think. I also recommend mandrellian’s suggestion.

    Esteleth:

    I got in a fight with my parents about the whole lesbian thing. UGH.

    {hugs}

    Richard Austin: Great news re Prop H8.

    Kitty:

    Seeing the level of fucking hero worship around Sandusky over this matter I won’t be surprised if there’s some sort of retaliation against the victims for speaking out.

    Agreed.

    Carlie:

    Yes, you can be blamed – you assumed the absolute worst as the default, rather than assuming that there may be factors you weren’t aware of.

    This.

    On a side note, if you’re GLBTQI, do not participate in any surveys by Sophie Miriam Herold. More details here. Serious trigger warnings for homo/transphobia.

  299. 799
    David Marjanović

    Still happens on occasion.

    I wanted to add that we’re now all at least 25 years old. Growing up helps, but it doesn’t completely solve the problem, especially not given our (very different) personalities.

    You’re right about the fact that I didn’t know your circumstances but you can’t really blame me for that as you did not initially provide them.

    :-o

    Did you just admit that your default assumption is that everyone is evil and dangerous until proven harmless?

    I hope it wins through moderation soon.

    It won’t, it’s gone.

    PZ does let comments through moderation when he happens to have time… which isn’t often. So, yes, treat it as gone and try again.

  300. 800
    rorschach

    New Rules, following up on this hammerage.

    Ok thanks. Rules acknowledged.

  301. 801
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    I don’t really know how the spam filtering works. Maybe it will be posted here later?

    It works like this:
    Too many links or certain keywords means it goes to PZ for moderation, where “moderation” means “it’s gone forever because PZ can’t wade through all of it and still get stuff done.”

  302. 802
    RichardAustin

    Lynna:

    Related to post #251 by Richard Austin, here’s coverage from Reuters…

    I cheated. I’m on the email list for decisions/updates on the case from the court :)

    (Yes, I’m a legal geek. And a space geek. And a Lego geek. And a gamer. And a math geek. And a photog. And…)

    (I need fewer hobbies, or more free time.)

  303. 803
    Aratina Cage

    On the spam filter here, it might also auto-delete comments with certain “size enhancing” keywords. I was parodying such spam on Butterflies and Wheels two or three days ago and Ophelia couldn’t even find it in the spam folder when she went to check.

  304. 804
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    myeck,
    The 30′s Singer is in a cabin in Maine. Like, rural, dirt-roads Maine.

    Incidentally, we’re trying to rent that cabin out…

    Is that to say that spare parts for a 70′s Singer would be useful to you? I don’t even need money for it. I just want it to stop talking up space in my closet.

  305. 805
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Um.

    I see that the “Real Scientists” thread is hopping. How many spoons do I need to read that? How bad are the trolls (I’m guessing that’s the problem)?

  306. 806
    RichardAustin

    Crip Dyke:

    Technically, if I understand the procedural posture of the case correctly, they’ve lost 3 rounds – four if you consider the refusal to consider the case en banc to be a loss, though they always wanted to appeal to SCOTUS and they may not have been actually interested in an en banc hearing as much as just establishing the procedural posture necessary to apply for cert.

    Well, they lost the initial hearing and the first appeal. This was the second appeal and was denied. (I’m not sure what the fourth would have been).

    Technically, they could have appealed to the SC immediately after losing the first appeal. I’m pretty sure they asked for the en banc from the 9th in the hopes that the close ruling would be overturned, but that didn’t happen. That would have set them up better for the SC, but since the ruling held, it’s even less likely to be overturned by the SC (again, given the extremely narrow ruling/effects).

  307. 807
    Q.E.D

    Carlie @281

    Yes, you can be blamed – you assumed the absolute worst as the default, rather than assuming that there may be factors you weren’t aware of.

    what part of the first sentence in my apology

    I apologize for being harsh and too quickly looking out for the dogs’ welfare and ignoring potential human welfare issues

    did you not read?

    I saw the reactions to my first comment, examined my initial reaction, saw there was some merit in the criticism, went back in to apologise and explain why I reacted harshly. I would have thought that was what we are supposed to do here, particularly in the nicer fluffier TET.

    Tell you what, you design a sufficiently humbling Mea Culpa for me that will satisfy your high standards. meanwhile, I am going to assemble a cot with instructions in Swedish while drinking several glasses of wine. I may be a while.

  308. 808
    Aratina Cage

    @Richard Austin
    So the finding against PropH8 might have applied to Washington State if Washingtonians were able to have a brief period where same-sex couples were marrying before that right was yanked away with a referendum? *sigh* On the other hand, Washington State has probably the best chance of actually rejecting an anti-gay mawwiage amendment via popular vote I would think, but it would have been fun to see a ruling against PropH8 take down another bigoted mess at the same time.

  309. 809
    David Marjanović
    I’m never looking for a fight. Literally never. But I have a really hard time imagining that enforcing neurotypical style-over-content crap could possibly be a good idea.

    Oh, for pete’s sake. There’s a difference between a tone argument and the demand not to be relentlessly abused. And not everybody who was triggered or driven out by SGBM’s crap is neurotypical.

    I’m responding to how PZ made it sound, to how I fear he will enforce it, and to how Jadehawk thinks PZ made it sound.

    Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    “Sticks and stones” is a bullshit argument.

    And it’s not an argument I made. “Sticks and stones” is about people hurtling sticks, stones or words at you, not at some third party. That’s why I used the phrase “collateral damage”.

    I’ve also seen such types argue that if one has to remortgage one’s home at high interest in order to afford medical care for a very sick animal, one should do that. And that losing one’s home to the bank or being evicted is “no excuse” for giving away an animal.

    *facepalm*

    *headshake*

  310. 810
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Louis:
    You always know what to say to make me smile. Thanks, man. :)

  311. 811
    Pteryxx

    Re pet blaming…

    Nope. You are to blame. You could have simply asked RahXephon what the circumstances happened to be.

    I have antennae up for pet abandonment, too. If I’d read RahXephon’s comment as implying lack of due consideration, I would have responded with something like: “You’d better not be complaining about your pets just being hard to handle, because there are fixes for that.” A challenge and demand for explanation, rather than assuming.

    David M:

    Did you just admit that your default assumption is that everyone is evil and dangerous until proven harmless?

    No; the default assumption was that people who get rid of pets are callous and thoughtless unless proven otherwise. Which is also wrong, but not far wrong considering how many horrible pet owners there are.

    Mattir said above:

    Re rehoming/euthanizing animals – it’s never easy for people who talk about it. The people for whom it’s easy to dump or euthanize pets do not show up on internet forums talking about it – it doesn’t even enter their mind that it might be an ethical or emotional problem.

    This is a really good heuristic. I’m adopting it immediately.

  312. 812
    David Marjanović

    I saw the reactions to my first comment, examined my initial reaction, saw there was some merit in the criticism, went back in to apologise and explain why I reacted harshly.

    That explanation is just so baffling…

  313. 813
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Okay.

    Because I need to cheer myself up.

    One of the funniest videos I’ve seen lately

    I’ve been trying to find a clip of the god-beatdown scene from Avengers. Anyone else seen that?

    I AM A GOD! WORSHIP ME!
    *bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam*
    “Puny god.”

  314. 814
    RichardAustin

    Aratina Cage:

    If both your statement (period where it was allowed) and Washington State had, in lieu of same-sex marriage, a civil union that is everything-but-marriage, yes, it might apply. The second is, IIRC, more important than the first (though the first was a factor in the “it’s been done here before, it can be done again without hardship” way).

  315. 815
    carlie

    I saw the reactions to my first comment, examined my initial reaction, saw there was some merit in the criticism, went back in to apologise and explain why I reacted harshly

    But your explanation was still to blame RahXephon for not giving you enough information. That’s still a not-pology. Saying “you can’t really blame me for that as you did not initially provide them” negates any apology you offered.

  316. 816
    myeck waters

    Esteleth, sorry about any confusion there. No, the 1970′s Singer is basically considered junk.
    I do wish I knew someone in Maine though, I bet some SCAdians would drool at the idea of owning that old one.

  317. 817
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    Re roses not doing well in various soils. I wonder if they like it somewhat sandy, rather than somewhat acidic? We could grow test plots… or just ask an agricultural department. You-all are making me want to get a rose bush, preferably a fragrant climber.

    I enjoy bookcrossing. It has its own fora and conventions and friendships. Bookish Pharyngulites would probably love it.

  318. 818
    RichardAustin

    Esteleth:

    Tada!

  319. 819
    Aratina Cage

    @Richard Austin
    I thought Washington State did have EBM in the form of domestic partnerships? *checking Wikipedia* Yes, they do (since 2007), and those survived an anti-gay referendum vote in 2009.

  320. 820
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    What carlie said in 313. That apology boils down to “I’m sorry. But really, it’s your fault not mine.”

  321. 821
    Pteryxx

    David M again:

    And it’s not an argument I made. “Sticks and stones” is about people hurtling sticks, stones or words at you, not at some third party. That’s why I used the phrase “collateral damage”.

    But you specified “unlike meatspace”.

    Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    That was conflating damage to a third party with nonphysical damage. They’re separate issues; but words absolutely can do both collateral and nonphysical damage, see again stereotype threat etc.

  322. 822
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Richard Austin:

    Even if SC grants cert, it’s so narrow as to not likely apply outside of California.

    Actually, the situation in Hawaii was very similar to the one in California, though it preceded it by a decade and a bit, except (and this is an important except) they didn’t “have” queer marriages in the sense of having anyone allowed to be married.

    But marriage was established as right, then taken away. It’s likely that the fact that people actually got married under California law is important, but it may not be dispositive.

    The reason I’m challenging you is not so much that you’re wrong on the facts – you’re right. There are circumstances unique to CA that were included in the analysis and thus the case

    **could be construed**

    as having no precedential value elsewhere. But, and here’s the big but, the times, they are a-changing, and the 9th circuit will be embolded by a denial of cert to keep pushing the envelope until SCOTUS finally takes a case and sets limits.

    But SCOTUS is more likely to either take this case now or wait until ballot initiatives supporting queer marriage start passing with statewide electorates and then declare marriage a “right” after the fight is already de-facto over.

    That’s what they did with interracial marriage. It could easily be what they do with queer marriage. And denial of cert would definitely be an indication that the court intends to take that path. Part of what circuit courts of appeal do is allow the progressive courts to slowly push the boundaries while the conservative courts get to lag behind until a practice is just too widespread for the problems entailed in crossing state lines to be ignored.

    California’s SC first ruled that anti-miscegenation laws were unconstitutional (according to the state constitution, though, since Pace v. Alabama ruled federally) in the late 40s (47 I think). Loving didn’t come for 20 years. So depending on whether you count Hawaii’s decision (which was overturned) in 1994 or Massachusetts (as the first court to have their decision stand) in 2003, we should see something more permanent and widespread in 2014-2023…ish.

    I’d be surprised if we get SCOTUS taking Perry and upholding it as a broad precedent in 2013 or 2014. Really surprised. But it could happen.

    No. I take it back. F*n Kelo v. New London probably tells us a lot here, though it seems to be on a totally different point of law. The bizarre mix of legal realism and orignalist positivism we see in the SC’s main and extreme-right block seems pretty hostile to creating any fundamental right to marry…

    It’s just that damn Kennedy. It’s hard to say how he’ll rule. I think that there’s no way he’ll set a broad precedent, but he could surprise us. I don’t think so at all, but, hey, my ancestors fled the dromeosaurs that I know watch recreated on a computer for my edutainment, y’know?

    Anyway, I think a very narrow precedent or declining cert is most likely the outcome.

    But – and this is important – even if they take the case and decide it narrowly, they won’t necessarily write the opinion in such a way as to rule out it’s use as precedent. That kind of hypocritical crap is generally reserved only for death penalty cases and Bush v Gore.

  323. 823
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    That’s fine, myeck. I figured I’d offer it.

    I may just find a place to dump it locally. I may ask the local JoAnn’s if they want it for parts.

  324. 824
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @ Esteleth:

    That was the funniest violence I have ever seen outside of Loony Tunes.

  325. 825
    Walton

    (Yes, I’m a legal geek. And a space geek. And a Lego geek. And a gamer. And a math geek. And a photog. And…)

    (I need fewer hobbies, or more free time.)

    I, on the other hand, currently need more hobbies and less free time. (Or, preferably, a summer job.)

  326. 826
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The movie was pretty good. I could definitely tell that it was a Whedon. Also, “Doth thy mother know thou wearest her drapes?”

    :D :D :D

  327. 827
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Esteleth:

    and the funniest misheard lyrics, like, evah!

  328. 828
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Just showed the O Forunta video to a co-worker. She said, “Is that actually what the lyrics are?”

    Incidentally, I looked it up. Apparently, the poem is like 900 years old and is a college student complaining that he’s broke, got the clap, and his girlfriend just dumped him.

    Some things never change, eh?

  329. 829
    Walton

    Crip Dyke:

    It’s just that damn Kennedy. It’s hard to say how he’ll rule. I think that there’s no way he’ll set a broad precedent, but he could surprise us.

    I’m inclined to be optimistic in that regard, since it seemed to me that the Ninth Circuit opinion in Perry followed Kennedy’s reasoning in Romer very closely. I wrote a little about it on my blog at the time, though I’m really only a dilettante when it comes to American constitutional law. (I did take a single con law class during my LLM in the States, but not in this field.)

    (For anyone who wants to be really depressed, try reading Scalia’s dissent in Romer. It’s probably the nastiest homophobic screed I’ve ever seen in a judicial opinion.)

  330. 830
    Pteryxx

    Oh, and a meta-level explanation, to David M. and whoever else:

    I’ve got a sort of argument timer heuristic for this sort of situation. I’ve just corrected David M’s statements twice in a row, in rapid succession. That means I’ve imbalanced the usual ratio of back and forth; now I’m going to wait for him to make the next move in this discussion. If he doesn’t respond to me directly, I’ll leave it be unless another point comes up that I think is important enough to override my argument timer.

    This has been Helpful Aspie-lite Rules of Thumb for Social Spaces.

  331. 831
    RichardAustin

    Aratina Cage:

    You could be right; I’m not familiar with Washington State law. But the “taking away a right [rather than granting one] for no reason other than discrimination” was pretty much the point of the opinion in Perry, so that’s a pretty big portion of it.

    Crip Dyke:

    But marriage was established as right, then taken away. It’s likely that the fact that people actually got married under California law is important, but it may not be dispositive.

    Well, there have been arguments in other cases that the effort necessary to pave the way for same-sex marriage constitutes a significant financial burden on the part of the state, and that this could be a rational basis for denying same-sex marriage. The fact that California actually offered same-sex marriages for a period of time (and thus did all the legwork to do so) negates that completely. That’s where the “actually issued” came up, but the main focus was on “taking away an existing right”.

    But SCOTUS is more likely to either take this case now or wait until ballot initiatives supporting queer marriage start passing with statewide electorates and then declare marriage a “right” after the fight is already de-facto over.

    I’m hoping they decline cert. Not only faster but probably better in the long run (though having this case – and these findings of fact – be used at the SC level would be awesome).

  332. 832
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Richard Austin:

    I thought that the defenders of prop 8 asked from reconsideration from Judge Walker, which would be the 2nd loss, then the 3rd with the 9th circuit panel, then this decision not to hear the case en banc.

    Am I wrong about the request for reconsideration?

    Also, while you can, of course, apply for cert from a panel decision, I thought the Supremes were even less likely to take it without the request for en banc.

    It’s hard to know, of course, but the persuasive value of a precedent outside the 9th is strengthened if its a ruling by the full court. Thus I felt that they strengthened their case for cert by applying for en banc. It’s interesting that you seem to imply the opposite here:

    since the ruling held, it’s even less likely to be overturned by the SC (again, given the extremely narrow ruling/effects).

    I’m not saying you’re wrong. The narrowness does make it less likely to be overturned, but an identical ruling by the full court would have been more likely to be granted cert,

    I really don’t see what the Supremes get out of taking this case. So many folk are expecting it to go up, but I’m not at all sure it will.

  333. 833
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    They actually might deny cert. As much as Scalia (et al) would LOVE to issue a “Gays are nasty and gross” ruling, he also can read the writing on the wall. If cert is denied, then same-sex marriage nationwide is delayed a few more years.

  334. 834
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    But it all comes down to Kennedy in any case.

  335. 835
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I’m hoping they decline cert. Not only faster but probably better in the long run (though having this case – and these findings of fact – be used at the SC level would be awesome).

    yes. me, too. It’s not only hard to see what the Supremes get out of this, but it’s also hard to see what we as a queer community could reasonably win from a decision on a case arriving with this posture.

    Not taking it would allow the 9th and other circuits to slowly push the envelope on factors that limit the ability of states to “take away” the right to marry.

    For instance, did the right exist in Hawaii if the ability to exercise that right was enjoined til after the election…which overturned the ruling with a constitutional amendment?

    Does the right exist in places like WA where EBM exists and there’s no rational basis for calling it something different?

    These are areas that courts can push absent limiting instructions from the Supremes. Although I’d rather have the right upheld now, I don’t think it is going to happen, and therefore I’d rather see cert denied.

  336. 836
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @ Walton:

    I said a broad precedent. I think he’ll rule for Perry, but i don’t think he’ll take the opportunity to create a broad precedent that makes it difficult or impossible for any state to deny marriage licenses to queer couples.

  337. 837
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The issue is that there are 3 or 4 Supremes who are hard-line homophobes who will vote against anything granting LGBT people rights above dogs.
    There are also 4 or 5 Supremes who are willing to be persuaded that LGBT people deserve head-pats and an end to overt bigotry.

    See what’s missing?

    We don’t have any allies on the Court.

  338. 838
    RichardAustin

    Crip Dyke:

    I thought that the defenders of prop 8 asked from reconsideration from Judge Walker, which would be the 2nd loss, then the 3rd with the 9th circuit panel, then this decision not to hear the case en banc.

    Am I wrong about the request for reconsideration?

    I don’t remember that, but it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. So, you’re probably right.

    For instance, did the right exist in Hawaii if the ability to exercise that right was enjoined til after the election…which overturned the ruling with a constitutional amendment?

    Does the right exist in places like WA where EBM exists and there’s no rational basis for calling it something different?

    I’d say “likely yes” in the first case and “likely no” in the second (there are potential rational – in the legal sense – reasons for denying same-sex marriage but keeping EBM civil unions; I don’t think rational scrutiny is sufficient and that it should be judged under higher scrutiny – hell, I’d love sexual orientation to be a suspect class -, but that doesn’t mean the courts feel the same way).

  339. 839
    Aratina Cage

    Plus, if cert is denied at SCOTUS, then a huge proportion of the United States population will have stateside marriage equality–again. Getting marriage back in California only is not the most just outcome (marriage equality nationwide is), but it’s still a good outcome.

  340. 840
    Weed(less) Monkey

    My sewing machine is a late 50s – early 60s Husqvarna. I got it about ten years ago for something like 10 € at an auction where a closed schools stuff was sold. It weighs like it’s solid steel and it’s built into a table, but it simply works (after I cleaned and oiled it a bit) – even with heavy fabrics or leather. And parts like presser feet for it are still sold at Husqvarna shops. What’s not to love?

    Not that I use it for much more than patching up worn clothes.

  341. 841
    RichardAustin

    Aratina:

    California also doesn’t have residency requirements, so it means more pushing on the “full faith and credit” clause. In addition to, what is it, 15% of the population of the country now?

  342. 842
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    the default assumption was that people who get rid of pets are callous and thoughtless unless proven otherwise. Which is also wrong, but not far wrong considering how many horrible pet owners there are.

    I gotta second Pteryxx here. I’m explicitly not condemning RahXephon or defending qed, just offering that angle. It’s really, really easy to get cynical and misanthropic when you’ve been involved with a lot of abandoned pets. And I think it’s also easy not to realize that, if the majority of your exposure is to decent people rehoming pets for understandable reasons.

    I just seriously have seen and heard of so many animals really traumatized because they’ve been dumped and I’ve talked to so many callous, thoughtless people (and they don’t have horns, you know, people can seem intelligent and compassionate and then go and try to justify something fucking ridiculous and revolting concerning animals) that the ability to extend the benefit of the doubt has been all but snuffed out with me, kind of in the way that I don’t have the energy to extend the benefit of the doubt when someone comes on a thread and says something that trips creationist-troll flags, kwim?I’m not claiming this is right, just that there are reasons behind it.

    It doesn’t help that although yeah, there’s orgs who specialize in helping special needs behavior-problem pets, and there’s no-kill shelters, those places are s w a m p e d. Especially in high-foreclosure and high-unemployment times. Although looking for one is laudable, to be completely blunt, it’s not very realistic. There just aren’t huge lines of people stepping up to take hard-to-place animals, but there are huge lines of people trying to rehome those animals. Them’s just the facts.

    RahXephon, it sounds like an awful situation to be in, and I really hope you do find something that works out well for everybody. I would gently suggest that shelters and rehoming can be so traumatic for elderly animals that in the worst case scenario, a more compassionate choice might be to have the older dog euthanized while it’s still with you and feeling safe and secure.

  343. 843
    David Marjanović
    Unlike in meatspace, none of the fists being flung can actually hit you; you can’t become collateral damage.

    That was conflating damage to a third party with nonphysical damage.

    No, that was using physical damage as a metaphor for nonphysical damage. Sorry for not making that clearer.

    If you literally sit in the center of a boxing ring, you can of course become collateral damage…

    However, you’re right about stereotype threat and the like.

    I, on the other hand, currently need more hobbies

    ~:-| Please explain.

    I’ve got a sort of argument timer heuristic for this sort of situation. I’ve just corrected David M’s statements twice in a row, in rapid succession. That means I’ve imbalanced the usual ratio of back and forth; now I’m going to wait for him to make the next move in this discussion. If he doesn’t respond to me directly, I’ll leave it be unless another point comes up that I think is important enough to override my argument timer.

    Uh… but… I’m not even in your time zone, so I don’t expect our conversations to be in real time anyway. :-| Please do feel free to say everything you want to say; we’re not in meatspace, there’s no danger that you could talk over me and not let me get a word in.

    That’s also why I write a few long comments instead of many short ones.

  344. 844
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Although looking for one is laudable, to be completely blunt, it’s not very realistic.

    And again I have to ask, where the fuck do people get off treating me as if I’m irresponsible and have never thought about these things, like I float through life in some Pollyanna-ish fog.

    It’s fucking guaranteed that I have spent far, far more time thinking about this situation and my life in general than anyone here has, and I’m seriously fucking unappreciative of the speculation about how stupid and/or callous and/or naive I am, thanks very much.

  345. 845
    David Marjanović

    “Internet
    Please let me sleep. I like sleep.”
    http://9gag.com/gag/4384451

  346. 846
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    And by the way, my comment applies to the entire clusterfucking conversation that’s happened since I made my comment, kristinc, not just to you.

  347. 847
    David Marjanović

    And again I have to ask, where the fuck do people get off treating me as if I’m irresponsible and have never thought about these things, like I float through life in some Pollyanna-ish fog.

    They’re trying to classify you as “someone who wants to give pets away”. I don’t doubt that comment 342 is right.

  348. 848
    Pteryxx

    David M: by “argument timer” I didn’t mean literally time-that-passes… bad choice of words on my part. I’m not sure what a better metaphor would be though… ratchet? mainspring? It’s how I make a crude judgment whether I’ve “gone too far” in arguing: three steps with low, medium, and high tension thus danger of offending. My kinetic perception of it’s like feeling the tension in a compressed, coiled spring; and that’s the sort of sense I use to navigate social interactions, instead of doing it directly with Socialey-Sense or however neurotypical folks manage it.

  349. 849
    Irène Delse, on dry land among seabirds

    @ David #345:

    I think I’m in love of this meme ;-)

  350. 850
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    Pteryxx,

    So you’re talking more of a turn-based system than real-time system.

  351. 851
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Disney bans junk-food advertising on programs for kids

    (FOX News version of the above article: Obama Wages War on American Food and Drink Corporations)

    In a response to Michelle Obama’s focus on the childhood obesity problem, Disney Channel programming no longer will display ads from junk food companies.

    That’s pretty impressive.

  352. 852
    Pteryxx

    Erulora: (heh) I guess, but the “timer” also leaks… if the argument lies fallow for a while in real time, the tension leaks out. Mostly. Some topics (and some individuals) have much higher tension coefficients than others.

    Seriously, it’s like a mental old-fashioned clock that’s wound up with a key. I’d better have a darned important argument to make to risk winding it up that last step and risk breaking everything.

    (meta) See, now I’ve explained this metaphor three times, so I judge high risk of making it “all about me”. I judged it worth talking about in case it’s useful in the general discussion of how to argue politely vs when to let a point go; some people here seem to think I’m polite, so it must be working more or less.

  353. 853
    David Marjanović

    “New small solid oxide fuel cell reaches record efficiency”

    “Lab tests showed the system’s net efficiency ranged from 48.2 percent at 2.2 kW to a high of 56.6 percent at 1.7 kW. The team calculates they could raise the system’s efficiency to 60 percent with a few more adjustments.”

  354. 854
    David Marjanović

    David M: by “argument timer” I didn’t mean literally time-that-passes… bad choice of words on my part. I’m not sure what a better metaphor would be though… ratchet? mainspring?

    I got that. Again, there’s no danger of you doing a Gish gallop on me (or vice versa).

    In meatspace, that’s very different. Therefore I make so sure that everyone is done speaking before I speak up that I often have trouble getting a word in. Often I’m one of 3 or 4 people at a table and end up practically ignored.

  355. 855
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Also, *sigh* – Senate GOP kills Paycheck Fairness Act.

    What war on women?

  356. 856
    Pteryxx

    David M: Thanks. I probably won’t alter my heuristic (*notes David M as ‘low-tension’) but I appreciate the reassurance.

  357. 857
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Many thanks to whoever first mentioned Diablo Swing Orchestra. Metal is pretty unfamiliar to me, but it seems that every now and then I get introduced to some interesting subgenre I had no idea existed or a good band.

    Now I’m wondering where that cd with the whole discography of Blind Guardian is. I got it during my uni days and it worked for a while as my study music for certain subjects.

  358. 858
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    there are potential rational – in the legal sense – reasons for denying same-sex marriage but keeping EBM civil unions; I don’t think rational scrutiny is sufficient and that it should be judged under higher scrutiny –

    well, sure, but there’s rational basis and then there’s rational basis a la Reed v. Reed and Romer v. Evans, etc. Some have called it “Rational Basis with teeth”. In Reed v. Reed, it’s widely considered a quasi-suspect class reasoning and ruling despite using the language of rational basis. Romer seems to be something less than quasi-suspect class reasoning but more than rational basis.

    hell, I’d love sexual orientation to be a suspect class -, but that doesn’t mean the courts feel the same way

    Lower case “suspect class” or upper case “Suspect CLass”? If you mean the legal concept, no way. It may reach quasi-suspect class status, but there’s no way that sexual orientation becomes a suspect classification.

    (also classification is much more relevant here than class – class analysis has almost entirely given way to classification analysis now)

  359. 859
    Forelle

    David Marjanović:

    I’ll . . . book the trip to Spain and back.

    I’m taking a break from looking for transport connections all over half of Spain.

    What? I’m in Spain. If there’s any chance, however remote, that I can be of use, please tell — I’d be more than delighted to help. I’m a lurker who’s felt indebted to you for years. I’ll try to check back this thread later, but just in case, I can be found at infrohereil at yahoo dot com.

  360. 860
    David Marjanović

    What? I’m in Spain. If there’s any chance, however remote, that I can be of use, please tell — I’d be more than delighted to help. I’m a lurker who’s felt indebted to you for years. I’ll try to check back this thread later, but just in case, I can be found at infrohereil at yahoo dot com.

    Oh! Great! I’ve still only booked the flight to Barcelona, because everything else is complicated. That’s on June 19th. I should go to Teruel the same day and end up in Berlin not too late on the 24th. I’ll e-mail you in about an hour.

    Incidentally, the Renfe website doesn’t work in any browser my family has — clicking on “buscar” doesn’t do anything. I’ve had to use mostly the French website (sncf.fr).

  361. 861
    Inaji

    Waiting on my meds. We’re bringing home two new boys (yeah, I know, we’re such suckers), Havelock & Sam. Havelock is black and white, Sam is brown, similar to Esme. They’re somewhere around 5-6 months old. Pics as soon as possible.

  362. 862
    David Marjanović

    I’m a lurker who’s felt indebted to you for years.

    I didn’t even see that at first :-}

  363. 863
    David Marjanović

    We’re bringing home two new boys (yeah, I know, we’re such suckers), Havelock & Sam.

    :-) :-) :-)

  364. 864
    Pteryxx

    We’re bringing home two new boys (yeah, I know, we’re such suckers), Havelock & Sam…

    *sings* That’s the cir-cllllle, the circle of liiiiiife…

    *flees*

  365. 865
    ChasCPeterson

    have you just admitted to deliberately and consciously bullying?

    naw, man. Deliberately and consciously joking.
    Not bullying.
    Shall I explain the humor?

    nah.

  366. 866
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Yay, new ratties!!

  367. 867
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    *sings* That’s the cir-cllllle, the circle of liiiiiife…

    :D No need to flee.

    Daisy, yes, Yay! They’re going to be more than a tad freaked, they’ve had to hang out in a transport box while we finished shopping, now we’re on the way home. Should be there in about 45 minutes or so.

  368. 868
    Q.E.D

    KristinC @342

    I gotta second Pteryxx here. I’m explicitly not condemning RahXephon or defending qed, just offering that angle. It’s really, really easy to get cynical and misanthropic when you’ve been involved with a lot of abandoned pets. And I think it’s also easy not to realize that, if the majority of your exposure is to decent people rehoming pets for understandable reasons.

    I just seriously have seen and heard of so many animals really traumatized because they’ve been dumped and I’ve talked to so many callous, thoughtless people (and they don’t have horns, you know, people can seem intelligent and compassionate and then go and try to justify something fucking ridiculous and revolting concerning animals) that the ability to extend the benefit of the doubt has been all but snuffed out with me, kind of in the way that I don’t have the energy to extend the benefit of the doubt when someone comes on a thread and says something that trips creationist-troll flags, kwim?I’m not claiming this is right, just that there are reasons behind it.

    It doesn’t help that although yeah, there’s orgs who specialize in helping special needs behavior-problem pets, and there’s no-kill shelters, those places are s w a m p e d. Especially in high-foreclosure and high-unemployment times. Although looking for one is laudable, to be completely blunt, it’s not very realistic. There just aren’t huge lines of people stepping up to take hard-to-place animals, but there are huge lines of people trying to rehome those animals. Them’s just the facts.

    RahXephon, it sounds like an awful situation to be in, and I really hope you do find something that works out well for everybody. I would gently suggest that shelters and rehoming can be so traumatic for elderly animals that in the worst case scenario, a more compassionate choice might be to have the older dog euthanized while it’s still with you and feeling safe and secure.

    Seeing as various people won’t accept my apology or try to understand where I was coming from (which I tried to explain with my apology), perhaps you will accept it from KristinC, who explicitly said she is NOT supporting me, but who may have better explained my reaction better than I did.

  369. 869
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    Jumping on the owner in ‘what to do with elderly dogs’ discussion got me thinking about the time I mentioned to some other 15-y-olds that I was keeping a sparrow at home. One immediately opined that if she were God she would kill me for being so cruel. I found that rather upsetting. My mother made me write an essay about how I could release it but since it couldn’t fly it would quickly be killed. Then they graciously forgave me. Leaping to conclusions didn’t start with the Internet.

    Mattir, how much care does a ball python take? I wantz one!

    One thing that bothers me about the ‘forever home’ gang that I was helping was that they insist kittens must be adopted in pairs if there are no other cats in the home so they won’t be lonely. I have sibling cats but they merely tolerate each other. Many cats grow up to prefer solitude.

  370. 870
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good evening

    Hugs Oniongirl

    Esteleth
    Hugs and a jar of Nutella, too
    As for the machine: Maybe just put up a note at the local supermarket?

    sewing machines
    One day I’ll get my gran’s and have it fixed. It’s in a table, too, and the interesting thing is that you can power it with electricity and a treadle.
    Bernina? When we win the lottery…
    But my Brother is working fine.

    quoderatdemonstrandum
    Tip: stop digging. You pulled a classic notpology and you’re not making it better.

    Caine
    Squeeeeee!

    pentatoid
    In my experience they just grow by themselves. Keeping them at bay is the hard work.

  371. 871
    Forelle

    And what do you know, Renfe is adapting their timetables on the 17th to some “summer timetables”. Gah. Yet I see lots of trains for the 19th, with a stop and quite possibly a change of station too in Zaragoza, so you shouldn’t be in too much trouble. I’ll do my best to be in touch later — I’m going out now.

  372. 872
    Pteryxx

    quoderatdemonstrandum: Apology =/= explanation. An apology has to include explicit admission of error.

    (*I think. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here…)

  373. 873
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    From much earlier in the thread, opposablethumbs:

    kristinc #38 that resonates a hell of a lot with me. A serious major difference with someone, and then they come breezing back after a good long while to say they’re prepared to forgive you? Fuck that. That is taking passive-aggressive to a new level, the gracious forgiveness and how can you be so ungracious as not to be grateful for their generous forgiveness (because obviously by implication the disagreement was entirely your fault in the first place). Actually I’ve just realised this response on my part is almost wholly about me … sorry. I meant to respond to you and sort of boiled over instead.

    No no nooo, that’s pretty much exactly how I feel about my sister too, so I hear you completely. Our original disagreement stopped being my problem years ago, in fact, I own that my reaction to that original disagreement was over the top and presented to her in the way least likely to be productive, so it’s not like I’m freezing her out till she admits she was wrong, you know?

    Rather, I’m still awaiting an indication that she recognizes her treatment of me, while she was upset, was cruel and dismissive. I’m awaiting an acknowledgment that I consider that treatment unacceptable and we need to agree that it’s off limits if we’re going to have a relationship. She refuses to acknowledge any of that and instead, *is* treating it like an issue of neither of us being willing to speak to the other until the other admits they were wrong. And then she misses me and is gracious and willing to “drop” it, which also means dropping her behavior down the memory hole.

    Her dropping by last night has me all stirred up, in the kind of way where I’m out of sorts and cranky but not willing/able to talk about it until I’m in the middle of something else and suddenly say “She drives me fucking crazy!” I really wish we could be close, but goddamn, this is some gaslighting bullshit.

  374. 874
    Pteryxx

    correction: *explicit admission of error OR harm done.

    Wow, I’m rustier at this than I thought.

  375. 875
    Predator Handshake

    Dog update: vet said Matilda is just fine! She said to keep an eye out for signs that her back is bothering her but she’s otherwise in perfect health (although she’s starting to get a bit of tartar buildup on her teeth). We went to the pet store for dental chews and a new bigger-than-her toy, and she made a couple of new human friends, plus a cat that was on a leash. She’s now happily parading around the apartment with her giant stuffing-free beaver.

  376. 876
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD!

  377. 877
    Aratina Cage

    Now at Joe.My.God:
    “Atheists, get out of America!”, says some douchebucket named John Hagee.

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