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Feb 03 2014

Abuse is not a team game

Like Suzanne Moore, I am in no rush to Tweet or blog my opinions on the allegations made by Dylan Farrow about Woody Allen. Of course I have my own suspicions about the most probable truth of events that occurred in her childhood, but not only am I in no position to do any more than guess, I struggle to see who gains from the kangaroo court of Twitter. The notion that expressing support for the alleged victim will provide comfort and succour to either Farrow herself or victims of sexual abuse at large strikes me as bogus – at the very least I can see how any comfort it might provide is more than cancelled out by the accompanying trivialisation. Likewise, the notion that standing up for Allen strikes a blow for the wrongly accused everywhere.

To make either claim is to generalise out from one specific, complex case with unique individuals and unique circumstances and make them symbolic representations, even totems for wider socio-political debates. We can (and should) do that with fictional and historical characters. To do so with real, living individuals and current cases strikes me as profoundly dangerous and misguided.

I have watched the debate unfold over recent days with gnawing, even nauseous discomfort in the pit of my stomach. I was able to pinpoint exactly what was wrong with it when I started to see the inevitable tweets hashtagged #TeamDylan and #TeamWoody – that was when I knew we were not dealing with a meaningful debate but a synthesized, mass-participation role-playing game in which people picked their sides, adopted their character, and went into a make-believe battle, one in which one can do the fighting without the bleeding, safe and secure in the knowledge that one can withdraw at any time and that the whole game will anyway be forgotten in a week or two.

I began to despise the #Team trend during the saga of Nigella Lawson and Charles Saatchi. Over the previous couple of years I had seen use of the tag migrate from tweets about reality TV shows like Big Brother to be adopted by fans of pop puppets – whenever a bad headline appeared in a tabloid, fans would rush to declare #TeamJustin or #TeamHarry. So far, so silly. Then one Sunday in June, a paper ran those horrific snaps of a famous, powerful man apparently assaulting his much-loved, more famous wife outside a restaurant. The photos set off a chain of events that included a marriage break-up (with children involved) and a court case with allegations of drug-use. I do not blame people for having sympathies or opinions about the events and the people involved. I do utterly condemn those who adopted the stylings and language of reality TV and pop gossip to engage themselves and make themselves part of the story, when the story is something a mortally serious as sexual or domestic abuse. [See footnote]

To declare oneself on someone’s team is to position oneself not as a supporter or a fan, but as a player, an active participant in an unfolding drama. Could anything be more narcissistic than to locate oneself in the midst of the human tragedy of others? Knowing that Nigella Lawson herself acknowledged and thanked #TeamNigella does not, to me, excuse or improve matters. It just emphasises that she was caught at the heart of an almighty public circus and that her private life was now public property.

What’s worse, I think, is that such language and behaviour actively degrades the suffering of real people. It is hardly an original insight to note that celebrities’ lives are experienced by the rest of us as fictions, the impressions we get of the famous are largely moulded and shaped for better or worse by publicists, by journalists, by editors, by agendas. There has to be a line where this stops being an acceptable source of colour, amusement, humour and harmless titillation in our postmodern lives and becomes exploitative, corrosive and degrading. I would propose that wherever the line is, sexual abuse of children and intimate partner abuse are well across it.

Commercial media has a vested financial interest in dehumanising celebrities’ personalities, caricaturing their complexities and fictionalising their lives into a soap opera or a reality TV show. For a long time, we went along with that. Thanks to social media, we are now the prime culprits.

 

UPDATED PS – Literally seconds after I’d posted this I saw that @stavvers had written a compelling blog as to why Suzanne Moore is wrong, focussing on another hashtag  - #IBelieveHer or #IBelieveDylan.

Just for clarity, I should point out that I don’t really have a problem with that. As I’ve written many a time before, “I believe her” (or him) should always be our default response to victims’ reports of abuse.  And I think “I believe”  is a perfectly legitimate expression of opinion.

That said, I remain deeply uncomfortable about using celebrities as avatars of profound political truths in circumstances like this – it quickly becomes less of a discussion than a circus.

207 comments

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  1. 1
    Sammy

    Thing is, there’s clear water between what Moore’s saying and what Stavvers seems to be saying she is saying. Taking alleged victims’ accounts at face value and being cautious about labelling people as child molesters, in a loud and public way, are both reasonable positions.

  2. 2
    Gjenganger

    Functionally,there seems to be little difference, between tweeting for ‘TeamFarrow’ and tweeting ‘IbelieveFarrow’. You are taking the same stand, saying the same thing, supporting and accusing the same people. Yet you, Ally, are saying that one is bad and the other is perfectly fine. Before I feel compelled to go and add my support to ‘IBelieveWoody’, could you explain what the difference is?

  3. 3
    Thil

    >As I’ve written many a time before, “I believe her” (or him) should always be our default response to victims’ reports of abuse

    I thought you thought we should treat the accused as innocent unless they’re actually convicted

  4. 4
    Ally Fogg

    Gjenganger

    Functionally,there seems to be little difference, between tweeting for ‘TeamFarrow’ and tweeting ‘IbelieveFarrow’. You are taking the same stand, saying the same thing, supporting and accusing the same people. Yet you, Ally, are saying that one is bad and the other is perfectly fine. Before I feel compelled to go and add my support to ‘IBelieveWoody’, could you explain what the difference is?

    I don’t blame people for forming an opinion, and I don’t think I can really blame people for expressing those opinions publicly when an issue is already being played out so prominently in public.

    I do object to them doing so in such a way that trivialises it to the level of a reality TV show.

    Thil

    I thought you thought we should treat the accused as innocent unless they’re actually convicted

    As I’ve said before, don’t think those positions are necessarily incompatible.

  5. 5
    karmacat

    I have been thinking of what words to use to show support without getting into a battle of saying who is telling the truth or not. I was thinking along the lines of: “I support her choice to tell her story.” It may be better way of supporting the victim without taking sides. In reference to Woody Allen, it is important to hear what Dylan Farrow says, because he now has 2 adopted daughters with Soon-Yi. The people around these 2 girls need to hear about the possibility of Allen being a pedophile, so they can make sure these 2 girls are protected. It doesn’t mean concluding that Allen is guilty, but just being more alert.
    I get tired of the back and forth of taking sides of she said, he said. So, do other people have ideas of what words to use?

  6. 6
    carnation

    Ally, you articulated thoughts that I had been having all day.

    With this quote, I think you capture not only the mentality of Internet gender “activists”, but also a bit of insight into the motivation of antisocial trolls:

    “that was when I knew we were not dealing with a meaningful debate but a synthesized, mass-participation role-playing game in which people picked their sides, adopted their character, and went into a make-believe battle, one in which one can do the fighting without the bleeding, safe and secure in the knowledge that one can withdraw at any time and that the whole game will anyway be forgotten in a week or two.”

    I would hazard a guess that there’s something of a spectrum, with bandwagon jumping but well meaning tub thumpers at one end, MRAs and RadFems at the other, and a smattering of criminals just beyond them.

  7. 7
    Gjenganger

    This is what you said then

    If we genuinely want rapists to be convicted for their crimes, saying “I believe her” (or for that matter “I believe him” in around 10% of reported rapes) has to be the default starting position for police, media reporters and social media commentators alike.

    This does not imply that belief trumps evidence. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we “throw out the judicial process.” Nobody is suggesting police, prosecutors and juries abandon the collection and analysis of evidence and testimony, or the requirement that someone be proved guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

    Now I find it hard to see how media and commentators can believe all accusers as a “default starting position” without effectively treating the accused as guilty until proved innocent – at the very least it is a tricky distinction. Still, no need to redo that discussion. But what about the next thing you wrote:

    The moral payback, I believe, is that when allegations have been properly investigated and there is no proof that an individual is guilty of the offence, that person is held unequivocally to be innocent, without a stain on (usually) his character.

    Apparently the allegations against Woody Allen were investigated at the time, and the judicial system decided that there was no case worth bringing. So, should Woody Allen not be held to be “unequivocally innocent”? And is there nothing wrong, morally, with retweeting your belief that he is guilty?

  8. 8
    Archy

    On the idea of believing the victim always, but believing in innocent until proven guilty…How does that work, do you believe the victim was raped but they may have accused the wrong person?

  9. 9
    karmacat

    From reading the articles, they did have a case but decided not to bring it to court to save the child from going through more turmoil. Also, just because a case is not brought to court, doesn’t mean the accused is innocent. There might not be enough evidence besides the “he said, she said” to be able to effectively try the accused. So, I am not saying Allen is definitely guilty, but it doesn’t mean he is “unequivocally innocent.”

  10. 10
    carnation

    Let’s face it, there are two schools of thought and they are expressed by what particular “team” is chosen.

    Those that believe “feminism has gone too far”, or think that women lie about that sort of thing, or those who have invested time, effort and emotion in the character portrayed (or the films directed) by that particular individual will be on Team Woody/Saatchi/Saville/etc. This team also attracts those with no interest in gender studies/politics but who nonetheless adopt patriarchal attitudes. This time, I posit, is made up of equal parts men and women.

    The other team is comprised of feminists, victims, victim campaigners, those who have invested time, effort and emotion in the TV persona (or whatever) of that particular individual, or those that identify with the anonymous testimony of the alleged (I say that with discomfort) victim. Increasingly though, with more awareness of victim blaming in the press (spearheaded by feminists), this team is growing and includes those who would have almost by default been on the opposing side.

  11. 11
    Gjenganger

    @carnation 10
    Can we have a third team, for those who (whatever their gut reaction) want to avoid demonstrative campaigning or taking sides when we do not really know what happened, and who prefer to go with the official verdict when you cannot avoid making a choice?

  12. 12
    redpesto

    Archy # 8:

    On the idea of believing the victim always, but believing in innocent until proven guilty…How does that work, do you believe the victim was raped but they may have accused the wrong person?

    No. It’s a paradox: perhaps a necessary one if ‘taking sides’ is to be avoided.

  13. 13
    redpesto

    @ Carnation # 10:

    So believing that X might be innocent (at least until proven guilty) is a ‘patriarchal attitude’? Or are they simply the people who feel no need to pick a ‘#Team’ because they don’t believe the accuser is lying either?

  14. 14
    abear

    Ally wrote:

    Just for clarity, I should point out that I don’t really have a problem with that. As I’ve written many a time before, “I believe her” (or him) should always be our default response to victims’ reports of abuse. And I think “I believe” is a perfectly legitimate expression of opinion.

    As many readers here probably recall, two of the bloggers on the FTB network have been accused of rape.
    We have only their word on whether these accusations were false, we don’t know what the accuser’s side of the stories were.
    Presumably, if you take the default position and believe the “victims”, it would be reasonable to believe that Prof. Myers and Jason Tibblededoo are rapists?

  15. 15
    Gjenganger

    @karmacat 9

    just because a case is not brought to court, doesn’t mean the accused is innocent. There might not be enough evidence besides the “he said, she said” to be able to effectively try the accused. So, I am not saying Allen is definitely guilty, but it doesn’t mean he is “unequivocally innocent.”

    True, but then in contested cases, nobody is ever unequivocally anything. I was quoting Ally’s proposal, something like “treat all accusations as true while the investigation is going on, and treat all accused as unequivocally innocent if they are not found guilty”. Personally I would prefer to avoid taking a stand in public while things are in doubt, but to deem that the justice system is right once the decision is in unless there is a very good reason to do otherwise. Which does not prevent me from having a personal opinion on, say OJ or DSK.

  16. 16
    carnation

    @ Gjenganger #11

    That would be the preferred option, but not generally possible given the media that we have and the inquisitive and biased nature of humans. Assumptions are made on people of all ages and both sexes when thrust in the spotlight.

    @ RedPesto

    “So believing that X might be innocent (at least until proven guilty) is a ‘patriarchal attitude’?”

    Um, I didn’t say that. Please try to pay attention. I dipped some ciabatta into a close, but aesthetically different, relation of yours yesterday. It was, I dare say, of your utility than you.

  17. 17
    Gjenganger

    @carnation 16

    That would be the preferred option, but not generally possible given the media that we have and the inquisitive and biased nature of humans. Assumptions are made on people of all ages and both sexes when thrust in the spotlight.

    All well and good, but what do we want to work for?

    We have the two teams here, neither of whom knows what actually happened:.

    Team Farrow, making a mass campaign to the effect that Woody Allen is a paedophile.
    With the expected effect of:
    - Punishing him for his actions without breaking the law.
    - Establish the general principle that abuse accusations are likely true and all accused should be treated as guilty.

    Team Woody, making their own campaign to the effect that Mia and Dylan Farrow are malicious liars.
    WIth the expected effect of:
    - Punishing them for their actions without breaking the law.
    - Establishing the general principle that abuse accusations are likely false, and all accusers should be disbelieved.

    Ally is supporting the work of Team Farrow as ‘a perfectly legitimate expression of opinion’ – provided they use the right hashtags and stick to ‘Ibelieve’ instead of ‘Team’. I do not know if he would be neutral and support Team Woody in the same way (thus encouraging twitter wars), or he would be partisan and limit his support to Team Farrow (thus undermining the presumption of innocence).

    But what should you and I do? Accept that future justice policy will be decided by twitter war, and back the team of our choice? I am for Team Woody – nobody knows what happened. but the presumption of innocence is less dangerous than the presumption of guilt. Or would it not be better to tell both sides to put a sock in it?

  18. 18
    carnation

    @ Gjganger

    I think you’re using semantics to justify a position that is pretty dubious.

    Before joining a team, people will make a judgement call. Not many people would have joined Team Saville, for example. Why? Well, it was hardly a shock, was it? Now, Rolf Harris on the other hand… I have to confess to being incredulous about those allegations. It just doesn’t fit. But hey, that’s my own issues and biases.

    I don’t join a team and I don’t Tweet about these sorts of things. And I don’t support doxxing either.

    But what I will say is that, like everyone else, I make judgement calls. And my judgement on Team Woody is that they are obviously not unduly concerned about some of the more shocking aspects of Woody’s life.

    As an aside, I would hazard a guess that Team Polanski members are likely to be found in Team Woody. That tells its own story, I think.

    And shame on the late, great Gore Vidal for his words.

  19. 19
    Ally Fogg

    Gjenganger

    Ally is supporting the work of Team Farrow as ‘a perfectly legitimate expression of opinion’

    You misunderstand me. I also fully support the right of those who want to argue in defence of Allen as being innocent unless proven guilty. I would argue that it is possible to do that without trashing the reputation and honesty of the abuser.

    I’d be happier if none of this was being played out in the glare of media and public debate, but I’m certainly not backing one side myself.

  20. 20
    Paul

    #TeamDylan and #TeamWoody

    Unease with the above ….

    What’s worse, I think, is that such language and behaviour actively degrades the suffering of real people. It is hardly an original insight to note that celebrities’ lives are experienced by the rest of us as fictions, the impressions we get of the famous are largely moulded and shaped for better or worse by publicists, by journalists, by editors, by agendas. There has to be a line where this stops being an acceptable source of colour, amusement, humour and harmless titillation in our postmodern lives and becomes exploitative, corrosive and degrading. I would propose that wherever the line is, sexual abuse of children and intimate partner abuse are well across it..

    ….and full agreement with the above.

  21. 21
    mildlymagnificent

    Gjenganger

    True, but then in contested cases, nobody is ever unequivocally anything. I was quoting Ally’s proposal, something like “treat all accusations as true while the investigation is going on, and treat all accused as unequivocally innocent if they are not found guilty”.

    From my point of view, I’d say Ally was omitting some crucial words. It should read “… unequivocally innocent of committing a criminal offence if they are found not guilty”.

    Just thinking back to my days of sitting on the occasional committee when we were considering an employee’s conduct for disciplinary reasons, we had to consider whether the conduct should or should not be referred for prosecution. Having decided that prosecution wasn’t warranted did not mean that the person got a free pass. Behaviour that didn’t warrant prosecution or imposition of a fine didn’t mean that the person couldn’t, wouldn’t or shouldn’t be demoted or transferred. Of course, dismissal was also an option in some cases.

    I think that people’s “judgments” on these issues when they become public is a lot more like the kinds of judgments they might make if that person were proposed to be the chair or the treasurer of the school council or the local history/ art/ culture museum or the neighbourhood family health centre. Would you want that person to be responsible for managing or representing any part of your local community? You don’t need a criminal conviction in their background to decide that they’re not suitable for such a role. And we’d all make similar judgments about employing such a person directly or as a contractor or consultant for our business. Whether we say unsuitable or unacceptable out loud or use more tactful words, we’d still say unwanted.

  22. 22
    Lucy

    Regardless of who’s telling the truth about the abuse, several things are pretty clear to me:

    You don’t marry your step daughter.
    You don’t undermine your accuser by claiming they are suffering from hysteria and false memories.
    You don’t undermine your accuser by discrediting their mother.
    You don’t exploit your fame and influence to make a film discrediting their mother.
    You don’t honour dishonourable people.

  23. 23
    Danny Gibbs

    Personally I think this is all the court of public opinion in overdrive.

    Decades ago before the internet a case had to be really high profile to “get people” talking about it all over the place.

    But these days with information (regardless of how true it may be) literally at the finger tips of millions at the click of a button people have access to stories and events and incidents that they would probably have never heard about. And with that access comes opinion forming.

    All this talk of TeamThis and TeamThat is just super level gossip.

    To me believing one side or the other isn’t the problem. Its when people try to make absolute (and sometimes final) decisions about people’s lives and laws that govern peoples’ lives that opinion and belief get dangerous.

  24. 24
    Shatterface

    I used to take believing the accuser as a default position until the Satanic abuse hoaxes.

    Thank fuck that was before Twitter.

  25. 25
    Schala

    Would you want that person to be responsible for managing or representing any part of your local community? You don’t need a criminal conviction in their background to decide that they’re not suitable for such a role. And we’d all make similar judgments about employing such a person directly or as a contractor or consultant for our business. Whether we say unsuitable or unacceptable out loud or use more tactful words, we’d still say unwanted.

    People in France said at the time that the accusation against DSK was a political setup to make him lose his shot at presidency. And whether it was staged or not (ie the accuser paid off by a shady guys), it did result in him losing his shot at the presidency.

    Imagine that working every time, the political games that could be played with accusations that are never substantiated, because it kills your reputation.

  26. 26
    Thil

    @Lucy @22

    Firstly people are free to marry who ever they want.

    Secondly if he is indeed being falsely accused I don’t begrudge him using his power to discredit the accuser. If she doesn’t want to be called an insane bitch in the press don’t try to get a 78 year old man sent to jail on false charges

  27. 27
    Pitchguest

    To Ally:

    How about instead of saying you “believe” the victims just say you take them seriously?

    It removes the fence-hopping aspect but still retains the gravity of the situation. I think that’s more fair than outright declaring your trust in them.

  28. 28
    carnation

    @ Thil

    Didn’t take long for one to appear.

    Is your Team Polanski membership still valid?

  29. 29
    Gjenganger

    @Ally 19.

    You misunderstand me. I also fully support the right of those who want to argue in defence of Allen as being innocent unless proven guilty. I would argue that it is possible to do that without trashing the reputation and honesty of the abuser.

    Fair enough, that is equitable.

    I am less tolerant of either side than you are, though. If one camp wants us to spare the reputation of the accuser, they should accept an equal duty to spare the reputation of the accused. Once people are accusing each other of being paedophiles and liars, you cannot come out with ‘I believe her/him’ without trashing the reputation of the opposite party. Which leaves us where both sides should stick closer to ‘we do not know for sure’.

  30. 30
    Gjenganger

    @ mildlymagnificient 21
    There is a difference, though. Once you know what happened, you decide whether the person deserves a police report or simply a reprimand. Fine. But when you do not know what happened (or if anything happened at all) acting on suspicion is really not on. Hitting Woody Allen for running away with his girlfriend’s daughter is fair enough. HItting him for an unproven accusation of paedophilia is another matter.

  31. 31
    Gjenganger

    @Lucy 22

    You don’t marry your step daughter.

    I would second that one.

    But as for the rest, if you are being accused of paedophilia, undermining your accuser would seem like legitimate self-defense. It is a little much to expect somebody to build up the credibility of his accuser while she is actively working to have him thrown in jail.

  32. 32
    redpesto

    carnation #16:

    @ RedPesto

    “So believing that X might be innocent (at least until proven guilty) is a ‘patriarchal attitude’?”

    Um, I didn’t say that. Please try to pay attention.

    I did – that’s why I noticed you didn’t mention the option of the presumption of innocence – unless it belongs to a separate group from ‘those with no interest in gender studies/politics but who nonetheless adopt patriarchal attitudes’

    I dipped some ciabatta into a close, but aesthetically different, relation of yours yesterday. It was, I dare say, of your utility than you.

    If you’re going to mock my username than respond to my argument then I think there’s a word missing from that insult so it actually makes sense. Still, at least we’re in agreement about the yumminess of pesto.

  33. 33
    redpesto

    Carnation # 18:

    As an aside, I would hazard a guess that Team Polanski members are likely to be found in Team Woody. That tells its own story, I think.

    Except that Polanski was found guilty in a court of law.

  34. 34
    redpesto

    (for the record, the final sentence in post 33 is mine, not Carnation’s)

  35. 35
    Thil

    @carnation @28

    either Woody is guilty and slandering a women in the press is the least of his crimes, or he’s not and he’s just trying to defend himself against a very vindictive individual.

  36. 36
    Thil

    @Gjenganger @31

    Like I said if he’s guilty there are worse things to condemn him for, if he’s not she kind of deserves it

    “I would second that one”

    why?

  37. 37
    sirtooting .

    @ Thil .. No.26

    Firstly people are free to marry who ever they want. .. False

    “Secondly if he is indeed being falsely accused I don’t begrudge him using his power to discredit the accuser.”

    Using his power .. What power is that exactly? Using the power of an attorney to defend him in court ..? No, I don’t believe you are referring to that at all .. And that is the only power he should have a right to wield.

    “If she doesn’t want to be called an insane bitch in the press don’t try to get a 78 year old man sent to jail on false charges” hmm

    “If she doesn’t want to be called an insane bitch” .. She must change her gender ..
    Referring to women as bitches is part of an apartheid system .. Where those on one side of a wall throw stones at the other because it makes them feel all warm, cosy & smug on the inside.
    You generate a feeling of superiority for yourself.. it is all part of the apartheid system ..

    “When I asked my mother if her dad did to her what Woody Allen did to me, I honestly did not know the answer. I also didn’t know the firestorm it would trigger. I didn’t know that my father would use his sexual relationship with my sister to cover up the abuse he inflicted on me. I didn’t know that he would accuse my mother of planting the abuse in my head and call her a liar for defending me. I didn’t know that I would be made to recount my story over and over again, to doctor after doctor, pushed to see if I’d admit I was lying as part of a legal battle I couldn’t possibly understand. At one point, my mother sat me down and told me that I wouldn’t be in trouble if I was lying – that I could take it all back. I couldn’t. It was all true. But sexual abuse claims against the powerful stall more easily. There were experts willing to attack my credibility. There were doctors willing to gaslight an abused child.”

    Referring to women as bitches, is to refer to them as dogs ..

    Now we see your mind set .. it makes you feel all smug & warm and cosy on the inside ..
    Would you have been just as quick to call them a nigger .. if the accuser had been black? ..

    A daughter accuses her father of sexual abuse .. and never has she had her day in court .. Why is that?

  38. 38
    Adiabat

    This article is the first I’ve heard of all this.

    Perhaps that’s the best team to be on.

  39. 39
    carnation

    @ SirTooting

    ” Referring to women as bitches is part of an apartheid system”

    Ugh…. I am starting to think you are an MRA, conforming to the stupidest feminist stereotypes for the purposes of self justification.

    @RedPesto

    I do my online gender activism viaan iPhone: typos happen. I prefer organic basil. Or homemade at a cracking deli. High in fat though..

  40. 40
    WhineyM

    Bluddy hell Ally, you’re a strange fellow and no mistake! Further to Gjenganger’s post @29, turns out you’ve also written the following in this piece here:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/11/anonymity-for-the-accused-reaching-for-a-compromise/

    The people who have today been asserting Le Vell’s probable guilt, even by the indirect use of the hashtag #ibelieveher, should be aware that they are providing the single strongest argument for the introduction of anonymity I have ever seen. Our judicial system is far, far from perfect and is in many ways in need of reform, but it is the only one we have got, and unless we prefer the justice of the pitchfork and the witchfynder, the single most important principle underpinning it has to be that every one of us is innocent until and unless proven guilty.

    So by giving approval to people using the hashtag are you not in effect sanctioning actions which you yourself have marked out as damaging in earlier writings? Like Gjenganger, am as #baffled as Diane Abbott! :-)

  41. 41
    sirtooting .

    @ Carnation

    ” Referring to women as bitches is part of an apartheid system”
    “If she doesn’t want to be called an insane bitch” .. She must change her gender”
    “If he doesn’t want to be called an insane nigger” .. He must change the colour of his skin.

    Strange you have never heard of gender apartheid? If Ignorance is bliss .. you must be in pig heaven right now.

    Referring to women as bitches, is referring to them as dogs, is it not?

  42. 42
    carnation

    Of course I have heard the phrase. No, it is no longer valid. Yes, the nuttier gender ‘net activist of both hues paint lurid apocolyptic pictures of society.

    They are silly. I might start calling you Pauline Elam…

  43. 43
    Phil

    @37

    I did’nt call her a bitch. I said that if she’s lying I don’t care if other people call her a bitch as a result of woody’s efforts to discredit her.

    I was referring to infulance in the media that results from being a famous director, when I spoke of his “power”. This what I mean when I said you fail to understand what we’re trying to say.

  44. 44
    sirtooting .

    @ Carnation
    “Of course I have heard the phrase.”.. Have you?, Well done ..
    You have heard the phrase and now you claim, with that minute bit of knowledge on the subject ” it is no longer valid” Oh .. Shock me, say something intelligent..
    One feels ..You can talk brillantly upon any subject provided you know absolutely nothing about it. LMAO

    Keep rolling your eyes, I’m sure if you keep looking, you’ll find that missing brain cell of yours, very soon.

  45. 45
    Gjenganger

    @Thil 36

    You don’t marry your step daughter.

    I would second that one.

    Why? Well, a 55-year-old marrying a 19-year-old does come with an increased risk of things going wrong. Marrying the daughter of your current girlfriend – with whom you have shared (adopted) children at the time – is surely a breach of contract. Certainly it is pretty much guaranteed to cause an immense amount of hurt in the family. – as indeed it did in this case. Of course people are free to decide whom to marry. I do not know the ins and outs of the Allen family; for all I know this was the only thing either Woody or Su-Lin could do, and their happiness together outweighs any pain that has been caused to others. Still, while it would not necessarily stop me from watching his films or shaking his hand, but, it is the kind of thing that I would generally tend to disapprove of.

  46. 46
    JT

    Referring to women as bitches, is referring to them as dogs, is it not?(Toot)

    As it is used and as per this definition, no its not.

    Bitch
    Noun

    Slang.
    a.
    a malicious, unpleasant, selfish person, especially a woman.

  47. 47
    sirtooting .

    @ Phil or is it Thil.?

    You appear to change your mind as quickly as you change your name, what did you change your mind for by the way .. Was it a hot air balloon, inflated and empty except for a stinking gas ..

    Referring to women as bitches is referring to them as dogs, is it not?

    You feel quite safe & comfortable and smug calling women bitches don’t ya? Mr Fogg tolerates you calling women bitches on here, but I am absolutely certain, he wouldn’t be so tolerant of you referring to blacks as niggers on here, would he?
    I wonder what the difference is .. Ah in referring to women as dogs?.
    Do you two have something in common that causes you fail to recognise your own hypocrisies.?
    Answers on a postcard ..

  48. 48
    Gjenganger

    @JT 46
    If you refer to a woman as the ‘conference chair’ would that imply that she was an inanimate piece of furniture and that any conference member could sit on her? I would tend to say ‘not’.

  49. 49
    Gjenganger

    @ JT 46
    Whereas is you refer to her as the ‘town bike’ you do imply that anybody in town gets to ride her. It all depends on context.

  50. 50
    sirtooting .

    The origin of the word “bitch” is the term used to explain the difference between a female dog, from a male dog.

    That is the original meaning, and only from that original meaning, can you understand, why that reference is used.
    Everything else is flannel, everything else is an excuse, everything else does not acknowledge that and denies the existence of the original use.

    They will turn somersaults to deny that.. in order to continue to justify their hypocrisy and the hatred they hold against those who are not male.

    Referring to women as bitches is referring to them as dogs, is it not?

  51. 51
    carnation

    Toot, do you understand what aparthied actually meant, in the US, and in SA?

    You are shamelessly shameful. And a fool. And a MOPE (Most Oppressed People Ever). In style and substance, you are basically MRAesque.

    Schala with increased use of highlighted text and marginally less words.

    You say aparthied, she says slavery: you are both embarrassingly self-serving halfwits.

  52. 52
    sirtooting .

    @ Gjenganger

    Whereas is you refer to her as the ‘town bike’ you do imply that anybody in town gets to ride her. It all depends on context.
    Really, in what context will a man be regarded as a town bike? .. Anywhere ever .. that is a slur isn’t it .. a town bike is a slur .. is a reference that the woman isn’t choosey and is easy and readily willing to let any man fuck her.. & pass the news around hoo haa .. & the men jump up & down with glee .. pass the message around boys .. it’s party time tonight .. Are men easy.. ? Are they town bikes .. Shall we pass the message around .. they are bikes .. and they are easy & always on the look out, for anything to fuck.

  53. 53
    Thil

    @47 @sirtooting

    I’ve always spelt it with a “T” and it’s not my real name anyway.

    I’ll say this one more time and then I’ll stop replying to you if you don’t take it on board: I didn’t call her a bitch and I didn’t say calling her a bitch was a morally ok thing in the normal order of things. I said that I’m happy for Woody to say things about her that make other people call her a bitch if she’s falsely accusing him.

    incidentally I would say the difference between “bitch” and “nigger” is that the latter can be applied to any black man at any time and thus implies that there is something wrong with all black men, where as you only call a women a “bitch” if she specifically is doing something wrong.

    ….you know what’s annoying? I just know you aren’t going to understand why I was trying say in that third paragraph

  54. 54
    Schala

    Schala with increased use of highlighted text and marginally less words.

    Ally, carnation is slandering me by comparing me to sirtooting. It’s like comparing me to Hitler.

  55. 55
    sirtooting .

    @ Carnation.. No51
    “Toot, do you understand what apartheid actually meant, in the US, and in SA?”

    You ask me this question .. When you said .. Of course I have heard the phrase. No, it is no longer valid.
    So you have heard of it?
    I heard the phrase a long time ago and have read quite a lot more on the subject and observed it in the culture every day, and I am quite au fait with it now.
    I recognise it and I challenge it. “Toot, do you understand what apartheid actually meant, in the US, and in SA?

    Gender Apartheid
    A social system in which females do not have the same political and economic clout as males and are forced to accept less for themselves by a never ending cultural undermining and questioning of females capabilities.
    Many cultures have had a strong antagonism towards women, viewing them as impure & innately sinful who have been sent by the devil to lead men astray.
    This view was at the heart of the European witch-killing mania of the 15th to 18th centuries, & has featured strongly in all three Abrahamic religions. Used as a mask to hide man’s, what can we call it, if it is not sadism?, what a very useful tool that has been for them

    “What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother,
    it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman…
    I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function
    of bearing children.”

    - Saint Augustine (the prominent pioneer of Western theology)

    “What use woman can be to man” .. A self centred, self obsessed, inward looking male .. the town bike .. how men view women .. something to use .. something to abuse .. something to use as a scapegoat .. something to sneer at .. something to despise .. something to separate your self from .. and regard as less valuable than yourself .. something you can ridicule .. and refer to them as dogs.

    APARTHEID .. GENDER APARTHEID is all that and more ..

    They will turn somersaults to deny that.. in order to continue to justify their hypocrisy and the hatred they hold against those who are not male

    Referring to women as bitches is referring to them as dogs, is it not?

  56. 56
    sirtooting .

    @ Schala
    Conscription, historically, and for thousands of years: exacted upon boys and men who can wield weapons, sent to their probable deaths. For the crime of being born male.

    Armed to the teeth invading other countries and killing and raping all those who are unarmed.
    Men go to war to kill ..Not to die .. But women die in war .. But you don’t recognise that do you schala ..?
    Males kill and bomb and rape females aged from one year to 80 yrs. . Females who are unarmed .. They make them homeless, they make them widows and orphans .. But male outrage at being insulted requires satisfaction .. And everyone must pay .. The irrational, the most violent are in control, and their insufferable sensibilities of indignity must be satisfied without delay.

    They still murder widows on their funeral pyres .. they still murder females by the million because they are not born the gender the male prefers ” the male”

    The male gender has continuously crucified the female gender because she isn’t born male .. & throw a bit of sadism in .. Because he enjoys raping her .. And he is up his own arse with arrogance .. Because he has always got away with it, hiding behind his mask..
    Hitler was just one of them .. And they are all bro’s together .. All for one & one for all ..
    Armed to the teeth .. They are all bro’s bro’s bro’s, who sing from exactly the same song sheet .. One and all ..

    Referring to women as bitches is referring to them as dogs, is it not?
    It is meant to be offensive and it is meant to offend .. Apartheid .. the separation of the genders, offensive and is meant to offend.

  57. 57
    Adiabat

    A couple of little known facts about the European witch-hunts:

    A significant proportion of people executed for witchcraft were men; in fact the Russian witch-hunt victims were mostly men.

    The majority of people tried for witchcraft were acquitted. In fact, the conviction rate was less than the conviction rate for rape today. Perhaps they were living in a “Witch Culture” that condoned and encouraged witchcraft :).

    One more: England had very few witch-hunts and never really “got into it” like other countries at the time. The few they did execute weren’t burnt, but hung.

  58. 58
    pneumo

    Now, how did I know in advance on what side of the debate this dude would come down? I must be psychic.

    https://www.facebook.com/ben.radford.58/posts/10202196194600586

    Or maybe I’m just able to read.

  59. 59
    JT

    @Thil #53
    You know that the irish were at one time referred to as “white niggers”. I call some of my buddies “bitches” when they are in a complaining mood. As in, “quit your bitching”. Context, its all about context, unless of course someone belongs to the word police, then they get to determine the context.. ;)

  60. 60
    sirtooting .

    @ JR
    “I call some of my buddies “bitches” when they are in a complaining mood”

    yeah, some black people call other black people niggers .. why is that then?
    but of course, if a white person was to do it, that would be a totally different matter and there is no mistaking in what context that would be meant. .. it will be offensive and meant to offend .. calling your friends it, is not in the same context as calling women it, is it? .. it is meant to offend .. that is it’s purpose .. to be offensive and offend.

  61. 61
    JT

    is meant to offend .. that is it’s purpose .. to be offensive and offend(Toot)

    Of course it is. I dont deny that. What I do deny is that when I use the term its specifically to offend someone for their gender, I dont.

    Hence the reason I posted the definition so you would understand context and not tell me otherwise. So do me a favour and stop being such a bitch, you know, a malicious, unpleasant, selfish person. Considering were online right now I have no clue what gender you really are.

  62. 62
  63. 63
    randomperson

    A couple of little known facts about the European witch-hunts:

    A significant proportion of people executed for witchcraft were men; in fact the Russian witch-hunt victims were mostly men.

    The majority of people tried for witchcraft were acquitted. In fact, the conviction rate was less than the conviction rate for rape today. Perhaps they were living in a “Witch Culture” that condoned and encouraged witchcraft :).

    One more: England had very few witch-hunts and never really “got into it” like other countries at the time. The few they did execute weren’t burnt, but hung.

    True, particularly poor (and even minority) men. Even in the most witch-hunt friendly area, Central Europe, men could make up the majority of the persecuted in particular areas (though on the whole, women did have it worse).

    About conviction rates, I’m not sure about the *overall* percentage but for a few cases I’ve seen, they could range even up to 90%.

    As for England, indeed, it was lower than many other parts but Southeast Europe fared even better in that respect. :-)

  64. 64
    Paul

    @sirtooting 41

    Referring to women as bitches is part of an apartheid system”

    You clearly have no idea of what an apartheid system actually is because if you did you wouldn’t have made the above statement.

    Most women i know-including many who’re highly educated- have used the word bitch to describe other women who’ve pissed them off. Are you really suggesting that these women are actually unthinking beings who’re living in an apartheid system and have simply internalised oppressive patrichial attitudes without realizing it.And that all they need is a bit of enlightenment from the likes of you ?

  65. 65
    sirtooting .

    @ JT
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you abuse the privilege.
    Were we talking about YOU, when you decided to stick your oar in.?

    No, we weren’t is the answer and you gave us an explanation of how you speak to your friends .. as if anyone cares .. we weren’t discussing you ..
    So bizarre, no one knows why you decided to stick your oar in, because all you did stupid, was point out the bloody obvious. Duh..
    It would have been more appropriate if you had told us how you walk up to complete strangers and call them bitches or niggers because they are pissing you off ..
    Yeah, I’m sure they would fall about laughing ..
    Why don’t you tell us about, you, walking up to a black man and calling him a nigger ..?
    People call people these names over the internet, because they can get away with it, and there is little or no come back .. It makes them feel or cosy and warm inside .. And when you are twice the strength of another,, you feel quite safe to do it to their face, because the comeback is exactly the same .. they feel that safe and confident to do it ..
    The origin of the word bitch, is the reason why it is used.
    And Bitch I don’t know what makes you so stupid, but omg, it really really works..

  66. 66
    Lucy

    What has her mother got to do with anything now?
    And this brainwashing lark, that’s not a real thing is it. Nobody gets brainwashed in real life.
    And this hysterical, neurotic woman who secretly craves abuse and invents it lark, that’s not a real thing either, that was just Freud making stuff up because he couldn’t countenance the fact that so many of his female patients were telling the truth about childhood abuse.

    Everyone is still treating her like a child.

    Maybe she’s making it up and is evil. Maybe she doesn’t know she’s making it up and is deranged. Maybe her mother is a malevolent being who still pulls her strings from afar. Maybe they’re both highly adept at disguising these personality pathologies from her friends and family. Or maybe he did it.

  67. 67
    Lucy

    Phil

    “I did’nt call her a bitch. I said that if she’s lying I don’t care if other people call her a bitch as a result of woody’s efforts to discredit her.”

    Splitting hairs really.

    It’s okay to call people sexist names if they are liars? Equality is for honest folk?

  68. 68
    JT

    @Toot

    Perfect! :) Im glad you read the definition.

  69. 69
    Gjenganger

    @Lucy 66.
    Indeed, maybe he did it. That is a plausible explanation.

    Brainwashing – OK, forcing changes on an unwilling adult victim, would probably require a few years in a prison camp and might be hard even then. But for smaller stuff there is surely results from witness psychology that you can induce false memories with some success. And for someone basically cooperative it might be easier. Some of the recovered memory cases were established in court as pure inventions (I do not doubt that others were genuine). And a seven year old child, supporting a beloved and distraught mother, would be at least cooperative. It may not be common or easy, but it is hardly unthinkable.

    One of the big questions with any accusation of abuse is “why would anybody invent it if it were not true”? And one possible answer might be that somebody who had been unbearably betrayed and hurt might be tempted to lie a bit if it was the only way to deliver NN to the punishment he so obviously deserves. If your boyfriend has just run off with your daughter you could hardly be blamed for having that kind of feelings. All pure speculation, of course, but this too is a plausible explanation
    Basically we do not know.

  70. 70
    sirtooting .

    ‘@ GGjenganger

    “One of the big questions with any accusation of abuse is “why would anybody invent it if it were not true”? And one possible answer might be that somebody who had been unbearably betrayed and hurt might be tempted to lie a bit if it was the only way to deliver NN to the punishment he so obviously deserves.”

    Except this was a seven year old girl and funnily enough, Mr Allen married his step daughter ..hmm

    http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/1992/11/farrow199211

  71. 71
    Minroad

    Ally Fogg wrote, ” …’I believe her’ (or him) should always be our default response to victims’ reports of abuse.”

    I find this statement troubling in the following way.

    To say one “believes,” in this context, means that one holds that she (or he) is telling the truth. I think the correct epistemological status of an accusation, per se, is “I don’t know,” not “I believe.” Of course, such an accusation should be taken very seriously and investigated thouroughly (as should any serious crime), but why create a fiction?

  72. 72
    Thil

    @Lucy @67

    her being called a bitch is the lesser of two evils compared to woody going to jail on false charges.

  73. 73
    Thil

    @JT @59

    words have a cultural context you can’t just decide doesn’t exist

  74. 74
    JT

    @Thil

    Yep, thats why our culture added several other definitions for the word because of context. Do you think when someone calls you a bitch they think youre a female dog in heat?

  75. 75
    Thil

    @JT @74

    I’m not a women

  76. 76
    JT

    You do realize the term is no longer exclusively used with women. It may be more often but not only. If you acted as crass and nasty as toot I would call you a bitch too.

  77. 77
    sirtooting .

    @ JT
    Here’s 20 cents. Call all your friends and bring back the change!
    And by the way, I see you are still insisting on wearing that clown out fit that came free with your brain and all because it came as a matching set. :-)p

  78. 78
    JT

    Lol, hey Toot, Elton John wrote a song for you. ;)

  79. 79
    Thil

    @sirtooting

    “20 cents” is over charging for your openions

  80. 80
    sheaf

    sirtooting, (77)

    I did just that and they just laughed ad called me names as well. Seems the offensive quality of the word on its own is negligible, and the important thing is (gasp) the context of the conversation. That were my 30 000 dollar worth of opinion, given away freely for I am generous.

  81. 81
    Danny Gibbs

    71. Minroad
    Ally Fogg wrote, ” …’I believe her’ (or him) should always be our default response to victims’ reports of abuse.”

    I find this statement troubling in the following way.

    To say one “believes,” in this context, means that one holds that she (or he) is telling the truth. I think the correct epistemological status of an accusation, per se, is “I don’t know,” not “I believe.” Of course, such an accusation should be taken very seriously and investigated thouroughly (as should any serious crime), but why create a fiction?
    One thing I’ve always wondered is why does there need to be a default response of believing the accuser?

    For the people who ageee with Ally (that believing the accuser should be the default) I have a question.

    Do you think it is possible to take an accusation seriously and properly investigate it without forming a belief one way or another about the crime itself?

    For example let’s say A accuses B of abuse. Is believing A’s story a requirement for taking the claim seriously and investigating it? Does a proper and thorough investigation hinge on believing the accuser by default?

  82. 82
    Lucy

    Gjenganger

    “Brainwashing – OK, forcing changes on an unwilling adult victim, would probably require a few years in a prison camp and might be hard even then.”

    Can you name a single example?

    Two academic studies of the repatriation of American prisoners of war by Robert Jay Lifton and by Edgar Schein concluded that brainwashing (called “thought reform” by Lifton and “coercive persuasion” by Schein) (if it occurred) had at best a transient effect.

    —-

    “But for smaller stuff”

    Being told to lay on your stomach and watch a toy train while your father plays with your genitals?

    —-

    “there is surely results from witness psychology that you can induce false memories with some success. And for someone basically cooperative it might be easier. Some of the recovered memory cases were established in court as pure inventions (I do not doubt that others were genuine). And a seven year old child, supporting a beloved and distraught mother, would be at least cooperative. It may not be common or easy, but it is hardly unthinkable.”

    The concept of False Memory Syndrome is controversial and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders does not include it. Paul R. McHugh, member of the FMSF, stated that the term was not adopted into the fourth version of the manual due to the pertinent committee being headed by believers in recovered memory.

    Recovered memory therapy is used to describe the therapeutic processes and methods that are believed to create false memories and false memory syndrome. These methods include hypnosis, sedatives and probing questions where the therapist believes repressed memories of traumatic events are the cause of their client’s problems. The term is not listed in DSM-IV or used by any mainstream formal psychotherapy modality.

    —-

    “One of the big questions with any accusation of abuse is “why would anybody invent it if it were not true”? And one possible answer might be that somebody who had been unbearably betrayed and hurt might be tempted to lie a bit if it was the only way to deliver NN to the punishment he so obviously deserves. If your boyfriend has just run off with your daughter you could hardly be blamed for having that kind of feelings. All pure speculation, of course, but this too is a plausible explanation. Basically we do not know.”

    I tend to go for the most plausible explanation for events, rather than the most far fetched ones. I don’t think the a Twin Towers were a false flag operation either, it’s plausible, but you know, not.

  83. 83
    Lucy

    “her being called a bitch is the lesser of two evils compared to woody going to jail on false charges.”

    Does it have to be one or the other?

  84. 84
    Lucy

    It used to be the case that women made up allegations of sexual assault.

    Now apparently they don’t even know whether they’re making their allegations up.

    I don’t know about you, but I believe it cos dem bitches is crazzeeee. Not like us rational men who can remember perfectly well whether or not we abused our kids and have a totally unbiased perspective on our ex-wives. No machinations or false memories here folks, trust me, I’m an artist.

  85. 85
    Lucy

    What fresh Kafkaesque hell is this when you are told by the world that you imagine the crimes carried out by the elites against you.

    Kafka? Or Orwell?

    You can see how people can end up jumping off car parks can’t you.

  86. 86
    sirtooting .

    @ Lucy .. No.84
    They will turn somersaults, anything but admit the truth.

    Victims associate themselves with victims and abusers associate themselves with, .. Well, .. You know who.
    Virtually Man’s entire written history is a litany on men turning somersaults, trying to find ways to justify their abuse of the other half of the human race in their in humanitarian treatment of them. They hide behind things, to justify it to themselves, religions, biology, any excuse will do. as long as they can justify it to themselves.

  87. 87
    Lucy

    Gjenganger

    “if you are being accused of paedophilia, undermining your accuser would seem like legitimate self-defense. It is a little much to expect somebody to build up the credibility of his accuser while she is actively working to have him thrown in jail.”

    But how is he undermining her? By calling her a liar? Not only that, but also by crediting her mother with cultish supernatural powers of manipulation that overcome barriers of distance and adulthood and marriage and his accuser of being fantasist who has only a shaky grasp on reality. That’s going above and beyond. That’s drawing on sexist fairy tale tropes of malevolent unhinged step-mothers and bovine, unhinged daughters. That’s not a defence, that’s the plot of Carrie.

    What concerns me more than the fact that he is using these sexist tactics to defend himself, is the fact that he expected them to land on such fertile public ground. And what concerns me more than that, is that he was right.

  88. 88
    Lucy

    “Virtually Man’s entire written history is a litany on men turning somersaults, trying to find ways to justify their abuse of the other half of the human race in their in humanitarian treatment of them. They hide behind things, to justify it to themselves, religions, biology, any excuse will do. as long as they can justify it to themselves.”

    I wasn’t doing 90 miles an hour on the motorway, m’lud. That traffic policeman is a fantasist.
    I didn’t nick that car, m’lud. DVLA is a cultish conspiracy.
    I didn’t burgle he house, m’lud. I live there, my landlord has false memory syndrome.
    I didn’t refuse to leave the licensed premises after I got chucked out for being a raging drunk, m’lud. The bouncer is emotionally disturbed.
    I didn’t rape that girl, m’lud, she is an emotionally disturbed fantasist with false memory syndrome in a cultish conspiracy.

  89. 89
    Adiabat

    Randomperson (63):

    (though on the whole, women did have it worse).

    I generally reject such a hierarchy of who has it worse in this case. Christine Larner, a historian specialising in the Historiography of European Witchcraft, states that “Witchcraft was not sex-specific, but it was sex-related.” Many other historians agree, such as Brian Pavlac, author of “Witch Hunts in the Western World”.

    About conviction rates, I’m not sure about the *overall* percentage but for a few cases I’ve seen, they could range even up to 90%.

    It did vary depending on the particular witchhunt. I’m working from memory here and don’t have the book anymore backing up my point. But the Wiki page, despite its flaws (such as conflating the British Isle’s witch hunts with North America’s when they were very different), has a nice table breaking down trials and executions: The conviction rates for witchcraft is between 10% and 50%, while the Stern report put the rape conviction rate at around 60%.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

  90. 90
    Thil

    @Lucy

    “Does it have to be one or the other?”

    yes, unless Woody publically confesses to everything a lot of people are going to keep calling her a “lying bitch”

  91. 91
    Thil

    @Lucy @87

    “That’s going above and beyond”

    No sorry it really isn’t. He doesn’t owe anything to the girl and what the public will or will not believe is not his fault

  92. 92
    Gjenganger

    @Lucy
    82:
    It does not matter if brainwashing of unwilling adults is hard or impossible. My point was that inducing memories in a positive, cooperative person is bound to be easier.

    It does not matter what the DSM says. My point is that there have been cases (no, I cannot give you a link) where people have left their therapist convinced that they remembered being abused, and a court has later sentenced that the abuse remembered did not happen. That suggests to me that a cooperative person, willing to go along with the person trying to convince them, can in come cases be induced to remember something that did not happen.

    87:
    We are clearly not going to agree on what is plausible. But your ‘cultish supernatural powers that overcome barriers of distance and adulthood’ are neither here nor there. The original accusation happened immediately during the relationship break-up, when the accuser was seven, and was given to (and videotaped by) the mother at the time. After that, the die is cast. The accusation is a crucial part of family history. Retracting it at any later time would mean breaking with your mother, exposing her to prosecution, throwing the whole family into disaster, all to favour a stepfather whom you have good and sufficient reason to hate. Not surprising if one might prefer to stick to the story once said, or even try to convince oneself that it was true.

    As for thee undermining, if someone is accusing you of something terrible and untrue, they must be eitehr evil or disturbed (mistaken is not relevant here). There is no nice explanation.

  93. 93
    summerblues

    Team Jacob or Team Edward…Twilight…shallow and silly way to show support. How about just keep your (meaning Twit folks) mouths shut and let the courts sort this out?

    Allen will probably get away with it. He has for years, hasn’t he? Why isn’t Allen being used as the scapegoat instead of Polanski. Allen strikes me as the worst of the two evils.

  94. 94
    carnation

    I wonder what Team Woody supporters have to say about Jonathon King?

  95. 95
    Phil

    @93

    “Keep you openings to your selves” Two seconds later “here’s what I think about what going on”

  96. 96
    randomperson

    I generally reject such a hierarchy of who has it worse in this case.

    Yes, of course it’s more complex but my statement simply meant “more cis XY people were accused overall” since we were talking about percentages. Just nothing that there was a disparity *overall*.

    Christine Larner, a historian specialising in the Historiography of European Witchcraft, states that “Witchcraft was not sex-specific, but it was sex-related.”

    That’s true (though some historians make the argument that it could be described as “gender-specific” so to speak in *some* cases since the accused, even if men, were frequently portrayed as displaying various despised “feminine” qualities; though, similarly sometimes female witches were also portrayed as less womanly precisely because they were witches – it’s certainly a complex matter). I didn’t make the argument that they were fueled (just) by misogyny though, just to be clear. :-)

    Btw, I haven’t read Larner’s work directly (I assume you’re referring to “Enemies of God”) but I’m familiar with Levack’s. In “The Oxford Handbook of Witchcraft in Early Modern Europe and Colonial America”, which he edited, this is a passage attributed to Larner (chapter author is Alison Rowlands): “The women who were accused were those who challenged the patriarchal view of the ideal woman.” Indeed, that does seem to be the case frequently as far as I recall (e.g. a lot of single women). Do you agree with that statement of hers?

  97. 97
    randomperson

    Groan, of course that should say “more cis XX people.”

  98. 98
    redpesto

    carnation # 94:

    I wonder what Team Woody supporters have to say about Jonathon King?

    Who cares what they think?

    King was sentenced to seven years in prison in 2001, after being found guilty of committing sexual offences against five boys aged 14 and 15 during the 1980s He was released on parole in 2005. King has always maintained that he is not guilty of the offences which led to the 2001 convictions, but has been unable to have them overturned. [link, emphasis added]

    That’s two convicted sex offenders you’ve tried to use against ‘#Team Woody’. Me? I’d rather have a jury trial – it’s what the courts (however flawed) were designed for.

  99. 99
    JT

    Woody presents as a very unusual person. I think it is very unusual that he married his stepdaughter, actually for me its bordering on strange to creepy. With that said, it doesnt make him a paedophile. Another unusual aspect is the fact that they are still married. In the States normal would have been a divorce by now. ;)
    He is also not the first celebrity to marry a young woman that he knew from an earlier age. Look at Rene Angelil and Celine Dion, though they are seperated.

  100. 100
    Adiabat

    Randomperson (96): You’re right about it being complex, and it’s questionable whether much can be said about the witch hunts “overall” at all. Every witch hunt, apart from some vague connections, was very different from each other.

    I’d have to know the context of Larner’s quote to have a solid opinion, but a lot of the accused and executed were old, single (widowed or spinster) and poor women. I suppose it’s an open question whether you’d view their targeting as “failing to uphold a patriarchal ideal of womanhood”. With regard to widows, especially property owning widows, tough economic times are often a much more plausible reason for them being targeted than any ‘patriarchal ideal’. Midwives also were targeted a lot, and many were also old, single (widowed or spinster) and poor women. But then midwives were often targeted because they often offered abortion and other additional services, not to mention their shockingly poor success rates before “patriarchal” doctors started looking at childbirth as a medical issue and vastly improved survival rates of both mothers and children. And again some witch hunts had men as the main victims, and other targeted children of both sexes. Others again targeted men and women, with the idea that witchcraft was thought to be hereditary. Like you said, it’s a mess to untangle and I think we should be wary of anyone who offers ‘one explanation’ as a cause, and I consider a “patriarchal ideal” explanation to be among the weakest possible explanations of a cause.

    I’ve found the following short list of victims of the Würzburg witch hunts, of which there were a total of 157: “Mr. Ancker’s widower, the fat Mrs Höcker, the old Mrs Beutler, two strange women, a musician, the wife of procurator Stier, the brushmaker’s wife, the goldsmith’s wife, the wife of Glaser (the mayor), a strange man, a rich merchant called Lutz, the housekeeper of the prevost, a fat seamer, a strange woman, a 12 year old girl, three strange women, Mrs Bentz, Mrs Bentz’s daughter, a rich man called Steinacher, a musican called Silberhous, the blacksmith of the court, an old woman, a 9 years old girl, her younger sister, Mis Liebler, a 12 years old boy, a pageboy, a 10 years old boy, an 11 years old boy, the pharmacist’s wife and daughter, a 12 years old boy, another one, a 15 years old girl, Mrs Schellhar, a woman, a 10 years old boy, a 12 years old boy, Miss Bebel who was the prettiest girl in the twon, a student who spoke many languages and played well on musical instruments and sang well, two 12 years old boy, the manager of the hospital, a 14 years old boy, the rich cooper called Stürmer, a washer woman, the two sons of the court cook, a blind girl, a fat noble woman.”

    Notice how many simply do not fit the “patriarchal ideal” explanation. This makes me think that that explanation is a case of people trying to ‘make facts fit the theory’ rather than the other way round.

  101. 101
    Gjenganger

    @Adiabat 100

    Some second-hand qualitative notes from witch hunts in Scandinavia

    - Scandinavia supposedly avoided the long, cascading chains of A accusing B accusing C because it was decided early on that you could not torture mere suspects, and that the testimony of convicted witches (who presumably could be tortured) was not to be considered reliable.

    - Typically it was the populace who wanted witch trials, and the educated elite who was reluctant.

    - A not atypical chain of events would be:
    – Some person (often someone poor or weak, like a widow) is treated badly, or refused help. Maybe she curses the person who hurt her, maybe she just goes around muttering.
    – The person who hurt her suffers a disaster, dead cow, dead child, disease, lightning strikes the haystack,
    – People conclude that this is the revenge of the witch and wants her removed.

  102. 102
    ildi

    Schala:

    Ally, carnation is slandering me by comparing me to sirtooting. It’s like comparing me to Hitler.

    Way to make carnation’s point. Love the smell of Godwin in the morning…

  103. 103
    katamari Damassi

    “Carnation # 18:

    As an aside, I would hazard a guess that Team Polanski members are likely to be found in Team Woody. That tells its own story, I think.”

    That would include Mia Farrow, who is a friend and supporter of Polanskis. Awkward.

  104. 104
    katamari Damassi

    Allen did not marry his step-daughter. Soon-yi is the adopted daughter of Farrow and Andre Previn, Allen was also never married to Farrow, nor did he live with her.

    Somehow these facts get ignored.

  105. 105
    katamari Damassi

    “From reading the articles, they did have a case but decided not to bring it to court to save the child from going through more turmoil.”

    That’s Mia Farrow’s spin, but 2 physicians hired as part of the police investigation found no sign of abuse. Allen passed both a polygraph and a plethysmograph tests.

    Believe the victims, then investigate, then believe the evidence.

  106. 106
    Lucy

    This

    “unless Woody publically confesses to everything a lot of people are going to keep calling her a “lying bitch”

    And all good people will call them sexists.

    “Woody doesn’t owe her anything”

    Apart from her being his daughter, he owes her the universally-owed factor of human dignity. Regardless of what she does or does not do to him. We don’t get to pick and choose who we give that to. The bad guys don’t do that, the good guys do. And we honour the good guys.

  107. 107
    Lucy

    Adiabat

    “not to mention their shockingly poor success rates before “patriarchal” doctors started looking at childbirth as a medical issue and vastly improved survival rates of both mothers and children.”

    Patriarchal doctors didn’t become involved in, medicalise or begin to improve maternal survival rates until around 1000 years after the midwife massacres ended. It was very clearly an activity aimed at rubbing out pre and extra Christian activities so that all religious activity and authority could be centralised under the Church. The same as had previously been achieved within Roman paganism as it turned into Roman Catholicism, there women were also stripped of all religious influence and authority and propaganda about their dark arts, lustful characters, unholy bodily functions and need to stay silent in church was circulated. It’s the same activity that took place in Ancient Greece as they moved from a pantheon of goddesses and dark, unpredictable, capricious female nature worship to a pantheon of gods and worship of pure, clear, reliable masculine rationality.

  108. 108
    Thil

    @Lucy

    “And all good people will call them sexists”

    If it did turn out she was lying I doubt many people would care.

    “he owes her the universally-owed factor of human dignity. Regardless of what she does or does not do to him”

    This is like arguing that if you physically attack me I can’t defend my self because it would be a violation of your body autonym to hit you back.

  109. 109
    sirtooting .

    When she was seven, she told the truth as she saw it .. what had a seven year old got to gain by lying? .. What did he have to lose by telling the truth.?

    He is not a nice guy, he is a little dictator, to all who really know him

    This is a basic principle: until it is proven otherwise, beyond a reasonable doubt, it’s important to extend the presumption of innocence to Dylan Farrow, and presume that she is not guilty of the crime of lying about what Woody Allen did to her.

    If you are saying things like ‘We can’t really know what happened’ and extra-specially pleading on behalf of the extra-special Woody Allen, then you are saying that his innocence is more presumptive than hers. You are saying that he is on trial, not her: he deserves judicial safeguards in the court of public opinion, but she does not. The damnably difficult thing about all of this, of course, is that you can’t presume that both are innocent at the same time.

    He has been accused of abusing his step daughter and he has escaped judicial prosecution .

    A 1976 profile of Allen that appeared in People Magazine. It ends on a disturbing note. “I’m open-minded about sex. I’m not above reproach; if anything, I’m below reproach. I mean, if I was caught in a love nest with 15 12-year-old girls tomorrow, people would think, yeah, I always knew that about him,” Allen tells Jim Jerome, the reporter. “Nothing I could come up with would surprise anyone. I admit to it all.”

    Setting himself up as a victim of his own hypochondria, sexual anxiety, mother issues, and assorted other neuroses is a clever trick for Allen, one that simultaneously anticipates nearly everything anyone could accuse him of, and renders him pathetic and sympathetic.

    So many of his movies say. Look how he suffers. But there are other people who are affected by the behavior of severely neurotic people, even if the impact on their lives doesn’t rise to the level of criminal trespass. Woody Allen’s just spent years training us to look past that damage, and to look at him instead. That’s a terrific insurance policy for the day it turns out you can’t preempt everything.

    When she was seven, she told the truth as she saw it .. what had a seven year old got to gain by lying? .. What did he have to lose by telling the truth.?

  110. 110
    Adiabat

    Lucy (107):

    Patriarchal doctors didn’t become involved in, medicalise or begin to improve maternal survival rates until around 1000 years after the midwife massacres ended.

    Sorry, but I don’t see what that has to do with what I said. I was referring to the high mortality rate during childbirth before “patriarchal” doctors started to look at it. I’m suggesting that it’s no coincidence that the rise of doctors delivering babies, and the associated increase in survival rates through improved standards, occurred soon after events which indicate a new and widespread distrust of traditional midwives. Towards the end of the witch hunts is also when we started seeing states impose licensing restrictions on midwives. I don’t think that it’s unreasonable to suggest that the targeting of midwives during the witch hunts may have had something to do with their practices being completely unregulated, unsafe, and likely responsible for the death of babies and mothers.

    It was very clearly an activity aimed at rubbing out pre and extra Christian activities so that all religious activity and authority could be centralised under the Church.

    It’s unclear what the object is in this sentence but I’m assuming you’re referring to the witch hunts when you say “It”. If so, which church are you referring to? The Catholic Church, Lutheranism, Calvinism and Anglicanism were all involved in witch hunts. And some witch hunts were done by states for non-religious reasons.

    In England witch finding was something done by the state. In fact the Witch-finder General Matthew Hopkins was opposed by the Anglican Church. Also, the witches that were tried under formal church proceeding had a much lower conviction rate than the secular courts.

    In addition, the author of “Malleus Maleficarum”, a book popular at the time throughout Europe about finding and testing witches, was an inquisitor but the book was unauthorised and was banned by the Catholic Church soon after publication.

    While the churches have some responsibility for setting up some of the pre-conditions for the witch hunts, saying any single thing is “very clearly” a cause or intention behind the witch hunts is just wrong.

  111. 111
    sirtooting .

    “Also, the witches that were tried under formal church proceeding had a much lower conviction rate than the secular courts.”

    In the US in 1942 only twenty-eight states allowed women to serve as jurors and not until 1973 could women serve on juries in all fifty states.
    It sounds like Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan or any traditional Islamic State, doesn’t it? .. Only men could judge men, and only men could judge women.
    That must be quite frightening, to be completely surrounded by men, judging you ..
    Why are you accusing a man .. Don’t ya know how you are ruining a his reputation.

    “Even if the behavior of the husband is reprehensible, and even if he has affairs with other women, the virtuous woman must revere her husband like a God. During infancy, a woman must obey her father. In marriage, she must obey her husband. After her husband dies, she must obey her sons. A woman should never govern herself. Laws of Manu, India, 1500 BCE.

    Laws of man ..

    Virtually Man’s entire written history is a litany of men turning somersaults, trying to find ways to justify their abuse of the other half of the human race in their in-humanitarian treatment of them. They hide behind things, to justify it to themselves, religions, biology, any excuse will do. As long as they can justify it to themselves.

    Gaddafi, visited girls schools in Libya , he went into classrooms, walked amongst the girls, the girls he indicated were worthy of his attention, he patted on the head, who were then taken from the school and he and his cohorts indulged themselves by sexually & physically abusing them, beating them and raping them ..
    That is all the history of man is..

    “Also, the witches that were tried under formal church proceeding had a much lower conviction rate than the secular courts.”

    There were no witches there, but there were plenty of sadists, who were intent on inflicting as much pain on women as they could, because it gave those men a HARD ON .. That is the history of man .. It gave him a hard on to inflict as much pain on others as he possibly could.. It makes him feel all warm and cosy inside .. Because nothing has changed in that regard ..

    Turning somersaults, when trying to find ways to deny the truth ..

    It gives them a sadistic sexual pleasure .. This is the history of man ..

    Saudi Arabia is man’s sadism on show, but it is not the only one, and it is not the first or the last .. Any excuse will do..
    When you talk to someone about sexual abuse, and that someone you are talking to, is then imagining what a sexual thrill it would be for him to commit that sexual abuse if he were doing it .. Then you are wasting your time, trying to get any coherent agreement from him, that the sexual abuse is wrong.

    If you fantasize about committing rape and you get a hard on from it, then it is very unlikely you will be able to agree anyone being accused of rape is doing anything wrong, because to admit that, is to agree that what you are doing is wrong, and you are never going to admit that, because it gives you a hard on.

    That’s why they spend their time turning somersaults, trying to justify it to themselves, because the alternative would be to agree, they are wrong and they can’t achieve a hard on by doing that..

  112. 112
    carnation

    @ SirTooting

    I urge you to read the lengthy diatribes from Schala and note how ridiculous and unnecessarily detailed her fantasies are. Then look at your own. Then learn.

    You are the extremes. Please stop it

  113. 113
    kestra

    Actually, when formally educated male doctors became deeply involved in childbirth in the early 20th century, maternal mortality rates spiked, in part due to increased chance of infection due to hospital deliveries and in part because the highly educated male doctors assumed all those uneducated women were lying about the complications that would go on to kill them. It took until the 1930s for doctors to uniformly adopt germ-prevention methods like hand washing and gloves and abandon practices that nigh-universally proved fatal, leading to the on-going, dramatic drop in maternal mortality from that time onward.

    Maternal Mortality in Britain: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/72/1/241s.full.pdf

    Spike in 1920s Maternal Mortality in the US: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/death_in_childbirth_doctors_increased_maternal_mortality_in_the_20th_century.2.html

    Also, according to Antonia Fraser in “The Weaker Vessel”, a study of women in 17th-Century England, the majority of people accused of witchcraft in England were old, poor women, and many were burned to death. This was considered more merciful than hanging or beheading because the accused witch had more time to repent of her sins and avoid Hell while she burned.

  114. 114
    Thil

    @kestra @113

    it’s not that they thought they were lying, it’s that’s they were ignoring anecdotal evidence.

    Also Are you sure about those dates? Germ theory was well established fact by 1930

  115. 115
    123454321

    “If you fantasize about committing rape and you get a hard on from it, then it is very unlikely you will be able to agree anyone being accused of rape is doing anything wrong, because to admit that, is to agree that what you are doing is wrong, and you are never going to admit that, because it gives you a hard on.”

    Wow…. just wow. Sirtoot is one hell of a bitter person.

  116. 116
    Ginkgo

    “Also Are you sure about those dates? Germ theory was well established fact by 1930″

    Ignaz Semmelweis and Thomas Watson were preaching about handwashing and antisepsis in the mid-1800s as a preventive measure agsianst “childbed fever.”

    Deaths for childbed fever did spike when women started going to hospitals to give birth. There was an epidemic of it back in the 1640s in a hospital in Paris, for instance. The real benefits of “patriarchal” (modern” medicine did not manifest instantly, like fliping on a light switch. They came on gradually with reductions in complications of pregnancy, emergency measures during birth, better fetal health due to advances in medieine, better psot-natal care for women.

    But long before male doctors got invovled childbirth was recognized as just plain dangerous. The Book of Coomon Prayer for centuries had a special service for the Churching of Women givng thanks for the women having come afely through the perils of childbirth. In Aztec society, where men’s status was determined by their prowess in war and willingness to face those dangers, a woman’s equivalent was childbirth. They saw it as being as dangerous as going to war.

    Humans have a uniquely hard time bearing up under pregancy and giving birth. No other mammal comes close. It’s basically impossible for a women to survive pregancy without a very strong social network – a pregnant woman is functionally defenseless and is pretty much incapable of finding sufficient food on her own to even get through the pregnancy. Of course women can give birth off on their own and have had to at times, but it’s always very precarious, rather than some kind of norm the way it is for so many other species. This can only be the result of a long evolutionary process.

  117. 117
    randomperson

    Lucy said:

    It’s the same activity that took place in Ancient Greece as they moved from a pantheon of goddesses and dark, unpredictable, capricious female nature worship to a pantheon of gods and worship of pure, clear, reliable masculine rationality.

    I don’t think these theories have much support from scholars these days. See Walter Burkert, for example. The latter is just a plainly inaccurate description of what we know of the historical Greek religion.

    Neolithic Europe seems to have been quite patri-everything as well (as pretty much every society in Europe that followed was) so certain theories about the supposed matri-Old Europe don’t seem that well-founded anymore, either.

  118. 118
    sirtooting .

    @ carnation .. No. 112
    I know it’s all taboo, isn’t it, we mustn’t say it ? .. Sweep it all under the carpet .. Hmm I know you would prefer a more sanitized version of history and down play the effects of misogyny.
    You have the ability to sound intelligent whilst saying the most stupid things.

    Whenever I see vile, misogynist, and aggressive people they are always followed by eloquent and seemingly reasonable commentators who reinforce their objectionable opinions. Often by calling those who criticise them mad or trolls or over the top, etc.

    The overtly vile are, in one sense, easier to dismiss; insidious people such as yourself are A little more difficult because you have what looks like a legitimate voice on a legitimate platform, but it is only a thin veneer and very quickly it becomes all too apparent.

    Confronting misogyny and revealing its core.. is heresy .. and is something one is never allowed to linger on for too long and all too soon, you hear the rallying cry of the misogynists falling over themselves in the rush to divert attention away from the root of it all being highlighted & revealed
    I don’t own the flattery gene, so I tell it how I see it .. You see? Obviously not .. You are too busy with the other stooges trying to sweep it all under the rug ..

    The sleep of reason, produces monsters

    Do you feel embarrassed? if not, then let me feel embarrassed for you.
    Extreme you say and how ridiculous and unnecessarily to the point .. No shit ..
    You are a sad sack..

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8Jz0ew_lifEJ:www.americanthinker.com/2005/04/defeating_misogyny_in_iran.html+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

    http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2013/10/15/a-chance-to-discuss-sexism-misogyny-in-science-communication-dnlee-bora-the-sciam-fiasco/

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/micwright/100010449/the-rise-of-the-bro-or-how-the-tech-industry-is-besieged-by-misogynist-hipster-morons/

    http://csgv.org/blog/2013/new-moms-organization-brings-misogynist-pro-gun-activists/

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uFqMa401N5sC&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=misogyny+tyranny+current&source=bl&ots=1pO8pNxky1&sig=IHjxdHIJIbHNk7hgVzEB0ot74Gc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t9LzUoCeDpDd7QbwhYGYCw&ved=0CIMBEOgBMAo#v=onepage&q=misogyny%20tyranny%20current&f=false

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9e4_t09yAcwJ:www.rawa.org/women.php+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BuP5j0H_GXEJ:anothervoice-greenleaf.org/2014/01/29/beware-the-tyranny-of-gender/+&cd=26&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

  119. 119
    sirtooting .

    There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.”
    Bertrand Russell.

    My own belief is that in most ages and in most places obscure psychological forces led men to adopt systems involving quite unnecessary cruelty, and that this is still the case among the most civilized races at the present day.”
    Bertrand Russell

    The essence of the conception of righteousness, therefore, is to afford an outlet for sadism by cloaking cruelty as justice.
    Bertrand Russell,

    Reason may be a small force, but it is constant, and works always in one direction, while the forces of unreason destroy one another in futile strife. Therefore, every orgy of unreason in the end strengthens the friends of reason, and shows afresh that they are the only true friends of humanity.”
    Bertrand Russell,

    You really should read Mr Bertrand Russell, how very astute and very observant he was.

  120. 120
    Thil

    @123454321 @115

    having a fantasy about anything is not wrong

  121. 121
    sheaf

    Thil, 119

    I strongly agree. If someone is into sexual violence or gets turned on by the thought of rape (a not insignificant number of both females and males are), it is nobodies buisness except him or her. I think the tendency of making this a thoughtcrime as exhibited by sirtooting is disgusting.

  122. 122
    Tamen

    Mr Bertrand Russell being astute and observant:

    ‘The attitude of Mary Wollstonecroft was thoroughly modern, but she was not imitated in this respect by the subsequent pioneers of women’s rights. They, on the contrary, were for the most part very rigid moralists, whose hope was to impose upon men the moral fetters which hitherto had only been endured by women’.

    page 69

    … there ought to be no law whatsoever on the subject of obscene publications

    page 54

    … frank pornography would do less harm if it were open and unashamed than it does when it is rendered interesting by secrecy and stealth. In spite of the law, nearly every fairly well-to-do man has in adolescence seen indecent photographs, and has been proud of obtaining possession of them because they were difficult to procure’

    page 92-93

    Quotes from: Bertrand Russell, Marriage and Morals, George Allen and Unwin, (London, 1929)

    Those with a skeptical mind can search for those quotes here (another edition so the page numbers will differ): http://books.google.no/books?id=8XJqAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=women%27s+rights

  123. 123
    Adiabat

    Kestra (113): In addition to what others have said above I will also point out that the time periods looked at in your source aren’t relevant to my point. We would need mortality figures from the time of the unlicensed midwife to the time when medical doctors were taking over childbirth, so early 1500’s to late 1700’s would be a useful set of data to compare how each compared wrt mortality rates during childbirth (though the books I’ve read on the subject all note an improvement due to the use of instruments such as forceps, even though early forceps sometimes resulted in deformities for the child; at least they were alive right?). A quick google search I’ve just done put New York State as introducing state licences for midwives at 1712 and I imagine other states and countries introduced similar restrictions at a small spread around this date (I know I’m being incredibly lazy here).

    As for Antonia Fraser and “the Weaker Vessel”: does she give her source for her claim, because it’s counter to everything we know about witchcraft in England? The general consensus was that a few may have been burned, were talking less than 10, but the rest (around 500) were generally hung. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft_Act):

    [Re Witchcraft Act 1604] The Acts of Elizabeth and James changed the law of witchcraft by making it a felony… Burning at the stake was eliminated except in cases of witchcraft that were also petty treason; most convicted were hanged instead.

    This site (http://www.historyextra.com/witchcraft) also details several witch hunts in England and Scotland, and states that they were all executed by hanging (or strangulation). The bodies were burnt afterwards, which may the source of confusion. The site also details many male, young and ‘non-poor’ accused.

  124. 124
    sirtooting .

    @ Tamen .. No.122

    “They, on the contrary, were for the most part very rigid moralists, whose hope was to impose upon men THE MORAL FETTERS WHICH HITHERTO HAD ONLY BEEN ENDURED BY WOMEN’.
    Have you any idea in what context that was written?.. , When you fell over yourself in the rush to copy and paste it in? Perhaps not.. eh

    “there ought to be no law whatsoever on the subject of obscene publications” .. Or this one either?
    The obscene publications act at that time did not distinguish between things that were scientifically beneficial or educational or pornographic, they were all regarded obscene and so were all equally censored .. You have no idea, of the context in which these statements are made.. Do ya?
    You just copy a paste a line, and think that will do .. Fortunately we are not all as ignorant or as gullible as you.
    It wasn’t a reference to pornography, it was a reference to the censoring of science and sex education.. which he was wholly against.

    Russell tears apart Christian ethics about marital morality, exposing its hypocrisies and contradictions through its rigid dogma of controlling women and inducing guilt about sex. Christianity–as well as the other Abrahamic religions of Judaism and Islam–create unhealthy, morbid and brutal view of natural sexual behavior.

    Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution . Bertrand Russell, Marriage and Morals

    “Men fear that their liberty to act in ways that are injurious to women will be curtailed[…] The instinct of the master to retain his mastery cannot be met by mere political arguments. But it is an instinct which finds less and less scope in the modern world, and it is fast being driven from this stronghold as it has been driven from others.
    Bertrand Russell.

  125. 125
    summerblues

    Folks, there is no such thing as Team Woody and Team Dylan. This is ridiculous and ya’ll know it. And no, not all of us who are “snark Team Polanski (I thought I made myself clear and provided a link; have you read Samantha’s story yet? Didn’t think so) are not “snark Team Woody. Treat this “Team” stuff with the contempt it deserves.

  126. 126
    Tamen

    I included the first quote because Bertrand Russell was judging most Women’s Rights pioneers for being wrong – for wanting to foist upon men the same disadvantage as women had (moral fetters). So I got the context, thanks. Incidentally I’ve heard smiilar criticism leveled at current feminists from MRAs.

    In the eagerness of stating that of the quotes were about obscene publication in the form of scientific and educational publications and hence wasn’t about pornography at all you ignored the other quote explicitly mentioning pornography:

    There is, however, a further ground for objecting to censorship, and that is that even frank pornography would do less harm if it were open and unashamed than it does when it is rendered interesting by secrecy and stealth. In spite of the law, nearly every fairly well-to-do man has in adolescence seen indecent photographs, and has been proud of obtaining possession of them because they were difficult to procure

    I guess that isn’t about pornography as well then?

    …that publications which are undoubtedly and frankly pornographic would do very little harm if sex education were rational’.

    And neither is this?

    See also here: http://www.the-philosopher.co.uk/mclach.htm

    Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution .

    In this quote there is no real difference between marriage and prostitution (both are portrayed as an exchange between livelihood and (undesired sex) and the difference in undesired sex endured by women is largely caused by more women were being married than there were prostitutes.

    Nobody seem to have thought about whether men were having undesired sex in marriages…

  127. 127
    sirtooting .

    “In spite of the law, nearly every fairly well-to-do man has in adolescence seen indecent photographs, and has been proud of obtaining possession of them because they were difficult to procure”

    yeah, that is a bit like paedophiles .. and using women as toilets to piss in .. objects .. not humans with feelings and emotions .. who must remain emotionally dead .. to satisfy men’s needs .. and that is what patriarchy is all about .. men’s needs to abuse must be satisfied, to achieve a hard on.

    “Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution .” ., He is calling it rape .. endured .. not a relationship .. but an enslavement .. a coercian .. men’s needs come first ..

    “Nobody seem to have thought about whether men were having undesired sex in marriage”
    Maybe that is because at the time women weren’t supposed to enjoy sex .. they were supposed to endure it .. because it was obey the husband or else .. be thrown out to the others wolves who are ready and waiting to claw themselves a piece ..
    Men fear that their liberty to act in ways that are injurious to women will be curtailed.] The instinct of the master to retain his mastery cannot be met by mere political arguments.

    Well to do fathers took their sons to brothels to help them realise their manhood, it is well known, many of the prostitutes were children, girls from as young as 8 or 9 yrs.
    When there was a suggestion such brothels be banned, the well to do fathers became dismayed.. and stated but how, will we teach our son’s about their manhood and what it means to be a man.

  128. 128
    JT

    having a fantasy about anything is not wrong(Thil)

    Define wrong?

  129. 129
    Ginkgo

    “There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths.”

    Oh, the irony!

  130. 130
    Tamen

    yeah, that is a bit like paedophiles .. and using women as toilets to piss in .. objects .. not humans with feelings and emotions .. who must remain emotionally dead .. to satisfy men’s needs .. and that is what patriarchy is all about .. men’s needs to abuse must be satisfied, to achieve a hard on.

    Yeah, there is no difference between having a pin-up poster and using women as toilets to piss in and of course having a pin-up picture of an adult woman is a bit like paedophilia. You should try to dial the hyperbole back and not keep it at 11! all the time.

    You also should consider what child victims of paedophile rapist and molesters as well as women who have been abused and violated in a manner that included being urinated on would think of you equating their victimization with men obtaining and looking at indecent photographs.

    Anyway, the point remains; Bertrand Russell argued against making pornography illegal and states that it would do very little harm given rational sex education and a less moralistic society. Points by Russell which I found astute.

    Maybe that is because at the time women weren’t supposed to enjoy sex .. they were supposed to endure it ..

    Considering that I believe in the radical notion that women are human too I’d wager that at that time a number of women indeed did enjoy sex (even if society told them they weren’t supposed to). 1 Corinthians 7:1-40 includes this:

    For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

    Although men have more rights in initiating a divorce in Islam a woman can initiate Khula (divorce) according to shari’a law when she can prove that the husband did not have intercourse with her for more than two months.

    These indicate that there indeed was expectations of the men as well to perform their “marital duties”.

  131. 131
    Lucy

    Ginkgo

    “But long before male doctors got invovled childbirth was recognized as just plain dangerous. The Book of Coomon Prayer for centuries had a special service for the Churching of Women givng thanks for the women having come afely through the perils of childbirth. ”

    The church into of women after giving birth was not to give thanks for their survival, it was to cleanse them of their defilement and sin so they could be readmitted to services,

  132. 132
    sirtooting .

    @ Tamen .. No 130

    Yeah, there is no difference between having a pin-up poster and indecent photographs,
    A pin up poster of a child pop star or indecent photographs of a child .. There is no difference in your book apparently..
    .

    These indecent photographs, come from where? Neither you or Mr Russell, could careless about that, but only care about owning them, to wank off too. And that is the reason people want to own them, and because that desire is so strong, they couldn’t care less about the women in the indecent photos in questioning, where have they come from.

    Paedophiles .. “In spite of the law, nearly every paedophile has seen indecent photographs of children, and have been proud of obtaining possession of them because they were difficult to procure”

    What is the reason for wanting to procure indecent photographs of children & women and own them? To wank off to .. To achieve a hard on ..

    They couldn’t careless about prostitutes being pimped, being sold to meet men’s sexual needs. .. They couldn’t careless, as a culture, as men.
    What they who procure & own indecent images of children and women ,care about is, that their sexual needs are met, how that is achieved is irrelevant, only that it is achieved .. No questions asked .. An attitude of indifference to other peoples suffering, because it achieves them, their hard on by being indifferent.

    I know all I need to know about paedophiles, my aunt when she was 10 years old was raped, when she was 23,she married, when she was 24 she discovered she was not able to have any children, due to internal damage caused by being raped, when she was 25, she was so desperate to become a mother, she had a phantom pregnancy.
    They admitted her to hospital, and they told her she had miscarried, to try to ease her mind, but their was no baby to miscarry. She told my mother, the day they discharge me from here, on that day I will die .. Two days later, she left the hospital and did exactly that.
    My mother was with her and as they walked away from the hospital, my aunt dropped down dead, just as they walked, she dropped down dead .. My mother sat in the gutter and wept .. Broken hearted .. It was devastating, it left a husband who had hoped to be a parent and have his own family .. All alone. It broke his heart, it broke our hearts ..the damage caused by rapists .. who do it to achieve their hard ons .. who do it to achieve a kick .. who do it, to feel all smug and warm and cosy inside .. devastate families, who’s lives will never be the same again .. because of self absorbed, self centered, grotesque monsters, who could less about anyone, but themselves
    My brother when he was aged 8 was raped but I have no intentions of talking about that particular devastating incident, and the effect it had on him and our family ..
    Mr Bertrand Russell was also an advocate of Eugenics, he was a very observant and astute man, it doesn’t mean, he was right on everything by any stretch of the imagination, does it?

    The attitude of the male in all these cultures through the centuries, is .. Get me my indecent photos, get me my indecent images, get me women and children that I can abuse .. It will give me a hard on .. I don’t care how you do it, no questions asked .. Just get them .. I have a need to wank .. And that desire is greater, than any need to have a conscience, and to recognise they are abusers who couldn’t careless who is being abused to satisfy their needs, and all under the umbrella, of no questions asked.

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sbRoJpKf1I8J:www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mgtow-general-discussion/5604-fathers-older-men-taking-sons-brothels%253B-what-do-you-think.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

    Any excuse will do, they will use anything to justify their abuse, religions, biology .. Whatever mask they can hide behind to excuse their abuse, they will ..

  133. 133
    Tamen

    sirtooting: First off, I find your constant conflation of women and children to be quite misogynist. By conflating those two you either remove some of women’s agency or you attribute adult agency which they don’t have to children.

    I do note that you, as I suspected you eventually would, disagree with Bertrand Russell on his points about pornorgraphy rather than continuing to hold on to your first retort which was an attempt to claim that Bertrand Russell wasn’t talking about pornography. If I were an optimist I’d take this as a sign that you aren’t just an ideologue unableTunwilling to re-orient themselves accordingly when facts and other perspectives appear.

    I’ll repeat myself from the last time you told me about your brother’s and aunt’s horrible rape: I am sorry they experienced that. No-one should.

    The attitude of the male in all these cultures through the centuries, is .. Get me my indecent photos, get me my indecent images, get me women and children that I can abuse .. It will give me a hard on .. I don’t care how you do it, no questions asked .. Just get them .. I have a need to wank .. And that desire is greater, than any need to have a conscience, and to recognise they are abusers who couldn’t careless who is being abused to satisfy their needs, and all under the umbrella, of no questions asked.

    Your total lack of qualifiers in your texts leaves us with no way to read this without it including your brother, your bereaved uncle as they too are men (or male as you like to put it).

  134. 134
    sirtooting .

    @ Tamen

    Bertrand Russell did not acknowledge by purchasing indecent pictures of women, he himself was perpetuating a crime .. it was supply and demand , he demanded it, and they supplied it .. he didn’t care how they supplied, only that they did.. no questions asked

    “In spite of the law, nearly every fairly well-to-do man has in adolescence seen indecent photographs, and has been PROUD of obtaining possession of them because they were difficult to procure”

    That is no different to

    Paedophiles .. “In spite of the law, nearly every paedophile has seen indecent photographs of children, and have been PROUD of obtaining possession of them because they were difficult to procure”

    Proud to abuse women and children, and those men demand that a ready supply of women and children be made readily available just so they can abuse them .. How that is achieved .. neither you, or Mr Russell or any men who view all those pornographic images & videos is dare to ask how .. no questions asked.

    Your hubris is as expected, just as Mr Russell’s was, in him ignoring the fact that because he demanded it, someone was else was willing to supply it .. and he asked no questions, how? why? .. just where & when can I purchase them?
    He felt elated he had achieved his goal .. an image of a naked woman, he could wank himself off to.. he didn’t care who the woman was, or why it was her .. he wanted to see a naked woman .. and he got what he wanted, whether she was coerced to reveal her body in that way, was irrelevant to Mr Russell .. the policy of no questions asked, just tell me where i can buy them..
    This was and is abuse and he played his part in perpetuating it, just as many many others do .. supply and demand.

  135. 135
    123454321

    Sirtoot – Who makes more money out of pornography – men or women?

  136. 136
    123454321

    Are there more women volunteering & contributing towards the making of pornography, or men?

  137. 137
    Thil

    @123454321 @135

    both

  138. 138
    sirtooting .

    @ 135 .. @ .. 137

    Saudi Arabia, is a revelation, but only in the fact that it reveals the depth men can sink to in their depravity ..
    It is an obscenity, an offense to one’s own humanity and dignity as a human being as a person to know this is a reality and not someone’s diabolical disgusting fantasy

    In spite of the law, nothing will stop them from achieving their goals .. To degrade women and children .. To indulge themselves in abusing others to achieve their hard ons .. In spite of the law .. They enslave women and children into performing acts they have no desire to perform and they have no care in how that is achieved .. Only that it is .. No questions asked, In their market of supply and demand… And that demand is higher than high, is higher than imaginable.

    You have no right in your culture to expect women and children to be paraded nude for your sexual amusement, you have no right in your culture to expect pornography to exist, you have no right in your culture to expect prostitution to exist for your sadistic sexual pleasure, you have no right in your culture to expect a sex slave trade to exist, you have no right in your culture to sexually, verbally, or physically abuse others because it pleases you,. You have no right in your culture to expect women and children will be made readily available just for you to degrade and abuse, for your own perverted amusement. Where all those are concerned you have no rights at all in that regard.

    Any men who view these pornographic images & videos, who never care to ask, how did you get these women & children to strip off their clothes and allow you to fuck them are criminals, who play their part in perpetuating the crime.. No questions asked, except , please tell me where & when can I purchase them.. is a perversion of the worst kind
    Supply and demand ..
    To appease and placate these males, these males indulgences are pandered to and flattered in their culture .. They demand it and it is supplied in abundance .. And what if it is not supplied?. Well, in spite of the law .. Nothing will stop them from achieving their goals .. To degrade women and children .. To indulge themselves in abusing others to achieve their hard ons ..
    Saudi Arabia, is a revelation, but only in the fact that it reveals the depth men can sink to in their depravity … and they expect others to accommodate their depravity by allowing it space and time to exist.

  139. 139
    Lucy

    123454321

    “Sirtoot – Who makes more money out of pornography – men or women?”

    Without a shadow of a doubt, the main financial beneficiaries of pornograohy and the sex trade are men. Like the fashion industry and the beauty industry and every other industry in the world. The billions of dollars generated from the trade in women goes into men’s pockets.

  140. 140
    Schala

    Female sex workers, female porn actors and female models are paid way way more than male equivalents. That the oligarchs who are fucking rich are mostly male is immaterial to the 99.999% of men who aren’t Bill Gates or as rich as him.

  141. 141
    sirtooting .

    @ Lucy
    To appease and placate these males, these males indulgences are pandered to and flattered in their culture .. They demand it and it is supplied in abundance .. And what if it is not supplied?. Well, in spite of the law .. Nothing will stop them from achieving their goals .. To degrade women and children .. To indulge themselves in abusing others to achieve their hard ons ..
    Saudi Arabia, is a revelation, but only in the fact that it reveals the depth men can sink to in their depravity … and they expect others to accommodate their depravity by allowing it space and time to exist.

    Bertrand Russell didn’t believe in censorship because he didn’t believe men would censor what they craved and he was quite aware, if they could find away to circumvent censorship they would, so he saw censorship as pointless, because they would ignore it .
    These men think they have a right to degrade women and children, because it is what these men crave .. and they think we should all look the other way, whilst they do it..

  142. 142
    123454321

    Sirtoot, I think your accusations against men are highly offensive and your shaming tactics are pathetic to say the least. You base your arguments on the actions of a tiny, tiny percentage of men who I agree can act wholly inappropriately but you don’t give a hoot about the vast majority of good men who toil to support their wives and children as good upstanding citizens. Your rantings are extreme, provocative, completely biased as well as non-factual and you have no qualms about offending men out of pure hatred towards them. You are bitter and twisted and no amount of arguing or edification would alter your hatred. You talk about men as if they are only interested in sex with children, rape and oppressing women. You couldn’t be further from the truth when it comes to the vast, vast majority of men. You talk about men getting hard ons – a mere biological reaction – but you would never recognise that women love sex too and, if i were to reverse the argument, i’d talk about women getting wet at the thought of bedding a male for her own selfish benefits. I could ask you why virtually every magazine aimed at girls and women contains sexually themed articles and writings which besmirch and ridicule men etc.

    And I’m fairly certain that Lucy is wrong about the financial benefits of the porn industry, although I’m only going on intuition. I’m happy to be proven wrong?

  143. 143
    123454321

    And the thing is, sirttoot, is that I reckon most readers of this blog would agree that you do more damage to feminism, as well as men in general, with your spewed rantings! +1

  144. 144
    Thil

    @JT @128

    Can we both agree it has something to do with not harming other people? If so no matter how sick your fantasies are they can’t hurt anyone unless you don’t have self restraint

  145. 145
    JT

    @Thil

    Have you ever been around someone who was mad at you but they were smiling? How comfortable did you feel?

  146. 146
    sheaf

    @JT

    I woud not feel comfortable. Just as I do not find scatological fetishes comfortable. This does not mean that either the mad smiling person or the fetishist does anything wrong.

  147. 147
    Thil

    @JT @146

    “Have you ever been around someone who was mad at you but they were smiling? How comfortable did you feel?”

    What’s your point?

  148. 148
    Schala

    Probably something about thought crimes.

  149. 149
    Lucy

    Schala

    “Female sex workers, female porn actors and female models are paid way way more than male equivalents. That the oligarchs who are fucking rich are mostly male is immaterial to the 99.999% of men who aren’t Bill Gates or as rich as him.”

    No, a tiny number of famous female porn “stars” are paid more. The vast majority of “sex workers”, whether they work on film in some skanky voyeur’s basement, or in some skanky producer’s rented villa, or in some skanky piss-soaked single bed in a skanky brothel or in some skanky “Gentlemen’s” club as a freelancer, or behind the wheeley bins are paid a pittance or are paid in drugs and booze.

    The people who run the websites, and the porn mags and the production companies and the TV channels and the sex clubs and the sex tourism holidays and the trafficking rings, they are the ones who make way more than their (non-existent) female equivalents. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it. The people who do the work are never the ones making the money. Never.

  150. 150
    Thil

    @Lucy

    how do you know porn sites are run by men?

  151. 151
    123454321

    “The vast majority of “sex workers”, whether they work on film in some skanky voyeur’s basement, or in some skanky producer’s rented villa, or in some skanky piss-soaked single bed in a skanky brothel or in some skanky “Gentlemen’s” club as a freelancer, or behind the wheeley bins are paid a pittance or are paid in drugs and booze.”

    But the money is still flowing in the male >>> female direction, on the whole.

    “The people who do the work are never the ones making the money. Never.”

    Wrong. Female porn stars, for example, earn far more than their male counterparts. The production company takes 10-15% of the star’s fee per sitting. Look it up. Women are the ones making the most money out of the sex industry. The money flows from men to women. Men do make money, I don’t deny that, but not as much as women in the grand scheme of things. You like to blame everything on men but I guess that’s understandable coming from a feminist.

    By the way, one third of internet porn surfers are women. And it’s well known that many women won’t admit to watching porn so the true figure could well be equal, in which case where does that lead our arguments to?

  152. 152
    123454321

    Who said that men have more spending power and decision-making influence?

    http://www.trendsight.com/content/view/40/204/

  153. 153
    sirtooting .

    @ Thil No. 150

    How do you know porn sites are run by men?
    Oh we know that, just as we know .. In spite of the law, nothing will stop them from achieving their goals .. To degrade women and children .. To indulge themselves in abusing others to achieve their hard ons .. In spite of the law .. They enslave women and children into performing acts they have no desire to perform and they have no care in how that is achieved .. Only that it is .. No questions asked, In their market of supply and demand… And that demand is higher than imaginable.
    Just as we know “In spite of the law, nearly every fairly well-to-do man has in adolescence seen indecent photographs, and has been PROUD to obtain possession of them because they were difficult to procure”

    Just as we know child-rights group Terre des Hommes announced that they’d spent nearly three months conducting a giant sting op: nearly 20,000 Web users had contacted to a digital 10-year-old named “Sweetie,” with 1,000 of them offering ‘her’ money for sex acts performed on camera. Sweetie was a digitally rendered 10-year-old Filipino girl who appeared on chatrooms. When males contacted her, volunteers at desks in a warehouse near Amsterdam replied instead, taking care not to send them anything. The practice snared would-be predators across the globe: 254 of the 1,000 pedophiles who offered Sweetie money to take her clothes off were from the U.S.; 110 were from the UK; and 103 were from India.

    Terre des Hommes identified the would-be child abusers, which came from 65 countries, via their Skype and social media details.
    http://www.bustle.com/articles/8364-digital-sweetie-snares-20000-would-be-child-predators-identifies-1000

    The project’s director, Hans Guyt, hopes that the project — part of Terre des Hommes’ initiative to stop “webcam sex tourism” — will demonstrate how easy it is to catch pedophiles who solicit kids on the Web. Though the practice is, of course, banned by the UN and worldwide laws, the crime requires a ”new way of policing,” says Guyt, because neither predator nor prey are likely to come forward.

    “The biggest problem is that the police don’t take action until child victims file reports, but children almost never report these crimes,” Guyt said.

    The 1,000 perpetrators identified by the organization will be turned in to police. But law enforcement has mixed feelings about the Terre des Hommes’ sting op: “We believe that criminal investigations using intrusive surveillance measures should be the exclusive responsibility of law enforcement agencies,” Europol spokesman Soren Pedersen said.

    Only six webcam sex predators have ever been caught by law enforcement.

    Why aren’t they interested .. One wonders .. Not really .. Too many of them .. Right now, as many as 750,000 child predators are online at any given moment .. Not enough courts and not enough prisons, & how do we know they are mainly men? More to the point .. How can we not know?

    Men preying on children .. Webcam child-sex tourism is distinct from child pornography and human trafficking, which have become hardened industries controlled by international criminal syndicates, run by men who make billions from it.
    They are run by men .. No questions asked, for the benefit of men .. To appease them and placate them .. And they fall over themselves in the rush to circumvent censorship .. Where there is a will , there is a way, they say .. And they definitely have the will to get their grubby soiled hands involved in the supply & demand of it all.

    All across the world men are involved in it, up to their necks .. No questions asked just get us our porn, we want it now, where & when can we get it.. we don’t care who you abuse to get it .. just get it for us

    How do we know it is mainly men?
    How can we not know?

  154. 154
    sirtooting .

    @ 12345 ..Once I caught a fish alive ..

    What did you say?

    “Sirtoot, I think your accusations against men are highly offensive”
    Do you, really?
    I think you are offensive, I think you are a disgrace to humanity, due to the fact you don’t own any, you are emotionally dead, you lack empathy and honesty, you lack everything that makes a human being decent.

    I talk of abuse and you talk of money .. Your bleeding heart is affronted not by abuse, but by the thought of money.
    To think that women have to put up with the likes of men like, sweating, and slobbering all over them, makes one wretch.

    I think Saudi Arabia is offensive, and it is only a mirror image of how the rest of the world has treated women in the past and reveals the depth men can sink to in their depravity ..
    It is an obscenity, an offense to one’s own humanity and dignity as a human being as a person to know this was the reality in the West and is still a reality now and not someone’s diabolical disgusting fantasy.

    Islam defends itself from criticism by threatening violence .. Its blasphemy to criticise Islam .. Just as it is to criticise the male and his misogyny .. This criticisms will be met with threats of violence or worse. A conscious process of intimidation.

    I think the 100,000 web sites dedicated to child porn on the internet is offensive, it reveals the depth men can sink to in their depravity ..
    It is an obscenity, an offense to one’s own humanity and dignity as a human being as a person to know these sites actually exist and are not someone’s diabolical disgusting fantasy.

    An old conversation ..
    Me
    “Can you imagine arranging for your daughter to be raped, by someone you had chosen yourself.?”
    Men did that as a culture, all minds thought alike, some still do. Historical Fact & Current Fact ..

    Your pathetic little reply ..
    Ohh, there goes the rape card, you sneaky little thing, you! Dads raping their daughters, what a cool explanation to supporting the female superiority journey.

    Me
    “How strange, the rulers claim they were oppressed,”…
    You
    …When in actual fact the real rulers were the females hidden away in their protective little shells that had been built by men. The word “oppressed” should be replaced by the word “protected”.
    Me
    “they had complete control of a culture they engineered”…
    You
    …Yes, the women engineered this by virtue of the fact that they CHOSE not to be part of the competitive, dangerous, evolving, big, wide world. It was dangerous and cold out there and they chose the easier and safer options. Don’t blame the fucking men for engineering the fact that they ended up with the shitty end of the stick because that would be dumb!

    Me ..
    I am sure the Saudi women are all in full agreement with you, whilst they are beaten into submission, how could they not agree with you? When it would be the only way to make those beating them stop. .. As long as women concur with men, everything is ok, it’s only when they don’t, the beatings start again.
    Me
    ” Men ran everything, owned everything, enforced everything and yet claim they were and are oppressed.”…
    You
    …Yes, that’s right, men (on the whole) went right out their, put their necks on the line, built the world and just as things are supposedly getting safer they provide a conduit to equality (because that’s the right thing to do) and then feminist come along and say women were fucking oppressed and have zero recognition for anything that men have done or continue to do! Oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected. Make up your own mind, that’s fine.

    Me,
    Oh know men are getting their full recognition for what they have done and are doing.
    We can see this reality of how men protected women by the example of Saudi Arabia, who’s traditions are firmly entrenched and in Afghanistan, China, India, where they fall over themselves in the rush to murder females because they aren’t born the gender the male prefers .. “THE MALE” .. Who THEY REGARD IS MORE VALUABLE THAN THE FEMALE, Due to male propaganda that is perpetuated all over the world. And Spewed out constantly by you no less.
    Me
    “No laws existed for rape in marriage, because men didn’t regard raping their wives and daughters a crime, because wives and daughters were not regarded as people but a piece of property a man owned and they being his property, he could do as he pleased and he did.”

    You .. a pathetic little response by you, because you can’t think of anything to justify it
    You’re getting low on rape cards.
    Me
    “This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector..”
    You
    Oh, right, ok, so you see all men as cruel and oppressive dictators who masquerade as protectors. Oh, I get it now, you hate all men, despite what men have brought to the table over thousands of years.

    Me
    Ah what men have bought to the table .. violence, hate .. loathing for the female of the species .. You mean that ?.. the thing you are full of ..

    John Wesley (1703-91): “Wife: Be content to be insignificant. What loss would it be to God or man had you never been born.”

    “If women become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth,that is why they are there.” Martin Luther.

    Me,
    In ancient Assyria, the punishment for rape was the handing over of the rapist’s wife to the husband of his victim, to use as he desired. Most gruesomely of all, some cultures practised what anthropologists have called ritual widow murder (or ritual widow suicide), when women would be killed on the funeral pyre of their dead husband. This was common throughout India and China until the twentieth century, and this practise is still occurring in India.

    The practice of foot binding on females in China lasted a thousand years and they believe over that period over 4,5 Billions females were crippled due to it.. And the only reason they can find for this said practise is due to the fetish the males had for seeing females with small feet. The males were turned on by it, so they fell over themselves to cripple 4.5 Billion Females. Wow .. Can you Adam and Eve it.

    What have men done for thousands of years?.. Continually created cultures like Islam and China .. Where they have continually promoted the idea .. The male is more valuable than the female .. His potential is the one that was allowed to flourish because they said he was more valuable than the female ..

    “Even if the behavior of the husband is reprehensible, and even if he has affairs with other women, the virtuous woman must revere her husband like a God. During infancy, a woman must obey her father. In marriage, she must obey her husband. After her husband dies, she must obey her sons. A woman should never govern herself. Laws of Manu, India, 1500 BCE.

    “When a woman misbehaves and fails to do her duties at home, the husband is entitled to submit her to slavery. This service may be done at the home of anyone designated by the husband and, while it lasts, it is licit for the husband to marry another woman.” Hamurabi Code, Babylon, circa 1700 BCE.

    The doctrine of all their man made religions .. Is exactly the same .. There is nothing to choose between any of them..

    “Men are superior to women because Allah gave men supremacy over women. Therefore, men receive from Allah twice as much as women. Husbands who are disobeyed by their wives can punish them, confine them to bed and even beat them. Women are the greatest calamity men received fro Allah.” Quran, written by disciples of Mohammed, Arabia, circa 700 BCE

    “A woman should venerate her husband like a God. Every day in the morning, nine consecutive times, she must postrate at the feet of her husband and ask, ‘My lord, what do you want me to do?’” Zaratustra, Persian philosopher, circa 600 BCE.

    “Women have no existence and no essence; they are not, they are nothing. Mankind occurs as male or female, as something or nothing. Woman has no share in ontological reality, no relation to the thing-in-itself, which, in the deepest interpretation, is the absolute, is God.” Otto Weininger

    “What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother,
    it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman…
    I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function
    Of bearing children.”
    Saint Augustine (the prominent pioneer of Western theology)
    and that was the foundation of the West and all it’s ideologies come from there. It was an intrinsic part of the culture and its influence was devastating for the female of the species who was forever punished for not being born male.

    “Nature makes women when it cannot make men. Women are, therefore, inferior men.” Aristotle, Greece, circa 400 BCE.

    Reformer, founder of Scottish Presbyterianism John Knox (1513-72): “Woman was made for only one reason, to serve and obey man.”
    St. Thomas Aquinas: “Summa Theological” (92) .. SKIVVY
    “Women are an embryonic defect”

    “Nature makes women when it cannot make men. Women are, therefore, inferior men.” Aristotle, Greece, circa 400 BCE.
    “Children, idiots, the mentally disturbed, and women, do not have the capacity to transact business.” Henry VIII, England, circa 1500 CE.

    Me
    “The only thing men ever protected was men’s own self interests .. They enslaved females who they needed to skivvy for them .. This then freed them from their own domestic chores which they claimed were beneath them, because their potential they thought important and without exception thought women’s was not.”

    Your full of shit, you really are. You give zero recognition for the female’s contribution and you’re a bigoted, self-indulgent radical, militant misogynist of the highest order.

    You fall over yourself to tell us men die in war, but omit the fact women do as well and only the men are armed and men were totally against arming women, but sadly the same men weren’t as much against shooting, bombing and raping women who were unarmed. They dislike the thought of arming women.. They are totally against it, but they have nothing against killing them, or raping them and claiming them as spoils of war .. It’s their payoff .. They decide to reward themselves with .. Hey we been hired as killers .. And now we deserve our just reward .. Spoils of war .. No Geneva Convention for women ..

    At the end of WWII, Russian soldiers waged a 4 year rape campaign against German women. That is as virtually as long as the original war. They didn’t just rape German women, they raped any females available, ranging from one yr to 80 years ..

    Have you heard of that war, the rape campaign that lasted for 4 years? Of course you haven’t, that war is never mentioned, it’s to be ignored and swept under the rug .. They were so brave those soldiers raping 1 yr old baby girls, and women aged 80yrs .. Some ripping them open with broken bottles..How many got medals for that do you think?

    You don’t tell us about these things men have done, why not? Surely you are proud of them .. Keeping the bitches who aren’t worth spit in their place .. Who in your eyes aren’t worth a candle to the valuable man ..
    You must think your bro’s did you proud..

    Have you ever noticed it is only male run totalitarian states who are against democracies ..

    It is a wonder any exist, considering the abuse and hatred the female has put up with at the hands of the male, and that abuse has no end in sight .. not whilst people like you exist.
    ,

  155. 155
    Lucy

    Thil

    ” how do you know that porn sites are run by men?”

    Via the medium of looking things up,

    Manwin, Mindgeek.co.uk. The kings of smit

    http://nymag.com/news/features/70985/index4.html

  156. 156
    Lucy

    1234

    “But the money is still flowing in the male >>> female direction, on the whole.”

    How do you figure that out? The money flows uphill, to the board room, not downhill to the people getting thinks stuffed into their orifices and spaffed on their faces.

  157. 157
    Schala

    How do you figure that out? The money flows uphill, to the board room, not downhill to the people getting thinks stuffed into their orifices and spaffed on their faces.

    Using your kind of reasoning, we can then say the money flows from the males in the boardroom to their girlfriends, wives and children (including their female children). Ultimately, it flows back to women.

    And there, I win.

  158. 158
    sirtooting .

    @ Schala.

    You don’t win anything, when that money is spent on making their homes comfortable for them to live in, in luxury whilst abused children live in squalor and who are degraded for the benefit of men ..

    20,000 Web users connected to a digital 10-year-old named “Sweetie,” with 1,000 of them offering ‘her’ money for sex acts performed on camera.
    They were all men and not one woman amongst them ..
    How much do the abused children get or abused women get ?.. nothing .. they get nothing accept being degraded for the benefit of men .. who trample over themselves to be involved in the abuse.

    All across the world men are involved in it, up to their necks .. No questions asked just get us our porn, we want it now, where & when can we get it.. we don’t care who you abuse to get it .. just get it for us

    How do we know it is mainly men?
    How can we not know?

  159. 159
    Schala

    Yes, yes sirtooting, keep talking to the wall.

    *pats the head of sirtooting*

    They think I’m actually reading their posts! Haha.

  160. 160
    sirtooting .

    @Schala .. No 159.

    Why don’t the law do anything about it .. ? Because they can’t .. Because the problem is so vast, they do not have the ability to imprison all those involved .. The problem is so overwhelming .. All they do is, sweep it under the rug and ignore it .. just like you .. who dismiss it as irrelevant
    At any given time 750,000 child molesters are on line ..
    Not enough police, not enough courts, not enough prisons, to deal with a problem that is so overwhelming ..
    So great as to render resistance or opposition useless:

    “Yes, yes sirtooting, keep talking to the wall!” ..
    I am so glad you could spare us some of your time, to confirm, that you are what one has always suspected, indeed you readily admit you are as thick as a brick and just as interesting as one, no doubt ..
    Now get back inline with all the other bricks, you are dismissed. As you have made it quite plain, you have nothing to add to a conversation except a void

    And one should avoid people like you at all costs, for fear of becoming .. Well, as thick and as dull as a brick.

  161. 161
    Ginkgo

    Schala,
    “Yes, yes sirtooting, keep talking to the wall. ”

    Schala, you are not the wall. That’s pretty obvious.

  162. 162
    123454321

    Yeah, you’re right sirtoot, women are never violent towards men.

    http://j4mb.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/one-is-too-many-hypocrisy-laid-bare/

    And if you search the same site just a few posts down you’ll find a shocking video link to a disgusting woman sexually abusing a male child on a train while other women just stand there laughing. Will she get arrested by police? I doubt it. But if that were a man…..

  163. 163
    Ginkgo

    123, stop that mansplaining! Any decent person can see that that boy was harrassing that woman. She’s probably severely traumatized by the experience. She a survivor, a rape survivor! He’s really just a rapist.

  164. 164
    carnation

    @ Schala/SirToot

    You are different sides of the same inane coin.

    Meanwhile, away from the keyboard warriors, 500k has been allocated to male survivors/victims. Not enough but a move in the right direction.

    And, of course, MRAs had literally nothing to do with this positive development. And it remains steadfastly true that MRA theory pathologises victims of sex crimes and is retrograde, reactionaty, cliched gibberish.

  165. 165
    Schala

    Aww how cute, carnation joins in and says stupid stuff as always. At least it’s mostly readable.

  166. 166
    sirtooting .

    @ Carnation

    A cultural, universal Misogyny, male tribal violence .. What’s that coming over the hill, armed to the teeth, rabid and frothing from the mouth .. Is it a monster, is it a monster?

    http://library.flawlesslogic.com/massrape.htm
    The war of Gendercide .. The misogynist revealed, in all his glory .. Not the war he wants to publicise, for fear it will reveal the true monster contained there in.

    I’m afraid 500k, won’t do it, when it comes to protecting Females from Male Tribal violence ..

    they literally raped more European women than had ever before been raped in the history of the world

    They abused, raped and starved to death more German babies than there ever were Jews in Germany.

    Just your ordinary boy next door, armed to the teeth, unleashes all his perverted fantasies and makes them a reality, the sadist contained within is unleashed and revealed

    But the details are censored, are buried, swept under the rug, to portray a different version of events, the one they want to portray .. That glorifies the male as a hero, not the violent rapist bullying sadistic thug that he really is..

    It is blasphemy to criticise Islam, just as it is blasphemy to criticise the male and his misogyny .. and they will equally turn somersaults in trying to find ways to justify their hatred of the female kind because they come from the exactly the same side of a coin
    The universal trademark of the misogynist, attempt to justify the unjustifiable and deflect all attention away from his atrocities

    A Deadly Preference For Male Offspring: The Killing Of Baby Girls In India And Pakistan
    http://www.ibtimes.com/deadly-preference-male-offspring-killing-baby-girls-India-pakistan-1406582

    Oh No, men are getting their full recognition for what they have done and are doing.
    We can see this reality of how males protect females by the example of Saudi Arabia, who’s traditions are firmly entrenched and in Afghanistan, China, India, where they fall over themselves in the rush to murder females because they aren’t born the gender the male prefers .. “THE MALE” ..

    Deflect away, Carnation, deflect all attention away .. The war against the female gender .. through continued universal male tribalism ..The GENDERCIDE, the mass murder, mass rape of females at the hands of males .. well 500k, ,, just won’t cover it ..
    I know you are doing your very best to discredit me .. but you see .. your opinion means nothing to me .. opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one .. and I usually keep mine to myself, I just rely on the facts, to do my talking for me ..
    I see you have your broom ready, but you are too late, I have just removed the rug ..

  167. 167
    carnation

    @ SirToot

    I doubt anyone reads your convoluted tripe.

    @ Schala

    What was stupid about what I wrote?

  168. 168
    123454321

    “opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one .. and I usually keep mine to myself”

    And that’s one huge arsehole you must have there, sirtoot, what with all the shit that pours out.

  169. 169
    sirtooting .

    10 MILLION Females RAPED and murdered .. BY WHO? .. by The so called liberators .. who liberated their own sadistic perverted sexual fantasies in their male tribal misogyny.

    .. I intend to give the male of the species his full recognition for all the things he has done and is doing .. and that recognition ..He fully deserves ..

    How brave they were, ripping baby girls open with broken bottles .. Wow they deserve a medal .. to hang around there necks in shame .. WHAT A FUCKING DISGRACE, MAN IS
    Cartman, if you don’t feel embarrassed? Then let me feel embarrassed for you .. you miserable undignified excuse for a man.

  170. 170
    carnation

    @ SirToot

    You are an MRA’s wet dream. You confirm to them their need to exist. Your nonsense, your bile, encourages them. They need you, and you need them. You are two sides of the same coin.

  171. 171
    Ginkgo

    carnation,

    “Meanwhile, away from the keyboard warriors, 500k has been allocated to male survivors/victims. Not enough but a move in the right direction.

    And, of course, MRAs had literally nothing to do with this positive development. And it remains steadfastly true that MRA theory pathologises victims of sex crimes”

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/500000-to-help-break-the-silence-for-male-rape-victims

    From the linked article:

    “Mr Craig said:
    “In the past there has not been enough support in the UK for male victims of sexual violence, such as myself.

    “But in the future I would like to see both the government and society begin talking more openly about boys and men as victims and see us trying to make a positive change to pulling down those barriers that stop boys and men speaking up. This funding will help to raise awareness of the issue and ensure that male victims are no longer ignored.

    “I’d like to tell all boys and men that are sitting in silence I have been there. I have been silent and it’s not a nice place to be. Yes it’s difficult, embarrassing and painful to speak out but once you start healing, you will be able to break free from the legacy. Get support lads, don’t suffer. You deserve to be able to heal.”

    Mr. Craig is an MRA from the look of this.

    “And it remains steadfastly true that MRA theory pathologises victims of sex crimes”

    This happens to be untrue. it is true of the manosphere but not of the MRM. The manopshere and the MRM are as opposed to each other as Phyllis Schafly and feminists.

    Typhonblue is certainly and MRA and this is her take on rape and rape victims:
    http://www.genderratic.com/p/4057/mens-rights-vs-feminist-rape-culture-explained-using-puzzle-pieces/

    What pathologization of rape victims do you find in that?

  172. 172
    123454321

    I don’t know about anyone else, but thinking back to all the men I have ever personnally known, I can’t recall a single one who fits the description sirtoot expresses so eloquently. Not a single one. That’s a lot of men you’re offending out there sirtoot!

  173. 173
    sirtooting .

    http://library.flawlesslogic.com/massrape.htm
    The war of Gendercide .. The misogynist revealed, in all his glory .. Not the war he wants to publicise, for fear it will reveal the true monster contained there in.

    This is the protection racket .. 123454321 .. Coverts ..Oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected. Make up your own mind, that’s fine.

    Mass murder, mass rape, mass imprisonment .. A universal male tribal trade mark .. The word Oppression is the truth, and the word Protection is the male propaganda they use to hide that truth ..

    A Deadly Preference For Male Offspring: The Killing Of Baby Girls In India And Pakistan
    http://www.ibtimes.com/deadly-preference-male-offspring-killing-baby-girls-India-pakistan-1406582

    Oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected. Make up your own mind, that’s fine.

    The only thing men ever protected were men’s own self interests .. They enslaved females under a so called protection racket .. Do as you are told, or we will kill you .., and we might kill you anyway .. It just depends on how we feel on the day ..

    Oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected, oppressed or protected. Make up your own mind, that’s fine.

  174. 174
    sirtooting .

    @ 12345

    Didn’t you tell us men should be honored for protecting women .. And women should bow down to men .. For this said protection .. But where is this protection you talk of?
    And didn’t you tell us women were ruining men’s lives, because women were refusing to kill their unborn children for the nazi’s .. And when the women refuse to kill their unborn children, the women get the message back from the Nazi’s .. Well, we ain’t paying for the fucking little inconveniences,we don’t care if you all fucking starve to death, we have more important things to spend our money on .. Us, our booze and our XBoxes ..

    Do males in the West try to coerce females to abort their children? Because the male regards them as nothing but a fucking financial inconvenience for the men?

    The war they don’t want mentioned .. The war on the female of the species being fought all over the world by the male ..

    http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.in/2012/07/brutal-rape-of-german-women-during-and.html.

  175. 175
    Lucy

    12345

    “I don’t know about anyone else, but thinking back to all the men I have ever personnally known, I can’t recall a single one who fits the description sirtoot expresses so eloquently. Not a single one. That’s a lot of men you’re offending out there sirtoot!”

    Which bit? You don’t think you’ve ever personally known a child molester? Yes you have. You might not have known you’ve known one, but you’ve known one. You personally know quite a rapists and wife beaters too. You definitely know a whole heap of chauvinists and sexists.

    You can’t tell who they are, they are often very friendly and popular. And they very often express very sensible opinions that you definitely agree with, and tell quite good jokes. And they are often married to very sensible women who agree with you both.

    The only certain way to tell is to shave their heads, turn out all the lights and see if they have a glow-in-the-dark 666 on their scalps.

  176. 176
    Lucy

    Schala

    “Using your kind of reasoning, we can then say the money flows from the males in the boardroom to their girlfriends, wives and children (including their female children). Ultimately, it flows back to women.

    And there, I win.”

    My kind of reasoning? You think the reasoning that the owners and directors of the several porn conglomerates making millions of dollars in profit are the ones making the most significant money from the porn trade rather than the workers is “my* reasoning? You think I invented that? Wow. I’m flattered.

    Do you have any evidence that most of men’s salaries and bonuses goes to their wives and girlfriends? I’ll save you the bother, because the evidence is that men spend more on themselves than they spend on women or than women spend on themselves.

    But I guess the gold-digger, bonbon eater is no worse a stereotype than the well paid porn star giving informed consent.

    And men say they’re immune to marketing and media.

    Question the message! Who do you think is scripting, producing and distributing what you see and hear?

  177. 177
    Lucy

    Ginkgo

    I find it suspicious that MRAs always forget to mention that the people domestically beating and raping men are not mostly women, they are mostly other men.

    And they never point out the discrepancy in the seriousness of the violence meted out by men and women, 90% of domestic violence that leads to hospitalisation or fatalities is perpetrated by men,

    The male DV figures are used entirely unjustly as a stick to beat feminists with, which gives their game away.

  178. 178
    Ginkgo

    Lucy,

    “Which bit? You don’t think you’ve ever personally known a child molester? Yes you have.”

    Any man who has attended elementary school almost certainly has known a child molester, and probably several. And the society is only very recently and very slwoly coming around to prosecuting them at all.

    “I find it suspicious that MRAs always forget to mention that the people domestically beating and raping men are not mostly women, they are mostly other men.”

    I don’t find it suspicious at all that you try to pass off these falsehoods, I find it confirms my suspicions about you and your deathgrip on your dogmas.

    Mary Koss’ own research at the CDC found as many men raped by women as women by raped using the standard definition of consent, although unsurprisingly she explicitly refused to apply the same term to both instances of the same act.

    As for DV, the evidence is quite clear. The relationships with the most violence involvle two women, in heterosexual raelationships women intiiate most physical violence (and basically own psychological violence) and the relationships with the least violence are gay male relationships. I feel only pity for my gynerast brothers.

  179. 179
    sheaf

    The only certain way to tell is to shave their heads, turn out all the lights and see if they have a glow-in-the-dark 666 on their scalps.

    I was going with the Hare checklist or brain scans I am learning something new about sociopathy every day.

  180. 180
    Ginkgo

    Article about a child molester teacher – see the section about teacher sex scandals and note the percentage by gender:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/malia-brooks-teacher-sex-student_n_3434447.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular#slide=1097122

  181. 181
    carnation

    @ Gingko

    You are totally and completely wrong, I’m afraid.

    Mr Craig, as far as I know, contributes to no MRA blogs. Since blogging represents the sum total of activism engaged in by MRAs, he is not an MRA. He *is* an activist, he is not an MRA. If Mr Craig is an MRA, then so is Ally Fogg, for fundraising for Survivors Manchester, and so am I, for donating to it.

    Your point falls apart at the slightest scrutiny.

    TyphonBlue is an MRA, and a contributor to AVfM. The same AVfM whose founder has said he would acquit a rapist he knew to be guilty and the same AVfM who has a link to an MRA (AngryHarry) who has claimed that 80% of all allegations of rape are false.

    The same AVfM that “jokes” about male rape:

    http://manboobz.com/2012/02/09/on-a-voice-for-men-rape-jokes-about-men-are-hilarious-so-long-as-theyre-about-some-dude-you-dont-like/

    The same AVfM who has a salaried MRA who laughing said he “didn’t give a fuck about rape victims”.

    Is that enough pathologisation for you?

    This very welcome and overdue move by the Government happened in spite of, not because of, MRAs. Activists like Mr Craig are nothing like MRAs.

  182. 182
    carnation

    @ Gingko

    “Mary Koss’ own research at the CDC found as many men raped by women as women by raped using the standard definition of consent, although unsurprisingly she explicitly refused to apply the same term to both instances of the same act.”

    Wrong again, unfortunately. That lurid MRA myth has been debunked:

    “It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.

    According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

    1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;

    2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

    None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.”

    http://manboobz.com/2013/10/29/cdc-mra-claims-that-40-of-rapists-are-women-are-based-on-bad-math-and-misuse-of-our-data/

  183. 183
    Ginkgo

    carnation, you cannot cite a satire site as a source and retian any credibility. Find something other than manboobz, please.

    And quoting the CDC’s own transparent ass-covering response to being criticized over their misreprentation of their own data won’t wash either.

    “TyphonBlue is an MRA, and a contributor to AVfM. ”

    “Is that enough pathologisation for you?”

    Typhonblue is a rape victim, which you would know if you had any regard for facts, so it’s unlikely that she woyuld be pathologizing herself or denying victimization. And by the way, the big diffenrence is that ehr rapist was a woman.

    You are disappearing up your own anus.

  184. 184
    Ginkgo

    “The same AVfM who has a salaried MRA who laughing said he “didn’t give a fuck about rape victims”.

    Is that enough pathologisation for you?”

    Two questions.

    How is indifference to a crime a form of pathologization?

    And can you please give the exact name of the “salaried MRA” who made that statement?

  185. 185
    carnation

    @ Gingko

    Manboobz isn’t satirical blog, it quotes MRAs. But if you require direct links, they are provided.

    MRAs have difficulty understanding what satire actually is. You’re not alone.

    So the CDC cover their own ass about others misrepresenting their statistics? Um, yeah… That makes sense.

    Paul Elam and John Hembling are archetypal MRAs. They are also in high profile positions. Within the tiny world that is the MRM, they are extremely influential. In a nutshell, the founder and editor of the most popular MRA blog’s words are more relevant than the link you provide (which I didn’t read, but I was aware of TyphonBlue’s history).

  186. 186
    carnation

    “How is indifference to a crime a form of pathologization?”

    Indifference to a specific crime is to be indifferent to the suffering of the victim because of a set of beliefs you have about that victim. It is pathological for society to say to male victims of abuse “I don’t care about”, isn’t it?

    “And can you please give the exact name of the “salaried MRA” who made that statement?”

    JtO. I am not sure if he still is drawing a wage from AVfM, but as far as I knew, and the last time I checked, he was paid for his work, detailed within a blog posting entitled “It’s On” – this is from memory, and I will happily withdraw this statement if you are privy to more up to date information.

  187. 187
    sirtooting .

    @ cartman .. you don’t mind me calling you cartman do you,? after all you come across as some loathesome cartoon figure

    “Indifference to a specific crime is to be indifferent to the suffering of the victim because of a set of beliefs you have about that victim. It is pathological for society to say to female victims of abuse “I don’t care about”, isn’t it?

    That identifies you then, doesn’t it .?

    The war you don’t want mentioned .. The war on the female of the species being fought all over the world by the male ..

    http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.in/2012/07/brutal-rape-of-german-women-during-and.html

    And this ..
    A Deadly Preference For Male Offspring: The Killing Of Baby Girls In India And Pakistan
    http://www.ibtimes.com/deadly-preference-male-offspring-killing-baby-girls-India-pakistan-1406582

    Killing Females because they aren’t born male .. that is Gendercide .. and your responses to it , is

    “Your nonsense,”
    The murder and rape of Millions of females worldwide committed by males, is for you, A nonsense .. and for you, is so unimportant, it is not worth mentioning, and deserves no recognition, because the murder of millions of females at the hands of males, for you .. is A NOTHING .. Not even worth a second of your time.

    You INSIDIOUS shallow, small minded little man of no importance.

    “Indifference to a specific crime is to be indifferent to the suffering of the victim because of a set of beliefs you have about that victim. It is pathological for society to say to female victims of abuse “I don’t care about you”, isn’t it?

    Yes that is correct .. and you managed to describe yourself to a T.
    Well done, for explaining it so succinctly ..

    A war against the Female of the species by the Male of the species and you don’t think it deserves a second of your time..
    That is your pathological indifference to the Female of the species and explains and reveals the depth men can sink to in their depravity ..
    “Women have no existence and no essence; they are not, they are nothing.
    Otto Weininger

    John Wesley (1703-91): “Wife: Be content to be insignificant. What loss would it be to God or man had you never been born.”

    And you said the Gendercide, murder and rape of millions of females at the hands of males .. was a nonsense,a nothing, dismissed and played down by you as totally insignificant..
    Misogyny will live as long as long as you live Cartman .. at least until then..
    As ususal, your personal attack on me, was not you attacking my argument .. and that was because you had absolutely nothing to attack it with ..

  188. 188
    carnation

    @ SirToot

    You are an MRA’s wet dream. You confirm to them their need to exist. Your nonsense, your bile, encourages them. They need you, and you need them. You are two sides of the same coin.

  189. 189
    sirtooting .

    @ Lucy .. No. 177

    What do you think the core of misogyny is, in the light of the gendercide of the female of the species?
    Where the male claims the female is not as valuable as the the male and so she must be murdered to be hopefully replaced by a male.

    And in the light of statements that MISOGYNISTS ENDLESSLY EXPRESS the FEMALES IS A NOTHING.

    If you can, please give us a short precise idea of what you believe this core is .. my understanding is, it is because the female is not born male and all the quotes I have recently included on here, lead exactly to that. The quotes all indicate, the female must be punished for not being born male and must never be allowed to forget that.

  190. 190
    sirtooting .

    @ Cartman

    As ususal, your personal attack on me, was not you attacking my argument .. and that was because you had absolutely nothing to attack it with .. it’s so sad, .. all you have left, all you can resort to, is to attack me ..

  191. 191
    Ginkgo

    carnation,
    ““How is indifference to a crime a form of pathologization?”

    Indifference to a specific crime is to be indifferent to the suffering of the victim because of a set of beliefs you have about that victim. It is pathological for society to say to male victims of abuse “I don’t care about”, isn’t it?”

    Okay, now I see how you are using the term. i thought you were saying they were calling rape victims pathologicval, and eblieve, me that happens with male victims. They get accused of all kinds of motivations for coming out. Buut that’s not what you were saying. Thanks.

    “And can you please give the exact name of the “salaried MRA” who made that statement?”

    JtO. I am not sure if he still is drawing a wage from AVfM, but as far as I knew, and the last time I checked, he was paid for his work, detailed within a blog posting entitled “It’s On” – this is from memory, and I will happily withdraw this statement if you are privy to more up to date information.”

    Okay. Doesn’t surprise me. Well, enough lynch mobs do and always have ginven enough of a fuck about rape victims to even that all out. so thank God for the organizations that actually help rape victims to move into the middle ground.

    “@ SirToot

    You are an MRA’s wet dream.”

    Nothing he says reflects on feminism at all. He is just a standard man-hating man. He thinks it makes him the One Good Man. He’s cut from the same cloth as Hugo Schwyzer. God help the women he thinks he’s protecting.

  192. 192
    sheaf

    carnation,

    You are an MRA’s wet dream. You confirm to them their need to exist.

    Nonsense. None of the persons who are mras or mra friendly on this blog seem to take sirtooting seriously.

  193. 193
    sirtooting .

    @ Sheaf
    Of course all Misogynists .. Will refuse to listen to details of what their misogyny means for others.
    They choose to Disengage and: See no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil
    Disengaging requires ignoring a lot of stuff. Not only does it require ignoring, it requires deliberate and willful ignorance.
    Kinda like sticking your fingers in your ears, shutting your eyes, and singing La la la at the top of your lungs to prevent any troublesome knowledge from registering.
    You all pretend to be deaf and dumb, in an effort to disengage
    The last resort coping mechanisms for dealing with the unpalatable truth and you are all complicit in your lie.

    Lalalah .. We don’t want to hear it ..Lalalah .. We don’t want to see it .. Lalalah .. We don’t want to discuss it ..

    What cowards you all are .. and you pretend you are all brave .. and you can’t find it within you to even deal with the truth .. misogynists hates females because they aren’t born male .. your whole culture is based on it, it is its foundation .. and you can’t look at at it and discuss it, like adults, instead you stick your fingers in your ears, shut your eyes, and sing la la la at the top of your lungs to prevent any troublesome knowledge from registering in your brains.. Disengaged and disconnected from the truth

    The mass murder, the mass rape, the mass enslavement of the female is the foundation of all male run totalitarian cultures..

    http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.in/2012/07/brutal-rape-of-german-women-during-and.html

    iT’S ABOUT TIME YOU ALL GREW UP AND FACED THE VILE TRUTH.

  194. 194
    sheaf

    Sirtooting

    Since this was addressed to me I guess I will respond: Yes, women like all demographics were victims of the second world war and its aftermath. This has nothing t do with misogyny, the topic of the blogpost or the topic at hand.

    People are here to discuss things. They are not here to go through your confusingly formatted, incoherent, man hating off topic rants.

    Ally,

    I think Sitooting is violating the hetpat first directive in posts containing the phrase: “The male”.
    His usage is quite simlar to saying “all males”.

    E.G.:

    A war against the Female of the species by the Male of the species and you don’t think it deserves a second of your time..

  195. 195
    sirtooting .

    It is all relevant .. because it is the core of all of it ..
    Abuse is not a team game .. well quite obviously it is when males claim females are their reward for acting in dramas of their own making, their wars and then they whole sale go on to rape females aged from 1 year to 80 years because they feel self entitled to smash females into the ground for a smug, warm cosy sadistic perverted feeling it gives them inside .. The spoils of war for males .. is the enslavement of females .. that is how the male treats the female, that’s how he regards her .. in wars .. females are unarmed .. in wars all across the world .. the male is dangerous to the female .. aged from 1 year to 80 years .. the male has no respect for the unarmed female .. he becomes a monster .. does he become a monster? .. or is he always a monster waiting to be unleashed? .. either way .. the male is a violent sadistic thug .. and there are no liberators .. there are only armies of rapists .. on the hunt for their prey .. and females are that prey .. The male declared war on the female and the war continues on a daily basis ..

  196. 196
    sirtooting .

    @ Ginko

    “I think Sitooting is violating the hetpat first directive in posts containing the phrase: “The male”.
    His usage is quite similar to saying “all males”.

    Yeah that must be like “A war against the Female” .. This usage is quite similar to saying “all females”. .. but of course it is quite difficult not to when you read the whole sentence .. which is .. A war against the Female of the species by the Male of the species and you don’t think it deserves a second of your time..

    I THINK THE WORD SPECIES GIVES IT AWAY .. OH ME .. OH MY .. I’m afraid you just can’t get round that, when you refer to the whole species ..
    I mean, all the quotes from misogynists i have pasted in for everyone to peruse .. say women are this and men are that .. you don’t complain about that do you .. that gets a free pass.
    Those misogynists didn’t distinguish between females, women or men

    The soldiers who mass rape females don’t care which females they rape, they rape them all, none are out of bounds .. Not 1 year olds to 80 years old .. It’s a shame you don’t put in as much effort to complain about these males who rape .. But you over look that, that is irrelevant when trying to stop that unpalatable bit of information from being revealed and repeated ..
    You are very selective about what you complain about, aren’t you? And the mass murder and rape of females at the hands of males isn’t ever going to be one of them .. And that is because you don’t think it deserves a second of your time..

  197. 197
    Adiabat

    Carnation (164): As usual you take something that should just be recognised as good news and twist it into your MRA obsession.

    Even then I don’t know how it’s possible for you to know that MRA’s “had literally nothing to do with it”. It’s not like The DoJ have stated their influences. Even if they had it’s still impossible to determine what influence MRA’s had as it’s not like organisations that help men are going to risk the political suicide of outright stating any MRA influences, especially with the endless smear campaigns and hatchet jobs feminists are constantly running against the MRM.

    We do know that the Department of Justice consulted with Mankind for their recent #breakthesilence campaign, which aimed to draw attention to male victims (https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/8868-help-break-the-silence). No doubt that campaign is linked to this announcement in some ways, if only as evidence that the DoJ is taking male victims more seriously and approaching such organisations for advice; advice that no doubt influenced this most recent announcement. We also know that Erin Pizzey and a couple of other patrons of Mankind are either MRA’s or have affiliations with them (http://www.mankind.org.uk/aboutus.html). Erin Pizzey is also an Editor of A Voice For Men.

    So this announcement by the government could just as easily be evidence that MRA’s, and AVFM, are contributing to a culture change that is resulting in more attention being paid to male victims. Personally I don’t think we have enough information to state either case with complete confidence.

    In addition, organisations like Survivors Manchester and AMIS, which are being praised, have been critical of feminist theory and criticised past feminist advocacy as hiding male victims: basically the same arguments as MRA’s have been making. Even if they don’t explicitly identify as MRA’s I fail to see the point of lauding one and demonising the other when they make the exact same arguments. Either MRA’s are right or their wrong, and the sudden praise that organisations like Survivors Manchester and AMIS have received from you indicates that your problem with MRA’s isn’t so much about their content, but their tone.

  198. 198
    Adiabat

    Carnation (182): Re: the CDC reply to MRA’s.

    According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

    What you’re linking to has already been answered and dealt with*. If MRA’s are simply careful with their phrasing and state that the paper shows that “40% of rape victims were raped by a woman” rather than “40% of rapists were women” then the CDC “debunking” becomes invalid.

    * One example is here http://permutationofninjas.org/post/74696003203

    P.S And please don’t use ManBoobz as a source. It’s a joke site that openly admits that they are just trolling. The fact that you take it seriously says more about you than it does about MRA’s.

  199. 199
    carnation

    @ Adiabat

    My problem with MRAs is that their theories, if ever taken seriously, would damage vulnerable men and women. We can assume that no Govt agency would have anything to do with AVfM because of the content of AVfM. Simple.

    Manboobz quotes directly from MRA blogs. How does quoting and then mocking MRA statements and theoriesnulify a website as a source? MRAs use the words and links are provided.

  200. 200
    sirtooting .

    @ Adiabat .. No. 198

    Hypothetically If in one year .. You have 10 men 4 of who say they were raped by a woman, then that equals 40% of the men raped by a woman in a year.? .. Yes

    Unfortunately that is not the calculation you are using to get your figures .. Because the real calculation you are using to achieve your figures, is a life time figure, it is not an annual figure, but a life time figure .. Which will be over a period of 70 years, not one year ..
    However the figure for women is an annual figure .. And if you want a better explanation of how you are distorting facts to suit your own purposes .. Here it is .. and btw .. facts do not require fiction to give balance.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/againstmensrights/comments/1lq3n3/cdc_responds_are_40_of_rapists_women/

  201. 201
    Schala

    Manboobz is like The Onion. I can find more credible information from wikipedia or TV tropes.

  202. 202
    sirtooting .

    @Schala,
    And yet manboobz virually only uses quotes from MRA Sites ..

    Here is more on the subject ..

  203. 203
    Schala

    And yet manboobz virually only uses quotes from MRA Sites ..

    And distorts them.

  204. 204
    sirtooting .

    ah, you mean like MRA’S distorting statistics on rape to claim “40% of rapists were women.

  205. 205
    Schala

    ah, you mean like MRA’S distorting statistics on rape to claim “40% of rapists were women.

    40% of rapes are committed by women. This is true. We just don’t know the % of rapists.

  206. 206
    sirtooting .

    @ Schala

    If women were like men regarding sex, then why were the 20,000 Web users that contacted a digital 10-year-old named “Sweetie,” with 1,000 of them offering ‘her’ money to perform sex acts on camera .. Entirely all men?

    The cdc report stated..
    Too few male victims reported two or more perpetrators to produce a reliable estimate.
    The estimates for male victims raped by other types of perpetrators were based upon numbers too small to calculate a reliable estimate and therefore are not reported.
    Too few men reported rape victimization in adulthood to examine rape victimization as a minor and subsequent rape victimization in adulthood.
    Too few men reported rape or other combinations of intimate partner violence to produce a reliable estimate.
    Too few men reported rape by an intimate partner to produce reliable prevalence estimates.
    The estimates for age at first completed rape for male victims in the other age groups were based upon numbers too small to calculate a reliable estimate and therefore are not reported.
    The estimates for the other racial/ethnic groups of men were based upon numbers too small to produce a reliable estimate and therefore are not reported.

    I have no doubt women do commit these crimes and I have no doubt the percentage that do are absolutely minimal. You are trying to say men rape women and women rape men and conflate the two and then claim there is nothing to choose between the two of them and both are as bad as each other .. So goal achieved and now don’t point the finger at men and criticise them because it is like the pot calling the kettle black

    You have a reason to try and incriminate women and inflate their involvement in these crimes, you want them too look as bad as men .. But look above .. So few men were abused by women, they barely even register on a graph
    Women rarely abuse men, for most women, it wouldn’t even cross their mind to abuse them .. It’s not their, it’s not in their make up .. Or in their character .. And most are horrified anyone would imagine they would.

    You can’t accept that .. You are looking for crimes that don’t on the whole exist .. You can turn somersaults all you like, trying to distort these statistics .. But when 20,000 men, look to abuse a child to satisfy their sexual urges and there is not one woman amongst them .. Then that is telling you exactly which gender is most likely to be a perverted abuser ..
    Men, I am afraid are sexual predators .. http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.in/2012/07/brutal-rape-of-german-women-during-and.html

    Men were raping children, and women and they wanted to and they did .. Where are the reports of women ‘s doing the same in all these war reports ..
    If women are the same as men .. It isn’t there, because it isn’t in most women’s nature .. Women aren’t men.
    I am sure you will find a few , there is always an exception to a rule .. but males raping is a cultural problem .. 20,000 males desperate to molest a child proves it .. and the fact that at any one time 750,000 child molesters are on line .. and the majority, if not almost all of them will be male .. is just to depressing for words .. don’t you think?

  207. 207
    Adiabat

    Carnation (199):

    My problem with MRAs is that their theories, if ever taken seriously, would damage vulnerable men and women.

    Which theories? As I pointed out above some of their “theories” (if you can call them that) are shared by organisations you are praising, and have donated money to.

    We can assume that no Govt agency would have anything to do with AVfM because of the content of AVfM. Simple.

    No, not simple. I’ve already shown that a Govt agency is working with an organisation which has an editor of AVFM as a patron. So yes, they are already having something to do with AVFM; though to what extent is unknown.

    Manboobz quotes directly from MRA blogs. How does quoting and then mocking MRA statements and theoriesnulify a website as a source?

    When the people being quoted are being misrepresented, and when the misrepresentation is common and standard for the site. The most notable example for me was the Paul Elam quote which manboobz (completely by accident I’m sure /s) just happened to cut off just before he said “Am I being serious? No”. The fact that this was so blatant, and obviously deliberate, significantly damages Manboobz credibility.

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