So what does it mean when people in the dance world — I repeat, the dance world — are shocked and confused at the sight of two men dancing together?
A couple weeks ago (I know, I’m behind the times, we Tivoed it and just watched it the other night), they premiered their new season. They started, as always, by showcasing highlights from the audition process. And they showed, for the first time in the show’s five- year history, an audition of two men doing ballroom dance together: Misha Belfer, and Mitchel Kibel.
Here, so you can judge for yourself, are a few samples of the judges’ comments. (For those who think I might be taking these out of context — or who just don’t feel that their blood pressure is high enough — a complete transcript of the judging scene is at the end of this piece.)
Nigel Lythgoe: “I’m certainly one of those people that really like to see guys be guys and girls be girls on stage. I don’t think I liked it, to be frank.”
Mary Murphy: This is the first time, honestly, for me to see it. I’m confused, because I see that sometimes you’re both being the female role and sometimes the male, so, like, and then sometimes you’ll do the trick and then he does it too. So it confuses me.
(Quick note from Greta: Switching back and forth rapidly between lead and follow in a dance — what I assume Mary meant by “the male role” and “the female role” — is unbelievably hard to do. It’s even harder to do it gracefully and seamlessly. The fact that these dancers were able to do this should not have been freaking these judges out. It should have been making them give high marks.)
Mary: It was hard for me to even kind of focus on that technique, ’cause I was still just trying to figure out… It would have been easier for me, in other words, if, if one person was playing the female role and one was playing the male role.
Sonya Tayeh: I’m saying that in the genre that I’ve seen, when I see this approach (gesturing), which, I usually see it from the female perspective. I relate more to it as a female. So I just get confused. You guys are both amazing, and the movement quality, but I was just confused in terms of the, the classical form.
Nigel: Do you know what? I’d like to see you both dancing with a girl.
Mary: I would, too.
Sonya: Me, too.
Nigel: You never know. You might enjoy that! (smirking) All right, see you later.
(And at this point, both dancers were sent on to the group choreography, so they could be judged on their dancing with women.)
I think it’s what I call “dance homophobia.” It’s something I’ve encountered in the dance world before. People are reasonably accepting of LGBT people and our LGBT-ness in our personal lives… but on the dance floor, it’s Heteronormative City. Men are supposed to be men, women are supposed to be women, each is supposed to dance in a certain way, and they’re bloody well supposed to dance with each other.
So it’s not like I’ve never encountered this before.
I was still shocked at the judges’ attitude, though. And my first reaction was to say, “You’re dance people. Are you really not familiar with same-sex ballroom dancing? Do you really not know that this is a thing? Do you really not know that this is being taught and danced at dance studios around the country and around the world? Do you really not know that it’s happening on a competitive level?”
And then I came up with a much, much better example.
Okay. Maybe they’ve never seen same-sex ballroom before.
For those of you who aren’t familiar with the dance world: That was a very snarky question. Mark Morris is one of the most famous, important, influential choreographers of our time. In the dance world, he is as famous and important and influential as Alvin Ailey or Twyla Tharpe. The judges of “So You Think You Can Dance” have absolutely heard of him.
And one of the things Mark Morris is most famous for — one of the single most defining features of his choreography — is gender fluidity.
I repeat: One of the most famous, important, influential choreographers of our time.
Shame on them.
(Full transcript of the judging scene is below the jump.)
Nigel Lythgoe: This is the first time we’ve had two guys do a samba for us. Um… I don’t really know what to say. It was a bit like watching Will Farrell in Blades of Glory, really. And certainly at the end where you both fell on your asses… Um… your styles were good, if I just stick with the dancing. I think you probably alienate a lot of our audience. I mean, we’ve always had the guys dance together on the show, but they’ve never really done it in each other’s arms before. I’m certainly one of those people that really like to see guys be guys and girls be girls on stage. I don’t think I liked it, to be frank. But if we just keep it down to your dancing rather than you dancing together in this style, I thought you were both — good. And strong. So thank you for coming and sharing a first with us.
Mary Murphy: This is the first time, honestly, for me to see it. I’m confused, because I see that sometimes you’re both being the female role and sometimes the male, so, like, and then sometimes you’ll do the trick and then he does it too. So it confuses me.
Misha (one of the dancers): When we switch back and forth, it makes the whole dance a little bit more difficult, since we go back and forth between lead and follow.
Mitchel (the other dancer): To show the strength of follow and lead.
Mary: Right. Which I can see. And you guys did lead and follow really well, I have to say. The technique, actually, still needs a lot of work. It was hard for me to even kind of focus on that technique, ’cause I was still just trying to figure out… It would have been easier for me, in other words, if, if one person was playing the female role and one was playing the male role.
Nigel: Well, I don’t think you want to see two guys there and think, “Male female.”
Sonya Tayeh: Okay, but what do you do with the feminine qualities of it?
Nigel: Well, that is what is, that is, that’s my hangup.
Misha: How is that feminine?
(crosstalk, can’t transcribe)
Sonya: I’m saying that in the genre that I’ve seen, when I see this approach (gesturing), which, I usually see it from the female perspective. Does that make sense?
Misha: Yes.
Sonya: That’s what I’m looking at — (to Mary) I’m sorry, I keep touching you (laughter) — I’m seeing this. (gesturing)
Nigel: Same sex judging! (laughter)
Sonya: I relate more to it as a female. So I just get confused. You guys are both amazing, and the movement quality, but I was just confused in terms of the, the classical form. That’s all.
Nigel: Do you know what? I’d like to see you both dancing with a girl.
Mary: I would, too.
Sonya: Me, too.
Nigel: You never know. You might enjoy that! (smirking) All right, see you later.
Great subject-matter and great article! Thanks! I look forward to same sex couples in the Swedish version.
I read about this when it happened and I was disgusted.
If they failed at the dance, sure. If they were poor dancers, send them packing. But the judge’s commentary was just a homophobic screed
When will people stop trying to force others into little boxes of very rigid and foolish roles?
“Nigel: You never know. You might enjoy that!”
I have no words. Just inarticulate rage. Whether they’ve seen a kajillion gay men and are very tolerant normally – THAT little comment can’t be anything but homophobia, pure and simple.
You’re trying to be fair Greta – but as is clear from the rest of your post the idea that they are completely ignorant of gender fluidity AND same-sex dancing… well surely there’s a limit to ignorance?
That’s why all that gender stereotyping and teaching of rigid roles screws everyone up. People can’t even function if they see something outside the narrow parameters they were brought up with and told were inviolate. It’s almost like their little brains explode over the new information. What a terrible way to live.
That part about “I think you alienate a lot of our audience” really makes me want to go out and punch things. I mean, c’mon guys, what is this, the 50s?
They say “confusing” as if that’s a bad thing. Magic shows are confusing for me, too, because I’m sitting there fascinated by the technique and puzzling over how they did it. So this sounds “confusing” in a “holy shit, that was fucking cool, how did they pull that off?!” sort of way.
That show made me sick and I was annoyed I WAS watching it with a relatively conservative couple so I couldn’t vent how homophobic and sexist it really was…
Then again they did fall down in the middle of the dance, I wish they hadn’t done that because there would have been less of an “excuse” for the judges behavior.
They didn’t just ‘fall down’ in the middle of the dance. The one guy tried to twirl the other around his body, something that would be easier with a small, female partner but looks much more difficult with a 6′ tall man, and they lost their balance and fell down. To me (very much a non-dancer) it looked like they fell down BECAUSE they were doing that trick as two men.
I don’t know anything about the switching back and forth between genders in dance, as a non-dancer that just enjoys the show, but I personally just did not enjoy their performance. I had no problem with the fact that they were both men. I did, however, have a problem with the judging, particularly Nigel’s “maybe you’ll enjoy it” comment. I’m a straight guy and I was offended by that.
With all due respect, do you think opposite- sex dance partners never, ever fall down?
Falling down happens. Even among very good dancers. (And not all female dancers are petite, many of them are tall… yet male dancers are expected to spin them.)
I’m not a good enough dance critic to be able to judge this couple’s dancing. But that’s really not the point. The point is the judges’ retrograde attitude towards the very notion of two men partner dancing together.
Minor side note:
I recall seeing in some documentary that Morris insists that any dancer in his company be able to lift any other dancer. This must keep out the anorexics.
I haven’t seen the show, but it seems that ballroom dance culture expects a tremendous amount of ‘gay-men-flinging-half-naked-chicks-around’ plus lots of sequins. Same sex dancers must frustrate a lot of expectations, as the apache dance cliches would have to be rethought.
Hmm just had a browse on youtube to see if they had it but no luck. Although I did find Mitch and misha performing at the 2009 Colorado Dancesport Showcase, so for those who haven’t seen them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZQ1lIVgTk
Yes, dancers fall down, but this time it was because he was thrown off balance by the weight and dimensions of the person he was slinging around him. If that had been a 100 pound girl (or guy) and not a 200 pound guy (or girl) that likely wouldn’t have been an issue. But I’m apparently referring more to size than gender here, so my point it moot.
And as I say above I was also very surprised and unhappy by the reaction of the judges.
How do you know that?
Let me put it this way: There is no way in hell they would have tried that move if they hadn’t already done it successfully a hundred times. You don’t just decide to do a difficult move like that on the spur of the moment — not in a major audition. This was clearly a move that they’d practiced and done successfully many times, and that they choreographed into their routine. They just muffed it this time.
I know it because I watched him throw him around his waist, fall toward the direction the guy’s inertia was pulling him, lose his balance and then fall on top of him in the direction he was spinning.
I agree they probably rehearsed that many times before falling over on TV. But I still hold that if the other person had been lighter, the inertia wouldn’t have caused them to fall over. However, as both men and women can be small and light, I was wrong to even bring it up, which I tried to say above.
I have run into this concept many times. The the me man-you woman dance thing is VERY ingrained.
I have square-danced for 50years and there is a sequence where the man-women team exchange place and the man dances the square as the woman and the lady dances the mans part. I have ‘broken the square’ many times because the men (always the men!!!) cant handle the change. I have done the switch successfully only with younger exabition dancers.
LOL! You americans. Same sex dancing has been on TV for years now and never confused the judges.
In australia, that is.
@ NiroZ: Holy hell! It’s not as though the aussies are a bastion of libralism and *they’re* ahead of these judges!
(And c’mon man, dancing is art. Art is *supposed* to be fluid and subversive! -or at least creative & original)
And yep -the “you might enjoy it” comment: what a dipshit!
Heh, I was going to raise that same point, NiroZ! I’ve seen at least three different male couples on “Strictly Dancing” and I thought they did a really good job. Mind you, that was on the ABC, not on the dreaded commercial channels.
“You Americans.”
What a patently uncalled-for, ignorant generalization. Nigel isn’t even American.
I was watching that show when it aired and my reaction was ‘Well, screw you!’ except not quite so polite. I found it ludicrous that they couldn’t wrap their tiny little minds around two guys dancing with each other especially since – and you think dancing ‘experts’ would know this – the tango was originally danced by two men. If you haven’t seen this video yet, you should:
Those two men would blow any of those judges out of the water on sheer talent alone.
(posted by Greta on Charles’s behalf, since he was having trouble commenting)
Here is the video of the audition Greta was describing:
JG: Nope, sorry, it wasn’t because he was a larger guy/partner. I’m a very petite female, small boned, 115 lbs soaking wet and *I’ve* been thrown and dropped before.
It has nothing to do with the extra weight, it has to do with the fact that the lead in that particular instance was off-balance when he began the move. It happens to everyone, regardless of weight and/or experience (I’ve been dancing for 12 years and have competed in the past, so I have some knowledge in this area).
In fact, watch Dancing With The Stars sometime. They show the behind-the-scenes footage of the practice sessions, and some of these big, beefy sports athletes attempt to throw around the tiny pro dancers … and fail miserably, sometimes to the tune of ambulances.
For anyone who didn’t see it, I found a clip of the show, their dance, and the comments, and I have it embedded in my own rant about this episode, over at my own livejournal (add 159338.html to the end of the link on my name)
Thanks, Greta, for posting about this. Your comments helped clarify my own thoughts enough to rant, although yours is still much more eloquent. At first, all I really could do was growl incoherently with rage. I expect that kind of behaviour from the ignorant, homophobic rednecks I work with (case in point, the backstage crew at Trockadero, the men’s ballet), but not professional, worldly dance judges.
WTF? In the Canadian version of the show, they had some behind the scenes footage of two of the best men (in the top 20), both ballroom specialists, demonstrating a ballroom dance together. No one cared (well, most found it funny, but the dancing was obviously good). I’m surprised and disappointed with the judges.
Btw, I have seen a contemporary dance involving two guys in skirts. I get the impression this is somewhat normal in the contemporary dance world. So again, what’s their problem?
Just catching up; I’m a bit late – but not at all surprised by the appalling ignorance / homophobia of the ballroom dance world. That genre is _based_ so deeply, intrinsically, on gendered dancing; it’s depressing and enraging that the judges can’t transcend that, but it’s not a surprise.
I’ve been just as frustrated by other kinds of social dances that presume separate, gendered roles for dance partners — swing, salsa, turning dances like waltzes / polkas/ etc., even the contra & English country dancing that have been the center of my life for decades. (Besides the playful delight in dancing both roles, switching in the middle of a dance sequence, I can testify that you *really* know the dance when you can do this!)
But — when folks try to break out of the gender assumptions (in queer contra and/or square dancing, queer swing / couple dancing, or even non-gender-specific ECD), all too often they just replace the words “men” and “women” with “leader” and “follower”, or “armbands” and “bare arms” — and assume that dancers fall into only one of those roles. I use those same terms myself when calling, because often there’s no other easily comprehensible way to explain the dance choreography — but it galls me every time. It’s like forcing us into butch/femme dichotomies, fer cryin’ out loud!
I’ve come to the conclusion that for some dances, maybe some dance genres, there’s really no way to do them gender-fluidly without blowing up the genre and reconstituting it. About time, say I – let’s do it.
Something tells me if the show weren’t on FOX then they wouldn’t have been obligated to mentioned how ‘weird’ it was.
If not that, then I think it’s just a problem in the dance world which can actually be conservative in terms of what should be done and what shouldn’t be…typical of a trade that requires many years to learn…the older students don’t appreciate the younger one’s modifying the art and removing authority from the seniority
Where the homophobia came into play was with Nigel’s idiotic “who knows, you might like it” comment, when he suggested they try dancing with female partners.
As an ex ballroom and ballet dancer, and a man who has danced many times with other men, I can attest to just how difficult the role switching is in same-sex partner dancing.
These two guys, despite that SINGLE fall they had, danced in a very masculine fashion – considerably MORE than can be said for many of the “straight” ballroom dancers they’ve had on SYTYCD.
OK, I’m a dance instructor (salsa), and I can dance in either role (as can many instructors). I occassionally dance with men, and I am certainly not gay (indeed, before my marriage I was accused of being a serial fornicator). It’s fun once in a while with a guy who’s a good dancer and has a good attitude about it.
But this is a dance contest. The general attitude of the American public is they agree that gay people should be allowed to live their private lives free from harassment. They do not, however, want to see it everywhere. This display is too in your face. People find homosexual public displays of affection disconcerting. And this smacks of that.
Again, there are points where this kind of challenge to the status quo is counter-productive. The American public has just gotten used to the idea of allowing homosexuals to lead their private lives in the manner they choose. Let them digest that before seeking another rung up the ladder.
John: Are you fucking kidding me? If it’s a dance contest, it should be a dance contest — not a contest about how the American people do or don’t feel about homosexuality.
And in any case, getting in people’s faces is exactly how we change people’s minds. How else are people going to reconsider their attitudes if they aren’t forced to think about them? There has never once been a social change movement that succeeded by being quiet and discreet. To say that same-sex couples should stay closeted and discreet until straight people are comfortable with us is completely backwards — people aren’t going to get comfortable with us until they’ve seen us lots and lots and lots. And it’s grotesquely unjust in the bargain.
It is how you change peoples minds. It’s also how you harden their positions. This reminds me of the environmentalist movement. I don’t listen to them anymore. I am sick and tired of them because their negative drumbeat is so incessant, then when I see an environmental headline in the paper or on the net, I just skip it. The constant harping made me resent them. Now I find myself hoping the Japanese sink the anti-whaling vessels – even though I loathe whaling.
As for being in your face to achieve social change, I don’t suppose you’ve heard of the Englightenment? This was not achieved by demonstration or being in your face. It was achieved by intellectual discourse. And it was the single most important social change in human history.
As I said before, if you push for too much, too fast, you often get less than if you push for critical things, achieve them, and then let them sink in and get absorbed by society.
You are only one person. Many other people react differently. The environmental movement has been extremely successful in getting millions of people around the world to think about the impact of their everyday actions on the earth and the ecosystem, and to change their behavior accordingly. The fact that you, personally, find it annoying is insufficient reason to change tactics.
And again, the entire history of social change movements proves you wrong. The most effective method of creating social change seems to be a combination of radical confrontationalism and moderate diplomacy. (And btw, many Enlightenment thinkers were very much considered to be unacceptably radical and extremist.)
What’s more, based on your comments, you clearly seem strongly resistant to the very idea of being asked to make any changes that you find disturbing or inconvenient. I see no reason to tailor my activism to your particular wishes, as it is unlikely to reach you no matter how I go about it. Your concern is duly noted. Thank you for sharing.
I have a *strong* preference for following when ballroom dancing.
You probably can guess how hard it is to get anyone to dance with at a local level. Mostly, only people who know both the leading and following parts will even consider dancing the lead with a male follower. These are mostly women, interestingly; right now, only a few men ever bother to learn to follow, but significantly more women learn to lead.
Idle thought after reading this post and particularly Lise’s comment on June 10, 2009 at 10:29 PM.
Some contra dance composers/callers should try creating three-role dances, probably based off of triplets facing triplets — with distinct roles for each of the three members of the triplet. I suspect such dances may already exist…