I’ve written two posts this week about the topic of sexual harassment at conferences: Holy. Fucking. Shit. and Update/ Clarification/ Correction on “Holy. Fucking. Shit.” Both posts were about a report that was made to D.J. Grothe/JREF at TAM, about incidents in which a male attendee of TAM was (a) persistently harassing women even after having been asked to leave them alone multiple times, and (b) was carrying a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod in a crowd at ankle height, which created a strong suspicion on the part of some observers that he was surreptitiously taking photos up women’s skirts.

Both posts were focused on two points:

a) in the conversations about sexual harassment, there is a tremendous amount of goalpost-moving when it comes to the question of reporting — such that, no matter how formally or through what official channels the reports are made, it is never seen as good enough;

b (and more relevantly): D.J. Grothe’s claim that there had never, to his knowledge, been a report filed of sexual harassment at TAM, and that there have been zero reports of harassment at the TAMs they’ve put on while he’s been at JREF, is clearly false.

And both posts have had their comment threads completely derailed by extensive and minute examinations of whether monopod guy really was taking upskirt photos, and whether it was reasonable for people to suspect that he was taking upskirt photos, and what possible other reasons someone might have for carrying a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod in a crowd at ankle height, and whether or not these discussions have unfairly ruined Monopod Guy’s reputation, and other similar questions which have clearly become the focus of the community’s conversation about this.

For a larger context for these derailments, I propose looking at two posts:
Why “Yes, But” Is the Wrong Response to Misogyny on this blog,
The further hyper-skepticism stalling our conversation at Lousy Canuck.

So I am hereby creating a post that is specifically dedicated to discussing the actual points raised by the original post and its subsequent correction. Those points, again:

a) in the conversations about sexual harassment, there is a tremendous amount of goalpost-moving when it comes to the question of reporting — such that, no matter how formally or through what official channels the reports are made, it is never seen as good enough;

b (and more relevantly): D.J. Grothe’s claim that there had never, to his knowledge, been a report filed of sexual harassment at TAM, and that there have been zero reports of harassment at the TAMs they’ve put on while he’s been at JREF, is clearly false.

A couple of ground rules: Continue reading “"Holy. Fucking. Shit.": An Attempt to Discuss the Actual Issue” →

I have an update/ clarification/ correction to make on my recent Holy. Fucking. Shit. post. One of the twp people who made the report to JREF on the situation being discussed, Lee, has made a comment (and then some follow-up comments) clarifying what exactly happened in this situation, and what exactly was reported.

Quick note: Lee comments under the name Lee deLay, but prefers to be addressed simply as “Lee.” Also, while Lee is the “traumatized woman” mentioned in the original post, Lee is trans/ genderfluid, and uses they/them pronouns, despite presenting as female most of the time. When addressing Lee directly or speaking about them, please respect these wishes. (Side note: Readers might be interested in this post from the archives on the use of the singular “they.”)

Here is what Lee said in their comment:

Hi,
So I finally am catching up on everything that is going on and felt that I needed to speak up here as well as on the facebook page. I am the “traumatized woman” (though I am trans* genderfluid and use they/them pronouns, despite presenting as female most of the time) that is mentioned in the original post. I personally am the one who saw the camera and reported it to South Point security, I am one of the two people who filed formal, written and verbal complaints of the behavior (and other incidents) to the JREF and DJ at TAM last year.

What I actually reported and saw with the camera was a man, who I had issues earlier in the event with regards to personal space intrusions, with a camera pointing up on a telescoping rod at his ankle in a crowd of people many of whom were wearing skirts. I have a problem with this but I asked a friend, also a TAM attendee, if she had the same problem with it that I did and since she did we went to call security for the hotel. They came, it took some explanation and convincing but they went and talked to him. Last I saw of the camera after that he still had it so they must have just asked him to keep it above the waist.

I wouldn’t have reported to the JREF if he hadn’t continued to harass us despite us asking him to leave us alone multiple times and having other people ask him to leave us alone since he wouldn’t listen. Nothing was ever communicated to me on what happened or would happen though apparently my friend was able to get some response (which I just learned earlier today) though it wasn’t particularly satisfactory the fact that they are working to get a better policy is promising.

I don’t think DJ has handled this well no, BUT I also don’t like some of the comments that are being made that we are lying etc. When you ask someone to leave you alone, you listen. If you don’t that’s harassment. I /never/ said I say him taking pictures with the camera actively – only that it made me uncomfortable because there are a not a lot of reasons I can see to have a camera pointed up at your ankle in a crowd. I don’t care if he has a camera on a stick – just keep it above the waist.

On another note – it’s not just “non-penis bearing people” who are women. Some women have penises. Some men have vaginas. How about people who are wearing skirts? Genders a bit more complicated than that.

As for the naming names thing, my intention was never to ruin anyone. As such no, I don’t name names. Do I think something should be done? Yes. Did I want Buzzo’s name to be attached to it? Not particularly. I recognize that we are raised in a culture that says this BS is acceptable and so people will do things like this. It’s not okay and should be dealt with privately. But, as he has come out and publicly said it was him – yes that is who I complained about. Don’t ask me who filed with me, it is her choice if she wants to publicly state she filed with me.

Lee then followed up with this comment:

First – Please call me Lee, I am not used to people using my full name anymore, I only provide it because many know me as that still. Also, I use they/them pronouns not she/her. Thanks.

As to if I told DJ, yes I did on the last day of TAM when we filed a written report.

As to the question of if buzzo was actually taking pictures – I don’t know and frankly don’t care. My report was that he had a camera, facing up, at his ankle on a pole. It made me uncomfortable because the only reason I could think of for that to happen is taking upskirt photos. Do I know he was? No, how could I? I actively avoided him (for all the good that did me) I wasn’t exactly going to get near enough to see and frankly I didn’t want him to have a chance to take the pics if he was going to. I acted to call security because myself and others were uncomfortable with the behavior. Why is that a problem? Given the security people spoke with him and though weren’t entirely helpful didn’t tell us “well, since we don’t have proof he was taking pictures it’s legit” why are you asking me for physical proof? Is my discomfort and not feeling safe in an environment where I should be safe not important?

Lee has also made other comments in this discussion, here, here, here, here, here, and here. These comments are relevant to the discussion, but they largely repeat the information quoted above, so for the sake of brevity, I won’t quote all of them here.

So to summarize: The report made to JREF was not, “a male attendee of TAM had been using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts.” The report made was, “a male attendee of TAM was persistently harassing women even after having been asked to leave them alone multiple times, and was strongly and reasonably suspected of using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts.”

The original Facebook post and comment on this matter led me to believe that it was the former, but it was not — it was the latter.

None of this alters the point of my original post. Which is that:

a: in the conversations about sexual harassment, there is a tremendous amount of goalpost-moving when it comes to the question of reporting — such that, no matter how formally or through what official channels the reports are made, it is never seen as good enough;

b (and more relevantly): D.J. Grothe’s claim that there had never, to his knowledge, been a report filed of sexual harassment at TAM, and that there have been zero reports of harassment at the TAMs they’ve put on while he’s been at JREF, is clearly false.

The point of my post is not altered. But the truth matters to me, and it’s important to me to have the facts straight — especially in matters as important and controversial as this one. So I’m posting this update/ clarification/ correction. Please make note of it in future discussions of this topic. Thank you.

UPDATE: Comments on this post have been largely derailed away from the original points. Anyone wishing to discuss the actual points made in this post may do so in this new dedicated thread: “Holy. Fucking. Shit.”: An Attempt to Discuss the Actual Issue. Any attempts to derail the conversation in that new thread will result in being banned. Thank you.

UPDATE: There is an update/ clarification/ correction on this post. It is summarized at the end of this post, and explained in fuller detail here.

I haven’t been getting as involved in the recent “sexual harassment at atheist/ skeptical conferences” discussions as I would like to. This is my last week at my day job, and my time has been both much more limited and much more frazzling even than usual. Thus far, all I’ve said on the topic has been (a) this post, on what is and is not an appropriate community response to widespread second-hand reports about harassment; and (b) this post, on the sexual harassment policy/ code of conduct adopted by a recent polyamory conference, as an example of how an anti-harassment policy can be consistent with a sex-positive environment.

But I just saw this — and limited time or not, I had to speak.

Two women approach me and another conferee. They are pale and trembling. A man with a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod has been attempting to surreptitiously take photos up their skirts. Yes, he was attending TAM. They had taken concerns to conference organizers and got little satisfaction. Hotel security confiscated the camera. I later learned the individual was well-known and had been complained about in previous years, and yet there he was again.

And then this comment on the post from which the above is excerpted:

Though I was less traumatized and more seriously angry I am one of the people to report the upskirt photo thing along with multiple other incidents by the same person the last day at tam last year. We spoke to dj about it during the event, he said we would hear back on what was going to be done and never did. We followed up on it for a number of months and nothing happened so we gave up. Its part of what has very much frustrated me about tam and other such events is that even when we reported harassment we only got lip service on something actually being done. I know dj is busy and I don’t expect him to be the one to take care of things but I do expect there to be some response from the jref more than vacuous head patting.

And then this, from this latter commenter on the same post, in response to a question about whether she reported this incident in TAM’s anonymous post-event survey:

I reported it publicly to the JREF. In paper and in person to the head of security and even spoke to DJ at the event. The other person who I reported the multiple situations that occured with and I have both been trying since last TAM to find out what was going to happen with it and haven’t heard anything back. It’s been nearly a year now and they haven’t responded to us in over 6 months that I know of.

(Via Almost Diamonds.)

There is so much I could say. After I scream and curse and throw things at the wall, that is. There is so much I could say, so much I want to say. But my time and energy are limited… so for now, I’m just going to say two things.

First: In the conversations about sexual harassment at atheist/ skeptical conferences, I have noticed a tremendous amount of goalpost-moving when it comes to the question of reporting. “If you wanted something done about this harassment, why didn’t you tell anyone?” “Actually — I told someone on the JREF staff.” “Well, why didn’t you tell D.J. Grothe about it?” “Actually — I did tell D.J. about it.” “Well, why didn’t you report it in writing?” “Actually — I did report it in writing.” “Well, why didn’t you tell hotel security?” “Actually — I did tell hotel security.” “Well, why didn’t you send a written report in triplicate, to the police, to hotel security, and to D.J. Grothe, using registered mail so there could be a documented paper trail?”

Okay, that last one was sarcastic. I wish I could say the rest of it was.

As Ashley F. Miller pointed out in her excellent piece, Aren’t you making it up? – Why women don’t report harassment: When a woman is harassed and speaks out about it… even when she does everything “right”? Even when she has witnesses who are willing to make public statements; even when a complaint about the harassment gets made when the incident is happening and not later; even when the complaint isn’t being made about a well-known speaker; even when the target of the harassment is a known and respected member of the community with a platform from which to speak? She will still (a) be blamed for not reporting in the exact proper channels, and (b) get called a liar. In fact, the fact that she didn’t report through the exact proper channels (or rather, her critic’s idea of the exact proper channels) will be used to impugn her credibility. “Well, if this really happened, why didn’t you tell anyone?” Repeat goalpost-moving script above.

Second, and much more importantly:

D.J. Grothe, president of JREF and organizer of TAM, was told about these incidents.

D.J. Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM had been using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts.

And he nevertheless made this statement:

It should be said that there has never been a report filed of sexual harassment at TAM to my knowledge and there have been zero reports of harassment at the TAMs we’ve put on while I’ve been at JREF.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

I can only think of four possible explanations for this. All of which are entirely unacceptable.

1: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM had been using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts (UPDATE: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM was persistently harassing women even after having been asked to leave them alone multiple times, and was strongly and reasonably suspected of using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts) — but thinks this incident wasn’t “reported,” because he is defining “report” in the extremely narrow, weaselly, goalpost-moving way described above.

2: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM had been using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts (UPDATE: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM was persistently harassing women even after having been asked to leave them alone multiple times, and was strongly and reasonably suspected of using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts) — but he didn’t think this qualified as sexual harassment.

3: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM had been using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts (UPDATE: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM was persistently harassing women even after having been asked to leave them alone multiple times, and was strongly and reasonably suspected of using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts) — and lied about having been told this.

4: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM had been using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts (UPDATE: Grothe was told that a male attendee of TAM was persistently harassing women even after having been asked to leave them alone multiple times, and was strongly and reasonably suspected of using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts) — but he didn’t remember it.

I don’t know what to even begin saying about this.

Maybe some of you can say it for me?

Or maybe you feel that you should say it to JREF?

UPDATE: There is an update/ clarification/ correction on this post. It is explained in fuller detail here. Summary: The report made to JREF was not, “a male attendee of TAM had been using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts.” The report made was, “a male attendee of TAM was persistently harassing women even after having been asked to leave them alone multiple times, and was strongly and reasonably suspected of using a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod to surreptitiously take photos up women’s skirts.”

The original Facebook post and comment on this matter led me to believe that it was the former, but it was not — it was the latter.

None of this alters the point of this post. Which is that:

a: in the conversations about sexual harassment, there is a tremendous amount of goalpost-moving when it comes to the question of reporting — such that, no matter how formally or through what official channels the reports are made, it is never seen as good enough;

b (and more relevantly): D.J. Grothe’s claim that there had never, to his knowledge, been a report filed of sexual harassment at TAM, and that there have been zero reports of harassment at the TAMs they’ve put on while he’s been at JREF, is clearly false.

The point of my post is not altered. But the truth matters to me, and it’s important to me to have the facts straight — especially in matters as important and controversial as this one. So I’m posting this update/ clarification/ correction, and have corrected the post accordingly. Please make note of it in future discussions of this topic. Thank you.

SECOND UPDATE: Comments on this post have been largely derailed away from the original points. Anyone wishing to discuss the actual points made in this post may do so in this new dedicated thread: “Holy. Fucking. Shit.”: An Attempt to Discuss the Actual Issue. Any attempts to derail the conversation in that new thread will result in being banned. Thank you.