Not as much fun as it sounds »« The problem with evo devo

Comments

  1. paulburnett says

    Having a friend who just passed a kidney stone, I almost screamed at the Bayer aspirin comment.

  2. otrame says

    Well, you know Heinlein recommended that at the age of twelve all boys should be put into a barrel and fed through the bung hole. Then when they reach (not sure which age he recommended…) 21 (I think) you can decide whether or not to drive in the bung.

  3. Gregory Greenwood says

    That was hilariously funny, and made all the more so because I can just imagine MRAs becoming apoplectic with rage that anyone would dare make a video that mocks ‘teh scared man parts’ and parodys the idiocy of misogynists.

    On the subject of which, I wonder how long it will be before angry male supremacist arsehats turn up to bemoan how mean all the Pharyngula ‘feminazis’ are to them? Place your bets now…

    Personally, I don’t think we will make it to thirty posts before the MRA trolls start stinking up the thread, but who knows – maybe they are too busy slut-shaming some rape survivors right now.

  4. Brownian says

    Hey, what if men’s health issues were treated by congress in the same way women’s health issues are?

    “Doctor, my penis hurts when I do thi—”
    “Oh, you’re just being testerical. Here’s a sock and some magazines. Go into that little room and don’t come out until you’ve calmed yourself. But before you do: which HMO are you with again?”

  5. robro says

    Very funny. And Second City to boot…awesome. There should be more of this stuff and all those jerky guys making decisions about women’s health issues should be forced to watch it.

    That age range does seem a tad off, at least the far end. I would say more like 14 to sometime after 60 or 70, maybe longer. But leave it to a guy to correct a woman.

  6. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart: mad, but sadistic genius says

    ♥!

    I like the “rolling up your man-parts in a tiny, odorless pouch” bit, myself. Hmmmm, I wonder if Mr Darkheart would be willing to do that…

    :D

  7. Brownian says

    On the subject of which, I wonder how long it will be before angry male supremacist arsehats turn up to bemoan how mean all the Pharyngula ‘feminazis’ are to them? Place your bets now…

    Another drinking game!

    Take a drink whenever someone:

    a) writes something to the effect of “This blog used to be cool, but now that it’s just a PC rag I’ll spend my time elsewhere!”: 1 drink (2 if it’s from a commenter you’ve never read from before; 3 drinks if it’s a commenter who only shows up in the feminist threads to complain)
    b) uses the words ‘groupthink’, ‘hive mind’, or ‘thought police': 1 drink per usage
    c) shares a story about fathers and family court to show that men can’t catch a break: 1 drink
    d) argues via overuse of the word ‘rational’ and its derivatives: 1 drink
    e) mentions PZ writes these posts solely for the ‘pagehits': 1 drink (3 if it’s anyone other than Sven/Chas)

    That should be good to get a good Tuesday buzz on.

  8. ambassadorfromverdammt says

    @12 & @14
    Yeah, sure, I could post all that stuff. They YOU would all get uproariously drunk, and I would be sitting here sober.

    What about M-E-E-E-E-E-E!

  9. fireweaver says

    @12 Brownian: “That should be good to get a good Tuesday buzz on.”

    More like mind bogglingly drunk off your ass accompanied by a hangover that will last until Friday.

    I like to play these games with weed: Just replace “take a drink” with “smoke half a joint”. You’d still get buzzed off your ass, but at least you won’t have a three day long hangover. Not to mention all the really groovy things you and your S.O. could do in the meantime.

  10. Gregory Greenwood says

    Brownian @ 12;

    Another drinking game!

    With all the MRA morons running about teh intertoobs, this game should probably come with an alcohol poisoning health advisory.

    As a teetotaler, I will just have to settle for watching everyone else’s posts get less and less coherent as the evening wears on…

  11. Brownian says

    Are you trying to kill me?

    [Checks list of arch-enemies. Doesn't see Erulóra Maikalambe.] No, I don’t think so. At least, not you specifically. Do you work for someone terrible, evil, or who attended my junior high school?

    You’d still get buzzed off your ass, but at least you won’t have a three day long hangover.

    No, but I don’t get three-day-long hangovers anyway (though, for the record, I have had bongovers.) But you’re of course welcome to play with whatever your favourite imbibement is.

  12. Brownian says

    As a teetotaler, I will just have to settle for watching everyone else’s posts get less and less coherent as the evening wears on…

    Hey everybody! Gregory Greenwood just volunteered as DD! Whoever needs to pick up party favours; we’re leaving in five! We’ve got room for—how many can you fit in your vehicle, Gregory?—eight should fit. Also, I need to pick up a friend. Don’t worry; he’s totally cool as long as he doesn’t think you’re a cop. Can you run a few reds to prove you aren’t? I know it’s weird but he gets trigger-happy when he’s delivering coke.

  13. interrobang says

    I laughed out loud. Unfortunately, I’d find it a lot funnier if a supposedly “civilised” country’s comedians didn’t see the need to put on an off-off-off Broadway version of The Women’s Parliament, in twenty-freakin’ twelve of all things…

    Considering how porous your northern border is to right-wing political thought (American right-wingers think the US is the greatest thing ever, and so do Canadian right-wingers), you people are starting to scare me bigtime. And, 11 years after September 11th, I thought I was scared-by-Americans-proof.

  14. F says

    “rolling up your man-parts in a tiny, odorless pouch”

    I wish this were an option. And odorless, too?

    Hell, if testicle owners could retract them, that would be like nature’s birth control assist.

  15. Tony says

    Man, I needed that laugh.
    14-23 really? I would think it would extend longer than that (was there a pun in there).
    I’m still perplexed how anyone could think about addressing issues important to women, but not have any women present to speak about those issues.
    To anyone who thinks the United States isn’t drowning in male privilege, go watch the video of the all male House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pay special attention to Joe Walsh. The entire video is a lesson in ‘how to be anti-woman’ in one easy step.

  16. Gregory Greenwood says

    Brownian @ 19;

    Hey everybody! Gregory Greenwood just volunteered as DD! Whoever needs to pick up party favours; we’re leaving in five! We’ve got room for—how many can you fit in your vehicle, Gregory?—eight should fit.

    If you expect me to nip across 5,000 miles of Atlantic ocean to provide a free taxi service for you and your drunken mates then at the very least I expect to be bumped up several places in the ghey secks with Brownian queue…

    Also, I need to pick up a friend. Don’t worry; he’s totally cool as long as he doesn’t think you’re a cop. Can you run a few reds to prove you aren’t? I know it’s weird but he gets trigger-happy when he’s delivering coke.

    *innocent*

    But why is he so bothered by police officers when he is just delivering bulk orders of coca-cola? Is law enforcement very hot on tooth-decay in the US?

    */innocent*

    ;-P

  17. scrawnykayaker says

    In a similar vein, if there are any actual feminists in the VA state legislature, they’ll introduce a bill to require a colonoscopy and a prostate exam for anyone requesting a prescription for Viagra. Somehow, I doubt it would pass despite the recent vaginal-probe-before-abortion law they were so fond of, but it seems fair and balanced to me.

  18. marcus says

    I’m at work so I can’t watch this yet. The screen-shot alone is priceless. I can hardly wait to get home and see how many bong-hits I’ve racked up and then I’m going to watch it. I will have the EMT’s standing by lest my diaphragm detaches in paroxysms of mirth.

  19. Algernon says

    You think that’s bad, you should have seen the time they had a panel on animal health and all the experts in veterinary medicine were human! Animalist pigs.

    What’s your point?

  20. says

    Brownian and Moggie:

    g) insists that feminism has nothing to do with skepticism and therefore has no place on FTB: 1 drink. 2 drinks if commenter insists that feminism is a religion.
    h) argues at length that the word “hysterical” isn’t sexist – 1 drink.
    i) “Well, I’m a woman and I think you irrational hysterical cunts are wrong!” – 1 drink.
    j) implores us, entirely without irony, to “come and discuss things like adults over at ERV” – 5 drinks

  21. Brownian says

    You think that’s bad, you should have seen the time they had a panel on animal health and all the experts in veterinary medicine were human! Animalist pigs.

    g) Analogy only an idiot would make: 2 drinks

    Thanks, Zach. I’d covered over most of the things the MRAs with brains do, but I’d forgotten the word salad tossing contingent.

  22. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart: mad, but sadistic genius says

    Gregory:

    Is law enforcement very hot on tooth-decay in the US?

    *cough!* Brownian is Canadian. *cough!*

    zacharywhatever:

    You think that’s bad, you should have seen the time they had a panel on animal health and all the experts in veterinary medicine were human!

    Hey, Zach! Fuck off, you sniveling little ferret.

    The next time you compare women to animals, don’t expect me to be quite so nice, fuck face.

  23. Louis says

    But but but PZ, why do you hate men…

    ….who hate women?

    ;-)

    Louis

    P.S. INB4 “ZOMG TEH FEMINAZIS ARE STOPPING ME GET TEH LAID!”

  24. kiplingedsnacks says

    I’m definitely taking the loin-purse to market…Space aged moisture absorbent polymers, activated carbon nano-granules, breathable synthetic fabric….license it to underarmor and I’ll be rolling in the dough. “hey fellas, organize your junk!” or “Purses aren’t just for ladies anymore” just brainstorming

  25. jloopy says

    @24 – Actually, a more fair and balanced exam for men when seeking drugs for erectile dysfuntion, or, frankly, any medical care at all, would be a thorough penile sounding with a metal rod (actually, to be fair, the rod would be plastic, much like a vaginal ultrasound probe).

    But this really wasn’t a discussion about women or health care; it was a bunch of self-righteous, mostly-celibate men who have chosen a rather perverse, alternative lifestyle whining and demanding that they be granted special rights and privileges under the law.

  26. sadunlap says

    Maybe the tee-totalers and alcoholics could play MRA bingo instead of the drinking game?

    Create a card with 16 squares arranged in 4 rows of 4 squares.

    Place one of the following words or phrases in a square:

    feminazis
    aspirin
    male circumcision (all variants)
    groupthink
    “hive mind”
    “thought police”
    “men can’t catch a break”
    rational
    reasonable
    pagehits
    Man-hating
    “not sexist”
    “why can’t men have a say?”
    “It’s the man’s child too!”
    “abortion=murder” (all variants)
    hysterical

    First one to say “bingo” wins. Given we can’t see each other this will all have to be on the honor system.

  27. Randide, ou l'Optimisme says

    Just giving credit where credit is due.

    Gregory Greenwood @8:

    Personally, I don’t think we will make it to thirty posts before the MRA trolls start stinking up the thread, but who knows – maybe they are too busy slut-shaming some rape survivors right now.

    I’m not good at the maths, but 26 is still less than 30, right?

  28. carlie says

    In a similar vein, if there are any actual feminists in the VA state legislature, they’ll introduce a bill to require a colonoscopy and a prostate exam for anyone requesting a prescription for Viagra. Somehow, I doubt it would pass despite the recent vaginal-probe-before-abortion law they were so fond of, but it seems fair and balanced to me.

    Janet Howell did, and it didn’t pass. Came close, though.

  29. crowepps says

    Tony @ #22 –

    I’m still perplexed how anyone could think about addressing issues important to women, but not have any women present to speak about those issues.

    If you think that’s perplexing, consider how mind boggling it is that women are only invited to testify when it is a woman’s issue, as though the only facets of government where their opinion might be useful are those solely concerning the uterus or children’s issues. (I emphasize ‘solely’ because as an example the current bellicosity towards Iran totally ignores the fact there are one million innocent fetuses in Iranian women’s bellies at any given moment and of course their Right To Life *should* be a compelling concern.

    Perhaps to the astonishment of male Congressmen, women also have valuable insights to share about tax law, defense, the space program, the stock market and the disappearance of the family farm.

  30. John Morales says

    [OT]

    Randide,

    I’m not good at the maths, but 26 is still less than 30, right?

    I’m (I like to think) better than mediocre at math, so I note that it’s less only in a absolute quantitative sense.

    (For example, 32 is less different to 30 than 26 is)

  31. marcus says

    Alethea @39 Right after the bong-hits! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee (wait…what, oh yeah chocolate!)eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

  32. otrame says

    My son and I had a big ol’ laugh at that. We had just been discussing the situation. We decided that every single woman who is forced to get a ultrasound before her abortion should sue the living hell out of the doctor and anyone elsetransvaginal directly involved for medical malpractice. You see, it is malpractice to perform a procedure on a patient that is not medically necessary.

  33. otrame says

    Wow, what the hell happened to that comment?

    Let’s try this again.

    My son and I had a big ol’ laugh at that. We had just been discussing the situation. We decided that every single woman who is forced to get a transvaginal ultrasound before her abortion should sue the living hell out of the doctor and anyone else directly involved for medical malpractice. You see, it is malpractice to perform a procedure on a patient that is not medically necessary.

    There. That is better.

  34. DLC says

    Do the GOP *Really* want to go merrily back to the 19th century?
    or would they prefer the 18th, so they can have slaves ?
    No doubt some of them would love a nice young house-boy.
    I’m afraid my sarcasm doesn’t come across well in a text-only format, but it had to be tried.

  35. says

    otrame

    We decided that every single woman who is forced to get a ultrasound before her abortion should sue the living hell out of the doctor and anyone elsetransvaginal directly involved for medical malpractice.

    Bad, bad idea.
    It’s not the doctor’s fault.
    If he wants to provide safe abortions he has to comply with the law, even if he thinks it’s bullshit.
    If you sue the doctors for an unfair law, the only result is that the doctors will shy away from providing abortions.

    BTW, you just all missunderstood the issue.
    They just went and chose the most competent people for the panel!
    It’s not sexist, and it shows again that you feminazis just seek special rights.
    You want to deprive a qualified man (i.e. a catholic priest) of a job he well deserves to give it to somebody else solely on the basis of their gender.
    That’s sexist!

    How am I doing?

  36. matriarchy says

    For this satirical take to have any bite there would have to, you know, BE departments devoted to men’s health issues. There are none; on the other hand, there are dozens upon dozens of programs for the pampered princesses. It’s true that a panel of men was, well, kinda dumb, but hey, at least women’s health is a thing. Before anything else, We should focus on the fact that men’s healthcare is not discussed at all, not this lesser issue of women’s healthcare not being discussed *correctly*.

  37. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Oh my fuck, it’s a textbook WATM?! example. “Pampered princesses.” I fucking love it.

  38. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Before anything else, We should focus on the fact that men’s healthcare is not discussed at all, not this lesser issue of women’s healthcare not being discussed *correctly*.

    You know why men’s health is never discussed? Because when health is discussed, it more or less defaults on men’s health.

  39. matriarchy says

    I don’t agree with that, Beatrice. In my opinion, that’s basically a myth fed by latent societal misandry. We all have hearts, spleens, ears, lungs, we’re the same in most ways. That’s general health. Then there’s women’s health for boobs and stuff. But- where’s the men’s healthcare? The funding for male-specific health problems? WHERE? It doesn’t exist, because our misandric society sees men as disposable.

    Certainly, perhaps “health” defaulted to “men’s health”in, say, the Middle Ages, but now? No. Now, we live in a society where men are tossed aside like pieces of fruit.

  40. says

    Before anything else, We should focus on the fact that men’s healthcare is not discussed at all, not this lesser issue of women’s healthcare not being discussed *correctly*.

    Wait, you mean they haven’t figured out how to help men with erectile dysfunctions?
    There are no programs about prostate cancer and check ups? There isn’t a full month dedicated to prostate cancer awareness?

    So, you don’t think that the fact that there is some additional hardware that enables one half of humankind to make babies and pop them out of their own bodies in a long, complicated process fraught with error and danger merits a bit of extra-attention to those parts?
    Your mum will be so proud of you…

  41. says

    Then there’s women’s health for boobs and stuff.

    Boobs and stuff?
    You can’t even fucking name female genitaliae?
    (BTW, more men get breast cancer than penile cancer, did you know?)

    But- where’s the men’s healthcare? The funding for male-specific health problems? WHERE? It doesn’t exist, because our misandric society sees men as disposable.

    See above.
    You’re either very stupid or a very boring troll…

  42. tungl says

    @50 matriarchy:

    Could you get specific and name a few men’s health problems are not sufficiently adressed? I just typed “prostate cancer research” into google and found all kinds of organizations devoted to just that. I mean, that’s the equivalent to “Boobs and stuff”, right?

    I think you’re confusing public discourse with practice. There’s not much talk about male specific health problems because everyone pretty much agrees that, yeah sure, they are problems and we should do something about them. With women’s health everything that is not boobies (where everyone agrees they are awesome and need to be safed) is accompanied by pearl clutching and public freakouts.

  43. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    We all have hearts, spleens, ears, lungs, we’re the same in most ways. That’s general health.

    We all have brains too, but some have trouble pushing the “On” button.
    Just the first example that comes to mind: symptoms for heart attack are different for men and women.

    Then there’s women’s health for boobs and stuff.

    *blink*
    boobs and stuff?
    You are twelve, aren’t you?

    Also, men can get boob cancer too.

    The funding for male-specific health problems? WHERE? It doesn’t exist, because our misandric society sees men as disposable.

    There’s this nifty thing called google. Try it.
    Typing in funding for prostate cancer gave me interesting links, like Prostate cancer foundation (and others). But I’m sure that’s just a cover for boob research.

  44. matriarchy says

    Hey hey hey, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have women’s healthcare. Obviously women have special needs, as do men. But there’s SO DAMN MUCH of it, and so correspondingly little for men. Yes, of course it’s there, but the funding is a fraction of that which is given to the wimminz. I truly to not understand how we can look at this situation and see equity. It’s the concept of male disposability, as I said earlier. A very damaging rhetoric.

    As for heart attacks… I remember Go Red for Women, but no corresponding male initiative. The misandry in our society is pervasive, and insidious, and- I understand!- it’s hard to spot. This is not to make you guys feel guilty- misandry is no-one’s fault. But it’s vital work.

  45. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Now, we live in a society where men are tossed aside like pieces of fruit.

    Only if it’s rotten.

  46. matriarchy says

    Also- I’m sorry. Boobs and all the vagina parts and whatever. I didn’t realize I had to specify with surgical precision.

  47. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I remember Go Red for Women, but no corresponding male initiative.

    Oh, what about the previous 100 years, where it was all about men, things like stents fit only men, etc. You are not thinking or looking at the facts. Just parrotting fuckwittery.

  48. tungl says

    Matriarchy, there is no corresponding initiative to Go Red because heart disease is seen as male by default:

    “Cardiovascular disease claimed the lives of nearly 500,000 American women each year, yet women were not paying attention. In fact, many even dismissed it as an “older man’s disease.” To dispel the myths and raise awareness of heart disease as the number one killer of women, the American Heart Association created Go Red For Women”
    http://www.goredforwomen.org/about_the_movement.aspx

    So, in the public eye, heart disease is a male disease. There has been tons of research about it since the dawn of modern medicine. Ergo, an (allegedly) male problem is recognized as one and treated as one. That it is necessary to raise awareness about the fact that this disease also affects women kinda proofs Beatrice’s point.

    Again I’m going to ask you: What are the specifically male problems that are not being adressed sufficiently? If you don’t bother to give the specifics, I’m going to assume you’re just here to troll.

  49. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Heart disease has been considered a male disease for a long time, so people wanted to raise awareness that women die from it too. Again, we go from men=default to look, women are people too and they can get heart disease too. And maybe they even have different symptoms so it’s kinda shitty to only point out symptoms typical for men, so that many women go to having a heart attack and not even realizing it because they didn’t have the widely recognized symptoms. Which are actually typical for men.

    Disclaimer : Someone with medical background is welcome to correct me. I probably got some things wrong.
    Still, I doubt I could reach fractal wrongness of matriarchy’s comments.

    This is not to make you guys feel guilty- misandry is no-one’s fault.

    Trust me, I don’t feel guilty at all.

  50. matriarchy says

    Well, okay, but the past is the past. We are facing a radical new order, the rising a pseudo-misandric state that is very much unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. It hasn’t taken hold yet, but it’s something we need to actively work to bring down. Obama’s greatest flaw, for example, is his misandrist apologism.

    I don’t care about the past- I care about the now.

  51. says

    As for heart attacks… I remember Go Red for Women, but no corresponding male initiative.

    Cupcake, that’s because until that moment virtually ALL programms about heartdissease and prevention were about men, because nobody gave a flying fuck about the fact that heart-attacks manifest differently in women than they do in men.
    All those things you learn, the pain in the breats, the limp arm, those are typical symptoms for men, not for heart attack in human beings, yet they are treated like that.
    Can you tell me, off your chest, the typical symptoms for a heart attack in women?
    You know, if men are the focus of attention in heart attack research, education and prevention for decades while women were dying because nobody fucking recognized that they were having a heart attack indeed, it’s not “tossing men” asside if you note that “hey, half the population doesn’t show the signs we taught everybody, maybe we should tell them the other side of the story, too.”

    But there’s SO DAMN MUCH of it, and so correspondingly little for men.

    We-ell, it might be kind of due to the fact that you have little corresponding equipment. You don’t have to worry about a sperm getting stuck in your spermatic duct, there’s no little cervix where HPV can cause cancer, no uterus, no menstruation, no regnancy, no pregnancy related problems…
    Be fucking happy you don’t need that healthcare.

  52. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    I see tungl was quicker and even provided a link.
    *sigh*
    *need to type faster! (and close about twelve other tabs)*

  53. matriarchy says

    Specific Problems that, in my opinion, should be addressed:

    Prostate health
    Ballsack health
    Male depression
    Male-on-male violence
    etc.

  54. says

    We are facing a radical new order, the rising a pseudo-misandric state that is very much unlike anything we’ve ever seen before.

    Ah, yes, you got this one right.
    Pseudo misandric, which means actually not misandric, but it looks like that for people like you who can’t cope with the fact that maybe men got and are getting a bit more than their fair share in society.
    It’s like you lose all those seats in the bus when black people are allowed to sit down there as well.

  55. tungl says

    @Gilliell:
    Just a little nitpicking: HPV can cause cancer in men, too. Cervical cancer is a women-only problem, of course, but you’re assertion could be interpreted to the effect that men don’t have to worry about about HPV-induced cancer.

  56. matriarchy says

    Well, true, women’s reproductive organs are more, involved shall we say, but that still doesn’t explain the lack of funding for the few male health departments that exist. So- women’s departments are more numerous (okay, I’ll grant this is understandable given certain complexities), but they also have funding out the metaphorical butthole. Men- due to male disposability- have none.

  57. matriarchy says

    Gill, like I said, I do not deny that men were the dominant group in the past- but it’s no longer the past. The fact is, I have no experience with that world, and I will not accept that I need to live in a misandric society because women were oppressed in the damn Dark Ages. I think that’s ridiculous.

    I would prefer an egalitarian world, one without misandry.

  58. says

    Well, true, women’s reproductive organs are more, involved shall we say, but that still doesn’t explain the lack of funding for the few male health departments that exist.

    Citation very much needed

    tungl
    I know and I know that there are current discussions to vaccinate boys, too. But it still stands that men can’t get cervical cancer just like I can’t get prostate cancer.

  59. matriarchy says

    I’m not 12, look, it’s late. You know what I meant. Testicular. I didn’t participate in Movember because I don’t really like facial hair, but I am a big fan- it’s THE ONLY major public push for men’s health awareness. Movember is great. But it’s not enough. We need to keep pushing against misandry and male disposability. There’s a guy on the web, Paul Elam, who does a lot of men’s activism- we need more people like him. I only just first visited his site today- I find him a bit dogmatic and angry, but all the same I’m not complaining. He’s down to do the work.

  60. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Well, okay, but the past is the past. We are facing a radical new order, the rising a pseudo-misandric state that is very much unlike anything we’ve ever seen before.

    *cackles*
    Yep.
    Fucking find a hole to crawl into, shithead. Make it good and deep. Or the new fucking order will find you.

  61. matriarchy says

    Well, I suppose male-on-male violence is different from male-on-female violence in the sense that the former is (usually) a one-time dealio while the latter is (usually) systemic and takes place in a relationship. So “shelters” don’t really make sense- NONETHELESS, the callous attitude society takes is indicative of male disposability.

  62. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Go Red for Women started in 2004.
    If treating heart disease as male by default is on ooold thing, I’m wondering why a big campaign for raising awareness of heart disease in women started in 2004.

  63. matriarchy says

    Ok… no need to call me a shithead. I want justice for all; no misandry, no misogyny. The difference is, misandry is a greater problem in my society; misogyny a lesser issue.

  64. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    but that still doesn’t explain the lack of funding for the few male health departments that exist.

    Women’s health departments are needed because the previous hundred years or so concentrated on men’s health, with women, except for their woman parts, a lesser stepchild than men. You one one dense fuckwitted idjit for not acknowledging that fact. Men’s health was addressed years ago. Women’s wasn’t, and a push is needed now to bring woman’s care up to men’s care. Why don’t you show otherwise by citing the peer reviewed literature, not popular movements.

  65. tungl says

    This Paul Elam?

    “You see, I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of human garbage. I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of fucking your shit up gives me an erection.”
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/the-fembots-are-already-bent-out-of-shape/ (via Manboobz: http://manboobz.com/2012/02/20/mra-making-women-suffer-is-a-highly-ineffective-way-to-put-them-in-their-place/)

    Yeah, sounds like a great guy. He a real asset, especially when it comes to the problem of pervasive male (on female AND male) violence in society.

  66. says

    @matriarchy

    I’m going to be nice and assume that you’re not just a troll, but rather uninformed.

    Medical research is men’s health. Period. Unless it specifically relates to women, the majority of all medical research is done on men and then we just assume that symptoms, causes and cures are the same for women. There’s no need for a great focus on men’s health because all of medicine is already disproportionally focused on men.

    Beatrice mentioned heart attacks. Women die from heart attacks at a disproportional rate, compared to men, despite the fact that they’re usually better at seeking medical attention.
    http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/21/women-more-likely-to-die-in-the-hospital-after-a-heart-attack-study-finds/

    So, bottom line, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Likely, you’ve been listening too much to the MRA crowd, getting a very skewed picture of reality.

    Your complaint here amounts to asking why there are no welfare programs directed at millionaires.

  67. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The difference is, misandry is a greater problem in my society;

    Citation needed MRA fuckwit. Try here, where real, not imagufactured, information is found.

  68. says

    I didn’t participate in Movember because I don’t really like facial hair, but I am a big fan- it’s THE ONLY major public push for men’s health awareness.

    So, there is this big thing about men’s health and you didn’t do shit because “you don’t like facial hair”?
    Ya know, I know women who participated in it…
    So, actually your activism in favour of men’s health is coming to places where people discuss women’s health and demand that they stop right now worrying about those pesky women (remember, bitches ain’t shit) and do your job for you.

  69. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Ok… no need to call me a shithead. I want justice for all; no misandry, no misogyny. The difference is, misandry is a greater problem in my society; misogyny a lesser issue.

    You are a shithead. A melodramatic, oblivious shithead who doesn’t even know how painful his obliviousness is for decent people to look at.

  70. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    The difference is, misandry is a greater problem in my society; misogyny a lesser issue.

    Aha! That explains it.
    You should have said you were talking about that red ant colony that ate your brain. They really are terribly misandrist. It’s nice to see that you have taken to them and even think to include yourself into their society, but we are talking about humans here.

  71. matriarchy says

    Well, again, LykeX, though you may be right about the past and past realities- again, I don’t accept that we needs live in a misandric society today, with all attention focused on women, because of past discrimination. This is ridiculous, I think. Again- I would like equity. Your point on heart disease is well taken, I wasn’t informed on that. But for the most part, we really ARE the same; therefore, medical research on men applied to women. Yet today we have dozens upon dozens of health initiatives devoted to women- it doesn’t make sense. Again- there is this guy, Paul Elam, whose site I visited today. Though he is a bit dogmatic, I think he has good ideas and interesting theories. The psychological concept of men as disposable has led to this situation- according to Elam- and it’s an insidious socialization we needs fight against. With all due respect to women, of course.

  72. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    past discrimination.

    Ongoing discrimination and violence, you relentlessly stupid, whining sack of shit. Ongoing. Discrimination. And violence.
    Yeah, it’s fucking male disposability that’s the real problem here.

  73. matriarchy says

    Wow, people are really getting angry when I bring up male disposability and other signs of societal misandry. Again- it’s a harsh reality, but my goal is not to make anyone feel guilty! I think people like Paul Elam would back me up here. It’s no-one’s fault. But it’s something that we need to work against, for a better world, a world in which misandry is a thing of the past.

  74. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    with all attention focused on women, because of past discrimination.

    Citation needed. Unsupported and stupid allegation. Try again looking at the evidence not your prejudices.

  75. says

    Well, again, LykeX, though you may be right about the past and past realities- again, I don’t accept that we needs live in a misandric society today, with all attention focused on women, because of past discrimination.

    you can repeat the claim that women succeeded at undoing all discrimination until you turn blue in the face, it’s not going to make it any truer.

  76. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Your point on heart disease is well taken, I wasn’t informed on that. But for the most part, we really ARE the same; therefore, medical research on men applied to women.

    You just acknowledged in the previous sentence that you weren’t informed on differences in men and women when it comes to heart disease.

    Is it such a stretch of imagination to consider that you might not be informed about differences in other conditions either?

  77. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Wow, people are really getting angry when I bring up male disposability and other signs of societal misandry.

    Do you understand that a great many of the women here have been victims of violent misogyny? If not, maybe you don’t know where you are, and you don’t know how stupid and oblivious and privileged you look. If that’s the case, I pity you. But you can still fuck right off.

  78. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    But it’s something that we need to work against, for a better world, a world in which misandry is a thing of the past.

    Misandry was never a problem. Your misogyny and sheer and utter cluelessness is a problem.

  79. matriarchy says

    There is ongoing discrimination against men, you’re damn right, but not so much toward women. I mean- I certainly might concede that in very specific cases, or very specific situations, there is sexism against women… but it’s not an- institutional, widespread problem, I think is the term. It’s not everywhere, much as misogyny might suck for one individual woman.

  80. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    A 12 year old “what about the menz” shithead is whining about ballsack disease? What is he, a 12 year old shithead?

  81. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    There is ongoing discrimination against men, you’re damn right, but not so much toward women. I mean- I certainly might concede that in very specific cases, or very specific situations, there is sexism against women… but it’s not an- institutional, widespread problem, I think is the term. It’s not everywhere, much as misogyny might suck for one individual woman.

    Oh my fuck, we have another visitor from an alternate dimension. And hey, maybe the interdimensional travel explains how his head got lodged so firmly up his ass. Good luck with him, y’all.

  82. matriarchy says

    Hey, to any individuals who have been subjected to violence or discrimination- I offer sympathies, of course! Again- my goal is not to erase people, or to make anyone feel guilty, or anything. But I do think- I do think, we need to be able to talk about wider societal issues here, systemic problems beyond the individual. That is misandry, and that’s what I’m talking about.

  83. says

    there is sexism against women… but it’s not an- institutional, widespread problem,

    you’re a fucking idiot with no clue as to the available evidence. women are institutionally disadvantaged in almost every arena imaginable; men are only disadvantaged in areas such as being a stay-at-home-dad.

    IOW, you got it exactly backwards. it’s men who face sporadic discriminatory instances (and then it’s usually because of such issues as race, sexual orientation, class, etc), whereas women are systematically discriminated against

  84. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    There is ongoing discrimination against men, you’re damn right, but not so much toward women.

    Sorry cupcake, you are proven liar and bullshitter, and you need to provide citations from Google Scholar for each and every allegation you make. Or are you afraid of what the data really says, like most folks who know they prevaricate`

  85. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Wow, people are really getting angry when I bring up male disposability and other signs of societal misandry.

    You keep mentioning this male disposability. What the hell does that even mean?
    If you go to a hospital, are you going to be thrown out because you are a man? Are you going to be denied medical treatment because you are a man? No. On the other hand, if a woman tries to have an abortion, there are places where she is not only going to be denied treatment, but also humiliated in the process.

    Again- it’s a harsh reality, but my goal is not to make anyone feel guilty! I think people like Paul Elam would back me up here. It’s no-one’s fault. But it’s something that we need to work against, for a better world, a world in which misandry is a thing of the past.

    It’s not reality. You are delusional.

  86. says

    Read the article, disphit. It’s from YESTERDAY!

    well to be fair, yesterday is in the past. obviously, as of February 22nd, all systematic discrimination of women has officially been overcome, and we’ve instituted systematic discrimination against men instead.

  87. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    systemic problems beyond the individual. That is misandry, and that’s what I’m talking about.

    I was going to go to bed, but now I think I might go throw up first. I can’t decide between that and just laughing and laughing.
    Kudos. You’re the most oblivious douche I’ve met on Pharyngula in, like, months.
    Please impale yourself on a rotting porcupine.

  88. matriarchy says

    Guys, come on. I don’t mean to make people so angry- but again, if we can’t look at the bigger issue- beyond sporadic, individualized misogyny- we’re spinning our wheels! I’m getting frustrated, tbh. Women are held up as the privileged class in this society- IN GENERAL. Working from a VERY wide framework, then- and understanding there are many exceptions- we can work to dismantle SOCIETAL misandry.

  89. says

    You keep mentioning this male disposability. What the hell does that even mean?

    we force men to die for our country, but exempt women! (except we don’t anymore)
    we force men to work all the most dangerous jobs!! (because women miners don’t exist and would be welcomed with open arms by the dude-miners; also, prostitution is not a job)
    etc.
    it’s shallow crap, and it gets even worse when it starts confusing race/class issues with gender issues.

  90. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Women are systematically being denied access to contraception or even basic education about contraceptives. US are trying to pass laws that violate women’s body autonomy. THere are other countries in the world who are violating women’s body autonomy for the sole reason of their sex.

    How are those not systematic problems?!

  91. matriarchy says

    Myself, I have been a victim of gendered violence- but I don’t bring this into discussion spaces about large-scale systemic problems, because it’s just not about that, horrible as it was.

  92. says

    if we can’t look at the bigger issue- beyond sporadic, individualized misogyny

    one in 6 women will face an attempted rape. only men in prison face similar statistics. sporadic my fucking ass, you clueless twit.

    Women are held up as the privileged class in this societ

    no they aren’t. look up feminization of poverty, look up sex class, look up wage disparities. women are second class citizens

    we can work to dismantle SOCIETAL misandry.

    you are going to have to first prove that such a thing exist. your first feeble attempt at this, with your whining about male health, was already dismantled, after all.

  93. matriarchy says

    men are being denied contraceptives too; in my opinion, this is a conservative resurgence sort of thing… but not gendered.

  94. matriarchy says

    Second class citizen?! Let’s not be droll here. There is no one LESS at the bottom of the heap than white, straight, college-educated middle-class women. They are the elite in our society.

  95. matriarchy says

    Sexual violence is a terrible thing- but who is the primary victim of every.single.other.crime? THE MENZ.

  96. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    but again, if we can’t look at the bigger issue

    What bigger issue? Misogyny must be stamped out and all males must actually treat women as equals before your inane fuckwittery could come to pass. Check back in 30 years.

  97. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    men are being denied contraceptives too; in my opinion, this is a conservative resurgence sort of thing… but not gendered.

    While both men and women can gets STDs, only women can get pregnant. They are being denied protection from pregnancy, but then they are also being denied abortion if pregnancy occurs. Still claiming that denying contraception has nothing to do with gender?

  98. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    but who is the primary victim of every.single.other.crime? THE MENZ.

    And who commits those crimes? THE MENZ. THE MENZ need to get their act together, not given a dispensation, which is where you are going.

  99. says

    men are being denied contraceptives too;

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    first, there is no market for male contraceptives. second, no one is denying birth-control to men: condoms are handed out for free at every PP I’ve ever been at, and vasectomies are covered by all insurance companies AFAIK.

    And we’re not seeing a battle over the RCC having objections to the snip,or to viagra coverage (both of which are supposedly against their rules) we’re seeing them throw a fit over women’s contraceptives and abortions

  100. says

    OK, you’re clearly just a troll. People have asked you for citations repeatedly and you haven’t even trying giving any. People have offered citations of their own and you’ve ignored them. You keep repeating your talking points as if repetition makes them true.

    You’re far beyond the point of good faith. You are a shithead.

  101. says

    Sexual violence is a terrible thing- but who is the primary victim of every.single.other.crime? THE MENZ.

    yep; by other men. which makes it not a gender-related issue any more than a white dude killing another white dude is a racial crime

  102. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    There is no one LESS at the bottom of the heap than white, straight, college-educated middle-class women</strike men. They are the elite in our society.

    FTFY

    What about blue collar women?
    Black women.
    Women who were denied education because women shouldn’t get too smart, lest a man feel inferior to them.

  103. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Fuck it.

    There is no one LESS at the bottom of the heap than white, straight, college-educated middle-class women men. They are the elite in our society.

    FTFM

  104. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Still not one citation matriarchy, making you nothing but a liar and bullshitter. Time to fade into the bandwidth, like all evidenceless misogynists should.

  105. matriarchy says

    Okay… I didn’t realize that being the victim of another member of a given group invalidated the victim’s pain. “The Men” don’t need to get their shit together, that sounds like victim-blaming to me. The men and women who commit crimes do, misandrist.

    Wow… talk about fucking misandrist.

  106. says

    There is no one LESS at the bottom of the heap than white, straight, college-educated middle-class women.

    except for white, straight college-educated middle-class men; because they make more money, are less likely to be raped, and despite claims of a “mancession”, are also still suffering less unemployment (as measured by the ratio of people in the employed labor force vs. total population, since women have dropped out of the laborforce entirely), are not having their bodily autonomy threatened,, experience measurably higher levels of respect from peers, coworkers, and bosses, etc.

  107. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    I would really love if you answered any of the points made, matriarchy.

    About all the things you consider misandry… You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  108. matriarchy says

    I didn’t realize this was such a backwards, misandrist, aggressive atmosphere. I’ve attempted to engage in good faith, but all you care about is insulting me and swearing at me when I just am looking to make the world a more tolerant place. I think everyone has the right to live their life and be happy and not be ashamed of who they are- that includes all colors, men, women, gays, straights, everyone. Apparently that’s controversial.

  109. says

    I didn’t realize that being the victim of another member of a given group invalidated the victim’s pain.

    fuck off, you disingenuous ass. I did not say that, you know I did not say that, so don’t fucking dare pretending that I did.

    Nonetheless, male-on-male crime, unless it’s motivated by transphobia or homophobia, is not a gender-related issue; and it’s not ever misandry, any more than two white people going at each other is racism.

    “The Men” don’t need to get their shit together, that sounds like victim-blaming to me.

    except that the perpetrators of these crimes are also men. so who else is supposed to get their shit together, if not the male perpetrators of these crimes, and the predominantly male perpetrators of the toxic, patriarchal masculinity that leads to all this male-on-male violence?

    Wow… talk about fucking misandrist.

    if all you have as “evidence” for misandry is me pointing out that male-on-male violence is not misandry, you’ve got fucking nothing.

  110. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    “The Men” don’t need to get their shit together, that sounds like victim-blaming to me.

    Your allegation is meaningless without supporting evidence. Your word isn’t good enough for us, as you have been caught lying and bullshitting.

  111. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    I was trying to sleep, but I figured it out, y’all, so I had to come back.
    Things that happen to women can’t be systemic. They’re just happening to women, after all. Trivial, isolated incidents, just property damage really, at least belonging to the category of “special interests”. Things that happen to men are happening to people, so they can be systemic.

  112. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    I’ve attempted to engage in good faith, but all you care about is insulting me and swearing at me when I just am looking to make the world a more tolerant place.

    If it’s in good faith, than maybe you could actually engage some of the points we made. You know, the way we tore apart your arguments.

  113. says

    I didn’t realize this was such a backwards, misandrist, aggressive atmosphere.

    there isn’t.

    I’ve attempted to engage in good faith

    no you didn’t, since 1)you derailed a thread, 2)bombarded it with easily refutable claims, 3)asserted your unevidenced claims over and over without engaging anyone
    I just am looking to make the world a more tolerant placeby derailing a conversation about denying women access to contraception? idiot.

    I think everyone has the right to live their life and be happy and not be ashamed of who they are- that includes all colors, men, women, gays, straights, everyone. Apparently that’s controversial.

    except that no one claimed that. it’s just that your claims of systemic misandry are simply not true. they contradict the available evidence.

  114. says

    bah, blockquote fail

    I didn’t realize this was such a backwards, misandrist, aggressive atmosphere.

    there isn’t.

    I’ve attempted to engage in good faith

    no you didn’t, since 1)you derailed a thread, 2)bombarded it with easily refutable claims, 3)asserted your unevidenced claims over and over without engaging anyone

    I just am looking to make the world a more tolerant place

    by derailing a conversation about denying women access to contraception? idiot.

    I think everyone has the right to live their life and be happy and not be ashamed of who they are- that includes all colors, men, women, gays, straights, everyone. Apparently that’s controversial.

    except that no one claimed that. it’s just that your claims of systemic misandry are simply not true. they contradict the available evidence.

  115. matriarchy says

    Well, Jadehawk, that’s what you SEEM to be saying… it’s worse when it happens to women. I think, personally, you’ve internalized the male disposability narrative- as have we all. But you need to question it, IMO.

  116. matriarchy says

    And I didn’t mean to derail the topic… I saw some internalized misandry in the video, and in PZ for posting it, and I called it out.

  117. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Well, Jadehawk, that’s what you SEEM to be saying… it’s worse when it happens to women.

    See my comments #109 and #117.

    I think, personally, you’ve internalized the male disposability narrative- as have we all.

    See my comment #104.

  118. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    you’ve internalized the male disposability narrative- as have we all. But you need to question it, IMO.

    Given that your inane opinion is based on lies and bullshit, and not solid evidence, there is no need to even consider such fuckwittery. Your integrity was repeatedly called into question and you made no attempt to repair it like any sane person would do by citing the literature. You have an agenda. A idiotic agenda, that is out of step with reality.

  119. says

    Well, Jadehawk, that’s what you SEEM to be saying… it’s worse when it happens to women.

    if you need to make up new, non-present meanings to perfectly clear statements, you obviously don’t have a point.
    Once again, since you’re really fucking slow on the uptake: male-on-male violence is not gender related, and it’s not misandry. which does not mean, or imply, or “seem to be saying” anything about the relative bad-ness of it. that part you made up in your head.

    I think, personally, you’ve internalized the male disposability narrative- as have we all. But you need to question it, IMO.

    oh fuck off. As a feminist fighting toxic, patriarchal masculinity, I’ve done more to help men not be hurt and not be subjected to and pressured into violence than you and your uneducated, uninformed whining about “misandry” ever could.

  120. says

    I think, personally, you’ve internalized the male disposability narrative- as have we all.

    incidentally, I do thing that you have shown clearly that you’ve internalized the narrative that women’s problems aren’t real problems, with the denial of systemic misogyny, and with the derailing of a thread about the denial of reproductive health to women to talk about men instead.

  121. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Hellooooo, matriarchy?
    I’m not seeing any responses from you. You spouted a lot of bullshit and ignored all the points we made.
    Got any facts?
    Anything?

    Pah, this one wasn’t even funny.

  122. datasolution says

    I truly to not understand how we can look at this situation and see equity. It’s the concept of male disposability, as I said earlier. A very damaging rhetoric.

    It is so refreshing to see someone else making this point. I noticed this since I was a teen how men are viewed as lesser beings to be discarded and how precious and delicate women are. Totally disgusting.

    And notice the obligatory language when some accident happens, always with the accent on how many women and children die. This point is always made since it is only a tragedy worthy of respect if women die.

    But feminist fucktards here on this blog would never notice such basic stuff.

  123. Gregory Greenwood says

    Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart: mad, but sadistic genius @ 31;

    *cough!* Brownian is Canadian. *cough!*

    Ah… ooops. Apologies to Brownian.

    ——————————————————————

    Randide, ou l’Optimisme @ 36;

    Just giving credit where credit is due.

    Let’s say I was half right. Sure, zachariahwasson’s post @ 26 made an offensively stupid and bigoted comparison between women and animals, but we had to wait until matriarchy…. ‘graced’ the thread with hir post @ 47 for the full-fat, wot-about-teh-menz attempted derail into a curious parallel reality where a clearly patriarchal culture where policy on women’s health can be discussed by a board that includes no women is actually a devilishly cunning crypto-misandrist conspiracy to create a society of disposeable, single-use men.

    I can see it now…

    I imagine the men come pre-packaged with a poorly translated instruction manual. The lady in question need only pre-heat in a microwave, have her wicked way with him, and then dispose at the nearest refuse heap or, for the environmentally conscious modern woman concerned about possible testosterone pollution, at the nearest male recylcing facility, where used men are sustainably rendered down into a soylent green-esque food stuff to be used as fodder for the next model of diposeable boytoy, all brought to you by Castrating Feminazis inc. – for all your man-hating needs…

  124. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    But feminist fucktards here on this blog would never notice such basic stuff.

    Citation needed, or you are a liar and bullshitter.

  125. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    It is so refreshing to see someone else making this point.

    As refreshing as two farts in a full theater instead of just one.

  126. Gregory Greenwood says

    datasolution @ 147;

    It is so refreshing to see someone else making this point. I noticed this since I was a teen how men are viewed as lesser beings to be discarded and how precious and delicate women are. Totally disgusting.

    And what about the rhetoric that claims that women who suffer domestic violence, even to the point of being murdered, must have ‘asked for it’? What about the continued efforts to deny basic reproductive healthcare to women, in the certain knowledge that doing so will result in the preventable deaths of many thousands of women, all in the name of placing the supposed ‘personhood’ of an embryo above the clear humanity of an adult woman?

    And the whole ‘weaker sex’ bit? Has it not occurred to you that this is not something of benefit to women, but is actually a means of disempowering them? Men are cast as the strong protector/provider, as leaders and risk-takers who take charge, whereas women are forever depicted as the perpetually infantalised passive party – to be trusted with no authority, even over their own lives and bodies. Supposedly too ‘weak’ to be allowed to live their own lives or make their own choices, and certainly to be denied any position of power or seniority in society at large, as evidenced by the continued, pervasive malaise of the glass ceiling and the way that women in politics and business – indeed, in almost all areas of public life – must work twice as hard to be taken half as seriously (and paid half as much) as a man in an equivalent post.

    And notice the obligatory language when some accident happens, always with the accent on how many women and children die. This point is always made since it is only a tragedy worthy of respect if women die.

    But feminist fucktards here on this blog would never notice such basic stuff.

    Congratulations; you have worked out that patriarchy hurts men too – just as the ‘feminist fucktards’ on this blog and elsewhere have been pointing out for years, and indeed for decades. When are you going to realise that feminism is not some reflection of an immature ‘battle of the sexes’ mentality? It is a movement that is trying to liberate everyone – men, women, transexuals and intersex individuals alike – from the toxic memes and gender constructs imposed on them by our patriarchal culture that hurts everyone who isn’t a beneficiary of its privilege, one way or another.

  127. amavra says

    Hear Hear @ #151 Gregory Greenwood!

    I’d say that “male disposability” where it exists is a result of a number of things stemming from the Judeo-Christian conservative Patriarchy. Read something like Vision Forum once and a while and you will see a lot of attitudes that hurt men and women. It stems from the “manly” notions of violence – generally perpetrated by men against men especially in war.

    I do find it disturbing when people lament over women getting killed or injured in war who don’t seem to blink over all the men dying in far greater numbers. To me the violence is the problem though, not the gender of the victim. I don’t even think violence is a male trait, it is just a trait that our society encourages in men and boys and discourages in women and girls. Nurture vs nature so to say.

    Society/ the media does portray violence against men and violence against women differently. But I disagree that it treats it better when the victim is a woman.

  128. says

    And notice the obligatory language when some accident happens, always with the accent on how many women and children die.

    Wait, let’s see, I googled “Costa concordia victims”, these are the top three results:

    Costa Concordia victim died after she gave life jacket to elderly man
    Young Peruvian waitress Erika Fani Soriamolina, whose body was recovered from the shipwrecked Costa Concordia off the Tuscan island of Giglio, has been hailed a heroine.

    The Telegraph
    Yeah, female victim.
    Died because she gave her life for an elderly man. Fucking misandry here.

    AP)

    GIGLIO, Italy – Tossing bouquets of red roses into the sea, the relatives of people still missing one month after the Costa Concordia cruise ship disaster mourned in a private tribute Monday.

    The family members boarded a small boat that took them 50 yards from the stricken cruise ship, which struck a reef Jan. 13 off the Tuscan coast when its captain made an unauthorized maneuver. Seventeen people died while trying to flee and 15 remain missing and are presumed dead.

    CBS NEWS

    msnbc, same article

    And here we go for the avalanches in the Alps:

    Seven people have been killed in a string of deadly avalanches in the Italian Alps.

    The bodies of the victims, including four rescuers, were being recovered today. A German boy hit by one of the avalanches while snow-boarding off-piste is fighting for his life at a hospital in Bolzano.

    The Guardian

    Well, care to give some evidence for your claims?

  129. Alley B says

    Matriarchy: Please inform me about which men’s health issues are being debated in the political arena. Please tell me how men are being threatened with loss of bodily autonomy. I mean, you can do that, can’t you?

  130. Lyn M: Just Lyn M. says

    I think we should all calm down and listen to matriarchy. I mean, he makes such good points about women being totes in charge these days and men being so crushed and disposable. For example:

    Honour killings — man after man being killed because they date.
    Lower pay — for how many years must men struggle to gain financial equality? This is just wrong!
    Victims of violence — statistics show so many men are battered and stalked and attacked by women who never consider how they feel or how frightening it is for them. Some women even claim they asked for it.
    Control of their reproductive decisions — year in year out governments around the world — all mainly women! — deciding issues that mainly concern men’s reproductive decisions.

    I think if we had more men on panels and advisory boards and in positions of power instead of all these women, most of them white, too, then men might take their place in the world and make it a better place.

    Listen to the menz!

  131. datasolution says

    Also consider how more men are raped than women due to prisons yet that is completely discarded of course, since men are viewed as lesser beings.

    I agree with user matriarchy that misandry in society is far more serious problem, don’t even get me started on the wars.

  132. Lyn M: Just Lyn M. says

    I agree with user matriarchy that misandry in society is far more serious problem, don’t even get me started on the wars.

    Yeah! Sent by those governments controlled by rabid women!

  133. says

    datasolution,

    1. this blog is not restricted to the US.
    2. even for the US, your claim is tenuous. There was this article in n+1 or whatever that was, and it has been debated on various blogs here. You probably couldn’t help but ignore it.

    To all crying misandry. Citations, give us statistics and data to prove your point! You just seem to be whining because in recent years, a tiny tiny bit of male privilege has been challenged. But look at the statistics, even in progressive Scandinavia boardrooms are dominated by men, look at various political power structures around the world. Only delusional fools would whine that systematic misogyny was a thing of the past…

  134. says

    It is so refreshing to see someone else making this point. I noticed this since I was a teen how men are viewed as lesser beings to be discarded and how precious and delicate women are. Totally disgusting.

    The problem is that you seem to define men as asshole.

  135. says

    To all crying misandry. Citations, give us statistics and data to prove your point!

    Actually please don’t. It’s pathetic when you try and I think it insults and embarrasses the real men.

  136. says

    also, what’s a slider?

    Regarding prison rapes. So in Japan, all cases that have become public have been cases in which women were raped, either by guards, or by male prisoners (in the 60s, a Yakuza boss bribed a guard who later committed suicide to rape a female prisoner)

  137. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Also consider how more men are raped than women due to prisons yet that is completely discarded of course, since men are viewed as lesser beings.

    Prison rape is terrible. I don’t see it getting discarded by anyone here. If anything, jokes about prison rape are condemned regularly. It’s a small step, but necessary in a society that regards prison rape a fair punishment and a joke.

    Men being viewed as lesser beings has nothing to do with it, in fact, it’s pure bullshit. Criminals are viewed as lesser beings. And that has a lot to do with classism and racism, but certainly not with misandry.

  138. says

    Regarding prison rapes.

    Here’s a more disturbing bit of brain jerky to chew one.

    What are we told, is the cause of prison rape? That there’s a bunch of men locked up with no women.

    Holy fuck.

  139. says

    Katherine,

    ah right, I even watched a couple episodes of that show. For some reason I thought it was some fancy internet term I had missed, heh heh…

  140. carlie says

    Also regarding male prison rape that simply makes it difficult to compare to female rapes: prison rape happens in a highly artificial environment that most men never experience.

    Rapes to women happen everywhere they exist.

  141. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    What are we told, is the cause of prison rape? That there’s a bunch of men locked up with no women.

    Holy fuck.

    Yeah, that tells a lot too.

  142. FilthyHuman says

    men are being denied contraceptives too; in my opinion, this is a conservative resurgence sort of thing… but not gendered.

    Yesterday I walked into CVS, in Texas, and bought a pack of condoms…
    I only had to answer if I have a CVS card.

  143. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    Yesterday I walked into CVS, in Texas, and bought a pack of condoms…

    I know several places where condoms are free.

  144. FilthyHuman says

    @Tis Himself

    I know several places where condoms are free.

    I know, but since I can afford those, I don’t want to be an asshole and take the free one in case someone else needed them.

  145. marcus says

    OMFG Somewhere along the way we moved from legislative fuckwittedness with regard to women’s health care to “male prison rape” and reports of “rampant misandry” by the MSM. If this “drinking” game keeps up I’m going to have to start growing my own.

  146. otrame says

    Up near the beginning of the thread I suggested that women forced to undergo transvaginal ultrasounds before an abortion should sue their doctors for malpractice and Gilielle @46 said

    It’s not the doctor’s fault.
    If he wants to provide safe abortions he has to comply with the law, even if he thinks it’s bullshit.

    I was mostly being facetious while trying to make a point. Doing an unnecessary procedure is malpractice. I suppose a decent doctor could consider the procedure “necessary” because otherwise the woman can’t legally get an abortion. It’s a tough one for them, or it should be.

    What will really happen, I suspect, is that any county in nearby states that has abortion providers will make a small windfall in motels, fast food, and such when people come there to get an abortion, like the states that allowed abortion surrounded by states that didn’t before Roe v. Wade.

  147. says

    otrame

    What will really happen, I suspect, is that any county in nearby states that has abortion providers will make a small windfall in motels, fast food, and such when people come there to get an abortion, like the states that allowed abortion surrounded by states that didn’t before Roe v. Wade.

    That’s a middle-class solution.
    It’s not a solution for women who have to run into fucking debt to get an abortion already.

    re: prison rape
    Our very own Stephanie Zwan has already deconstructed that claim.
    I’m going to repeat what I said there:
    Prison rape seems to be a much smaller problem in countries that consider their population not to be criminals in waiting and that consider prisoners to be people, too.

    But maybe we can get back to women’s health sometime in the discussion.
    After datapoint has delivered his data, of course.

  148. says

    thanks Ms Daisy Cutter. I’m a bit surprised at the numbers being used, though. I understand that the 216,600 number was achieved by asking the inmates, i.e. this is self-reporting. yes? then the equivalent number should probably be “One percent, or approximately 1.3 million women, reported some type of rape victimization in the 12 months prior to taking the survey” from the 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, no? self-reporting vs. self reporting. so whence the massive discrepancy with the RAINN numbers?

    *confused*

  149. says

    Now, we live in a society where men are tossed aside like pieces of fruit.

    I don’t toss pieces of fruit aside. I like fruit. I’m wondering if the what-about-the-menz writer is anti-fruit? Or does he think (oh, lord, no) that fruit is feminine?

    If I decide to start tossing men aside, can someone please specify the type of fruit-tossing my man-tossing should evoke?

    Someone suggested “rotten,” but you can’t do satisfactory damage with rotten fruit. How about “unripe fruit” — which has a nice parallel with “immature.”

  150. says

    @ Algernon: The point, which should be obvious, is that it is poor reasoning to presume that a person’s gender has anything to do with his or her competency in a particular field. For example, a panel of experienced male gynecologists would likely be more knowledgeable than a panel composed of female naturopaths. My observation had nothing to do with my views on sexism, but was a commentary on poor critical thinking.

    @ Ms. Daisy: Bad writing is bad writing. A poor representation of the advocates of a worthy cause does that cause a great disservice. The content of the message is worthless if the writing is unreadable.

    @ Dr. Audley: My point went spinning so dizzyingly over your head; I hesitate to comment. I only want to ask you what you plan to do, “next time?” You know, when you’re not so nice and all.

  151. Gregory Greenwood says

    zachariahwasson @ 184;

    The point, which should be obvious, is that it is poor reasoning to presume that a person’s gender has anything to do with his or her competency in a particular field. For example, a panel of experienced male gynecologists would likely be more knowledgeable than a panel composed of female naturopaths. My observation had nothing to do with my views on sexism, but was a commentary on poor critical thinking.

    No one here is assuming that a person’s gender has any relevance to their technical competency in a particular field such as gynecology. The concern stems from the fact that here you had a policy debate relating to highly politicised issues of female sexual health that directly impact on the bodily autonomy of women*, and yet there are no women present on the panel at all – no female voices, no woman’s perspective on actually experiencing the issues under discussion, just a bunch of judgemental, patriarchal monsters who think they are ethically empowered to delineate the bodily autonomy of women by fiat.

    These men most certainly are not the foremost minds in the field of gynecology, but even if they were it still would not render the travesty of this board acceptable. Technical knowledge is not on its own a sufficient basis upon which to define personal freedoms – if it were, then technocracy would be the ultimate form of government.

    Also, if your analagy @ 26 was supposed to demonstrate the importance of listening to experts in the field, then it was exceptionally poorly chosen on two grounds. Firstly, because it seemed to compare women to animals, which is obviously going to justifiably raise some heckles, and secondly because it implies that expert opinion should trump the bodily autonomy of women. It doesn’t matter how learned a group of men may be, the bodies of women still belong to those women, and those women alone. Experts may advise, but the drive in all too many states is not to provide better advice; it is to gain the power to compel women to surrender their bodies to the control of patriarchal (and often religiously motivated) pressure groups.

    —————————————————————-

    *Indeed, policies in this area are rarely motivated by scientific or medical concerns alone, but rather are riven with religious and pseudo-ethical arguments that are structured in such a way as to place the rights and standing of an adult woman beneath the notional ‘personhood’ of a small ball of non-conscious embryonic cells.

  152. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart: mad, but sadistic genius says

    zach:
    Your “point” (besides the one on the top of you head, I mean) is really fucking idiotic. Not only were women excluded from testifying, but the men that were selected were by-and-large religious leaders. These weren’t lawyers or doctors or “experts” of any kind.

    I don’t know what kind of stupid shit you believe, but last time I checked, there is this little thing called the “Establishment Clause”. Which, you know, is supposed to keep our government secular.

    But, hey! Us ladies! What do we know about birth control or health insurance or whatever! We can let the men decide for us! No woman can talk about how access to birth control has impacted her life or anything like that, right?

    Everyone else:
    Have you seen this?

    Georgia Democrats held a hearing today in the state House on an anti-vasectomy bill, which aims to point out the hypocrisy inherent in a majority male legislature restricting the reproductive rights of women.

    “Thousands of children are deprived of birth in this state every year because of the lack of state regulation over vasectomies,” bill author Rep. Yasmin Neal (D-Riverdale) said in a statement. “It is patently unfair that men can avoid unwanted fatherhood by presuming that their judgment over such matters is more valid than the judgment of the General Assembly, while women’s ability to decide is constantly up for debate throughout the United States.”

    At the heart of the purposely ludicrous protest is House Bill 954, which seeks to criminalize abortions from the point at which “the fetus can sense pain.” According to the legislation’s author, Rep. Doug McKillip (R-Athens), his bill would make abortions illegal seven weeks prior to the limit set by Roe v. Wade.

  153. John Morales says

    Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, clearly, there should be legislation mandating that men seeking vasectomies need to have a proctological examination first. For their own good, of course!

    (ObSarcasmFlag)

  154. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart: mad, but sadistic genius says

    John:

    … clearly, there should be legislation mandating that men seeking vasectomies need to have a proctological examination first. For their own good, of course!

    :)

    Oh, certainly. But there should be some of caveats, too– a man seeking a vasectomy can only get one after a prostate exam, in a small (nearly inaccessible) clinic (that’s only open on Wednesdays), and only if he has a signed and notarized note from the nearest Catholic priest saying that it’s a-okay in the Lord’s eyes.

    Bah. I feel dirty writing that. Nobody’s reproductive choices should be left up to the whims of the government.

  155. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart: mad, but sadistic genius says

    Also, he must walk through a crowd of protesters carrying “every sperm is sacred” signs.

    Okay, okay. I’ll stop. I don’t want to do this to men, I just can’t help myself ‘cos not allowing people to control their own reproductive choices is just fucking absurd.

  156. says

    The point, which should be obvious, is that it is poor reasoning to presume that a person’s gender has anything to do with his or her competency in a particular field. For example, a panel of experienced male gynecologists would likely be more knowledgeable than a panel composed of female naturopaths. My observation had nothing to do with my views on sexism, but was a commentary on poor critical thinking.

    So, tell us, cupcake, what’s the professional qualification of a RCC clergy in gynaecology?
    Also, again it’s fucking stupid to believe that matters that are extremely important to a certain group can be decided upon without any input of said group.
    My male OB/Gyn is the most caring professional in the world. I trusted him with my life and those of my children. Yet he cannot tell you anything about the importance of having safe contraception avaible for me.
    Yes, you compared women to animals.
    You are still claiming that men can know better what’s good for us than we ourselves can.
    Tell me, would you have reacted in such a way if a panel on racial discrimination and equality had contained only white people and denied POC to testify?
    Would you have thought it appropriate to make comments about animals in that context?
    If yes, you’re beyond hope, if not, you’re just a misogynist.
    You can stick around for a while and learn.

  157. says

    Ugh, that story was frightening. Mostly cause I envision that as a possibility. I don’t see how women could vote against themselves. 50% (or is it 53?) of the vote should immediately go Democratic, because every vote that goes to a Republican is a vote against women.

  158. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Giliell,

    Thanks, but save it for someone from US. :)
    Over here (Croatia) abortion is legal and I don’t think anything short of a huge political change would make us go back on that.
    (It can be done up to the eleventh week without special permissions, after that it needs to be approved by a medical commission.)

  159. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    [OT, addendum to my 195]

    Of course, the situation isn’t ideal.
    Doctors have a right to conscientious objection to providing abortion and wiki says that in 2006. 70% of the doctors used it. I hope that number had gone significantly down in recent years. Our current health minister seems pretty liberal (positive changes in rules about IVF and other treatments)…
    In short, we’re moving forwards and it’s scary and disturbing to see a country that is supposed to be more developed moving backwards (measured in centuries).

  160. says

    I don’t see how women could vote against themselves.

    That’s because they never think it’s going to be them. In that story, they’re all that last woman who thinks about obeying the law and everything.
    The conservatives take the women out one by one.
    So, there are women who are against abortion but fine with contraception.
    They don’t think that abortion is something that they’d ever need. They are fine. they’re taking the pill. They only have sex with their partner/husband.
    They’re none of these hussies who screw around irresponsibly.
    Outlawing abortion is not going to affect them, good women don’t need them!
    Then you move to things like coils that prevent implantation. Ain’t they just cruel?
    You allow the little baby to form and grow just until you kill it!
    And again you have women who just think that this is reasonable. after all, there’s enough contraception out there that prevents ovulation and and conception.
    Nobody will be really hurt by this!
    And so on, and so on, until you are at the scenario described there and you got there democratically (nominally).
    Just think about how eager people are to give up their rights and freedoms when it’s about “fighting terrorism”.

  161. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Anyone remember the thread where we had the huge prison rape discussion? I did a bunch of number gathering there comparing prison rapes and non prison rapes and don’t have the time to redo it.

  162. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I don’t see how women could vote against themselves.

    I can. People do it all the time. Look at every single poor(er) person in the US who votes republican.

  163. says

    beatrice
    It was more meant for our Merican friends, but if you wanna come for a holiday, you’re welcome, too.
    You’re actually better off than me with regards to abortion. I need a waiver that says they tried to fix my silly pink ladybrains and talk me out of it but with no avail. And even then I cannot get an abortion legally (except in cases of a different indication), I’m just not prosecuted for it…

  164. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Giliell,

    Sorry, I didn’t realize it was a general “you” and I thought you’ve mistakes me for an American.
    Reading comprehension fail on my part.

  165. Gregory Greenwood says

    Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD @ 191;

    I spotted links to this several times today. It seemed appropriate to link it to this thread.

    Short Story: ILU-486

    That was brilliant and terrifying in equal measure. It is that rare thing; a genuinely frightening work of (for the moment at least) fiction. It is not frightening so much because the actual events might come to pass as depicted (although they most certainly could given the extremism of wingnuts in the Republican party), but because the story reflects the mindset of the rabidly misogynist anti-choice brigade so well.

    I actually got a little of that blood-runs-cold, ice-water-in-the-guts sensation reading that. The fact that there are no small number of people in the world who could contemplate such a set of laws with pious, self-righteous approval makes me fear for the future of our species, but what is worse is not the fringe maniacs but, as discussed above, the fact that so many ordinary voters – both men and women – could so easily sleep walk into this situation due to the misogyny ingrained in our culture leading them to assume that only supposedly ‘bad girls’ need abortions, and so should abortion be outlawed it could never effect them or anyone they cared about…

    … Until it does, but by then it may well be too late. As Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg pointed out @ 197, one need look no further than the horrifying scramble by large segments of the public on both sides of the Atlantic to sacrifice their own freedoms in the name of the so called ‘war on terror’ to see how easily (in large part cynically manufactured) popular fear and pseudo-moral panic can be employed to manipulate the populous into working against their own interests.

  166. Anri says

    So, wait a sec – three seperate MRA’s in a single thread, none of whom offered even a single citation for the claims they were making?

    Hunh.
    I mean, usually they at least try.

  167. says

    Yo, sorry about “Matriarchy”. He’s a troll from Manboobz who is in desperate need of attention now that that site banned him. So is Datasolutions, actually, though I don’t think he’s banned.

    The thing about ‘male disposability’ is something he parrots from Warren Farrel, who posits that men dominate the top and bottom of society throughout all of history, because he doesn’t actually know anything about history.

    Also consider how more men are raped than women due to prisons yet that is completely discarded of course, since men are viewed as lesser beings.

    Roughly 20% of male prisoners (Approximately 3% of the population) report being the victim of sexual assault, media myths notwithstanding.

    http://tpj.sagepub.com/content/80/4/379.short
    http://www.manybooks.net/support/b/bonczart/bonczart2921129211pdfLRG.pdf

    Roughly 1 in 6 women report being the victim of sexual assault.

    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

  168. says

    And I didn’t mean to derail the topic… I saw some internalized misandry in the video, and in PZ for posting it, and I called it out.

    MRAL, you said you were going to stop posting online and see a therapist. Get help.

  169. Philip Legge, coolest of the bunch says

    There’s a guy on the web, Paul Elam, who does a lot of men’s activism- we need more people like him.

    That would be the same backwards male who writes things like, “Hopefully, before we are done [with the radio show], MRA’s of differing views will find more common ground, and PZ Myers will be limping to the drug store for some KY Jelly.” [cite, link b0rked]

    And yes, I gather “matriarchy” is the ManBoobz troll known as “Men’s Rights Activist Lieutenant”, and his claim about Elam — “I only just first visited his site today” — never to have visited his site “A Voice for Men” before today, is remarkably disingenuous. As Rutee and Shaenon have said, he’s been banned with good reason for being an abusive manipulator who’s in need of therapy. Don’t feed this troll.

  170. Azkyroth says

    Also, I need to pick up a friend. Don’t worry; he’s totally cool as long as he doesn’t think you’re a cop. Can you run a few reds to prove you aren’t? I know it’s weird but he gets trigger-happy when he’s delivering coke.

    *innocent*

    But why is he so bothered by police officers when he is just delivering bulk orders of coca-cola? Is law enforcement very hot on tooth-decay in the US?

    */innocent*

    More to the point, wouldn’t casually running a red light be strong circumstantial evidence that you ARE a cop?

  171. Azkyroth says

    The next time you compare women to animals, don’t expect me to be quite so nice, fuck face.

    Or, alternatively, the next time you imply that men are less animal than women. >.>

  172. Azkyroth says

    We are facing a radical new order, the rising a pseudo-misandric state that is very much unlike anything we’ve ever seen before.

    Y’all do realize “pseudo” means “false,” right?

  173. Azkyroth says

    Your complaint here amounts to asking why there are no welfare programs directed at millionaires.

    Aside from the entire Rethuglican party platform…

  174. says

    Y’all do realize “pseudo” means “false,” right?

    To be fair common usage has seemed to conflate that prefix with “quasi” or “demi”

  175. says

    @Aria Flame

    Clearly it would be a technical code but one that is meant to be easily cracked. IE. an encryption that isn’t meant to do what a real encryption is meant to do. Planting misinformation about a false encryption so you can deliver further misinformation into enemy hands would be a psuedo-code :-p

  176. jkthurman says

    I’m always amused when people bring up things like breast cancer awareness, the Go Red campaign, and similar charities as evidence of misandry.

    First of all, as many have already pointed out, a lot of the need for campaigns like Go Red comes from the institutional sexism (and racism) that lets researchers do medical studies that are heavily male (and white) dominated in terms of study subjects and yet claim that what they are studying is generically “health” – not white men’s health.

    Secondly, though, while the money and time to study white men’s health (and call it people’s health) comes mostly from corporations and taxes, awareness campaigns are largely run by charities. Charities that are often greatly depend on women specifically donating their time and money to keep them going – (often in lieu of paid work) bc that is what women are expected to do.

    So even if you want to ignore the first part, and/or still feel the need to raise awareness about a specific issue of men’s health in the same manner of the Go Red campaign the logical and non-sexist solution is to start a campaign/charity yourself. Not come to internet discussions and whine about the lack of them, as if they were something that just existed because people cared, and not something that exist because people – often women – worked hard to create and build them, usually without being compensated.