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How to lie with statistics, chapter whatever

Over the past few weeks a graph has been tweeted into my timeline several times, purporting to show that “Domestic Violence Crime has #climbed 31% since April 2010.”

DV_EvidenceUK

The tweet was originally sent by an account called “EvidenceUK” which declares ‘The purpose of this account is to factually correct the errors and lies peddled by Tory Newspapers & MPs during the 2015 General Election Campaign.’ The graph is sourced to the Crime Survey of England and Wales, and the figures on the graph are accurate. The only inaccuracy is the detail of the tweet. The first bar does not show the data from April 2010. They actually show the data from the year before.

An accurate graph for domestic violence since April 2010 would look like this. (Note, I have taken these stats from the precise same data set linked to from the original. They are the same data)

DVStats2

 

They show not a 31% rise in domestic violence incidents – but a 3.3% fall in domestic violence since the Tory / coalition government came to power.

Now as regular readers will know, I rarely miss an opportunity to have a swipe at the Tory party and the current government, but I do also care about honesty and accuracy in media and reporting. There is a widespread myth that domestic violence has been increasing significantly since the last election, and there is not a shred of evidence that it is true.

To get an accurate understanding of what is happening with rates of domestic violence in this country, take a look at the graph over the past 20 years – again, drawn from the precise same data set linked to in the tweet above.

DVstats

If you look closely you can see the historical low point of 2009-10, and a slight rise to the most recent quarterly update from July this year. However the long term trend is quite clear – domestic violence rates plummeted between the mid 90s and the mid 00s, and have been bobbing along fairly consistently ever since. Yes, they took a bit of a spike in the year to March 11, but immediately reverted the year after. In fact the ONS statisticians are quite clear that there has been no statistically significant change in the domestic violence figures, year on year, in more than a decade.

Someone looked at this whole data set to produce this graph, and must have known exactly what they were doing when they cherrypicked a statistical lowpoint to draw their comparisons. This type of statistical legerdemain is a source of constant annoyance and frustration, more so when it comes from people with whom I would like to be on board. There are plenty of reasons to despise the current government and plenty of genuine reasons to condemn their track record. Mischief like this simply makes me lose faith in those sharing the information, and that helps no one.

 

 

Comments

  1. says

    Ally, thanks for this post which I’ll link to on our blog. I’ve put appreciative links to a number of your recent pieces, and I understand I’m about to be thrown out of the Patriarchy as a result.

    The misuse of statistics to further feminist agendas has been going on for at least 40 years in the UK, and rarely does the mainstream media expose it (which is why it’s left to us to seek to do so) Feminists can make the most outrageous statements in the press, or in radio and TV interviews – often of the ‘1 in 3 women’ or ‘1 in 4 women’ variety – and are virtually never challenged. This goes on decade after decade, and the vast majority of British citizens have been brainwashed as a result.

    There’s an army of taxpayer-funded academics who see their very existence as promoting feminist agendas through ‘research’ which is demonstrably fraudulent. In his book ‘Why Britain Hates Men: Exposing Feminism’ Swayne O’Pie devotes 45 pages to this very subject.

  2. says

    The Crime Survey is the most reliable source of Domestic Violence statistics, and as these data sets clearly show, the incidence of Domestic Violence has fallen by 67% over the last 20 years. However, Chief Police officers and CPS meekly follow the feminist story line and throw increasing resources at it. What clearer evidence do we need that senior public officials, as well as politicians, dance to the tune of feminist myths?

  3. Ally Fogg says

    Everybody misuses statistics. Yes, some feminists consistently misrepresent statistical evidence on domestic violence and sexual crimes. So too do many MRAs. Please don’t make me start listing all the statistical and factual mistakes to be found on the Justice for Men and Boys website, I feel I’ve already done my tour of duty on that one.

    Left wingers abuse statistics to make political points, as we see above, so too do right wingers.

    Police and CPS misuse statistics to make problems look worse than they are when they are trying to lobby for more money. They misuse statistics in the opposite direction when they want to improve the look of their performance.

    As a wise person once observed, he problem is that most people use statistics as a drunk uses a lamp post – more for support than illumination.

  4. says

    Ally, thanks for the link to the BBC piece about the police’s misuse of data. I have no wish to revisit your comments on our website and consultation document, we’ve both done tours of duty on that one! But I should like to make the point that the mainstream media (especially the BBC) is far keener to expose right wingers’ abuse of statistics than left wingers’ abuse of statistics, particularly when it comes to outrageous claims made by feminists decade after decade. I’m reminded of a lengthy (16 minute) Newsnight piece on domestic violence, chaired by Kirsty Wauk, the huge backdrop images were of a female victim of DV, and the three participants were women who clearly didn’t give a DAMN about male victims of DV – hopefully this one link is OK?:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy8TxOQcWdU

    I think it was Swayne O’Pie who pointed out that he hadn’t read, seen, or heard even one robust critique of the damage wrought by gender feminism over the past 30+ years in the mainstream media. Nor have I, nor anyone I’ve put that point to. That’s a major element in the brainwashing I’m concerned about.

  5. Paul says

    Ally

    As you rightly point out statistics are misused by people pursuing all sorts of agendas and ideally people should think twice before taking them at face value.Addionally any narrative specifically about dv should include the experiences of men .women and children as victims rather than focusing primarily on women as victims which is what to often happens in this country.

    i agree with you that domestic violence rates have been fairly steady since arround 2005 .However i still have concerns at the levels of under-reporting of dv especially in religious and ethnic minority communities .I don’t know to what extent that’s likely to affect the overall picture of the problem but it’s clearly a factor that also need to be taken into consideration

  6. CitymanMichael says

    Yes, Yvette Cooper was on the Andrew Marr show this morning stating that DV, where women are the victims, has gone up under the Tories. Lots of people who watch that show have been further brainwashed. Fairly despicable coming from someone who would know the truth.

  7. says

    In that supposed hotbed of patriarchy, Saudi Arabia, DV has become a punishable offence for the first time… but only if the perpetrator is a man. We know that in the UK, at least, in 70% of cases of unidirectional DV – the victim either walks away, or just ‘takes it’ – the perpetrator is a woman. The cohort with the highest level of DV is lesbians, I’m not quite sure how the Patriarchy causes that, but I’m sure it does, somehow. And non-reporting of DV by men is at a much higher level than non-reporting by women. Indeed men often don’t even see being assaulted by their partners as DV, but as a socially acceptable way for angry women to vent their anger / frustration / whatever, and the men must be responsible for driving them to that point having provoked them through their actions and inactions. Which isn’t a narrative ever used to excuse male-on-female DV, with good reason.

  8. sirtooting . says

    @ Mike Buchanan
    The “Emeritus Professor” who gave the book such a glowing review on the cover has been dead this last two years. LOL

  9. says

    @ sirtooting (8)

    So what if he’s been dead for two years? He was very highly regarded. I’ve had numerous testimonials from professors – Emeritus and otherwise – for my books, should I remove them as and when THEY die? As a general rule, should we not place any value on what’s been said and/or written by people who have since died? I grant you in certain cases that would make sense, starting with Marx and Engels, obviously.

  10. sirtooting . says

    A summary of a debate
    The prop speaker was Tom Martin, a guy who is sueing LSE for their gender studies course which he accuses of being guilty of misandry.

    So I’ll give a quick summary of the debate.

    Summary:
    Prop speaker Martin cites a bunch of statistics which prove that feminists lie. He says that women earn more than men in full-time jobs.
    He says that women are 4x more sexist than men. He says that virtually no instances of date rape occur and that false rape allegations outnumber real instances of rape.

    He states that when looking at sex trafficked prostitutes, that 99% of them chose to be ‘sex slaves’.
    Martin says that ‘professional’ feminists propagate these lies that leads women to believe that they are being oppressed and that men are raping monsters.
    Martin talks about a ‘culture of acting like a victim’ within feminism. He says that feminists make up these lies to gain money from the media attention they receive.

    Tom Martin: I’m not saying rape isn’t a big problem, I’m against rape. But false rape allegations are very serious. And the dangers of date rape are overplayed.
    All the PSAs about minding your own drink and not getting into unlicensed taxi’s is unnecessary.

    Woman: I don’t understand how sex SLAVES voluntarily chose to be sex workers.
    Swayne O’Pie : Martin is right, 99% of women chose to be sex slaves. Some of them probably chose it because they’re drug addicts.

    How exactly did the feminist movement cause homelessness?

    Man: We haven’t talked about child custody and parental rights. The father nearly always looses custody of the child.
    Man: In the UK, the law is concerned with the primary caregiver of the child, regardless of gender. It just so happens that in the majority of cases, the primary caregiver of the child tends to be female.

    Man: I would like to distance myself from some of the men in this room who I think have been lying and twisting the lies and are guilty of misogyny.

    Man continues: Another example of the inappropriate behavior displayed in this debate.

  11. sirtooting . says

    O’Pie shouts out that people should read his book to find out the ‘truth’…he does this several times throughout the debate

    Man: I would like to distance myself from some of the men in this room who I think have been lying and twisting the lies and are guilty of misogyny.
    man (most likely O’Pie but I’m not sure) shouts from the crowd “I HOPE YOU GET LAID”

  12. John Austin says

    The really awful thing is that we will get a Labour government in 2015 with a Home Secretary who actually believes DV has gone up.
    So policy will be made on the back of lies.

  13. TMK says

    Hm, so dv was dropping until the middle of the first decade?

    I guess something bad must have happened in the early 1980s.

    Oh wait, conservative government is indeed to blame, only not this one ;)

  14. sirtooting . says

    More

    Notable moments during the debate:

    – There is no male birth control because women want to control reproductive rights.
    – Prostitution and sex trafficking is the result of poor life choices.
    – Men can’t be blamed for catcalling or chasing after women because (and I quote) “Think how many sperm go after one egg. Think about it. That’s why men do it. We can’t be blamed for that. It’s biology”.
    – Why is there no representation for men at universities and in politics? WHY IS THERE NOT A MEN’S OFFICER?!

    And then everyone went for drinks afterwards and a student had the delight of overhearing a conversation between him and a bunch of male students about false rape accusations… so of course she joined in.

    Student: You are aware that statistically the rate of false rape accusations is less than 2%?

    Swayne O’Pie: Women can go to the police and falsely accuse any one of us *sweeps hand around table* of rape and we would be punished for it.

    (This is similar to someone who is determined to focus on the people who are falsely accused of robbery which is statistically 2% whilst ignoring the fact that 98% of those accused are actually are guilty?.. but one must get there priorities in order .. Mr O’pie is not concerned that most rapists are never convicted)

    Student… are you aware of the disgustingly low conviction rates in rape cases? There are women who have been raped, DNA evidence has been obtained yet their rapist has walked free… There were 85 000 women in the UK last year who were raped or sexually assaulted. Less than 2000 of those resulted in a conviction… and out of all of those there were less than 50 false accusations.

    Mr Opie doesn’t care for women, he could careless.. he cares men are accused of crimes they are guilty of.
    98% are guilty, less than 10% are convicted and 2% are innocent and Mr Opie wants us to focus all our attention on the 2% who are innocent and he claims the majority of men are innocent and women are liars and lets keep on casting doubt on women until no men are convicted of any crimes women accuse them of.

  15. says

    As someone who was present both at the UCL debate at which Tom Martin presented, and the later event – which was most certainly not a ‘drinks’ event – I believe your comment libels Swayne O’Pie, and I hope he presses charges. I’ve just emailed him asking him to contact me on the matter.

    The assertions concerning rape statistics are ridiculous. How could anyone possibly know what the rate of false rape allegations is? What incentive is there for a woman to admit having made a false rape allegation, unless the contrary evidence is conclusive (e.g. the alleged rapist was demonstrably not in her vicinity at the time)?

  16. sirtooting . says

    What incentive is there for a rapist to admit his guilt,? No can’t think of one..
    Ian Huntley was accused by 9 different young girls of sexual assault and he was never convicted once. The young girls words were doubted, which is exactly what you and O’pie are set on doing, casting doubt on those who are raped and sexually abused.
    I noticed that in your booklet regarding where young boys, have stated they were sexually assaulted and abused, & most of their abusers were male.
    Hey perhaps they were lying about how they were sexually abused, and they are just making false rape allegations because they regret having sex..
    Regarding Ian Huntley, on the 10th occassion, the girls didn’t need to speak, and everyone believed them then, but then the evidence was overwhelming when they were lying dead in a ditch ..

  17. sirtooting . says

    http://socandcrimatkeele.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/against-new-authoritarianism.html

    “I believe your comment libels Swayne O’Pie, and I hope he presses charges. I’ve just emailed him asking him to contact me on the matter”.

    Really .. puh. I am shaking in my boots .. lol .. poor Tommy lost his case didn’t he, but then he didn’t have a case either

    Woman: I don’t understand how sex SLAVES voluntarily chose to be sex workers.
    Swayne O’Pie : Martin is right, 99% of women chose to be sex slaves. Some of them probably chose it because they’re drug addicts.

    Who the fck believes that?
    Logic not his strong point is it .. LMAO

  18. Ally Fogg says

    I’m fairly confident that the comment at 15 is not libellous, As a published author and public speaker, Swayne O’Pie is subject to interpretation and critique which might include speculation as to his motivations and beliefs.

    However if Swayne O’Pie wishes to contact me by any means and tell me that any specific allegations written about him in comments here are untrue in matter of fact, I’m more than happy to delete them on request as a courtesy, as I would with any individual.

  19. says

    @sirtooting 15

    Your analysis of rape statistics is quite ridiculous. Swayne O’Pie covers the issue at considerable length in his book, as have others. In our blog we’ve covered plenty of cases of false rape allegations. Innocent men’s lives are being ruined at the whim of vindictive women, due to the lack of anonymity for rape suspects. We’ve reported cases where even after obtaining concrete proof women made false rape allegations, they got only a police caution, if that. One woman was found guilty of making false sex allegations against nine men over a period of time before she was charged, and she received only a short jail sentence. Whilst in opposition David Cameron committed to bringing back this anonymity but predictably, once in office, he reneged on the commitment.

    You write, “Student… are you aware of the disgustingly low conviction rates in rape cases? There are women who have been raped, DNA evidence has been obtained yet their rapist has walked free…” How is DNA evidence proof of rape, as opposed to sexual activity? Women are being taught that if they regret a sexual encounter for any reason, it was rape. Very often because they’d been drinking alcohol, and of course women must bear no personal responsibility for their freely-made decisions. Let’s do a gender switch, shall we? Often illuminating. If a man drinks alcohol then has sex with a sober woman, has she raped him? If they’ve both been drinking alcohol, have they raped each other?

  20. sirtooting . says

    “In our blog we’ve covered plenty of cases of false rape allegations.”
    Do you also cover in your blog, rapists who are claiming they are falsely innocent

    In your booklet you have boys, telling us they have been sexually assaulted and abused,
    & most of their abusers were male,.. Surprise! Surprise!

    We have heard the stories in the press where boys have been sexually abused by priests, and that was highly publicised but what wasn’t highly publicised at the same time was, there were as many girls as boys who had been abused..

    Why is it boys are to be believed where girls aren’t?

    Hey maybe the boys are lying about being sexually abused, and they are just making false rape allegations because they regret having sex, they must be, according to your rules?

    “Women are being taught that if they regret a sexual encounter for any reason, it was rape”
    This is another one of those Warren Farrell’s ideas, being trundled around the internet

    Mr Farrell holds the view that, women’s experience of rape, is exactly the same as that of their rapists, (which is a positive experience, according to Mr Farrell) and women crying rape is just remorse

    Warren Farrell & you & O’pie can’t have it both ways ..
    By this idea no one can be raped, your boys weren’t raped, .. Their experience of rape, is exactly the same as that of their rapists, (which is a positive experience, so says Mr Farrell) and your boys crying rape is just crocodile tears..

    Warren Farrell .. what does he have to say about rape ..he says men enjoy raping, so those that are raped by them MUST experience the same exhilaration as the rapists, and there can be no other explanation for alleging rape other than remorse ..Voila.. Elementary my dear Watson! .. What other reason could there be, according to Mr Farrell & his buddies who try their damnedest to dismiss the effects of rape ..

    You Quoting Warren Farrell virtually verbatim ..
    YOU ~ “Women are being taught that if they regret a sexual encounter for any reason, it was rape”
    HIS ~ Farrell. “The average incest participant can’t evaluate his or her experience for what it was. As soon as society gets into the picture, they have to tell themselves it was bad. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy “
    ME ..~ Children aged, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.. Can’t evaluate his or her experience for what it was, Farrell says .. Oh yes they can .. Ask the young boys and girls molested by priests.

    Women must enjoy being raped apparently.., must they? it can be the only conclusion according to these Mra’s ..
    Well, why would they imagine that is the only conclusion one can consider? .. do they have tunnel vision or something, are they that ignorant and dumb..?

    These Mra’s interests lie in defending men who are rapists, their interests lie in keeping those men free from prosecution, their interests lie, in preventing women getting justice, their interests lie, in preventing women from pointing their fingers at men, their interests lie in creating doubt in the woman’s word, over the man’s.

    Why is it boys are to be believed where girls aren’t?

    The interests of these Mra’s are not to seek justice for everyone, but to deny justice to anyone who isn’t male.

    Warren Farrell, believes girls enjoy being molested by their fathers and has stated they are lying when they say they do not.
    How does this affect what he has to say about date rape and spousal rape, when with a biased mind he states young girls are not victims of sexual abuse because he doesn’t accept they are being abused?

    One of the leading voices of the Mra’s is a paedophile and these Mra’s are falling over themselves to promote his beliefs..

  21. sirtooting . says

    oops ..Do you also cover in your blog, rapists who are claiming they are falsely innocent.

    Correction ~ Do you also cover in your blog, rapists who are falsely claiming they are innocent? Do ya?.

  22. says

    @ sirtooting (21)

    When resort to misrepresenting what MRAs say and write, as you have from the outset in this comment stream, it’s you who has the problem, not us. Decade after decade feminists have lied about rape and domestic violence, using them as political weapons. This has been exhaustively proven by Swayne O’Pie and others. Of course rape is a heinous crime, whether committed on males or females, and whether committed by males or females. But it’s a rare crime (stranger rape particularly so). The whole point of lying about statistics on rape and DV is to make women unduly fearful of men, and accordingly hateful of men as a group. That’s why rape and DV are the two key ‘go to’ political weapons for feminists, even though their lies and misrepresentations have been exposed for decades.

    You write:

    “In your booklet you have boys, telling us they have been sexually assaulted and abused, & most of their abusers were male,.. Surprise! Surprise!”

    What booklet is this? Certainly not anything I’m associated with.

    You end with:

    “One of the leading voices of the Mra’s is a paedophile and these Mra’s are falling over themselves to promote his beliefs.”

    You appear to be calling Warren Farrell a paedophile. Is that correct? If so, I invite you to publish in this comment stream your name and address, and email address, so that he has the opportunity of bringing libel charges against you, should he so wish. If you don’t want to do that, feel free to email your details to me [email protected] and I’ll contact Warren. If you’re not prepared to publicly stand behind your outrageous statements and misrepresentations, I for one will no longer spend my time responding to any of your comments in this comment stream, or elsewhere.

  23. sirtooting . says

    Why is it boys are to be believed where girls aren’t? Hmm, Why?

    YOU.. QUOTING ~ Warren Farrell virtually verbatim ..
    This is the foundation of your beliefs, your evidence is this .. everything is reliant on this

    YOU ~ “Women are being taught that if they regret a sexual encounter for any reason, it was rape”

    HIM ~ Farrell. “The average incest participant can’t evaluate his or her experience for what it was. As soon as society gets into the picture, they have to tell themselves it was bad. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy “

    ME ..~ Children aged, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.. Can evaluate his or her own experiences for what they were .. Oh yes they can .. Ask the young boys and girls molested by priests.

    Why is it boys are to be believed where girls aren’t? Why? WHY?

    Women must enjoy being raped apparently.., must they? it can be the only conclusion according to these Mra’s ..
    Well, why would they imagine that is the only conclusion one can consider? .. Do they have tunnel vision or something, are they that ignorant and dumb..?

    These Mra’s interests lie in defending men who are rapists, their interests lie in keeping those men free from prosecution, their interests lie, in preventing women getting justice, their interests lie, in preventing women from pointing their fingers at men, their interests lie in creating doubt in the woman’s word, over the man’s.

    Mr Farrell is a paedophile, what he thought then, he still thinks now, he doesn’t believe females are raped, instead he believes they regret having sex & cry rape out of malice, which is an idea he perpetually promotes to all who will listen to him.
    It is apparent Farrell refused to accept the word of young girls who explained in great detail to him, how they were traumatized by their fathers sexual abuse in the 1970′s, and it is as plain as day he hasn’t shifted from that position in over 40 years, even in the face of the overwhelming evidence that proves that they are, psychologically devastated by this abuse.

    Fathers tended to express positive feelings about incest they perpetrate, but daughters gave more negatives responses.
    Farrell stated~ “Either men see these relationships differently, or I am getting selective reporting from women.”

    Farrell dismisses the woman’s word & her trauma as selective reporting and he suggests she selects to not think positively about being raped instead, she chooses out of malice to not agree her experience of rape is the same as the one who raped her..

    This is the current thinking of Mr Farrell, Just as Mr Farrell does not acknowledge women’s experience of rape is totally different to that of the rapist, you in turn do not acknowledge Mr Farrell is a paedophile, and yet he has fully admitted he is.

    Farrell ~“Either men see these relationships differently, or I am getting selective reporting from women.”
    Or perhaps Mr Farrell you are selectively ignoring who it is who is perpetrating crimes against their children in order to realise their own sexual fantasies and you can’t believe those sexual fantasies are psychologically devastating to those who they are exacted on?

    “Second, I’m finding that thousands of people in therapy for incest are being told, in essence , that their lives have been ruined by incest. In fact, their lives have not generally been affected as much by the incest as by the overall atmosphere. My book should help therapists put incest in perspective.” [He's a psychologist? No. Farrell''s Ph.D. is in political science]

    Farrell also hopes to change public attitudes so that participants in incest will no longer be automatically perceived as victims.

    If pushed to the wall, would Farrell urge incest on families? “Incest is like a magnifying glass,” he summarizes. “In some circumstances it magnifies the beauty of the relationship.”

    He is in favour of sex with children, does that make him a paedophile? .. You can bet your bippy it does..

  24. sirtooting . says

    Bring on the libel charges, bring them on man LMAO .. Hahahaheeheehoohoohahaheeheehoohoo..

    Farrell was interviewed in the 1970’s by Penthouse magazine, and stated all these things and much more to the interviewer, and he has confirmed what was written in that interview and published was a true account of what he said.
    You can find the said article on the internet on a particular website, and Farrell has threatened the owners of that website with libel, if they do not remove the details of the interview, and you know what there reply was? GO ON THEN MR FARRELL .. We implore you to do that very thing ..
    His book never got published. No… 23 publishing companies told him to sling his hook.
    .

    Bring on that libel trial, I’m sure Mr Farrell will be highly delighted with the publicity a Libel trial like that will afford him .. LMAO

  25. CitymanMichael says

    I regard myself as an MRA. I absolutely do not condone rape – no matter the sex of the perpetrator or the sex of the victim.
    However, I am aware that there are numbers of false accusations of rape against perfectly innocent men – am I wrong to say so. Am I wrong to bring this to light.
    I also do not understand why simply debating these issues means in some peoples eyes that I am a “rape apologist”.
    I have also read some of Warren Farrell’s work and viewed a lot of his talks on YouTube & cannot find anywhere that he has condoned rape, nor can I believe that from the tone and ethos of his arguments.

  26. sirtooting . says

    You are all frauds.. and when you can’t hide it or defend it, you scarper .. Mr Buchanan has left the building..
    LMAO

  27. sirtooting . says

    “I have also read some of Warren Farrell’s work and viewed a lot of his talks on YouTube & cannot find anywhere that he has condoned rape, nor can I believe that from the tone and ethos of his arguments.”

    So what is this?
    Fathers who are fcking their daughters.. what does Farrell have to say about them?
    Farrell “Fathers tended to express positive feelings about incest they perpetrate, but daughters gave more negatives responses.
    Farrell stated~ “Either men see these relationships differently, or I am getting selective reporting from women.”

  28. says

    @ sirtooting (27)

    I haven’t left the building. See if you can understand what I said at the end of comment #23. Take it slowly, now:

    “If you’re not prepared to publicly stand behind your outrageous statements and misrepresentations, I for one will no longer spend my time responding to any of your comments in this comment stream, or elsewhere.”

    If you had the courage of your convictions you’d reveal your identity. You’re a spineless libeller of MHRAs, nothing more.

    Goodbye.

  29. sirtooting . says

    You are a fraudster, so is Mr Farrell, so is Karen Straughan, and all the rest of you.

    You quote Mr Farrell’s ideas and words virtually verbatim.. don’t you? .. but of course when you quote it and say it and say his words are true, … then those words & ideas shouldn’t back fire on you .. but as we will see, they do back fire on you .. and you have no where to go

    YOU.. QUOTING ~ Warren Farrell virtually verbatim ..
    This is the foundation of your beliefs, your evidence is this .. everything is reliant on this

    YOU ~ “Women are being taught that if they regret a sexual encounter for any reason, it was rape”

    HIM ~ Farrell. “The average incest participant can’t evaluate his or her experience for what it was. As soon as society gets into the picture, they have to tell themselves it was bad. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy “ WHAT?

    ME ..~ Children aged, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.. Can evaluate his or her own experiences for what they are .. Oh yes they can ..YES THEY CAN, OF COURSE THEY CAN .. What LUNATIC would think otherwise?
    Ask the young boys and girls molested by priests, what there traumas were, what they felt

    Why is it boys are to be believed where girls aren’t? Why?

    Maybe you can explain that to us?
    We are supposed not to believe women who say they are raped but instead we must believe men who say they are not guilty of rape. Why?..

    Why is it boys are to be believed where girls aren’t? Why?

    If Mr Farrell wants to sue me, get him here.. hurry, I’m waiting ..

  30. Ally Fogg says

    sirtooting

    I couldn’t really give a shit about the fact you keep libelling Warren Farrell, but that doesn’t change the fact that you are libelling Warren Farrell.

    However I am becoming increasingly annoyed by your persistent off-topic snipings at MRAs who are not here, have no connection to the topic of conversation and persistently derail and detract from the debate at hand. More to the point, I suspect it is as cringingly boring for everyone else as it is for me.

    I’ve said it before, I will say it one final time. If you want to pick an argument with Warren Farrell and his friends, go find Warren Farrell and his friends. They are not exactly difficult to trace on the internet. I have officially indulged you long enough.

    Next time I won’t bother to explain, I’ll just delete your posts and block you.

  31. sirtooting . says

    Mr Buchanan @ No.20 told us his beliefs
    “Women are being taught that if they regret a sexual encounter for any reason, it was rape” and all I have done is responded, with the actual origin of that belief and who said it and why?

    It is very difficult to challenge someone’s beliefs, if you aren’t allowed to get to the core of their beliefs and why they believe what they do, but as you say, this blog is not for that, so i will desist right now.
    And just watching the most recent news, i see a loving father a Mr Brown has managed to achieve getting a new law passed regarding Domestic violence, called Clair’s law, and he named it, in memory of his daughter.

  32. TMK says

    Hah. Huge blockquote fail. I was trying to reply to your statement about the conversation of these two being utterly repulsing.

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