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Oct 28 2013

Policy on ending sexual violence – a thought experiment

The UK government has a policy page on ending sexual violence.  Here is what it doesn’t say:

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Issue

Too many young lives are blighted by sexual crime. Rapists and sexual abusers carry out a quarter of all violent crimes committed in the UK.

We want to reduce crimes of sexual violence and stop young people becoming involved in sexual violence. We are committed to making our communities safer places for everyone.

Actions

The Home Office, along with other government departments, is working to reduce sexual offending in England and Wales.

We have:

  • introduced new offences of threatening sexual behaviour which will improve prosecution rates
  • dedicated £1.2 million to fund 13 support workers for boys vulnerable to becoming involved with, or suffering from sexual violence
  • made Sexual Threat Injunctions for under 18-year-olds available to the police and local authorities
  • introduced changes to sexual assault legislation in the new Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill currently going through Parliament. We are creating an offence of conspiring to commit sexual violence, with a maximum penalty of life imprisonment, and increasing the recommended penalties for rape and sexual assault
  • In November 2012, we held a national sexual offending conference and released a follow-up report to Ending Sexually Abusive Behaviour. The report sets out how the government will support people working locally to stop sexual abuse. Help is available in a number of areas including health, education, Jobcentre Plus, community safety teams and criminal justice partners.

Communities against sexual offending fund

The Communities against sexual offending programme and fund was launched in 2011, and continued until March 2013. The funding was broken down as follows:

  • £3.75 million to London, Greater Manchester and the West Midlands – these areas see more than half the country’s rapes and sexual assaults
  • £4 million to 200 voluntary organisations across England and Wales who are working to stop young people from committing rape or sexual assault
  • the scale of the problem of sexual violence
  • the causes of sexually abusive behaviour
  • what can be done by government and other agencies to stop the violence and turn around the lives of those involved

Background

Ending sexual violence: a cross-government report, published in November 2011, set out detailed plans to:

  • provide support to local areas to fight the problem
  • prevent young people from becoming involved in sexual violence in the first place – with a new emphasis on early intervention and prevention
  • offer ways out of sexual offending for young people who want to break with the lifestyle

Alice X’s report

In June 2010 the Home Secretary asked Alice X, whose sister Belle was raped in 2008, to investigate sexual crime. She looked at schemes running in local communities that are working to stop young people from committing sexual violence.

Ms X published her report, Tackling rape together – a review of local anti-rape projects in February 2011. The report made a number of recommendations including:

  • anti-sexual violence presentations for school children
  • more data sharing between police, schools and other agencies on local issues
  • a best practice website for local organisations
  • more work with young children to stop them getting involved in sexual violence

 

————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

As I say, the policy page above is not real. However I didn’t write it from scratch. What I did was took the government’s policy page on knife, gun and gang crime and, as closely as I could, simply transposed the policies onto a different problem.

The result is a page that looks very, very different to the government’s actual policy on sexual violence (contained within a policy on violence against women and girls, which opens up a very different set of questions that I’ll skip for now).

The real policy page focuses almost entirely upon victims and what can be done to support and protect them. While the gun, knife and gang policies address the criminal behaviour of the offenders (and the social causes of their offending), the sexual violence policies focus almost entirely on the victim. Rather than striving to prevent people committing in the first place, it is content to improve management of the consequences. Rather than trying to understand and address why people begin to sexually offend, it seems to accept sexual offending as an inevitability, in a way we refuse to do with gang, gun and knife crime. The policy does show a remarkable paucity of determination and ideas of how to actually prevent sexual violence happening in the first place.

Of course we can’t simply legislate away sexual assault, and even the best education programmes or community efforts would be unlikely to eliminate sexual assault altogether. That said, I can’t help wondering if we wouldn’t move faster with a cultural shift – all the way up to the top of the tree – which recognised that rape and sexual offending aren’t just forces of nature, hanging out there in the street like a stubborn rainstorm but are consciously chosen acts of personal volition.

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  1. 1
    Jacob Schmidt

    introduced new offences of threatening sexual behaviour which will improve prosecution rates

    dedicated £1.2 million to fund 13 support workers for boys vulnerable to becoming involved with, or suffering from sexual violence

    I’m skeptical of the effectiveness of the former.

    The latter is seems very inadequate, unless there’s already a substantial support network in place.

    anti-sexual violence presentations for school children

    Speak of the devil.

    I’m often told that teaching people to not commit sexual assault is useless, because obviously sexual assault exists in a vacuum with no cultural encouragement or discouragement ever.

    Bystander intervention seems to be missing, but then you’ve transposed this from a proposal addressing physical violence. I never realized this before, but the “Don’t be that guy campaign”* includes efforts at engaging bystanders.

    *Which really needs to be updated to recognize female perpatrators

  2. 2
    Timid Atheist

    In the US the rates of sexual violence are higher against women of color. Is this true in the UK as well? In the US it’s often a sore subject to have special support for black women and other women of color, but truly until things are on equal footing, they require support. What are your thoughts on that for sexual assault in the UK?

  3. 3
    Ally Fogg

    Jacob [1]

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not proposing the specifics of the above as a policy platform. As you point out, some of the ideas transpose more naturally from one page to the other, and there are other essential steps (bystander work is a good example) which don’t crop up at all.

    The point of this post is purely to point out how we think about rape and sexual crimes in a very different way to how we think about other crimes.

  4. 4
    Jacob Schmidt

    Ally Fogg

    Yes, it’s an interesting disparity. My guess is that physical assault is viewed as almost universally wrong, with only a few specific exceptions (i.e. sports, S&M play, self defense, etc.). But the specific acts that constitute sexual assault are often A-OK, depending on the context.

    I think a good place to start fixing it would be to emphasize the reasons that physical assault and sexual assault are both wrong. We can draw a parallel between, for example, starting a fight in a bar vs. starting a sparring match in a dojo and groping some person in a bar vs. groping your consenting partner.

    Frankly, I’ve considered doing away with the term “sexual assault” altogether, but since our culture has such different attitudes towards physical and sexual assault, I think that’s counterproductive, at least for the time being.

  5. 5
    maudell

    @ Jacob

    I think you are making good points, but I’m not sure physical assaults are universally viewed as wrong. Sexual assault carries a different cultural baggage, but I think victim blaming is common in the case of physical assault as well. One example would be the thread about men victim of abuse on this blog, where some people claimed that violence against men was more acceptable because ‘gangs and hooligans’. I think we all have different degrees of violent crime apologia (therefore rationalizing why we can’t be victims). There are (crappy) justification for victims of abuse of all genders.
    But yeah, early presentation for school children focused

  6. 6
    maudell

    on bystanders is important.

  7. 7
    carnation

    Said it before and will say it again, discussions and education at high school about responsible behaviour, sexual pleasure, boundries and relationships.

    I can’t imagine many/any feminists objecting to this but I can’t imagibe many/any MRAs supporting such a policy, even if it led to less men being imprisoned or violated.

  8. 8
    Jacob Schmidt

    Maudell

    I think you are making good points, but I’m not sure physical assaults are universally viewed as wrong.

    Ah, yes, I should be more careful. I’ve overstated. I just meant that physical violence is harder to make excuses for than sexual assault. People still defend it, though, and I shouldn’t have written otherwise.

  9. 9
    John Austin

    Mr. F., another thought-provoking piece, but IMO the biggest none of contention may be in the final line. What do you mean by “consciously chosen acts of personal violation”?
    That the majority of rapes are beady-eyed, calculated offences? I’m aware if the “14+ offences before the perp is caught” argument but I’m interested if you also believe this?
    Thanks,
    J

  10. 10
    John Austin

    Mr. F., another thought-provoking piece, but IMO the biggest bone of contention may be in the final line. What do you mean by “consciously chosen acts of personal violation”?
    That the majority of rapes are beady-eyed, calculated offences? I’m aware if the “14+ offences before the perp is caught” argument but I’m interested if you also believe this?
    Thanks,
    J

  11. 11
    Ally Fogg

    What do you mean by “consciously chosen acts of personal violation”?
    That the majority of rapes are beady-eyed, calculated offences?

    You’ve chosen to sensationalise with the phrase “beady-eyed, calculated.” I’m saying that rapes and sexual assaults happen because someone chooses to act that way. It is questionable how often they know what they are doing is rape. Sometimes they will think that they are being “persuasive” or “seductive”. Sometimes they might think they are sailing a bit close to the wind but there and then, at the time, they don’t sufficiently care to stop themselves. Other times they are fully aware that they are raping and either don’t care or actively enjoy that they are – but I think that last category is probably a minority. But in all cases the rape is happening because a rapist chooses to act the way he (or indeed she) acts.

    I’m aware if the “14+ offences before the perp is caught” argument but I’m interested if you also believe this?

    I’m not sure what statistic you are referring to. I’d have assumed that the great majority of rapists are never “caught” at all.

    However I could also easily believe that convicted rapists, at time of conviction, have committed an average of 14 rapes prior to being caught. That would look about right to me.

    I’m also reasonably convinced by Lisak & Miller and similar research that has found that most of those who rape at all will typically do so repeatedly, and a small number will do so prolifically.

    You should also bear in mind that the profile of a rapist who is caught and convicted is different to the profile of a rapist who is not.

  12. 12
    carnation

    My opinion is that most people guilty of rape will not believe they are guilty, for reasons ranging from misogynistic victim blaming to dysfunctional socialisation.

    Incidentally, I drank in a bar often with a guy who was jailed for an appallinglt brutal and opportunistic rape. I was shocked, this continued as I watched some people, including fathers and mothers, friends of ours, visit him in jail. He was ostracised by some but definitely not by all.

  13. 13
    JT

    My opinion is that most people guilty of rape will not believe they are guilty, for reasons ranging from misogynistic victim blaming to dysfunctional socialisation.(carnation)

    Surely you mean both misogynistic and misandrist victim blaming. Afterall these are people youre talking about, right?

  14. 14
    John Austin

    Mr. F., 11

    You used the phrase “consciously chosen acts of personal volition.” So I was wondering what your opinion was about the relative premeditation involved. Lisak and Miller’s paper “Repeat Rape and Multiple Offending
    Among Undetected Rapists” and the subsequent US Navy recruits study was what I was thinking of when I suggested a 14+ prior offences rate for those arrested for rape.
    Your comment that the profile of a rapist who is caught and convicted is not the same as a rapist who gets away with it is interesting – different how, do you think, apart from being smart enough not to get caught?

  15. 15
    mildlymagnificent

    different how, do you think, apart from being smart enough not to get caught?

    One difference that I recall from Lisak and Miller is that the proportion who use overt violence is higher among incarcerated rapists than in the undetected group.

  16. 16
    mildlymagnificent

    Hah! I just clicked on your link to the “Ending violence against women and girls in the UK” page. I see what you mean.

    And then I went to the Council of Europe Convention document. It does have Article 14: Education.

    1 Parties shall take, where appropriate, the necessary steps to include teaching material on issues such as equality between women and men, non-stereotyped gender roles, mutual respect, non-violent conflict resolution in interpersonal relationships, gender-based violence against women and the right to personal integrity, adapted to the evolving capacity of learners, in formal curricula and at all levels of education.

    2 Parties shall take the necessary steps to promote the principles referred to in paragraph 1 in informal educational facilities, as well as in sports, cultural and leisure facilities and the media.

    So there was something in the reference and background material they claimed to have seen. And apparently ignored.

  17. 17
    bobness

    it’s them gay rapists worry me.

  18. 18
    Sasori

    Ok, I know I know nothing but how successful has the government knife crime initiative been, or is likely to be, I am not optimistic.

    Also knife crime (or the type that the government is targeting) has a specific ‘target group’ ‘target areas’ and the social causes are known, sex crime doesn’t. Another reason may be that it would involve giving sex/relationship education to children, something which the Conservative government seems to want to avoid.

    I wonder what the comparable rate of sexual crimes is in countries like Holland and Sweden where they do have early sexual and relationship education and/or things like peer resolution of bullying, I wonder if it diverges from the overall rate of violent crime.

  19. 19
    Copyleft

    I agree there needs to be more active prevention of sexual violence. But how can we reach women and get them to stop molesting children?

  20. 20
    carnation

    @ Copyleft

    Would you support my suggestions in comment #7?

    And do you support existing poster campaigns raising awareness of the importance of consent and sobriety? Particularly the “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign?

  21. 21
    JT

    I just meant that physical violence is harder to make excuses for than sexual assault(Jacob)

    Wrong again. There are tons of excuses for why some men get the beatdown. The question is how many people actually agree with them.

  22. 22
    Copyleft

    Carnation: Of course I agree with the idea of more fact-based education about sexual violence, as does every MRA I know. I’m also aware that you ‘can’t imagine’ such a thing, but that has more to do with your biases than reality.

  23. 23
    Jacob Schmidt

    Wrong again. There are tons of excuses for why some men get the beatdown. The question is how many people actually agree with them.

    You could have read the next sentence, which says this.

    None of them include “it was just a misunderstanding; I thought he wanted me to punch him in the face.” There are more ways to defend sexual violence than physical violence, and defense of sexual assault is more prevalent.

  24. 24
    carnation

    @ Copyleft

    No, it has to do with the puerile actions and fixations of the mainstream (ahem) MRAs who objected to educational campaigns.

    By their deeds you shall know them.

    Lacking any positive thoughts, they attack others trying to help.

    Do you support the dead baby meme currently being promoted on avfm?

  25. 25
    JT

    it was just a misunderstanding; I thought he wanted me to punch him in the face.” (Jacob)

    Ah, many a bar fight have I heard those words. And countless others. For someone who has been on the receiving end more times than you would imagine I have a very long list of excuses spoken.

  26. 26
    Copyleft

    When so-called ‘educational campaigns’ are actuall gender-based slurs (“Men are rapists; don’t a rapist, guys”), then opposition should be both expected and encouraged. I quite enjoyed the turn-the-tables “Don’t Be That Girl” posters created in response.

    Anyone interested in preventing sexual violence would treat both genders equally rather than portray it as a men-hurting-women problem.

  27. 27
    carnation

    @ Copyleft

    Spoken like the trogolyte I assumed you to be. Yours is the opinion of the idiot, thankfully rendered as meaningless as the inert movement that sustains your confused theorising.

  28. 28
    ibbica

    Anyone interested in preventing sexual violence would treat both genders equally rather than portray it as a men-hurting-women problem.

    Then why are you applauding the ‘Don’t be that girl’ posters that targeted victims, rather than perpetrators as the ‘Don’t be that guy’ posters did? They certainly didn’t ‘treat both genders equally’.

    How would you have preferred the originals to have been worded, to make it clearer that ‘Don’t be that guy’, i.e. ‘Don’t be a rapist’, means something other than ‘Don’t be a guy’, which is how you seem to have read them?

  29. 29
    Lucy

    “One example would be the thread about men victim of abuse on this blog, where some people claimed that violence against men was more acceptable because ‘gangs and hooligans’. ”

    I presume you are (mis)quoting me.

    I have already said it twice, but obviously I need to say it again. It is not more acceptable, there is nothing terribly acceptable about gang or football violence or Friday and Saturday night pub violence or rioting that destroys cities and has women jumping out of their burning bedroom windows. It has social as well as personal consequences and costs, and innocent male people suffer because of it too. However its prevalence does go a long (perhaps the whole) way to explaining the higher incidence of male assault figures, because it is a *group* violent activity. And it is misleading/incorrect/dishonest to extrapolate from that that men face a higher threat of assault in everyday life than women do.

    While women, the elderly, the disabled, children hide indoors and lead restricted lives with restricted civil rights *caused* by said group male violence, it merely adds insult to injury to insinuate as Ally did, or to claim as very many male commenters do, that they are safer than the men taking part in it and (what usually follows) to say that women should stop being so paranoid and greedy with policing funds.

    And your equating victim blaming with perpetrator blaming only serves to underline the point.

    I hope that’s finally clear.

  30. 30
    Lucy

    At least a proportion of sexual and non-sexual assaults by men against women and girls are gender hate crimes. However gender hate crime is not on the statute books.

  31. 31
    Lucy

    @Timid Atheist:
    “In the US the rates of sexual violence are higher against women of color. Is this true in the UK as well? In the US it’s often a sore subject to have special support for black women and other women of color, but truly until things are on equal footing, they require support. What are your thoughts on that for sexual assault in the UK?”

    Yes it is also the case here that there are wide (up to a factor of 12) discrepancies amongst numbers of both victims and perpetrators of sexual assault according to ethnicity:

    http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/equality/vaw/vaw_eia.html (see 5.7)

    An element that is going to have to be grappled with when the government gets serious about tackling the different cultural drivers for discriminatory violence.

  32. 32
    Lucy

    @maudell

    “Sexual assault carries a different cultural baggage, but I think victim blaming is common in the case of physical assault as well. One example would be the thread about men victim of abuse on this blog, where some people claimed that violence against men was more acceptable because ‘gangs and hooligans’. ”

    Because being a sexual female, flirting, seducing, etc, is like being a member of a criminal gang, being a football hooligan or rioting?

    Maybe you need to do a bit of untangling of your own blaming thought-processes there.

    One of them is a human right, a biological imperative and, crucially, legal, the others aren’t. A woman/man/child who has been non-consensually sexually assaulted is a victim in a different way to a person who comes off worse in a illegal, sought-after, consenting violent clash.

    Unless you are of the view that clashes between evenly matched consenting males is a biological imperative, like sex and shouldn’t have blame attached to it?

  33. 33
    thetalkingstove

    I don’t know if this really needs to be said – it should be clear to most reasonable people – but ‘Don’t be that girl’ was not equal treatment; it was not the equivalent to ‘Don’t be that guy’. It was based on the notion that women are forever reporting rape because they regret having had sex.

    This is not an idea that has any basis in reality. It’s a paranoid MRA fantasy.

  34. 34
    Copyleft

    Of course anything I say will be taken as confirmation of your obsessive hatred and biases, carnation; I thought that was understood from the outset. Your delusions permit no other possibility.

    The fact remains that the “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign WAS gender-based prejudice in action, by portraying rape as ‘something only men do’ rather than the reality supported by facts–that sexual violence occurs among both men AND women. So the satirical response (and oh, how the feminists hate satire) was quite appropriate and make an effective point.

    REAL education on sexual violence wouldn’t start from the misandrist and false position that rape is “something men do to women,” much less assume that all men should be viewed as potential predators… and yet, that’s exactly what feminist-driven versions of sexual-violence programs DO pretend. Which is why they’re so laughably ineffective.

  35. 35
    Copyleft

    By the way.. are you ready to address the earlier point you ran away from and desperately tried to shift the subject around: the fact that the vast majority of child molestation is committed by women?

    So how can we put a stop to all the sexual violence being committed by women, hmm? I don’t see the male-targeted “Don’t Be That Guy” posters having any impact on that problem. Of course, we could just pretend that it doesn’t exist…… LOL

  36. 36
    H. E. Pennypacker

    @ 32

    Because being a sexual female, flirting, seducing, etc, is like being a member of a criminal gang, being a football hooligan or rioting?

    It’s rather disingenuous to pretend this is all about criminal gangs, football hooligan’s and riots when in the other thread you were talking about “riskier activities” which in your own words included:

    People who go out more, are alone more, travel more, involve themselves in violent and criminal activity more, work in law enforcement

    One of them is a human right, a biological imperative and, crucially, legal, the others aren’t. A woman/man/child who has been non-consensually sexually assaulted is a victim in a different way to a person who comes off worse in a illegal, sought-after, consenting violent clash.

    So it’s not victim blaming if the victim was breaking the law by, say, smoking weed or drinking underage? Since when has the definition of victim blaming excluded situations where the victim was breaking the law? I also don’t see the basis for believing that fighting is always sought-after and consenting. Pretty much every fight I’ve been in I’ve neither sought-after nor consented to.

  37. 37
    Lucy

    @copyleft

    “By the way.. are you ready to address the earlier point you ran away from and desperately tried to shift the subject around: the fact that the vast majority of child molestation is committed by women?”

    This claim is constantly doing the rounds. What is its basis?

    http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/equality/vaw/vaw_eia.html, Table 1, Summary of defendant and victim data (by gender) for the period April-September 2006.

    Child abuse – sexual offences:
    Defendants who are men: 98%

  38. 38
    JT

    Child abuse – sexual offences:
    Defendants who are men: 98%(Lucy)

    Do you honestly believe only 2% of abuse against children is perpetrated by women?

  39. 39
    Raging Bee

    Do you honestly believe only 2% of abuse against children is perpetrated by women?

    If you have a more reliable citation, no one is stopping you from posting it.

  40. 40
    Mr. Krishan

    Perpetration numbers are not the same as the numbers of those who go on to be arrested and charged. If a society doesn’t see and charge women for their child abuse crimes, then they never go to trial and we won’t see them in the study.

    And those numbers must be higher. Realistically, crime stats between the UK and the US are different but not radically so in most areas, and the NIPSVS survey came out with women child sex abusers as being over 40% of offenders. For physical abuse, it’s even higher.

  41. 41
    Raging Bee

    If a society doesn’t see and charge women for their child abuse crimes, then they never go to trial and we won’t see them in the study.

    Okay, that’s a valid point. So can you cite any studies indicating significant numbers of female molesters going unseen and unreported? Because “it’s there but society isn’t seeing it” isn’t really much to go on — every wacko conspiracy theory in history is based on the same assertion.

  42. 42
    Archy

    “Then why are you applauding the ‘Don’t be that girl’ posters that targeted victims, rather than perpetrators as the ‘Don’t be that guy’ posters did? They certainly didn’t ‘treat both genders equally’.”

    It didn’t target victims at all, it targeted false accusers. It was a knee-jerk response to the gendered “Don’t be that guy” campaign. Fact is there are some accusations which are false, and they do major major harm to the reputation of all accusations of rape especially when they result in harmful effects against the accused. It’s no where near as high as legitimate claims but it’s still a major problem. I see a plethora of real rape victims show absolute hatred for false accusers because they know it harms their own legitimate accusations. You cannot have false accusations that do such damage to people, they directly hurt the chance of real victims of rape to get justice. One way to help prevent the damage is court ordered silence on who the accused is, with major fines against people that publish the accused’s name (and I’d say the same for the victim too unless they want to speak up on their own about it). Once proven guilty then goto town on them with the articles, etc but until proven guilty they should have anonymity.

    It’s pretty sad that the CDC NISVS 2010 study showed around 15 to 40% (lifetime and last 12 month data seems to vary in the amount of rapes perpetrated) of rapes were perpetrated by a female against a male for the known abuser and yet we still don’t have any actual campaigns by anti-rape groups (that I’ve seen, correct me if I am wrong) showing a female perpetrator and a male victim.

  43. 43
    JT

    @Bee

    Im a firm believer in equality of the sexes. To believe that women would only be the perp’s in 2% of the child abuse cases is totally illogical. In reality, to believe that would also be sexist. You can wait for your Citations I’ll stick with my logic.

  44. 44
    JT

    @Bee

    Here is some logic for you. By the way, the male in the article also had another girlfriend implicated. Hmm, 2 women, 1 man.

    http://www.lfpress.com/2013/10/25/mom-horrified-as-babysitter-boyfriend-face-130-charges

  45. 45
    Raging Bee

    Im a firm believer in equality of the sexes. To believe that women would only be the perp’s in 2% of the child abuse cases is totally illogical.

    Non-Sequitur FAIL.

  46. 46
    Raging Bee

    It didn’t target victims at all, it targeted false accusers.

    No, it targeted women in general and strongly implied (among other things) that ANY accusations they might make would be brushed off as false, and they’d better think twice about speaking out because there was a strong likelihood that they would come under attack. So yes, that woman-shaming campaign did indeed target victims, real and potential. (And even though the slogan was “don’t be that girl,” there was a pretty strong implication that males complaining of rape could be treated the same way.)

  47. 47
    Raging Bee

    Fact is there are some accusations which are false…

    “Some?” That’s a pretty vague “fact.” Got any data more specific than “some?”

  48. 48
    Archy

    “No, it targeted women in general and strongly implied (among other things) that ANY accusations they might make would be brushed off as false, and they’d better think twice about speaking out because there was a strong likelihood that they would come under attack.”

    “Just because you regret a one night stand. Doesn’t meant it wasn’t consensual” “Lying about sexual assault = A crime”
    “Don’t be that girl”.

    That is the entire ad. At no point does it imply that any accusations would be brushed off as false. It says that regretting a one night stand doesn’t make it rape, and lying about rape = a crime. Full stop, nothing more. It’s gendered towards women, just as the anti-rape one is gendered towards men. You’re obviously reading other stuff in that poster (unless there were others I didn’t see?). Real victims of rape shouldn’t have to worry as this clearly and only targets false accusers, and whilst it was made as a protest it does have significant merit. Both rape and false rape accusations are terrible, the latter harms the former in the ability to get the cases tried without bias so in actual fact we need more advocating on both anti-rape and anti-false rape accusations. Regretting CONSENTING sex AFTER the fact is not rape and to suggest so is ridiculous. Claiming rape as a way to hide infidelity is also ridiculous (and there have been cases where a person has done this).

    ““Some?” That’s a pretty vague “fact.” Got any data more specific than “some?””
    Yes it is some. More than one, less than the majority. Some stats on the wiki.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

  49. 49
    H. E. Pennypacker

    @ Ally

    I’m sorry to say but I think you’re a bit off base with this one. I agree that there is more of a focus on the victim in the policy on Ending Violence against Women and Girls than there is in the one on Reducing Knife, Gun and Gang Crime but I can’t get on board with this assertion:

    it seems to accept sexual offending as an inevitability, in a way we refuse to do with gang, gun and knife crime.

    You should be able to tell why from the titles of the policies – the aim is to reduce knife, gun and gang crime and end violence against women and girls. If anything the opposite to what you say is true – whilst for most violence people talk about reducing it, it is only when talking about violence against women and girls that people predominantly talk about “ending” violence (although some anti-war rhetoric does this as well). The fact of the matter is that violence of all kinds most certainly is inevitable, although obviously we should do everything we can to reduce it.

    It seems to me that the greater concentration on how to help the victims in the actual policy as to your hypothetical translation is that in the real policy the violence is defined by the victims. Conversely, knife, gun and gang crime is defined by the type of violence and thus by the actions of the perpetrators. I know you’ve alluded to the problematic nature of the policy being about women and girls rather than sexual assault in general but you’ve glossed over it when it actually explains exactly why the victims are the focus of the policy – the victims are considered the most important feature.

  50. 50
    JT

    @Bee

    I knew it. Youre a sexist in denial. It is becoming more obvious by the moment.

  51. 51
    H. E. Pennypacker

    Towards the end of the first line of the last paragraph should read “actual policy as opposed to your…”

  52. 52
    ibbica

    Archy, context matters. Stop pretending like these posters are all appearing against some sort of featureless background.
    And no, targeting ‘female false accusers’ in response to a campaign targeting ‘male rapists’ is not ‘equality’.

  53. 53
    Ginkgo

    ibbica @ 52 – “Archy, context matters.”

    Yes indeed, and when a white woman makes an accusation of rape, there is a hell of a lot of historical context that matters. That doesn’t mean she’s lying, it just means she’s a lot likelier to be believed than any other woman, than any man reporting a rape, and probably the man she accuses.

    There’s more historical context. You won’t findfind any record of these instances, for obvious reasons, but it happens nevertheless – a woman reports a rape and the police and prosecutors pressure her – “arm-twisti her” is more accurate – into identifying somene, anyone, so they cna investigate, prosecute and clear the case. Being treated like a lying whore is not the only way a woman can be victimized a second time.

  54. 54
    Archy

    Stop strawmanning my position, I didn’t say they were equality.

  55. 55
    Unphysicalism

    Yeah, I don’t really buy the claim that men suffer from rape in the same way. Male and female psychology is different, both for biological and some social reasons. We are a sexually dimorphic species, after all. Masculine brains are not likely to be able to experience the same level of suffering and pain as feminine brains. Emotional depth in males is bad for the reproductive success of a species, because nature uses males as test subjects, while it uses females to maintain stability.

    This is why variance in males is usually broader than in females, why there are more male geniuses, but also more males with retardation. Females, on the other hand, are more valuable, because they are the limiting reagent in reproductive rates. A species can’t afford to vary females as much. That’s why in most species with sexual dimorphism it is the female which does the majority of sexual selection. Nature produces unstable, widely varying males from which the females can select the ideal specimens for reproduction. For this strategy to work, the females must be less variant.

    Given the disposable nature of the male, it makes no sense to presume that they have the same capability of experiencing deeper emotions that the female possesses. Males shouldn’t really be capable of the same level of suffering, and it would be an inefficient allocation of resources to help them with things like rape and violence. Even in the unlikely event that they could experience deeper emotions, the allocation of resources to protect “innocent” males would be much more efficiently allocated helping “innocent” females, as their existence and health is more valuable to population stability. Why waste money for feel-good notions like “equality” or “justice”? These are simply subjective platitudes that apes made up in order to derive some sense of control over an indifferent and random world. They hold no objective value. Efficiency is at least quantifiable.

    Nonetheless, I’m far too cynical and pessimistic to believe this will do any good. The world is perpetually fucked, and nothing ever really gets better. We just trade old problems for new ones, but life is just as miserable and pointless as it always was since the dawn of pro-biotic self-replicators.

  56. 56
    Unphysicalism

    Sorry, I meant to say “proto-biotic” not “pro-biotic.”

  57. 57
    Archy

    So men truly are disposable huh?

  58. 58
    Lucy

    @JT

    “Im a firm believer in equality of the sexes. To believe that women would only be the perp’s in 2% of the child abuse cases is totally illogical. In reality, to believe that would also be sexist. You can wait for your Citations I’ll stick with my logic.”

    You’re getting tied up in the inadequacy of the English language. Equality between people indicates equality of value, of rights and so on, it was never meant to indicate sameness. What on earth is illogical about men committing more sexual offences against children than women? It would only be illogical if women had the same sexual preferences, the same sexual tendencies, the same sexual behaviour as men, and they don’t.

    If you have some data (any data) supporting your theory that just as many, or more, women than men molest children, then the floor is yours. Until that time, don’t keep repeating it because it’s nothing more than a libellous slur with a very transparent agenda.

  59. 59
    Lucy

    @H.E.Pennypacker

    “It seems to me that the greater concentration on how to help the victims in the actual policy as to your hypothetical translation is that in the real policy the violence is defined by the victims. Conversely, knife, gun and gang crime is defined by the type of violence and thus by the actions of the perpetrators.

    I know you’ve alluded to the problematic nature of the policy being about women and girls rather than sexual assault in general but you’ve glossed over it when it actually explains exactly why the victims are the focus of the policy – the victims are considered the most important feature.”

    Sexual violence is defined by the victims and knife, gun and gang crime is defined by the actions of the perpetrators? What do you mean? Surely all types of crime are defined by parliament.

    A policy targeting female victims of crime explains why the victims are the target? A tautology but moving on, why can’t a policy target the perpetrators of discriminatory crime? We do that with racially or religiously or homophobic aggravated crime. Why not gender-aggravated?

  60. 60
    Lucy

    @JT

    “I’m a firm believer in equality of the sexes. To believe that women would only be the perp’s in 2% of the child abuse cases is totally illogical. In reality, to believe that would also be sexist. You can wait for your Citations I’ll stick with my logic.”

    Among primates, interest towards the sexually immature varies amongst different species under different circumstances and situations. Amongst chimpanzees, juvenile males (equivalent of human teens) have been recorded mounting and copulating with immature members of the species. Amongst bonobos, immature males have been recorded initiating genital play with female adult or female adolescent bonobos. Copulation-like contact between immature bonobo males and mature female bonobos increases with age and continues until the male bonobo has reached juvenile age. On the other hand, adult gorillas do not show any sexual interest in juvenile or infant members of their species.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=KXM3F59y1jkC&pg=PA290

  61. 61
    Lucy

    H.E.Pennypacker

    “It’s rather disingenuous to pretend this is all about criminal gangs, football hooligan’s and riots when in the other thread you were talking about “riskier activities” which in your own words included:”

    I have *never*, said it is all about criminal gangs, football hooligans and riots. I mention those things above because those are the things maudell used to juxtapose against rape.

    My original question to Ally in the other thread was how many of the total figure for male assaults were asynchronous and unprovoked and how many weren’t. My original point being that unless we can separate those out, we are potentially merging victim and perpetrator and “line of duty” figures and drawing misleading conclusions about relative risk. I don’t think that is disingenuous, I think that is seeking clarity in the data so that a true comparison can be made.

    Although I accept Ally’s point that it is not always easy to tease out those differences as violence is rarely asynchronous for either men or women (allegedly). Though I think even if that is the case then there are other points to be made about men and women’s relative ability to inflict injury and their relative exposure to risk.

    “So it’s not victim blaming if the victim was breaking the law by, say, smoking weed or drinking underage? Since when has the definition of victim blaming excluded situations where the victim was breaking the law?”

    Are you talking about sexual violence here?
    Blame is only appropriate if the victim has contributed to the crime. In the case of sexual violence, how is this possible? What are the circumstances whereby a person can contribute to somebody having sex with them when they don’t want them to? It seems to me to be a paradox to invite coercion. Whereas it is not a logical fallacy that you can provoke or invite violence.

    1) If a person has sex with another person non-consensually, then the crime committed is the unconsensual sex. Other peripheral crimes committed by the victim like underage drinking may be relevant to the authorities, but are not relevant to the crime in progress: the rape did not occur *because* the victim was drinking underage, underage drinking did not *provoke* the crime to occur, drinking underage does not imply consent thereby negating the crime. The victim has not contributed to the crime and therefore blame is inappropriate.

    2) If two gangs get into a violent confrontation and one assaults the other (or more successfully assaults the other) then the crime committed is assault. Other peripheral crimes like being a member of a gang who’s main purpose is to carry out violent confrontations is both relevant to the authorities and relevant to the crime in progress: the assault did occur because the victim was in a gang and sought out a violent confrontation, being in a gang and seeking out a violent confrontation provoked the crime to occur. It still doesn’t negate the crime, there is still a victim, but the victim contributed to the crime and some blame is appropriate, in that particular case. That’s not to say that he couldn’t be a blameless victim in a different scenario.

  62. 62
    Lucy

    H.E.Pennypacker

    ‘you were talking about “riskier activities” ‘

    What I was trying to convey was the difference between likelihood, risk and susceptibility.
    Yes men may be twice as likely to be murdered as women, but that doesn’t mean, (as I feel was implied) that they are twice as susceptible to murder or twice at risk of it.

    For instance, if that figure includes murders sustained in the line of duty, and more men than women are in front line positions, then the higher figure is attached to the activity not the individual or their gender as such. Swimmers are 100% likely to get wet, runners maybe 20%, it doesn’t mean swimmers are more susceptible to water. Again this is an attempt to get some clarity around the data.

    Another aspect of this is that women are on the whole taking more steps to avoid risk than men are (staying in more, not walking in isolated places, travelling by black cab rather than public transport, avoiding various social situations and so on) and therefore you would expect and hope this would reduce the impact of violence on them. But it does not follow from this that they are less at risk of it or less susceptible to it. And I find it quite insulting to suggest so, given that women feel they are making so many compromises to keep things that way.

    Another aspect of this is that the violence is predominantly being carried out by men, against both men and women. And I find it very problematic to equate female and male victims of a violent culture that is within the control of only one of those groups. To put it brutally and over simplistically, if men want to beat each other up, that’s their look out, if they are victims, then they are victims of themselves. But once they start frightening the women and the kids and beating them up too, then they are creating victims and it’s a slap in the face to say, “congratulations, we only kill you half as often”.

  63. 63
    pikeamus

    Lucy:

    You seem to be saying that all men are responsible for male culture and no women are. The implication there, I suppose, would be that all women are responsible for female culture and no men are. Is this actually your position?

  64. 64
    H. E. Pennypacker

    @ 55

    I think there’s probably some validity to such evolutionary arguments but you can’t state them as fact. There are big problems with some of the foundational assumptions of evolutionary biology/psychology or what more generally advocates of such an approach like to refer to as “Darwinian”* approaches.

    Moreover you seem to stray pretty far from this reasoning when you say:

    “Why waste money for feel-good notions like “equality” or “justice”? These are simply subjective platitudes that apes made up in order to derive some sense of control over an indifferent and random world.”

    By your logic that human behaviours evolved under natural selection as the most efficient systems for survival these should also be efficient. You haven’t demonstrated that greater variance in males is any more “natural” than notions of “equality” and “justice”. Presumably we felt to feel these emotions for a reason.

    Of course, this is all ignoring the fact that advocates of a “Darwinian” understanding of human behaviour have had to drop any pretence that human behaviour has been shaped purely by survival selection pressures and have had to resort to variations on the theme of sexual selection which means that evolved behaviour very often isn’t efficient.

    *I always find this slightly strange because it seems no more meaningful than saying you’re a Copernican or Newtonian.

  65. 65
    H. E. Pennypacker

    @ 59

    I’m slightly unsure what you’re precise disagreement is with.

    “Sexual violence is defined by the victims and knife, gun and gang crime is defined by the actions of the perpetrators? What do you mean? Surely all types of crime are defined by parliament.”

    I mean that violence against women and girls is defined by who the victims are: https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/ending-violence-against-women-and-girls-in-the-uk

    Whilst knife, gun and gang crime are defined by what the perpetrators do. This seems a pretty basic point. I’m not really sure how I can explain it any more clearly.

    “A policy targeting female victims of crime explains why the victims are the target? A tautology but moving on,”
    Are you sure you read my post properly? I said a policy targeting violence that is defined by who the victims are is likely to concentrate more on how to help those victims than a policy targeting violence that is defined by what the perpetrators do. If your focus is on helping a particular type of victim you are more likely to suggest ways of supporting the victims than if your focus is on reducing a specific type of crime.

    “why can’t a policy target the perpetrators of discriminatory crime? We do that with racially or religiously or homophobic aggravated crime. Why not gender-aggravated?”
    I never said it couldn’t I simply pointed out that if the focus of a policy is on protecting a specific type of victim then it is likely to be more concerned with how to help those victims than a policy that is about preventing specific types of crime (as defined by the actions of the perpetrator).

    I certainly don’t have a problem with gender-aggravated crime being defined as discriminatory (although I’d add that it shouldn’t be restricted to gender-aggravated crime against women and girls). Policies that target discriminatory crime are still focused on the perpetrators rather than the victims. A random mugging of a Muslim is not considered a discriminatory crime. A discriminatory crime is defined by the motivation of the perpetrators whereas the policy that Ally links to is defined by the identity of the victim. The policy Ally links to is not only about crime against women and girls which is motivated by their gender, it’s about all violence against women and girls. I’d add that although I wouldn’t oppose it, I don’t think that defining gender-aggravated hate crimes as hate crimes is as useful as it is with the other forms of discrimination that you point to. Most gender-based hate crimes seem to be committed by one-off nutters (eg. male serial killers targetting women or, say, Valerie Solanas).

  66. 66
    Tamen

    Lucy:

    I found it somewhat amusing that after your comment which is basically the same as saying that it’s illogical to assume that women and men have the same sexual tendencies and sexual behaviours as men:

    It would only be illogical if women had the same sexual preferences, the same sexual tendencies, the same sexual behaviour as men, and they don’t.

    follow up with another comment concerning other primates, which if it were to have any relevance to this discussion would have to assume that human sexual tendencies and human sexual behaviours were the same (or similar enough) to chimpanzees’ and gorillas’.

    You also responded to JT with this:

    If you have some data (any data) supporting your theory that just as many, or more, women than men molest children, then the floor is yours.

    Perhaps this was an honest mistake, but it was Copyleft who made the assertion that the majority of child molesters were female while JT questions the validity of your 2% figure for female perpetrators due to it only representing cases registered by the CPS in their CMS and WMS systems.

    ChildLine in the UK published a paper with statistics on the calls they got from children about sexual abuse:

    In 2008/09, 54 per cent of children who called ChildLine said that their abusers were
    males and 17 per cent said that their abusers were females. Twenty-nine per cent of the
    children did not identify whether their abuser was male or female.

    In this US study of 17,337 survivors of childhood sexual abuse, 23% had a female-only perpetrator and 22% had both male and female perpetrators:
    Dube, S; Anda, R; Whitfield, C; Brown, D; Felitti, V; Dong, M; Giles, W (2005). “Long-Term Consequences of Childhood Sexual Abuse by Gender of Victim”. American Journal of Preventive Medicine 28 (5): 430–8. doi:10.1016/j.amepre.2005.01.015. PMID 15894146

    A study done by the UD DOJ on known offenders (based on NIBRS numbers) found that the younger the victims were the more likely it was that the perpertatrator was female. When the victim was < 6 years old 12% of the known perpetrators were women, victim aged 6-12 then 6% of perpetrators were women. victim aged 12-17 then 3% of perpetrators were women. Remember, these are known/reported perpetratrors and that self-reporting victimization studies show a higher rate of female perpetrators than the studies looking at know perpetrators.

    So, no, one cannot say that women perpetrate the majority of childhood sexual abuse, but they are the perpetrator in a lot more than the 2% you asserted.

  67. 67
    H. E. Pennypacker

    @ Lucy 61 and 62

    Everything’s constantly sliding back and forth with your argument. I picked up on the question of legality because you stated that legality was a crucial issue. You said it was crucial. Your policy is keep changing what’s important so as to minimise the impact of violence on men and excuse you blatant lack of sympathy for male victims of violence.

    You’re not concerned with the facts, you’re concerned with upholding an extremely traditional and patriarchal narrative where all women are constant victims and all men are constant perpetrators. As much as you try to hide your hatred it comes spilling out:

    “To put it brutally and over simplistically, if men want to beat each other up, that’s their look out, if they are victims, then they are victims of themselves.”

    Thankfully I think most people reading that would be able to see you for the disgustingly bigoted individual you are.

  68. 68
    H. E. Pennypacker

    On the notion that male violence is a problem of purely male creation it’s worth quoting the great historian J. A. Mangan in ‘Middle-Class Women Versifiers of the Great War’ although his concern is primarily with war:

    “The simplistic feminist protestation ‘that repudiates war as the outcome of compulsive male aggressiveness or, anyway, of the patriarchal mode’ [11] is revealed in the verse of the women of the Great War for what it is: naive and polemical rather than profound and analytical.”

    Such verse as:

    “But the wise lads, the dear lads, the pathway’s dewy green,
    For the little Knights of Paradise of eighteen and nineteen;
    They run the road to Heaven, they are singing as they go,
    And the blood of their sacrifice has washed them white as snow.”

    or

    “Pinks and syringa in the garden closes
    And the sweet privet hedge and golden roses.
    The pines hot in the sun, the drone of the bee;
    They die in Flanders to keep these for me.

    The long sunny days and the still weather,
    The cuckoo and the blackbird shouting together,
    The lambs calling their mothers out on the lea;
    They die in Flanders to keep these for me.

    Daisies leaping in foam on the green grasses,
    The dappled sky and the stream that sings as it passes –
    These are bought with a price, a bitter fee –
    They die in Flanders to keep these for me.”

  69. 69
    JT

    @Lucy

    Funny thing about bonbo’s. They sure do like having sex. All kinds of sex with multiple partners. They have so much sex that I don’t think rape is even heard of in regards to them. They sure are pretty chill towards each other too. Hmmm, I wonder why? ;)
    I think you need to chill a little.

  70. 70
    JT

    @Lucy

    Just so we dont get our signals mixed because of the inadequacies of the english language. Why dont we change the word equal to capable. In other words, I think it is logical to believe that women are just as capable for committing child abuse as men are. The fact that many studies show that they commit a fair bit of it suggests your 2% idea is bogus.

  71. 71
    Raging Bee

    “Lying about sexual assault = A crime” “Don’t be that girl”.

    Lying about ANY crime is a crime — it’s generally called “filing a false police report” or some such. This is already as well known as most other basic laws. So why are these men only saying this about sexual assault, and not about mugging or murder? The answer is simple: they’re trying to deter women from speaking out about rape, by threatening them with dire consequences if they’re not believed (and women have good reason to think they would not be believed); but they don’t want to deter anyone else from reporting any other crime. And that, in turn, is because they simply don’t want to deal with rape at all.

    The bit you quoted is clearly nothing more than a campaign to bully women into silence and deter them from exercising their rights under the law. So once again, yes, the “don’t be that girl” campaign is targeting victims.

  72. 72
    Raging Bee

    Seriously, Archy? A Wikipedia article peppered with qualifications like “This article’s lead section may not adequately summarize key points of its contents.” and ” There are many reasons other than falsity that can result in a rape case being closed as unfounded or unproven.” and “However, “unfounded” is not synonymous with false allegation.” And that was before I even saw the “Criticisms” section.

    That’s all you got? Fuck off to bed.

  73. 73
    Archy

    ” So why are these men only saying this about sexual assault, and not about mugging or murder? ”

    Are you trolling? Lying about mugging will get barely any attention, the victim usually won’t goto jail and there are a hell of a lot more ways to define proof of guilt in that situation. Murder is easy to disprove if there is no one dead. A rape accusation however does harm to the reputation and can potentially result in jailtime to the accused. If a woman says someone killed another then there is a far far greater chance the police would know about it, have already arrested them and the info would be public knowledge. But accusations of rape even when proven innocent can have harmful effects on a person since that mud sticks, others make up their mind about it and that person can lose their partner, be ostracized, etc all throughout the trial.

    Think about it, if you heard a woman say a guy you know raped her, would you still be that guys friend or treat him the same as before? There will be many people who’ll dump him instantly, workplaces can harass the hell out of him or just fire him over the issue, if you run for public office it can play havoc on your ability to get voted in, if you work with children then you’re probably going to lose that privilege.

    “The bit you quoted is clearly nothing more than a campaign to bully women into silence and deter them from exercising their rights under the law. So once again, yes, the “don’t be that girl” campaign is targeting victims.”

    No it isn’t, as much as you want to believe it’s targetting victims, it’s targetting perpetrators of a crime that damages reputations and can even result in jailtime. MEN HAVE BEEN BEATEN UP before over accusations alone, hell a false pedophilia accusation is even worse and recently resulted in someone being SET ON FIRE. A falsely accused 18 year old was recently killed by 5 people over that accusation. False accusations of rape are a unique crime, completely unlike false accusations of murder or robbery so your logic is very flawed.

    If a victim is genuine, then this poster does NOT TARGET THEM fullstop. Lying about a rape is a crime, not legitimately claiming you’ve been raped.

  74. 74
    Archy

    http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
    Google false rape accusation statistics if you’re so interested. It’s between 0.000000001% and let’s say 50% for arguments sake. My guess is that it’s in the early single digits, maybe 3-6%.

    Got any data of your own before you start insulting me further? All I said was there are some cases where false accusations happen, they get quite a bit of attention and are a major travesty of justice which does a shitload of harm to legitimate claims. I didn’t say at all what the actual rate was. So take your anger somewhere else, or try to be respectful in your replies to me and I will afford you the same.

  75. 75
    Raging Bee

    Google false rape accusation statistics if you’re so interested. It’s between 0.000000001% and let’s say 50% for arguments sake.

    If you had a reliable figure, you’d be quoting it, instead of blathering about such a wide range “for argument’s sake.”

    My guess is that it’s in the early single digits, maybe 3-6%.

    In other words, not nearly enough to justify any presumption of guilt on the victim’s part. And also not enough to justify the campaign of hate and hounding that we’re seeing from prople like you. If only 3-6% of rape allegations turn out to be DELIBERATELY FALSE (as opposed to just unproven, there is a difference here), that means at least 94% of rape allegations need to be taken seriously, at least until a proper investigation rules them out.

    Think about it, if you heard a woman say a guy you know raped her, would you still be that guys friend or treat him the same as before?

    I’d at least take the allegation seriously — as I would an allegation of robbery or drug-dealing or any other crime. (And why are you referring to “a guy I know?” Is that supposed to affect how I respond to serious allegations? Are you going to ask me how I would respond if “a woman I know” said she’d been raped?)

    There will be many people who’ll dump him instantly, workplaces can harass the hell out of him or just fire him over the issue, if you run for public office it can play havoc on your ability to get voted in, if you work with children then you’re probably going to lose that privilege.

    That sort of thing happens all the time, as a result of ANY alleged crime — theft, embezzlement, misconduct, drug use, and all manner of alleged “conduct unbecoming.” There’s nothing special about rape alegations here, and you’d know it if you read any news. There is, quite simply, no justification at all for trying to intimidate women from speaking out about rape; or for giving any weight to the largely imagined danger of false rape allegations.

  76. 76
    Raging Bee

    If a victim is genuine, then this poster does NOT TARGET THEM fullstop.

    You’re starting to sound like Todd Aiken talking about “legitimate rape.” This poster does indeed target women by all-but-explicitly warning them that they may not be considered “genuine” if they come forward. If you really can’t see how this works, then you’re not paying attention. You can shout “no it isn’t” all you want, but it doesn’t change the observable facts.

    When local cops want people to help them deal with a crime wave, they explicitly ENCOURAGE people to come forward with whatever information they have. They NEVER say “lying about [whatever the crime is] is a crime!” (even though it is) because they do NOT want to deter people from doing what they can to help. So why are you assholes baning on and on about how lying about rape is a crime? The answer is simple, and obvius: because you don’t want women to speak out about rape.

  77. 77
    Raging Bee

    Another thing: I’ve never known actual police officers or prosecutors to talk about how lying about rape is a crime. They at least want to credibly pretend they care, and when there’s a pattern of assaults in a given area, they always publicly encourage people to come forward, without threatening them with jail-time if their information turns out false.

    So is it the cops who are saying “lying about rape is a crime?” I don’t hear that from cops in my area. Or is it just a bunch of irresponsible men who don’t really care about fighting crime?

  78. 78
    Raging Bee

    Funny thing about bonbo’s. They sure do like having sex. All kinds of sex with multiple partners. They have so much sex that I don’t think rape is even heard of in regards to them. They sure are pretty chill towards each other too. Hmmm, I wonder why? I think you need to chill a little.

    So a totally different SPECIES has lots of sex, therefore Lucy should “chill?” That non-sequitur is childish and stupid even by MRA standards. What are you, eight? Fuck off to bed and take your chimp fantasies with you.

  79. 79
    Raging Bee

    “The simplistic feminist protestation ‘that repudiates war as the outcome of compulsive male aggressiveness or, anyway, of the patriarchal mode’ [11] is revealed in the verse of the women of the Great War for what it is: naive and polemical rather than profound and analytical.”

    And this is proven by POEMS written by women? Seriously? Women may glorify or fantasize about war, but it’s still mostly the men who actually make the decisions that cause wars to erupt. (Among the only exceptions being the most decidedly NON-feminist women like Margaret Thatcher and maybe Elizabeth I.)

  80. 80
    Archy

    “There is, quite simply, no justification at all for trying to intimidate women from speaking out about rape; or for giving any weight to the largely imagined danger of false rape allegations.”

    You keep suggesting it’s trying to silence women. The only women that should worry are those who falsely claim rape as a tactic for hurting someone. I don’t know how many times I can say this but THIS IS NOT AT ALL ABOUT REAL VICTIMS. A real victim is not committing a crime, nor regretting consenting sex, so your argument is without merit.

    “In other words, not nearly enough to justify any presumption of guilt on the victim’s part.”
    Did I say it was? Real victims are not guilty, they’re not even targetted in the ad campaign. If you cannot understand this simple fact, then do not ever operate a vehicle.

    “And also not enough to justify the campaign of hate and hounding that we’re seeing from prople like you. ”
    People like me? Someone that pointed out a poster was about false accusations and not real victims? Good job strawmanning my position.

    “f only 3-6% of rape allegations turn out to be DELIBERATELY FALSE (as opposed to just unproven, there is a difference here), that means at least 94% of rape allegations need to be taken seriously, at least until a proper investigation rules them out.”

    Duh, of course. Who is arguing against that? Here, it’s really simple. If you were raped, report it. If you regret sex, are ashamed of cheating on your partner, do not falsely accuse someone of rape. It’s dead simple.

    “That sort of thing happens all the time, as a result of ANY alleged crime”
    Are you seriously going to suggest there are no unique stigmas attached to rapists? Show me the people being killed for falsely being accused as a robber. I seriously cannot understand how you can be so utterly ignorant of the fact that sexual crimes get a much larger stigma (just as crimes against children get even more stigma). Go look up the news reports of people falsely accused of rape who have been harmed or killed because of that alone, I am yet to see even one case of a falsely accused robber being killed for it.

    “And why are you referring to “a guy I know?” ”
    Simply because of how it’s gendered in the poster.

  81. 81
    Archy

    “You’re starting to sound like Todd Aiken talking about “legitimate rape.””

    Now you’re just using insults because your argument is terrible? Seriously? Todd Aiken was a rape apologist. We’re talking about false accusers and real accusers here, real accusers = legitimate victims of rape. There is absolutely no comparison to Todd Aiken’s stupidity, and to imply so is just another way to try attack my character on false grounds. Do you commonly do this instead of actually debate the truth?

    “This poster does indeed target women by all-but-explicitly warning them that they may not be considered “genuine” if they come forward. If you really can’t see how this works, then you’re not paying attention. You can shout “no it isn’t” all you want, but it doesn’t change the observable facts.”

    You’re seeing what you want to see there because of your own internal bias. If you think calling out false accusers is a dig against legitimate victims, then maybe you need to address your own thought processes in how you link 2 separate issues.

    “So why are you assholes baning on and on about how lying about rape is a crime? The answer is simple, and obvius: because you don’t want women to speak out about rape.”

    Your logic is so flawed yet again. Do you not understand that people are speaking out against false accusations because they do real harm to people, both the accused, and to legit victims of rape? I’ve seen OODLES of legit victims of rape show absolute hatred for false accusers because they know it fucks up their chances even more of being believed.

    I want women to speak out against rape, I have actively helped women leave abusive situations (and men), I have educated women on abuse before and helped quite a few in restoring their lives, their mental strength, given them information of where to seek help, given shelter where needed and paid for food, been the best friend I could be, tried very hard to eliminate slut shaming from their own beliefs of themselves, I’ve told them they are not sluts when they have told me they think they are, helped them restore their self-esteem, I’ve done everything I could for them legally. So how about instead of making assumptions, maybe realize that people are speaking out against false accusations doing harm to both legit victims and the accused.

  82. 82
    Archy

    “They at least want to credibly pretend they care, and when there’s a pattern of assaults in a given area, they always publicly encourage people to come forward, without threatening them with jail-time if their information turns out false.”

    You do realize that unfounded accusations are NOT false accusations right? A woman who accuses a man and there isn’t enough evidence to convict, or she mistakenly identifies him is not purposely falsely accusing. A woman (or man) who KNOWINGLY accuses someone of rape when they KNOW they did not commit it are the ones this is targetting, and who are committing a crime. It wastes valuable police resources (eg, http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/Strood-woman-fined-500-wasting-police-time-false/story-19249769-detail/story.html ) wasted 250 hours which is what, 25bucks an hour of police time thereabouts, maybe 30? $6k+ of money for wages and 250 hours of police time that are stolen from them going after real rapists, and the harm done to the REAL victim who was falsely accused, and the harm done to REAL victims of rape since it dillutes the trust of people in society.

    “So is it the cops who are saying “lying about rape is a crime?” I don’t hear that from cops in my area. Or is it just a bunch of irresponsible men who don’t really care about fighting crime?”
    It’s rape victims saying it, it’s responsible men and women telling people not to lie about rape. Granted I do think they need to say more about actual false accusations differ from unfounded ones.

  83. 83
    Archy

    And yes, the women I helped, fucking hate false accusers. As do most people that understand lying about crimes like that damage the reputation and make it harder for legit victims, and it’s also disgusting morally to lie about, not to mention use the good thing that is legal actions against rapists and turning it into a weapon to harm innocents.

  84. 84
    Archy

    Would you be ok with a poster saying “Making a false accusation of rape harms real victims of rape” and details on that unfounded accusations are not false, but actual false accusations are a crime and how bad it is? Can a poster exist which still supports real rape victims getting justice, not making it harder for them but also addressing the false accusation problem?

  85. 85
    Raging Bee

    The only women that should worry are those who falsely claim rape as a tactic for hurting someone.

    And the only people who should worry about losing their rights are the guilty ones, right?

    Go look up the news reports of people falsely accused of rape who have been harmed or killed because of that alone…

    Sorry, I was busy looking up news reports of rape VICTIMS being shamed, ostracised, harmed and killed, without any proof that they had lied about being raped. (Were all of those people you mention able to actually prove the accusations against them were deliberate falsehoods?)

  86. 86
    Raging Bee

    Can a poster exist which still supports real rape victims getting justice, not making it harder for them but also addressing the false accusation problem?

    We don’t really worry about that when fighting other crimes, so why should we let such worries compromise our efforts to fight rape?

  87. 87
    Raging Bee

    If you think calling out false accusers is a dig against legitimate victims…

    Exaggerating the extent of false accusations is indeed a dig at “legitimate victims” (of “legitimate rape?”), because it preemptively attacks their credibility before they’ve even said a word. This is why real cops and prosecutors don’t say this sort of thing when they want victims of crimes to speak up.

  88. 88
    Raging Bee

    I have actively helped women leave abusive situations (and men), I have educated women on abuse before and helped quite a few in restoring their lives, their mental strength, given them information of where to seek help, given shelter where needed and paid for food, been the best friend I could be…

    Yes, that all sounds very nice — if it’s true — but I have to piont out that there are a lot of people, men and women, who have actually been raped, who don’t agree with what you say. Your claims of experience do not trump theirs.

  89. 89
    JT

    So a totally different SPECIES has lots of sex, therefore Lucy should “chill?” That non-sequitur is childish and stupid even by MRA standards. What are you, eight? Fuck off to bed and take your chimp fantasies with you.(Raging)

    Ah Bee, there you go Raging again. Here’s the thing, your behaviour is more linked to Chimps as they are more violent. Bonobos on the other hand are more chill, you know, make love not war. By the way, Bonobo’s are our closest primate link, something like 97 or 98% DNA match. :)
    Oh, and by the way, if I was an MRA I would probably be threatening to beat your fucking brains to a pulp. Seeing as Im not I just think it. ;)

  90. 90
    JT

    @Bee

    We should go out for a pint. I promise to bring my wife so as to make you as comfortable as possible. :)

  91. 91
    Ginkgo

    RB @ 76 – “The answer is simple, and obvius: because you don’t want women to speak out about rape.”

    You are equating lying about rape with speaking about rape here. Are you seriously saying they are the same thing by insisting that this is all about stopping women from speaking about rape?

    “Your claims of experience do not trump theirs.”

    Speaking of rape victims and thier experience, it is not at all unusual for female rape victims to be the most vehement on the subject of false rape accusations. They have a lot of reasons ot feel that way.

  92. 92
    Unphysicalism

    The number of people falsely accused of rape is low enough that it would be more efficient to skip the trial and imprison the alleged criminal automatically, as long as sex can be established. It’s a waste of money to have trials for someone with a small probability of innocence. Sure, a few innocent people get sent to prison, but that’s a worthwhile cost for greater efficiency. Besides, males are not as deeply scared by prison as females, because they lack the capacity to feel deeper emotions, as I already established. I don’t see the harm in sending some of them to prison due to false accusations. Males are rather expendable. That’s why they are the soldiers and why they are the coal miners. Female lives are the limiting reagent in the reproductive capacity of a population. For the survival of the population, they are the ones whose lives need to be maintained with more diligence.

  93. 93
    Unphysicalism

    I also never stated that evolved tendencies are necessarily the most efficient. Rather, I stated that efficiency is the only coherent goal one can possibly imagine pursuing because it’s the only one which can be quantified. “Happiness,” “justice,” “morality,” “rights,” etc. are vague, subjective, and hollow.

  94. 94
    Archy

    ” (Were all of those people you mention able to actually prove the accusations against them were deliberate falsehoods?)”
    They admitted it in a court of law, so yes? When you have people who recant and say they recant due to hiding infidelity, etc then you clearly have a legitimate false accusation. Unfounded accusations are a different matter and should never result in any punishment.

  95. 95
    Archy

    “We don’t really worry about that when fighting other crimes, so why should we let such worries compromise our efforts to fight rape?”

    Now I am starting to think you are trolling, I’ve already explained it. Because vigilantes harm the accused, because real reputation damage happens far more than for other crimes that are not sexually based.

  96. 96
    Archy

    “Yes, that all sounds very nice — if it’s true — but I have to piont out that there are a lot of people, men and women, who have actually been raped, who don’t agree with what you say. Your claims of experience do not trump theirs.”

    So they don’t think false accusers should be called out? Do they think false accusers should get punishment?

    @Unphysicalism

    ” For the survival of the population, they are the ones whose lives need to be maintained with more diligence.”
    You realize the majority of rape against males is perpetrated by women, so should we skip trials for them too? Just lock up the women on the word?

  97. 97
    Unphysicalism

    Locking up women for rape would be inefficient and a waste of resources. Women are not a threat to public safety. Keeping women in prison would cost more money than the value of the measly few lives it would save.

  98. 98
    Lucy

    @pikeamus

    “You seem to be saying that all men are responsible for male culture and no women are. The implication there, I suppose, would be that all women are responsible for female culture and no men are. Is this actually your position?”

    No obviously it’s an oversimplification in order to explain my point. Reality is much more complex.

    The reason I’m talking about male and female sexes as distinct units with joint responsibility for that unit’s activities is because that is how Ally Fogg framed things in the previous blog about victims of crime and how he frames it here actually when talking about perpetrators of it. In other words, it doesn’t make sense to take about male and female susceptibility to crime if you’re not also prepared to talk about male and female susceptibility to commit it. And once you go that route, you’re playing the joint rights and responsibilities game. I did say previously I thought it would make more sense to look at female and male crime and victim hood as separate phenomena rather than play them off against one another.

    My actual position is that men and women are in a complex symbiotic relationship that creates male and female culture, that male and female cultures are not homogenous, but that as with all other social phenomena there are discernible patterns that can only be easily talked about in broad brush strokes.

  99. 99
    Lucy

    @Tamen

    “I found it somewhat amusing that after your comment which is basically the same as saying that it’s illogical to assume that women and men have the same sexual tendencies and sexual behaviours as men:

    It would only be illogical if women had the same sexual preferences, the same sexual tendencies, the same sexual behaviour as men, and they don’t.

    follow up with another comment concerning other primates, which if it were to have any relevance to this discussion would have to assume that human sexual tendencies and human sexual behaviours were the same (or similar enough) to chimpanzees’ and gorillas’.”

    Humans are apes. Apes are apes. Of course it’s relevant.

    “Perhaps this was an honest mistake, but it was Copyleft who made the assertion that the majority of child molesters were female while JT questions the validity of your 2% figure for female perpetrators due to it only representing cases registered by the CPS in their CMS and WMS systems.

    ChildLine in the UK published a paper with statistics on the calls they got from children about sexual abuse:

    In 2008/09, 54 per cent of children who called ChildLine said that their abusers were
    males and 17 per cent said that their abusers were females. Twenty-nine per cent of the
    children did not identify whether their abuser was male or female.

    In this US study of 17,337 survivors of childhood sexual abuse, 23% had a female-only perpetrator and 22% had both male and female perpetrators:
    Dube, S; Anda, R; Whitfield, C; Brown, D; Felitti, V; Dong, M; Giles, W (2005). “Long-Term Consequences of Childhood Sexual Abuse by Gender of Victim”. American Journal of Preventive Medicine 28 (5): 430–8. doi:10.1016/j.amepre.2005.01.015. PMID 15894146

    A study done by the UD DOJ on known offenders (based on NIBRS numbers) found that the younger the victims were the more likely it was that the perpertatrator was female. When the victim was < 6 years old 12% of the known perpetrators were women, victim aged 6-12 then 6% of perpetrators were women. victim aged 12-17 then 3% of perpetrators were women. Remember, these are known/reported perpetratrors and that self-reporting victimization studies show a higher rate of female perpetrators than the studies looking at know perpetrators.

    So, no, one cannot say that women perpetrate the majority of childhood sexual abuse, but they are the perpetrator in a lot more than the 2% you asserted."

    2%, 17%, 23%, 6%, 3%

    So, as you say, there is precisely no data to support the assertion that women carry out the majority of molestations of children and plenty to suggest men do.

    Is your point that the CPS figures are less reliable than a US study or anecdotal phone reports to Childline?
    Or that no figures are reliable? Or that Copyleft's hunch is the best measure?

  100. 100
    Lucy

    H.E.Pennypacker

    “Everything’s constantly sliding back and forth with your argument. I picked up on the question of legality because you stated that legality was a crucial issue. You said it was crucial. Your policy is keep changing what’s important so as to minimise the impact of violence on men and excuse you blatant lack of sympathy for male victims of violence.”

    But you picked it up incorrectly. My point about legality being crucial was about provocation of the crime.

    It’s never been my position that random crimes carried out against random criminals means the victim is responsible for it. My point was that crimes carried out against people who have provoked the crime in question means they are partially responsible for it.

    You were confusing vulnerability for provocation.

    You were confusing being drunk or taking drugs for provoking sexual violence.

    There is a fundamental legal, ethical and logical difference between flirting and threatening somebody. A fundamental legal, ethical and logical difference between being illegally drunk and being raped and being an illegal gangster in a confrontation and being shot.

    —-

    “You’re not concerned with the facts, you’re concerned with upholding an extremely traditional and patriarchal narrative where all women are constant victims and all men are constant perpetrators. As much as you try to hide your hatred it comes spilling out:

    Well I’m concerned with the facts so far as it’s a fact that men carry out the vast, VAST, majority of violence. And with the fact that in every place where men have access to women (ie. in the home, in the bedroom, though not on the street) women make up the vast majority of their victims.

    “Me: To put it brutally and over simplistically, if men want to beat each other up, that’s their look out, if they are victims, then they are victims of themselves.”

    You: Thankfully I think most people reading that would be able to see you for the disgustingly bigoted individual you are.”

    Maybe.

    So to summarise, you’d like it to be women’s look out? Not content that we’ve been living half lives taking evasive action against men for millennia with no prospect of any let up, not content that we’re being denied basic rights the world over, beaten up, shot with crossbows, buried alive, set on fire and having acid chucked in our faces, not content that we then get blamed for it for being too flirty, being obviously female or being outside, we’ve also got to worry about men violently competing with one another for the right to do it?

    Don’t you think we’ve got enough on our plate? Count yourself lucky that we’re docile and not rioting or strapping explosives to ourselves, or having a war about this massive social injustice like the non-bigots do at the drop of a hat.

  101. 101
    Lucy

    @JT

    “Just so we dont get our signals mixed because of the inadequacies of the english language. Why dont we change the word equal to capable. In other words, I think it is logical to believe that women are just as capable for committing child abuse as men are. The fact that many studies show that they commit a fair bit of it suggests your 2% idea is bogus.”

    Of course women are just as capable of committing child abuse as men are. They’ve got the same number of arms and legs. But they don’t.

  102. 102
    Lucy

    @JT

    “Funny thing about bonbo’s. They sure do like having sex. All kinds of sex with multiple partners. They have so much sex that I don’t think rape is even heard of in regards to them. They sure are pretty chill towards each other too. Hmmm, I wonder why? ”

    Probably because they’re matriarchal.

    Chimps are patriarchal, like humans.

    “I think you need to chill a little.”

    Was that some kind of weird chat up?

  103. 103
    Lucy

    And it he discrepancy between male and female rates of child sexual abuse is even more remarkable when you consider how much time men and women relatively spend with children. This discrepancy is hugely statistically significant and definitely suggests environmental factors aren’t the whole story.

  104. 104
    JT

    @Lucy

    Maybe you need to be more like a Bonobo then and the men in your life will become less like chimps. Mind you, listening to you and Bee chat it up in here Im thinking you two are a long way from being matriarchal. Whats that old idea? If you want change in your life start with the one in the mirror.

  105. 105
    Archy

    “And with the fact that in every place where men have access to women (ie. in the home, in the bedroom, though not on the street) women make up the vast majority of their victims.”

    Did you know that in the same places, men are the majority victims too of women? The risk of your partner harming you is quite high, probably the highest of all perpetrators in many areas except war or maybe high streetcrime areas.

  106. 106
    Paul

    @101 Lucy

    Of course women are just as capable of committing child abuse as men are. They’ve got the same number of arms and legs. But they don’t.

    Men make up betwen 92%-96% of the adults found guilty of child sex abuse every year in the UK.There was some research which suggested that around 25% of adults who sexually abuse children could be women and that because the crime is so closely associated with men they’re more likely to slip under the radar.Nevertheless every bit of available research suggests that most adults who sexually abuse children are men.However more research needs to be done on the extent to which women are guilty of child sex abuse..

    Non-sexual abuse of children -defined as physical violence,emotional cruelty ,neglect and verbal abuse- can damage a child every bit as much as sexual abuse.And there is evidence that women are much more involved in that .In fact i recently saw some rather confusing research by the NSPCC which suggested that up until the age of 11 women are actually more likely than men to subject children to non-sexual abuse whereas from 12 -17 men make up the majority of non-sexual abusers.

    There is also the issue to which men and women can be complicit in the abuse of children even though they may not actually be abusive themselves.For instance the mother who threatens her children with ” wait till your father gets home ”and then stands back whilst the father beats the shit out of them is complicit in their abuse. And likelwise the father who knows or suspects his children are being abused by the mother but does nothing to stop it and may actively encourage it is also guilty of complicity.

    The number of children who die as a result of domestic abuse in the UK is actually declining and currently stands at around 60 a year -although some think it may be higher. And women are involved in the majority of these child deaths.

  107. 107
    Archy

    “And women are involved in the majority of these child deaths.”

    Do we need a “Don’t be that mother” campaign? :P

  108. 108
    mildlymagnificent

    Do we need a “Don’t be that mother” campaign?

    No. What every English speaking country I know of needs is for many more, many more, responsible and sensible people to step up and offer themselves as foster-parents.

    If social workers had more options for short-term as well as longer-term extracting children from neglectful or dangerous parents then they might be in a better position to prevent deaths and serious injuries. When parents have mental illnesses and drug addiction problems as well as the all too common. undiluted parental incompetence, social workers are between a rock and a hard place. Making it possible for more frequent, routine respite for both children and parents from each other’s problems would make the job easier for the professionals and life better for the kids.

  109. 109
    JT

    If social workers had more options for short-term as well as longer-term extracting children from neglectful or dangerous parents then they might be in a better position to prevent deaths and serious injuries.(Mild)

    I would imagine the same holds true for most serial rapists. Odds are great that they didn’t come from a loving, attentive family. But I imagine the “Don’t be that guy” would be more effective for them, right?

  110. 110
    Lucy

    @Archy

    “Did you know that in the same places [home, bedroom], men are the majority victims too of women? The risk of your partner harming you is quite high, probably the highest of all perpetrators in many areas except war or maybe high streetcrime areas.

    Can you please post your stats for this.

    In the case of murder, most men are killed by friends or acquaintances, most women are killed by partners or ex-partners.

  111. 111
    Lucy

    @Archy
    “The number of children who die as a result of domestic abuse in the UK is actually declining and currently stands at around 60 a year -although some think it may be higher. And women are involved in the majority of these child deaths.”

    Can you please post your source

    Killings of children by a natural parent are committed in roughly equal proportions by mothers (47%) and fathers (53%), but where the child is killed by someone other than a [birth] parent, males strongly predominate.
    Office of National Statistics: Focus on violent crime and sexual offences 2011/12
    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_298904.pdf

  112. 112
    Lucy

    JT: “Maybe you need to be more like a Bonobo then and the men in your life will become less like chimps. Mind you, listening to you and Bee chat it up in here Im thinking you two are a long way from being matriarchal. Whats that old idea? If you want change in your life start with the one in the mirror.”

    Tell you what: less chimp* > more bonobo.

    * some men

  113. 113
    Archy

    NISVS 2010 for domestic violence and rape. Basically in the home, you’re most likely to be hurt by your partner. The only time you’re more at risk of external violence is for males on the street and probably street harassment too for females, and maybe schoolyard bullying?

    As for murder statistics, ones I’ve seen I don’t recall showing the relationship at all of the perpetrator but I’ll try look around for more.

  114. 114
    Archy

    “@Archy
    “The number of children who die as a result of domestic abuse in the UK is actually declining and currently stands at around 60 a year -although some think it may be higher. And women are involved in the majority of these child deaths.”

    Can you please post your source”

    I didn’t post that.

    Btw people. We’re not bonobos or chimps, we’re humans. We are the most unqiue species due to our intelligence, our society itself has evolved well past simple instincts and basic animalistic behaviours. The fact that we’re debating this shit when it’s most likely no other being on Earth has debated it, is pretty damn good evidence. We can be the most violent of animals, but also the most loving.

  115. 115
    JT

    We are the most unqiue species due to our intelligence, our society itself has evolved well past simple instincts and basic animalistic behaviours. (Archy)

    I would question the “well past” aspect of that statement.

  116. 116
    Lucy

    “We are the most unqiue species due to our intelligence, our society itself has evolved well past simple instincts and basic animalistic behaviours.”

    I don’t think so. I think we have a much more sophisticated version of it, but the same principles underlie our behaviour. We may think we do things for rational reasons, but it’s generally an illusion. We certainly have the same structures and hierarchies, the same trends of social and anti-social/sociopathic/criminal behaviour.

    ” The fact that we’re debating this shit when it’s most likely no other being on Earth has debated it, is pretty damn good evidence. ”
    But ultimately does anything change as a result? There is an argument for instance that despite all the massive investment in policing, there has been no discernible effect on crime levels.

    “Most loving”
    Hardly, we are the most destructive and inventively, consciously cruel, bar none*

    * one half much more than the other.

  117. 117
    Lucy

    @Archy

    “We are the most unqiue species due to our intelligence; our society itself has evolved well past simple instincts and basic animalistic behaviours.”

    This thread and your comment put me in mind of the following edited passage from Mark Rowlands’ book, The Philosopher and the Wolf: Lessons from the Wild on Love, Death and Happiness. Described as “a powerfully subversive critique of the unexamined assumption that shape the way most philosophers – along with most people – think about animals and themselves.”

    In their book, the Machivellian Intelligence Hypothesis, two primatologists, Andrew Whiten and Richard Byrne gave the following account of an exchange between 3 chimps:

    One of the males, Luit is making advances on a female chimp, while Nikkie, who at the time is the official alpha male, is lying in the grass about fifty yards away. His flirtation technique is flashing the female, displaying his erect penis while keeping his back towards Nikkie, so that he can’t see what is going on. Nikkie, suspicions aroused, gets to his feet. Luit slowly shifts a few paces away from the female and sits down, once again with his back to Nikkie. He doesn’t want Nikkie to think that he is moving only because he has spotted Nikki’s advance. Nikkie moves slowly towards Luit, picking up a heavy stone on his way. Luit occasionally looks around to track Nikkie;s progress and then he looks back down at his penis. Only when his penis is flaccid does he turn around and walk towards Nikkie. And then, in an impressive demonstration, he sniffs the stone before wandering off to leave Nikkie alone with the female.

    Mark Rowlands adds:

    “Schemes and deception become so much more important when you are a faced with a creature capable of malice aforethought. Put yourself in Luit’s position, with Nikkie advancing on him, weapon in hand. If Luit had been a wolf, things would have gone much easier for him. The dominant male might have attacked, but Luit could easily have avoided serious punishment simply by submitting. But if Nikkie had been unconvinced by Luit’s deceptions, then he would have beaten Luit mercilessly, come what may. No matter how abject his apologies, and no matter how sincere his expressions of remorse, the outcome was going to be the same. A wolf will quickly forgive and forget. But an ape is driven by malice aforethought and is not so easily mollified. The ape is merciless to its peers in a way that the wold if not and could never be.

    The eighteenth-century Prussian philosopher Immanuel Kant once wrote, “Two things never cease to fill me with wonder: the starry skies above me and the moral law within me.’ Our intelligence and our morality, we think, distinguish us from all other animals. We are right.

    However rationality and morality do not come fully formed. Our rationality is both impressive and unique; but it is also a superstructure erected on a foundation of violence and the drive to acquire pleasure. In Nikkie also we find, in nascent form, the vaguest intimations of a moral sense: a primitive sense of justice. Luit avoided a serious beating because Nikkie could not find sufficient grounds for acting against him. But it is no accident that a sense of justice should first come embodied in an ape. When one ape attacks another, and this attack is carried out with malice aforethought, and cannot be deflected by ritual gestures of conciliation on the part of the victim, then it is important that these attacks do not occur too often. If they do, then the colony will soon disintegrate. And so, because of its malicious and violent character, we find in the ape at least the beginnings of a type of sensitivity. There is a part of Nikkie which recogniszes, albeit vaguely, that an attack on Luit must have grounds, where these are supplied by the presence of the appropriate evidence. The evidence provides his attack with justification so makes it warranted. Grounds, evidence; justification, warrant: only a truly nasty animal would have need for these concepts. The more unpleasant the animal, the more vicious it is, and the more insensitive to the possibility of conciliation, the more it has need of a sense of justice. Standing on its own, alone in all of nature, we find the ape: the only animal sufficiently unpleasant to become a moral animal.”

  118. 118
    JT

    * one half much more than the other.(Lucy)

    Totally supported by most of the other half. People who want power learn pretty quick who they can manipulate to get it for them. Women are just as brilliant as men. What they may lack in physical prowess they make up for we guile.

  119. 119
    H. E. Pennypacker

    @ Lucy

    “Well I’m concerned with the facts so far as it’s a fact that men carry out the vast, VAST, majority of violence.”
    And are the vast, VAST, majority of victims.

    “And with the fact that in every place where men have access to women (ie. in the home, in the bedroom, though not on the street) women make up the vast majority of their victims.”
    But are subjected to far lower levels of violence.

    It’s also strange – you argue that women are in danger of violence inside houses and men are in danger of violence in the street and yet it’s women who have to stay inside to stop themselves becoming victims of violence. Can you not see how insanely contradictory your views are? Can you not see the knots you’re tying yourself in so that you can convince yourself that women are always the greatest victims in every situation? Honestly?

    “So to summarise, you’d like it to be women’s look out?”
    What does this mean?

    “Not content that we’ve been living half lives taking evasive action against men for millennia with no prospect of any let up,”
    Unsubstantiated

    “not content that we’re being denied basic rights the world over,”
    Also happens to men.

    “beaten up,”
    happens to men FAR more regularly

    “shot with crossbows,”
    Happens to men FAR more regularly

    “buried alive,”
    Happens to men.

    “set on fire”
    Happens to men

    “and having acid chucked in our faces, not content that we then get blamed for it for being too flirty, being obviously female or being outside, we’ve also got to worry about men violently competing with one another for the right to do it?”

    Male violence is all about who gets to throw acid in a woman’s face of shoot them with a crossbow? Your worldview is so warped from reality. In every society from 20th century England and the female versifiers from the Great War like the ones I quoted above (and white feather campaigns etc.) to hunter gatherers living in the Amazon like the Achuar whose raids on rivals are often the result of men being goaded by female kin women play a large role in instigating and justifying male violence. Can you provide one example of a historically or ethnographically known culture where men were violent and the women roundly rejected this violence?

    “Don’t you think we’ve got enough on our plate? Count yourself lucky that we’re docile and not rioting or strapping explosives to ourselves, or having a war about this massive social injustice like the non-bigots do at the drop of a hat.”
    You do realise the vast majority of the worlds women don’t hate men like you do, right?

  120. 120
    Unphysicalism

    While the female does seem a bit beyond the scope of rationality, some of its points are valid. Most violence against males is the result of other males. Indeed, it is an instance of males doing it do each other. In the case of an inferior male being attacked by a superior, this is simply the natural dominance hierarchy in action. It (the weaker male) is being physically put in its place because it lacks the genetic supremacy warranting its right to procreate with females specimens. Why is this a problem? It would not make sense to have inferior males reproducing when better males are available.

    As for male violence against homosexual males, this is simply the same principle applied to males which are unlikely to actually possess a threat to the reproductive fitness of other males. Perhaps not the most efficient use of resources, but evolutionary logic suggests that there are very few pure homosexuals. Most instances throughout history involved so-called male homosexuals still breeding with females. Modern homosexuality as an identity is just a social construct. Any pure homosexuals would have been selected out of the gene pool long ago.

  121. 121
    summerblues

    JT: “Totally supported by most of the other half. People who want power learn pretty quick who they can manipulate to get it for them. Women are just as brilliant as men. What they may lack in physical prowess they make up for we guile.”

    Holy gods, finally. The other thread was literally making me nauseous with the man-hating with no acknowledgement of women’s nastiness. Why didn’t I speak up? Well, gee, I guess because I know that I’m going to be labeled a misogynist. Go figure.

    I’ve been on the receiving end of one woman’s, what would you call it, machinations? Mental and emotional games over a man with me being the target? And, boy howdy, was she good. I was crushed. I turned into something I ..am so ashamed of. I was the dumb fuck who couldn’t get out of the relationship. I couldn’t figure out what the hell was wrong. I was being told one thing by my boyfriend, but he would act differently, defend her poor little feelings to me. I told him it hurt. I was ignored. I was so stupid. I’d never encountered such bullshit before, especially by a woman. Lies and bullshit, games. Pregnancy saved me. “I don’t want it. We have to get rid of it.” I’m sure you can guess the rest of this tale: he walked away, I let him go (no sense in having him around anyway) and he went back to her. Found that out later. So I was right after all. My suspicions, I mean. I don’t want her dead or to rot in hell. If there was any justice in this world she would feel the same pain she inflicted on me. Life doesn’t work like that: she will probably go to her grave believing she is the victim. Haha. Two women in my life have earned the title “cunt” and she is one of them. Point of this sharing? Women can be and are just as vicious, nasty, self-serving, arrogant, deceitful, manipulative, abusive monsters…just like “men”. No, I do not support lies, mental and emotional games. Pls pardon spelling errors, etc. Not getting much sleep lately, sigh, new meds; gotta watch it.

  122. 122
    Raging Bee

    JT blithered thusly:

    @Lucy, Maybe you need to be more like a Bonobo then and the men in your life will become less like chimps…

    Lucy at least offered a few paragraphs of actual factual content. Your response shows you’re not even serious, let alone credible.

  123. 123
    Raging Bee

    Pennypacker: you’re not telling the whole story. When you say “happens to men,” you really need to add “…at the hands of other men.”

  124. 124
    Unphysicalism

    Also, the violence that happens to inferior men at the hands of superior men is a good thing. The weaker specimens should be thinned out. Effeminate men do not deserve to survive and reproduce. Stop acting like such creatures are victims. They are no more victims than euthanized retarded or crippled people. Violence against females, on the other hand, serves no purpose in improving the genetic fitness or survival of the species.

  125. 125
    sheaf

    Unphysicalism,

    I think people like Alan Turing did more for the human race than many of the most virile specimen in existence. BTW your userame is disturbingly stupid.

  126. 126
    Unphysicalism

    Alan Turing would be fine. The only difference is that instead of chemical castration, those humans which demonstrate genetic superiority but are also homosexual would be made, either through forced breeding or mandatory sperm donation, to produce offspring for the betterment of the human species. They can otherwise maintain their purposeless homosexual inclinations, insofar as such inclinations don’t threaten the spread of disease. The Greek and Roman civilizations had figured out this issue millenia ago. The Jewish practice of stoning homosexuals is inefficient when one finds genetically superior homosexual specimens.

  127. 127
    H. E. Pennypacker

    Raging Bee you’re ignoring the fact that in every society where women don’t actively encourage male violence, violence is incredibly rare. Surveying ethnographic literature, the more violent a society is the more women will instigate, encourage and justify male violence.

  128. 128
    JT

    Ah the Bee is back Buzzing after the weekend. Hope you had a nice one. :)

  129. 129
    JT

    Pennypacker: you’re not telling the whole story. When you say “happens to men,” you really need to add “…at the hands of other men.”(Bee)

    Im thinking if its only men that cause or do harm to other men because they are physically dominant, then, if and when change comes it will only be because of men as they are physically dominant and the only ones capable of getting things done. Follow your logic Bee, if its always men because of their physical dominance then how did feminism happen to make the changes it has in the last 50yrs. Is it only because of male agency? You do realize you are the epitome of a sexist because you fail to get past the dominance of physicality to see how the dominance of the mind can work. Humans make up this experience and the bad and the good of it come from both genders. Its freeing when you see women for who they really are the mirror of ourselves for better or worse.

  130. 130
    sheaf

    Uphysicalism, Instead of artificial selection, would it not be easier to form a collective cnscious, perfecting not only one but all people at the same time, and having the conscious experience of becoming a god like entity? After this I propose to use gravitational slings in order to catapult large objects with significant fractions of c towards other habitable planets to kill off those that could end my existence. It seems to me that my genocidal method of radical transformation towards perfection is more effective than yours.

  131. 131
    Lucy

    @H.E.Pennypacker

    “Male violence is all about who gets to throw acid in a woman’s face of shoot them with a crossbow? Warped, etc”

    Male violence is to establish a male hierarchy. The men who reach the top of the male hierarchy in a given situation, e.g. The local mafia boss, gangsta, Prophet, Taliban leader, theocratic star chamber, parliament, King, Dictator, is the one who creates the laws or in less sophisticated situations gets to throw his weight around, gets the pick of the women and keeps them in check. Laws that have women are prevented from having passports, driving, appearing in public, voting, laws that saw women being enslaved en masse as war booty, being in polygamous marriages where “rebellion” is punishable by beatings, getting buried alive, or beaten to death with blocks of concrete, where tribal tests of masculinity include thrashing a woman tied to a pole. He’s the one who gets to set the superstitious standard where girl’s teeth get filed down to let evil spirits out, or women get burned to death as witches, or have nails driven into their skulls to exorcise them. He’s the one who gives his woman a swift slap if she gets out of line or shows him up in front of his competitors. He’s the one who is sympathised with when his woman endangers his career by not being supportive, or tweeting things she shouldn’t.

  132. 132
    Lucy

    H.E.Pennypacker

    “Raging Bee you’re ignoring the fact that in every society where women don’t actively encourage male violence, violence is incredibly rare. Surveying ethnographic literature, the more violent a society is the more women will instigate, encourage and justify male violence.”

    Such as?

  133. 133
    Lucy

    @Unphysicalis,

    “Also, the violence that happens to inferior men at the hands of superior men is a good thing. The weaker specimens should be thinned out. Effeminate men do not deserve to survive and reproduce. Stop acting like such creatures are victims. They are no more victims than euthanized retarded or crippled people. Violence against females, on the other hand, serves no purpose in improving the genetic fitness or survival of the species.”

    Well sticking with evolutionary behaviour, non-lethal violence by males against females serves the purpose of keeping females sexually available and receptive. It’s no coincidence that traditionally, individual and state violence against women is directed at their sexuality: Virgin before marriage, loyal and perpetually available within in, usually married with only a cursory nod towards her consent. Achieved through a variety of methods ranging from FGM and restrictions on civil rights, through to shaming, ostracism, to corporal and capital punishment. We still of course have the remnants of this in our own culture with the “act like a slut be treated like a slut” adage and the victim blaming culture for sexual violence (ie. if you don’t tow the line there will be consequences). Sexual violence is fairly easy to understand in this context, those “inferior men” as you call them resort to circumventing the hierarchy and carrying out attacks, while the “alpha males” tend to have a sense of entitlement. Going back to the Philosopher and the Wolf, apparently only alpha males have sex with the females, non-alpha ones leave the pack and many never have sex.

    This biological imperative also probably goes some way to explaining step fathers killing previous males’ offspring, which is the highest cause of child homicides by non-biological parents.

  134. 134
    JT

    I just figured it out, Lucy lives in Saudi Arabia. It now all makes perfect sense.

  135. 135
    Lucy

    @Unphysicalis, and H.E. Pennypacker

    Re. the purpose of violence against women and women’s support for it, another interesting behavioural trait from our cousins:

    “The same sort of ability to understand the minds of others can also easily be seen when apes form alliances with and against each other. The key to any successful alliance – even a simple one – is to understand not only how your actions will affect others; equally importantly, it is to understand what sort of responses your actions will prompt in others. That is, you must understand the relationship between what you do and what others will do because of what you do.

    When another younger male, Nikkie had grown up sufficiently to form an alliance with Luit, together the two of them engaged in a policy of ‘punishing’ – i.e. meting out beatings – to the females, not for the sake of it but with the aim of demonstrating the incumbent alpha, Yeroen’s inability to protect them. After around four months of the prosecution of this policy, the females started to support Luit, almost certainly because they were fed up with the punishment they were continually receiving from the pair and because of Yeroen’s inability to prevent this.

    Following his ascension, Luit quickly changed his policy. As leader he now needed to change his attitude with respect to both the females and the other males. With the former, he relied on their general support and therefore adopted the even-handed keeper of the peace role. With the males, however he became a loser-supporter. That is, when he intervened in a conflict between two males, it was usually to support the loser. Thus, even though his rise to power had been secured with the help of Nikkie, he would routinely side with the other apes in their disputes with him. This made good sense, Nikkie might be strong enough to directly challenge his authority, and by supporting the losers he was increasing his support level in a potential conflict.”

  136. 136
    Lucy

    Anyway, I don’t want to labour the point because it’s probably annoying Ally Fogg. I think he prefers to concentrate on politico-economic causes of violence and inequality rather than our selfish genes.

    But in summary, I would say, we won’t be able to find solutions to our behaviour until we understand what it actually is. My view is that we are contending with complex cultural structures that are built on evolutionary ones and there will not be a significant change in anyone’s circumstances so long as we keep the same people with the same biological drivers in charge. But the good news is that in a world facing ecological disaster from over-population and therefore a need to reproduce less rather than more for the first time in any species’ history, we are on the cusp of the next millennia which is going to undergo a profound revolution in social behaviour.

  137. 137
    Lucy

    @JT

    “I just figured it out, Lucy lives in Saudi Arabia. It now all makes perfect sense.”

    I live in a world that contains Saudi Arabia.
    Also Afghanistan, Tunisia, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, the Ukraine, Russia, etc. One which put sanctions on South Africa because men were being denied their civil rights and their vote, but cosies up to one that denies women theirs.

    I also happen to live in a country where (I am advised) I am taking my life in my hands if I travel alone after dark or in remote places or flirt with a man and where I need to choose between children and a job. Who needs warzones and theocracies when that’s what counts as free?

  138. 138
    JT

    I also happen to live in a country where (I am advised) I am taking my life in my hands if I travel alone after dark or in remote places(Lucy)

    Welcome to my world too. I know it well as I have been physically assaulted several times in my life. Like I tell my kids, be smart, and when you cant run, FIGHT.

  139. 139
    H. E. Pennypacker

    “Male violence is to establish a male hierarchy.”

    You honestly believe that all violence has a single motive? Really? What about societies which involve in very little in-group violence but a large amount of out-group violence?

    “The men who reach the top of the male hierarchy in a given situation, e.g. The local mafia boss, gangsta, Prophet, Taliban leader, theocratic star chamber, parliament, King, Dictator, is the one who creates the laws”
    So who’s in charge out of the local gangster, the local head of the church or the King? Whose laws do I have to follow? If these guys are creating laws why do the overwhelming majority of laws remain completely unchanged with each new ruler and why do rulers have incredible difficulty in changing some laws? You seem to have an extremely simplistic conception of power and social structure.

    “or in less sophisticated situations gets to throw his weight around, gets the pick of the women and keeps them in check.”

    You’re going to have to explain to me what “less sophisticated situations” are.

    “Laws that have women are prevented from having passports, driving, appearing in public, voting, laws that saw women being enslaved en masse as war booty, being in polygamous marriages where “rebellion” is punishable by beatings, getting buried alive, or beaten to death with blocks of concrete, where tribal tests of masculinity include thrashing a woman tied to a pole. He’s the one who gets to set the superstitious standard where girl’s teeth get filed down to let evil spirits out, or women get burned to death as witches, or have nails driven into their skulls to exorcise them. He’s the one who gives his woman a swift slap if she gets out of line or shows him up in front of his competitors. He’s the one who is sympathised with when his woman endangers his career by not being supportive, or tweeting things she shouldn’t.”

    This is a long list of things that have probably happened in some time and place. I don’t really understand what the point of the list is.

    “Such as?”

    Well I can’t really provide an exhaustive list, this is simply a trend I’ve noticed but I’d invite you to provide exceptions. For a lack of female encouragement of violence being found in non-violent societies two examples that immediately spring to mind are the Muinane of the Colombian Amazon and the Nayaka of Southern India. For violence and female-encouragement of violence happening together there’s the Achuar example I’ve already cited (although from what I’ve read it seems to apply to most violent tribes in the Amazon) but also if you want to move to industrialised Western societies the sections of society that see high levels of violence also usually include higher female encouragement of violence which is evident in, for example, Philippe Bourgois’s ethnography of East Harlem ‘In Search of Respect’.

  140. 140
    H. E. Pennypacker

    That last post was @ 132 and 133

    @ 135 and 136 you’re not really making a point about human violence against women you’re telling a story about a few apes who were violent. I don’t really see why you’ve suggested it might be relevant to the discussion we’re having.

  141. 141
    Find A Local Man & Van Service

    I think that we should support local businesses by hiring a nearby
    ‘man and van’ to move any bulky packing cases.

  1. 142
    Consent & the Importance of Enthusiasm | CharleyPie

    […] deals with sex crimes (clue: focus is on the victims and not prevention; see Ally Fogg’s ‘Policy on Ending Sexual Violence – a thought experiment’) and our culture as a […]

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