Do not disturb for a little bit »« Why I am an atheist – Libby Anne

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  1. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Found out my best friend’s dad is going downhill healthwise. He’s been put in hospice. He has, at the most, two weeks. It’s been hell on her and her family. Fuuuuuck . . . and so close to her graduation from grad school, too.

    And my co-worker’s dad isn’t doing well either. No idea if he’s on his way out.

    Beltane will be tinged with sadness for me this year. Maybe a little mead will help, or beer . . . maybe both.
    ———————————————–

    Pinkification: I didn’t notice until I was much older just how PINK the girls’ section of the toy store was. And it sounds like it’s gotten even pinker, if that’s possible. I’m glad I don’t have any little girls to worry about buying for – there might be retching during the flight up and down the aisles.

    Personally I can do without pink, although if a piece of clothing is mostly blue or some other color I like, a few splashes of pink are given the OK. Just, no Barbie pink. That stuff sears the eyeballs until it seems everything has a pink tinge to it.
    ————————————————

    Greeting cards: If you are goofy like me and my best friend can be, hours of fun can be had browsing the cards and picking out the funniest/cutest ones. Also, I’d rather get a card with puppies on it than a Bible verse (yes, even a sympathy card).
    ————————————————

    Bender’s Duckie is so GLOWY!
    ————————————————

    Books for English class/in general: One that made me want to scream “Enough already!”- Gone with the Wind. Cover to cover, in one day, but don’t ask me for the details. I’d say Wuthering Heights, but I couldn’t even get through two chapters of that. So when the test came, I had to wing it (and failed of course).

    Brave New World was like a train wreck. Everyone in my class wanted to stop, but they couldn’t because it was strangely riveting. It was one of the more disturbing books I’ve read. I was sad when John hanged himself at the end. I did get a few chuckles, but overall, eeeesh.

    The Chocolate War. Holy fuck, looking back, I’m wondering how many shenanigans like those in the book were going on, minus the chocolate sale, at my high school. I don’t know if I cried at all, but I was pretty pissed at how Goober and Jerry were treated. It also gave another glimpse into how cruel humans can be, and it sure made me doubt that old thing about boy not being as capricious and nasty as girls. And that brother, the one who laughed off the group beating as “boy will be boys”? Eeeeww.

    I Never Promised You a Rose Garden – originally wanted to read it for class, but Mom looked through it and said it was probably too much. I don’t even remember what I ended up picking. I remember going back later and reading the book. Yeah, I cried a little, because taking a trip into the head of someone with mental problems was pretty draining. I found it fascinating how even in the home, a sort of culture sprang up, with its own heroes and stories.

    Sounder, Where the Red Fern Grows, the Incredible Journey, all made me cry. Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer were a bit hard to get through since I wasn’t used to seeing that sort of language (dialect?) in books. To Kill a Mockingbird made me cheer at the end when Boo Radley saved Scout and Jem. There’s too much more to list without the post getting overly long.

  2. Lies Down to Reason says

    Hekuni Cat @487: thanks!

    Richard Austin @454: thanks as well. David Tennant always makes my day go better. :-)

  3. carlie says

    Riffing on childhood trauma via art, this article I just read on Little House on the Prairie is hilarious.

    Superficially we think of Little House as a family-friendly show about the olden days, but what we remember deep down are bizarre, searing visions of masked rapists, sputum-drooling morphine addicts, and Shannon Doherty in pigtail braids.If you grew up watching Little House, you know these flashbacks well: one moment you’re recalling Laura and Mary walking to school through the prairie swinging their lunch pails and the next your mind is screaming AND THEN MA ALMOST CUT HER OWN LEG OFF.

  4. Nutmeg says

    Okay, my results are seriously kicking ass tonight. No one else is in the lab to share my excitement, so I’m going to inflict it on the Horde. :)

    Celebratory *spice cake* for all!

  5. Just_A_Lurker says

    I met SE Hinton. One of my shorts was produced alongside one of hers in a theater festival. She’s awesome. We did improv together (we both sucked at it).

    That is seriously awesome.

    She wasn’t just a woman author; she was a girl author. She was 17.

    Yep. The teacher told us that. hehe. Lots of shock and awe from students with an urging from the teacher to read/write more etc.

    She also told us that S.E. Hinton when undercover as a boy to help with the story but I haven’t been able to confirm that anywhere. Online I’ve only found that it took her 4 years and used her experience for the story but not that she went undercover or anything like that for it. Anybody know if it’s true or not?

  6. says

    Lynna! So wonderful to see your pixels here; I had been first puzzled by a cryptic comment I managed to catch on my FB newsfeed, and then progressively gutted as I caught up here and realized what it meant.

    But I’m so happy to see you’re up to posting (even if only a little bit), and to hear that someone’s taking care of you!

    ***
    feralboy12:

    The first required book in high school that comes to mind for me is A Separate Peace. Kid falls out of tree and gets crippled, and the question is whether or not he was pushed[...]

    …by his best friend… who’s also the first-person narrator of the book. Talk about depressing!

  7. chigau (副) says

    I hated Moby Dick at 20 and loved it at 40.
    I have a couple more years before I read it again.

  8. woden says

    Thanks for all the warm welcomes. I’m pretty introverted, so I’m taking it slow and getting familiar with the place. I’ve spent the last couple days reading all the things. For once, my head is exploding in a good way. So, yeah. I like it here. One of these days, I’ll jump right in.

  9. says

    “Eeee! My critters are differentially expressing an interesting gene!”

    I love this place!
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    My HS assigned reading was similarly drab and depressing. “Cry The Beloved Country” in addition to most things listed above.
    It almost put me off reading. Most of it is shite, ‘Moby Dick’ being at the forefront, Dickens being a close second.

    ‘Great Literature’ [spoken in Margaret Dumont's voice] is mostly depressing, wordy, crap.

    It’s like English lit classes were like the Oscars; if it wasn’t ‘serious’ work, you didn’t get it.
    Fuck that, comedies, (I love me some Shakespeare), should have been leavened in the bread.

    OTOH, I was introduced to writers I initially thought were assholes, and it turns out, they can fucking write.

    Keep me interested in the book, and I’ll read it.

    Thank you Dumas, thank you Vonnegut, thank you to my teachers, who I hated for making me do all that work, and encouraged me to love some of it.

    If I might make a suggestion for teachers; make a reading list, but make it multiple choice.

  10. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Welcome, Woden! Like the name.

    I noticed you before, but I tend not to jump on the welcome-wagon until it’s obvious the person is actually gonna stick around for a while.

    So, welcome.

  11. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Okay, my results are seriously kicking ass tonight. No one else is in the lab to share my excitement, so I’m going to inflict it on the Horde. :)

    Celebratory *spice cake* for all!

    Nutmeg, I know you have good reasons for not telling us what you’re studying, but still, this is kinda torturous for me.

    It’s just not faaaaaaaaiiiiiiirrrrrrrrr…..

    I’ll take a piece of that spice cake as a consolation though.

  12. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Celebratory *spice cake* for all!

    *Grabs piece of spice cake, but before I can take a bite the Pullet Patrol tries to knock me over for their unfair share. OOF, Failed this time, but not by much*

  13. ibyea says

    @The Sailor
    Yeah, some of them are crap. I had to read an Ayn Rand’s book! And it was so tedious and boring, even though it was one of her short works (I am never going to read her doorstoppers).

  14. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Earlier today, I left a link title “Lying liars and the lies they tell.” It was about how an anti-lgbt marriage in North Carolina was spreading a fabricated story about how a LGBT rights activist assaulted an old woman who had an anti-LGBT marriage sign in her yard.

    Here is a clip of a man shooting a sign. That is how they deal with the issue here.

    If only we were nicer to people like this, they might be reasonable.

  15. A. R says

    Got the chance to do some vaccine awareness promotion today in the questions portion of a public lecture. I think I converted at least one anti-vaxxer.

  16. David Marjanović says

    “Eeee! My critters are differentially expressing an interesting gene!”

    I love this place!

    Seconded!

    nachos as big as your ass

    Fractally awesome.

    And so, to bed.

  17. A. R says

    Just got an e-mail from the lab tech, we finally got our salivary gland expression GLA4 drivers! This means we can start work right away in August for once.

  18. says

    I met SE Hinton. One of my shorts was produced alongside one of hers in a theater festival. She’s awesome. We did improv together (we both sucked at it).

    One of my favorite books was The Outsiders when I was growing up.
    It wasn’t assigned, it was just the kinda story I would read.

    A few years later I was amazed to find that a classmate had read it. I did not know that other people had read that book.

    My dog, kids are insufferable little fucks. except me and thee.

  19. says

    nachos as big as your ass

    Oddly enough, the nachos are the exact same dimensions. Like children, you never know what you are capable of until you have to push it out.

  20. says

    The Sailor:

    … Dickens being a close second.

    I actually like Dickens quite a bit*, especially compared with the terrible shit that we were forced to read in high school.

    In the tenth grade, one of the assigned books was The Hot Zone, which (if I remember correctly) was about Ebola. Weird, right?

    *Syd and Chuck the gerbils are named for Sydney Carton and Charles Darnay from A Tale of Two Cities.

    Hmmm, I’ve got a nice, old copy that I picked up in a used book store a couple of years back around here somewhere. I should find it and reread it.

  21. chigau (副) says

    I loved Dickens when I was a child.
    There was not one likable character in any of his books.
    (kinda like real life)
    As an adult I still like him but the 2D characters are a bit much (or little).

  22. Jessa says

    Threadrupt, but I am chiming in to say this: I, Jessa, decree that no more of my friends/family/internet acquaintances are allowed to have strokes. First Redhead, then Lynna, and now my father.

    Dad actually had his episode (a mild one) a little over a month ago, but the insurance company didn’t approve the tests he needed for a diagnosis until last week. And now they have initially denied any rehab. Fucking for-profit healthcare system.

  23. says

    ibyea, I read some of Rand’s books for fun, they weren’t assigned. As near as I can recall. I enjoyed one or two. I was 12.

    I also read a book about Orcs around ’bout that time. Goddamn was I Bored of the Rings. I liked The Hobbit quite a bit, and I felt compelled to finish a book(s) I’d started. I no longer feel that way.

    Thank you Tolkien, I got over it at a young age and so I wasn’t compelled to watch most of the movies that were made from it.
    +++++++++++++++++
    David M says “Collection of demotivational facepalm posters”
    IRT #1? I have become Comfortably Numb.

  24. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Sorry to hear about your father Jessa. Hope his rehab goes well.

  25. A. R says

    Audley RE The Hot Zone: That book is the reason I’m in virology. I’ve never had the chance to meet Preston though.

  26. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Dad actually had his episode (a mild one) a little over a month ago, but the insurance company didn’t approve the tests he needed for a diagnosis until last week. And now they have initially denied any rehab. Fucking for-profit healthcare system.

    My sympathies. I hope the rehab goes well at least.

  27. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Read Catcher in the Rye with the ex last winter. She wanted me to read it with her because she’d heard that old chestnut about serial killers being into the book or whatever.

    The experience of reading in bed with her was fun, but we both came to the conclusion that Holden Caulfield was a self righteous little turd. Everyone’s a ‘phony’ and he thinks he’s so much smarter than everyone else.

    My question is: Shitty writing, or was that ‘the point’ of the book?

  28. chigau (副) says

    If I had read The Hobbit first, I would not have read LotR.
    (I’ve read LotR 40-50 times, Hobbit maybe 2.5)

  29. leighshryock says

    Dad actually had his episode (a mild one) a little over a month ago, but the insurance company didn’t approve the tests he needed for a diagnosis until last week. And now they have initially denied any rehab. Fucking for-profit healthcare system.

    But, but, Private Healthcare wouldn’t fail someone! It must be some communist plot to poison the well! Or some crap like that.

  30. Jessa says

    Thanks, everyone.

    Everything will probably turn out okay, but I am just so pissed off that the insurance company made my father try to go about his daily life with only limited use of his right arm and leg for weeks while they dragged their feet. It could have been worse, but it certainly could have been better.

  31. chigau (副) says

    TLC
    That was the point that I got.
    Holden was a privileged asshole.
    (but he wasn’t wrong about everyone being a phony)
    (he was also in a fever-dream for most of the book)

  32. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Everything will probably turn out okay, but I am just so pissed off that the insurance company made my father try to go about his daily life with only limited use of his right arm and leg for weeks while they dragged their feet. It could have been worse, but it certainly could have been better.

    I remain silent on this stuff more than I’d like to because really, the way these rich fucks play tiddlywinks with people’s lives to increase their obscene profit margins makes me too angry to be coherent.

    All I can do is lamely offer my sympathies.

  33. says

    Jessa,

    “I, Jessa, decree that no more of my friends/family/internet acquaintances are allowed to have strokes.”

    I agree, they are a sneak thief that robs you while you are saying ‘wait, what!?’

    A month, and refusal, is against every medical protocol. I hate this shit. America fucks up so bad at even things they know are scientifically proven.
    ++++++++++++++++
    Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, A Tale Of Two Cities is one of the few books that I liked better as a movie.
    What’s not to like? Ronald Coleman?

  34. leighshryock says

    @TLC:

    My anger let the snark out, and I forgot something:

    My condolences to you, Jessa. Our healthcare system is a mess, but at least he’s in as good of a position as anyone can be right now, since he already has insurance. So, things should turn out well, if stressful along the way.

  35. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    TLC
    That was the point that I got.
    Holden was a privileged asshole.
    (but he wasn’t wrong about everyone being a phony)
    (he was also in a fever-dream for most of the book)

    Really? At what point in the book does the fever-dream start? The whole ending kinda just ‘fell apart’ for me and it became kinda hard to figure out what was going on.

    Audley: Ahh, I could see that. I’d probably be able to stomach the character if the book made it obvious that he was just a smug little know-nothing, but I think the author was actually trying to play it off as ‘smart’.

  36. Dhorvath, OM says

    Feralboy12, I too read A Separate Peace as well as Fifth Business, Handmaid’s Tale, and seven of the Bard’s works. Nothing I was assigned to read ever crossed my vision a second time.

  37. says

    I am just so pissed off that the insurance company made my father try to go about his daily life with only limited use of his right arm and leg for weeks while they dragged their feet

    Jessa, I am one of the worst people in the world.
    I laughed. It was a laugh to keep from crying, but it was a laugh.

    I pictured all his naysayers having to drag their feet because they denied him treatment.

    I am not a shining example of human kind.

  38. Jessa says

    leighshryock:

    My anger let the snark out, and I forgot something:

    No offense taken. Those around here who know me IRL know that I appreciate a good bit of bitter snark :)

  39. says

    TLC:

    … but I think the author was actually trying to play it off as ‘smart’.

    Pretty much.

    Speaking of which, one of the most fucked up things I’ve ever read was the Salinger short story A Perfect Day For Bananafish. It was just… ugh. Ick.

    (And bear in mind, I read that after I had read Lolita.)

  40. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    The Sailor: I was gonna try to make a joke about how the company has to make sure he’s not ‘faking it’, but wisely hit ‘delete’.

    So you’re not alone at least.

  41. Jules says

    *hugs* to Jessa

    I love “A Perfect Day for Bananafish” and “The Laughing Man.” My writing sample for grad school was a linguistic analysis of an excerpt from Franny and Zooey. Catcher in the Rye didn’t do much for me, though.

    I agree that he was right about phonies. And movies.

  42. ChasCPeterson says

    Hey, hi…sorry to stumble into teh lounge like this but seemed to me that some of the old-timers ought to be be made aware of this news:
    ‘member Kenny*?
    He wrote his book!

    *and, probably, ‘Planet Killer’. He may be the only person ever banned twice.

  43. Jessa says

    The Sailor:

    If it makes you feel better, when I went back and read what I wrote before posting, I chuckled, too. I decided to leave it in because it seemed fitting.

  44. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Audley: Fucked up how?

    The wikipedia entry doesn’t have much to say. And after ‘Catcher’, please don’t ask me to read it myself to find out.

  45. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Dr Audley: Ahhh, the wikipedia entry on it kinda made me suspect something like that. They don’t mention feet kissing there, but they do mention contrasting the ‘pure’ and ‘innocent’ young girl character with his ‘shallow’ wife.

    How does such a stinky author become so critically acclaimed?

  46. A. R says

    Fiction: I’ve never really enjoyed any fiction, aside from Dickens, Doyle (yeah, I know he was a horrible woo-ist), Shakespeare, and Toni Morrison.

  47. chigau (副) says

    TLC
    I can’t find my copy of Catcher and it’s been a few years, I may be mis-remembering. I thought Holden had pneumonia.
    —-
    Dhorvath
    I read The Fifth Business and the other Deptfords every couple of years.
    and everything else by Robertson Davies.

  48. Dhorvath, OM says

    Chigau, I had serious issues with the saint argument in FB and I don’t think I made it through the Manticore at all. I know many who do enjoy the trilogy, I just can’t make headway with it.

  49. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Chigau: Yeah I knew something was up towards the end when he started thinking he was going to melt into the sidewalk or whatever, but I can’t remember the actual point in the book where he goes into a fever dream.

    Whatever, I’ve already spent too much time discussing a book that’s significantly shittier than the average wet fart. I’m sure the rest of you will agree.

  50. says

    Read Catcher in the Rye with the ex last winter. She wanted me to read it with her because she’d heard that old chestnut about serial killers being into the book or whatever.

    The experience of reading in bed with her was fun, but we both came to the conclusion that Holden Caulfield was a self righteous little turd. Everyone’s a ‘phony’ and he thinks he’s so much smarter than everyone else.

    My question is: Shitty writing, or was that ‘the point’ of the book?

    My reading is that Holden is suffering from PTSD…if that clears anything up

  51. chigau (副) says

    TLC
    Pneumonia can do very strange things to your cognition.
    I agree on the time spent on the discussion, I vehemently disagree on Salinger. But I don’t want to continue the discussion.

  52. Dhorvath, OM says

    I might note that we spend time talking about science that is almost wrong because it makes sense to cover what we thought before we get to what we think. Why not read novels that aren’t good, but represent techniques that are important?

  53. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    In other news, my foray into beer making begins tomorrow.

    While getting a hand pump and failing to find a second 1 gallon glass jug to rack mead into, I noticed these ‘Big Easy Bottle Brewing’ kits for around 7 bucks.

    It’s a two liter of wort that comes with a special lid and a little yeast pill. Apparently all you have to do is leave it somewhere for 1-2 weeks until it starts clearing, refrigerate for 12 hours, and enjoy.

  54. says

    JOOC, has anyone seen this steaming pile of paranoia, strawmen, and lies? On old friend from HS days — someone I remember as having been a compassionate and intelligent young woman back then — posted it on her FB feed, and I’m just struck dumb by it.

    It’s one thing when some faceless right-wing mouthpiece, or some asshat stranger, spouts this stuff, but…. I almost wish I could believe she had some neurological disease: That might be less disturbing than believing she’s come to think this way with a healthy brain. How does this happen?

    <SadHeadshake>

  55. Rey Fox says

    I don’t remember much about English reading, just that I hated English class. Let’s see, Lord of the Flies and Of Mice and Men I liked. I think I liked Huckleberry Finn, wrote an impassioned essay against censorship regarding it. Didn’t like much of the rest of required reading.

    I used to be pretty dead set against not finishing a book once I’d started (made it all the way through Infinite Jest, footnotes and all), but I’ve mellowed out on that over the years. Before that, the last book I could remember not finishing was, in high school, a book written from the point of view of the monster Grendel from the Beowulf stories. Title was Grendel, can’t remember the author, it was terrible.

  56. Dhorvath, OM says

    Rey Fox,
    Time was I would mimic reading just about anything just to say I finished. It wasn’t far off from reading a Coles Notes, with me getting the very basic jist of the plot and not much more. I don’t have much time to dedicate to reading so I like to make it count now and books fall by the wayside more often than I finish now.

  57. Nutmeg says

    TLC:

    Nutmeg, I know you have good reasons for not telling us what you’re studying, but still, this is kinda torturous for me.

    It’s just not faaaaaaaaiiiiiiirrrrrrrrr…..

    Tee-hee-hee. It’s funny for me to think of someone outside my lab being in suspense about my research. I’m not studying anything glamourous, and I can almost guarantee that you’ve never heard of my study species.

    The results I’m so excited about? Well, they’re the preliminary analysis of the first half of the preliminary experiment that I have to do before I can plan the rest of my thesis. So, nothing earth-shattering, just encouraging for me.

    I just get excited about results. I think every lab has a person like me. I’m the one who will stand in front of the [results-displaying equipment] and, depending on what I see, either jump up and down with excitement or swear so loudly the whole lab looks up from their computers.

    But I appreciate the interest. Someday, when I’ve been here a little longer, I might ask to join PET. I wouldn’t mind having the regulars know more about my work. I just don’t want anyone who’s lurking and doesn’t know me in real life to be able to figure out my real name.

  58. chigau (副) says

    Rey Fox
    I read Grendel.
    I remember nothing.

    After reading the Pfft article, I know why.

  59. ibyea says

    @Rey Fox
    Pretty much the only assigned reading I liked was 1984. While I believe the English people when they say Shakespeare was good, I didn’t like them, probably because the culture I was raised in was far removed from that period, to the point where I didn’t get it.

    Wait, there is an official fanfiction on Beowulf?

  60. says

    Horde members who drink smoothies and/or Jamba Juice type concoctions, what are your favorite flavor combinations?

    I drink a smoothie every day (frozen fruit/veg, yogurt, and sweetened green tea) and I am ready to expand my flavor repertoire. I regularly stock a small-berry mix and a “festival” mix (papaya-strawberry-pineapple-mango) from Costco but I have no hesitation to process and freeze my own stuff in season. I like pineapple+spinach/chard+grated ginger, and small-berry+figs; raspberry+honeydew melon; and pumpkin puree+peaches+ginger+cardamom.

    I was thinking if I can get my hands on nice ripe tomatoes, tomato+pineapple? What about some cooked and frozen veg like carrot+peach or beet+?? Cucumber? Plum? I would rather have a sweet drink than a savory V-8 type thing and try to avoid strange colors like muddy brown.

  61. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Nutmeg: I dunno, I’ve heard of some pretty obscure creatures and find glamour in odd places in the animal kingdom, but I confess to being somewhat less interested in the (No less detailed and fascinating world of) microscopic things and such than in creatures I can actually see with the naked eye.

  62. chigau (副) says

    smoothies recipe
    -whatever is in the basket
    -whatever is passing its prime in the freezer
    -yoghurt

  63. Dhorvath, OM says

    Nutmeg,
    Make no mistake, I have no need to know what species you study to enjoy your energy when things are exciting. A tip o the wine in your direction.

  64. thunk says

    Hey there, everyone. I’ve been lurking here for about a year and a half but I’ve now decided to stop doing so. First, a word of thanks to everyone who made me stop being an MRA. Secondly, you all are awesome.

    As for smoothies, I’d go for strawberry and carrot.

  65. says

    Rey:

    Before that, the last book I could remember not finishing was, in high school, a book written from the point of view of the monster Grendel from the Beowulf stories. Title was Grendel, can’t remember the author, it was terrible.

    That would be John Gardner, not to be confused with the other John Gardner, also a novelist, who wrote spy books including the first 14 post-Fleming James Bond books. I think there was also another John Gardner who wrote self-help books.

    John Gardner (the Grendel one) was the head of the Creative Writing program at Binghamton University (then called SUNY-Binghamton) when I was a Master’s degree student in the program. That is, he was leading the program when I applied (he was the reason I applied) and when I arrived on campus, but he was killed in a motorcycle crash about 2 weeks after I hit town and, as it happened, before I ever had a chance to meet the man. So it goes (to quote yet another great of American fiction).

    The funny thing is, I never ended up reading Grendel, though I’ve had a copy in my library for 30+ years now, so I couldn’t say whether I agree with your assessment.

  66. Nutmeg says

    It is very nice to have a place where science is appreciated. Evenings in the lab are much more satisfying when I can share progress/frustration with the Horde. So thanks for that.

  67. says

    I’m feeling a bit wistful about the end of my spawn’s Yale career. She’s already attended her last classes, and her last paper is due tomorrow. And today she and her staff distributed her last issue of Q magazine as Editor-in-Chief. That link will get you the online version of the whole issue: I commend to your attention the “Letter from the Editor” (Page 1) and the article “Gay Anthems That Weren’t” (Page 33). I also note that I recognize the alarm clock in the photo on Page 21 as being my spawn’s… but I refuse to speculate about the ownership of any other items in the picture: Even a sex-positive dad has to maintain a certain level of plausible deniability, eh?

  68. thunk says

    @97: Yes, I agree. Chilling out and reading this is so much more fun than just doing the daily slog at school.

  69. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Nutmeg: I learn a hell of a lot of stuff here.

    I’ve only got an alternate high-school education, but I make up for it by being unendingly and insatiably curious about the natural world.

  70. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Also I’m very glad to share in the highs and lows of your discovery, despite aforementioned insatiable curiousity.

  71. thunk says

    @102 Agreed. In my lurking here, I have learned much more about how to be a decent human being here, than in my formal schooling.

  72. thunk says

    Hello chigau! I’ll pass on the grog, sadly, being underage and all. Nice to meet the horde.

  73. chigau (副) says

    Nutmeg
    I’m with TLC.
    I haven’t a clue what you’re doing but I have an unlimited supply of high-fives and hugs.

  74. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Me too, thunk. A lot of the stuff that came out in the wake of ‘Elevatorgate’ (for lack of a non-stupid term for it) really made me change some basic and frankly misogynistic and assinine assumptions I’d held for a long time.

  75. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    I’m 27, thunk, and never had any interest in college really. School in a formal sense is long behind me.

    The people I run with now tend to be people I actually choose to run with, and though many of them haven’t had the ‘realizations’ I’ve had, they’ve at least shown some ability to listen to some reason on the issues.

    I sympathize on the schoolmates, though.

  76. Dhorvath, OM says

    And we rule the recent comments bar. First time I have seen all fifteen from one thread.

  77. thunk says

    TLC:
    Yeah, i’ll probably be that way when I grow up. (I’m 15 currently) Having a group of close friends does help though. Most are obstinate; there’s a strong undercurrent of misogyny at my school, sadly. Ah well, ’tis life.

  78. says

    I’m 15 currently

    So young? As my mother might say, “who’d ‘a thunk it?” ;^)

    Seriously, welcome! Be happy you found this crowd so young; I had to wait ’til I was bearing down on 50 before they started smartening me up.

  79. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    ah, 15 was a hard age for me. I never really went to a regular high school, too many issues with people in elementary school. Tough times.

    But if you’ve been learning the same things I’ve been talking about learning here, then you have more than a ten year head start on me in that subject.

  80. thunk says

    Bill Dauphin:

    Common joke there.

    Yes, i’m glad to be here too; you’re all quite sage about this. Just happy to get a head start.

  81. Dhorvath, OM says

    Chigau,
    Everything is smoother after being in the blender. Bacon should crunch.
    ___

    Thunk,
    And a welcome to you as well. Would that I could have done this when I was your age.

  82. Nutmeg says

    Hi thunk! It’s great to see teenagers here – I wish I had had this crowd to learn from when I was in high school.

  83. ibyea says

    @thunk
    I found this blog when I was 16. I was still a Creationist till then, and a few months afterwards. Looks like you already got a head start. :)

  84. thunk says

    Dhorvath,

    Yes, i’m rather happy that i found this place while not firmly set in my ways. Just got up to speed with everything over the last months, and now chatting with you :)

  85. thunk says

    Anyway, it was nice meeting you all. I have to retire for the night; G’nite and seeya!

  86. says

    I hate these “healthy eating” sheets my kid brings home with her school lunch menus. At Thankgiving I was informed that I should make creamed onions with skim milk rather than cream and explain to my kid that it tastes just the same (I don’t make creamed onions, for anyone who was wondering).

    Now I am told that the only way to have a summer picnic in which I don’t strangle myself with guilt over making my kids ZOMG TEH OBESE is to never serve “mayonnaise-laden” potato or macaroni salad. I should serve broccoli slaw with low-fat dressing instead and watch all present cry out in culinary joy. And no chips and dip! Raw vegetables instead.

  87. Jules says

    If anyone cares, I gave the name of the creepy short story already.

    It’s “A Perfect Day for Bananafish.”

    I saw his interaction with the child not much as a contrast to his wife but as a contrast to his adult life. I don’t think his wife was portrayed as shallow. I think she was portrayed as normal. The contrast is that he was disturbed. I also never picked up on any sexual undertones. He seems asexual to me. But I’m just a reader, not a fancy literary analyst.

    He’s not exactly someone whose example you’re supposed to live up to. It’s just a simple tragedy. It’s an insight into the way these things happen, where everyone says, “But he seemed so happy.”

    And the takeaway for me is, yeah. He did. And even when you know more of what’s going on in his head, it still might not make sense. Because people aren’t easy or simple.

    I don’t like everything Salinger wrote, but I think he was a good writer when he wasn’t too in love with his own cleverness. He even makes fun of himself for that tendency when he writes of Buddy Glass (who is the character most like him from what I understand–not Seymour, the one in the story above).

  88. Jules says

    Oh, and almost anything written with Buddy as narrator is intolerable to me. That includes Seymour: An Introduction, which is about a more likable character, but is told in that obnoxious narrator voice. I admit I couldn’t even finish it, so maybe it got better.

    Now for sleeps.

  89. Jules says

    Doh! I go all high school lit class when we have a high schooler delurk. Sorry, thunk. I can be more fun! I promise. Just not when sleepy. Someone triggered my literary criticism programming, which is the only thing that sprung me to life.

    Welcome to TET. I look forward to seeing you around.

  90. Menyambal: Making sambal isn't exactly dragon magic. says

    I just spent part of the evening hooking up the new digital tuner on my cable TV. I found it easier to just disconnect the videotape player and leave it out–I have watched about one videotape a year, I think. The DVD player is hooked in better, and does get used, sometimes.

    The reason I mention it is that the new set-up tells me what TV program is showing on a channel, even if there is a commercial running. I used to cycle around and around the channels, hoping there was something good after the commercials, but there never was. Now I can tell that it all sucks in much less time.

    Plus the new remote actually shuts off the TV, which is a blessing.

  91. Menyambal: Making sambal isn't exactly dragon magic. says

    Welcome, thunk.

    When I was your age, I was sitting in a Baptist church, thinking it was all bullshit, and having no idea where to go and who to talk to. You are most fortunate to have found this place.

    And so am I.

    Thanks to all for great ideas, thoughtful communication, and excellent writing.

  92. says

    I hate these “healthy eating” sheets my kid brings home with her school lunch menus.

    Why ? Is that like with health insurance, you don’t want the government or any authority to tell you what to do, or how ?

    I treated a 13yo girl yesterday. She weighed 100 kg. It’s child abuse.

    This sheet may not be required for you to know how to feed your kids healthy food, but it may be a very helpful thing for a lot of other parents.

  93. opposablethumbs says

    Late to say this (eh, timezones) but yay!!!! A post from Lynna!!!!! And also yay for your brother looking after you. Hope you and the rockery both survived (have to make it a shrubbery next time, full of knights that say Ni!, they’re probably softer to land on)

    And also yay!!!! for Nutmeg’s critters! ::applauds Sili doing the data dance::

    Got the chance to do some vaccine awareness promotion today in the questions portion of a public lecture. I think I converted at least one anti-vaxxer.

    Another yay! for A.R.

    Sorry about your dad, Jessa. I’ve always hated the US heath-we-don’t-care-at-all system in the abstract; now that I read the Horde it feels a lot more personal. What sadist thought this was a good idea … oh yeah, a rich one. Like our very own David “I’m all right Jack” Cameron ::spits::

  94. says

    I do apologize for posting this here, but everyone should probably take a look. This is what Abbie Smith is still allowing to go on on her former blog come lunatic asylum. The mind boggles.(it’s comment 4400 on the PTS thread there, I’m not linking to it)

    The Vanilla Vagina
    Appearing at the O’Really? Hotel, Dublin.
    April 1st & Friday 13th.
    (In the elevator SHAFT)
    3:30am to 5:27am (or whenever Beccy collapses)

    Sadistic Puppy-Rock with a Funck Rhythm.

    Feat.:
    O. Benson – Fretful Bass
    R. Watson – Brass
    P. Zed Liers – Arse
    Rorschack – Hot Licks
    Greta – Nude Dancing (Cancelled due to lack of time)
    Sheryl Crowe – Who cares?
    G. Laden – Tuneless vocal Wimpering
    …and the chorus of trained baboons.

    NOTE: Rated [I] (Only suitable for mental infants)

    Posted by: Michael Kingsford Gray | April 24, 2012 9:12 AM[kill]​[hide comment]

    What happened to those people ? Or was their perceived civility and rationality always as brittle and ephemeral ? Beats me.

  95. Matt Penfold says

    What happened to those people ? Or was their perceived civility and rationality always as brittle and ephemeral ? Beats me.

    Sometimes the appearance of civility and rationality is just a veneer, and a thin one at that. The likes of Kingsford Gray have never truly be civilised or rational; they have just been good until now of hiding the fact.

  96. carlie says

    I also vote for civility being a veneer.

    Bill, that was a staged shot composed of items that different people on staff donated. Your daughter donated only the alarm clock. :)

  97. carlie says

    rorschach – just out of curiosity I went and skimmed her front page; judging by the number of comments on each post, not very many people like hanging out around there. I guess that’s a little bit of optimistic news about humanity.

  98. leaford says

    Hey everybody. A friend of mine linked me to this pic, which I immediatly identified with and shared on my Facebook, but for whatever reason it just now occured to me that it’s even more fitting for PZ. Hope you all agree:

    http://www.facebook.com/messages/?action=read&tid=id.244780015618040#!/photo.php?fbid=354947537885982&set=a.308809542499782.69778.100001122154444&type=1&theater

    PZ Myers IS the Credible Hulk!!

    BTW, can anyone tell me how to change the avatar pic here? I can’t seem to find it in either the profile or dashboard settings.

  99. 'Tis Himself says

    Hooray, hooray, it’s the First of May,
    Outdoor fucking begins today!

  100. Matt Penfold says

    Some news from the UK.

    A report from a Parliamentry committee has found that “Rupert Murdoch is not a fit person to exercise the stewardship of a major international company.

    The BBC report is here.

  101. says

    Fucking depression. I can’t get anything done. I can’t do anything. I sit here at my desk thinking what’s the fucking point I don’t matter to anyone. Mind mind’s telling me that I should just go curl up and die cause no one would miss me and it’d make things a hell of a lot easier than anything else.

    I’d go to my counselor, but since the majority of this is stuff about my transgenderism I’m not ready to tell her that. I don’t have enough sick leave to take off this day, so I’m just gonna hope no one comes down and sees me sitting with a stupid look on my face.

    Bleh bleh, “Kitty’s whining again.” Go ahead and say it I know half of you are thinking it.

  102. Sili says

    Rupert Murdoch is not a fit person to exercise the stewardship of a major international company.

    When has that ever stopped anyone?

  103. Sili says

    My half isn’t thinking that, Katherine. And I know from whining.

    Take care. We don’t wanna have a Rhinebeck without you.

  104. carlie says

    Tis – I’ve been singing it all morning.

    Katherine – you matter to me. I wish I was close enough to take you out for a coffee. (And maybe jewelry shopping.) You matter to a lot of us. You could still tell your counselor about the depression; often it doesn’t have an easily understandable cause, so you wouldn’t need to tip your hand about it yet but still get some help.

  105. John Morales says

    Kitty, hey.

    Hang in there.

    (The future is yet unwritten, and you are much more than a leaf blown in the wind)

  106. Sili says

    kristinc, ~bitter and resigned~

    I hate these “healthy eating” sheets my kid brings home with her school lunch menus. At Thankgiving I was informed that I should make creamed onions with skim milk rather than cream and explain to my kid that it tastes just the same (I don’t make creamed onions, for anyone who was wondering).

    Now I am told that the only way to have a summer picnic in which I don’t strangle myself with guilt over making my kids ZOMG TEH OBESE is to never serve “mayonnaise-laden” potato or macaroni salad. I should serve broccoli slaw with low-fat dressing instead and watch all present cry out in culinary joy. And no chips and dip! Raw vegetables instead.

    As Rorschach said, I doubt these are targeted directly at you.

    Most of us may well know that ‘unhealthy’ food is okay in moderation, but some people take an all-or-nothing approach to life. I don’t like when people have to fret about every little thing they eat, but it’s hard to educate.

    Unfortunately the all-or-nothing applies to educators as well, as evidenced by the terrible grammar education in the US: If they do it too much, they mustn’t do it at all.

  107. KG says

    Good to see Lynna able to post! Sympathies to Jessa – stone me, I knew the US health system was crappy, but making someone wait a month for a stroke diagnosis – that’s plain evil. Welcome Woden and thunk!

    Rupert Murdoch is not a fit person to exercise the stewardship of a major international company. – UK Parliamentary committee

    And here’s me been thinking all this time that he’s the greatest benefactor of humanity in history.

  108. says

    HI there
    Uff, you wrote lots
    Happy Labour Day, everybody

    Jessa
    I’m sorry to hear

    Rorschach
    I think you should simply feel honoured by the company in which you were included ;)

    kristinc
    Are your kids overweight?
    Do they eat enough fruit and veg?
    If the answer to question one is no and the answer to question two is yes, who cares?

    Also:

    Also, my drill she is corded. I’m not such a delicate fucking flower that I can’t hook up an extension cord in exchange for a buttload’s worth of power and the ability to drill through damn near anything

    I have a good cordless one. To drill holes into these walls you need heavy machinery and for putting up furniture, the cordless ones are good.

  109. says

    ‘Tis, I was coming in here specifically to link to Jonathan Coulton’s “First of May.” (NSFW audio and video)

    Also, I heard this yesterday morning for the first time in years:

    Mary-Chapin Carpenter – Halley Came to jackson

    The last verse always chokes me up.

    Audley, I’ve had Lolita recommended to me by a few friends who are feminists/feminist allies, partly because of Nabokov’s prose style, partly because Nabokov is not sympathetic to Humbert’s outlook. I might read it at some point.

    I was in school in the ’70s and ’80s. So, yeah, S.E. Hinton, Paul Zindel, Flowers for Algernon, that sort of thing. The Devil’s Shadow in fifth grade, as it was local history. I was assigned Death of a Salesman in high school but, oddly enough, not The Crucible. We also read Ethan Frome, Wuthering Heights (vomit), The Stranger (in both French and English classes, in those languages respectively), a little Guy de Maupassant (again in French)… I can’t remember what else, except some poetry (“Westron Wind,” “The Haystack in the Floods,” “Richard Corrie,” Prévert’s “Déjeuner du matin,” etc.) Also lots of Shakespeare.

    Ibyea, a lot of books have made it into The Canon™ for little other reason than that they’ve been around for a long while. I can understand that English speakers should have at least a glancing acquaintance with it all, if only through Cliff’s Notes, for the sake of cultural literacy. I don’t think they need to read all or even most of the books to be culturally literate.

    Hi, Thunk. I’m glad you’ve dropped that poisonous ideology, which in addition to harming women couldn’t have been good for your mental health. Hang in there w/r/t your schoolmates.

    Also hello to a few other people I think I missed yesterday… seems like we’ve become really popular as of late, hasn’t it?

    Kristin, I hate that shit too. I went through a lot of that nonsense myself as a child, before it became popular, because my mother was into Weight Watchers. (Note to Rorschach: It certainly didn’t help me form better eating habits, I can tell you that. Maybe you ought to read up on eating disorders among young women, instead of focusing only on ZOMG DEATHFATS!!!)

    Giliell:

    Are your kids overweight?
    Do they eat enough fruit and veg?
    If the answer to question one is no and the answer to question two is yes, who cares?

    She cares because American culture is full of body-shaming, especially for girls and especially for girls who aren’t slender, coupled with a Calvinist rejection of pleasure in food or in anything else. There is much more attention paid to whether girls and women are thin than whether they’re actually healthy, and the two are NOT synonyms. A stocky girl who’s got some fat in addition to muscle can be quite athletic and much healthier than a reed-thin girl who smokes, but guess who’ll get targeted with “concern” for her “health”?

    Hugs to Kitty.

  110. says

    Kat,
    *hugs* and *chocolate* and *booze after work*

    Sorry if this has been discussed before, but have you thought of looking for a therapist that specializes in working with trans people? Switching therapists may be helpful, especially since you’re not out to your current one.

    Thunk,
    Welcome in! *pinches cheek!*

    Daisy,
    Lolita is definitely not for the faint of heart, but your friends are correct– Humbart twists himself into knots trying to justify what he does. Nabokov doesn’t present him as sympathetic in any way, shape, or form.

  111. thunk says

    Hey, everyone.

    @ Most of the discussion: Yeah, I’ve read a few things in lit class (catcher was our most recent one) Never was a fan of literary analysis, although I’m starting to warm to it. Science type here.

    @ People who welcomed me: Thanks! Have some delicious cookies! (and veggies + dip)

  112. says

    Ms Daisy Cutter
    I’m aware of that, I can tell you that German society isn’t much more forgiving either. One of the things that led me into obesity was that as a child with a bit of puppy-fat I was declared fat and consequently thought “well, I’m fat anyway, why not have another piece of cake?”.
    That’s why I am proposing a “who cares”.
    I’ve been through the opposite side of that with #1 who’s naturally skinny. Way below the 3% line (hey, wait, if only 3 kids are slimmer than that, it means that there are actually 3 kids in every hundred slimmer than that!) I was treated like some mother-monster who lets her kid starve to death. Until I decided that they could all fuck themselves. The kid is smart, healthy and growing/gaining weight in a steady progress. The only thing we can do for our kids who are growing up in this weight-obsessed society is to lead a good example.

  113. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    Good morning.

    Happy May Day!

    Workers of the World Untie! You Have Nothing to Lose But Your Change!

    I feel frightened. I did my bills and still have money left over. And I doubled checked everything. I paid it all. And I still have money. I scared.

    Cool rainy bleah.

    Threadrupt.

    And, from far earlier (this was still on my notepad from yesterday):

    Failing to spot my humour is a sine of sanity.

    Oggie’s off on another tangent.

    That’s it. Next time you want a loan, find someone else to cosine it.

    The Sailor, does that make you a cosignatory to his lines, or have you got another angle?

    We’re heavily into equilateral humour here.

  114. says

    Hi Kitty! Have some hugs, bacon and chocolate. No, we are not thinking that you are whining. In my case I’m thinking that’s typical depressive thoughts and you need hugs and a therapist. And maybe exercise, sunshine and drugs but consult your doctor on the drugs bit.

    Yeah, fat-shaming kids is deeply counter-productive. Way to give kids eating disorders. Kids actually grow at variable rates and some put on a bit of puppy fat before growth spurts.

    I’m also bitterly amused at how the “oh noes tobacco and alcohol make low weight babies!!” panic, was followed shortly after by the “oh noes birth weights are increasing zomg obeeeeeesity” panic. What exactly were they expecting would follow from a successful public health campaign against smoking and drinking?

  115. opposablethumbs says

    @ Kitty

    I know half of you are thinking it.

    No. Not even a fraction of a bit.

    I’m sorry you feel that bad right now, and I really hope you’re out of the pit soon. {{hugs if you want ‘em}} and beverage of your choice via USB, stat (hot chocolate? Nice Cup of Tea? A little something for the blood sugar levels, might not help but I guess it won’t hurt)

  116. Lies Down to Reason says

    Feels weird saying “welcome” to Thunk when I’ve barely been delurked two days myself, so I’ll say “hi”.

    @Ing, as a kid I never had any opportunities to watch Shakespeare on stage, so I discovered him through reading and got to love it. Annotated versions helped me learn the Elizabethan slang, etc., and there was a book I found in the library (can’t remember title or author) that helped me to fathom the plots. I remember being in a class where we had to read Romeo and Juliet aloud, and I was the only kid who understood what I was saying and put emotion into the words, like I was acting. Even the teacher looked at me funny. :-)

    But I’ve always learned better through reading than by watching or hearing. Things just stick with me more that way.

  117. thunk says

    @170:

    Lol… we were all new one day. Me today.

    And to Kitty: Ouch. Have my sympathies and cookies. I wish you best.

  118. says

    Giliell:

    That’s why I am proposing a “who cares”.

    It’s easier for adults to say than for children to absorb, even when the adults in question are the children’s parents. Kristin can only do so much to shield her kids from the fat-shaming. I think that fighting back against it in any way logistically possible is better than just ignoring it.

  119. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    I keep waiting on the flyer from my daughter’s school that will give tips on cultivating healthy skepticism. Or a responsible attitude toward consumption. Or basic math skills*. But nope. We get the healthy eating pamphlets too. And invitations to Pop Warner pee-wee football and the Good News Club.

    *Completely OT, but I find that my child is actually fairly receptive to discussing pretty basic** number theory. I think its odd that they begin to teach children to add and subtract before they even know what numbers mean.
    **OK. Really basic. She thinks I’m lying about negative numbers…and she still can’t seem to get over the idea that numbers are only used for counting objects.

  120. Louis says

    Katherine Lorraine,

    Nasty. I wouldn’t wish depression on my worst enemy. You have my full sympathies and every USB luxury item I can fling through the tubes.

    And for the record, I do not think, and never will think, anyone with depression is whining. Least of all you.

    Louis

  121. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    It’s easier for adults to say than for children to absorb, even when the adults in question are the children’s parents. Kristin can only do so much to shield her kids from the fat-shaming. I think that fighting back against it in any way logistically possible is better than just ignoring it.

    Word. We just present it for what it is. We have pointed out to our child that her mother, grandmother, aunts, teachers, and our friends are 1)awesome people and 2)come in lots of shapes and sizes. I don’t know imagine that our influence will always be as strong as it is now, so we take every opportunity to talk about fat-shaming* that we can.

    *And really all kinds of other things. We are especially ardent in teaching her to be wary of people who want to influence her choices.

  122. says

    Kat:
    I’m glad to hear that you’ve gotten some good advice. In the meantime: *coffee with booze!*

    In other news, I ♥ ThinkGeek. I found gifts for my mom for Mother’s Day and she’s not even a geek!

    Happy May Day, all. (Although, considering America’s contempt for its workers, it feels kind of weird to say that.) I bought all of my guys at work gift certificates for lunch– it was the best I could do. :-/

  123. says

    I have Gardner’s Grendel, read it and liked it. Different books for different folks and all.

    Kat Lorraine, you know I’d say if I thought you were whining, you’re fine. Depression is awful and I think you need a therapist who specializes in trans issues, too.

  124. Nutmeg says

    *hugs* and *puppies* to Katherine. I hope you can find a therapist you’re more comfortable with soon.

    —–

    Re: kids and food

    My problem with what kids are taught about food is that there isn’t a lot of middle ground. On one side, there are those who worry about obesity and give kids the impression they should only be eating carrot sticks and exercising 5 hours a day. On the other side, there are those who worry about giving kids eating disorders and therefore don’t talk at all about the importance of regular exercise and decent food.

    I don’t hear a lot (outside of spaces like this) of people telling kids that they should eat reasonably healthy and be reasonably active. Or that it’s good to be in the “approved” weight range, but you can still be quite fit and healthy with a few extra pounds. Or that people’s natural body shapes and sizes vary.

    I tend to have trouble with moderation, and when I was a teenager I would have benefited from hearing a balanced viewpoint. I don’t think I ever did, though.

  125. Lies Down to Reason says

    I hate it when people refer to crying or any other expression of sadness or despair (whether caused by clinical depression or not) as “whining”. It’s a way to shut you up and feel superior. I’d even submit that it’s a form of ableism.

    It shouldn’t be used to shut yourself up, either. Shutting up is absolutely the last thing a depressed person should do.

    While I’m at it, I also can’t stand the term “emo”.

  126. opposablethumbs says

    @ Antiochus Epiphanes #174 re negative numbers – I remember one thing that went down well when the Spawn were little was an idea that ocurred to me (and probably to a zillion other people before, of course) to draw them a set of steps going down into the swimming pool. (sort of instead of the number line they use in school – but steps were fine because we were only using whole numbers at this point anyway). Water level is zero, but you can keep going down the steps as they go underwater; it seemed to help with the notion of negativity, and it helped with adding and subtracting various combinations of positive and negative numbers as we walked the pencil up or down the steps not forgetting to step on the zero step that was just on a level with the waves (of course we had to have waves, what’s a swimming pool without them).

    Any good?

  127. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    I totally agree, Lies Down. Then there’s the pressure to always “think positive” and never, ever grieve. Even though grief is a process and an important one at that.
    IIRC, there is some evidence that suppressing grief can lead to psychological problems.

  128. says

    Lies Down to Reason, well, we do get people here who do show up to whine on a regular basis, it’s their raisin date. We also get chronic complainers.

    As for depression, life sadness and such, no, that’s not whining. However, it sure as hell can feel like whining to a person who is depressed, sad or dealing with difficult life issues. Sometimes, a person needs a bit of reassurance that they aren’t simply whining and that they aren’t being a burden on those who care for them.

    When I finally dealt with all the things that had happened to me, I was in my late 20s and I *had* to talk almost constantly about those things for close to a decade. I felt more suicidal during that time of my life than I had as a child. There’s a deep feeling of “I should be over this shit” / “I’m tired of this shit” / “I’m fucking confused” / “I don’t want to deal with this” / “The few people who love me are tired of me and they’re going to leave or stop caring” / “What in the fuck is wrong with me” / “All I can do is talk about myself“/ – and that’s by no means the full list.

    Reassurance is crucial during such a process, and it does no good to accidentally shame a person by remonstrating about their own sense that they are whining.

  129. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    The “be happy!” rhetoric is especially appalling when it surrounds sick people.

    “Smile! Your cancer is ONLY stage III!” “Be happy! Yes, it is inoperable/incurable, but you’ve got your family here, and they would feel bad if you got upset!”

    Or:

    “Oh, don’t be sad about your sick baby. Put on a brave face for them!”

    Horrifying, in my opinion.

  130. thunk says

    186:

    Yea, I never really like being happy. My parents always say, “Stop crying! Do you want me to buy a dress for you?” Apparently, young men can NEVER express any non-macho emotion, even when I’m stressed out or mildly depressed, as I often am. Sigh.

    Yes, it’s crunch time here, but I’m getting out of this, thankfully. Summer is in a month.

  131. says

    @Rorschach

    It’s a matter of bedside manner. For one it’s a very emotional issue that’s tied up in shame and stuff that adds to it really doesn’t help. And no constantly harping on people how they’re going to die earlier or get horrible heart diseases doesn’t help either. Shit, every time I think about this or see it I get so incredibly stressed out about health that I can’t bring myself to eat anything and wind up skipping a meal….ugh. There goes lunch today.

    It’s also a problem because people, especially in America I think, see Doctors as basically jerks who don’t care about them and just heartlessly shame them about any problem with their health. It’s not entirely fair maybe but it is a big thing that drives people into the arms of Big Woo.

  132. says

    Hello everyone! I’ve been really busy so I haven’t been on here much (though I have been on PET a bit). I just popped in to tell you all about a project that the Humanists of Florida (which I’m a board member of now!) are doing.

    Teresa MacBain recently came out as an atheist and lost her job as a Methodist pastor. We’re trying to raise some money for her because she hasn’t be able to find a job yet. If you’re willing and able, please consider donating. My article about it is here and the ChipIn page is here.

  133. says

    Home for a few minutes in the middle of the day… not caught up… but…

    Your daughter donated only the alarm clock. :)

    Thanks for helping me maintain my illusions, Carlie! (Actually, I have no illusions and don’t really want to, but it seems “proper” to pretend!)

  134. Richard Austin says

    Bleh. The whole “boys don’t cry”/”be a man” thing really has to die. That shit fucked up my life for a decade, and it took another decade for my mom to finally see what she’d done as “wrong”. Which is even worse, since she adopted a lot of the rest of the feminist mindset automatically but never lost the “man’s man” mentality. It’s weird: my sister was allowed to be strong or sensitive or smart or silly or whatever she wanted to be, but I had to be “the man”.

    thunk, you’re probably in a good place already since you see it for what it is and you’re here talking about it, but don’t ever lose sight of who you are. That’s the other side of feminism: that treating women as equal, competent individuals and not stereotypes must lead to treating everyone as equal, competent individuals and not stereotypes, including men. It’s what MRAs can never seem to understand.

  135. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    E,
    Not only are we expected to be happy all of the time, but boys especially are raised to suppress sadness– it’s just not manly to cry or let yourself grieve.

    Depression has got to be tough enough without the societal baggage attached.

    YMMV with this. I don’t remember ever feeling better after a cry as a child. Both my older sister and I were disciplined to repress that instinct*, and at least as an older child/adolescent, that served me well. I don’t even have that instinct anymore, but I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. It is what it is. I’m emotionally repressed, and alright with it.

    *I’m not sure that the reasoning behind this was all that sound. Or even technically “reasoning”…we were oldest children in a large family and had responsibilities and shit.

  136. says

    Here’s something interesting, from The Tell-Tale Brain.

    Anytime you watch someone doing something, the neurons that your brain would use to do the same thing become active – as if you yourself were doing it. If you see a person being poked with a needle, your pain neurons fire away as though you were being poked. It is utterly fascinating, and it raises some interesting questions. What prevents you from blindly imitating every action you see? Or from literally feeling someone else’s pain?

    In the case of motor mirror neurons, one answer is that there may be frontal inhibitory circuits that suppress the automatic mimicry when it is inappropriate. In a delicious paradox, this need to inhibit unwanted or impulsive actions may have been a major reason for the evolution of free will. Your left inferior parietal lobe constantly conjures up vivid images of multiple options for action that are available in any given context, and your frontal cortex suppresses all but one of them. Thus it has been suggested the “free won’t” may be a better term than free will.

    I like the concept of free won’t.

    X-posted to TZT.

  137. thunk says

    @ Caine, 192:

    Yup, I can hang in there. I only visit my parents on weekends, though. (It’s a residential school). It’s the idiots here that usually bother me.

  138. says

    Richard:

    Bleh. The whole “boys don’t cry”/”be a man” thing really has to die. That shit fucked up my life for a decade, and it took another decade for my mom to finally see what she’d done as “wrong”.

    It doesn’t just happen to boys, though. Happened to me when I cried when I was 3 years old. A put me in front of a mirror and told me repeatedly to look at how ugly I was when I cried. Worked a treat, I didn’t cry again for decades. I still rarely cry, and it’s never much more than wet eyes and possibly an escaped tear.

  139. carlie says

    Caine, every time you tell a story about your upbringing I’m stunned that you clawed yourself up out of it to become such an amazing person. You got moxie. And guts. And a finely-honed bullshit detector.

  140. says

    Esteleth, sounds like you need to read some Barbara Ehrenreich.

    Audley: What Carlie said. Give him a hug for me too.

    Thunk:

    My parents always say, “Stop crying! Do you want me to buy a dress for you?”

    JFC, Thunk, that sucks. I’m sorry.

    Ing:

    And no constantly harping on people how they’re going to die earlier or get horrible heart diseases doesn’t help either.

    And in fact all that harping on ZOMG FAT!! can be harmful, even fatal, to fat patients. The most recent letter there makes my blood boil.

  141. Lies Down to Reason says

    @Caine, 184

    Lies Down to Reason, well, we do get people here who do show up to whine on a regular basis, it’s their raisin date. We also get chronic complainers.

    Yeah, I’ve observed that while I was lurking.

    That kind of thing (bitching about trivial stuff, or complaining about people not agreeing with you or everyone being against you) is my definition of whining. Expressing or describing one’s real depression, or sorrow at a truly shitty situation, or grief from loss is not.

  142. carlie says

    And in fact all that harping on ZOMG FAT!! can be harmful, even fatal, to fat patients.

    And that’s only the ones who actually go to the doctor. Far more don’t; there have been a couple of studies suggesting that at least some of the comorbidities of disease with obesity stem from those people not getting treatment until their cases were so advanced they could no longer ignore it, specifically because going to the doctor made them so depressed from the fat-shaming.

    I’ve been lucky to have doctors who don’t treat fat as the primary cause of every ailment I have; one loose correlation is to look for whether there are any overweight people on staff. If so, then it’s a decent bet that the environment there isn’t seriously fatphobic (at least not to the point as to drive away employees who would be the brunt of it).

  143. says

    AE,
    Of course everyone is going to be different, but I doubt that for most people supressing feelings (especially sadness) is going to be good or beneficial for their overall mental health.

    Caine,
    *hugs* Carlie’s exactly right– “moxie” is the perfect word to describe you.

    Thunk,
    That situation sucks. The “buy you a dress” bit is just… gah. Wrong on too many fucking levels to even count.

  144. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Daisy, I have read that book, and I agree with like 99% of it.

    Caine, I am similarly impressed by your trajectory out of the bullshit of your history.

    Of course, it also breaks my heart because I know someone who has a similar story and who took a different trajectory – and for the longest time I took that as a given, because it wasn’t like there were any other options, right?

  145. thunk says

    Audley et al.: Yes; it is wrong. Somehow, I still like coming back on weekends. It’s more of a ceasefire nowadays.

    Carlie: Caine’s got moxie, I totally agree. Probably wouldn’t have made it out with my sanity intact if I’d been in that situation. Or, as in our school, she has plenty of swag. :)

  146. says

    Esteleth:

    The “be happy!” rhetoric is especially appalling when it surrounds sick people.

    I agree… but it’s a bit more nuanced, because focusing on the positive really can sometimes be a mind-saving (if not life-saving) strategy.

    I certainly found it so when my daughter was fighting brain cancer. I’m not talking about plastering on a fake smile (though I’m not sure that’s always the wrong strategy, either), I’m talking about what I used to call not borrowing sorrow from the future.

    She might die… she might be horribly damaged by her treatment… she might never have children… she might… she might… she might…. No! Do we know what challenges face us today? Are we doing what we can to meet those challenges? Good; then let’s stop worrying about the unknown challenges of tomorrow and try to find what happiness we can before the next wave hits.

    False cheer is usually counterproductive, I agree, but despair can be as real an enemy as the disease itself in these situations, and it must be resisted.

    Or that, at least, was my experience.

    Got to go back to the office now; I’ll check in this evening.

  147. leighshryock says

    @Katherine:

    Depression is nothing to be ashamed of. Worked through, yes, but nothing to be ashamed of.

    I hope you get the help you’re needing with your trans issues, and I know I sure can’t help in any way there. Lack of any experience, either in helping others cope with it or coping myself, so…

    On the subject of depression, this video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UI-YvrHZVvk

    Really does a good job of explaining my feelings on the issue. Partially because they’re primarily shaped by that video after seeing it.

  148. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    BD, I’m not denying that despair is bad and should be avoided.

    What I am complaining about is the LOUD messages that sick people get to NEVER show that they are sad. When I was being treated for cancer, I talked with a woman recovering from a mastectomy who said that she was scolded for expressing sadness over her illness. Not being despondent, not despairing. Just saying, “This sucks.”

  149. says

    Audley:

    The “buy you a dress” bit

    I gotta say, if that had been directed towards me and I was male, I would have immediately visited some shops or gone online and found a very expensive dress, then gone back to the folks and said “About that dress? This one, size x. Thanks” Of course, that’s just me.

    Esteleth:

    Of course, it also breaks my heart because I know someone who has a similar story and who took a different trajectory – and for the longest time I took that as a given, because it wasn’t like there were any other options, right?

    Well, I won’t say there aren’t other options or outcomes, obviously there are, however, I will say that most people won’t come out that way. The devastation is total (GenFury, J_A_L and I had a chat about that here.)

    Bottom line, I’m lucky. I’m lucky the suicide attempts when I was 8 and 10 didn’t succeed, I’m lucky I decided the odds were good I’d get caught if I did murder people, I’m lucky I’m not an addictive personality and I’m lucky I didn’t manage to catch a killer STD. I’m also beyond lucky that Mister walked into my life.

    Even with all that, I’m a supremely fucked up person. I will never, ever work right or in a way that is considered to be normal. That is what took me the longest to come to terms with and that’s simply a dealbreaker for a lot of people.

  150. says

    Carlie:

    I’ve been lucky to have doctors who don’t treat fat as the primary cause of every ailment I have; one loose correlation is to look for whether there are any overweight people on staff.

    I’ve been going to one practice for primary care for well over a decade because they’re good on issues of, among other things, weight and sexuality. For a while, they did have this jerk on staff who ordered unnecessary tests for me because my blood pressure had spiked — if she had fucking paid attention, she’d have realized it was because of the medication I was then on — but she left, that was years ago, and she’s really the only jerk I’ve ever encountered there.

    Bill, if “resisting despair” worked for you, that’s great, but not everybody is capable of doing that. Depression, in fact, robs you of that ability.

  151. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    *hugs Kitty* You’re not whining. You’re suffering, and you have a right to that. I know you feel alone, but we really do care about you a lot.

  152. birgerjohansson says

    Caine: “I have Gardner’s Grendel, read it and liked it. Different books for different folks and all”

    I read that book in the eighties. It is the darkest book I have actually enjoyed, because of the dark humour -especially in the dialogue between Grendel and the dragon.

  153. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    I fucking hate my dysthymia. The depression is not deep enough that it keeps me from not doing anything but it sure as shit colors everything I do. I was offered a prescription for prozac but I declined, hoping that a change in the condition of my life would bring about the cure.

    I guess I am not positive enough and do not smile enough. I laugh plenty but most of are the sardonic kind.

    And, what is funny, this is more about myself than I usually reveal.

  154. thunk says

    Caine:

    Yup. I probably wouldn’t do so… somewhat uncomfortable with feminine things. Probably a holdover from my upbringing. But that’s just me.

    Swag: It is everything, and it is nothing. (Also extremely cool).

  155. says

    Caine:

    Even with all that, I’m a supremely fucked up person. I will never, ever work right or in a way that is considered to be normal.

    This is not to minimize the damage you’ve sustained, but what is “considered to be normal” in modern Western society, especially U.S. society, is an extremely narrow range of the human condition, functional or otherwise.

    You’ve made a peaceful and productive life for yourself in which you’ve also taken the time and effort to help others and agitate for change. This is a lot more than many, many people who are in the “normal” range accomplish. If you’ve had lucky breaks, well, so have they, including in many cases not having grown up in an abusive family or never having been through a rape and attempted murder.

  156. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    AE,
    Of course everyone is going to be different, but I doubt that for most people supressing feelings (especially sadness) is going to be good or beneficial for their overall mental health.

    I find that there is a real disconnect between the way that I feel and how others think I feel. Until just this moment, I was under the impression that I hadn’t learned to suppress sadness, just tears. But now I think I’m wrong about that.

    I find that I have very little use for most of the things that I feel…I have emotions, but I really don’t know what to do about them, and if they seem to interfere with goals, I more-or-less write them off as nuisance. There were things that I used to be sad about that I no longer am, because I just kind of, ignored how I felt about them. And try as I might, I can’t feel sad about them anymore. Similarly, there were things I used to enjoy that I gave up. I don’t miss them.

    I don’t often talk about this stuff.

    What is a healthy response to sadness? How do other people get out from under it?

    Sorry. I am not unhappy, but I think that the way that I deal with things is maybe not normal. Not wrong, maybe, but sort of…in a way that may prevent empathy. So maybe wrong.

  157. says

    Thunk:

    I probably wouldn’t do so… somewhat uncomfortable with feminine things.

    Hahahahahaha. Oh my. You wouldn’t have to wear it. The reason I would have done that would be to shove a dagger right up the parental asses, let them think that “yep, I’m perfectly okay with a dress” and give them something to stew in. I would have folded up the dress and put it somewhere safe or stuck in the closet, allowing it to be a symbol of strength and independence.

    By the time I was 15, I had gone full court nasty. I was fighting for my life.

  158. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Caine, just wanted to let you know, I did see that message you left me last night about Kenny. I did follow the links to his book site. But I have nothing to say that I already said dozens of times before when Kenny was my favorite punching bag.

  159. thunk says

    Caine, 229: The next time they drag that canard out, I’ll keep that in mind.

    Chigau, 228: Normal? What’s that?

  160. chigau (副) says

    thunk
    I wish I knew what They™ meant by “normal”.
    Usually is seems to mean “average”.
    *shudder*

  161. says

    Daisy, yes, I know that and I appreciate everything you said. I don’t generally detail all the ways in which I am fucked up. That’s just stuff I tend not to talk about, to anyone. A few members of The Horde™ know a bit more. Let’s just say I have more than few sociopathic tendencies.

  162. says

    Rorschach:

    This sheet may not be required for you to know how to feed your kids healthy food, but it may be a very helpful thing for a lot of other parents

    Bullcrap. “Cut out everything with the slightest bit of fat and sugar and your kids will just LOVE having their diet changed abruptly and in ways many people associate with tasting less good because VEGETABLES ARE FUN” is never, ever, ever going to help anyone form more healthy eating habits. “Cream is not justifiable even on special occasions like Thanksgiving” (Thanksgiving, for fucks sake, the ultimate American feast day!) “and summer picnics are no excuse for a sin like mayo” is never ever ever going to help anyone have a more healthy relationship with food.

    Daisy Cutter:

    American culture is full of body-shaming, especially for girls and especially for girls who aren’t slender, coupled with a Calvinist rejection of pleasure in food or in anything else

    Exactly! Pleasure in food is not good enough. We have a moral duty to Eat Healthy ™ and we should be prepared to sacrifice enjoying what we eat for it. It Is Good For Us. Now finish your raw kale sprinkled with delightful lemon juice, it’s a fun and fresh substitute for pie!

    Giliell:

    Most people, big and small really like raw veggies

    Sure, so do I. But they’re not chips, and if you tell someone “you can’t have chips because they’re Bad For You, you should eat raw veggies instead” guess which is going to seem more attractive. It’s not the idea of serving vegetables instead of chips at a given meal. It’s the idea that I’m not even supposed to be serving chips and dip on a fun occasion like a summer picnic.

    Nutmeg:

    On the other side, there are those who worry about giving kids eating disorders and therefore don’t talk at all about the importance of regular exercise and decent food

    Lecturing kids, especially, about exercise and food is useless. They cannot control those things. Lecturing parents is only marginally more useful at best, because even if we have the ability and interest to cook fresh whole foods and go out for hikes, the condescending, scolding tone puts us off. It manages to make flying kites and eating fruit sound like punishment and deprivation instead of things worth doing in their own right.

    Do you know my kid’s elementary school makes the children take two laps round the track before they can free play outdoors at recess? Because they have to get EXERCISE. This is the kind of bullshit you get when people place a high priority on “talking to kids about the importance of regular exercise”.

  163. says

    Janine:

    But I have nothing to say that I already said dozens of times before when Kenny was my favorite punching bag.

    Oh, I know. What more is there to say about Kennikins? I thought you’d be amused.

    Thunk, have a dress picked out. Preferably a classic, so it will be around for a while. That way, you can turn on a dime with the comeback. It’s a stylish twist to the dagger thrust. Or, you can just ignore me. Like I said, I’m nasty.

  164. Matt Penfold says

    Exactly! Pleasure in food is not good enough. We have a moral duty to Eat Healthy ™ and we should be prepared to sacrifice enjoying what we eat for it. It Is Good For Us. Now finish your raw kale sprinkled with delightful lemon juice, it’s a fun and fresh substitute for pie!

    I am reminded of that old joke about a man who goes to his doctor and asks how he can live to be well over 100.

    The doctors says, well you must give up eating red meat, avoid dairy products and eat raw or lightly cooked fruit and veg. You must exercise for at least two hours every day. You must only have a small glass of wine a couple of days a week. You must be in bed by 10pm and up by 6am. You must only ever have sex with one women in your life. You must never take any mind altering drugs.

    The man looks at the doctor, and then asks if that will guarantee he lives to be over 100 ?

    Nope, says the doc, but it will sure as hell feel like it.

  165. says

    Good evening
    Ms. Daisy Cutter

    It’s easier for adults to say than for children to absorb, even when the adults in question are the children’s parents. Kristin can only do so much to shield her kids from the fat-shaming. I think that fighting back against it in any way logistically possible is better than just ignoring it.

    I think you missunderstand me and I’m sorry that I didn’t make myself clearer.
    As a parent you have to show it, not say it. Yes, you can only shield your children so much, but in order to show your kid that food is something you shouldn’t become obsessed about either way is not to do it yourself.
    And I know what I’m talking about, I’m fighting with eating disorder on and off constantly.
    So, in order not to teach that to my children by being a role-model (and you always are as a parent) for bad eating behaviour, I have to stop fretting about it. About my food, about their food. Because there is actually no real cause to fret about (with them).
    Therefore, I suggest to relax. Which actually is fighting back.
    If the thing we are opposed against is that people count every calorie and shun and shame certain foods, fighting back means that you don’t count the calories and don’t class things into “good food” and “bad food”.
    I actually hate it when people compliment the kids for eating fruit and veg. For fuck’s sake, those are tasty food, not cod liver oil. People make such a fuss about them eating that stuff that they might actually pick up the messages that they shouldn’t like it and that “healthy food” is what you should only eat with disgust and “bad food” is the stuff you should like. Madness.
    That’s why I refuse to talk about “healthy food”

    Kitty
    Hugs, chocolate and puppy snuggles are coming towards you.

  166. says

    AE,
    That’s the question, isn’t it? What is healthy sadness? I would say that just acknowledging the emotion is healthy, but if that doesn’t work for you (and others), then I’m totally wrong about this (which is okay by me).

    *shrugs* Handle your emotions whatever way works for you. I don’t want to dictate how other’s should feel and if I did, I’m very sorry.

    If you’re not hurting yourself or others, then you’re not wrong at all.

    (For the record, I’m a crier. But that’s just me.)

  167. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    I am depending on genes to life a long life span. I have a lot of relatives on both sides of my family who lived to their eighties and nineties, including one great grandmother who lived to be one hundred and four. I do not smoke, am a moderate drinker but I am overweight.

    We will see what happens.

  168. says

    What is a healthy response to sadness? How do other people get out from under it? … Sorry. I am not unhappy, but I think that the way that I deal with things is maybe not normal. Not wrong, maybe, but sort of…in a way that may prevent empathy. So maybe wrong.

    I really dunno how to answer most of this. And as a caveat, listen, I’m hardly Captain Stable nor Mr. Empathy myself…

    Nor do I play a therapist on TV. But the bit I think I can answer, as to getting out from under it:

    I do it like this: as slowly as I have to. Patiently. A critical coping strategy is: don’t beat up yourself nor start telling yourself you’re failing at this, just ‘cos it’s taking longer then you figured it should, or it feels like one step forward two steps back sometimes–therein lies yet another potential toxic cycle. Bear in mind it’s going to take time. Grief takes time. Physical wounds don’t heal just because you want them to, and the same goes for psychological ones. Cliché alert, but: if you really get hurt, you’re going to have to crawl before you walk, walk before you run. If you really think you can laugh something off, fine, just do, and more power to you. If you’re not so sure, don’t fool yourself. Face up to it, say, yeah, this hurts, and then get back up just as slowly as you think you need to.

    But do get back up. Like I said: feel absolutely free to crawl for a while, if that’s all you got right now. No shame in that at all.

    What really annoys me about that whole ‘Oh, don’t worry, be happy/hey, you’re okay’ attitude people sometimes get is, listen: sometimes people just aren’t. Aren’t even close. And you can’t shame them into being so; that’s just stupid. Stupid saying it to someone else, stupid saying it to yourself. Like I said: some things are going to take time. A doctor who told a guy who just broke his leg to walk it off would be kicked out of the ER and probably out of his profession; same goes for twits who don’t know shit about how bad someone’s hurting telling them, oh, you’re fine. That’s the kind of thing I think you should only be saying if really know them, and you’re damned sure they really are.

  169. carlie says

    Do you know my kid’s elementary school makes the children take two laps round the track before they can free play outdoors at recess? Because they have to get EXERCISE.

    Oh yes. There are lots of good articles around the internets all about how people hate, hate, HATE exercise*, but if you finally realized that there are all kinds of things that are exercise and many of them are fun and if you do them because they are fun instead of because you have to, you end up doing them more often and longer-term. GO FIGURE.

    *I realized this about 15 years ago in early adulthood, but it is still so freeing to know that no one can ever force me to be on a softball or dodgeball team EVER AGAIN. I’ll go jogging or dance or do aerobics or yoga until I fall over, but I am an adult now and no one can make me do team sports SO THERE.

  170. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Oh, wait, I am forget about the lack of benefits that I am entitled to as a citizen of the US.

    That changes things.

  171. Matt Penfold says

    That’s the question, isn’t it? What is healthy sadness? I would say that just acknowledging the emotion is healthy, but if that doesn’t work for you (and others), then I’m totally wrong about this (which is okay by me).

    The criteria often used in psychiatry to differentiate between the feelings of sadness that can be considered normal, such as after bereavement, if is the person is showing no improvement after three weeks.

  172. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    *facepalm*

    That should be “forgetting”.

  173. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    AJ: I think that’s how my wife does it. She’s gotten through some tough times–prolonged periods, I guess, of unhappiness. I try not interfere with whatever it is she’s doing while remaining conspicuously available…so, I never asked, but observed in sort of a stupid way. But she does rise up, if slowly.

  174. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    kristinc; refreshed an giggled again. The scientific name for a thrush is Turdus

    I shit you not!

  175. Nutmeg says

    AE:

    I find that I have very little use for most of the things that I feel…I have emotions, but I really don’t know what to do about them, and if they seem to interfere with goals, I more-or-less write them off as nuisance.

    That’s an exact description of my approach to emotions. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that lots of people (maybe especially in the sciences?) are like this. I look at my emotions as an occasional source of useful data about things that are or aren’t working in my life, but mostly an inconvenience.

    It’s working fine for me, anyway.

    kristinc:

    I saw my first yellow rumped warbler this morning!

    Yay for birds! The first white-throated and Harris sparrows are finally back here. I love white-throated sparrows.

    carlie:

    it is still so freeing to know that no one can ever force me to be on a softball or dodgeball team EVER AGAIN. I’ll go jogging or dance or do aerobics or yoga until I fall over, but I am an adult now and no one can make me do team sports SO THERE.

    R’amen.

  176. says

    Kristinc:
    Yes! The whole concept of fat = immoral makes me want to pull my hair out. (Or, more generally, unhealthy = immoral*.) Treating eating and excersize as moral imperatives doesn’t do anyone a lick of good.

    I’m not a parent, but you know what I think would be awesome? Actual comprehensive health classes that cover everything from hygiene, disease, sex ed, nutrition, etc etc. Giving kids no bullshit, non-shaming information works.

    *Yes, I know. I was one of them damned dirty smokers and IT WAS A MORAL FAILING! OMG!!1

  177. says

    Lawmaker gets only 1 donation after ‘lesbian’ Girls Scouts remark

    An Indiana lawmaker has only received a single donation in the months since he accused the Girl Scouts of becoming a “radicalized organization” that promotes the “homosexual lifestyle.”

    The latest campaign finance report indicates that Republican state Rep. Bob Morris received only one donation after his February remarks, according to the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette. The single $5,000 contribution came from the right-leaning Northeast Indiana PAC for Better Government on April 10.
    [...]

  178. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    AE, the American Robin is Turdus americanus.

    What a misnomer! I was thinking something more along the lines of Glen Beck.

  179. opposablethumbs says

    @ Bill D #216 – wholly shit, Bill, I had no idea. I knew you were (very rightly) proud of her; having faced a prospect like that must make celebrating her achievements incredibly intense.

    What Caine has is – well in these parts people might say she’s got a lot of bottle, but I really don’t think the word is adequate.

    Have I mentioned I hang out here because there are people around whom I admire and from whom I try to learn?

  180. thunk says

    At several:

    Enjoy the birding… I don’t generally do this stuff. I’m somewhat of an astronomy buff, and therefore go out more at night.

    As for exercise, I didn’t usually do so until recently. Now, I’m starting to get used to, and enjoy, it. Long walks at night are also quite awesome. At least until curfew (sigh). These laws make me rage.

  181. thunk says

    Dhorvath:

    It’s not home… It’s just either a paranoia by the city I attend school in, or the school itself. Either way, it’s “ZOMG! Teh teeeenagers are going out at night and doing scary things! Like gangs!”

    It tends to rudely interrupt my talking to friends, who live in other halls, and my night sky observing :(

  182. says

    Oh, our second Nude Photo Revolutionary calendar arrived – on the front of the envelope is a large blue stamp stating “Missent to Kenya”. Think I’m going to have keep it. :D

  183. thunk says

    Caine:
    Yes, that’s basically the reason I’m here. Hang around, learn things, discard bad opinions and replace them with good ones. The constant discussion makes me happy.

  184. Dhorvath, OM says

    Home was a poor choice of words then. Nothing bad happens on campus? Nothing bad happens in dorms? Nothing bad happens at the campsite? It’s all the same BS.

  185. thunk says

    Caine:

    “Missent to Kenya”.

    Oh wow, that is an epic fail. I’m glad you got it though.

    P.S. I figured out how to blockquote.

  186. thunk says

    Dhorvath:

    Yeah; cause nothing bad happens in my halls, save the extreme density of misogynists. But that doesn’t count, of course. Think of TEH GANGS!

  187. says

    Rev. BDC:

    And I don’t care if it is Tim Burton.

    In fairness, it’s supposed to be considerably better than the book. You know Tim Burton has done a movie out of Dark Shadows, too, right? I’m kind of bummed about that, because I was a fan of Jonathan Frid’s back in the day.

  188. carlie says

    And I don’t care if it is Tim Burton.

    I kind of want to see that. And also his other vampire movie with Johnny Depp.
    *shame*

  189. cicely. Just cicely. says

    *hugs* for Lynna.

    Lately I’ve been considering how I will customise a walker, come the day. Seems like it’ll be a bit more complicated than the quad-cane, and involve more octopuses. And stuff.

    Plans for blinging up the wheelchair tend to crash on the reefs of “must be able to withstand careless handling and being stuffed in the trunk”.
    -
    That Dickens thing with Miss Haversham the crazy cake lady (aha! Great Expectations! That’s the title!) was dull, dreary, dire, and probably a lot of other uncomplimentary words beginning with ‘d’. Never again!

    High school English assignments left me allergic to “Great Literachoor”.
    -

    It’s Monday night, which means it’s time to eat a burrito the size of my head.

    As long as you don’t say, “Make me a burrito the size of my head”. Classic Wish spell blunder.
    -

    Fucking for-profit healthcare system.

    Can’t be said often, or loudly, enough.
    And *hugs* for Jessa. Sorry about your dad.
    -

    If I had read The Hobbit first, I would not have read LotR.
    (I’ve read LotR 40-50 times, Hobbit maybe 2.5)

    Yeah; those numbers sound about right.
    -

    I read Grendel.
    I remember nothing.

    Me, too.
    Me, too.
    -
    Welcome in, thunk!
    -

    Bacon should crunch.

    Yes.
    -

  190. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    It seems that I forgot how to trademark.

  191. Richard Austin says

    Okay, so, two things.

    1) BPPV seems to have faded. This means I was able to sleep last night without waking up from vertigo, which in turn means that sleeping well combined with (I think) locating a couple of songs from someone I used to hang out in a coffee shop with 15 years ago meant I had a really awesome “gay romance movie” dream for most of the night, complete with “showing up the bullies”, the beau’s dad giving a “I don’t understand this gay thing but if it’s love, I support it” speech, and the kiss on stage to the cheers of the whole school (I think it was a college, because everyone was an adult, but it’s a dream so who knows). I so did not want to get out of bed this morning.

    2) Setting up a guest room – queen sized bed or full sized bed? It’s not a large room – maybe 14×12 or so – but I also don’t know that I’m going to put a whole lot into it. Opinions?

  192. Richard Austin says

    Janine:

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    There. You can take as many as you need. I’ve got more.

  193. says

    Audley, that’s why I’m so bummed about Dark Shadows. The reason I couldn’t get a ride home from my HS, which was 11.5 miles away (one way) was because my grandmother & one great-grandmother were addicted to Dark Shadows.

    I caught the last half every day by the time I got home. Now, Dark Shadows was one of the cheesiest soap operas ever, with incredibly cheap production values, but Jonathan Frid did try to bring some subtlety and dignity to the role of Barnabas Collins. From what I’ve seen of the trailers, Burton & Depp have tossed any sort of subtlety out the window and over the cliff. Bleah.

  194. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It seems that I forgot how to trademark.

    Ampersand-trade-semicolon, symbols minus the dashes.

    Pullet Patrol™.

  195. Richard Austin says

    Dr. Audley

    (Can you all tell that I’m avoiding work?)

    Not at all, no sir ma’am, *peeks at email, shudders, goes back to TET* no avoiding here…

  196. thunk says

    Richard Austin:

    I really like my dreams; especially when my sleep schedule is messed up, I sometimes have very good, somewhat coherent movie dreams (plot and everything). They’re excessively detailed as well; e.g. random background posters have actual text on them. Never had that one though.

    As for the guest room, whatever floats your boat. If I was in that situation, I’d go for the smaller bed, I clutter stuff a lot.

  197. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Now listen to that asshole that I linked to.

    Fucking Rage!

  198. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Heh. The last movie starring Johnny Depp that I watched was Dead Man.

  199. says

    2) Setting up a guest room – queen sized bed or full sized bed? It’s not a large room – maybe 14×12 or so – but I also don’t know that I’m going to put a whole lot into it. Opinions?

    Bedcouch that can be made into a regular sized bed

  200. chigau (副) says

    re Dark Shadows
    I used to watch with my grandmother, an old Hungarian peasant with first-hand knowledge of witches.
    She did not speak English and I spoke no Hungarian so our conversations while watching were unusual.
    I just watched the trailer.
    I’m NOT going.

  201. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Back in 2000, in Chicago, there was an improv trope that did improv plays based on Dark Shadows.

  202. says

    Caine,
    That’s what worked for him. Before that, his highest grossing movie was Chocolat, so if he wanted to be a super star, acting like a drunk Keith Richards* was apparently the way to go.

    (To be fair, his cameo on Life’s Too Short was pretty excellent. I’d Youtube it, but I’m on my phone and that shit never works for me.)

    *Or, you know, acting like Keith Richards in general.

  203. Richard Austin says

    thunk:

    I grew up in the 80′s, so a lot of my dreams could be John Hughes movies. I’m also not in many of my dreams, which seems to shock people. This one I was in, though, mostly because the beau was cute and I wanted to be (I also do lucid dreaming).

    -

    Caine/gilliel:

    Bedcouch that can be made into a regular sized bed

    Erm, that’s kind of the question – what’s “regular”? I went from a twin to a queen, but I’m also 6’2″ and still have to sleep diagonally on it. I suppose, as a guest room, “a bed” is probably sufficient to meet courtesy standards regardless of size, but I’m trying to think about what other people would be most comfortable with.

    Closet’s pretty big – one of the shorter walls. I can easily fit a desk, dresser, night stand, etc. in the room with even a queen sized, but probably not much else. My ex-roomie had a huge desk (like, 4×8 or so) with his queen and a bookshelf, but it was pretty chaotic and cramped.

    It’s also possible (likely?) that I’m OCDing this :)

  204. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Nub question, but what’s the pullet patrol™?

    A) Patricia’s name for her free-range pullets who lay expensive green/blue(?) eggs for her to sell.

    B) Comic relief at the Pharyngula Saloon and Spanking Parlor.

  205. carlie says

    BPPV seems to have faded. This means I was able to sleep last night without waking up from vertigo,

    Oh, that’s good. I had a month or so of inexplicable vertigo awhile back, and it was the most annoying, disorienting thing I’ve ever experienced. I can’t even imagine it hitting while already lying down still.

    (Can you all tell that I’m avoiding work?)

    I’m supposed to be grading finals! Note all of my posts today.

  206. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    For some reason, this reminds me of when Spike was freshly chipped and kept captive in Giles’ apartment. He became addicted to Passions.

    Come on! It’s telly time! Passions is on. Timmy’s stuck in the bloody well!

  207. carlie says

    I went from a twin to a queen, but I’m also 6’2″ and still have to sleep diagonally on it.

    Spouse is 6’1″ and ok with a queen – are you sure you’re not taller than 6’2″? :) College dorms have notoriously long beds (regular sheets do not fit), so I assume that such things are for sale somewhere, and must not be too expensive if residence halls go for them. Overall comfort may be another thing entirely, however.

  208. says

    Richard:

    Closet’s pretty big – one of the shorter walls. I can easily fit a desk, dresser, night stand, etc. in the room with even a queen sized, but probably not much else.

    If that’s the case, go with queen size. Generally, full/double size is considered ‘regular’.

    It’s your guest room, you know who is most likely to end up in it, so think of the potential guests and that will be your best guideline.

  209. David Marjanović says

    Gah. I wonder if I should give up on trying to catch up.

    I just spent all day (well, from early afternoon onwards; it’s now 9:15 in the evening) catching up with the Krauss concession thread and added 11 1/2 laptop screens to it. This includes the time for making cocoa, cooking, eating, making tea twice, washing almost all my underwear and (separately) a bedsheet, hanging it all up to dry, going for a walk in the park, getting the dust off most of the floor, especially the bathroom which was getting unusable, and wiping the bathroom floor.

    It was summer again today. There even was a little thunderstorm just before sunset.

    I had time for all that because today is, of course, a holiday.

    There are still a few very important things of unclear urgency that I still can’t bring myself to actually start…

  210. David Marjanović says

    Beds and mattresses aren’t sold as “regular” over here, but by actual measurements, such as 90 x 200 (like mine), 100 x 200, 100 x 180 or 140 x 200 (I think that’s a double bed). Of course all in cm.

    (180 would be long enough for me if I’d lie on my back. But 200 seems to be much more common anyway.)

    I’m also not in many of my dreams, which seems to shock people.

    In some of mine I’m more like a narrator, but that’s rare (and probably inconsistent within those dreams).

  211. Pteryxx says

    (and I double-l’d wrong. Sorry Giliell.)

    Giliell lacks gills, but does have an ell, if that helps. *flees*

  212. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Remember, before the USSR turned it into a marching phallic display, May Day was an anarchist and labor holiday.

    For the more authoritarian minded, this day is Law Day.

  213. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I didn’t realize it was a book.

    And while I’m all for interesting premises, making Abraham Lincoln a vampire hunter in the midst of our current popular culture Vampire overload makes me want to be very mean to little tiny kittens. Maybe even sternly scold them.

    The Johnny Depp movie however, for some reason didn’t trigger my loathe of Vampire Overload. Strange that.

    I actually want to see that movie.

  214. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    I saw my first yellow rumped warbler this morning! Had to stop everything and ID it, very striking. Its warble sounds a bit like a McDonald’s straw being pumped up and down in the lid, squeebysqueebysqueebysqueebysqueeby.

    In a wonderful coincidence, the babby and I saw one of these yesterday from the front deck, hopping around in some ornamental cherry trees. I had no idea what it was called, and that was bothering me, so thank you.

    Also, the ex phoned me this morning describing a ‘pretty bird’ that sounded like the yellow rumped warbler. Likely the same one?

  215. thunk says

    lol. Beds here aren’t long enough for me either. I’m about 6′ 2″, and my feet stick out, touching the other end of the frame. I don’t really mind, though.

  216. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    marching phallic display

    Sounds like every one of my mornings….

    Mrs. BigDumbChimp is convinced I’m 13 years old.

  217. David Marjanović says

    In civilised land, yes. Here, no.

    That’s why I mentioned it and added “of course”.

  218. says

    Rev. BDC:

    I didn’t realize it was a book.

    It’s part of a whole series, stared with Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, which was quite enjoyable. I wish they’d decided to turn that one into a movie.

  219. David Marjanović says

    Giliell lacks gills, but does have an ell, if that helps. *flees*

    *catches*
    *hugs*
    ^_^

    Sounds like every one of my mornings…

    Sleep more.

    “Morning wood” occurs several times every night, or so I’ve read. There’s speculation that it ensures enough oxygen is provided. If you wake up while still having morning wood, or even get it only later, your biological night isn’t over yet.

    My observation of a sample of 1 is fully consistent with this.

  220. David Marjanović says

    Cocoa shell tea.

    Incredulously, I’ve boiled one bag four times so far. The latest result was only yellow anymore, and quite transparent, but still had the unmistakeable mouth-filling smell/taste of cocoa. I think I’ll boil it a fifth time tomorrow, just to find out when it finally gets too weak.

  221. thunk says

    David Marjanovic:

    It’s usually good advice to sleep more, but between loads of homework, early classes, and a later-than-adult circadian rhythm, it becomes well nigh impossible to do so. I don’t have this as bad as other people I know, thankfully.

  222. says

    @Rev

    I understand your rage at Vampire Overload. For me it was True Blood, which IMO is Twilight with actual porn (not that big a fan and am not very impressed by the world building). I liked GDT’s Strain for actually returning Vampires to villainous monsters. I mean in Twilight and True Blood they ARE villainous monsters but at least we’re not pretending otherwise anymore by glorifying kind-a-rapey-sociopathy. And no I probably wouldn’t be SO hard on True Blood if it wasn’t for Twilight and all the other vampire fleas.

  223. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Argblebarglebargl

    I have 56 6-well plates and 14 24-well plates of cells.

    It takes me 3 hours to just feed them. Passaging them takes even longer.

    But! I have tea. So life is good.

  224. says

    At last week’s Awakening 2012 conference, phony “ex-terrorist” Kamal Saleem not only detailed a treacherous scheme by President Obama to use immigration reform to legalize terrorism, but also uncovered a liberal plot to use the Supreme Court’s 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade to “bring Sharia law liberally in our face.” Responding to co-panelist Frank Gaffney’s specious allegation that there have been anywhere between fifty to seventy instances where American judges used Sharia law to decide cases, Saleem blamed the Religious Right’s most hated ruling on the supposed proliferation of Sharia law in America.

    Uh…say the fuck what?

  225. says

    Not to shame the mentally ill but I honestly want to know; if someone said that about the Soviet Union would people be thinking anything other than “we need to get this guy some help?” Why is it different? Is it just contemporary politics redefining what is and isn’t seen as pathological delusional paranoia? Is it because such delusions are so accepted now that you can hold them without actually hindering your own life?

  226. Pteryxx says

    aw, David and Caine, thanks. I’m threadrupt and FTB-rupt after being almost totally and completely offline for several days for Botcon. My BFF and I had an amazingly good time though, got to be in a ginormous room filled with almost every Transformers toy in existence (some of which we bought and played with), we got to discuss and debate continuity with the actual writers and so forth. And, we only spent what we planned on spending! Which is saying a LOT at a collectors’ con.

    Also, out of some 6000 attendees, I spotted FOUR bronies (My Little Pony fans) wearing the rainbow colors. There is overlap!

  227. Hekuni Cat says

    thunk, welcome!

    Kat, *hugs*

    Caine:

    The Mourning Doves are singing. I could just listen to that on a loop, so soothing.

    Me too. A pair of Mourning Doves nests under our deck a couple of times a year, so I hear them at some point almost daily.

  228. Richard Austin says

    A queen bed is 80″ long. I’m 74″ standing, which may be a little more laying down on my back. That, however, only gives 6 inches clearance for a pillow, and would mean I’m right to the edge of the bed (which is hard to manage comfortably with tucked-in sheets). If I’m laying on my stomach, this is obviously not going to work as that adds in 6-8 inches at least.
    #tallpeopleproblems #don’tgetmestartedonbathtubs

  229. thunk says

    Hekuni Cat:

    Well then, hello!

    Richard Austin:

    I feel your pain… except that I loathe tucked-in sheets. Can’t move around enough.

  230. says

    Caine:

    I don’t generally detail all the ways in which I am fucked up. That’s just stuff I tend not to talk about, to anyone.

    Fair enough.

    Kristinc: Right fucking on. Seriously, a healthy relationship with food is a hell of a lot more important than calorie counting. So is a healthy relationship with physical activity. I swear, gym classes kill that as effectively as certain lit classes can kill a love of reading.

    Giliell, thanks for the clarification; I get what you’re saying. I think relaxing about it in front of the kids is great, but I do think you also have to stand up to adults who attempt to push it on them.

    The Sailor, re Bob Morris: BWAHAHA.

    Richard Austin, hooray for sound sleep and pleasant dreams. The size of the guest bed depends on whether you will be hosting single people or couples, and on your budget.

    I agree with Audley that futons are awesome, but I’m coming from it as someone with a compromised back who finds them very supportive. Not all sleeper couches have firm mattresses.

  231. says

    Hekuni Cat:

    A pair of Mourning Doves nests under our deck a couple of times a year, so I hear them at some point almost daily.

    Oooh, nice. I hear them every day, too. We have several nesting pairs on the property, but bunches of them show up to feed on the front deck.

  232. Richard Austin says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter:

    Richard Austin, hooray for sound sleep and pleasant dreams. The size of the guest bed depends on whether you will be hosting single people or couples, and on your budget.

    I agree with Audley that futons are awesome, but I’m coming from it as someone with a compromised back who finds them very supportive. Not all sleeper couches have firm mattresses.

    Yeah, I’m gonna go with the queen. But, I’m doing a pillow-top, the reasoning being that if someone needs a hard mattress for back support they can use my bed (which was one of the hardest mattresses the store sold). I’d get one of those adjustable-hardness ones, but I haven’t won the lottery yet.

    Thanks for the help all :)

  233. David Marjanović says

    Jessa:
    *hugs*

    Seconded. :-( Comment 48 also seconded.

    Now I am told that the only way to have a summer picnic in which I don’t strangle myself with guilt over making my kids ZOMG TEH OBESE is to never serve “mayonnaise-laden” potato or macaroni salad. I should serve broccoli slaw with low-fat dressing instead

    What a waste of broccoli. Broccoli is best boiled, blended, and eaten as a soup. The taste fits well together with pepper.

    Exactly! Pleasure in food is not good enough. We have a moral duty to Eat Healthy ™ and we should be prepared to sacrifice enjoying what we eat for it. It Is Good For Us. Now finish your raw kale sprinkled with delightful lemon juice, it’s a fun and fresh substitute for pie!

    Orthorexia, the pathological obsession with eating healthy and making a religion out of it (with sins, punishment and all that jazz), is… probably in the DSM.

    Do you know my kid’s elementary school makes the children take two laps round the track before they can free play outdoors at recess? Because they have to get EXERCISE.

    HULK SMASH

  234. says

    Kamal Saleem Uncovers Plot to Use Roe v. Wade to Bring in Sharia Law

    I am not stupid enough to even begin to understand this.

    Huh, silly ol’ me thought it was kind of the reverse! Overturning Roe v Wade would help usher in Biblical law! OH wait, maybe it’s Opposite Day!

  235. Richard Austin says

    … Aren’t we a bit overdue for his squidliness? Or are we letting these go on longer since we’re paging now?

  236. cicely. Just cicely. says

    Kitty:

    [...]cause no one would miss me[...]

    Untrue. Vastly, hugely untrue.

    “Kitty’s whining again.” Go ahead and say it I know half of you are thinking it.

    Nope. “Kitty’s having a bad day; we all have ‘em, and she’s got a lot of stress-worthy shit going on. Give her a big *hug* and assure her that we understand.”

    Also, amyoosmint.
    -

    Hey hey! Guess who’s having dinner with everyone’s favorite SpokesGay tonight?

    I haz an envy.
    -
    Caine: what carlie said.
    -

    Or, as in our school, she has plenty of swag. :)

    *suddenly all ears*
    Dibs on the +5 adamantine chain mail of invisibility and flying!
    -
    “Normal” is so variable, and so context-driven, as to be (IMO, YMMV) useless.
    -

  237. says

    The Oklahoma Supreme Court on Monday unanimously ruled that a ballot measure to completely prohibit abortion was “clearly unconstitutional.”

    Thank the gods (pagan, mostly, I bet) for small mercies!

  238. says

    I’ve been working my way out of thread backlog, and saw news about Lynna, and her brief appearance here.

    Just want to stop and send best wishes for a speedy recovery.

  239. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Caine:

    Bottom line, I’m lucky. I’m lucky the suicide attempts when I was 8 and 10 didn’t succeed, I’m lucky I decided the odds were good I’d get caught if I did murder people, I’m lucky I’m not an addictive personality and I’m lucky I didn’t manage to catch a killer STD. I’m also beyond lucky that Mister walked into my life.

    Even with all that, I’m a supremely fucked up person. I will never, ever work right or in a way that is considered to be normal. That is what took me the longest to come to terms with and that’s simply a dealbreaker for a lot of people.

    Sorry for just now responding to this.

    Firstly, I am really glad that you’ve managed to find any healing. I don’t know your full story (and I’m not going to presume to ask), but what little I’ve heard continues to remind me of someone else. This other person found “healing” by accepting the premise that she was hopelessly broken and then accepting Dominionist QF-flavored Christianity. This then led to accepting all the BS that women in that group get, because it’s all she deserved, right?

    In her case, the mister that walked into her life did bring her stability and love (for varying values of love). He was into legalism and liked the idea of being someone who “fixed problems.”

    To say that the above situation ended badly is an understatement. I am glad to say that she is finally addressing her problems. But it has been a long road, and her continued clinging to (a kinder, softer) religion AND to her (somewhat kinder, softer) marriage isn’t helping.

    Sigh.

    Sorry for the rant.

  240. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Niftyatheist, what you are missing is the idea that muslims and atheists are natural allies. I shit you not.

  241. KG says

    Even with all that, I’m a supremely fucked up person. – Caine

    Well, it doesn’t show! I don’t keep an ordered list, but I think you may be the Pharyngulite I most admire – which is saying a lot.

  242. David Marjanović says

    It’s usually good advice to sleep more, but between loads of homework, early classes, and a later-than-adult circadian rhythm, it becomes well nigh impossible to do so.

    I know. I was tired throughout most of school.

    Same here. I tend to wrap myself in the bedcovers, to the chagrin of anyone who happens to be sharing the bed with me.

    I need to be surrounded on all sides. That means wrapping myself in the blanket (with more space around me than in a sleeping bag, but still) or, when it’s too hot for a blanket, the empty cover of a blanket. I suppose people would work as surroundings, too, but it’s been… probably close to 20 years since the last time I didn’t sleep alone. :-(

  243. says

    Esteleth:

    To say that the above situation ended badly is an understatement. I am glad to say that she is finally addressing her problems. But it has been a long road, and her continued clinging to (a kinder, softer) religion AND to her (somewhat kinder, softer) marriage isn’t helping.

    I wish the best the for her. It’s not unusual for people like me to turn to religion at some point. I did, when I was 14. I fell into Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa (the tent days) and went full Jesus Freak. Lived at Mansion Messiah in Newport Beach part time. I wanted to believe, but that wasn’t what drew me in. I was at a critical point when I was 14 and the one thing I wanted was to know what it was like to have a family.

    That was the Year of Proposals™. I received 10 marriage proposals from 14 to 15 years old, each from a different person. At least I had the sense to say no. I hate to think of what I may have gotten myself into. It does highlight the patriarchal skeeviness of xianity, which is always destructive, but can be particularly toxic to those who aren’t actually people yet.

  244. Pteryxx says

    Caine’s one of my most admired Pharyngulites, too, if not *the* most admired. Along with Katherine Lorraine, TLC and J_A_L. As long as we’re saying this sort of thing. <_<

    (In my case, there's a lot of overlap with folks whose handles I can remember, too…)

  245. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    HA! HA!

    Richard Grenell, the misogynistic gay spokesperson for the Mitbot 3000 has been chased off the job by the braying jackels who make up the modern Republican party.

    As always, I swing back and forth between laughing my ass off over their antics and being absolutely horrified.

  246. thunk says

    Pterryx:

    Agreed with Caine. I also admire you (and your list), SallyStrange, and many, many others. Seriously, this blog is filled with ossem people. <3

  247. says

    KG:

    Well, it doesn’t show! I don’t keep an ordered list, but I think you may be the Pharyngulite I most admire – which is saying a lot.

    Wow. Um, I’m good at keeping those parts of myself hidden, or at least quiet.

    You were one of the people who seriously intimidated me when I started lurking here – I was terrified of saying something stupid and having you read it! Thank you for that, because it made me determined to think and think hard before posting.

  248. Pteryxx says

    ‘Nother good article on Cracked:

    http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-to-spot-b.s.-political-story-in-under-10-seconds/

    Politics isn’t always a sport. Sometimes it’s a schoolyard face-off where all of the press gathers around the arguing kids in a circle, chanting, “FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!” In politics, of course, they don’t punch each other, they “blast” each other with words. And I mean it’s almost always described that way. Here, let’s go to some news portal again and this time search for the words “Obama blasts.” Look at how many articles you get just in the last few days:

    Another sample:

    If the candidate refuses to comment, then he must be agreeing with the outrageous thing the irrelevant celebrity said — you can even phrase the headline to put the inflammatory thing in his mouth (“Obama Refuses to Denounce Kanye West Tweet Calling Romney a Voltron Made of Butts”).

  249. thunk says

    Pterryx:

    Is it me, or does David Wong write the best articles? Some of the other contributors (especially the men) are way, way too misogynistic.

  250. Pteryxx says

    …argh, newly revealed cool person knows me! *hides behind own feetz*

    I forgot SallyStrange should be on there too, and Lynna… basically I need to go back into my hoard of saved awesome (ossum) comments and see whose name comes up again and again. Jafafahots and mouthyb, too.

  251. says

    Pteryxx:

    Caine’s one of my most admired Pharyngulites, too,

    Getting seriously embarrassed here…I don’t deal with stuff well.

    As for people I admire, the list is much too long. It would be easier to name those I don’t (which I will not), that amounts to about 3 or 4 peoples. Everyone else, I pretty much adore. When I first started lurking, it was Ichthyic, KG (under a different nym), Janine, Jadehawk and Brownian who kept me furiously thinking.

    The list of people I admire and respect has grown and grown and grown.

  252. says

    Even with all that, I’m a supremely fucked up person. I will never, ever work right or in a way that is considered to be normal. That is what took me the longest to come to terms with and that’s simply a dealbreaker for a lot of people.

    @Caine, I think those of us who’ve known people who overcame incredibly disturbing upbringings understand this. I once told my parents (as an absolute compliment) that they were “as normal as it was remotely possible” for them to have turned out. Both had aspects of their upbringings that were absolutely horrifying, abusive and destructive (sometimes life threatening), but like you, they overcame it and were able to become happy and kind adults.

  253. Pteryxx says

    thunk: I think so, because David Wong and John Cheese on Cracked are the only two names I recognize, I only recognize the ones I refer back to or quote or pass along frequently, and I wouldn’t be doing that much if they weren’t good. Oh, and Wojcik (Bogleech) because he writes about bizarre biology. <3

  254. thunk says

    @378, 379

    Yeah… I’m seriously embarrassed here to be talking with you all. I’m pretty sure that’s one of the primary reasons I kept lurking; couldn’t measure up!

    As for people I admire, the list is much too long.

    Agreed.

  255. says

    Ing:

    Opposed to just those stealth creationists. Real honest ID people have no problem with evolution, they just don’t think species can evolve…but they have no problem with marcevolution.

    Oh, those people. I have really come to despise the macro vs micro wedon’tknowwhatthefuckaboutanything evolution peoples.

  256. David Marjanović says

    Bleh bleh, “Kitty’s whining again.” Go ahead and say it I know half of you are thinking it.

    This kind of delusion is just a symptom of depression.

    *hug* What Sili said. I want to see you again.

    Audley, I’ve had Lolita recommended to me by a few friends who are feminists/feminist allies, partly because of Nabokov’s prose style, partly because Nabokov is not sympathetic to Humbert’s outlook. I might read it at some point.

    From what I’ve read about it, including but not limited to comment 163, Humbert Humbert is a Villain Protagonist [imagine a link to TV Tropes here]. Normally authors want you to like the protagonists; this one you’re supposed to despise very deeply indeed.

    (Even his name is annoying. I’m sure that’s deliberate.)

    Kids actually grow at variable rates and some put on a bit of puppy fat before growth spurts.

    Others start out with it. Sister 2 was born having well over four kilos, yet not one more than the usual 50 cm. She was globular. (And cute way beyond words, you simply won’t believe it without photos.) Then she continuously grew in length (no spurts that I noticed*), so her width became proportionally less and less. She’s slim now.

    * Sister 1, in contrast, had a rather extreme spurt as a teenager.

  257. says

    slignot:

    @Caine, I think those of us who’ve known people who overcame incredibly disturbing upbringings understand this.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you. ♥

    Thunk, just be glad TM isn’t around. When I did say something stupid, I got stomped on by TM.

  258. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    When I first started lurking, it was Ichthyic, KG (under a different nym), Janine, Jadehawk and Brownian who kept me furiously thinking.

    Funny, all of those people (Except for the one obvious person.) as well as other (Sadly, some are long gone.) intimidated me when I first started commenting. Also funny, even though I guess I am now a peer, I still think they are all much more intelligent and better spoken then me.

  259. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Caine, it did not need to be stupid to bring on the rage of TM. Just disagreeing was enough.

    He is the only person who ever called me reactionary.

  260. says

    Janine:

    Caine, it did not need to be stupid to bring on the rage of TM. Just disagreeing was enough.

    That’s true, that happened several times to me later with TM. Last one was that nasty thread about pedophile priests and human ape saying all that horrible shit about gay people.

  261. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Janine, I was more than half in love with you, but you scared the hell outta me too. :D I love you even more for that.

    I am not doubting you. Just find it interesting that I could be called scary.

    As self critical as I can be (It borders on self loathing.) it is still difficult to understand how others can see you.

  262. says

    I tend to feel incredibly intimidated by posters around here, even though I’m fond of so many of the Horde.

  263. David Marjanović says

    That was the Year of Proposals™. I received 10 marriage proposals from 14 to 15 years old, each from a different person.

    …It’s a bit difficult to imagine for me what that would be like, male privilege and all, but… chances are good I’d have resorted to running for the hills. Screaming, flailing arms, the whole show.

    (Or, literally, at night – introvert that I am.)

    Seriously, this blog is filled with ossem people. <3

    Seconded.

    Getting seriously embarrassed here…I don’t deal with stuff well.

    *hug*
    *cocoa shell tea*

    I hope to meet you in Meatspace someday.

  264. says

    Janine:

    Just find it interesting that I could be called scary.

    By scary, I mean your scathing wit and ferocious intelligence, especially when dealing with the stupid. I did not want to be on the receiving end of that because I was stupid.

    Thunk, TM is Truth Machine. Goes by Nothing Sacred now.

  265. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Thunk, TM is short for Truth Machine. A scarily intelligent person who would go off on both logical inconstancy and if he decided he did not like you. While it could be entertaining to behold, it was an act that got tiring very fast.

    I say this as a recipient of a few of his tirades.

    Also, ask the other regulars about me being a reactionary.

  266. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    The Oklahoma Supreme Court on Monday unanimously ruled that a ballot measure to completely prohibit abortion was “clearly unconstitutional.”

    Who appointed those liberal judges? And, more to the point, how did they find that many liberals in Oklahoma?

    ———

    For all who are struggling, you have both my sympathy and my admiration.

    And there are lots of people here whom I admire quite deeply.

    ———

    Tonight I get to go to a jazz concert. Girl is playing in the uni jazz band. Not sure if she has a strumpet solo or not. That gets decided right before the concert (no, not kidding).

  267. Hekuni Cat says

    Caine, I won’t embarrass you further. You know how I feel. ♥ ♥ ♥

  268. says

    David:

    *hug*
    *cocoa shell tea*

    I hope to meet you in Meatspace someday.

    I would like that too. I would *squeeze* you so. I would. Now I’m going to search cocoa shell tea.

  269. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    By scary, I mean your scathing wit and ferocious intelligence, especially when dealing with the stupid.

    I wish I could do this in meatspace. I tend to be a bit more quiet. But I have noticed that my glares can get to some people. This despite being one of the most physically nonthreatening person around.

  270. Pteryxx says

    oh, and I think MOST people are fucked-up, usually in several ways, but most of the time it doesn’t show. Lots have suffered somehow, but only a few actually speak about what happened to them openly, instead of just to family or a few close friends. Look at Joel’s “Why I’m Funny” for instance. The ones who speak, or become activists, are sort of the exposed leading edge of a big silent iceberg.

    There’s this assumption that everyone’s more competent, more normal, more whatever, because we know all our own weaknesses I guess; but the evidence just doesn’t support that.

    …aaaand I’m still intimidated a lot of the time here because of all the amazing, smart, ruthless people with fast connections. On most topics, I just lurk, unless I’m very familiar with it *and* have references, or have something that I think is worth contributing. (And won’t embarrass me too horribly… INTERNET IS FOREVAR! <_< )

  271. says

    David re: Lolita:
    That’s it, exactly. Villian protagonist.

    I would never push anyone to read Lolita, but goddamn Nabokov really proved his genius by writing it– he created a protagonist that you absolutely loathe, and yet the book is incredibly readable.

    To bring it back to what I was talking about before, in A Perfect Day For Bananafish, there’s a total creeper protagonist that you’re supposed to have sympathy for, which is what disgusted me. (And why I feel that Salinger was a total hack.) Nabokov, on the other hand, created Humbert (worse than a creeper) with the intention that the reader would hate him and it works.

    After all of these years and all of the books that I’ve read, that still blows my fucking mind.

  272. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    On most topics, I just lurk, unless I’m very familiar with it *and* have references, or have something that I think is worth contributing. (And won’t embarrass me too horribly… INTERNET IS FOREVAR! <_< )

    This is why I rarely comment on the more science themed posts.

  273. David Marjanović says

    who’s TM?

    A guy who named himself truth machine. Had a unique style of commenting: basically he commented in real time, firing off a comment for every little thing he wanted to say, so he sometimes posted 10 comments in a row. He was almost always angry, sometimes extremely so. Usually, he was angry at all the right things and all the right people. I think he thinks it’s evil to be however slightly intellectually dishonest. He steamrolled all the creationists, apologists, climate change denialists etc. into the ground. However, he was consistent in his hate of intellectual dishonesty: he was capable of turning against anyone and everyone, even when at the same time (in the same comment even) acknowledging where they were right.

    His definition of intellectual dishonesty was very wide, and his reaction to it was… consistent: seriously angry.

    His anger couldn’t hide the fact that he was practically always right. So, if he suddenly attacked you, chances were good you had actually made a mistake. That made him scary.

    He was a deep thinker, I must say. My few disagreements with him, IIRC about things where I think he took his definitions of certain terms too seriously, haven’t been resolved; I promised to return to the topic later, but didn’t find the time, and then everyone (including himself) had moved on.

    He tended to take misunderstandings of what he said as signs of intellectual dishonesty or failures of coherent logical thought.

  274. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    And when I noted upthread that I was surprised that I still had money left over after paying the bills? I was wrong.

    Turns out check #15604 accidentally got entered as a deposit, not a debit.

    Shit.

    That’s a $450 turnaround.

    And this is doing it on the computer, not by hand. Putting the money in the wrong column does weird things.

  275. says

    Pteryxx:

    The ones who speak, or become activists, are sort of the exposed leading edge of a big silent iceberg.

    That’s the truth.

    Pteryxx, your voice is fine. It’s better than fine. You’re intelligent, you have a love of educating peoples and you’re probably one of the most compassionate people here. You’re good. Really.