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Nov 26 2013

Instant reflections on the Natsal survey on sexual coercion

Today saw the publication of the new edition of the Lancet journal, which is largely devoted to Britain’s largest survey of sexual attitudes and lifestyle: Natsal

Much media attention was devoted to the findings on rape and sexual coercion, or as the researchers call it, non-volitional sex.

To the best of my knowledge, it is the first time a UK-based survey of this size has asked men and women the exact same question in the same context about their experience of non-consensual sex. After looking at many studies from around the world which have found surprisingly high response rates among men when questioned on the issue, it is worth noting that this survey is more in line with expectations. Here’s the full description from the methodology:

“We asked women and men about their experience of sex against their will since the age of 13 years, in the computer-assisted self-interview section of the questionnaire, in which heterosexual sex was defined as including “vaginal, oral, or anal” and same-sex sex as including “oral (or, for men only, anal) sex or any other contact involving the genital area”. Only participants who reported having had heterosexual intercourse or sex with someone of the same sex since 13 years of age were routed to these questions. The first question was worded “Has anyone tried to make you have sex with them, against your will?” Participants who responded “yes” were defined as having experienced “attempted non-volitional sex”, and were then asked “Has anyone actually made you have sex with them, against your will?”, which was used to define the experience of “completed non-volitional sex”.

 

the results were that 9.8% of women and 1.4% of men reported having been the victim of non-volitional sex. For easy comparison, that would mean that for every eight rapes, seven were of women and one was of a man.

Some points to note. First, the  wording of the question used on this survey is stronger than in many of the studies I wrote about in the previous blog. There is little doubt that it describes rape, rather than what we might call ‘reluctant sex’ or gentle coercion. This might explain why the gender difference is wider than in some other surveys.

On the other hand, I continue to wonder if many male victims of female sexual aggression simply don’t think their experience counts when they are asked about this. I do wonder whether the response rate might have been a bit higher if the question had specified “has anyone, male or female, actually made you have sex with them, against your will?”

I’d be interested in your thoughts.

The other detail in the report which caught my attention, which I haven’t seen mentioned elsewhere, was that among both male and female victims the median age for the last incidence (of non-volitional sex) was at a very early age – 16 for men, 18 for women. For men, there was no difference in this between different age cohorts, but for women, the youngest group (16-24) and the oldest group (65-74) had significantly lower incidence rates than other groups.

This would, I think, appear to shadow an effect that we have noted in the US before, but I’ve yet to see confirmed in the UK – which is that there was a large rise in the rate of rape of young women over the  1970s to the 1990s which has since gone into decline, which would, of course, be welcome news. It also highlights why estimates of lifetime risks of a crime like rape – the incidence of which is not evenly spread over a lifetime  - are fundamentally flawed. Claims like “1 in 5 women will be raped” “1 in 10 women will be raped” or any such calculation are fundamentally flawed. (Same goes for men, of course.)

I’m still going through other sections of the report, and shall update you if I find anything interesting.

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  1. 1
    Schlumbumbi

    On the other hand, I continue to wonder if many male victims of female sexual aggression simply don’t think their experience counts when they are asked about this

    This. Before that whole rape hysteria befell FTB, I never thought about my own life in detail.

    Upon closer inspection of my own memories, I remembered several things about my own life, among them things like false allegations of sexual misconduct against me and several of my male friends or things like two unambigious cases of sexual misconduct against myself, by one woman and one man (on entirely seperate occasions though).

    Had things gone only slightly different back, meaning to my disadvantage, I surely wouldn’t have been able to wipe these things from my memories for so long.

  2. 2
    Lucy

    “Has anyone actually made you have sex with them, against your will?”
    Vs
    “has anyone, male or female, actually made you have sex with them, against your will?”

    My thoughts:
    1) any increase effect will apply to the female victim figure too.
    2) the second version raises the issue of transgender perpetrators.
    3) neither version of the question will capture victims of a third party who has been coerced or who is incapable of giving informed consent.
    4) neither version of the question will capture victims of sexual assault with an object.

  3. 3
    Lucy

    Schlumbumbi

    “Upon closer inspection of my own memories, I remembered several things about my own life”

    It may surprise you to learn that we all have to do that, it’s not a man thing. The Lancet report makes the point clearly that the majority of victims don’t regard what happened to them as rape, hence the wording of the question.

  4. 4
    Schlumbumbi

    Of course it’s not a “man thing” to remember your earlier life.

    But what might well be typical for men is to just shrug things off and forget about them, simply because after all, noone gives a damn about what happened to us, so why would we ?

  5. 5
    Lucy

    “But what might well be typical for men is to just shrug things off and forget about them, simply because after all, noone gives a damn about what happened to us, so why would we ?”

    It may be, yes. But equally, seeing as this reliable data shows 7 times as many women than men are getting raped and shrugging it off, maybe not.

  6. 6
    Lucy

    Re. Men being stoic in the face of institutional indifference and women being self-entitled whiners:

    ‘The level of sexual violence in gang-afflicted neighbourhoods is comparable to that seen in war zones, according to the author of a new report.

    As one young woman put it: “It’s normal … It’s wrong, but you get used to it … Welcome to our generation.”

    One 16-year-old youth described an occasion when seven young men had coerced a woman. “Not rape, it’s just that that girl had wanted it to happen, or not necessarily wanted it to happen but she basically asked for it.” Another a 17 year old man said: “If she looks like a ho then the boys will treat her like a ho… and she has no choice but to accept how they’re treating her.”

    Authorities totally abrogating their responsibilities.’

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/26/gangs-sexual-violence-warzones?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

    ‘In Britain one woman in 10 and one man in 70 have experienced sex against their will since they turned 13. More than half of them have never told a soul.’

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/26/victims-sexual-coercion-blind-to-crime

  7. 7
    Mr Supertypo

    Its interesting finding out that sexual abuse is not a exclusive female (as victim) phenomena. Because we learn that men can be victims and women perpetrators, and this contrast with the cultural narrative that sexual violence is one sided (senso unico) male vs female. Instead we see that S.A is actually a large fresco made out of gray tones witch include male vs male, male vs female, female vs female and the controversial female vs male. That means (what most of us already knew) the cultural narrative is inaccurate. So the first logical step should be to correct the social legend into a more accurate one that everybody can be victim and perpetrators at the same time. In other words the identikit of a victim no longer is limited by a particular gender or phenotype but it should include a more varied and nuanced model than the standard we still have at the moment. And this would be a major blow to the patriarchal culture. But also against a sub-culture who trive in the female = victim mindset.

    This will be confusing at best, but in the end we can only gain a more accurate understanding and as a consequence more effective solutions. :-)

  8. 8
    Ginkgo

    “On the other hand, I continue to wonder if many male victims of female sexual aggression simply don’t think their experience counts when they are asked about this.”

    Culture-based gender assumptions and norms probably explain this. Here’s a reverse example that shows how much cultural assumptions can influence a person’s appraisal of their experiences.

    Five or six years ago there was an influx of young Korea women being smuggled into the US from Vacnouver BC to work as sex workers. What is pertinent here is the method of recruitment. These women were invited into gambling activities, cheated into a debt load such that they could not discharge it without accepting their creditors’ offers of employment in the US in vaguely clerical work (which is a stretch unless your English is failry good, but anyway). Somewhere along the way, usually in Vancouver, they were told there was no clerical work and anyway they could pay their debt off faster with sex work – usually bar hostess work in Vegas, but often massage parlor/prostitution activity.

    Here’s the thing – they almost always said they had accepted freely, although by our standards – unfamiliar country and laws, lack of language proficiency – these women had no choice and were being offered no choice at all. But by their standards it was a free choice, or maybe choice simply didn’t matter – they had the debt, they had to diischarge it and nothing else mattered; someone had offered them a way to do it and that’s what mattered.

    If you have a culture that centers actions and discounts motive and mens rea, this is the kind of interpetation you put on this kind of experience.

    If you have a culture where hyperagency is part of a person’s gender norm and you ask him if he was coerced – stripped of agency – he is going to suckup the coercion rather than degender himself. It takes a fundamental re-ordering of one’s self-image to see onelself as a victim , adn most people will deny the victimhood instead.

  9. 9
    John Morales

    I note that rape is only a sub-category of the category of sexual assault.

  10. 10
    sirtooting .

    “But by their standards it was a free choice, or maybe choice simply didn’t matter – they had the debt, they had to discharge it and nothing else mattered”..Really?

    So what happened to these women if they didn’t choose freely to discharge their debt in this way and what WAS THEIR ALTERNATIVE?

  11. 11
    John Morales

    [meta]

    sirtooting @10, I think you’ve entirely missed Ginkgo’s very point.

    (To respond to your rhetorical question, Ginkgo is stating that they were not aware that they had any alternative due to their acculturation, not that there wasn’t one)

    In passing, I note you routinely abuse emphasis, thus blunting its effectiveness.

  12. 12
    Unphysicalism

    Males victims of “rape” are either physically inferior (and therefore deserve it) or are simply homosexuals unable to admit to their homosexuality and use bogus claims of rape to cover it up. The only real victims of rape are all female. Male “rape” is not as useful as male on male violence because it doesn’t have the bonus effect of killing off undesirable males with inferior genetics. Thus, it shouldn’t be actively promoted, unlike male on male violence. However, there is also no need to stop it, and it can serve as a good indicator of which males should be targeted for violence next, because very few male “rape victims” have good genetic material. This includes “bottom” homosexuals, as they’ve demonstrated themselves to be weak and submissive.

  13. 13
    John Morales

    [meta]

    Unphysicalism @12, care to clarify whether you’re attempting sarcasm (i.e. you’re ‘Poeing’) or whether you genuinely believe that what you expressed is veridical?

  14. 14
    sirtooting .

    So what happened to these women if they didn’t choose freely to discharge their debt in this way and what WAS THEIR ALTERNATIVE?

  15. 15
    sirtooting .

    If we believe your mate, we will believe anything..
    Women become trapped in sex trade after being lured to city with false promises. Imagine being beaten, forced into sex work, and told you’ll be killed if you try to escape. The constant threat of violence means you’re too scared to go to the authorities, but even if you did, there’s little chance of retribution for your attacker. This might sound like something that would happen in a third-world country, or during some bygone era, but it’s happening now in Vancouver, and is a reality for many victims of human trafficking.

    Trafficking is often confused with being smuggled into the country, but trafficking is unique because it requires three steps — recruitment, movement and exploitation. Women often believe they are being smuggled into the country — they want to sneak into Canada, with dreams of a better life here. But soon they learn they have been sold and must now work as slaves.

    DOMESTIC TRAFFICKING – Women are first befriended by a recruiter who often becomes their boyfriend and then persuades them move to a new city. The traffickers will use threats; they may beat or gang rape the person or threaten to kill their family — anything to keep them there. “They wine them and dine them … All of a sudden they are moving from one city to another city. Once they get there they are sold and forced to live on the street.”

    Of course your friend tries to sanitize everything .. Completely omits the violence being reigned down on these women by violent thugs and rapists..
    Women who are trapped, caged and sold.. by who? MEN.. For who? MEN..

    We are to imagine it is all mutual agreements .. and nothing to be concerned about .. white wash it, dismiss it, water it down, it’s nothing important, it is only women being beaten, sold and raped by men ..

    What’s that coming over the hill, is it a monster.. is it a monster

  16. 16
    John Morales

    sirtooting @14, your shouting irritates my ears.

    In response to your question, their alternative (unpalatable though it might have seemed to them, given that it entailed a possibility of involuntary deportation) was to approach the authorities and inform them that they were being coerced into prostitution for the purposes of discharging a dubious debt.

  17. 17
    sirtooting .

    Sex trafficking: a national disgrace

    “Invisible Chains: Canada’s Underground World of Human Trafficking” by Benjamin Perrin

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/books/invisible-chains-canadas-underground-world-of-human-trafficking-by-benjamin-perrin/article1758620/

    The stories he documents are heartbreaking: a 14-year-old from Ontario sold for sex on Craigslist; young women from the war-torn Congo and Colombia trafficked to brothels and massage parlours in Canada; a 21-year-old from Alberta who went missing in Las Vegas in 2006.

    Perrin cites a report from Canada’s Criminal Intelligence Service that estimates domestic sex traffickers earn an average of $280,000 annually from every victim under their control.

    From April, 2007, to April, 2009, only about 30 people were charged with human trafficking in Canada; just five have been convicted to date. And their sentences amount to what Perrin aptly calls “a joke.” One man from Ontario who earned at least $400,000 from marketing one girl for sex got three years – and that was harsh by Canadian standards. After his pretrial custody time was factored in, a Montreal man in 2008 got a week in jail, Another trafficker who claimed he had turned his life around by writing poems in jail while awaiting trial was sentenced to just one day.

    What’s that coming over the hill, is it a monster.. is it a monster?

    You are all fraudsters.
    You wouldn’t tell the truth if it got up and slapped you in the face?

  18. 18
    Mr Supertypo

    Unphysical = ” Males victims of “rape” are either physically inferior (and therefore deserve it) or are simply homosexuals unable to admit to their homosexuality and use bogus claims of rape to cover it up. The only real victims of rape are all female. ”

    Following your line of reasoning male on female rape its just the logical next step of the “superior” alpha male management of fornicable chattels. Therefore rape its justified by evolution.

    But fortunately its not the way it works for humans….

  19. 19
    John Morales

    [meta]

    sirtooting, I remind you that this post relates to “Britain’s largest survey of sexual attitudes and lifestyle” and the inferences to be drawn from its results.

    (Surely, if you want to belabour the problems of sex trafficking, it would be more topical to refer to the UK)

  20. 20
    sirtooting .

    It was your friend who mentioned trafficking in Canada not I, But where in the world isn’t there men beating raping and trafficking women..
    This is the world, we all inhabit and where men beat, sell and rape women.. and very few men protest against that..

    Yeah men will tell you, it’s nothing, don’t concern yourself, it’s nothing important.. can you please stop talking about it .. we don’t want to discuss these atrocities, we want to sweep them all under the carpet, these are our male privileges you are talking about and we can’t have them criticised .. so shhh.. stop mentioning them ..

    You are all fraudsters.
    You wouldn’t tell the truth if it got up and slapped you in the face?

  21. 21
    sirtooting .

    “Britain’s largest survey of sexual attitudes and lifestyle” and the inferences to be drawn from its results.

    Is rape is prevalent, women are in the majority the victims of the crime & men by the majority are the perpetrators of it..

    You can go to any country in the world, and these same statistics will be repeated, over and over again..

  22. 22
    John Morales

    sirtooting @20, I can’t deny that sex trafficking counts as vicarious rape — from the victim’s point of view, it may even be worse.

    But be aware it’s not that those of us who care don’t want to discuss it (though what’s to discuss is what may ameliorate the situation, not whether it exists!), but that the topic at hand should be the survey to which Ally here refers.

    [meta]

    Also, please don’t assign friendship on such an unwarranted basis; it’s quite possible for someone to agree with (and endorse) someone’s contentions though they may not be friendly to the person (indeed, even though they may find the other detestable). In this specific case, I was merely noting that you have clearly misunderstood Ginkgo’s point.

  23. 23
    sirtooting .

    I never misunderstood him, i quite clearly understood he was lying through his teeth..

    The thugs and rapists smash women into the ground, and their dreams are turned into eternal nightmares, by monsters who call themselves men.

  24. 24
    John Morales

    [totally OT + meta]

    sirtooting, what makes you apply the male pronoun to Ginkgo?

  25. 25
    Lucy

    Ginkgo

    ‘“On the other hand, I continue to wonder if many male victims of female sexual aggression simply don’t think their experience counts when they are asked about this.”

    Culture-based gender assumptions and norms probably explain this. ‘

    Explain what? A speculated scenario doesn’t require an explanation, it requires some evidence.

  26. 26
    Tamen

    I have to commend that both CSEW and NATSAL give access to the complete questionnaires – in contrast to CDC for example.

    I have given the Lancet paper a quick read-through as well as skimming through the relevant sections of the questionnaire scripts.

    The first thing that springs to mind is that respondents who were sexually abused below the age of 13 and who haven’t had non-consensual sex since the age of 13 isn’t included in this survey.

    The second thing, although I am not sure how much of an effect it has since due to the sexual experience question, is that they use having had heterosexual intercourse as on of the requirements for being routed into the self-completion questions. It just struck me as weird this focus on heterosexual intercourse rather than just intercourse. Would this affect the number of homosexual respondents being routed to the self-completion questions where they ask about non-consensual sex?

    Thirdly, this reveals every 8th rape victim is a man as Ally stated. Lower than the NISVS 2010 (every 5th) yes, but the NISVS 2010 didn’t exclude victimization happening when the respondent was younger than 13 year old. Also of significance is that the NISVS 2010 Report included attempts in it’s “rape” and “made to penetrate” categories. The ratio between women and men for attempted non-volitional sex was about (4.7%/19.4%) ~0.25 making every 5th victim of attempted non-consensual sex a man.

    Ally in OP:

    On the other hand, I continue to wonder if many male victims of female sexual aggression simply don’t think their experience counts when they are asked about this. I do wonder whether the response rate might have been a bit higher if the question had specified “has anyone, male or female, actually made you have sex with them, against your will?”

    That is a good question. I think it might.

    To quote you (Ally) from the post about female sexual aggression recounting a personal experience:

    She followed me into the loo, forced me up against the basin, pushed her tongue into my mouth and her hand into my jeans. I had to summon up quite a lot of physical strength to escape. This may sound strange, but my understanding of the incident, then and now, was not that I had narrowly escaped being raped by her, but that she had narrowly escaped being raped by me. She was in no state to be making such a choice. When her hand grasped my cock it reacted and for a moment I considered letting her have her wish.

    Would you, then or now, answer in the affirmative to the question:
    Since the age of 13, has anyone tried to make you have sex with them, against your will?

    If you would’ve answered no (as is hinted by the bolded sentence where you state that you considered that she escaped you rather than you escaping her) would the wording:
    Since the age of 13, has anyone, female or male, tried to make you have sex with them, against your will?
    have made you answer differently?

  27. 27
    Lucy

    So, according to the report.

    60% of women and 70% of men never tell anyone.
    88% of women and 92% of men do not report it the police.

    Of men who have had sex with men, the figure for having sex against their will, was the same as for women, 1 in 10.

  28. 28
    summerblues

    The only thing that comes to mind for me is peer pressure/culture norms. “Everybody does it, I don’t want to feel left out or teased”…giving in in order to fit in. Hetero relations only comes to mind. Homosexuality was not openly discussed or acknowledged.

  29. 29
    sirtooting .

    @ Mr Morales ~ No.24
    “On Fairy-Stories”, choosing instead the paradigm of secondary belief based on inner consistency of reality. Tolkien says that, in order for the narrative to work, the reader must believe that what he reads is true within the secondary reality of the fictional world.
    By focusing on creating an internally consistent fictional world, the author makes secondary belief possible.

    Suspension of disbelief is only necessary when the work has failed to create secondary belief.
    From that point the spell is broken, and the reader ceases to be immersed in the story and must make a conscious effort to suspend disbelief.

    I never misunderstood him, I quite clearly understood he was lying through his teeth.. And I could not for the life of me, suspend my disbelief for one single second, to accommodate a liar and allow him space to spread his propaganda of misinformation.

    Your friends Fairy stories are what you call OT.
    Reality is the hideous truth, and there are many who choose to suspend their disbelief of reality, because they can’t face it or accept it as the truth because it reveals them for the monsters that they truly are.

    Your friend thinks he can peddle lies to obscure the truth, well let him think again.

  30. 30
    sirtooting .

    @ Summerblues.
    Homosexuals are the same as heterosexuals, human beings and the same peer pressure is there to make them conform.

    We are being bombarded with an array of fairy stories to obscure the truth.
    We are being told endlessly in these fairy stories women are liars and they aren’t raped, but crying rape out of remorse, and we are to believe by this, that women’s experience of rape is exactly the same as the rapists and women only make these allegations of rape, out of malice towards men.

    These fairy stories, are blatant lies to obscure the reality of the truth and it all becomes apparent when those who promote their fairy stories as a reality, also tell us in the same breathe, men are raped.

    How can then, these same people claim men are raped, we ask?
    When they bombard us with their ideas, which they claim are true, & they tell us crying rape occurs only out of remorse & malice.

    Within the boundaries of their own conjured fake reality, the scenario of rape cannot exist, for anyone.

    In their fairy story world, they promote as a reality, rape cannot exist, it is not possible to be raped, because anyone who claims they are, are immediately labelled liars.

    The concept therefore that someone can believe they have been sexually abused, through their own experience is denied a reality and they must conform and disbelieve in their own reality, to accommodate liars.

    The Emperor has no clothes on..

  31. 31
    Gjenganger

    Could we have a quota for boldface type, so that you get excluded from the thread once yours is used up?

  32. 32
    mildlymagnificent

    Could we have a quota for boldface type, so that you get excluded from the thread once yours is used up?

    QFT …

    … doesn’t really work for this particular quote, but I heartily endorse it.

  33. 33
    sirtooting .

    What’s it called ? Freethoughts blog” .. Except when your thoughts clashes with theirs?

  34. 34
    Gjenganger

    @sirtooting 33
    No comments on your thoughts. But the continuous use of boldface is tiresome. It is possible to express strong opinions without using the ‘<strong' tag.

  35. 35
    sirtooting .

    Things are not always as first they appear.
    Quite often I only wish for a particular line to be highlighted in bold face, but unfortunately for some reason , the whole paragraph is being highlighted, which was not my intentions.

    I set the parameters for this function, and the parameters are overridden.. Why or how?. Who knows..?
    Are there any of the other functions you particularly dislike or am I free to use those as I please.?

  36. 36
    Ginkgo

    sirtooting @ 10 – “But by their standards it was a free choice, or maybe choice simply didn’t matter – they had the debt, they had to discharge it and nothing else mattered”..Really?
    So what happened to these women if they didn’t choose freely to discharge their debt in this way and what WAS THEIR ALTERNATIVE?”

    “So what happened to these women if they didn’t choose freely to discharge their debt in this way and what WAS THEIR ALTERNATIVE?”

    I think I made that pretty clear when I detailed how coercive their situation was, in a strange land and language. Of course they had no real choice by our standards. I made that quite clear.

    “But by their standards it was a free choice, or maybe choice simply didn’t matter – they had the debt, they had to discharge it and nothing else mattered”..Really?”

    Way to completely miss the point, whitewoman. The point was that cultural values around free will and agency shape these judgements, and not everyone shares your cultural values or asumptions, whitewoman. You might try coming out of your monocultural bubble for some air sometime.

    When these women were intercepeted and questioned, they would say they had freely chosen to go into sex work. That’s what they would say, because they didn’t have the advantage of the assumptions of your obviously morally superior culture, whitewoman. So yeah, “Really” – they really did see it that way. That’s if you are willing to believe them. But you of course probably know better than they did.

  37. 37
    Ginkgo

    sirtooting @ 30- “We are being told endlessly in these fairy stories women are liars and they aren’t raped, but crying rape out of remorse, and……..
    These fairy stories, are blatant lies to obscure the reality of the truth and it all becomes apparent when those who promote their fairy stories as a reality,”

    Oh really, sirtooting. As it happens alabama has finally pardoned the last of the Scottsboro Boys who were sentenced to DEATH for supposedly raping two white women who concoted the story to cover behavior they would have been condemned for. And these innocent men were far from any kind of anomaly.

    Surely there must be some white feminists somewhere who are not racist filth, who do not immediately revert to racist stereotypes and racist blindness to the oppression they inflict. Surely they must exist somewhere.

  38. 38
    Ginkgo

    And it will surprise not all if you are completely unaware of the Scottsboro Boys, or if you come on with a bunch of denialism and rationalizations and pervarications.

  39. 39
    sirtooting .

    You are relying on a straw man to clam an exception is the rule, you are falling over yourself to promote that idea as a reality.
    Why are you doing that?

    The July 2003 issue of the American Journal of Public Health published a massive study of spousal homicide. It was conducted by 18 experts in the medical field. The study found “Femicide, the homicide of women, is the leading cause of death in the United States among young African American women aged 15 to 45 yrs.” Most women are murdered by a male partner.

    A previous issue of the journal published a study showing blacks males are even 33% more likely to kill their spouse if she is white instead of black.

    According to the study, white females married to black males are 12.4 times more likely to be murdered by their husbands than white females married to white males. The same study shows that white men married to black women are 21.4 times more likely to be murdered by their wife than white men married to white women. The study shows that white women married to black men have the single highest risk of death by femicide of any married women in the US.

    And at the same time, locally in my town a woman was sexually assaulted by a man she’d been socializing with at a bar. He got her alone just outside and assaulted her. The comment thread on the article is filled with victim-blaming — “What did she expect, hanging out with someone she barely knew?”

    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If women assume some men might be a rapist, women are psychotic man-haters. If women let down their guard down around the wrong person and get raped, they are stupid women who were asking for it.
    Funny how no matter what the scenario, it’s always the woman who is wrong to these women hating assholes.

  40. 40
    Ginkgo

    “You are relying on a straw man to clam an exception is the rule, you are falling over yourself to promote that idea as a reality.
    Why are you doing that?”

    An exception? Lynching and judicvial lynching of black men over false claims of rape by white women is an exception? It was no exception, it was the rukle, and the rule istill in effect, if you bother to look at sentencing statistics.

    “Why are you doing that?”

    Ask yourself first why you are peddling racist lies.

  41. 41
    sirtooting .

    From the report Alley is highlighting..
    Participants who responded “yes” were defined as having experienced “attempted non-volitional sex”, and were then asked “Has anyone actually made you have sex with them, against your will?”, which was used to define the experience of “completed non-volitional sex”

    The results were that 9.8% of women and 1.4% of men reported having been the victim of non-volitional sex. For easy comparison, that would mean that for every eight rapes, seven were of women and one was of a man.
    Some points to note. First, the wording of the question used on this survey is stronger than in many of the studies I wrote about in the previous blog. There is little doubt that it describes rape.

    It appears in the past women were more believed, when, those they accused were black, but that only occurs in a racist country, when the black person is hated just that little bit more than the white woman & the punishments are carried out by white men to ensure everyone is aware who it is who holds the power.

    This power is only sustainable by the use of violence, and when you take away that chance to use violence from these men and make it a criminal offense, then these men look at each other and ask, well what shall we do now?

  42. 42
    Schlumbumbi

    @sirtooting #30

    We are being told endlessly in these fairy stories women are liars and they aren’t raped

    These “fairy tales” are real because lots of us know from personal experience that they’re real.
    The reasons why many people think they’re fairy tales, are threefold.

    (1) By the nature of the matter, it is impossible to gather objective evidence for what did not happen.

    (2) Even if it’s theoretically possible to gather circumstantial evidence to disprove an accusation, our ability to do so is strictly limited by the intelligence of the perpetrator and how (s)he has constructed the details of the accusation. Only the dumbest of the really dumb have their day in court.

    (3) Since there is no reliable objective measurement of false allegations, every single instance will be marked as “anecdotal evidence”, regardless of the number of incidents in total.

    What makes this crime so incomprehensible to most victims, resulting in utterances like “bitches be crazy”, is the psychology behind it. It can be anything, ranging from ice cold calculation, over remote pressure, to most severe disturbances in the cognitive processing of a person. The victim might or might not have the slightest clue about these circumstances but even if he does, it’s mostly impossible to prove. “Bitches be crazy” is a truly cynical strawman to attack.

    #41

    This power is only sustainable by the use of violence, and when you take away that chance to use violence from these men and make it a criminal offense, then these men look at each other and ask, well what shall we do now?

    Nope. Again – paper doesn’t blush. The only thing you will achieve is an eventual increase in criminal statistics and a lot more men going to prison. Then again, the US already has the highest prison population in the world. Where do you want to go from there ? And when will you realise that locking people away doesn’t actually solve any problems and doesn’t prevent crimes of any kind from happening?

  43. 43
    lelapaletute

    @Gingko

    Surely there must be some white feminists somewhere who are not racist filth, who do not immediately revert to racist stereotypes and racist blindness to the oppression they inflict. Surely they must exist somewhere.

    On behalf of my racial/poltical nexus, HEY. Where’s that HetPat First Directive when you need it, eh?

    I really don’t think you need to let the clearly bonkers drivel of Sirtooting provoke you into making such unpleasant, unwonted and unhelpful broadsides. Generally speaking you’re better than that.

  44. 44
    TMK

    Interesting.

    I havent read the survey, and i have no hypothesis about the difference. Keep in mind, though, that the difference, as already sort of pointed out by Tamen, is not that big – every 5th vs. every 8th is potentailly explainable by differences in survey methodology.

  45. 45
    sirtooting .

    This reminds me of an experiment a university did a while ago on it’s students, where they asked students, to take part in a blind date test. So they set up students with each other on blind dates and asked them to give details of what their thoughts were whilst sitting with their blind date.
    They told the students to be honest and they could complete their questionnaire anonymously. The young women wrote things like, I though he was attractive, I thought he was unattractive etc .. but the young men, had a theme, virtually all had a similar thought, that ran through their minds when answering the questionnaires, and what was it? .. Wow, low & behold it was, .. I wonder if I can persuade her to suck my cock.
    The bastards be crazy, and they only own one thought between them all, and they believe that thought is secret, they even believe their mothers aren’t aware of what they think..

  46. 46
    sheaf

    sirtootig (45)

    I think it is unlikely that what you describe was the outcome of the experiment. I am a young heterosexual man, and I dont think this thought, like……. ever

  47. 47
    sirtooting .

    hahaha

  48. 48
    sirtooting .

    You are relying on a straw man to clam an exception is the rule, you are falling over yourself to promote that idea as a reality, and yesterday i heard on the news 10 year old boys are coercing young girls for sex.
    And this ..
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444040/Police-solve-crimes-by-wiping-one-in-four-rapes-from-records

    I don’t believe you and your buddies, you have one thought between you all.. and it is not a secret.. and never has been..

  49. 49
    JT

    but the young men, had a theme, virtually all had a similar thought, that ran through their minds when answering the questionnaires, and what was it? .. Wow, low & behold it was, .. I wonder if I can persuade her to suck my cock.(Toot, Toot)

    Im wondering, did you have the same thought? Come on, be honest. lol. ;)

  50. 50
    sirtooting .

    I am the exception, rather than the rule.

    A charity ensnared hundreds of British paedophiles using a computer-generated image of a Filipino child as bait.
    The 110 UK-based sexual predators were exposed in the online sting operation which saw tens of thousands of men worldwide contact the virtual ten-year-old girl named Sweetie via video chat rooms.
    The accused Britons were among 1000 men caught trying to pay the fake child to take off her clothes and perform sex acts online, whose details have now been passed to Interpol.
    Paedophiles from 71 countries were unmasked in the two-and-a-half month undercover operation run by Dutch children’s charity, Terre des Hommes, from a warehouse in Amsterdam.
    The group, who launched the project last Spring, were quickly approached by more than 20,000 men from across the globe.

    Hans Guyt, the Terre des Hommes special projects director told The Globe and Mail: “The moment we got online, we were swamped, like an avalanche.”
    He added: “These people think they are invisible.
    These people are all men..

  51. 51
    sirtooting .

    Why do ‘creepy white guys’ only want to date Asian girls?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/online-dating/10467315/Online-dating-Asian-girls-Why-do-creepy-white-
    guys-only-want-to-date-them.html

    Data from the Facebook dating app, Are You Interested, has revealed strong and shocking trends in racial preferences of people using online dating.
    Among men, all races preferred a race different than their own. Hurrah for open mindedness, you might think? Think again – more like open season for racial objectification. Men across the board all preferred Asian women, apart from Asian men, who preferred Latinas.

    Groan. Cue a million stereotypes about how some groups of women are magically and uniformly “gentle” and “feminine”. Want to see this in action? Go to Google, and start typing in “[race] women are…” and see what the autocomplete suggests as the most popular way of completing this statement. You get these gems:
    ‘White women are easy’
    ‘Black women are repulsive’
    ‘Asian women are gold diggers’
    ‘Latin women are loyal’

  52. 52
    sirtooting .

    Even the statistics Mr Fogg mentions are not believed, and they say they are not true, because to admit they were, would be admitting women are telling the truth.

    http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2013-11-how-we-teach-our-kids-that-women-are-liars

  53. 53
    TMK

    @JT 49

    No, SirT thought was >how i can spam the questionnaire< into oblivion, is not that obvious?

  54. 54
    sirtooting .

    The courts do not have the capacity to deal with all the crimes being committed, the prison service does not have sufficient prisons to lock all those criminals up if they could..

    It is all a farce, those that get sent to prison are just the tip of the ice berg .. Telling us that rapes are decreasing or crime is, is a joke.. The police can’t even be bothered to record most of it..

    Whatever you read in those statistic, times it by something, start at 20 times what you are reading and that is probably no where near the truth either..

    Men get away with murder, with rape, with robbery, mugging, burglary, intimidation, trafficking, smuggling .. all these crimes are male .. when you think of these crimes, your thoughts immediately conjure up a male and that is because it is the male who commits 99% of all these crimes.

    Very few men are convicted for rape and that is because it is set up by men, to allow men to avoid conviction, that is why the Ian Huntley’s and Jimmy Savilles can avoid prison, because the words of females are dismissed as untrustworthy by those who are wholly untrustworthy themselves.

  55. 55
  56. 56
    JT

    I am the exception, rather than the rule(sirtoooot)

    Im thinking you like to blow your own horn and maybe others. Toot, toot.

  57. 57
    Lucy

    “Surely there must be some white feminists somewhere who are not racist filth, who do not immediately revert to racist stereotypes and racist blindness to the oppression they inflict. Surely they must exist somewhere.”

    White women ran the trans-Atlantic slave trade practically single handedly, and as everyone knows, the women were the most sadistic; when then weren’t whipping people like crazed banshees, they were making false rape claims to get black men lynched and having the vapours over maids using the indoor toilet. Also they’re large and fleshy and self-entitled.

    It’s true, I’ve seen it in lots of films produced, written and directed by men, and in To Kill a Mockingbird and The Help.

    So it’s perfectly okay to call women white bitches, suck your teeth when you pass them in the street in London, usurp anti-sexism with anti-racism and make BBC series like Tribal Wives. They deserve it.

  58. 58
    Lucy

    Ginkgo

    “An exception? Lynching and judicvial lynching of black men over false claims of rape by white women is an exception? It was no exception, it was the rukle, and the rule istill in effect, if you bother to look at sentencing statistics.”

    It was and remains the rule to illegally lynch or legally execute black men? In general or innocent ones in particular? Or the rule for white women to be racist liars? Just in the case of rape allegations?

    What statistics? You have statistics for white women making false rape accusations against black men which resulted in lynching and continue to result in execution?

    Or did you mean to say you read To Kill A Mockingbird and Mississippi Burning and you’re sure it’s the case?

  59. 59
    Sasori

    That is so interesting, I don’t know what to think now.

    Some totally random speculation; could those links in the “the startling truth about female sexual aggression” post be cherry picking studies that found relatively high rates of female perpetuated sexual violence? To me they are too many and cover too long a period to be anomalous but it would be interesting to look for studies that asked men and women similar questions and received a result in line with mainstream expectations.
    Also, what are the differences in questions asked by those studies and this one, does it require a specific description of the act (‘forced to penetrate’ etc) for men to admit that this has happened to them? Did the fact that this (seems like it was) and internet questionnaire have any effect?

  60. 60
    sirtooting .

    Mr Fogg’s opinion
    “The results were that 9.8% of women and 1.4% of men reported having been the victim of non-volitional sex. For easy comparison, that would mean that for every eight rapes, seven were of women and one was of a man.”

    On the surface, this appears to be quite a reasonable opinion, but these people who completed the survey, may not have been men and women when the rape of them occurred. So we should refer to them in this instance as females and males.

    What is not included in this survey, is how many times these people were actually raped. Most of those who were raped, were raped by people they knew well, either related to or in a relationship with.

    And this is from the Lancet report
    “Our data show that one in five women and one in 20 men in Britain report experiencing attempted non-volitional sex, and one in ten women and one in 71 men report experiencing completed non-volitional sex since age 13 years.”

    Statistically, One in 10 women are raped.. and with regards to reporting these rapes
    “Where our data do concur with the Crime Survey for England and Wales is in the nature of the relationship with the perpetrator, who is most often someone known to the individual, and we also show similar low levels of reporting to the police”

    Females are not inclined to report rape to the police, because they don’t believe they will be believed, because the trustworthiness of females is culturally demoralized to cast doubt on their words and this then ensures males are believed over females.
    Male propaganda assists men and the world is like this.. Male propaganda, praise the male, masculinity and all things male, and anything outside of that ridicule and belittle, devalue as worthless compared to the male.

    Women got paid less, because men said, that was all women were worth.. <— You see here.. This is males determining what rights and freedoms the female should be allowed to have .. Men decide what rights women should have..

    And in this, males are deciding females will not get the full focus or attention on a problem that by and large affects females, because we are to be distracted by a problem that barely affects males and where it does affect males, mostly the perpetrators are the same gender as those who rape females.

    "Our data show, one in ten women and one in 71 men report experiencing completed non-volitional sex since age 13 years"

    My brother, was raped by a man, a stranger when he was aged 7 years, and my aunt was raped when she was aged 10 years by a male neighbour.

    The rape of my aunt was so violent, she was unable to have children in later life and she was so desperate to become a mother, she self induced a phantom pregnancy and whilst in hospital the doctors told her she had miscarried to ease her pain and she told my mother, when they discharge me from here, I will be dead.
    Three days later they did discharge her and as she walked away from the hospital, only a few yards away from it, she dropped down dead.
    My mother sat down in the gutter and wept.

    My brother has various mental problems and the problems the rape of my relatives has caused my family are manifold.
    My grandmother used to be beaten on a regular basis by my grandfather and she tried to kill herself and when he found her nearly dead the shock of it, is the only thing that stopped him in his tracks.
    My aunt who was raped, got married, & her husband wasn't averse to smacking her around when he felt like it either.

    You know what would be great? If men focused on men’s violence and admitted it was a problem that needed to be dealt with

    “Our data show, one in ten women and one in 71 men report experiencing completed non-volitional sex since age 13 years”

  61. 61
    Tamen

    sirtooting

    Mr Fogg’s opinion
    “The results were that 9.8% of women and 1.4% of men reported having been the victim of non-volitional sex. For easy comparison, that would mean that for every eight rapes, seven were of women and one was of a man.”

    No, that isn’t Mr Fogg’s opinion, it’s him repeating the findings published in a national survey. The only thing Mr Fogg added was that this finding (9.8% women and 1.4% men) would mean that for every eight rapes, seven were of women and one was of a man. That is also not an opinion – that is mathematics

    I am sorry for what happened to your brother, your aunt and your grandmother. I am also sorry that you think men like me are just a distraction. That is not going to shut us up though.

  62. 62
    sirtooting .

    Mr Fogg has not told us what the percentage figures represent?

    1 in 71 men are raped .. 1 in 10 women are raped, these are the figures from the Lancet, that Mr Fogg is quoting his percentage figures from and his & their figures do not concur because Mr Fogg has assumed something that he shouldn’t have, hence he has come to an erroneous conclusion.

    We see men pressing for the exception not the rule to be focused on and the reasoning behind this is, because men don’t want to focus on criticizing the perpetrators of these crimes who are in the majority men, and this would lead to a criticism of themselves.

  63. 63
    Tamen

    I’ve looked closer at the methodology and I was somewhat mistaken when I in my comment @26 stated that the findings of male victimization of NATSAL-3 were lower than the NISVS 2010 findings.

    NATSAL-3 and NISVS 2010 findings are in fact almost identical:
    NATSAL-3 vs NISVS 2010:
    Women:19.7% vs. 18.3%
    Men: 4.7% vs 4.8%

    For the gritty details see my blogpost: http://tamenwrote.wordpress.com/2013/12/01/uk-natsal-3-and-a-bit-of-nisvs-2010/ where I go a bit more into the details of methodology and questionaire of NATSAL-3 and explain why it is comparable with the NISVS 2010 Report (and where it may differ).

  64. 64
    JT

    Toot

    Im not sure what is more concerning, you and your incessant rambling or me for wanting to strangle you. ;)
    Someone pass me a beer. :)

  65. 65
    Tamen

    No, you see men pressing for the inclusion of male victims and for a stop in the erasing of male victims. Erasing perfectly exemplified by using words like

    exception not the rule

    males are deciding females will not get the full focus or attention on a problem that by and large affects females, because we are to be distracted by a problem that barely affects males

    Erasing which includes your brother.

  66. 66
    Tamen

    Mr Fogg has not told us what the percentage figures represent?

    1 in 71 men are raped .. 1 in 10 women are raped, these are the figures from the Lancet, that Mr Fogg is quoting his percentage figures from and his & their figures do not concur

    He has told us:

    9.8% of women and 1.4% of men reported having been the victim of non-volitional sex. For easy comparison, that would mean that for every eight rapes, seven were of women and one was of a man.

    1.4% = 1 in 71 and 9.8% = ~1 in 10. For the sake of simplifying the calculation we assume 70 men and 70 women and then we end up with 1 male victim and 7 female victims which gives u exactly what Ally wrote.

    The figures concur. This is called mathematics by the way. You should try it sometimes.

    Are you a Poe?

  67. 67
    sheaf

    66:

    You do not even need to simplify, since 9.8/1.4=7. The numbers pan out exactly assuming a 50/50 gender ratio :D.

  68. 68
    Lucy

    Sir Tooting

    “You know what would be great? If men focused on men’s violence and admitted it was a problem that needed to be dealt with”

    Well they’ve had 40,000 years to do that and haven’t got around to it yet, so don’t hold your breath. When you’re in charge and get to set the terms of the debate, you’ll find it’s much more satisfying to say there’s a big man in the sky and it’s his will, and then to create a complex social institution to implement it; or to invent various female virtues and vices and blame your victim for transgressing them and forcing you to do it; or to come up with a convoluted social theory about the family man’s burden and believe your own hype (Ally I’m talking to you); or to say that they’re exaggerating the problem because their little brains can’t cope with data (Ally I’m talking to you); or when all else fails to dilute it by juxtaposing it against another form of practically unrelated male crime to try to draw generic conclusions (Ally I’m talking to you).

    Frankly I’m constantly surprised that female violence is as contained as it is. I’m amazed 3 billion females aren’t in a righteous rage sweeping across the globe like a holy tsunami from the hottest circle of hell. I guess that’s low testosterone for ya.

  69. 69
    Lucy

    Schlumbumbi

    “(1) By the nature of the matter, it is impossible to gather objective evidence for what did not happen.

    (2) Even if it’s theoretically possible to gather circumstantial evidence to disprove an accusation, our ability to do so is strictly limited by the intelligence of the perpetrator and how (s)he has constructed the details of the accusation. Only the dumbest of the really dumb have their day in court.

    (3) Since there is no reliable objective measurement of false allegations, every single instance will be marked as “anecdotal evidence”, regardless of the number of incidents in total.”

    Wow, this is some rock solid evidence you’ve got for the female-false-rape-allegation trend. What we need is an equally valid examination of their motives.

    “What makes this crime so incomprehensible to most victims, resulting in utterances like “bitches be crazy”, is the psychology behind it. It can be anything, ranging from ice cold calculation, over remote pressure, to most severe disturbances in the cognitive processing of a person.”

    Phew!

    ————————-

    With theorising like this, we’re going to have cracked intelligent design before the month is out!

  70. 70
    Lucy

    Ally: “which is that there was a large rise in the rate of rape of young women over the 1970s to the 1990s which has since gone into decline”

    There has been a corresponding rise in divorce, separation and single-female-person/parent households.

  71. 71
    Lucy

    Why is the advert on this page instructing me to get bigger breasts?

  72. 72
    Tamen

    Ally:

    The other detail in the report which caught my attention, which I haven’t seen mentioned elsewhere, was that among both male and female victims the median age for the last incidence (of non-volitional sex) was at a very early age – 16 for men, 18 for women. For men, there was no difference in this between different age cohorts, but for women, the youngest group (16-24) and the oldest group (65-74) had significantly lower incidence rates than other groups.

    The age-cohorts breakdown in Table 2 in the report show the age of the respondents at the time of the interview, not the age of last incident as your paragraph above can be interpreted as saying. So, yes, the report state the median age for last incidence, but as far as I could see they don’t report the distribution of age of last incidents in the report.

  73. 73
    Tamen

    Ally:

    Another thing. I know you’ve stated that you are not very troubled/OK with SOA 2003 not including made to penetrate as rape since that particular offense is called “Causing sexual activity without consent) and is covered by the Sexual Offenses Act of 2003 section 4 subsection 4 c) and d) and that it, like rape, also has a maximum sentencing of life. They appear to be pretty equal,

    The sentencing guidelines however differs:

    type/nature of activity: Single offence of rape by single offender

    Starting points: 10 years custody if the victim is under 13
    Sentencing ranges: 8 – 13 years custody
    Starting points: 8 years custody if the victim is 13 or over but under 16
    Sentencing ranges: 6 – 11 years custody
    Starting points: 5 years custody if the victim is 16 or over
    Sentencing ranges: 4 – 8 years custody

    - http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/

    Type/nature of activity: Single offence of penetration of/by single offender with no aggravating or mitigating factors

    Starting points: 7 years custody if the victim is a child under 13 or a person with a mental disorder
    Sentencing ranges: 5 – 10 years custody
    Starting points: 5 years custody if the victim is 13 or over but under 16
    Sentencing ranges: 4 – 8 years custody
    Starting points: 3 years custody if the victim is 16 or over
    Sentencing ranges: 2 – 5 years custody

    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s4_causing_sexual_activity/

    Also note how rape (a man penetrating another person without their consent) not only falls under Section 1 Rape, but would also fall under Section 4.4 Causing sexual activity without rape. Why have multiple laws sections for the same act?

  74. 74
    Lucy

    “Why have multiple laws sections for the same act?”

    Because a man can be induced by a third party to rape.

  75. 75
    Tamen

    I made a mistype/mispaste in the second to last sentence in my comment and ended up with the word “rape” one place where it shouldæve been “cconsent”, which may muddle the meaning of the paragraph. The paragraph should read:

    Also note how rape (a man penetrating another person without their consent) not only falls under Section 1 Rape, but would also fall under Section 4.4 Causing sexual activity without consent. Why have multiple laws sections for the same act?

    Lucy:

    Because a man can be induced by a third party to rape.

    That would be covered by both sections when I look at the definition of “induce”:

     
    1 succeed in persuading or influencing (someone) to do something.
    synonyms: persuade, convince, prevail upon, get, make, prompt, move, inspire, influence, encourage, motivate
    2 bring about or give rise to.
    synonyms: bring about, cause, produce, effect, create, give rise to, generate, instigate, engender, occasion, set in motion, lead to, result in, trigger, whip up, stir up, kindle, arouse, rouse, foster, promote, encourage;

    I somehow don’t think “someone induced me to do it” would by itself fare very well as a mens rea defense in a rape case.

    Had you written “threatened” or “forced” then it could be argued that it wouldn’t be covered by section 1*. Regardless it would be covered by 4.4.

    Section 4 in its entirety also covers everything section 1 covers.

    In short section 4 “Causing sexual activity without consent” is a superset of section 1 “Rape” and I wonder why that doesn’t make section 1 rape superfluous as it is covered by another part of the law.

    Link to SOA 2003: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents

  76. 76
    Gjenganger

    Sorry for butting in: Surely the point of section four is to cover people who do not participate in the sex themselves but cause other people to do it. Which could be by force or threats, but also by deception. If you set up your mate to believe that your wife is a hard-core masochist with a rape fantasy, that might well cause him to rape her. The mate might or might not be able to avoid a conviction on the basis that he ‘reasonably beleived’ he had consent, but either way the person setting it up might still be liable.

  77. 77
    JT

    Frankly I’m constantly surprised that female violence is as contained as it is. I’m amazed 3 billion females aren’t in a righteous rage sweeping across the globe like a holy tsunami from the hottest circle of hell. I guess that’s low testosterone for ya.(Lucy)

    I could tell you that maybe its because women are too stupid to figure it out but we both know that is not true. The truth is, women, like many smaller(less testosterone) men figured out how to manipulate others to do the violence for them. Or they just wait till someone falls asleep, that evens the odds pretty damn quick. Obviously you seem to not use those tactics and thus remain a victim rather than perp. Good for you.

  78. 78
    Mr Supertypo

    Lucy

    “Frankly I’m constantly surprised that female violence is as contained as it is. I’m amazed 3 billion females aren’t in a righteous rage sweeping across the globe like a holy tsunami from the hottest circle of hell. I guess that’s low testosterone for ya.(Lucy)”

    Why should they?

  79. 79
    Ginkgo

    “Frankly I’m constantly surprised that female violence is as contained as it is. I’m amazed 3 billion females aren’t in a righteous rage sweeping across the globe like a holy tsunami from the hottest circle of hell. I guess that’s low testosterone for ya.(Lucy)”

    That, or an awareness of how much they depend on and benefit from all this violence.

  80. 80
    ThisOne

    >“You know what would be great? If men focused on men’s violence and admitted it was a problem that needed to be dealt with”>

    We cannot really focus on men’s violence while we simultaneously ignore the fact that they main care giver is and likely always been the main child abuser and a roughly 50% contributor to the partner violence that children witness.

  81. 81
    Mr Supertypo

    ” You know what would be great? If men focused on men’s violence and admitted it was a problem that needed to be dealt with ”

    Isnt that what happens around? there are so much focus on specific gendered violence (male violence) that it overshadow everything else. Some people dont even know that female violence exist others either deny it or minimize it. Come on, from only men can stop rape slogans to domestic shelters only for women. The approach is so stupid because violence is basic in all living species, so it means its universal, and the only way to fight it is to identify it how it is…a basic animalistic behavior. Not just a male problem. But far to many people are simply to stupid to see it or even understand it. They only focus on male violence. Well super genious HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BUILD A BETTER WORLD IF YOU ONLY KEEP LOOKING AT THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN? you cant.

    Lucy

    “Well they’ve had 40,000 years to do that and haven’t got around to it yet, so don’t hold your breath. ”

    Yeah no wonder. Violence wont be stopped not even in 80000y. Because some fools insist stubbornly to see violence as a male thingy. Instead going resorting to all this pseudoscience BS they will look at the fact how they are as: children are violent, yes including the sugar spice and everything nice people, boys are violent, women are violent, men are violent, animals are violent, squids are violent…..EVERY FRIGGING living being on this planet has the potential for violence. This is the reality, but somebody still prefer to dream of a testosterone free world or a phantomatic female revolt (against who? why?), all these are good as sci-fi like Y the last man or some 70′s sci fi flick. But nothing more.

    Deconstructing patriarchy only leads to unregulated violence , removing testosterone will only lead to testosterone free violence, removing the social and economic causes will only lead to unreasonable violence. Every time there are any kind of social interaction it can lead to outburst of violence either psychical or psychological (otherwise you can always go solo and even then…). The only way to stop everything is to either go robot, addicted or stop living altogether. Another way is to create a network of support and cultural allergy toward irrational and aggressive behavior (as they have unsuccessful tried all these years), and that can only be done when we see violence for what it is, a basic animal behavior, instinctive not rational (unless we are talking about premeditated violence, like mafia etc) cross species, cross gender. Everything else is just a load of feces and frankly a waste of time.

  82. 82
    sirtooting .

    Male violence, where males make the decision, not to arm women in times of war but arm themselves to the teeth and then don’t mind killing women who are unarmed or raping them by the million.

    Male violence has not been dealt with because male violence is as prevalent as it ever was.

    A man getting attacked and raped by another man would not result in the victim being grilled about how “slutty” his clothing was or whether or not he was “asking for it.” That’s some bullshit male privilege right there.

    How often has Mr Fogg or you been sexually assaulted by someone bigger, stronger, and brutally persistent? Probably never, hey.

    Being able to assert one’s authority and dismiss other people’s collective experiences seems to be a male privilege in and of itself because when women are dismissive of men’s little problems they are called heartless beings who don’t care about men.
    1 in 10 women are raped and their rapists are male
    1 in 71 men are raped and their rapists are male.

    Women are 61 times more likely to be raped by men than men are, and men have virtually zero to fear from women.
    It is rampant male violence in a culture that is the concern of a culture, and the culture spends a majority of its time trying to find ways to curb it, contain it and decrease it
    .

    When there are riots it will be males who will smash the place up, when you think of an intruder in your home robbing you, it will ultimately occur to you it will be a male, because 99.99% of the time, you know it is, Armed robbery the same, car theft, muggings, robberies, anything you name it, yes & rape.

    In Turkey, a football club got so sick of there so called fans, who roamed around the town after a match looking for a punch up and attacking people and their property, the club decided to sell the football tickets only to women, so the men couldn’t watch their team unless each of them were accompanied by a woman. This created a totally different atmosphere in the stadium. No one feared women, the football hooliganism stopped because men were to embarrassed to act like a pack of wolves. So which is it, are they pretending to be civilized or pretending to be a bunch monkeys on the rampage.
    Why are men acting differently in the company of women?

    Male violence has not been dealt with because male violence is as prevalent as it ever was.

    Male violence against women is justified by what a woman decides to wear or how much she decides to drink. This is men justifying rape and in order to excuse rapists, claim women encourage abuse by drinking.

    Women have as much right to enjoy time out as men: but are judged harshly for their behaviors in a way men never are.

    By the way what was Mr Fogg wearing, when he was molested, and did it cause the woman to want her to molest him? Do you think his is a false rape attempt allegation.. The poor woman, what is Mr Fogg thinking? He could destroy this woman’s reputation by making these false allegations..
    Next time Mr Fogg don’t dress like you are up for it.. You know women have little self control so you must make sure you don’t dress to draw attention to yourself, because if the woman loses all self control in this instance then you must take the blame and you won’t get any sympathy from women, when you knowingly drew attention to yourself by and you had an idea what the outcome might be .. So don’t put temptation in their way, when you know they are to weak to resist, Other wise what do you expect? Sympathy, empathy, justice
    The woman isn’t to blame you are.. This allegation is no more than remorse on your part, you know you enjoyed it, your friend Mr Mike Buchanan has explained it, there are no victims, only people with remorse.

  83. 83
    Tamen

    sirtooting:

    A man getting attacked and raped by another man would not result in the victim being grilled about how “slutty” his clothing was or whether or not he was “asking for it.” That’s some bullshit male privilege right there.

    Calling that “bullshit male privilege” is a misnomer and it also make you sound as a proponent for victim-blaming of male rape victims rather than a opponent against victim-blaming of female victims. And based on your comments so far on this thread I think that is exactly right.

    Thinking that male rape victims doesn’t get victim-blamed is a display of ignorance or empathy or both. Male rape victim do get victim-blamed. The ones I’ve heard the most often are “why didn’t you just fight her off if you didn’t want to have sex with her?” , “why did you make out with her earlier that nigh?” and “If you didn’t want it why did you get an erection.“-

    Our experiences are often erased or minimized by people who have no qualms about shoving how callous they are towards certain groups of victims. The quoted paragraph by you above is an example of such minimizing when directed at male victims. Another similar example is when a man wrote about how a woman violently tried to rape him some asshole saw it fit to post this statement in the comments:

    The sad part is, no one will ever ask you what you were wearing and how much you had to drink.

    This person commenting and the six who upvoted that comment found it sad that no-one would victim-blame this man who’s female friend tried rape him. The commenter apparently found that more sad than the violent rape-attempt itself since the commenter didn’t find that worthy enough to even mention. And further this commenter is apparently blissfully unaware of some of the other victim-blaming comments the victim got on his post:


    I wonder how much talk of rough sex led up to this string of events.

    Am I blaming the victim here when I say “Don’t lead on crazy”?
    I can’t help but chuckle. The fact is that you are bigger and stronger and you know how to defend yourself, you were not victimized so you are not the victim.

    Don’t stick your dick in crazy, Mike!

    you shoulda f*cked her, dude

    Oh, and there is even an female commenter who admit to almost having done the same thing (rape attempt, but sans physical attack) in the comments and she asks the victim to consider to go easy on his perpetrator and to let her gloss it over.

    That comment appears innocuous at first glance, but if we reverse the genders of the situation like this:

    Imagine if a man attempted to rape a women, bruising her face, poking his thumbs into her eyes and biting her in the face until blood ran until the woman or something else managed to stop the would-be-rapists. Further imagine another man afterwards telling the victim that he also almost raped a woman one time (sans the face biting and physical attack) and that he thought the victim should consider letting the perpetrator gloss it over.

    we immediately see it for what it is: making excuses for the perpetrator.

    That was some examples of victim-blamings in a female-on-male rape case. Victim-blaming of-course occur as well when it’s a matter of male-on-male rape and for female victims regardless of gender of perpetrator, see for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19042285

    Here is a PhD thesis paper looking at several published papers on victim blaming of straight and gay men as well as gay and straight women: http://idea.library.drexel.edu/bitstream/1860/62/2/lawler_thesis.pdf

    Being able to assert one’s authority and dismiss other people’s collective experiences seems to be a male privilege in and of itself because when women are dismissive of men’s little problems they are called heartless beings who don’t care about men.
    1 in 10 women are raped and their rapists are male
    1 in 71 men are raped and their rapists are male.

    Women are 61 times more likely to be raped by men than men are, and men have virtually zero to fear from women.

    Care to explain how 1 in 10 is 61 times for likely than 1 in 71? Hint #1: 71 minus 10 is not a correct explanation. Hint #2: There isn’t a correct explanation for your result, the real answer is 71 / 10 = ~7 times more likely given the numbers you gave.

    If you used the numbers from NATSAL-3 (which is the subject of Ally’s post) you’d be well advices to note that that survey did not ask about gender of the perpetrator – hence your assertion that rapists are male is not supported by that data and is something you just pulled out of your ass.

    when women are dismissive of men’s little problems they are called heartless beings

    That because they and you (for that dismissive adjective “little”) are.

    I have very little hope that any of this will sway your mind in any way since I suspect someone who thinks that 1 in 10 is 61 time more likely than 1 in 71 and who thinks that Ally Fogg considers Mike Buchanan a friend is rather closed minded.

  84. 84
    sirtooting .

    “A man getting attacked and raped by another man would not result in the victim being grilled about how “slutty” his clothing was or whether or not he was “asking for it.” and your answer to this is

    ” The ones I’ve heard the most often are “why didn’t you just fight her off if you didn’t want to have sex with her?” , “why did you make out with her earlier that nigh?” and “If you didn’t want it why did you get an erection.“

    Yes, where exactly have you heard this?

    What men are concerned about regarding sex is not getting sex, but the lack of getting it and when a man says he got it. It is regarded as a victory by himself and his bro’s.

    The phone companies have set up sex chat lines, where men can phone in for a fee and act out their sexual fantasies, one of the first words that will come out of their mouths is.. What are you wearing?
    This service is very popular with men and the phone companies are earning millions out of it and women are being paid to listen to men verbally abusing them for men’s own sexual gratification.
    What a service to provide for the male, what a male privilege that is, to be allowed to verbally and sexually abuse a woman, and all because he gets off on it.
    Catering to men’s needs apparently .. and is that what they need to get off on? Oh yeah apparently it is..

    This service is for men, culturally we pander to men and allow them to abuse women in this way and women are supposed to put up with this abuse and men expect them to put up with it and not question it, it Is exactly the same with prostitution, that is another service for men that men expect to exist, and they expect women will be made readily available for them to molest, maul and verbally and sexually abuse.

    “Why didn’t you just fight her off if you didn’t want to have sex with her”
    Mr Fogg, when being molested pondered for a few seconds on whether he was interested, and when he decided he wasn’t, he stopped her in her tracks and at no time did he think he couldn’t stop it.

    The survey Mr Fogg is referring to states
    Women were also more likely than men to have reported the event to the police (12·9% of women vs 8·0% of men).
    The proportion of women who either told someone or reported the event to the police varied by age at interview
    (figure 2) and by perpetrator (figure 3).
    The proportion of women reporting to the police increased with younger age at interview, and was higher when the perpetrator was a stranger (20·9% of women reported the act when it was committed by a stranger compared with 9·4% when it was committed by a current or former intimate partner).

    Again, the corresponding figures for men are not shown because of the small numbers involved.

    The instances of men 1 in 71 experiencing completed non-volitional sex Is so low, it doesn’t even make it on a graph.
    It barely ever occurs, it’s an exception, and is such an exception and so low in numbers, it doesn’t even register on a graph, .. Get that?

    Unfortunately this isn’t the same case for women who are being raped by men and where men’s whims are pandered to and it allows men culturally to abuse women for men’s own sexual satisfaction.

    It has been reported this week that boys as young as 10 year old are involved in coercing young girls for sex, nothing in this is surprising in a culture that panders to men’s whims which accommodates their wishes to abuse females and where males expect it to be the norm where they can take for granted their whims will be accommodated so they can abuse women for their own sexual gratification

  85. 85
    carnation

    @ Gingko

    “That, or an awareness of how much they depend on and benefit from all this violence.”

    Couldn’t let this beauty pass unchallenged.

    What on earth are you talking about??

  86. 86
    Tamen

    sirtooting

    ” The ones I’ve heard the most often are “why didn’t you just fight her off if you didn’t want to have sex with her?” , “why did you make out with her earlier that nigh?” and “If you didn’t want it why did you get an erection.“

    Yes, where exactly have you heard this?

    You really are daft, aren’t you. I have heard those first-hand directed at me.

    What men are concerned about regarding sex is not getting sex, but the lack of getting it and when a man says he got it. It is regarded as a victory by himself and his bro’s.

    I am a man and I do not consider it a victory that another person decided to have sex with me without my consent while I was asleep. On the other hand I suspect the rapist though that I would consider it a victory and hence what you have written above is an rape-enabling idea and holding that belief makes you an unsafe person for any male partners you may have.

    The phone companies have set up sex chat lines, where men can phone in for a fee and act out their sexual fantasies, one of the first words that will come out of their mouths is.. What are you wearing?

    And one of the more common sexual fantasies among women are rape-fantasies. Which again proves little about what they want or do in real life.

    The proportion of women reporting to the police increased with younger age at interview, and was higher when the perpetrator was a stranger (20·9% of women reported the act when it was committed by a stranger compared with 9·4% when it was committed by a current or former intimate partner).

    The instances of men 1 in 71 experiencing completed non-volitional sex Is so low, it doesn’t even make it on a graph.
    It barely ever occurs, it’s an exception, and is such an exception and so low in numbers, it doesn’t even register on a graph, .. Get that?

    I really do feel sorry for your brother whose experience his sibling is so quick to throw under the bus as an aberration and as something men consider a victory.

    First, the paragraph you cited above looked at distribution of victims who reported to the police broken down into age of the victim and association with the perpetrator – not the total number of male victims vs. female victims as you imply with your last sentence. A sentence which state that 1 in 71 is too small a number to register on a graph. Apparently fractions really are hard for you.

    Oh, look-see, I found an impossible graph – see page 3: http://www.natsal.ac.uk/media/823260/natsal_findings_final.pdf

    Lifetime risks for dying in a motor accident is about 1 in 240 in the UK, according to your logic fatal traffic accidents barely ever occurs, are exceptions and is such an exception and so low in numbers, it doesn’t even register on a graph. No need for any traffic police, road safety awareness campaigns and so on then.

    I have noted the hypocrisy in that none of the people who on earlier threads demanded that MRAs and some others denounce Paul Elam even when they weren’t talking about him have done nothing to denounce or even state disagreement with any of self-identified Artist and Feminist sirtooting’s total disregard of male victims in his thread as well as blatant unqualified generalizations about men.

  87. 87
    sirtooting .

    “The phone companies have set up sex chat lines, where men can phone in for a fee and act out their sexual fantasies, one of the first words that will come out of their mouths is.. What are you wearing?”

    Where men pay to verbally and sexually abuse women and men think they have the right to expect women to tolerate such abuse in their culture..
    And your reply to this is ..

    “And one of the more common sexual fantasies among women are rape-fantasies. Which again proves little about what they want or do in real life”

    No.1/What the fuck has that got to do with the above..
    No.2/So glad you can know what women’s dreams are, maybe you can also tell us what their nightmares are?

    It’s so sad you have no understanding what rape is.. Rape fantasies ..Puuh ..What a joke that is, haha .. Because you can’t rape the willing, don’t you know that? Are you that thick? It can’t be called rape in those circumstances ..

    No.3/And one of the more common sexual fantasies among men are rape-fantasies, where they imagine themselves raping women. … Does that make most men rapists, the fact that most men dream about raping women?

    “I really do feel sorry for your brother whose experience his sibling is so quick to throw under the bus as an aberration and as something men consider a victory.”

    You feel sorry for my brother, I will pass your message on to him.. I am sure he will thank you for that.. In the survey he is not covered, they have only asked about rape incidents from the age 13 or above, so if he had completed the survey, his experience wouldn’t be on the graph ..
    But it was a man who raped him, shall we dwell on the fact that the majority of rapes are committed by men?
    Yes, we should, we should focus all our attention on that to figure out how to stop this terrible abuse.

    A culture that panders to men’s sexual wants and desires to abuse others is not a good culture.. Where men believe they have a right to expect women to tolerate being verbally and sexually abused by them.. Is what we have.

    My brother is a Feminist, he also want’s this abuse stopped, if the survey had included all incidents of rape, how different would that survey be?

    You say women dream about being raped, an illogical conclusion, because if someone is willing to have sex, they are not raped, that is quite clear but men do fantasize about raping women ..
    We have the fantasies of people and we know from these fantasies then who the rapists are.
    It is Men who fantasize raping… and many men get to realise their fantasies through a culture that panders to their wishes to abuse others, and facilitates them to achieve their goals.

    For all the crimes that are committed by men, barely any of them end up in court, it is just the tip of the iceberg, we see, and most will never end up in a court because there aren’t enough police, social workers, or judges or courts to deal with them and if there were, there aren’t enough prisons in existence to contain them all..

    If you are looking at a survey times the problem 20 fold and you still won’t be anywhere near the true figure ..
    Worldwide, the problem of men abusing women is phenomenal..

    Males expect females to be made readily available for them to be abuse and culturally women are supposed to tolerate this abuse because men say they should..
    Cultures pander to men’s wishes to abuse others.. so let’s not facilitate this abuse anymore.

  88. 88
    Tamen

    No 1: You asserted that male sexual fantasies manifest themselves in actual real behaviour. I offered a counter-example of how female sexual fantasies does NOT manifest themselves in actual real behaviour nor in ever wanting that fantasy come true.

    No 2: The most common seems to be about falling: http://www.bdp-gus.de/gp/Alptr%C3%A4ume-Abstr.pdf

    No 3:

    And one of the more common sexual fantasies among men are rape-fantasies, where they imagine themselves raping women. … Does that make most men rapists, the fact that most men dream about raping women?

    No. But that is pretty much what you implied by your original statement in the comment I first replied to. If you didn’t mean to imply that then perhaps you should qualify your generalizations in the future. Also, although I am sure there are a certain amount of verbal abuse of phone sex operators from clients I’d wager that the opening line “What are you wearing?” doesn’t register as verbal abuse among most of the operators themselves.

    But it was a man who raped him, shall we dwell on the fact that the majority of rapes are committed by men?
    Yes, we should, we should focus all our attention on that to figure out how to stop this terrible abuse.

    See, I don’t mind that many focus on rapes committed by men, but I bloody well mind that you are saying that everyone should focus all their attention on that and just ignore the cases where women are perpetrators.

    According to the NISVS 2010 Report about every 5th (1 in 5.25) victim of attempted or completed rape is a man and the perpetrator is a woman. That is not negligible. That you think it is and that you think that whenever (and however) a man gets sex he thinks it’s a victory tells me scores about you.

    If you are looking at a survey times the problem 20 fold and you still won’t be anywhere near the true figure ..
    Worldwide, the problem of men abusing women is phenomenal..

    Yes, those survey often underreport the problem. The consensus among researcher as far as I’ve seen (feel free to point me to any researcher saying the oipposite) is that men underreport more than women and in particular cases where the perpetrator is female.

    As for worldwide. Did you know that in India more boys (up to 18 year olds) are raped than girls? Did you know that in South Africa more boys (10-18) are raped than girls and that the majority of those reported that the perpetrator was a female (32% men, 41% women, 27% both). Did you know that among university students in Uganda there is a near gender parity for being victims of sexual coercion (women 32% men 29%) and that there was no difference between genders in impact of sexual coercion.
    Did you know that in most countries boys makeup half or more of the underaged prostitutes – and that some of them also serve female customers. Did you know that when those boys prostitutes in the US get into contact with authorities (police) they are more likely to be arrested and put into juvenile detention than girl prostitutes who are more likely to get referred to social services. And when those boys are put into juvenile detention they are easy prey for female staff:

    8.2% of males and 2.4% of females reported sexual activity with staff
    Of the 1,390 youths who reported victimization by staff, 89.1% were males reporting sexual activity with female staff and 3.0% were males reporting sexual activity with both male and female staff. In comparison, males comprised 91% of adjudicated youth in the survey and female staff accounted for 44% of staff in the sampled facilities.

    Following your logic then we shouldn’t care about preventing sexual abuse of female youth in juvenile detentions since they “only” make up 1 in every 20th victim. I reject that notion.

    The problem is NOT NEGLIGIBLE!.

    Pointing out the rate of victimization of men and the rate where the perpetrator is a woman IS NOT diminishing the victimization of women and the issue of male perpetrators. Arguing for focus on that problem as well is not downplaying. What you’ve done is this thread on the other hand very much has been distorting. diminishing, downplaying and downrigt scary (any woman (or man) who asserts that a man sees any sex he gets (no matter how he gets it) as a victory scares me because those are no different from those who think that a woman wants sex because she wears a short skirt).

    http://tamenwrote.wordpress.com/2013/10/26/but-globally-like-south-africa-or-india/
    http://tamenwrote.wordpress.com/2013/11/30/south-africa-rape-and-partner-violence-among-youths/
    http://tamenwrote.wordpress.com/2013/10/05/uganda/
    http://tamenwrote.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/and-boys-too/

  89. 89
    sirtooting .

    “No 1: You asserted that male sexual fantasies manifest themselves in actual real behaviour. I offered a counter-example of how female sexual fantasies does NOT manifest themselves in actual real behavior nor in ever wanting that fantasy come true.”

    No.1/As I explained earlier .. Women do not have rape fantasizes.. As you cannot have sex with the willing and call it rape..

    No.2/”You asserted that male sexual fantasies manifest themselves in actual real behaviour.” and a guy who phones a sex call line, expects there will be a woman at the other end of the line ready to listen his verbal and sexual abuse of her, he telling her exactly and explicitly what he wants her to do, and he imagining how he is fucking her.

    “You asserted that male sexual fantasies manifest themselves in actual real behaviour.” that is real behaviour the verbal sexual abuse of a woman is real, is real abuse.

    In this scenario his thoughts, his fantasizes have become verbal, he is not containing them, he is airing them and he thinks he has a right to verbally abuse a woman, he thinks women should be there for him to sexually abuse either verbally or physically.

    Prostitution is where men maul, molest & sexually abuse women and those men don’t care if the woman is there by her own choice or forced into it, it is irrelevant to those men who want to act out their fantasies and sexually abuse women, it is irrelevant.
    What is relevant to them is that women are made available for them to abuse, that is what concerns these men and their fantasizes ..These men want women made available.. They expect women will be made a readily available in their culture to abuse for their own male sexual gratification.
    Their fantasies have spilled out into reality, they are not contained, they have free rein, they are explicitly expressed.

    Men expect in their culture, women will be made readily available for them to verbally, sexually & physically abuse, they expect sex phone lines to exist where they can verbally abuse women by explicitly spewing out their fantasizes and prostitution rings, and pornography, and child porn sites and and .. The list is endless .. The peeping Tom does not confine his fantasies, his fantasizes only escalate over time.

    Men are pandered to, men demand the right to abuse women verbally, sexually or physically in their culture via pornography, sex phone lines, prostitution, cyber sex, child porn lines, rat music,
    And that demand is being readily supplied by pimps, the sex slave trade, prostitution rings, paedophiles, men’s magazines, the media, mafia style gangs,, you name it men are doing it to help other men, it’s called supply and demand.

    Men don’t care who is on the other end of the telephone line as long as it is a woman, they can verbally & sexually abuse, men don’t care if women are forced into prostitution they just care they are there so they can maul and sexually abuse them, men don’t care if women are forced to be in pornography, men only care that the pornography exists so they can get sexual gratification from it.
    Men don’t care about women when men are fantasizing about fucking them, what men care about is getting their own fantasizes realised in anyway they can and anything is regarded acceptable just as long as men get what they want and they want to be able abuse women to realise their own fantasies that spill from their brains into reality and as men demand it, there are always other men there ready to supply it, either with women’s consent or without.. either way they don’t care, as long as there is a demand for it they will readily supply it and there is always a demand, always.

    The survey does not include who the perpetrators of the rapes were, a very important piece of information to omit and of course omitting rapes from before the age of 13 years is not giving us the full picture we deserve, the disabled are also not included in this survey and their experiences, or the homeless, we are left to ponder who else and what else is not included in this survey and how they would affect the statistics if they were.
    These statistics can only be used as a guideline, they are not meant to reveal anything but a pattern of behaviour in a said culture and the rape of 1 in 10 women reveals a rape culture and if those things which they chose to omit had actually been included it would only have confirmed that reality all the more.

    My aunt died as a direct result of a rape that occurred years earlier, it destroyed her life and others, she wasn’t able to have children, that was her loss, hers brothers and sister loss who lost out on being uncles and aunts to her children, her mother who would have enjoyed being a grandmother to them and her husband who due to this rape eventually became a widower and childless and became an alcoholic.

    The after effects of rape can have terrible effects on the person raped and their family, it is a crime that affects not just one person but many, it is a destroyer of families.
    2% of rape claims are false and 98% are true but less that 10% of those who are guilty are convicted of their crimes.
    We do not have men up in arms about the lack of men being convicted for their heinous crimes instead what we have is questinong from men.. Why are men being accused at all?
    We must pander to men apparently and their wishes and their wish is not to be criticised at all or accused of any crime they have never accepted as being a crime .. Rape in marriage was not regarded as a crime until 1997.. Can you imagine that? .. not a crime .. just a man’s right .. How we pander to men and how long has a crime committed against women been allowed to go on unchallenged..
    Only a few countries have introduced this law that states rape in marriage is a crime, only a few, because most still don’t recognise it as that , but call it, men’s right’s.. to abuse women anyway they please and women’s consent is not needed when it is not regarded a crime..
    The male privilege ..He gave himself the right to abuse women anyway he pleased without fear of any consequences by denying it was a crime.
    Women don’t get justice, they get men building walls around themselves, denying any guilt and they aren’t interested or concerned with the majority of men who aren’t convicted for their crimes because that is their aim and is why they fully concern themselves making sure the 2% who are innocent also don’t get convicted either.. because focusing on the 2% for these men, means all these men are part of the 2% that are innocent.. They don’t ever mention the guilty only the innocent because they believe they are all innocent.
    It is tribal behaviour.. all the bro’s stick together and back each other up, no matter what, it keeps the unity, it maintains their male privilege, it keeps their bro’s out of prison.. all for one and one for all.. us against them,

    Men who fantasize about raping women, then find it very difficult to convict men of crimes they have committed themselves, even if it is only inside their heads.. Low conviction rates are due to men’s unwillingness to convict like minded men, it would then be a criticism of themselves.

  90. 90
    sirtooting .

    “NISVS 2010 Report about every 5th (1 in 5.25) victim of attempted or completed rape is a man and the perpetrator is a woman”

    Wow!.. Who knew that? .. Does it really say that? Are you absolutely sure?
    Of course you are sure, you are fully aware it doesn’t say that, but you are happy to merrily misinform people and spread lies via mra propaganda because it helps you and your bro’s to slur women for your own purposes.

    Lets see what’s what, shall we?
    http://manboobz.com/2013/10/29/cdc-mra-claims-that-40-of-rapists-are-women-are-based-on-bad-math-and-misuse-of-our-data/comment-page-8/

    A 12 months time period and a lifetime period have been equated as the same by mra’s to forge, fashion reproduce for fraudulent purposes; lies.
    They are beguilers, deceivers, tricksters, cheaters who will willfully counterfeit the truth to make you believe something that isn’t true.

  91. 91
    sirtooting .

    From your blog .. “So one perhaps point out the practice of bacha bazi (boys held in sexual slavery) in Afghanistan” .. Held in sexual slavery by men, by adult men..
    This is the point, it is men in the majority who commit rape, these boys aren’t being held against their will by women or raped by women but they are by men, you already confirmed yourself men fantasize about raping people.
    In one month 20,000 men responded to a fake account created to trap paedophiles, a fake image of a very young girl was produced and the men thought they were seeing a child on the screen and they were dictating to the fake image what they wanted her to do, to fulfill their sexual fantasies.

    Which is no different to sex phone chat lines, where men phone women and spew out the contents of their brains to achieve a hard on.
    There is no call for sex phone chat line where women phone men, women aren’t demanding anything like that and they aren’t responsible for the rape of young boys in Afghanistan but men are.

    Pandering to what men want or think they should have a right to have access to, to achieve their hard ons
    We pander to men in cultures, we allow men what they want, what they expect and what they demand, sexual gratification via being allowed to sexually abuse others.
    Supply and demand, men demand it, that others be made readily available for them to abuse.

    And men don’t care how that is achieved, only that it is

    In one month, 20,000 men looked to get a hard on by sexually abusing one child on the internet, they flocked to the fake account because they thought they were going to get their fantasies realised.. and they thought they would be able to dictate to the child what they wanted her to do for their own sexual pleasure and they went onto spill out the contents of their brains on the internet that then exposed them for what they were.
    That was a fake account and it drew those men to it, like a magnet, like flies around shit .. this was 20,000 men and not one woman amongst them.. because the demand for this internet content is emanating from men.

    I wonder what would happen if we were able to remove the entire pornographic imagery from the contents of the internet? would the demand for it magically cease?
    Yeah, when hell freezes over ..

  92. 92
    Tamen

    sirtooting @90:

    “NISVS 2010 Report about every 5th (1 in 5.25) victim of attempted or completed rape is a man and the perpetrator is a woman”

    Wow!.. Who knew that? .. Does it really say that? Are you absolutely sure?
    Of course you are sure, you are fully aware it doesn’t say that, but you are happy to merrily misinform people and spread lies via mra propaganda because it helps you and your bro’s to slur women for your own purposes.

    Lets see what’s what, shall we?
    http://manboobz.com/2013/10/29/cdc-mra-claims-that-40-of-rapists-are-women-are-based-on-bad-math-and-misuse-of-our-data/comment-page-8/

    A 12 months time period and a lifetime period have been equated as the same by mra’s to forge, fashion reproduce for fraudulent purposes; lies.
    They are beguilers, deceivers, tricksters, cheaters who will willfully counterfeit the truth to make you believe something that isn’t true.

    The claim that the linked manboobz article seeks to debunk is a different claim that the one I made so I shall ignore the irrelevant arguments in that article. Although I’ll encourage you to read and think for yourself in the future then perhaps you could’ve debunked my number yourself rather than demonstrate your inabillity/unwillingness to read and understand the difference between my claim and the claim that the Manboobz article seek to debunk.

    The 1 in 5.25 number was calculated using the lifetime figures. That said I see now in laying out the calculation gain in this comment that I’ve made a mistake in my original the calculation of that number. The mistake I made was mistaking for instance 4.8% / 18.3% = 26.2% to mean that a quarter of victims are male when the correct meaning is that the number of male victims are 26.2% of number of the female victims.

    Sincerely thank you for spurring me to revisit my calculation which gives me the opportunity to correct my mistake. I a, however, a flawed enough person to take some solace in the assumption that you’ll be disappointed that the difference between my original claim and the new corrected numbers aren’t bigger.

    The correct numbers are

    1 in 6 rape victims is a man raped (incl attempts) by a woman.
    1 in 5.5 rape victims is a person raped (incl attempts) by a woman.

    I’ll go through the calculation, using these facts from the NISVS 2010 Report -. thus allowing you to verify the facts/findings yourself as well as criticizing my calculations. All figures used are lifetime figures:

    * 18.3% of woman have been raped or victims of attempted rape in their lifetime (table 2.1 page 18)

    * 4.8% of men have been made to penetrate or victims of attempts to make them penetrate (table 2.2 page 19)

    * male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%) (page 24)

    * For female rape victims, 98.1% reported only male perpetrators. (page 24) – leaving 1.9% female perpetrators

    I am lowballing the number of male victims here by assuming a complete overlap between the 4.8% who have been made to penetrate and the 1.4% who have been penetratedand thus I am only assuming 4.8% male victims.

    This gives 4.8% / 18.3% = 26.2% of rape victims are male. That is 1 in 4.8 victims are male. That is for lifetime numbers. For “the last 12 months” 50% of victims would be a man. So how did I get the 1 in 6 and the 1 in 5.5 numbers:

    * 79.2% of the male victims are victimized by women leaving 4.8 * 79.2% = 3.8% of men are victimized by women.

    * 4.8%-3.8% = 1% of men are victimized by other men.

    * 98.1% of female victims are victimized by men leaving 18.3 * 98.1% = 17.9% of women victimized by men

    * 1.9% of female victims are victimized by women leaving 18.3 * 1.9% = 0.4% of women victimized by women

    Let’s add the female victims and the male victims victimized by men:
    17.9% + 0.4% + 1% = 19.3%

    Let’s add the victims of female perpetrators:
    3.8% + 0,4% = 4.2%

    Let’s add the victims of male perpetrators:
    17.9% + 1% = 18.9%

    Let’s list the male victims of female perpetrators:
    3.8%

    So how many lifetime victims of rape and made to penetrate (incl attempts) are men victimized by women? that is calculated by men victimized by women dividing the number of people victimized by men by the number of:

    3.8% / 19.3% = 19.7%

    This makes 1 in 6 victims of rape a man victimized by a woman.

    How many lifetime victims of rape (or attempt) regardless of gender is victimized by a woman?
    4.2% / 18.9% = 22.2%

    This makes 1 in 5.5 victims of rape (or attempt) a victim of a woman.

    I’ll be exhaustive here:
    Had I not lowballed the number of male victims and I had assumed no overlap with being penetrated and made to penetrate and thus “highballed” the number of male victims we’d had:

    (4.8% + 1.4%) / 18.3% ) = 0.34% which is 1 in 3.9 victims are male.

    99.3% of perpetrator of penetrating (incl attempts) a male victim were men: 1.4% * 99.3% = 1.39%
    0.7% of perpetrators of penetrating (incl attempts) a male victim were women: 1.4% * 0.7% = 0.01%

    (0.01% + 3.8%) / (19.7% + 1.39%) = 3.81% / 21.09% = 18.1% which is 1 in 6.5 vicitms of rape (incl attempts) is a man victimized by a woman.

    The real number (given NISVS 2010 findings) are therefore somewhere between 1 in 6 and 1 in 6.5.

    One possible argument is that NISVS 2010 didn’t include prison rape in any forms. And yes, the ratio will change somewhat if sexual abuse in prison were included, but perhaps not by as much as people would think According to 2008 numbers from US Bureau of Justice Statistics about 40% of sexual abuse against male inmates is perpetrated by female prison staff. The picture is even worse in the statistics for juvenile detention. BJS also found that the majority of sexual abuse reported by female inmates were perpetrated by other female inmates.

  93. 93
    Tamen

    In one month 20,000 men responded to a fake account created to trap paedophiles, a fake image of a very young girl was produced and the men thought they were seeing a child on the screen and they were dictating to the fake image what they wanted her to do, to fulfill their sexual fantasies.

    That was a fake account and it drew those men to it, like a magnet, like flies around shit .. this was 20,000 men and not one woman amongst them.. because the demand for this internet content is emanating from men.

    Ever wondered why female paedophiles didn’t flock to that fake profile? They usually don’t have to because they already have or can more easily gain access to real children, like these: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/breaking-a-female-paedophile-ring/episode-guide and these: http://crime.about.com/od/sex/ig/female_pedophiles/index.01.htm

    From BBC Newsmagazine:

    In 2005, the NSPCC raised concerns about how disbelief of female paedophiles was hindering detection. Its report said child protection professionals too often met allegations of abuse by females with incredulity, dismissing them as fabrication and allowing women to continue to offend.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8022861.stm

    Clearly marking those child protection professionals and your attitude of dismissal of female perpetrators as a problem.

    From Wikipedia on pedophilia:

    On the basis of a range of published reports, McConaghy estimates a 10 to 1 ratio of male-to-female child molesters[18]. It is believed that the true number of female pedophiles is underrepresented by available estimates, and that reasons for this may include a “societal tendency to dismiss the negative impact of sexual relationships between young boys and adult women, as well as women’s greater access to very young children who cannot report their abuse”[18], among other explanations

    18: Lisa J. Cohen, PhD and Igor Galynker, MD, PhD (2009-06-08). “Psychopathology and Personality Traits of Pedophiles”. Psychiatric Times. : http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/articles/psychopathology-and-personality-traits-pedophiles (accessible if Javascript is turned off in the browser).

  94. 94
    waywardsister

    @sirtooting

    I worked as a phone sex operator. What most men said first was ‘Hi’.

    Some callers were abusive – they were not the norm. Most were perfectly nice, others were just focused on the purpose of their call and got right to it (which makes sense, considering the per-minute cost). Some were rude; some were hilarious and fun. A surprising number just wanted to talk.

    Some callers were women. Not many, but some.

    Point being, quit using the availability of phone sex to make some sort of ridiculous point about male sexuality. Actually, you could quit making ridiculous points altogether. That would be like an early holiday gift to us all.

  95. 95
    summerblues

    Please stop yelling at each other for one day. Please.

  1. 96
    UK: NATSAL-3 and a bit of NISVS 2010 | Tamen's writings

    […] A hat-tip to Ally Fogg who made me aware of this survey in this blog post. […]

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