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May 10 2012

Episode CCCXXVI: Singing scientists, sorta

I was about to complain that Symphony of Science has yet another autotuned paean to physics, but then I found that I missed this one, that’s all about dinosaurs.

All right, not bad, but it’s easy to get people enthused about great big giant things. How about something with molecular biologists or microbiologists or biochemists getting enraptured over their work?

(Episode CCCXXV: Seems apropos.)

848 comments

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  1. 501
    Pteryxx

    Esteleth: is it on Netflix?

  2. 502
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Crap. I really wish I’d seen Caine’s comment before posting. I just seem to be stepping in it everywhere tonight.

  3. 503
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Good. Now everyone ignore what I said in the first 500 comments. >.>

  4. 504
    Inaji

    Mike G:

    I’m such a kninja knitter that you can’t even see the stuff I haven’t made.

    Hee. One of these days, I want one of the Kninja Knitters of Pharyngula to knit me up a Harry Potter Scarf – Slytherin.

  5. 505
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Thor?
    Presumably. I got it on bittorrent, but I think it is out on video.

  6. 506
    Patricia, OM

    Audley – Sorry about the STOP, I solemnly swear we are up to no good, but you can’t play. Delicate condition & all.
    *ruffles one matronly feather I have, and peers down nose*

  7. 507
    Cipher

    Hail Slytherins.

  8. 508
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Eating meat and taking Prozac are other behaviors that irritate SC.

    That’s it, precisely.

  9. 509
    Pteryxx

    eh, Netflix says Thor ain’t streaming yet. (I just started experimenting with Netflix – it works well with the clunky wireless here in Dallas.)

    Oh well, there’s always internet. >_>

  10. 510
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Presumably. I got it on bittorrent, but I think it is out on video.

    Bittorrent I can do. Just postpone the party for 4 days while it downloads for me. lol

  11. 511
    Inaji

    Cipher:

    Hail Slytherins.

    Mmmm. I would have made a beeline for Slytherin. I woulda been damn good in potions class, too.

  12. 512
    Patricia, OM

    Caine – You do realize that there is a Harry Potter knitting book out? My mom has it, but I forgot the Slytherin colors.

  13. 513
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Patricia:

    Sorry about the STOP, I solemnly swear we are up to no good, but you can’t play. Delicate condition & all.

    :D I totally understand.

    I think my last comment got eated so:
    E:

    *falls over laughing*

    Hey now! I so would have crushed on Mark Ruffalo in high school!

    SC:
    I’m still not exactly sure what the hell your deal is. If you want to check out PET, you’re welcome to request to join (even if you use a pseudonym for a facebook account) just like everyone else.

    If not, it just looks like you’re stomping your feet and gnashing your teeth at us at this point.

  14. 514
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Green and silver. No need for google this time lol.

  15. 515
    MikeG

    Caine, you want multiple colors? I need to work on that for a while. I mean, you’re evil smart and ambitious enough for slytherin, so I guess i’ll have to work on my technique.

  16. 516
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Silver and green!

    (I’m a Ravenclaw)

  17. 517
    Patricia, OM

    Thor is out on DVD.

    *squee* Naughty Marvin is looking at accommodations for the Oregon Coast Kite Festival!(I peeked over his shoulder) Naughty me!

  18. 518
    Inaji

    Patricia:

    Caine – You do realize that there is a Harry Potter knitting book out? My mom has it, but I forgot the Slytherin colors.

    I did not realize. Slytherin is dark green & silver. Like this: http://www.harrygear.com/media/slytherin-scarf-tie-lg.jpg

  19. 519
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC has serious issues with antidepressant drugs and other drugs of that class along with serious issues with those who eat meat, along with serious issues with anyone who hunts and serious issues about animals in general.

    Yes! If by “serious issues” you mean objecting to harmful, antihuman corporate placebos and the suffering and deaths of billions of nonhuman animals and those who promote those practices out of spite. Correct.

    Please discuss on FB.

  20. 520
    Inaji

    Mike G:

    Caine, you want multiple colors? I need to work on that for a while. I mean, you’re evil smart and ambitious enough for slytherin, so I guess i’ll have to work on my technique.

    Yessssssssss. Green & Silver. Heh, you get to working on that technique. :D

  21. 521
    onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork

    For the record in case anyone (*crickets chirp*) is interested, the only reason I post primarily at PET these days (the scarce two or three days out of the week I actually do) is because I can’t get easy access to Pharyngula at work, and have been consistently brain-dead when I get home from work since October.

    I miss you guys like crazy, and I hope that if work actually ever calms down at some point (July, maybe; if we don’t lose two of our grants I may actually be able to hire someone so I won’t be covering two positions and working on weekends) I will be back and posting, but I can read and respond to things on PET by email without ever actually logging onto Facebook. And it’s easier to keep up with discussions since things are threaded, and if I only have five minutes to skim & respond to things, it’s nearly impossible to try and keep up with a fast-moving Thread here.

    I’m also becoming increasingly paranoid about what I post publicly, even under a ‘nym, just because of the political situation here and how it can very easily affect my job. Facebook is spawn of the demon, but it is (at least currently) locked and private.

    I may have missed it being mentioned in my brief perusal of the Thread, but the criteria for joining PET is just being a regular poster on Pharyngula, being a relative/friend of a regular poster on Pharyngula, or being involved in Pharyngula meatspace meetups.

    (Though I will probably be back shortly just to post reminders about DC area meat-space meetups, since there are a few coming up very shortly. :)

    *yawn* I’m up too late. Nite, folks!

  22. 522
    Pteryxx

    SC, I hope you realize people are perfectly capable of disagreeing with you without conspiring against you. I disagree with you and I’m not even ON FB. What’s with you? I’m starting to get worried.

  23. 523
    Pteryxx

    onion girl, it’s good to hear from you even briefly here. *anklehugs*

    And that’s a good point, that FTB is blocked in places FB isn’t.

  24. 524
    Inaji

    :Pounces on Onion Girl and hugses her: I miss you!

  25. 525
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, I hope you realize people are perfectly capable of disagreeing with you without conspiring against you.

    Regardless, this would have no implications my arguments.

  26. 526
    Patricia, OM

    Audley – OK, as long as you understand a bit of cosseting by the old school crowd won’t hurt you. ;)

    Well, at least nobody ask for a Tom Baker, Dr. Who scarf. *Glares*

  27. 527
    Cipher

    Regardless, this would have no implications my arguments.

    But it does make your “Please discuss on FB.” a rather odd way to leave off a post in which you’re responding to a person who isn’t on FB, who is in turn responding to another person who isn’t on FB. Especially given the fact that the people who are on FB have repeatedly explained that the FB group spends very little time talking about things you/other people on Pharyngula say.

  28. 528
    Part-Time Insomniac

    Cipher and Josh: I’m afraid the first coherent reply I could muster to that article was, “Awww, did the big meanies break yer speshulness?”

    What the hell is wrong with these people, that they can only feel like they’re worth something if they have some super-duper special privilege or what-have-you?
    ——————————————

    OK, so my Clip Zip doesn’t support 8GB chips. On the upside, now I have backup for some music files in case something happens to my comp or I delete the files by accident.
    ——————————————

    Joy! Less than a month until kindergarten graduation, and a month and 4 days before the last day of school!
    ——————————————

    Horses rock. Even if they are evil.
    ——————————————

    We watched Sleeping Beauty in the afterschool group today. The spring concert is all Disney songs, so my co-worker decided to celebrate this by showing a classic. And it wasn’t some special edition with deleted scenes added back in, either.

    I still say Maleficent looks a bit like my aunt. Also, I’d really like to steal her staff and use it to shoot lightning at certain people.

  29. 529
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    SC:

    Please discuss on FB.

    Seriously? Stamp your feet a little harder, I don’t think everyone’s heard you yet.

    This is just getting fucking unreasonable. We don’t discuss you on PET (until tonight, but that’s hardly a surprise) and we rarely discuss Pharyngula goings on. Have you bothered to answer Jadehawk’s very reasonable question: how is this different from emails and/or meetups?

    Or is it that you feel like you’re just not getting enough attention, so you have to make a spectacle of yourself so people pay attention to you?

    (Just as a head’s up, not everyone talking about PET is a part of the group or even a part of facebook, so you’re kind of starting to sound like an idiot.)

  30. 530
    Inaji

    Patricia:

    Well, at least nobody ask for a Tom Baker, Dr. Who scarf. *Glares*

    Ooooooooooooh, I have wanted one of those since I was 9 years old! *stares into Madam Patricia’s glare*
     
    For the hard of thinking: I am not on FB and I have never been on PET.

  31. 531
    Pteryxx

    Sheesh, SC, provide some *reason* for suspecting folks are talking behind your back, and I’d even listen. If you haven’t noticed, now that you’ve made the accusation, folks are talking about you RIGHT FREAKING HERE. I mean, duh.

  32. 532
    Inaji

    Audley:

    Or is it that you feel like you’re just not getting enough attention, so you have to make a spectacle of yourself so people pay attention to you?

    This ^. I’m beginning to think if there isn’t an actual clinical paranoia problem, that SC simply shows up here with this shit for a drama fix.

  33. 533
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    But it does make your “Please discuss on FB.” a rather odd way to leave off a post in which you’re responding to a person who isn’t on FB, who is in turn responding to another person who isn’t on FB. Especially given the fact that the people who are on FB have repeatedly explained that the FB group spends very little time talking about things you/other people on Pharyngula say.

    Alleged FB technicalities are, of course, the central issue (even though my original remark was in response to a comment about cross-posting). By all means, focus on that remark, and ignore anything substantive.

  34. 534
    Cipher

    I do not understand that comment at all. I recognize that you are being sarcastic, but I don’t know what “Alleged FB technicalities” have to do with anything or, possibly, what they are.

  35. 535
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    You haven’t said anything substantive!

    No one knows what the hell your issue is, SC, beyond the fact that you don’t like PET and it’s “undemocratic”. You haven’t even bothered to explain why you think it’s inherently more undemocratic than email groups or even friendships outside of TET.

    Stamp those feet and wail a little more, SC.

    Caine,

    I’m beginning to think if there isn’t an actual clinical paranoia problem, that SC simply shows up here with this shit for a drama fix.

    Well, unless she explains why this is such a big fucking deal, I’m right there with you.

  36. 536
    Inaji

    A tick, a godsdamn tick was crawling on my frigging laptop, making a beeline right for me. So much for a good night’s sleep tonight. Auuuugh. I killed it with fire.

  37. 537
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Why don’t you pretend that my supposed paranoia doesn’t exist, and address the actual arguments?

    ***

    Have you bothered to answer Jadehawk’s very reasonable question: how is this different from emails and/or meetups?

    Yes, I have. Not to your satisfaction, evidently, but so be it.

  38. 538
    Patricia, OM

    Oh right, the Dr. Who scarf is three times around Churchil Downs. *snort*

  39. 539
    Inaji

    Audley:

    Well, unless she explains why this is such a big fucking deal, I’m right there with you.

    Yep. SC, no one cares about you enough to talk about you on FB, okay? Feel better? Jesus.

    Honestly, as I said earlier, if someone simply has to hoggle about me, I prefer it done privately, rather than publicly, like at ERV. Some shit, I do not need to know about. (Although, in all fairness, everyone who has had some need to say nasty shit about me makes sure it’s public.)

  40. 540
    Cipher

    And SC, it’s pissing me off that you continue to downplay the fact that I personally have been trying to understand where the hell you’re coming from for literally hours, a project made especially difficult by the fact that you repeatedly answered honest questions by insisting that the answer should be obvious. It’s shitty of you to continue saying things like “ignore anything substantive” in that context.

    Also, TICKS ARE SCARY.

  41. 541
    Amblebury

    WAAH! A tick. Glad you got it before it got you.

    Yes, Thor is out on DVD, I watched it last night. One of the gels insisted it was compulsory pre-watching before The Avengers, which I’m heading out to tonight.

    I have downloaded something called MacFreedom, or Freedom for Mac – can’t remember which – that locks you out of the interwebs so you can get work ‘n shit done.

    Look how well it’s working!

  42. 542
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    No one knows what the hell your issue is, SC,

    How sad.

    I’m beginning to think if there isn’t an actual clinical paranoia problem,…

    Also sad.

  43. 543
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    So it’s my fault because you can’t be bothered to explain yourself fully?

    Jesus Christ.

  44. 544
    Cipher

    I’m clearly too tired and pissy to be here right now. I need to go work on my translation.

  45. 545
    betelgeux

    Happy Richard Feynman Day, everyone!

    It’s a holiday I invented to honor the great bongo-playing, safecracking, hilariously brilliant physicist, who would have turned 94 today. Unfortunately, I’m the only one currently celebrating it, but I hope it will catch on with other physics nerds.

    I was really hoping for a Google Doodle today in honor of Feynman. If the inventor of the zipper and the discoverer of Vitamin C get a doodle, why shouldn’t Feynman? I wrote an email to google suggesting a Feynman doodle, but (unsurprisingly) they didn’t respond. Anyone else want to join the crusade and Pharyngulate google with emails demanding a Feynman doodle? You can send doodle suggestions to [email protected].

    Videos like this make creationists and religous nuts face the fact that science is a lot more logical than faith.

  46. 546
    Inaji

    Patricia:

    Oh right, the Dr. Who scarf is three times around Churchil Downs. *snort*

    I know, I know. I haven’t looked, but I’d be surprised if you couldn’t buy one.

  47. 547
    Rey Fox

    I still say Maleficent looks a bit like my aunt. Also, I’d really like to steal her staff and use it to shoot lightning at certain people.

    I’d like to turn into a dragon.

  48. 548
    Pteryxx

    SC, I hardly know you and I’m getting worried about your state of mind. You’re not giving any arguments but hints, snark and distrust of literally every question anyone asks you. What the fuck? You’re not in the habit of trolling and the last few fights I saw out of you, you made actual arguments. What the bloody hell do you think you’re doing?

  49. 549
    Inaji

    Cipher:

    Also, TICKS ARE SCARY.

    Amblebury:

    WAAH! A tick. Glad you got it before it got you.

    Ticks are creepier than all fuck. Hate them. Hate.

    Hi Betelgeux! Happy Feynman Day to you, too. :D

  50. 550
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I’m assuming that your response was this:

    We’re talking about an exclusive online Pharyngula-parallel group, with which I had problems long before it involved me.

    I think it’s played a role in the dynamics I’ve seen here in the past several months. Maybe not, and the dynamic has just changed.

    1) I have email groups with other Horde member that are completely exclusive and private. Why isn’t that scary to you? I could be talking shit about you right now with other Horde members through email. It’s just another medium.

    2) PET never fucking involved you until today.

    3) You have nothing to back up your assertion that PET has changed TET and it’s made even more ridiculous by the fact that plenty of TETers aren’t even on FB and you’ve no way of telling who is and who isn’t.

    So, I’m still chalking this up to your need to cause drama.

  51. 551
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    I found some wee bud vases (?) today at Goodwill, glass inside of silverplated holders, and bought them just because they were so cute and unusual. Didn’t notice until I was in the car on the way home that the bottoms are stamped GERMANY US ZONE. Woo!

  52. 552
    Patricia, OM

    OK, watch me try to slyther out of this one…

    Caine -
    Everybody knows I knit socks or lace, not garter stitch. *smirk*
    (she won’t fall for that shit)

  53. 553
    Jessa

    Caine:

    I know, I know. I haven’t looked, but I’d be surprised if you couldn’t buy one.

    Addi Turbo has an American Size 8, 12-inch needle. This is how you make cash off of your Whovian friends in your spare time.

  54. 554
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    How sad.

    Sad for you, maybe, since it must be frustrating that we’re all not mindreaders.

    Or maybe happy for you ‘cos you get to be a dramallama yet again.

  55. 555
    John Morales

    SC, for the third (and last) time I tell you:

    PET is not a parallel to TET nor does it echo, mirror, reflect or (in particular) affect Pharyngula.

    (In my fucking opinion)

  56. 556
    Inaji

    I found some wee bud vases (?) today at Goodwill, glass inside of silverplated holders, and bought them just because they were so cute and unusual. Didn’t notice until I was in the car on the way home that the bottoms are stamped GERMANY US ZONE. Woo!

    Oh Kristin, what an awesome find! I’m a bit jealous.

  57. 557
    ibyea

    @SC
    Mattir has invited me to the PET, and I can honestly tell you that the going ons over there has nothing to do with here.

  58. 558
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I found some wee bud vases (?) today at Goodwill, glass inside of silverplated holders, and bought them just because they were so cute and unusual. Didn’t notice until I was in the car on the way home that the bottoms are stamped GERMANY US ZONE. Woo!

    Oh Kristin, what an awesome find! I’m a bit jealous.

    Yay for your find! I’m completely clueless as to what they are or the meaning of the find though. Google is useless in my endeavor to find out about it, or more likely I’m useless at googling.

  59. 559
    Patricia, OM

    Jessa – Don’t encourage Caine. We are on a mission here!

  60. 560
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, I hardly know you and I’m getting worried about your state of mind. You’re not giving any arguments but hints, snark and distrust of literally every question anyone asks you. What the fuck? You’re not in the habit of trolling and the last few fights I saw out of you, you made actual arguments. What the bloody hell do you think you’re doing?

    You don’t know me at all. I’m maladjusted, and that’s just fine with me.

  61. 561
    ibyea

    Of course, the discussion just spilled over in this case naturally because the conversation is about the PET.

  62. 562
    Inaji

    Patricia:

    OK, watch me try to slyther out of this one…

    :D It’s okay, really. I can actually buy one and that way, I get the tres cool snake badge on it, too.

    Jessa:

    This is how you make cash off of your Whovian friends in your spare time.

    That’s cool. Gotta get that cold, hard cash somehow. :D

  63. 563
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    PET is not a parallel to TET nor does it echo, mirror, reflect or (in particular) affect Pharyngula.

    The comment to which I originally responded stated that it was repeating here what the person said on PET.

  64. 564
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Really? Linking to MLK Jr? Wow.Just. Wow.

  65. 565
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The comment to which I originally responded stated that it was repeating here what the person said on PET.

    BECAUSE IT WAS RELEVANT. I had cause to say essentially the same thing in both places.

  66. 566
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Really? Linking to MLK Jr?

    Yes, about maladjustment. But do go on with the ad homs.

  67. 567
    Amblebury

    Ha! I got a bud-vase like that once. Got it for next to nothing, and it was a perfect, 1950s Holme Gaard. With teh sticker still on!

    I call those my Gollum moments.

  68. 568
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    WTF? Ad homs? Linking to that video is just straight over the top dramatic.

  69. 569
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    JAL, it means they were made between 1945 and 1955, in the American occupied areas of Germany (probably Bavaria). Apparently the German porcelain and silver producers kept going through the occupation, I expect a lot of it being stuff to sell to the Allied troops. Some American soldier might well have bought these and sent/brought them home to his mother/wife/sweetheart. They’re not worth much, silverplated rather than sterling and very small, but it’s the history behind them.

  70. 570
    Inaji

    Esteleth:

    BECAUSE IT WAS RELEVANT.

    Yes, it was. How in the sweet fuck all any of this is relevant to SC requires speshul magickal powers to see, apparently.

    I do the same thing, when I’ve been discussing a particular post or thread elsewhere – I’ll often mention “well, I was talking with about this with Mister” or similar. In reality, this is simply no big deal.

  71. 571
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    E,

    I had cause to say essentially the same thing in both places.

    Oh silly, silly E. That just proves that ALL we talk about over on PET is what goes on here, especially what SC says. Didn’t you know that?

  72. 572
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    JAL, it means they were made between 1945 and 1955, in the American occupied areas of Germany (probably Bavaria). Apparently the German porcelain and silver producers kept going through the occupation, I expect a lot of it being stuff to sell to the Allied troops. Some American soldier might well have bought these and sent/brought them home to his mother/wife/sweetheart. They’re not worth much, silverplated rather than sterling and very small, but it’s the history behind them.

    Ah ok. I was able to google to get the picture of them but not the story. Man, I suck at googling. I love hearing the history of things. That is indeed cool.

  73. 573
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    BECAUSE IT WAS RELEVANT. I had cause to say essentially the same thing in both places.

    Yes. This has implications for the silly argument about the total separation of the two. No one could have a serious discussion of their interrelation without recognizing this, but in truth I don’t think that’s possible here anymore.

  74. 574
    Pteryxx

    No, I’m seriously worried that SC may have some sort of mental issue going on. Someone trolling, drama hounding, or just being an ass (as certain regulars sometimes are) would be doing a heck of a lot more talking, and attacking. So would SC, going by the TLC fight not long ago. This sounds more like sulking and giving up out of bitterness.

  75. 575
    Inaji

    J_A_L:

    Linking to that video is just straight over the top dramatic.

    Part of the pattern. Now is the attempt to appear magickally superior, understanding things none of us peons can possibly grok, it’s not her, it’s never her, it’s us. This will be followed by nasty ass insults eventually, then the stomp off, with cries of “why are being so mean to me!?”

  76. 576
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Yes. This has implications for the silly argument about the total separation of the two. No one could have a serious discussion of their interrelation without recognizing this, but in truth I don’t think that’s possible here anymore.

    It’s not like they could talk about the same topic from different things going on. Cuz I mean if they talk about the prez there it must be because of a post here. Hence that proves it’s totally parallel copying every thread and topic, hiding things from posters here.

    *eyeroll*

  77. 577
    Pteryxx

    This has implications for the silly argument about the total separation of the two.

    No it doesn’t. Even if two groups of people have nothing to do with one another, just being in the same culture means similar discussions would occasionally happen just by random chance. Insisting on NO overlap, ever, is irrational.

  78. 578
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    SC,
    How you even know if the PET thread had anything to do with PZ’s post and not someone just pointing out the Time magazine cover? I’ve had several non-Pharyngula fb friends post about the same goddamn thing over the course of today.

    (Honestly, I don’t know one way or the other, I’m going to check.)

  79. 579
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    That just proves that ALL we talk about over on PET is what goes on here, especially what SC says.

    Aren’t you embarrassed by this garbage? You should be.

  80. 580
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Part of the pattern. Now is the attempt to appear magickally superior, understanding things none of us peons can possibly grok, it’s not her, it’s never her, it’s us. This will be followed by nasty ass insults eventually, then the stomp off, with cries of “why are being so mean to me!?”

    Ah. I had been blissfully unaware of such a pattern. I do indeed remember the ridiculous argument with TLC and hunting. I did not remember or realize it was SC doing that one. I will definitely remember from now one.

  81. 581
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    SC,
    Why should I be embarrassed? I’m amused at your impotent flailing and apparent paranoia and martyr complex, nothing more.

    Honestly SC, do you have any friends? Any loved ones? Pets? An org that you volunteer for?

    If you need your attention fix, it might be best served spending time with people who actually give a fuck about what you have to say. Less frustrating for everyone around here (including yourself), anyway.

  82. 582
    John Morales

    The comment to which I originally responded stated that it was repeating here what the person said on PET.

    Yes.

    Much like it might have been repeating a comment made on Patheos or another site. A habitual honesty of which I know you partake.

    You and I both know you have a theoretical point; the phase-space of outcomes does not exclude that which you fear — a Soviet-erea secret backchannel for a cabal — perhaps it even facilitates such.

    I tell you: such privacy settings and membership screening as PET imposes are for the protection of its members, not for plotting or sedition (or indeed, any nefarious purpose).

    Yes, it may well go wrong.

    Yes, historically such things have over time evolved into self-appointed cognoscenti elites.

    (Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Who knows the furure?

    But not yet, IMNSHO))

  83. 583
    Jessa

    Don’t encourage Caine. We are on a mission here!

    *Ouch! dodges ruffled pullet feathers*
    Yes,of course, how could I forget?
    *Ouch! Ouch!*

  84. 584
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I do indeed remember the ridiculous argument with TLC and hunting.

    Stalking and killing other living beings ROCKS.

  85. 585
    Amblebury

    SC, I don’t think anyone has claimed the two are totally separate. That’s impossible because of the origins of both for a start.

    What they have said, ad nauseum, is that the two are very different, and there’s very little, if any overlapping of discussion because there’s no need to boil your cabbages twice, as an aunt of mine used to say.

    No, it isn’t possible to discuss it here, or anywhere, because it would be a discussion about the rights and wrongs of something you’re imagining.

  86. 586
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    amblebury — I have a speckled one-serving teapot that I spotted at the Goodwill, thought “hey that has nice lines” and snapped up. Got it home, Googled the maker’s mark and found out it was fine German porcelain.

    Another interesting thing I found this week — I collect vintage souvenir cedar boxes and this one had a postcard decoupage on the lid, from the Citrus Tower in Clermont, Florida. I originally bought it for the wonderful vintage saturated blues and greens in the photo, but after finding more about the Citrus Tower I’m much more glad I have it — the Citrus Tower was originally built for viewing miles and miles of citrus groves but all of them are gone now and these days the Tower overlooks miles and miles of suburban developments. So it’s a piece of a history that’s really gone now.

  87. 587
    MikeG

    SC, i’ve been reading for years, and I am subscribed to your rss, and I don’t understand what you’re on about. Are you offended about being ostracized, of afraid about being maligned behind your back? Do you even think this has anything to do with you at all? Aside from your anger, i get the feeling you don’t think this about you. If you don’t think this is about you personally, what are we missing? I think some of us have different opinions about veganism and the utility of psychiatric pharmaceuticals, but those were only brought up after you got angry. Hell, the veganism is relatively new for you, is it not?

    I’m flummoxed here. Help me understand.

    I have valued your contributions, and I really don’t understand what’s going on here.

  88. 588
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Omfg. I’m not rehashing all this shit. That’s why I didn’t pounce on the medication comment even though it pissed me off and I dislike the superiority of it all.

    Fuck this.

  89. 589
    John Morales

    Audley Z.:

    If you need your attention fix, it might be best served spending time with people who actually give a fuck about what you have to say.

    I give a shitfuck about what SC has to say.

    (I’m not unfamiliar with her style, and I know damn well she ain’t in this for the attention)

  90. 590
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Honestly SC, do you have any friends? Any loved ones? Pets? An org that you volunteer for?

    All of the above.

    And that’s a horribly vicious thing to ask. I’ll leave you with that.

  91. 591
    Inaji

    Oh, FFS, there is no 5th column. Get over yourself, SC.

    Kristinc, oh, you find the coolest stuff! You have excellent thrift store mojo.

  92. 592
    Amblebury

    Kristinc – I swear to Dog I actually start glowing when I hear those stories.

  93. 593
    John Morales

    J_A_L,

    That’s why I didn’t pounce on the medication comment even though it pissed me off and I dislike the superiority of it all.

    As a favour, I tell you this: In my experience, SC’s opinion is often worthy of being argued, but never to be dismissed.

    (Some people’s arguments, you dig a bit and hit a bedrock of presupposition. SC’s, you dig a bit and find the hole gets bigger)

  94. 594
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Just_A_Lurker,

    Really? Linking to MLK Jr? Wow.Just. Wow.

    WTF? Ad homs? Linking to that video is just straight over the top dramatic.

    Aquaria does that all the time, except she links to his text rather than his videos.

    I think you’re being unfair and kind of weird about this.

    In an argument with Piltdown Man, I quoted some Immortal Technique because I found it relevant and well said. I think it is frankly quite strange to expect people not to refer to famous speech when they recall it and find it relevant to the discussion.

  95. 595
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    John:

    I give a shitfuck about what SC has to say.

    Okay, I stand corrected. But I’m going to bet that she’s going to remain coy about the whole thing. *shrugs*

    (Is it just me, or have you been dropping the f-bomb a lot more lately?)

    SC:

    And that’s a horribly vicious thing to ask.

    Considering that you won’t respond to my substantive posts asking you to clarify (or anyone else’s for that matter), I assumed it’s because you’re not in this because of any real objection.

    So you think I’m being vicious , so what? I think you’re being an annoying douche over this whole thing. Again, so what?

  96. 596
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Yeah, that was a bit much. I had flashbacks to middle school there!

    Sheesh!

    SC, I hope you’ll believe me that I don’t have a problem with you. I view our current disagreement a a cordial one. I hope that sentiment is mutual.

  97. 597
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I don’t see how in the world it is relevant. That’s why it seems over the top and strictly for dramatic effect.

  98. 598
    John Morales

    Audley,

    (Is it just me, or have you been dropping the f-bomb a lot more lately?)

    Emphasis takes many forms, and I try not to use a nuke when I can just press my foot. ;)

    (SC is worth it)

  99. 599
    Inaji

    John:

    (I’m not unfamiliar with her style, and I know damn well she ain’t in this for the attention)

    You aren’t the only one familiar with her style, John. As for not being in it for the attention, well, I wouln’t be so sure about that one. This isn’t the first time she’s stirred things up over manufactured drama. It’s tiring as all hell, and all of us aren’t that interested in the protracted melodrama, in which, SC will not just fucking spit out whatever the fuck it is that needs to be said.

    Also, once again, she’s going about, being offensive to other people without a care. That’s damn tiring, too.

    You’re free to care all you like, that’s just fine with me and you don’t need anyone’s permission anyway. However, as this, like other instances of SC’s drama, is to go on and on and on, it might be best if it moves to her blog, where it’s just dandy if it’s all about her.

    She’s pulling classic derailing moves here, John, and the reason she’s in TET doing this again is because it quit working in the Time Cover thread*.

    *Yes, I know there’s no set topic in TET, however, the rest of us are attempting to carry on as usual and have regular ol’ conversations.

  100. 600
    ibyea

    @SC
    These are some of the topics in the PET:

    About the PET (you are only brought up for 4 or 5 comments only because of your relevancy to the topic)
    Ultraorthodox Jews
    Someone posted a link to statistics
    Someone’s weekend
    Some debugging thing
    Time magazine thing (which everyone is talking about anyways)
    About rationalization against marriage equality by religious folks
    Something about raw milk

    These are not topics in which someone backstabs someone else.

  101. 601
    John Morales

    PS Audley et alia, I note that I do not dispute anything you say other than your characterisation of SC and her presentation.

    (Your arguments have merit, too, and SC cannot just rely on past performance. Flouncing is flouncing)

  102. 602
    Cipher

    See, I care what SC has to say too, which is why I have spent so much time trying to figure out what the hell she is saying. I get that sometimes people might not want to explain their arguments to people who don’t understand them for whatever reason – time, energy, patience, whatever. It happens and I get that. But it is incredibly frustrating to keep making pissy cryptic remarks about how shitty everyone is for not agreeing with you while doing that.

  103. 603
    MikeG

    I tried. I still don’t know what the hell is going on.

    As a favour, I tell you this: In my experience, SC’s opinion is often worthy of being argued, but never to be dismissed.

    Agreed. Don’t take this the wrong way, SC, but I am reminded of Truth Machine in the way you argue. Once there is a bone celery stalk between the teeth, there is no letting go. No forgiveness, no more listening.

    Yeah, I tweaked with that strike. I’m not sure if i’m sorry or not, yet.

  104. 604
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    (SC is worth it)

    I logged back in to say that I’m touched.

    And now I’ll log back out. :)

  105. 605
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I don’t see how in the world it is relevant.

    Evidently, that’s because you’re JAL and not SC. People have different mental associations. She indicated what she found relevant to her own speech. I think it’s fair to assume that she understands the connection she’s trying to communicate.

    Sometimes people say things I don’t understand. More than 99% of the time, though, it is apparent that they have their own reasons for doing things differently than I would. In late adolescence I realized this doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

    That’s why it seems over the top and strictly for dramatic effect.

    Okay. But from my perspective that just looks like a temporary failure of your theory of mind.

  106. 606
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    So the objections to the FB group are:

    1. It’s undemocratic because in an ideal world, the Movement would exist entirely in public

    2. There are unidentified Leaders talking about stuff there that shapes discussion here

    3. People who aren’t comfortable, whether because of disability, youth, or temperament, posting on Pharyngula should not be part of the Movement because it should be public

    4. Participation in private relationships changes participation in public spaces (this is perilously similar to the Catholic teachings about avoiding particular friendships, an expression that referred to sexual as well as emotionally intimate and private relationships)

    5. Referring to the FB group creates a sense of in-group/out-group cliqueishness which is destructive of the Pharyngula/TET commentariat community culture

    6. Some valuable commenters may cease participating in FtB Pharyngula in favor of FB and thus valuable voices are lost

    7. ZOMG – those bad FB (and Ravelry and G+ and Diaspora and email) groups are probably sniping about SC Behind Her Back

    Of these criticisms, only #5 and 6 have any merit, and even that is slight, since the FB group is almost entirely open to regular commenters (with, afaik, one banning in 2 years). People come and go from regular participation for all sorts of reasons, and many of us are aware of the issue and make an effort to draft all-new, not cross-posted content for Pharyngula in order to help preserve the wonderful community that has developed here.

    Back to plying handspun yarn. And remembering the wonderful eye and ear candy that was Dark Justice earlier in the day.

  107. 607
    betelgeux

    Totally off-topic (if that’s possible on TET) but I remember when PZ first announced that he was writing a book, he held a sort of naming contest here on Pharyngula. I remember he wanted to name the book “The__________Atheist” and let the commenters fill in the blank. Later, he chose “The Happy Atheist”, and since then I’ve wanted to read the comments on the naming contest thread to see who chose the winning title.

    I’ve tried to find that post repeatedly (I’m pretty sure it was on SB), but I can never remember the name of it or the date it was posted. I’ve searched the SB and FtB archives, and I can never find it. I’ve tried google as well, to no avail.

    Does anyone have a link to that post or remember the name/date? I remember some of the titles that people suggested were pretty neat, and I’ve been wanting to reread them.

  108. 608
    Patricia, OM

    Jessa – No ouchs intended! That sneaky Caine is trying to divert the Pharynguknitters into doing three laps around Churchill Downs to make her a Tom Baker ‘Who” scarf. Nope. She has to suffer until the current mission is accomplished.

    *so there*

  109. 609
    Cipher

    Here you are, betelgeux.

  110. 610
    ibyea

    @life
    Yes, people a lot of time talk in ways others don’t understand. But usually, when people are asked to clarify, they clarify, and you get to know what they are mad/disagreeing about, even if you still disagree. People above complain that SC was asked to clarify, and he/she didn’t.

  111. 611
    John Morales

    ॐ:

    But from my perspective that just looks like a temporary failure of your theory of mind.

    More specifically, the fundamental attribution error.

  112. 612
    John Morales

    ibyea, she.

    (Her nym links to her blog)

  113. 613
    ibyea

    @John Morales
    Thanks.

  114. 614
    John Morales

    Mr. Mattir, MRA Chick @106, good summation.

  115. 615
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    So, since I can never tell when a thread is properly dead or just resting, I thought I’d mention, especially if Josh is here, that Greg Laden blocked me and a few others from his blog for daring to question his “vote for Obama or Romney wins” threats.

    FREETHOUGHT!

    As far as what everyone’s talking about, I’m trying to get caught up! I really need to get some hawt tipz on how everyone manages to follow multiple comment threads without their minds liquefying and running down their spinal columns like unset custard.

  116. 616
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I note that I do not dispute anything you say other than your characterisation of SC and her presentation.

    That’s fine, John. I may not have been around as long as you or SC or Caine*, but I’m not a newbie. I’ve been here for years at this point and I’ve seen this kind of behavior from her before. The pattern of SC making cryptic comments and refusing to clarify or address anyone’s questions/points is nothing new. It strikes me as either a ploy to get attention or a way to feel superior to all of us. Either way, it’s obnoxious.

    We could have had a productive conversation about PET. It didn’t even occur to me that some people might take issue with it (perhaps because I’ve got fingers in both pies). Oh well.

    *Or any number of other commenters here.

  117. 617
    strange gods before me ॐ

    People above complain that SC was asked to clarify, and he/she didn’t.

    Hm? No, they didn’t ask for any clarification. Not about the MLK video. That’s all I’m addressing.

    Pteryxx wanted to yap about SC’s state of mind. SC responded that she is okay with being maladjusted. She thought that MLK said well what she was trying to communicate about maladjustment. JAL objected to posting this video. This last event is what I think is unfair and kind of weird.

  118. 618
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Don’t take this the wrong way, SC, but I am reminded of Truth Machine in the way you argue.

    I take it as a great compliment. OK – bye.

  119. 619
    Patricia, OM

    I’m so off topic with this knitting stuff, that I’m gonna bag it up.

    The high school students are coming on Monday to prep my house & then Tuesday to paint it – I’m finishing the prep work for that this weekend. So see ya horde after the great excitment!

  120. 620
    strange gods before me ॐ

    John,

    More specifically, the fundamental attribution error.

    Ah, that would also account for it. I hadn’t thought of that.

  121. 621
    Cipher

    But I like knitting!
    Have fun with being painted, Patricia :D

  122. 622
    Inaji

    Mattir:

    So the objections to the FB group are:

    Good summary, however, I think all of that is pure smoke. I think SC’s actual issue is the one thing she came out and said on the TC thread: “Pharyngula was better in the old days! Waah!”

    One notable thing about TET. When it first started, it was to carry on arguments which had started in other threads, much like TZT is functioning now. TET then evolved into a more social thread, and because of that, it’s provided an immediate place of comfort for lots and lots of new people.

    PET has provided a place of immediate comfort for a lot of people, too, for various reasons. Both of these things caused a fair amount of shift in how things work at Pharyngula. All for the good, if you ask me.

    TET and PET have been in place for a good while now, and happily diverged, providing a comfy place for everyone. I get the idea that SC resents this totally.

    SC was also very unhappy with my saying that her ‘arguments’ in this matter reminded me of the woman who had a problem with transgender women. The resemblance is clear, at least to me. SC seems to feel there’s a proper way to become a commenter here and if those steps aren’t taken, you cannot possibly be a True Pharyngulite™, therefor, you’re undermining the Gnu Atheist movement at large.

    I think it’s a shitload of silliness.

  123. 623
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Mattir:

    There are unidentified Leaders talking about stuff there that shapes discussion here

    Oh, I so nominate you for the Dear Leader™ position.

  124. 624
    ibyea

    @Rah Xephon
    I want to know how people do that too! I can barely keep up, especially since I am working from 10:30AM-9:30PM, and I only have occasional chance to check the thread.

  125. 625
    chigau (違う)

    I have a facebork account.
    I joined in order to be able to read other postings.
    I don’t think I’ve logged on this year.
    Everything in my farcebook profile is a lie, except the email.

    Ripping baby carrots out of the ground ROCKS, too.
    so does hacking off an asparagus spear and eating it.
    and fresh peas.

  126. 626
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    Sometimes people say things I don’t understand. More than 99% of the time, though, it is apparent that they have their own reasons for doing things differently than I would. In late adolescence I realized this doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

    This. I often disagree with people in this community about all sorts of things. I try to keep in mind that the disagreement does not mean that either of us is right or wrong. This is why I’ve actually spent my Saturday night thinking about public/private group issues.

  127. 627
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Kristinc – I swear to Dog I actually start glowing when I hear those stories.

    Hee. Some of my favorite things, though, are the ones I’ve been coveting desperately in Etsy’s vintage section (at premium prices, natch) and then serendipitously find at the thrift myself. I lemmed after one of those Lane mini cedar chests in the worst way for the longest time and then walked into a tiny independent thrift last month and found one for a few bucks. And it says inside that it was “presented by” a furniture store that has not existed at that address for 40+ years — the building is considered historic now, and part of our restored downtown.

    I also collect vintage afghans and polyester quilts, which practically get thrown away at yard sales and thrifts around here. I love wondering about who made them, and in the case of the quilts, from what scraps — some of the polyester patterns really boggle the mind when I try to imagine garments made of them. And some of the afghans gain or lose stitches as the pattern progresses and turn into trapezoids, which makes me giggle.

  128. 628
    Inaji

    Patricia:

    The high school students are coming on Monday to prep my house & then Tuesday to paint it – I’m finishing the prep work for that this weekend. So see ya horde after the great excitment!

    You got students to be paint slaves? Oooooh, lucky you! Have fun bossing them about. I promise, I will be sure to suffer this weekend, Madam Patricia.

  129. 629
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I just said wow. She responding that somehow I was ad homing her. There still isn’t any clarification on how a MLK JR speech about not accepting racial bias etc is relevant to SC’s hatred of PET. There was nothing said about it at all, just the link.

    That’s the part that is unfair and kind of weird? So because I said it seemed over the top and dramatic since I clearly don’t understand the point, I’m being unfair and weird? Cuz you know, it’s not like it could be clarified or explained at all.

    Your post seems really condescending, since you know you totally grew out of this and I’m being all juvenile.

  130. 630
    MikeG

    Right, fine then. I’m not a regular commenter, and I have no right to expect explanations from anyone. (Hell, regular commenters don’t either, so who am I kidding.) but I still don’t get it.

    Whatever. SC, I have long respected your contributions, especially with the Honduras situation. I don’t understand your argument tonight, and i’ll check in tomorrow with the hope you will explain it. I don’t take your arguments lightly, but I didn’t see any tonight. WTF?

  131. 631
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Speaking of knitting, though, I’m crocheting a scarf. I decided to do it in granny half-squares/triangles. Seemed like that was easier than some of the other methods, especially since it’s my first “real” project. I’ve got about 2 feet done; how long should a scarf be, ideally?

  132. 632
    broboxley OT

    long time no view, too busy. Would like any input from any bird types. I live in sorta north georgia. I see a lot of crows. I spent many years in Alaska and love ravens. I swear I saw and then heard a raven here locally. They are much larger than crows and have a different call. In fact I amuse myself when crows come by the house by talking raven to them. Crows freak completely out when the elder race is mentioned. So how possible is it that a raven came from the north? Has there been any other habitat movement by rsvens?

  133. 633
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Between 4 and 5 feet, Rah.

  134. 634
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Whatever. I’m really fucking pissy at the moment and the simple solution is to fuck off with SC on killfile.

    Bye all.

  135. 635
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Agh so threadrupt today. Don’t Facebook but want to join PET just to spite SC. Good Friend might though.

    What about the email group? How does one join?

  136. 636
    ibyea

    @RahXephon
    As long as the 4th Doctor’s. ;)

  137. 637
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    Would someone mind telling me the Cliffnotes version of this SC situation? If not I’ll eventually get caught up on these threads, but I’m curious.

  138. 638
    Cipher

    What about the email group? How does one join?

    There’s an email group?

    I think what might have happened is that you mistook someone talking about emailing a group of Pharyngulites for someone talking about emailing a Group of Pharyngulites.

  139. 639
    Jessa

    I’m mostly a lurker on Pharyngula, but I used PET to arrange accommodations at Rhinebeck and for the Reason Rally. So, what does that make me?

  140. 640
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Ripping baby carrots out of the ground ROCKS, too.

    You’re hilarious.

  141. 641
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    thunk:
    Usually it’s just an exchange of emails for various reason and the “groups” kind of organically grow out of that. It’s not a planned thing, or a official thing. It’s just extending our friendships outside of TET, you know?

  142. 642
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Bah. I see.

  143. 643
    Patricia, OM

    Cipher – Thanks! This painting is a veterans/widows/orphans project being done by the local high school. I am SO lucky to have been chosen. The kids actually raised the money to paint my house themselves!

    So, out and off, except for a brief update about the kids.

    And you knitters (!) lets go! (I got the socks ;) )

  144. 644
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Cipher:

    There’s an email group?

    No. You were right, it’s just private emails between friends. :)

  145. 645
    Amblebury

    Augh! Kristinc, I would love to take you to a shop in Auckland I frequent, when I’m up that way.

    It’s called Victorian Gilt, and it’s a funny little packed-to-the-rafters with stuff shop. The proprietor tells me it’s where a lot of the costumes – UK clothing circa 1930 – used in the Narnia movies were bought.

    They have literally, stacks of old fabrics. I buy it and make cushion covers, etc. Mostly though I indulge my passion for retro jewellery. 19302, 40s, 50s clip-on earrings. Proper glass beads.

    It’s a tiny place, but you could get lost for hours.

  146. 646
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    SC, did you see my @96?

  147. 647
    betelgeux

    Big thanks, Cipher!

  148. 648
    Inaji

    So how possible is it that a raven came from the north?

    Broboxely! *hugs* You’re in MN, right? The Common Raven (Corvus Corax) do inhabit MN along with other areas. I know we get them here in ND.

  149. 649
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    You’re hilarious.

    Jesus Christ, I thought you were leaving.

  150. 650
    Cipher

    RahXephon, over in the “Make him fly, Mother!” thread, Esteleth posted an argument that she had also posted in PET, the Facebook group for the Endless Thread, and mentioned that. SC objects to the existence of said Facebook group, on the grounds that (she argues) the existence of a private, exclusive group having conversations parallel to the ones going on on this blog, which affect the conversations on this blog, is undemocratic. A lot of people, including me, don’t understand why it’s undemocratic, especially why it’s undemocratic in a way that simply having private friendships is not. We have explained that on PET, we rarely talk about Pharyngula, and instead we mostly talk about the details of our personal lives and other social, chatty topics. A lot of people have posted saying that they are confused about what SC is arguing and why. The conversation has mostly degenerated to insults and irritated sniping on a variety of topics, and very little has been clarified.

  151. 651
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Sorry all, still learning the ropes here. I will be for a long time.

  152. 652
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    thunk,
    Hey, it’s okay. No need to apologize.

  153. 653
    ibyea

    @Cipher
    Yeah, it is pretty weird. At least she could have told us the why to her objections, and we could have responded properly. Besides, people don’t just hang out with one group. People hang out with various groups. What is undemocratic about that?

  154. 654
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Cipher

    …huh.

    Well, thanks muchly for the summary. I’ve been reading more of that thread and I’m starting to see that.

    So…how is it that a group that is far more public than private conversations is worse than those private conversations? I’m not seeing the logic.

  155. 655
    MikeG

    OK, where did the knitters learn their knitting skills? I don’t have anyone in the family who knits, nor are there any good yarn stores in the area, that I know of. I have the dummies book, but it didn’t even tell me that I have to move the yarn to the back to switch stitches. All I have found is a few YouTube vids.
    I have a practice scarf thing made of several of the basic stitches, and i’ve made a few hats with a k3p3. I could really use a more interactive bit of instruction. Is there a knitter signal I can light?

  156. 656
    RichardAustin

    There isn’t a parallel Pharyngula. PZ isn’t making blog posts there that people here can’t see; I don’t think I’ve ever seen him comment on a wall article at all, to be honest. Topics discussed here are very rarely discussed there, because the two serve different purposes.

    TET has evolved, out of the Pharyngula community, its own feel and nature. It doesn’t have a topic, but it still has certain features. PET has its own features, many of which are exactly dependent upon that thing that some people may dislike: its privacy. PET’s focus tends to be mostly on individual, personal experience and concerns: even atheist or skeptical topics are covered with a far more personal note, and the feel there is much less confrontational than here because of that. People in PET are more exposed, emotionally and socially, and so the feel is entierly different than TET.

    That doesn’t mean TET is bad. TET is simply different. As has long been stated, different platforms appeal to different people. Some of us like both and participate in both. We all know there are “regulars” on Pharyngula who stay out of TET because they don’t feel comfortable here. There are people who leave and people who join. There are other forums that share some members but have totally different feels to them. PET is just another forum.

    Another aspect is that a lot of PET ends up being defending and supporting other PET members against family and friends on FB itself: the same way folks here might rally to attack a post on another blog, the PET group often provides personal support for people who feel they’re under attack by their own families and friends. That can’t happen in a place like TET without revealing information most people don’t want revealed, and it’s vital to the mental health of many of the members: knowing there are real people who will go to bat for you can be enough of a crutch to help you fight back harder, stronger, and more successfully against bigotry and discrimination and stupidity.

    Anyway, that’s just my perspective. I’m not sure why any of that would be objectionable except for the privacy aspect, and as I said, that’s intrinsic for reasons that have nothing to do with subversion or plutocracy. If people are still uncomfortable with it, well, sorry, there’s nothing that can be done about it: they (and we) will just have to accept that discomfort.

  157. 657
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Your post seems really condescending, since you know you totally grew out of this and I’m being all juvenile.

    I stated it misleadingly, and didn’t really need to relate it to myself anyway. But I didn’t mean to imply that I grew out of doing it ever. I mean I developed the ability to not do it sometimes, when I am not distracted or highly stressed. I still do it. And of course everybody commits the fundamental attribution error sometimes too. You appear to be lapsing into either:

    1) “I don’t understand why this was said, and the only explanation I can imagine is that it was to cause drama, therefore it was to cause drama” or,

    2) the FAE: “I don’t understand why this was said, but SC is the kind of person who causes drama, therefore it was done to cause drama”.

    Those are both easy and common cognitive errors. By relating the first to my own experience, I unwittingly spoke condescendingly. I’m sorry about that.

    I just said [Really? Linking to MLK Jr? Wow.Just. Wow]. She responding that somehow I was ad homing her.

    Since it wasn’t a response to the substance of what she said, I’d have to agree that it does appear to be an ad hominem remark (not the ad hominem fallacy, necessarily). You managed to say “wow” pretty condescendingly.

    There still isn’t any clarification on how a MLK JR speech about not accepting racial bias etc is relevant to SC’s hatred of PET.

    Because it’s not about PET. What it was, as shown in context, is a reply to Pteryxx yapping about SC’s state of mind. It was a somewhat shitheaded remark which deserved little recognition.

    There was nothing said about it at all, just the link.

    That’s obviously incorrect. What was said about the link, and in response to Pteryxx’s faux concern, was this:

    “You don’t know me at all. I’m maladjusted, and that’s just fine with me.”

    Pteryxx made a remark about SC’s state of mind. SC responded regarding SC’s state of mind.

    That’s the part that is unfair and kind of weird? So because I said it seemed over the top and dramatic since I clearly don’t understand the point, I’m being unfair and weird?

    Yes, it’s unfair (and a cognitive error) to jump to the conclusion that something is being done for the sake of causing drama when there are other parsimonious explanations which can be imagined.

    And it’s weird to suggest that there’s something wrong with linking to a video of MLK when the person evidently finds it relevant. I do imagine that had she linked to text, you might not have responded like that; the animacy of his rhetoric in action can heighten emotion perhaps more than was intended. I think I understand why you felt it dramatic. But I think you misunderstood her intention at the same time.

  158. 658
    Patricia, OM

    Caine – Noes, the high school students raised money as a class project for a community action project. They then chose to contact the veterans office in my town to find a veteran/widow/orphan in need of a painting project (I guess kids like to paint), my house is really small, so the Service Officer suggested me (yeah!!!) for a first project.

    No matter what the kids do I will be thrilled, if they paint a forrest of penis’s up one side and mermaids down the other it’s cool with me. I’m just busting my tail to make sure everything is set for them to come in and paint away!

  159. 659
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, did you see my @96?

    Yes. Thanks. I really did appreciate it.

    Did you watch my #140?

  160. 660
    ibyea

    @MikeG
    When I was at Mattir’s place, they had this thing that spun the fibers into knitting yarns. It was so cool!

  161. 661
    Inaji

    Patricia:

    Thanks! This painting is a veterans/widows/orphans project being done by the local high school. I am SO lucky to have been chosen. The kids actually raised the money to paint my house themselves!

    Oh wow, how great is that! I’m jealous, I am.

  162. 662
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Mike, I learned to knit as an undergrad. Most of the students at that school knit

    Which book do you have? Some are better than others – I’m a fan of Stich and Bitch.

  163. 663
    Patricia, OM

    Good night sweethearts!

  164. 664
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Bah. Stitch and Bitch.

    SC, I grew up on a cattle farm. You don’t need to educate ME about the sort of stuff that goes on.

    FWIW, I am not vegetarian. I rather cannot be, as I have pernicious anemia and am thus on a medically-commanded high protein diet. Add that to my sensitivity to soy products (like, tofu makes me vomit) and I have few options. I do my best to buy my animal products directly from farmers who I know and vet (no pun intended) as being minimally cruel.

  165. 665
    Inaji

    Patricia:

    No matter what the kids do I will be thrilled, if they paint a forrest of penis’s up one side and mermaids down the other it’s cool with me.

    Hee. Being an artist, I’d probably tell the kids, get one basic coat done, then go berserk and mural the house! I’d love something like that, but I’m a bit strange that way.

  166. 666
    ibyea

    @life
    I think it would have seemed overdramatic even if she would have linked to the text of MLK’s speech.

  167. 667
    Pteryxx

    For what it’s worth, that wasn’t faux concern. I’m really concerned. I don’t know SC very well, and I said as much, but she is acting uncharacteristic of her in my limited experience. It is misrepresenting me to say I’m making shitheaded faux remarks, ॐ.

  168. 668
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    ‘Night, Patricia!

    I would kill to have a house with penises up one side!

  169. 669
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, I grew up on a cattle farm. You don’t need to educate ME about the sort of stuff that goes on.

    I’d expect that it’d be horrifying to you as well, then.

    FWIW, I am not vegetarian. I rather cannot be, as I have pernicious anemia and am thus on a medically-commanded high protein diet. Add that to my sensitivity to soy products (like, tofu makes me vomit) and I have few options.

    Protein is available from numerous plant sources. Google “vegan protein.”

  170. 670
    chigau (違う)

    You’re hilarious.

    It wasn’t a fucking joke.
    How is the line drawn that turkeys and pigs are living things but soybeans and kelp are not?
    “living things” cannot be the criterion.

  171. 671
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    SC, please believe me that I have tried most of the plant sources. I make use of what I can, but – at least for now – eliminating meat from my diet is not feasible.

  172. 672
    ibyea

    @chigau
    I think she may have meant “conscious beings”. A lot of time, people use the word “life” in that context.

  173. 673
    Inaji

    Audley:

    I would kill to have a house with penises up one side!

    :falls over laughing: Boy, would darkchild’s mom ever be popular, too! You’d be one of those cool mums. Prolly not with the other ‘rents, though. :D

  174. 674
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Caine:

    Prolly not with the other ‘rents, though. :D

    Pffffft, other parents. Stuffed shirts, the lot of ‘em!

  175. 675
    MikeG

    Ibyea, I just have to get to rhinebeck, don’t I?

    Esteleth, I have the totally appropriate dummies guide to knitting.

    I’m just a bit frustrated with the whole thing, and that’s not what attracted me to the hobby in the first place. I think I just need to spend more time doing what I know how to do and enjoy the feeling of wool through my fingers rather than bothering with trying to make something complicated. It’s something to get my mind off of the day, not something that my livelihood depends on. Shut up and knit, right? (though a few extra skills wouldn’t be a bad thing.)

  176. 676
    strange gods before me ॐ

    ibyea,

    I think it would have seemed overdramatic even if she would have linked to the text of MLK’s speech.

    Again, I just think that’s weird. I think it is frankly quite strange to expect people not to refer to famous speech when they recall it and find it relevant to the discussion.

    +++++
    pteryxx,

    For what it’s worth, that wasn’t faux concern. I’m really concerned. I don’t know SC very well, and I said as much, but she is acting uncharacteristic of her in my limited experience. It is misrepresenting me to say I’m making shitheaded faux remarks, ॐ.

    Right, just shitheaded then. In the future, you might consider either keeping your very real concern to yourself, or emailing the individual privately. It is inconsiderate to start asking someone about their mental state right in the middle of a public discussion.

  177. 677
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Mike, come to Rhinebeck. I’ll show you the tricks. :)

  178. 678
    Inaji

    Esteleth, people have been down this road with SC many a time. It does not matter what you do, how aware you are of issues, how much of an effort you make to support people who do it right, etc. If you aren’t doing it the way SC thinks is right, you’re fucked up, wrong, and supporting everything she doesn’t like.

    Carry on.

  179. 679
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    How is the line drawn that turkeys and pigs are living things but soybeans and kelp are not?
    “living things” cannot be the criterion.

    Living things that can suffer. Try not to respond in a perversely callous manner.

    ***

    SC, please believe me that I have tried most of the plant sources. I make use of what I can, but – at least for now – eliminating meat from my diet is not feasible.

    I find that very difficult to believe.

  180. 680
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I find that very difficult to believe.

    Why? I am sensitive to soy (find me a food product – veg*an or otherwise – that doesn’t contain soy biproducts and I will GIVE YOU A MEDAL) and I have multiple allergies.

    Not everyone is capable of living an animal product-free life.

  181. 681
    Inaji

    Mike G:

    I’m just a bit frustrated with the whole thing, and that’s not what attracted me to the hobby in the first place.

    Are you sure you’ve thoroughly checked out your resources? I don’t know where you’re located (and you don’t have to say!), but there’s gotta be at least some sort of craft/sewing center somewhere (like Jo-Ann’s), where you could inquire about knitting help. Also, a fair amount of people hold classes or seminars, try searching that in your area. Also check out the local community college if you have one. You’d be surprised by the amount of them that have knitting classes. :)

  182. 682
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Why? I am sensitive to soy

    But look at all of the protein sources!

  183. 683
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Esteleth

    It’s a losing battle. The vegans I’ve known are convinced that no one on earth can actually have a health problem that veganism would make worse.

  184. 684
    strange gods before me ॐ

    It does not matter what you do, how aware you are of issues, how much of an effort you make to support people who do it right, etc.

    That’s true enough, those things do not in fact matter.

    If you aren’t doing it the way SC thinks is right, you’re fucked up, wrong,

    Possible.

    and supporting everything she doesn’t like.

    This appears to be deliberate hyperbole on your part, Caine. I’m not aware of any documented cognitive errors which could make you actually believe this.

  185. 685
    strange gods before me ॐ

    It’s a losing battle. The vegans I’ve known are convinced that no one on earth can actually have a health problem that veganism would make worse.

    I don’t believe that it’s impossible. It is clear that most people who say this are wrong about themselves, though. The Bayesian thing to do is expect that the speaker has sort of tried a few things which didn’t go over well so they gave up without exhausting the possibilities.

  186. 686
    ibyea

    @life
    By SC’s standards, she is a fucked up person for using a computer, which has semiconducting materials that have been mined by exploiting other human beings.

    Esteleth, unlike me, tried. You can call me a fucked up person in terms of the meat issue (and unfortunately, meat is way too dominant in my diet), but I don’t think you can call Esteleth that.

  187. 687
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    SC, I cannot have more than a tiny amount of soy. If something is processed and contains soy, I cannot eat it. I get what is essentially food poisoning.

    Oh, and I am allergic to almonds.

    Find me a vegetarian protein extract that contains NEITHER SOY NOR ALMONDS. Like, NONE. Not “only a little bit,” NONE.

    Oh – and I can’t have anything that comes from the ocean because of the salt. So no fish (not veg*an, I know), no seaweed. No kelp.

    Certain food colorings are forbidden.

    That leaves me, essentially, with beans, peanuts and lentils as protein sources. And as I said – these cannot contain any soy or almonds, and cannot be heavily salted.

    I cannot afford, in time or money, to make everything from scratch.

    So, given all of the above – and my anemia – I have essentially no choice. If I had endless time and money, I probably could live a vegetarian life. But I don’t have endless time and money.

  188. 688
    ibyea

    BTW, I don’t really think SC is a fucked up person. Just clarifying.

  189. 689
    John Morales

    Esteleth, I grew up eating garbanzos, among many other legumes.

    They’re very, very cheap.

    (What’s your problem with those?)

  190. 690
  191. 691
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Garbanzo beans? I love them. Eat them all the time.

  192. 692
    strange gods before me ॐ

    By SC’s standards, she is a fucked up person for using a computer, which has semiconducting materials that have been mined by exploiting other human beings.

    Honestly, I don’t recognize this SC you speak of. And I’ve known her for a pretty long time. (“Explaining” SC to me would probably always strike me as off-the-mark, unless perhaps the explanation came from a family member or a much closer friend.)

    I do know her well enough to be familiar with her approach to systemic issues, and that approach is to raise awareness. So she may well point you toward an article on the mining of rare earth elements and try to start a discussion about what could be done to address the problems. If you take that to be a personal condemnation of you, though, that seems to be a sort of Limbaughesque extrapolation.

  193. 693
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    (of course, my point about soy processing stands, so many chickpea-products are verboten)

  194. 694
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Poking around Natural Health News (linked to on page one of this thread) and I find this enraging piece of bullshit:

    Another victim of conventional cancer treatments: Beastie Boys co-founder Adam Yauch dead at 47

    Fuck these people. Using the death of anyone to further your own dangerous agenda is beyond the pale. He would have died sooner without the treatments, assholes.

  195. 695
    strange gods before me ॐ

    So, following up on what I just said,

    Esteleth, unlike me, tried. You can call me a fucked up person in terms of the meat issue (and unfortunately, meat is way too dominant in my diet), but I don’t think you can call Esteleth that.

    Can you show me an example of SC calling Esteleth a fucked up person for eating meat?

  196. 696
    Inaji

    John:

    (What’s your problem with those?)

    Why should Esteleth have to detail or justify her diet to you or anyone else? This is absurd, this placate SC at all costs crap.

  197. 697
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    By SC’s standards, she is a fucked up person for using a computer, which has semiconducting materials that have been mined by exploiting other human beings.

    You’re an idiot.

    ***

    Find me a vegetarian protein extract that contains NEITHER SOY NOR ALMONDS. Like, NONE. Not “only a little bit,” NONE.

    Did you click on my link? For lunch/dinner today, after running, I had spinach and chickpeas with Indian spices over brown rice, from a NYTimes recipe. Every one of the major ingredients is a protein source. There are top endurance athletes who are vegan.

  198. 698
    Inaji

    Audley:

    Fuck these people. Using the death of anyone to further your own dangerous agenda is beyond the pale. He would have died sooner without the treatments, assholes.

    It’s disgusting, to say the least. It’s like I remarked to Robert earlier, I’d love to line these types up in front of a time machine and wave them off to the 14th century. Or earlier. Have fun without modern medicine, folks!

  199. 699
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Caine

    Why should Esteleth have to detail or justify her diet to you or anyone else? This is absurd, this placate SC at all costs crap.

    OMG THANK YOU.

    I get seriously pissed off when I see any form of food policing going on. No one should have to explain or justify what they eat or why to anyone.

    Maybe it’s because I’ve been fat my whole life and I’ve had people policing my eating since day fuckin’ one. I started dieting in elementary school and quickly went off the rails, going from binge eating to extreme restriction. I haven’t had a healthy relationship with food for the majority of my goddamned life because of it.

  200. 700
    chigau (違う)

    There are a bunch (flock? herd?) of bats flying about my back yard!

  201. 701
    ibyea

    @life
    It wasn’t an extrapolation. I always knew my lifestyle was unethical. For some reason, though, I can’t be motivated enough to change. Heck, I tried starting to eat less chocolate because of human slavery, and what do you know. My mind goes like, maybe just this once, and fail.

    Anyways, the point being, I don’t think Esteleth can meet SC’s standards because of her issues. That while SC might be right about other people (and I decided to use me as an example), I don’t think she is right when it comes to her.

  202. 702
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    SC, I did click on the link. Let me break down your cited example: spinach and chickpeas with Indian spices over brown rice.

    Spinach = no problem. Eat it all the time.

    Chickpeas = no problem, if I can get them whole and unprocessed. No chickpea paste.

    Brown rice = no problem. Eat it all the time.

    Indian spices = potentially HUGE problem. What are the ingredients? All of them. How much salt? What kind of salt is it? Is there any food coloring? Were the spices prepared at a facility around almonds and soy?

    That’s the thing – I can’t look at a label, notice the absence of the words “soy” and “almonds” and assume that it is safe. I cannot. Spices and processed things of all sorts are danger zones for me.

  203. 703
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    So she may well point you toward an article on the mining of rare earth elements

    And/or a poem

  204. 704
    broboxley OT

    hey Caine, no, currently I am in north GA and was very surprised to hear my buddy raven here. My daughter gets great props because I “talk” to owls and my wife exerts song birds to reply to her whistles
    note, no whoo involved

  205. 705
    John Morales

    RahXephon:

    I get seriously pissed off when I see any form of food policing going on.

    What about ethical vegetarianism being promoted?

    Maybe it’s because I’ve been fat my whole life and I’ve had people policing my eating since day fuckin’ one.

    This is not about fatness.

    (Disclaimer: I am an omnivore)

  206. 706
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Caine:

    It’s like I remarked to Robert earlier, I’d love to line these types up in front of a time machine and wave them off to the 14th century. Or earlier. Have fun without modern medicine, folks!

    It’s an ideal solution, ‘cos I don’t want their vaccine denying asses around me, so ship ‘em off to where they can’t do any additional harm. (Even though they’re probably all vaccinated, it’s their poor kids that aren’t.)

    Bah, anyway. I’ve taken my pills and now it’s time for bed. I’ll catch you all on the flip side!

  207. 707
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Why should Esteleth have to detail or justify her diet to you or anyone else?

    Food sourcing is a social issue which affects everyone. Necessarily, we are all accountable. Now, I’m not sure where this particular discussion started, whether Esteleth volunteered something earlier about her diet, or what. I don’t like talking about veganism and I shy away from it because I don’t like being yelled at. But I’m seeing incorrect things being said, and that makes my typing fingers twitchy. :\

    I get seriously pissed off when I see any form of food policing going on. No one should have to explain or justify what they eat or why to anyone.

    That’s incorrect, though. When a person causes unnecessary suffering, that is everyone’s business. What you’ve said here is like saying that if some guy likes to blowtorch his own dog, he shouldn’t have to explain or justify that to anyone else.

  208. 708
    ibyea

    @life
    Oops, poorly worded. It was more about your response to someone’s words. I got too stuck on the words of that other person.

  209. 709
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    This is not about fatness.

    No, it’s about food policing, and having been food policed due to my weight is why I detest food policing so damn much. I know you better than to think you don’t understand that.

  210. 710
    Inaji

    RahXephon:

    I haven’t had a healthy relationship with food for the majority of my goddamned life because of it.

    I’m sorry to hear that, it’s very difficult to overcome that sort psychological trauma, especially when it continues your whole life, thanks to some very fucked up societal ideals.

    I empathize with Esteleth, at least to a degree, as I get nagged by my doctor to eat more meat (I have specific health issues in that regard, too.) For what it’s worth, we do everything we can, we support farms that do grassfed beef, they don’t ship to cattle lots, they don’t deal with agribusiness, they don’t wean early, they practice humane slaughtering, etc. We’ve been to these farms, we know who we’re dealing with and so on. We get our chicken from the Hutterites, we get local, free range eggs, yada, yada, yada.

    Still, it’s never good enough. Fuck that noise with spikes on.

  211. 711
    strange gods before me ॐ

    ibyea,

    It wasn’t an extrapolation. I always knew my lifestyle was unethical. For some reason, though, I can’t be motivated enough to change

    I can relate. I too do things which I believe to be unethical. What I meant was the Limbaughesque extrapolation, though, is going from “this is a bad thing” to “you are a bad person”. I don’t think that holds (and I think that’s a real ontological problem; I don’t think my only reason for saying it doesn’t hold is because I simultaneously know I do unethical things while not thinking I’m a bad person)

    and I don’t think the extrapolation was demonstrated in this case. I don’t see any example of SC calling Esteleth a fucked up person.

  212. 712
    ibyea

    @life
    Except Esteleth already said that her issues with allergies won’t allow her. So how many explanations does SC need until she understands Esteleth can’t do it, and act all judgmental because of it?

  213. 713
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, I did click on the link. Let me break down your cited example: spinach and chickpeas with Indian spices over brown rice.

    Spinach = no problem. Eat it all the time.

    Chickpeas = no problem, if I can get them whole and unprocessed. No chickpea paste.

    Brown rice = no problem. Eat it all the time.

    So there you go. Three protein sources.

    Indian spices = potentially HUGE problem. What are the ingredients? All of them. How much salt? What kind of salt is it? Is there any food coloring? Were the spices prepared at a facility around almonds and soy?

    That’s the thing – I can’t look at a label, notice the absence of the words “soy” and “almonds” and assume that it is safe. I cannot. Spices and processed things of all sorts are danger zones for me.

    What? I cooked it, and have enough for a few more meals. The spices are 1 tsp each cumin, cardamom, and coriander. You sautee onions and garlic with those and then add coconut milk and the spinach (this time I threw in a bit of salt). There was no label. But this particular recipe isn’t the point. You don’t need the spices (and can grind them yourself if you so desire).

  214. 714
    Inaji

    Broboxely:

    hey Caine, no, currently I am in north GA and was very surprised to hear my buddy raven here.

    You should be! Looks like you got an uncommon visit:

    The Common Raven occurs in the western United States, the Appalachians in the east, and throughout most of Canada all year. In Georgia it is uncommon, but it is sometimes seen in the northeastern parts of the state.

    Nice for you. :D

  215. 715
    Cipher

    This appears to be deliberate hyperbole on your part, Caine. I’m not aware of any documented cognitive errors which could make you actually believe this.

    I think it arises pretty naturally from SC’s comment that if J_A_L wanted to spite her by joining PET, she (J_A_L) might as well also eat a steak and take some Prozac.

    I think the fact that SC is arguing with Esteleth about her own health is fairly shitty and I think everyone who is attempting to make Esteleth justify eating meat should lay off.

    Cards on the table: I also am extremely irritated by this particular conversation at this particular moment. I have a very difficult time convincing myself to make and eat food at all when I am under stress, as people may be aware, and it’s gotten worse lately. I am trying my level best to keep shame and guilt out of the mix as much as possible. This has resulted in me spending more money than usual on food and buying more unhealthy and easy-to-make food because I am trying to have as many readily accessible choices as possible in case I do decide to eat. Even so I have repeatedly just decided not to eat dinner because it was too much effort and I temporarily irrationally hate all food. I have also given up halfway through meals while still actively hungry because I suddenly can’t handle the texture of what I’m eating. I recognize that it is probably a good idea for me to try to just not read while we’re on this topic, but I also figure that I may not be the only one in a similar unhealthy-relationship-to-food-related situation.

    TLDR: While food sourcing is indeed a social issue, there are other issues at play in people’s choices about it, and in that context I don’t think it’s necessarily clear-cut that it’s justified to argue with any particular individual about his or her eating habits.

    Regarding what pteryxx said, I know that this is emphatically not the same situation as is at play here, but I feel that sgbm made an overly sweeping statement about what is considerate and inconsiderate. For the record, I would much prefer it if the people here who know me and my mental health issues let me know if they’re concerned that I’m displaying obvious signs of getting worse, if I don’t seem to be aware of it. Even if they don’t have my email (which most people here don’t).

  216. 716
    ibyea

    @life
    I explain the extrapolation in comment 208. It was a mistake of mine.

  217. 717
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I empathize with Esteleth, at least to a degree, as I get nagged by my doctor to eat more meat

    That is seriously fucked up.

  218. 718
    Inaji

    Cipher, excellent post and I’m sorry to hear you’re being stressed about food again. It’s a highly difficult problem of life for a lot of people.

    With that, I’ll join Audley. I’m out of here anyway, at least until the mutual fapping party between SG and SC is gone from the lounge. I am past sick to death of SC’s little “it’s all about me!” party, and this is far from the first time SG and SC have teamed up to increase the ratio of shit.

  219. 719
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Okay, SC, in that particular case, that meal looks safe for me.

    But, two things:

    1) I cannot live on one meal alone, I need variety.

    2) Preparing that meal, as described, requires me to have a safe source for all the ingredients – not necessarily a given – and time to prepare it.

    Oh, and this:

    and can grind them yourself if you so desire

    Is kinda my point. To grind my own spices, I need a source of raw spices that I can afford, which is not a given.

    Please, I’m tired of trying to justify these things. I have actually thought about this stuff. As of right now, whatever my wishes to the contrary, I cannot escape my need to eat meat. I do my best to get ethically sourced meat, and that – for now – is the best that I can do.

  220. 720
    strange gods before me ॐ

    So how many explanations does SC need until she understands Esteleth can’t do it, and act all judgmental because of it?

    1) I don’t see this alleged judgment of Esteleth. Can you quote it for me?

    2) As long as Esteleth makes statements directed to SC, SC can fairly respond. So if Esteleth makes a substantive statement about soy and almonds, for instance, SC may have a sensible counterexample about spinach and chickpeas.

    It is not in fact demonstrated that Esteleth can’t do it until there are no more counterexamples. However, the dialogue will probably end before then.

  221. 721
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    But, two things:

    1) I cannot live on one meal alone, I need variety.

    2) Preparing that meal, as described, requires me to have a safe source for all the ingredients – not necessarily a given – and time to prepare it.

    FFS, the link I provided lists numerous plant sources of protein, all of which can be prepared in an infinite variety of ways. You can look for excuses to keep animals in your diet all you want, but this one won’t fly.

  222. 722
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    1) I don’t see this alleged judgment of Esteleth. Can you quote it for me?

    You mean like this?

    You can look for excuses to keep animals in your diet all you want, but this one won’t fly.

    Yeah, that’s not judgmental at all.

    It’s extra special that SC said that right after you, by the way.

  223. 723
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    SC, there are four things that I would need to live an animal-free diet:

    1) Time to source and prepare food.

    2) Energy to source and prepare food.

    3) Money to pay for the food products.

    4) Access to vendors of the food products.

    All four of these things are in short supply. I am not offering this as an excuse. I freely admit that, had I enough time, energy, and money, and appropriate access, I could live an animal-free life. But, my point is that I do not.

  224. 724
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Cipher,

    I think it arises pretty naturally from SC’s comment that if J_A_L wanted to spite her by joining PET, she (J_A_L) might as well also eat a steak and take some Prozac.

    Ah. I see; that might be where it came from. But that arises from JAL’s silly comment about wanting to spite SC. Thus here are these other things to do which would spite SC further. Offering those isn’t the same as an accusation of “supporting everything she doesn’t like.” Still hyperbole, but I grasp the thread now.

    Regarding what pteryxx said, I know that this is emphatically not the same situation as is at play here

    Definitely not. And of course it’s not inconsiderate to follow someone’s stated instructions, like you just gave. Nor, I think, is it unacceptable to ask the person if they have a private way to contact them.

    But in the absence of stated instructions like yours, it is inconsiderate to blurt out something like “I’m getting worried about your state of mind” in the middle of a public discussion. It’s just as impolite as saying to someone, in a crowded room, “you seem to have put on some weight; I’m genuinely concerned about your physical health.”

  225. 725
    ibyea

    @life
    No amount of example is going to convince SC, in case you haven’t noticed. Also, you don’t notice SC’s judgmentalness? What is she doing, then, by questioning Esteleth all of these things then? It’s called reading between the lines. It is obvious what SC is doing. By doing these things, she is pretty much telling Esteleth that she hasn’t tried hard enough. And by SC’s standards, Esteleth can never try hard enough. And since she hasn’t tried hard enough, SC of course keeps acting like an asshole. And if you don’t understand why SC is being assholish here, I suggest you get some human interaction.

  226. 726
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, there are four things that I would need to live an animal-free diet:

    1) Time to source and prepare food.

    2) Energy to source and prepare food.

    3) Money to pay for the food products.

    4) Access to vendors of the food products.

    All four of these things are in short supply.

    Those are things you need for any diet. Frankly, the claim that you lack access to the foods at my link is bullshit. They’re readily avaliable and cheap, and often require little preparation, and you’ve acknowledged that you eat them all the time. (Corn and nonhuman animals are subsidized, but that’s a social problem. Regardless, high-protein foods are inexpensive and readily available.)

  227. 727
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    SC, out of curiosity, is there a reason you are insisting that I can’t possibly have thought about this, tried, and concluded that I cannot live a vegetarian life?

  228. 728
    Cipher

    But in the absence of stated instructions like yours, it is inconsiderate to blurt out something like “I’m getting worried about your state of mind” in the middle of a public discussion. It’s just as impolite as saying to someone, in a crowded room, “you seem to have put on some weight; I’m genuinely concerned about your physical health.”

    I see what you mean. The comparison helped.

  229. 729
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, out of curiosity, is there a reason you are insisting that I can’t possibly have thought about this, tried, and concluded that I cannot live a vegetarian life?

    I haven’t claimed that. The reasons you’ve given here for why you must consume animal products, though, don’t hold water. It often happens that people just don’t know about the possibilities. That was the case with me for a long time – I thought the same thing.

    When you take animals into consideration, it becomes urgent to find a way to make it work. I don’t think it’s always easy, though it has been for me (and fun, surprising given my love of cheese).

  230. 730
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    The Kindle Ultimate Vegan Guide, by the way, is available for 99 cents.

  231. 731
    ibyea

    @SC
    Clue: It has been easy for YOU.

  232. 732
    strange gods before me ॐ

    RahXephon,

    You mean like this?

    You can look for excuses to keep animals in your diet all you want, but this one won’t fly.

    Yeah, that’s not judgmental at all.

    Hm. The mention of the word “excuses” can plausibly be seen as judgmental, I suppose.

    It’s extra special that SC said that right after you, by the way.

    Not sure quite what you’re intrigued by there; it seems less clever than you appear to think. It might have been “extra special” had it been said long before I asked, but in fact, prior to my question, I still see zero evidence of judgment.

    +++++
    ibyea,

    No amount of example is going to convince SC, in case you haven’t noticed.

    I haven’t noticed because your claim is not demonstrated; you are jumping to a conclusion. I’m guessing that if SC were to exhaust all her counterexamples, she would be something like convinced. Lots of people work that way. We’d have to wait and see what happens at that time; some people fall back on moral dumbfounding, but I have no reason to expect that SC would.

    Also, you don’t notice SC’s judgmentalness?

    No, I don’t.

    What is she doing, then, by questioning Esteleth all of these things then?

    She is responding to claims being made by Esteleth. I think she does not want to see those claims go unanswered. It is perhaps a habit that those of us who’ve been frequently compared with truth machine share.

    It’s called reading between the lines. It is obvious what SC is doing.

    Something else is apparent to me; so I’d have to dispute that your claim is obvious.

    By doing these things, she is pretty much telling Esteleth that she hasn’t tried hard enough.

    Fair enough; that is plausibly a second-order effect of SC’s argument.

    And by SC’s standards, Esteleth can never try hard enough.

    Again, not in evidence.

    And since she hasn’t tried hard enough, SC of course keeps acting like an asshole. And if you don’t understand why SC is being assholish here, I suggest you get some human interaction.

    I suggest you go fuck yourself :)

  233. 733
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    For the record, spending Friday night at the ER sucks.

    (No, no one is seriously hurt, Mr. Rawnaeris is having another kidney stone.)

  234. 734
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Clue: It has been easy for YOU.

    Which is exactly what I said. I don’t think it’s easy for everyone, but I think it’s possible for everyone, and fun for many.* Even if it were hard for me, I would do it, because the alternative is causing a lot of unnecessary suffering.

    *I’m writing right now about the superficial consumerist orientation of this discussion of ease/difficulty, which I think demonstrates our alienation from other living beings.

  235. 735
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    SC, quite frankly, I did try to eat vegetarian.

    Unfortunately, it did not work.

    My issues are multiple. Between the allergies, the anemia, and the fact that I take tumor-suppressing drugs (which come with their own list of things I’m forbidden from having AND which mess with my ability to tase and my appetite), I’m already severely restricted.

    Add to that the fact that I do not know how to cook many of the vegetarian staples (like, I have no clue how to cook lentils, what they’re good with, etc), and I’m severely in a box. Yes, I could learn – I’m doing my best to learn – but that is something else that is a time/effort/access outlay.

    I’m glad that it was easy for you. It was not easy for me.

    I am content with myself. I am content that the meat – and cheese, and eggs, and milk – I buy is from ethical famers who treat their animals properly. It helps that I don’t see killing a domesticated animal for food as inherently bad, but a something that can be done humanely.

  236. 736
    strange gods before me ॐ

    ibyea,

    And if you don’t understand why SC is being assholish here, I suggest you get some human interaction.

    I suggest you go fuck yourself :)

    To expand upon this: these kinds of statements implicitly assume that pretty much everybody who acts in a way that reminds you of someone else has the same reasons for acting as they do. This is, however, not an assumption which is tenable given the range of human interaction I have had, nor, I suspect, given the range you’ve had.

    Individuals have a hard enough time understanding why they themselves act a certain way, and that’s with the benefit of an unparalleled amount of insight.

  237. 737
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    @Life

    Obviously you and I disagree on what is and is not judgmental. That’s fine; I can live with the disagreement. I’m not interested in this becoming antagonistic or anything, and I apologize for any rudeness on my part.

  238. 738
    Ichthyic

    OK, now this is so side-splitting nuts, you can’t help but laugh.

    just remember:

    DON’T GO GAY

    …it isn’t healthy!

    seriously, watch it. she’s bugfuck nutz, and they just let her drone on and on and on…

  239. 739
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    In other news, it is 3:30 AM and I am FUCKING EXHAUSTED.

    Bedtime!

  240. 740
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I did try to eat vegetarian… I’m doing my best to learn…

    I am content with myself.

    These are contradictory. They suggest that the statements that follow are bullshit. (They also suggest that you care deeply about the animals.)

    I am content that the meat – and cheese, and eggs, and milk – I buy is from ethical famers who treat their animals properly. It helps that I don’t see killing a domesticated animal for food as inherently bad, but a something that can be done humanely.

    Yeah, bullshit.

  241. 741
    Ichthyic

    … watch the guy behind her.

    I think he may have hurt himself with too many facepalms.

  242. 742
    Ichthyic

    Yeah, bullshit.

    SC, you can rationalize why you chose to go vegan.

    you can’t rationalize that for anyone else.

    sorry.

  243. 743
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, you can rationalize why you chose to go vegan.

    My rationale should be obvious at this point.

    you can’t rationalize that for anyone else.

    sorry.

    It’s the same rationale for everyone: our fellow animals shouldn’t have to suffer and die unnecessarily for us to eat them.

    Dawkins (kind of) gets it, though he’s not up to acting ethically, sadly.

  244. 744
    strange gods before me ॐ

    RahXephon, as I hope I indicated with ‘the mention of the word “excuses” can plausibly be seen as judgmental’, I think that I have some understanding of what you regard as judgmental. You’re right, we do disagree, though. I do know from experience that SC prefers changing ideas over assigning blame, though from that I can’t trivially say exactly what she’s doing at any moment. It can be helpful to ask her.

  245. 745
    Ichthyic

    It’s the same rationale for everyone:

    no, you were wrong about that before, and you still are.

  246. 746
    Ichthyic

    I do know from experience that SC prefers changing ideas over assigning blame,

    actually, IMO she’s gotten MORE judgmental over the years, not less.

    *shrug*

    I rarely pay attention to the dramas created here any more.

  247. 747
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ichthyic,

    actually, IMO she’s gotten MORE judgmental over the years, not less.

    Given your continued inability to understand Walton, despite the fact that he discloses more of his thought processes than almost anyone here, I am unable to take seriously your evaluation of anyone but yourself.

  248. 748
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    no, you were wrong about that before, and you still are.

    Make an argument.

  249. 749
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    actually, IMO she’s gotten MORE judgmental over the years, not less.

    You have a lot of nerve, Ichthyic. Like, seriously, a fuckton of nerve. I’m speechless at the amount of nerve.

  250. 750
    Krasnaya Koshka

    Мертвый бог, SC is again going on about eating animals. Как моя первая подруга.

    I read recently in Moscow Times that Russia is continuing its block against American meat. Has even amped it up to NO meat from America. (Before it was only chicken, because of the ammonia content.)

    I was a strict vegetarian for most of my life. I’m now a mostly-vegetarian. But who the fuck cares? My energy will be pointed toward women being treated equally. That’s more important to me, in my lifetime. Yes, I am speciest.

    Esteleth, you don’t have to justify your eating habits. Criminy. I’m sure you have better things to worry about.

  251. 751
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    A horrible, horrible article.

    What got me was not so much the defense of Rogers as this:

    Nor do I think that anyone saying that demand-side economics is more reasonable than supply-side economics, as several commenters suggest. The reality is, there isn’t really much conclusive evidence either way. There are economic policies that work and economic policies that don’t work. So the whole her-economic-ideas-aren’t-reasonable thing is, well, unreasonable.

    Anyone want to help me bring this idiot back to reality? So far I’ve got indenturing students to the banks with loans, predatory lending practices, bankruptcy due to healthcare costs, job loss due to outsourcing, disproportionate increases in resource prices due to speculation, increasing income inequality, and the fact that “supply side” policies are almost exclusively corporate/1% handouts at the expense of services for everyone else…

    It’s the same rationale for everyone: our fellow animals shouldn’t have to suffer and die unnecessarily for us to eat them.

    Non sequitur. You can only buy from sources that use ethical practices in procuring their products, and if killing — which can be done without suffering — squicks you out that badly then just don’t eat meat.

    Your argument is like not eating chocolate or drinking coffee because of abusive practices in the industry, and complaining at those of us who still do even if we’re buying Fair Trade.

  252. 752
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Как моя первая подруга.

    It’s vaguely creepy that you’re going on about that.

    My energy will be pointed toward women being treated equally. That’s more important to me, in my lifetime. Yes, I am speciest.

    Try to see the logic here:

    Dear god, SC is again going on about Honduras. My energy will be pointed toward Americans being treated equally. That’s more important to me, in my lifetime. Yes, I am chauvinist.

    (For the record, that’s how it happens to be, it turns out I evidently am an American chauvinist. But) should that be how I think and act? And is it really true that I could not find any time for Honduras if I wanted to?

    You’re implicitly posing the “burning house” question, “should you save the child or the dog first?” In that hypothetical scenario, the answer is clearly the child.

    But it’s only a very contrived thought experiment. In our day to day lives it’s not clear that the house is burning. It is, well, very doubtful that anyone spends so much time working on women’s rights that they can’t eat vegan. It’s actually difficult to imagine how that could happen, unless they are spending so much time on women’s rights that they can’t eat at all, and won’t be long for this world.

  253. 753
    rorschach

    *sticks head into thread and has a look around*

    *leaves in a hurry to watch Funniest Home Videos*

  254. 754
    strange gods before me ॐ

    You can only buy from sources that use ethical practices in procuring their products,

    That’s a fantasy, and certainly not an answer for a world population that is 7 billion and growing.

    and if killing — which can be done without suffering

    But isn’t.

    And note this isn’t actually an objection to what she said, since she also included dying unnecessarily.

    Your argument is like not eating chocolate or drinking coffee because of abusive practices in the industry, and complaining at those of us who still do even if we’re buying Fair Trade.

    If “Fair Trade” involved killing people, this might be be a meaningful analogy.

    Not as an analogy, but really about coffee and such: there are problems with “Fair Trade” that still need to be fixed, and when talking about them, some people are going to call that “complaining at us”. Would you propose that means those problems shouldn’t be talked about?

    (The analogy might not great because the answer to problems with “Fair Trade” groups isn’t necessarily to stop buying from them. I do not know; that’s beyond my ken.)

  255. 755
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    rorschach #253:

    *leaves in a hurry to watch Funniest Home Videos*

    *pushes you back in* No you don’t. You’re staying here and helping me debunk pro-austerity “centrism” damn it.

    …no, seriously, anyone got any good resources that focus on political skepticism, specifically austerity skepticism? I love Krugman and DeLong, but would prefer something less technical than DeLong (no, I haven’t read all of his introduction to macro lectures yet…bad me) that isn’t going to be stuck behind a paywall for a month after I read ten articles.

    Podcasts would be nice, since I’m in more of a listening than a reading mood right now.

  256. 756
    strange gods before me ॐ

    There’s at least one more problem with your argument, Setar:

    if killing squicks you out that badly then just don’t eat meat.

    And if your neighbor blowtorching his dog squicks you out that badly then just don’t blowtorch your dog.

    Is that an answer?

    (You do know that the “squick” part is a strawman, right? Like a lot of mass media consumers, violence just keeps my attention. It’s often a misunderstanding to think that any given moral issue is equivalent to visceral distaste.)

  257. 757
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Okay, I’m going to drop the overall argument surrounding veganism — but I will say that I can’t really be a vegan, because what I can and can’t eat is ridiculously limited by my sense of taste. Basically, I either like it or I don’t, the list of things I don’t like is infinitely longer than the list of things I do, and if I don’t like it I will literally be choking it down no matter what it is.

    I expect sgbm to respect this. SC, if you wish to complain, save us both the trouble and just punch yourself in the face so I don’t have to find you and do it myself. I am sick of people patronizing and condescending to me because I don’t have a Super Titanium Olfactory System™.

    Not as an analogy, but really about coffee and such: there are problems with “Fair Trade” that still need to be fixed, and when talking about them, some people are going to call that “complaining at us”. Would you propose that means those problems shouldn’t be talked about?

    Indeed. Also, we shouldn’t complain about Obama being to the right of Reagan — that would just hand the election to the Republicans. You don’t want that, now do you?!??

  258. 758
    Krasnaya Koshka

    #252 – life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ

    Yeah, I’ve read all of the archives and you’ve never made sense. How to make sense of the nonsensical. Hm.

    Women are equal to animals? That’s what you’re saying? How is Honduras and America equal to animals and women?

    I will focus my attention on WOMEN before animals. It’s not Honduras v. U.S.A. What a stupid comment.

    But I know better than to engage with you.

    And my first gf was also vehemently against eating animals. How is that creepy? She’s still my friend and we laugh about it. Does your first gf laugh with you, too?

  259. 759
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    (You do know that the “squick” part is a strawman, right? Like a lot of mass media consumers, violence just keeps my attention. It’s often a misunderstanding to think that any given moral issue is equivalent to visceral distaste.)

    It is meant to highlight the use of “killing!!!!” as some sort of end-all moral argument. That being said, the usage was poor (but as I said in my last comment I’m dropping out of this particular debate) and is probably best kept to the abortion debate where it really highlights anti-choicers/faux-pro-choicers’ hangup over the fact that YOU’RE KILLING THE FETUS!!!!!!eleventy-one!

  260. 760
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    It is, well, very doubtful that anyone spends so much time working on women’s rights that they can’t eat vegan.

    Or that they’re not related.

  261. 761
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Krasnaya Koshka #258, you have not addressed the argument made, merely called it stupid and dismissed it. Please address it.

  262. 762
    SallyStrange

    Why SHOULDN’T animals die so I can eat them? They have to die one way or another, just like me. They die to fertilize the soil so that the plants I like to eat can grow. They die so that other animals can eat. I don’t see the ethical objection to killing animals for food. Suffering, torture, yes. That’s bad. But dying? Nope.

    Veganism, pah. It works if you’re wealthy or if you live in the tropics. Most of us aren’t wealthy and don’t live in the tropics.

  263. 763
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Why SHOULDN’T animals die so I can eat them? They have to die one way or another, just like me.

    So we’ll be coming to torture, kill, and eat you.

    Veganism, pah. It works if you’re wealthy or if you live in the tropics. Most of us aren’t wealthy and don’t live in the tropics.

    That’s ignorant. Seriously – you’re ingorant. Why not try to educate yourself before speaking further on the subject?

  264. 764
    rorschach

    Why SHOULDN’T animals die so I can eat them? They have to die one way or another, just like me.

    Personally, I draw the line at raw or medium raw. Steak, that is. I mean, that’s just wrong, chewing on more or less raw animal muscle. But well done with some herb and garlic butter and a nice Pinot Noir, different story. Some prawns and cheese on top, divine ! Just as I personally wouldn’t like to be eaten raw myself, but killed, chopped up and cooked through, I guess I’d feed some family for a while.

    Although I have to say I also know some great Lentil recipes, if anyone is interested.

    And yeah, it’s been a tough day.

  265. 765
    John Morales

    SallyStrange:

    It works if you’re wealthy …

    Cheaper than fast food, non-animal products are, never mind good animal food.

    (How much do you imagine a pound of chick peas or lentils cost? How much food do you imagine it yields after preparation?)

    Esteleth,

    (like, I have no clue how to cook lentils, what they’re good with, etc)

    Like most legumes and pulses, they are normally soaked in cold water first; then, imagine you’re stewing them.

    (You might want to look up daal — healthy and delicious)

  266. 766
    AshPlant

    So we’ll be coming to torture, kill, and eat you.

    Naw, don’t bother, she’s a meat-eater. Vegans taste better.

  267. 767
    John Morales

    [factoid]

    The faeces of meat-eaters stink, compared to the faeces of vegetarians.

    (No, this is no argument for or against anything, merely a statement)

  268. 768
    AshPlant

    (like, I have no clue how to cook lentils, what they’re good with, etc)

    As well as what John said, there are worse things to use as a replacement for beef mince; in bolognese for example, or chili.

  269. 769
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    So we’ll be coming to torture, kill, and eat you.

    Suffering, torture, yes. That’s bad. But dying? Nope.

    Nice strawman, SC. Pity you had to set it on fire like that.

  270. 770
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Setar,

    I expect sgbm to respect this. SC, if you wish to complain, save us both the trouble and just punch yourself in the face so I don’t have to find you and do it myself.

    As you know, I never respected you in the first place, but if I had, making threats of violence against another commenter would diminish you in my eyes.

    I expect it will in the eyes of anyone else who might have ever respected you a bit by default.

    Indeed. Also, we shouldn’t complain about Obama being to the right of Reagan — that would just hand the election to the Republicans. You don’t want that, now do you?!??

    I wouldn’t. (I’m not sure about the premise, but whatever, for the sake of discussion.) Now, are you alleging that there is a probable bad outcome from just talking about problems with “Fair Trade” or “ethically sourced meat”? If you aren’t alleging that, then it’s unclear what your analogy is supposed to imply.

    +++++
    Krasnaya Koshka,

    Yeah, I’ve read all of the archives and you’ve never made sense.

    How then would you account for the times I’ve changed people’s minds?

    (Gratuitous insults like that are not so useful. Too over the top to take seriously.)

    Women are equal to animals? That’s what you’re saying? How is Honduras and America equal to animals and women?

    No, silly. It’s the form of the argument.

    You are saying that one thing is more important to you than the other, and that much is understandable —

    Americans really are more important to me than any other people; I’m not saying this is a good thing; it’s just true

    — now, understanding that I feel this way, is it a legitimate ethical argument for not doing what I can for non-Americans?

    Observe: I already granted that humans are more important than animals. “Save the child first.”

    Of course women are more important than animals. I really think it’s great that you say you take women’s equality seriously. No kidding. But I’d like you to explain how that precludes you from going vegan.

    It is, well, very doubtful that anyone spends so much time working on women’s rights that they can’t eat vegan. It’s actually difficult to imagine how that could happen, unless they are spending so much time on women’s rights that they can’t eat at all, and won’t be long for this world.

    I will focus my attention on WOMEN before animals.

    That’s great. It should be evident that I do the same, since even people who don’t much care for my company — like Caine — will tell you that I take women’s rights seriously, and I talk about veganism maybe twice a year.

    So, like you, I am focusing my attention on women before animals. I can guarantee you SC does the same; she’s got some self-interest in women’s rights. And yet, we also manage to be vegan. This makes me wonder how it can be that you are so much more pro-woman that you don’t have any time left over to be vegan.

    It’s not Honduras v. U.S.A. What a stupid comment.

    I’m rarely happy with my analogies either, but I don’t think it was all that stupid. The analogous form of the two arguments should be apparent.

    But I know better than to engage with you.

    Evidently you don’t.

    And my first gf was also vehemently against eating animals. How is that creepy?

    It sounded like an out-of-the-blue complaint about an ex-girlfriend. It’s sometimes creepy when, out of nowhere, a guy says something like oh my god, Topic A again, my ex-girlfriend used to talk about Topic A all the time.

    She’s still my friend and we laugh about it. Does your first gf laugh with you, too?

    A strange question to ask a gay man. This suggests you really haven’t read much of the archives.

  271. 771
    strange gods before me ॐ

    It is meant to highlight the use of “killing!!!!” as some sort of end-all moral argument.

    Nothing is an end-all moral argument, and of course nobody here has used it as such.

    That being said, the usage was poor (but as I said in my last comment I’m dropping out of this particular debate) and is probably best kept to the abortion debate where it really highlights anti-choicers/faux-pro-choicers’ hangup over the fact that YOU’RE KILLING THE FETUS!!!!!!eleventy-one!

    It’s really not all that effective there either. For abortion, I recommend the violinist argument.

  272. 772
    SallyStrange

    So we’ll be coming to torture, kill, and eat you.

    Torturing me is not okay. If you try to kill me, I’ll resist. If you succeed, feel free to eat me. Just make sure it’s a tasty recipe, okay?

    But that doesn’t answer my question. Yes, I prefer not to be killed. But despite my preferences, I will eventually die somehow. How does that translate into not being able to kill and eat a chicken?

    I’m not ignorant. I’ve thought about veganism and the ethical claims vegans make. I’ve investigated the claims about health and nutrition. The ethical claims, well, if you think that killing animals is intrinsically wrong, then you’d have a point. But I don’t agree that killing animals is intrinsically wrong. As far as nutrition goes, yes, it is possible to live without animal protein, but it’s not optimal for a lot of people, and it’s a lot more work. Both in terms of food preparation by the individual and in terms of outlay of energy for crop cultivation, food processing, and shipping.

    Personally I think that killing animals is far superior, ethically speaking, to burning gallons of oil to import foodstuffs from thousands of miles away. (Yes, yes, factory farms are extra bad, because they impose needless suffering AND burn thousands of barrels of oil. That doesn’t negate my point.) Which is why I say that veganism works if you live in the tropics. If you live in a temperate zone, and you value local agriculture, then animals, their inputs and their outputs, are essential. Whether this implies eating them is debatable. Certainly Hindus have maximized the labor and nutrient output of a cow by refraining from killing it and harvesting its milk and its labor instead. But that’s an argument for vegetarianism, not veganism.

    And yes, I’ve killed animals, helped kill them, and I’ve butchered them. It’s not wonderful, but it’s not like torturing someone, either a person or an animal. So I’m not ignorant about that either. And yes, I know what goes on in factory farms and industrial meat processing plants. That is, without a doubt, horrible. But it doesn’t mean that veganism is the only alternative.

    You want to eat vegan, or vegetarian? Have at it. I cook vegetarian recipes, and I think that most people eat too much meat, both for their own health and for the integrity of the environment. But veganism, well. I try to avoid the subject because I think it’s a bit silly.

    Kind of like your fretting about PET.

  273. 773
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    I wouldn’t. (I’m not sure about the premise, but whatever, for the sake of discussion.) Now, are you alleging that there is a probable bad outcome from just talking about problems with “Fair Trade” or “ethically sourced meat”? If you aren’t alleging that, then it’s unclear what your analogy is supposed to imply.

    Your insistence on grinding your axe about me appears to have blinded you to sarcasm.

    Fuck off. Seriously. I -try- to be a bit accommodating, and you just come out and say ‘sorry, I have an axe to grind about you so you have no right to be mad about constantly being condescended to about how your olfactory sense is ridiculous about what it likes, and I’m going to ignore some pretty blatant sarcasm that was punctuated by a link to an obvious non sequitur.’

  274. 774
    John Morales

    SallyStrange,

    The ethical claims, well, if you think that killing animals is intrinsically wrong, then you’d have a point.

    What about needlessly killing animals?

  275. 775
    rorschach

    She’s still my friend and we laugh about it. Does your first gf laugh with you, too?

    Priceless. In fact, may almost save my day, that one.

    (like, I have no clue how to cook lentils, what they’re good with, etc)

    As well as what John said, there are worse things to use as a replacement for beef mince; in bolognese for example, or chili.

    But surely not lentils ! Bolognese with lentils, how would that ever work ? It’s not Bolognese anymore then, is it ? Don’t get me wrong, I love lentils, just as I love red cabbage. A chili without beef mince however is not difficult, just use different types of beans (Im not into Tofu, but I guess it’s possible to use that) and lots of veggies.

  276. 776
    SallyStrange
    It works if you’re wealthy …

    Cheaper than fast food, non-animal products are, never mind good animal food.

    Time is money. And subsidies have skewed monetary cost away from reflecting the true caloric cost of eating animals. For instance, if I go to the grocery store needing to buy a microwaveable meal to eat during breaks at my job, meals with meat are cheaper than those without.

    It is cheaper, in terms of $$ only, to make some daal for a packed lunch, but that’s not counting the time and energy one must invest if one is changing one’s eating habits dramatically. Learning takes time. Cooking takes time. Information is not as freely available as it ought to be for far too many people.

  277. 777
    strange gods before me ॐ

    SallyStrange,

    It’s good to see you around! :) I hope you’re getting on alright.

    Why SHOULDN’T animals die so I can eat them? They have to die one way or another, just like me.

    You do have to die one way or another, and for the sake of argument let’s say it’ll be totally painless either way. Is it equally preferable for you to die today, rather than several decades from now?

    (If by unfortunate chance you’re depressed enough to say “yes”, let’s consider some other hypothetical person, since we do know there are people who would prefer to live very long lives.)

    So, similarly, if a dog lives a good long life, is that not preferable to a good short life? The longer good life has more good in it, and more good is preferable to less good.

    I don’t see the ethical objection to killing animals for food.

    Did I help any?

    +++++
    rorschach!

    I saw your greeting the other day. Thanks, mate. I missed a lot of news; how is your employment situation?

  278. 778
    rorschach

    I saw your greeting the other day. Thanks, mate. I missed a lot of news; how is your employment situation?

    Hey mate. Still employed, thankfully. Leaving for a 2-week holiday in China tomorrow. Might write a travel diary. Good to see you back.

  279. 779
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Setar,

    Your insistence on grinding your axe about me appears to have blinded you to sarcasm.

    Nah, I just find that weakly-executed sarcasm is more interesting to deal with, uh, straight.

    Fuck off. Seriously. I -try- to be a bit accommodating,

    You just threatened to punch someone in the face. I find that quite unpleasant when it’s not a friend of mine. You got no-fucking-where to stand and complain about me being condescending to you.

  280. 780
    AshPlant

    It’s not Bolognese anymore then, is it?

    Well, not strictly. But you’d be amazed how far the right seasoning goes towards making it taste the same.

    Actually, what I really object to isn’t vegetarian food as such, but meat-replacements. I had them forced on me repeatedly during my childhood with the cheerfully gurning insistence that I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference, and funnily enough I could. The part where the “sausages” were floury and dry and fell apart during cooking was a bit of a give away, as was the “mince” that had the consistency of an eraser. I cook plenty of vegetarian dishes these days, but I use straight-up bloody vegetables to do it. Meat is tasty, easily available, and doesn’t ping my ethical radar in the slightest. Pseudo-meats just strike me as being weird and indecisive.

  281. 781
    John Morales

    SallyStrange, you raise some good points.

    Information is not as freely available as it ought to be for far too many people.

    This one, however, is eminently specious, at least as regards Esteleth.

    (You’re posting this on the Internet!)

  282. 782
    strange gods before me ॐ

    rorschach, that sounds awesome.

    *is jealous*

  283. 783
    NuMad

    I never quite got a handle on gauging the staying power of different perfumes. Other people’s mileage seems to vary a lot. Different skin types factoring in doesn’t help, there.

    I’m never that confident about my own trial and error either, because I can’t reliably tell the difference between a scent that’s stopped working and a scent my nose just got habituated to. I’ve been known to go heavy on the reapplication.

    But I prefer a vanishing perfume to one that goes sour.

  284. 784
    John Morales

    NuMad, to this day acquaintances and (overseas) family members gift me perfumes (supposedly manly perfumes) that are at times quite expensive.

    That I’ve never used any such doesn’t get through to them, but mostly they can be used by my wife.

    (Being an old fart, I remember when such was euphemistically referred to as “aftershave”. Nowadays, I see famous movie stars advertising cosmetics for men, not just perfumes.

    How times change!)

  285. 785
    rorschach

    that sounds awesome.

    You know, never mind the travel as such, I find it more interesting to read up and learn about the places I’m going. Like, there is a second forbidden city in Shenyang, and signs of the Mongol and Japanese rule over China are all over the place. I’m looking forward to learn more about that, although I have to admit that my attempts to learn Mandarin have been a little on the pathetic side so far.

  286. 786
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Yes, I prefer not to be killed. But despite my preferences, I will eventually die somehow. How does that translate into not being able to kill and eat a chicken?

    1) The vast majority of chickens do not die a natural death. They do in fact suffer terribly. *I do not believe you that the chickens you exploit do not suffer in any way, but even if they did (and, again, I can pretty much guarantee that they don’t, but you can investigate for yourself), you don’t need to eat them. 2) You don’t need to end their lives to eat them. They prefer not to be killed.

    I’m not ignorant. I’ve thought about veganism and the ethical claims vegans make.

    Thinking about a subject does not provide you with knowledge about it.

    I’ve investigated the claims about health and nutrition.

    That’s irrelevant.

    The ethical claims, well, if you think that killing animals is intrinsically wrong, then you’d have a point.

    Of course, you’re wrong here, because you have a false notion about the system of animal agriculture. Even if you could find some animals exploited in these ways that they don’t suffer, the number would be miniscule, and by supporting this you’d be supporting the whole system, which involves tremendous suffering. Your claim is hypothetical – the nonsuffering farmed animals are like the deathbed religious grandma and the just-prebirth aborter.

    But I don’t agree that killing animals is intrinsically wrong. As far as nutrition goes, yes, it is possible to live without animal protein, but it’s not optimal for a lot of people, and it’s a lot more work. Both in terms of food preparation by the individual and in terms of outlay of energy for crop cultivation, food processing, and shipping.

    This is false. You’re ignorant.

    Personally I think that killing animals is far superior, ethically speaking, to burning gallons of oil to import foodstuffs from thousands of miles away. (Yes, yes, factory farms are extra bad, because they impose needless suffering AND burn thousands of barrels of oil. That doesn’t negate my point.)

    Yes, it negates your point. These are not the only alternatives. And one involves direct suffering.

    Which is why I say that veganism works if you live in the tropics. If you live in a temperate zone, and you value local agriculture, then animals, their inputs and their outputs, are essential. Whether this implies eating them is debatable.

    Eating plants directly is far superior environmentally to eating other animals who’ve eaten plants. This should be obvious. But neither dietary nor ecological reasons are paramount.

    And yes, I’ve killed animals, helped kill them, and I’ve butchered them. It’s not wonderful, but it’s not like torturing someone, either a person or an animal. So I’m not ignorant about that either.

    You’re ignorant about animal agriculture. That’s not an insult. (And “I’ve hit my wife. I know about spousal abuse” isn’t exactly an argument for it.)

    And yes, I know what goes on in factory farms and industrial meat processing plants. That is, without a doubt, horrible. But it doesn’t mean that veganism is the only alternative.

    It’s the only alternative to causing the suffering of and killing animals for food unnecessarily.

    But let’s start there: The overwhelming majority of animals people eat suffer and die in that system. Given that, you have to make an argument for eating animals raised and/or killed in a different way. This would require showing that they suffer not at all, and that by eating them you’re not helping the system that causes massive suffering. Good luck with that.

  287. 787
    NuMad

    John Morales,

    NuMad, to this day acquaintances and (overseas) family members gift me perfumes (supposedly manly perfumes) that are at times quite expensive.

    That I’ve never used any such doesn’t get through to them, but mostly they can be used by my wife.

    It’s only a little inconsiderate of them, unless those gifts are a way of trying to tell you something. In which case it might be called very rude.

    If the times had changed a little faster, maybe the word-disaster “guyliner” wouldn’t exist.

    (Time for sleep.)

  288. 788
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good morning
    Pretty threadrupt.
    Good thing, it reads quickly if I just skip the latest SC fuck-up.

    Carlie, Pteryxx and opposable thumbs (and whoever else commented on it, did I mention threadrupt?
    Thankx for the wishes and kind words.
    Guess she didn’t get the memo that it’s not working anymore.
    Sure it hurts, but it drives me more away from her than ever. I guess after grandma dies our ways will seperate even more. Should she survive grandma…

    ((((hugs)))) oniongirl

    kristinc
    Wow, that must mean they’re from before 49
    Or did they stamp it like that even after the two Germanies were founded?

  289. 789
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SallyStrange, you raise some good points.

    If you don’t know anything about the subject.

  290. 790
    McCthulhu, now with -25% less fat.

    @rorschach: I hope your trip is awesome. Just remember to take along the meds for the numerous contingent tummy troubles you may encounter.

  291. 791
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Goodnight/morning, all.

    I don’t plan to return, so rejoice or whatever.

  292. 792
    Matt Penfold

    Eating plants directly is far superior environmentally to eating other animals who’ve eaten plants. This should be obvious. But neither dietary nor ecological reasons are paramount.

    This is not strictly true. In same cases it is true, but in other cases it just a fabrication. The mistake you make is to assume that land given over to the grazing of animals, and growing feed for them is land that could otherwise be used to cultivate crops for human consumption. This is not always true, unless you think crops grow well on exposed hillsides with poor thin soils.

  293. 793
    rorschach

    Just remember to take along the meds for the numerous contingent tummy troubles you may encounter.

    I have read about those. I figure sticking to cooked food and bottled water should get me through. The official government travel advice suggests the same. Mind you, you never know these days, I diagnosed Dengue fever in a traveller to Bali the other day.

  294. 794
    strange gods before me ॐ

    You know, never mind the travel as such, I find it more interesting to read up and learn about the places I’m going.

    Hey, then I know how you could save some money ;)

    If you post a travel diary, I promise I’ll skim it and look at the pictures!

  295. 795
    strange gods before me ॐ

    SC, I hope you change your mind about that after a break. But I’ll keep in touch by email.

  296. 796
    'Tis Himself

    SC #291

    I don’t plan to return, so rejoice or whatever.

    Is this a full flounce or a temporary flounce?

  297. 797
    opposablethumbs

    L’Occitane says Eau des Baux is cypress and incense; reviews mention amber, coumarin and even pipe tobacco. It would probably fall in the woody-amber or woody-incense family, sounds nice. Check out Diptyque Tam Dao or Black Phoenix Anne Bonny.

    Thank you, kristinc! It’s a bit of an arcane mystery to me, but this is the first time I’ve come across something I rather like.

    Giliell, it sounds like you’re moving in the direction of putting it behind you – still very painful, but you’re not letting it get right at the heart of you any more … or, at least, well, heading that way. Well I hope so, anyway. And if you think there is any chance there could be some suppressing-and-letting-it-fester going on, say without your being consciously aware of it, then I hope you have a good person/people with whom to talk about it (whether friend or professional)

  298. 798
    McCthulhu, now with -25% less fat.

    ‘Tis Himself:

    Kicking someone who has been a decent contributor to the comments sections when they’re down isn’t very sporting. SC felt strongly about something and everyone else was on a differernt page. It happens. It could also be you next time. This isn’t supposed to be an echo chamber, remember?

  299. 799
    Inaji

    McCthulhu, I don’t think ‘Tis was knocking anyone when they were down at all. I think you may have missed out on a whole lot of discussion. Notwithstanding, this isn’t the first time SC has flounced.

  300. 800
    'Tis Himself

    Setár, self-appointed Elf-lord of social justice #251

    Nor do I think that anyone saying that demand-side economics is more reasonable than supply-side economics, as several commenters suggest. The reality is, there isn’t really much conclusive evidence either way. There are economic policies that work and economic policies that don’t work. So the whole her-economic-ideas-aren’t-reasonable thing is, well, unreasonable.

    Demand-side economics is an economic theory which suggests that economic stimulation comes best from increasing the demand for goods and services. Also called Keynesian economics this concept is usually placed in direct opposition with supply-side economics, which suggests that stimulation is achieved through increasing the supply of goods and services. Like most economic theories, it is easier to understand the principles of demand-side economics in theory than in practice.*

    Demand-side economics is first and foremost a means of dealing with economic recessions and stimulating economic growth while preventing inflation. It is meant as a control on both expansion and retraction, to keep an economy in a stable zone. To stimulate growth, a government should lower taxes on the middle and working classes and increase government spending. To combat rising inflation in an expanding economy, a government should raise taxes and reduce spending.

    The concern of demand-side economics is the velocity or movement of money. Middle class and working class people are more likely to spend a high percentage of income on consumables and services, rather than stockpiling money in saving accounts or investments. If a person buys milk at a grocery store, the grocer can take his profit and get his car fixed, and the mechanic can take his money and go to a movie; in other words, the money keeps moving around, stimulating demand for goods and services. By lowering taxes and increasing government spending, these high-spending classes are given more capital to spend, thus stimulating the economy.

    Demand-side economics is often contrasted with supply-side economics, which suggests that cutting taxes on the wealthiest people allows business owners to create more jobs and thus the wealth will pass down from top to bottom. In the US demand-side economics are associated with Democratic policy while supply-side economics are associated with Republican policy. Interestingly, the father of supply-side theory was Karl Marx.

    Though demand-side economics has certainly had some measurably beneficial effects on various economies, it has also had its problems. Many economists blame the application of the theory for the bizarre rise of “stagflation” in the US in the 1970s. This situation occurred when inflation continued to rise even in the face of higher taxes and a stagnated business market. Consumers, fearing even more price increases, spent more, which continued to increase demand even in the wake of rising prices and interest rates.

    *I am a New Keynesian economist so I’m predisposed towards demand-side economics. However it should be noted that no theory of economics has ever been optimal at all times and in all situations.

  301. 801
    'Tis Himself

    McCthulhu,

    I asked because I consider SC to be a valued member of the Pharyngula commentariat. She has some very strong opinions which are not generally shared by others here and, rather than get into long, heated, and ultimately futile arguments, she has left us for various lengths of time.

    She’s had arguments before about being a vegan and that’s been her main reason for leaving. The last time she left she gave the impression that she wasn’t coming back. I was wondering if this is the ultimate flounce or just another temporary one.

    There was nothing in my question about kicking SC when she’s down. I am concerned that she might be going and not returning.

  302. 802
    McCthulhu, now with -25% less fat.

    Mea culpa then. I just hope that flouncing doesn’t become a ‘Dungeonable’ crime.

  303. 803
    Inaji

    McCthulhu:

    I just hope that flouncing doesn’t become a ‘Dungeonable’ crime.

    Where is this coming from? People are free to come, go, flounce, de-flounce all they like. It happens all the time. Why on earth would someone be banned for it?

  304. 804
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    opposablethumbs
    Thanks. Yes, I’m seeing a therapist. It’s doing bunch of good and there’s no reason to be ashamed of it. After all, there’s just health. I have health-problems. I’m seeing my GP for the infections and my therapist for the psyche.
    Only that they sadly haven’t invented antibiotics against 30 years of parental indoctrination :).

    ash plant

    Actually, what I really object to isn’t vegetarian food as such, but meat-replacements. I had them forced on me repeatedly during my childhood with the cheerfully gurning insistence that I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference, and funnily enough I could.

    I know what you mean. I cook vegetarian most days (but hardly ever vegan) and I really like it, but I can’t stand those “wannabe meat” things either.

    esteleth
    Wjat you can do with lentils also depends on what lentils you use. Small red lentils, for example, become pretty mushy and are ideal for giving a curry or a soup some texture. Black lentils are gorgeous as a luke-warm salad, green lentils make great soup. Best use: make pastry, roll into a baking tray. Put paper on top, put lentils on top for a bit of weight. Bake pastry and use to make pie. Put the lentils back onto the shelf, have pie ;)

  305. 805
    'Tis Himself

    Some thoughts on flouncing:

    I’ve only announced a flounce twice. The first time was at a now defunct economics blog where several of us got into a heated argument with the blogmeister and were threatened with bannination. On the principle of “you can’t fire me, I quit” I announced my flounce, as did several others. Within a month that blog disappeared.

    The other time was when Greg Laden was trolling his own blog (an incident in which SC was prominently featured) and he threatened to reveal my real name and my email address. I told him to fuck off and publicly flounced. I have never intentionally been to his blog (although PZ gave an unidentified link which I clicked on, as soon as I realized where I was I left).

    I was a regular at the snopes blog for over a year. However I got annoyed at a few things the Mikkelsons were doing and so I left. I didn’t flounce, I just stopped posting.

    A little over a year ago I was unhappy with how some people were acting on TET and so I stopped posting here. I didn’t announce a flounce, I just didn’t post. Now things seem to have got better and so I’m posting on TET again.

  306. 806
    petermountain

    I’m arguing that scientific consensus is not a variation of an ad populum fallacy. Rationalwiki helped a little. Can anyone think of any other resources? Here’s where my opponent is going:

    you and I both know that “scientific consensus” is often times simply dogma dressed in a lab coat. Only a fraction of the people who believe the dogma know the science. Likewise, it could be said that only a fraction of the people who hold to religious dogma know the rationale behind the dogma. So, in my opinion, it’s often quite the same.

    You tell me that science “scientific theory doesn’t claim to be true”. Sure, technically. But if that’s the case, what does the “mostly believe in” in your map mean? What you state is just rhetoric but you know that people are people and when it comes down to it they will hold all of their scientific beliefs as stridently as any religious belief. The is where Christianity has a hand up, of sorts. It makes a specific truth claim but also claims this is understood by faith. Scientific theories makes no faith claim but most of their adherents take them on some level of faith.

    The “mostly believe in map” is one I pulled from here.

  307. 807
    McCthulhu, now with -25% less fat.

    Caine: Sorry, was hitting the showers so I couldn’t get back at ya. The dungeon comment had tongue firmly planted in cheek.

  308. 808
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Scientific theories makes no faith claim but most of their adherents take them on some level of faith.

    This is a fallacy. Since science uses EVIDENCE, there are logical conclusions based on the evidence, not leaps of faith. Faith is required to believe when there is no evidence, like with religious dogma, and only then. Calling any scientific conclusion equivalent to a leap of faith is lie.

  309. 809
    Inaji

    McCthulhu:

    The dungeon comment had tongue firmly planted in cheek.

    Ah. Apologies for being so dreadfully slow on the uptake. I think I need sleep.

  310. 810
    'Tis Himself

    petermountain #306

    you and I both know

    This is a weasel phrase. Your opponent is trying to get you to agree with something you may not actually agree with. “You and I both know that I’m your intellectual superior and you’re not worthy to lick dogshit off my shoes.”

    “scientific consensus” is often times simply dogma dressed in a lab coat.

    Dogma is a belief or doctrine which is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers. Science doesn’t have dogma. If the scientific consensus is shown to be wrong, then that consensus is dropped. There aren’t a lot of people accepting phlogiston or luminiferous æther these days.

    Only a fraction of the people who believe the dogma know the science.

    This is a “yes and no” statement. Do I accept evolution? Yes. Am I intimate with the minutiae of how it works? Not really. However I accept that the experts do know how it works and I have read these experts explaining evolution in a non-technical manner. By the same token I don’t know the minutiae about how my computer works, but the experts who designed it do and I have proof that it actually does work. Is my belief that my computer works a dogma? I would say not.

    Likewise, it could be said that only a fraction of the people who hold to religious dogma know the rationale behind the dogma.

    Religious dogma doesn’t rely on evidence. It’s based on opinions and even guesses. My favorite story about how a bit of dogma came about is the Catholic belief that Mary didn’t die but was “bodily assumed” into Heaven. St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem in 451, was asked by the Byzantine emperor to provide some relics of Mary. Juvenal couldn’t produce any and so he said there weren’t any because Mary’s body went directly to Heaven.

    The difference between science and religion is that science depends on evidence and religion depends on faith. Mary’s assumption was invented because the evidence is that Juvenal made it up to get himself out of trouble with the boss. So a scientific view shows a religious dogma to be based on a guy covering his ass. Can any religious dogma make similar claims about science?

    So, in my opinion, it’s often quite the same.

    Ignorance and incredulity are not good bases for making claims.

  311. 811
    carlie

    Oniongirl, good to see you! Hugs and hugs.

    MikeG – knittinghelp.com is fantastic. Their videos are really clear and easy to follow.

    Caine – NO TICKS ARGH NO

  312. 812
    Pteryxx

    Scientific theories makes no faith claim but most of their adherents take them on some level of faith.

    petermountain, I think your opponent is confusing ‘faith’ with ‘trust’. Science as a process, while still subject to mistakes and human bias like everything, has earned a degree of trust through proven reliability.

    you and I both know that “scientific consensus” is often times simply dogma dressed in a lab coat. Only a fraction of the people who believe the dogma know the science.

    The science behind a consensus isn’t a rationale for believing, it’s evidence for proving. Besides, while only a fraction of people actually fully comprehend the evidence (namely scientists who specialize in the field) they are encouraged and rewarded for CRITICIZING each other. That’s what peer review is. Scientific results can generally be trusted because they’ve already been challenged and critiqued by motivated experts, and they continue to be challenged once made public. That’s why there’s no need for every individual to challenge the results all over again.

    So I’d suggest it’s not ad populum, first because science encourages the disproving of popular ideas, when it’s possible to disprove them; and second because it’s not a fallacy for lots of people to believe something that’s actually true. Sanitation and satellites don’t work just because lots of people believe in them, much less understand them.

  313. 813
    Inaji

    NO TICKS ARGH NO

    I hear you loud and clear, Carlie. The worst thing is the resultant tick paranoia. :shudders:

  314. 814
    broboxley OT

    A flea market is an interesting view of microeconomics. My 14yo and I make a bi-weekly trip to the local one. She is often pissed off at the price that some folks ask for their wares. I explain that they will either sell at the set price, lower the price or we will not see them again. I explain that the same dynamics are available at larger venues including intra country trade systems with the caveat that education advertising and shenanigans take place forcing populaces to suffer to ensure that the price is right. Is “fair trade” a valuable meme or is it an advertising slogan? A bit of both I suspect

  315. 815
    Pteryxx

    ah, I see – petermountain’s involved in a discussion stemming from one’s religion being highly correlated with where someone’s born and raised. Hence the map image showing scientific consensus as global, while religious consensus is regional.

    From linked discussion:

    Assuming you believe, say, evolution by natural selection is true, how did you come to that conclusion? Did you take your notepad to the Galapagos and postulate by the powers of your own observation and deductive reasoning? Or were you taught? If you were taught, would it be safe to assume you were taught in a setting where many others were being taught the same thing? And, since most people don’t move that far from home, would it be safe to say that, after time, there would be a lot of people holding to evolution as compared to areas of the world where those views are not taught? Does it naturally follow that I should be skeptical of evolution simply because of the number of people in my area who hold to it?

    To paraphrase Sagan: Is it worth being skeptical of your native language just because everyone who speaks it uses pretty much the same words?

    And for comparison with the science world map, the religion one:

    http://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/screen-shot-2012-05-01-at-6-46-18-pm.png

    Neat, thanks. I’m keeping those map links.

  316. 816
    Aratina Cage

    @’Tis Himself #300

    Tsk, tsk. ;) I seriously doubt you are Jessica Ellis or Bronwyn Harris, so you should cite your source for all that: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-demand-side-economics.htm

  317. 817
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    *peeks in*

    Cipher:

    Even so I have repeatedly just decided not to eat dinner because it was too much effort and I temporarily irrationally hate all food. I have also given up halfway through meals while still actively hungry because I suddenly can’t handle the texture of what I’m eating.

    I didn’t know about this. I don’t know what to say, except that this sounds incredibly shitty for you. :(

    John:

    Cheaper than fast food, non-animal products are, never mind good animal food.

    No. Pound for pound, maybe. But if we’re talking about number of calories per dollar (where it really matters) fast food is cheaper than nearly all raw food.

    That’s part of the problem with the obesity epidemic, especially among working-class Americans. Due to the amount of calories and the amount of protein in fast foods, you feel fuller longer than if you had eaten the equivalent amount of fruits/veg/beans/whatever.

    Anyway, as long as we’re done judging each other for our food choices, I’m making a real honest-to-goodness cheesecake with sour cream topping* and a graham cracker crust today. All of you dairy eaters can feel super jealous of my mom– it’s a surprise for Mother’s Day. :)

    This is the first time that I’m going to make a cheesecake in the stand-mixer and not mixing everything by hand. I expect it will be much quicker and easier.

    *I LOVE BAKING WITH SOUR CREAM.

  318. 818
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Can I just say that I get a little funny warm feeling in my pants when I see the Prometheus trailers and commercials.

  319. 819
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Question for the Horde. Our Rhododendrons are blooming. Is it OK to cut a few blooms and take to the Redhead? Any advice?

  320. 820
    carlie

    Nerd – from the rhododendron’s point of view? Of course. Just not too many branches, or it will sort of “shock” the bush and might have a bit of a vigor setback.

  321. 821
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Rev:

    Can I just say that I get a little funny warm feeling in my pants when I see the Prometheus trailers and commercials.

    Oh, yeah. I just get tingly for Prometheus, but trailers The Dark Knight Rises make me have to take a cold shower. ;)

  322. 822
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    We have seven rhododendron bushes, and I was thinking only three blooms, as they are large flowers. No bush should be too shocked.

  323. 823
    opposablethumbs

    Sounds lovely, Nerd. They are such stunning flowers, I bet they make a huge impact in whatever setting she sees them. I have a notion they might wilt relatively quickly and not travel well, though – am I imagining that, or is there any truth to it? Just as well I’m probably the most horticulturally ignorant person for miles around here; I’m sure you and lots of others will know!

  324. 824
    Pteryxx

    random:

    SMBC’s newest take on gay marriage: link to comic page

    (note: boo on use of ‘crazy’)

    Someone in the Good, Bad thread mentioned US involvement with United Fruit… ?

    *searches*

    O_O

    Whyyyy do I ALWAYS LOOOK…. (but now I know where the term ‘banana republic’ came from. Gaaah.)

  325. 825
    SallyStrange

    Dangit, my crappy internet connection destroyed my comment. Shorter version:

    SC is annoying sometimes but I hope she comes back.

    Life’s argument about the goodness of letting animals live longer lives than shorter ones is somewhat compelling, but has always left me wondering why, assuming lack of suffering, the same argument does not apply to non-animal lives.

    I’m quite busy of late, working overnight and spending some days watching Baby Niece, who is almost one year old and beginning (thank goodness) to grasp the difference between biting and kissing.

  326. 826
    Lynna, OM

    The more I hear about the Girl Scouts, the more I like them.

    Mormons hate the organization and refuse to support it. That’s a plus.

    And now a bunch of Catholic Bishops are investigating the Girl Scouts. Another sign that the Girl Scouts are on the right track, and that Catholic Bishops are fucking bugnuts.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/girl-scouts-scrutiny-catholic-bishops-16321682#.T66MFByorRw

    Long a lightning rod for conservative criticism, the Girl Scouts of the USA are now facing their highest-level challenge yet: An official inquiry by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

    At issue are concerns about program materials that some Catholics find offensive, as well as assertions that the Scouts associate with other groups espousing stances that conflict with church teaching….

  327. 827
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Life’s argument about the goodness of letting animals live longer lives than shorter ones is somewhat compelling, but has always left me wondering why, assuming lack of suffering, the same argument does not apply to non-animal lives.

    Because non-animals evidently don’t experience things. Extend the question further, to non-life: is it good to leave a rock in one piece or break it into two rocks? It’s not clear what good could mean in this case. Neither is it clear what it could mean “to” a plant.

    The ability to have experiences seems to be the delimiter where good and bad can begin to apply; there are good and bad experiences, but it’s unclear what good and bad nonexperiences would be.

  328. 828
    Lynna, OM

    This excerpt from the article about Catholic Bishops investigating the Girl Scouts tells you what this so-called investigation is really about: it’s another blow against contraception for women, and against sex education.

    “The leadership of the Girl Scouts is reflexively liberal. Their board is dominated by people whose views are antithetical to the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

    One of the long-running concerns is the Girl Scouts’ membership in the 145-nation World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts.

    The association, known as WAGGGS, is on record as saying girls and young women “need an environment where they can freely and openly discuss issues of sex and sexuality.” It also has called for increased access to condoms to protect against sexually transmitted diseases.

    Some critics want the Girl Scouts of the USA to pull out of the world group; the scouts aren’t budging.

    “Our world is becoming smaller and our young people need to have those opportunities to engage with their peers from around the world,” said the Girl Scouts’ CEO, Anna Maria Chavez. “But simply being a member does not mean that we will always take the same positions or endorse the same programs as WAGGGS.”

    To the Girl Scouts, some of the attacks seem to be a form of guilt by association. Critics contend that Girl Scouts materials shouldn’t contain links to groups such as Doctors without Borders, the Sierra Club and Oxfam because they support family planning or emergency contraception….

  329. 829
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    I would like the Girl Scouts a whole lot more if they didn’t have about as much gender role policing as Seventeen magazine and an agoraphobic litigator’s approach to outdoor activities. It totally sucks to conclude, as we have, that there’s more chance of moving the BSA into the light than to find a spot in a troop-level Girl Scout group that will encourage young women to be kick-ass outdoors types.

  330. 830
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    So, after I left for bed last night things got interesting.
    I’m not going to add anything, most everything has been said.

    I do, however, have an unrelated question:

    What is a good technique for getting cat vomit out of fabric? Like sheets and a comforter.

  331. 831
    MikeG

    Thanks for all the knitting advice last night. All sited have been bookmarked and will be explored when I have time.

  332. 832
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    Esteleth -washing machines. You probably haz one.

  333. 833
    Lynna, OM

    Another excerpt from the article about the Girl Scouts, saying, basically, that they are not properly hateful and intolerant like all good Christians should be, and that they inform girls about organizations like Planned Parenthood.

    One uneasy Catholic parent is Jody Geenen of West Bend, Wis., a troop leader for the past 14 years as her three daughters — now 18, 14 and 12 — became Girl Scouts.

    She complains about some program materials adopted by the Girl Scouts in recent years. One example she gave: a patch honoring Hispanic labor organizer Dolores Huerta, whose shortcomings — in the eyes of some Catholics — include a 2007 award from Planned Parenthood.

    Geenen hopes the Scouts will change their ways. “I love the Girl Scouts,” she said. “But it can’t remain the way it is.”

    American Heritage Girls signed a memorandum of mutual support in 2009 with the Boy Scouts of America, and some local units conduct joint activities. The Boy Scouts have no equivalent pact with the Girl Scouts, and the two organizations have, to an extent, become polarized ideologically.

    Even in the face of criticism, the Boys Scouts stand by their policy of excluding atheists and barring gays from leadership roles. The Girl Scouts have no such policies….

  334. 834
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Lynna:

    “The leadership of the Girl Scouts is reflexively liberal. Their board is dominated by people whose views are antithetical to the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

    For fuck’s sake.

    You know, my ass is antithetical to the teachings of the Catholic church, would those fucking bishops like to come and investigate?

    But this

    Some critics want the Girl Scouts of the USA to pull out of the world group; the scouts aren’t budging.

    makes me smile.

  335. 835
    Lynna, OM

    You know, my ass is antithetical to the teachings of the Catholic church, would those fucking bishops like to come and investigate?

    Quite.

    One of my recent MRIs revealed a “well formed corpus callosum,” which I am dead certain is antithetical to the teachings of the Catholic church. And sexy.

  336. 836
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    They do know that the BSA does stuff with the condom-friendly, god-neutral world scouting organizations, right? I mostly ignore American Heritage Girls, but a lot of the impetus towards their formation was the non-outdoors attitude of GSUSA, especially in their more recent program redesigns. Plus the lesbian atheist infestation, of course – there is that.

    Sigh. People are so annoyingly imperfect.

  337. 837
    Matt Penfold

    What is a good technique for getting cat vomit out of fabric? Like sheets and a comforter.

    When one of my cats threw up on my duvet I put everything through the washing machine, twice. First on a quickish rinse cycle, then a proper wash.

  338. 838
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I have to wonder if all of this backlash from the Catholic Church is because they can’t control their own parishioners anymore, so they feel the need to come down on everybody.

  339. 839
    Moggie

    When one of my cats threw up on my duvet I put everything through the washing machine, twice. First on a quickish rinse cycle, then a proper wash.

    You monster!

  340. 840
    carlie

    I really don’t get the Catholic Church’s whole “we’re going to investigate the Girls Scouts” thing. Under what authority are they going to “investigate”? And using what methods? I hope they understand that the Girl Scouts are under absolutely no obligation to hand over any organizational information at all (and I hope they refuse to if asked).

  341. 841
    carlie

    I had a ravelry account about a million years ago, and i can’t find any information about my login or anything else, although I may have been in the pharyngula group, possibly. Is it easily searchable if I make a new account and try to find it?

  342. 842
    carlie

    Ha! And I tried to sign up, and got the “you’re an idiot you’re already here” message, and got back in, and there I am in the group already. NEVER MIND.

  343. 843
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    The Ravelry group is Pharyngula Phan Club. Afaik, it’s totally public.

  344. 844
    thunk: y'all know ageism is a thing?

    Bah, hello.

    Threadrupt and sleepy today.

    I’ll try to refrain from going to deeply on SC’s zeal, but assuming veganism must be practiced by everybody because animals might be killed is bizarre. Although some *might* experience pain and suffering, human drives and emotions do supersede that.

    I myself am almost a vegetarian for the same reasons Setar discussed: very finicky olfactory systems.

    And bah. I am tired.

  345. 845
    Moggie

    carlie:

    I really don’t get the Catholic Church’s whole “we’re going to investigate the Girls Scouts” thing. Under what authority are they going to “investigate”? And using what methods?

    Hmm, I’m imagining some enjoyably cheesy TV. She’s a cop. He’s a priest. They fight crime!

    I hope they understand that the Girl Scouts are under absolutely no obligation to hand over any organizational information at all (and I hope they refuse to if asked).

    They could just reply with a few URLs.

    If the Catholic church is unhappy with GSUSA, why not form their own competing organisation? With their reach and their money, that shouldn’t be beyond their ability. This sort of split has happened before: for example, the Woodcraft Folk were founded in the UK by lefties who were unhappy with what they saw as the (then) militaristic and authoritarian nature of the Boy Scouts. But no, the Catholic church doesn’t want to compete in the marketplace of ideas. They want to bend non-Catholics to their will.

  346. 846
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good evening

    God is this kid lucky she lives in a no corporal punishment house. I spent half the day doing the summer-wardrobe-clean-up in the nursery. Within 5 min she was alone in there she didn’t only manage to carefully mix the three heaps I hadn’t yet managed to put into the according bags, no, she also pulled every. single. item out of her sister’s wardrobe and carefully mix that into the new gigantic pile, too

    I have to wonder if all of this backlash from the Catholic Church is because they can’t control their own parishioners anymore, so they feel the need to come down on everybody.

    They always felt the need to come down on everybody.
    If you ask me, they’re sounding desperate.

    Oh, btw, did you hear about the catholic school who cancelled the baseball state championship because the opposite team had a girl playing?

  347. 847
    SallyStrange

    HEY HEY HEY! If you’ve enjoyed any of my music postings, and you’re in the Northeast or are going to be in the area on June 21st, consider joining me and Esteleth for a FREE CONCERT by BALKAN BEATBOX who are utterly awesome! It’s at Rochester’s “Party in the Park” event, so it may be a bit crazy, but a chance to see Balkan BeatBox in the USA, and for FREE no less is a rare treat!

    I’m seriously psyched over this.

  348. 848
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD!

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