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Oct 15 2011

Episode CCLXI: Saved!

Ooops, traveling, the thread filled up. Here’s something quick to tide you over.

(Episode CCLX: Paleontologists are rock stars.)

976 comments

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  1. 501
    Rey Fox

    We better stop spreading feminism before it becomes cool to be feminist and any asshole can start calling himself one.

    I mean, look what happened to “comedian”.

  2. 502
    Algernon

    Oh fucknuts. I just got my wardrobe sorted for next week, I spent all day in the sun at the fair, I’m kicking back with a glass of port and some shitass is murking up the pool in here.

    Bleh…

  3. 503
    ChasCPeterson

    false positive, assholes.

  4. 504
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Weird thought, lostinlace = SS?

  5. 505
    Algernon

    How many misogynists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    50. 49 to whine about how light bulbs never went out before women were allowed to change them and one to order a post-feminist to do it but only if she shows her boobs first.

  6. 506
    Algernon

    If you’re thinking that’s 51 people, you don’t get it.

  7. 507
    Ray, rude-ass yankee

    Damn, it’s bed time. I normally have off tomorrow, but I had to swap days around this week to accommodate a Boy Scout event for my oldest son. I’ve got to work in the morning, so I wish y’all Goof night!

  8. 508
    Muse (evidentially temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Chas, lostinlace a friend of yours?

  9. 509
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    Operation Rhinebeck was fantastic, or at least it was fantastic about half an hour after we arrived, when the delusion that I was incapable of having conversations with the Horde finally wore off…

    Sili noted in the program that there was a drop spindling contest and got Jules to persuade me to enter. I thought it was a highly goofy idea, but when I got there, discovered all this adrenalin and competitive spirit making spinning stressful for the first time. To my astonishment, I came in second, with 32 yards of yarn in 15 minutes. I celebrated by buying a Rotary Sheep Reducer from a nice gentleman in a kilt.

    We forgot to order the takeout calamari at dinner and thus missed the opportunity for King Walton to administer communion to his kneeling subjects. We swapped shoes, leather skirts, silk scarves, and books. DDMFM gave oniongirl a book about a little girl penguin who just wants to sparkle and can’t quite manage it until a big male whale gets her to slide down his back(she shakes the water off her feathers and it makes sparkles). We did wonderfully dramatic readings of a pamphlet of advice for Catholic men wishing to kick their pron habit.*

    Jack C shared his homebrew, we assimilated another Spawn into the Dissoluteens of Pharyngula™, all the women and girls fawned over oniongirl, our organizationallesbian goddess, and we speculated as to several possible Horde activities, including corset-making-day, visits to the beach, Reason Rally, and of course, Rhinebeck 2012. (There had BETTER not be a Spokesgay Sleepover that weekend – I’m still peeved that I had to choose.)

    Also, for some strange reason, there were kangaroos on display. No idea why.

    *Step 3 – talk to your priest so he can take your problem in hand. Step 12 – disclose your addiction to your wife. Good thing those priorities are there – in between are instructions for memorizing bible verses, festooning oneself with religious paraphernalia, and using a rubber band on the wrist to develop an association between pain and naughty thoughts.

  10. 510
    Algernon

    Let’s listen to music!

  11. 511
    Algernon

    I forgot what you do to keep videos from embedding :(

    I have a sun headache too… I hate that.

  12. 512
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    *is jealous*

  13. 513
    Algernon

    Sounds like Rhinebeck was a blast! Walton didn’t tell me he was the bean king this year :P

  14. 514
    Muse (evidentially temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Algernon if I recall correctly it’s <a href=”link text here”> url </a>

  15. 515
    SallyStrange

    What kind of music? I’m feeling Talib Kweli right now, since he appeared and spoke and did some impromptu rapping at Occupy Wall St.

    Talib at #OWS: article and video

    Talib Kweli classic: “Get By”

  16. 516
    Muse (evidentially temptress of Pharyngula women)

    There are pictures of Walton in his crown. It was sort of epic, and he was astoundingly good-natured about it.

  17. 517
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Chas did you see this photo of Bobby?

    on his b-day

  18. 518
    Algernon

    Any kind of music!

    Oh ok, I couldn’t remember if posting it as a link would keep it from embedding or not and didn’t want to be wrong.

    I think this is a good cover of Cohen’s Stories of the Street

  19. 519
    Walton

    *Step 3 – talk to your priest so he can take your problem in hand. Step 12 – disclose your addiction to your wife. Good thing those priorities are there – in between are instructions for memorizing bible verses, festooning oneself with religious paraphernalia, and using a rubber band on the wrist to develop an association between pain and naughty thoughts.

    Don’t forget the importance of praying to St Joseph, praying to the Virgin Mary, praying to St Michael the Archangel, praying some more, wearing a crucifix at all times, sprinkling holy water around one’s hotel room, etc. It was also suggested that one should have an “accountability partner” to help one cure one’s porn addiction, and that one should set up computer software to email said “accountability partner” with all the details when one visits “questionable websites”.

    (The author didn’t suggest any particular passages of scripture to memorize, but I suspect he wasn’t thinking of the Song of Songs. Or Ezekiel 23:20. One might be safer with some of the Pauline epistles, perhaps.)

  20. 520
    Jules

    cicely! *running tackling hugging*

    I’m planning to return to Skepticon this year. I hope to see you again.

    I’m jealous of the slumber partiers. But I got one question: did you have a murphy bed? Because triskelethecat, Katherine, and I did.

    Also, we played Set.

  21. 521
    Algernon

    Oh I botched it.

    better?

  22. 522
    chigau (違う)

    NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT JEALOUS. not. not. not.
    Can we do a “Rhinebeck” in Canada?

  23. 523
    Walton

    And there are, indeed, some slightly deranged-looking pictures of me in my crown. Including one in which I’m conferring a knighthood on Sili.

  24. 524
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    One might be safer with some of the Pauline epistles, perhaps.

    With or without the insertions?

    G’night.

  25. 525
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Walton, you sure they shouldn’t read the sexy passages in the Song of Solomon? I mean it could be like a replacement.

    Wow, I seem to be talkative on thread. Perhaps it’s the fault of Rhinebeck.

  26. 526
    Algernon

    Including one in which I’m conferring a knighthood on Sili.

    Ok. Now I’m jealous.

  27. 527
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    chigau, we had a Canadian contingent. I know there are several of the Canadians we’d like to grab next year.

  28. 528
    chigau (違う)

    My favorite saint has always been Jude.
    The patron saint of “hopeless cases”.
    gotta love him

  29. 529
    SallyStrange

    There WAS a murphy bed! Josh slept in it. Totes awesome.

    Talib is awesome. Gotta love a rapper who references Normal Mailer, Star Wars, and the Beatles in one song–which is about social justice.

    Algernon–yes, that is nice.

  30. 530
    Algernon

    Oooh I like that SallyStrange!

  31. 531
    SallyStrange

    Music…

    Here’s Toubab Krewe performing live.

    They’re white guys doing afro-pop… well. Believe it or not. They all studied in west Africa (Senegal, I think), and that’s also where they picked up the name–apparently “toubab” means “foreigner/white guy” so little kids would follow them around shouting “Hey, toubab!” at them all the time.

    I only know about them because one of the players is from Vermont. They’re based in Asheville, NC, though–as evidenced in the title of this song (from the album, not live).

  32. 532
    chigau (違う)

    Muse
    I picture a gathering within the territorial boundaries of the Dominion-of-Canada™.
    I don’t like to go to the USofA.
    It’s scary.

  33. 533
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Toubab Krewe is good. They come through Charleston occasionally.

    SPOILER:
    Good scene in a church on The Walking Dead. Love the large JC crucifix with JC looking about as Zombie like as the Zombies.

  34. 534
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    In addition to assimilating the Spawn into the Disoluteens, we also assimilated a Spouse – jessa brought her somewhat-dubious-of-the-whole-idea-of-weird-internet-friends husband, and he had a great time. Even Mr. M, who cautioned me to consider the risk involved in meeting strange men from the internet (aka Bill Dauphin) a year ago has gotten sufficiently used to the idea that he comes to Horde gatherings from time to time.

    On a purely personal note, I am very grateful for the Horde and the willingness of some of them to meet in person. We really don’t have extended family, but both Spawns have said that gatherings with the Horde feel like extended family. (For the record, I have it on good authority from both of them that nigelthebold is one of the coolest people on the planet.)

  35. 535
    rorschach

    Back “home” now. Had a good time, more to come.

    It’s the #1 most active thread over on ScienceBlogs.

    Abbie must be so proud.

    where has SGBM been?

    He always does that tho, doesn’t he. Burns himself out over a few weeks here, then disappears for some time, until the batteries are recharged.

    Now to catching up. I’m thinking open letter to NatGeo.

  36. 536
    Walton

    Walton, you sure they shouldn’t read the sexy passages in the Song of Solomon? I mean it could be like a replacement.

    Only if they think very, very hard about holy and pure things while reading. (I’ll leave the definition of “holy” and “pure” as an exercise for the reader.) And snap their wristbands if they find themselves liking it too much.

    ====

    Including one in which I’m conferring a knighthood on Sili.

    Ok. Now I’m jealous.

    *giggles* Don’t worry. You too can be honoured with a title of nobility.

    ====

    Like Algernon, I was listening to some Leonard Cohen earlier this evening. He is awesome.

    However, on a bizarre impulse, I’ve now skipped to the opposite end of the spectrum of musical quality, and just listened to William Shatner’s infamous 1967 cover of “Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds”. Now that’s a bad song. But in a good way.

  37. 537
    chigau (違う)

    not jealous. not jealous. not.

  38. 538
    SallyStrange

    You likee the rap music, Algernon?

    Here’s another of my fave Talib Kweli songs. Wish I could find a better quality video, because the visual effects are beautiful, but that’ll have to do.

    Someone linked me to the Yeah Yeah Yeahs lately, and I fell in love with the song Phenomena.

  39. 539
    SallyStrange

    We should have a Montreal meetup (any excuse to go to Montreal).

  40. 540
    Walton

    (For the record, I have it on good authority from both of them that nigelthebold is one of the coolest people on the planet.)

    Of course he is. What else would one expect from the last surviving lineal descendant of the House of theBold, onetime ruling family of the Alaskan Empire?

    Oh yes. I should have remembered. The old family feud dates back to 1647, when your remote ancestor, His Royal Highness Nigel I, Grand Duke of Alaska (1611-1692), fought a duel with Freiherr Augustus Emmanuel Gerhardt Franz Josef Wilhelm von Biscuit-Barrel (1615-1685) over a disputed plate of bacon. Reportedly, the duel ended in a draw, as both combatants managed to shoot themselves in the foot. In the meantime, a stray dog (later itself elevated to the nobility as Fido, Margrave of Anchorage and Count of Wasilla) ran away with the bacon.

    As we were later reminded by blf, the demise of the Alaskan Empire may have been somewhat embellished by later historians.

    It wasn’t the Martians, there wasn’t an invasion, the Empire consisted of a igloo on an iceberg, and all that happened is it melted. And sank.

    So they built another one. It also melted. And sank.

    So they built a third one. It melted. And ran aground. And then sank.

    So they built a fourth one. And got eaten by polar bears.

    Indeed. After the fourth Great Melting of 1854, His Imperial Majesty Nigel VI, the last Emperor of Alaska (who, thanks to the scarce pool of eligible royal princesses in Alaska, was so inbred that he had six noses and only one arm) went out hunting for a polar bear named Knut, who had, reportedly, eaten a barrel of fish which was intended for the coronation banquet. Unfortunately, His Majesty was not a great huntsman (the extra noses got in the way of his field of vision) and, after inadvertently shooting himself in his remaining arm, he was reportedly eaten by Knut’s younger sister, whose name is not recorded. A plaque near the old family seat at Nome commemorates the sad demise of the Alaskan monarchy.

  41. 541
    Jules

    Murphy beds ate Teh Cool.

    I will totally do a Montreal meetup. Never been, but certain Rhinebeckers cam attest to my love of doing a horrible French accent. It doesn’t translate in text, or I’d demonstrate.

    Damn phone. It’s just not a great device for TET commenting. By the time I peck out one response, I’ve forgotten what else I wanted to comment on. And scrolling up is a pain. One of these days (fays) I might do a post (posy [pisu]) in which I’ve disabled autocorrect.

  42. 542
    Rey Fox

    …they’re making HEADLINES!

  43. 543
    ibyea

    @Mattir
    Hmm… I would like to be on the Horde’s meeting sometimes too. I wonder what you guys are like in real life. :)

  44. 544
    Rey Fox

    I wonder what you guys are like in real life. :)

    As those on Facebook already know, I am an owl.

  45. 545
    ibyea

    @Rey Fox
    I know this will sound like sacrilege, but I don’t use facebook. Now I am the uncoolest guy in this thread, aren’t I? :)

  46. 546
    Aratina Cage

    the last surviving lineal descendant of the House of theBold, onetime ruling family of the Alaskan Empire?

    Amusing story. :) I used to be friends with the real Empress of All Alaska (not the current titleholder, though).

  47. 547
    First Approximation, Shevek

    . (For the record, I have it on good authority from both of them that nigelthebold is one of the coolest people on the planet.)

    Well, I was in the Crocoduck suite with him and have to say they are correct.

    Including one in which I’m conferring a knighthood on Sili.

    With a butter knife.

  48. 548
    SteveV

    Sailor: Not all bagpipes are equal

  49. 549
    rorschach

    I have written a post supporting SC’s notion that the escalation allowed to go on on ERV wrt Ophelia Benson has to stop.
    (SC, I tried to comment on your blog, but it still not lend itself to commenting easily)

  50. 550
    Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments

    It’s A Long Way To The Top (If You Wanna Bagpipe)

  51. 551
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good morning
    Sounds like you had tons of fun in Rhinebeck

    Mattir
    That machine is wonderful

    kristinc
    Three cheers for dry pants

    musical jokes
    (Via Mr., who can play a radio)
    Q: What’s the difference between a violin and a piano?
    A: The piano burns much longer

  52. 552
    Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments

    A butter knife?

    Why not a paper knife?

    Now follow this lack of logic.

  53. 553
    SallyStrange

    Q: Why are violins smaller than violas?

    A: They’re not, actually; violinists’ heads are bigger.

  54. 554
    Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments

    R U Experienced-Devo

  55. 555
    Therrin

    Relative Ogvorbis, OM,

    How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb?
    1…5…1… (1…4…5…5…1)

    <3

    And, to top it off, you harshed my mellow before I could get into my collectoin of conductor jokes.

    If it involves an electric chair, allow me to pre-emptively cover my face with my palm.

  56. 556
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Also, at Rhinebeck, I wore a skirt to dinner! (thanks to triskelethecat for it btw, it’s an awesome skirt!!! I think flouncy is the correct adjective but correct me if I’m wrong)

    After the initial terrifying moment of coming out from the bathroom in skirt, heels, and makeup, I spent the next thirty minutes or so in sheer terror before being completely relaxed at dinner.

    (Wups, work!)

  57. 557
    Tomaz79

    Thanks for the welcome, all.

    Sailor

    I thought the song is about the state, is there a joke in there that I’m missing? :)

    Sally

    In school I played the piano, now I play bass guitar. I see there are many musicians here, very nice.

    Since we’re sharing YT videos – I recently discovered this amazing swedish trio called Dirty Loops that does kick-ass fusion covers of pop hits. Their skill level is amazing, the singer is like a white Stevie Wonder and the bass player just blows me away (slight man-crush, have to admit). Here’s their version of Lady GaGa’s Just Dance. Their motto is “Today’s hits the way they should sound!” Couldn’t agree more!

  58. 558
    Beatrice

    First day working. Yay! It’s only temporary and doesn’t really have all that much to do with my degree (or anything, really), but it’s some money until I get a real job.

    And no, I’m not slacking. It’s my lunch break. And here I am. Maybe I should worry about a Pharyngula addicton. Any treatments available?

  59. 559
    John Morales

    Katherine,

    Also, at Rhinebeck, I wore a skirt to dinner!

    :)

    Debutante!

  60. 560
    poopsicle

    Wow, this place reminds me of crazy baptist summer camp. Hellfire, self-righteousness, just no jesus. Aweful. Secularism is dead. Thanks PZ. No wonder the xtians think atheists are stupid – the defense rests.

  61. 561
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    libertarian: “there is no opt out with a tax.”

    me: Yes there is: leave society and live on your own as a hunter-gatherer in the wild, only using what you can find or make with your own efforts.

    If you want to benefit from being a member of society, you need to pay your share so others can benefit. Once again, the world does not revolve around you. Grow up and pay your goddamn taxes =/

    other libertarian: Say you had a factory to make say – computers. Now say there was no one owner. It was magically worker owned as a co-op. Decisions need to made. How do you do that? Allow everyone a chance to speak? Then take a vote? But what if Keith didn’t like what majority wanted? Then what? Should Keith go make his own computer factory? Or will he go live in the woods in the house he made by himself and stop communicating on social media about doing everything autonomously without anyone ever being told what to do, or having rules, or paying taxes…

    me: [other libertarian], your scarecrow is on fire.

    This is getting rather easy, actually =/

  62. 562
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “No wonder the xtians think atheists are stupid – the defense rests.”

    Spoken by a guy calling himself “poopsicle”.

    Sir, there is a certain aphorism regarding the use of conglomerated mineraloids as ballistic weaponry while residing in a domicile constructed of transparent silica. Perhaps you should heed it.

  63. 563
    John Morales

    Setár:

    Yes there is: leave society and live on your own as a hunter-gatherer in the wild, only using what you can find or make with your own efforts.

    I think that every last bit of land on the planet is already owned, wild bits included.

    (They’d be violating the owner’s rights to their property unless they had permission for to be there and paid whatever compensation the owner desired for the privilege)

  64. 564
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Did anyone else understand where poopsicle (9-year old humor?) was coming from? That comment seemed largely out of place, since most of us were talking about how awesome everyone else was?

  65. 565
    SteveV

    Pharyngula addicton. Any treatments available?

    None.
    Abandon Hope all ye Who Enter Here

  66. 566
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Haven’t caught up but apparently Zachary Quinto has come out.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/gossip/2011/10/zachary-quinto-gay-zachary-quinto-comes-out.html

  67. 567
  68. 568
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Audley:

    Yes, I saw that!

    Zach Quinto is very pretty…

  69. 569
    opposablethumbs

    I suppose poopsicle a) didn’t get that this is TET, b) assumed that somebody must be slagging off somebody else somewhere, c) just wanted to fling some of its own excrement about a bit, in the hope that it might stick somewhere (hint: the only place it’s sticking is to your fingers, poopsicle. Better learn to wash your hands and use a knife and fork before you eat anything, m’kay?).

  70. 570
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    beatrice
    Congratulations to your “well it brings home money” job anyway

    It was magically worker owned as a co-op

    Well, it’s not as if such things didn’t exist out there in the world.

    . Decisions need to made. How do you do that? Allow everyone a chance to speak? Then take a vote?

    Your libertarian cupcake once again betrays their absolute economic ignorance. Do they have any idea how corporations work? With anual assemblies, where everybody who owns a share is allowed to speak and to vote?

    Benjamin
    I don’t like the “women are mysterious and obviously at fault whenever men don’t understand them” trope in that comic.
    And to add to that: mythunderstandings: It’s not that they don’t understand the answer, it’s that they don’t like it.

  71. 571
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “And to add to that: mythunderstandings: It’s not that they don’t understand the answer, it’s that they don’t like it.”

    Speaking as one of “them”: Bullshit.

  72. 572
    Carlie

    Wow, this place reminds me of crazy baptist summer camp.

    I have been to many a crazy Baptist summer camp. You, sir, are no valid comparer of crazy Baptist summer camps.

    Katherine looked stunning in the skirt, by the way.

    Mattir, how did I miss that you got second in the contest!? Awesome.

    I am ashamed that I didn’t even think of the possibility of it appearing badly until I saw the comment about how well Walton took his crowning, but it was definitely bestowed in all manner of love, not jest.

  73. 573
    Algernon

    Having said “no” clearly and had it ignored, or had a person go after me at work spreading rumors about me sleeping with people and generally being a complete psycho about it I would never say “fuck off” because I can’t *know* that you’re grown up enough to handle rejection without lashing out at me and if I gave every person that avenue of attack I might not be alive anymore or have a career. I do say “no” though, and I’m amazed how often the very people who whine and whine and whine that women don’t will turn around and whine and whine and whine when you do. Maybe if they could correctly interpret things like crossed arms, refusing to make eye contact, and trying to be far away from them, never calling or initiating any contact, and monosyllabic responses to questions as signs of disinterest it would be easier.

    Seriously.

    Women, they’re so fucking hard to understand. All of them. Every last one… all the same.

    Boo hoo fucking hoooooooooo!

  74. 574
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “I would never say “fuck off” because I can’t *know* that you’re grown up enough to handle rejection without lashing out at me ”

    So you intentionally string them along?

    “I do say “no” though, and I’m amazed how often the very people who whine and whine and whine that women don’t will turn around and whine and whine and whine when you do.”

    Way to stereotype. Here’s your porcupine.

  75. 575
    Algernon

    Yes, I intentionally string them along because “no” apparently isn’t clear enough.

    Here Ben, FUCK OFF. Seriously, and hurry up too.

  76. 576
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Also, why is it bad when a man explains to a woman what a woman should be experiencing, but good when a woman explains to a man what a man should be experiencing?

  77. 577
    Algernon

    Yeah, Ben because talking about what actual people in my actual life have done is much more a stereotype than you and your whining about all women.

    Repeat: fuck off. You knew you were posting that here, and you knew you wanted to get on your little tear about women. Fuck you. I’m sick of it. Everyone may be willing to put up with it but I’m fucking fed up with it.

  78. 578
    Algernon

    Ben, I’m done talking to you. You’re just going to go on one of your little rants that sucks everything into your women suck because I can’t have what I want moods.

    Fine. Have the whole place to yourself for the day. And piss off.

  79. 579
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Yeah, Ben because talking about what actual people in my actual life have done is much more a stereotype than you and your whining about all women.”

    Of course, you don’t bother to think that maybe I’m talking about what actual people in my actual life do, and you call that a stereotype.

  80. 580
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Fine. Have the whole place to yourself for the day. And piss off.”

    … will she stick the flounce?

  81. 581
    Algernon

    Seriously Ben, you’re a real piece of shit.

  82. 582
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Kat:

    Zach Quinto is very pretty…

    :)

    I think he’s an enjoyable actor to watch.

    I am a little surprised that he did come out, since he is very cagey during interviews. But he had a reason for coming out when he did:

    In addition to the New York magazine interview that was publicized Saturday, Quinto on Sunday posted a message on his personal blog, saying that the suicide of bullied gay teen Jamey Rodemeyer spurred him to go public about his sexuality. “In light of jamey’s death — it became clear to me in an instant that living a gay life without publicly acknowledging it — is simply not enough to make any significant contribution to the immense work that lies ahead on the road to complete equality,” he wrote.

  83. 583
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Seriously Ben, you’re a real piece of shit.”

    Pot. Kettle.

  84. 584
    Algernon

    Also, it’s not a flounce… I just don’t want to be around YOU. There’s a big difference there, no? I’m sick of cringing every time you go on your shit. You may have more friends here than I do, but that doesn’t mean I have to pretend to like you.

  85. 585
    Algernon

    Whatever, asshole. My contempt for you exceeds your ability to insult me.

  86. 586
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Whatever, asshole. My contempt for you exceeds your ability to insult me.”

    I don’t think enough of you to even have contempt.

  87. 587
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Benjamin
    It might be that there are a few people out there on planet earth who don’t understand the non-verbal communication that is so deeply entrenched in us that it’s so obvious it’s subconscious.
    I know that autistic people have often a hard time interpreting facial expressions and such correctly.
    But that stupid comic wasn’t about autistic people or body-language illiterates.
    That fucking comic was about the bad old “women never say what they really want so you can go on and do what you want anyway”.
    Remember the frat-boys cheerinh “No means yes, yes means anal”? That’s what that comic is about. About the lamest excuse since the invention of “Ughy-essy” and “Ugho-nogo”.

  88. 588
    Algernon

    You’re not going to hurt me, Ben. Because I *know* you want to. And that just makes it pathetic :)

  89. 589
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ben:

    Speaking as one of “them”: Bullshit.

    Awe, hang on a minute, I’m gonna call the WAAAAAAHM-bulance for you.

    I’m with Algernon on this: fuck off.

    Algernon:

    Everyone may be willing to put up with it but I’m fucking fed up with it.

    I’m not willing to put up with Ben’s shit either.

  90. 590
    Algernon

    Remember I didn’t start all this, I didn’t come in here posting about “all” women. You’re wrong for good valid reasons, but there’s no point in going over that with you because you’re just going to do it all again when you feel like it.

  91. 591
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “That fucking comic was about the bad old “women never say what they really want so you can go on and do what you want anyway”.”

    I get the feeling you’re reading something into it that isn’t there.

    “Remember the frat-boys cheerinh “No means yes, yes means anal”? That’s what that comic is about.”

    [citation needed]

    “About the lamest excuse since the invention of “Ughy-essy” and “Ugho-nogo”.”

    What?

  92. 592
    julian

    So you intentionally string them along?

    Your definition of ‘stringing along’ may need work. General politeness is not stringing someone. Nor is it being coy, as I’m sure you know.

    Stringing someone along would have to be given that person reason to believe you’re interested in them. If everything about your demeanor, language and presentation say otherwise you are clearly not stringing them along. Even if your body language is entirely indifferent, that is still not stringing someone along.

  93. 593
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Remember I didn’t start all this, I didn’t come in here posting about “all” women.”

    Neither did I.

  94. 594
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “You’re not going to hurt me, Ben. Because I *know* you want to. And that just makes it pathetic :)”

    Project, much?

    I don’t want to hurt you. And even if I did, I wouldn’t have to do much; you’re already doing the work for me.

  95. 595
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Carlie:

    Only thing I regret with flouncy skirt is that I did not do a little twist! Flouncy skirt would totally have done that awesome fluttery thing! Gah!

    @Audley:

    Yea, that’s an amazing statement. :)

    I’m proud of Zach, and glad that he was willing to use that as the jump-off point for his coming out. We need less murdered teenagers and more embraced and accepted ones.

  96. 596
    Mr. Fire

    Josh and Audley, it was awesome seeing you again. SallyStrange, it was awesome meeting you for the first time. I’m still tired as fuck. I haven’t been up past midnight more than five times in the past fifteen months.

    Zach Quinto coming out isn’t totally surprising to me. But hey, any excuse to think about that MAN-GOD.

  97. 597
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    MrFire:

    Josh and Audley, it was awesome seeing you again.

    It was awesome to see you!

    I already miss GirlFire. :(

  98. 598
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Benjamin
    OK, I’ve tried.
    So, obviously this comic is about you and you alone, who has problems reading other people’s body language.
    Obviously, there isn’t a toxic meme in society that women don’t communicate clearly, don’t mean what they say and that everything would be so much easier if women finally learned how to do it properly.
    Obviously this isn’t a boy-needs-non-romantic-girl-friend-to-explain-women-to-him who works as a universal translator.
    Obviously gender has nothing to to with this.

    So, you stay in obvious-land, I’m keeping with Algernon and Audley on this: fuck off
    Oh, and here you got it plain and simple.
    And no, none of us is playing hard to get or something like that.
    We really mean it.

  99. 599
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Ben – I also read that comic as playing into the trope about women being intentionally mysterious.

    All Algernon said was her experience, which you didn’t seem to like to hear. I can’t speak for anyone but me, but I too get a little concerned when you start talking about women, as you often tend to lump all women together, which I’m sure you know is somewhat problematic.

  100. 600
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Ah. I am mellow again. My collection of conductor jokes (no electric chair involved):

    What’s the difference between a bull and an orchestra?
    The bull has the horns in the front and the asshole in the back.

    ====

    A conductor and a violist are standing in the middle of the road. which one do you run over first, and why?
    The conductor. Business before pleasure.

    ========

    Why are conductor’s hearts so coveted for transplants?
    They’ve had so little use.

    =====

    What’s the difference between a conductor and a sack of fertilizer?
    The sack.

    =====

    Why is a conductor like a condom?
    It’s safer with one, but more fun without.

    ======

    What’s the difference between God and a conductor?
    God knows He’s not a conductor.

    ======

    What’s the definition of an assistant conductor?
    A mouse trying to become a rat.

    =======

    What do do with a horn player that can’t play?
    Give him two sticks, put him in the back, and call him a percussionist.
    What do you do if he can’t do that?
    Take away one of the sticks, put him up front, and call him a conductor.

    =====

    A musician calls the symphony office to talk to the conductor. “I’m sorry,he’s dead,” comes the reply.

    The musician calls back 25 times, always getting the same reply from the receptionist. At last she asks him why he keeps calling. “I just like to hear you say it.”

  101. 601
    julian

    but good when a woman explains to a man what a man should be experiencing?

    Do you mean the body language explanations? I don’t think that was telling anyone how they should feel, just an explanation as to what to look for in a person’s demeanor that might signal they’re not interested.

    You’re welcome to feel as frustrated as you like with dating, relationships and sex, but why should you be upset at any woman for how she responds to sexual advances? You tried to get something from her, hopefully you were trying to start something and not just get something, and they declined. Had they put you on the spot or tried to humiliate you out of spite, you’d have reason to be upset. But as I’m readig this (and I freely admit I might be missing something) there’s no reason for the person who initiated to be upset over the conclusion.

  102. 602
    Mr. Fire

    Actually, bad writing on my part. Zach Quinto being gay is not surprising. His coming out is in fact a surprise, though, and a welcome one.

  103. 603
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “All Algernon said was her experience, which you didn’t seem to like to hear.”

    What I didn’t like to hear was the accusation of stereotyping that she threw in at the end, not to mention her admission of doing precisely what she complained about me supposedly stereotyping.

  104. 604
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Do you mean the body language explanations?”

    No, what I mean is: “And to add to that: mythunderstandings: It’s not that they don’t understand the answer, it’s that they don’t like it.”

    What you have there is a woman explaining to a man what that man is thinking/feeling. Reverse the genders and you have ‘mansplaining’.

  105. 605
    algernon

    Wrong again. I’m not feeling too bad really. About to go to work where I’ll have limited access so I really meant it about your having this place to yourself without me. I’m doing decently well though some people I care about have issues that weigh on me. I’m loved and I love others.

  106. 606
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Wrong again. I’m not feeling too bad really.”

    So your irritability is just an act?

  107. 607
    Alexandra (née Audley)
    Yeah, Ben because talking about what actual people in my actual life have done is much more a stereotype than you and your whining about all women.

    Of course, you don’t bother to think that maybe I’m talking about what actual people in my actual life do, and you call that a stereotype.

    So, wait. Are you comparing the fact that you get rejected to the shit that Algernon’s been through?

    Jesus fucking Christ, Ben.

  108. 608
    consciousness razor

    Here’s to all us body-language illiterates.

    Wear your illiteracy with pride, Ben. Then whine about it. A fucking riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, you are.

  109. 609
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “So, wait. Are you comparing the fact that you get rejected to the shit that Algernon’s been through?”

    No, I’m saying that I’m not stereotyping women any more than she’s stereotyping men.

  110. 610
    Monado, FCD

    Pelamun said

    - interesting development regarding my bio-son and his two mothers: apparently he has started calling them “mama” in plural, but “ma” when addressing them individually. The stimulus presented to him was of course “mama”, so it must be the way he has parsed the word, as some kind of plural…

    That makes so much sense! Ma + ma = mama.

    :-)

  111. 611
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Ben

    What I didn’t like to hear was the accusation of stereotyping that she threw in at the end, not to mention her admission of doing precisely what she complained about me supposedly stereotyping.

    What Algernon said, that I assume you’re referring to

    Women, they’re so fucking hard to understand. All of them. Every last one… all the same.

    Ben – the cartoon wasn’t really discriminating about it being about one particular woman, that comic was playing straight into a pretty nasty trope. I know you’ve got some issues, and I feel for you, but you sometimes come off borderline on these issues, and it makes for some uncomfortable feelings.

  112. 612
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ben:

    No, I’m saying that I’m not stereotyping women any more than she’s stereotyping men.

    Or, you know, if you could bother to read for comprehension instead of whining your favorite tune, you’d be able to see that the shit that Algernon has been through is directly impacted by the attitude that “women are unreadable” and “woman play hard to get”.

    But, since you’re a sack of shit that would rather blame all women for your own fucking personal failings, you will outright refuse to see how absolutely harmful your attitude is.

    Shorter me: You’re part of the fucking problem, Ben.

  113. 613
    Jules

    Ben, not again.

    Just stop.

    You don’t behave great around women. You ignore their signals and their words.

    I’ve witnessed it firsthand, and I have no goddamn sympathy for your plight. Stop badgering Algernon. You don’t like what she says because it is what you do.

  114. 614
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Side note:
    Holy shit, Jules! I haven’t seen you in like forever!

    Howdy!

  115. 615
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Or, you know, if you could bother to read for comprehension instead of whining your favorite tune, you’d be able to see that the shit that Algernon has been through is directly impacted by the attitude that “women are unreadable” and “woman play hard to get”.”

    You see, what she actually said was:

    “I do say “no” though, and I’m amazed how often the very people who whine and whine and whine that women don’t will turn around and whine and whine and whine when you do. Maybe if they could correctly interpret things like crossed arms, refusing to make eye contact, and trying to be far away from them, never calling or initiating any contact, and monosyllabic responses to questions as signs of disinterest it would be easier.”

    In other words, she doesn’t want to say no verbally, so she says no nonverbally and relies on the man to pick it up.

    So yes, what she’s been through has been directly impacted by that trope: she relies on it.

  116. 616
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “You don’t behave great around women. You ignore their signals and their words.

    I’ve witnessed it firsthand, and I have no goddamn sympathy for your plight.”

    Then why didn’t you tell me this before, even though I specifically asked?

  117. 617
    algernon

    my irritability is due to the fact that I just don’t get along with you. I have problems. I have insecurities. I try to be sympathetic because I know I can get on people’s nerves with them. But honestly, I’m irritable because you get on my damned nerves with that shit. Now… Id better get off my phone before this meeting starts.

  118. 618
    julian

    What you have there is a woman explaining to a man what that man is thinking/feeling.

    I don’t know if I’d go that far. It may be dismissive of those men who have issues reading social cues, yes, but it also (or at least sounds like) is comming from the very real number of men who use that deniability to exploit and harass women.

  119. 619
    algernon

    no, actually most recently I really did say “I’m not dating, and I don’t date coworkers” verbally. After all the nonverbal signs. I’m just not going to say “fuck off” because Jesus Christ I value my life at least 90% of the time.

  120. 620
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin quoting Algernon

    “I do say “no” though, and I’m amazed how often the very people who whine and whine and whine that women don’t will turn around and whine and whine and whine when you do. Maybe if they could correctly interpret things like crossed arms, refusing to make eye contact, and trying to be far away from them, never calling or initiating any contact, and monosyllabic responses to questions as signs of disinterest it would be easier.”

    In other words, she doesn’t want to say no verbally, so she says no nonverbally and relies on the man to pick it up.

    Did you miss the first sentence that you quoted?

    Also, are you aware that it’s not uncommon for men to react extremely badly to a verbal no, much less a “fuck off”.

  121. 621
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Also, are you aware that it’s not uncommon for men to react extremely badly to a verbal no, much less a “fuck off”.”

    And why would their reaction be any less severe to a nonverbal ‘no’, if they get it?

  122. 622
    SteveV

    It was magically worker owned as a co-op

    Well, it’s not as if such things didn’t exist out there in the world.

  123. 623
    algernon

    What I am saying is that I do VERBALLY say no, and non verbally. But I wish people would leave me the fuck alone at the nonverbal level instead of turning it into a battle over my right to say no. And yeah, I have three or four specific people in mind and one of them still creeps me the fuck out.

  124. 624
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ben:

    In other words, she doesn’t want to say no verbally, so she says no nonverbally and relies on the man to pick it up.

    Oh, for shit’s sake. So, because an idiot (such as yourself) refuses to pick up on the fact that arms crossed/pissed off face/keeping distance means “stay away from me”, somehow this is Algernon’s fault?

    Why does this sound familiar…? Oh yes, it’s pretty much victim blaming. Good show.

    Here’s a protip: Non-verbal communication is communication! Shocking, right?

    (Al of this is besides the fact that Algernon directly stated that she does in fact say “no”.)

  125. 625
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    benjamin, quoting me

    “Also, are you aware that it’s not uncommon for men to react extremely badly to a verbal no, much less a “fuck off”.”

    And why would their reaction be any less severe to a nonverbal ‘no’, if they get it?

    Honestly? I think pride. With a non-verbal, assuming that they get it, they can pretend they weren’t really hitting on the woman, they can move on. When a woman outright says no, much less fuck off, it can get uglier, “I wasn’t hitting on you, why would I hit on an ugly thing like you” level of unpleasant if not worse.

    Women are heavily socialized to be polite. In that “politeness” meme that we deal with is that fact that it is rude to outright turn a man down, or that it’s prideful to assume that he’s hitting on you.

    Algernon told you she didn’t feel safe saying “fuck off”. She told you she said no. I’m uncertain what you are taking offense at there.

  126. 626
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Audley:

    Jules was my roommate at Rhinebeck :D

    And so was triskelethecat!!

    We were all on the Murphy bed together, oh yeaah ;)

    (Course, it was cause tris was giving me a massage and Jules was sleepy… but whatever, who lets details get in the way?)

  127. 627
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Oh, for shit’s sake. So, because an idiot (such as yourself) refuses to pick up on the fact that arms crossed/pissed off face/keeping distance means “stay away from me”, somehow this is Algernon’s fault?”

    “私から離れて滞在” means “stay away from me”, too.

    “Here’s a protip: Non-verbal communication is communication! Shocking, right?”

    So is speaking in Japanese, but unless the person you’re talking to understands Japanese, the communication won’t go through.

  128. 628
    Jules

    Hey, Audley! Happy belated!

    Ben, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in what I said. I said you did reasonably well, but that you needed to let a woman initiate physical contact because you’re not good with signals.

    And then what happened, Ben? Do you remember?

    You came on the fucking Thread fucking saying you were going to kill yourself again.

    Manipulative piece of shit way to be, dude.

    And don’t pretend that’s the first you’ve heard of it from me. I’ve told you repeatedly on here before we even met that you have to treat women like people. Stroking their back within two hours of meeting someone–particularly someone who has specifically talked about getting numerous unwanted sexual advances–is not how you’re supposed to treat a person.

    You don’t give a shit about others. Now shut the fuck up.

  129. 629
    Walton

    In other news, according to some guy on ERV, I was “crying like a baby” on an age-old thread about frogs and chimps that I never, in fact, commented on or even saw. :-/

    And J*sticar has declared me to be a “lemming”. Perhaps I’ll add that to my ‘nym.

    (I won’t link the thread – don’t want to give the slimepit more traffic – but it’s the same one SC linked above.)

  130. 630
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ben:

    So is speaking in Japanese, but unless the person you’re talking to understands Japanese, the communication won’t go through.

    *facepalm* Right, because you choose to ignore tone of voice and body language. If I approached someone and they shrank away from me, no matter what language they were speaking, I can reasonably guess that they want to be left alone. And I think most people would probably be able to get it, too.

    And this “I can’t read body language” bullshit is exactly that. You don’t want to, so you don’t. It’s so much easier when you just march ahead oblivious to everyone else’s feelings, then whine and complain that women don’t like you when they tell you “no”. Of course they say “no”, asshole! You don’t actually give a rat’s ass about what they want, it’s all about you all the fucking time.

  131. 631
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Kat:

    We were all on the Murphy bed together, oh yeaah ;)

    Jealous!

    There was a Murphy bed present at the fabulous Spokesgay sleepover, but Josh had it to himself.

    I didn’t realize that people still used Murphy beds– I think it’s super cool. Hell, if I had realized that they were still around, I would have gotten one for my last apartment.

    Jules:
    Thanks!

  132. 632
    Eurasian magpie

    So you intentionally string them along?

    Dude. You lost it right there. In that sentence.

    In other words, she doesn’t want to say no verbally, so she says no nonverbally and relies on the man to pick it up.

    So yes, what she’s been through has been directly impacted by that trope: she relies on it.

    Victim blaming much?

    And why would their reaction be any less severe to
    a nonverbal ‘no’, if they get it?

    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Next time I need to communicate a ‘no’ I’ll just go directly to the ball breaking mode, eh?

    I know rejection hurts. But the thing is, no one has a right to not be rejected. No one has a right to another person’s attention. If you cannot accept this you’d better settle for the porcupines. They will keep coming your way unless you wisen up.

  133. 633
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Next time I need to communicate a ‘no’ I’ll just go directly to the ball breaking mode, eh?”

    Way to miss the point, bub.

    The point is: There’s no reason to go the nonverbal, inscrutable route when a simple “no” is infinitely more effective and the reaction no worse.

  134. 634
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Audley:

    It was an awesome time to be had there. Sad that the Spokesgay get together didn’t happen in Rhinebeck too, that would be even better :D

  135. 635
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “I know rejection hurts. But the thing is, no one has a right to not be rejected. No one has a right to another person’s attention.”

    Last time I saw a straw man that big, they burned it in Nevada.

  136. 636
    Algernon

    Nonverbal isn’t a decision, it’s a real visceral reaction to being bothered by people. Just watch people in a line when some one tries to break in and jump ahead for some genuine instinctive non-verbal signals.

  137. 637
    Walton

    Aarrrggghh. Benjamin, stop being an ass. Please. You know better than this.

    I understand and empathize with the shit you’ve been through. Honestly, I do. I understand social anxiety and self-esteem issues, from personal experience. And I’ve tried my best to be supportive and helpful in the past. But it isn’t a reason to lash out at people here who have done nothing to hurt you, and who are simply trying to explain where you might be going wrong with these interactions.

  138. 638
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Nonverbal isn’t a decision, it’s a real visceral reaction to being bothered by people.”

    But not saying anything *is* a decision.

  139. 639
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “But it isn’t a reason to lash out at people here who have done nothing to hurt you, and who are simply trying to explain where you might be going wrong with these interactions.”

    Yeah, if by “explain” you mean “insult and smear”.

  140. 640
    consciousness razor

    The point is: There’s no reason to go the nonverbal, inscrutable route when a simple “no” is infinitely more effective and the reaction no worse.

    The reaction is in the future, so unless time travel is a practical option, no one has any idea whether that is the situation. I note that since you insist nonverbal cues are “inscrutable,” they also can’t be expected to interpret them correctly. So, unless you explicitly say something in advance, to effect of, “Don’t use nonverbal cues. Just say ‘no,’” they would have no reason to think you’re incapable of interpreting them yourself.

  141. 641
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “So, unless you explicitly say something in advance, to effect of, “Don’t use nonverbal cues. Just say ‘no,’” they would have no reason to think you’re incapable of interpreting them yourself.”

    Immediately backing off would be a good sign that they did interpret the cues. If they don’t, then you can pretty readily assume they didn’t, and it’s time for a simple, polite ‘no’.

  142. 642
    Algernon

    But not saying anything *is* a decision.

    So is deliberately ignoring the fact that I stated in the original, and then three or so times after that I do indeed say “no” quite explicitly when some one pushes it further.

    Very rich you talking about “smearing” Ben. Very rich. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I have problems, and I can be annoying (for instance I feel bad that I let my insecurities keep me from just openly complimenting people on their talent some times because it’s just my neurosis making me negative so I try to be complimentary as much as I can though I falter some times) but I’m not like you. You seem to keep thinking that I am. I’m not. I can be happy for other people at the end of it. Can you? Ever?

    Have you ever just looked at some one who is happy or some people who have something you like and thought “nice for them?”

  143. 643
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin quoting I’m not sure who ::grin::

    “So, unless you explicitly say something in advance, to effect of, “Don’t use nonverbal cues. Just say ‘no,’” they would have no reason to think you’re incapable of interpreting them yourself.”

    Immediately backing off would be a good sign that they did interpret the cues. If they don’t, then you can pretty readily assume they didn’t, and it’s time for a simple, polite ‘no’.

    Benjamin, not backing off either means they didn’t get the non-verbal, or it means that the just don’t fucking care…

  144. 644
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Kat:

    It was an awesome time to be had there. Sad that the Spokesgay get together didn’t happen in Rhinebeck too, that would be even better :D

    :D

    It would be great if one year we could all finally converge.

    Ben:

    The point is: There’s no reason to go the nonverbal, inscrutable route when a simple “no” is infinitely more effective and the reaction no worse.

    Still victim blaming. What a surprise!

    Without going too much into Sociology 101 (‘cos lord knows you’ll just ignore it), women are socialized to be polite and non-confrontational. But that can’t play into a decision not to say “no” directly, no sir! Not at all!

    But that’s rather beside the point: A woman shouldn’t be blamed for not being assertive enough because you’re too fucking dense to pick up on her body language.

    Yeah, if by “explain” you mean “insult and smear”.

    Oh boo fucking hoo. We have explained this shit to you damned near a thousand times and you ignore everything that is inconvenient to your worldview. You’d just rather have a Benjamin pity-party/women blaming fiesta rather than actually think about your attitudes and what you’ve said.

  145. 645
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “I’m not like you. You seem to keep thinking that I am. I’m not.”

    Conversely, I’m not like you, and for that I’m eternally grateful.

    “I can be happy for other people at the end of it. Can you? Ever?

    Have you ever just looked at some one who is happy or some people who have something you like and thought “nice for them?””

    Constantly.

  146. 646
    Algernon

    Oh poor you, so smeared, so maligned.

  147. 647
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Without going too much into Sociology 101 (‘cos lord knows you’ll just ignore it), women are socialized to be polite and non-confrontational.”

    … and inscrutable, and mysterious.

  148. 648
    consciousness razor

    Immediately backing off would be a good sign that they did interpret the cues.

    Thus, nonverbal cues aren’t inscrutable, even to you. Get it? You just don’t want to notice the cues which aren’t favorable to you. That’s a problem for men and women, in verbal and nonverbal communication. Deal with it.

    If they don’t, then you can pretty readily assume they didn’t, and it’s time for a simple, polite ‘no’.

    It’s not time for anything. You’re not entitled to any particular response at all.

  149. 649
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Audley:

    And much debauchery and mischief would follow :3

  150. 650
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Thus, nonverbal cues aren’t inscrutable, even to you. Get it?”

    No, I reasoned through it.

    “You just don’t want to notice the cues which aren’t favorable to you. That’s a problem for men and women, in verbal and nonverbal communication. Deal with it.”

    [citation needed]

    “It’s not time for anything. You’re not entitled to any particular response at all.”

    It’s not that we’re entitled. It’s that that’s what’s required to get the point across. Nice strawman, though.

    And with that, I need to get to class.

  151. 651
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ben:

    … and inscrutable, and mysterious.

    Oh fuck you. Seriously.

    You have no fucking idea what you’re talking about, do you? Anyone that cares enough about other people will be able to see the “fuck off” body language, but to shit stains like you, it’s “mysterious”. The “mysterious” trope is just an excuse to ignore what the woman in question wants.

    You’re not fooling anyone.

    Trying to educate you has gotten tiresome*, so I’ll sum up why you have no luck with relationships in three little words:

    You’re an asshole.

    *Okay, it was tiresome years ago.

  152. 652
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Kat:

    And much debauchery and mischief would follow :3

    Hm, there was a little bit of debauchery* at the Spokesgay sleepover, but not a whole hell of a lot of mischief. We’ll have to rectify that!

    *If you count beer and baked goods as debauchery, anyway. :D

  153. 653
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    I should be working, but my desire to jump in with a quick Rhinebeck post-analysis is overwhelming. What can I say? I give in to my basest (though not my bassist) urges.

    It. Was. Fucking. AMAZING!

    I was a little hesitant at first. While I have cleverly disguised myself as an extrovert, I have anxiety issues in crowds, and especially among strangers. Volunteering to place myself among a crowd of strangers — that was nervous-making. My wife, however, insisted I go. “You’ll have a lot of fun once you get over your jitters,” she said. I think she simply looked forward to a weekend of solitude in a quiet house.

    While I missed the opening ceremonial orgy, chess championship, and cook-out, I was able to participate in the Running of the Sheep. Mattir’s knowledge of all things fiber is astounding, and the spawn were delightful. Jadehawk is every bit as evil in person as you might imagine. DDMFM is quite intimidating, which is passing odd, as he is very polite, and quite pleasant. And intimidating.

    It was a privilege to meet so many fine and wonderful folks, all of whom lived up to — and most often exceeded — the models I’ve created of them in my mind. I only wish I could have spent more time getting to know everyone there.

    And I wasn’t nervous at all.

  154. 654
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Audley:

    Yum, beer and baked goods is some pretty awesome debauchery indeed! We had the same debauchery, plus texting to Facebook on tris’s promiscuous phone, and much knitting!

    And me in a skirt!

    But yea, we didn’t get in much mischief either. Maybe if the two groups gathered together it would be mischievious enough :3

  155. 655
    Algernon

    (takes a break from the cesspool)

    Awww you were there too Nigel? Damn!

  156. 656
    Algernon

    Damn, the meeting actually *would* pick back up now :(

  157. 657
    opposablethumbs

    Monado (at 611) said that
    Pelamun said (way back at 140)

    - interesting development regarding my bio-son and his two mothers: apparently he has started calling them “mama” in plural, but “ma” when addressing them individually. The stimulus presented to him was of course “mama”, so it must be the way he has parsed the word, as some kind of plural…

    Oh, I forgot about that! I’m glad Monado brought it up again. I wanted to ask, am I right in thinking that doubling-up to form a plural is fairly common in a lot of languages? Like in Bahasa Indonesia?
    It certainly seems more than plausible that Pelamun is right and bio-son is pluralising.

    PS what’s a Murphy bed, some kind of foldaway?

  158. 658
    Monado, FCD

    Opposablethumbs @89, “shiv” is a Romney term for knife, IIRC.

  159. 659
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin quoting Audley

    “Without going too much into Sociology 101 (‘cos lord knows you’ll just ignore it), women are socialized to be polite and non-confrontational.”

    … and inscrutable, and mysterious.

    Fine. I fucking give up. I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here – this sort of crap isn’t helping.

    Algernon – yes, Nigel was there, and he’s awesome in person, so is Walton, and Jules, and triskelethecat, and, and, and, and, and. It was overall pretty damn spiffy. It would rock if the Spokegayside could merge next year. We thought about Skyping with the VT folk, but the hotel’s internet was a bit spotty so it didn’t happen.

    Hey Nigel – did your wife hate the necklace ::grin::?

  160. 660
    Monado, FCD

    Yep, Murphy beds fold into the wall–usually seeen now only in old black & white comedy videos, but they still make them.

  161. 661
    Ing

    If people want more snark over at EVR or the like let me know and I’ll pop my head in tonight to wave fire in front of the ogres face and draw it’s attention.

  162. 662
    Aquaria

    Chris Rodda is trying to get people to sign a petition that’s been filed with the White House to end discrimination against non-religious military members. It needs five thousand signatures for the Obama Administration to respond to it.

    The text of the petition reads:

    The US military fails to provide Equal Opportunity for non-religious service members.

    We are forced to participate in religious rituals during official ceremonies. This is not free exercise, this is forced exercise. Worship belongs in voluntary services, not in mandatory formations. This is unconstitutional establishment of an official preference for religion over non-religion.

    We are forced to take an unconstitutional religious test for “Spiritual Fitness”. Those who fail the test are forced to take remedial training instructing them to go to church and pray. This proselytization by the US military is forced onto us against our will.

    These policies create a hostile environment, division, and resentment within the military, destroying morale and threatening national security.

    The petition is here:

    https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/end-military’s-discrimination-against-non-religious-service-members/jcfr6fWt

    You have to sign up with the White House website, and verify your email address. I usually don’t sign up for petitions, but I figured the “you have no privacy” Obama Administration already knows who I am and where, or can, if they really want to, so fuck it, sign up.

  163. 663
    Monado, FCD

    The Laughing Coyote, that’s a fine, primitive-looking knife handle. I’ll bet pagans would jump at them for athames unless you have to make your own.

  164. 664
    Walton

    As we observed at the time, this is the slippery slope of immorality and debauchery that inexorably results from non-belief. When one stops believing in gods, one can soon find oneself travelling hundreds of miles to attend sheep festivals, eating fresh-baked cookies and pumpkin pie, wearing plastic crowns, and learning the dark arts of knitting, spinning and crocheting.* I’m surprised all these things were omitted from the Official Demonic Possession Questionnaire. :-D

    (*Admittedly I didn’t personally attempt these latter activities, thanks to a lifelong lack of hand-eye coordination.)

  165. 665
    Algernon

    I soooo wanna see pics.

  166. 666
    consciousness razor

    “Thus, nonverbal cues aren’t inscrutable, even to you. Get it?”

    No, I reasoned through it.

    Thus it is possible to scrutinize it, meaning it is… wait for it… scrutable: not inscrutable. Whee! Word games are just so much fun.

    “You just don’t want to notice the cues which aren’t favorable to you. That’s a problem for men and women, in verbal and nonverbal communication. Deal with it.”

    [citation needed]

    Denialist bullshit of a patently obvious and trivial set of claims. You’re acting like an ignorant ass, so I won’t waste another comment on it.

    “It’s not time for anything. You’re not entitled to any particular response at all.”

    It’s not that we’re entitled. It’s that that’s what’s required to get the point across. Nice strawman, though.

    It isn’t required to get the point across, dipshit, and that wasn’t a strawman. The point is that if a woman is interested in you, she is capable of communicating or demonstrating that to you, be it verbally or nonverbally or in semaphore, just as you are. If she isn’t interested, then nothing whatsoever needs to be communicated. Not even body language, but that may suffice to end a line of conversation, so it is useful.

  167. 667
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Kat:

    We had the same debauchery, plus texting to Facebook on tris’s promiscuous phone, and much knitting!

    :D

    That sounds like so much fun!

    A question for any bakers out there: Yesterday I made my favorite cake recipe* in cupcake form and while the cupcakes weren’t bad, they weren’t as good either. They were denser and drier than the cake itself.

    Any suggestions? I baked them at the same temp (350°), but they were in the oven for roughly half the time that the original cake recipe called for.

    *Coconut cream cake. OM NOM NOM. It’s pretty much just a basic yellow cake batter with coconut cream instead of milk/cream and oil (with a splash of coconut extract).

  168. 668
    Ing

    Anyone else attend the NY comic con? Maybe I saw you?

  169. 669
    Monado, FCD

    I just want to say that I had a wonderful time at Rhinebeck, even with coming in late, being late for everything, seven hours of looking at wool, and heroic 13-hour drives before and after. It was really nice meeting so many pleasant, talkative, intelligent people and finding out who’s who. I’m sorry I didn’t meet everyone individually and hang around more, but that was mainly a factor of distance to cover and lack of cell phones to co-ordinate at the fair. Once you lost someone, they stayed lost. Everyone, get cell phones for next year even if it’s only a pay as you go –as long as it will take a few text messages.

  170. 670
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    @Audley I’d guess they were a little overcooked (says the purveyor of cookies and pie). Usually when I take a cake down to a cupcake I end up doing about a third of the time.

  171. 671
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Algernon:

    Awww you were there too Nigel? Damn!

    Yep. I almost didn’t make it. It was an 8-hour drive, and I had to work Friday, due to an impossible workload dumped on us last week. But, I took off immediately after work, arrived in the hour of the cephalopod (most likely interrupting the rest of my fantastic roommates, Sili and First Approximation), had a refreshing 4 hours of sleep, and attacked the new day like a cat on a moth.

    It was a blast, as we used to say back in the later part of the last century.

     

    Muse:

    Hey Nigel – did your wife hate the necklace ::grin::?

    Quite the opposite — she loved it. She grinned when I gave it to her. “Pink!” She’s still surprised by her own recent discovery that she likes pink.

    She thanks you, and so do I.

  172. 672
    Monado, FCD

    Will start uploading pics tonight, maybe.

  173. 673
    Monado, FCD

    Bagpipes. Bagpipes were designed to be heard on a battleground, over the roar of battle. I once attended an international bagpipe competition. Whoever set it up amplified it as they would a rock-music concert: with 6′ tall amps lined up along the front of the grandstand, blasting the crowd. The bands marched on playing, played, and marched off playing. One of the best parts was the pipes receding into the distance–or would have been if the idiot announcer hadn’t jumped into the “gap” and talked over it about how great the band was. I could have strangled him, but we left almost immediately with headaches because of the noise levels.

  174. 674
    The Sailor

    Tomaz79, no joke, the song is about Hoagy’s sister.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Mattir, that machine sounds like the ovine version of the Bass-O-Matic.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    How many composition majors does it take to change a light bulb?

    Only one, but he has to be a well grounded person and a good conductor.

  175. 675
    Algernon

    It was an 8-hour drive, and I had to work Friday, due to an impossible workload dumped on us last week.

    Wow! You are tenacious! I couldn’t tell if I could get the day off or not. I guess I could have tried flying out at night and then back Sunday, but I’m not such a trooper as you apparently!

    As it turned out I couldn’t have taken it off even if I had the vacation time left either.

  176. 676
    Lynna, OM

    BYU academics formulated a premise that swearing leads to physical violence. Then they designed a “scientific” study to prove that swearing leads to violence. BYU upholds their tradition of low standards for scientific studies.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52712680-78/profanity-games-media-video.html.csp

    Is profanity the equivalent to marijuana — one is considered a gateway to harder drugs the other a gateway activity to violence?

    A study from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints-owned Brigham Young University suggests so.

    BYU researchers found that middle school students who watched TV and played video games with profanity were more likely to use profanity. And dropping swear words was in turn related to being physically violent and aggressive in how they treat others.

    The results were published Monday in the American Academy of Pediatrics’ peer-reviewed journal Pediatrics….

    “It’s not like you hear profanity in the media and go and punch somebody. I think of it as a trickle-down effect,” said Sarah M. Coyne, a BYU assistant professor of family life and lead author of the study. “It represents a lack of respect for parents or whoever you’re using it towards. It’s like a slippery slope. You start using it, and it becomes associated with other aggression.”

    …Because of the LDS Church’s admonishment against vulgar language — BYU requires employees and students to use “clean language” — Coyne said she didn’t want to survey Utah students. Utah parents, she said, may be more concerned than the general population about media content.

    “It’s a study coming out of BYU. We wanted people to respect the study,” she said.

    Even after controlling for the violent content of the teens’ favorite programs — which included the games Halo, Mario Kart, Wii Sports, Super Smash Bros. and TV shows ranging from SpongeBob SquarePants to HBO shows — the study showed a “moderate” indirect effect of exposure to profanity on aggression.

    “Profanity is often aggressive in itself,” Coyne said. “People will use profanity as a way to hurt other people. You can see how you can go on to other types of aggression.”

    The article, “Profanity in Media Associated with Attitudes and Behavior Regarding Profanity use and Aggression,” is co-authored by former graduate student Laura Stockdale, Professor David Nelson and current graduate student Ashley Fraser.

  177. 677
    Ing

    Is profanity the equivalent to marijuana — one is considered a gateway to harder drugs by idiots the other a gateway activity to violence?

    FTFY

  178. 678
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Muse:

    I’d guess they were a little overcooked (says the purveyor of cookies and pie). Usually when I take a cake down to a cupcake I end up doing about a third of the time.

    Okay, thanks, that helps a lot! Last night’s batch was kind of trial-and-error (since I was kind of just winging it), but that makes sense.

    The other mystery is that they didn’t rise all that much. Could my oven have been too hot and they cooked too quickly or was it something else, you think? Or should I expect them to only rise a little bit?

    (Sorry, sorry. Now that I know that you’re a baker and I’ve just started putting serious time into making desserts from scratch, I’m gonna pick at your brainz a little bit. :D)

  179. 679
    Ing

    Also just cruel and sadistic in light of the research that shows swearing helps people tolerate pain.

  180. 680
    chigau (違う)

    Everyone, every day uses non-verbal communication.
    Dozens if not hundreds of times every day.
    Nodding, winking, shrugging, eye-rolling, etc, etc, etc.
    The specifics vary with culture (obviously) but we all do it, all the time.
    Why does it become “inscrutable” only when it comes to getting laid by strangers?

  181. 681
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Well, “just started baking” as in almost two years ago, but I totally lost last summer ‘cos it was so damned hot.

    (It all started with a cheesecake….)

  182. 682
    Ing

    @Chigau

    One of my big complaints with that whole “Million Dollar Challenge”. The set up basically screams “THIS IS NOT REAL!!!” and breaks the cultural norms and accepted unspoken language and cues and then acts like the thought experiment actually matters. It’d be like going into a McDonalds nude and being convinced that American culture doesn’t eat because they refused to serve you

  183. 683
    julian

    Chris Rodda is trying to get people to sign a petition that’s been filed with the White House to end discrimination against non-religious military members. It needs five thousand signatures for the Obama Administration to respond to it.

    Well he’s one closer now. I’ll pass word on to a few atheists I know here but they’ll probably scoff at it.

  184. 684
    Algernon

    OMG Walton sent me a group pic and I saw him in his hilarious crown too.

    The adorable people…

    I die!

  185. 685
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    chigau:

    Why does it become “inscrutable” only when it comes to getting laid by strangers?

    It’s only “inscrutable” if the stranger isn’t interested. If the stranger is interested (and their body language says so), IT’S FUCKING GO TIME!

    God, this just bums me out.

  186. 686
    chigau (違う)

    Ing
    Which “Million Dollar Challenge”?

  187. 687
    Mr. Fire

    julian, fyi: Chris Rodda is a woman :)

  188. 688
    Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments

    Ha! I seem to have a duplication error without seeing my first statement show up.

  189. 689
    julian

    My bad.

    She’s one step closer to her 5000 signature goal.

  190. 690
    Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments

    Great, my complaining comment shows up.

  191. 691
    PSG

    Just wanted to send a shout out and thank you to the Horde. I spoke for a few hours with a friend last night – about religion, abortion, rape culture, and so on. It was because of you all, who are willing to argue over and over again with MRAs and godbots, that I was able to really challenge his way of thinking, response to those common arguments calmly & effectively, and do so without screaming “Cuz it’s just freaking wrong, duh!” at any time. :)

    So from a long time reader, first time commentor, thank you, thank you, thank you all. (((hugs)))

  192. 692
    Algernon

    Meh… I can relate to having trigger subjects. Believe it or not I’m working on mine, because I know they come from my own blame and pressure all of which I put on myself.

    Strangely enough, watching my grandmother die recently has helped. Not because death is easy, but because she was such a happy creator of things. She never let it get to her, she just enjoyed what she did and it inspired people in its own way with happiness. Taking that time to reflect on that aspect of her personality has given me something to think about when it comes to have love for yourself.

    That being said, I’m just not willing to take that bullshit any longer. I feel like the longer I’m quiet about it the more I’m sort of saying it’s ok. And you can see, it hasn’t gotten me any respect to stay shut up about it.

    IOW, I’m sorry for being a whiny depressive ass some times, but I’m not sorry for refusing to take shit from people that will only run me down and leave me feeling bad about myself if I let it.

    (by the way, this is me not letting it)

  193. 693
    The Sailor

    Ben, a lot of people were brought up to be so polite that it’s difficult to say “No.” Women more so than men, but men too. Maybe it’s a Midwest thing.

    I’m an asshole, and I have very little problem saying No, but I had to learn it. It’s almost like you need a dating course, except you’ve gotten one here for years.

    I hope you’re just having a bad day, because Ben, you’re in a hole, please stop digging.

  194. 694
    Walton

    Algernon,

    *hugs*

  195. 695
    Algernon

    Oh, Walton, let’s be happy instead today!

    After all I never thought I would eat a kool-aid pickle, and you never thought you’d get to confer knighthood on some one :P

  196. 696
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    PSG:

    … I was able to really challenge his way of thinking, response to those common arguments calmly & effectively, and do so without screaming “Cuz it’s just freaking wrong, duh!” at any time. :)

    That’s freaking awesome!

    Welcome to TET. Hop right in, the water’s fine*. :)

    *Well, it’s a little sharky sometimes, but you get used to it.

  197. 697
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Walton was totally a sport about the crown. He looked adorable in it, and acted appropriately regal. Algernon, we’d love to have you if life allows it, and you’d like to come next year. We’re already planning how best to lure Walton back across the pond so he can be there as well (even if he’s wrong about garden gnomes).

  198. 698
    SallyStrange

    Algernon, you are awesome and not irritating at all. To me, at least. Or rather, whatever irritation you cause pales in comparison to the intense nails-on-chalkboard cringing sensation I feel whenever Benjamin Geiger goes into his whiny faux-autistic women-are-so-mysterious rant modes.

  199. 699
    Walton

    Oh, Walton, let’s be happy instead today!

    After all I never thought I would eat a kool-aid pickle, and you never thought you’d get to confer knighthood on some one :P

    *giggles* Indeed. At the next meetup I’m going to have to confer some more titles of nobility.

  200. 700
    Walton

    We’re already planning how best to lure Walton back across the pond so he can be there as well (even if he’s wrong about garden gnomes).

    Oh, I’ll be there, work and finances permitting. I might even bring my garden gnome with me, just to prove a point. :-p

  201. 701
    The Sailor

    Walton, I would settle for a Title Of Civility, but I won’t deserve one;-)
    ++++++++++++++
    I soon leave for the 2nd attempt to haul my sailboat. As you all recall, we help each other out here at my marina, and some folks need more help than others, and I spent that day helping others.

    Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun were wonderful sailing, but it’s kinda hard to make your boat fit your trailer in 20 kts of wind, when your keel is retracted. Or even when it’s not.

    I hope to stick the landing on the 1st try. What!? It could happen!

  202. 702
    Ingdigo Jump

    Which “Million Dollar Challenge”?

    Dawkins’s

  203. 703
    chigau (違う)

    Has anyone else ever spent 2+ hours clicking around cakewrecks.com?

  204. 704
    Algernon

    Wait, you’re on the pro-gnome side!? I’m intrigued.

  205. 705
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good evening
    Very good news today: My aunt had her 3-monthly scan for her lung-cancer and eeeeverything is fine and dandy.
    OK, apart from the inflamed oesophagus, but well, it’s not cancer, is it?

    pelamun
    OK, missed that one.
    Makes perfect sense to me.
    Both my kids took the “ma” in “Oma” to be a prefix to the actual name due to three of the five people called “Oma” (2 grand- and 3 great-grandmothers) having names that started with “Ma”, too
    What I found insteresting was that the little one came up with the word “Nana” for my aunt all by herself.

    OK, so it’s possible for Pratchett to get a bunch of Nac Mac Feegle to understand “the folding o’ the arms” (waily-waily), the pursing o’ the lips (waily-waily) and the “tapping o’ the feets” (oh waily-waily) correctly, but it’s not possible for Benjamin.
    Listen, I learned to interpret the body-language of our rabbits. It took me an evening on the internet and an afternoon watching the rabbits.
    Should be possible for humans, too.

  206. 706
    Algernon

    Has anyone else ever spent 2+ hours clicking around cakewrecks.com?

    Many, many times.

    Oh man that site makes me laugh (I can occasionally manage to make a pretty decent cake… but only some times).

  207. 707
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    For those at Rhinebeck asking about the band on my shirt, I give you:

    Squid!

  208. 708
    RichardAustin

    Aww, all you people having fun meeting up everywhere and I’m stuck working 70 hours a week.

    On the plus side, I may get to meet the Bay Area crowd after Christmas (if they’re still around). On top of that, I found out a friend from high school has a restaurant near the resort I’ll be staying at for NYE, so I’m going to go get free food (and hang out with him) at some point.

  209. 709
    Walton

    Wait, you’re on the pro-gnome side!? I’m intrigued.

    The dispute was over the correct usage of the term “garden gnome”. Muse claims that my garden gnome at home in England is not, in fact, a garden gnome, since I mentioned that he resides on my bedroom windowsill and not in the garden.

    I, of course, dispute this. I maintain that term “garden gnome” refers to the type of gnome, not to its physical location. After all, an English muffin does not cease to be an English muffin when eaten in America; a Swiss Army knife is still a Swiss Army knife even if its owner is not Swiss and has never served in the military; a dishcloth is still a dishcloth even if used for a purpose other than washing dishes; and Dobby the house-elf is still a house-elf even when he is not in a house. And so forth.

    (To those without a gnome in their home, this might appear to be a trivial disagreement over the taxonomy of household figurines. But those of us who have spent time with garden gnomes know better.)

    :-D

    (Yes, we really did discuss this. Honestly.)

  210. 710
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Fucking CFI Croatia. They only put announcements of events on their Facebook page. There is supposed to be a lecture debunking homeopathy this fall and I wanted to take my friend (who studied pharmacy, but isn’t sure about homeopathy because she isn’t informed enough) to get informed and not be one of those who take the side of woo by not wanting to clearly take sides. And now I see a lecture about alternative medicine was already held. Damned Facebook. I hope I can find out if there is going to be another one, specifically about homeopathy, later. But I’m not reopening a Facebook account just because of them. They have a regular web page, they could try using it in advance, not only after the event.

  211. 711
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Walton:

    I maintain that term “garden gnome” refers to the type of gnome, not to its physical location.

    You are absolutely correct.

    In fact, there’s an SUV that drives around the Albany area that has a garden gnome stuck on the roof– it’s still a garden gnome, not a “vehicle that is capable of off-roading, but will never even see a dirt road” gnome.

  212. 712
    Pteryxx

    *raises talon* As someone who really can’t read subtle body language or facial expressions, I don’t buy it as an excuse. When y’ know you’re going to miss cues, you should take responsibility for not trampling on other people with your misunderstanding. In my case, I’m intimidating and I tend to dominate conversations without realizing it; so I self check (Am I still on-topic? Has anyone else talked recently?) and ask for feedback at intervals (“Shall I go on?” “What do you think?” etc).

    The whole “subtle no’es” problem goes right away when you wait for a definite “yes”.

    …And I’m agnomestic.

  213. 713
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    I maintain that that object is a gnome. If it’s in a garden than it’s a garden gnome. What’s the difference between a gnome and a garden gnome?

  214. 714
    chigau (違う)

    re: Dawkins’s Million Dollar Sex Challange
    that’s just weird.

  215. 715
    First Approximation, Shevek

    (Yes, we really did discuss this. Honestly.)

    Among sheep and wool. At times I wasn’t entirely convinced that I was not dreaming.

  216. 716
    RichardAustin

    What are your feelings on houseflies? E.g., since I don’t own a house, is it therefore an apartmentfly instead?

    Is a throw rug still a throw rug if it’s not thrown?

    (I admit I’m particular about the bathroom/restroom thing; if there’s no bath or shower – ergo, no real chance of bathing – it’s not a bathroom.)

  217. 717
    Jessa

    Chiming in a bit late* to add my agreement that Rhinebeck was fantastic. Spouse and I had an absolute blast.

    I think we were successful in assimilating the spouse; he was initially dubious about traveling all the way to NY to meet internet friends, and now he’s talking about going back next year!

    *Sleep deprivation** and an 11-hour drive home meant sleep was the first order of business.

    **Lack of sleep blamed partially on the awesomeness of nigelTheBold.

  218. 718
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Pteryxx:

    “The whole “subtle no’es” problem goes right away when you wait for a definite “yes”.”

    So does the whole “ever having to deal with a ‘yes’” problem. (I know, because that’s what I do.)

  219. 719
    Eurasian magpie

    @Benjamin

    A ‘no’ which you refuse to recognize/accept does not make a ‘yes’.

  220. 720
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin – do you realize that you are acting like you are entitled to a relationship?

  221. 721
    Walton

    Katherine,

    Also, at Rhinebeck, I wore a skirt to dinner! (thanks to triskelethecat for it btw, it’s an awesome skirt!!! I think flouncy is the correct adjective but correct me if I’m wrong)

    And very beautiful you looked, too.

    Speaking of which, there are now some adorable pictures of the Horde online! (Many thanks to JackC for excellent photography.)

  222. 722
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Walton:

    Ehehe, thanks *blush*

    I hope I didn’t swoon too much at your accent.

  223. 723
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    pj:

    “A ‘no’ which you refuse to recognize/accept does not make a ‘yes’.”

    Yes, but a ‘yes’ that I’m incapable of recognizing is as good as a ‘no’.

  224. 724
    Walton

    @Walton:

    Ehehe, thanks *blush*

    I hope I didn’t swoon too much at your accent.

    *giggles*

  225. 725
    The Sailor

    a “vehicle that is capable of off-roading, but will never even see a dirt road”

    Except for the that they’re not capable of off-roading, more than once, I like your definition.
    +++++++++++++
    My boat recovery/haul-out went off with out a hitch, by which I mean it didn’t happen.

    It’s no_ones fault, we’re all doing our best, but the Wx is turning for the worse. Scheduling is a problem from here on out.
    Arrrgggghhh.
    ++++++++++++++
    My bathtub is still full of sewage residue, no baths or showers for me. Ya’ll will still let me hang out here if I keep downwind, right?

    (Supposedly I have a person who has OCD and cleans crime scenes coming in tomorrow morning. And no, I’m not kidding.
    ++++++++++++++
    Ben, please stop digging.

  226. 726
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Benjamin – do you realize that you are acting like you are entitled to a relationship?”

    How, exactly, does outlining my own limitations turn into “acting entitled”?

  227. 727
    First Approximation, Shevek

    (Many thanks to JackC for excellent photography.)

    He sure did take a lot of pictures of the PharnyguWomen fawning over onion girl.

  228. 728
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Ben, please stop digging.”

    Fuck it, I’m at the water table already. Drowning’s easier than climbing five flights of stairs.

  229. 729
    SallyStrange

    Benjamin –

    If you were hitting on me with the attitude that you are currently displaying, it wouldn’t just be no, it would be, NO! (should I punch this creep in the face just to get the point across?)

    Algernon is right, there’s no reason to continue to put up with your bullshit. Be an asshole in your own life all you want, but please stop vomiting it all over TET. I enjoy Algernon’s company and I’m going to be PISSED if she decides to leave because you can’t keep your yap shut about your basic failure to be a decent human being.

  230. 730
    Walton

    “Ben, please stop digging.”

    Fuck it, I’m at the water table already. Drowning’s easier than climbing five flights of stairs.

    Fuck.

    Benjamin, seriously. Please don’t do anything like that. Please.

    No one wants that. I genuinely wasn’t trying to be nasty to you, and I’m sorry if I made things worse.

  231. 731
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Benjamin, seriously. Please don’t do anything like that. Please.”

    I was being metaphorical. I think.

  232. 732
    Walton

    Benjamin, honestly. If you’re seriously thinking that way right now, get help. Go and talk to someone. Go to the health clinic if you need to.

  233. 733
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin, please stop tossing suicidal language around.

  234. 734
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Muse: I write what I know.

  235. 735
    chigau (違う)

    Where are the pictures?

  236. 736
    SallyStrange
    “Ben, please stop digging.”

    Fuck it, I’m at the water table already. Drowning’s easier than climbing five flights of stairs.

    Fuck.

    Benjamin, seriously. Please don’t do anything like that. Please.

    No one wants that. I genuinely wasn’t trying to be nasty to you, and I’m sorry if I made things worse.

    No. Benjamin is just being an attention-monger now. He’s been justly called out for replicating misogynist memes, including expecting the world to cater to “his limitations” which are purely self-created, and now, rather than actually deal with that, he’s going to try to distract people from his refusal to listen to the excellent advice he’s getting by wallowing in self-pity. I’m sure he feels that all of this is legitimate and he’s being totally reasonable, but that’s why he needs to shut up about it on TET and go get some therapy or something. It’s not healthy for him, and it’s not healthy for us.

  237. 737
    Eurasian magpie

    I chose a wrong verb – should’ve written “does not turn into a ‘yes’”.

    Benjamin, if you were so incapable of reading non-verbal clues as you claim, you could not function in society at all. Most likely you wouldn’t even be living independently. So stop bullshitting and start learning the language of non-verbal interaction. Genuinely autistic people can learn social interaction. You can too if you only would be bothered.

  238. 738
    Walton

    “Benjamin, seriously. Please don’t do anything like that. Please.”

    I was being metaphorical. I think.

    In that case, please don’t do that again. Ever. Perhaps I’m unusually literal-minded, but it sounded to me like a sincere suicide threat, which is something I take very seriously. (Especially given the context, and your history of depression.) It made me worried and scared.

  239. 739
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Ben – if you are actively suicidal, please either call 1-800-273-8255 (the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline) or take yourself to the hospital.

    Your talk of suicidal ideation in ways that can read as a guilt trip isn’t helping you any. It’s a pretty good indicator that the medication you are currently taking is insufficiently effective.

  240. 740
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Genuinely autistic people can learn social interaction. You can too if you only would be bothered.”

    Not if the slightest misstep will get me Maced.

  241. 741
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin

    Not if the slightest misstep will get me Maced.

    Of for flying fuck fucking sake. Seriously?

  242. 742
    SallyStrange

    Not if the slightest misstep will get me Maced.

    Straight-up, unadulterated, pure, 100% misogyny.

    Women are, in point of fact, not itching to mace people every minute of the day. If you are getting maced, or you fear you are going to get maced, THEN YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM. BECAUSE IF YOU ARE GETTING MACED THEN YOU HAVE PROBABLY ASSAULTED SOMEONE.

    FUCK OFF, BENJAMIN. NOW.

  243. 743
    Dianne

    Drowning’s easier than climbing five flights of stairs.

    Easier? Who said life was supposed to be easy? Turn your butt around and start climbing! Find a nice non-verbal cues primer for aspies and a misogyny 101 site and start reading. Yes, it’ll be on the test so study carefully. (And if you find yourself feeling that it isn’t metaphorical, get thee to an ER.)

  244. 744
    The Sailor

    Ben, the water table is just not that low where you live in FL. You’ve been over your head for awhile. Please stop.

    You’ve got teh attention you wanted, but you can get it easier ways.
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    Here’s a question for our cunning linguists: I wrote “you can get it easier ways”
    because that’s how I would say it.
    If I were to edit it, I would have written “you can get it IN easier ways”

    Thoughts?

  245. 745
    a_ray_in_dilbert_space

    OK, I’ve donned my hip waders and am wading into the cesspit.

    Ben, men and women are different, yes. They are socialized differently, and there are even some inherent differences.

    This notwithstanding, men and women do manage to live together and communicate, both verbally and nonverbally. I have been married to the same wonderful woman for nearly 20 years now. We fight sometimes, but we have grown over time to understand each other and to accept differences where we cannot.

    The key to all of this was respect, not assuming privelege, not trampling over each other.

    The question here is not whether women are going to change to accommodate your particular style of obtuse, priveleged cluelessness. It is not whether you can present yourself as so pitiful that someone will love you to save you from yourself. The question is whether you can learn. Does your learning curve have a positive slope. Because if it does not, you have a long, creepy, lonely future ahead of you.

    You have to learn to communicate with women. First, learn to respect and value them as peole. Talk to them with no designs, no illusions, no dreams and no aspirations. Just talk.

    I say this not to hurt you, but because I am genuinely concerned for you–and for any women in your life. Where you are right now wrt women is not healthy. You need to work through it.

    If you are finding women inscrutable, maybe it’s because they don’t want to be “scrute” by you when it is clear you don’t respect them as people.

  246. 746
    Pteryxx

    Yes, but a ‘yes’ that I’m incapable of recognizing is as good as a ‘no’.

    That’s why you ASK for a plain spoken “yes” and never assume it. Frankly, if I’m talking about something as important as intimacy with another person, I don’t want them hinting that I should read their mind. I don’t want that on my conscience.

    Want to know how I talked to my most recent partner?

    Me: Are you flirting with me?
    X: *blush* Maybe.
    Me: Okay, just make sure to let me know.

    Later:
    Me: Are you trying to flirt or just hug?
    X: Well…
    Me: You can flirt with me, you know, but I might flirt back.
    X: Okay.
    Me: You can move your hands further down if you like.
    X: *does so*
    Me: Mind if I touch you back?
    X: *takes my hands and moves them down*

    Real romantic, huh? Sheesh. (Xe’s gotten better about speaking plainly now that we know each other better, and I know xe’s shy, but I still ask “Are you okay with this?” whenever something changes. Even so, xe’ll say “But I’ve been flirting with you for hours…” and then we laugh about how long it took me to catch on.)

    Honestly, if the OTHER person wants intimacy with YOU, they’re motivated to keep trying as long as YOU give them a clear yes. If you say “I’m not sure if you’re flirting, but if you are, go right ahead.” then it’s THEIR job to say “Yes I am” – and they probably will.

  247. 747
    Jules

    Oh, come off it, Ben.

    Did I fucking mace you?

    Shut the fuck up, you dishonest, manipulative piece of shit.

    I love how you tried to blame me for your actions with me. Take responsibility for yourself, and stop acting like a fucking baby. You were told explicitly by several members of the Horde–including me–that you need to get to know a woman before you put the moves on her. You were told that you need to be ok with just being friends with a woman, even if you are attracted to her.

    And you still tried to put the moves on me. I avoided making a scene and calmly gave you gentle advice in written format later. No mace. No yelling. And I didn’t even expect you to rely on body language.

    And you came on here immediately afterward and started talking about blowing your brains out again.

    You don’t want help. You want absolution for bad behavior.

    Fuck you. You’re not getting it from me.

    Completely unrelated: I’m taking care of Newborn Charge. She’s being all squeaky and scrunchy-faced. And it’s crazy how much she reminds me of Toddler Charge (who is asleep, dog be praised). Basically, SQUEEEE!

  248. 748
    Algernon

    Oh I’m not going anywhere permanently, I just prefer not to be around when this cyclic shit is going around. It starts out with whining about women and ends up with threats to commit suicide. Every fucking time.

    All this means is there’s a person here that I don’t think is worth getting into it with because they’re just looking for players in the same old drama they want to have every damned time they get in a mood…

    and now that I’ve called that as I see it I can drop it because from now on my non-participation is itself a dedicated effort to refuse to feed the bad behavior.

  249. 749
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    More likely result:

    Me: Are you flirting with me?
    X: NO! What the hell is wrong with you? Get the fuck away from me!

  250. 750
    Walton

    Ben – if you are actively suicidal, please either call 1-800-273-8255 (the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline) or take yourself to the hospital.

    Your talk of suicidal ideation in ways that can read as a guilt trip isn’t helping you any. It’s a pretty good indicator that the medication you are currently taking is insufficiently effective.

    QFT.

  251. 751
    SallyStrange

    Algernon – Yay! I didn’t think you were considering swearing off the Horde permanently, but I also wasn’t sure.

    Jules – Scrunchy-faced newborns are totally SQUEEEE! Glad you’re enjoying yourself. I wish I lived closer to my nieces so I could help out with babysitting more.

  252. 752
    Algernon

    As for today I honestly didn’t expect to be online much. This meeting is not going as planned, and it turns out I’m not the one leading it visually today (which is nice because I kind of hate it when everyone looks at my desktop).

  253. 753
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Jules:

    It’s a good thing that babies are cute. I’m convinced it’s a defense mechanism for all species, otherwise they wouldn’t survive past infancy.

    Take Snip, for example (please! *old joke*) He’s a frustrating pain in the buttocks sometimes, he’s crazy and excitable and will get all up in my stuff and nibble where he’s not supposed to nibble and knock things off my shelf, but he’s so darn cute that all I can do is go “eeee!” when I look at him XD

    Babies are largely crying poop factories, but they’re so darn cute it’s no big deal.

  254. 754
    Pteryxx

    Sorry for stirring, Jules, Algernon. I’ll back off.

  255. 755
    The Sailor

    Ben, you are an attractive fellow, (I’ve seen pics), (not my type, I prefer women), you are accomplished in your field, you are taking difficult courses while teaching. Yeah Ben!

    Now stop it, please. You can get the attention you want here, just please change it from the All Ben, All The Time, channel.

    We all whine from time to time, it’s great that our community here is so supportive.

    Please Benjamin, tell us something good that happened today. Please?

  256. 756
    SallyStrange

    Me: Are you flirting with me?
    X: NO! What the hell is wrong with you? Get the fuck away from me!

    Indeed, that IS the more likely outcome, if you act in real life like you are acting right now–that is, like a complete asshole.

    However, it is a superior outcome than flirting for hours with someone who is not interested. Do you not see that? Do you not see how you put women in a double bind? If they don’t say no, they’re “leading you on.” If they do say no, you act like they maced you. BEN, YOU ARE A BONA FIDE MISOGYNIST. There is just no getting around it. You shouldn’t be dating any women anyway; you have no respect for women. Fix the whole misogyny thing first. THEN try to find a relationship.

  257. 757
    Algernon

    On to more important matters:

    I think “garden gnome” must be a colloquial way of referring to the culture of gnomes that dwell in gardens.

    This would mean one could still be a garden gnome while outside of the garden.

    The important distinction would be to make certain that Walton has a garden gnome of the variety most often seen in gardens, and not a house or a farm gnome.

  258. 758
    SallyStrange

    I’m applying for a job with a trucking company. Apparently it’s quite lucrative. I figure, why not? It’s pays better than baby-sitting.

  259. 759
    Algernon

    I’m applying for a job with a trucking company.

    Two friends of mine did that for years together, they worked as independent contractors though. They both really liked the work and it made a good living. It can be pretty stressful and tiring, but what job can’t?

  260. 760
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    See wrt the garden gnome thing – what distinguishes a garden gnome from any other gnome?

  261. 761
    SallyStrange

    Two friends of mine did that for years together, they worked as independent contractors though. They both really liked the work and it made a good living. It can be pretty stressful and tiring, but what job can’t?

    Well, and not having a job at all is also stressful and tiring. But yeah, thanks. Good to know people have done it and not gone completely crazy. This is more of a short-term thing to get me stable enough so I can get my shit together and apply to grad school. But I imagine it will be a useful skill for years to come.

  262. 762
    Algernon

    Well, Muse, the same thing that distinguishes a city person from a country person I guess. I mean if the gnome is dressed for the garden, and looks like they would be more at home in a garden…

  263. 763
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Well done, Rorschach.

    I’ve, uh, posted about your post – just to show my support:

    http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com/2011/10/rorschachs-post-about-erv-comments.html

  264. 764
    Jules

    Toddler Charge is lucky she’s so darn cute. She’s being a real pistol now that Baby is here.

    Baby’s lucky she’s cute. Otherwise, she’d be too boring, and I’d forget about her.

    Sally, have you tried SitterCity? I’ve gotten lots of work through that site.

  265. 765
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Algernon, but how do we distinguish garden clothing from windowsill clothing?

  266. 766
    Dianne

    Please Benjamin, tell us something good that happened today. Please?

    I’m not benjamin and was not asked, but I feel inordinately pleased with my day because I completed several tasks that were essentially done but waiting on that one little thing I hadn’t quite gotten to yet today. Plus I’m ridiculously pleased at having found a corner of my desk. I was beginning to think it was papers all the way down to the turtles.

  267. 767
    Algernon

    Woah… Rorschach. You kind of rock, Mr. And I hope your vacation wasn’t totally ruined by the flooding :(

  268. 768
    Algernon

    Algernon, but how do we distinguish garden clothing from windowsill clothing?

    Well now that is tougher because Walton may have a house gnome after all. I guess you’d have to put him in a garden and see how that feels to get a comparison :P

  269. 769
    The Sailor

    “Scrunchy-faced newborns are totally SQUEEEE”

    Ahh, another victim of the alien invasion. I feel like Kevin McCarthy sometimes.

  270. 770
    Algernon

    Good things: I managed to run to the store during lunch and get some birthday cards for my father and aunt (they have close birthdays) and got my contribution for OnionGirl’s thing done.

    These are all tasks which I had been letting weigh on me for no good reason so I’m down right excited to have gotten them done.

  271. 771
    SallyStrange

    Actually, it looks like I’m about to secure a regular baby-sitting gig from a local company. So that’s my good thing for today.

  272. 772
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    We also have to decide what kind of garden – is a flower garden gnome distinct from a vegetable garden gnome? What about a herb gnome?

  273. 773
    The Sailor

    Huh, gnomes. Who knew they were edible? Slightly crunchy, with a hint of house keys.

  274. 774
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ben:

    Me: Are you flirting with me?
    X: NO! What the hell is wrong with you? Get the fuck away from me!

    And after all of this time, you can’t take the hint that you’re an asshole? You really are dense. Once again, your failure to have a relationship is your problem alone. It’s not anyone’s fault that you “can’t” pick up on non-verbal cues (or that you lie about it, take your pick) and it’s no one’s fault that women don’t communicate the way you think they should.

    Fuck off, Ben. I want you to really, deeply, and seriously fuck right off.

    Since there’s the threats of suicide once again floating around, I’m gonna eat some pie (made by the Fires!) and get back to reading Snuff.

    *How many times have we seen that, Ben? Manipulative, too, what a fucking charmer.

  275. 775
    Algernon

    Oh Walton won’t eat the gnome, he’s a vegetarian.

  276. 776
    SallyStrange

    Ooooo, PIE! I’m going to eat some too–and it’s the SAME PIE!

    Heehee, awesome.

  277. 777
    SallyStrange

    Franc Hoggle and other ERV denizens have invaded Rorschach’s nice blog. Pity, that. Tramping bigotry all over the nice carpets.

  278. 778
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    I have pie too! It’s the pie I fed to people at Rhinebeck!

  279. 779
    chigau (違う)

    Gnomes aren’t precisely Real™.
    How do you know they’re made of meat?
    They could be made of peas and carrots.

  280. 780
    Dianne

    @778: I agree, but I have great confidence in Rorschah’s ability to eat them for lunch.

  281. 781
    The Sailor

    Dianne, et al, thank you for those happy times.
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    Perhaps I should have added “Nom, nom, nom, gnome” to my previous comment.
    +++++++++++++++++++
    Happy Monkey Benjamin, and all us people trying to figure out how life works.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

  282. 782
    Jules

    I want pie! And an herb gnome! I want a pie made of herb gnome!

  283. 783
    Algernon

    Well, ooh there’s a thought. Maybe gnomes are named after what they are made of!

  284. 784
    RichardAustin

    House gnomes are made of houses?

  285. 785
    Pteryxx

    House gnomes are made of houses?

    This would make a great art jam.

  286. 786
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “When life gives you crap, make Crap Golems, right?”

    “If I only could, sir. Believe I’d have a legion.”

  287. 787
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Sally:

    Ooooo, PIE! I’m going to eat some too–and it’s the SAME PIE!

    Okay, I didn’t take my own advice to flounce up out of here, but I have to say that the Fire family’s pie is utterly amazing. I don’t normally dig fruit pies*, but the pears were crisp and just sweet enough and OM NOM NOM NOM.

    I may not be able to stop myself from eating the other two pieces before Mr Darkheart gets home. Oops.

    The Sailor:
    Something good that’s happened today? Well, I’ve taken today (and tomorrow) off and so far I’ve napped and eaten pie. I’d definitely put today in the “plus” column.

    *Cooked, mushy fruit? Blech.

  288. 788
    First Approximation, Shevek

    A gnome for the PharynguCommune garden: Gnome Chomsky.

    (If you notice it says ‘The Garden Noam’ so I guess it’s not on a window sill).

  289. 789
    Algernon

    House gnomes are made of houses?

    House Gnomes: Now with more house!

  290. 790
    chigau (違う)

    Will this be the first TET to automatically go to page 2?

  291. 791
    Cipher

    House gnomes are made of houses?

    :)

    Topher Brink: You know what I like? Brown sauce. What’s it made of? Science doesn’t know!
    Adelle DeWitt: It’s made of brown.
    Topher Brink: Brown… Mined from the earth by the hardscrabble brown miners of North Brownderton.

  292. 792
    Pteryxx

    AHH! chigau, don’t jinx it! >_>

  293. 793
    RichardAustin

    Waitwaitwait…

    With a little cross breeding, if we put an herb garden around a house, and then put a window in, we can all win:

    The herb garden house window gnome.

  294. 794
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Walton, I think we’ve created a monster, or maybe a monster gnome.

  295. 795
    Algernon

    I don’t know, maybe house gnomes are so called for their love of syth bass and the very predictable use of the kick drum. They don’t mix with the dubstep gnomes I hear.

  296. 796
    chigau (違う)

    Everybody! Type faster!

  297. 797
    RichardAustin

    Muse:

    … monster gnome…

    GNOME VOLTRON!!!

    (I am -so- doing something with that.)

  298. 798
    chigau (違う)

    We once had a gnome that we used as a doorstop.

  299. 799
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    All I have to say is “Oh Dear.”

  300. 800
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Meh.

  301. 801
    SallyStrange

    Benjamin “Eunuch’s Guru” Geiger is a misogynist and doesn’t want to do anything about it.

  302. 802
    Dhorvath, OM

    SC,
    Put a word in as well.
    ___

    Hoggle is best left crooning to that angry inch of his.

    Speaking of things not to do.
    ___

    Tomaz,
    Welcome. Pull up a comment or three, we like people.
    ___

    Audley,
    Don’t take it up in tall buildings and you should do fine by Hans.
    ___

    Caine and Audley,

    I love making a mess of my kitchen

    So do I, but I prefer someone else cleans up.

    I love doing things in the kitchen, but I like them to involve cooking and cleaning relatively in tandem. I can’t cook to messy.
    ___

    Rev BDC,
    SG takes time off from time to time. I wouldn’t fret too much.
    _

    blf on the other hand seems somewhat concerning.
    ___

    I have very much enjoyed the musician jokes, but this, well this one is something else:

    What’s the difference between a drummer and a drum machine? You only have to punch the information into the drum machine once.

    ___

    lostinlace,
    How pleasant. Piss off. Respect is earned, you aren’t moving in that direction.
    ___

    I could get into my collectoin of conductor jokes.

    You do trains and music. That is lamentable.
    ___

    Open letter to NatGeo? Yes, this is where we are at isn’t it?
    ___

    John M,

    I think that every last bit of land on the planet is already owned, wild bits included.

    Yeah, but a lot of it is not owned like a city block is owned. Wilderness still exists and someone with skill to exploit it need not worry themselves about taxes. That so few play that game says something, yes?
    ___

    Benjamin,
    Is this a road you want to travel?
    I won’t address the fallacies that I saw from you in this discussion, others have said things that I agree with and likely in better form than I have to offer today. I do want to address one thing, body language interpretation improves the better you know an individual. Personally I don’t think anyone should be telling you what body language means, it’s not a universal language. Instead I would tell you that if you can’t read someone’s language it’s too early for you to be asking questions or making physical gestures of an intimate nature. Engaging with someone in a familiar fashion without the background to tell the difference between when that person relaxes and when that person tenses will result in times that you put other people in uncomfortable situations. Do you want to make other people uncomfortable? It’s not right to put your needs ahead of theirs.
    ___

    PSG, That is so nice to read.
    ___

    I have a garden gnome. It is in the garden right now, but it would retain it’s status wherever I located it. It’s a specific look, not a specific location.
    ___

    Jules, I am envious of you newborn charge. I find newborns fascinating.
    ___

    Sally Strange,
    I worked in trucking for five years. Lucrative? Yes, yes it was. I didn’t have the skin to remain.

  303. 803
    Walton

    Walton, I think we’ve created a monster, or maybe a monster gnome.

    Now I’m imagining a giant mutant were-gnome, complete with giant fishing-rod and creepy grin, rampaging through the streets. (Sort of like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters.)

  304. 804
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good evening
    Dinner was yummie. Homemade flatbread roasted in garlic-butter with tsatsiki and assorted olives and stuff. Hey, I could have invited the Walton, it even was vegetarian.

    Benjamin
    First of all:
    I tried explaining to you politely what the matter was with that stupid comic, that it fed into a toxic trope.
    You decided to ignore all of that. You never bothered talking about that trope.
    You fucking assume it to be true.

    Yes, but a ‘yes’ that I’m incapable of recognizing is as good as a ‘no’.

    Well, if she really means yes, she would be back. Problem could be that you probably never encountered any kind of “yes”, neither subtle nor open.

    Me: Are you flirting with me?
    X: NO! What the hell is wrong with you? Get the fuck away from me!

    Which is exactly what you’ve been claiming to want: Women talking plainly and openly, not giving you subtle hints but a loud, harsh “fuck off”.
    So, you’re not cool with women telling you politely and subtly that if you were the last man on earth they’d start growing cucumbers and you whine about them telling you so literally.
    You really can have your cake and eat it.

    As for your suicide threats: Stuff it where the sun doesn’t shine. I’ve had them from my mother and I’m not impressed anymore, not from her and not from somebody who’s mostly a stranger on the internet.

    Totally unrelated
    Jules
    Glad to see you again.
    How old is toddler-charge?
    I always had sympathy with my older one being a pain in the ass after her sister was born. Must be hard to be replaced as the baby.
    And yes, babies are oooooooooooooohhh cuuuuuuuute (once they’ve been washed, obviously)

  305. 805
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    BEN, YOU ARE A BONA FIDE MISOGYNIST. There is just no getting around it. You shouldn’t be dating any women anyway; you have no respect for women. Fix the whole misogyny thing first. THEN try to find a relationship.

    This used to be me. I was in the exact* same place Benjamin is right now, and it wasn’t even that long ago. Almost the exact same comments were made to me. Everyone is offering Benjamin the exact same metaphorical climbing rope I was offered (and eventually took). Will you take the rope Benjamin? Or will you continue to swat it away?

    I was miserable in the exact same way. And like Benjamin I was incapable of seeing what I was doing wrong. It was the women’s fault for being so mysterious and hard to figure out.

    And I was a misogynist. I’d get all mad whenever someone would imply I was a misogynist, and was even too thick to realize that I was confirming their suspicions by getting all mad about it.

    *Maybe not exactly- I didn’t actually touch any women unless they specifically and explicitly wanted me to…. I’m talking about the rejection angle.

    I’m not anywhere near where I want to be, even now, but I’m closer. Much closer.

    Women are smart. Infact, studies show that they’re every bit as smart as men. A woman, I’m pretty sure, can tell when a guy’s into her. If she’s into him, I’m gonna assume that she’s also smart enough to find a clear, obvious, non-mysterious way to let him know.

  306. 806
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Fuck, bloquote fail.

    BEN, YOU ARE A BONA FIDE MISOGYNIST. There is just no getting around it. You shouldn’t be dating any women anyway; you have no respect for women. Fix the whole misogyny thing first. THEN try to find a relationship.

  307. 807
    Algernon

    Woah, Rush Limbaugh supports the LRA? Wait, what?

    I could see arguing that we shouldn’t be going there, but what the fuck? And I don’t care what religion they are… they tear through places torturing and murdering people brutally, enslaving children, taking anything. Does he seriously mean that’s ok if they are Christian anyway? Oh wait, well… he’s Rush. But still, how does this guy even have a following with shit like that?

  308. 808
    Pteryxx

    For what it’s worth, TLC, I like the dark intense stare over a giant moose bone. >_> J’sayin.

  309. 809
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Do you want to make other people uncomfortable? It’s not right to put your needs ahead of theirs.”

    But it’s also not my duty to completely isolate myself from the world.

    “You decided to ignore all of that. You never bothered talking about that trope.
    You fucking assume it to be true.”

    Normally I’d say “I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em”, but that doesn’t quite fit. I calls ‘em as they is.

    “Which is exactly what you’ve been claiming to want: Women talking plainly and openly, not giving you subtle hints but a loud, harsh “fuck off”.”

    Followed by an arm-breaking by the nearest large, strong man.

  310. 810
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Mace? Arm Breaking by strong pissed off men? Either continue as you’re going or ‘isolate yourself from the world?’

    Oh come on. Are you speaking from experience or have you just watched too many ‘whacky misunderstandings’ type crap romantic comedies?

    Pteryxx: It’s not… THAT dark and intense is it?

  311. 811
    Dhorvath, OM

    Benjamin,
    You spend a lot of time telling people they like to erect strawpeople or accusing them of quotemining. Take a look at what you just replied to, then put it back in the context that it came out of. I gave you good advice about when to attempt a move from casual to intimate interactions, I didn’t tell you to avoid people altogether.

  312. 812
    tushcloots

    Just your garden variety monster house gnome …. ere, you offa that windowsill!

    I would have written “you can get it IN easier ways”

    I would say, “you can get it in EASIER, other ways.”

  313. 813
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Oh come on. Are you speaking from experience or have you just watched too many ‘whacky misunderstandings’ type crap romantic comedies?”

    I watched my younger(!) brother’s romantic life.

  314. 814
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “I gave you good advice about when to attempt a move from casual to intimate interactions”

    My point is that I can’t tell the difference.

  315. 815
    SallyStrange

    @ Dhorvath

    I worked in trucking for five years. Lucrative? Yes, yes it was. I didn’t have the skin to remain.

    What do you mean by “skin”?

    @ Benjamin Geiger

    Fucking isolate yourself from the world if that’s what it takes. At the very least, isolate yourself from TET.

    @Algernon

    Rush has a following because he appeals to people’s basest tribal instincts. I read about that in Mother Jones. Basically Rush is using it to promote the Obama as Muslim foreigner meme. Obama is sending in troops to fight the LRA because he just loves killing Christians. That’s why. Everything else is white noise in Rush’s brain.

  316. 816
    SallyStrange

    Hey Benjamin Motherfucking Geiger.

    Are you going to respond to anything the WOMEN are writing to you? I note that you are doing the classic asshole MRA move of responding only to things that men write to you.

    Are you going to cop to being a fucking MISOGYNIST?

    You do not get to be in a relationship with a woman until you stop acting like a woman-hater. FULL STOP. Shut the fuck up and fuck off.

  317. 817
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Are you going to respond to anything the WOMEN are writing to you? I note that you are doing the classic asshole MRA move of responding only to things that men write to you.”

    I’m responding to people who have constructive things to say. Gender doesn’t enter into it.

  318. 818
    Pteryxx

    Heh! @TLC, take it with a grain of salt as I *am* bad with expressions, but you certainly seemed to be staring intently at something off-camera (probably the computer screen) in those webcam photos. I forget what you called yourself a few threads ago… something about rangy with hunter stare that scares off the ladies. Personally I find people at their most attractive when they’re intent upon something they enjoy.

    (meta: Yep, this is me doing really preliminary flirting at TLC, specifically by making a direct personal compliment. Mostly it’s for entertainment, but I am sincere.)

  319. 819
    Lynna, OM

    Christopher Hitchens posted a new article in Slate today. He’s covering the issue of “is mormonism a cult” etc.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2011/10/is_mormonism_a_cult_who_cares_it_s_their_weird_and_sinister_beli.html?wp_login_redirect=0

    Excerpt:

    In any case what interests me more is the weird and sinister belief system of the LDS, discussion of which it is currently hoping to inhibit by crying that criticism of Mormonism amounts to bigotry.

    … Smith also announced that he wanted to be known as the Prophet Muhammad of North America, with the fearsome slogan: “Either al-Koran or the Sword.” He levied war against his fellow citizens, and against the federal government. One might have thought that this alone would raise some eyebrows down at the local Baptist Church. …

    …The first time I visited Salt Lake City, in 1970, the John Birch Society bookshop was almost a part of the Tabernacle. Ezra Taft Benson, later to be the president of the church, was a member of its board of 12 Apostles—and sought their approval—when he served in Eisenhower’s Cabinet for eight years. He was, if not a member of the Birch Society, a strong endorser. His pamphlet, “Civil Rights: Tool of Communist Deception” is well-remembered. This was the soil that nurtured Cleon Skousen and the other paranoid elements who in the end incubated Glenn Beck.* I merely make the point that the Mormon Church has a distinctly politicized record, and is in a weak position to complain when its leaders are asked political questions that arise directly from their membership.

    That bit about th close relationship to the John Birch Society jives nicely with what Steve Benson has written. Steve is Ezra Taft Benson’s grandson, and his insider view enlightening.

  320. 820
    SallyStrange

    So, me telling you that you are obviously a misogynist is not “constructive”?

    Do tell.

    Fucking asshole.

  321. 821
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Benjamin

    Followed by an arm-breaking by the nearest large, strong man.

    1.) Use blockquote
    2.) Use less drugs
    Seriously, this is godsdamnfuckingstupid.
    It’s of course also misogynistic, implying that every woman out there has a big strong owner who will tan your hide for messing with his property.
    You have obviously surrounded yourself with so many myths as to why you obviously fail utterly with respect to forging lasting connections with the opposite sex, and why this always is the woman’s fault and why you are the poor victim that you obviously can’t see behind them anymore.
    Get help
    Nope, you don’t have to isolate you from the world, but the world has a fucking right to isolate itself from you.
    If people don’t want to spend time with you, and it’s not the occasional person who just can’t stand you because people are different, it might be due to you.
    But it’s not something you have to endure, it’s something you can change. But you have to start it. There’s help out there and you can get it, but you have to admit that you need it.
    It’s a damn fucking hard thing to do and I know that, but you can do it.

  322. 822
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “So, me telling you that you are obviously a misogynist is not “constructive”?”

    No, it’s not.

  323. 823
    tushcloots

    Benjamin “Eunuch’s Guru” Geiger says:
    17 October 2011 at 9:12 pm
    “Do you want to make other people uncomfortable? It’s not right to put your needs ahead of theirs.”

    But it’s also not my duty to completely isolate myself from the world.

    It’s not your right to impose on others, and it’s not their duty to do fuck all for you.
    If it’s not your duty to isolate, then why are you doing exactly that?

    I’m sorry for intruding, people. I’m not sure I wven know what’s going on here, but this type of talk and behaviour reminds me of something not good.

  324. 824
    SallyStrange

    “So, me telling you that you are obviously a misogynist is not “constructive”?”

    No, it’s not.

    And why is that?

  325. 825
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “It’s of course also misogynistic, implying that every woman out there has a big strong owner who will tan your hide for messing with his property.”

    Who said anything about an ‘owner’? Nearest testosterone-addled beef mountain is just as likely.

    “But it’s not something you have to endure, it’s something you can change. But you have to start it. There’s help out there and you can get it, but you have to admit that you need it.”

    What sort of help? If it’s anything like the ‘help’ I’ve received here, I’d rather drag nails along a chalkboard for a few hours.

  326. 826
    Pteryxx

    Conversation isn’t one-sided. It’s about balance between the two people. It’s like using the front crawl stroke in swimming. You go across the pool switching off between your face in the water and gulping air on the fly. Back and forth. Like in a circle.

    Besides, if it wasn’t something maintained and built between 2 or more, then why not just talk to the wall? When you don’t let someone else talk, that’s how you are treating them – like a wall.

    Social Tips From an Aspie

  327. 827
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    I think I liked it better when we were talking about gnomes.

    Benjamin – I’d personally appreciate a response on why you feel the need to resort to suicidal talk whenever this comes up. What is your goal when posting it to the thread? I can promise you there is at least one person on this thread who has been in a conversation with someone when that person likely committed suicide. I promise you that there are people on this thread who have friends who committed suicide. What I see from you are what would likely be called suicidal ideation – I doubt you’re actively suicidal, or you’d be dead. Why are you inflicting that on everyone on this thread?

    Additionally, why do you talk about being rejected in terms of violence? Mace, arm breaking etc?

  328. 828
    Dhorvath, OM

    Sally Strange,
    I worked for two different transportation firms during a time when the places I worked were tremendously gender segregated and most of my coworkers thought that a good and right way for their workplace to be. So I got a heaping serving of sexist tropes which I fought regularly while trying to establish some sense of self to bring back home without contamination. I was miserable. This was 97-’02 and in S. Ontario, I have little reason to determine whether either the time or the proximity would decrease your experience, so I can’t tell you what you would find. I fear this may come across as insensitive compared to the things that others have to deal with, especially considering I had the luxury of just walking away and working in another industry, but I don’t have fond memories of trucking.
    ___

    You can’t tell the difference between talking about a class you share with another student and asking them what they want to do with their life, and from that to discussing what they want in bed? I am having trouble understanding what you mean aside from the difference between casual and intimate. Benjamin, you are better than this.

  329. 829
    SallyStrange

    “It’s of course also misogynistic, implying that every woman out there has a big strong owner who will tan your hide for messing with his property.”

    Who said anything about an ‘owner’? Nearest testosterone-addled beef mountain is just as likely.

    Disingenuous gaslighting technique. Just like a misogynist. You didn’t use the word “owner,” but the behavior you describe is that of a person who considers a woman his possession. You also assume that the woman in question wouldn’t object to this. That’s because you have a hard time seeing women as individuals. Again, like a misogynist.

    I ask you again, Benjamin: why is pointing out your inability to treat women with respect not “constructive” in a discussion about your desire to have an intimate relationship with a woman?

  330. 830
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “What is your goal when posting it to the thread?”

    Not to splatter on the sidewalk.

    “What I see from you are what would likely be called suicidal ideation – I doubt you’re actively suicidal, or you’d be dead. Why are you inflicting that on everyone on this thread?”

    Because otherwise I *would* be actively suicidal.

    “Additionally, why do you talk about being rejected in terms of violence? Mace, arm breaking etc?”

    Because I’ve seen it happen that way, more than once.

  331. 831
    tushcloots

    What sort of help? If it’s anything like the ‘help’ I’ve received here, I’d rather drag nails along a chalkboard for a few hours.

    Somebody call the waaaa-mbulance.

    People recommend help and reach out. You reply with excuses and self pity.
    I’m not kidding, this guy is a-social. He has no ability to understand anyone else’s point of view or feelings. He’ll be a stalker one day, I smell that very strongly here.

  332. 832
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Disingenuous gaslighting technique. Just like a misogynist. You didn’t use the word “owner,” but the behavior you describe is that of a person who considers a woman his possession. You also assume that the woman in question wouldn’t object to this. That’s because you have a hard time seeing women as individuals. Again, like a misogynist.”

    If I wanted someone gone, and a beef mountain offered to help, I wouldn’t turn him down.

    “I ask you again, Benjamin: why is pointing out your inability to treat women with respect not “constructive” in a discussion about your desire to have an intimate relationship with a woman?”

    Because [citation needed], that’s why. Also, it leaves no path out.

  333. 833
    Dhorvath, OM

    tushcloots,
    I would tend to agree save that I have also seen Benjamin reach some degree of contrition after previous bouts of self pity. He can do better.

  334. 834
    triskelethecat

    Just a few quick comments before Joe gets here for dinner:

    Jules has to come and stay longer next year. DDMFM and Sili also. And Walton must bring the garden gnome. I’ll bring my gargoyle Erimenthia to keep him/her company.

    Katherine, you DID look amazing in that skirt and yes, flouncy works as a word for that skirt. I was delighted that your nerves calmed down. Put it on and twirl anyway.

    Next year, I really hope to see more of the Horde. Josh, NO sleepovers that weekend. We want you, Audley and Mr, and the Fires at Rhinebeck.

    Richard Austin: please try to come? Please? Pretty Please? I’ll send more peanuts…

    As for the promiscuous phone: it’s doing well, decompressing from being handled by so many wonderful people. I haven’t changed the protection yet but may just get pink in honor of Nigel’s purchase (and my wool which is claimed to look like cotton candy).

    Back later to try to finish the comments from where I left off!

  335. 835
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    “I gave you good advice about when to attempt a move from casual to intimate interactions”

    My point is that I can’t tell the difference.

    You can’t tell the difference between casual and intimate interactions? Really? But you can, obviously, or you wouldn’t want one more than the other so badly.

    I suppose I shouldn’t be bothering. As said, I’ve been here before. The others are right, it’s less that you ‘can’t’ and more that you ‘don’t want to.’ It took me a long time, and a lot of this exact repetitious crap, these downward spirals into self pity and whining, before my thinking started changing. It’s hard to derail that train of thought, for the tracks are worn deep.

    “Getting more (positive) attention from women” should never be the goal or purpose when a man decides to educate himself about feminism and privilege in general, (and I believe if that is the sole purpose, than the effort at education will probably fail) but in my case, it seems to be what’s happening. Once I started thinking more about the woman’s perspective in all this, I was better able to consider how she might feel about things and thus present myself in better ways. I’m nowhere near where I want to be, but I’m better than I ever was now.

    Of course, if you treat it like just a hoop to jump over before you can get to the sexy fun times, you will fail.

  336. 836
    Eurasian magpie

    What sort of help?

    Therapy. Counseling. Coaching. Peer support (if you insist on being an honorary aspie then get thee to other aspies and learn from how they have coped. Or just simply listen to TLC ferchrissakes!)

  337. 837
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Dhorvath:

    Don’t take it up in tall buildings and you should do fine by Hans.

    I literally loled. XD

    (Yippie-ki-yay, motherfucker.)

    I love doing things in the kitchen, but I like them to involve cooking and cleaning relatively in tandem. I can’t cook to messy.

    I would do that too, but I find that if my attention gets divided amongst too many things, whatever I’m making suffers. I’m very much a “one step at a time” kind of cook, so the mess stays until whatever I’m making gets into the oven.

    Laughing Coyote:

    Everyone is offering Benjamin the exact same metaphorical climbing rope I was offered (and eventually took). Will you take the rope Benjamin? Or will you continue to swat it away?

    I know you’re new here, so I’ll give you a head’s up– this kind of shit has been going on for years at this point. As long as I’ve been around, anyway. It always follows the same pattern: Ben posts something misogynistic, people call him out, he refuses to listen or change his behavior, then he threatens suicide.

    The last time this happened (that I recall, I’ve been a little hit-or-miss with Teh Thread™ lately) was back in April.

  338. 838
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Who said anything about an ‘owner’? Nearest testosterone-addled beef mountain is just as likely.

    Nope, they’re fucking not.
    You’re erecting a massive strawman about
    A) How women behave
    B) How men behave
    You know, most people go through life flirting, dating, getting disapointments, getting lucky. Only few of them get “die Fresse poliert”*
    It’s fucking stupid to suggest that this was anyway remotely like reality.

    What sort of help? If it’s anything like the ‘help’ I’ve received here, I’d rather drag nails along a chalkboard for a few hours.

    Bye there, have fun.
    Seriously, you don’t want any help. You want to wallow in your misery.
    What help you can get? You mean like psychiatrists? Oh yes, and those people here who explained sympathetically where you went wrong.
    You know, there are dating sites out there. No need to read body-language, no fear of “beef-mountains”, but you don’t want that. It would be easy.
    I remember a discussion with you about your inability to take a sandwich with you to college and I remember that you had “perfectly rational” arguments as to why all of our advice was bullshit. Because you don’t really want to try anything, you want to whine an you want other people to pity you.

    *their teeth knocked in

  339. 839
    SallyStrange

    @ Dhorvath

    Oh, well, I’ve come to expect a certain degree of sexism in the workplace. I mean, I just did this training with a private security company. The presenter, who was the only woman in the room besides me, basically used the section on sexual harassment to sort of beg me not to make too big a deal out of stupid shit people say on the radio. I made a point of loudly inquiring whether nut-kicking was frowned on as a response. I have a tendency to choose male-dominated fields, for whatever reason. Except when I was working in childcare. I thought you meant something unusual.

  340. 840
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “You’re erecting a massive strawman about
    A) How women behave
    B) How men behave”

    It would be a strawman if it didn’t actually happen.

    “It’s fucking stupid to suggest that this was anyway remotely like reality.”

    Except that it *was* reality.

    “What help you can get? You mean like psychiatrists?”

    Already seeing one. Two, actually.

    “Oh yes, and those people here who explained sympathetically where you went wrong.”

    Sympathetically, like “YOU EVIL MISOGYNIST YOU NEED TO GO DIE IN A FIRE”?

    “You know, there are dating sites out there. No need to read body-language, no fear of “beef-mountains”, but you don’t want that. It would be easy.”

    Tried it. Trying it. No luck so far.

  341. 841
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Just spent one hour with Boy teaching him to drive his new (to him) Hyundai Accent. It must be a Spanish Accent as it has a Manuel Transmission. Thought the car is actually named Attila (as in, ‘Attila the Hun-dai). He can now start on a fairly steep hill with only a 50% chance of tyre squeel and less than a 1.5 metre driftback. This is actually quite good for his second lesson.

  342. 842
    tushcloots

    Dhorvath, OM says:
    17 October 2011 at 9:43 pm
    tushcloots,
    I would tend to agree save that I have also seen Benjamin reach some degree of contrition after previous bouts of self pity. He can do better.

    Okay, thanks, I suspected there’s history here.

  343. 843
    Dhorvath, OM

    Sally,
    Well, it was unusual compared to the other jobs I have had and so thought it might be a transport problem.

  344. 844
    Pteryxx

    Heck with this. If you can’t understand why respecting someone is a NECESSARY CONDITION to having a relationship with them at all, much less an intimate one, then yeah… you shouldn’t be trying. There’s another person involved here, and THEY have to feel safe with YOU.

  345. 845
    SallyStrange

    “I ask you again, Benjamin: why is pointing out your inability to treat women with respect not “constructive” in a discussion about your desire to have an intimate relationship with a woman?”

    Because [citation needed], that’s why.

    Ah. So is this your clever way of saying, “Nu uh, I am not a misogynist, because I’m not, that’s why, so there”? If you aren’t a misogynist in your heart of hearts, well, you do a damn good impression of one. So good that any woman would mistake you for the real article. And don’t think we don’t run into them. Like, on a daily basis.

    Also, it leaves no path out.

    There is a way out. But it involves you doing work and changing your behavior so you’re not a dishonest, manipulative, self-pitying asshole.

  346. 846
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “If you can’t understand why respecting someone is a NECESSARY CONDITION to having a relationship with them at all”

    How did it become taken for granted that I don’t respect people?

  347. 847
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    DR Audley: This is embarassing, and I hope it doesn’t change anyone’s opinions of me either, but I kept it up for years too. I know I would have never become a creeper or stalker or anything, but the way I used to think and talk (and still kinda look), no one would have been blamed for mistaking me for one. I suppose the biggest lesson learned from all of it, for me anyways, is that you don’t have to be a rapist, stalker, or outright woman hater, to be a misogynist.

    There is hope for Benjamin, but sadly it’s a long hard path, and most people don’t seem to make the mental changes I did. It is difficult.

    Benjamin in all my years of being a loser though, no beef mountain has ever tried to break my arm for talking to the wrong girl. Never been maced or slapped. These are all silly situations that may occasionally happen in reality, but are more likely to be seen in a lazily written Rom Com.

    Also, if one IS getting these reactions from women, then maybe they should alter their approach, and definitely no one should be trying to emulate it.

  348. 848
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    It would be a strawman if it didn’t actually happen.

    Yes, everything happens somewhere. If you go to the local bikers’ club with that kind of stupid, you’ll confirm your biases.

    Sympathetically, like “YOU EVIL MISOGYNIST YOU NEED TO GO DIE IN A FIRE”?

    Yep, people have called you a misogynist. That’s because for all I can tell, you’Re behaving exactly like one. You’d fit in perfectly over there at ERV’s.
    To my memory, nobody has suggested that you die in a fire.
    But lots of people, like TLC, like Walton, Dhorvath, Jules, I include myself, have offered you kind advice, much more politely given than to the usual misogynist.

    So, dating sites aren’t working for you yet? Maybe it is time for you to ask yourself what’s wrong with you instead of assuming that it was the women who don’t communicate clearly, men who threaten you with violence, everybody else.
    If no woman finds you attractive, it’s not their fault. They don’t owe you any attention.

  349. 849
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Also, if one IS getting these reactions from women, then maybe they should alter their approach, and definitely no one should be trying to emulate it.”

    I don’t get those reactions, because I barely talk to anyone. That’s what confuses me about the reaction I’ve gotten: I don’t do any of these things.

    It has, however, happened to my brother (who was married, widower-ed (is there a word for that?), and now has a live-in girlfriend, with whom he has a son). So obviously he’s seen plenty of success. And, last I checked, he doesn’t live in a movie or a novel.

  350. 850
    SallyStrange

    How did it become taken for granted that I don’t respect people?

    -you didn’t respect Jules, apparently. And when she told you so, rather than taking it to heart, you got all whiny and self-pitying and decided that you’d rather have a crowd of sympathizers justify your inconsiderate actions.

    -the multiple suicide threats demonstrate a lack of respect for people here who have loved ones who have committed suicide. Clearly, since you’ve been using this tactic for years now, you’re not actually suicidal. You’ve just discovered that it’s a good way to get a lot of attention. You use suicide threats to manipulate people into treating you nicely and offering you lots of helpful suggestions

    -you are incapable of respecting a woman’s right to say no. You have all these conditions that must be met for her to say no and have you hear it. She can’t be “stringing you along.” She can’t just come out and say, “No, fuck off,” because that would be like macing you. It has to be just right for Goldilocks the Misogynist Geiger, otherwise it’s “Oh well, I can’t read body language, how should I know, I can’t believe she maced me!”

    -you’ve been deliberately ignoring me and my extremely well-supported charge of misogyny for pages now. I pretty much had to metaphorically jump in front of you and scream in your fucking face to be acknowledged. And you want me to believe that this has nothing to do with gender? Blatant dishonesty is disrespectful.

    I’m ready, dude. I’m unemployed, and it’s hard, and I’m kinda depressed, but at least I’m not a horrible person, like you are. I’d advise getting better psychiatrists, except that they probably are good. It’s just that you haven’t yet decided that it’s worth it to stop being an asshole. You are fouling up the thread and I am ready to give the full-on troll treatment, because that is what you are acting like, until you give it up or go away. I have all the time in the world. I just hope that you are sufficiently respectful of the other posters here that you will stop trying to monopolize this common virtual space with The Benjamin Geiger Show. It’s a boring-ass show to us. Surely it’s fascinating to you and your psychiatrists, but we are not your psychiatrists. Kindly do not press us into service in fixing all your problems for you. That would be the respectful thing to do.

  351. 851
    RichardAustin

    triskelthecat:

    Richard Austin: please try to come? Please? Pretty Please? I’ll send more peanuts…

    Bribery will get you… well, I’m not sure, me being gay and all. But it might get me across the country.

    Actually, I would legitimately have gone to the meetup, but my work schedule’s a bit full this year. I’m working two jobs (consulting and day job), I don’t have a whole lot of vacation time built up yet, and so far I’ve done Maui in July, Montana in August, and am planning Blizzcon in October, Redmond in November, and Guerneville for NYE. If I take any more time off, I think I’m going to get smacked by my boss :)

    Hence why I had to skip out. But I’m glad everyone got together, as it bodes well for future such trips when I’m not trying to single-handedly save the world (and be home by bed time). It’s also good to build the psychological safety net a bit, and I know a lot of people here need that. So, yay team!

  352. 852
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin, you’re saying that posting here, about suicidal ideation, is all that is preventing you from actually committing suicide? If so, frankly, you may need more help than the thread can give. Especially since you are stating that our help is like nails on a chalkboard. I have trouble reconciling those two statements.

    Let me say that I wasn’t kidding when I said I’d been on the other end of the line from someone who had taken a great deal of pills and alcohol and was unwilling to call emergency services. That session ended abruptly. I do that as volunteer work. I don’t expect to be doing crisis line work here, and it’s somewhat unfair to expect it of us every month or so.

  353. 853
    The Sailor

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/16/cain-on-abortion-no-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/

    Cain is not able. (but don’t we wish he was Abel?)

    Related: “sin is crouching at the door”

    What, is it a musician!? Sin’s welcome anytime!

    We have grog and pullets and swill, oh my!

  354. 854
    Dhorvath, OM

    What do you mean you don’t do any of these things? Any of what things?

  355. 855
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “you are incapable of respecting a woman’s right to say no. You have all these conditions that must be met for her to say no and have you hear it. She can’t be “stringing you along.””

    Would you blame a deaf guy for not hearing a spoken “no”, with nothing else?

    “She can’t just come out and say, “No, fuck off,” because that would be like macing you.”

    Now you’re just making shit up.

    “And you want me to believe that this has nothing to do with gender? Blatant dishonesty is disrespectful.”

    And claiming that it’s about gender is dishonest.

  356. 856
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    The Laughing Coyote:

    This is embarassing, and I hope it doesn’t change anyone’s opinions of me either, but I kept it up for years too.

    It doesn’t change my opinion of you at all. We all learn, we all grow, and it takes a hell of a lot of guts to admit that you were wrong.

    Sally:
    I ♥ you. Hard.

  357. 857
  358. 858
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “What do you mean you don’t do any of these things? Any of what things?”

    I don’t assault women. I don’t continue in personal discussions with women longer than necessary, just in case I’m bothering them. I don’t knowingly do things that disturb women. I don’t consciously put my needs above theirs (quite the opposite, in fact).

    So it bothers me when people accuse me of doing all of these things, just because I say I’m not capable of reading body language.

  359. 859
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Wow, hey, look at that. Months of putting up with Benjamin here even though the cyclic depressive stuff was kind of triggery, but this is the last goddamn straw and I’ve had to killfile him. How the hell is it possible to hang out at Pharyngula and yet manage to justify such rock solid misogyny?

  360. 860
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Benjamin, you’re saying that posting here, about suicidal ideation, is all that is preventing you from actually committing suicide? If so, frankly, you may need more help than the thread can give. Especially since you are stating that our help is like nails on a chalkboard. I have trouble reconciling those two statements.”

    Two sets of people. Two types of ‘help’.

  361. 861
    Algernon

    TLC, you’ve been great from what I’ve seen of you. I enjoyed your post about the impromptu libations after your hunt. I don’t hunt, but that’s the sort of instinctive thing I tend to do. Meh… harmless enough.

  362. 862
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    “Also, if one IS getting these reactions from women, then maybe they should alter their approach, and definitely no one should be trying to emulate it.”

    I don’t get those reactions, because I barely talk to anyone. That’s what confuses me about the reaction I’ve gotten: I don’t do any of these things.

    It has, however, happened to my brother (who was married, widower-ed (is there a word for that?), and now has a live-in girlfriend, with whom he has a son). So obviously he’s seen plenty of success. And, last I checked, he doesn’t live in a movie or a novel.

    Color me confused now. You don’t do any of these things? What things? Wasn’t there talk of inappropriate back stroking a while back?

    OK, so your brother had some bad luck, but he’s all better now. I have to question what he possibly did to get maced and/or beaten up by a beefmountain, but he’s also apparently seen plenty of success? So… what?

    He’s your brother, not you. My younger brother is nothing like me, mister professional with his own house and a jawb and everything. His approaches to women would not work from me, and vice versa. Because he’s a different person.

    I can say one thing, I have a whole new appreciation for all the kindly internet folks I did this same shit to, leading them around in my stupid downward-spiraling dance. I wish I could individually apologize to each and every one of them and tell them “I get it now! Your time and effort wasn’t wasted!”

  363. 863
    SallyStrange

    “you are incapable of respecting a woman’s right to say no. You have all these conditions that must be met for her to say no and have you hear it. She can’t be “stringing you along.””

    Would you blame a deaf guy for not hearing a spoken “no”, with nothing else?

    Is this it? Is this your pathetic excuse for an excuse? I want you to think really hard about what it means to say that you are so incapable of interpreting verbal and nonverbal communication, that you are like a deaf person.

    And you want to be in a relationship? No, I’m sorry, it doesn’t work that way. As I said before, you don’t get to be in a relationship until you can treat women with respect. What you are saying here is that you are constitutionally incapable of hearing other people. Well, in order to respect a person, you have to first be able to HEAR them so you can know who they are and what they want. If you can’t do that, then NO RELATIONSHIP FOR YOU, BUB!

    “She can’t just come out and say, “No, fuck off,” because that would be like macing you.”

    Now you’re just making shit up.

    No, I’m really not. You brought up the mace. Did your brother get maced after harassing a woman, or are YOU making it up? Apparently there is a strong association in your mind between verbal rejection from a woman and physical violence. To me, this says that you are a dangerous person, because if you perceive verbal rejection as physical violence, what is going to prevent you from responding “in kind,” according to your twisted worldview?

    “And you want me to believe that this has nothing to do with gender? Blatant dishonesty is disrespectful.”

    And claiming that it’s about gender is dishonest.

    Because “I’m not a misogynist, because that’s why.” Right. You said that before.

    Weren’t you supposed to be smart and skeptical and stuff like that?

    Another telltale sign of a misogynist: he becomes incapable of applying critical reasoning to his beliefs about women and relationships.

    I ♥ you too, Audley. :)

  364. 864
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin – you are actively hurting people with the suicide talk. I gave you the number for the National Suicide Hotline. I’ll give it to you again. This is my crisis line hat Ben – if I take you at your word, and the only thing preventing you from suicide is posting about it to this board, then you have serious problems that are not currently being address by your psychiatrist. you need more intensive hep than a community of people on the net can give you. </crisis line hat> Benjamin, can you see that you are causing problems for people on the board when you do this? Kristinc just mentioned it, I’ve just mentioned it, and as the PET and Rhinebeckers can tell you, I’m not prone to talk about my personal life.

  365. 865
    SallyStrange

    “What do you mean you don’t do any of these things? Any of what things?”

    I don’t assault women. I don’t continue in personal discussions with women longer than necessary, just in case I’m bothering them. I don’t knowingly do things that disturb women. I don’t consciously put my needs above theirs (quite the opposite, in fact).

    So it bothers me when people accuse me of doing all of these things, just because I say I’m not capable of reading body language.

    If you don’t do any of those things, then why the fuck are you afraid of getting maced? LOGIC: IT IS YOUR FRIEND.

  366. 866
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Today I, um, wow I am outing myself as a huge nerd but I sorted my soap. I have a passion for high-quality handmade soaps and I tend to collect them in a tub in the kitchen because for quite a while I bought them much faster than I could use them and created a large and wonderful backlog. I had to rewrap many half-bars in plastic wrap and label them to replace the tattered bits of original wrappers.

    I came across some bars that must be the very last in existence from some excellent soapmakers who have since closed up shop, which made me sad (yet happy at the same time because I forgot I had those treasures).

  367. 867
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    I don’t knowingly do things that disturb women. I don’t consciously put my needs above theirs (quite the opposite, in fact).

    That’s because you’re very, very good at ignoring all signs (including full verbal instructions) that you do.

    So it bothers me when people accuse me of doing all of these things, just because I say I’m not capable of reading body language.

    No, people accuse you of those things because of all the shit you’re writing here.
    You say you can’t read body language, but you obviously don’t bother learning.
    You say you won’t ask because you are afraid of being maced or having your arm broken.
    So you obviously want women to come over to you and tell you exactly what they want.
    And you think they owe you that because you can’t be bothered with anything else.
    You stylize yourself as the poor, poor victim who’s treated poorly in meat-space and over here.
    And you wonder why people get that impression of you?

    Sally
    No idea how to make those hearts, but you deserve one.

  368. 868
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “If you don’t do any of those things, then why the fuck are you afraid of getting maced? LOGIC: IT IS YOUR FRIEND.”

    I’m not afraid of getting maced because I don’t do any of those things.

  369. 869
    SallyStrange

    I wish I could individually apologize to each and every one of them and tell them “I get it now! Your time and effort wasn’t wasted!”

    I don’t think I was one of those people, but I’ll accept your apology in proxy for all the other times I’ve done the same dance with someone else.

  370. 870
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    BTWs, the reason why Benjamin’s suicidal ideation and depressive talk is triggering for me is because I’m frequently suicidal. I have completely untreated depression.

    So I both understand the incredible torment depression can be *and* find it very hard to feel sorry for someone with access to treatment who is choosing to use references to their disease in a manipulative way. It would be manipulative if the disease in question were cancer or gout, and it’s manipulative when it’s depression.

    I don’t talk about being suicidal to people I care about because I feel bad enough about myself at those times without hurting and frightening people I love.

  371. 871
    SallyStrange

    Oh, this is rich.

    “If you don’t do any of those things, then why the fuck are you afraid of getting maced? LOGIC: IT IS YOUR FRIEND.”

    I’m not afraid of getting maced because I don’t do any of those things.

    Well, then, if you aren’t afraid of getting maced, why did you write THIS

    “Genuinely autistic people can learn social interaction. You can too if you only would be bothered.”

    Not if the slightest misstep will get me Maced.

    you lying motherfucker?

  372. 872
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “I don’t talk about being suicidal to people I care about because I feel bad enough about myself at those times without hurting and frightening people I love.”

    I *do* talk about it, because I know they’ll feel even worse if I go through with it.

  373. 873
    Dhorvath, OM

    Benjamin,
    I would ask if you know about learned helplessness? You are coming across like you want to be incapable of understanding other people, as if that lack of understanding can then be used as a shield by you to make being alone easier. The trouble is that same shield is used by people who hurt women, some of them without being consciously aware of it. Is this an association that you are comfortable with?
    I would also ask how you do while shopping. Do you know when to put your hand out for change? Do you know where to put your purchases? Non verbal communication is a huge part of everyone’s daily life, you have skills, you just aren’t seeing how to apply them. This is something you can improve.

  374. 874
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Well, then, if you aren’t afraid of getting maced, why did you write THIS

    “Genuinely autistic people can learn social interaction. You can too if you only would be bothered.”

    Not if the slightest misstep will get me Maced.

    you lying motherfucker?”

    What part of “because I don’t do those things” don’t you understand?

  375. 875
    SallyStrange

    Egad, Kristinc, that is rough. I am so sorry; I can stop dragging this out if you want. Or is your killfile functioning?

    Basically BG needs to stop now; I suppose if I stop dancing with him he’ll quit soon enough. He really is just after attention (not help) at this point; that much is obvious. And yeah, it is really hard to feel sorry for him.

    Mmmm… pear pie…

  376. 876
    ChasCPeterson

    ah…hmmm…oops. Another Geiger thread?
    I’ll pass.
    Would someone please let me know when the conversation gets back to Walton again?

    thx

  377. 877
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “I would also ask how you do while shopping. Do you know when to put your hand out for change? Do you know where to put your purchases?”

    Yes, through years of practice.

    “Non verbal communication is a huge part of everyone’s daily life, you have skills, you just aren’t seeing how to apply them.”

    Oh?

    “This is something you can improve.”

    How?

  378. 878
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ben:

    I don’t continue in personal discussions with women longer than necessary, just in case I’m bothering them. I don’t knowingly do things that disturb women. I don’t consciously put my needs above theirs (quite the opposite, in fact).

    Nope, not according to Jules. Unless you’re saying that she is the one who lied about your, ah, interaction with her. It’s funny, I trust Jules a hell of a lot more than you. So, what is it? Are you a quiet, awkward guy who never threatens women or are you the dude who acted inappropriately with Jules?

    You can’t pull this shit anymore, Ben. You know perfectly well where the line is, but you’re willing to cross it. I just can’t figure out why you would bother at this point– you have to know that no woman is going to put up with your misogynistic and creepy bullshit.

    As far as isolating yourself? Well, my TET life would be a hell of a lot less annoying, but if you bother to actually read what EVERY-fucking-ONE has written, no one has suggested this.

    You’ll be able to convince me that you’re a respectful guy when you stop pulling this shit and start listening to people. Or totally remove yourself from this space. But you won’t ever do that ‘cos you’d rather feed off the attention (negative or otherwise) that you get here. Maybe you should just get a fucking dog or something and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

  379. 879
    Dhorvath, OM

    Benjamin,
    I think the shoe fits well in both cases. The slightest misstep means mace? In social interaction? That’s an extravagant claim.

  380. 880
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Sally, my killfile is fine, don’t feel like you have to stop on my account.

  381. 881
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Teenage Mutant Ninja Noses

  382. 882
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    But you ARE afraid of getting maced or beaten up, because you YOURSELF brought those up as obstacles and/or things preventing you.

    Algernon: Thanks.

    A side note about internet dating: It’s sorta working for me. I met a girl I like and have fun with. But, and this is crucial: You STILL must work on the veiled misogyny first. The girl I met had all kinds of stories for me, about some of the creepy bastards she came across online. Women must be on their guard there too.

    It was only after the education I got here that I was able to figure out concrete ways to demonstrate that I respect her and her boundaries, and thus if I had tried online dating before the necessary education, I STILL would have failed just as hard online as in meatspace. And there was no mystery in her responses either. None at all. Nothing to interpret or figure out, no mysterious feminine wiles. She made it VERY clear what she thought of me.

  383. 883
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Nope, not according to Jules. Unless you’re saying that she is the one who lied about your, ah, interaction with her.”

    Obviously you ignored the “knowingly” and “consciously” in my statement.

  384. 884
    SallyStrange

    The part I don’t understand, Benjamin, is where you bring up getting maced as a possible obstacle to learning better social interaction skills. Unless you truly believe that you might do something so egregious that someone really would mace you, then you have no reason to bring it up.

    Perhaps you were just offering bullshit excuses as to why you can’t be bothered to learn nonverbal communication, you just want some pussy attached to a psychiatrist/mommy robot? Fits right in with the hypothesis that you are perfectly capable of understanding nonverbal communication when you want to, you just don’t want to.

    So which is it? You are genuinely scared of getting maced because you think you’re likely to harass a woman, or you were making up excuses for not understanding nonverbal communication?

  385. 885
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    I *do* talk about it, because I know they’ll feel even worse if I go through with it.

    Fucking manipulative asshole. Really. Putting the burden onto us, telling us that we have to endure your suicide-posts because if we refuse to do so you you will “punish” us.
    That’s sick.
    Have you mentioned this to our therapist? Or don’t you bother because it doesn’t fit your neat little narrative of poor Ben the victim?
    you are actively inflicting harm onto other people now. You have passed “making uncomfortable” at approximately the speed of light.
    So, this is your choice: You can stop it, showing that you do respect other people’s boundaries, or you can leave it.

  386. 886
    SallyStrange

    Obviously you ignored the “knowingly” and “consciously” in my statement.

    So you were unaware of what you were doing. That doesn’t make it any less wrong. In fact, your unawareness is part of the problem. You don’t get to use that as an excuse any more.

  387. 887
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Giliell:

    No idea how to make those hearts, but you deserve one.

    &hearts; gives you ♥

    :)

  388. 888
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “In fact, your unawareness is part of the problem.”

    No shit, Sherlock. That’s pretty much what I said at the outset.

    “You don’t get to use that as an excuse any more.”

    If I could learn, I would. I’ve been trying to learn since I was a teenager, and you’ve seen how well it’s gone.

  389. 889
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin – I notice the lack of response to my point about the suicide threats.

  390. 890
    Pteryxx

    ♥ oh neat. And here I was using charmap all this time.

  391. 891
    SallyStrange

    Benjamin – I notice the lack of response to my point about the suicide threats.

    QFT

  392. 892
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Dr Audley: Thanks. I am actually still in touch with a few who have tried to educate me. There are two women in particular from completely unrelated internet communities I’m thinking of. Knowing both of them, they’ll appreciate the “I get it now, your time and effort wasn’t wasted!” far more than the apologies themselves.

  393. 893
    Dhorvath, OM

    Benjamin,
    So you do navigate social situations without having someone hold your hand. You can take a test, participate in class, navigate shopping, get a new driver’s license, hell you even go to social groups like Toastmasters, yes? Yet somehow you have convinced yourself you are doing this solely based on verbal cues. You aren’t. And those same nonverbal skills that you use in daily life can also alert you to changes in how a person is responding. Note that I said changes, there is no guarantee that it will tell you what they are thinking and what has changed about how they feel, but it’s a good indicator that someone is feeling different if their physical manner changes drastically.

    You dance this dance daily, you don’t even know you do it. Most of us don’t know we do it, and for that matter most of us either don’t know what others are feeling and those of us who think we do are often dramatically wrong. Not too many people can pull off cold reading, eh?

    So what to do with that? Branch out, what you have done so far has stagnated, it’s not forcing you to enhance or broaden your social eptness, and it could be that it is actually making you worse. You want to be better, so make some changes. Like your teaching gig, that’s a good thing and if you focus on it you can learn a lot from it.

  394. 894
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    kristinc
    Ahh, another soap-lover. Every time I go to the soouth of France, I bring back more than I can use in the meantime. A little lasts so long…
    There’s a fun project I made with daughter #1 recently:
    I grated some soap for sensitive skin, then we added just a little bit of water, food colouring, reaaaaaal precious gems and worked woth it like with play dough. Finally we rolled it in a little glitter. Extremely cheap, lots of fun and soap kids love.

  395. 895
    SallyStrange

    Also the lack of response to this:

    But you ARE afraid of getting maced or beaten up, because you YOURSELF brought those up as obstacles and/or things preventing you.

    Caught in a lie, but he just tries to sail on by as if nothing happened. He’s a gaslighter par excellence.

  396. 896
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Benjamin – I notice the lack of response to my point about the suicide threats.”

    That’d be because I missed that post.

    What sort of response do you want?

  397. 897
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Caught in a lie, but he just tries to sail on by as if nothing happened.”

    Because it’s only a ‘lie’ if you’re equivocating.

  398. 898
    tushcloots

    Hey, Laughing Coyote. Sounds a bit like me, too, in a way. I was(and still am) intimidated by women, and everybody, for that matter. I suffered from anxiety disorders and felt nervous and ‘not quite in touch’ around everyone. It was a mystery to me how to relax and be yourself without being worried about how I thought everyone was seeing me – uncomfortable and a little bit weird.

    It is not a fun place to be, but I at least knew it was me, I was missing something, it wasn’t that others were faulty, or playing mind games. It sure seemed like it sometimes, though.
    Luckily I’m very non violent, like most people, and not unaware of how others deserve to be treated.
    That said, it’s frustration like nothing else; not being able to do the thing I needed most in my life, which was/is relating to, and interacting with, other people on all levels.

    It is lonely. Benjamin certainly needs to learn to take responsibility to change himself. He has to learn that no one can tell him anything, or show him anything that will fix things.

    He has to enroll in a life skills course with role playing, or a self-esteem course – that sort of thing. There are lots of people that have difficulties, and working through them with others of the same uncertainties, with therapists, is excellent.

    I don’t know if you are anything like me and what I went through, Benjamin, but just how to act ‘normal’ has always been a mystery to me. Just don’t start doing heroin and drinking like I did. That’s a fucking bitch(sorry!) to deal with on top of everything else.

    I sure know what it’s like when you can’t explain, or people don’t seem to be able to understand. Then one day I asked myself, “Why do you spend so much time and energy looking for excuses as to why you’re fucked, Mike? If you put half the thought into convincing yourself that you could deal with shit as you do convincing everyone around you that you can’t, what would happen? Why do you feel the drive to defend your sickness, and convince everyone to feel sorry for you, Mike?”

    Why did I? I suddenly noticed that that was my full time job, my purpose to life. I started to notice other losers that were quite proud of themselves, or at least self confident, and I thought, why can’t I be one too?

    Don’t know if you relate at all to what I’m saying, Benjamin. Now I need help, though. I was too successful. Now I think I’m better than everybody! Just kidding, always thought that. Now I know were all unsure of things sometimes, and better than everyone else sometimes, and mostly, just bags of mostly water with some shortcomings, some strengths, and liking the sound of our own voice best of all! That’s what people tell me all. the. time.

  399. 899
    SallyStrange

    I grated some soap for sensitive skin, then we added just a little bit of water, food colouring, reaaaaaal precious gems and worked woth it like with play dough. Finally we rolled it in a little glitter. Extremely cheap, lots of fun and soap kids love.

    Oooh, that sounds like fun. I’ll have to remember that. I have an interview with a babysitting agency this Wednesday.

    The trucking thing didn’t work out, Dhorvath. Oh well. They wanted me to come and spend 17 days at trucking school in Salt Lake City–unpaid. I passed.

  400. 900
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Okay, I’m off to dinner with the in-laws. $10 says this shit is still going on when I get back.

    (I’m also off to find the tiniest violin to play the saddest song for Ben. We’re all such meanies who just don’t understand how terribly hard it is to be a flaming asshole!)

  401. 901
    Dianne

    Quantam physics abstract of the day.

  402. 902
    SallyStrange

    But you are equivocating Geiger.

    “I am not afraid of getting maced”

    is logically inconsistent with

    “I cannot learn social interactions because the slightest misstep will get me maced.”

    Which is it?

  403. 903
    SallyStrange

    Enjoy your dinner, Audley! Mr. Darkheart is awesome, I’m guessing his parents must be too.

  404. 904
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Ben, get help. Get better meds.

    This recent series of OMG Lunch FAIL and OMG Exam FAIL and OMG Dating FAIL basically shows that you cannot do anything but catastrophise your problems, and hug them really tightly to your chest. No solution offered will ever work for any of your problems. Anything anyone suggests will be rejected as hopelessly unworkable for your special special self.

    At least with the Lunch FAIL and Exam FAIL you’re only hurting yourself. The Dating FAIL is more serious, because you sound to me only one step away from going crazy stalker on some poor woman.* All it will take is for you to fixate on a specific woman, rather than seeing us as all interchangeable identically programmed Womanbots.

    (*And if not, is this the impression you want to be giving people?)

    BTW, in partial defense of GWS, which is generally pretty cool, the comic is in a long story arc about the specific characters. The man is in fact a pathetic stalker type, who some others in the strip have picked up as a pet project. Yeah, this one strip works badly, and especially out of context like this. And there have been some other dubious ones here and there, but mostly it’s good. If you like QC you’ll probably enjoy GWS. (BTW, try the previous one: http://www.girlswithslingshots.com/comic/gws-1255/ )

  405. 905
    Dhorvath, OM

    SallyStrange,
    I am sorry to hear that. Good luck with the sitting in any event.

  406. 906
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    But you are equivocating Geiger.

    “I am not afraid of getting maced”

    is logically inconsistent with

    “I cannot learn social interactions because the slightest misstep will get me maced.”

    Which is it?

    I am not afraid of getting maced *the way things are now*.

    I am afraid of getting maced if I actually try to interact with people socially.

    And you’re stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the distinction.

  407. 907
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    PS: You apparently don’t know what “equivocating” means.

  408. 908
    Dhorvath, OM

    Benjamin,
    Heres one for you. How many men have been maced in your area in the past year? Look it up. How many were in a group talking with people some of whom happened to be female? You are grasping at grass now, but it’s not enough to pull your argument back from the brink.

  409. 909
    KG

    In fact, there’s an SUV that drives around the Albany area that has a garden gnome stuck on the roof – Audley Z. Darkheart

    Alert the Gnome Liberation Front!

  410. 910
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Alethea:

    Yeah, I’ve been reading GWS for as long as I can remember.

    And I’ve been on Cymbalta for a week now. I don’t know if I can afford it anyway (it’s $50/mo, even with my health insurance).

  411. 911
    SallyStrange

    I am afraid of getting maced if I actually try to interact with people socially.

    So, you are worried that you are going to assault someone. That is a major problem. I can’t help you with it.

  412. 912
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    And this guy has gnome-SUV beat, hands down.

  413. 913
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin – I asked a few direct questions in that comment.

    Secondly – you are saying that not only can you not manage to read a non-verbal no, but you wouldn’t be able to understand not to touch anyone who hasn’t asked you to, and wouldn’t be able to hear a verbal no? I can say with little fear that the vast majority of women are not going to mace a guy for flirting, even badly.

  414. 914
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “So, you are worried that you are going to assault someone. That is a major problem. I can’t help you with it.”

    More accurately, I’m worried that something I do will be mistaken for assault.

  415. 915
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Ooooohh, I can haz ♥

    Sorry about the truck company, Sally

    *yawn*
    And I’m now going to bed, I’ve been 1 hour and 300 calories past my bedtime.
    Good night.

    soap
    Forgot to mention:
    A bit of cling foil under the glitter does a lot for the furniture.

  416. 916
    SallyStrange

    I looked up “equivocate.” It says: to use ambiguous or unclear expressions, usually to avoid commitment or in order to mislead; prevaricate or hedge.

    Sounds like an apt description of your behavior here.

  417. 917
    SallyStrange

    More accurately, I’m worried that something I do will be mistaken for assault.

    That’s a distinction without a difference.

  418. 918
    Stevarious

    @Thread:

    Hello! I’ve posted on the blog a couple of times (and on FTB in general a lot more) but I’ve never actually introduced myself on TET before, despite many months of on-and-off lurking. I’d like to officially de-lurk now, though, because I want to comment on Ben here but don’t feel comfortable doing so without introducing myself.

    My name is Steve, I’m in my early 30′s, I’m a computer repair nerd from California (though, alas, I live there no longer) and I’ve been reading Pharyngula for maybe two years (and the reply threads for about 6 months).

    I’m a recovering ex-member of the patriarchy and am occasionally still an idiot or an asshole, and I openly welcome having these unfortunate relapses pointed out to me. I’m also incredibly smart and handsome and witty and sensitive and intelligent and modest. Like, super modest. Like, you don’t even know how modest I am – if there was like, a scale for modesty, I would be off it. Because NOBODY does humble like me.

    So… umm… what’s up?

  419. 919
    SallyStrange

    Benjamin – I asked a few direct questions in that comment.

    Apparently Ben’s selective inability to understand various types of communication extends even to the internet!

    Secondly – you are saying that not only can you not manage to read a non-verbal no, but you wouldn’t be able to understand not to touch anyone who hasn’t asked you to, and wouldn’t be able to hear a verbal no? I can say with little fear that the vast majority of women are not going to mace a guy for flirting, even badly.

    Aaaand… that’s where the misogyny comes in. Why would anyone assume a vast group of unrelated people are going to behave to hatefully towards him, unless he knows deep down that he’s going to behave hatefully towards them?

    BG: if someone thinks you have assaulted them, you have in fact assaulted them. Crucial point. (Unless you’re talking about police line-ups and mistaken identity, but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here.) Do not attempt human interaction until you can accept this basic truth.

  420. 920
    chigau (違う)

    Benjamin Geiger
    I think that you are lying about:
    -not understanding “body language”,
    -about your “failures”,
    -about not being able to use blockquotes.
    I am thoroughly sick of you this latest episode of whinging.

  421. 921
    SallyStrange

    Stevarious –

    welcome, I believe I’ve seen you around. Pull up a chair, have some swill.

    I’m also incredibly smart and handsome and witty and sensitive and intelligent and modest. Like, super modest. Like, you don’t even know how modest I am – if there was like, a scale for modesty, I would be off it. Because NOBODY does humble like me.

    Oh, I’m afraid you won’t fit in around here. It’s practically a requirement that you have to be an arrogant know-it-all.

  422. 922
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Ben, whatever the brand name of your meds, and whatever they cost, they are NOT WORKING. Or not working well enough, perhaps.

  423. 923
    Dhorvath, OM

    Stevarious,
    Welcome to the Thread. It may seem a little sideways today, but it isn’t always like this and when it is it’s because we care about each other and hope to make one another better.

  424. 924
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    “So, you are worried that you are going to assault someone. That is a major problem. I can’t help you with it.”

    More accurately, I’m worried that something I do will be mistaken for assault.

    See, this is what I mean when I say you seem to get most of your ideas about these situations from lazily written Rom Coms. None of us can say for your brother, none of us were there.

    I’ve said some very creepy, rude, assinine, obnoxious MRA stuff to women, and I would have fully deserved the decaying porcupines I would have gotten if I’d brought that shit here, and no one has ever maced me or tried to get me beaten up. Most of them just smiled uncomfortably and did their best not to ‘rock the boat’. (I wish I could apologize to all of them too). These situations you fear appear to mostly happen in crappy, unfunny Romantic Comedy movies that rely way too much on the ‘whacky misunderstandings’ trope.

  425. 925
    chigau (違う)

    I also think that cakewrecks.com is in the top 10 of funniest sites on the whole intertubes.

  426. 926
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Pull up a chair, have some swill.

    *hands out introductory swill, and a bowl of popcorz, and a chit for 10 e-ducats credit*

  427. 927
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Oh, oops, scratch that, it can take more than a week for some meds to take effect.

    Meanwhile, go read some cognitive therapy self-help books. Try this one – http://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380810336/ref=pd_sim_b4 – and practice identifying your thought patterns.

    (Disclaimer: I am not a doctor. Or a psychiatrist.)

  428. 928
    SallyStrange

    Most of them just smiled uncomfortably and did their best not to ‘rock the boat’.

    This is, in fact, the most likely outcome. And it is exactly what Jules did, n’est-ce pas? And then later she wrote Geiger a letter about it.

    Apparently this traumatized him so much that he had to come in here and threaten to commit suicide.

  429. 929
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “I think that you are lying about:
    -not understanding “body language”,
    -about your “failures”,
    -about not being able to use blockquotes.
    I am thoroughly sick of you this latest episode of whinging.”

    You’re wrong about 2 out of those 3, and the third is something I’ve never said in the first place. (I’m perfectly capable of using blockquotes; I just don’t feel like it.)

  430. 930
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Giliell — oh to have French soap. I mainly have to stick to Etsy and a very few e-tailers like Villainess.

    I grated some soap for sensitive skin, then we added just a little bit of water, food colouring, reaaaaaal precious gems and worked woth it like with play dough. Finally we rolled it in a little glitter.

    That’s a great idea. My daughter would love it too. A long time ago I tried some soap craft with grated Ivory soap that you then microwaved, making it puff up hugely, before you rolled it into balls. I used the microwave in Mr Kristin’s dorm and in no time flat had a small audience of fascinated college guys.

    A bit of cling foil under the glitter does a lot for the furniture.

    Glitter is the herpes of the craft world.

  431. 931
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Alethea:

    My last counselor tried CBT (har har, you know what I mean) for years. It didn’t do squat. I already own a copy of Feeling Good, and it’s been approximately as useful. (Maybe more so, because I can’t use therapy sessions to prop up my couch.)

  432. 932
    SallyStrange

    See Alethea? Benjamin doesn’t want help; he wants helpful suggestions which he can easily shoot down, using their lack of utility to justify his refusal to do anything to change his own situation.

    I, too, think Benjamin is lying about not being able to understand nonverbal communication. I don’t know about the failure crises because I wasn’t there for it, but since he is a dishonest, gaslighting fuck, I wouldn’t be surprised.

  433. 933
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin – just a heads up on Cymbalta – it has an incredibly short half life. You cannot miss a dose and the withdrawal feels pretty bad.

  434. 934
    Walton

    I’ve said some very creepy, rude, assinine, obnoxious MRA stuff to women

    Me too. Through much of my teen years I was an unbelievable asshole. In addition to being a creepy misogynist, I was also very, very homophobic.

    Thankfully, I got better. I can’t do anything to change the past; I can only be sorry for it, and do my best to make up for it by behaving decently now.

  435. 935
    SallyStrange

    Also, if you give him suggestions about his mental health, that means it’s easier for him to ignore the concrete criticisms he’s getting that have nothing to do with having mental illness and everything to do with being a misogynist asshole.

  436. 936
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Benjamin doesn’t want help; he wants helpful suggestions which he can easily shoot down, using their lack of utility to justify his refusal to do anything to change his own situation.”

    No, what I want are suggestions that haven’t been tried numerous times before. How does that quote (attributed to Einstein) go? “Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results”?

  437. 937
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Muse:

    I’ve noticed the side effects have been a bit more severe on Cymbalta than on any other med I’ve tried. For instance, I have to take it at night because it makes me drowsy.

    That’s a good thing; maybe it means it’s actually *doing* something instead of just getting pissed out.

  438. 938
    SallyStrange

    No, what I want are suggestions that haven’t been tried numerous times before.

    You have no right, none, to expect that from anyone here. And you certainly don’t have the right to hurt other people in the process of getting what you want, which is exactly what you’re doing right now to Muse and Kristenc.

  439. 939
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Benjamin threads or Walton threads

    you pick

  440. 940
    SallyStrange

    Walton threads don’t make me grind my teeth.

  441. 941
    Eurasian magpie

    (I’m perfectly capable of using blockquotes; I just don’t feel like it.)

    That’s so telling.

    And Ben, do you know how many therapists does it take to change a lightbulb?

    Only one, but the bulb must want to be changed.

  442. 942
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Me too. Through much of my teen years I was an unbelievable asshole. In addition to being a creepy misogynist, I was also very, very homophobic.

    I, on the other hand, have always been awesome.

  443. 943
    Dhorvath, OM

    I just don’t feel like it.

    Hey, look at that. A simple group politeness thing that is beneath you Benjamin. Take a long look at yourself. I have to go for the evening, but if you happen to be inclined to this discussion in the future, I would hope you still have my email, if not I am on FB most days.

  444. 944
    Eurasian magpie

    No, what I want are suggestions that haven’t been tried numerous times before

    Obviously I don’t know what you have tried so far but perhaps it would be more fruitful for your therapy to focus on life-skills than mood problems.

  445. 945
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    I want some of this soap. And also some of this and some of this and this too.

    Not that I need it. Since I already have probably 6 months worth of soap, minimum.

    I hope this will post okay w/all my gratuitious links.

  446. 946
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Woo! it posted.

  447. 947
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    “Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results”?

    And you won’t find those new methods here, as if you haven’t seen anything in a year or more, you won’t see it now. Basic logic. So shut the fuck up. You are boring the TET with your inane problem, one that any listening teenager would know the solution has been given, and how to act on it.

  448. 948
    Stevarious

    Mmmm, introductory swill and popcornz! Tasty!

    *crunch*

    These, er, chits don’t taste very good though.

  449. 949
    Algernon

    I *like* Walton.

  450. 950
    SallyStrange

    Kristenc, it never occurred to me before that someone might have a thing for soaps, but looking at those soaps you linked to, I now understand. Poppyseeds in your soap? So cool.

  451. 951
    tushcloots

    Benjamin wants teh magic bullet. There ain’t one. Your attitude has to change, and there is nothing that can change it for you, nothing.

    You have to just do it, do you understand? You have to see that it is possible to learn new ways of thinking.
    It’s not coming from outside of you, Ben. It will come from inside. Get to a group counselling thing, one on one with a therapist/doctor is bullshit, it won’t likely work. It is child’s play to keep that one going for years and have you both convinced you are a special case: difficult, deeper, whatever.

    I know this is bullshit in your case. Where do you live, may I ask? What city?

  452. 952
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    “Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results”?

    You might apply this to yourself. Because apparently, the others are telling me, you’ve been doing this same thing for a long, long time.

    I’ve tried to tell you what helped me out of the exact same situation, but just like old me, you won’t listen.

    This is actually making me feel kind of terrible. Was I really this bad? Did I really do this to people? Was I really this willfully blind and selfish? REALLY?

    Well, no putting it off. I just sent a message to one of those two women I mentioned earlier, telling her “I’m sorry for being so frustrating. I get it now, your time wasn’t wasted!,” in so many words. Now for the other. And any others I can think of to get in touch with.

    If I was this bad, then I simply MUST apologize to the people I’ve hurt this way. I’ve never been an alcoholic, but I’ve read the AA handbook just for the hell of it, and they talk about ‘making amends’ as part of the change.

  453. 953
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    “Where do you live, may I ask? What city?”

    I live near Lakeland, FL, and go to school in Tampa (where I am right this moment).

  454. 954
    Inaji

    Stevarious! Welcome to TET.

    *Glances over thread, see it’s another of Benjamin’s Oh poor me ones* Bleargh.

  455. 955
    Jessa

    And you certainly don’t have the right to hurt other people in the process of getting what you want, which is exactly what you’re doing right now to Muse and Kristenc.

    Add me to that list. Benjamin is reminding me of a former meatspace friend that would lament his difficulties with women, reject any advice as totally unworkable, then start with the suicidal talk when we became irritated with his refusal to put any effort into dealing with his problems. Apparently the skill he was most practiced at was emotional manipulation of his friends.

    Been there, done that before, not interested in reliving that experience. I’m having a nice glass of wine, and spouse is making rigatoni, so I’m bowing out of The Thread until the subject becomes less triggering.

  456. 956
    Walton

    Benjamin, the suicide threats – and your apparent need to post them here so often – really worry me.

    If you are actually having serious thoughts of suicide right now, you need help. Urgently. As Muse says, contact an advice line or go to the clinic if you need to. If you need to get a better therapist, do it. I’m willing to do absolutely anything in my power to help. Feel free to message me privately if you want to talk about it.

    But what is not ok is constantly posting suicide threats here. It comes across as emotionally manipulative and controlling. It isn’t helping you, and it’s frightening for all of us who are worried about you. It’s a scarily destructive pattern of behaviour.

  457. 957
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Sally: Villainess Soaps are really the schit. I don’t think I’ve had one disappointment in the lot. I actually don’t care much for things like poppy seeds in my soap but that one had me at “veil of smoke”.

  458. 958
    Benjamin "Derp" Geiger

    Anyway, I’m headed home. Probably. We’ll see.

  459. 959
    Muse (evidently temptress of Pharyngula women)

    Benjamin – 65 on this page was what I was referring to when I said I’d noted your lack of response. Reposted below for convenience, though I’ve fixed a typo and line breaks.

    Benjamin – you are actively hurting people with the suicide talk. I gave you the number for the National Suicide Hotline. I’ll give it to you again.

    This is my crisis line hat Ben – if I take you at your word, and the only thing preventing you from suicide is posting about it to this board, then you have serious problems that are not currently being address by your psychiatrist. You need more intensive help than a community of people on the net can give you.

    Benjamin, can you see that you are causing problems for people on the board when you do this? Kristinc just mentioned it, I’ve just mentioned it, and as the PET and Rhinebeckers can tell you, I’m not prone to talk about my personal life.

  460. 960
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I *like* Walton.

    Oh I like Walton as well. But you have to admit some of the early Walton “woe is me” threads were, um, taxing. I’m betting even he would admit that.

  461. 961
    Algernon

    Honestly Rev. BigDumbChimp, some times Walton drives me up the wall with his antics even now. He’s damned good at arguing, that one. But he’s so damned *nice* about it.

  462. 962
    ChasCPeterson

    I like Walton too.
    It’s the interminable talking about Walton that makes me crazy. Or used to.

  463. 963
    RichardAustin

    … I’m only half-way through Snuff. I think this is the longest it’s taken me to read a Pratchett book. It’s no fault of his – I just keep having shit to do. Stupid real-life getting in the way of my reading schedules.

    I’m slightly disappointed in myself.

    On a separate note, why do I get the impression that PZ’s frantically searching the web for a video to embed so he can create a new thread? I doubt he is, but I so want him to be.

  464. 964
    Walton

    Oh, I really want to read Snuff! I haven’t got a copy yet.

  465. 965
    chigau (違う)

    Benjamin “Eunuch’s Guru” Geiger

    (I’m perfectly capable of using blockquotes; I just don’t feel like it.)

    Are you also perfectly capable of understanding non-verbal communication but just don’t feel like it?

  466. 966
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Walton or Ben? Walton, hands down. Even when the monarchy comes up. :P

    Soaps:
    I never was a big soap person, but lately I’ve been buying South of France organic vegetable oil soap (green tea flavor). My skin has never felt so good and I loooooooathe anything perfumed*, so I’m impressed.

    Sally,
    You are so sweet. Mr Darkheart’s mom and be aggrevating, but she loves us. And she feeds us and that’s always appreciated. ;)

    *I’ve had a hell of a time finding decent nonscented shampoo. Usually, I just go with the cheap Finesse brand ‘cos it just smells, well, soapy.

  467. 967
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Richard:
    Ooo, I’m about halfway through Snuff, too. I was kind of surprised when Vimes “didn’t care for that shit” or something along those lines.

    I’m sure Sir Terry has used “shit” in the past, it’s just so rare that it was a little bit of a shock to me.

  468. 968
    chigau (違う)

    I really like Walton’s passion and commitment and aticulosity (I know).
    If there are more lawyers like him, many of us will be safer.

  469. 969
    Algernon

    I don’t like this comparing Walton thing :(

  470. 970
    chigau (違う)

    re Snuff
    NO SPOILERS!!!11!
    goshdarnit

  471. 971
    Inaji

    Walton:

    Oh, I really want to read Snuff! I haven’t got a copy yet.

    I haven’t gotten a copy yet either, but I’m really looking forward to reading it, just like all Discworld novels. I recently ordered Night Watch, Reaper Man, Witches Abroad and Guards, Guards from here. I already have those books, but these are signed and have the UK covers.

  472. 972
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD!

  473. 973
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    The best soap I have ever used in terms of quality and skin-friendliness is Chagrin Valley. Worth every penny and truly extraordinary, although not as fun and perfumy as some other brands (that’s a plus for folks like you though Audrey; they all have subtle botanical scents).

  474. 974
    Stevarious

    Benjamin:

    I absolutely had to comment on this because you remind me so much of my brother that it’s incredibly uncanny – and terrifying, because he dodged jail on an absurd technicality and is one of the few people I know who genuinely deserves the porcupine corpse that keeps getting offered around here.
    The speech patterns are the same, the constant bouncing back and forth between passive-aggressive suicide ‘threats’ and righteous angeriness*, the resentment towards your little brother’s ability to get laid compared to your own failures, your insistence that the advice you are receiving just isn’t ‘good enough’ or ‘right for you’ or ‘I tried that already’ or whatever. I honestly thought that you might BE him, except that he’s not anywhere near Tampa and has no idea about this site and wouldn’t come here if he did.

    Here’s the thing:
    If the stuff you are telling us is true, then you are lying to your therapist. Probably every time you go. Probably (s)he knows quite well that you’re lying. Your therapist can help you work through these problems – (s)he really can! But first, you need to start accepting that NOTHING you try will have the SLIGHTEST effect until you STOP ENJOYING being a martyr. (If you want your therapy to succeed, you should probably try bringing this thread to your next appointment somehow – hows that for useful advice? Note – if you feel like there is stuff on this thread that you wouldn’t want your therapist to see, then you absolutely must do so! No joke!)

    The reason you think you can’t talk to women is because your goals for talking to them are incredibly narcissistic. You want to be able to talk a woman into bed because you want to have sex with her. Fine – lots of people want that. But you don’t seem to be all that concerned about whether SHE wants to have sex with YOU – you just want the magic formula that will convince her to do it. (The impression I got from your first few posts in the thread was “Okay, I supported your feminist… thing. NOW can I get laid??”) Your only concern regarding her enthusiastic consent is your potential to get a face full of mace – and this is the sort of thinking that rapists are born from, and this is why so many people are genuinely angry at you. The only things likely to get you maced are things that are actual assault, and if you aren’t capable of determining what’s assault and what’s not? You should NOT be dating anyone.

    What you don’t realize is that men and women who are successful at this sort of thing already know that the most important part of that process (that is, the process of developing a relationship with someone, whether it be ‘happily ever after’ or ‘casual booty’) is making a connection and developing a rapport. You think you’re not very good at that part and you don’t value it, so you just want to skip it – but making a connection and developing a rapport is the point for most people (and the ones who really do just want sex and are capable of getting it still understand it to be absolutely critical). It’s WHY they are at the bar or on the dating site or going to the party. The sex (which may or may not happen in any of those situations) is optional – but as long as you view it as the goal and everything else as meaningless, optional steps toward that goal, it will never, ever happen – at least, not without paying for it.

    And honestly – if you really ARE as oblivious and incapable of learning as you make yourself out to be, you might consider that option. Go somewhere it’s legal, though.

    If the above is not what you actually want or think, you should probably stop making such an effort at convincing us that it’s all true. Because the person you are portraying is a manipulating narcissistic misogynistic asshole with a martyr complex who is going to be a rapist someday. And that guy can go fuck himself with a dead porcupine.

    (* – angeriness:anger::truthiness:truth. Angeriness is anger you display because you think it’s justified in the situation and it ‘makes sense’ to be angry over a thing, even though you don’t actually feel it.)

  475. 975
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    @Sally, I think you are right. While I did talk about depression, there’s nothing about depression that says you can’t ALSO be a misogynist arsehole. The one thing that obvious depression does is suggest that you might not stay a misogynist arsehole forever.

    That’s if you’re prepared to work at changing it, which Ben isn’t. We are talking here to a man who thinks that buying a lunchbox is too complicated and difficult an action to take.

    I pointed out back at #105 Ben’s pattern of obsessively refusing to accept any and all possible solutions in favour of clinging tightly to his problems. Of course Ben sailed right over that to whining that meds & CBT don’t wooooooork.

    I didn’t even suggest doing the full-on CBT, just step 1: identifying the thought patterns. They seem very blatantly obvious to me, speaking as a depression-prone person who HAS worked at it.

    Yeah. The lightbulb has to WANT to change.

  476. 976
    Walton

    Well, to add an extra layer of depressingness to the thread, I’m currently reading an awful majority opinion authored by Justice Scalia in an asylum appeal from 1992. Damn, that guy is a total asshole.

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