Another arse of a cleric and homosexuality

Another arse of a cleric, Ayatollah Abdollah Javadi-Amoli, has said in a speech in Qom, Iran, citing the Koran:

Even animals … dogs and pigs don’t engage in this disgusting act [homosexuality] but yet they [western politicians] pass laws in favour of them in their parliaments.

He says this in a country where homosexuality is punishable by death under Sharia law in Iran. New amendments approved recently in the Islamic Assembly says that the person who plays an active role will be flogged 100 times if the sex is consensual and he is not married but the one who plays a passive role will still be put to death regardless of his marital status. [And this is what they mean when they speak of ‘reforms’.]

Despite the outrages against gay people, there is an active underground gay and visible transsexual community.

I don’t know if you have seen the below must-see video on transsexuals in Iran. It makes you think how many would consider themselves gay if they were allowed to be gay in Iran.

In one clip, one says:

I am forced to undergo surgery… because of this society… This society says you must either be a man or woman… Society is forcing me…’

Another is asked: ‘If you were not in Iran, would you have the operation’. She responds ‘no’.

Another who has had the sex change operation says: ‘When someone is attracted to me, it’s as a girl… not someone dirty or corrupt.’

It shows very clearly how everything is coloured by religion when it rules and how oppressive it is for so many people who cannot conform (at least superficially) to the regressive rules. It also shows the unbelievable pressures people face not just from the state and society at large but from their nearest and dearest.

Watch it and if you can’t watch all of it, look at part 4 and 6 at the very least below the fold. You need to see this.

(News link Via Terry Sanderson)


  1. Steve says

    Meanwhile, in reality, homosexuality has been documented in hundreds of different species. Sometimes to a much larger degree than in humans. There are some species that seem to be pretty much bisexual (like certain dolphins and bonobos for example).

    The trans thing in Iran is really weird. Transsexuality and homosexuality are two very different things, though many people are both. But forcing a gay man to have gender reassignment surgery is ridiculous

  2. Gregory in Seattle says

    Actually, homosexuality is well documented in pigs and dogs, and just over 500 other species of mammals and birds. Same-sex courtship, pair-bonding and intercourse has been observed in another 1000 or so species. Not that hate-filled religious extremists care about facts.

  3. timberwoof says

    Steve, my older brother did not deal well with my coming out. He said I ought to change my name to the feminine variant. At one point he came on to me sexually, perhaps so he could get me to respond so he could then self-righteously beat the crap out of me. His behavior was based on misconceptions that American boys commonly learned in the ’70s and possibly still learn.

    Much of the repugnance people feel against gays comes from our violation of their rigid sex roles. So the “Iranian” idea that a sexually submissive gay man must really be a woman and the subsequent confusion between homosexuality and transgender is comprehensible.

    So I understand their whacked-out thinking (in the same way that one can understand the fallacies of logic of presuppositionalism) … and I shall not shy away from talking about people’s misguided religion-based attitudes toward sexuality.

    • Martyn N Hughes says

      ‘Much of the repugnance people feel against gays comes from our violation of their rigid sex roles. So the “Iranian” idea that a sexually submissive gay man must really be a woman and the subsequent confusion between homosexuality and transgender is comprehensible.’

      This is what I would should have wrote on this. I didn’t. I’m blaming an head cold though.

      It has nothing to do with an inarticulate disbility 😉

  4. Robert B. says

    Anyone who says homosexuality is disgusting has never met my little brother and his boyfriend. They are sickeningly cute. I don’t even need to look at kitten pictures on the internet anymore, that’s how much cute I get from those two.

    But yeah, this oppression is terrifying. (And how strange that transsexuality is seen as an acceptable “excuse” for being gay. In the US, trans rights and popular acceptance are lagging significantly behind the rights and acceptance of GLB people. Here I’m told it goes the other way round: a trans person, upon coming out, might be told, “why can’t you just be really gay?” Which I suppose, objectively, must be just as bizarre.)

    I hope there can be change so that everyone has the basic right to be who they are.

  5. says

    Is it possible we can have a mailing address of this Ayatollah and deluge him with all the scientifically proven instances of homosexuality in the animal kingdom? For example, the penguins at the Toronto Zoo, orcas in the wild off Alaska, and on and on in over 1500 other species, from mammals to insects. And, just to burst his bubble, dogs and pigs are included in cited examples. Not that science hasn’t been popular since it was an export commodity a few centuries ago. It’s definitely time to export it back and perhaps start a new trend to look at empirical evidence instead of bleating out misinformed bigotry and calls for yet another round of endless, completely unjustifiable murders.

  6. Ashley Moore says

    Even animals … dogs and pigs don’t engage in Islam. Or the naturalistic fallacy, for that matter.

  7. says

    Even animals … dogs and pigs don’t engage in Islam. Or the naturalistic fallacy, for that matter.

    Curse you. You beat me to it.

    However, nonetheless, expanding a little, also in their favour:

    So far as I know, there are no dog nor pig priests nor imams nor rabbis.

    No dog nor pig to my knowledge has ever claimed it had recently been talking to an angel which had handed it a set of rules I must now follow, and, oddly, mostly these rules include my doing as it says, handing over additional young females from other litters for it to mate with, and giving it more kibble or slops.

    Indeed, no dog nor pig has yet threatened to murder me for writing richly-earned mockeries of such risible and self-serving tales of angelic encounters as it had previously made. Nor, indeed, have I yet to observe either of these species attempting to enact blasphemy laws, in order to make the state do the dirty work of protecting their charming little theocratic cons from such (again: richly-deserved) laughter.

    I have yet to catch a dog nor pig telling folk whose lives might otherwise be saved by them that condoms actually spread AIDS. Nor have I ever seen a dog nor pig outside an abortion clinic attempting to traumatize and shame anxious young women in profoundly vulnerable and anxious circumstances who in all probability are having trouble enough already with what is frequently a difficult enough decision already.

    And finally, so far as I’ve observed, dogs and pigs have rarely as yet attempted to convince anyone’s children that they’re going to dog or pig hell if they don’t grovel properly before dog or pig Jesus.

    (/So… Decent people, those particular tetrapods, on balance.)

    • says

      That’s… pretty much the reasons I dislike humanity, neatly summed up, right there. (Throw in an unnatural propensity for violence and destruction of self and others for the strangest of reasons, and you’ve got my full list.)

  8. Martyn N Hughes says

    video 4

    Didn’t catch the speakers name:

    ‘Iran has the best social services in the world for transexuals. First of all, no other country changes the gender on your birth certificate.
    Iran, because of religion and custom, does this for you.’

    Yup. That’s true, but not in the way that woman in the video would like to sell it.

    It’s because of religion and custom that many of these poor people have to have the ‘op’ in the first place.

    As the young man contemplating having the operation responds:

    ‘But in our society, religion has the final word on everything. In European countries, religion is not the law.

    There’s much to be said about religion. Usually bad, and I’ve said it, but have I ever mentioned it in the same sentence with the word hypocrisy attached?

    Oh, and speaking of hypocrisy, in Video 6 it seems another young woman is speaking of being arrested.

    She says, somewhat staidly: ‘I don’t get arrested now. Now they may only arrest me if my female outfit is not appropriately Islamic’.

    Nobody can ever win when religion rules the state it seems. And that has been shown time and time again.

    • Steve says

      It’s really not true. There are plenty of other countries that change the birth certificate. Though Iran is ahead of some US states in that area…

      • Martyn N Hughes says

        Yup, that’s true.

        Iran is only ahead in that area though because the mad mullah’s of mayhem are enforcing a strict gender identity on society.

        They are not doing it because it is the just thing to do.

        Oh, don’t get me wrong. For the real transsexual persons in Iran, it must be a relief that they have the freedom to change gender with the state’s permission.

        For the majority of gay people though. It must be devastating.

  9. Gregory in Seattle says

    These videos were heartbreaking. Being forced to go through that pain and expense because your society demands it… unbelievable. And remember, America’s Talibangelicals do not allow for either homosexuality or sexual reassignment. Imagine: The US’ religious fanatics are actually less open-minded than Iran’s religious fanatics.

  10. Steve says

    As for the “forced” aspect of thing. It seems we need to differentiate a bit here. I think most people in those movies are really transgender. They say they truly feel like the other gender and are happy with the outcome. So for an Islamic theocracy to allow this is weird in many ways, but also good.

    It’s just one (or two?) people who come across as more gay than trans and say they wouldn’t do it if what they are were socially acceptable. He is probably hardly the only one in the country, but that doesn’t mean that everyone feels like him.

    Another weird thing is how many of them describe being sexually harassed by men when crossdressing or just being effeminate. So it’s wrong to be gay, but it’s perfectly fine to harass other men who aren’t masculine enough.

    • Steve says

      Also note that Muslims generally don’t like dogs and pigs. That they don’t eat pork is well known, but they consider dogs equally unclean and would never keep them as pets. Comparing gays to those two animals is probably one of the gravest insults he can think of.

  11. LeetheGirl says

    I find it incredibly amusing how often religious-crazy … well crazy people speak about something they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about. There are plenty of animals that engage in what they would call homosexual acts. Unfortunately for those animals, without resources like we have, it can risk a reduction of their ‘pack’ or ‘cluster’ or what have you.

    And even if they don’t do so directly, other species like seahorses, milkman discus fish, tamarins, cuttlefish, and hyenas have reproduction habits that would probably blow the lid off of people like this.

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