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Nov 09 2011

I’m not going to do any porn, either

And with that declaration, the universe heaves a vasty sigh of relief. I’m not interested, no one else would be interested, and I don’t think I’d be particularly good at it. Also, it’s the kind of behavior, along with selling illegal narcotics, pursuing a hobby of running a white slavery ring, or getting caught barbecuing babies that would move my university to revoke my tenure.

And that’s not right. If I were a sexually talented exhibitionist, why shouldn’t I be perfectly within my rights to have an avocation of filming consensual, legal activities? We have a rather puritanical attitude towards sex, and that means that we punish people for doing something that almost everyone does all the time. While I’m no more going to flaunt my sexual behavior publicly than I’m going to take up gymnastics as a hobby (and all of you, quit cheering every time I promise not to ever do porn), I can see where some people might enjoy it… like Greta Christina, who regrets that social mores mean she can’t both do porn and be a respected spokesperson for atheism.

I’m curious: can anyone give a good rational reason why performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye? Is it a more morally reprehensible line of work than, say, investment banker or Fox News host?

Another question: which do you think the general public would find a greater handicap to electability to government office, a career in porn, or a career as an atheist?

579 comments

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  1. 1
    Juice

    You two should do a porn together. To make a point, of course.

  2. 2
    Randomfactor

    Trick question, as the latter implies the former. Also, we seem to eat babies a lot.

    (I think “porn star” would be a slightly greater handicap; California’s seen both run and the atheist actually got elected. The other lost to Ah-nold Schwartzenegger, to our great detriment.)

  3. 3
    Paul-G

    A sex tape might be a good tactical move for Palin if she wants to make a tilt for the white house. Seems to work for other airheads in the public eye.

  4. 4
    Worldtraveller

    I’m curious: can anyone give a good rational reason why performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye? Is it a more morally reprehensible line of work than, say, investment banker or Fox News host?

    Nope, not one good reason. And we (the US) are a lot more uptight about depictions of sex/love/naked bodies than we are about gruesome violence. That’s totally fucked up.

    I really enjoyed my time living overseas (both Japan and Europe). They have a much more humanistic outlook regarding both sex and violence, more of the former, less of the latter (although, even back in the early 80s, there was wierd porn in Japan…).

    Another question: which do you think the general public would find a greater handicap to electability to government office, a career in porn, or a career as an atheist?

    As a male or female? I suspect in the US, the inherent sexism in much of our society would change the answer to that question, at least the degree to which it would affect one’s potential career. The only pornstar I can think of that made any real attempt at politics was Mary Carey (sp?), and she really came across as vapid, and barely more coherent than Perry or Palin.

  5. 5
    Alex

    I’d take PZ porn just for the Rule 34 factor.

    I never got the aversion to porn (OR prostitution, OR consensual polygyny/polyandry). This country is too ridiculous to exist.

  6. 6
    Usernames are smart

    No one would ever support one of “the damned,” lest the Bronze-Age fairy tales turn out to be true.

  7. 7
    Loqi

    I was just reading this on Greta’s blog thinking to myself, “I wonder if PZ would be willing to fill that void?”

  8. 8
    Brian

    Fox News host should be a far greater barrier to electability than porn star.

  9. 9
    feralboy12

    Just out of curiosity, though, what would your porn name be?
    I’ve heard it suggested that a good porn name is your middle name followed by the name of your first pet.
    If you ever see a porno starring “Joe Pooch,” that’s me.

  10. 10
    mikeg

    Rule 34 on PZ’s beard and a cephalopod!

    Anywho. The nudes of me that surface from time to time have done wonders for my political career.

    On a more serious note- there isn’t a secualar argument that can be made. It is just peal clutchin’. Plain and simple.

    But isn’t politics just one big gang bang, with pleasure being reserved only for the guy next to you if he reciprocates? (And the occasional Congressional Aide)

  11. 11
    Cafeeine

    “getting caught barbecuing babies”

    No, getting caught is not much of a hobby, is it?

  12. 12
    Physicalist

    a) Wasn’t there a porn star politician in Italy a while back? (Perhaps she’s still around, for all I know.)

    b) “Is it a more morally reprehensible line of work than, say, investment banker or Fox News host?

    You’re setting the bar really high there.

  13. 13
    RobNYNY1957

    Posing modestly nude has not obviously hurt Senator Scott Brown’s career. On the other hand, about 65% of the American public would not vote for an atheist.

  14. 14
    Cafeeine

    Yes,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilona_Staller

  15. 15
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    feralboy12:

    If you ever see a porno starring “Joe Pooch,” that’s me.

    Lee Honey.

    … Ew.

  16. 16
    Physicalist

    I was just about to mention Scott Brown’s nude centerfold as well.

    Like with so many things, something that would get squeals of outrage from the right if it were done by a “liberal” gets a shrug of indifference from the same folks when it’s one of their own.

  17. 17
    Gordon

    I wanted to search a while ago to find out what porn stars were atheists and it seems like often that search is performed by people looking for someone to preach at.

  18. 18
    Alverant

    Not one logical reason. Western society treats sex as being dirty. If you’re willing to let yourself be filmed doing something that should be done in private, society thinks less of you because to them you have no shame. It would probably hurt a political career just as much to be filmed taking a dump in the woods.

  19. 19
    First Approximation

    According to PZ, his pornstar name would be Snoop Willis.

  20. 20
    imthegenieicandoanything

    Porn star or atheist?

    Xians would always prefer the porn star, espe. since such a hypothetical candidate would merely have to say he (or, less effectively, she) put Jesus into every fuck to sway the more (than typically) gullible.
    Also, many Xians would love to have the excuse to contribute openly to some of their favorites.

    Aheists can never be forgiven. At best they can be ignored and discriminated against.

  21. 21
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I’m curious: can anyone give a good rational reason why performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye?

    *shrugs* Whether or not your credibility is diminished depends on who you are and what you’re after, really. If your goal is to be a “celebrity” with no kind of discernible talent, then a sex tape is the way to go (see: Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, etc.).

    But, no. There’s no reason why a sex tape/pornography should destroy anyone’s reputation– we’re just all a bunch of prudes, is all.

  22. 22
    Zeno

    I hear that a number of students consider pornography a perfectly reasonable way to work your way through college, but I still have a difficult time wrapping my head around the notion that math majors are doing it.

  23. 23
    Inaji

    Physicalist:

    I was just about to mention Scott Brown’s nude centerfold as well.

    There’s still a different standard at work. Brown is covering up the bits, so that scales down any outrage and then you get the “oh, he was young, boys will be boys, it’s really daring for a man to do that” reasoning kicking in for a lot of people. It would be a very different kettle of fish if it were a woman.

    Also, there’s no sex. Posing for pics tends be forgiven much easier than having sex, especially having sex for…thrills *gasp* or money!!1! *gasp*

  24. 24
    Glodson

    I had never really thought about it before. Having consensual sex, for the most part, is a completely healthy human activity.* Yet, if some goes out and looks for a public record of your fucking, you are considered the deviant. Shit, there’s nothing illegal here. I wouldn’t even call it immoral.

    But one could be a businessman who spent his life undermining and attempting to destroy competition, and you might be considered to be a more favorable candidate. Look at Donald Trump. Based on his actions in the business world, I wouldn’t call him a good or moral person. Yet, he would be considered a viable candidate and socially respectable.

    I guess it all about how the fucking is done. If you fuck people like Trump and his ilk, you are an upstanding citizen. If you fuck people in a way that the other person rather enjoys, you are a dirty pornstar.

    Here’s a question: would a male pornstar or female pornstar have a better chance of being seen as respectable despite their past? I would bet on the guy just because of that female teacher who was attacked for her more erotic past.

    *I add “for the most part” because some people do fuck for really bad reasons, but it isn’t the sex itself that would be the problem.

  25. 25
    Ms Naughty

    As a feminist porn filmmaker I read Greta’s blog with great interest (and sadness). It’s depressing that everyone is still so hung up about sex – especially as there’s a growing movement of people trying hard to change the way sexuality is represented in visual images, and Greta was part of that.

    I want to say thanks to Greta for having the guts to appear in porn in the first place – and I think it’s something we need to say to anyone who does it. Because it is a big decision and it can have a negative impact on people’s lives, even though it shouldn’t. I also totally understand why she isn’t willing to do it again. I only work behind the camera (as, like PZ, I am not really porn star material) and even that is a risk. I won’t ever be able to use my teaching degree because I chose this career.

    There’s also the propensity for society to focus on women’s sexuality at the expense of everything else. For a woman, how you look is always more important than what you say. Porn magnifies this, I suspect. It’s time this changed.

  26. 26
    Newfie

    http://img.printfection.com/14/118066/TUebw.jpg

    from a GIS for ‘PZ Myers Porn’

  27. 27
    cswella

    I never really got the aversion to porn either.

    I got caught with it once when I was 15 and instead of feeling shame about the porn, I felt ashamed about being caught.

    Of course, years later I found a book of straight/gay/lesbian erotica under my mom’s side of the bed, and I felt happy for her.

    Definately porn is a stress reliever, and a healthy one too.

    I don’t see why enjoying porn is any worse than any other sexual activity.

  28. 28
    ambignostic

    I can’t believe I’ve never read Greta Christina before. Thank you, PZ, for linking to this story. I just spent the last half hour clicking from one post to another in her archives; she’s fantastic.

  29. 29
    Michael Swanson

    …pursuing a hobby of running a white slavery ring…would move my university to revoke my tenure.

    Thank goodness you could still run a brown or black slavery ring. I’d hate think your university was completely unreasonable!

  30. 30
    jakester

    The vast majority of porn out there is (I, er, surmise) demeaning to women. There might be islands of tasteful sex between consenting adults but mostly it is just tattooed thugs semi-abusing drugged out women who most likely are in very unhealthy dependency relationship with the pron producers. Being associated with that industry, even via the tasteful island, is a bit like being associated with the tobacco industry, via a few tasteful cuban cigars. I’d not go there.

  31. 31
    PZ Myers

    It’s a practical thing. The only people living around here are mostly spooky pale white people of Scandinavian descent, so it would be really hard to find a swarm of brown people to sell off.

  32. 32
    Michael Swanson

    After I hit submit I thought, “Are there even any non-white people where he lives?”

  33. 33
    Inaji

    jakester:

    There might be islands of tasteful sex between consenting adults but mostly it is just tattooed thugs semi-abusing drugged out women who most likely are in very unhealthy dependency relationship with the pron producers.

    If you’re honestly er, surmising, then how would you know this?

    Certain types of porn are seriously problematic, however, it’s not all as you “surmise”, either. You might want to look into educating yourself a bit. Actually, make that educating yourself a lot.

    Oh, by the way, I’m tattooed and I’m neither male nor a thug. Thanks so much for taking refuge in stereotypes.

  34. 34
    Manly Bowler

    “Can anyone give a good rational reason why performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye?”

    Not per se, but the business culture of the US-porn industry (or any commercial porn industry, for that matter) might be an impediment. Though I might come to another conclusion when I’ve thought more about it.
    Most porn flicks are commercial product that focuses on good looks (or better: unrealistic good looks) and the ability to say a couple of lines followed by a lout of moaning. So it’s not a culture that attracts a lot of intellectual persons. On the contrary, most actors apparently see it from an “it’s a lot of money and apart from the physical requirements it’s easy” angle. So most porn actors might not be a good choice as a spokesperson for doing porn, but because they felt attracted to that particular business culture?
    Not sure if I brought my point across, but I hope so.

  35. 35
    Tatarize

    That FOX News thing seems to be true too. SE Cupp couldn’t be a respected pillar of the atheist community either, no matter what she did to repair her misdeeds.

  36. 36
    plien

    Yes there was the italian pornstar, but here we had former prostitutes, an Atheïst prime-ministers & even a scientist as minister for education (fat lot of good that did…..)
    Plasterk is the one who coined the phrase ietsisme.

  37. 37
    Smoggy Batzrubble

    Atheists could never hold public office because atheists are evil and satanic and one day the LORD GOD will use their bottoms as red-hot-poker-sheaths.

    Porn, on the other hand, is sacred and should not be sullied by atheist participation. Verily I say unto you, porn is a privilege reserved solely unto GOD.

    Why? You ask.

    Don’t you know that HE is the original voyeur, watching every sex activity, and commenting on it? He may be the Creator of the Universe, but as you’ll discover if you bother to read HIS Holy Book, most of God’s time is taken up watching what humans do with their fleshy parts.

    This is why HE has nothing to say about the Big Bang and other such sciency-shit, it is because HE’s got billions of copulating humans to keep an omniscient eye on—like an endless stream of carnal fire crackers.

    His most ardent followers also share a penchant for keeping an eye on other people’s rumpy-pumpy. You may think they’re concerned about morality–but really, they’re just emulating the Big Guy.

  38. 38
    'Tis Himself

    Caine, Fleur du Mal #33

    Oh, by the way, I’m tattooed and I’m neither male nor a thug.

    There are some people in the slimepit who might disagree with you on your lack of thuggery.

  39. 39
    cswella

    Most porn flicks are commercial product that focuses on good looks (or better: unrealistic good looks) and the ability to say a couple of lines followed by a lout of moaning. So it’s not a culture that attracts a lot of intellectual persons.

    Which is why I avoid the higher production value scripted porn. Amatuer porn is where you see actual enjoyment and fun. I don’t know much about the background, but sites like Suicide Girls seem to be a good place to browse.

    Especially in this era of youtube and cheap HD cameras, porn where all the participants are just doing it for the fun of it is easy to find.

  40. 40
    Daniel Schealler

    which do you think the general public would find a greater handicap to electability to government office, a career in porn, or a career as an atheist?

    In New Zealand, this would depend very much on the party to which you belong.

    That said, I think atheism wouldn’t be viewed as a big deal because I get the impression that it isn’t a political issue (I could be wrong). A porn career however would cause comment… Which, again, isn’t neccesarily a bad thing if it motivates your constituents to vote for you. But it could also motivate constituents in opposition to yourself to vote against you.

    It all comes down to the turnout. Not sure how that would go.

  41. 41
    Inaji

    ‘Tis:

    There are some people in the slimepit who might disagree with you on your lack of thuggery.

    I’m sure there are. These days, I’m not sure why I bother.

  42. 42
    Randomfactor

    I lack a middle name, unless you count the ones the Catholics bestowed on me at my Confirmation, and I’m probably not entitled to use that one anymore.

    Reason #21623 why I can’t do porn–except from the keyboard side of the screen, of course.

  43. 43
    Janey Q Doe

    I find it alarming that our culture effectively creates two different sets of people- those who enjoy sex and their bodies and those who are responsible and upstanding. This is such an artificial dichotomy that has no real correlation to real life.

    As a teacher, I am forever restrained from doing certain things if I wish to remain employable. Even if they are entirely separated from my job and my students. Because if I like sex and am unashamed of my body then I suddenly become a three horned devil rather than a talented and well-liked teacher. In essence, it still boils down to the same old issue, the more worried we are about purity, the more obsessed with sex we really become.

  44. 44
    Michael

    I teach high school, and I occasionally suggest to my students to find a career that pays well that they enjoy doing (“Find a career that you love and you’ll never work again”). Fortunately none of them have asked about porn, etc. since I don’t have a good counter-argument.

    However thinking about that also had me reflecting on the standards of conduct you are expected to maintain as a teacher. So IF I had been involved in porn before I became a teacher, and the school board found out, then I suspect my job would be at risk. It’s actually a very unfair system, where something that happens in my private life outside of school while working as a teacher, or something I was involved in before I even thought of becoming a teacher, could seriously jeopardize my teaching career. What other professions insist on the same standards of conduct for legal activities away from the workplace?

    A lot of it relates to associating the choices/ethical behaviour you have in one sphere with those in another sphere. So the politician who has an affair has made a bad decision and betrayed the trust of his partner, so we assume he would make bad decisions as a leader and can’t be trusted. My (unusual?) reaction when Svend Robinson MP came out of the closet was: “Unless he is planning to date a lot of his constituency, what does this have to do with his job as an MP.” I didn’t care, as his sexual preference had nothing to do with why I would vote for/against him since it didn’t relate to his job.

    As for one’s public credibility as a porn star. I guess one perspective would be that it doesn’t appear to take a lot of intelligence/unusual skill to be a porn star. So if that is the only thing you are good at/known for, then it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence at your abilities in other areas. Kardashians, Hiltons, etc. come to mind. Bankers have education and skills that aren’t affected by looks, etc.

  45. 45
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    *gasp!*

    Smoggy!

    This is why HE has nothing to say about the Big Bang and other such sciency-shit, it is because HE’s got billions of copulating humans to keep an omniscient eye on—like an endless stream of carnal fire crackers.

    Sounds like a hell of a fap session.

  46. 46
    sphex

    @ ambignostic, #28

    I just spent the last half hour clicking from one post to another in her archives; she’s fantastic.

    Really? You have a lot more willpower than I do. When I first discovered Greta (I think some time in 2006), I spent about TWO DAYS devouring everything she’d written up until that point. Luckily since then I’ve kept up!!

  47. 47
    Lutzifer

    I think it is the taboo of nudity and the use of sexual repression by our culture to make us more obedient slaves to the system (e.g. the coupling of calling lust a sin with the natural urge to copulate once in a while). So, while everybody wants to see everybody else naked and doing the dirty, nobody wants to step out and admit it.

    I think there is no good reason for not having porn actors / actresses in politics (yay for italy in that regard) or seeing normal people or celebrities in the nude (yay for scarlettjohannsoning).

  48. 48
    Jim Mauch

    I’m a man and shouldn’t care but porn is not about sex it is about exploitation and domination. How many Dads would want their daughters, or sons for that matter in the business.

  49. 49
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    The vast majority of porn out there is (I, er, surmise) demeaning to women. There might be islands of tasteful sex between consenting adults but mostly it is just tattooed thugs semi-abusing drugged out women who most likely are in very unhealthy dependency relationship with the pron producers.

    Citation fucking needed.

  50. 50
    Monado, FCD

    Middle name plus first street you lived on.

    Favourite gemstone plus first street you lived on — or vice versa. Or was that the My Little Pony name? And where does favorite dessert come in?

    Porn as something to watch is one thing. Porn that women are coerced into performing in is another.

  51. 51
    Monado, FCD

    Michael, because sex is normally an important connection to the ones we love, and if you use it as a performance, you must wall it off from your inner, most personal self–and that is a great loss.

  52. 52
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I’m curious: can anyone give a good rational reason why performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye?

    It depends on the acting skills.

  53. 53
    cswella

    I’m a man and shouldn’t care but porn is not about sex it is about exploitation and domination. How many Dads would want their daughters, or sons for that matter in the business.

    Just like kids don’t like imagining their parents in a sexual context, I imagine most parents don’t like imagining their kids in a sexual context. But people disliking associations doesn’t make the actual actions wrong.

    And, either you don’t know anything about pornography, or you’re watching the wrong kind. There’s tons of porno out there where it’s not exploitation or domination.

  54. 54
    F

    Monado, FCD

    Well, that works better for me than using pet names. So I get Francis 224, which sounds like someone from the Logan’s Run society.

  55. 55
    Inaji

    Jim Mauch:

    I’m a man and shouldn’t care

    What does your being a man have to do with your level of concern regarding porn?

    but porn is not about sex it is about exploitation and domination.

    No, all porn is not about exploitation and domination. You need to educate yourself, Mr. Mauch.

    How many Dads would want their daughters, or sons for that matter in the business.

    I guess Moms don’t count, eh? And those transpeople, why no, you never thought…

    You don’t seem to think much at all, Mr. Mauch. I’m not a man and I’m not a parent. However, if my adult son or daughter wanted to do porn which was not exploitative (see Hump! frinst.), I’d be supportive.

  56. 56
    Otranreg

    @30 jakester:

    What a load of sloblock.

    Research first, rant later. Don’t a wanker, become one!

  57. 57
    jose

    I’m afraid I’m anti porn. I object the idea that porn and sex are the same thing. I think sex is positive and porn is negative.

    “But it’s consensual”. Well, democracy is consensual too, and that doesn’t (and shouldn’t) stop me from criticizing the decisions democratically elected officials make that I consider negative. I’m not saying it’s bad because it isn’t consensual (if it were, that would be a really good reason.)

    “But feminist porn”. I first realized porn didn’t do much for me through a rather stupid-sounding thought: “I’m not the one doing it!”. At that time I equated porn and sex, but the thing was pointless because it was sex from which I was excluded – other people were doing it. A bit later I realized I felt that way because to me, sex was a personal relationship (I know it doesn’t have to be that to other people; there was a conversation at Greta Christina’s though the context was prostitution). Since I don’t give or receive anything, watching other people doesn’t qualify as a personal relationship. I suppose porn would make more sense to people who see sex as a product rather than a relationship, like in the case of prostitution. If sex is a good to trade, then you buy a porn film and get sex from it. The problem to me is that the people you watch have the status of sex objects rather than people, because they’re there just as the means for the film to deliver sex to you. (I think we should all agree that actually having sex with someone is different, as the other one isn’t just a means for you to get something; there’s interaction, some connection.) Notice this is independent of the content of the film, so whether the film is feminist or mysogynist is beside the point. The objectifying nature of the film, which endorses the view of sex as a product rather than a relationship, is what I have a problem with. (nevertheless, if I was forced to choose, I would rather have a feminist film where at least the actors actually had fun).

    More on topic now, doing porn shouldn’t exclude you from anything. If it was consensual there is no crime. While I don’t share, understand or support your choice of becoming an object temporarily for some stranger’s enjoyment, I only am entitled to my own choices, not others’, so whatever floats your boat is okay. It’s not something that should make you lose credibility.

  58. 58
    Cafeeine

    Im a man and shouldn’t care but porn is not about sex it is about exploitation and domination. How many Dads would want their daughters, or sons for that matter in the business.

    There is more exploitation in some retail jobs than there is is in some porn. I would rather my (non-existent) kids get a good gig in porn than a fast food jockey job.
    Also note: Domination/exploitation stories happen to the characters, not the actors.

  59. 59
    Coyotenose

    Feralboy12, a good alternate porn star naming device is

    (name of first pet) + (grandmother’s maiden name)

    That’s how I got my porn name: Mister Dix.

  60. 60
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >The vast majority of porn out there is (I, er, surmise) demeaning to women. There might be islands of tasteful sex between consenting adults but mostly it is just tattooed thugs semi-abusing drugged out women who most likely are in very unhealthy dependency relationship with the pron producers. Being associated with that industry, even via the tasteful island, is a bit like being associated with the tobacco industry, via a few tasteful cuban cigars. I’d not go there.<

    -Even if we agree to the assumption that some (or all) pornography demeans women, what about men? There's metric butt loads of gay porn (wow, did I just type that?) Is gay porn filled with tatted thugs, drugged up men, and unhealthy relationships? I wouldn't say filled, but all three are prevalent in all kinds of porn. I feel you're making a blanket assumption about the entire industry without knowing much about the ONE side you're speaking about, let alone the entire spectrum of pornography produced.
    In addition, even IF all forms of porn were demeaning to all participants, why should that negatively impact their chances of getting a job outside of porn when the industry is so large? Clearly there are many people in the US supporting porn. They do so "by night" and condemn the industry "by day".

    As an aside, given the poison that religion brings to everything, I wonder if some of the women entering the industry are doing so in part to explore that which is so taboo.

  61. 61
    Crissa

    I like the idea of a PZ Gymnast, spouting arcane biology while capering on a balance beam…

  62. 62
    Eurasian magpie

    This is some more North-European neener-neenerism, I know, but cannot resist mentioning we have a female MP whose soon-to-be ex-registered partner is, among other things, an ex-porn star. And (AFAIK) this is largerly not considered any sign of end times.

  63. 63
    Cafeeine

    I’m afraid I’m anti porn

    There<s a good treatment for that. Don't watch porn.

    I object the idea that porn and sex are the same thing. I think sex is positive and porn is negative.

    No one is saying porn and sex are the same thing. Your value judgments are fine, but they only apply to you.

    I first realized porn didn’t do much for me through a rather stupid-sounding thought: “I’m not the one doing it!”.

    I’m pretty sure this is common knowledge, is it not?

    At that time I equated porn and sex,

    That seems to be your own issue, not everyone else’s.

    Since I don’t give or receive anything, watching other people doesn’t qualify as a personal relationship.

    Neither does a novel, a good movie or a football game amount to a personal relationship, but they have value nonetheless.

    If sex is a good to trade, then you buy a porn film and get sex from it.

    That is nonsensical.
    You seem to be lumping a whole category of feelings and experiences into a single label. You don’t get ‘sex’ from porn. You do get sexual scenery, sexual emotions and sexual arousal What you do with those is your own business. Confusing porn with actual personal sexual intimacy makes your objections incoherent.

    Lets take a similar subject: Dancing. Performing a dance and watching a dvd of people dancing is not the same thing, yet there is value in seeing people dance. Making a dvd of an emotional dance scene is just as much objectifying something personal, yet there is no uproar at all against dance DVDs, or shows like ‘dancing with the stars’. (Now imagine a porn version of DWTS, just to get it over with) Your opinion that sex should only be part of a relationship is your own choice, just like avoiding spectator sports is mine. But I wouldn’t call myself ‘anti-baseball’, as that would be absurd.

  64. 64
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Another way to figure out your porn name is first pet/first street (or the earliest you can remember).

    Mine is Herbie Gardendale.

  65. 65
    Inaji

    Jose:

    I object the idea that porn and sex are the same thing.

    The only person saying porn and sex are the same thing is you. Did you even bother to read Greta Christina’s post?

    It’s not something that should make you lose credibility.

    It’s attitudes like yours which cause the loss of credibility and lend support to judgmental voices.

  66. 66
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Blanket assumptions are fun.

    >I’m a man and shouldn’t care but porn is not about sex it is about exploitation and domination. How many Dads would want their daughters, or sons for that matter in the business.<

    See?
    Take one's subjective opinion about pornography and apply that to the industry as a whole. Even the ones that aren't about exploitation and domination (and yes, there are plenty out there). What about those exhibitionists who like to film their sexual escapades?
    Oh, and the argument about any family "wanting" a child to enter this business…? I'm sorry who's life belongs to whom? Sure one can take into consideration the opinions of loved ones, but at the end of the day, your parents aren't living your life. You are.

  67. 67
    RFW

    Porn is a good.

    Lonely people unable to find a partner-in-the-flesh get to enjoy a surrogate sex life thanks to porn. This is good.

    Admittedly, standard porn does have a down side: the gentlemen and ladies in it are usually selected for having personal attributes out at the far edge of the bell curve. Youngsters who view such porn need to have the lesson rubbed in that normal people don’t look like that, so they don’t feel unduly inferior.

  68. 68
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Another way to figure out your porn name is first pet/first street (or the earliest you can remember).

    I suggested that several months/years ago. I can’t recall what PZ’s was, but I think it made me spit out my beverage.

  69. 69
    JdRock

    Porn stars do more good than investment bankers and Fox news hosts, they help prevent blue balls and prostate cancer.

  70. 70
    Alex, Tyrant of Skepsis

    I think there is hope that in a few years, it will be easy for porn workers to hold other official or other “respectable” positions in Europe. The arguably most famous (nationally) German female porn star ever has gone completely into mainstream entertainment years ago and people don’t care too much, if anything it helped her career because she is widely known. I don’t think this would have been possible in the 80s, give it another 20 years and we might be at a point where it is not an issue at all.

  71. 71
    Brett

    The whole “would you want your son or daughter to ____” argue sucks. I’ve seen it before, in the form of “would you want your son or daughter to marry a black/latino/asian person”, and “would you want your son or daughter to see married gay couples on the street” (my mother’s own words, sad to say).

    As for porn, I’ve always found the amateur stuff to be more enjoyable. Probably because the people involved aren’t “perfect”-looking, and genuinely seem to be enjoying it.

  72. 72
    satan augustine

    which do you think the general public would find a greater handicap to electability to government office, a career in porn, or a career as an atheist?

    This one’s easy: a career as an atheist. All an ex-porn careerist would have to do is say that they’ve turned their life over to Christ and that they were actually married to all the people they fucked in front of a video camera…and they didn’t know the camera was on…and the sex was for procreative purposes only, no enjoyment involved.

  73. 73
    Gregory Greenwood

    Another question: which do you think the general public would find a greater handicap to electability to government office, a career in porn, or a career as an atheist?

    In the UK, being an atheist in and of itself most likely wouldn’t harm an attempt to run for political office. Well, so long as you weren’t seen as too ‘aggressive’ in your godlessness. Actively taking religions to task for their abuses is more of a grey area in the UK – you might well get pearl clutchers worrying that the ‘rights’ of various religious groups were being bruised by any forthright criticism. A porn career, on the other hand, would probably be pretty fatal to political aspirations (particularly for a woman, as is the usual moronic double standard when it comes to anything sexual), most likely because we Brits have mountains of our own irrational hangups about sexuality.

    From what I know about American politics, however, I think it would go the other way. A former porn actor could always ‘find Jeebus’ (praise teh Lard!), and thus cancel out their prior career in the eyes of the religious Right so long as they were suitably rightwing. And male, of course, because men who get involved in porn are just boys being boys, while women who do that kind of stuff are utterly beyond the pale as per the usual ‘slut-shaming’ discourse of the patriarchy.

    So long as you have the critical penis qualification, a little racist crypto-fascism, a healthy dose of misogyny, and lashing of frothing-at-the-mouth homophobia will soon ensure that all is forgiven by the GOP powers that be. It is especially ironic that one could probably ‘atone’ for working in an industry that Republicans decry for objectifying women (because, you know, they suddenly care about the dignity of women – at least when it suits them politically to do so) by coming out strongly as anti-abortion… and thereby objectify women in a far more harmful fashion as being nothing more than living, ambulatory incubators.

    Republico-Logic(TM). It does what ordinary logic never could.

  74. 74
    Gregory Greenwood

    Gah! I was pipped at the post by satan augustine on the whole ‘finding Jeebus’ thing.

  75. 75
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Using the first pet, first street name for porn names, I’d be Aylah Seemore (ok, so I don’t know how the street name was spelled but thats how I pronounced it. I was 5..) or Aylah Dixie if you want accuracy.

    I do get squeamish when it comes to porn. But I realize thats my own personal hang up because of my experiences and don’t fault the industry for it. I simply don’t watch it. I know that horrible things happen in the porn industry sometimes and I know that the commenters here fight against that crap and are still view sex and porn as positive. I prefer sex scenes in books personally, because well, it feels more personal. That’s the part I like, the emotional connection, because I haven’t been with someone sexually without a relationship. Plus the sex scenes I read are usually by a women’s first person point of view that helps me get into it more and it usually happens as part of the story.

    Anyways, the point of all my TMI blather was that if you don’t like it, its a personal thing. Don’t watch it. Fight against sexism and the injustices that happen. Porn isn’t inherently bad. Get over it.

    And as a mother of a 4 year old, I will say this. I’d be worried about her going into porn only because of societies treatment of porn actors and the reality of consequences that shouldn’t exist. It would be prudent advice to tell her not to do it but it isn’t right to have to limit her in such a way if thats what she wants.

    I’d ask questions and make sure its a good environment, condoms, BC, testing etc etc but I wouldn’t be ashamed of her. I’d be proud to defend her against assholes like you. As long as she’s not doing it against her will I see no reason to make her feel dirty about something she want to do and that harms no one.

    Its the terrible stereotype of porn actors, that they are only about sex, will fuck anyone and does nothing else with their life and since porn is bad clearly they aren’t doing anything good with themselves. It doesn’t mean it has to be the only she does and is. For fuck’s sake are you defined holy and truly as your job description? Even if all she wanted to do was porn, what the fuck is your problem with it?

    /sorry, about the teal deer, I got defensive thinking about my child dealing with these horrible prejudices.

  76. 76
    Gawdess Melanie

    Cafeeine…

    I would rather my (non-existent) kids get a good gig in porn than a fast food jockey job.

    No way anyone who has not had children can say this because your thoughts and priorities change so much.

    fastlane…

    And we (the US) are a lot more uptight about depictions of sex/love/naked bodies than we are about gruesome violence. That’s totally fucked up.

    I really enjoyed my time living overseas (both Japan and Europe). They have a much more humanistic outlook regarding both sex and violence(although, even back in the early 80s, there was wierd porn in Japan…).

    Err I think a fail here because your first paragraph wants to be all like “I am totally cool with porn and sex and shit” and your second paragraph comes across all like “well obviously porn is fine so long as it’s just normal sex like I do none of that weird Asian shit”

  77. 77
    AB_CA

    My guess: If a person is influential and credible, you should be able to talk to your kids about them. If you’re in porn, there’s a kid out there who can look up and find you on the internet. Parents don’t want that situation.

  78. 78
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I love porn. Love it. (Yeah, I know there’s some problematic and exploitative porn, and I make an effort to avoid doing anything to knowingly support it.)

    We are totally fucked up about porn, and we have some disgusting anti-human attitudes about the people who do it. I’m no exception; I managed to shock and disgust myself recently when I caught myself sneering at someone I knew many years ago whom I found in a porno online. “My, my, look how he turned out,” I gossiped to a mutual friend. I was reveling in how “cheap” and “disreputable” “John” turned out to be. What a treat to be able to stick my nose up in the air and look down at such a slut.

    What the hell was wrong with me? I was perfectly content to trawl the Internet for Hawt Stuff to occupy my time, and I had the fucking nerve to virtually spit on this guy who was making his living so I could consume porn? Believe me when I say I was really furious with myself and it provoked some (obviously long overdue) soul-searching. Ugly, ugly thoughts.

    And nearly everyone is like that. Scorn the whores but thank god they’re around for a cheap reach around when you can’t be bothered to help yourself.

    This needs to change.

    P.S. – My porn name is Dusty Waters.

  79. 79
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Clarification: I love good porn. Mostly amateur stuff. With real people, having real fun. Cannot stand nearly any studio-produced porn. Not only is it schlocky, but no one has any body hair (come the hell on – really? How did this become A New Law? We suddenly discovered that pubic hair is universally never arousing, and we were all just misguided for looking at real bodies before about 1995?) and no one appears to be having any actual fun.

  80. 80
    SallyStrange

    Now imagine a porn version of DWTS, just to get it over with

    ZOMG, why do we not have this already? I would watch the shit out of that, someone make it already!

    I am truly surprised that no one has yet brought up the saga of Stormy Daniels, the porn star who mounted a campaign for the Senate seat in Louisiana following the revelation that Senator David Vitters had been patronizing prostitutes in DC. This was after the sting that made that prostitution ring famous. Minor titillating detail: apparently Vitter has a diaper fetish.

    Daniels’ campaign was half-hearted, which is not surprising since it wasn’t her idea to begin with. She was “drafted” by Louisiana citizens who wanted to make a point about the hollowness of Vitters’ proclamations about being a God-fearing Christian and a family man. The campaign did get some traction, but in the end Vitters ended up retaining his seat.

    I guess the moral of the story is that you can do something ILLEGAL regarding sex–prostitution is illegal, pornography is not–and still get re-elected, so long as you are a man and a conservative and publicly proclaim that you talked to God and he says it’s all good.

  81. 81
    SallyStrange

    no one has any body hair (come the hell on – really?

    You should have seen some of the vitriolic responses on Twitter when people with female Twitter handles announced that they would be participating in #noshavenovember.

  82. 82
    SallyStrange

    And count me in as being a fan of certain types of porn. I rather enjoy the lesbian wrestling porn where the loser of the wrestling match has to submit to being taken to orgasm by the winner.

    My porn name is Mev Briar.

  83. 83
    Inaji

    AB_CA:

    If a person is influential and credible, you should be able to talk to your kids about them.

    So, you can’t talk to your kids about sex, right? You can’t explain an influential and credible person being gay, lesbian, bi or trans, right? You certainly don’t want to face your own kid’s sexuality, right? Oh noes and all that.

    If you’re in porn, there’s a kid out there who can look up and find you on the internet.

    So, you can’t talk to your kid about what kind of stuff is on the ‘net, right? You can’t take any parental responsibility there, because your kid finding something on the ‘net might lead to…*gasp* a discussion!!1!

    Parents don’t want that situation.

    Seems to me you don’t want to parent, period. You certainly aren’t interested in seeing that your child/children have a comprehensive education in sexuality. Tsk.

  84. 84
    SallyStrange

    If a person is influential and credible, you should be able to talk to your kids about them. If you’re in porn, there’s a kid out there who can look up and find you on the internet. Parents don’t want that situation.

    This is begging the question: why do we assume that parents cannot/should not ever talk to their children about porn? That parents who wish to avoid discussing sex and/or porn with their children get to set the standard for everybody else–why? Because they’re so much more moral than the parents who are open and frank with their children about sex (at an age appropriate level of course)? This just goes right back to the false dichotomy between people who are upright and moral, and people who enjoy sex and their bodies and are not ashamed of either.

  85. 85
    wholething

    A few weeks ago, a professional football player for the New England Patriots had his picture taken with a porn star. He was topless and she wore his football jersey. When it became public, he had to apologize to the team and the fans. What if he decided to marry the woman? Would he have to apologize for every wedding picture?

  86. 86
    PZ Myers

    You know, if anybody did some deep investigation of my history, they’d discover I was a dateless boring nerd in high school, a geek in college, and that I fell straight into my career right after graduation. This is not particularly glamorous.

    If we all lived our lives out of fear of what some stranger would think 30 years down the road, everyone would be like me. A brief flirtation with a porn career, or collecting fossils in Ulan Bator, or working in a slaughterhouse, would have made my biography a heck of a lot more interesting.

  87. 87
    otrame

    Smoggy!!! Missed you and Floyd something awful!!!

    I find I prefer written porn myself. And I really like gay porn. (“Two cocks are better than one”?) That may seem a little weird, given that I am a 60-something straight woman, but what the hell. And I agree with Josh. I prefer more realistic porn, not a bunch of oiled-up musclebound guys with huge schlongs (which they have difficulty keeping erect). Ewwww.

  88. 88
    Otranreg

    PZ: A brief flirtation with a porn career, or collecting fossils in Ulan Bator, or working in a slaughterhouse, would have made my biography a heck of a lot more interesting.

    Doing all three at the same time definitely would.

  89. 89
    Cafeeine

    Gawdless Melanie,

    “No way anyone who has not had children can say this because your thoughts and priorities change so much.”

    Having kids would not change my relative assessment of the two career paths. Porn would still be porn and McDonalds would still be Mcdonalds. I’m not being indifferent to the factors Greta brought up about how porn is viewed and that would definitely play a factor, but I stand by my statement. Unless my kid later wants to get into politics, I would encourage them if they ever chose to go in the porn industry.

  90. 90
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Otrame @87:

    -Being a gay man, I certainly enjoy gay porn (straight porn too, for that matter). I’ve never met a heterosexual female who happens to enjoy watching gay porn. I don’t want to derail this thread, nor turn it into anything too crude, but I’m curious what it is about gay porn that you find interesting.

  91. 91
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Otrame:

    That may seem a little weird, given that I am a 60-something straight woman, but what the hell

    Nope, not strange at all, and I suspect most people, were they honest, would say they’ve enjoyed some kind of porn that doesn’t conform to their everyday real-life sexuality. I like lots of porn that’s not gay and I don’t find that a bit weird. And that’s all the TMI y’all are gittin’:)

  92. 92
    'Tis Himself

    So PZ could have been doing fossil porn in Ulan Bator but instead was molesting zebrafish. It probably looked better on his resume.

  93. 93
    Tethys

    We suddenly discovered that pubic hair is universally never arousing, and we were all just misguided for looking at real bodies before about 1995?) and no one appears to be having any actual fun.

    I find the current hairless trend to be puzzling too. Why is removing secondary sexual characteristics considered more aesthetically pleasing?

    My porn name:

    Fat Cat Wood

    Bwahahahahahah! I love the gender ambiguity.

  94. 94
    Inaji

    Sunnydale75:

    Being a gay man, I certainly enjoy gay porn (straight porn too, for that matter). I’ve never met a heterosexual female who happens to enjoy watching gay porn.

    I’m not sure why you’re asking, because you enjoy straight porn as a gay man. I’m not hetro, but I know a lot of hetro women who enjoy gay porn.

  95. 95
    SallyStrange

    What do straight women see in gay male porn? Well, attractive male bodies, for one thing! Men getting turned on, that’s another. One thing that annoys me about a lot of straight porn is that they try to erase the man from the picture, except for close-ups of his cock. Presumably because they’re imagining their straight male audience wanting to BE, not SEE the man in the picture. Which I don’t really understand. I get turned on by seeing both men and women in a state of obvious arousal.

  96. 96
    Hazuki

    I love a good story more than anything, and prefer drawn things to “real.” Though given how fake most “lesbian” porn is this is hardly a surprise.

    I tend to slash characters from my favorite series (in my head like the entire main cast of Sailor Moon is gay except the title character herself) and basically am a giant girls’-love (yuri) fangirl. Not so much western femmeslash though. I never did watch Buffy or Xena.

    Studio porn is to erotica as McDonalds is to food. You can eat it but it’s not good for you and you really have to wonder about some of the steps in the process…

  97. 97
    Parsnip Money

    sunnydale @90

    You’ve never met another heterosexual woman who enjoys watching gay porn? You need to meet more heterosexual women then. Seriously, from one gay man to another, most of the straight women I’m friends with like/use gay porn way more than I do! I suspect this may be true for you as well but you may not know it.

  98. 98
    Inaji

    Hazuki:

    Though given how fake most “lesbian” porn is this is hardly a surprise.

    There is actual, excellent lesbian porn out there. Look past the commercial crap, which isn’t all that anyway.

  99. 99
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    No way anyone who has not had children can say this because your thoughts and priorities change so much.

    I’m not sure which annoys me more, this canard or the “porn is inherently degrading” canard.

  100. 100
    Iris Vander Pluym

    OMFG it’s Smoggy! *swoon*

    I agree it’s a different question for men and women. Herman Cain’s, uh, indiscretions actually bumped his approval ratings up. While it’s obviously not porn, it has resulted in a public airing of his sexuality. For no rational reason, people do seem to respond positively to indications of virility and sexual aggressiveness when it concerns men. Imagine the impact of the same allegations against, say, Michelle Bachmann. She’d be crucified. An athiest, on the other hand, is pretty much unelectable in the U.S. regardless of gender. And no, none of this makes any sense whatsoever.

    -Cleopatra Weathervane. (first pet/first street)

  101. 101
    Zeno

    Another way to figure out your porn name is first pet/first street (or the earliest you can remember)

    Yeah, I’ve heard that one. I get “Toby Woodville” from that. Seems like a win.

  102. 102
    Hazuki

    @98/Caine

    I have heard good things about The Crash Pad, but don’t know much else. Do you have any other recommendations? Preferably things that are romance-focused and not too fetish-y.

    Anyway, the emotional content and connection is important too. I remember having a huge 2-D crush on Sailor Jupiter a little over a decade ago when still trying to figure out who/what I was so…yeah. Huge, huge Mercury/Jupiter ‘shipper here, for instance :)

  103. 103
    Ben

    As a left-wing atheist, I think porn is by and large a bad thing. Just another aspect of the great things in life subjected to the almighty dollar that corporate America worships. And that doesn’t bring up the fact that it is inherently demeaning to women. Most porn that actually exists is designed for a largely male audience, in which women are expected to subject themselves to the whims and fantasies of the male viewers, in order to line the pockets of the producers to the fullest extent possible.

  104. 104
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >I’m not sure why you’re asking, because you enjoy straight porn as a gay man. I’m not hetro, but I know a lot of hetro women who enjoy gay porn. <

    -I ask only because I haven't encountered this before. I *have* met gay men that watch straight porn.

  105. 105
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I find the current hairless trend to be puzzling too. Why is removing secondary sexual characteristics considered more aesthetically pleasing?>

    I would assume a combination of not having hair getting in the way during oral sex or other kinds of stimulation, and spiting the old people “GET OFF MY LAWN”ing about it. >.>

  106. 106
    Parsnip Money

    benweaver @103

    “As a left-wing atheist…”

    Hey, thanks for speaking on behalf of all ‘left-wing atheists.’ I’m sure there are none that would disagree with you. Because then they wouldn’t be ‘left-wing’ in your mind, amirite? Thank goodness we have people like you who are so good at identifying what true ‘left-wing’ people think.

  107. 107
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Parsnip Money @97:

    -I’ve met plenty of heterosexual females. Many of them like pornography. To the best of my knowledge, none has expressed any interest in gay porn (and I do realize that that doesn’t mean they aren’t interested). I’m a bartender, and tend to get along quite well with people wherever I work. I’m quite known for asking questions, taking polls (one such poll I took dealt with women & fellatio; I was astonished to learn that most of the women I spoke to did NOT like it; a few would do it to “make their man happy”, and only a couple of them said “hell yeah”), and initiating conversations about a wide range of subjects. I’ve chatted about pornography before with people I work with, and I’d love to encounter a woman who likes gay porn.

  108. 108
    dan

    so liberal that it hurts.

  109. 109
    Inaji

    Hazuki:

    Do you have any other recommendations? Preferably things that are romance-focused and not too fetish-y.

    If I managed to save stuff from my last two dead computers, I have recommends. Maybe…I’ll check! This isn’t porn, but have you watched the BBC production of Tipping the Velvet, from Sarah Waters book? It’s a really good job, with a little somethin’ somethin’ for most everyone. Besides, Jodhi May. MmmmmHmmmmmmmf.

  110. 110
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    benweaver @103

    While I *do* think *some* porn can be demeaning towards women, I don’t think that’s the case for all. Have you considered the “porn is demeaning to women” argument doesn’t hold water when gay porn exists. A more accurate statement might be:
    “Some pornography is demeaning to women”

  111. 111
    Parsnip Money

    sunnydale @107

    I believe you, I’m sorry if my previous comment came off as snarky. It’s just very different than my own personal experience. I guess the moral here is that neither of us can assume anything about what heterosexual women like or dislike without solid data to back it up. My bad!

  112. 112
    Inaji

    benweaver:

    Just another aspect of the great things in life subjected to the almighty dollar that corporate America worships. And that doesn’t bring up the fact that it is inherently demeaning to women. Most porn that actually exists is designed for a largely male audience, in which women are expected to subject themselves to the whims and fantasies of the male viewers, in order to line the pockets of the producers to the fullest extent possible.

    Cupcake, you don’t get your left-wing atheist card until you’ve managed to educate yourself properly.

  113. 113
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >I believe you, I’m sorry if my previous comment came off as snarky. <

    -No worries. I didn't read any snarkiness in your comment.
    You're right, too, about not making assumptions. Far too many people do that (as well as sweeping generalizations). Which makes it so amusing when people bring up the "porn is demeaning" canard. I don't think I always succeed, but I try not to make too many assumptions or generalizations and I notice it in conversation with people on a regular basis.

    BTW, has anyone else noticed how quickly this post has grown?

  114. 114
    Ben

    @Parsnip Money #106

    I was not claiming to speak for all left-wing atheists. It seems that the general consensus was that liberal and non-religious would be pro-porn, and that anti-porn is reserved for the religious and conservative. I was attempting to show that this is not necessarily the case.

    @sunnydale #110

    I emphasized the demeaning nature of porn for women because I think it is a far more prevalent problem. However, I think placing the profit motive on an aspect of life that is so personal is ultimately exploitative to both the men and women who do it.

  115. 115
    Ben

    @Caine #112

    Well, fortunately all I have to do to be one is to describe my political views as left-wing and my religious views as atheist, and do not have to submit myself to Caine’s application process.

  116. 116
    Inaji

    Sunnydale75:

    BTW, has anyone else noticed how quickly this post has grown?

    Pffft, this is nothing. Watch one of the posts/threads on sexism or feminism sometime. Those hit 400 to 600 comments in under 6 hours.

  117. 117
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Oh, and as for the “would you want your daughter to appear in porn” argument?

    Even supposing it were an issue for me…

    Given the amount of historical sexism in blue-collar jobs, the fact that the work might involve time spent alone in people’s houses who might be MRAs or such, the declining wages for blue-collar jobs, and various other issues, I wouldn’t be thrilled about my daughter wanting to become a plumber.

    Yet somehow I feel completely guiltless about taking a shit.

  118. 118
    Inaji

    benweaver:

    Well, fortunately all I have to do to be one is to describe my political views as left-wing and my religious views as atheist, and do not have to submit myself to Caine’s application process.

    Actually, you have to pass everyone’s application process if you expect anyone to give a shit about your pontifications. You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to porn, so why don’t you work on that?

  119. 119
    cswella

    As a left-wing atheist, I think porn is by and large a bad thing. Just another aspect of the great things in life subjected to the almighty dollar that corporate America worships. And that doesn’t bring up the fact that it is inherently demeaning to women. Most porn that actually exists is designed for a largely male audience, in which women are expected to subject themselves to the whims and fantasies of the male viewers, in order to line the pockets of the producers to the fullest extent possible.

    “Most porn that…” Are you implying that you’ve watched most of the porn that has ever exists?

    Do what everyone else who is anti-corporate does, find a non-corporate alternative. Namely amateur porn.

    Have you not been reading any of the comments? We have plenty of people talking about the positive pornography that exists in abundance. There’s a blogger in freethoughtblogs.com who used to do “by women for women” porn. Amateur porn is rising in popularity and access. Stop buying the “insert porn movie name” volume 63 stuff.
    +++++++++

    Curious, does anyone else think that these “porn is bad because it exploits women” people are being anti-feminism? Feels like most of the statements are along the vein of overprotective behavior.

  120. 120
    davo_301

    hmmm my porn name is Lady Summerset… hmmm wonder what job i’l be offered with that

  121. 121
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I emphasized the demeaning nature of porn for women because I think it is a far more prevalent problem. However, I think placing the profit motive on an aspect of life that is so personal is ultimately exploitative to both the men and women who do it.

    Is being a commercial artist demeaning as well? What about a chef?

    …can we pretty please finally kill off this stupid idea that sex is this weird magical thing where none of the normal rules and logic apply?

  122. 122
    shoshidge

    My nom de Porneau is Emerson Powers.
    I’m not morally offended by porn, and I’m glad that there is enlightened, non-demeaning-to-women stuff out there, but you have to be pretty blinkered not to notice the fact that a disturbing proportion of straight porn is blatantly misogynistic and sadistic.
    And unrealistic, most women don’t actually look like that, moan like that, or shave their pubes, and they aren’t all into taking it in the ass either,(which seems to be the finale of almost every straight porn scene these days).
    This does have an effect on young minds.
    The girl who used to babysit my kids admitted to me in a candid coversation a few years ago that it was seen as prudish among some in her high school clique, to not be into anal.
    This expectation can be safely assumed to be the result of modern pornography.
    Also, while my wife looks great for her age, I would be foolish to think that the notion of her husband jerking off while watching the contortions of twenty year-old hardbody porn stars in his free time wouldn’t be hurtful to self esteem and sense of security.

    The best porn is in your imagination, you can imagine doing whatever to whoever and it’s free, safe in the shower, no one is exploited or abused and your mom/wife/girlfriend will never discover your stash

  123. 123
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Curious, does anyone else think that these “porn is bad because it exploits women” people are being anti-feminism?

    I do. I’ve been saying for quite a while that when this is made as a general statement about the inherent qualities of pornography (and therefore distinct from a critique of specific practices of specific studios and companies) it’s fundamentally premised on denying the agency (at least, the sexual agency) of women. And on that basis, really creepy. It’s nice to not feel like such a lone voice in the wilderness anymore >.>

  124. 124
    Aquaria

    Being a gay man, I certainly enjoy gay porn (straight porn too, for that matter). I’ve never met a heterosexual female who happens to enjoy watching gay porn.

    Get out more.

    I’m around 99% heterosexual, and gay porn is the only porn I enjoy.

    You were saying?

    Otrame summed it up fairly well:

    And I really like gay porn. (“Two cocks are better than one”?) That may seem a little weird, given that I am a 60-something straight woman, but what the hell. And I agree with Josh. I prefer more realistic porn, not a bunch of oiled-up musclebound guys with huge schlongs (which they have difficulty keeping erect). Ewwww.

    I don’t have a problem with the muscle-bound part. And I wouldn’t have a problem if we saw what the oil was trying to replicate, which is genuine sweat on a human being. I’m so sick of Americans who act like sweat is more disgusting than slime. It’s not always bad! If I see it in porn, I know the people are actually going at it!

    There’s the sweat of exertion, which is totally sexy to me on men, and then there’s flop sweat, nervous sweat, which is a total turn off. I wish Americans understood the difference.

    And, for pity’s sake, would someone please–please–put hair back on everyone? I love the normal hair that men have on their arms, legs, pits, crotch and yes, even chest hair and beards. I’m sure a lot of men love women with bushes. Trim it a little if it’s really out of control, but good grief, the hairless bodies creeps me the fuck out. It makes me think someone has filmed children fucking.

    Think about it: What separates adults from children is BODY HAIR!

    BRING BACK BODY HAIR!

  125. 125
    cicely

    I’d say that a previous career in porn wouldn’t necessarily be an insurmountable handicap…especially if the hypothetical candidate could put on a convincing “born again” act, ideally in the zealously-fundie camp. An ability to weep like a televangelist (or Glenn Beck) would be a big plus.
    -

    Fox News host should be a far greater barrier to electability than porn star.

    Shoulda woulda coulda.

    (I have this nagging suspicion that Huckabee stepped away from the Rep. candidacy and into that Faux Newz gig in the hope of building up a solid fandom (a la Beck) to support a run at it in the next Presidential elections. Sound crazy to y’all?)
    -

  126. 126
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    BS my friend, as it is so evidently true that you cannot predict what you would believe about your children before you have them. You can’t understand cigarettes before you smoke them and you can’t understand travellling to exotic places before you do that (mind expansion etc…). The same way you can believe that you would encourage your children into porn BUT you CAN NOT know how you would feel when you have them. Believe me it changes you, you DO NOT know what you will think about these things before you have tried them.

    If it’s so evidently true that the only way to have any insight into something is to experience it directly, how come I’m not seeing it and you’re not providing evidence for it?

  127. 127
    Nitric Acid

    I remember a few years ago, an old friend (who was once the most sex-positive woman I ever met) called me up in tears because she had found out that her husband had been looking at porn. She considered it practically adultery, since he had been with other women in his mind.

  128. 128
    Aquaria

    Well, what separates them besides the boobs and genitalia.

  129. 129
    Parsnip Money

    benweaver @114

    “I emphasized the demeaning nature of porn for women because I think it is a far more prevalent problem. However, I think placing the profit motive on an aspect of life that is so personal is ultimately exploitative to both the men and women who do it.”

    What does this even mean? You’re against porn because it’s ‘demeaning to women,’ which is, as discussed above, a bullshit argument. But you’re also against porn because…people make a profit out of it? And this is somehow ‘exploitative’ of the men and women who elect to participate in porn? Sounds to me like you’re just personally anti-porn and reaching for any argument to justify your own disgust. Guess what, cupcake…just because you don’t like porn doesn’t mean it’s evil.

  130. 130
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Think about it: What separates adults from children is BODY HAIR!

    See, that’s the thing that mystifies me. Having engaged in some heavy petting with a same-age girlfriend in middle school, bathed my daughter, and had sexual encounters with adult women who shaved…

    The non-hair-based differences in genital anatomy between pre- and post- pubescents are really, really strikingly obvious. Do other people really not notice them? That’s kind of creepy. O.o

  131. 131
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    benweaver:
    -I think though, that you’re making an implicit assumption that other people agree with your views on sex being a personal thing. I’m sure many people agree with you. I’m sure many don’t. I’m sure there are people that think sex can be many different things, including personal.
    Also, the “Porn is Demeaning to Women” argument is far too broad to work as an argument against porn. Gay porn exists. A *lot* of it (trust me). I’m going to make an assumption here (which I don’t do often), and say that there’s probably more gay male than lesbian (I love venturing to adult video stores when I travel; in fact, it’s pretty much always on my list of places to go when I travel; I’ve rarely seen a lesbian section, and when I have, it’s miniscule) porn. I suppose gay porn could be seen as demeaning to men, but I’m not certain that even if it is, it would be to the same degree that some think straight porn is to women.
    I’d like to see “porn is demeaning to women” disappear as an argument. It’s far too sweeping a generalization.

  132. 132
    Tethys

    I would assume a combination of not having hair getting in the way during oral sex or other kinds of stimulation, and spiting the old people “GET OFF MY LAWN”ing about it. >.>

    Funny. I was specifically thinking of male chest hair, which I find quite aesthetically pleasing. ^-^

  133. 133
    Inaji

    shoshidge, did you bother to read Greta Christina’s post? Try it. A lot of what you brought up is addressed by amateur porn, which is gaining ground in huge strides over commercial crap.

    One of Greta Christina’s regrets about not being able to do porn now is that there is a shortage of role models for those of us who are a certain age:

    I would freaking love to do porn now. I’m more comfortable and more happy with my body than I have been in a very long time. And I would love to share that… for my own exhibitionistic pleasure, and for the sake of others. There aren’t a lot of role models for women of my age — I’m turning 50 at the end of this year — being openly and brazenly sexual, being comfortable and happy with their bodies and their sexualities and proudly celebrating them. I would love to be one of those role models. If I was ever going to do porn or nude pictures, now would be the time.

    Pretending there’s nothing out there except commercial crap is not only silly, but it does nothing to help promote porn that is done with enthusiasm, no exploitation and happily explores different types of sex, ages, body types, etc.

  134. 134
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Funny. I was specifically thinking of male chest hair, which I find quite aesthetically pleasing. ^-^

    Ah. No clue then. I usually hear getoffmylawning about pubic shaving. >.>

  135. 135
    Alteredstory

    Well, I can’t make a rational argument for porn making someone automatically un-credible, but in terms of teaching, I can see it having an influence on your interaction with students. Whether it SHOULD cause problems is a different matter, of course.

    As to the politician thing, I think a person who USED to do porn, and then “found jesus” could probably make a career as a politician more easily than an “out of the closet” atheist.

  136. 136
    nanahuatzin

    Open request to the pharyngulites hordes…

    This is a survey from the Colombian Congress about a proposed bill to allow gay marriage.

    http://www.camara.gov.co/portal2011/encuestas/apoll/5-iaprueba-usted-el-proyecto-de-ley-que-habla-sobre-el-matrimonio-en-el-mismo-sexo

    ¿¿Aprueba usted el proyecto de ley que habla sobre el matrimonio en el mismo sexo??

    Do you approve the bill that talks about same sex marriage?

    yes/no

    The “no” is winning, i think it could be tilted in the right way…

    thanks

  137. 137
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    As to the politician thing, I think a person who USED to do porn, and then “found jesus” could probably make a career as a politician more easily than an “out of the closet” atheist.

    There’s a webcomic that’s stuck with me. The punchline is “I USED T’GO DOWN ON PORN STARS…BUT NOW I GO DOWN ON JESUS!”

  138. 138
    Inaji

    Gawdess Melanie:

    The same way you can believe that you would encourage your children into porn BUT you CAN NOT know how you would feel when you have them. Believe me it changes you, you DO NOT know what you will think about these things before you have tried them.

    Protip: speak only for yourself and do not insist that other people will feel differently when ______. Most of the people here are parents and a lot of them are dealing with their children in ways which would probably shock your traditional little socks.

  139. 139
    SallyStrange

    so liberal that it hurts.

    Yer doing it wrong.

    Yet somehow I feel completely guiltless about taking a shit.

    Really? Cuz when I take a shit, it’s hard not to think about the vast quantities of potable water I’m wasting every time I flush the toilet, not to mention the fact that the shit itself could be a resource to be incorporated into an energy-creating system of ecological recovery of biological nutrients rather than a dangerous and useless waste product that does nothing except absorb fossil fuel energy and add pollutants like chlorine to the local hydrological cycle.

  140. 140
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    As a left-wing atheist, I think porn is by and large a bad thing.

    As a left-wing atheist, I enjoy porn and I think sweeping moral condemnation makes one look like a silly and prudish caricature.

    Just another aspect of the great things in life subjected to the almighty dollar that corporate America worships.

    People like to get off, sugar dumplin’. People also like to make money. Some people make money by helping other people get off. Unless you’re living in the nonsensical, unexplainable money-free world of the Star Trek Federation, you’ll realize economic transactions are an ordinary and inevitable part of the human experience.

    And that doesn’t bring up the fact that it is inherently demeaning to women

    Citation very, very badly needed.

    Christ on a crutch-are you even aware there’s a fuckboat of pron in which women make no appearance whatsoever?

  141. 141
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And, for pity’s sake, would someone please–please–put hair back on everyone? I love the normal hair that men have on their arms, legs, pits, crotch and yes, even chest hair and beards. I’m sure a lot of men love women with bushes.

    Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Five-thousand times yes.

  142. 142
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Get out more.

    I’m around 99% heterosexual, and gay porn is the only porn I enjoy.

    You were saying? <

    -I currently live in Pensacola, FL-the zipper of the pants on the bible belt. I've noticed people don't feel comfortable talking about sex, let alone the type of porn they watch. It doesn't stop me from trying to get people to articulate their views though. One of my favorite things to chat about is sex. Not just any particular aspect of it, but just talk in general. I love reminding people that sex is natural and it's nothing to be embarrassed about. Of course, we all know how religion poisons things…

  143. 143
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I remember a few years ago, an old friend (who was once the most sex-positive woman I ever met) called me up in tears because she had found out that her husband had been looking at porn. She considered it practically adultery, since he had been with other women in his mind.

    Sigh. Slow head shake. I’m sorry my friends, but it’s true: only straight people can come up with such weak sauce drama. It wouldn’t even occur to a gay male couple — you’d get laughed out of the bar without pity if you said something so patently stupid.

    Another favorite Dramatic Non-Event of conventionalized suburban straight people – calling up radio agony aunts and wondering “what I’m doing wrong” after discovering your partner masturbating. Jeezis Christ.

  144. 144
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    calling up radio agony aunts and wondering “what I’m doing wrong” after discovering your partner masturbating

    “Understanding human sexuality?”

  145. 145
    Ben

    @Azkyroth @121

    What about the sale of parental rights? Adoption is legal, giving money is legal, so why shouldn’t it be legal to give money in exchange for adoption?

    Organ donation is legal, and giving money is legal. Why shouldn’t it be legal to give money in exchange for an organ donation?

    Volunteering one’ labor is legal, and giving money is legal. Why shouldn’t it be legal to agree to work at a rate lower than the level required by law?

    You’re not the only one who can construct slippery slopes.

    @cswella #119

    I am certainly not implying that. I am basing my conclusion on my own (admittedly non-random) sample of experiences of exposure to porn. I used to think that there was something wrong with me when an acquaintance would put some porn on, and without exception I would find it revolting rather than arousing.

  146. 146
    Aquaria

    I emphasized the demeaning nature of porn for women because I think it is a far more prevalent problem. However, I think placing the profit motive on an aspect of life that is so personal is ultimately exploitative to both the men and women who do it.

    There is a case to be made that porn is exploitative of women. I don’t know about now, but not so long ago, most of the women in porn weren’t there because they wanted to be, really. They were drugged, they were forced by pimps, and so on. This is not good. I don’t think anyone would think that drugging or coercing women to perform sexually for a camera is a good thing.

    I think when a lot of feminists raise concerns about exploitation in porn, they are distinguishing between video porn and the more exploitative treatment of women as consumer product in photographic porn.

    And there is a vast difference between video porn and photographic porn. Think about the latter, and how so much of it is of nothing but women exposed for the pleasure of (overwhelmingly) men. Playboy is a lot more exploitative to me than, say, Debbie Does Dallas. Debbie Does Dallas is stupid, but it’s fantasy about men and women getting it on, as a commodity. Playboy is about women exposed as a commodity.

    Does that make sense?

    Maybe not. I just woke up, though, so I’m probably not making any sense.

  147. 147
    SallyStrange

    calling up radio agony aunts and wondering “what I’m doing wrong” after discovering your partner masturbating. Jeezis Christ.

    Ugh. Strangeboyfriend and I have been living in different states for about a month now and one of the first things we talked about was how he needed to get internet service so’s he doesn’t run up the charges on his phone by looking at porn. We also talk about how masturbating isn’t quite as nice as sex, but hey, at least his hand isn’t as annoying as I can be!

    I seriously can’t even deal with people who are that prudish. Fuck the Puritans, my obnoxious ancestors.

  148. 148
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    > I remember a few years ago, an old friend (who was once the most sex-positive woman I ever met) called me up in tears because she had found out that her husband had been looking at porn. She considered it practically adultery, since he had been with other women in his mind. <

    -I find the idea that "watching porn=practically adultery" to be flat out ridiculous (I'm not dating anyone right now, but if I had a boyfriend, would it be "practically adultery" if he saw me watching Ultimate Fighter b/c some of the guys are hot?). I hope your friend found a positive way of dealing with her issue (such as talking to her husband in an open and honest way and allowing him to do the same).

  149. 149
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    What about the sale of parental rights? Adoption is legal, giving money is legal, so why shouldn’t it be legal to give money in exchange for adoption?

    Oh, honestly. Try harder.

    I used to think that there was something wrong with me when an acquaintance would put some porn on, and without exception I would find it revolting rather than arousing.

    There is something wrong with you. That something is your idea that Capital P Pr0n is inherently wrong, and that other people who don’t agree with Ben’s Personal Comfort Level and Aesthetic Sensibilities have something wrong with them.

    Now, if the people you hang out with are in the habit of casually putting on porn during a potluck or a casual evening of drinks then you may be hanging out some very socially inept—if not downright creepy—people to be sure. But it’s about context, not content.

  150. 150
    Tethys

    but good grief, the hairless bodies creeps me the fuck out. It makes me think someone has filmed children fucking

    It makes me think of animated (and anatomically correct) Barbie and Ken dolls.

    OT

    Sally. So cool! I’ve tried to convince my city to update its urban planning to include green solutions like your link. Unsurprisingly, the people in charge are resistant to change.

  151. 151
    Weedless Monkey

    Gawdess Melanie

    No way anyone who has not had children can say this because your thoughts and priorities change so much.

    That’s your magickal mommy knowledge talking.

    —–

    pj, you can’t mean anyone else but Silvia Modig. As a Fenno-Swede, non-hetero and representative of the Left Alliance she’s so fractally deep in minorities most people probably just skip over and ignore her.

  152. 152
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I hope your friend found a positive way of dealing with her issue (such as talking to her husband in an open and honest way and allowing him to do the same).

    Or better yet, becoming a real grown-up human being who doesn’t fall to pieces when her partner just wants a wank. Shit, maybe they could even find a video they both liked and fuck their brains out sans the unnecessary ridiculousness.

  153. 153
    SallyStrange

    Saying that porn is inherently degrading because some porn exploits women makes as much sense as saying that agriculture is inherently degrading because some agriculture exploits impoverished peasants.

    A lot of porn is really disgusting, misogynist, and really really unhealthy for anyone to be watching, teenagers especially.

    However the solution to this problem is (in my mind) more & better sex-positive porn that’s respectful towards all participants, not the complete elimination of porn, which is impossible anyway.

    I know some feminists, like Skeptifem, have a very different opinion on it, and I respect their opinion, but I also disagree most emphatically.

  154. 154
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I know some feminists, like Skeptifem, have a very different opinion on it, and I respect their opinion,

    I don’t, and I won’t pretend to. Skeptifem is wicked smart and worth listening to, but her opinion about porn is reactionary, shallow and absurd. It’s not an opinion worth respecting because it’s knee-jerk and completely resistant to new information.

  155. 155
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Jeezis Christ.

    I’ll second that expletive.

  156. 156
    'Tis Himself

    calling up radio agony aunts and wondering “what I’m doing wrong” after discovering your partner masturbating

    Not doing anything wrong. The wife and I masturbate when one of us is horny and the other isn’t. When my wife was undergoing chemotherapy she was definitely in unhorny mode, so I beat off a lot.

  157. 157
    SallyStrange

    OT

    Sally. So cool! I’ve tried to convince my city to update its urban planning to include green solutions like your link. Unsurprisingly, the people in charge are resistant to change.

    It’s not really that OT, in that you can find things to feel guilty about in just about ANY aspect of modern life, especially when it comes to consuming things. Food, transportation, housing, whatever. There are links in every system where some person or being is being degraded and exploited. Yet people still focus their guilt on sex, sex, sex. It’s not rational at all. It is clearly a legacy, as I said, of my obnoxious asshole ancestors.

    Fun fact: did you know that William Bradford, the governor of Plymouth Plantation, to whom I’m related (like several thousand other Americans are), ordered the execution of a 17-year-old boy who was discovered fucking a mare, and confessed to fucking several more animals, including a cow, two goats, five sheep, two calves and a turkey? The animals were also slaughtered and their carcasses were not put to any helpful use, in accordance with the laws of Leviticus.

  158. 158
    Gawdess Melanie

    Protip: speak only for yourself and do not insist that other people will feel differently when ______. Most of the people here are parents and a lot of them are dealing with their children in ways which would probably shock your traditional little socks.

    …no I will not be shocked because I have been around the block many times!. But I can definately tell you that you do not know what it having a baby is like until you have had a baby. And here’s some biology for you…there are hormones in having a baby and they WILL effect your brain…so then you MUST change after a baby if you like that or not.It is not an argument just the truth…women’s opinions cannot stay the same before and after a baby…IT CHANGES STUFF!

  159. 159
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Not doing anything wrong. The wife and I masturbate when one of us is horny and the other isn’t. When my wife was undergoing chemotherapy she was definitely in unhorny mode, so I beat off a lot.

    Of course, ‘Tis, just as you’d expect any sensible couple would. I just cannot understand the apparently widespread idea (in Suburbia) that masturbation is a second-tier, much-less-to-be-preferred substitute for “the real thing.” It’s its own thing. What an impoverished, constricting view of sexuality to believe one must be every fantasy, all the time, to prevent one’s partner from “resorting” to wanking.

  160. 160
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I don’t, and I won’t pretend to. Skeptifem is wicked smart and worth listening to, but her opinion about porn is reactionary, shallow and absurd. It’s not an opinion worth respecting because it’s knee-jerk and completely resistant to new information.

    Ten-to-the-second-ed. >.>

  161. 161
    Tethys

    wondering “what I’m doing wrong” after discovering your partner masturbating. Jeezis Christ.

    Joining in the fun? Fuck but some people are completely lacking in imagination when it comes to sex.

    Oddly, thats also my chief quibble with much of the available porn. It’s not all about penetration dammit.

  162. 162
    SallyStrange

    …no I will not be shocked because I have been around the block many times!. But I can definately tell you that you do not know what it having a baby is like until you have had a baby. And here’s some biology for you…there are hormones in having a baby and they WILL effect your brain…so then you MUST change after a baby if you like that or not.It is not an argument just the truth…women’s opinions cannot stay the same before and after a baby…IT CHANGES STUFF!

    My boyfriend’s mother, who beat her son with a belt many times over the course of his childhood, insists that once I reproduce, I will understand that it’s totally necessary to hit small children.

    If postnatal hormones are so debilitating that they would cause me to lose track of my moral sense that tells me that hitting small children is inherently wrong, then I don’t understand how we could have possibly survived as a species.

    This “you’ll change your mind when you have kids” thing has always seemed like self-serving bullshit to me. A handy way to escape criticism of genuine mistakes that you may have made as a a parent.

  163. 163
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    It is not an argument just the truth…women’s opinions cannot stay the same before and after a baby…IT CHANGES STUFF!

    And so? Even if your experience were universal—and you cannot possibly know that it is so do stop with that obnoxious certainty—that in no way demonstrates that post-partum mothers will develop the same opinions you have.

    You’re not the Platonic Uber Mother, babe, and all-caps declamations don’t make your personal, emotional reactions into universal truths.

  164. 164
    Cartomancer

    Some of us rather like the smooth, hairless look on men, and find body hair a complete turn-off. I know I do…

  165. 165
    SallyStrange
    I know some feminists, like Skeptifem, have a very different opinion on it, and I respect their opinion,

    I don’t, and I won’t pretend to. Skeptifem is wicked smart and worth listening to, but her opinion about porn is reactionary, shallow and absurd. It’s not an opinion worth respecting because it’s knee-jerk and completely resistant to new information.

    Eh, I think you are more correct than me on this point. I am being overly accomodationist towards Skeptifem on account of my respect for her on other subjects.

  166. 166
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Cartomancer:

    Some of us rather like the smooth, hairless look on men, and find body hair a complete turn-off. I know I do…

    Which is fine, obviously. What I object to is the near-universal cultural enforcement of hairlessness as an aesthetic ideal that dominates porn, erotic photography, and even beauty shots these days. There’s more than a whiff of creepily enforced fashion dictate about it.

  167. 167
    Aquaria

    I currently live in Pensacola, FL-the zipper of the pants on the bible belt. I’ve noticed people don’t feel comfortable talking about sex, let alone the type of porn they watch.

    Pensacola–conservative? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Try East Texas sometime. Try Mississippi. I’ve lived in both. Pensacola is downright compared to either of those.

    Since I’ve lived in more conservative places, I know how it can seem, but I also know people in those places like about how much porn they view. The two things above all others that conservatards are good at are hypocrisy and lying to themselves and everyone else.

    It is the rare conservatard screaming about porn who isn’t a hypocrite and liar.

    We had a porn drive thru in Tyler, TX that couldn’t be shut down, for decades. It made enough money to fight the legal challenges and the periodic protests to stay open. Why? Because the very christarded holy rollers who screamed about having it shut down were the first ones at that theater when the gate opened!

    The more conservative an area is, the more likely that more porn is watched by more people:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Business/story?id=6977202&page=1#.TrtIRmBG674

  168. 168
    Inaji

    Sally Strange:

    This “you’ll change your mind when you have kids” thing has always seemed like self-serving bullshit to me.

    That’s because it is self-serving bullshit. Anyone here who has heard me speak about what mommyhood did for A and what it did to me…well, uberhormone mommies do not speak for anyone except themselves.

  169. 169
    Aquaria

    no I will not be shocked because I have been around the block many times!. But I can definately tell you that you do not know what it having a baby is like until you have had a baby.

    I do know what it’s like to have a baby. That’s why I can say that you’re full of shit. My priorities did not change all that much, besides having to devote more time than I normally would have to tending the little bugger. But my views and my attitudes–they stayed exactly the same.

    My anecdote is as good as yours, so shut the fuck up with your delusional mommy bullshit. You’re fucking annoying.

  170. 170
    Aquaria

    What happened to my “commie” in post 169? Dammit to hell! I hate html!

  171. 171
    'Tis Himself

    The more conservative an area is, the more likely that more porn is watched by more people

    We had a discussion a while ago about how a higher percentage of people in Mormon Utah subscribe to internet porn than anywhere else in the US&A.

  172. 172
    Cartomancer

    “What I object to is the near-universal cultural enforcement of hairlessness as an aesthetic ideal that dominates porn, erotic photography, and even beauty shots these days. There’s more than a whiff of creepily enforced fashion dictate about it.”

    I can’t say I’ve ever really noticed that. Then again it would be to my advantage if it were the case, so there’s no real reason why I would. In my experience there are still too many hairy men out there in the pornosphere for me to avoid!

  173. 173
    Travis

    Ugh, these porn threads always kill me inside. There are always so many blanket statements made about the evils of porn.

    Time for my rambles to begin! I imagine I will be all over the place.

    A lot of porn is absolutely awful. I die a little inside when I walk into the average sex shop and look around the porn shelves. I have no academic papers about the subject but in my experience the porn the average person seems to watch or see around is rather abysmal, things like “Bouncing Blond Bimbos Buttfucked 5″. I really wish people would search a little harder and find better porn. It is not very difficult. Then again, it might be that the crap is popular because many people seem to have amazingly limited views of what porn is and what sex can be.

    There are a few more mainstream porn stars I like. Stoya for instance. Though she might be a little weird for some because *gasp* she has hair down there!!! I also enjoy BurningAngel productions. Joanna Angel and the other models seem to enjoy what they do. I follow a number of them on twitter and read their blogs. They do not seem to be drugged up and forced against their will. I used to have a membership to kink.com as well. Not all of their stuff is great, sometimes they have regular porn stars on it and I wonder if they do not quite know what they are in for, but I like it when they have models that are actually fellow kinksters and actually enjoy it. Finally, amateur porn is great. There is a lot of good stuff out there made by people who really, really like doing it. And it just feels more real, often easier to fantasize with, because they are regular people.

    I remember a few years ago, an old friend (who was once the most sex-positive woman I ever met) called me up in tears because she had found out that her husband had been looking at porn. She considered it practically adultery, since he had been with other women in his mind.

    I cannot understand this viewpoint at all. My girlfriend and I often look at porn together. We also notice cute people when out people watching and comment on things we like about them, how they look, their clothing, etc. Why is it so terribly awful to find other people attractive?

  174. 174
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Gawdess Melanie, care to address the me, the parent on this thread that disagrees with you? Or are you just going to keep pounding that stupid “you don’t have children, you don’t know crap”?

    Funny how you ignore the person who defies your argument since clearly not all parents feel the same way you do.

    Avoiding it makes it look like your “argument” is a piece of shit that can’t stand on its own.

    Nice to know I was right that you had nothing to fucking add.

  175. 175
    Inaji

    The more conservative an area is, the more likely that more porn is watched by more people

    Christian men are major porn consumers. There’s a constant thread about porn over at RR, always asking for prayers to help with the porn addictions.

  176. 176
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I used to have a membership to kink.com as well

    Good taste! Kink.com is rowwr. Especially when they have shoots featuring real couples.

  177. 177
    Aquaria

    I can’t say I’ve ever really noticed that. Then again it would be to my advantage if it were the case, so there’s no real reason why I would. In my experience there are still too many hairy men out there in the pornosphere for me to avoid!

    Good grief–are we watching the same porn? Because the porn and ad spots that I’ve seen has been smooth-ass bodies everywhere, and it creeps me out no end. It’s like everyone hates hair.

    Sorry, but the trend has been away from hair to a disturbing degree. That’s why we’re complaining about it.

  178. 178
    Travis

    Josh Slocum,
    Thanks. If I had more money I would sign up again in an instant. But I am a bit cash strapped at the moment sadly.

  179. 179
    Gawdess Melanie

    Josh…

    Even if your experience were universal—and you cannot possibly know that it is so do stop with that obnoxious certainty

    Josh before this…

    I just cannot understand the apparently widespread idea (in Suburbia) that masturbation is a second-tier, much-less-to-be-preferred substitute for “the real thing.”

    Hey Josh that sounds like hypocrisy…Sounds like you have obnoxious certainty (quote) that suburbia have a widespread idea about something…also you claim to be gay so how can you know how the majority think? With no hint of abuse, but just referring to “apparently widespread” things which must sureley refer to the majority…which means non-gay? I think that’s fair…

  180. 180
    SallyStrange

    I really wish people would search a little harder and find better porn. It is not very difficult. Then again, it might be that the crap is popular because many people seem to have amazingly limited views of what porn is and what sex can be.

    I reckon if people were less consumed by guilt and shame when they went porn-shopping, they’d be able to be more discriminating in their tastes. Just a theory.

  181. 181
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Aquaria:
    >Pensacola–conservative? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Try East Texas sometime. Try Mississippi. I’ve lived in both. Pensacola is downright compared to either of those. <

    -Don't get me wrong, I *know* Texas is worse than Florida. I was merely saying that I find many people here are resistant to chatting about anything related to sex, and it isn't much of a stretch to believe religion has a wee bit to do with that.

  182. 182
    Tethys

    There’s more than a whiff of creepily enforced fashion dictate about it.

    Bears are damn sexy too! Variety is a good thing. I strongly resent the fashion industries narrow definition of what is attractive. I like my men manly, and my women should preferably be in thigh high boots. (I too am 99% het but I am totes willing to make exceptions for Heather Graham or Halle Berry)

  183. 183
    SallyStrange

    Gawdess Melanie is becoming quite obnoxious… you ignored Aquaria and myself, and went straight to a tu quoque against Josh? Lame, lame, lame. Saying that suburban tastes tend to be X is nowhere near as universalizing as saying, “You will all see it my way once you spawn!”

  184. 184
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Uber Mommy:

    Sounds like you have obnoxious certainty (quote) that suburbia have a widespread idea about something…also you claim to be gay so how can you know how the majority think?

    LOLWUT? “Claim” to be gay?

    And just where did I assert I knew what “the majority” thought, and why do you think I have any interest in that?

    Girl, are you daft?

  185. 185
    SallyStrange

    BTW, this $5 wine is quite nice… I highly recommend getting slightly toasted whilst participating in an internet discussion about porn.

  186. 186
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Girl, are you daft?

    She’s afloat on a wave of Uberhormones and knows it all, yessss, she does, she’s Uberhormonemommy!

  187. 187
    Hairhead

    Ah, porn! I wax brought up on ’70′s Playboy and Penthouse, when in my mid-teens, so I have been “impressed” by the full pubic hair look (and feel, and smell, and opportunities for play, and etc.) But I gave up Playboy and Penthouse by 21, because I found them, oddly enough, to totally immature and boring in their attitude towards sex and women.

    From then until about five years ago, I’d occasionally watch the commercial pornography available, and found it mostly dull, repetitive and unrealistic. But! HD cams, broadband, and the Internet= real porn made by real people! Amateur porn is fun, amateur porn is amusing, amateur porn is unintimidating, amateur porn is like a mirror for my now-middle-fifties body, and helps keep me enjoying sex without guilt.

    P.S. – And since one of my biggest turn-ons in a woman is . . . BRAINS (zombie drool), I would definitely download any porn that Greta Christina put up.

    P.P.S. – I’m an employment counsellor, and I’ve been seeing people in shitty jobs with shitty, exploitive, abusive bosses and horrible, dangerous work environments for twenty years now. If my son (who is young, but very handsome) wanted to work his way through university doing porn, I’d tell him that it beats the shit out of doing the dishes!

  188. 188
    SallyStrange

    “Claim” to be gay?

    Yeah, PROVE that you’re gay, Josh. RIGHT NOW.

    Well, in one sec… let me get my camera… okay, NOW prove that you’re gay!

  189. 189
    Inaji

    SallyStrange:

    I highly recommend getting slightly toasted whilst participating in an internet discussion about porn.

    I wish I could. I’m going to have to get alternative refreshments.

  190. 190
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >>Hey Josh that sounds like hypocrisy…<<

    –I didn't read any hypocrisy. I see it as two things:

    1-you can't take a subjective experience and turn it into a universal

    &

    2-there's apparently widespread ideas about masturbation

  191. 191
    SallyStrange

    I wish I could. I’m going to have to get alternative refreshments.

    Aww, shucks. I wish I could send you a Star Trek: TNG machine that would create for you the beverage of your choice that wouldn’t mess with your pancreas.

    “Computer, I’d like a ‘magic’ lassi, with a ball of hash about two inches across. Pistachio flavored, please.”

  192. 192
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Gawdess Melanie

    Hey Josh that sounds like hypocrisy…Sounds like you have obnoxious certainty (quote) that suburbia have a widespread idea about something…also you claim to be gay so how can you know how the majority think? With no hint of abuse, but just referring to “apparently widespread” things which must sureley refer to the majority…which means non-gay? I think that’s fair…

    So you ignore the parents on this thread that directy contradict you, you keep repeating “you can’t know until you’re a parent” and then claim that a gay man can’t possibly know what is going on in straight suburbia? Because you can only know whats going on there if you live in straight suburbia. Because its not like gay people are born to straight suburbia, and they can’t live there obviouly and they just can’t understand us straight people?
    Not to mention the whole “with no hint of abuse”, which reeks of “don’t take this the wrong way but I’m going to say something horribly fucking offensive.”
    So much wrong in that short little paragraph.
    WTF is wrong with you?

    FUCK OFF.

  193. 193
    picool

    The “porn is degrading to women” attitude comes directly from the belief that sex is bad and that women are damaged by it. Porn can be exploitative of women (and men), but one would be hard pressed to find an occupation that can’t lead to exploitation.

    People can come to their careers for a variety of reasons. I know doctors that hate being doctors and would have done anything else but for extreme familial pressure, but no one thinks that the doctors are being degraded by doing something they don’t want to do. There are undoubtedly porn stars (perhaps even “commercial” porn stars) who went into porn because they enjoy doing porn.

    Degradation is in the eye of the voyeur.

  194. 194
    SallyStrange

    O yes, the Gawdess ignored Just_A_Lurker as well.

    Poor form, Gawdess Melanie. Very poor form.

  195. 195
    Pteryxx

    Yeah, PROVE that you’re gay, Josh. RIGHT NOW.

    Well, in one sec… let me get my camera… okay, NOW prove that you’re gay!

    ♥♥♥ so much…

  196. 196
    Tethys

    you claim to be gay so how can you know how the majority think?

    This is a perfectly vile thing to say to another person! Take your bigoted hateful self elsewhere. I feel very sorry for your child to have such an narrow minded and cruel mother.

  197. 197
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Yeah, PROVE that you’re gay, Josh. RIGHT NOW.

    Umm. Kay.

    The biggest fuck-up in the filming of Mommie Dearest was the scene where Joan lay on a divan with a towel on her head, having taken young Christina’s (played by Mara Hobel) dolls out of her room. When brat comes in to complain, Joan pulls down the sleeves of her dressing gown *twice*, through bad editing, when she puts lotion on her elbows.

    The second-biggest fuck-up was the scene in which young Christina went to fix “Uncle Greg” a drink at the bar (while her slutty mom Joan was fixin’ to take off her pumps upstairs) and the camera panned to a plastic spray bottle of Fantastik, which hadn’t been invented in the period.

    Satisfied?

  198. 198
    Inaji

    Sally Strange:

    “Computer, I’d like a ‘magic’ lassi, with a ball of hash about two inches across. Pistachio flavored, please.”

    Ooooh. If there were such a thing, I’d employ beg you to be my special programmer of refreshments. Oh yeah.

    J_A_L:

    Because its not like gay people are born to straight suburbia, and they can’t live there obviouly and they just can’t understand us straight people?

    Of course not! According to Uberhormonemommy, everyone is in a little box and they stay in that box. Always!

  199. 199
    SallyStrange

    Satisfied?

    Only rarely. But that’s not really your fault; after all, you ARE gay.

  200. 200
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Satisfied?

    No, darling. You didn’t talk about the clothes enough.

  201. 201
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    The girl who used to babysit my kids admitted to me in a candid coversation a few years ago that it was seen as prudish among some in her high school clique, to not be into anal.
    This expectation can be safely assumed to be the result of modern pornography.

    Why?

  202. 202
    McCthulhu

    We have empirical evidence that both porn stars and atheists are electable in European countries. Wasn’t that Italian woman, Cicciolina both?

    Unfortunately, the think inside the bible box contingent of US society continues to impede anything resembling progress beyond crass superstition and elected officials that are batshit crazy.

  203. 203
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Caine, Fleur du Mal

    Of course not! According to Uberhormonemommy, everyone is in a little box and they stay in that box. Always!

    *snort* No wonder she ignores me, can’t fit me into a box so clearly I don’t really exist.

    I have a delightful image of the Horde crashing her stereotypical-white-suburbia-women-drinking-book club to introduce her to reality.

    *giggle*

  204. 204
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    I win.

    Tiger Dominion.

    Yeah baby, I have the best porn name EVAH! Clearly I’m a Domme.

  205. 205
    SallyStrange

    If there were such a thing, I’d beg you to be my special programmer of refreshments. Oh yeah.

    There IS such a thing! I have tasted it, and it made the colors bleed and my knees go all wobbly. And it was quite delicious.

    Sadly, one must travel to the Pushkar Camel Fair in Rajasthan, India, in order to taste it.

    Watching colors bleed while beautiful women dance in their traditional brightly colored costumes with mirrors sewn into the dresses to intense drumming under a star-strewn sky in the middle of the desert, surrounded by thousands of lowing camels is an unforgettable experience.

    I suppose one could recreate the beverage, given a sufficient quantity of hash and pistachios, but definitely not the experience.

  206. 206
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    No, darling. You didn’t talk about the clothes enough.

    GIRL. Them clothes was fierce. Especially the shoulder-pad-stravaganzas they wriggled her into. The only time I’ve come close to a similarly earth-shuddering costume orgasm was watching them dress up Madonna in Evita. Victory roll hair and Dior New Look suits in the same picture? Fetch me a towel.

  207. 207
    Nitric Acid

    What I’m sure caused my friend’s transformation from sex-positive woman to agony aunt was her conversion to Moronism. (Is there supposed to be a second “M” there? Didn’t think so.) This was the same person who thought the “Starship Troopers” movie was inappropriate for children, not because people were being torn into pieces by giant bugs, but because women were showing their chests.

    Of course, I can mock my mormonic friend all I want, but I don’t even know what my wife’s opinion on porn is. I can guess by the way she refuses to talk about sex, though, and I suspect it would be similar.

  208. 208
    SallyStrange
    The girl who used to babysit my kids admitted to me in a candid coversation a few years ago that it was seen as prudish among some in her high school clique, to not be into anal.
    This expectation can be safely assumed to be the result of modern pornography.

    Why?

    Well, anal is QUITE the thing in porn these days, and it’s safe to say that it has more to do with the aesthetic of penetration and domination than it has anything to do with the women’s enjoyment of it.

    Remember the Yalie frat chant? “No means yes, yes means anal.”

  209. 209
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Tiger Dominion.

    Yeah baby, I have the best porn name EVAH! Clearly I’m a Domme.

    I do declare, Alethea, with a hawt name like that you may well be man enough for me! Snuggle up, sparkle-britches:)

  210. 210
    A. R

    OT/With regards to refreshments, I’m drinking a nice Riesling right now/

    Anyway:

    J_A_L: Your views on homosexuality are bizarre at best, homophobic at worst. (Hope I read the thread correctly threadziens, I’ve spent way too much time with my head stuck in a biochemistry reference book tonight to think clearly)

  211. 211
    Inaji

    Azkyroth:

    Why?

    I’d like an answer to that as well. Anal has gotten played up a lot because of worries about pregnancy and for a lot of teens, it isn’t considered to be actual sex, given that it’s not the traditional ‘penis in vagina’ sex, neither of which has anything to do with porn.

  212. 212
    Travis

    The girl who used to babysit my kids admitted to me in a candid coversation a few years ago that it was seen as prudish among some in her high school clique, to not be into anal.

    Weird. I have not really met anyone who thought it was prudish to not like anal, and I have talked a lot about anal sex. Now, I would say it is prudish to think that anal sex is just so icky and gross and people should not like it, I mean, who could like that? Grosssssss!!!!! That is an attitude I have definitely come across far more often.

  213. 213
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    J_A_L: Your views on homosexuality are bizarre at best, homophobic at worst. (Hope I read the thread correctly threadziens, I’ve spent way too much time with my head stuck in a biochemistry reference book tonight to think clearly)

    Wait, what?

  214. 214
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >BTW, this $5 wine is quite nice… I highly recommend getting slightly toasted whilst participating in an internet discussion about porn. <

    –since we're talking about porn, should we also be naked? FTB meets Dionysus.

  215. 215
    Tethys

    Watching colors bleed while beautiful women dance in their traditional brightly colored costumes with mirrors sewn into the dresses to intense drumming under a star-strewn sky in the middle of the desert, surrounded by thousands of lowing camels is an unforgettable experience.

    This sounds wonderfully fantastic.

    Sally, you are IMO quite gifted as a writer. I can almost hear the music.

    Caine

    If I ever come visit, I will be sure to bring some lovely pistachio colored alternate refreshments.

  216. 216
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Now, I would say it is prudish to think that anal sex is just so icky and gross and people should not like it, I mean, who could like that? Grosssssss!!!!! That is an attitude I have definitely come across far more often.

    Oh, memories. The night I sat down and came out to my mother at 12 years old we had a similar conversation. So hell-bent on seeming as un-freakish as possible as I told her I was gay, I made some dismissive remark about how “nasty” anal sex was (like I fucking knew. .hello?). My mom said sniffily, “Well, I can think of much cleaner things to do when you love someone.”

    We both get lots of giggles about it now.

  217. 217
    Inaji

    Josh:

    GIRL. Them clothes was fierce.

    I gotta ask, what did you think about Joan’s clothes in Johnny Guitar? She looked so right in jeans, a western shirt and scarf that it was a stone fucking shock to see her in a frilly prairie dress.

  218. 218
    SallyStrange
    J_A_L: Your views on homosexuality are bizarre at best, homophobic at worst. (Hope I read the thread correctly threadziens, I’ve spent way too much time with my head stuck in a biochemistry reference book tonight to think clearly)

    Wait, what?

    I think he has you confused with Gawdess Melanie.

    BTW, this $5 wine is quite nice… I highly recommend getting slightly toasted whilst participating in an internet discussion about porn.

    –since we’re talking about porn, should we also be naked? FTB meets Dionysus.

    Wait, y’all are NOT naked? Weird.

  219. 219
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I’d like an answer to that as well. Anal has gotten played up a lot because of worries about pregnancy and for a lot of teens, it isn’t considered to be actual sex, given that it’s not the traditional ‘penis in vagina’ sex, neither of which has anything to do with porn.

    Not to mention that…

    Now, I would say it is prudish to think that anal sex is just so icky and gross and people should not like it, I mean, who could like that? Grosssssss!!!!!

    THIS is prevalent enough and socially reinforced enough to give defying it some serious “edgy and transgressive” traction…

  220. 220
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Umm. Kay.

    The biggest fuck-up in the filming of Mommie Dearest was the scene where Joan lay on a divan with a towel on her head, having taken young Christina’s (played by Mara Hobel) dolls out of her room. <

    -Oooooh, can I play?
    Wait, I've never seen Mommie Dearest (and boy I've heard from so many friends that I need to see it). Does that make me not gay? Or not so gay?
    I don't like Priscilla, Queen of the Desert either, so that's another point off the gay column.
    However, I love Sex and the City and Too Wong Fu, Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar, so I guess I get those points back.

  221. 221
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I think he has you confused with Gawdess Melanie.

    Oh god I hope so. I expect and want to be corrected if I do say something bigoted but I honestly have no clue what hes talking about. Unless he confused me with Gawdess Melanie, or misread my comment replying to her.

  222. 222
    Inaji

    A.R.:

    J_A_L: Your views on homosexuality are bizarre at best, homophobic at worst.

    Way to be an idiot.

    Sunnydale75:

    –since we’re talking about porn, should we also be naked?

    We’re supposed to be clothed? What?

    Tethys:

    If I ever come visit, I will be sure to bring some lovely pistachio colored alternate refreshments.

    I will worship you. I promise.

  223. 223
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    As to the more serious side of the topic, I also agree that mainstream porn is horribly sexist and body-policing and degrading toward women. Just like all the rest of mainstream media. Duh. Hello, the patriarchy aspect of the kyriarchy?

    There are plenty of alternatives out there. Personally I’m more into text or graphic art than film media for my erotica. And if you like Greta Christina, you might also want to check out Suzie Bright. And Violet Blue. And I used to like Pat Califia before she transitioned.

  224. 224
    SallyStrange

    I don’t like Priscilla, Queen of the Desert either, so that’s another point off the gay column.

    However, I love Sex and the City and Too Wong Fu, Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar, so I guess I get those points back.

    Hey, but the latter was pretty much a total rip-off of the former.

    I don’t know what that says about your sexuality tho.

  225. 225
    A. R

    ooops! misttribution of post likely due to combination of biochemistry and wine. Apologies!

  226. 226
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >*snort* No wonder she ignores me, can’t fit me into a box so clearly I don’t really exist. <

    -Well, someone should inform her that many gay men don't like to be crammed into boxes…

  227. 227
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    >*snort* No wonder she ignores me, can’t fit me into a box so clearly I don’t really exist. <

    -Well, someone should inform her that many gay men don't like to be crammed into boxes…

    Win.

  228. 228
    Inaji

    However, I love Sex and the City

    Ugh. I loathe Sex and the City.

  229. 229
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I gotta ask, what did you think about Joan’s clothes in Johnny Guitar? She looked so right in jeans, a western shirt and scarf that it was a stone fucking shock to see her in a frilly prairie dress.

    Oh, fuck. . I can barely type because I’m laughing so hard. Johnny Guitar is, as you know, the ne plus ultra of camp pictures. Jeezis. .where to start?

    Joan was. . .all mixed up. Yeah, she looked great in the jeans and bandana thing. But mainly because her version of feminine “lady-hood” in middle age and older was all about piling on more makeup, which had an ironically and probably unintended effect of pronounced masculinity. Beguiling to watch. Also very funny.

    Her in that prairie dress? Criminy. . .I have the giggles. Same reaction I have when I watch her in a similar get up in this episode of The Lucy Show. Of course, she was drunk as hell, so it’s not really a fair fight.

    Joan, I love ya babe.

    PS – Did I ever tell you about how I came this close to sneaking into Bette Davis’ daughter’s fundie church service when I lived in rural Virginia?

  230. 230
    Travis

    I don’t like Priscilla, Queen of the Desert either, so that’s another point off the gay column.

    I am not gay so I guess not liking Priscilla won’t be a knock against me. I am more of a Rocky Horror Picture Show kinda guy.

    I do like Too Wong Fu, Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar however. Does that take any points off one of my columns?

  231. 231
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    ooops! misttribution of post likely due to combination of biochemistry and wine. Apologies!

    Its all good. Glad it was all a misunderstanding. =)

    -Well, someone should inform her that many gay men don’t like to be crammed into boxes…

    I don’t think anyone likes it, unless there is a box fetish I’m unaware of. That’s why the image of the whole Horde crashing into her house is so delightful. I’m sure there are a million things we could introduce her to in reality. Too bad she shuts herself off in her own little box. Such a small way to live. Hope her children get to go expand their minds.

  232. 232
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    -Oooooh, can I play?
    Wait, I’ve never seen Mommie Dearest (and boy I’ve heard from so many friends that I need to see it)

    Then you are immediately—but temporarily—stripped of your Gay Card. Report to my salon at once for remedial viewing of Mommie Dearest, Mildred Pierce, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, Death Becomes Her, and every movie ever made by John Waters.

    Upon completion see Caine, Fleur du Mal for your graduatory commemorative toaster (fashion colors subject to availability, void where prohibited by common decency).

  233. 233
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    @Sally, I’m at work. Definitely not naked. Or even in my sparklepants, sorry Josh. But I can change when I get home.

    Also, oops, sorry, I got my pronouns wrong. Pat Califia is a he, not a she. *blush*

  234. 234
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >I’d like an answer to that as well. Anal has gotten played up a lot because of worries about pregnancy and for a lot of teens, it isn’t considered to be actual sex, <

    -I have a really crass joke in mind about my ass, and all the action it's seen, butt I will spare you all the SOREdid details.
    However, I find the idea that anal sex isn't actual sex perplexing. By that logic, I'm still a virgin, since I've never been with a woman. I've indulged in anal sex quite a bit since I first started having sex (at 22; I'm 36). I figured that I'd had plenty of sex.

  235. 235
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Jeezis. .where to start?

    I know, I know. Gawd, I would *love* to snuggle up with you for a camp movie weekend fest. Johnny Guitar, oh man, that prairie dress is a killer. We didn’t even talk about Sterling Hayden being the manly man or Ben Cooper looking so damn pretty and acting like he was dying to get into Joan’s wardrobe and make up. :D

  236. 236
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >I don’t think anyone likes it, unless there is a box fetish I’m unaware of.<

    -Methinks you missed my attempt at the art of PUNning. Gay men…boxes…

  237. 237
    Aquaria

    Christian men are major porn consumers. There’s a constant thread about porn over at RR, always asking for prayers to help with the porn addictions.

    The interesting thing about RR-type porn confessions is that you don’t see a lot of them talking about the things they’re doing to have their porn fix. Most of these “porn addicts” are managing to hold down jobs and maintain social responsibilities (like, oh church). They aren’t stealing to get their porn fix, they’re not making the wife or kids seriously do without to fund their porn fix, they’re not doing dangerous things to get their fix, we’re not seeing many of them talking about abusing their spouses so that they can have their fix, they’re not becoming violent for the fix, and they’re not losing the boundary between fantasy and reality. Anyone who’s dealt with a real addict knows that addicts do all of those things–and more.

    Another thing: Very few of them talk about their fix like normal addicts do. Has anyone but me noticed that? With every addict I’ve ever known, they talk about their fix with downright reverence, even when they’re mad at it or hate what it’s doing to them. The reverence for the fix is there so much that it’s almost like another person in the conversation. The godbot “porn addicts” don’t do that.

    So the vast majority of them seem to be guys who are simply bored and hate themselves for filling their free time with porn, rather than kissing Jesus’ ass 24/7.

  238. 238
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Did I ever tell you about how I came this close to sneaking into Bette Davis’ daughter’s fundie church service when I lived in rural Virginia?

    Nope. Spill.

    Sunnydale75:

    However, I find the idea that anal sex isn’t actual sex perplexing.

    Unsurprisingly, the notion that oral sex and anal sex aren’t really sex is the result of religious upbringing and abstinence only crap. Kids from fundie families fuck around every bit as much as non-religious kids, but tell themselves it doesn’t count unless it’s penis in vagina sex, which is the only type of sex which counts when you’re looking at it from a fundie viewpoint.

  239. 239
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Report to my salon at once for remedial viewing of Mommie Dearest, Mildred Pierce, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, Death Becomes Her, and every movie ever made by John Waters.<

    -I don't tend to venture into salon's much, as I (it was me, honestly :) started the trend of shaving one's head. I started it back in high school, around 1991 or so.
    Wow, I'm not cultured at all, given that I don't know any of those other movies you mentioned.

  240. 240
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I know, I know. Gawd, I would *love* to snuggle up with you for a camp movie weekend fest.

    Honestly, I can’t imagine a weekend that would be more full of fun and shits and giggle than that. I keep telling you and Mr.. .if ever you’re in New England, you know whose house you’re dropping in to!

    Sterling Hayden in Max Factor lipstick. . .HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

    Best line of the movie-

    Vienna: You can stop. Spinning the wheel.

  241. 241
    Inaji

    Aquaria:

    So the vast majority of them seem to be guys who are simply bored and hate themselves for filling their free time with porn, rather than kissing Jesus’ ass 24/7.

    You’re absolutely right. They are not porn addicts, nor sex addicts of any kind. They use addict as a sort of cachet, something which distinguishes them from just being a bored guy who is interested in sex. That they get such a thrill from it is clear and they come across as getting a thrill in speaking about it at RR. It’s an acceptable way for them to chat with other men about watching porn.

  242. 242
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    OT, but where does PZ live? I ask because I just noticed the time in various posts, and it’s way ahead of the central time zone I live in. As I type this, it’s 10:55 pm.

  243. 243
    Inaji

    Sunnydale75:

    I don’t tend to venture into salon’s much

    Not that kind of salon, Dear.

    No John Waters?! Oh no, no, no, no, no. Report to your nearest DVD outlet, rent every fuckin’ John Waters movie there is and watch. Now. Then get every single one of his books and read. Now.

  244. 244
    Weedless Monkey

    Just_A_Lurker, eating box is pretty much similar to licking carpet. Give it a try if you like :D

  245. 245
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Nope. Spill.

    K. So I used to live in Amherst, Virginia, which is one hour away from Charlottesville. BD Hyman (Barbara Davis Hyman, Bette Davis’ daughter who got married to Jeremy Hyman when she was 16 and he was like 164) lives in C’ville. BD had a bit part in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane as the daughter of the next-door neighbor to Blanche and Jane Hudson. She’s the snotty girl who says “Well, mother, I think she should know.”

    BD came out with a tell-all smear book titled “My Mother’s Keeper” in the mold of Christina’s book about Joan. Except she published it before Bette was even dead. Bette called her out in the preface to her (Bette’s) last book, “This and That.” She addressed her simply as “Dear Hyman.” Ha!

    Anyway, BD turned into a raging fundagelical nut and she started to sell all manner of bullshit tracts, pamphlets and other nonsense through her Rapturied. When I lived there about 9 years ago, I so desperately wanted to go to one of the church services at her house on Sunday (yes, she held them there!) just so I could sit through the whole thing and then get up at the end, bellowing in a raspy smoker’s voice, “BD! God! Why don’t you. . get. .us. . .some ashtrays!”

    I had it all planned out with a couple of my friends, but we never got it together. Since I’ll be down there for Thanksgiving, perhaps I’ll revive the plan. . .

  246. 246
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Just_A_Lurker, eating box is pretty much similar to licking carpet. Give it a try if you like :D

    In all fairness, it’s much more like licking an apricot half that’s lying ON the carpet.

  247. 247
    Mattir

    I love you, Horde. And while baby care hormones do change some stuff, they haven’t changed my ideas about porn AT ALL, except insofar as I can now discuss just about anything without the remotest trace of embarassment.

  248. 248
    Inaji

    Josh:

    just so I could sit through the whole thing and then get up at the end, bellowing in a raspy smoker’s voice, “BD! God! Why don’t you. . get. .us. . .some ashtrays!”

    :falls over laughing: Oh, if you ever do that, you must have someone secretly videotaping.

  249. 249
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Whoops, text and link fuck up. BD Hyman is Rapturified, and she sells her bullshit here:

    http://www.bdhyman.com/

  250. 250
    Inaji

    Mattir:

    I love you, Horde. And while baby care hormones do change some stuff, they haven’t changed my ideas about porn AT ALL, except insofar as I can now discuss just about anything without the remotest trace of embarassment.

    Okay, so now that you’re here, how would you react if one of the spawnsters wanted to go into (non-exploitative) porn? (Once they were older, of course.)

  251. 251
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Whoops, text and link fuck up. BD Hyman is Rapturified, and she sells her bullshit here:

    You know, I’m pretty sure they have cosmetic surgery for restoring raptured Hymans…

  252. 252
    Inaji

    Josh:

    BD Hyman is Rapturified, and she sells her bullshit here:

    Oh man, she looks so 700 club.

    In the mid-1980s, B.D. Hyman received God’s solution to her dysfunctional relationship with her controlling mother.

    So god’s solution was to write a nasty book about mommy? Interestin’.

  253. 253
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Oh, y’all, it’s soooooo good. You simply must look up BD’s site and trawl through it. If the OED had an entry titled “Ironic Camp” there would be a picture of BD next to it. Fucking hell – could there be anything better than Bette Davis’ daughter hawking Rapture drama on a website from 1995?!?

    I mean, just look at her. She has Bette Davis eyes for real.

    “I’d kiss ya – but I just washed my hair in the blood of the lamb!”

  254. 254
    Mattir

    @Caine – I’d want them to make sure they were doing it for the right reasons (fun) and were safe.

  255. 255
    Inaji

    Josh:

    I mean, just look at her.

    :stifles scream: She looks scarier and creepier than mum did in What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?.

  256. 256
    Inaji

    Mattir:

    I’d want them to make sure they were doing it for the right reasons (fun) and were safe.

    I figured as much, but thanks for saying, in case any of the idjits come back.

  257. 257
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I may have linked this before, but it’s so awesome it deserves a bump.

    An animated re-telling of the classic Bette Davis and Tallulah Bankhead “bit on the snatch by a snake” joke.

  258. 258
    Tethys

    I never knew that the rapture consisted of Jebus riding a pale horse side-saddle. Why the hell is he side-saddle?

  259. 259
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I never knew that the rapture consisted of Jebus riding a pale horse side-saddle. Why the hell is he side-saddle?

    Well, he got nailed three times just a few cosmic days earlier…

  260. 260
    johnmoore

    … something that almost everyone does all the time

    You mean something almost everyone talks about doing all the time. Real life is amazingly sexless.

  261. 261
    Inaji

    johnmoore:

    Real life is amazingly sexless.

    Here we go again. Speak for yourself, please. While one person’s life might be amazingly sexless, that doesn’t apply to everyone else.

  262. 262
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    You mean something almost everyone talks about doing all the time. Real life is amazingly sexless.

    So it’s not just me… :/

    Here we go again. Speak for yourself, please. While one person’s life might be amazingly sexless, that doesn’t apply to everyone else.

    Woo, hope. :3

  263. 263
    SallyStrange

    Sorry I dropped out of the conversation for a bit, guys. Strangeboyfriend called on the phone and we got to talking…

    I love this thread to bits. What a great antidote to the assholishness of all the recent threads about feminism. I’d love to join in an evening of campy movies with Josh & Caine. Caine, if you come visit, I promise to do my best to recreate the beverage I was talking about. Smooches!

  264. 264
    Inaji

    Sally Strange:

    I’d love to join in an evening of campy movies with Josh & Caine.

    I’d adore that!

    Caine, if you come visit, I promise to do my best to recreate the beverage I was talking about. Smooches!

    Experiments make everything better, especially camp movie fun! ♥ ♥

  265. 265
    Inaji

    Sally Strange:

    Strangeboyfriend called on the phone and we got to talking…

    Uh huh. :Puts stern face on: And you got up to filthy, dirty hanky panky, didn’t you?! Where are those wire hangers?

  266. 266
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Where are those wire hangers?

    What’s. Wire. Hangers. Doing. In. This. Closet. When I told you No Wire Hangers EVER!!@@??

    I buy you beautiful dresses and you treat them like they were some dish rag. A two, three-hundred dollar dress on a wire hanger – Caine get out of that bed. Get out of that bed!

  267. 267
    Tethys

    What a great antidote to the assholishness

    Gahr, you can say that again. AB is such a tedious twit that I just started poking him to see what stupidity he would post next.

    Since they can’t learn, at least they could provide some entertainment value.

  268. 268
    SallyStrange

    *is completely innocent of all charges*

    *see the halo? it’s right there above my head!*

  269. 269
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    Consider if significant numbers of women were removing themselves from the workplace today, such that there was a noticeable demographic shift back toward men’s numerical majority in the workplace. (This is not a comment about you, reader who has decided to leave the workplace, because I’m not aware of any such demographic shift today. I’m talking about hypothetical trends.)

    This would categorically be a reduction in women’s power in society. Now, under perhaps a libertarian or Palin school of feminism, with a one-dimensional notion of personal agency, there is nothing objectionable in such a trend among women. Nobody is pointing guns at them; they are choosing freely, in the sense of negative freedom.

    So far so good, but it is definitionally a social issue and thus a topic of social critique. And I don’t think there’s anyone here who would say it would not be an issue of concern to them personally. We are all historically aware enough to recognize that the fight for women’s other freedoms has at all times been largely contingent on women’s contemporary economic power. A significant reduction in economic power can rationally be expected to lead to reductions in other freedoms, ultimately including even the negative freedoms.

    Such a trend can happen with personal agency wholly intact. Thus, it is not sufficient to hold up an example of women’s agency to demonstrate that some topic is not appropriate for a feminist’s attention or criticism. If any topic can ever be said to be inappropriate for a feminist’s criticism, there must be something else involved, in addition to a woman’s agency. (I would suggest that this something else must include actual power and positive liberties. In this thread I don’t intend to comment yet again on to what degree these are present in commercial porn; this comment is intentionally abstracted from that debate as much as possible.)

    [cswella:] Curious, does anyone else think that these “porn is bad because it exploits women” people are being anti-feminism? Feels like most of the statements are along the vein of overprotective behavior.

    [Azkyroth:] I do. I’ve been saying for quite a while that when this is made as a general statement about the inherent qualities of pornography (and therefore distinct from a critique of specific practices of specific studios and companies) it’s fundamentally premised on denying the agency (at least, the sexual agency) of women.

    No more so than a labor union organizer saying “unregulated capitalism is bad because it exploits workers” is being anti-worker, or overprotective, or denying the agency of workers. (Not an unheard claim, I can direct you to libertarian websites which say precisely this.)

    There is no rule that critics of capitalism should only be liberals who focus their efforts on Walmart and Goldman Sachs. Likewise there is no rule that critics of patriarchy should only be liberals who make focus on whatever studios and companies you find abhorrent (though, please do list those companies, for the sake of your fellow liberals, who are at least doing something).

    +++++
    I don’t see anyone here saying “if you’re in favor of porn, then you’re anti-feminist.” Those here who are generally critical of porn, evidentally, can tolerate difference. Indeed they explicitly recognize the differences and name the opposition as still feminists: “nevertheless, if I was forced to choose, I would rather have a feminist [porn] film where at least the actors actually had fun”.

    A couple (obviously not all) of those who are generally in favor of porn, evidentally, cannot tolerate difference and cannot engage their rhetorical opponents with a most basic charity.

  270. 270
    Aquaria

    I buy you beautiful dresses and you treat them like they were some dish rag. A two, three-hundred dollar dress on a wire hanger – Caine get out of that bed. Get out of that bed!

    All joking aside, the unsung legacy of Mommie Dearest is how it brought attention to the issue of child abuse like nothing else had.

    Christina Crawford deserves a medal for writing that book, just for that.

  271. 271
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    Josh, I initially read that as “An animated re-telling of the classic Beavis and Butthead”

  272. 272
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Caine get out of that bed. Get out of that bed!

    No! she screams, No!

    Mombot to Emotitron Jr: no more hanging wires!

    Sally:

    *see the halo? it’s right there above my head!*

    I know what you’re doing with that halo, young lady!

  273. 273
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    No more so than a labor union organizer saying “unregulated capitalism is bad because it exploits workers” is being anti-worker, or overprotective, or denying the agency of workers. (Not an unheard claim, I can direct you to libertarian websites which say precisely this.)

    Except that’s not analogous to the position to which I explicitly narrowed my criticism. It would be more like saying “working for an hourly wage is bad because selling your labor is inherently exploitative and a worker cannot meaningfully consent to it.”

  274. 274
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Josh, I initially read that as “An animated re-telling of the classic Beavis and Butthead”

    Oh lord – just when I thought I couldn’t laugh harder. Thank you!

    *Snorfle*

  275. 275
    SallyStrange

    A couple (obviously not all) of those who are generally in favor of porn, evidentally, cannot tolerate difference and cannot engage their rhetorical opponents with a most basic charity.

    Dude, name some fucking names.

  276. 276
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Aquaria:

    All joking aside, the unsung legacy of Mommie Dearest is how it brought attention to the issue of child abuse like nothing else had.

    To the extent that’s true, I’m right there with ya. Mommie Dearest has taken on a life of its own as a camp classic in the performative/drag/gay canon, for lots of reasons. But please don’t mistake my love for that as a disregard for child abuse; it isn’t.

  277. 277
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    And again, the position being critiqued is not “specific aspects of the pornography industry as it exists today are problematic” but that “there are no circumstances in which a woman’s choice to perform in pornographic material could be accepted as free or valid” – in other words, that, at least in terms of sex, women are incapable of meaningfully choosing.

    1) how is that position not anti-feminist?

    2) how are your counter-examples and analogies relevant to it?

    3) where do you get off whining about people being uncharitable when you can’t even bring yourself to characterize your opponents’ arguments accurately?

    4)

    I don’t see anyone here saying “if you’re in favor of porn, then you’re anti-feminist.” Those here who are generally critical of porn, evidentally, can tolerate difference. Indeed they explicitly recognize the differences and name the opposition as still feminists

    These accusations have, in fact, been made elsewhere, including by the subject of the discussion you are probably alluding to. We are not goldfish and the claim that goldfish have a memory span of only four seconds is false anyway.

  278. 278
    SallyStrange

    Everybody knows that the internet is for porn, anyway!

  279. 279
    Inaji

    ahs:

    I don’t see anyone here saying “if you’re in favor of porn, then you’re anti-feminist.”

    No one typed that specific sentence, however, that sentiment was expressed by more than one person, citing that all porn demeans women, therefor, porn is bad and if you’re pro-porn, then you are anti-feminist. The people saying this are sorely lacking in their knowledge about porn, specifically amateur porn which is not exploitative and is not demeaning to women or men.

  280. 280
    Aquaria

    But please don’t mistake my love for that as a disregard for child abuse; it isn’t.

    I don’t think you’re doing that at all. I just think, a lot of times, or because so much time has passed, that people forget that Mommie Dearest really jumpstarted awareness about child abuse and got people talking about it.

    I don’t think most people realize just how shocking the book was in the late 70s. People just didn’t talk about things like child abuse back then. Worse, child abuse was considered something that only the lowest classes did. Nobody talked about how widespread it was, or how class was no barrier.

    Christina Crawford changed that, and, for that, I think she deserves much more credit than she usually gets for laying bare her pain so that people would stop pretending that child abuse wasn’t a serious problem.

  281. 281
    Tethys

    however, that sentiment was expressed by more than one person, citing that all porn demeans women

    I’ve seen some great porn that was made by women that was not at all demeaning. Most everyone looked to be having a great time.

    Much mainstream porn is demeaning to women in that its all very one-sided and completely unrealistic. It doesn’t look like fun at all for the woman, despite all the moaning.

  282. 282
    jan

    Porn and politics?

    Skimmed through the thread, seems that nobody has mentioned
    CICCIOLINA yet?

  283. 283
    Inaji

    jan:

    Skimmed through the thread, seems that nobody has mentioned CICCIOLINA yet?

    Yes, she was mentioned. You might try reading the thread, it’s generally helpful, where as using all caps isn’t.

  284. 284
    F

    This thread makes me wish for Gay Secks with Brownian. Y’all turn me on like that. And What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? for fuxake! Awesome.

    I find that by the time I finish reading these things, I can’t respond to anything in particular. But reading works for me.

  285. 285
    Tethys

    Cicciolina is mentioned back at #204, and a few other times before that too.

  286. 286
    Inaji

    Tethys:

    I’ve seen some great porn that was made by women that was not at all demeaning. Most everyone looked to be having a great time.

    Yep, me too. That’s one of the reasons I pointed out to someone upthread that simply complaining about commercial porn and wholesale condeming it is not only unhelpful, but it does nothing to encourage porn which is fun, healthy, unexploitative and not demeaning to anyone.

  287. 287
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Yep, me too. That’s one of the reasons I pointed out to someone upthread that simply complaining about commercial porn and wholesale condeming it is not only unhelpful, but it does nothing to encourage porn which is fun, healthy, unexploitative and not demeaning to anyone.

    If anything, it discourages it – when all porn is condemned as misogynistic trash, only people comfortable with having their work called misogynistic trash will make porn.

  288. 288
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Aquaria:

    I don’t think most people realize just how shocking the book was in the late 70s. People just didn’t talk about things like child abuse back then. Worse, child abuse was considered something that only the lowest classes did. Nobody talked about how widespread it was, or how class was no barrier.

    Christina Crawford changed that, and, for that, I think she deserves much more credit than she usually gets for laying bare her pain so that people would stop pretending that child abuse wasn’t a serious problem.

    .

    Quite right. I remember the gasps of disbelief when the book and movie made a sensation in the late 70s and early 80s. Most people didn’t know whether to be shocked at the candor (and thus motivated to actually do something about the problem) or to affect sniffy “How dare the little ungrateful brat.”

    It’s hard to remember (or to know at all, if one wasn’t born then) how shocking and controversial it was for anyone, let alone the child of a Hollywood legend, to out their parent as a child abuser in those days. Heh, cripes, “those days.” My own childhood, which doesn’t seem that distant.

  289. 289
    Aquaria

    Victory roll hair and Dior New Look suits in the same picture? Fetch me a towel.

    I love you.

  290. 290
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Victory roll hair and Dior New Look suits in the same picture? Fetch me a towel.

    I love you.

    Yes! I was so hoping you’d see that, Aquaria, because I knew you alone would get it.

    You just made me very happy.

  291. 291
    Aquaria

    My own childhood, which doesn’t seem that distant.

    Pfft. I was in high school when it came out, and read it when I was in the hospital for oral surgery. That book definitely made the time fly.

  292. 292
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Well, he got nailed three times just a few cosmic days earlier… <

    -Or was that last Tuesday…

  293. 293
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Most people didn’t know whether to be shocked at the candor (and thus motivated to actually do something about the problem) or to affect sniffy “How dare the little ungrateful brat.”

    Most of the shock was due to one thing Aquaria mentioned – this highlighted someone who was rich and famous. Child abuse was talked about in the 70s, albeit not much, and as Aquaria said, it was more seen as something only the great unwashed did.

    When a case of a rich, well known person being abusive was brought out, that’s what scandalized people. After that, at least where the media was concerned, there were more explorations of child abuse in well to do situations and in upper middle class and middle class families.

    I still remember the insane fuss over Something About Amelia, and that was made in 1984. Stuff like that wasn’t supposed to happen in nice white families in the ‘burbs.

  294. 294
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >I love this thread to bits. What a great antidote to the assholishness of all the recent threads about feminism. <

    -Hear,Hear!
    I agree. This has been a most enjoyable highlight of my day.
    And they say atheists can't find the fun…

    Tony (still waiting to find out who the enigmatic "they" is)

  295. 295
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Oh lord – just when I thought I couldn’t laugh harder. Thank you!

    *Snorfle*<

    -What's a "snorfle"? Is that the sound SNORKS make when passing gas?

    Tony (god, I hope someone else remembers the Snorks)

  296. 296
    markjn

    I am friends with a bunch of pornstars/prostitutes/strippers, and I have to say that that lifestyle usually is indicative of certain personality traits that I don’t want in someone governing me.

    There are of course exceptions.

  297. 297
    Aquaria

    Yes! I was so hoping you’d see that, Aquaria, because I knew you alone would get it.

    I should notice any mention of Dior New Look. It’s my favorite fashion look, of all time. Second would be the return to dressiness in the late 70s. Most people think the 70s were platform shoes and skintight everything, but there was also a lot of good cuts, luxe fabrics, and exciting new designs–just like the New Look era. Claude Montana had a $1200 outfit in 1979 that I almost spent the down payment for my car on. It was Dior New Look with a 70s twist, a lovely structured jacket, the a-line dress, but the fluttery fabrics of the 70s for the dress. It was so fucking smashing, I was willing to walk everywhere for the rest of my life for it, but my mother took the money back and took me to get the car before I bought that outfit.

    I think I would have done it, if she hadn’t intervened.

  298. 298
    Sam

    Can’t believe all you guys are okay with porn and call Americans prudes when they want to reject it…

    Sheesh, I thought you had some morals and ethics?

  299. 299
    Hairhead

    When I ran films for Vancouver’s art-film house “Johnny Guitar” was a crowd favourite we brought back almost every year.

    Aside from all the camp, what I most liked about Johnny Guitar was that all the men were wimps and that the real actors in the film, the drivers of the action, the owners of the consequences, were WOMEN — in the 1950′s! Mercedes McCambridge (her best role) and Joan Crawford.

    A delightfully entertaining and subversive film.

  300. 300
    Inaji

    markjn:

    I am friends with a bunch of pornstars/prostitutes/strippers, and I have to say that that lifestyle usually is indicative of certain personality traits that I don’t want in someone governing me.

    Uh huh. I remember you from this thread, where you amply displayed what a sexist asspimple you are.

  301. 301
    Sam

    And on top of that, I’m surprised PZ is allowed to teach at a public university when he thinks it’s okay for young women to be gang-banged for money and have a basketball team spooge on their faces.

    Does the university agree with that?

  302. 302
    Tethys

    Whatever could markjn mean by “certain personality traits”?

    Only “certain types” of women enjoy sex?

    Enjoying sex makes you a “certain type” of female?

    No woman who enjoys sex is allowed to govern him?

  303. 303
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Aquaria:

    I should notice any mention of Dior New Look. It’s my favorite fashion look, of all time. Second would be the return to dressiness in the late 70s.

    If it won’t offend my Other and Preceding Wives (or you), I should like to invite you to the Sisterhood of SpokesGay Fake Wives. Do honor me.

    I pantingly love Dior New Look fashion. But then, like anyone with taste, I adore 1940s through 50s high fashion for women both in clothes and hair. It requires a ridiculous personal regime (hair-setting at night and all that) and way too much money/attention on keeping those skirts just so. But damn. . . I can’t help it.

  304. 304
    Inaji

    Sam:

    Can’t believe all you guys are okay with porn and call Americans prudes when they want to reject it…

    I didn’t call anyone a prude. As a matter of fact, it’s been said many times, by many people, that if you don’t like porn, don’t watch it. Is there someone following you around, threatening to break your arm if you don’t?

    Sheesh, I thought you had some morals and ethics?

    What, exactly, is immoral or unethical about healthy, happy, enthusiastic sex? You seem to have a reading comprehension problem, as most of the people in this thread are supportive of non-exploitative, non-demeaning porn.

  305. 305
    Inaji

    Sam:

    And on top of that, I’m surprised PZ is allowed to teach at a public university when he thinks it’s okay for young women to be gang-banged for money and have a basketball team spooge on their faces.

    Where did PZ say that, Cupcake? All you’ve done is reveal what you’d like to see in porn. Have anything remotely relevant to say or are you just interested in being a boring troll?

  306. 306
    Tethys

    Oy vey. The sexist prude menz club decides to weigh in on not doing porn by bringing up totally unrelated topics.

  307. 307
    Inaji

    Tethys:

    Whatever could markjn mean by “certain personality traits”?

    Tethys, hit the link in #302 and ctrl+f for markjn. You’ll find out all about what he means. It ain’t pretty.

  308. 308
    Sam

    @Caine

    SWEET! When your daughters turn 18, send’em my way. Me and a bunch of guys can’t wait to spooge in their eyes and stick up their ass.

    Don’t complain to me when they need to go to the doctor ’cause their herpes is acting up. (And yes, talk to any porn star. EVERYONE in porn has herpes, chlamydia, ect…)

  309. 309
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And on top of that, I’m surprised PZ is allowed to teach at a public university when he thinks it’s okay for young women to be gang-banged for money and have a basketball team spooge on their faces.

    What the hell is wrong with you?

    Who let the trash in?

  310. 310
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Me and a bunch of guys can’t wait to spooge in their eyes and stick up their ass.

    You disgusting piece of shit. Get your shit on tonight because you’ll be banned in the morning. Uck.

    Again – what the fuck is wrong with you?

  311. 311
    Sam

    Ohhhhh… You guys want the nice porn. Gothca!

  312. 312
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Honestly. Can’t you hoggle in private?

  313. 313
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Nobody talked about how widespread it was, or how class was no barrier. <

    -And now we have the media reporting on story after story regarding child abuse…as they should. I think it can be shocking to some people who might think back to 25, 30, 40 years ago and think this stuff wasn't going on back then. I've talked to some people that feel that the world is going to shit, or that believe the old trope about America's declining values. It seems that some people feel the problems we're facing today grew whole-cloth out of some sort of paradigm shift in the last few decades and prior to that, everything was hunky dory.
    Yeah, but no.
    I don't have any cold, hard facts, but I suspect child abuse can be found far too often throughout human history. Yes, even in the wonderful Leave it to Beaver, Norman Rockwell era.
    If you would have asked me 10 years ago my opinion on corporal punishment, I'd likely have said "no, I don't have an issue with a parent doling out spankings or whippings, up to a point". But now that I'm older, I don't believe that violence is an effective long term solution to any problem. Looking at the video of the TX judge wailing away on his daughter while MOMMY DEAREST looks on produces instant revulsion in me. He lost his temper. Wow, what an excuse. What was mom's excuse? And what did the beating accomplish? Did the young girl "learn her lesson"? I look at stuff like that and think that it IS child abuse. Maybe not abuse in the "not feed/clothe/shelter" kind of way, but I'm not really interested in a game of "your abuse is worse than mine". Once again, I get the feeling that biblical commandments are largely to blame.

    Tony (and to think that some people don't stop at beating their child; no, some morally bankrupt believers beat their children to death; and atheists are the ones with no moral compass?!; the state of FL won't let me adopt a child solely on the basis of who I sleep with, but it's ok for parents to beat their child to death b/c the bible told 'em to? My biological clock started ticking in my mid 20s. I'd love to have a husband and kids. GAH! Sorry about the tangent)

  314. 314
    Sam

    Honestly, Josh, did I upset you.

    (Methinks someone has daughters sleeping peacefully…)

  315. 315
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Personally, I prefer written porn, or a good sex scene within a story.
    The great problems with the mainstream comercial industry have already be mentioned:
    Unrealistic, mostly made by men for men, dangerous as a business and too much focussed on “perfect bodies”.
    It perpetuates toxic ideas about masculinity, femininity and sex and it’s no wonder that neither boys nor girls who get their sex-ed from mainstream porn ever question the assumption that sex is about his penis in her vagina and that should make her extremely happy.
    I’m wondering how many girls and women are unhappy and think that there’s something wrong with them since that doesn’t get them off.
    But those things are not inherent characteristics of porn.

    Porn made by Greta Christina would most likely be a whole different thing to watch, it might give you some good ideas. It would probably still not be my cup of tea, I’ve come to suspect that I’m just not much into visual stuff, but it would surely avoid the problems that there are with the usual comercial porn

  316. 316
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Honestly, Josh, did I upset you.

    Not nearly so much as you bored me.

  317. 317
    Inaji

    Hairhead:

    Mercedes McCambridge (her best role)

    Mercedes McCambridge received an Oscar for All the King’s Men in 1949. She also said of Joan Crawford: “a mean, tipsy, powerful, rotten-egg lady.” Heh.

  318. 318
    Inaji

    Sam:

    (Methinks someone has daughters sleeping peacefully…)

    It’s definite, you’re an idiot.

  319. 319
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    She also said of Joan Crawford: “a mean, tipsy, powerful, rotten-egg lady.” Heh.

    LOLOLOL!

    She also said, “Your mother sucks cock in hell.” And, “what an excellent day for an exorcism. . .don’t you agree?”

  320. 320
    Weedless Monkey

    Sam

    Honestly, Josh, did I upset you.

    Even if that were true, do you really think that would make what yous aid true?

  321. 321
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    I see that Sam is full of assumptions. If only he know what he was talking about before typing a thing.

    But sadly, the poor thing would have nothing to say, bless his heart.

  322. 322
    Sam

    I don’t understand Josh. You call me disgusting and vile. Why? I thought you liked porn. That’s what 90% of porn is. Dicks in asses and spooge on faces.

    Why are you judging me? As long as your 18 year-old sweethearts are consenting adults, right.

    Roll camera!

  323. 323
    Tethys

    Tethys, hit the link in #302 and ctrl+f for markjn. You’ll find out all about what he means. It ain’t pretty.

    Thanks, but I see no need to ruin my happy with a dose of filth.

    I can guess what someone who claims to have pornstars/strippers/prostitutes as friends (despite those ominous traits) thinks of women in general.

    So nice of him to lump them into one category and be open about his fear of being controlled by them.

  324. 324
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >I am friends with a bunch of pornstars/prostitutes/strippers, and I have to say that that lifestyle usually is indicative of certain personality traits that I don’t want in someone governing me.

    There are of course exceptions. <

    -Say what?
    Are these "friends" aware of your opinion of them?
    Just what kinds of personality traits do they have that you find so distasteful that you wouldn't elect them to public office?
    I find traits in existing public officials distasteful and people exhibiting them *shouldn't* be in public office.
    I'm thinking of anyone who who abuses children (hello Penn State child abuse scandal), as well as aids and abets anyone involved in that.
    I'm thinking of anyone who would seek to remove basic constitutional rights from *any* citizen of this country.
    I'm thinking of anyone who is strongly pro-life, yet supportive of the death penalty.
    I'm thinking of anyone who wants "days of prayer" so that a drought will end.
    I'm thinking of anyone who feels a woman has the right to choose, but abortion should be illegal. I'm thinking of anyone who decides to listen to the invisible man in the sky when deciding foreign policy (or any policy for that matter).
    I'm thinking of anyone who supports the Catholic Church.

    I'm really curious to see what personality types your "friends" exhibit that you don't like in public officials.

    Tony

  325. 325
    Inaji

    @Caine

    SWEET! When your daughters turn 18, send’em my way. Me and a bunch of guys can’t wait to spooge in their eyes and stick up their ass.

    I don’t have kids, fuckwit. Now go off and do your hoggling in private.

  326. 326
    Sam

    You guys are a joke. You say America at large is full of a bunch of prudes. We need to lighten up when it comes to porn. Be more like Europe.

    Then I point out what most porn is, and I’M THE ASSHOLE?!

    Hyp-ohhh-crites…..

  327. 327
    Tethys

    Honestly, Josh, did I upset you.

    (Methinks someone has daughters sleeping peacefully…)

    Methinks someone has some deep psychological issues in addition to being a complete waste of protoplasm.

  328. 328
    Sam

    @Caine

    No correction. You CLEARLY don’t have kids.

  329. 329
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Sam – I can’t bring myself to fully let loose on you because you seem to be (honestly, I’m not joking) addled.

  330. 330
    Outrage Zombie

    I could understand the whole aversion to porn if it were because your average straight porn film tends to be degrading towards it’s female actors and enforces society’s unfairly-limiting cultural roles for both men and women. Or if it were because the porn industry is pretty uncaring towards it’s own actors, has consistently dragged its heels in pushing for condoms and safer-sex practices on film, and has historically done a crap job of keeping records on which actors have which life-threatening STIs.

    But no. Working as a porn actor is bad, and you are bad for doing it — because sex is icky</i and evil, and you’re doing it for a living! As in being paid! For having a lot of sex! And a lot of that sex is light years away from the Jeebus-approved missionary position!! [cue meltdown]

  331. 331
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Can’t believe all you guys are okay with porn and call Americans prudes when they want to reject it…

    Sheesh, I thought you had some morals and ethics? <

    -I hope there's some kind of snarky subtext in this that I'm missing, but it doesn't look like that's the case.

    I'm an American. I'm ok with pornography (though not the exploitative kind). I'm NOT ok with anyone telling others they can't enjoy porn, or trying to introduce legislation to prevent people from enjoying porn.

    Tony

  332. 332
    Inaji

    Tethys:

    I can guess what someone who claims to have pornstars/strippers/prostitutes as friends (despite those ominous traits) thinks of women in general.

    markjn lives in Las Vegas and his girlfriend is a stripper, so he’s an expert, you see, especially on just how manipulative those nasty bitches happen to be. It’s ever so tough to be a manz.

  333. 333
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Methinks the next person who writes “methinks” is going to get a hammer in the head. Dear lord, deliver me from that hackneyed cliche.

  334. 334
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Then I point out what most porn is, and I’M THE ASSHOLE?!

    Liar. You made baseless assertions and acted like an asshole.

  335. 335
    Sam

    Yeah, everybody’s cool w/ porn until it’s THEIR baby-daughter on the couch getting gang-banged.

    You guys… You crack me up.

  336. 336
    Inaji

    Sam:

    @Caine

    No correction. You CLEARLY don’t have kids.

    Right. That’s why you brought up my daughters. Can you sharpen up, you dull stump of a crayon? You’re seriously stupid, even for a hoggler.

  337. 337
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    markjn lives in Las Vegas and his girlfriend is a stripper, so he’s an expert, you see,

    Oh. Is he that fuckwad? The one who talked about how he knew what it was like to be objectified since women slipped money into his G-string, and all the girls he hung out with were totally cool getting their tits rubbed up on?

  338. 338
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Yeah, everybody’s cool w/ porn until it’s THEIR baby-daughter on the couch getting gang-banged.

    1. Nobody here has a “baby-daughter.”

    2. Keep your ghetto wanking to yourself and please hoggle only in private.

    Thank you.

  339. 339
    Inaji

    Sam:

    Yeah, everybody’s cool w/ porn until it’s THEIR baby-daughter on the couch getting gang-banged.

    Keep showin’ the stupid, dull crayon. People did discuss their kids being in porn in this very thread, lackwit. Not too good at reading, it seems.

    Despite your personal love of gang bangs, that’s not what all porn is about.

  340. 340
    Sam

    @Outrage Zombie

    SWEET! Send your daughters my way!

    Now I pay $500 to lick my balls and I’ll give’em an extra twenty bucks to spooge in their hair. Deal?

    DEAL!

  341. 341
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Josh:
    >Sam – I can’t bring myself to fully let loose on you because you seem to be (honestly, I’m not joking) addled.<

    -I was going to add a few more comments after some of the truly abominable comments he made, but decided against it.
    If he wants to assume none of us are Americans, while generalizing the entire porn industry (including gay and lesbian porn, as well as amateur porn) let him. I do wonder what color the sky is in his world.

    Tony

  342. 342
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Oh. Is he that fuckwad?

    Yep. I linked the first thread he showed up in to enlighten us all on how it really is @ #302.

  343. 343
    Tethys

    On the plus side, this thread made it to over 300 comments before a hoggler showed up to piss on the rug.

  344. 344
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Can we go back to talking about fun porn, revoking gay cards, toaster ovens, and drinking wine while naked?

    Tony

  345. 345
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Now I pay $500 to lick my balls and I’ll give’em an extra twenty bucks to spooge in their hair. Deal?

    If you’re dumb enough to pay yourself $500 out of your own paycheck to lick your own balls then, yeah, deal.

  346. 346
    Sam

    Ohhhh, did I point out what hypocrites you guys are? My bad. I’ll leave you alone now.

    Keeping up the good work. You guys are way more evolved than the rest of America.

    Suckers…

  347. 347
    Weedless Monkey

    Sam, if that’s what happens between you and my hypothetical children while they are in their right minds and give their consent, have fun. It would be their decision, after all. I’d just have hoped to have taught them to be wary of predators.

  348. 348
    Inaji

    Josh:

    . Keep your ghetto wanking to yourself and please hoggle only in private.

    I wish. I killfiled the little repetitive hoggler, as apparently it doesn’t grok “oh, the shock value shtick didn’t work”.

  349. 349
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ewwww, Caine. I don’t know whether to bless you or curse you for having such sharp memory. But, yeah, that’s the doucheweasel I was thinking of. “Good” call.

  350. 350
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I’m not sure which is stupider – the idea that I should find the idea of my daughter growing up to enjoy adventurous sex upsetting, or the idea that if a woman enjoys adventurous sex, she MUST be willing to have it with absolutely anyone who asks.

    Either way, this latest troll is exceptionally boring. >.>

  351. 351
    paraedolia

    You know that Kelly O’Connor from the Rational Response Squad does (or did) porn right? (Under the name Kasey Grant in case you want to know.)

  352. 352
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Yeah, everybody’s cool w/ porn until it’s THEIR baby-daughter on the couch getting gang-banged.

    Sam, take a few minutes and follow the link that starts this thread. It is about why a blogger who is a sex positive lesbian atheist. She explains why she will not be in any more porn. Let’s just say that the porn she was part of was not of the hetero male variety and all of the female stereotypes that it implies.

    And the reason why is because of people like you. You will judge her for being a part of this instead of engaging with her ideas. PZ started this thread in order to direct traffic her way. It also fits into all of the debating of how women are treated online at this blog in recent weeks.

    And this thread has become a place for people to banter.

    And rather than trying to understand what is going on, you start tossing out insults at people, insults that did not land because they were so off target.

    So, yeah, you are an asshole.

  353. 353
    Inaji

    Sunnydale75:

    Can we go back to talking about fun porn, revoking gay cards, toaster ovens, and drinking wine while naked?

    Sure. Oh, when Josh mentioned seeing me about a toaster, we aren’t talking toaster ovens here. Years ago, I bought a bunch of vintage toasters and custom painted them and converted the toasting slots so they could be used as vases. They proved to be wildly popular and I ended up with more orders than toasters! I’d still do them if I could get my hands on cheap vintage toasters, but they are hard to come by now.

  354. 354
    Travis

    Boring troll is boring. I love seeing someone get ripped into for their idiocy as much as the next person, but I like it when they actually believe what they are saying and simply do not realize how stupid it is. Our friend Sam appears to mainly have the goal of stirring shit up. I cannot take any pleasure in this.

  355. 355
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Caine, I cannot find a markjn on that thread.

  356. 356
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Caine:
    -Wow. I thought you were kidding at first, but that’s rather cool. How do you convert a toasting slot (and why does that sound like some sort of euphemism)?

    Tony

  357. 357
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Ewwww, Caine. I don’t know whether to bless you or curse you for having such sharp memory. But, yeah, that’s the doucheweasel I was thinking of.

    Yes, markjn outlined everything in his opening post. It got worse from there.

    He’s shown up in various threads here lately. I’ve been waiting for him to show his asspimple goodness, and he didn’t disappoint.

  358. 358
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Sorry, about that. I turned off the match case and found it. One of those who hates the “victim card”. In an other thread, he wanted victims of rape to e-mail him.

    Bleagh…

  359. 359
    Aquaria

    If it won’t offend my Other and Preceding Wives (or you), I should like to invite you to the Sisterhood of SpokesGay Fake Wives. Do honor me.

    You’re amazingly persistent about this. ;)

    I pantingly love Dior New Look fashion. But then, like anyone with taste, I adore 1940s through 50s high fashion for women both in clothes and hair. It requires a ridiculous personal regime (hair-setting at night and all that)

    Maybe back then it could be time-consuming,, but blow dryers and hot rollers can get most of the looks they had in a fraction of the time.

    Truth be known, the victory roll doesn’t even need that much work; it’s super easy to do. Takes all of two minutes. Really. The secret was always using small foam-type sponges inside the curls. That was a relatively recent invention in the 40s, and you can bet women saw a use for it, right away.

    and way too much money/attention on keeping those skirts just so.

    Nah. Dry cleaning isn’t that expensive anymore, and these modern irons can press out the wrinkles. If you do those things, and if the dress is cut and sewn properly with the right fabrics, the folds will fall correctly on their own. Folds in a skirt are a sort of widely-sewn pleat (same principle, just a more basic technique). They’re created with expert sewing, and Christian Dior and his staff were master tailors and seamstress.

    Once he’d sewn in the type and size of folds he wanted the skirt to have, they’d fall like Monsieur Dior meant them to, every time, unless they skirt got wrinkled or wadded up. Even then, if you iron them properly, the folds just about pop out on their own. The only thing that will change that is if the stitching goes at the waist.

  360. 360
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Caine, I cannot find a markjn on that thread.

    He capitalized his name then – here’s the link.

  361. 361
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Thank you Caine.

  362. 362
    Inaji

    Sunnydale75:

    -Wow. I thought you were kidding at first, but that’s rather cool. How do you convert a toasting slot (and why does that sound like some sort of euphemism)?

    I just used plexiglass, cut to fit down into the slots and sealed so they would hold water. 1930s to 1940s toasters were the best, the shapes were fabulous and the designs on them really lent themselves to two-tone paint jobs.

  363. 363
    markjn

    smh. I have done porn, prostitution, and stripping. Most of my colleagues are untrustworthy, violent, often actively work against their self interest, poorly educated, and more. Most have had very screwed up pasts. It’s just my experience. I don’t have any studies or anything to back up what I say, just my experience in this scene for like 3 years. They are excellent people to party with, super fun, and good friends, but as with anyone you have to guard yourself. Would it help if I told you I have friends that regularly drug guys to steal their money and anything of value? I have stories for days.

    I’m just saying that people with serious issues are over represented in the scene, not that they are all like that. I don’t think there is anything inherently bad about the scene, thus my participation. I’ve met some really solid people. So just like I would question whether I could trust an ex-con or priest or drug dealer to represent me, I’d question a pornstar. I’m not saying I would never vote for one, just that it would be less likely I would trust them.

    And of course most politicians have the issues I mentioned already anyway. My friends know exactly what I think of them, people seem to appreciate that.

  364. 364
    Aquaria

    Years ago, I bought a bunch of vintage toasters and custom painted them and converted the toasting slots so they could be used as vases. They proved to be wildly popular and I ended up with more orders than toasters! I’d still do them if I could get my hands on cheap vintage toasters, but they are hard to come by now.

    I would sooooo love to have one of those.

    I’m nuts about everything 50s style. Even though I hate the apple pie perfect nuclear family delusion going on then, there were some amazing developments in art and decor happening simultaneously. This is one of the casual but great designs of the era: Franciscan Starburst.

    Adorable!

  365. 365
    markjn

    Yeah that post is old. I like to think I have learned since then, but whatever.

  366. 366
    Tethys

    I have a large collection of dresses from the 40′s to the 70′s.

    My favorite is a Marilyn Monroe type red halter dress with a box-pleated circle skirt.
    It’s got enormous buttons up the front and a matching crop jacket.

  367. 367
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Aquaria – I’m just so in love with you. A woman who can talk about shortcuts to Victory rolls (yes, I know about foam ‘rats’, but to learn that you do too. . .) and how skirts fall after ironing. . sigh.

    Hmm. The whole being ‘homosexual’ thing is so confusing:)

    Off to bed with me. See y’all around soon.

    xxoo

  368. 368
    Tethys

    Goodnight sweet Josh! May you dream of Dior.

  369. 369
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Oh, I can’t go quite yet:

    This is one of the casual but great designs of the era: Franciscan Starburst.

    That’s it! That’s the dish/decor pattern my friend/neighbor B collects. She has a service for eight in that pattern, and was lucky enough to find that the light fixtures upstairs in the house she bought across the street from me had the same pattern. And the owner was going to replace them!

    Wow. Very cool to know what that is.

  370. 370
    Inaji

    Aquaria:

    I would sooooo love to have one of those.

    I’d love to do them again, but people at thrift stores long ago figured out they could charge a lot more for them, and a lot of people stopped giving them to thrift stores, having figured out they could get a pretty penny for them. I’m sorry I didn’t buy more of them back when you could pick them up for two to five bucks a piece. I only charged $50.00 for them, which isn’t workable when I have to spend more than that on a good toaster these days.

  371. 371
    Inaji

    Aquaria:

    This is one of the casual but great designs of the era: Franciscan Starburst.

    My grandmother had a full set with that pattern. It was the every day dinnerware.

  372. 372
    Infinite123Lifer

    Once again I may not be answering the right question or basking in some ignorance as I have not read all the comments here so do not know if someone has mentioned it or not but my aversion to the porn industry

    (not porn itself…I do not if the distinction has been made between the 2)

    is/are:

    1. How many actual sex crimes are commited? i.e. forced sex, underage sex, drug induced spur of the moment mistakes people might not otherwise never do? Addiction is classically part of the porn scene.

    2. Instead about being about the individuals and the sex it is about jobs and making a living or making ends meet.

    3. Too much sex can be an unhealthy addiction. Look at LLCool J and his struggles with porn addiction.

    4. What % of women who do porn do it because they “feel” there is no other choice, or it is made easy for them to do by money and public awareness or peer pressure?

    5. Does abuse run rampant in the porn industry?

    6. Does relationship abuse occur when 2 parties are not consensual or it is hidden?

    7. There are many dark things about the porn industry and how it is conducted IMO. That is not to say free open sex is wrong. But how many lioness’s “tag” the whole pride? Sex is for reproduction…weve just become selfish about it….and maybe it is not a bad selfishness except when it starts to interfere with “What A Person REALLY Wants For Themselves”. And perhaps that realization can be spawned by doing porn. I really do not know.

    My point is that porn; while in the past few years perhaps the stereotype of the drug addicted abused girl trapped into the porn world is fading it is not gone out of all dark corners…the porn industry still holds much power over its employees. And this is a physcial intimate power.

    Perhaps working for a big company is now just like having a normal job??? Maybe it is not? I have not done the research.

    But just because someone is in porn or an atheist IMO does not change the fact of what great accomplishments they might be capable of. Every individual is different; hence the term individual. Every story is different.

    But damn PZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just sent some friends here and they come into …..

    “Im not going to do any porn either”

    and it got worse from there :) or it got juicier anywho
    I understand what a good question it is. And your right, this is a weird cultural culmination of decades upon the subject of porn.

    While hardcore religious folk have an easy answer…”it jus aint right” or something to that effect… My answer would have to be more about the long term emotional effects of the porn industry on humans…especially with the internet.

    What percentage of pedophiles support and take advantage of this industry which resorts in crimes?(most important)

    Why dont we just open up the Greek baths?

    Why havent all humans engaged in sexual pleasure so others can watch for the past million years?

    Did cave men sit around and watch Ulg and Helga go at it doggystyle in the corner for hours? Not to say that’s a question to debate either side…I am just asking a question is all

    Is there nothing to be said about mating for Life?

    As humans are we better off savagely expressing our sexual desires for pleasure and pleasure alone?

    Sexuality is rooted in the process of survival. If we did not want to have sex we would not and nobody would be here. As our minds have grown to understand that do we then abuse a natural instinct to the point of Life=pleasure………..or pain……………orwhatever your fancy?

    For me, Life is about living. Sex is a part of it. I believe nature intended me to “scout the field” and “woo a mate”. All sexual needs, wants or selfish pleasures are then taken care of.

    But I am just me and no one has lived my Life. As a human, as a human who wishes to advance my understanding…desire and pleasure have their place, with ones mate or mates.

    I don’t need to screw 5000 woman or watch 5000 women get screwed. I need one woman. Whom I make Love to 5000 times.

    (i hate this topic, I feel strongly that there is something wrong about porn, but i cannot either place it or justify it.)

  373. 373
    Tethys

    Sex is for reproduction

    I’m not going to be having any more children, but I’m certainly going to continue having sex.

  374. 374
    Aquaria

    I have a large collection of dresses from the 40′s to the 70′s.

    I picked up a dress that would have cost at least several hundred dollars to have made by hand in the 50s for $250. It was a lot of money for vintage back then, but it was worth every penny. It was this dress (not that stunning coat, unfortunately), in black:

    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_C.I.53.40.9a-d.jpg

    The velvet bodice on my dress was so soft that it felt like a cloud.

    I loved that dress, but I wasn’t going to have space for all my clothes in the military. If I’d know it was a museum piece, I would never have sold it. But unfortunately, I didn’t have much choice about selling. Some of my 80s clothes went for a song. Whoever got my Valentino two piece–I hate you. I had to put up with my mother every day for two months to get that damned outfit.

  375. 375
    jose

    @Caine, it’s clearly not only me. From PZ’s post, he’s talking about porn when he says:

    “We have a rather puritanical attitude towards sex, and that means that we punish people for doing something that almost everyone does all the time. While I’m no more going to flaunt my sexual behavior publicly than I’m going to take up gymnastics as a hobby …, I can see where some people might enjoy it”

    He didn’t say “we have an attitude towards porn”. He equated porn and sex.

    Comment 18: “Western society treats sex as being dirty. If you’re willing to let yourself be filmed doing something that should be done in private, society thinks less of you because to them you have no shame.”

    This argument is based on the idea that porn is simply public sex.

    Comment 24: “I had never really thought about it before. Having consensual sex, for the most part, is a completely healthy human activity.* Yet, if some goes out and looks for a public record of your fucking, you are considered the deviant.”

    Same as 18.

    Comment 43: “I find it alarming that our culture effectively creates two different sets of people- those who enjoy sex and their bodies and those who are responsible and upstanding.”

    The thread is about porn, but he talks about “enjoying sex and their bodies”. He doesn’t think it’s off topic because he identifies liking porn with enjoying sex.

    (looking to newer posts now…)

    Comment 332: “But no. Working as a porn actor is bad, and you are bad for doing it — because sex is icky</i and evil, and you’re doing it for a living! As in being paid! For having a lot of sex!"

    This one doesn’t need further explanation, does it?

    et cetera.

    About my attitude, I think the attitude that make people lose credibility is that of people who actually think that. I explicitly said working in the porn industry should not make you lose credibility on other issues.

    About dancing as an analogy, I think it’s a bit disingenuous, if anything a dancing DVD would be more similar to a theatrical play with a sex scene in it, which is something completely different. Let’s not forget what the point or porn is, mkay?

  376. 376
    Inaji

    Infinite123:

    Is there nothing to be said about mating for Life?

    What about it? It works for some people, doesn’t work for others. What does that have to do with happy, healthy, enthusiastic porn? I’m married, over 30 years. I enjoy porn now and then too. So what?

    As humans are we better off savagely expressing our sexual desires for pleasure and pleasure alone?

    Savage? Enjoying sex makes it savage. I don’t think so. Nothing wrong with passionately enjoying sex though, nothing at all.

    sex is for reproduction

    Maybe for you, Cupcake, but not for me. I’m childfree and have had a lifetime of wonderful, passionate, happy sweaty sex and not one single time had jack shit to do with breeding. Just in case you haven’t poked your head out of your ass lately, there are a whole lot of people on the planet. People having fun fucking with no intent to breed isn’t going to see the population of humans disappear in any hurry.

  377. 377
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Sex is for reproduction…weve just become selfish about it….

    Muah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
    Tells more about you than it tells about sex.
    Really, you started out as if you had some serious concerns about the porn industry (shared by most people here), cared about the men and women involved in it, entusiastic consent and all that jazz.
    And then you lose it and your comment becomes worse from that.

    What percentage of pedophiles support and take advantage of this industry which resorts in crimes?(most important)

    Does not compute.
    Seriously, where’s the connection and the argument? Where do pedophiles (those under the more strict definition of being into prepubescent and pubescent children. I’m not talking about underage sex which is a different problem) take advantage of the main-stream porn industry?

    Why dont we just open up the Greek baths?

    That’s a good question. Why? Oh, wait, that’s the wrong question, why don’t we open up more of them since they already seem to exist for the pleasures of consenting adults

    Why havent all humans engaged in sexual pleasure so others can watch for the past million years?

    Well, go ahead, answer your own question.
    I surely don’t need to mention things like prudery, anti-sex laws, the fact that many people consider it to be a private thing, and so on.
    But here’s a better one:
    Why shouldn’t people who like having sex in front of others do so in front of people who like watching them?

  378. 378
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >>Why havent all humans engaged in sexual pleasure so others can watch for the past million years?<<

    -The burden is on you, since you're making this claim. Can you please cite your sources for this information? I take it you've done due diligence by researching at length, the sexual habits of humans throughout recorded history.

    Tony

  379. 379
    Aquaria

    2. Instead about being about the individuals and the sex it is about jobs and making a living or making ends meet.

    When Marilyn Chambers was asked why she did porn, she replied, as if the person who asked her the question was a fucking moron, “Because I like sex.” This was when she was near the end of her career, and had made so much money from porn that it was scary.

    3. Too much sex can be an unhealthy addiction. Look at LLCool J and his struggles with porn addiction.

    Too much anything can be unhealthy. Are you going to make people stop eating chocolate, just because a lot of people get addicted to it?

    7. There are many dark things about the porn industry and how it is conducted IMO. That is not to say free open sex is wrong. But how many lioness’s “tag” the whole pride? Sex is for reproduction

    Maybe you’re so bad at sex that nobody wants to fuck you unless they have to, but the rest of us have kinda sorta figured out that sex is also fun.

    Did you know that most of our primitive ancestors weren’t remotely aware that sex caused reproduction? One theory out there posits that patriarchy might have been born when men realized they had a role in reproduction! Have you read any Margaret Mead–at all?

    wve just become selfish about it….and maybe it is not a bad selfishness except when it starts to interfere with “What A Person REALLY Wants For Themselves”. And perhaps that realization can be spawned by doing porn. I really do not know.

    If you don’t know (not a surprise at this point), then why are you shitting these bricks of stupid about it?

    My point is that porn; while in the past few years perhaps the stereotype of the drug addicted abused girl trapped into the porn world is fading it is not gone out of all dark corners…the porn industry still holds much power over its employees. And this is a physcial intimate power.

    So you’re judgmental, stupid and paranoid. Got it.

    Perhaps working for a big company is now just like having a normal job??? Maybe it is not? I have not done the research.

    More shitting bricks of stupid. You never seem to tire of it. Maybe you need to consider getting better fiber in your mental diet, rather than trying to digest trees or whatever it is you’re doing.

    But just because someone is in porn or an atheist IMO does not change the fact of what great accomplishments they might be capable of. Every individual is different; hence the term individual. Every story is different.

    You’re just now realizing that everyone is different? Hint: Most of us realize this when we’re three or four years old. What took you so long?

    And if you’re blathering this dime-store sentimental vomit all over the place, then why are you so fucking judgmental about sex and porn?

    While hardcore religious folk have an easy answer…”it jus aint right” or something to that effect… My answer would have to be more about the long term emotional effects of the porn industry on humans…especially with the internet.

    This is rich. You’re worried about emotional effects of pornography, when you’re completely oblivious to reams of data about the history and variety of human sexuality–including people watching other people fuck. Hell, the Marquis de Sade wrote extensively about the matter 200 years ago. Where the fuck have you been?

    What percentage of pedophiles support and take advantage of this industry which resorts in crimes?(most important)

    We’ve been talking about ADULT porn. Why did your sick little mind (emphasis on little) go there, you disgusting creep?

    Why dont we just open up the Greek baths?

    The Greek baths were basically public bathing, just like what takes place in Japan RIGHT FUCKING NOW, you blithering imbecile.

    Why havent all humans engaged in sexual pleasure so others can watch for the past million years?

    Uh–they have been watching others have sex for a long time–in person, or through erotic art, you ahistorical, illiterate nitwit.

    I mean, really, the stuff isn’t that difficult to find. How about this print, from the 1760s:

    http://www.theartofjapan.com/Art_Images/Large/10092509.JPG

    Did cave men sit around and watch Ulg and Helga go at it doggystyle in the corner for hours?

    Beats looking at fire all the time, don’t you think?

    Not to say that’s a question to debate either side…I am just asking a question is all

    By now, your illiteracy is no longer a surprise. One recommendation: READ SOME FUCKING HISTORY AND ANTHROPOLOGY or hell, even art history!

    Good grief, there is no excuse for being so fucking stupid in this day and age!

    Is there nothing to be said about mating for Life?

    Yeah–it’s not very fucking realistic. I mean, if you want that, then by all means, do so. But we probably weren’t meant to spend 50+ years with the same person. We used to not live so long after reaching marriageable age, after all.

    As humans are we better off savagely expressing our sexual desires for pleasure and pleasure alone?

    How is not being with the same person forever the same fucking thing as only seeking pleasure, you dishonest, judgmental sack of shit?

    Sexuality is rooted in the process of survival.

    And pleasure. Making it pleasurable for a species which has no visible signs of estrus means that you’re more likely to, pardon the phraseology, fucking have sex!

    If we did not want to have sex we would not

    Does not follow. We evolved from species that had sex. We didn’t really have any choice about being a sexual species, stupid.

    and nobody would be here.

    If people didn’t fuck for fun, nobody would be here, because, for the second time we do not know when women are ovulating you stupid bag of hammers!

    <i.As our minds have grown to understand that do we then abuse a natural instinct to the point of Life=pleasure………..or pain……………orwhatever your fancy?

    Sit down and shut up, you fucking moron. You know nothing about the history of mankind, the basic fucking science–nothing.

    You are too fucking stupid to breathe. Fuck off.

    For me, Life is about living. Sex is a part of it. I believe nature intended me to “scout the field” and “woo a mate”. All sexual needs, wants or selfish pleasures are then taken care of.

    So you do have sex for pleasure, you moronic hypocrite.

    But I am just me and no one has lived my Life.

    It’s amazing you’ve survived this long with a brain the size of a quark.

    As a human

    Debatable.

    as a human who wishes to advance my understanding

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Most clueless statement on the internet right now!

    If you’ve tried to advance your understanding, cupcake, you’ve botched the whole fucking enterprise. You’re a walking, talking warning to others about the persistence of willful and blind stupidity.

    …desire and pleasure have their place, with ones mate or mates.

    Aw, is that a light bulb going on, or did someone open a fridge?

    I don’t need to screw 5000 woman or watch 5000 women get screwed. I need one woman. Whom I make Love to 5000 times.

    And, once again, you dishonest, hypocritical, stupid, judgmental scumbag, having more than one partner does not mean you are immoral. Having 5000 doesn’t mean you’re immoral. It just means you’re not satisfied with one partner. If every single one of those 5000 partners goes into the sex act with respect, consent, honesty and no diseases, then what fucking concern of it is yours?

    (i hate this topic, I feel strongly that there is something wrong about porn, but i cannot either place it or justify it.)

    The only thing you said that is remotely tied to something called sense.

    Shut up.

  380. 380
    J_Brisby

    I’m curious: can anyone give a good rational reason why performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye?

    Hey, one day you’re acting in porn, the next you’re politely hitting on women in elevators.

  381. 381
    Tom

    With regards to the pornstar – banker comparison, I have only this observation to add:

    I am not aware of a single instance of catastrophic global economic meltdown and mass long-term unemployment being caused by any number of porn actors.

    They may make some people feel inadequate in the bedroom by comparison, but at least you can be damn sure they won’t get you fired from your day job (unless, of course, your day job is porn).

  382. 382
    Nick Gotts

    I believe nature intended me to “scout the field” and “woo a mate”. – Infinite123Lifer</blockquote.

    You're wrong: nature has no intentions whatever.

  383. 383
    Carlie

    As humans are we better off savagely expressing our sexual desires for pleasure and pleasure alone?

    So I guess that means we all should eat only oatmeal and the occasional chunk of tofu, lest we savagely express our taste-based desires for food pleasure and pleasure alone.

    And we should only create objects in the color gray, lest we savagely express our visual desires for aesthetic pleasure and pleasure alone.

    And we should not have any type of music, lest we savagely express our auditory desires for listening pleasure and pleasure alone.

  384. 384
    cswella

    Hey, one day you’re acting in porn, the next you’re politely hitting on women in elevators.

    Trying to connect porn stars to elevatorgate?

    I can’t tell if it’s sarcasm or stupidity.

    And I’m not aware of a ‘polite’ way to hit on anyone in an enclosed space.

  385. 385
    Surgoshan

    Why would it reduce your credibility? Simple! No one could look at you without thinking, “Heh. You lean left.”

  386. 386
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Sex is for reproduction…

    I take it you still live in a nomadic hunter gather tribe?

  387. 387
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    While hardcore religious folk have an easy answer…”

    Yes and that answer is

    Sex is for reproduction

  388. 388
    Infinite123Lifer

    Iam not going to go through this and edit it. It is what it is. i hope you understand. Damn people, I am on porns side but it is not a PERFECT enterprise. Nor did I ever imply that it was wrong for consenting adults. Am I arguing teenagers or people who are high or people who are extremely upset at what I have said because they think I have offended them. I am all for porn…….I am not for saying porn is perfect or the way of the future or a GREAT thing. It is what it is. Its to satisfy nothing more and to me that just seems kind of empty. Damn I mentioned opinion I didnt state many facts but its all out of control now.

    @378 Caine, Fleur du Mal:

    I asked if there was nothing to be said about mating for Life.

    I did not say anything about it. I did not say it has anything to with happy healthy enthusiastic porn. I did not say you should not enjoy porn.

    Where do you get all these imaginary implying statements?

    I said As humans are we better off savagely expressing our sexual desires for pleasure and pleasure alone?

    I did not say enjoying sex makes it savage. I said the sex industry is a bad ass enterprise that explores all types of sex. Savagely expressing is just a term for constant access to porn. I did not imply it as violent, as you should be able to note from my context.

    I did not say sex is not for reproduction for you. I said the evolutionary reason for sex is reproduction and maybe evolved as a coping mechanism. Also I am not a cupcake. Just because you are childfree and enjoy sex you should not take offense to my comment, I never said consensual sex/porn was wrong, as long as no laws are being broken and nobody is suffering. It was not an ultimate statement about the ONLY reasons for sex.

    How is the purpose of sex not for reproduction in nature? Whether we all use it recreationally as well. Oh and yes you are part of nature.

    No I have not poked my head out of my ass because it is not up there.

    @Giliell, the woman who said Good-bye to Kitty:

    I said sex is for reproduction…we’ve just become selfish about it.

    That is not about me it is about the porn industry and the millions of admitted sex addicts around the world. How much money is made of porn???????? There are many many people who consider themselves sex addicts. They even have AA type meetings about it. This is not me though because I have always engaged in healthy usually awesome consenting sex with whoever the fuck I want to.

    I said what percentage of pedophiles support and take advantage of the industry which resorts in crimes.

    You said it does not compute. It is not that tough. Are you saying there are no underground illegal porn rings. There are about 80,000 children in the US trafficked into porn who I would jack you in the face for. What about snuff films you ignoramus? Are you denying these exist or exist because of the steady progression of porn? And it is progressing. There is more porn in the world and it grows exponentially. To keep your argument limited to what you like to watch of the tv is being bias.
    I said Why haven’t all humans engaged in sexual pleasure so other can watch for the past million years?

    You say “Why shouldn’t people who like having sex in front of others do so in front of people who like watching them? “

    WTF does what you said have to do with what I said. I asked a question. Has porn existed for millions of years? That’s it. I asked a question and you assume I am saying people shouldn’t do porn. I never said that. Did not insinuate ever that people if they decide should not do porn. Never did, you are reading into my vague statement. Yeah vague, I kept it open for discussion.

    @380 sunnydale75

    what burden? I asked a question looking for information. Cite sources for what? Caveman sex?
    You think porn has been around forever as we describe it?
    Really?

    Wtf is wrong with you people. I basically make a post asking a bunch of questions saying that I have problems with porn and I am crucified. I am not religious, I am not racist, I don’t give a fuck who you all fuck or when or who watches. I never said nobody should either. My gripe is with the money machine which exploits human beings. You don’t think there is a money machine taking advantage of humans in porn? There are task forces whose sole purpose is to review porn to look for illegal activity you ignorant fucks.

    Since we are all name calling here.

    @384 KG

    I am wrong? Nature has no intentions? Are you fucking serious? I said I believe this is MY purpose and how I should LIVE MY LIFE. I did not judge you or nature or say nature intended anything. Correct me if your post is correct. 384. I said nature intends what???????????? Dumbass (sorry iam a bit defensive at this point)

    @385 Carlie:

    savagely expressing. I am a sav. I am a savage beootch. I get down. Savagely expressing was intended to mean without control. Are you saying millions of people do not admit to having problems with sex addiction? Are you for real?
    Once again I asked a question, I only asked a queston and you infer something you think I imply out of a question. Why don’t you try answering the question! How is music and food less harmful than sex. Last time I checked no one has caught a disease, or commited adultery over food and music.

    R u guys all students? Wtf
    I am just a normal cat who loves to fuck but Iam not without regard for discussing options to the future. I am not condemning consensual sex between adults. Turn on your webcam and have at it. I never said you shouldn’t. WTF

  389. 389
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    Dude, name some fucking names.

    Hi Sally. I named cswella and Azkyroth.

    I almost gave you as an example of the opposite behavior, acknowledging difference, but it was hard to make the sentence pretty:

    A couple of those who are generally in favor of porn (obviously not all: “I know some feminists, like Skeptifem, have a very different opinion on it”), evidentally, cannot tolerate difference and cannot engage their rhetorical opponents with a most basic charity.

    May I infer from your reaction that you find such tactics questionable?

  390. 390
    Don Quijote

    Sex is for reproduction in porno films.

    Hey! If I used a name of a street where I lived once, I could call myself Duquesa de Alba. I don’t think she would be too impressed though.

  391. 391
    Ing

    As humans are we better off savagely expressing our sexual desires for pleasure and pleasure alone?

    Yes. Repression takes a lot of mental energy that finding a release frees up for more productive pursuits.

    If you don’t think sports, videogames, puzzles, games, debate, music on and of course religion (sadism and cannibalism anyone?) etc fulfill savage carnal desires in a safe and socially productive context you’re fooling yourself.

  392. 392
    Ing

    n. Has porn existed for millions of years?

    Yes.

    And probably in verbal form before it existed in visual representation.

  393. 393
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    Except that’s not analogous to the position to which I explicitly narrowed my criticism. It would be more like saying “working for an hourly wage is bad because selling your labor is inherently exploitative and a worker cannot meaningfully consent to it.”

    Azkyroth, this rewrite appears to be arbitrary from my perspective. Obviously you have some reason for finding it more appropriate, but you give me no route toward understanding your reasoning.

    I’ll try to work with what you give me, though. Your rewrite is recognizably an expression of anarcho-syndicalism: “Anarcho-syndicalists seek to abolish the wage system, regarding it as wage slavery, and state or private ownership of the means of production, which they believe lead to class divisions.”

    Anarcho-syndicalists, you recall, are keen to give workers an alternative to working for an hourly wage, and resolve the issue of consent like so: because someone who does not have the option of being an owner cannot meaningfully “choose” the only other option (to be a worker), let’s make every worker an owner! A simple and elegant solution.

    Whatever your opinion on the feasibility of anarcho-syndicalism, you will surely agree with a couple of things: their ideal world sounds like a pretty decent place to live, and they are not anti-worker.

    Those feminists who correspond to the anarcho-syndicalists in your analogy, then, are likewise not being anti-feminist when they bring the generalized criticism you object to.

  394. 394
    Infinite123Lifer

    Ok I retract all statements.

    Porn is perfect with no faults, implies no future worries and is 100% acceptable amongst all of humanity at all times. As long as it is consensual.

    However, I still stick by the CORE of my original post which in case you missed it because I am skeptic that porn is perfect but people should not be judged I said this beeotches:

    “But just because someone is in porn or an atheist IMO does not change the fact of what great accomplishments they might be capable of. Every individual is different; hence the term individual. Every story is different.”

    Your all railing against the wrong cat. If it is my fault for my wording than I take full responsibility. I was trying to be quick with some big issues. Savage is highly misinterpreted. I thought since I was with the porn crowd you might understand the lingo. Iama sav. Just not on the computer. Peace out.

  395. 395
    Ing

    @infinitelifer

    Oh drop the martyr complex

  396. 396
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    And again, the position being critiqued is not “specific aspects of the pornography industry as it exists today are problematic” but that “there are no circumstances in which a woman’s choice to perform in pornographic material could be accepted as free or valid” – in other words, that, at least in terms of sex, women are incapable of meaningfully choosing.

    That’s apparently not what’s being critiqued here, because you will be unable to quote anyone in this thread saying that stuff, as the initial catalyst for cswella’s comment.

    1) how is that position not anti-feminist?

    And wouldn’t you think it an unusually good day, Azkyroth, if someone made precisely the sort of argument that you would ideally like to shred? But rarely is it so. Those you get to deal with are usually less than the Platonic ideal, and contain nuances you find unnecessary or trivially dismissable, ultimately leading to the accusation that you can’t even bring yourself to characterize your opponents’ arguments accurately.

    2) how are your counter-examples and analogies relevant to it?

    The example of women leaving the workplace establishes that personal agency is not sufficient to prove that an issue is off-topic for feminist criticism.

    The example of union organizing establishes that a person can say “you X are being exploited and are not fully free (lacking some positive liberties)” without being anti-X.

    3) where do you get off whining about people being uncharitable when you can’t even bring yourself to characterize your opponents’ arguments accurately?

    Who knows? Perhaps I am a grotesque hypocrite and all-around jerk who kicks puppies, not just my own puppies, but other people’s puppies. I’d still argue that tu quoque is a fallacy, such that when I call attention to someone else being a puppy-kicker, my accusation should be taken on its own merits.

    These accusations have, in fact, been made elsewhere, including by the subject of the discussion you are probably alluding to. We are not goldfish and the claim that goldfish have a memory span of only four seconds is false anyway.

    Note I was careful to say “I don’t see anyone here saying ….” Whatever the tragedies of past comment threads, each thread starts anew in a sense: each takes place with a slightly different cast of characters, and the regulars have all changed slightly in the meantime.

    My hope is that one or more discussion threads could take place without anyone calling a fellow feminist “anti-feminist”. That just seems like a productive baseline to me.

    If I’ve called generally pro-porn self-identified feminists “anti-feminist” in the past, then I was wrong to do so. I have a pretty good memory for this, and I’m fairly sure I haven’t, but it is possible and I’m willing to attempt to account for any quotes that seem borderline.

    The truth is it’s obvious that there is a huge range of feminist opinion on this issue, and all those involved in this and past discussions who’ve sincerely attempted to approach the issue from what they understand to be a feminist perspective do not deserve to be called anti-feminist for it, regardless of their failures. And obviously I think the generally pro-porn feminists have arrived at many failures, but their motivations and reasoning are still surely cognizant of women’s power; even without explicit access to their reasoning, I can rationally assume this, heuristically from their motivation and reasoning on other topics.

    So, yeah, I’d really like a discussion in which those regulars who we know to be feminists from their other comments, and those newbies who can be afforded the benefit of the doubt, do not have to have their basic self-identification as feminists disputed. I think this much is possible because we can discuss the merits of any given argument as being good or bad for women’s power, while understanding that the arguer sincerly thinks their own argument to be good for women’s power.

    I don’t want us all to get along. I enjoy being a hater! But I would really enjoy these debates better if we could be haters while acknowledging each others’ place as feminists.

  397. 397
    SallyStrange

    If it is my fault for my wording than I take full responsibility.

    It’s your fault for the wording, but it’s also your fault for being, well, stupid. Too bad you are not willing to take responsibility for being so dull-witted. “Every story is different” is a trivial, pointless truism that might sound deep and profound to a five year old.

    @ Ad hominum

    If Azkyroth or cvella (I’m not familiar with the latter) would tell Skeptifem or any other anti-porn feminist, to her face, that she is simply not a feminist, despite her protestations to the contrary, I think that would be a real asshole move.

    That seems to me to be a tad bit different that expressing the view that saying that women are incapable of meaningfully choosing to do X, whatever X is, runs (or appears to run) contrary to the feminist ethos of guaranteeing choice to all women when it comes to determining their own destinies.

    It was a nice explanation you gave. I get the objections to porn. I guess I fall into the camp of “that anarcho-syndicalist thing sounds nice, but not particularly feasible, so let’s work with the real world for now.” The fact is that there IS non-exploitative porn already, so those insisting that all porn is inherently exploitative aren’t dealing with reality. Unless you’re going to take the route of distrusting the voices of women like Greta Christina, and telling them that they are simply wrong when they proclaim that they do porn because they like sex, they like exhibitionism, and they’d do more of it if it weren’t for the social stigma. That is anti-feminist. It doesn’t mean that a person expressing that view is not a feminist, it just means that she’s playing out an anti-feminist meme when it comes to porn. I think that if you’re going to sit there and claim that there’s a whole category of choices that women simply can’t make, in the grounds of ideology, you’re going to have to get used to being questioned about how well your claims really gel with the core of feminist thought.

  398. 398
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    And if it takes truth and reconciliation discourse for us to start anew with such a baseline of mutual recognition, then let’s have that discourse. Seriously. It could be very helpful.

  399. 399
    RFW

    #148 Aquaria says:

    …not so long ago, most of the women in porn weren’t there because they wanted to be, really. They were drugged, they were forced by pimps, and so on.

    Sez who? Reference, please.

    I think that’s total BS. I’ve seen a fairly wide swathe of porn in my day, including silent movies that must have been made in the 1920s. None of the women looked or behaved as if they were not in control of their own bodies. A little bored sometimes, but not coerced.

    In fact, I’d say your baseless dissing of the women in porn is an anti-feminist attitude for the same reason others have given: it denies women the right to do what they fucking well please.

  400. 400
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    Sally,

    If Azkyroth or cvella (I’m not familiar with the latter) would tell Skeptifem or any other anti-porn feminist, to her face, that she is simply not a feminist, despite her protestations to the contrary, I think that would be a real asshole move.

    Nobody brought up skeptifem until you at #155. We can assume that Azkyroth is always and forever talking about skeptifem, but cswella’s comment was at #119 and we may rationally assume that it refers to someone in this thread.

    Surely such a comment does not make the discussion easier to have.

  401. 401
    Infinite123Lifer

    Rev. BigDumbChimp says:

    Sex is for reproduction…

    I take it you still live in a nomadic hunter gather tribe?
    ___
    Sex is not for reproduction? WTF How do you think you got here foolio? I did not say it was not for other things as well.
    _______________________________________________________

    Rev. BigDumbChimp says:

    While hardcore religious folk have an easy answer…”

    Yes and that answer is

    Sex is for reproduction
    ___
    This is what I said

    “While hardcore religious folk have an easy answer…”it jus aint right” or something to that effect…”

    Whatever reason a religious person wants to substitute in for

    “it just aint right because…”

    does not matter to me. I am under the impression that in generally Christianity, Catholics, Muslims and other such sized religions are against porn. Or is that assumption wrong?

    Also, how in the hell to you not agree that sex is for reproduction. It might be for other things dumbchimp but it certainly is for reproduction or your sorry dumbchipnub ass wouldn’t be wasting our time trolling like a bitch. I did not say it was not for anything either. I just said sex is for reproduction or did you want me to name every aspect of sex besides its main function?
    ________________________
    @393
    Ing says:
    10 November 2011 at 2:35 pm

    As humans are we better off savagely expressing our sexual desires for pleasure and pleasure alone?

    Yes. Repression takes a lot of mental energy that finding a release frees up for more productive pursuits.
    If you don’t think sports, videogames, puzzles, games, debate, music on and of course religion (sadism and cannibalism anyone?) etc fulfill savage carnal desires in a safe and socially productive context you’re fooling yourself.
    ___
    You say “If I don’t think…”.
    I asked a question why do you assume that I Even Disagree
    With Your Statement. LMAO. Why would you assume I am either agreeing or disagreeing with whatever you write. I asked a question. Do you think you already knew my answer because I am interested in an answer. Asking questions dear.
    _________________________
    @Ing394

    Has porn existed for millions of years?

    Yes.

    And probably in verbal form before it existed in visual representation.
    ___
    Thank you for Answering Question!!!!!! You are the first one to actually just answer a question.

    Congratulations you get whatever the hell you want.
    And I will give it to you.
    And if anyone wants to watch its on them.

    Silly Rabbits.

  402. 402
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    And on cue, RFW provides an example, now aimed at Aquaria, of precisely why we ought to nip this in the bud.

  403. 403
    Ing

    @Infinitelifer

    My point was that many things are fulfilling base instincts redirected into harmless or socially positive goals.

    There is little difference from the audience POV between the movies of today and the gladiator blood sports of the past. The accomplishment is that we no longer actually harm people to satisfy that blood lust of the consumer..and if we’re really lucky we get to slide in some artistic or philosophical meeting..

  404. 404
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    Caine:

    No one typed that specific sentence, however, that sentiment was expressed by more than one person, citing that all porn demeans women, therefor, porn is bad

    This much could be true…

    and if you’re pro-porn, then you are anti-feminist.

    but this part would not follow.

    When I express my opinion of marriage—heterosexual marriage is generally bad for women and children and society in general, good feminist marriage and queer marriage to some degree provides cover for oppression among the majority, and thus all marriage is bad—I am not saying that anyone who gets married is being anti-feminist. I don’t believe the latter statement and I’m prepared to argue against it.

    Indeed I acknowledge the existence of feminist marriage, and if a marriage is feminist then it cannot also be anti-feminist.

    But I would still say the existence of marriage per se is bad for women.

    A reading of “bad for women” as “anti-feminist” is not always plausible in a complex world where things can be good in some ways and bad in others, where there are no ideal options.

    The world we now have could be bad for women but better than other plausible worlds, regarding whatever topic, so a feminist option would be to choose the least bad; thus “bad for women” can be “still feminist”. The same applies when saying “X is bad for women but I don’t know how to get to a better world from here, except by talking about how X is bad for women and hoping that someone else finds a better way.” (This last statement is basically my conclusion on marriage.)

  405. 405
    Infinite123Lifer

    How do I wade through all Aquaria misinterpretations at 381 again. They must have deleted my post or I did not Submit it. If mine was being checked and denied than how does his hold up.

    He only makes one correct interpretation in the entire post as to his inferences to my comments.

    But they erased it. So Aquaria, chill the fuck out. Your not as intuitive as you think you are punk.

    @Ing 405

    I agree. My point is that I never said those instincts should NOT be fulfilled.

    @381. My post was better than yours but the Gods removed it I suppose. Funny, I did not even do as much name calling as you, you, you, atriaxophob. I spent 20 minutes on your crap, every statement you make is incredibly wrong in your ASSUMPTIONS and 381 is full of em.

    I ask questions you make assumptions.

    @Ing.

    I aint playing the martyr card. My statements were not thoroughly complete enough to be understood.

    Severely taken out of context. For every question I asked, I got an opinion about what I thought. Thats you Aquarmania. Post 381 left me no choice Ing. Crucified. What did you want me to do come back to Life? Or retract my statements.

  406. 406
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    InfinitiveLifer
    What’s actually your point?
    People have been arguing about the woes and problems of mainstream porn for hours, on the problems of coercion, the problems of perpetuating harmful tropes, and then you come along and act as if you have to explain things to us, spluttering bullshit which you later claim means something different in context.
    You then also accuse people who’ve been discussing those problems for hours (and alternatives, mind you, how dare they!) and tell them that they obviously don’t see anything bad about the industry.
    That makes you dishonest and not arguing in good faith.

    You said it does not compute. It is not that tough. Are you saying there are no underground illegal porn rings.

    Nope, never claimed that.

    There are about 80,000 children in the US trafficked into porn who I would jack you in the face for. What about snuff films you ignoramus? Are you denying these exist

    No, I don’t. I know pretty well that child pornography exists.

    or exist because of the steady progression of porn?

    This I challenge. Because that’s exactly like those catholic assholes who say that child abuse is enabled by adults having consensual sex.
    There are criminals who don’t only exploit adults, but also children and they should be adequately prosecuted. But even from my limited knowledge about the adult porn industry, it seems rather that the liberation of sex has led to a partly destigmatization of porn with lots of consenting adults who do it willingly. And lots more of adults who unashamedly consume porn. What this doesn’t imply is that mainstream comercial porn enables, supports or provides cover for child abuse.
    Because, and I’m typing this slowly for you, there is no connection between consenting adults having sex and people raping children. With or without a camera.

    And it is progressing. There is more porn in the world and it grows exponentially. To keep your argument limited to what you like to watch of the tv is being bias.

    Eh, what? There are lots of things I like and dislike, and some of those things are growing and some are vanishing. But as an adult I understand that what I like is not a criterion as to what is right.
    You know, if the growth is that of positive pornography, of pornography that doesn’t just portray the old humping myth and shows how people and especially women are given pleasure, then that would be something to be welcomed. I still wouldn’t watch it, probably, but that#s just me.
    BTW, I don’t deny that there’s more porn, but I’d like to know if the actual consumption is growing that much. Seems to me that before people were limited to a few articles, while now they have lots of choice.

  407. 407
    Loreo

    Good damn question.

    Personally, I would love to do porn. I have no idea how I could reconstruct my life to make something like that happen, but it’s on my bucket list.

    Being an exhibitionist like that – it’s like the opposite of the shame and guilt attached to sex by the RCC, all the shame I felt growing up.

    Just once, I want to do something that would be absolutely unallowed by all those fucking penguins.

  408. 408
    Icaarus

    Okay so late to the party

    PZ. I have only one reason for you not to do porn, and it does correlate back to puritanical societal values, okay so here it is: “Would you still be as scary for your 8 am classes if your class had seen you naked the night before in some PornTube trawl?” If the answer is ever either yes, or actually they would be more scared into paying attention, then that suddenly turns into an argument for doing porn.

  409. 409
    Weedless Monkey

    Infinite123Lifer, you are responsible for your own words.

    Iam not going to go through this and edit it. It is what it is. i hope you understand.

    If you can’t be arsed to write what you really mean you really should just not write it at all.

  410. 410
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    Sally, I’ll have to take a couple hours break before answering the rest of your #399.

  411. 411
    Travis

    A bit of a tangental post here: I was just reading a thread on Fetlife about people not wanting to date strippers and I was shocked by how sexist and sex-negative the comments were. I expected better from a bunch of kinksters but sadly it was as bad as the outside world.

  412. 412
    cicely

    I like to see some hair on my nekkid men; the baby’s-ass hairless look kinda squicks me out.

    I don’t mistake this for “the only right way” for it to be.

    Why is this harddifficult?
    -

    also you claim to be gay

    WTF???

    Don’t you think he’d know?
    -

    Yeah, PROVE that you’re gay, Josh. RIGHT NOW.
    Well, in one sec… let me get my camera… okay, NOW prove that you’re gay!

    *snortle!*

    And make sure that it’s quality pornproof!
    -

    Satisfied?

    No, darling. You didn’t talk about the clothes enough.

    Snortle!!
    -

    –since we’re talking about porn, should we also be naked?

    Well…I’m at work. I believe that, at least in the Minor Computer Software industry, that would be considered “unprofessional”.

    (Leaving the aesthetic aspects completely alone.)
    -

  413. 413
    SallyStrange

    At this point, I have to wonder whether ad hominum holds a position on the compatibility of porn with feminism himself, or is just arguing to argue. Since most of your posts have focused on reinterpreting what other people have said, or what you think they might say, it’s rather curious, AH. Do you have a dog in this fight? If so, it’d behoove you to make it clear.

    As far as cswella goes, I am sorry his/her ‘nym didn’t stick in my brain. I mean, I read his/her post, but since that’s the only time I’ve ever seen anything written by him/her, the ‘nym didn’t stick (I’ve got a terrible memory for names, both on and offline). Azkyroth, on the other hand, is a person who posts regularly, so I am familiar with his style and his opinions. I only mentioned Skeptifem because she’s one of the few feminists I know who are strongly opposed to porn in general and is very articulate about defending that point of view.

    Answering my post wouldn’t be that interesting at this point. If you’re interested in continuing the conversation, just tell us what YOU think about the whole thing.

  414. 414
    Infinite123Lifer

    @408 Kitty

    You challenge the fact that illegal porn does not grow as the porn industry grows because that’s exactly like those catholic assholes who say that child abuse is enabled by adults having consensual sex.

    I don’t follow this time. How is the progression of the porn industry directly effecting the growth of illegal porn exactly like those catholic assholes? I did not say child abuse is enabled by adults having consensual sex.

    I asked is the progression of illegal porn spawned by porn itself.

    And in this meaning the word “porn” does not just relate to happy good ol’ consenting porn.
    I said porn, as in its entirety.

    Kitty said:

    “You know, if the growth is that of positive pornography, of pornography that doesn’t just portray the old humping myth and shows how people and especially women are given pleasure, then that would be something to be welcomed.”

    Yes and would be welcomed and well that is a nice fairy tale world.
    Try working with the FBI and homicide. Your interpretation of the porn industry as a whole is wrong. That is my point.

    I never said there was not perfectly healthy porn out there. But we are talking about the porno industry and those who work in it and why they are judged so negatively. They are judged negatively because the field they work in is connected to illegal porn by the name itself. Until recently with the corporate porn I guess you could say.

    Is it right? I don’t think so. But my point is that is why people look down on porn. Most do not see both sides. Does not make it right. And I have not stated that it does.

    ________________________
    @411Weed Monkey

    Not everyone is perfect or has the time. I am not here to be an asshole. I am here to ask questions because the matter is confusing to me. It is hard to interpret such a wide industry. And I wrote plenty. Twice once and for 20 minutes for nothing so get off the mom talk.
    But I agree with you. Not everyone is 100%. I am in a bed herbal primate. I still deserve to be able to write as long as I give 100%. Or maybe you don’t like people who ask questions. I guess I wont ask anymore questions. Questions are bad I suppose. Every question I wrote received an opinionated response based solely on which each thought. Or maybe I am missing it.

    @399 Sally Strange

    I said it was my fault. Who else would I blame. And no it is not my fault for being stupid. Chances are a person is not stupid for offering an opinion on porn. I did take responsibility. I said @myfirstpost374myfirstwords

    “Once again I may not be answering the right question or basking in some ignorance as I have not read all the comments here so do not know if someone has mentioned it or not but my aversion to the porn industry”

    My questions at 374 1-7 did not imply that consenting adult porn was wrong. I was asking questions which the porn industry has an effect on.

    If I am so stupid maybe you all are too damn smart for your own good. Think you know everything and have the answers. Find some facts about 1-7. They are easy to find.
    More importantly I did not imply what 90% of my quoted statements were accused of implying by others. 381 is a gross example.
    _______________________________
    Dumb, stupid. It’s a part of the world. Don’t anybody think your not dumb or stupid about something. Narcissistic pompous arrogant jerks.

  415. 415
    nazani14

    A job in porn might be a good way of demonstrating that you were one of the 99%, willing to do anything to support your family, and thus, a political asset. I highly recommend the episode on home-made porn in Lisa Ling’s Our America.

    http://www.oprah.com/own-our-america-lisa-ling/Our-America-with-Lisa-Ling-Amateur-Porn-FULL-EPISODE

  416. 416
    scriabin

    “Can anyone give a good rational reason why performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye?”

    The answer should obviously be “no”, but, sadly, it’s being put to the test in Canada.

    Associate Chief Justice Lori Douglas is going to be put through a public inquiry by the Canadian Judicial Council. She is a well-respected judge at Family Court in Manitoba.

    Cutting through the peripheral rubbish around the situation, her husband took consensual, private bondage photos of her back when she was a lawyer. Through an awful series of events, the pictures (fairly) recently became public.

    There is no evidence that she did anything wrong other than trust her husband. Now she is, potentially, going under the microscope of a public inquiry by the CJC based on the existence and nature of sexual pictures of her disclosed to the public via a breach of her privacy.

    For those who don’t know, judges in Canada are appointed and not elected – which is why this stinks even more: judges are supposed to be protected from the outraged mewlings of moralistic morons.

    It reeks of Salem, and many of us in the legal profession are watching it in horror.

    So, PZ, your question is playing out to the north of you.

  417. 417
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Ah. Porn.

    Wel, this is a nice, bland topic that no-one will get emotional about.

    A lot of mainstream professional porn is deeply misogynistic and has way too many elements of abuse. That’s why I don’t consume it.

    I like me some amateur porn, especially when it is obvious that both parties are actually IN TO IT. I hate hate hate the porn schtick where the woman (or the bottom in gay porn) just lies there and takes it (especially when the man hits/slaps her, pounds away in a manner that looks painful, degrades her, etc). Not cool, not attractive, not arousing.

  418. 418
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    The same way you can believe that you would encourage your children into porn BUT you CAN NOT know how you would feel when you have them. Believe me it changes you, you DO NOT know what you will think about these things before you have tried them.

    And from this you are no longer allowed to speak on any subject in which you have not personally actively participated in.

  419. 419
    Ing

    @Infinitelifer

    You’re still on the rule of 3 with me so you get the befit of the doubt, just FYI

    Word of advice, go back and read aloud everything you type before you submit it. You are not coherent. Writing isn’t a skill everyone automatically has, but if you’re having trouble expressing yourself competently it is a good idea to go back and edit at least once.

  420. 420
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Sex is not for reproduction? WTF How do you think you got here foolio? I did not say it was not for other things as well.

    Yes that’s exactly what I said. Sex is not for reproduction. How amazingly astute of you to glean that from my comment.

    No wait, that’s fucking stupid. I asked what I did to see if you were living so far in the past that sex only had a single function (when even then it is easily arguable that it did not).

    You specifically insinuated that that was all that sex was for but that we have now selfishly turned it into something else.

    Sex is for reproduction…weve just become selfish about it….and maybe it is not a bad selfishness except when it starts to interfere with “What A Person REALLY Wants For Themselves”.

    So fool, stand by what you say, as garbled as it was, or don’t say it.

    This is what I said

    “While hardcore religious folk have an easy answer…”it jus aint right” or something to that effect…”

    Whatever reason a religious person wants to substitute in for

    “it just aint right because…”

    I was just quoting your ridiculous interpretation about what sex is “for”. If you feel the need to move the goalposts now, at least warn everyone to duck.

    And for fuck’s sake, learn how to use blockquotes.

  421. 421
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Dumb, stupid. It’s a part of the world. Don’t anybody think your not dumb or stupid about something. Narcissistic pompous arrogant jerks.

    Quoted for… well you all know why.

  422. 422
    Art

    Porn and politics is certainly not out of the question. As I remember it there was an Italian politician, a woman no less, who gained office after a career in porn. There was whispers that if you are going to get screwed, as you know you are by a politician, you might as well have the screwing done by a professional. Then again it was Italy, with a much narrower puritanical stripe.

    I think a lot of it has to do with couching. Start with a standard, or better, Christian upbringing. Write trauma that triggers a fall from grace. A career in porn that is at least moderately artful and, of course, stays within certain limits, dog and pony shows would cross the line, gay sex certainly would, and you might still seem redeemable. Follow with a grand come-to-Jesus moment, redemption and renunciation of porn.

    The right is really big on redemption and a quick rinse in the blood of Christ is held to remove all stains. Loyalty is about what you do for people. They become loyal to you by forgiving you and investing time and money in you. This backward from common understanding. W understood this and played the evangelical theme like a harp. The more they forgave him the more they trusted him and wanted to forgive.

    This is going to mean your porn films are going to be only limited, back channel, release. You will, of course, condemn anyone distributing them but will be unable to prevent sales because in your youth and inexperience you signed away the rights. The royalties will still come in, and make a nice second income. It also secures the lecherous male vote while hiding from their wives behind a combined boys-will-be-boys and blood of Christ gambit that they ride like a slide at the water park. Zooom … Splash … Lets go again.

    Bachmann tried this sort of thing in a much milder, and much less professionally spun, couched, and managed form with her claims of witchcraft.

  423. 423
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    I think that’s total BS. I’ve seen a fairly wide swathe of porn in my day, including silent movies that must have been made in the 1920s. None of the women looked or behaved as if they were not in control of their own bodies. A little bored sometimes, but not coerced.

    Are you being serious? Are you seriously saying that porn doesn’t have a coercion problem because you don’t think the women involved in the porn you’ve seen looked like they were there unwillingly? Do you honestly not think that someone coercing someone else into performing in porn wouldn’t control for that? Do you honestly think someone being coerced is going to risk further harm by not doing exactly as their told?

    *facepalm*

    Just putting this out there: it is possible to like porn and not being a knee-jerk, irrational defender of it.

  424. 424
    KG

    I am wrong? Nature has no intentions? Are you fucking serious? I said I believe this is MY purpose and how I should LIVE MY LIFE. I did not judge you or nature or say nature intended anything. Correct me if your post is correct. – infiniteidiocy

    I’d accuse you of lying if you were not obviously deranged. @374, you said:

    I believe nature intended me to “scout the field” and “woo a mate”.

  425. 425
    Ing

    I believe nature intended me to “scout the field” and “woo a mate”.

    Are you sure nature did not intend you to “break your ankle by tripping on a log and get eaten by a coyote”?

  426. 426
    Infinite123Lifer

    Don’t know what goal posts are. Don’t know how to use block qoutes or copy & paste.

    I don’t use computers I’ve made 50 blog entries dating back to 1997. Because iam not stupid. Because Life is enjoyable & I live it away from electronics with family friends and lovers.

    I have seen a lot. My questions have a certain amount of depth which is not easily understood. I have read the posts, they are not perfect but they are far from what they were accused of being. Think about progression of the species overtime. Think in terms of ultimates. Now I go fuck off. As you wish.

    I love how I could say. I like chocalate.
    Undoubtedly someone would say “just because YOU like chocalate doesn’t mean the rest of the world likes chocalate or has to suck down your chocalte smoothie to please u in ur fairytale world.

    And people iam on a cell phone. So piss off. Don’t u know what your reading. Its not as cut and dry as its made out to be here. Nothing is. Its a blog. It ain’t shit compared to what reality actual is, besides all the asshole remarks. Gut me for being concerned about the welfare of humanity. Yeah 381. Your all talk homie. Talk.

  427. 427
    Ing

    Off the cross now, someone else needs a turn

  428. 428
    Ing

    Infinitelifer, you are cordially invited to never come back or post again since you obviously a) don’t care about the blog or topic and b) don’t care about communicating to anyone

  429. 429
    KG

    And there is a vast difference between video porn and photographic porn. Think about the latter, and how so much of it is of nothing but women exposed for the pleasure of (overwhelmingly) men. Playboy is a lot more exploitative to me than, say, Debbie Does Dallas. Debbie Does Dallas is stupid, but it’s fantasy about men and women getting it on, as a commodity. Playboy is about women exposed as a commodity.

    Does that make sense? – Aquaria

    Sorry, this is going back a bit, but I’ve only just had time to read the whole thread.

    No, I don’t think it does make sense. They are both commercial porn, so the commercial/amateur distinction doesn’t apply. The women in Playboy are unlikely to have been coerced, are probably well-paid, and are in less physical danger than anyone taking part in actual sex, even if condoms are used. It seems that what you’re objecting to is porn that is aimed specifically at straight men (I don’t know if Playboy has a significant lesbian, er, readership) and that you find a turn-off, and finding reasons to justify calling it objectionable. You say the women are “exposed as a commodity”, but you can’t buy the women in Playboy any more than you could buy Debbie. Those buying Playboy presumably fantasise about sex with the models – and maybe prefer to construct their own fantasies, using the photos as a visual aid, rather than being directly shown what acts to fantasise.

  430. 430
    Ing

    People buy Playboy for the models? I figured they’d stop that around 1990 when they started using Nysian Auton models instead of people. The only good part of the mag was the articles.

  431. 431
    Tethys

    Infinite123

    Who is this Kitty that you keep addressing? Do you refer to Gilielle? Please have the basic courtesy to address people by their user name.

  432. 432
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I don’t use computers I’ve made 50 blog entries dating back to 1997. Because iam not stupid. Because Life is enjoyable & I live it away from electronics with family friends and lovers.

    Of course, because no one here spends any time with family, friends or lovers. How could we have been so clueless.

    I have seen a lot. My questions have a certain amount of depth which is not easily understood. I have read the posts, they are not perfect but they are far from what they were accused of being. Think about progression of the species overtime. Think in terms of ultimates. Now I go fuck off. As you wish.

    Your questions have a certain amount of arrogant ignorance about sex with highlights of stupidity and marble mouthed delivery from what I can tell. If that is depth in your Utopian flintstonesque non-electronic world then so be it. Not sure what the “progression of the species overtime” has anything to do with anything we’ve been trying to discuss here but ok. Have fun counting your worldly pleasures with your abacus.

    I love how I could say. I like chocalate.
    Undoubtedly someone would say “just because YOU like chocalate doesn’t mean the rest of the world likes chocalate or has to suck down your chocalte smoothie to please u in ur fairytale world.

    Is your chocolate perhaps laced with opiates or hallucinogens?

    And people iam on a cell phone. So piss off. Don’t u know what your reading. Its not as cut and dry as its made out to be here. Nothing is. Its a blog. It ain’t shit compared to what reality actual is, besides all the asshole remarks. Gut me for being concerned about the welfare of humanity. Yeah 381. Your all talk homie. Talk.

    Yes, oh wise non electronic using cell phone user, we are sheltered from this thing you call reality. Please enlighten us to your homieness way of living.

  433. 433
    Infinite123Lifer

    I don’t blog. Did I say that gives me superiority. Did I insinuate using a cell phone made me superior? So much bullshit here. Instead of asking me to explain myself just rail against me for things I don’t even believe in. Sex is not for reproduction originally? Pleasurable means of sex have evolved from its sole purpose. Incredible. Arrogant fucks. Best of luck.

  434. 434
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Thetys

    Who is this Kitty that you keep addressing? Do you refer to Gilielle? Please have the basic courtesy to address people by their user name.

    He does indeed.
    And since he managed to adress me correctly in #390, I take it as a deliberate attempt to “put me into my place”. You know, Kitty, half way between a woman, a cat and something to stick the penis into.

    Infinitive123Lifer
    Put up or shut up.
    Provide evidence of a direct causal link between an increase in adult porn (with all the problems everybody acknowledges) and an increase in child pornography.

    You know, it takes a lot of stupid for someone to utter to make me defend porn.

  435. 435
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    At this point, I have to wonder whether ad hominum holds a position on the compatibility of porn with feminism himself, or is just arguing to argue. Since most of your posts have focused on reinterpreting what other people have said, or what you think they might say, it’s rather curious, AH. Do you have a dog in this fight? If so, it’d behoove you to make it clear.

    Hi? I’m strange gods. My positions on porn are documented and I expect I may have answered that question already. My position on feminism is most pertinent: Sarah Palin is a feminist because she says she is and I think she’s being sincere in her understanding. I can tell you why Sarah Palin’s feminism is not a good idea; I can tell you how it’s bad for women and I don’t think that’s the same as saying it’s anti-feminist. There is a wide range of conflicting and even contradictory feminist opinion thus logically it must follow that some of it is bad for women. I think many liberals and leftists turn into libertarian feminists rather arbitrarily on just this one topic. Now that I think about it, I have already answered your question:

    So, yeah, I’d really like a discussion in which those regulars who we know to be feminists from their other comments, and those newbies who can be afforded the benefit of the doubt, do not have to have their basic self-identification as feminists disputed. I think this much is possible because we can discuss the merits of any given argument as being good or bad for women’s power, while understanding that the arguer sincerly thinks their own argument to be good for women’s power.

    I don’t want us all to get along. I enjoy being a hater! But I would really enjoy these debates better if we could be haters while acknowledging each others’ place as feminists.

  436. 436
    ad hominum salvator ॐ

    If somebody thinks the mention of Palin is unserious, it’s not, but substitute Sommers if necessary.

  437. 437
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I don’t blog. Did I say that gives me superiority. Did I insinuate using a cell phone made me superior? So much bullshit here. Instead of asking me to explain myself just rail against me for things I don’t even believe in. Sex is not for reproduction originally? Pleasurable means of sex have evolved from its sole purpose. Incredible. Arrogant fucks. Best of luck.

    Add reading comprehension to your list of things to be angry about.

  438. 438
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    bets on the flounce?

  439. 439
    KG

    Ing,
    Nysian Auton? Never heard of whatever that is.

    I tried googling and only got one hit – which was you on another thread. It was long before 1990 that I last saw a copy of Playboy, so I can’t even get a hint from there! Please enlighten me!

  440. 440
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    KG,
    I’m pretty sure that’s a Doctor Who reference.
    The Autons are a species of rubber/plastic mannequin-people.

    The first episode of New Who featured an army of department store mannequins chasing people.

  441. 441
    KG

    Thanks Esteleth – yes, that makes sense, even back in the day, there was something distinctly plasticised about Playboy models.

  442. 442
    jose

    To the advocates of feminist porn, a question about the content of porn films.

    It seems that most of that is amateur and independent from the industry, and it’s the main argument offered to counter attacks on porn, with mainstream porn being acknowledged by all of us (explicitly or tacitly) as bad. So would it be okay with you if all the mainstream porn industry was completely dismantled so that those independent underground festivals were all there was?

    If you said yes and the whole mainstream porn industry is out of the picture, let’s have a look at what remains. I’ve read Jen’s descriptions of okay porn. Most of it involves cumshots, violence and fakery. The pornographic elements seem pretty much the same as in mainstream porn. The main difference seems to be that these independent submissions have a funny plot whereas the mainstream has little or no plot.

  443. 443
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >what burden? I asked a question looking for information. Cite sources for what? Caveman sex?
    You think porn has been around forever as we describe it?
    Really?>Why havent all humans engaged in sexual pleasure so others can watch for the past million years?<<

    -You've started with the assumption that humans haven't engaged in sexual pleasure for others for the past million years. You're making a statement. A claim. You make this claim as if it is fact. I question whether this is fact. I'm asking you for your proof that this is true. Where are your sources? If you want to be taken seriously, when you make claims like this (and pretty much everything else in your post), you need to back them up.
    Is this a better explanation?

    Tony

  444. 444
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >Sex is not for reproduction? WTF How do you think you got here foolio? I did not say it was not for other things as well.<

    -I think the fundamental difference here is that you seem to believe sex is FOR some purpose. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me sex isn't FOR anything. If sex is FOR reproduction, it begs the questions of why and how it's FOR reproduction. Which implies an intellect. A designer. Someone/thing that designed sex FOR a specific purpose. To my mind, there is no designer. Therefore, there is no purpose. There's no ultimate, universal purpose for sex. However an individual defines sex is up to them.

    Tony

  445. 445
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    >I am here to ask questions because the matter is confusing to me. It is hard to interpret such a wide industry. And I wrote plenty. Twice once and for 20 minutes for nothing so get off the mom talk.<

    -As someone who's been reading your posts, I have to say I understand your confusion. Your initial post deals with a great many ideas, many of which you did not elaborate on. You made many claims, but you provided no supporting data on those claims. When you make claims, and you expect people to take you seriously, you have to back those claims up. If I make the statement:

    "the adult entertainment industry is seeing a tremendous decline in consumer demand"

    I would need to back that up. I'd have to offer proof. A citation (I'd probably need more than one citation, actually). If I don't, then why on earth would anyone believe me? It's part of the critical thinking process. You can't take at face value everything anyone tells you. You have to be able to filter out the nonsense. When people do no cite their sources, many times their conclusions will be ignored.

    You say it's hard to interpret such a large industry, yet so many of your comments show that you've done just that. You've arrived at conclusions that you're sharing with us. I know I'm not going to agree to those conclusions until you've shown why they're valid. To do that, you're going to have to cite sources.

    Tony

  446. 446
    Aquaria

    He only makes one correct interpretation in the entire post as to his inferences to my comments.

    I’m a she, moron.

    I didn’t make any interpretation of your posts. I was pointing out how your stupidity didn’t make any fucking sense. That’s what you’re too stupid to get.

    But they erased it.

    Even if that were true, I quote you, shit-for-brains. I picked up at your third point, but everything I wrote was in response to the phenomenally stupid and incoherent babble in your initial post that I chose to respond to. That’s what the italics/regular font switch-off means, you braindead stump.

    So Aquaria, chill the fuck out.

    Get off your fucking high horse, you stupid, dishonest and sniveling sack of shit. You’re the one getting upset because I pointed out what a moron you are.

    And just who the fuck are you to tell me what to do? 1) I have a mom, thanks. Passive-aggressive manipulativeness will have absolutely zero effect on me. I don’t get my motivation to do anything from sniveling fuckfaces like you. 2) I had the courtesy to try to make sense of your inane babbling, and pointed out some fucking reality to you. You don’t tell me what the fuck to do until you respond in an intelligent manner, or you can go fuck yourself with a decaying rabid porcupine.

    Your not as intuitive as you think you are punk.

    Oooooh, you’re so tough. I’m so fucking scared. NOT. Punk–seriously? That’s the best you can do?

    Intuition had nothing to do with how I answered you. I challenged the naked bullshit assertions you pulled out of your ass, and I even pointed you in some directions to educate yourself of your phenomenal ignorance. It’s not my fault you care more about your pweshus fee-fees, and not educating yourself.

    By the way–making bullshit assertions with absolutely zero to back them up makes you dishonest AND stupid.

    Make a point that makes fucking sense or fuck off, you turnip with legs. Makes no difference to me.

  447. 447
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Aquaria:

    -I feel much the same you do about this poster, but I think perhaps phrases and terms like “shit for brains”, “turnip with legs”, and “moron” might be counter productive. I’m not sure what PZ’s rules for posting are, but if the goal is to get INFINITIVE123LIFER to actually read what we’ve posted, as well as actually think things through, then lobbying insults may not be the best route to go.

    Tony

  448. 448
    Inaji

    Sunnydale75:

    but I think perhaps phrases and terms like “shit for brains”, “turnip with legs”, and “moron” might be counter productive. I’m not sure what PZ’s rules for posting are

    I like you, so here’s a handy hint: tone trolling isn’t gonna help. As for PZ’s rules, well…

    This is a rude blog. We like to argue — heck, we like a loud angry brawl. Don’t waste time whining at anyone that they’re not nice, because this gang will take pride in that and rhetorically hand you a rotting porcupine and tell you to stuff it up your nether orifice. If you intrude here and violate any of the previous three mores, people won’t like you, and they won’t hold back—they’ll tell you so, probably in colorful terms.

    We do have a general guideline for handling new people. If you’re a first time commenter, you get three strikes: you can make three comments, and the regulars are supposed to restrain themselves and try to get you to engage rationally before they are allowed to release the rabid hounds. They are hoping you will oblige them and give them an excuse to let slip the leash, so be warned.

    You can read more here: http://www.freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/08/01/pharyngula-standards-practices/

  449. 449
    kiki

    Sarah Palin is a feminist because she says she is and I think she’s being sincere in her understanding.

    A bit off the main track, and obviously I don’t know the background behind this statement, but… really? Sarah Palin always struck me as someone whose idea of feminism stopped at Sarah Palin. Does “Women should be able to do whatever they want, which includes dying in a fucking fire for all I care as long as I got mine” really count as feminism?

    (And that’s ignoring the idiot horde of women-hating shitbags she’s allied herself with.)

  450. 450
    Aquaria

    Sez who? Reference, please.

    I think that’s total BS. I’ve seen a fairly wide swathe of porn in my day, including silent movies that must have been made in the 1920s. None of the women looked or behaved as if they were not in control of their own bodies. A little bored sometimes, but not coerced.

    I guess you didn’t see Deep Throat, then? Linda Lovelace was upfront about doing cocaine during the shoot, and how her husband at the time coerced her into prostitution and porn. She made Deep Throat because he literally put a gun to her head to do the film at all.

    Are you sure nobody’s done drugs on a set? How about some testimony from someone in the business:

    http://www.shelleylubben.com/articles/drugs_industry.pdf

    I have been on a set where a girl has passed out DURING a sex scene with me (she was abusing oxycontin). Just recently a girl overdosed on GHB (a party drug that is the scourge of Texas, a clear odorless drug that doesn’t mix well with alcohol) on set.

    Overdosing on the set. Passing out during a scene. Yeah–so much for your powers of observation. No, no drugging the actresses possible there. Nothing to worry about. Move along.

    In fact, I’d say your baseless dissing of the women in porn is an anti-feminist attitude for the same reason others have given: it denies women the right to do what they fucking well please.

    Baseless. Right. I’lm sure you’ll explain to Linda Lovelace how you know better about things that happened to her than she does. I’m sure she’ll appreciate your adding insult to injury.

    And how is it dissing to be concerned about women being coerced or drugged to do something they might not want to do? Do you think that’s a good thing?

    Do you think it’s dissing women when you’re concerned about them having guns put to their heads to become prostitutes or porn stars? I dunno, me, I think being worried indicates that you do care about women and what happens to them. Sounds like…feminism to me.

    So it’s dangerously naive to assert that coercion and drugs are never a factor in porn for women. Look at what the porn person I linked to says about the predators in his business:

    Why is drug use so prevalent in our business? Well, lets figure that out. First of all, remember that the business is populated largely with girls aged 18-21. And the majority of those girls are uneducated (many haven’t graduated high school). Add to that the fact that many come into the business because they have no money, and are working at menial jobs like fast food places. So you have young girls who are uneducated with very little money entering the business.

    Once they are in the business, they are now making ten thousand dollars a month and working maybe 5 hours a day 10-15 days a month. There are predators out there that can smell these girls and prey on them like sharks. Young, uneducated girls with lots of money, lots of free time, and very little supervision. This is a really bad equation (unless you are a drug dealer of course).

    That doesn’t sound like someone who is dissing women. It sounds like someone who sees a bad situation, and feels helpless to do anything about it.

    If you’ll also look down the thread, you presumptuous sack of shit, you’ll see that I mentioned Marilyn Chambers and how she said that she did porn because she liked sex. I made no fucking judgments about her for that–and I think it’s fine for her to feel that way, if that’s what rocked her world.

    I don’t have a problem with anyone who wants to be in porn and going for it. As long as it’s of their own choice, have at it. It’s not my life. So shove that presumptuous lie up your pompous ass.

  451. 451
    opposablethumbs

    Sadly (for hir, anyway), Infinite123Lifer is so incoherent that it’s only possible to get the vaguest impression of what xe may – possibly – be on about. It would take a very long wall of text to do a thorough job of picking out what hir argument might, just might be intended to be – so that one could then proceed to refute it – and my impression so far is that it’s not really worth the bother.
    .

    I love me some joyful m/m porn. What I enjoy is made for free and shared for the pleasure of it, and directly involves no actual human beings at all apart from those who write (or draw) it and those who read it (or look at the drawings). I cherish the hope that this is about as non-exploitative as it gets.

  452. 452
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Caine:

    -Much appreciated.

    Aquaria:

    -My apologies. Please continue. :)

    Tony

  453. 453
    Aquaria

    I feel much the same you do about this poster, but I think perhaps phrases and terms like “shit for brains”, “turnip with legs”, and “moron” might be counter productive. I’m not sure what PZ’s rules for posting are, but if the goal is to get INFINITIVE123LIFER to actually read what we’ve posted, as well as actually think things through, then lobbying insults may not be the best route to go.

    Substance matters more here than style, and this is a bar, not your granny’s garden club. You can swill your beer here and cuss out people who shit a steaming pile of stupid into the rhetorical punchbowl. It’s what we call fun.

    There’s a whole big internet out there where you and Infiniteshitbrickofstupid can talk in hushed tones with your pinkies raised to make it easier to clutch your pearls. This ain’t it.

    Get used to that idea, or fuck right off. :) <===Observe the smile. I'm using my sweetest voice and my smile with the dimples. How can you take offense to that?

  454. 454
    Tethys

    Jose

    So would it be okay with you if all the mainstream porn industry was completely dismantled so that those independent underground festivals were all there was?

    You didn’t read the thread before posting did you? If you had you would understand that the problem with much mainstream porn is that it depicts degrading women as normal sexual behavior.

    If you said yes and the whole mainstream porn industry is out of the picture, let’s have a look at what remains. I’ve read Jen’s descriptions of okay porn. Most of it involves cumshots, violence and fakery. The pornographic elements seem pretty much the same as in mainstream porn. The main difference seems to be that these independent submissions have a funny plot whereas the mainstream has little or no plot.

    Jens post is a review of amateur porn films. I count one mention of cum shots, violence is catagorized as kink, and I have no idea what you mean by fakery.

    The main difference is not plot lines. It is that sex is depicted as a mutually pleasurable activity. The plot of mainstream porn is mostly penis glorification with (at best) no depiction of what women actually find pleasurable.

  455. 455
    Aquaria

    I was posting while you were, sunny, and you ended up being reasonable, so I’m sorry I tore your head off. The conversation can get, uh, lively here. I’m one of the more passionate and intense posters here, plus I’m ex-military. I tend to be very blunt.

    Yeah. That’s the word.

  456. 456
    Inaji

    Aquaria:

    Observe the smile. I’m using my sweetest voice and my smile with the dimples.

    You are being unusually sweet…and that smile! Sniny, sniny fangs.

  457. 457
    'Tis Himself

    Observe the smile. I’m using my sweetest voice and my smile with the dimples.

    You’re not playing nicely at all. ;-þ

  458. 458
    Friendly

    Porn name (first pet/first street): Harold Morgantown. “They call me ‘Uptown’ Harry Morgantown…”

    OK video porn: As I’ve said before, the owner and management of abbywinters.com have been accused of exploitation and other uncool things, so they might not be the absolute best site to recommend. But the women appearing there seem to genuinely enjoy themselves, the scenes are unscripted, and the forums (in which many of the women themselves participate, some even after they no longer appear in new material for the site) are lively and interesting.

    OK written porn: A lot of the erotica posted to storiesonline.net is depressingly formulaic or downright bad. But really good stories (especially in the longer serial format) are posted often enough to keep me coming back. Lubrican’s nineteen-book “Making of a Gigolo” series, for example, while possibly not entirely believable in all of its aspects, is one of my all-time favorites.

    As for the first question in the OP: I don’t think performing in pornography should diminish one’s credibility in the public eye except in a couple of cases I can think of:

    (a) One makes a habit of performing in material that sends bad health messages (“promiscuity is cool but condoms are stupid”) or seems to incite sexual violence (victim character behaves in a way that “asks for it”, protagonist rapes victim, victim protests at first but then “comes around”). How serious is the person about public service if they’re not serious about public health or safety?

    (b) One is a producer (yes, I know, not really a “performer”, but this occurred to me) of “hidden camera” videos and swears that the footage is truly of “real” people filmed in “real” public restrooms, hotel bedrooms, etc. If the claim is true, the person is a criminal. If the claim is false, at best they are a disingenuous carny in the pre-WWE Vince McMahon mold; at worst they are committing fraud. In neither eventuality would I feel good about voting for them.

    Second question in the OP: A “career atheist” would have a harder time being elected. Porn stars just made a few bad choices along the way and “they can change.” Atheists, as everyone knows, are all about plotting the downfall of society; how could we possibly ever help to preserve or build it?

  459. 459
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Substance matters more here than style, and this is a bar, not your granny’s garden club.

    Hey! Some of us have grandmothers who can and will stand up to you cuss word for cuss word.

    (I had to stand up for grandmothers.)

  460. 460
    Dhorvath, OM

    Yeah, my granny was not too bad at bringing the vulgar to life, but my son’s granny, well let’s just say she exceeded her mother.

  461. 461
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    I would like to add to my hypothetical advice for my spawnlings about working in porn: Do not ever work with anyone who uses the word “spooge.”

  462. 462
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    *snicker*

  463. 463
    Inaji

    Mattir:

    I would like to add to my hypothetical advice for my spawnlings about working in porn: Do not ever work with anyone who uses the word “spooge.”

    Now that is sound advice.

  464. 464
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    DaughterSpawn just observed that “spooge” or “splooge” are about as sexy and sensible as “vajayjay” or “vajazzle.” I love my kids.

  465. 465
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Never understood the trend of vajayjay. And the less said about “vajazzle”, the better.

  466. 466
    Tethys

    Vajazzle? I’ve never heard the term, but it does have the small advantage of having a positive connotation.

    I’m curious what other people think of cum shots? I once ended a relationship after clueless dude informed me that “Guys coming on womens face is merely a way of marking their territory.”

    Leaving aside the “territory” issue, I have a hard time seeing coming in someones face as anything other than degrading.
    (unless they are into that sort of thing)

    Am I being prudish? Or would most women consider that more degrading than erotic?

  467. 467
    Inaji

    Mattir:

    “vajayjay” or “vajazzle.”

    Ugh. On another forum, in another universe, all that, I once went off on an idiot using “vajayjay” until he was scorched through. That crap sounds like something a developmentally delayed two year old came up with. Just what is so awful about vagina or vulva?

    People who think “vajayjay” is somehow better reminds me of all the ridiculous parents out there who make up euphemisms for their daughters “naughty bits” or teach them to refer to their vagina as butterfly or flower.

  468. 468
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Marking their territory?

    Seriously?

    What? The territory is not suppose to wash her face?

    No, you are not a prude just because you dumped an ex because he expected you to act like a stereotyped woman in a porn.

    Beside, it seems to me that the act of pulling out and coming on the woman was to show that he is climaxing. Because the male climax is the point of the show.

  469. 469
    Inaji

    Tethys:

    Am I being prudish? Or would most women consider that more degrading than erotic?

    I don’t think you’re being prudish, it’s simply a matter of what turns a person on. I know women and men who do find that sort of thing erotic, while I don’t. For one thing, I prefer lesbian porn and when it comes to hetro porn, eh, I don’t find semen all that exciting.

  470. 470
    The Ys

    I once ended a relationship after clueless dude informed me that “Guys coming on womens face is merely a way of marking their territory.”

    I think it’s incredibly degrading, Tethys. At least when animals mark their territory, their scent lingers for a while and other animals can smell it. When a man does it to a woman, who knows it happened except her? It’s intended to demonstrate superiority solely to the person on the receiving end and no one else. The mindset behind that is abusive.

  471. 471
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Tethys,
    Vajazzling is the fine art of gluing rhinestones and other small gems to your vulva. FYI.

    And yes, I’m certain you needed to know that.

  472. 472
    The Ys

    Wow, that was horrible and I should’ve thought my comment through a bit better before posting.

    I think marking another person as “territory” is rather horrific on its own merits. We don’t own people.

  473. 473
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    People who think “vajayjay” is somehow better reminds me of all the ridiculous parents out there who make up euphemisms for their daughters “naughty bits” or teach them to refer to their vagina as butterfly or flower.

    The extra creepy song, Butterfly Kisses becomes extremely extra creepy in this light.

    *shudders*

  474. 474
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    @Tethys – different people like different stuff. I, for one, cannot understand why anyone sleeps with conservative Republican Christians…

  475. 475
    Dhorvath, OM

    Tethys,
    I would say that at least for me, it depends. Sex comes with many a mess and they can be exciting if shared with an enthusiastic party, on the other hand they can be event killers if the sharing extends beyond where expected, and are certainly relationship death when known boundaries are crossed intentionally. So as with most things naked and slippery, the first rule is not to put anything, anywhere, unless you have discussed it ahead of time and to err on the side of no when someone seems uninterested. Sex that isn’t fun for all parties involved is not something to be excited about, but instead to be avoided.

  476. 476
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Esteleth, like I said; the less said, the better.

  477. 477
    Travis

    Tethys,
    I like cumshots, but I am not sure I would consider it in any way “marking my territory”. If it is done because of that then I think you are doing it wrong. But I am fairly kinky, and in the bedroom, or the alley, or well you get the picture, I enjoy aspects of objectification, dominations and all sorts of other things. But it is always consensual and my partners have been into it.

  478. 478
    Inaji

    Esteleth, while I generally don’t have much to say about ‘vajazzling’ which is positive, I found myself utterly fascinated with one woman’s labia that was in the Great Wall of Vagina – she had multiple piercings (rings) and it looked amazingly tentacular in the cast. Okay, that was a serious derail.

  479. 479
    Inaji

    Travis:

    I enjoy aspects of objectification, dominations and all sorts of other things. But it is always consensual and my partners have been into it.

    Well, that’s all the difference, isn’t it? Someone who is an asshole enough to consider an act as ‘marking territory’ isn’t someone who is concerned with enthusiastic consensual acts.

    I’m into a fair amount of kink and BDSM myself, and if there isn’t enthusiastic consent all the way around, it’s not right and it’s not healthy.

  480. 480
    GravityIsJustATheory

    The “How to get your pornstar name” rule I heard was “name of first pet” followed by “mother’s maiden name”.

    Which I later realized was exactly what someone one want to know if they were trying to get into your bank account.

    I wonder if that was the intention all along, or am I just being paranoid?

  481. 481
    Travis

    Caine,
    I agree, I think that is the big difference. My fantasies might include all sorts of terrible things but these creepy, awful people that really view people as their object, or something to be taken really scare me.

  482. 482
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    The “How to get your pornstar name” rule I heard was “name of first pet” followed by “mother’s maiden name”.

    Bozo Rabb?

    uh

  483. 483
    Tethys

    Thanks for the feedback. I even appreciate the definition of vajazzle.

    No guilt at all on my part. The mere fact that he considered women to be territory that needed marking was a deal-breaker.

    Jose’s post mischaracterizing Jen’s Hump review was puzzling. Jen only mentions it once, so it lead to an entire cum shot tangent in my mind.

    I can certainly find a way to make a cum shot erotic for both parties. Coming in my face? I’m bothered by the underlying psychological connotations of the act.

  484. 484
    Inaji

    Gravity:

    “name of first pet” followed by “mother’s maiden name”.

    Nope. Name of first pet and name of first street lived on. I would be Brandy Sycamore.

    Travis:

    My fantasies might include all sorts of terrible things

    The difference between you and an asshole being that you’re aware that it’s fantasy and that it’s crucial that fantasy be shared with a partner[s].

  485. 485
    Travis

    Nope. Name of first pet and name of first street lived on. I would be Brandy Sycamore.

    this is the way I heard it. Brutus Perley is my name. I like the Brutus part but not a fan of the overall name.

  486. 486
    Pteryxx

    @Tethys: Can’t speak for anyone else here obviously, but when a partner of mine has come onto MY face, it’s usually because I was having fun and didn’t dodge fast enough. (And once because I was laughing too hard. Honestly!)

    It’s got to have something to do with sex, or the bodies or fluids involved, being seen as dirty and nasty things that no decent person could ever enjoy. Maybe with some homophobia thrown in there (Eww, maleness!) Makes no sense at all to me. It’s even white, for petes sake!

  487. 487
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    when a partner of mine has come onto MY face, it’s usually because I was having fun and didn’t dodge fast enough. (And once because I was laughing too hard. Honestly!)

    Which is fine, no one said any different. Your partner, unlike Tethys’s, didn’t do it and say “hey, I’m just marking my territory”. It’s really not about the semen as much as it is about the attitude behind the ejaculate.

  488. 488
    Inaji

    Travis:

    Brutus Perley is my name. I like the Brutus part but not a fan of the overall name.

    For porn purposes, I’d change it to Brutus Pearl. That’s got great sound.

  489. 489
    Tethys

    Pteryxx,

    And once because I was laughing too hard. Honestly!

    I find partners who are capable of laughing silly sex to be ideal.
    I’ve also failed to get out of way in time, and a good time was had by all concerned.

    I’ve also run into a few men who’s entire idea of what sex is comes from mainstream porn. I find it very disturbing.

  490. 490
    'Tis Himself

    Name of first pet and name of first street lived on.

    Nope, sorry, ain’t going to be Whiskers Ninth.

  491. 491
    Pteryxx

    It’s really not about the semen as much as it is about the attitude behind the ejaculate.

    No, I agree completely. If someone demanded it, with the worshipful pose and all, I’d be creeped right out. I don’t even think I could do it to someone who was asking to be degraded as a kink. That’s part of why I mentioned my viewpoint (so to speak), because I’ve had to convince partners that yes, I really don’t mind getting ejaculate on my face and no I don’t find it inherently degrading. (Which is actually WHY I was laughing so hard that one time. “You should get out of the way now…” “What? Why would I do that? And waste all my hard work?”)

  492. 492
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Never understood the whole cum on your partners face. I feel its “popularity” is completely driven by the over produced fakey porn out there. Could be completely wrong.

    Just don’t get it. YMMV

  493. 493
    Nitric Acidette

    @409 “Just once, I want to do something that would be absolutely unallowed by all those fucking penguins.”

    Those who fuck penguins probably don’t have a long list of disallowed activities.

  494. 494
    Inaji

    Nitric Acidette, how’s the female persona workin’ out for you?

  495. 495
    Nitric Acidette

    Haven’t had time to do much with it yet, Caine. Thank you for asking.

    As far as “facials” go, I think likening them to a dog marking its territory makes them even more degrading than they already are.

  496. 496
    Inaji

    Nitric Acidette:

    As far as “facials” go, I think likening them to a dog marking its territory makes them even more degrading than they already are.

    Oh, I agree with that. However, as we’ve seen with Pteryxx’s posts and others, it can be happy fun for people. I do think it all comes down to 1) the attitude behind the ejaculate and 2)personal taste.

    When it comes to commercial porn, I think there is waaaay too much focus on the moneyshot, perhaps because it gives the consumer a sense of power, which is in itself kind of disturbing, because that attitude tends to demean whoever is the one getting shot.

  497. 497
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Name of first pet and name of first street lived on.

    I would be a terrible porn star. Schotzche New South is a bit much.

    Facials:
    Never gotten one. But then, I don’t sleep with men. As far as I’m concerned, if it’s about fun, then why not? Not my thing, but whatever. If it’s about “territory marking” or something like that and isn’t part of a negotiated and agreed-upon BDSM thing, then I find it problematic.

  498. 498
    julian

    Fun thing (ok something I’ve found myself doing) to do during the cum shot scene; look for a timing source and try to guess how much they had to edit out. If no timing source is present guesstimate using the bored expression on the woman’s face before and the relief on it after as reference points.

    Another fun game; for those rare moments when the guy’s face is actually on screen, look for disappointment on his face because despite being nose deep in his partner for the shot, she’s more interested in joking with the guy behind the camera. If her conversation isn’t fully edited out look for shifts in how hard he grinds his face into her muff.

  499. 499
    SallyStrange

    As far as “facials” go, I think likening them to a dog marking its territory makes them even more degrading than they already are.

    Yeah; thanks, I have enjoyed a facial or three and I don’t think of myself as a dog or being degraded. Mayhap it has something to do with the thrill of “marking” your partner as “yours,” but whatever. Bodily secretions, we humans get kind of funny about them. I’ve “marked” my lovers in various ways as well. This just gets back to the whole question of, well, are choices that are influenced by rape culture ever truly freely made choices? I mean, my boyfriend has watched a lot of porn in his lifetime, some of no doubt quite problematic, and his enjoyment of seeing his ejaculate on his lover’s face is probably influenced by that exposure. Yes, it’s an act of domination. Guess what? I don’t identify as being part of the BDSM community, but just knowing that that is an option has given me the opportunity to enjoy the fact that I like being dominated by my lover, and not feel ashamed about it.

    As for ad hominum… Dude, yes, I know you’re strange gods. I don’t understand why you assume that I already know your stance on porn. Did we talk about it? We’ve talked about many things but I don’t recall specifically reading your own thoughts on pornography. Sorry if I appear to be giving offense, but your initial approach was just so coy and roundabout, it seemed odd.

  500. 500
    Nitric Acid

    [quote]Yeah; thanks, I have enjoyed a facial or three and I don’t think of myself as a dog or being degraded.[/quote]
    Sorry- if you’re okay with receiving them, then enjoy. I just don’t like seeing them in porn because they strike me as degrading. If I was actually with a woman who liked them, I’d probably change my mind.

    And it was Tethys’ ex who likened them to marking territory. I was remarking on the comparison, not making it.

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