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May 04 2011

How many gays must God make?

Minnesotans are cool. I have a mountain of evidence for this, for the record.

Trolls aren’t so much. Too bad, I thought we had real dialog going on at one point. It’d be nice if there were more people actually willing to intellectually defend their earnestly held beliefs around these parts.

7 comments

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  1. 1
    cardinal batswinger

    Bit of a contradiction here: 1) A religious justification for a political argument is bad but 2) “I believe homosexuality is god given . . . so that is good.
    A thing is good or bad for moral reasons irrespective of their religious/ cultural basis.
    But I don’t know what audience he is skeaking to.

    Still rousing stuff.

  2. 2
    cardinal batswinger

    speaking to

  3. 3
    Jason Thibeault

    That’s the point, kinda. Imploring religious people to stop using the Bible to bash a class of people, based on the fact that the same Bible says every human being was specially created, and therefore that class of people must have been specially created. I don’t see it as a bad point, but I, like you, don’t particularly like any religious justifications for any action in politics.

  4. 4
    Daniel M.

    From a political standpoint, this issue has more complexities than assumed, especially in Christian circles. It’s easy to say, “This is my moral paradigm and I’ll plow over everybody who challenges it.” Now, from a Christian standpoint, basing our morality on what we find in Scripture, the relationship between a man and a woman is functional and therefore “very good.” Genesis is an account of functionality in the cosmos and not so much a description of material origins. We do find, however, that a marriage between a man and a woman is indeed functional–but a union between same sex’s are not functional unions.

    Not in terms of whether they get a long or if their relationship is good, rather in terms of what God has called functional. That said, I cannot agree with such a union as being “blessed.” But, that does not mean, however, that I can use that as a justification to implement such moral convictions into a political system that is supposed to be religiously color blind.

    This is a great difficulty. On the one hand, I cannot agree with the lifestyle. On the other, I cannot force a person against their will to stop living their lifestyle.

    I won’t ever support the abstract notion of homosexual marriage as being morally right, but I also refuse to force people to chose a lifestyle when I have had the freedom to choose my own. I suppose this is why it is such a difficult issue.

  5. 5
    George W.

    Once again Daniel says something both terrifying and beautiful.
    If only he were the rule, and not the exception……

  6. 6
    Jason Thibeault

    I don’t support the abstract notion of homosexual marriage being morally right, Daniel. I also don’t support the abstract notion of polygamy being morally right, or even of heterosexual marriage being morally right. I see relationships as morally neutral, as long as the power balance is not skewed too far one way or another. I see marriage as a social contract and I see consent as paramount. And I see consent as being conditional on that power balance. As a whole, if two (or more) people want to enter into a social contract, and all are of relatively equal power and are not being coerced into entering into these contracts, there’s no moral “wrongness”. I don’t see it as morally “right”, though. I think morals only enter the territory of “right and wrong” when it involves benefit or detriment to individuals involved and/or society as a whole. And I don’t see two gay people pairing off and being happy together as harmful to society in any way.

  7. 7
    Daniel M.

    I see your point. I understand it too. In fact, I agree with it to a certain extent. Our disagreement on this comes from that fact that I willing submit to an authority that I cannot very well prove easily to you and that authority, whom I call YHWH, has indeed placed boundaries on sexual relations. Once again, I willingly submit to this and I don’t ever expect you to do the same. I love that both of us can have this opinion and still be good brothers in the human race.

    My largest issue, personally, is something you may not fully understand unless you completely understand our theology. I get angry when people in my circle (Christians) tend to poke at homosexuality as if it were at the top of Gods charts on the sin meter. They so angrily fight against it and isolate it, yet when someone just went through a divorce because they couldn’t get along, they give them hugs and tell them that God will restore them. This is hypocrisy of the highest order.

    Do you know how angry it makes me that a homosexual cannot openly come into most Churches because he or she feels like they want to connect with God, regardless of where their sexual orientation lies?

    Anyways, I can go on and on, but I think you guys get my point. Interestingly enough, I get just as frustrated as you guys when it comes to this.

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