This has been a hard piece to write, and it may be a hard one to read. I’m not going to be as polite and good-tempered as I usually am in this blog; this piece is about anger, and for once I’m going to fucking well let myself be angry.
But I think it’s important. One of the most common criticisms lobbed at the newly-vocal atheist community is, “Why do you have to be so angry?” So I want to talk about:
1. Why atheists are angry;
2. Why our anger is valid, valuable, and necessary;
And 3. Why it’s completely fucked-up to try to take our anger away from us.
So let’s start with why we’re angry. Or rather — because this is my blog and I don’t presume to speak for all atheists — why I’m angry.
*****
I’m angry that atheist conventions have to have extra security, including hand-held metal detectors and bag searches, because of fatwas and death threats.
I’m angry that atheist soldiers — in the U.S. armed forces — have had prayer ceremonies pressured on them and atheist meetings broken up by Christian superior officers, in direct violation of the First Amendment. I’m angry that evangelical Christian groups are being given exclusive access to proselytize on military bases — again in the U.S. armed forces, again in direct violation of the First Amendment. I’m angry that atheist soldiers who are complaining about this are being harassed and are even getting death threats from Christian soldiers and superior officers — yet again, in the U.S. armed forces. And I’m angry that Christians still say smug, sanctimonious things like, “there are no atheists in foxholes.” You know why you’re not seeing atheists in foxholes? Because believers are threatening to shoot them if they come out.
I’m angry that it took until 1961 for atheists to be guaranteed the right to serve on juries, testify in court, or hold public office in every state in the country.
And on that topic: I’m angry that school boards all across this country are still — 82 years after the Scopes trial — having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools. School boards are not exactly loaded with time and money and resources, and any of the time/ money/ resources that they’re spending fighting this stupid fight is time/ money/ resources that they’re not spending, you know, teaching.
I’m angry that women are having septic abortions — or are being forced to have unwanted children who they resent and mistreat — because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
I get angry when advice columnists tell their troubled letter-writers to talk to their priest or minister or rabbi… when there is absolutely no legal requirement that a religious leader have any sort of training in counseling or therapy.
And I get angry when religious leaders offer counseling and advice to troubled people — sex advice, relationship advice, advice on depression and stress, etc. — not based on any evidence about what actually does and does not work in people’s brains and lives, but on the basis of what their religious doctrine tells them God wants for us.
I’m angry that so many believers treat prayer as a sort of cosmic shopping list for God. I’m angry that believers pray to win sporting events, poker hands, beauty pageants, and more. As if they were the center of the universe, as if God gives a shit about who wins the NCAA Final Four — and as if the other teams/ players/ contestants weren’t praying just as hard.
I’m especially angry that so many believers treat prayer as a cosmic shopping list when it comes to health and illness. I’m angry that this belief leads to the revolting conclusion that God deliberately makes people sick so they’ll pray to him to get better. And I’m angry that they foist this belief on sick and dying children — in essence teaching them that, if they don’t get better, it’s their fault. That they didn’t pray hard enough, or they didn’t pray right, or God just doesn’t love them enough.
And I get angry when other believers insist that the cosmic shopping list isn’t what religion and prayer are really about; that their own sophisticated theology is the true understanding of God. I get angry when believers insist that the shopping list is a straw man, an outmoded form of religion and prayer that nobody takes seriously, and it’s absurd for atheists to criticize it.
I’m angry that Mother Teresa took her personal suffering and despair at her lost faith in God, and turned it into an obsession that led her to treat suffering as a beautiful gift from Christ to humanity, a beautiful offering from humanity to God, and a necessary part of spiritual salvation. And I’m angry that this obsession apparently led her to offer grotesquely inadequate medical care and pain relief at her hospitals and hospices, in essence taking her personal crisis of faith out on millions of desperately poor and helpless people.
I’m angry at the trustee of the local Presbyterian church who told his teenage daughter that he didn’t actually believe in God or religion, but that it was important to keep up his work because without religion there would be no morality in the world.
I’m angrier when religious leaders explicitly tell children — and adults, for that matter — that the very questioning of religion and the existence of hell is a dreadful sin, one that will guarantee them that hell is where they’ll end up.
I’m angry that children get taught by religion to hate and fear their bodies and their sexuality. And I’m especially angry that female children get taught by religion to hate and fear their femaleness, and that queer children get taught by religion to hate and fear their queerness.
I’m angry about the Muslim girl in the public school who was told — by her public-school, taxpayer-paid teacher — that the red stripes on Christmas candy canes represented Christ’s blood, that she had to believe in and be saved by Jesus Christ or she’d be condemned to hell, and that if she didn’t, there was no place for her in his classroom. And I’m angry that he told her not to come back to his class when she didn’t convert.
And I’m angry that Jerry Falwell blamed 9/11 on pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians, the ACLU, and the People For the American Way. I’m angry that the theology of a wrathful God exacting revenge against pagans and abortionists by sending radical Muslims to blow up a building full of secretaries and investment bankers… this was a theology held by a powerful, widely-respected religious leader with millions of followers.
I’m angry that, when my dad had a stroke and went into a nursing home, the staff asked my brother, “Is he a Baptist or a Catholic?” And I’m not just angry on behalf of my atheist dad. I’m angry on behalf of all the Jews, all the Buddhists, all the Muslims, all the neo-Pagans, whose families almost certainly got asked that same question. That question is enormously disrespectful, not just of my dad’s atheism, but of everyone at that nursing home who wasn’t a Baptist or a Catholic.
I’m angry about Ingrid’s grandparents. I’m angry that their fundamentalism was such a huge source of strife and unhappiness in her family, that it alienated them so drastically from their children and grandchildren. I’m angry that they tried to cram it down Ingrid’s throat, to the point that she’s still traumatized by it. And I’m angry that their religion, which if nothing else should have been a comfort to them in their old age, was instead a source of anguish and despair — because they knew their children and grandchildren were all going to be burned and tortured forever in Hell, and how could Heaven be Heaven if their children and grandchildren were being eternally burned and tortured in Hell?
I’m angry that huge swaths of public policy in this country — not just on same-sex marriage, but on abortion and stem-cell research and sex education in schools — are being based, not on evidence of which policies do and don’t work and what is and isn’t true about the world, but on religious texts written hundreds or thousands of years ago, and on their own personal feelings about how those texts should be interpreted, with no supporting evidence whatsoever — and no apparent concept of why any evidence should be needed.
I get angry when believers trumpet every good thing that’s ever been done in the name of religion as a reason why religion is a force for good… and then, when confronted with the horrible evils done in religion’s name, say that those evils weren’t done because of religion, were done because of politics of greed or fear or whatever, would have been done anyway even without religion, and shouldn’t be counted as religion’s fault. (Of course, to be fair, I also get angry when atheists do the opposite: chalk up every evil thing done in the name of religion as a black mark on religion’s record, but then insist that the good things were done for other reasons and would have been done anyway, etc. Neither side gets to have it both ways.)
(Note: The litany of specific grievances is now more than halfway over. Analysis of why anger is necessary and valuable is coming up soon. Promise.)
I get angry when religious believers make arguments against atheism — and make accusations against atheists — without having bothered to talk to any atheists or read any atheist writing. I get angry when they trot out the same old “Atheism is a nihilistic philosophy, with no joy or meaning to life and no basis for morality or ethics”… when if they spent ten minutes in the atheist blogosphere, they would discover countless atheists who experience great joy and meaning in their lives, and are intensely concerned about right and wrong.
I get angry when believers use the phrase “atheist fundamentalist” without apparently knowing what the word “fundamentalist” means. Call people pig-headed, call them stubborn, call them snarky, call them intolerant even. But unless you can point to the text to which these “fundamentalist” atheists literally and strictly adhere without question, then please shut the hell up about us being fundamentalist.
I get angry when religious believers base their entire philosophy of life on what is, at best, a hunch; when they ignore or reject or rationalize any evidence that contradicts that hunch or calls it into question… and then accuse atheists of being close-minded and ignoring the obvious truth.
I get angry when believers say that they can know the truth — the greatest truth of all about the nature of the universe, namely the source of all existence — simply by sitting quietly and listening to their heart… and then accuse atheists of being arrogant. (This isn’t just arrogant towards atheists and naturalists, either. It’s arrogant towards people of other religions who have sat just as quietly, listened to their hearts with just as much sincerity, and come to completely opposite conclusions about God and the soul and the universe.)
I get angry when believers say things like, “Yes, of course, the human mind isn’t perfect, we see what we expect to see, we see faces and patterns and intention when they aren’t necessarily there… but that couldn’t be happening with me. The patterns I see in my life… they couldn’t possibly be coincidence or confirmation bias. I’m definitely seeing the hand of God.” (And then, once again, those same believers accuse atheists of being close-minded and only seeing what we want to see.)
I get angry when believers say at the beginning of an argument that their belief is based on reason and evidence, and at the end of the argument say things like, “It just seems that way to me,” or, “I feel it in my heart”… as if that were a clincher. I mean, couldn’t they have said that at the beginning of the argument, and not wasted my fucking time? My time is valuable and increasingly limited, and I have better things to do with it than debating with people who pretend to care about evidence and reason but ultimately don’t.
I get angry when believers treat any criticism of their religion — i.e., pointing out that their religion is a hypothesis about the world and a philosophy of it, and asking it to stand up on its own in the marketplace of ideas — as insulting and intolerant. I get angry when believers accuse atheists of being intolerant for saying things like, “I don’t agree with you,” “I think you’re mistaken about that,” “That doesn’t make any sense,” “I think that position is morally indefensible,” and “What evidence do you have to support that?”
I get angry when believers respond to some or all of these offenses by saying, “Well, that’s not the true faith. Hating queers/ rejecting science/ stifling questions and dissent… that’s not the true faith. People who do that aren’t real (Christians/ Jews/ Muslims/ Hindus/ etc.).” As if they had a fucking pipeline to God. As if they had any reason at all to think that they know for sure what God wants, and that the billions of others who disagree with them just obviously have it wrong. (Besides — I’m an atheist. The “They just aren’t doing religion right” argument is not going to cut it with me. I don’t think any of you have it right. To me, it all looks like something that people just made up.)
On that topic: I get angry when religious believers insist that their interpretation of their religion and religious text is the right one, and that fellow believers with an opposite interpretation clearly have it wrong. I get angry when believers insist that the parts about Jesus’s prompt return and all prayers being answered are obviously not meant literally… but the parts about hell and damnation and gay sex being an abomination, that’s real. And I get angry when believers insist that the parts about hell and damnation and gay sex being an abomination aren’t meant literally, but the parts about caring for the poor are really what God meant. How the hell do they know which parts of the Bible/ Torah/ Koran/ Bhagavad-Gita/ whatever God really meant, and which parts he didn’t? And if they don’t know, if they’re just basing it on their own moral instincts and their own perceptions of the world, then on what basis are they thinking that God and their sacred texts have anything to do with it at all? What right do they have to act as if their opinion is the same as God’s and he’s totally backing them up on it?
Which brings me to the other part of this little rant: Why atheist anger is not only valid, but valuable and necessary.
*****
There’s actually a simple, straightforward answer to this question:
Because anger is always necessary.
I mean, why the hell else would people bother to mobilize social movements? Social movements are hard. They take time, they take energy, they sometimes take serious risk of life and limb, community and career. Nobody would fucking bother if they weren’t furious about something.
But unless we’re actually endangering or harming somebody, it is not up to believers to tell atheists when we should and should not use this tool. It is not up to believers to tell atheists that we’re going too far with the anger and need to calm down. Any more than it’s up to white people to say it to black people, or men to say it to women, or straights to say it to queers. When it comes from believers, it’s not helpful. It’s patronizing. It comes across as another attempt to defang us and shut us up. And it’s just going to make us angrier.
And you know what else? I think we need to have some goddamn perspective about this anger business. I mean, I look at organized Christianity in this country — not just the religious right, but some more “moderate” churches as well — interfering with AIDS prevention efforts, trying to get their theology into the public schools, actively trying to prevent me and Ingrid from getting legally married, and pulling all the other shit I talk about in this piece.
And I look at atheists sometimes being mean-spirited and snarky in blogs and books and magazines.
And I think, Can we please have some goddamn perspective?
If you’re doing that, then with all due respect, you can blow me.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled attempts at civility.
Addendum: If you’re having trouble commenting, seeing your comment, or reading the other comments on this post, please read this. Thanks.
Addendum 2: I’ve written a reply to the most common themes that are coming up in the comments here. If you’re going to comment on this post, you might want to check it out first.
Addendum 3, 11/9/11: Yes, I realize that the pie chart on the Gallup Poll thing is wrong. The 45% number is correct — follow the link — but when I made the pie chart to illustrated it, I goofed it. I would have corrected it, but enough people have commented on it that I thought it best to leave it alone.)
I used to answer medical questions on a couple of online fora, and would occasionally wander into their religion areas. I’d point to the huge inconsistencies in the arguments that god is omniscient and omni-powerful… and that most christians argue that the reason to do good is to reap eternal reward or avoid eternal punishment — a damn selfish reason. I’d point out that a god that would create humans imperfect — as christians say — means that he deliberately did so knowing most couldn’t follow his rules and would therefore boil in oil for eternity. Give them life for the blink of an eye, set up some rules that billions can’t follow, burn them for a trillion years times a trillion. Sort of a pervert, seems to me. And that if you believe in the power of prayer, you must also believe that god is fallable or capricious or both. Anyhow, one person with whom I was making these arguments said I’d caused him to question his faith. So I stopped posting there. Made me feel bad. Now, if people truly keep their religion to themselves, it’s ok by me. But as it’s becoming more and more public, and the effect is to dumn down our entire country and to poison our politics to the point of hopelessness, as the effect of “religion” is to perpetuate hate for entire classes of people, it’s time to start talking again. You give it a heck of a start.
All this anger is well-directed, as far as I’m concerned. I think emotions are the body’s way of telling us that something is not right and needs to be corrected. You’re right, if there was no anger, nothing would change. Anger is a very useful force, but gets a bad name from people who can’t be angry without being blatantly aggressive and destructive.
As for the previous comment, congratulations to the author for getting someone to question their faith. I have spiritual beliefs, but they are completely different from what they were twenty years ago, and will probably be different twenty years from now. It seems to me that having one concrete set of beliefs and attitudes for a lifetime would feel very confining and boring, whether those beliefs included spiritual aspects or not. (This is not a dig at athiesm. The happy atheists that I know have evolved their beliefs over the course of a lifetime, and their ethics and philosophies continue to evolve.) I just wonder, as a person who welcomes new information and perspectives, what it must be like to be so insecure in one’s beliefs that questioning them brings about a crisis.
This is a fantastic and, honestly, sometimes emotionally difficult piece to read. As an agnostic spiritual humanist, as someone who feels spirituality but doesn’t buy into religion, I’m also angry about a ton of these things. But some of them, I think I understand why theists fear your anger. (Specifically: “I get angry when believers treat any criticism of their religion — i.e., pointing out that their religion is a hypothesis about the world and a philosophy of it, and asking it to stand up on its own in the marketplace of ideas — as insulting and intolerant.”)
It’s because they’re afraid that atheists are going to take away their faith from them. Not change their minds, so much, but rather not allow them to have the faith, the spirituality, that gives so much to their lives.
I’m all about people believing or not believing what they want, as long as they don’t force it on other people, and as long as it harms noone. I understand how important it is to point out the flaws and fallacies in religion for people who accept their religion as right not just for themselves but for everyone. But when you try to point out these things to someone who wants to mind their own business with their religion, it feels like you’re out to take their religion away from them by proving them wrong. It feels like you want to dissolve that which gives them joy and hope by proving it illogical and irrelevant. As someone who recognizes the fallacies of religion, but still has extremely powerful emotional response via spirituality, which can be triggered by the trappings of religion, it feels like, when people argue with what works for us, you’re out to take that away from people who feel it. I believe some people are wired to want religion, to need it, to crave it, and others aren’t. Of course, I have no formal data to back this up, but I’d love to see a study done on it. As long as those people don’t force their views on other people, what’s wrong with having religion or faith? (Now, agreed, quite a few people of faith DO try to force it on other people, and I’m right up there with you, fighting back.)
And I think the outside world needs to ask: what is it that you, the atheists, want? We (at least, now) know WHY you’re angry… but, in the words of social movements, what are your demands? What is it that you’d like to see changed? Is it a world without belief, without religion? (I doubt it… few atheists that at least I know are that militant or “hardcore”.) Is it mere acknowledgment of your existence? Is it a greater sensitivity and awareness in our relations and laws? What is it that atheists want?
For surely you don’t WANT to be angry. (Well, maybe some do. Anger can be quite intoxicating.) You’ve been forced into anger, at the breaking point, so that you can get your needs met.
What is it that atheists really want?
You’re beautiful when you’re angry!
I kid, I kid. But you make an incredible point: we aren’t going to convince the godheads that they’re wrong – about the things that you’ve noted and more – by, as you say, gnawing on their ankles.
Awesome post!
“Are you really looking at all of this shit I’m talking about, a millennia-old history of abuse and injustice, deceit and willful ignorance — and then on the other hand, looking at a couple of years of atheists being snarky on the Internet — and seeing the two as somehow equivalent?”
No. Repeating pseudohistory about beliefs in Mithras or Osiris isn’t nearly as dangerous or far-reaching as the pseudohistory of creationism. Quote-mining John Adams to make him look like an atheist isn’t quite as pernicious as quote-mining him to making him look like an orthodox Christian. An implausible slandering of a majority as cretins or nuts is far less of a hazard as an slander of a minority, like atheists, that is treated as fact. But it is still pseudohistory. It is still quote-mining. It is still slander. And two wrongs do not make a right.
Me, too.
Er.. Galileo was treated with kid gloves. His long-standing friendship with then-pope Urban VIII certainly helped, although calling him a simpleton in print didn’t. But he had very good reason to fear, because Giordano Bruno had been burned at the stake for heresy a few years earlier.
I really wish people would remember remember Bruno a little more.
Me, too.
c4bl3fl4m3: “What is it that atheists really want?”
Depends. For some atheists, the agenda is to be treated like human beings and accepted as first-class citizens. For others, it is to knock back the influence of religion or get rid of it altogether. For yet others, it is the promotion of evidence-based thinking over trust in handed-down traditions that are less than trustworthy.
And good point about dogma. I’ve never read more than snippets the damned thing, but even I know that the catholic bible and the protestant bible are different, and the Lutheran and Calvinist branches of protestantism disagree on what the sixth commandment says.
A few months ago I startled someone who had never noticed that the first two books of Genesis flatly contradict each other. Did Yahweh make animals before man (Genesis 1:21â26) or after (Genesis 2:19)?
I’ll have a civil discussion with a theologian, but some stupid yahoo quoting a book at me that he understands less that I understand Thorne, Misner, Wheeler & Wheeler’s _Gravitation_ can stick it where the sun don’t shine.
Beautiful, Greta! This post is a perfect example of why this is fast becoming one of my favorite sites for atheist writing.
This is what a rant should be – bracing, clear, well-informed, and guided by energy and passion. Applause!
In my experience, atheists are no angrier than the average person, and possibly less angry. Why shouldn’t we be? We have a whole universe full of beauty and mystery to explore, more than sufficient reason for happiness. The only time we get angry is when we’re confronted by hatred and injustice committed in the name of religion (as well as evil and injustice in general, of course, the same as everyone else). We’re stirred to anger when seeing these evils, as any person with a functioning conscience would be. If we seem like we’re angry often, well, that’s just because there are *so many* evils committed in God’s name. What would be a far more serious indictment of atheists, in my mind, would be if we *weren’t* angry at the perpetrators of such crimes.
The important thing, when feeling angry, is to let it stir you to useful action. As you pointed out, righteous anger at injustice has been the driving force for many of the most important movements for social change. For people to truly get involved in a cause, to truly work at it, it *has* to stir them to strong emotion. The bad thing isn’t anger itself, but misdirected anger that’s unleashed without reason or justification. But when controlled in the service of reason and aimed at those who truly deserve our opprobrium, it can be a positive and valuable feeling.
To the commenter who asked what atheists want, I’d suggest the answer is that we want the same thing as everyone else: to live in peace and security and to have the freedom to guide our lives as we see fit, free of outside interference and oppression. We don’t want to take away anyone’s right to worship as they see fit (pace the usual disclaimers about that worship not itself involving harm of the unconsenting). By all means, believe in whatever crazy things you like. But let your belief stay *your* belief, and don’t try to intrude on our lives and demand that we conform to your rules or pay taxes to support your convictions.
Right on, sister. Great article. This is something I’ve felt strongly about since a very young age.
Too many people have lost their rights, their families, their homes, their livelihoods, their lives “in the name of one “god” or another.”
Religion too often gives people a mask and an excuse to dish out evil.
Great post, you are right it is just the very tip of the iceberg. what about the church group when i was a child that told me that women were second class citizens and should never teach men or wear shorts around them. And that rock music is from the devil but beethoven beating his wife is cool and groovy.
Telling me as a young person that all the people who had never heard of christianity and died would rot in purgatory for ever.
the whole thing was poisonous but at least it awakened my nascient feminism.
Yes, you are beautiful when you are angry Greta. Keep it up!
I find that some days I’m athiest (as I was raised by Athiest parents), and some days I’m Unitarian and or a Tantric/GoddessWorshiper/Pegan/Sufi/Methodist, and more. i’m an enjoyer and explorer of many religions. I find both can co-exist quite nicely. Depending on the day and what is happening. I’m “fluid” when it comes to Athiesm and Religion. Like with my sexuality. Some days I’m queer, and some days I’m kinky, other days straight as can be, or even asexual. In any case, I certainly resonate in every way with your blog today. Actually I find snake handling churches super interesting lately.
Annie Sprinkle (anniesprinkle.org)
One point I’d like to make is that it’s mathematically provable that a contradiction implies anything. So, for example, starting with the premise that 1=2 I can prove, by an impeccable chain of logic, that there are space aliens named Xenu hanging on my butt.
Starting from the premise that the bible is consistent (given that it isn’t) can lead to exactly the same conclusion. Or to the conclusion that skull-fucking Benjamin Sinclair will bring about the Second Coming.
And supposedly *I* have no firm foundation for my morality?
I am angry that, after my grandfather had open heart surgery and went through it without complications, every single member of the family thanked Jesus for it. I’m angry that exactly the same thing happened when my cousin’s child was born 6 weeks ahead of time and survived without problems. I’m angry that on both occasions I didn’t have the guts to say that the doctors and nurses who took care of them also deserved some credit.
Bravo. I would like to start a ‘slow clap’.
>Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.Clap.<
Brilliant piece. Thank you for giving me back my right to anger. Excellent, excellent, excellent.
(Please move here to Canada if the fight there makes you too weary. We'll getcha married to Ingrid in a day. Could be longer if there's a line.)
Greta. Wow. Extremely great piece. Can I say that again? You nailed it!!!
My personal favorite line of ‘defense:’
“You’re not really talking about the real religion, that’s just a caricature of the real religion. I wouldn’t believe in a God like that either. In order to argue against religion, you have to look at the subtle, nuanced, sophisticated views of theologians throughout history. You have to look at what those scriptures meant to all those believers in all those societies. After all, it’s tradition! You have no respect for people or their traditions. You hate religion! You’re on some kind of a witch hunt! An Inquisition even! How can you attack something you don’t understand, and how can you understand it if you haven’t even bothered to study it for 15-20 years? How can you even discuss or argue reasonably against something when you haven’t read every scripture and theology book written in the last 2,000 years? Dawkins is a moron! I mean, why would you ask an evolutionary biologist about God?? He doesn’t know anything about the subject. That’s like asking a medical doctor to talk about ancient Mayan history.”
Or words to that effect. Which I’ve actually had said to me by a family member recently across a dinner table.
Aaaarrrrggghhhh.
I’m angry too. Well said for all the above.
I’d like to add a couple of things I’m angry about though.
I’m angry at other atheists who can’t see why they should be angry. Who take religious crap regularly and don’t seem to be bothered by it. Who put up with religion in others like it’s a harmless eccentricity, and don’t question or challenge the ridiculous unfounded beliefs of others.
I’m also increasingly angry when people compare a complete lack of respect for absurd religious beliefs to racism, sexism or xenophobia. Religion is a choice – race, sex and nationality are not – and as such derision is absolutely defensible.
This is a fantastic post. It’s the first time I’ve read your blog, but definitely not the last!
(BTW, I was reading a previous comment with some skepticism and atheistic intolerance (Atheist/Tantric/Sufi/Methodist etc. etc., who’s this nut? quoth I) but you know what? Annie Sprinkle is FUCKING AWESOME and can believe (&love) anything she damn well pleases! So can anyone else, really. End of intolerance. For now…)
Why should we oppose religion? Why does Richard Dawkins’ radical ideas resonate with us? Because religious indoctrination can be very dangerous for us. It teaches us to accept authority for itself, not because we have proof of its validation. It encourages us to surrender responsibility for our own lives in favor of religious guidelines under the guise of “submitting to God’s Will.”
We must all accept responsibility for ourselves and our actions. We need to deliberately consider the paths we choose rather than allow them to be made for us by some guy in a nice suit who claims to speak for God. Religion encourages us to be lazy and submissive when we need to be responsible. It’s one thing to use religious teachings as a means to inspire ourselves to become greater than we are; it’s something else to use it as a crutch instead of actively taking control of our lives. Religion can be a powerful tool in our lives, but I find it’s rarely used that way. So ultimately I don’t seek to abolish religion by force, but I’d like to diminish its hold on our lives by encouraging more critical thinking in place of passive acceptance.
There’s right, and then there’s very right. This is just about the best thing I’ve read in quite a long time.
two words are all thats needed.
thank you.
That was a tremendous post. I hope you will write a book describing the roots of our anger, because you really present a very stong explanation. Maybe I still incline more towards contempt than anger, but you convincingly argue the case that religion is often a malignant force. Anyway, thanks, this was a great read.
Good job.
Wow, very impressive. I stumbled on your site and read that entire thing. It’s like you took the words out of my mouth and put them much more eloquently on paper than I ever could have. Well said on all counts.
Great post!
However, I would add some more things which make atheists angry:
1. When believers say that Hitler’s/Stalin’s and Mao’s regimes were evil, because they were “atheistic”.
2. When believers say, that Einstein believed in God, because he used that word from time to time
3. When believers are confronted with inconsistencies and errors in sacred texts and they say “it is only a metaphor!”. Every stupidity can be metaphor for something real, it is only matter of fantasy to find out what it could be.
4. When believers are confronted with violent sacred texts and they dismiss them as “out-of-context”, without explaining what the fucking context is, in which, for example, genocide is not evil.
wow,
thank you, you’ve dnne some valuable work with this.
wonderfully put together reasoning and facts, and well backed-up and resourced.
i’ll probably be refering to this in my own arguments, i hope you don’t mind.
thanks again, and keep up the work. 🙂
hopefully in our lifetime we’ll see you get a legal marriage.
Great stuff! My new mission in life is to memorize this post so I can throw it back in the face of the dopey religious apologists who call me a “fundamentalist” or “evangelical” atheist or try to use the fallacious arguments that you’ve so brilliantly eviscerated in support of their “faith”.
This is brilliant. For some time I have been trying to compile an itemised list of all the things that anger me about religion, and you have saved me the bother. Well done.
This needed to be said,
now it needs to be forwarded.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
This is completely invaluable.
As an atheist, I find myself wanting to kill every religious I see every time I think of the sheer misery caused by religion. I know I don’t have the right to do it, and I know that it won’t do any good. However, that anger, that desire to grab a non-existent God by the throat and kill him — just to show his followers how worthless and weak their god really is — doesn’t go away.
DEATH TO ALL RELIGIONS!!
Righteous!
I’ve been an angry, furious, *livid* atheist for years, for exactly the reasons you list (and many, many more). I’m delighted that the anger is growing. It needs to. It is *necessary* to get angry about evil things.
Don’t you also get angry at the amount of money spent on churches and other religious moneypits, money that could be spent on things that actually help people?
Your blog is awesome… 🙂 Thank You.
Teitur Atlason
Iceland.
I’m a Christian and think you have quite a slanted viewpoint on Christianity. See, Christianity is about believing by faith that God created us, sent his son to die for our sins, etc (I’m sure you know the rest).
What, however, is one of the greatest commandments taught in the new testament? Love thy neighbor as thyself.
If Christians acted like Christians, you wouldn’t be angry. At some point, after exposing you to God and the message of Life, we have to let you go. It’s up to you to find God after that… We can pray for you, that their be some intervention by the Holy Spirit, but badgering you is NOT the answer NOR is segregating you or making you do things you don’t wish to do.
I could go on and on about how I feel about some of the issues you posted above and I think you could agree that while we may not see eye to eye on all of them, that I can certainly understand your view point.
Some that you mentioned, I felt like had been bastardized. Like wives submitting to their husbands… what women do you know who would submit to their husband if they had a man of utter integrity who provided for her, served her, served others, and made her feel more loved than humanly possible? Probably all of them… And I don’t mean submitted in the context you are familiar with, but submit as in allow him to lead, be apart of him. In order to understand some things in the bible, you have to understand that the other side of it (as I just mentioned). Women in abusive situations (verbal or physical) shouldn’t submit, they should seek help.
Furthermore, using a Catholic church or any catholic official when talking about Christianity is not very fair. They are a small sub-set of Christianity and believe in many things that most of the Protestant denominations don’t. The whole point of the Pope is so that he can be our representative to God. However, we don’t need him. We can have our own personal relationship with God.
My challenge to every atheist I meet, is to ask them to read the bible and pray to the God (even if they don’t think he exists). Do this for a few minutes for 3-7 days. If they don’t feel a change in themselves, the longing for more, the need to understand what they are feeling than they can go along with their lives.
I’ll accept them however they are but I want them to know that the few bad Christians could be tainting them and making them miss something wonderful.
I apologize if this is rough and ill-conceived, I thru it together rather fast… Thanks for taking the time to read.
Dave Child closed his comment with this line: Religion is a choice – race, sex and nationality are not – and as such derision is absolutely defensible.
In one sense he’s right, people don’t control their gender, race, etc. In another sense, he’s not quite accurate about how religion is transmitted from generation to generation. The children of religious believers are immersed in an atmosphere of religiosity from infancy until adulthood. They cannot view the world from any lenses other than the ones with which their parents equip them for a long time. Even if they learn fairly early on that other lenses exist, they may not have opportunities to try on those lenses for a long time. By then, they may have comfortably settled into viewing the world through the lenses they’ve inherited. Having come from a conservative evangelical Christian perspective, my experience is that it takes a lot of hard work to shed that point of view. It requires something akin to Kuhn’s paradigm shift and can be an extremely uncomfortable experience until one comes out the other side. Once there, one finds it has been liberating. Freedom of any kind never comes without a struggle.
Is religion chosen? No and yes. Children often are reared in such a way that it’s very difficult to say no. Nevertheless, they can say no or yes in a way that will never be possible regarding gender, race, etc.
Thank you.
Thank you for articulating. I have been too angry for too long to articulate clearly.
Great post Greta!
Feel free to speak for this atheist any time you want. 🙂
As a lifetime member of the United Methodist Church, I just want you to know that I appreciate your post. You have plenty of good reasons to be angry; everything you said is valid.
If I could somehow speak for other Christians, I would apologize to you. I would abase myself and grovel. Nobody deserves that.
Despite the force and legitimacy of your anger, you still chose your words carefully, so that your anger is directed like a laser beam, rather than a shotgun blast. Your anger is much more effective that way, which is something Matthew Graybosch apparently does not understand.
I don’t use the term “fundamentalist atheist,” but I have often used the term “evangelical atheist.” I am often annoyed by evangelicals on both sides of the fence.
One very minor quibble: unless you deliberately intend irony, you might want to find alternatives to “goddamn” and “damn.” They don’t really fit into the atheistic belief system. I recognize that they are rarely used for their literal meaning, and that is not how you intended to use them. But you chose all your other words so carefully.
Very good job, though. It all needs saying, and you said it quite lucidly. People need to keep saying this stuff until it sinks in.
I have bookmarked this article, when someone asks me why i get angry over religion, i will link them here. 🙂
great article.
Brad posted while I was drafting mine. He doesn’t get it. You spell it out for him, and he still doesn’t get it. I can’t improve his reading comprehension or apologize on his behalf, but I just want people to know we are not all like that.
“Catholics are a small sub-set of Christianity.” I snickered out loud when I read that one.
Brad posted while I was drafting mine. He doesn’t get it. You spell it out for him, and he still doesn’t get it. I can’t improve his reading comprehension or apologize on his behalf, but I just want people to know we are not all like that.
“Catholics are a small sub-set of Christianity.” I snickered out loud when I read that one.
Yoyo quote: And that rock music is from the devil but beethoven beating his wife is cool and groovy.
Just to clear Beethoven’s name, he didn’t beat his wife because he never had one. He apparently was somewhat miserable (he was a composer and musician who was going deaf, after all!), but I don’t recall that he was in the habit of beating women.
Anyway, great rant! It makes me grateful that I’m living in one of the more religion-free areas of Canada.
Hey, you can too get married in this country… before there was gay marriage in Europe, there was gay marriage in the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts. ‘Course, you’ll have to stay here to enjoy all the associated rights. But that’s just a bonus.
Seems like, however, there’s no stance a Christian can take that won’t make you angry… I mean, if they’re anti-gay woman-subjugating hellfire preaching child abusers, you’re angry, but if they’re not, you’re still angry. It seems like at some point, you should just let them off with being ‘wrong’, and reserve your anger for worse offenses. If you are angry at people just for being wrong, I guess you better enjoy being angry — a lot.
Sorry for the double post. Not sure how or why I did that.
Here’s a link, showing Catholics are the largest denomination of Christians (if you’ll trust wikipedia on this): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members
Of course, nothing in the original post claims that Catholics represent all Christians, or that all Christians should be tarred with the Catholic brush. There was no need for Brad to be defensive in the first place.
Well, that was just part of the link. Not sure how to get the whole link to appear. Here’s the rest of the link:
ons_by_number_of_members
One more thing… you said:
‘But unless you can point to the text to which these “fundamentalist” atheists literally and strictly adhere without question, then please shut the hell up about us being fundamentalist.’
But that’s not the only thing fundamentalist means. That’s one definition. Here’s another one:
“strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles” (from Dictionary.com).
By that definition, no text is required, and I’m sure there are some atheists who could aptly be described as ‘fundamentalist’, in this sense. That’s not necessarily the best word to use, but it certainly isn’t wrong. So on that particular point, there’s no reason to get angry: if people mean it that way, then they aren’t wrong to use it that way.
Great work, Greta. I want to let you know that we are exactly alike except that I’m a married heterosexual male. Good luck on getting married soon. Your time will come if all of us keep fighting with you. I have a wife and two kids who are firmly rational, and my kids are much smarter than I am. They will be a great force for change.
Hang in there and don’t stop being angry.
– betalife
ESVA: Good point. Isn’t there a strong argument to be made that the person who was raised religious owes it to themselves to at least evaluate that as an adult? Meaning they are choosing to keep their religious beliefs and never analyse them, simply assuming them to be true. In my opinion that opens them to derision as well. I would say that those attempting to throw off the religious shackles, for want of a less dramatic phrase, will and do have a hard time doing so, especially when their parents remain within a faith, but in that case wouldn’t a little carefully judged ridicule of their former religion simply help them?
I have to agree wholeheartedly with the post, it’s content and it’s sentiment.
I would like to make two points. First, I’ve never been comfortable with the casting of atheist’s as some kind of persecuted minority. Victimization always seemed so pathetic. You are right when you say that Christians find every opportunity to cast themselves as victims of persecution or warriors standing against the dark forces of “The World” *insert darth vader theme song*. And yet here we are giving our atheist amen’s and hallelujah’s to a post that certainly paints a persecuted atheist perspective.
It always grates on my nerves and makes me roll my eyes when I read it in Christian (and Atheist) literature. I guess maybe because it seems so irrelevant. My thinking goes…
Ok Fine I’m a persecuted minority.
Soooo… This changes how I act how? I can still vote, voice my opinions, not go to church, own a gun, quite frankly the Bill of Rights prohibits the government from intruding on my life as much as my evangelical neighbors. Sure we have an unpopular (but free to express it) opinions. My atheist wife and I can get married, have children, and be buried in a non-Christian cemetery.
Homosexuals not allowed to be married, that’s persecution. Minorities being unable to vote, or use a particular drinking fountain, bathroom or seat on a bus, that’s oppression. Atheist’s not being… uh… popular or… uh… understood properly… uh…
Having said all of that my perspective is quite different from the author. While raised in a low-income situation, I am certainly not now. I am a white, hetero, male who lives in a very white, hetero Indiana, USA. I am quite sure I have never suffered a day of persecution, prejudice or oppression for a day in my life. Well, there was this one time when I used to dress like a Goth/Raver with the full spikes, black nails, green hair and walked into a department store with a backpack. I’m quite certain security was only a couple steps behind me at any given time. Does that count?
Secondly, sometimes observing religious things is less about the religion and more about the people. Just last weekend I was a groomsman in my brother-in-law’s wedding (Catholic). As part of the ceremony we were instructed to walk down the aisle, stop in front of the altar, bow as a sign of respect to the Jesus and take our seats (yea! for seats). I did as instructed not because I was showing any kind of sign of respect to Jesus but as a sign of respect to my brother-in-law because to not have done it would turned “his” day into “my” protest and that seems to be a particularly selfish thing to do.
As a hilarious side note my 8 year old was the ring bearer and when he was instructed to bow to Jesus (who was situated slightly off-center) he bowed the wrong way (It didn’t occur to me at the time that he didn’t know what Jesus looked like). The wedding coordinator said “You need to bow *towards* Jesus” and my son said with absolutely no fear, “Sorry but I don’t know where Jesus is at”. I almost wanted to cry with joy but instead laughed uncontrollably once I saw the woman’s expression. I’m going to give that boy an extra hug tonight because he has absolutely no idea how brave a statement that was.
That’s it. That’s exactly it. Thank you.
Stomper, I apologize. When I was referring to the Catholic Church as a small subset of Christianity I certainly wasn’t meaning in number of followers or how large they are. They follow their own set of rules and standards that many of the Protestant religions do not and basing Christianity as a whole off the Catholic Church is a bad idea as many of the Evangelical Churches do not think highly of the Catholic Church at all and think they give Christianity a bad name (which appears to be proven even more so by this article and many like it every day on the internet).
Second of all, I’m not being defensive. Why would I be? I’m being positive. The post was fine and her points are valid. I’m simply stating that if Christians acted like they should, atheists wouldn’t have a need to be angry.
Maybe I should have just posted that and have been done with it. So I will:
If Christians acted like they should, atheists wouldn’t have a need to be angry.
boo hoo hoo. all you poor little atheists; what great injustices this minority must endure.
don’t you realize that rallying against all gods or religions is EXACTLY THE SAME as rallying for any one of them? it’s just another religion trying to win out. good luck.
most ironic passage: “My time is valuable and increasingly limited, and I have better things to do with it than debating with people who pretend to care about evidence and reason but ultimately don’t.”
I wonder how much of your valuable time was wasted on this post. just a little food for thought in the buffet of praise.
My compliments!
Though I’m a lifelong Christian, I find that I have to say “amen” to your post. Most everything you’re angry about is caused by the forced indoctrination of religious viewpoints by (usually unqualified) authority figures, and that makes me angry too. There is no merit in following a religion because man forces you to. I am angry at the complex social power-grabbing structures that have grown up around religion, at what they do, and how they tar and poison the honest religion that the laity would much rather follow — if only they had choice in the matter.
Luis said, “I’m angry that on both occasions I didn’t have the guts to say that the doctors and nurses who took care of them also deserved some credit.”
thanks. 🙂 why go to nursing or medical school, if we can just let Jesus take care of the sick people?
Excellent, and sadly necessary, rant.
Except perhaps the part about the NCAA final four. I don’t believe in god but if there were such an entity surely he or she would damned well care about which team won the final four!
Personally, my anger could be assuaged if two things were to occur:
1)Believers of any stripe would just admit that there is no rational or evidentiary basis to their belief -hence the act of faith term.
2) Believers would keep their beliefs out of government. Their faith (no doubt combined with more than a moderate ignorance of biology) should be absolutely prohibited from influencing public policy.
This reminds me of how blown away I was at the Democrats’ responses to gay marriage in the GLBT debate.
I can’t understand why anyone, who expects to be considered for President of the U.S. and has even a passing acquaintance with our country’s history and the constitution, could have answered in any other way than to state that separation of church and state guarantees that the state would not dictate that any church perform same-sex marriage but at the same time necessitates that the state recognize such unions performed by any legitimate church as well as all civil unions. Period. And that doesn’t even require that they comprehend (as Gov. Richardson evidently does not) that sexual orientation is not a preference/choice.
nah, why be angry at the ignorant? they cannot help it. and anyway, they are on the way to where you are, and you are on the way to where those beyond you are… a-theism being the goal of all true spiritual search based on truth and reality, going beyond the concept of god to the direct perception of the formless oneness of existence…. (most atheists don’t get that, but i don’t hold it against them)… enjoy
Many of the things you hate about religion are the same thing we believers hate too. Sorry, but being an atheist doesn’t grant you a monopoly on outrage.
Hear, hear!
Among the best posts I’ve seen on the subject. Three cheers.
Thanks, and best of luck to you and Ingrid. (There is always Massachusetts… though some seem to have forgotten the meaning of ‘full faith and credit’!)
If you could hear me clapping, then…well, you’d hear it. Very well written.
Word.
Brad, my fiance is the sort of man you describe, and I don’t let him “lead me” — furthermore, he doesn’t want to. Once in a while, yes; probably a little less often than I lead him. Most of the time we make the decisions together.
Letting him “lead me” would be disclaiming my responsibility as an adult human being, which is not a good way for anyone — male or female — to live. I don’t think most men or women want to live as children either. Maybe some have been taught that they do, and maybe some are willing to because it’s easier, and they’re lazy.
Kind of like vesting all ultimate moral authority in your imaginary friend who comes from a book you once read, for that matter.
Jesus can take away your anger.
i agree. there have been few times where i see injustices that have been ignored by a whole country, (i’m still young, just 18) and i find it extremely disheartening to know that there is not only a world of ignorance out there but an ignorance that has the public’s ear.
Great Post
People need neither religion nor aethism as an excuse to behave badly.
No need to look further than humanity as the reason why people do nasty things. Humans do bad things, religion is neither part of the problem nor part of the solution (nor is aethism for that matter).
I am sorry for whatever abuses you have suffered to make you so angry.
I don’t think there’s really a need to be angry, to be honest. If everyone was to just chill out and let everyone believe what everyone wants to believe, then that’s fine by me (don’t try and persuade me to change my opinion without rock-hard evidence though). I guess you could call me an atheist, but what I really think is that on evidence, the Big Bang theory and evolution are the most probable explainations at this point. If anyone would like to correct me with a more solid piece of scientific evidence that points me to the contrary (sorry, religious text quotes don’t count as more solid than scientific results to me) then I’ll be more than happy to take that into account when assessing “what went on” and whether or indeed who is out there.
My girlfriend is Christian, but that’s never caused a problem. We each respect each other’s beliefs and that’s just great for us. All the angry people should try it.
Here is one more for you to be angry at….You are angry because you are separated from God by your own thoughts and deeds.
I hope you won’t mind if I borrow or paraphrase parts of your article to write to a local newspaper that badly needs to hear them, that, as just one of many examples of biased and pejorative coverage, in covering Pride Day in a small town, in which there were hundreds of protesters and one “religious-right” anti-protester, chose a photo of one protester and the one anti-protester, each with their signs, as though their messages and popularity were on an equal footing. Shame on them!
Wow. That was cathartic. Thanks!
All I can say is wow! I have been visiting blogs for awhile now, and web sites, where some people say that being angry doesn’t help one bit, just makes us look bad. Thank you for opening up my eyes, again. I love your writing, also I think you need to write a book on this subject. I would buy one! 🙂
I am genuinely glad that you are angry and can embrace these passionate feelings and claim them with such conviction. I am also purely ecstatic for you, that so many have supported your post.
Believe me when I say that there are many of us that feel the same way and are too afraid to say these things out loud and confront people, for fear that we may be chastised and thrown out of society for good…not that ultimately we would mind.
You have certainly inspired me to change these thoughts, and reconsider my repressed anger.
THANK YOU.
I get angry that we have to write stuff like this (and inevitably expose ourselves to having our characters ripped up via ensuing arguments) just to defend ourselves, when they’re the ones who believe in unicorns.
Blah blah, blah blah blah.
More tired rhetoric from an overzealous something-or-another.
Doesn’t matter if you don’t believe in God, it is still a belief system – and one that you are entitled to practice and believe pursuant to the United States Constitution.
Your time would be better spent trying to change the political process and influencing your elected officials, instead of penning angry-emo-atheist-woman rants and blaming the ills of U.S. society on a group of individuals that a) don’t practice the teachings of the Bible, and b) will say or do anything to get votes for public office.
Your post is well written and it sums up many of the things that piss me off daily. With the anger being stirred up from so many directions, it’s hard to know where to focus the energy. I think we could be on the brink of so good changes for all of mankind, but we’ll all have to take an active role in bringing the changes about. For so many years we’ve had to just accept the believers while they sneer and attack us. It is time for them to have to accept us, then perhaps we won’t need to sneer at them. If we all accept that everyone is likely to have a different viewpoint than us, then it will only make the world a more interesting place.
Thank you. I too am angry about people who think I should sit on the sidelines and accept being treated as less than a full citizen because of my lack of belief in an invisible sky father.
… And so very much more.
“What, however, is one of the greatest commandments taught in the new testament? Love thy neighbor as thyself.”
There’s no commandment that tells you to be stupid, however, is there?
By believing in the fairy tales told in the Bible, you are perpetuating gross ignorance.
It doesn’t matter how much love you convey while doing it.
Stop treating your brain like crap.
I’m angry that I read all that and there wasn’t a new, insightful thought in the whole article.
Couple ‘a followup comments: regarding the “Thank you jesus” comment above. If people believe jesus, or god is responsible for an uncle living through heart surgery, then it must also be true that he’s responsible when someone doesn’t. To be consistent, people should say “thank you jesus” when uncle joe dies in the OR, also. If jesus intervenes, he intervenes.
Also. what this atheist wants: I recognize that for most people, being human and all, giving up religion would be too hard to face. But what I want — and what the world desperately needs — is to have leaders who, if they must be religious, can keep it to themselves; and who use evidence to make decisions that affect us all. Having a president who thinks god talks to him is demonstrably dangerous. If you want to believe in god, fine and dandy. But don’t take me to war over it. And don’t use it to quash science, to discriminate against people for their sexual preferences, or to ignore facts. We see how that works. God helps us all…
Thank you.
So you’re angry that atheists suffer the same abuse and torment as non-atheists?
And you’re angry that non-atheists are morally no better than atheists?
Geez.
Next post: why are atheists self-righteous?
Best Rant Ever.
Thank you and I hope its Ok that I linked to this from my (tiny)site.
And Thanks to PZ for showing us this spectacular work.
If anyone ever accuses me of being an angry atheist I’ll simply point them this way and say, yeah maybe I am, can you blame me?
Hey there,
I don’t have anything terribly articulate or insightful to add, but I did want to say I enjoyed reading this immensely. Thank you.
(I was linked to this from the atheism community on LJ).
Cheers,
Brad
Wow. I have a lot to say about this, but I’m going to keep it short:
First, I’m a Catholic.
Second, I agree with just about everything you have to say.
Bravo!
It takes a lot of guts to be able to say the things you said and to once and for all finally justify the right to stand up and scream at the attrocities and ignorance and downright stupidity of people that cant understand the monumental amount of scientific fact that “God” is nothing more than an imaginary friend for grown ups, used by governments and other organizations to strike fear into millions of fools.
Thank you very much for writing this.
I will be linking it to my site and hope to drive a few more hits to yours.
Again: BRAVO.
I like the pictures, nice job!
“You will not be punished for your anger… you will be punished by your anger.” – The Buddha
I get angry at sophistry, begging the question, and equivocation.
Great post, I’m off to share it on some net sites I frequent… don’t get to taut my anger often–but it is nice to relish in our evolutionary heritage from time to time. I’m angry about death, so I support the Methuselah Foundation. I’m angry about religion so I teach children about religions at my Unitarian Universalist Church. I’m angry about my blink of an eye in the time scale of things–lifespan–so I’m a cryonicist, in case it works because human society continues to advance the next millennium, and we can figure out how to stop aging just like some animal species that effectively do not age now, because they got the luck of the draw evolutionarily. I’m angry about inequality resources with humans, so I support many non profits like True Majority, Save the Children, The Heifer Foundation to try and help those who have shortened lifespans now, due to their poverty, lack of education, health or food. I’m angry about selfish people who are wealthy compared to most in the world, who live in an unhealthy way–so I try to set an example for my children and raise them as responsible Earth citizens.
So thanks, your anger is eloquent and encapsulates what so many are thinking… and anger begets action….I like to think that the world continues to become a better place each year…
What a stupid post. Not one mention of things in the Muslim world. In fact when the Muslim world gets a mention she is feeling bad for a Muslim girl. Maybe that Muslim girl would have done well to ditch her own delusions and fantasies and been able to give that teacher a real reply.
Not a word about honor killing (over 5,000 a year) in the Mid East or about the general status of women there as chattel. 9/11 gets one line. Not a mention of any one of the Mullahs, Clerics, or imams who issue insane fatwas, execute gays, execute dissidents, and execute and arrest women for uncovering their wrists. But George Bush, Falwell, Haggard, and the pope all get done over thouroughly.
Typical blinkered feminist cant. If you want to increase the respect people have for atheists then try to cultivate a real ethical consciousness and not just use it as a prism through which to focus your own cultural self loathing.
I’m angry at people who always have to spout off about their religious beliefs–or about their lack of religious beliefs.
In all seriousness, I really do tire of the “creationism vs. science” debate, because as you point out, it’s a bogus debate. Whether or not you believe in an afterlife, there are reams of evidence that science is getting it right more often than not. To all the Southern Baptists tuning in: What is so wrong with studying the natural universe? Why do DINOSAURS, for Pete’s sake, through all of you into such a tizzy?
And angry people piss me off bad enough that I want nothing to do with them. Ta-ta.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Atheism is a religion, welcome to the club. We’re all angry about something.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Atheism is a religion, welcome to the club. We’re all angry about something.
Brad said:
“If they don’t feel a change in themselves, the longing for more, the need to understand what they are feeling than they can go along with their lives.”
Gee. How terribly gracious of you. We only have to jump when you say frog and perform a short sentence for our lack of belief in your imaginary friends.
How about this, instead? Everyone who thinks they’re hearing the voice of God or ‘feeling his hand in their lives’ should submit to psychological examinations. I hate to think how many undiagnosed schizophrenics there might be out there masked by the nature of religion. Anyone found mentally competent could then “go along with their lives”.
Talk about being unclear on the concept. While I’m not an atheist (yet, who knows what tomorrow may bring), I *am* an anti-religion agnostic. And I’m angry, too! What part of being hammered on all sides by Christians doesn’t Brad and his cohorts get? No one in the US is non-Christian due to ignorance of the religion. Good grief, most of us would LOVE to be able to forget it exists. I used to know the stats, but have forgotten the precise numbers – something like 75% of natural born non-Christian Americans in the US were raised Christian (myself included). The more we learned about it, the less we could believe.
You’re angry because you want an excuse to whine. Live and let live and you will have nothing to be angry about. I hope this rant made you feel a bit of relief, but rest assured you have done nothing to make the world a better place with your incessant whining. Thanks for nothing.
An excellent, excellent piece. I couldn’t agree more. We need anger to ignite change – our polite, contrite, respectful stance of the last 50 years or so has gained us NOTHING. We need to get pissed off and make them realize that ATHEISTS ARE NOT THE ONES THAT ARE CRAZY!
The comments speak volumes about the manner in which you approached this and portrayed your anger.
Well done.
I share your anger.
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.
Changing your own worldview is the hardest thing to do. Whether you’re a member of a certain faith, or an atheist.
A lot of the discord revolves around unanswered questions and ignorance of opposing viewpoints. We should all keep in mind that there is only one objective truth, however… out there, somewhere.
Fantastic post. Got me all pissed off (and I’m not even an atheist) – it’s a good thing that most of the office is out this week or they’d find me all ranty in the kitchen.
You’re absolutely right that no civil rights movement has ever gotten anywhere without some good, articulate rage to fuel it.
Let me just lay some things out: I’m religious, I’m obviously on your anger list (at first I thought I wasn’t, but you effectively lumped EVERY single religious Christian (at the least) into your list by the end). And I’m a bit concerned.
You’re totally right though. I’m concerned more with the way religion is going (and has been going, since, well, before Galileo, but pointedly since then) than with you and like minded ‘angry’ atheists. But I’m curious: you point out every quibble you have with religion, yet you say you hate people that do that. You lump all religious people into one category and then say if we disagree with your lumping, how dare we interpret God’s word that way. You make note of the “God-of-the-gaps” ideology as if it were gospel, yet make no note of the alternative religious views on the subject of science/religion.
My question to you is: why, instead of writing such a long blog post, don’t you just say “I am angry with (bold, underline, font size HUGE) EVERYTHING that religion does, and ALL religious people. Because, I would like to have a dialogue with you, one that doesn’t involve hate, perpetuation of old stereotypes, or old, hashed out arguments (on both sides), but you effectively put me at odds with you, and I find that disheartening. I hope that in time your anger will subside, like many of the great movements before you mentioned, but until that time comes the thing I learned from you is: I will never, ever, tell my atheist friends (or any atheist for that matter) to calm the F down.
HOLY.
SHIT.
I swear there would be something smarter here in this comment section right now if I wasn’t completely reeling.
Amen.
Exactly.
Right on.
Yes.
GO.
Etc.
Easily the best blog post I’ve read this year – and you’re in high company there. 🙂
I’m not atheist but i’m angry as FUCK. I am shaman and their is room for interpretation. REFORM,REDEFINE! Jesus was a pot smoking mushroom eating hippy!
All praise money, the antichrist and slavery! Hail king of north america Bush. Gay la douche.
here’s some angry atheist music…
http://www.ijigg.com/search?s=+atheism
– Belief in god Never Cured Stupidity
– charlatan bastard jesus
– Tax The Churches For Unwanted Pregnancies
– kiss my ass, jesus
– jesus gave me head
– xtians are gay for jesus
I’m angry because I spent the first years of my life actually BELIEVING that there was this place called Hell and I was going to BURN forever in it because I didn’t wash the dishes properly, because I read books too much, because I “had bad thoughts,” because Sister WhatTheFuck told me so, because I liked John Lennon better than Jesus, because I touched a Ouija board, etc etc etc. And when you’re six and seven years old you have faith. It’s just too sickening.
Fucking beautiful. Thank you so much.
While I happen to share many of your views, I don’t share the view that writing a log blog post bitching and moaning about how angry you are, is going to affect any useful change what-so-ever.
Especially since you’re basically “preaching to the choir.” (Funny analogy given the topic of your post, I know.)
Stop wasting so much time being angry and writing blog posts about the hundreds of reasons why you’re angry and start working to actually educate and inform more people in a constructive way.
Unless you’re like most bloggers who just like to spew words in the hope of receiving piles of meaningless praise.
Good post. I certainly hope religious people would be angry about all these as well.
Nice rant. Sorry about all that. I’m religious to my bones but I find atheism gives me a fresh perspective on things.
Unrelatedly, the foregoing rant smacked heavily of theism.
This was incredible, Greta. Thank you.
Betalife, I commend you. My husband and I are trying to conceive, and we’ve been getting nothing but crap from people about choosing to raise a child without faith-based beliefs. I can tell it won’t be easyânot because of our abilities or my child’s capabilities, but because there is a society out there who unethically or ignorantly tries to pass off faith for fact, that believe itâs moral and ethical to inhibit a childâs natural curiosity and critical thinking for something faith-based.
Perhaps that, Greta, is something to add. Iâm angry (today, anyway) because people âof faithâ are telling me that because I once worked at an womenâs clinic as a counselor for women considering abortion, Godâs âmade me barrenâ because I havenât conceived in the three months that Iâve been actively trying. Iâm angry because people would prefer to confuse cause and effect and accept appeals as empirical evidence. That comfort trumps truth. That people prefer to be anesthetized to rather than wrestle with the natural existential anxiety inherent in the human condition, and then they claim this is a virtue, something honorable, something to be glorified. That people who accept a blood sacrifice for their âsalvationâ are, by default, moral people.
Actually, I think all this would fall under all your categorical points above.
Wow, just… wow.
Excellent post!
Trust me, the God you don’t believe in…doesn’t exist.
Wonderful Brilliant. Could not have said it better myself. Ironically, if you were an actual goddess, I’d totally base a religion around you….
Excellent article, I agree with most of your points and share your frustration. I’m not atheistic, I’m agnostic, but I’m extremely skeptical in any capacity towards a supreme being. With that being said, I loath organized religion with a passion that is unparalleled.
Thank you for this write up, and keep up the work.
I’m not trying to spam, but visit imminst.org. As atheist/agnostic who doubt an afterlife, all we can hope for is life-extension from a scientific/technological aspect, and seeing how this is the 21st century, it would be naive to think it’s not possible.
Remember, this life we live here is our own heaven, and I’m equally disgusted when religious nutjobs try to taint our lives.
I love this post, but yet I’m going to have to disagree.
We *need* religion. I say this as the atheist son of atheist scientists. I’m a kuffar, an infidel, an unbeliever, and I say we need religion.
I used to be angrier. I thought that religion was a trick by which the powerful gave people some good ideas, “thou shalt not kill” to trick them into believing some spiritual BS that benefitted the powerful.
I had it all backwards.
When my father died, my (atheist all her life) mother said “at least he’s gone to a better place”.
Why? Because she needed to believe that.
Most people are irrational. They need to believe these things:
– Good will prevail and evil will be punished
– The universe is not mechanistic, but actually cares about them in a deeply personal way.
– Death is not final.
– We are members of a nearly unbreakable community that will take care of us.
– Someone else will take responsibility for your actions.
– There are simple, comprehensible explanations for natural phenomena.
Now, all these things are false. Comforting, but false. If your powers of logic or will are weak, you will find some way to believe the above.
When my father died? My mother spontaneously came up with some bogus stuff. What happens when kids with no facility for logic rebel against Christianity? They usually walk right into another, equally irrational and empirically false religion or “spiritualism”. What happens when people get shipwrecked somewhere? They come up with religion.
Most people *want* to be irrational. They feel this need at an uncontrollable, heroin-addiction level. They desperately want to believe certain things that are emotionally comforting but false, and they will come up with complex systems in order to justify these beliefs. These systems of rationalization are religions.
Religion, at least, piggybacks on these desires and sneaks in a little good stuff, like “thou shalt not kill”
When I realized this, I realized I had the causal arrow backwards.
It wasn’t
People believe “thou shalt not kill” and get tricked into believing in imaginary bearded friends in the sky.
It was:
People want to believe in imaginary friends. We might as well use this belief to trick them into not killing.
Atheism, like dunking a basketball or higher mathematics, is a skill accessible only to people of specific talents and training.
Let me put it another way:
Newtonian mechanics is false. However, it’s reasonably capable to comprehend. Relativistic mechanics is significantly better, but harder to comprehend.
Why do we teach (false) Newtonian mechanics? Because in the overwhelming majority of situations, it is almost perfect in accuracy, and yet can be understood.
Similarly, religion teaches people to form communities, observe reciprocity, save money, and understand the natural world.
Without religion, these people would be worse. Far worse.
Take away Creationism from these people and they’ll find something even more stupid.
Take away the ancient religions from these people and they’ll find something even more stupid. (This process is already happening, with new-age religions that are even more irrational than the garden variety Abrahamic ones)
Taking away religion from these people is like mandating we teach relativity in fourth grade. Sure, I could handle it, and you could handle it, but what about those who can’t?
What about those people who need religion to keep them psychologically together.
JY,
The reason the term fundamentalist is still wrong is because atheists don’t hold to a set of beliefs. There is no equivalent of a denomination.
Atheism in and of itself is a lack of belief. No one is getting together and saying “here’s how to be a *real* atheist”.
You have a right to your anger, and to express it, but holding onto it is bondage. But you really don’t know what a True Christian is like. I am sorry you have had experience with un-Christian-like people. But not everyone who calls themself a Christian actually is one. Christians walk in love and forgiveness. We are kind, gentle and humble. To condemn us all for a few is unjust. But to be judged by you or anyone, to me, is a small thing. God is the One Judge. He will judge us all for the things we have done on this earth, there is nothing that will not be brought to light. He is the only One I care to please. I hope you find peace.
I am angry too, but I am not an avowed atheist. If you’re not angry, you’re not paying attention…
Christian religion speaks of the End Times, or Judgement Day. As an agnostic, I believe/hope the time is near since it will not be all doom and gloom/end of the world stuff, but rather an end to religion. People will realize that it does not make sense and equate with reality especially as communication and “voice” continues to grow globally. Information is the key and the world is a much bigger information source now as compared to past generations. With each new generation, I believe less of the population buys into religion. The Catholic church has taken major hits over the years, and will likely not recover, especially to its glory years during the Dark Ages. Other flavors of Christianity as well as most other dominant religions also will likely suffer from the spread of information and concept of choice.
Religion’s “End Times” are coming and there will hopefully be lasting peace once this comes, but it will not be at the hand of Jesus, but rather the spread of real time information and the human species realizing that all this religious dogma does not make sense, and “I” am not going to devote my life to the nonsense.
I was angry at the twit next to me in an airplane. He made the sign of the cross and prayed before landing.
It fucking works every time! If it lands he validates god’s service to him, ensuring safe landing.
If the plane crashes into a firey inferno then it does not matter anyway.
Win-win. That’s why I hate religion.
Great piece Greta.
As Margaret Cho says, “Sometimes I just want to ‘go there'” too.
I am angry that my brother has been crippled by MS and our government actively blocks research into technology and science that could help him walk or cure him entirely. Rather than utilize embryonic material that would have been discarded anyway, they, upon their religious belief, impute this as gods will – and value a cluster of cells higher than a live, suffering human.
I am angry when violence against doctors and employees of family planning clinics is committed by religious zealots, and the rest of the religious communities do not do more to self-police these groups. I am angry that Teri Schaivo was used as a prop in a charade of faux piety when the spark of anything that made her uniquely definable as a human being had long departed. I am angry when the bible and religious belief is used to attempt to explain or justify hate crimes against gays. I am angry when gay kids kill themselves because they are raised in households filled with religious intolerance for gays. I am angry that Mathew Shepard was killed, because the root cause of all this homophobia, and the ultimate justification for it, is based in religion. I am angry that the church asks queers to sacrifice their sexuality on the alter of celibacy in order to “enter the kingdom of heaven” – that is essentially what “love the sinner, hate the sin” means. I am angry that this god of theirs always demands being approached on ones knees. I am angry that their god plays a “zero-sum” game when everything else in the natural world testifies to the multiplicity , variety, and diversity of the universe. I am angry that atheists are called immoral when it is the christians who are afraid to do the moral heavy lifting of finding meaning and purpose in their lives without the aid of some vast supernatural entity – or having it spoon fed to them. I am angry that christians would presume to know anything whatsoever about my inner life and moral character when they can’t bother themselves to know anything about atheism. I am angry that Jesus and Mahammoud and the pope are held up as figures above reproach and criticism and that the lives of anyone who dares question their moral authority will be in jeopardy. I am angry that the natural world, with all of its wonders that can be seen, and felt, and tasted, and smelled, and heard, and is in itself awe inspiring and amazing, with mysteries still to be discovered and explored, is dismissed based purely on a “feeling” – the inability of human limited minds to think beyond themselves. I am angry that all of this universe is still not enough to fill someone with respect and reverence for life and everything else in it that people had to go invent god to explain it all, and that even as we begin to understand the universe people STILL cling to fables and fantasy. I am angry that christians can not see that from an atheists point of view their beliefs are as equally valid as believing in Zeus, Thor, Shiva, or the Goddess – how does one chose between one supernatural agency over another? Is it all luck of the draw depending on the age and culture you are born into?
One thing I’ve said about anger is that anger tells us something about ourselves if we are willing to listen. Anger tells us where our boundaries lie. Sometimes we don’t know a boundary within ourselves until we are angry about something. Our anger stands up for us when we would otherwise be cowed, or bullied, or oppressed.
Good piece. I enjoyed reading it.
Wow. Great post! I want more snarky atheists in my life if they’re going to be as smart and articulate as you.
A-fucking-men.
From an atheist that used to be in a foxhole I give you a great big, “Hooah!”
“If Christians acted like Christians, you wouldn’t be angry.”
Bard gets it even less that you said. This is standard, “My far better understanding of what Christians are trumps your arguments about how they actually act!”, excuse that is already mentioned in the article. Its bullshit. The number of assholes in Christianity, even *before* the Nicene Creed, when they decided what was “acceptable” stories, so they could better figure out which “false” Christians to kill, has outnumbered the *true* Christians Brad is babbling about by at least 100:1, if not worse. Its like arguing that Stalin wasn’t a true “communist”. It might even be an accurate description, if you want to nitpick to that silly an extent, but its not a valid argument when 99.9% of the governments that call themselves communist have been based on Stalin’s model, and not on the gloriously pure version a “true” communist would want to argue for. Same for Christianity. 99.9% of Christian churhes, and their attitudes/beliefs towards “everyone else” have been based on the same, “We are better than everyone else, and since we are, we will talk a lot about loving our neighbors and hating sin but not the sinners, but when push comes to shove, if you are one of the later you are, at minimum, going to get thrown out the door, and you should feel lucky we don’t also light you on fire as you leave.”
We are not angry about the imaginary “perfect” Christains you are talking about Brad. I have seen not one scrap of evidence that they are any more real for the most part than Unicorns or Pixies, unless you count the various fictional accounts of all three you can find in made up books, TV shows and movies.
Now, a note on Unitarians and Annie Sprinkle’s post… Give me a break. Statistics on them show that like 18% or something *of* Universal Unitarians, when asked, say they don’t believe in God any more than any hard line atheist, despite being members of a “church”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism And you won’t find a single atheist denying love, charity, or anything else that gets labeled “spiritual”. What you will find is some that are rather irritated by using a word that implies supernatural forces of some sort, which contradict the total lack of evidence for such things, or some who don’t have that big a problem with the term, but are real tired of some people waving it around like it means something more than the sum of their emotional reactions to the world around them, and that therefor they “deny” its existence. The question of “if” such things exist is, honestly, as up in the air as anything else that *may* be imaginary, but where you can’t disprove it. The difference of course being that we tend to place the supernatural rather low on the list of possible things because nothing anyone has ever come up with suggest that such a thing “does” or “must” exist. This is in contrast with something like say, extraterrestrial life, for which we *at least* know the laws of physics, the age of the universe and the shear number of places such a thing might be, makes is “likely” that such a thing exists some place.
In other words, atheists don’t deny spirituality. They deny it special categorization outside the realm of reality and/or that the term, which carries with it the implication that they lie outside the real world, means anything in the first place, instead of talking about the “real” things that people arbitrarily toss into the “spiritual” basket, so they don’t have to actually think about what they really mean/are or how they happen.
Thanks awesome post!! I shared it with who I could. And our struggle is just starting to come to light. We will do great things if we can come together.
bleh… TLDR
Don’t you feel like your Luke Skywalker stuck in a Star Wars Movie? You must channel your anger. May the force be with you. Great Blog.
PEACE,
Brian
Very nice article. Apart from my being a heterosexual male, you pretty much captured my thoughts on this matter. I will now do my part and forward this on to my loyal base of readers….. all ten of them.
Cheers
I agree that this is a wonderful post and that our anger is understandable, organic, and justifiable – thank you, Greta Christina, for saying what I want to say nearly on a daily basis.
I also want to reinforce what commenter JJ Ramsey said: We cannot descend into our own forms of revisionism, our own quote-mining contests…in other words, we can’t stoop to the level of those we are trying to fight, even if being snarky is one of the things we’re really, really good at. It sucks to have to take the high ground, but ultimately I believe that’s what’s going to get the atheist “agenda” (such as it is) accepted into the mainstream. If anger provides the fuel for this, I say bring it on.
Say it loud “I’m godless and proud!”
I believe atheism is the new “Gay!”
More on atheism (if you’re interested):
I’m angry that religionists think the world can only be beautiful as God’s creation and can’t be beautiful otherwise. I’m angry with original sin, what chance does that give us? I’m angry that they claim all human spiritual progress as their own and take the credit away from the humans who made the actual progress.
Stay angry dude.
In reading the litany of religion’s offenses, I am reminded of a historical figure with an equal measure of anger: John Calvin, famous (infamous?) merchant and theologian. As a result of his anger and his writing, the Protestant Reformation was strengthened and the power of the (Roman) Catholic Church was curtailed. During his lifetime, he inspired tens of thousands to question various dogma pronounced by the Pope and other Catholic leaders. Since his death, his writing has influenced millions to grapple with tough moral questions.
In a similar fashion, Greta’s ideas posted here may have a profound affect on our world and on human beliefs, even well beyond the immediate recognition received on this site.
But let me offer this warning about the power of an “angry pen”: Late in Calvin’s life, when he had become famous, a small group of people claiming to be his “followers” proceeded to convict several of Calvin’s detractors of heresy. The sentence was to be burned alive. Neither the trials nor the punishment was dictated or even approved by Calvin. His readers were simply determined to act on Calvin’s anger. He is purported to have been despondent when informed of those deeds. To this day, many people attribute those deaths to Calvin.
Be angry; let your anger lead to redress the injustices you perceive and can influence. But know that the antecedent of anger is often hatred and the result of hatred is often violence. The unintended consequence of your success could be that 200 years hence, the same offenses that you have laid at the feet of “religion” will instead be attributed to “atheism”.
To turn a famous quote:
Never underestimate the power of a large group of ignorant people to destroy the goodness begun by a small group of believers in a just cause.
This is a beautiful post, and sums up exactly how I feel.
Old fashioned bigotry still exists – not towards any race or class – but toward those who don’t believe in fairy tales.
H/T to Calladus Blog for the link and thank you for your writing. I’m just not sure saying thank you is the right thing to say but it maybe all I can say.
I’m sorry too. Your words and anger and emotions were well written and if they didn’t break anyone else’s heart, they broke mine.
BTW, I haven’t bothered to read what anyone else wrote and don’t really care to. Your words were enough.
If this weren’t the Internet, I’d hug you.
H/T to Calladus Blog for the link and thank you for your writing. I’m just not sure saying thank you is the right thing to say but it maybe all I can say.
I’m sorry too. Your words and anger and emotions were well written and if they didn’t break anyone else’s heart, they broke mine.
BTW, I haven’t bothered to read what anyone else wrote and don’t really care to. Your words were enough.
“unimaginable enormity of the universe”
I know pedantry is perhaps the second most annoying thing in the world (first is proselytizing), but “enormity” is not a synonym for “enormousness”.
I know it’s used like that all the time in the popular (and not-so-popular) media, but they’re all wrong. Someone, somewhere wanted a word that means “enormousness”, but rolled off the tongue more smoothly. Said person moved right past correctly using “immensity”, and settled on the archaic word “enormity”, which actually means depraved abnormality.
Sure, eventually, the dictionaries (being descriptive, not prescriptive) will move the newly-added corrupt definition to the head of the entry. But I can still complain about some journalist who didn’t know how to use a dictionary resurrecting a dead word with the wrong meaning because he/she thought it sounded better.
I’ll close with that, before I get started on “moot”.
Wow.
Why don’t you come over to England?
It’s a lot more easy going over here.
Amen!
Arg! Did I say that!?! I totally agree with you. You’ve given me a few more points to bitch about… on top of the already huge “why I hate christianity” list. Kudos!
Now to go do my own ranting…
More angry-emo-atheist-woman rants, please! I didn’t even know it was a genre.
An athiest friend sent this to me. I find it funny and sad – sad for all you people who don’t have faith and are so angry. I don’t meet too many believers who suffer from this kind of rage and anger. seriously, get a life. My take on atheists – you folks are scared of ‘faith’, cos you do not have it, do not understand it, maybe wish you did, at some level, and are damn scared!
You might want to use your anger at helping the world – stop trying to be angry for the mis-guidance( if there is such a word) that happens to those who have faith. trust me, we can take care of ourselves. we have faith, dude.
You know what makes me angry? People who censor posts that disagree with their point of view.
Atheism is a religion.
This is an incredible post!!! I’m giving you a standing ovation. Thank you for speaking your mind and articulating so many of my feelings. Keep up the good work!
Huh. I never even had a faint idea that I should be angry about anything. Now I feel stupid.
((applause))
Huh. I never even had a faint idea that I should be angry about anything. Now I feel stupid.
You would not be so angry if you were a believer. I was angry all the time before I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord.
Wow. Brad’s comments perfectly illustrate everything you mentioned in your post … the complete, unthinking arrogance of those Christians who think atheists like me have to find God.
It was Christians who turned me off religion, and “god”, when I was in 7th grade. I’ve never looked back. And I’ve never a day in my life felt any need to pray to the sky father.
And by the way, the Golden Rule wasn’t conceived by Christians. It was already known to the ancient Greeks.
“You know why you’re not seeing atheists in foxholes? Because believers are threatening to shoot them if they come out.
Can we say: “Pat Tillman”?
A Bush is a Bush is a Bush is burning.
Fucking shit! I didn’t know about the jury thing!
Fuckin’ A! In complete agreement.
Wow. Sue’s comments perfectly illustrate the complete arrogance of those atheists whom think Christians like me cannot believe in God. Sue, you could be so much happier with life as you know it.
this is my first time here. my first comment. and no, i’ve not read preceding comments. just had to say…i applaud you! this is the single most well written, passionately stated piece about atheism i’ve read in a long while.
thank you! now i think i need to go back and investigate this site further. you may well be worth a more frequent visit.
When you are in “Us” vs. “Them” mode, it doesn’t matter whether you are “Us” or “Them.” Ego-driven outrage is toxic to anybody and everybody. No matter what God you do or don’t believe in.
The majority of the laundry list of valid objections you posted above have this very same folly at the root. The world’s religions are full of this kind of bullshit despite the efforts of many to get rid of it.
Anger sells much better than humility on both sides of the aisle.
But, by all means hold on to your anger if you feel you need it. It’s just that everyone you want to fight against is holding onto theirs just as tightly. Are you sure it’s the answer? Seems like the problem to me.
Even “Peace Man” Gandhi believed in the power of anger:
I have learned through bitter experience the one supreme lesson: to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmitted into energy, even so our anger controlled can be transmitted into a power that can move the world.
— Mahatma Gandhi
This post kicks ass. I’m right there with you.
I mostly enjoyed reading this article, save for the comments such as “As an atheist, I find myself wanting to kill every religious I see every time I think of the sheer misery caused by religion,” which don’t seem to me to be productive (or intelligent) in the slightest.
I am Catholic, but noticed that when I got angry in the course of reading the article, it was in agreement with the things being written — I’m equally angry at the Church for sweeping things under the rug, at the idea of young-earth creationism, and at anyone who says “America is a Christian nation.”
Please keep writing and being a force for change — you may not be able to get many people to abandon their entire faith (since it is, after all, belief in the face of a lack of evidence), but writing like this will be a powerful force in shaping a nation where religion is a purely personal matter.
Brad,
God doesn’t exist. I see no proof of his existence in anything I see or have experienced. Instead, I’ve seen a nasty being no different from Zeus or Thor, reigning pain and suffering down on innocent people.
What I have seen is the beauty of the world that has evolved without the intervention of any divine being. I have seen “Christians” like Anne Coulter, author of GODLESS, accepted and praised by good christians everywhere while she demonizes anyone who doesn’t believe what she does … just as you do.
I’ve been a successful novelist for 15 years, have a wonderful husband I’ve been married to for 21 years (no cheating, no divorce, no abortions … all of which are far more common in “christian” dominates states), and I see beauty all around me. I’m not missing a damned thing. And I’m fed up with people like you who have the nerve to tell me that I am.
You don’t know me, Brad. And that’s the arrogance. Believe whatever you want, but don’t try to tell me there’s any evidence whatsoever of this god of yours.
I’m done. I’ve got actual work to do. I’m not interested in converting, just being left alone to NOT be convenverted or told I’m not moral by people like you … exactly the sort of “christian” who made me come to the sincere conclusion that god doesn’t exist.
Sincerely,
SueinNM, off to her atheist meeting tonight!
Brad,
God doesn’t exist. I see no proof of his existence in anything I see or have experienced. Instead, I’ve seen a nasty being no different from Zeus or Thor, reigning pain and suffering down on innocent people.
What I have seen is the beauty of the world that has evolved without the intervention of any divine being. I have seen “Christians” like Anne Coulter, author of GODLESS, accepted and praised by good christians everywhere while she demonizes anyone who doesn’t believe what she does … just as you do.
I’ve been a successful novelist for 15 years, have a wonderful husband I’ve been married to for 21 years (no cheating, no divorce, no abortions … all of which are far more common in “christian” dominates states), and I see beauty all around me. I’m not missing a damned thing. And I’m fed up with people like you who have the nerve to tell me that I am.
You don’t know me, Brad. And that’s the arrogance. Believe whatever you want, but don’t try to tell me there’s any evidence whatsoever of this god of yours.
I’m done. I’ve got actual work to do. I’m not interested in converting, just being left alone to NOT be convenverted or told I’m not moral by people like you … exactly the sort of “christian” who made me come to the sincere conclusion that god doesn’t exist.
Sincerely,
SueinNM, off to her atheist meeting tonight!
I quite frankly don’t understand why you are so angry at religious people.
In all of human history there has been genocide, torture, witch burning, etc. and above all: hypocrisy – say one thing, do the opposite when nobody is looking.
What’s the big deal?
I think you are simply envious.
Religious people have found a mental gold mine: Do whatever you want with a good, clean conscience, as long as you have a deity to back your misdeeds, while atheists have to behave well in order to be able to look at themselves in the mirror – that’s all.
Well said.
*claps* Well said. I linked this from my LJ.
I think that once we do away with anger, we can be much more successful at making the change we want to see in the world.
well put together, this goes in my bookmarks for future reference 🙂
Wow… I was expecting to read the exact opposite article. How disappointing. All you hear from atheists is insults and anger, and you want to encourage that?
Good luck. This crap goes over wonderfully with the mainstream. Might as well make a tinfoil hat and cover all your bases.
You’re why I have to call myself a nontheist because when normal people hear “atheist” they think of shrill, screaming people like you.
I hear you loud and clear, and understand the frustration.
But, for me, mostly I am angry that atheists have to waste even another moment telling believers YOU MUST OPEN YOUR EYES TO SEE!
http://www.openyourfuckingeyes.com
Bully!
Bully!
Bully!
ok, that’s not funny anymore. I try to use the browser key to go back to the site i was before, and it reposts my comment.
well, i guess i agree with this blog x3!
Wow. This was an awesome post. Especially to me, as I consider myself deeply spiritual and Christian. I might take small issue with some of your points, but no more than I would other people from my own religion, and in most cases a lot less. In addition, I am impressed with your logic and you manage to get me to a place that I need to work on; you’ve pointed out some of my own hypocrisy. I can see it now, and it is something I need to work on; I thank you for that.
I’m impressed with the clearness of your statements, and the presentation of them and your evidence. Very impressive to me.
Anger is, in fact, the defining characteristic of most of the atheists I have ever met. And why shouldn’t atheists be angry? I’d be angry too if I knew that basically I had no worth, no purpose, and no meaning as an insignificant speck in the universe.
I found this article to be quite saddening. I do not share in your anger, nor am I angry that you are so much against Christianity, which I accepted as a kid and then rejected as a college student and then accepted again as an older and wiser person. I just feel a profound sadness that a person whose blog I found on del.icio.us would feel such an affinity for an emotion, anger, that rarely accomplishes anything but the destruction of the object. But then perhaps that’s what you want. I hope for better.
Amen, sister. 😉
Excellent rant.
I’ll pray for you.
HAHA Just kidding.
One of the best things I’ve read on the net, and not just because I’m an atheist too. You shared ideas that challenged some of my beliefs.
I think that people believe in God and worship God as a masked way of wanting to be God. You can see it in the power that religious leaders use over their flocks. BUT, you can also see it in the common believer, believing he/she is being humble but actually trying to achieve immortality and a link between their minds and the external world that doesn’t require action. Those are the qualities of a God.
Religion offers a promise of Godhood to believers but masks it in appearing humble.
Thank you so much for this. Someone needed to say it, and I’m glad it was someone with as much intelligence as you have.
hhahahahaha. Chillax. Live and let live. hahaha. You sound like a nut.
I just found this post through stumbleupon. I too have bookmarked it and plan to use it as a reference whenever I need it. Thank you!
“I get angry when other believers insist…that their own sophisticated theology is the true understanding of God.”
I think I take a position that can be misconstrued to fit your quote.
You may not agree that believers like us are right, but perhaps you can sympathze with our anger that other Christians are so obviously wrong in their practice of religion?
I don’t believe I have The Truth, but I see truth in Christianity, and it angers me when other Christians discard the truth I see in favor of all of the evil that you mentioned in this post. It is obvious that they practice a radically different religion than I do, and it pains me to be associated with them, because I sympathize with your anger on practially every other point listed here.
Wait. You’re angry at mother teresa?
JY, I do not adhere to any set of basic ideas or principles that have anything to do whatsoever with being an atheist. That doesn’t even make sense, because what atheism refers to is the fact that there’s one idea in particular that I do NOT adhere to — that god exists. And atheism itself implies nothing else. Nevertheless, I get called a “fundamentalist atheist” all the time. Probably because I have strong opinions that I am outspoken about that I have in common with many other atheists — but those opinions are in addition to my atheism, not part of it.
Brad: “If Christians acted like Christians, you wouldn’t be angry. At some point, after exposing you to God and the message of Life, we have to let you go. It’s up to you to find God after that… We can pray for you, that their be some intervention by the Holy Spirit, but badgering you is NOT the answer NOR is segregating you or making you do things you don’t wish to do.”
Careful here. This atheist here didn’t walk away from the mean, nasty, stupid, Jerry Falwell brand of Christianity. I walked away from a part of Christendom that was pretty friendly, and I walked away from it mainly because the evidence for it didn’t stand up to scrutiny. Truth to tell, this has ended up meaning that I’m not as angry as some other atheists, and it’s part of the reason why I get royally pissed at the cheap shots I see aimed at Christians. (Happily, this blog doesn’t do much in the way of cheap shots.) Still, where I’m short on anger for Christianity, I’m long on pity–and frustration.
Your “message of Life” is a mess. There isn’t even a clear biblical idea of what salvation even is. To come up with even a semi-coherent message, one has to cherry pick from some parts of the Bible and rationalize others. The typical evangelical Protestant message, when looked at closely, looks like a bizarre protection racket. (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php) And the connection between blood sacrifice and redemption doesn’t really make sense. It just doesn’t hang together.
Michelle: “seriously, get a life. My take on atheists – you folks are scared of ‘faith’, cos you do not have it, do not understand it, maybe wish you did, at some level, and are damn scared!”
We are scared of people who trust in what is untrustworthy–like the Bible, and are so sure of that trust as to be at least a nuisance, and all too often a menace.
Brad:
My challenge to every atheist I meet, is to ask them to read the bible and pray to the God (even if they don’t think he exists). Do this for a few minutes for 3-7 days. If they don’t feel a change in themselves, the longing for more, the need to understand what they are feeling than they can go along with their lives.
Oh, for the flying spaghetti monster’s sake. Why should we? If I told you that invisible leprechauns were at this very moment sitting on your shoulder and had authored a sacred text that you simply MUST read before you had the temerity to criticize my belief in the invisible leprechauns, would you be under any obligation to do so? Why shouldn’t I read the Bhagavad-Gita, or the Quran, or, to hit even closer to home, the recently rediscovered Book of Judas, which presents an entirely different version of what we now call the “gospels” instead?
The sooner you come to terms with the fact that you’ve dedicated countless hours of eminently usable life to a myth, the components of which were arbitrarily constructed by a council of old men with no greater wisdom or insight than that to which your existence entitles you, the better. Then perhaps your posts won’t be so ill-conceived. Think of all of the time you could spend on improving your comprehension, critical thinking, and writing skills.
The thought of all of that wasted time is what makes me angry, and THAT is my challenge to you.
I’m not worthy!
Great blog, I’ve been running my own blog for a short while now, because I’d turned into an angry atheist and wanted to get my point across. But after what you just wrote, I may as well shut my blog down, you have said it all (and way better than I ever have).
keep up the good work
Great post Greta! I totally sympathize with every reason. Especially, the sunday school teacher one. When I was 10 or so, I told my sunday school teacher that the light from the moon was reflected sunlight. She got so mad and told me that I had no right to question God’s creation. Can’t wait for your next post on this subject.
What dont atheists have that other groups of people have? Atheists do not have regular community meetings where people of the same world view get together and discuss artwork, writing, business, parenting, and a long list of other normal activities that atheists could be getting together to discuss and feel calm and part of a group of people.
Its less important to win the argument and its more important to just move directly to the post-won-argument, phase and literally as best as possible act like they do not exist. Identify every single religious word and stop using it, develop news words, that are not creepy, to be used to define ideas of a Post-God America.
The argument is about a way of life, and the fear is that if there wasnt a church that there would be moral chaos.
That is the ridiculous part of this whole thing. Atheists are moral because they want to be and because being moral leads to its own rewards that have nothing to do with the post-conciousness experience.
The Religious, I think they are angry internally because at their very heart, the real embedded ones, they are angry because they want to do terrible things but the fear of post-conciousness retribution keeps them from doing what they most want to do.
Atheists are good because we want to be, Christians are good because they have to be.
I strongly recommend finding a place to meet with other people that are of a similar world view and just have normal meetings where you discuss normal life related issues. Just intelligent people meeting to have regular intelligent discussions that hopefully would lead to the accumulation of funds for a better community center, a group creating and selling artwork might be the best way for an atheist organization to transcend its sort of bookish organizations that it has now.
Business meetings and philosophy discussions, maybe some time to just get together and listen to music together and have a group meet where we would talk about great music files that have been created.
No screaming, no yelling, just a nice comfortable vibe where we could literally show and discuss the benefits of a non religious lifestyle to people that just dont think its possible. Hell a group like this might get to witness something amazing, like someone finally getting it, that would be amazing to me, to be a part of an organization that every now and again gets to see a person realize the beauty of a world with no illusions.
Ill stop here, thank you for your writing, I am angry too, we should do something normal about it because if there is one thing Atheism has that all of the other religions dont, well at least were normal.
We have never spoken before, but you need to know that I love you so fucking much right now that it physically hurts.
Anger is a gift. Thank you for reminding me of this.
I’m posting this particular post to my blog’s permanent links, aswell as your blog proper. You’re going in my feeds & I plan to write a response to this more or less presently, as soon as I do a bit of thinking on it.
The great thing about being on the reasonable side of an argument about reason is that you end up being surrounded by brilliant minds; I feel much richer for having read this post.
Great post. Everyone else has said everything else. Just… great post.
Bravo, I say, bravo!
I believe in reality.
if you want to convince me of something, Prove it!
http://www.churchofreality.org
enjoy your anger
Personally, I think atheism is just as presumptuous as Christianity — just as it’s beyond our abilities to perceive whether God* exists, it’s also beyond our abilities to perceive whether God DOESN’T exist — and consider myself a secular humanist. Nevertheless, your critique of religious intolerance and justification of atheist anger about it is spot on.
Next time someone accuses you of being “angry,” look that person dead in the eye and say, “Yes, I am. It’s RIGHTEOUS anger.”
* Feel free to substitute the supernatural creation deity of your choice.
Totally. Fucking. Sweet.
I completely agree. And now my rage is fueled.
Amazing post. I feel the same way you do about all those things. It seems so clear to me that atheism is the obvious choice when people can draw the exact same conclusions without a bullshit guide book enforced into them.
I will definitely refer people to this when they accuse me of being angry and wasting my time!
As for Brad, he was a perfect example of what you were talking about. You already addressed his type and he still came up with the same old crap. I can only hope that he said all that without having read everything. If he did, it just adds to my sense of hopelessness for blindly religious to wake up.
You go, girl!!
I am a believer, a religious, and a Sunday school teacher, among other things (I’m also one of those many, many Christians who have never read the Bible in its entirety, and yes, you probably know much more about my religious texts than I do). I understand and agree with your anger. There are some of us who agree with you on most, if not all, of those points.
I am guilty of being one of those Christians who say, “but I’m not like that! The way *I* see my religion is different, and better!” I’m not going to ask you to come to church with me – I’ll make it clear that you are welcome to come, but I’m not going to shove my views down your throat. I don’t like it either when the other Christians try to shove their version of my religion down my throat, and I’m not going to be the one to do that to someone else.
For what it’s worth, I’m sorry. Excellent post. Thank you for writing it.
Wow this was fantastic to read. I am an atheist and i agree with everything you said. I went to a Christian camp once (i didn’t know it until i got there) and i would love nothing more than to send this to the counselors there who had a debate with me about gays.
…but i wont.
I want to father your chillin’s
Lame
Reading this article was like getting to breathe again after holding my breath for a long time. It seems that everyone is so religious. Why don’t they ever stop to actually think about it? When you do, there’s not even really a debate to be had. Just ask a question or two and the whole religious creed is proven irrational. It was like hypnosis, to me, growing up to be raised so religious. Even years after I was convinced of atheism by my own philosophical investigations, I was still wishing I coul believe, still praying to a god I didn’t believe in. It took a long time before I accepted my own atheism and was okay with being an atheist in a world of believers.
We need more of this kind of encouragement. We do need an effective movement. We need to speak up, despite the dangers.
Thanks for this. It’s so well put.
who gives a crap what you or anyone else thinks. once you’re dead you’re dead, so what’s the big fuss?! get over it already!
Just adding few things I would have added to the list:
I get angry every time a procreator thinks he wins the debate by saying that everything has to have a first cause but they get indignant when you point out that this is a hipocritical point on their part because they don’t think their god has a first cause.
I get angry every time some religous leader says that athiests worship darwin and say other things to try to make the a-religious seem equal with the religious so as to cause the religious to discount athiests believes without actually thinking about if this is at all true.
I get angry anytime I meet a recovering drug addict who was brainwashed into being addicted to their “higher power” rather than in living a clean life because it is the logical thing to do. And I get angry at the court orderd visits to these instatutions of higher power indoctrination.
I get angry when people who rail against any form of biological science eagerly demand a pill, especially antibiotics, from doctors. I get even angrier when these same people protest that doctors are playing god each time they try to cure some medical condition.
I get angry when religous leaders try to convice people that all scientiests are atheists when the vast majority of scientists are religious and in fact the majority of people who are religious belive that the world is far more than 6,000 years old
On that last point I am angry that all of those people who are religous still stick around in a religion that they know is telling them false like the world being only 6,000 yeas old.
Or for that matter any time someone sticks with a religious in the hopes that it will change to better agree with some of their notions on how it should really be.
I am pissed off an angry at those who lie about science’s findings and try to convice people that dino’s and people lived at the same time and don’t just keep saying this but add to it by buying up dino theme parks and start pushing their lies, aka bearing false witness, on kids.
I get angry every time the churchs demand that the government stay of of their church but they, being holier than thow demand the right to put their church in our government. This isn’t chocolate nd peanut butter, this is a prohabition in the Constitution.
For more on these topics visit faux_pseudo over in livejournal land.
atheists are as bad as any religious type…you just don’t know it cuz you’re too wrapped up in your bitching. this is the worse blog every. you’re nothing but a sob story. jesus christ!
Oh. Man has for centuries tried to be independent and to justify his refusal to accept responsibility.
Yet, we must all answer certain questions.
1. Where are you?
2. Who told you?
3. Where is your brother/sister?
Where then did we get guilt from? why does our nature gravitate to evil?
The Love of God is the ultimate. God is not against man but for man. If only atheists knew that God loves them, the’ll quit being angry.
Yet our freewill will not be tampered by God, for without freewill, true love can’t be exercised.
God read up what descartes, darwin, and the other atheists said on their death beds. It’s the end story that matters.
Just a question:
If atheists didn’t have the religious to hate- what exactly would they be believing in?
An add on to my first comment. I get angry every time a procreator thinks that telling an atheist they are going to hell is a valid threat. If one doesn’t believe in God how is one to believe in hell?
Hello Greta. I see you checked in at PZ’s. I am one of those who have been baiting the misognist creep there. I just want to say, I saw no problem with you not addressing the problems with Islam. While they are definitely a threat, the threats closest to us have to be the first priority.
It seems this will be lost in the flood of responses that is here. But I have to ask, what is it like to be loved and hated by the responders.
Great post.
This is wonderfully put, and it (especially the latter section) desperately needed to be said. Thank you.
Exactly why I avoid any and all discussions about religion/gay marriage.
I start throwing things.
Exactly why I avoid any and all discussions about religion/gay marriage.
I start throwing things.
Many thanx, Greta. Sometimes it takes hot blood to be appropriately galvanized. As you point out, in reason, we have much to be hot blooded about.
To Stomper: One way to be defensive is to be deliberately obtuse. Churlishness and obstinancy are the resort for those who cannot engage in discussion. Expect the “gaslight” treatment from most Catholics and other Christians.
I agree 100%. It’s almost time to fight back, and we’re becoming more and more vocal and visible.
I think your article hits on some great points. Anger is a good thing in the right circumstances. Anger is a good reason to become a unitarian. I go to church with wiccans, atheists, catholics and hindus who want a common community and aren’t sure that what they were taught as children is true. The common ground is repect.
You go girl!!!
You ought to reduce this to a .pdf file so it can be downloaded, pictures and all. It should be handed to anyone who claims we are angry. No, better yet, it should simply be handed out to everyone.
Richard Dawkins was surprised during his first book tour to America supporting “The God Delusion”, when a commenter asked him about atheist anger. He didn’t know what they were talking about. If he read this, I think he would have a better understanding now.
I’ve been angry for having wasted what so far has been the bulk of my life believing in something that doesn’t exist. I just hope I live long enough to be able to say it was for less than half my life.
I’m looking forward to 91!
Thanks for saying that. I suspect that some day we’ll look back on this as a seminal moment in atheist blogging.
What a pathetic life you must lead.
Why not be happy because you live in a country that lets you be you.
I don’t see anything to be angry about.
Ah, your a lesbo, now I understand it, you can’t marry your girl and your all pissed off. Hey, here’s an idea, go live in Iraq.
THANK YOU. YOU EXPRESSED MY FEELINGS PERFECTLY.
Wow! Greta, whoever you are, thanks for your fine words. I feel energized and almost optimistic that there is still some sanity left on the planet. This is a keeper.
wow. thank you for this.
Brad’s challenge is valid. I’ve done that when I was a child who truly didn’t know what was true and what wasn’t, and I felt emptier when things never changed for the better. I dropped religion in first grade. since then I’ve felt much more empowered knowing that there isn’t an entity that rules over me, at least not in the sense that Christianity (or almost any modern religion) implies.
I have a challenge for Brad: research the theory of evolution (and please take a closer look at how the word “theory” is used in science), read some Richard Dawkins’ writing (“The Illusion of Design” from 2005 is really good), and ask yourself why you write science off when one of its guiding principles is the constant search for truth, while Christianity sticks to what was written in a strange book a long time ago. Over hundreds of years now, time and again it’s debunked religious premises, and any good scientist will tell you that a scientific, empirical, testable evidence of God’s existence would convince them of it.
That kind of open-mindedness cannot be found amongst believers, because those who are that open-minded have already seen through the facade.
Eloquent, passionate, thoughtful. You are priceless. Thank you.
I didn’t read your entire post as I got sick of saying: “Yes, I agree.” Over and over, but what I did read was very accurate.
hey there, i’ll keep it simple. pretty good stuff and thank you for the post. i enjoyed the read and you make a lot of good points, supported with links.
i’m more of an agnostic but we seem to overlap for the majority of your points.
This is brilliant! You are absolutely right on so many issues, thanks for the great read!
As a non-angry non-atheist, what I’m looking for when I read atheist blogs is a greater understanding.
I can work from (my own) first principles and get to my own values system and understanding life’s meaning. What I have a hard time doing is understanding is what first principles atheists come from.
I stumbled onto this post quite by accident. I am Pagan and pretty much angered by all of the same things you are. Imagine the looks and gasps of disbelief when you tell someone you’re a witch! HAHAHA!! I don’t usually use that word, but I will say that I’m Pagan if asked. I got mad when this handed me a sheet of paper that basically said I was damned to hell if I didn’t believe in Jesus Christ being the lord savior, blah, blah, blah…
But now I kinda laugh at it…and maybe I’m not so angry anymore because I don’t feel the need to prove shit to ANYONE. This is me…fuck anyone who doesn’t like it!! Thank you for speaking out for the other non-believers…GREAT POST!
Why should you be angry if there is no God, girl? You’re just a big, evolved, bacteria that got here by accident, right? So, who CARES if you are surrounded by a bunch of stupid chimps who believe in absolutes?
No. No more civility. Anger creates change. Spot on.
Free Fucking Burma NOW.
Rock on.
I don’t know how else to put this except: That was fucking brilliant. Thank you.
Sweet Zambah G-Zaz that was a good rant!
We’re not too angry. Its just the discrimination and subjugation we have all suffered for years finally being given an outlet at last! Enough of us have finally have the courage to stand up and declare that we have had enough! We aren’t going to take this bullshit sitting/laying down any more!
If you push your outmoded, superstitious belief and acceptance of the completely unacceptable onto me, then I’m going to push back twice as hard!!
As a gay person, I probably have more anger towards religion than a most people in the world, the hurt and harm religion has caused gay people is simply beyond reckoning, and it continues today with the apparent approval of governments and their petty short sighted views which have been steered by the church!
So, damn right I’m pissed off and angry! Give me a reason why I shouldn’t be!
It also pisses me off that we were hunted for bounty for 1500 years.
It seems to me that most of your problems with religion are problems that plague all of humanity. People are ignorant and easily led. There are plenty of passionately patriotic atheists who believe every single thing the government tells them. This is just as dangerous as believing everything a priest tells you. I’m sure you are aware of this, but people are fucked up, ignorant, and scared. Not just some of us. All of us. We have to fight this on a daily basis to become fully actualized human beings. Religion is just one of the many symptoms of the overall problem: Us.
Absolutely amazing post.
This is the first time I stumbled into this blog… it’s now bookmarked.
A huge thumbs up to your writing.
Im angry that you don’t see religion for what it is: a way to organise stupid people into not causing harm.
Remember 50% of the population are below average intelligence by definition, and these people need something to continue.
Your assertion that an absense of religion will NOT remove morality is completely unbased: we simply do not know what the world would be like otherwise. I imagine there would be more harmful “religious like” organisations like scientology appear for these people, and much more harm would come from it.
Religion is prozac for the masses. Its true.
fantastic post.we need more stuff like this!
Sorry to say this, but it seems most of your anger and reason to be athiest is comes from the injustice of other people and corruption of churches.
Take look at Islam, not a critical look, but a comparative look, and you will notice a religion so different, you might have to rethink what religion really is about.
Get all the angry you want. It’s our country. We win.
What are you so angry about?
You refuse to question your own belief system — yes atheists, you have a belief system, though you may not know it. Faith in observation, reason and the universe’s ultimate intelligibility by man is still faith. (But our faith is smart, theirs is stupid.)
You perceive something as injustice — it makes you angry. Flies like turds — turds make them happy. Same diff. We’re all just slow burning chemical equations right? Or is there something more?
It sounds more like your just hating American Christian’s because by and large they’re assholes. No problem there, but call a spade a spade.
Greta, I am almost in tears after reading this. Not because I disagree, but because I agree so passionately with everything you’ve said.
Instead of trying not to be an angry atheist (or that close second, the “bitter fag”), reading this has reminded me of both my right to be these and the need to be bitter and angry.
Thanks for reminding me!
–JB
Very well-argued and salient points. But however validated you feel your anger is, the general public won’t see it this way. Who garnered more respect: Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcom X? Until you can speak out positively and eloquently, few will listen with open minds. Sure, you can argue that the constructs put up against profanity are artificial and irrelevant, but it doesn’t change the fact that they just won’t listen, just like those who protested in Washington DC this summer wearing suits received much more attention and respect than the hippies. At some point you have to accept the hand society has given you, and instead of being pissy about your pair of deuces, why not play the game their way and bluff your way to your a better hand? You will only be more respected because of it.
i read your profile and think i should come all the way, across the continent to San fransisco. Find your sweet adress and make love to you and your wife Ingrid both.
Enough words.
Brilliant piece. Anger is an energy! (as JohnLydon said, in a slightly different context).
You are a FUCKING genius. Thank you so much for that entry. You have the argument skills I lack – thank you for speaking for me. And you’re right! SO RIGHT! We’re not all bitter. I am one of the most optimistic people I know, I just don’t put any hope into an afterlife and I don’t base my moral/ethical decisions on any doctrine – doesn’t make me morbid or nihilistic. Thanks again.
Excellent.
“I get angry when religious believers make arguments against atheism — and make accusations against atheists — without having bothered to talk to any atheists or read any atheist writing.” Ummn…you obviiously have no understanding of what it is to be a christian (along with many so called christians). Most people have very little understanding of bible scripture and what it means. They have been taught under the catholic understanding of so called christianity, and that is to trust and believe in preachers, priests, etc. Yes, even protestants. That teaching is not consistant with bible teaching. Christians are to study to show themselves approved. So when looking at christianity, I offer you a set of basic rules. 1st: CATHOLICISM IS NOT CHRISTIANITY!!! You will see some of of the most hidious acts come from that so-called church! It has been that way in the past, and history is repeating itself right now! You just don’t know it yet. Not just the molestation, but lots more. Research the Jesuits to get an idea of what is going on still. 2nd: Do not look to people! If you want to know what christianity is, read the words of Christ! Is that too difficult to understand? Christ is who we are to pattern ourselves after. Sadly, many “christians” lack the most basic understanding of this fundamental principle. And when you see anyone who is famous and powerful, even Billy Graham, assume they are not christians. They are likely not, as is the case with the afore mentioned evangelist. He left his christian beliefs a long time ago due to pressure from the pope. Sad situation. Which leads me to rule 3. 3rd: Politics and christianity do not mix!!!!!! When you see a snake tounged politician touting the name of Christ like a slogan, he is likely doing it to appeal to a christian base! Bush, I’ll say he is not a christian because of his affiliations with Freemasonry and Skull and Bones. These are occultic groups who deny their allegiance to the God of the bible to attain the highest degrees. Twisted but true. 4th: Don’t be so quick to assume that you have it all figured out. You don’t think that the matter is so simplistic, do you? That you, with very little study or effort have just looked around you, accepted what you have been taught by your dad, beefed up your anger, thought about all the flaws related to religion, grouped all religions into one cluster, and just like that, you are the know it all athiest come to save the day. Right. You have not begun to scratch the surface of the depth of this matter. Did you ever consider that all the athiests that you are reading may not know what they are talking about? Yet you study their words religiously to strengthen your position on a matter that you or them know nothing about. Now don’t just read that last phrase I just wrote and get mad. Stop and think about that for a moment. Really think about it. So here is the last of my points for right now. 5th: Christianity is not the angry protestors, aggressive and angry political activists, politicians, catholic hierarchy, etc, etc, etc. It is about the reconciliation of sinful man to a holy and perfect God. A God who loves his fallen creation so much that He fulfilled the requirements of His law, in our stead, in order to give us a chance to live and be restored to perfection so we can be in relationship with Him again. What great love. The call of christianity is to share that message with everyone. Anything else is just uncivilized. No seriously, it is that simple. As a christian, we are to become more like Christ and emulate His example and share the good news with everyone. One more thing I have to mention, Jesus is a real person. Historically, this is a reality. The gospels are well supported historically with extra-biblical evidence of His existance as well. So calm down with all the anger so you can think!!! This is not a joke in case you have not realized it. Ask yourself have you been decieved? Were your teachers right? I would be in the positions of Christians who gave up their faith if I did not study and get to know God through His word. So take another look. If you are right, you will only strengthen your position. If you are wrong, then you will beging to see some flaws in your way of thinking. Wow, this reply is like a blog within itself. I wonder if you will actually allow it to be posted?
It’s a pity your mother didn’t have an abortion. Go to hell!
As a religious person, I would like to first congratulate you. Never before have I seen such a list as this laid out so thoughtfully and professionally, while maintaining its writer’s passion. Very well done.
Second, I would like to apologize. While I obviously can’t speak for anyone but myself, I would like to make it known that some of us religious folk are trying very hard to move away from the kinds of things you listed here. It grieves and angers me that such a list ever even had to be made, but I can totally understand and sympathize with most of your points. Though to be fair, I must admit that I know a total of about 4 people apart from myself who still consider me to be religious. Most people just call me “spiritual”, “philosophical”, or “confused”, terms I hate more than almost anything. They say I have moved too far from “THE CHURCH” to be a Christian specifically (my views are Christian-based with added Hindu, “Eastern”, and maybe Gnostic elements), and too close to logic to be religious in general (I fully accept evolution and support gay rights).
Be that as it may, I still consider myself religious, and I cannot apologize profusely enough for the way “my people” and I have treated the rest of the world throughout history.
By all means, stay angry. Without anger, I never would have broken out of the mold of evangelical conservative Protestantism, and instead of this I would probably be blogging about the “crazy atheist hell-spawn whose anti-Jesus ramblings are destroying this blessed Nation from the inside”. So stay mad!
What is it that atheists want? Is a question posed in one of the comments, and apparently if you listen to the current book publishing atheists, they would seem to want to be angry. However if you read them right, they are actually angry at stupidity more that anything else. Many groups are stupid as a collective, if not the majority or them, the masses are asses is a quote that comes to mind, and Iâm sure a mass of atheists would not be very much different. This isnât so much a war between theists and atheists; itâs a war between educated and non-educated people. When it becomes as polarized as it is today, individual voices are drowned out, and the voice of reason takes on water. I appreciate what Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens are doing, however I think itâs time they got back to their respective fields while they still have their day jobs, this seems to be consuming them and they will suffer a lack of respect among their colleagues.
Itâs okay to be angry, as long as we keep our heads and not resort to the tactics of the uneducated.
Epic post. You win the gold medal.
Ever think that mainstreaming atheism and throwing off the chains of religious bullshit (in all regards, but we can start small) is our generation’s contribution to the future?
I do.
Incredible article, Greta. Just found your wonderful blog. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I can’t fucking stand Christians/Catholics, organized religion of any sort. I was “baptized Catholic” when I was born and put into a Catechism every Wednesday until I was in 8th grade. I actually believed in their shit up until I grew a brain when I was 10 and started questioning their motifs. People would pump fear into me, say everything I did was sinful, all that bullshit. The hate grew stronger and stronger. I was displeased that I had to go through all that bullshit. My parents claim to be “falling Catholics”, but really, they’re just agnostic motherfuckers. And I can’t fucking stand that they say I’m a Catholic, just because I was baptized. I don’t believe in that bullshit, I don’t identify with it. Now, I’m 18, ready to vote and change our little shit hole into a better place, to get religion out of fucking state, even if it takes more then a lifetime.
By the way, although, I agree with pretty much everything you said. But the Nihilist statement “”Atheism is a nihilistic philosophy, with no joy or meaning to life and no basis for morality or ethics”… when if they spent ten minutes in the atheist blogosphere, they would discover countless atheists who experience great joy and meaning in their lives, and are intensely concerned about right and wrong.” I mean, I myself am very interested in Nihilism, but I still enjoy life and live it to the fullest. But, I don’t really see any meaning at all to life. We’re here, this is our lives. But fuck being gloomy and depressed about it being meaningless. Might as well enjoy it and get the most out of life as you possibly can. Take every opportunity you can get. Hmm, but perhaps, I’m not really a nihilist. I’m just myself.
Thank you :),
Ian.
Blaming religion for all the ills of the world is a little like blaming the weapon for a murder. It isn’t the knife that killed but the person wielding the knife.
I am angered by much of the same things that anger you about “religion”,pedophilia,thievery,slavery,the inquisition et al.. The problem is not the faith of the believer,but the wielding of that faith like a sledge hammer. The biggest problem, as I see it, is the intolerance of the religious elite, you spoke of. The religious “elite” of the world are indeed dangerous. It was the intolerance of the religious “elite” that sentenced Jesus to death. My religion is based on faith and nothing more. I gave up paying attention to the elitists when I figured out none of them really get it. I try my best everyday to live my life according to the teachings of Jesus and no one else. I don’t claim to have an answer for the rhetoric about creationism vs evolution. It doesn’t matter. I don’t have prove or disprove either one to have Faith in Christ and who he was and what he did, for me and you. I understand your anger and on behalf of all Christians I’m sorry for the intolerant behavior you have experienced at the hands of misguided and uninformed pseudo- Christian elitists and their followers. Please forgive us.
Amen!
~~~RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD~~~
TAOISM > Shit Happens.
SUFISM > Shit Let’s Dance!
SHINTOISM > Shitting Now.
LUTHERN> Divided Up Shit.
JANSENISM > Shit letâs will it.
UNITARIAN > Whatâs This Shit?
BAPTIST > Let’s Roll In This Shit.
ATHEIST > I Don’t Believe That Shit.
CHURCH OF GOD > Shit’s Out There.
URANTIA > Can You Believe This Shit?
AGNOSTIC > I Believe Some Shit Stinks.
CHRISTIANITY > He Died For This Shit?
HINDUISM > This Shit Happened Before.
ISLAM > If Shit Happens, Take A Hostage.
Protestants> Our Shits is better than theirs.
ZEN > What Is The Sound Of Shit Happening?
CATHOLICISM > If Shit Happens, we Deserve It.
TV AVENGELEST> We Want Your Monetary Shit.
MORMON > Shit Happens Again & Again & Again.
EVANGELACALES> Faith Will Heal Your Shitter.
BUDDHISM > When Shit Happens, Is It Really Shit?
7TH DAY ADVENTIST > Shit Happens On Saturdays.
CONFUCIANISM > Confucius Say, “Shit Will Happen”.
JUDAISM > Why Does This Shit Always Happen To Me?
JEHOVAHâs Witness > Knock Knock “Shit’s Happening”.
HARE KRISHNA > Shave your Head So Shit Can’t Happen.
RASTAFARIANISM > Let’s Smoke This Sticky Cannabis Shit.
COMMONSENSE > Only You Dude, Can Stinking Shit Yourself
Nicely written, thanks for that.
Btw in England gay couples can have a civil ceremony.
if ya liked this kind of truth, watch this video if you havent all read.. http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Incredible, it’s nice to have the most relevant of points and arguments displayed in such a coherent and correct blog. Thank you!
Greta,
Your treatise on “Atheists and Anger” was superb!
Ken
Greta,
Your treatise on “Atheists and Anger” was superb!
Ken
Thank you for this article. I was prepared (as a believer) to âget angryâ reading it. Instead,
I found a person angered by many of the same things that anger me,
like “cosmic shopping list” praying.
âAnd I get angry when other believers insist that the cosmic shopping list isn’t what religion and prayer are really about; that their own sophisticated theology is the true understanding of God. I get angry when believers insist that the shopping list is a straw man, an outmoded form of religion and prayer that nobody takes seriously,âŠâ
I disagree. Some atheists refuse to listen when âsophisticatedâ believers try to explain their beliefs, ignore us, & keep right on arguing against what has become, for THAT conversation, a Straw Man with respect to THAT âsophisticatedâ believer. Do you atheists truly believe that we believers are all Fundamentalists
deep down? If so, câmonâthatâs BS and you know it.
However, if you mean that, in the USA, in terms of numbers & in terms of public power out of proportion to those numbers, many
believers are of the Fundamentalist âcosmic shoppingâ variety, I agree with you.
Why shouldnât you flay âcosmic shoppingâ if it is so prevalent in the US?
There are two phenomena going on with respect to âreligion:â
(1) a deep-seated human need to believe certain things & to control ones environment in certain ways, and
(2) whatever is âtrueâ (assuming for a moment that 100%
post-modernist doubt of âtruthâ goes too far), regardless of my âneedâ
to believe / be in control.
This, I submit, is in theory true of all humanity, every religion, and also true
of atheists, at least in theory. Whether or not some atheists, to some degree,
âunbelieveâ for irrational reasons I mention as a theoretical possibility without
pointing fingers. In my own observation of people over 54 years as a âliberalâ
believer, we all (including atheists) are irrational some of the time, some of us
(and some types of belief) more than others.
Tillich spoke of 3 âexistential threats:â (mortality, morality, & meaninglessness, or death, damnation & loneliness). Those are universal.
Add to them that life is unfair (JFKâs term) & some suffer far more than others,
& you have some people with terrific trauma going back to infancy. Such people
may be irrationally âgullible.â They may be irrationally âskeptical.â They may
be no more or less rational than anyone else. Or they may grow very wise.
If there is a God, she does not send specific woes to a person to make them wiser, but the universe(s) as a whole may be as it is because for God, it is more important that sentient life be free & independentâat riskâthan enslaved/overprotected. The author of Job thought so. That is NOT getting
God off the hook by blaming the victim. Godâif God existsâis by definition ON the hook & can never duck ultimate responsibility. If God exists, God suffers.
âI get angry when believers trumpet every good thing that’s ever been done in the name of religion….Neither side gets to have it both ways.)â
I agree â both ways.
Greta,
I decided to embellish a bit…
Your prose flows smoothly yet swiftly like a mighty river; your emotion resonates vividly and profoundly like birds chirping during a sunrise over a golden meadow; and your arguments glisten brilliantly and formidably like diamonds on an imperial crown.
You deserve to be heralded for crafting and contributing such an important and superb treatise. Bravo!
Ken
Over the last year or so I’ve found myself transitioning from “closeted atheist” to “pissed-off atheist”. It’s been really nice reading about your justifications. I hope it empowers everyone who reads it as much as it empowered and inspired me.
Repost to angry atheists….
I liked this post because it touched on so many injustices. Very good topics and intelligent views. Of course, you know me, I didn’t agree with all of it. That wouldn’t make me a true freethinker now would it?
However, I liked reading it and the author makes some very valid points. I suppose mainly that whenever something corrupt, greedy or opposing my rights pops up, there is usually some damn religious group aiding my enemy. Over the years I wonder why this is.
For the religious, I believe trying to introduce “the angry atheist” view is a tactic to discredit the atheist by giving the “appearance of evidence” to support the idea that “No God = No Happiness”. It makes me happy and disheartened both to hear this idea spread about because it means they are using defensive tactics. People only use defensive tactics when they feel they are being attacked from a worthy threat. If I were an atheist, I would take this silly tactic as a compliment.
I am not saying it isn’t a dangerous idea, only that I perceive it as progress. Why would they say anything at all unless it unsettled their belief system.
Doesn’t it say somewhere in the bible we are to question everything. If we were to take complete faith, how do you know you aren’t worshiping that false idol they wrote so much about?
Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of injustices married with religion in this world and I say be very angry at that and fight those injustices. You gotta fight for your right to party! And everything else apparently. I have a few assholes in the world in high positions of authority that I am not too keen on so I am on the same uphill battle as the author.
If we are sensible people, we can learn a little from each other. I have learned a little today from this post.
I know many non-religious people that are equally as happy (if not moreso) than the religious. So I don’t believe that all atheists or even the majority are anger-encompassed.
I have been victimized several times in my life. Sometimes deep seated faith in religion was involved and sometimes just good ole corporate greed. Sometimes dirty evil people, period. My take on this article is that it possesses many great points. But the anger seems solely placed on the religious believer and not on so many other atrocities where religion is not a factor. Maybe anger may be best used focused on one factor of human suffering. So I do not argue due to my ignorance.
I know believers that are my family and good friends (and atheists alike). These people would put their life on the line for me. They have their own religion but would never be a part of denying anyones rights or pushing their religion on you. They are good people and are for civil rights, anti-discrimination, lesbian and gay rights and yes, even legalized abortion et cetra. Of course, if they did not hold these views then they would not be true freethinkers and I would grow bored with their company and part ways.
That being said, I do believe their are many people I don’t know out there that are ignorant, closed mided idiots who should have to take a reality test to be able to vote. When I say many, I mean many! There are large groups of these sheeple and I do not like that. I don’t like that these blind idiots are forcing political agendas for their beliefs in their religion. I don’t like that politicians are going along and fanning the flames and using this blind faith approach for political gain. I don’t like blind faith over lack of common questioning of things.
I am agnostic and happy with this label. I am no better than any other label. I think I am only better at thinking than certain individuals. My ideas are my business and will be pushed onto noone. I only talk of my views as philosophical discussion. To improve ideas and possibly enlighten or be enlightened myself. I am not so rigid, but rigid enough.
I see the problem with the religious right emerging slowly over the past 10 to 15 years. I don’t like it at all. Influencing laws and politics. We have freedom of religion and separation of church and state. These laws need to be enforced. Get your damn church out of our state affairs.
Although not religious myself, I believe greatly in spiritual growth and becoming a stronger, better person as we go through life. This takes discipline and the acceptance of pain. Sometimes this pain is in the mind because we have to alter our ideas about a faulty religious belief or accepting this god thing to be a possibilty. I want to make it clear that I do not connect god belief to any religious beliefs.
“Random thoughts about my definition of god. And I do believe in my version of god”. It is my right under the first amendment.
I don’t really know, I guess I think of god as a force sort of like in star wars. I think god is not all powerful and is maybe a force struggling in the universe to survive and stay alive in a difficult environment we call the known universe. I think god and the devil might be the same thing. Not as deities but as forces interconnected. Sometimes I think maybe god needs our help and we were sent here as tiny little cells to evolve and become a manifestation so that god could live on. I don’t think heaven or hell exists and I don’t think I am being watched over to see if I do the right thing or not. I don’t know this and I have no facts to back up my ideas. What I do have is the right to hold these ideas as an everchanging philosophy according to my life experiences and the teachings of the sciences. I do not think god loves or hates me. I think it is in a different realm that may be impossible for the human cortex to grasp. I do understand science and I understand the limitations. I can attribute missing pieces of science to the unknown but not to religion by default. In my world, god is undefined. Ambiguous.
Live in the world, learn all you can, question everything and encourage people to think for themselves and fight for their rights. Teach children to do the same,how, when and most importantly why.
Our allies are not always bound by religion, political affilliation, race, sex, or any other label or group. We have true freethinkers, freethinker posers, non-thinkers (sheeple), and the worst of all, the freethinker who uses this ability as a tool to manipulate and oppress all others for power and personal gain or satisfaction at any cost. Sheeple usually follow these types. This is the mental illness I am concerned with and am taking steps to extinguish from our society.
Just a few thoughts,
Tony
You should NOT be regarded as a citizen, NOT be regarded as patriotic, NOT be able to serve on juries, NOT be able to testify in court and NOT be able to hold public office.
You said it right sister, “This is one nation under God.” Accept it or fucking LEAVE, you little snit!
Sure, my comment is removed. I’m fucking angry because MY freedom of speech has been denied!
Great comments. I wish I had the guts to send this link to all my friends who are always emailing me their little religous stories. That’s the thing I get angry about. My friends wouldn’t be my freinds anymore if I did but I have to tolerate their religon while they won’t tolerate mine. Sucks.
Greta
Thank you so much for that. Sputtering inarticulate rage that was not – it was well focused, like a laser, and powerfully fueled with your (ours) vehement rejection of the idle minded forces which plague us.
Big hugs to you and yours. Let the rage out like this and it won’t kill you. It will make the world a better place. And for that, again, I thank you.
Cheers.
You are a very angry man. I have as many reasons (or more) to be angry by the way Christians are treated now-a-days but I am a grown up and intelligent enough not to let silly things get me so angry. Much of what you have said is simply opinion and much more is greatly exaggerated. Get a life…next week we’ll work on living it. Then maybe you’ll have some purpose in life for a cahnge and not be so preoccupied by these silly little things that have you so angry.
Excellent. Thank you for writing this.
Wow. Very impressive, and informative, rant. I feel you have every right to believe however you choose, and to be angry when you are stifled. I am a Christian, and believe that God gave you that right. I also do not believe THIS COUNTRY has any right to yea or nay gay marriage, or abortion. That being said, if asked by a polotician, or in the form of a vote, I will always try to prevent what I see as sin. This is my right. If I am in the majority, it becomes law. That is how democracies and republics are supposed to work. I am not sure (I am not real computer savvy), but if you can read my email address, please feel free to contact me. I would enjoy ‘talking’ with you! You seem very intelligent, informed and oppinionated! These are GREAT characteristics in a pen-pal. An athiest friend sent me the link here to help answer some of the questions I plague him with. I try very hard not to argue points based on emotion, but on evidence. I also enjoy the deeper discussions of religion just as discussions, not arguments that need to be won. You blog thingy was so long, I couldn’t begin to answer it all. Much of it I agree with, or at least acknowledge your point. You should have rights. I just want to make sure my children learn what I BELIEVE TO BE THE TRUTH, the same as you would want your children to learn your beliefs. The decision is ultimately theirs, but I will not stand idly by while my child is force-fed concepts that can’t work, like evolution [feel free to discuss this with me, it’s one of my favorites!]. I don’t tell the school not to teach it. I just discuss my beliefs with my children and let them be prepared to make their own judgement. All Christians are human, which means we all make mistakes. We shouldn’t ever judge (sin), or hate (sin), or threaten violence (sin). But we also shouldn’t worry (sin) or fear (sin) or… smoke cigarettes (pack a day here). I will never be all that a Christian should, but if you would like to debate (honestly and not argumentatively) your ideas with mine, i would be honored.
I have 6 children, 4 girls and 2 boys. Your opinions, insights, and experience will help me understand some of what they will go through in public school system. Write me sometime, ok?
God Bless you. Sincerely.
Here’s a moral question..What is better, to kill people and worship God, or to kill God and worship people? I choose the latter. I think people should believe in what we experience through our 5 senses, meaning hard transportable proof, over things that were written by men with agendas a very long time ago. If there ever was a God who knew all, and since he supposedly created us, then he himself (or herself) shouldn’t punish us for his own creation. God created everything and that includes anti God sentiments too. It just reveals hypocrisy, something which when I encounter it in life, I have to attack it. I propose that whatever created all there is, it was created in the simplest of forms and evolved from there on it’s own. We weren’t dropped here fully formed, there’s way too much hard proof to support that tenet. I always like to ask religious people if they think that there is other intelligent life in the cosmos, and if so, do they believe in Jesus too? That’s so preposterous. We can’t even agree on this planet about the identity of God. If all the people in the world believed in the same exact God with the same exact interpretation, I might give it some credence, but there are just so many different religions, which one is right? I think that they are all wrong. I will continue to listen to the scientists that have hard irrefutable proof about how we arrived here, thank you very much. Thanks for articulating so eloquently the feelings I and so many others have.
Atheist anger is understandable. And if it spurs atheists to action, fine. The question is whether it makes believers more or less apt to listen to what we’re actually saying. Are Democrats more apt to listen to what Republicans are saying when said Republicans are angry? Or vice-versa? Are kids more apt to listen to their parents when the parents express themselves with anger? And so on.
Some good points, but I see little anger directed against the most irrational manifestation of religion today, Islam. Could it be that our bold little ranter is afraid because radical Christians may make threats, radical Islamists actually carry them out.
Hmmm. I suppose it would be pretty easy to write a similar article about all the evil and pain in the world that has been delievered at the hands of atheists, then juxtapose that against all the good that has been done by the hands of people of faith. As one of those people who find great meaning in a life of faith, I’ll say with this author that the vast majority of the items she mentions make me angry (and/or embarrassed) too. But their existence doesn’t make faith irrelevant. Based on some of the posts here, I’d say there’s a fair share of hostile, sarcastic, and maybe even violent people “without” faith. Is that the alternative? Of course not.
One asked: What is better, to kill people and worship God, or to kill God and worship people? I choose the latter.
My comment: Who said those were the only two options? Try this instead: Kill no one. Worship God. Try hard to love people who are different than you, even if they are conservatives, or liberals.
If we’re going to preach the gospel of tolerance, we need to tolerate people on both sides of the middle.
🙂
Religion emergence of the concept that everthing in the universe has a single all-encompassing explanation. From this point forward all was interperted to have a purpose.
The purpose of (religion) beliving in a purpose was to mitigate the fear of the unknown, the incomprehensible, and the unpredicatable that has stalked man’s steps since the beginning.
The mepaphysical continued to be involded to explain the physical, because there was no other way.
When belief in purpose was added, faith took on form & structure. A theology began to develop. Religion seperated from superstition.
Science will never replace mythology. But people need to analyze the knowledge. That can be validated by evidence acceptable to an intellect trained in the dispassionate methods of experiment and induction.
Religion is the reluctant fellow traveler of superstition, and science attempts to disown then both, in vain.
All I have to say is…You have come across some pretty shitty Christians. Before painting the broad stroke of sterotyping hate-speech, get to know some Jesus-followers beyond those you read about. People who write things like this scare me because it reminds me of a great Jew-hater who was just as angry by the potential takeover of the world by Jews. He and his gangsters slaughtered millions in the end, but their angry protests started out just as subtle as blog-mania. The true Jesus-followers I respect don’t look like your broad generalizations. You would want to be their friends. And you would want them caring for you when you’re sick or poor. You would want them watching your children. Get to know some – you might be surprised.
I’ve never read your blog before, but I certainly will start reading it regularly starting right away. Just a couple things to add to the list (from my personal standbpoint of course):
Iâm angry when I tell people that I donât believe in a god, any gods, at all, and they respond by saying: âoh me too, other than, I believe there is Truth/Spirit/Goodness running through us/guiding the worldâ As though somehow the fact that we both donât believe in a literal interpretation of the bible makes us the same, and that they then assume that I DO believe in some silly mist that just floats around, making people do good things…
Relatedly, I’m angry that people assume that good people must have *some* sort of belief in *some* type of god-like thing, even if said person has explicitly stated that they do not. Like somehow not being an asshole/actively striving to be good becomes proof that you are spiritual/religious.
Iâm angry that a person can get more legitimacy in their quest to do good if they coat it with religion, Iâm angry that growing up I actually had reason to think: âwell, maybe I can become a nun and just never tell them that I donât believe in their godâ in order to find a way to be able to decry injustice.
You are angry!
Beautiful. I couldn’t have said it better. I’ve read it 3 times already and I’m still astounded. I love your anger and your passion. I couldn’t try to begin to replicate this in my own words, so I’ve linked my readers to your post.
Dear so called atheists,
please realise that we are humanists, not necessarily atheists.
We are responsible to our ourselves and our peers. Theism is not the norm.
We should not deny other human beings their right to warship whatever they fancy. Neither will we accept judgement based upon believes.
Moral values are human norms for human life.
Greta should not bow to ahumans and be angry.
Don’t worry Greta, be happy!
There’s some legitimacy to what you’re saying, but not much. The great irony of ‘angry atheists’ is that in saying, and I quote from many of the comments, “DEATH TO RELIGION”, “Religion is evil”, etc. It’s illuminating that in seeking a live and let live mentality, you adopt the very mentality that you claim to detest. You’re of course free to say whatever you want, but your credibility is diminished by those who keep badmouthing religion and those who are religious.
“Everytime I see a religious [person] I feel like spitting in their eye?” (from the comments) Really? That’s pretty sad, and you must be angry a lot.
I’m Christian, but I have no problem with Atheists. Live and let live is my philosophy. Should the US government be as religious as it is under Pres. Bush? Of course not. Have atheists been discriminated against, been harassed, had horrible things happen to them? Of course they have. But so have all minorities in one way or another. So many of your examples of why you’re angry are responses to individual viewpoints.
Being angry at religion? Of course it’s your right; more power to you. But the world is over 90% religious, and like it or not religion permeates a lot of people’s lives. It serves for a lot of people as a source of comfort, as a source of faith, as a source of happiness. And yes, a lot of bad has been done in the name of religion. But if you are incapable of understanding fundamentally why religion exists, then live and let live. If you see these people as ‘ignorant’ and ‘sheep’ and ‘dumb’, that’s your right, but they get something out of religion that you don’t, and you shouldn’t disrespect them for it. Should religious people be saying these terrible things about atheists (for example that they caused 9/11)? Of course not, but the other side of coin applies just as well to you.
As an atheist, by definition, you do not understand why people are religious. To blanketly state that religion does more harm than good kind of misses the point. I commend and applaud your viewpoint, but it’s what you have chosen to believe in. Want to be angry about it, fine, but this generalized attack on religion is silly. Obviously this is a very one-sided comment board, but I just wanted to give the other perspective. I don’t write this to offend or attack anyone, but simply to offer another perspective.
Nice post. I like it.
Says the polytheist. :o)
I’d liken religion to belief in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. A harmless belief that can provide some joy to children. But there comes a time when all children have to grow up and realize that Santa isn’t real, that it’s your parents who put all those gifts under the tree (or by the fireplace).
It’s when you take that belief in Santa Claus, and let it affect other areas of your life — for instance, attempting to get airlines to stop flights on Christmas Eve to avoid potential collisions with Reindeer — you take the harmlessness out of it and can become a serious liability to society.
I have yet to have a single person tell me WHY homosexuality is immoral. I’ve gotten the “It’s not natural” argument — which is disproved by nature. I’ve gotten the “It can’t lead to procreation” argument, but if sex is only supposed to be for pro-creation, the Catholic church should also be against the rhythm method (not just barrier methods) of birth control; logical extension of “it can’t lead to procreation” restricts sexual acts to 4 or 5 times in a lifetime, unless you want a really big family, and might even see it banned completely, given that science can circumvent the whole process now anyway.
The ‘only for procreation’ argument could also be extended to food being ‘only for nutrition’, which would make eating potato chips, candy, spices, etc. all immoral — many of which do much more harm than the healthy exercise achieved through sexual intercourse.
I too, could go on for days… and I am in favour of religion. I think it fills a valuable niche, but only if its followers are able to question and selectively ignore parts of doctrine that make no sense and/or are actually harmful.
Anger is not healthy…atheist or not. Am I supposed to be angry because I was born black? I carried that badge too long. I will never let anyone dictate how I feel or think. I became just as bad as the ones that egged my house, tore up my yard and shot at me.
Historically, some of the greastest “Christians” were also sexist and racist in the name of religion. I can’t be angry at them, I have a relationship with God and realize that they are human just like I am. They may hide behind religion to express their true ugly nature, but God is love and I know He isn’t “cool” with that.
The Bible says that others are to know that “we” are Christians by our love. I sometimes go to extremes because of love, but rarely do people get angry. Although I don’t treat life and death issues lightly,
I would never argue with an athiest about there belief, but if my faith depended on the actions of the Christians from my past, I would be an athiest also. I choose to look at God and not the sometimes idiot representatives that forget that we are to be known by our love.
Uncle Nappy
Preach it sister!
I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore:
Brilliant post, thank you for writing it.
God does want my team to win march madness. Its those Devils (usually Blue) that frequently get in the way of God’s righteous plans (God often picks the same team as me in the heaven pool).
You sound angry, dude. Just remember, despite your anger and hostility, Jesus still died for you and still loves you. He’s forgiving that way. If you had just a tiny piece of that in your own life, you could forgive, as well, and get on with your life. God Bless.
You sound angry, dude. Just remember, despite your anger and hostility, Jesus still died for you and still loves you. He’s forgiving that way. If you had just a tiny piece of that in your own life, you could forgive, as well, and get on with your life. God Bless.
Got linked this post from this thread on Kotaku.com:
http://kotaku.com/gaming/night-note/whats-with-the-narnia-hate-311757.php
never been here before, but I really enjoyed this piece, and will definitely be coming back in the future.
Also, thanks for shout out for Blankets, that comic rocks.
Well thought out ideas? They are one liner attacks on an what are overall isolated incidents. One could easily counter and provide extremely similar arguments that point out flaws in atheism and horrible deeds which they did.
Each faction of society has its zealots and sheep. I see many here. I don’t deny that they exist in religious sects too – God knows we’re teeming with them. But do you see what is happening here? One person is spouting rhetoric and others are eating it up. This happens in all realms where the uninformed are, be it theistic or otherwise.
I would be much more impressed to hear, why, how this information came about, some history of the situation, and proof that this is a problem shared uniquely and universally by people of faith. The fact of the matter is that its not.
While I understand and quite honestly agree with most of the points, I feel its like saying all black people are subhuman because one robbed this guy, another was shooting, one was doing crack while another led people to rioting and looting. Its absurd and an elementary argument.
Great article, well spoken. And what a nice bunch of posts! No bickering and kabitzing! No names and insults! What? I thought all we atheists were angry!!
Especial thanks to the Methodist who read with an open mind.
“what women do you know who would submit to their husband if they had a man of utter integrity who provided for her, served her, served others, and made her feel more loved than humanly possible?”
A man of utter integrity? I defy you to show me one that actually exists. And, no, that’s not coming from a man-hating perspective. It’s coming from an all humans are flawed perspective.
“Probably all of them… And I don’t mean submitted in the context you are familiar with, but submit as in allow him to lead, be apart of him.”
Not me. I want a partner, not a leader. I wouldn’t submit to a man of integrity, much less a real, human, flawed man.
And I have read the Bible. All of it. More than once.
Great rant.
It took until 1997 to force South Carolina to allow an atheist for public office
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/silverman.htm
6 other states still have the requirement but don’t enforce it. If this was brought up already, I apologize .
Still censoring posts I see, that makes me angry.
I don’t know what any of that has to do with my faith, beliefs in Christ, or my local Church, so well done! I hope after all that venting you and your fellow atheists feel a little bit better because adding to the anger in this world probably isn’t going to amount to anything good.
That was a fun rant to read (I’ll probably continue to check in on your blog, good job!) and I thought about refuting every argument you made, but its already been done. The answers are out there, I entrust people to find them and to constantly verse themselves in deeper arguments and understandings of what they believe and what they ‘think’ they oppose.
Obviously you oppose religion, but given the unsubstantiated arguments presented in a slanted context you could just as well be a Christian mocking the lack of intellectual depth to more critically blemish the ideologies behind religion and faith.
Instead, I will impart to you a principle of my faith in the face of your anger and extreme distaste for my faith and beliefs:
God Bless you! Jesus loves you and I along with many Christians around the world pray for your health and well-being!
I live in the South and frequently hear innocent remarks such as “My son went to the dentist, a good Christian man.” This is so annoying because it implies that any non-Christian is not good, ethical, or morally responsible.
I don’t what GOD actually is and I certainly don’t know how HE/IT or whatever affects our lives. I am sure you do not either.
The comments you have show that you really haven’t thought about the real question in all of this. It is what is GOD?
I have come to the conclusion that GOD is the force of all those who believe in a higher power, whether it be man-like in appearance or merely collective will of the believers. GOD may be a thing, event or being…
The next question is what is an athieist? One who does not believe in GOD?
Hey, I don’t believe in abortion but I am not going to write a blog about it. If you don’t believe, then don’t believe. I am angry that you feel you need to evangelize you beliefs…why do you need to do that? Because only you are right? You are only pointing out your own flaws by speaking out. You have nothing to fear from true christians…and be advised those who run churchs are no more holy than myself. Their mistakes and wrong doings are theirs. The Church is a group of people gathered together to worship GOD, nothing more and nothing less.
I am angry that you feel so put out by us “holy rollers” that you need to attack us. Why is that?
You have given many examples about the actions you perceive as against you, when in fact you blaming an entire group for the actions of one.
If you don’t believe, then don’t.
Atheism is not a religion so don’t treat it like one, you are being mislead most likely for the benefit of others…whether that be what we might call Satan or just an evil person. Satan doesn’t hang around the bars and strip clubs, he hangs around the front door of the church, he wants to destroy those whose main goal is love…what is your goal?
Think it over…how many of your words are truely your own?
Good post about the things that make you angry and why that anger can motivate you and others to social change.
Anger may motivate people to join a social movement, but to effect change at some point the leaders have to set aside their anger and come up with a reasonable plan and set of goals, not gripes.
Few things cause a person to become defensive more than an angry person charging at them. That’s not the place for reasoned discussion “kill them with kindness” communication and perceived changes to take place.
If anger gets you motivated to think about changing something, great. If that’s how you think you are going to make changes, I recommend you re-think it a little bit.
…
On Christians — consider for a moment how parents are treated in the news media. If you wanted to learn about parenting in America and looked to the news for your sources, you would conclude that 90% of parents abuse or murder their children, and the other 10% merely use their children to live out their own fantasies. Normal parents, good parents, don’t make the news. Yet there are a lot of them out there.
I believe it is the same way with religion, from Christianity to Islam, and even a few fundraising Buddhist monks in between. Only the negative stories make the press. So if it is the press that makes you angry, when talking to a real person about these issues keep in mind that they are not the press.
Don’t take all your anger out on them, because just as there are far more good parents than reported in the news, there are far more reasonable religious people than get coverage in the press. If you condemn each one for the transgressions of all the others you’ve heard about it will be very difficult for you to ever live in peace with your religious neighbors.
–Beth
This is such a great essay. Your anger is justified. Your points are very articulate and I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve said similar things to well-meaning believers who feel the need to proselytize their fairy tales and/or make their personal mythology public policy.
Thanks for writing it.
Waahhh Wahhhhhh I’m angry…. SO WHAT? What does it matter. You don’t believe in anything anyways so in the end, what does your anger mean?
Why don’t you get down off your cross and use the wood to build a bridge and get over it.
I’d like to say good job. And someone commented ” See, Christianity is about believing by faith that God created us, sent his son to die for our sins, etc (I’m sure you know the rest)
”
One thing I’d like to say is Catholics are the only ones that believe that God had a son and sent him down to save us.
Two Christians do put alot of pressure on others to believe in God. They say they’re open minded but they aren’t. I spend almost everyday in a catholic school. I know how it is. No one knows I’m athiest and therefore that doesn’t matter at all. I still am pressured.
About the pope. Catholics don’t need him to have a personal relationship with God but they pretty much litsen to practically everything he says. You say jump…they’ll say when.
I mean there is more to Christianity than a bunch of hypocrites but not enough for it to matter.
You’re my new hero.
Thank you.
Reasons for being angry? And you didn’t mention that god hates amputees:
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/
I’d say that was a fairly good reason 🙂
TLDR
I can say that I am Christian, and I’ll let it out right now that I agree entirely with everthing you said in this paper. There is only one church I’ve ever been to that I haven’t been angry at, and that is primarily because they are tolerant — of Atheists, of Muslims, of Buddhists, etc. If it isn’t a church’s job to appeal to their congregation and attract people not in their congregation, what, exactly, is the point of a church?
The problem is that too many people think they can entirely understand God, and too many people think they aren’t susceptible or required to abide by the same things any other person is. The prototypical example of this is my aunt — who will yell at her daughter “Stop swearing, Damn it!” This is basically what religions (frankly, Christianity in particular in this country) are doing.
I don’t mean to sound like I speak for everyone. I hold the belief firmly that everyone has a right to search for their own meaning in life (or in death, as the case may be), and as long as you aren’t interfering with anyone else’s right to do that (sharing religion and forcing it on someone are entirely different — the church in general usually does the latter), I have no problem with anyone.
I have a problem with the church. The same problem you do. Perhaps the bigger problem is that people are NOT questioning what they believe, as you have.
I think I love you.
As promised, I drew up a bit of a response to this on my own blog. Thanks again for writing this.
Well said! Thank you for taking the time to write this out and find relevant pictures.
Just letting you know that you aren’t the only angry atheist out there..
I think youve watched 1 too many hitchens debates, and now you think that by regurgitating him, you’ll seem like you have an ounce of intelligence and credibility on the subject. I have news for you, whenever you meantion Atheists, dont ever use the words “We” before it, because you are not and cannot speak for a group that doesnt exist. You miss the entire freaking point of what atheism is, so i recommend you keep the emphasis on yourself and not pretend to represent atheism in any way, shape or form.
Right on, sister! Thanks for articulating our position so well. It’s time we atheists use this anger to make some progress and leave 2000 year old mythology behind.
WTF? I couldn’t even finish reading. You have personal issues as great if not greater than any Christian you attacked…
You do have some valid points, but should have thought them out and researched them even better before posting to your blog…
Maybe you should READ the Bible, not for “religious purposes” but to educate yourself, you may be amazed over how much you AND the Christians have it wrong.
Just to touch a few biblical facts (the church IS evil BTW)
Abortion IS legal and sanctioned in the bible.
What happens in the bedroom between 2 married people isn’t even God’s business.
There is no mention of homosexuality being wrong. Just the mention that if you’re NOT homosexual, and engage in those acts, that’s wrong…
It was the “Happiness of Sinning” and overall wickedness that led to the end of Sodom and Gammorah, NOT just homosexuality.
The Catholic Church has condoned condom use for some time now…
And BEST OF ALL…
You’re pissed at the Church for not letting you use a condom and then bitch about no abortions?
Baptist or Catholic? YOU’RE FUCKING WHITE!!!! I highly doubt you’re a “southren baptist” or Muslim…
Most people who are dying DO WISH to have a member of a church present, and I’m even willing to bet your fathers dying breath was in prayer. Regardless, just as you got pissed off about the question, there are those who would be upset were it not asked.
There is no pleasing everyone, and each to their own. I have accepted it and you should too. Untill you’ve done so you will continue to be an angry loser.
followed a link from goingchurching.com…
None of the things you’re angry about are necessitated by belief in God. That is, one can believe in God and also be very angry about everything you listed.
You’re anger is not for athiests alone. Share it!
Ryan: “But however validated you feel your anger is, the general public won’t see it this way. Who garnered more respect: Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcom X? Until you can speak out positively and eloquently, few will listen with open minds.”
The thing is, Martin Luther King *was* angry. He channeled that anger very positively, but he was as angry at injustice as so many Old Testament prophets.
The trick is to be angry without resorting to demonization and sloppy thinking, something that the less famous atheist bloggers like Hemant Mehta and our own gracious host have been much better at than the current opinion leaders like Dawkins.
Oh, and Spanish Inquisitor, I don’t know what the legalities of including the pictures in a PDF of this blog post would be, but yeah, it would be a good thing to pass around. Seriously.
I got to this link kind of randomly, but I’m intrigued and compelled to comment.
I come from a christian family and my father is a liberal methodist minister. I have a love hate relationship with religion. I love my father and appreciate how he has presented the idea of religion to me, as something that is interesting to explore, that can do much good for people but not something that must be believed. It’s a personal preference. I also hate religion for all of the reasons you presented.
That was my background and I am now probably going to be one of those people that makes you angry. It seems as though you are angry with religious individuals and I find that a bit unfair. Throughout history people have sought answers for things they couldn’t explain and ways to deal with difficult things in their lives. Religion provides comfort and answers. It is easy for an educated individual to understand that the world may have come about by random events and it is acceptable, but for many people it is difficult to find exposure to that kind of information and more importantly, a social network that would support those ideas. I completely understand being angry toward religion, and toward people who seem willingly ignorant, but I also believe that it is important for everyone to try and understand various perspectives so that people can find common ground amid stark differences. While the bad might outweigh the good as far as religion goes, I think it might be a mute point. Until we have a world where people don’t need easy answers to cope with mystery and hardships, religion will be around and I find it difficult to be angry with religious individuals who sincerely find it comforting.
If you want to be unhappy – keep being angry.
I think you’ll find it won’t help you very much.
You don’t have the right to choose for other people… otherwise you are just the same as the people/attitude you are angry with.
You know… even Jesus got angry once…
Amen!
Amen!
THANK YOU.
Organized religion is the worst thing to happen to this world.
Anger is a secondary emotion. I too have much anger. Anger for intolerance in the many forms it arrives in. Anger of the daily struggle for wealth and survival. Anger for the relationships I’ve lost with others.
Under that anger… what lies beneath? A quiet acceptance of society, and a simple agreement with myself to live life by my own accord, not those set by societal norms, and a hope for the sake of having hope. Life is simply complicated.
Amen Sister!! 😀
I’m angry too, and for all the same reasons you describe so well, among others.
I want to ask your permision to translate your text to put it in my blog, which is in spanish.
Great post.
You know, I feel that if I blogged a list with pictures about just how pissed off i am at society as an atheist, it would look exactly like this. I think that atheists will have their day, because I’m sure that after the “war on homosexuality” and the “war on illegal immigrants”, America will be more than willing to spend millions of dollars on eliminating education, and, by extension, any way that people would become enlightened to not having religion in their lives. I do believe that all this anger will boil over though. It’s eating away at me, but I think that anger and injustice will eventually lead to change. I will be there to make sure that those changes happen in my lifetime.
You just won a new reader. A+
How about accepting the fact “GoD” is the first label ever given to the universe, and “MoM” is the most frequent first label for “GoD”.
Bravo, although I am agnostic, I feel the same way as you about many of your points. Keep being angry and maybe someday you will cause change
Bravo, although I am agnostic, I feel the same way as you about many of your points. Keep being angry and maybe someday you will cause change
I guess I just can’t disagree even as a loosely faithful Christian (maybe it was because it was forced into my life as a child.), but I Agree almost 100%…
Most of the list of things that anger you about politics and those things I completely agree.
US wasn’t founded on God it was founded on the freedom of Religion. Just those in charge chose to be thankful to their “God” which has now given way to the Religious radicals that are consistently found almost more disgustingly horrible than those they are trying to outlaw. Molesters / Child Porn or just Hypocrites of Do as I do not as I do!
Again US is supposed to be free. Marry who you wish but don’t be angry at me. I agree with you and am not happy about many of the same issues. My voice is all I have I just notice when I yell uncontrollably that my point is lost and I am ignored.
My Advice:
Keep the Anger/Rage/Emotion
Have others Keep their Cool While Doing it! Be angry at the politicians and idoits but not your neighbor who isn’t athiest because they may well disagree with a few minor points of religion but agree on sooooo many other levels.
But to each their Own! Thx for the POST!
Bravo, although I am agnostic, I feel the same way as you about many of your points. Keep being angry and maybe someday you will cause change
Very good lineup of WHY atheists are “angry”, I put it in quotation marks because a lot of it isn’t about anger, per se, it’s about concern. Massive massive amounts of concern.
And as an atheist, I’ll tell you exactly what I want. I want religion to get off its pedestal. By force if needed, but I’m more than willing to extend a hand to help it down. It’s one moral theory among many, and in my opinion in a lot of ways its deeply flawed. Even if it wasn’t flawed the favored position in society might not be a good thing.
Being religious does not make you a good person. It might. But chances are you’re a good person to begin with, and we tend to choose a theology that matches are secularly defined values. But when people can hide dangerous/assholish behavior behind religious belief? That’s not good.
Sure, it is fun and very satisfying to be angry.
And it sure beats trying to understand. All those people out there believing in ways you don’t want them to? Terrible. They are bad people, and you have every right to be angry at them.
And, demonizing is great fun. Getting angry is step one to demonization. Then, bomb them. Or terrorize them. Maybe send them to concentration camps, or Abu-Ghraib.
Anger is great. After all, if you are angry at them, it must because they did something bad, and that means that you can do whatever you want to them because they are bad. Beats logic.
Anger, of course, is great for getting in touch with the higher primitive urges. Go for it!
Or not if you want to be civilized or rational.
Steve
Wow, I feel like such an asshole for not wanting you to go to hell. Forgive me for being offended by the fact that you’re a dick.
there’s plenty to be angry about, but your article goes so far overboard that it largely loses any value it might have otherwise had. many of our fellow athiests will eat this stuff up, but keep in mind those of us who are just embarrassed by it. no offense, but this is the type of stuff that makes it easy for people to hate us.
You seem to have so much more anger than reason for it, and when i read why you are angry, especially about religious parts, I’ve never heard anything come close to the claims you make, nor have I ever said any of those things. I don’t no if when you say “religious leaders” you are talking about all religious leaders or just certain groups. Also it seems like you just bunch everyone together. If i heard some of these things done by, especially catholics, i would not find that reasonable, and would side with you . Also, you cant blame giant things, like the spread of AIDS in Africa on the Catholic Church, thats just naive and stupid.
I get angry when militant Atheists are angry at Christians just for being wrong. Yes, there are things to be angry about. I am angry about Christianity a lot of the time. But being angry at Christians for being ignorant doesn’t help anyone. It certainly doesn’t help our cause.
AMEN.
Greta, thank you for using your talent for expressing what so many of us struggle to say.
As an ultra-fundamentalist Christian (according to Wikipedia) I’d like to let you know that I agree with you on a number of areas.
I’m very disturbed by Evangelicals and there tendency to try to force others to have the same views as them. And more so, I’m bothered by the fact that they cherry pick what to belief from the Bible.
I’m even more angry about the Catholics and their persecution of other Christians. The Papacy would definitely force us at the point of a gun to worship as they tell us.
And I get angry whenever people kill in the name of religion. It’s not what Jesus would do.
When atheists vent, I tend to nod more than shake my head.
Bravo!! That’s really all I can say. This should be printed in the Times or the Post, or somewhere where millions of people can read it.
Oooo thank u!
That is very awesome what you wrote.
Yea my comments are all n00bish but I don’t feel like making a soliloquy haha (spelling?)
You’re a very angry person. Perhaps you should find God?
your pretty angry. as a semi-catholic, i could care less what u believe or dont believe in. Thats for you on your own time, as every other american should. This is the land of the free, FREE to do what i want, when i want, how i want to, and as long as i want. (with in reason…) its just a shame that some sick people have to make movements for what they believe, to press their belief on the masses.
This was a great post. I’ve always felt angry about what we atheists go through but I’ve always tried to ignore my feelings and go through my day. I think that I should probably be more pissed off. Thanks again for writing this post. It was very empowering.
Please read my post before you delete it, I am being civil.
I would like to point at that I’m a Christian and I’ve never oppressed someone with my beliefs. I believe it is wrong to have abortions, and I believe homosexuality is a sin.
I cannot FORCE someone to do what is right, they have to want to do what is right.
All I can do is show them, and you, the love of Christ. I believe he died for my sins and yours, and my responsibility is but to spread this news I believe to be so miraculous and then to show you love as Christ loved me.
YIM: [email protected]
MSN: [email protected]
AIM: DeadtoSin01
Xfire: mogLDeadtoSin
If anyone needs to contact me then you may. If it offends you that I gave my contact information then I would not be upset if you edited it out.
This was a great post. I’ve always felt angry about what we atheists go through but I’ve always tried to ignore my feelings and go through my day. I think that I should probably be more pissed off. Thanks again for writing this post. It was very empowering.
Very well written and very emotional. Good job.
Great. Now the atheists feel empowered. It’s like pissing off a bunch of pubescent teenagers and having to put up with their whining..
I can’t stand many of the big “churches” either. Most of they aren’t “real” if you know what I mean. Especially the catholic church and a lot of those mega churches.
Most of what you hate is done by these fake people, not by what real churches or christians do.
I understand where you are coming from with all of this, because I’ve seen them do it too, and I don’t consider it christian.
More reasons why some anger is valuable:
According to studies, “it appears that when distinguishing between various arguments, angry people disregard information that’s irrelevant to the quality of the argument, such as its source. Neutral subjects, however, give undue preference to those clues.” Another benefit of anger: “responding to a stressful situation with a reasonable amount of anger can make people feel more in control and more positive. (It’s worth noting that in their study, Dr. Moons and Dr. Mackie didn’t see that high level of certainty among subjects.)”
http://people.howstuffworks.com/anger-decision.htm/printable
This is the first atheist post I have read…ever. I agree with most everything this person says. I have been an atheist myself for a long time. I’ve also been angry for a long time. Religion had its time and place. The United States has evolved to the point where atheism can take hold because we can now exist without worrying about what god will do to us. There are still TONS of countries and sociologial systems that still depend on basic things like finding food and water.
Those “caveman” ideas are what promote the want and need to covet thy neighbors things. It’s called competition and power. Religion was the answer for all of this because people did not posess the self control to understand what they should and should not do. They knew it, but didn’t have anyone forcing it down their throats with consequences if they didn’t. This can be argued in an ethics class as to wether or not man is born good or bad. Those things are still up for debate as well.
If responsibility can be utilized on a day to day basis, the only reason for religion is to provide meaning and explination for the world around them. I’m not sure anyone will ever find a “meaning” for life, but for those that are not comfortable with not having one, or making up their own, they will need religion.
I, personally, would love it if religion ceased to exist (pun intended). Religious people look at me the same way I look at every single person that believes in religion. You all know that look when someone finds out you don’t believe in god. It’s like you just stepped off the deep end, and they have just lost respect for you.
The hardest thing I ever had to do was tell my in-laws that I refuse to go to church with them, because I don’t believe in god.
I am a confirmed catholic and I understand some of your points, especially the argument about the soldiers, thats messed up.
But let me tell you what I am angry about
I am angry that every single atheist has tried to convince me that I must be stupid because I believe in God.
I am angry that atheists honestly get angry about so many people believing in God.
I am angry that you think its wrong only 45% of Americans would vote for an atheist president because its THEIR views, not yours. You cannot tell me what my views are. You can however tell me your views.
I am angry that I have a scar on the left side of my face that required 32 stitches and its all because I am catholic (I was jumped when I joined in an argument over this very topic and spent a week in the hospital alone).
I am angry at catholics, atheists, jewish, muslims, homosexuals, straights, whites, blacks, asians, mexicans, democrats, republicans, and communists because they cant accept that everyone views everything differently.
I am angry that you made claims about hating homosexuals when the bible doesn’t say that, its just what YOU BELIEVE.
I am angry that you said the Catholic school systems teach us to despise our bodies, thats not even close to true.
Mostly I am just angry at the people who shove beliefs down other peoples throats.
I used to be an angry atheist – then I studied philosophy a little and realised that agnosticism was the only rational viewpoint (in my case apathetic agnosticism – I don’t know if God exists and I don’t care either way) and really I should be directing my anger at specific institutions and their actions rather than religion itself.
I do think you would be less angry if you lived in a less religious country, or even a less religious part of the US.
I’m just so glad I don’t live in the US. The state of your country is just plain horrible. I can’t even imagine what it would be like if in my country a politician could not get elected for being an atheist.
A lot is being said about the stupidity of americans. Well, statistically speaking most americans believe in God and religion and stupidity correlate. The more intelligent/educated a person is the less likely he/she will believe in God/gods.
I hope one day it will be possible for an atheist to lead a normal life in the US like it is in the rest of the western world.
Thank you for articulating so much of what I’ve felt for so long.
Thank you! You’ve summed up many and more qualms we have with religion, not just Christianity!
And, along the lines of the medical “miracles” you might look up “Why doesn’t God heal amputees?”
Thanks again!
-Dave
yea! Thank you!
very well said
yea! Thank you!
Hear hear! But the truth will continually be further brought to light. I have no problem with faith, as long as it bends to logic. And while it’s certainly one thing to be able to explain away absolute zero, atoms and Ammonites, but it will be another completely when we perpetually stave off death, live entire lives without ever setting food on Earth, and finally find irrefutable proof of living organisms that are not sourced from our planet.
I’m angry that nature decided that religion was necessary in the first place.
I’m also angry that on the bell curve of religiocity, I am left out in the minority with all the other freethinkers, where I have to take abuse from people who do not and cannot understand what I’m telling them (usually) by no fault of their own. I mean, look at some of the replies. Talk about not understanding! No, they’re not stupid. Their brains are simply wired differently.
I’m angry that this situation we’re in will never change as long as humans are humans.
Why do you want to get married so badly? Isn’t that just an institution that stems from religion? Do you feel it will insure that neither you or your partner will cheat or do you just want the tax break that badly?
You’re angry at Christianity. A lot of people are. Don’t however, dirty the word atheist with your selective, incoherent and under-informed ranting. You give us a bad name.
Learn2Research. Learn some objectivity, and then you’ll be more than a pissed of blow hard.
Skipped the logos and went straight for the pathos and ethos. A solid read, although it definitely preaches to the choir. Being more well-read on the elements- cognitive dissonance, Zapata’s revolution, and the like- could really bump this up to the next level. China is starting to turn to Christianity and we have to do what we can to reform America’s minds before human rights go the way of the dodo.
I call myself an Atheist for sociality’s sake, although I have been experimenting with a new religion for a while. One that celebrates the catalysts of individual and humanistic betterment and revolution and cites the constructs of original creation as the birth of sin itself. We shall celebrate what makes us human, and not who made us human, although we should do so in terms of progress. Until that comes to fruition, stay angry.
Found this on Digg. One of the best reads I’ve had in a while!
I’m happy and saved. Have a nice day!
As an Episcopalion preachers son, i say be angry these are valid reasons.
But know theres some good ones out there. My dad is one of the few religio leaders my roommates, all atheists, like.
The idiot that said that Catholicism is a “very small” subset of Christianity needs to be enlightened that Catholics make up the largest subset of Christians BY FAR, with over 1 billion adherents. The next largest Christian group is the Eastern Orthodox Group with 350 million or so (another nearly 20%). What’s left are the 30% of Christians who are some form of protestant, Lutherans, Baptists, Anglicans, Mormons, Evangelists, etc.
I hear you Ryan. “Coming out” to my folks was pretty tough. And it’s still a well-guarded secret from my extended family. Perhaps that “deep-end” look is just the flickering fires of hell that they see about to swallow you up. I know my folks are just concerned for my immortal soul. My mom insists it’s just a phase. It’s been half my life so far so it must be a long one. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
First of all, I’d like to “thank” all the “Christians” who have shared their posts and have clearly demonstrated their “wisdom”, which is something that an atheist cannot posses. Simply put, we live in a “perfect” world. The environment is absolutely perfect for life to exist. The gravity of the earth for example is down right perfect (just right so that our mass doesn’t kill us by attempting to walk). The temperature and rate of change (seasons) is absolutely”perfect”. The human species (who was made in God’s image) is the only living species capable of using reasoning and logic to the degree that we have the capability to wonder about who our creator might be. Only an atheist would believe in evolution which believes that it is by chance (randomness) that we exist. If that were the case, the lions and tigers would have the internet and “YouTube” in the jungles by now As an electrical engineer, I have studied about the powers of our God and through wisdom and understanding have learned over the years that our world is “too” perfect to have just come into being via “randomness”. But I’m not alone since atheists are the minority because of their “random” mind-set. It is comforting to know that only a higher being could have formed and inhabited this “perfect” world that we are fortunate to exist in.
You juxtapose atheism with religion, but this is completely inaccurate. Atheism is the belief in no higher power. Not the belief in no religion.
You’re trying hard to juxtapose atheism and religion, but this is a paradoxical position. It is a false dichotomy.
So you’re angry… great. But that doesn’t mean you have to forego logic.
Are you angry because god made you a bull dyke?
I would love to write a response to this whole blog but it is not my place. I will tell you that I feel you are getting angry at the wrong people for the wrong reasons. Religion is a safety net. God explains mystery for those that can’t reason the truth or allow the mystery of life to happen. I understand being mad at polititions because they can’t keep religion out of politics but, look at who they aim this at.
You say there is a Gallup poll that says 45% of the American population would vote for an atheist president, I say prove it. Only 64% even bothered to vote. And that was decried any way with the loser saying the vote was rigged. I am one of the losers and I say the voting has been rigged since the get go (Electoral College = rigged) so why piss and moan now. I don’t like what we got but I don’t like the voters either.
I am sorry that you can’t get married. I don’t understand why you want to though. You claim to be an athiest but you want to involve yourself in a religious (google marriage+origin) practice. Not necessarily Christian but religious. I don’t understand why the Same Sex Partners of the country don’t just simply enter into a legal partnership with their mate and invoke the benefits of that. Including; taxes (better than marriage), business discounts (not involved with marriage), reduced insurance cost (in some, not all cases). What the devil is the difference? That is all you are really talking about any way when you consider a marriage without religion. A legally recognized partnership right? You can have any kind of ceremony you want when you sign the document.
Why are you so angry at non athiests? You seem well reasoned yet, there is so much emotion and what seems like very little logic in this rant. There are facts that I cannot deny damning religions and those that push it but, there are also extenuating circumstances involved that you do not bother to mention. Why do people pray for instance? Why are Hell and damnation used to stifle those that ask questions? Why do religions teach sexuality the way they do, what circumstances surround the origins of these religions to cause such beliefs? Science begets doubt yet more advanced religions embrace science AND God, is there good reason for this and should this make you mad as well? You can’t explain how you know there is NO God, why should people explain how they know there IS a God?
Stop learning about other peoples religions if you don’t agree with them. Just let them be and fight for the causes that matter with a more dignified approach. Side step the morons (oops I mean believers) instead of trying to plow over them.
I am not saying lay down your anger or your passion. I am just saying to use it more intelligently. Make believers have to turn around and really look at your point of view only because you do it so well, not because they are forced to.
Wow, you seem to be a sad and angry person. I’ll be sure to pray for you.
I’m angry that i’m angry….i shouldn’t have to be, but there is no other option.
I’d bet money that if you were ever in conflict and peril danger you would run with your tail between your legs. Why is this? Because you’re a sheep. This life is all you have and your trying to make the best run at it you can. I, on the other hand know this is only a segment of my journey. It’s amazing that God still loves you even though you won’t acknowledge Him.
Greta –
Awesome post. But you’ve got bazillions of others up there who’ve said that.
I do not completely agree with you – in my opinion, anger is destructive, not constructive, and while SOME breaking down of prejudice and the like is certainly called for, there’s a point of diminishing returns where breaking society more is counterproductive.
As ugly and hateful and horrendous as society is today, it’s better than a generation ago, and that’s better than the generation before. It’s a slow, slow process, which does take anger – but it takes building more than breaking.
Sure, some well-represented behaviors today NEED breaking – but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I wish you the best of luck with your anger and your fire and your hope for the future. As others have said – your work here is beautiful.
Sincerely,
John B
I’d bet money that if you were ever in conflict and peril danger you would run with your tail between your legs. Why is this? Because you’re a sheep. This life is all you have and your trying to make the best run at it you can. I, on the other hand know this is only a segment of my journey. It’s amazing that God still loves you even though you won’t acknowledge Him.
You are quite correct. Angry is the new smart.
Thank you for writing that amazing rant of an article. You have embodied my thoughts on all of these issues. Hopefully some non-atheists will read this and (just perhaps) learn something constructive that breaks down the barrier of misunderstanding and arrogance. I wish you well.
You are quite correct. Angry is the new smart.
I’M MAD AS HELL AND I’M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!
John B: First of all, I know that she wouldn’t run if there was a conflict and second of all how is she a sheep?
You do indeed seem very angry. Please don’t confuse religious people with those that believe in some kind of god. I don’t go to church, and am not religious, but I do believe in some kind of higher power…which might be as simple as the laws of physics. Regardless, view your anger as passion. It seems a more appropiate term for the way you feel. I can’t relate on the marriage issue, but know that I’ll vote in a way that will accept such unions. I hope all is well,
C
sorry, I was speaking to 4g1vn, not john B
This is a gross generalization, in the same vein as the religious right’s condemnation of atheism. It’s funny how you ignore that an act of charity in the name of God is still an act of charity.
I was just thinking this on the way home…about how I feel angry. Not all the time, just whenever the words Christian, god, prayer and that lot crop into my life. And I started wondering shouldn’t I adopt a live and let live type of demeanor and now after reading your blog I know the answer: Fuck No. I’m a recovering alcoholic (18+yrs) and everyone assumes I must be a believer. Hey, the term is “a power greater than yourself” and that power is the combined sobriety and wisdom of everyone in that meeting room at that time. I know where my anger comes from is that for years everyone said well, you have god to thank for all that. No, I don’t. I have to thank every drunk that came before me. Thank you. I was wondering where all the righteous anger went in this country. Thanks for sharing. Permission to share on my myspace blog? Thanks.
A stupendous soliloquy full of strength and feeling. Perhaps there can, one day, be respect for atheists in the good ole USA (maybe even the whole world). I doubt that I or any future children of mine will live to see the day of true civility and reason.
To TheWiseMan. I, in my job as a web designer have studied about the laws of the world, and through critical thinking and scientific process, have concluded that the world is “too perfect” NOT to have come about by randomness. What do you make of this obvious discrepancy?
I suffered through a terrible marriage for 2 years where my husband was verbally and physically abusive, cheated on me, and abandoned me altogether when I lost my job. I was outraged when my militantly Christian uncle implied our marital problems were my fault because I hadn’t accepted Jesus into my life, and that I needed to pray that my husband would take me back.
Rock on! Valid points all! Couldn’t have typed it better myself..especially with my typing skills…(Dyslexics of the world untie!)
The civil rights movement was strongly made possibl by religious groups. Christian, Muslim and Jewish alike. The Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. was, as his name suggests, a minister of the Christian Church
Whoever said that the smarter a person is the less likely they are to belive in God is an absolute dumbass. Sorry to use such callus terms.
Every hear of Einstien? Believed in God.
I have a problem with atheists when they say “believers” are stupid or if they are young and forced to go to church they listen to there iPods during mass.
I will listen to and atheist till he looses his voice but they will not listen to what I believe?
I used to be an atheist, but now I am a Catholic. I was never an angry atheist. God just did not matter. I could not care less if other people beleived in God or not. I knew that some atheists were angry, but I could not make any sense of it. Then it hit me. They are not atheists. They are anti-theists. (I have told some atheists that they were really anti-theists, and they have gotten so pissed at me. But I trully an not writing this to make anyone mad.) There is a difference. For example, today, I do not believe in astrology. But if someone asks me my sign, I tell them what it is. I will politely listen to them. I do not write angry letter to newspapers that carry astrology columns. I don’t care if people believe in astrology or not. I never get angry. But if I did get angry at anyone who asked me for my sign, or protested newspapers that carried astrology columns, then I would be anti-astrology.
Anyway, I read Mahatma Gandhi, and I was so impressed with him that I read the Bible from cover to cover and I eventually became a practicing Catholic. Gandhi converted me to Catholicism.
The civil rights movement was strongly made possibl by religious groups. Christian, Muslim and Jewish alike. The Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. was, as his name suggests, a minister of the Christian Church
I am tired of people bitching about what they don’t get.. Be happy for that 55% that _would_ vote. Be happy for what you _do_ get.. People vote on what they believe, if their christian they’re not going to vote for someone who believes in god, just like you wouldn’t vote for a christian who is actively against atheism. We are a country of mixed cultures, religions, and races.. We aren’t always going to get along, but dammit we have that right. I am not atheist, christian, muslim, or associated with any form of religion ( or lack there of ). I just try my best to exist in a world where people just aren’t happy with what they have, and have to complain and make damn sure others know their pain.
I know it’s not a perfect world, I don’t expect it to be. I do however find a way to make myself happy, Try it some time.
Bravo. I am a long standing militant athiest who has no problem telling religious types to go fuck themselves.
I get angry about astrology when people that make laws believe in it.
I think you’re confusing anger with passion. All of those “angry” movements you mentioned, they were designed to incite anger and aggression in their oppressors, not the other way around.
When you spout off out of anger, it doesn’t help your cause. It only appeases those that are already on your side. I don’t know about you, but when someone says “I have a dream”, that has more power to persuade me than “blow me”. When I see meek, peaceable folks getting beaten by their oppressors, THAT makes me think.
I didn’t become an atheist because a bunch of angry people showed me the error of my ways. I became an atheist because it was the reasonable and sane thing to do. Sure, you can debate issues and get angry all that you want, but you will never make any progress that way.
Yes, your anger is valid and justifiable, I won’t debate that. But advocating anger and violence to get people to understand your side of things makes you no better than your oppressors.
James,
I am pretty sure when a atheist took out his 5″ knife and tried to carve “Believer” onto my skull.
Its our own responsibility to find our own believes.
Wow. What a good mix of “logical process” and “angry rant”. I’m not sure I agree with the furthest edges of it, but go you for expressing it so well. You kept me reading.
Self-proclaimed atheist moral-philosopher here.
I bow to you. Excellent post; that felt GOOD to read.
Oh Bitch, Bitch, Bitch.
Just shut up and live your life without having to stir shit up just to feel important about being Atheist. After all, it’s what’s “in” now.
You aren’t being persecuted, you are just one of many intolerant butthurt bloggers yearning for attention.
I love you
I’d like to start off by saying that I am neither Christian,
nor am I really athiest. I dont like religion and agree with a hundred percent of your reasons, but you are just as bad as them. I could write a similar post for athiests based on your post only. Accept that they are there and ignore them. Trying to convert them won’t work like it won’t work to convert you. Also any intelegent religious person will tell you most of the bible is made up and that it is just a tool to help describe their belief of the universe and to help their people in times of hardship. Also just like not every ahiest has the same beliefs neither do religious people. Dont judge then hope to not be judged. So look at each of these and e-mail me if you want my list. Dont flame me too bad I’m only 16.
There’s a lot of faiths (non-faiths, even?) out there.
If we could preach tolerance instead of anger, regardless of right, we wouldn’t NEED this kind of arguing.
LoL silly athiests
Wow, Atheists these days are almost more annoying than the extremely religious.
Great post. I agree with every bit of it. Anger is the seed of revolution, and a revolution is what we need in this country–an atheist revolution.
F’n A! this is exactly what i’ve been needing to hear articulated for quite awhile. Passionate anger is what is needed so badly in the atheist community and in the general population right now. So many people have become complacent cows while our leaders steal our humanity one small piece at a time.
tits or gtfo
I’m Christian. I read all this stuff. I don’t really disagree with any of it. People can be pretty terrible and lousy. I am a science major studying psychology, and have been agnostic for years of my life.
There is strong evidence supporting evolution. It appears that religion has been a part of human nature from our earliest records. And I do not understand everything about the book.
The book of Ecclesiastes is worth a read. I think if more Christians understood this book as well as the teachings of Jesus, many of the alleged complaints might never have occurred. One of the strongest underlying messages of Jesus is love.
I find comfort and peace in my faith. The Bible is one of the wisest books available to mankind. But I don’t think it is always meant to be taken literally. I don’t think it is good to be so angry. It is much easier to forgive, forget, and accept that people are far from perfect.
I’m done. Peace.
Catholic faith is full of shit. And it wasn’t the religion that ruined all that it was humans.
God created science and this physical world. How can you say something doesn’t exist if you haven’t traveled to an alternate universe or dimension where God possibly exists.
Humans always fuck up everything.And the biggest rule people didn’t to in their religion throughout history was following the law that said though shalt not kill.
You keep all of your impotent rage for as long as you like. Doesn’t alter the fact that you haven’t done shit about all the things you’re complaining about.
Want to change the world?
Get of your fat dyke ass and do it!
Wow… Athiests are angry…
someone needs help
Angry that I have to mark my del.icio.us tag to this blog “do not share” because some of my coworkers know my user id.
Amen! If you’ll pardon the pun.
Where to start:
First off, America is based on religion. We were founded because of religious freedom, and it is a more or less religious nation. Tough break, but those are the facts.
Personally, I think that you fail to look at the broad picture. Yes, the Christians you bring up in the article are complete douches, but Christians as a whole are not nearly as hideously ‘fire and brimstone’ and shit.
And most of the stuff you bring up in your article happened years in the past. Boo-ho, Galileo had some hard times at the hands of some religious nut-jobs. Does it effect you personally? Did the fact that athiests couldn’t act as part of a jury in the 60’s affect you personally? Just let go.
How many places in America is is currently illegal for someone to have an abortion? Umm, perhaps zero? Last time I went to church, my preacher was teaching us to reach out to the poor, not beet or wives.
Prayer lists: That’s just human nature. They know that it doesn’t help to pray to win the horse race, but it just makes people feel better.
Priests (and Rabbi’s I suppose) usually make house calls to comfort people in times of hardship. IDK what kind of shitty church you went too or whatever, but its pretty uncommon for any religious leader to blame people’s illnesses on their lack of prayer.
Frankly, who cares that some douche bag nun told some drawer guy he can’t draw in heaven? Anyone with common sense would play it off as silly, when you insist on using it as a rediculous reason to hate the church. Did he laugh it off probably. It certainly didn’t prevent him from drawing.
And why are you angry at Mother Teresa? Because she chose to take on her burden. If I decide to strap a boulder to my back and climb everest, that’s my perogative. Ading it to reasons you’re mad at religion just seems silly.
Show my a quote wwhere a molester priest told the kids that it ‘was the will of god’. I’m not defending them, and they will likely burn in hell for it, but few and far between. YOu argue it like it happens at every church every where.
9/11 I can understand, but you’re venting at the wrong people. At least make a point that you are switching gears here. You harp on Christianity, then you hint at Islam.
Jerry is a douche. But again, you demonize some people, then claim that as a representation of all religious people. You’ll have your
finatics always, but most religious people don’t proclaim gays and jews as the scourge of america. Most religious people go to church most of the time, and jst try to live a morally good life. Most tread the middle ground.
The constitution says that equality is guaranteed or all. And I agree that this should be the case about gay marriage. But as long as the majority believes that it shouldn’t be allowed (the idea of majority vote/rule is another big part of democracy) it’s not gonna happen.
Yeah, we need to find a nice middle ground in the blame department. Religion has done some major good things in the past, but there are some black spots that need to be brought to light. Same with atheism. Both parties need to stop being so close minded.
The same could be said about people who put the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish. In the end though, it’s just another symbol that shows you’re colors, as it were.
Some tvangalizers are douche bags, but thats just a few in a crowd of multi-millions. And anyways, anyone who can’t see that the whole “atheism=lawless” is silly is too far gone to even be worth talking to by an atheist like your self.
Meh, i don’t personally like it when people try to make arguments against religions, bring up facts about a few people from the throngs, without having talked to many of them… oh wait…
People will believe what they want to believe. While science is the best idea for what is going on in the physical realm, it isn’t always exact and clear. We believe that gravity is the measure of the earths pull on us towards itself, but scientists today are still checking and rechecking it and many other theories. Not to sayy I lead my life like god is going to come back to earth tomorrow, but you get the idea.
Meh, some believe thet we are a mere pinprick on the galaxy, and only the most close minded will believe that were are the sole focus of the universe. Try not to generalize.
Your article is too long, and I’m getting tired, but you get the idea.
I officially invite you to join Atheist, Agnostic and Non-Religous (AANR), a Facebook group with more than 11,000 members. http://kirkwood.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204609276
I would like to comment about two things
first) the idea of these “atheist” gatherings, or speaking for “atheists” as a whole or even partially seems a bit…bad… i mean, i thought the general idea was that atheists just dont believe in god, not that they congregated for a purpose. Any gathering of atheists would, in my mind, be called a gathering of friends and have nothing to do with “atheism.” Thus, speaking for “atheists” has just about the weight of me speaking for “everyone.” There is no binding philosophy or doctrine that I am aware of, no theology, just merely “god does not exist.”
secondly, in some sections, your wording could lead someone to believe that you are angry because other people dont believe accordingly – ie, your commentary on creationism/evolution – i mean, just because x percent doesnt believe the same thing as you isnt exactly a justifiable reason to be angry, especially when its a question of *belief*
thats all
btw, the closest thing to what i am is agnostic
Oh, and I do believe it’s worth mentioning that this post, and the comments made on it, are quite generally full of blanket statements, generalized beliefs, and a random assortment of fallacies like, i dunno, taking a part and attributing its behavior to the whole.
This has to be one of the worst blogs rants I have ever read. It’s apparent that not only did religion negatively impact your school’s science curriculum, but it also severely diminished the language arts curriculum as well.
Sounds like your angry when people commit injustice in the name of “rightousness”. Your not alone. I would do a little more homework on some of your claims before your post them as truth next time.
I hope that one day your life will be full of joy and peace instead of anger.
-Mike
This has got to be the hot topic of the century, no doubt to stir up emotions.
Way to delete my arguments…
Why do you single out Christianity and not attack the other dangerous contributions of religion on the world?
Fundamentalist Islam is just as dangerous as fundamentalist Christianity. It’s the reason for 9/11 as well as terrorist attacks in Israel.
Great post but don’t forget about the other dangerous religions.
Dumbest shit that I ever read! Please consider some community service and serve others around you instead of wasting time on the dumbest piece of shit on the planet.
Yikes
Brad wrote: “My challenge to every atheist I meet, is to ask them to read the bible and pray to the God (even if they don’t think he exists). Do this for a few minutes for 3-7 days.”
I tried that, but for more like 18 years.
Brad, accept my challenge, and try living like an atheist for a week. No praying, no proselytizing, no bible reading. If it doesn’t work, you can go back to being a Christian at the end of the week.
Once a friend and I were talking about having doubts about God and Jesus Christ. We both said that we did not know what else we would be, but be Christians. This was not motivated from feeling trapped or unknowlegeable, but more of a feeling of “I can’t stop believing.” Like as if I had seen and learned what the color red was and now that is just a part of who I am; I can’t take it back, i can’t unlearn somethings. Christianity to me is completely illogical and foolish, so why am I a Christian then?… I don’t have an answer to my own question. I just wanted to share a snippit of some thoughts in the past.
So sad. All this anger…
I’m more of the opinion that the real impetus behind great social changes is love, change of heart, not anger, change of mind.
I was raised by atheists. I do not believe in God. or gods. But I do not want to join your club. Too much anger. I don’t think it’s healthy, but, hey, it’s your lives.
I’m on the same side of these debates as you, on pretty well every point you brought up, but I’m a believer. How does that work!?
I sincerely hope that you would hear what a 17 year old Liberal Christian has to say. It might be enlightaning!
I’m sorry you fell that way about faith and religion. Although I’m sure you’re not, lol. I’m a Christian but I believe many of the same things you do, that religious people can be intolerant and closed minded. I also call myself a liberal or a progressive, whichever you prefer.
I am for womens rights in abortion, in favor of gay marriage, think that evolution not creationism should be taught, in the separation of church and state. In my opinion religion has been both the greatest force for evil the world has ever known and the greatest source of good that I beleive has the potential to save us all. I also readily agree with you in that we are not the only sentient beings in the universe and that we will probably never fully understand the universe or God or what he has in store for any of us. I also beleive in stem cell research and abhore the Catholic church, most of its clergy, and its blood stained history. I want to tell you that not all believers,as you call us, are so bad and that I acknowledge your anger and agree that you have an extremely valid reason for that anger. However I would wish for you that you would not let it consume you or blind you to the possibility that there is a God. I also believe that anger is a neccesary force for change but I beleive that hope, kindness, love, and faith is all that we truly have. And faith not only in God but in ourselves and each other. I’m sorry you have become so disheartened with the world and its faithful, I hope that you could look past others hypocrisy and other peoples views and come up with your own as I have done. I am not saying that I have it all figured out either, but I beleive that there is still much to learn from this life. I hope you can see that there is a God who loves us all no matter what and that there are so many things in the world that are inexplicable(despite being a firm beleiver in science and that science is God’s hand and work)that are so profoundly wonderful that there is nothing behind it but true love that is not just God but is universal. There are som many things you are so right about, I think that people like you can be a major force for good in the world and can change it for the better! You could do that by trying to go to a United Methodist Church, of which I am a member. Our slogan is open hearts, open minds, open doors. I would gladly invite you to come to a UMC any day!
Hi Greta, my first time reading a blog. Also happened to have just read Christopher Hitchen – “God is Not Great”. Your expression of anger is your choice. After having read Christopher Hitchen and Richard Dawkins I find your expression of anger don’t quite fit the rational being.
Anger just provoke the other party to also display their anger. Whether a person is religious or non-religious, there is always a rational person behind him(her). Some may care to admit some may choose to hide but its there. It is through continuous education and guidance that eventually we can get people to be more rational. Believing in religion per se is not a problem. Its is hiding behind religion and doing bad things that is a problem. We have to get the religious and the non-religious to get together and weed out these bad people. Again everybody is entitle to their Believes. As long as we respect each other Believes, over time the world will be a better place.
Hi, I’m Carla, I’m a devout Catholic, and while I firmly believe in my religion – I couldn’t care less that you are atheist. You are a person, you exist, you feel pain and joy just like me, and that’s all that matters to me. Just thought you’d like to know somebody – plenty of people actually – don’t hate you.
I’d say it’s why anger won’t change the world for the better, but here’s a more…
I get angry when people call themselves atheists rather than the more scientifically accurate “agnostics”.
I get angry with “atheists” who believe that denying the existence of a god is not a faith-based belief.
I get angry with “atheists” who believe “atheism” is not a religion.
I get angry with “atheists'” intolerance of other religions.
I get angry with “atheists” who believe we’d be more advanced than we are now if other religions had never existed…if you can even imagine that.
…
So…Angry!
Actually, I think your post wasn’t obscene enough. Absolutely boring. At least make me laugh if you’re going to waste my time with something this long.
I agree with most of the comments that demonstrate a hesitation to praise you. Nevertheless,
I fucking hate every single person who posted here, and if there were some magical button that I could press which could annihilate your collective existance in an instant, I would push it 1728 times.
While going through your blog Greta, I found many well meaning religious person giving advice and extending invitation to their church. Very good. I believe most if not all of the people who are going through this blog must have been brought up in a religious environment. So most of us would have read some form of religious text pertaining to their religion. This statement here is for the well meaning Religious Person trying to give their advice here:… Please give themself a chance to read up Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins books on their discussion on religion before giving advice. You can’t be a marriage counselor if you are not married, right?
Greta, I’m sorry your experience with Christians has been nothing but bad(or at least that’s what it seems like you are implying). I’m a Christian and don’t look down on atheists. I don’t look down on anybody except most other Christians. The churches nowadays are so filled with people looking for an emotional high that it seems almost impossible to meet someone who generally knows what and why they believe it. I’m not someone who thinks anger has all the power in the world, or thinks that unchannelled, uncontrolled anger does anything except destroy. Focused correctly, as you stated above(i.e. social reformation), anger is quite the force to be reckoned with.
Also, to further break any stereotypes, I’m not a neo conservative Republican that thinks Bush is the greatest President ever. In fact, I wish he would just disappear.
I actually enjoyed reading your post, and found it a great source for places I will hopefully be able to improve myself.
Thank you!
I am speaking as an agnostic, and not in fact an atheist. This article is really moving, even from the undecided standpoint in which I stand. As an agnostic I am not here to say okay, this article is correct, I will be an atheist not, or vice versa, but I love the points made in this article, especially the ones about discrimination against people of different sexual, racial, etc, orientations by the more conservative faiths. Creationists claim that everyone was made by G-d, or whoever, and God, or whoever, is perfect, well then how does it make sense for queers or black people to be “wrong” if our “perfect” G-d made them? It’s just totally nonsensical. I guess what I am trying to say is that I really love this article and I think it makes some incredible points and I hope it gets read by many people and changes how they feel about atheism and intolerance in general. If he does turn out to be real, G-d bless you for your strong assertions of your belief.
I just want to say, I think your rant is amazing.
I may not be an atheist… I see myself as agnostic, but all of that makes me angry as well.
You’re right, anger is a valuable tool. We can’t let it consume us, but we shouldn’t just let shit go on like this.
Thank you! And keep on being angry about this bullshit, while being happy about what you can. 🙂
I would be angry, too, if I were you. But, that has nothing to do with God.
You don’t happen to be a Democrat, also? That would be a WILD coincidence.
i’m angry that i have to share air with an idiot like you. I’m angry that thousands of people like you simply bitch, continuously in such sanctimonious tones about what other people are doing wrong, have done wrong and will continue to do wrong rather than doing anything about it. You’re a fucking hypocrite. Yes, I have no idea how many, but a shit ton of Christians don’t act the way they’re supposed to. Yet you cry foul when I lump your sorry ass with the rest of the (majority) atheists. There is a difference between what some people do and what people are supposed to do. Recognize this or look like a dick at your peril. I think it’s stupid that people like you attempt to, however subtly, convince people that if you don’t believe in evolution, if you don’t believe in the absence of some higher power, that you’re somehow less intelligent than they are. That’s bullshit, own up to your own faults before you lambast someone else. Damn, you know what, this isn’t even worth it. Who gives a shit how stupid you are, if you want to be a hypocrite, go for it. But at least realize how poorly you’re presenting yourself. From one Asshole to another: Fuck You
i’m angry that i have to share air with an idiot like you. I’m angry that thousands of people like you simply bitch, continuously in such sanctimonious tones about what other people are doing wrong, have done wrong and will continue to do wrong rather than doing anything about it. You’re a fucking hypocrite. Yes, I have no idea how many, but a shit ton of Christians don’t act the way they’re supposed to. Yet you cry foul when I lump your sorry ass with the rest of the (majority) atheists. There is a difference between what some people do and what people are supposed to do. Recognize this or look like a dick at your peril. I think it’s stupid that people like you attempt to, however subtly, convince people that if you don’t believe in evolution, if you don’t believe in the absence of some higher power, that you’re somehow less intelligent than they are. That’s bullshit, own up to your own faults before you lambast someone else. Damn, you know what, this isn’t even worth it. Who gives a shit how stupid you are, if you want to be a hypocrite, go for it. But at least realize how poorly you’re presenting yourself. From one Asshole to another: Fuck You
You’ve just become one of my most admired Internet atheists.
Spectacular post!
cheers
This is a bold statement.
Anyone who claims to be an atheist, does not know what one is.
Every self proclaimed atheist is just an outraged person at the absurdity of organized religion & the dominance it has over everyones life. It’s likely Greta you are an agnostic. If you want see an atheist, look down the mentally defunct wing of a local hospital or your favorite group of people, evangelicals. These people without question do not listen to anything outside their sphere of understanding, much like the idea of an atheist to refuse the idea of (insert anything that can’t be proved by 5 senses). Zealots , Atheists … is there a difference ?
I know it’s empowering to to say you’re an atheist (a political ideal I put on par with any government & organized religion), but word atheist is a direct assault on everyone who does have “faith” or is unsure. It’s no different than walking up to a little kid & telling them there is no Santa Clause & snatching the present from their hands.
Next time someone asks your position, tell the cold hard facts, your agnostic & you need some “god damned” proof before making any statement or decisions about anything.
Am I lying ? Did any atheist wake up on day one & think “I know there is no god, 100% sure, I got proof!”. Or did you just go “what the fuck !?” like any rational person would in the face of the world & it’s people ?
I’m angry at immoral leaders, religions & so on. But don’t hide behind the shock word atheist to throw stones at the other side you are rightly to be angry with.
No one fears an agnostic … because at some point everyone had to ask a question & became one. If you refuse ideas other people, than you are no different that the people you claim are refusing to understand you.
I am truly impressed at the time and thought you put into this article!
I get angry creationists say “if we evolved from monkeys than whats going to happen to the moneys in zoos?” show me a talking snake and we’ll talk…
you’re ridiculous.
Wow.
I do so enjoy your posts.
I recently posted (and comic’ed) on the subject of anger.
http://ecstathy.blogspot.com/2007/10/are-atheists-angry.html
A somewhat different take, though – in the post I argue the anger atheists are often accuded of having is often misperception.
You rightly point out that atheists have much to be angry about.
Angry? You betcha!
Especially when a Christian assumes that I have no moral boundaries because I am an unbeliever. All the other points you raise are awesome and piss me off too but being prejudged as an immoral risk to society is the one thing that really gets to me.
That said, I shouldn’t complain. I live in Australia and the fundamentalists haven’t got the hold on here that they have in the US.
You are a breath of fresh air. Keep it up.
Great Post. Keep it up.
Right on! A little anger is what gets people off their ass!
“I’m angry that according to a recent Gallup poll, only 45 percent of Americans would vote for an atheist for President.”
waa waa waaa…… who the fuck cares. because of the results for one poll, you have to bitch and complain. get a fucking life. so what if you realize that most likely you would never run this country. get over it.
“I’m angry that atheist conventions have to have extra security, including hand-held metal detectors and bag searches, because of fatwas and death threats.”
well, stupid, dont you think it might be because atheists have less value for life. maybe you should go to Death Row and talk to some of the serial killers that are there. Most likely none of them believe in God. not saying that people of faith arent bad, but when you take a teenager who gets picked on by bullies and he doesnt believe in God, then naturally he wont care about what happens to him after death, because in his opinion, absolutely NOTHING happens to him after death. NO HELL!!!
“I’m angry that the 41st President of the United States, George Herbert Walker Bush, said of atheists, in my lifetime”
your still pissed about what ONE person said 20 some odd fucking years ago? damn!! talk about holding a grudge. this means that you seriousely need some help, if you are angry at what just ONE person said.
“I’m angry that it took until 1961 for atheists to be guaranteed the right to serve on juries, testify in court, or hold public office in every state in the country.”
OK, so this country is a work-in-progress. Women did not get to vote in this country until 1918. MOVE ON!!!! at least it was passed. at least you can serve on juries now. if you still could not serve, then i would sympathize with you, but you can, so shut up.
“I’m angry that almost half of Americans believe in creationism.”
Yes I believe in God…. these are my personal believes, and frankly, i dont give a fuck if your pissed about that. its none of your fucking business what i believe in, so wh are you even concerned about my beliefs? this means you deffinately need a fucking life if your pissed because i believe in something that you dont even understand. to you, life ends after death. in your opinion, there is no reason to be living, since absolutely nothing happens when you die, so whats the point?!?!
“because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.”
I really dont think that abortion was illegal because of religious views. from what i found on the internet, abortion should be illegal mainly because its MURDER.
“I’m angry at preachers who tell women in their flock to submit to their husbands because it’s the will of God, even when their husbands are beating them within an inch of their lives.”
Lady, there is a big difference between Christianity and FLDS.
“I’m angry that Mother Teresa took her personal suffering and despair at her lost faith in God,and turned it into an obsession that led her to treat suffering as a beautiful gift from Christ to humanity, a beautiful offering from humanity to God, and a necessary part of spiritual salvation. ”
Ok let me get this straight. your mad at Mother Theresa because she did good for people? she was no atheist. she had problems with her faith, since she herself said she never heard God answering, so in return, she did greater deed in hopes of hearing a response. who knows… she may said all that deliberately. It could have been her way of dealing with all the fame she received. Afterall, she was a very humble human being. It COULD be argued that she was never able to adapt to all the fame she received when she was alive.
“I’m angry at the believers who put decals on their cars with a Faith fish eating a Darwin fish… and who think that’s clever, who think that religious faith really should triumph over science and evidence.”
Science is a well established THEORY. there may be some fact, but then again, there is also fiction. After all, the first thing i learned in College Science was that Science, is indeed just that, theory. Nothing more!!!!
this is my first time reading your blog, a friend of mine directed me to this page. while i agree with every point of contention you have listed, i feel your anger is somewhat misdirected, at least that is what my reading of this article suggests. i am not a religious person, nor am i an atheist. i simply don’t know what the true nature of the universe is. in fact, i believe that no one on earth can possibly know this. so, really, i don’t spend much time thinking about it. however my beliefs are not relevant to this discussion. while i appreciate your points, i would like to point out that it is not the mere existence of religion that causes so much pain in the world, it is rather the ignorance and willingness of people to do harmful things, and allow others to do harmful things so long as they are like-minded. organized religion is, to a large degree, a competition for power and resources. foolish people are unfortunately manipulated easily, and it is the fault of the manipulators who misuse religious texts in order to achieve their own sick purposes. the existence of the bible and people’s belief in god did not directly cause the crusades, it was instead religious leaders who claimed that the conquest of muslim lands was righteous and holy who convinced their followers as such. it is unfortunate that people can be so stupid as to believe that a priest, or an organization, can know god’s will, or allah’s, or whom- or whatever’s, or know whether or not any such being exists. but it is their ignorance and aggression, and not their beliefs, that give religion its destructive power. if you have a screwdriver, you can do many things with it. you can put a comfortable bed together with it, or you can stab someone repeatedly in the eye with it. it all depends on what you choose to do with the tools you are given. as far as the people who ask, “are you catholic or baptist?” well they’re just silly and they should just ask if a person is affiliated with any religion. or they shouldn’t ask at all. but that’s their own silliness. so, in summary, i agree with you, but i think you’re more angry with stupid and mean people than you are with a few dusty old books.
oh and by the way i sincerely hope you two can get married someday. they’ll have to allow it eventually. again, people are just silly and stuck in their ways. fuck ’em.
AMEN! 😉
It is really uncomfortable hearing you moan and groan when most of your stuff on the Bible and creationism is false/misunderstood…
Maybe research these things better? Honestly seek the truth?
Oh wait, you probably do not believe in absolute truth.
Carry on.
@ Shannon Brown
I do have a problem with people believing whatever they want to believe, even if they aren’t trying to convert me.
My major problem with religion is it always has to come first in peoples lives, before ethics, before morality, before family and friends even. if religious beliefs are needed at all they belong at the bottom of the stack and must be subject to ethics, morality etc.
And because of this fact, (and getting back to my original point) people may BELIEVE that their god wants them to burn my house down. they wouldn’t be trying to convert me but i still would not happy about it. People BELIEVE that the author of this article should not be allowed to marry her lover (i can tell she’s not too happy about that). Holding irrational, unjust and immoral beliefs DOES effect everyone else, even if they dont try to force those beliefs on the people around them.
Well what can I say…. What a great effort. I think you’ve pretty well covered all of it. For the frustration (and yes anger) I feel when I am cornered by prosletysing christians and find in the heat of the moment that I can’t quite explain why I am an atheist and why their religiosity is so irrational – I will now be able to refer to you blog! Well done – keep up the great work! and good luck with everything.
As a non-Christian and a non-atheist, bravo. *applauds*
I’m angry that you can wear a colonial uniform and put pictures of a vagina on a page that talks about atheism.
I’m sorry a nun beat you when you were five. Get over it.
People are as likely to abandon their religious beliefs as you are to abandon your sexuality. The best you can hope for is to convince religious people to be more libertarian and not let their religion affect their politics.
This country was founded on liberty and freedom, so was this society. You are wrong to get angry about religion over things that do not restrict your freedom.
You want a social movement that will assert your freedom over theirs.
How about a political movement that fights for the government to exist above the influence of any group. That is a movement that everyone, regardless of the social group that they belong to, can get behind.
Well said.
Sad.
I want this to be a huge searchable pdf file complete with pictures in the original post and whatnot.
I have a challenge to Brad.
I want you to read every story on faeries that you can find. I want you to truly try to believe in them. Honestly. If you aren’t honest and truly apply yourself, it won’t work.
Then ask yourself if you aren’t happier about yourself and life. I’m sure you will find that you are. After all, there were generations and generations of people who believed and were happier than you are. If you don’t believe, you could not really be happy.
When you have truly made a sincere effort, let us know if you still think you aren’t a jerk.
omg that post rocked 🙂
Bravo! The most rational and impassioned – and DEAD ON – post I’ve read in months! I’ll be coming back to read this again and again.
interesting fact: when Iggy Pop was asked about how he stays angry..he says..’I work at it’. You do the same. Great job!!
soo i ended up making a nice searchable pdf out of your amazingly detailed post…if you wanna link to my hosted pdf file feel free.
http://www.rpwiles.net/AtheistAnger.pdf
Brilliant! Thank you!
Another Christian chiming in here. Brad was right about one thing: if Christians acted like Christians, you wouldn’t be angry. But those who do are badly outnumbered by those who don’t. As it stands, though, you’ve been given plenty of reason to be angry. The funny thing is, if Biblical prophecies (and yes, my interpretation of them) are correct, then you guys are going to win this battle before the end. There will be little, if any, tolerance of Christianity (or probably any other religion) left in the world. Ironic that the Bible itself calls it.
I’m sorry to hear that you are so angry Greta. I figure that life is short enough without having it be dominated by anger and the negativity of this world.
I am a born-again Christian (some of you folks might refer to folks like myself as “fundamentalist Christians”) and believe that I have been blessed by God to live in America, the wondrous land of opportunity. I would consider myself a man who is blessed by God with wonderful family and friends.
I hope that anger at other people will not consume you… and that you find some joy in living. There is much bad in this world… but there is much good. Anyways, just my two cents, good day.
Later everyone will come to realize that we all must push towards the center. It will be in the best interests for everyone. There is a big wave forming and it’s going straight up the middle. The extremists will all fall in behind. We are nearing the end of our tribulation period. The Truth will all be told. Just watch and see…
Strangely, I had a conversation with my mom this evening about my atheism. I explained to her many things along the same lines as you explained above, only not as in-depth. That said, I’d like to thank you for vocalizing (typing) more of what I meant to say, but couldn’t think of.
Also, am I in the wrong because I can’t put my finger on anything that religion has done positively for humanity? I suppose that giving people some reason to believe in Heaven after life is decent, at best, but shouldn’t we as humans be worried about enjoying our time while ALIVE instead of enjoying our time after we die? I have no problem with knowing that I’ll rot in the ground after I pass, and I feel that more people would be better off if they came to this realization instead of worrying about how much they’ve pleased whoever their god is during their life time.
I’m an atheist, yet I still know right from wrong. To say that I can’t know such is ridiculous.
Strangely, I had a conversation with my mom this evening about my atheism. I explained to her many things along the same lines as you explained above, only not as in-depth. That said, I’d like to thank you for vocalizing (typing) more of what I meant to say, but couldn’t think of.
Also, am I in the wrong because I can’t put my finger on anything that religion has done positively for humanity? I suppose that giving people some reason to believe in Heaven after life is decent, at best, but shouldn’t we as humans be worried about enjoying our time while ALIVE instead of enjoying our time after we die? I have no problem with knowing that I’ll rot in the ground after I pass, and I feel that more people would be better off if they came to this realization instead of worrying about how much they’ve pleased whoever their god is during their life time.
I’m an atheist, yet I still know right from wrong. To say that I can’t know such is ridiculous.
I’ve been an atheist for a while, stopping at few things here and there (hedonism, taoism… the likes of those)and I must say that this post of yours has made me… open my eyes again.
I never really took the time to think about it, but almost all of your points made me realize just how pissed I am about them. Especially the Catholic ordeals. And I really hope that your post spreads, and reaches the tops. They (religious figure heads) probably won’t grasp it, or at least not understand the why’s, but they need to start giving us air.
I’m probably not making much sense, but I guess in the end, I really don’t need to. You’ve reminded me that I’m angry about a lot of things, and I’m sick of staying quiet about it. I’m tired of being ignored, and treated as though I’m a waste of oxygen; I’m tired of being quieted down. I tired of being told I’m wrong, for taking the time to question my life instead of throw to some omnipotent being that wants some random girl to win the lottery today.
We will stand up to this, and are in the process now. Even if I’m too tired to continue this, I agree with you completely.
Keep it up. You never know, it just might work.
Don’t apologise for getting a bit cross! We all have to endure the ‘insult’ that is organised religion on a daily basis, so I am sure we can take a little passionate argument from you on top of that! Personally I feel the time for tolerating these idiots is over, at least when they try to force their superstitious nonsense on the rest of us. Go get ’em!
After reading this and a good portion of the posts in response, I have a few things to say. This seems to be more about atheists being angry at Christianity, or certain sects or aspects of Christianity. But as I went through your list, it seems you have pulled negative after negative circumstance and story. For any organization, religion, group of people… you can focus on the negative and promote that to justify your anger and or prejudice. In fact, if the negative was really all there was, then you could criticize and find a reason to be angry at many many groups of people or organizations, religious or not. If youâre willing to pull up all the bad examples and point the finger at religion or theistic belief as the source of the world’s woes and your anger, you should also take a look at the good things people do because of their belief in a god or religious system. Spend some time, just to get a better understanding of the other side, and maybe you could come away with a broader perspective and respect. The world is full of complainers who point the finger at whoever is a good scapegoat at the time. And really what I see is that people are too busy pointing the finger and being angry to go out and make a difference for the better in their sphere of influence. Does all your complaining and anger make you a better person; does it make your friends or neighbors better people? Personally I am tired of all the complaining that I encounter in my daily environment, it just never seems to stop, and if Iâm not careful I may start complaining about the complainers. In fact I found myself complaining and carrying a prejudice tone against Hispanics (I live in southern California) and I realized that really it was just prejudice against a group of people because there were a few bad examples and stereotypes. I have since tried to shift out of that blame perspective and respect these people whether they are here legally or not, because the truth is… I live with and around them. There is a difference between not agreeing with someoneâs beliefs and just plain prejudice and disrespect. Both sides of the fence in regards to atheists/theists are guilty of this. With all the complaining and blame that goes around it really isnât making this world a better place to live in. If it wasnât the Christians, it might be the Jews, or the Muslims, the capitalists, the republicans, the democrats, the Americans, the men, the women, black, white, and the list goes on and on and on. Iâm saying this to bring up a point that it we as people need to stop agreeing with that prejudice side of humanity in order to make this world a better place. The world will never be full of people that share one single belief and philosophy about life and its meaning. I hope that the people who read your postings and this reply will truly consider whether or not they want play the blame game. Iâve decided to stop, and already my life is better because Iâm not carrying around this chip on my shoulder. Iâll leave with one final thought or thoughts… last year I went on a homeless outreach through an organization called The Dream Center. We passed out food and a few other items… that was all. As it turns out this was a Christian organization. Now I have not returned since, and the reason is it was simply to painful to see people on the streets stuck in their circumstances. I canât stomach that right now, but these people who are a part of the Dream Center can, day after day, and they are making a difference. Anyone who wants to complain about Christianity or religion should go do some homeless outreach and care for disadvantaged, broken, homeless people… there are probably plenty of organizations in any given city that you can do that with. When you put down religion or Christianity because of some bad examples, you also put down these people, who from what I see, have decided to make a difference instead of spend their time being angry and complaining. Hatâs off to these people. http://www.dreamcenter.org
You’re angry because you’re a lesbian and in serious need of a fuck.
I am angry that you are choosing to reject Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and instead prefer to burn in hell.
You should be angry that the Western world and much of the rest of it has developed based on a book that is mainly fiction, badly translated and is edited to promote a certain viewpoint. Those that believe in this book mistakenly think it is the definitive word of their ‘god’.
It like a new Dark age is approaching.
A comment buried at the bottom of this post is unlikely to ever be read but ….
To tell you the truth, I find your litany of complaints about religion and Christianity in particular, to be about as tiring as Sunday mass.
Announcing your anger is neither brave nor particularly interesting (liberating for some, perhaps) despite the fact that it does justice to the truth of the matter, a perversion of religiosity that has caused an uncountable number of injuries to humanity through the years.
Is there not something deeper here that can be expressed?
How does the quote “If nothing had any meaning, you would be right. But there is something that still has a meaning.” make you feel?
What does it mean to have faith without doubt? Or doubt without faith?
Absent faith, as an athiest, how does one derive meaning from their life?
These are thoughts that I would deem worthy of exposition. At length.
Hey, just thought I would mention something real quick. I’m not sure under what circumstances you were asked about the religion of your father at the nursing home, but in case there was an emergency they would want to have a priest give him last rights if he were Catholic. I doubt it would be out of disrespect, but as I said I don’t know the circumstances.
Next, you’re right, you do have the right to be angry. However for someone that accuses the religous of being ignorant and arrogant, I see you as no better than they. You’ve grossly generalized EVERY person practically in EVERY religion. Get over yourself sometime.
Beyond that, militant Christians generate militant Athiests which generate more militant Christians. The circle really needs to end, and everyone just needs to learn to mind their own God damn business. I’m pissed at BOTH sides of the fence, they’re all jackasses.
Wow dude. You really need God. He really can help lift that anger that seems to have poisoned you and your life.
I’m so sorry to see someone this angry.
Fundamentalists want to label atheists as angry so that their ideas are marginalized. If they can make the public at large believe we’re all angry and irrational, none of our opinions on anything will matter.
Writing a list of things that make you angry, or worse…making a huge comprehensive list like this one just plays right into their hands.
That was fantastic.
I read every word you said and you are bang on with almost everything.
I’m an athiest myself and I can tell you that we aren’t all angry. Although your reasons as to why anger is a good thing I have to completely agree with.
Thank you for your words. This article alone has given you another subscriber to your feed.
I agree with Matthew Graybosch’s comment above wholeheartedly.
Us atheists are reasonable people, they need to make laws to PUT TO DEATH these INTOLERANT religious people!
All who believes in a god or gods should be rounded up made to denounce their faith or face EXECUTION!
I’m not talking about inhumane burning at the steak or beheading, just arrest them and sentence them to the electric chair or lethal injection.
We could put an end to IRRATIONAL faith altogether if we did this!
Word!
Brilliant ! should be req reading in Schools….give the people a chance to think for themselves..thank you for writing it.
I am paid as a missionary and have been called one for two decades. Somewhere along the way I started to question what I had been raised to beleive, I still hold on to the teachings of Jesus but have beome more and more isolated from the Church. If I was not running a Foundation doing a lot of good humanitarian work I would walk away but I stay and do what I can rather that have myself replaced with someone who just wants to “win souls”.
I need to apologies for arguments I have used against athiests in the past. I am truly sorry for pain my arguments caused, sadly I cannot go back and undo my words.
This was a very well written post and I have bookmarked it to share with others.
Thank you.
Well said, excellent post – it’s about time we started becoming more structured in our arguments of this.
I was ‘blessed’ enough to not be brought up with any kind of religion hard-coded into my childhood, and I never thought it would ever be something that would hinder my position in society. Luckily things aren’t as bad here in the UK.
Best Wishes.
Wow. SO MUCH of your rant has inaccurate and disturbingly biased information. I feel bad for someone who feels the need to spend THAT MUCH TIME and effort on such a rant. Anger of that amount of force and vehemence must be daily poisoning your insides. Its really counterproductive to your entire being to retain that level of serious anger. A lot of your facts are incorrect, and you’ve fallen victim to what the drive-by media wants you to believe about faith in general. and that’s sad. Also, you’re not angry about being who believe in A god. You’re seriously anti-Christian. wow. That said, I will pray for you. ^^ I’m not being smug. But I will pray for you. Have a lovely day!
Nice post. As a English Christian I think I agree with close to 95% of what you said.
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that a LOT of Christians are taught to be afraid of education – I am studying The Bible in the top academic institution for Biblical Studies in Europe and apart from being damned interesting, it both challenges and confirms a lot of my previous beliefs. Despite this, so many people ask about being scared of “losing my faith”. As if stepping beyond blind unquestioning faith is a bad thing.
Keep up the good work.
Hi,
This is from Iran, I am an alos an athiest and have a blog in Persian about atheism.
My blog has been filtered by the government and if they find me according to the official law here I will be executed!
Why? because I simply think differently,
OH! Yeah! We have every right to be angry…
Wow!
That was so eloquent. Thank you.
My teenaged daughter has a word for the blindly religious: Sheeple.
I’m angry that atheism is now politically tied to gay marriage rights, amnesty for illegal immigrants, pro-abortion rights, and so many other things I don’t support. It is now assumed that if you’re an atheist you are an ultra-left wing liberal, and I’m angry about that. I have no political party to vote for now because the republicans are all big business Jesus freaks, and the Democrats are all pro-gay, pro-minority, pro-abortion, anti-white male, liberals. America is doomed.
Wow…well written!!!
I believe there is a paper on this, titled ‘Q.Q. More’.
Beautifully put. Like some of the other posters here have stated, you have eloquently reeled off every major point that makes me extremely uncomfortable with religion, but putting them all in one place is tantamount to exceeding the critical mass of anger and frustration at everything the major religions spout at us day after day. Angry? I’m livid!
A lot of that shit pisses me off and I’m a Christian.
Disclaimer: I am a christian – and according to a lot of atheist people, one you would most likely call fundamentalist 🙂
So I have read most of your rant, but I liked the term “atheistic fundamentalist” (first time for me, I guess Europe is still different than the US). But although you get angry about called being one, I would say you are one nevertheless.
You think your atheistic thinking is the only valid one (and beliefs,God etc. are bullshit). You want to suppress the mayority thinking with your minority thinking (US).
Sounds pretty much like all the definitions of fundamentalism I have heard. Sorry. You really seem to have a problem with other people thinking & believing not the same things as you.
As for getting angry, that’s understandable. Only you do it quite selectively. Christians have to answer for everything that has been done or said in the name of christianity or by religious people, but you are, of course, not willing to answer for everything that has been done or said by atheistic people. No, no, suddenly Stalin, Mao and eugenic scientists of the Third Reich never existed.
Sorry thats a double standard.
And that makes me angry!
Interestingly almost all your anger is directed at the christian faith, while for example the treatment of atheists in islamic countries is on a wholly different level. People that I know from this countries will be an atheist by heart in Europe, but go to the Mosque and “pray” in their home country. Way too dangerous not to be a muslim.
And talking about tolerance for queers…
So you seem to have a problem with christianity specifically.
There is someone on the internet/america with a brain then!!!!!
beautifully written and touching…with you all the way
I for one am an agnostic I guess because I feel you can’t actually call it either way for sure, but in my view of the way the world functions I’m essentially an atheist.
I thought this was very well written. You make many good points and support them well with evidence. My only criticism is your conclusion at the end that anger is necessary and helpful. I don’t feel that that was a point completely thought out. Anger has plenty of places were it is extremely counter-productive, in fact basically every point you made shows this fact. Pious people being angry is very counter-productive to any change you wish to make. On a rather extreme note Hitler and Stalin were very angry people eager for change. Perhaps a better term is frustration rather than anger.
Ultimately all I’m trying to say is that instead of being angry about it try to calmly work the system to your advantage. No great positive social change you talk about was obtained purely through people yelling.
this is to the douchebag that’s so angry. Anger isn’t what causes all the movement in the world and according to yuo when things get done…. love is. Have you ever tried to get someone to do something through anger? They never do it. The only way to get anyone to do anything is through love. God is love, Satan in anger. Which one are you? I think it’s pretty clear who and what guides your life. That’s your curse for being an atheist. You are filled with hate and anger. Life’s short pal, too short to walk around with so much anger and hate. I’ll bet you come from a broken home. I’ll bet all the money I’m worth. Well douchebag good luck with your philosiphy in life.
Oh I got one more question for you douchebag???? Do you know everything in the whole universe? I didn’t think so. Well how about half of everything there is to know? I didn’t think so. But let’s say you did, you know half of everything there is to know in all the universe and all it’s demensions. My question to you is do you think God could live in the other half of what you don’t know about? Mr. Meanie? Mr. angry? You’re a douchebag and whoever would agree with you got to be off thier rocker too.
Look, I dont have a problem with you being an atheist, thats between you and God not you and me. You dont believe in God so for you thats not a problem.
I could still be friends with you as long as you are willing to except my position as I am yours. What I do have a problem with is Atheist dont like something so they force laws to make me “not do things that OFFEND them”. That is Kind of doing exactly what they are complaining about.
This country was founded on Christian values, yes it was. Not necessarily in the the constitution or law but it was in that the vast majority of the people living here were and are Christians. That being said it is just as wrong for Christians for FORCE their views on anyone else as it is for others to FORCE their views on us.
As far as the military goes, that sir is a totally different ball game and many of the the rights we have as civilians, we do not have in the military, most people are smart enough to figure that out going in. If you are in a formation and the formation is praying, you dont want to, just stand there and dont pray. They are not saying you have to pray, but you cannot break formation thats the rule, not that you have to pray. Do we have some bigoted idiotic officers that want to bully others in the military, absolutely, I dealt with my share successfully when I was in the Air Force and I am Christians. Its not that they are Christians or not, its that they are bullys in a place of authority and you atheist just provide one of many outlets for their stupidiy, if you are going to joining the military then deal with it and stop complaining.
Look my bottom line is this, I dont care about the laws, If I want to pray in public in court, in school, on a buss or anywhere else I am going to do so. If I want to talk about God in the same places I am going to do so. I dont expect you to listen if you dont want to, or take part or anything else. If it is a captive audience then just sit there politely and ignore what I am saying, it isn’t hurting you and when it is over leave. Of course in many cases you dont even have to show up.
Look, I dont have a problem with you being an atheist, thats between you and God not you and me. You dont believe in God so for you thats not a problem.
I could still be friends with you as long as you are willing to except my position as I am yours. What I do have a problem with is Atheist dont like something so they force laws to make me “not do things that OFFEND them”. That is Kind of doing exactly what they are complaining about.
This country was founded on Christian values, yes it was. Not necessarily in the the constitution or law but it was in that the vast majority of the people living here were and are Christians. That being said it is just as wrong for Christians for FORCE their views on anyone else as it is for others to FORCE their views on us.
As far as the military goes, that sir is a totally different ball game and many of the the rights we have as civilians, we do not have in the military, most people are smart enough to figure that out going in. If you are in a formation and the formation is praying, you dont want to, just stand there and dont pray. They are not saying you have to pray, but you cannot break formation thats the rule, not that you have to pray. Do we have some bigoted idiotic officers that want to bully others in the military, absolutely, I dealt with my share successfully when I was in the Air Force and I am Christians. Its not that they are Christians or not, its that they are bullys in a place of authority and you atheist just provide one of many outlets for their stupidiy, if you are going to joining the military then deal with it and stop complaining.
Look my bottom line is this, I dont care about the laws, If I want to pray in public in court, in school, on a buss or anywhere else I am going to do so. If I want to talk about God in the same places I am going to do so. I dont expect you to listen if you dont want to, or take part or anything else. If it is a captive audience then just sit there politely and ignore what I am saying, it isn’t hurting you and when it is over leave. Of course in many cases you dont even have to show up.
Look, I dont have a problem with you being an atheist, thats between you and God not you and me. You dont believe in God so for you thats not a problem.
I could still be friends with you as long as you are willing to except my position as I am yours. What I do have a problem with is Atheist dont like something so they force laws to make me “not do things that OFFEND them”. That is Kind of doing exactly what they are complaining about.
This country was founded on Christian values, yes it was. Not necessarily in the the constitution or law but it was in that the vast majority of the people living here were and are Christians. That being said it is just as wrong for Christians for FORCE their views on anyone else as it is for others to FORCE their views on us.
As far as the military goes, that sir is a totally different ball game and many of the the rights we have as civilians, we do not have in the military, most people are smart enough to figure that out going in. If you are in a formation and the formation is praying, you dont want to, just stand there and dont pray. They are not saying you have to pray, but you cannot break formation thats the rule, not that you have to pray. Do we have some bigoted idiotic officers that want to bully others in the military, absolutely, I dealt with my share successfully when I was in the Air Force and I am Christians. Its not that they are Christians or not, its that they are bullys in a place of authority and you atheist just provide one of many outlets for their stupidiy, if you are going to joining the military then deal with it and stop complaining.
Look my bottom line is this, I dont care about the laws, If I want to pray in public in court, in school, on a buss or anywhere else I am going to do so. If I want to talk about God in the same places I am going to do so. I dont expect you to listen if you dont want to, or take part or anything else. If it is a captive audience then just sit there politely and ignore what I am saying, it isn’t hurting you and when it is over leave. Of course in many cases you dont even have to show up.
Very interesting thinking. The way I see this is that Greta is an “atheist” that believes in God but is very angry at him for whatever reason. The difference between a follower of God and an Atheist is that true followers of God do forgive and forget. God Bless
Thank you so much for writing this. I couldn’t agree with you more. I love this, and it was one of very few pieces that have been able to keep me interested in a while.
Thanks again.
Love your work, you are a ray of light in a deluded world!
I hope that you have some forward setup so that you read all of these comments personally because otherwise I wouldn’t normally comment. I think comments are a waste of time since there’s never any resolution.
On that note. Anger has no purpose. Your anger is a waste of time. The same way that my parents told me crying wouldn’t make it better when I was a child, being angry won’t make it better either.
You appear to be pretty well educated so I’ll try not to insult your intelligence. Rather than be angry all the time you should try and educate all of these other people. There are many reasons why atheists are so poorly regarded and you have to get around all of those in order to talk to non-atheists about why you don’t believe what they do believe. Atheism loses the battle against religion for a few reasons.
#1 there’s no real legitimate power center for atheists. By choosing not to participate in religion we’re thereby choosing not to participate in a major organization. Relgious people have thousands of churches across the world with even more priests. I’d like to see someone make the same claim for atheists.
#2 You can’t just be angry, or try and reason with people who have religious beliefs. Their religion gives them a sense of comfort and if you really want to make an easy transition for people who do believe you have to comfort them in some other way. “I don’t believe there’s a god but that doesn’t mean I think it’s okay to kill and rape and steal.”. As much as I don’t believe in relgion or God there are a lot of valuable moral tenants that get over looked by angry people such as yourself. I would argue that “Do unto others as they would do unto you.” may be the operating philosophy behind every atheist. You don’t need a god to think that or do that. You just need to have a half a brain. The thing is, religions DO teach that philosophy and that’s what these people need, otherwise they wouldn’t be going.
I think you have to check yourself and really think about why it is that people believe in religions and what you can EFFECTIVELY do to get them to be more realistic instead of just crowing about why you’re so angry and why you think your anger is valuable and justified. Do you really think you’re helping the atheist’s cause by posting this? All you’re going to do is give religious people more ammunition to say “there goes the angry atheists again” and then crawl back into their cozy little hole of lies.
I’m going to go back to the power center thing again. President Bush is a political figurehead. He gets more power and more control by siding with catholics. What politician in his right mind WOULDN’T side with a religious organization? Do you have any idea what kind of support you get from that? You can’t trust that they actually BELIEVE everything they say they do. They’re just trying to get more votes and more campaign support. Stop being angry and start being nice. You catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar.
I am a heterosexual atheist female. I work and earn a comfortable living. I am an active volunteer for my community. I am married to a wonderful atheist man who shares my anger at one of the above posts. I have rewritten the post by “Brad”.
“what man do you know who would not submit to their wife if they had a woman of utter integrity who provided for him, served him, served others, and made him feel more loved than humanly possible? (thankfully, my love for myself makes me personally feel more loved than humanly possible). Probably all of them (snickers)… And I don’t mean submitted in the context you are familiar with (sorry had to snicker again), but submit as in allow HER to LEAD, be apart of HER. In order to understand some things called freedom, you have to understand common sense.”
I can see the possibility of Brad choking on my words. Just think Brad, your WIFE could be LEADING YOU instead. I bet that creeps you right out?
Neither my husband nor myself see ourselves as being the leader in the relationship. Whatever comes up is handled by both of us and whomever has the best skills pretaining to the matter helps the most, but always with 100 percent input and agreement from both sides. I earn more than my husband does and I have a wall filled with accomplishments, so by Brads definition, my husband should be following ME. Thankfully, I would never disrespect my husbands integrity in such a manner. And if Brads married, yikes!
Bravo for this blog.
I usually don’t comment on random blog posts I find on digg, but this one time, let me just say: Thank you. Thank you so much.
I keep seeing comments that say “a lot of your information is inaccurate” without qualifying that at all. I imagine we’re just supposed to take it for granted (or “take it on faith,” as it were) that their assessment is correct.
I also see lots of people forgiving you, which is cute. It’s comforting to know that we have so many folks in the majority to patronize us. We live sinful lives by being such angry irrational people, but that’s all good, because their imaginary man in the sky will always be willing to forgive us our transgressions. Give me a break…
Other people seem to think this anger has “poisoned your life”, as if that somehow discredits the points you’re making. As long as your articles get people talking, then anger’s more than welcome.
Thanks you for this post. I grew up Catholic and as soon as I was confirmed I stopped going to church because I didn’t agree with anything. Lately I have been reading a lot of Richard Dawkins and other atheist literature so that I can cope with rejecting a religion that brainwashed me. I direct my anger into obtaining knowledge through research on why organized religion is so concerned with using dogmatic tactics in renewing faith. I have discovered that if you just come to your senses and say “wait a minute, when i pray to Jebus in my head, no one is actually listening”. So I now see faith as a form of self hypnosis which eventually turns some people crazy.
I won’t rant on too much, but i’ll share a quick story about a crazy lady that harassed me one night.
It was about 10pm at night during the summer of lets say…2002. I answered the door and this frumpy looking old woman introduced herself. She said that she was from church X and then proceeded to ask me some personal questions about my religious beliefs. I told her that I was raised Catholic but ever since I was confirmed I have decided that church was not for me so i had not attended in 2 years. She tried to convince me to go back to church to SAVE my soul. I said “nah, i’m good” and then she spouted off all these positive reasons to go to church. Then at the end of her rant she said “you know you are on god’s list….and you can be removed.”
This is where is slammed the door in her face. These are the people who concern me the most :
Girlfriend, move to the Netherlands! Almost all are atheists here and marying your girlfriend is perfectly legal here 😉 Also, going out in Amsterdam kicks ass!
Harry – this is not a Christian country built on Christian values. It certainly makes me angry that people lie about this. Simply reading some history on why and how this country was created would help you with your facts. I don’t think you want to though.
No one has ever tried to stop you from praying any where you wanted to. That too is a lie. What was stopped was having the government make everyone stop and pray during government functions. If you would think about it, that is the right thing to do, as the prayer would not ever be the ‘right one’, but the prayer of whomever was in power, and that’s never going to be your religion. The best thing to do is not have the government do ‘prayers’ at all.
If you were honest, you would see that you aren’t a victim that been stopped from praying. You just haven’t been allowed to force your religion on everyone with the help of the government. If you think it’s dishonest, to be saying you were, now that you know how it works, then perhaps you might have some bones to pick with others of your religion who keep saying this.
Anger is good. Sorry those sanctimonious people who are trying to say otherwise. It’s psycologically healthy to respond with anger when you have been abused. As Greta pointed out, if you don’t get angry, nothing changes. Perhaps those who are trying to preach against it, have some reason to not have things change, but it sure sounds like they prefer the abuse to go on. It’s not the operating force behind athiests. How lame.
And no Greta does not believe in God and is ‘angry at him’. You can’t be angry at something you don’t believe in.
Good post. totally understandable anger.
You might want to have a look at this. You will appreciate where the speaker is coming from:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/113
Good post. totally understandable anger.
You might want to have a look at this. You will appreciate where the speaker is coming from:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/113
Good post. totally understandable anger.
You might want to have a look at this. You will appreciate where the speaker is coming from:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/113
I think it is absolutely hilarious that there are meetings and clubs for atheists to meet and talk about how they don’t believe in religion.
If you don’t believe in something…that’s fine. Other people do…Why do you have a right to be angry at them?
The only reason I read something like this is because it was on DIGG. People that troll through these atheist websites spend a lot of time devoted to not believing in something.
I’m not saying you’re wrong for being an atheist, because you’re a person and can do or believe what you like…One of the beauties of our society. I’m just saying, “get a hobbie, or maybe a cat to devote some time to” What happens at these atheist meetings? Does everyone just scowl at eachother? “Do you know that my neighbors go to church every Sunday?” Group replies, “those ass-holes!!!!”
Thank you for writing this. You’ve spoke my mind in a way more clear than I could ever have.
A friend sent me the link to this post, it’s my first time reading your blog.
I just want to thank you, on behalf of all atheists, for posting such an articulate explanation of why we’re angry.
You made my day… perhaps my week and month as well. 🙂
Sara Waalkes
~Angry Feminist Atheist
Well said Greta! When it comes to the various (and numerous) fallacies of religious dogma, the saying “Common sense is not contagious”, always comes to mind.
We’ve tried it the religious way for uncounted millennia… and always, time and time again, end up with the same results. Itâs high time for a change. What our world so desperately needs is a true (and long lasting) era of reason.
BTW: Isn’t the very definition of Insanity; “Doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting different results”?
In an ironic way I wish that there was a brief “afterlife”, just to be able to say to all these religious fools “hey you dumbs suckers, did you really believe that shit about heaven and hell, the pearly gates etc.” And, like Nelson in the Simpsons, give a nasal “Ha ha”.
As Andrew Mueller said, “Pledging yourself to any particular religion is no more or less weird than choosing to believe that the world is rhombus-shaped, and borne through the cosmos in the pincers of two enormous green lobsters called Esmerelda and Keith”
I’m not an total non-believer or gay, but You hit it on the fucking head why organized religion is wrong. all their negative impact and self-satisfaction, inflicting of their beliefs on others while assuming that somewhere behind the scenes all their “good work” makes up for their hateful words and behavior. well done!
Hadn’t seen your blog before. Followed a link from onegoodmove.org, and I’m glad I did.
Fantastic work. This post is bookmarked, and the feed is now subbed.
Very nice article… you now have a new reader! And I don’t even read blogs!!!
I always thought atheists were angry was because they were fat, ugly and lonely.
I particularely get angry when christians “sin” all they want just because the priest will absolve them later on by saying a few hail marys. I hardly know any christians with true faith today, and rather think that there are so many more religions that do stay true to their belief (because they actually believe) whether a lot (i’m not refering to ALL) of catholics just keep up the act because society imposes it. I consider myself to be an agnostic rather than an atheist, but respect all beliefs, including the lack of it.
Atheist are angry because their disposition is of the devil. Satan is in a pathological rage most of the time, a rage that can be readily seen through the manorisms and behavior of some.
I wish I had more to say, but since I just read this while eating my lunch and have to go back to work I just want to say BRAVO!
I agree wholeheartedly with every word. You made some brilliant points and thank you for taking the time to articulate each one.
Excellent!
I like the pictures.
Wow. I am a Christian who started to read your blog because I feel it is important to hear what the world feels we Christians are doing wrong. But, I think that you are less angry at Christians and God and more just angry (and I dare say enjoying it.) While I do not usually go for the bumper sticker theologies, I feel this one applies: “No God, no peace. Know God, know peace!”
Wow. I am a Christian who started to read your blog because I feel it is important to hear what the world feels we Christians are doing wrong. But, I think that you are less angry at Christians and God and more just angry (and I dare say enjoying it.) While I do not usually go for the bumper sticker theologies, I feel this one applies: “No God, no peace. Know God, know peace!”
It bothers me that you clump “religious” people together, as i am sure that it bothers you when atheists are refered to as one monolithic unit. I understand why the above items bother you, but i hope that you can see that spirituality is important to many people (be they Christian, Muslam, Jewish, Hindu, Budist, Wiccan, Zoastrian, or one of the many other religions). Your belief is one of many, Is it right? Not for me, but i support your right to believe in what you want. Shouldn’t you support my right to believe what i want? Do you go around and tell children that there is no Santaclaus or easter bunny because you hold the “truth” is such high esteem? i would not try to force you to believe. Accept that people are and can be religious. and yes i am one of those people you hate, but funny thing is that i don’t hate you. I hope that your life is full of love regardless of what you believe.
That was…Wow!
About the only thing I have any issue with is toward the end of your piece. I will admit I haven’t had a chance to go to the link you included, so indulge me.
I agree that issues can’t be addressed for solution with everyone in the middle of the road – it takes the extremes to come up with the ideas. However, the solutions can’t and shouldn’t be those extreme ideas, as they will tend to alienate more people than they will accomodate. We work with the ideas of the extremes to find where the “real” middle is, so that the solution encompasses most all (notice I have to say most, because wyo will ALWAYS have folks who wil never be completely satisfied one way or the other).
Just my $2 (inflation, ya know)
I believe in God, but I also believe that no one has the right to tell another person how they should feel. If you are angry, be angry. no one on this earth has the right to take that away from you. Many of the items you posted anger me as well even as a believer.
Great stuff. Thanks!
Angry leads to hate, hate leads to suffering
As a ‘believer’ I’m mad about all of those things also.
Another thing that makes me mad is when anyone (atheists or christians) lump everyone in the same boat, i.e. believers do this, or atheists do this.
Not all people of faith believe in creationism. Not all belive there is an after life. Not all belive that homosexuality is an abimination. etc…
Just so we’re all on the same page: these are arguments not against the WORD of any imparticular religion, but against the actions men take in the name of those teachings.
A man’s view is subject to interpretation which means it can certainly be wrong – but that doesn’t go against the validity of the source they draw from.
If this piece is just to show injustice then I’m really happy it’s written. On the other hand, if it’s a strike against all those who seek a higher power then I feel sorry for the writer because once you disguard a benchmark, you can feel free to do anything you want for any or no reason. There would be no order, only chaos. [P.s. high-five to anyone who got that reference]
-Sebastian B.
Orson Scott Card is a wonderful sci fi writer, and a Mormon. In one of his Enders books, he has a mom passionately discussing that “parents indoctrinate their children” – this is how you make them grow up to be moral people. I got really angry about this, mostly because the characters (and Card) saw this as a good thing. Brainwashing the youth! Then I realized my parents indoctrinated my siblings & me to be rational and logical . . .while still remaining loosely protestant themselves. You know, my folks rock. As far as I know, my sibs and I are all atheist/agnostic, and the folks don’t care. Compare that to Ingrid, or the scarred recovering catholics we’ve all encountered.
Absolutley amazing. I happen to be a “believer,” although I’m a Pagan and understand science as being merely the language we find to describe Her creations and I see no reason for all of this “narrow god” business. Frankly, God (by any other name) does not have a physical form and can only be viewed via Her creations. If you believe in the ground beneath your feet and the wind against your face, you certainly have a better grasp of the Divine presence (however you’d like to interpret it,) than these Christians and their limited “narrow god.”
I will totally be passing this on!
Peace!
Wow!! There is hope for the world with people like you in it!! This is the best I have read in a long long time! I so hope things will start to brighten up, that people will start understanding the complexity of humanity. I live in Sweden and here it is not that extreme, most people are not believers anymore or are not as fanatic believers anyway.
I hope there will be a day when you and your woman can marry and be happily ever after!
I agree with you across the board and am angry too. The details (for the most part), the rationales, the whys, and troubles described burned into many people’s minds. These things make me crazy, and the worst part is it reflects badly on me. I’m Roman Catholic, can’t understand why anyone believes creationism as a world view, am angry at the intolerance of others, the tolerance shown the wrong-does, the horrors inflicted through the centuries, and the blindness caused by unquestioning followers.
I just don’t blame it on God, I blame it on people both misunderstanding theology and using it for their own gain. And while your points are valid, also understand where you point your anger matters. I hate Bush and America’s current international stance, but I don’t hate either America or democracy – but that is what we represent in the world.
So be angry, be angry along-side me, be angry at all of the injustice and insanity out there, but don’t be angry JUST because there is theism mixed in.
Fabulous piece. Dykes rule!
Fantastic article, a joy to read, reasoned, intelligent and with a human touch that you would not get in the science based arguments.
Thanks for this, even though you’re preaching to the choir. I really hope some thinking religious types stumble on it and maybe start to get an inkling of just why it’s a big deal to me what they believe. (Tax exemptions for churches and medical policy based on religious doctrine are my hotspot issues.) I got into a “discussion” with a co-worker yesterday on why I can’t just live and let live. I suggested he read your blog. He refused, because he “already knows what it says”. And that makes me angry.
You’re a fat, ugly whore. Your anger doesn’t impress me. Go drink bleach.
We Muslims can careless about what you want to do, as long as you do it in your own backyard, some body coming after you is just you imagination. Just remember this verbal violence leads to physical violence. Why you would be angry at 9/11? You people deserved it, it was just matter of time!
Great post! It’s about time Atheists started getting angry.
I am one of those believers, and it was very informative to read this post. Thank you.
However, I have to echo another comment. It seems that no matter what religious people do it will make you angry. In fact, the only option you seemed to leave open for me to not make you angry would be to become an atheist. We can’t be tolerant, because then we’re hypocritical. We can’t be intolerant because then we’re just jackasses. What can we do? You mentioned that we often don’t listen. I would be willing to listen, but I get the feeling that even if I said nothing and listened intently my presence would still make you angry. So I’m at a loss concerning what to do.
I get angry when people say things to me like: It takes just as much faith to be an athiest as it does to believe in god.
I actually not an atheist, I’m agnostic, I truly don’t know, and there is no evidence suggesting that a god exists, which means I don’t believe until there is more evidence!
Absence of beleif is not evidence of faith.
Amen … err … Bravo!
J. J. Ramsey answered c4bl3fl4m3’s question “What is it that atheists really want?” by saying:
“Depends. For some atheists, the agenda is to be treated like human beings and accepted as first-class citizens.”
and
“For others, it is to knock back the influence of religion or get rid of it altogether.”
and
“For yet others, it is the promotion of evidence-based thinking over trust in handed-down traditions that are less than trustworthy.”
That’s at least three things, and I am profoundly supportive of #1 and #3. But, the second part of #2 – getting rid of religion altogether – would only be possible by murdering me and my many co-religionists.
My church has worked HARD for many, many years to get equal rights for atheists and other oppressed groups. Who was the last man imprisoned for blasphemy in the USA? A Universalist preacher, of course. What religious group has performed more illegal interracial or homosexual marriages in the USA than any other? The Unitarian Universalists, that’s who.
But many of the loud “angry” atheists are so focused on the religion=evil “fundamentalist” viewpoint that they treat us like catholics treat witches. I read your post (and I agree with you!) and I am glad to see that you are not among the group that I characterize as “fundamentalist atheists” – people like PJ and Hitchens, who are as intolerant and narrow-minded as the Talibani.
Keep being angry. Keep fighting. But watch out for those who have merely replaced religious bigotry with anti-religious bigotry! They do your cause more harm than good.
Sounds to me like you are angry at your own generalizations and stereotypes. I find it ironic that you are guilty -in your rant – of the same things that make you rant so.
I am angry that the Christians have *billions* of dollars worth of real estate and pay no property taxes to support the services which they use.
I am angry that the IRS has the power to decide that Christianity is a religion (and thus exempt from property taxes) but that Pastafarianism isn’t, so I still have to pay property taxes, despite eating spaghetti regularly. I am angry that eating the body of some guy who’s been dead a long time is somehow more legitimate than eating pasta.
I am angry that my son goes to school and has his teacher and principal contradict what his parents have told him and try to force him to accept subservience to some imaginary friend.
I am angry that the christians are so focused on sex that they have to look inside everyone’s pants before letting two people who love each other commit to each other and have the right to do so.
I am angry that religion teaches people to turn off their capacity for critical thought and that they then use that inability in other areas of their lives, including politics, work, and family.
Great post!
Stumbled upon this (I love the plug-in).
I remember a few years back hearing my christian parents (dad’s a priest, mom works in church doing various stuff) talk about some election the Swedish church had. If I recall correctly it was something about a high ranking post in the hierarchy, and they said that it was good that the openly lesbian individual (not sure which church status) didn’t win.
Of course, I asked why, and they responded we would lose face in the international community.
I immediately asked them if this wasn’t discriminating a person because of her sexual orientation.
Their response was: no, followed by some bullshit and then quickly changed the topic.
Great read, stay strong.
… sigh … The shame of it is, you had some really good points, but toward the end, your contempt for straight, white men starts to eat through your otherwise well-reasoned post. For example, we’ve been listening to (and falling all over ourselves to please) black people for about 60 years now… maybe they could try listening to *us* for ten seconds now? And, of course, you go back to the tired issue of gay marriage over and over again, suggesting that that’s really what you’re angry about and everything else is mostly just philosophical moral outrage. You’d do better to suggest that straight marriage shouldn’t carry any legal benefits (or even be sanctified/recognized by the government)… THAT actually makes sense.
I agree with most everything you wrote, especially the 1% bit, and I love your writing style.
Thank you for writing this article. It addressed many important issues that need attention and energy put toward them.
However, I’m very confused what atheism is, so I’m not sure if I am one. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that atheism makes the claim that the re exists a set of things (mostly those that are often put into the set labled “diety” and/or “god”) that is able to be defined and that it is non-existent. I’m OK up until this point. But, then I look for the definition of the items in this set, and I can’t find it. What are the things that atheists deny the existence thereof?
I can’t find a definition of such a set. So, for me, it would seem that atheism is faith based, such that it is rooted in the faith that there exists a definition-of-a-set that is not contained in The Universe. The non-existence of an undefined set does not bother me, I can believe in the validity of such a statement, however, it’s the claim of the non-existence of a defined set that I’m having trouble with.
But, perhaps my lack of faith merely makes me some form of agnosticist? Is that similar to atheists? Would the same post above apply if we substituted the phrase “atheist” everywhere with “agnosticist”?
I get angry that this page assumes all Christians are this way.
I’m angry Gretta takes a few bad “Christians” and generalizes those few to represent everyone.
Greta,
I think that you have posted some valid critiques of Christianity and while I do not claim to have an answer for everything, I respectfully maintain that I have a good counterargument for most of your points. With that in mind, I invite you, or anyone reading this to get in contact with me by visiting http://nbyfleet.com/contact/ and sending me an email, then we can have an open exchange of ideas.
woah,,,
–Im angry because i cant even write my name in the comment because i know that if any of my religious friends, parents,,, etc… see it,,,they{ll get mad, and star tto talk aout the gratness of god….
you said exactly what iÂŽve been trying to tell everyone in the past 5 years…,,its hard to be an atheist..even more if you live in Latin america like me…
I agree wholeheartedly and it reminds me of what one of my university professors said about the status quo. Normalcy is one of the most dangerous concepts because those things that are percieved as normal have the power to have them seen that way. Those in power have no reason to be angry, those looking for justice clearly do.
Attagirl. Excellent summary. And anger is good, when properly channelled. More of this sort of anger is a Good Thing.
I just stumbled in from Digg. Freaking spot-on!
I’m one of those people who will be using this for future reference when people don’t understand why atheists might possibly feel persecuted. Thank you for putting it so eloquently. You’re definitely a force for positive change in the world.
I was shown this link, shared on Facebook. It’s the first essay of yours I had read.
And, before I did, I scanned the ‘catagories’ of your essays on the side.
Feminism, cats, athiest… how did I assume the artical would be about something, if not hundreds, of things that made you angry?!?!
I don’t have a lot to commment on, regarding this essay… well, that’s not true, I think I could write for days regarding this litany… except that, it didn’t really serve it’s purpose.
I walked away from it feeling a renewed sense that most athiests are just malcontents, angry at a lot of things, including a lot that don’t concern them, or that they cannot control.
There could have been a lot of ways to convey the same thoughts… using different words, ie “Hope”… as in “I hope, in 10 years nearly half the country wouldn’t vote for an athiest presidential candidate”… but you still chose to use the word anger.
I imagine, if I was an athiest, I’d walk away from this artical not inspired, but angry, and sullen… and I think that’s the real reason athiests are always “angry”… it lacks any sense of optimism.
You know, I get angry when some asshole comes up to me and tells me I shouldn’t believe what I do. I also get angry when people fight against my right to pray, or even have a private minute. I get angry when I hear some idiot thinks Christmas should be stopped (let’s ignore the fact that many businesses rely on it). And I get angry but that Atheist attribute every horrible grievance to every member of the faith world.
But you know I deal with it. I suck it up. I realize not everyone has the same beliefs as me and go on with my day. I might blow off the steam playing a game, or just exercise or do anything. Just give up on trying to convert everyone to my way of thinking and stop thinking that all of one sect are the same. Hell I’ve had a few atheists to a christmas party (along with a couple jewish friends) So obviously some can get over it. Instead of remaining angry and trying to change other people I live my life.
I just sort of wish all the atheists (and hell anyone from a different religion who just gets into my face about mine) would grow up and do the same thing. But please continue to feel angry, it seems that you want to be angry. Personally I’m going to go do something else. You know, Go live my life rather then itemized and bitch about every little thing that’s bothering me.
One other comment. Enough pictures. They have little to do with your posts and only undermine everything you’re saying. I read the whole thing but by the third grouping I had given up on what you were saying (most of that was “ok you’re angry” but a lot of it was also “oh goodie another picture” Some pictures had a point. Most didn’t.
Want people to actually care about what you say? Try to write a little more like a blogger (pictures when they enhance) and a little less like face book (let’s see what kind of crazy crappy thing I can put on my posts/website/wall/system so everyone can see how I think)
For those saying it’s all about Bad Evil Slaughtering Religions – no it’s not. I’d get – and do get – just as angry about Soft Soppy All Loveydovey Religions. It’s the difference between *critical thought* and *parroting rules*. Whether you make up a vengeful skydaddy or a fluffy pink unicorn to believe in – it’s still MADE UP. Don’t make me live my life by your playground rules.
Oh and Frank? That’s fine. And if you want to go pray in a quiet spot, be my guest. But don’t you dare start trying to suggest that this is normal sane behaviour, or that we should indoctrinate all children to do the same under pain of some dreadful future fate. No? Want to have Christian laws? Then you get my anger.
Bravo!
I say fuck’em. Let them have their imaginary friend. But don’t try to force him down my throat.
Another line that fuckin burns my ass is “so you really think man came from a monkey” to which I usually say “read a book asshole”.
I get angry that I occationally read articles like this and then get spammed by christian groups.I hope this isn’t one of those times.
Are you sure you’re reading that pie chart for the Gallup poll correctly? It seems to indicate that 55% would vote for an Atheist, not 45%.
With re: to What Atheists Want…
What *this* atheist wants (and I mean me) is for religion to Mind its Own Business and stay a healthy and safe distance from any body in society with the authority to apply their religious beliefs to another’s life. I want it far away from, for example, schools, government, law, military or labour organizations.
It’s all very well and good for a theist to say “this is just what I feel” or “I have faith that…” but the INSTANT they try to apply anything which can’t be universally experienced to the lives of others, they’ve stepped over the line. And let’s be honest – they step over the line ALL THE TIME. An angry atheist feels (s)he is safeguarding secular society, protecting themselves and others from all manner of bias and bigotry.
Religions have far, far too much sway over all our lives – sway we can’t easily “choose” to avoid. That we’re insulted and marginalized for resenting this power over our lives is extremely troubling.
-Charlotte
Thank you for writing this. It’s nice to see someone expressing the anger that I feel sometimes, especially seeing it done so eloquently.
I think that some of your comments are very true and make me angry as well. Such as the comment about the priests molesting children is so wrong and I agree with what you said with that. But I disagree about your point of people’s opinions of prayer. Well I guess I agree, but it isn’t really a valid point. Everyone interprets differently, that’s where philosophy comes from, and individuality. So I guess I’m saying that I agree with the point that some people misuse prayer, but we can’t really criticize them for that because they might be right. We don’t know. Same goes for reading and interpreting the Bible/Torah/whatever book you want. We can never truly know what the “Supreme Being” is trying to get across because we aren’t them. Also I disagree about your points on Science, creationism and evolution. If you were to study all three you would learn that in fact all three agree with each other at certain points, but you need to research first. I do agree though that it is wrong what they are teaching in public schools. I think that they should teach strictly scientific. That way everyone should agree because it is science, no religion, but also not Darwin’s Theory, but rather valid scientific points, which understandably would be hard. At one point you said that philosophy isn’t really that great, or however you put it that’s how I interpreted it, anyways, philosophy is completely valid because it’s all just theory, not necessarily all truth, and atheism would involve philosophy because you can’t prove what will happen to you after you die unless you die and come back to life. So you indeed have your own philosophy on life. And it is completely fine to have this faith because we use faith in everyday life. One thing that seemed kind of stupid, referring to what you stated, was the comment on our Christianized society in North America. It is kind of hard to get away from a religious society because most people have a viewpoint on this and therefore our leaders will choose the way our society is. This is unfortunate for those who don’t believe in these things. So I think what I’m really wondering after reading this is … are you wanting to have an atheism movement?
Greta, that’s a fantastic post.
To the point, and making (good and) valid points!
Points that just have to be yelled out, at that, given the current state of affairs.
You know what makes me angry (in addition to the above), and I’m not even really an atheist (more like an agnostic of sorts)?
The complete and utter ignorance toward the questions and implications put together here, entitled “Questions for certain Gnostics”:
http://www.twinkle.ws/docs/questions.html
Please feel free to comments, if you have patience for reading it (it’s not too long, promise).
If I head on over to my neighbour, hit the doorbell, and tell them “Hey, you know what? 1 plus 1 is three. Would you like to pray to God with me?”
Well, they would just shake their heads, and think I’d finally lost it.
Now tell me what the difference is?
The difference between plain and simple ignoring the implications presented on the url above (questions.html), and me harassing my neighbours with absurdities?
Should anyone have comments to my “Questions for certain Gnostics”, I’d be very interested.
Thanks
Jorn
“…atheists, by contrast, say that humanity is a microscopic dot on a microscopic dot, an infinitesimal eyeblink in the vastness of time and space.”
I get all the joy there is to be had from contemplating The Everything and how insignificant we are to it – while God, this judgemental zealot, creator of doomed worlds with fissures and fires, this tedious macrocosm of the smallest ideas of humankind and its greatest flaws – there is nothing in that concept that can inspire us to great heights.
By which I mean, you so get it.
Gretta. Thank you for so articulately expressing many of the real issues I, as an atheist, feel most days.
Since renoucing a christian upbringing in my early teens, I have had several hundred encounters with bigoted religious persons attempting to tell me that just because I don’t beleive what they do, I am inferior and will spend eternity in damnation.
The irony, is that they will spend their entire lives fighting this battle in vain, a futile task that I would liken to that of Dante’s famous literature on the place of fire and brimstone.
If you ever have an inclination to begin an international atheism association (which naturally should attain tax free status) and need someone in Australia to piss on the flames of religious hellfire, let me know.
I don’t suppose I could convince you to let my mother adopt you? I would love to claim you as family and be your brother.
Wow! Just wow!
I hope you don’t mind if I link to this post.
Thank You
I agree with you – with one exception – don’t blame all christians, some of them are good persons who don’t push anyone to anything – I know few priests (both evangelic and catholic) which are good to speak with them and which will never try to convert you.
And I’m atheist – I red bible (many times) and other books about it, i’ve red Koran, I’ve red many other books about religion and still don’t believe in praying. I can’t tell if God (or gods) is somewhere, but if it will not try to convince me to kneel before him, I will not fight against it.
(sorry for my english, I’m not from english speaking country)
“I’m angry that children get taught by religion to hate and fear their bodies and their sexuality. And I’m especially angry that female children get taught by religion to hate and fear their femaleness, and that queer children get taught by religion to hate and fear their queerness.”
One more example belongs here: Genital Alteration. The big-3 Western religions (to varying degrees) have led to Genital Alteration being common in many parts of the world. In many Islamic societies, alteration of female genitals is common. Excision of penis tissue is also central to Islam and Judaism, and quite well tolerated and appreciated by Christians in the United States as a sexuality retardant.
So now you have one more thing to be really angry about: Religion (directly or indirectly) caused the parts of your penis which evolved to protect it and produce pleasure to be hacked off. They sure showed us who’s boss, didn’t they?
I think it’s amazing that you are as bad as politicians and religious zealots when it comes to approving comments.
You want to only show comments that support your beliefs, and don’t have the guts to post comments that debate your beliefs rationally and intelligently.
One of the worst forms of hypocrisy is not being able to hold your own when you want to bitch. You don’t even deserve the title of “Atheist”, and you CERTAINLY have no right to bitch when you cower behind your keyboard in such a manner.
Wow , that was brilliant , I’m glad you’re angry!
So, you’re angry … as much as the next person … about a myriad of past and present situations. I get angry myself reading about much of what angers you *AND* I’m a believer. Does that automatically make us adversaries?
To use a quote:
“As if that fucking matters.”
Will it someday be possible for you to meet me and not hold any anger for things I had/have absolutely no control over – both in the past and the present? Can we work together to improve the world in which we live without seething over what the other person’s personal beliefs are?
If atheists can’t look at Christians without placing blame, and Christians can’t look at atheists without feeling threatened, then our collective efforts to improve our situation are doomed to failure before we begin.
Someone wrote: “A few months ago I startled someone who had never noticed that the first two books of Genesis flatly contradict each other.” Um, I think you mean the first two chapters of Genesis. There’s only one book of Genesis. I’m sure you really impressed that believer by your superior biblical knowledge.
Greta Christina, this is a fine post, but atheist to atheist, I want to quibble with one of your complaints: “so many believers treat prayer as a cosmic shopping list when it comes to health and illness.” Well, why shouldn’t they? Jesus told his followers that they could ask for anything in prayer, and it would be given to them. He was lying, of course, but I don’t blame those people who take Jesus seriously for believing it. And there are still plenty of diseases for which modern “scientific” medicine can do little or nothing, and there are many people in the world who can’t afford or who otherwise have no access to those medicines anyway (for various reasons, among them the thoroughly secular dogmas of capitalism and the “free market”); so why shouldn’t they ask their gods for help? (This was even more true back when Jesus was working the marks.)
I’m as angry and militant an atheist as you, I think, but there are times when my fellow atheists’ contempt for their fellow human beings bothers me. That goes double for those whose religion is Science. I trust you’re not one of those.
Nice blog.
I am pretty angry as well.
But I am not angry at your average believer. I can’t get angry at stupidity. I am a school teacher and if I got angry at ignorance and stupidity every time I ran into it, I would have thrown myself in front of a school bus many years ago.
“Because anger has driven every major movement for social change in this country, and probably in the world.” Jesus made his sacrifice out of Love, not anger. And he loves you just the same, regardless of all the anger. “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”
-Luke 23:34
This is a very good posting. I just wanted to post a quick thumbs up!
It seems to me that Greta is confounding two issues: the question of the existence of God (theism vs atheism) and the subject of the Enlightenment (reason vs revelation). On both issues there is a middle ground which I suppose would be offensive to angry people on both sides.
Agnosticism, literally “not knowing”, is a perfectly respectable position of intellectual honesty regarding the existence of God. And the issue of the relative merits of reason and revelation brings to mind Shakespeare: “There is more in heaven and on earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophies.” I read this as an excellent caution against intellectual overreaching.
I entirely agree with those who get angry about the hypocrisy and intolerance of many religious people, who get angry about those who exploit religion for their own ends, and who get angry about those who think that they have a direct pipeline to God. Anger about these things has a very long history as documented by the teachings if an itinerant Galilean rabbi two millenia ago.
How about you are angry because you can’t control your circumstances. You cannot experience God’s love when you try to control everything. The fact is you can’t. You cannot control you family, friends, weather, how long you will live, and etc. You know it doesn’t matter how hard you try, you are powerless. And that makes you angry. If you fully submit your will to God and seek his truth, he’ll set you free. I guarantee it. When you try to walk a sinless life, Jesus will communicate with you and answer your prayers. I used to be an atheist and I have been experiencing Jesus’ miracles!
Thankyou.
That is an excellent article!
BTW: I usually point out to the Xians that their belief in everything Jesus said includes Luke 19:27 😉
There are pills that can fix that for ya.
Good job. I don’t know you, but you are my hero today. I am a Christian and you know what… I agree 110% with you. Then again, the Church and I don’t so much get along 😛 I guess it all fits together, eh? Either way… keep angry because you are 100% right… in order to get change, you need to get riled up and FIGHT FOR IT.
… I really can’t say anything that hasn’t already been said…
You have a beautiful soul.
The foremost reason for my anger is that “Christians” (fundies) insist on establishing their religion in government to enforce compliance with their beliefs on everyone else, even though that is forbidden by our Constitution.
I think everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, but do not have the right to use government to force submission to their particular religious beliefs. This country was not founded as a Christian country, in fact, many of our founders were Deists, not Christians, and even those who were Christians were afraid of the other sects of Christianity and insisted on the separation of church and state.
This piece meant a lot to me. It sucks that so many people gave you crap for your efforts, perhaps they need to read it through again for some more clarity… and paying attention this time might help.
I really appreciate that you took the energy to put your feelings into words, what I don’t think you know is that you’ve also put many other people’s feelings into words at the same time. Thank you.
Exceptional post. Makes me glad I live in the UK where religion is generally practised in a quiet, personal and privatised sense…
I’ve veered between angry atheist to compromising to…well I don’t know anymore. I love what Dawkins says, I just hate the way he says it (he’s also shite on scripture but hey)…I think Rorty’s ideas about how religion should be a privatised activity, with little externalised social presence, is great, but ultimately the reason organised religions (as opposed to faith) happen is because it’s a very effective means of social, moral and intellectual control.
I worry that in the next century there will be another civil war in the US over this – Europe has it’s own problems with Islam at the moment, but at least got the intra-Christian religious wars out of the way a few centuries ago and they weren’t pretty or especially quickly resolved.
This blog is making me an angry atheist again…
You are angry at God because you are pursuing a gay life style and are thus living in sin. Rather than asking forgivness and turning away from sin, you chose to become a Christian hater. If I wanted to write an article about all of the bad aethiests of the world, I could go on forever. There are some bad peple who “claim” to be Christians. That is no reason to hate all Christians. There are plenty of aethiests to hate as well. Maybe you shold look in the mirror before you go and make blanket hate statements about some of the most loving, wonderful people in the world. Most Christians I know would go out of their way to love you. Perhaps you should seek some of that “professional” councelling you were talking about to sort out your anger issues.
Sometimes, atheism is attractive to me. There’s always a time or two when I just feel like there’s no point to my existence, there’s no meaning to my life, there’s no soul in my body.
Then, other times, I just know that I have a soul, and that soul is linked to some thing else, something far more significant than the biology of the short lifetime I’m spending on this here mudball. I’m not just here to reproduce and die, the animal’s way.
Go ahead, use the page search function in your browser. Search for the word soul. You’ll only find it, on this page, in this comment.
Atheists very seldom find use for the word soul.
I found it rather amusing, that after reading this entire piece, having found a lot of common threads and beliefs, and even picked apart a few arguments I found to be weak, I scrolled to the bottom and found comments from religious people, saying God loves you anyway. They just don’t know when to quit. You don’t say Merry Christmas to Jews, and you don’t say God bless you to atheists.
By the way, excellent piece, you’ve made a lot of good points, particularly about the neccessity for anger. Thank you for posting this.
~Kevin
This essay brings tears to my eyes. Thank you for writing this. I’ll be passing it along to a long list of people. I agree with you so passionately, I don’t have words to express it.
This essay brings tears to my eyes. Thank you for writing this. I’ll be passing it along to a long list of people. I agree with you so passionately, I don’t have words to express it.
Try reading “Letter to a Christian Nation,” by Sam Harris. It’s an easy read compared to the Bible (which I HAVE read cover to cover!).
I’m not the least bit angry because, my “GOD” is science and science will ultimately triumph over fairytales.
And nobody can convince me that Santa Clause isn’t real either!!!
So just learn to ignore the ignorant. It’s a proven fact that the more intelligent you are, the less likely you are to buy into religious dogma. That’s why only 5% of NOBEL PRIZE winning scientist believe in God (and the other 5% aren’t positive.).
When you’re ignorant, you need something “magical in the sky” to answer your little questions because you’re unable to understand scientific reasoning!
Be happy with your views but don’t try to force them down everyone else’s throat!
Peace be with you!
Nice work. This entry was brought to my attention through email and I’m glad it was. Do you imbibe in forums? We could use your intellect at gnawd.com A great Atheists forum in it’s infancy. I’ve posted a link here there. Looking forward to your next rant.
The problem with god is not the idea, it is with people who choose to believe. Too often people jump on a bandwagon without really knowing or understanding why other people do the things they do, or believe the things they believe. If you ask the average schmuck on the street if global warming is a fact and they will answer yes – why, because journalists who have a vested interest in keeping the story alive say that it is. Likewise with religion. Did you notice your own little knee-jerk reaction to the implied proposal that global warming might not be true???? It seems that the more outrageous your claims, the more people will believe you. Whenever money or power (read money) is involved, someone is going to be really pissed if you gainsay them. Religion, specifically Cristianity is so ingrained into the western psyche that even Greta Christina wants to get married and gain a kind of psuedo-religeous legitimacy for her current partnership. Only when all children are taken from their parents and brought up in politically neutral creches will all hatreds be removed from the world – the problem with this idea is: can we guarantee that the appointed guardians are -unlike the child’s parents – blemish free. Of course, this position implies that we have overcome the objections of society to the idea in the first place.
Ok, down to specifics. I am angry with christians because of their disingenuousness – while the inquisition was not as terrible as most people claim, the crusade against the Albigensians was. hundreds of people were burnt at the stake because of their belief, and ten years ago I met a priest in Cairo who – in this day and age – told me the the crusade was justified. Forget about the fact that an entire culture and language was wiped from the face of the Earth.
My hatred of religion is because those that believe in heaven – or nirvana – are too willing to send non-believers to it.
For Greta Christina – you don’t need the approval of a bunch of unthinking hicks. Enjoy your life and don’t worry about marriage – it’s not all that it is cracked up to be, I know, I tried it twice.
p.s. I apologise for the cliché “in this day and age”
For God’s sake woman calm down! Anger leads to nothing positive.
God doesn’t ever say it’s wrong to be angry, he gets angry himself. But he never once will stop loving you, because whether you believe it or not he did create you. You can argue with me and ill respect that but heres something for you, take events in your history and run them through your mind how many of your friends have become christians after being touched by God. Maybe none, maybe some, who knows but you. Did you stop being friends with them just because they were christians. If you did then you are doing the exact same thing all those people in your anger speech were doing. I don’t think that any person should discriminate against anyone else. But some do and christians are not any better then athiests, but true christians forgive those who persecute them. I’m not perfect but I hope that someday you will realize not all christians hate you and the ones that do are not followers of the same God as me. i forgive you for what you have said, classifying me with all those people who hurt you. I hope you read this and understand that anger is just an emotion but when you let it control your thoughts and actions then it becomes wrong. i’ll pray for you and hope that someday you will recognize God as I do, He is my friend as well as creator and will not let me down.
Daniel Hocking
I just want to make a quick comment and I didn’t read all the other comments that have been said before because there are a lot but it just sounds like you need to meet or read about some real christians. I understand that it’s very easy to support your view, and many people’s view today, that Christians are all bad people but could you try to realize that looking at all the bad cases of Christianity doesn’t define what a Christian is. I hope that you will meet a real Christian that actually loves.
The idea that religion is at the root of human misery overlooks a less obvious but more comprehensive explanation, simple tribalism. Humans seem to have a genetic predisposition to drawing lines in the sand and proclaiming that those who stand with me on my side of the line are good and those who stand apart from me on the other side of the line are bad.
Humans are also endlessly inventive about the basis on which the lines in the sand should be drawn. It’s like a smorgasbord: You can pick any combination from race, sex, class, politics, sexual orientation, age, nationality, language, and yes, that perennial favorite, religion.
What is disheartening is to see a growing number of atheists, who one might suppose are rational people, drawing yet another damn line in the sand. La plus ca change, la plus ca meme chose.
Brad says, ââŠafter exposing you to God and the message of Life, we have to let you go. Itâs up to you to find God after that.â So, just by announcing my status as an atheist I am attacking all religions, but its okay for Christians to expose me to God? Mark that down as a BIG reason for atheist anger. I already put up with more than enough advertising telling me how awful my life is, but how much better it can be if only Iâd buy what theyâre selling. But Iâm NOT going to buy that deodorant and Iâm NOT going to pray to Bradâs God. In fact, Iâm putting myself on all Christiansâ Do Not Call list.
Then he says, âSome that you mentioned, I felt like had been bastardized. Like wives submitting to their husbands… what women do you know who would submit to their husband if they had a man of utter integrity who provided for her, served her, served others, and made her feel more loved than humanly possible? Probably all of them…â Doubtful. I would never submit to a man any longer than he would submit to me. I see the value in learning to submit and in leading, and I want to experience both. And I want men to experience both. And if a man had utter integrity, he would want the same. Brad doesnât seem to understand the benefits of submitting except in such a way as that he will never have to, but sure wants his would be wife to, and be pleasant about it. Itâs not necessary to bring wife beaters into the equation at all; itâs still entirely unworkable for a large segment of the population.
I am, however, intrigued by Bradâs challenge to read the Bible and pray to God for several days. I suspect that any âwonderfulâ experience will be more about focusing oneâs thoughts and actions than anything else, but I may take up that challenge. One thing I have noticed about atheists reading Bibles, though, is that it usually cements their disbelief given the Bibleâs contradictory nature. But I want to extend the challenge to Brad to ask him NOT to pray and to test his favorite parts of the Bible against reason and science, and be open to what he finds. I suspect I will be left wanting.
Good post.
I see that many, if not most theists commenting don’t seem to have read past the title. One wonders if that’s why they can maintain their religion, as it sounds as if they haven’t read past the title of the bible either.
Greta nor atheists in general are not angry at people for having religion or belief in a god. We get angry at the things many theists do.
That there are some theists that don’t do such things hardly makes a difference. If you really believe that these people should not be representing you, then get off your collective asses and stand up to them.
I doubt Brad would survive that experience.
That was amazing… In fact, I feel like smashing something just now. I won’t though 😉
THE MAJORITY OF YOU POINTS ARE ANGRY THAT THEY DON’T AGREE WITH YOU, AND YOU HAVE VERY FEW THAT SEEM LIKE YOU DIDN’T JUST PULL THEM OUT OF THIN AIR.THATS ALL MAYBE GIVE SOURCES OR PROOF OF WHAT YOUR SAYING, WELL I GUESS YOUR NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE OF ANYTHING NOR DO YOU HAVE TO DEFEND YOUR ANGER BUT AT LEAST HAVE A GOOD REASON THATS VALID.ALSO NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RANTS WITH HYPER LINKS IN THEM.
Thank you for this.
I think of myself as an agnostic, rather than an atheist: it’s a big universe, and I can’t prove the non-existence of God or an afterlife. I’m certainly not omniscient, and I accept that I do choose to believe some things on authority rather than personal understanding – as do we all.
However, I don’t think the supposed “evidence” for the existence of God or an afterlife (however defined), or the literal truth of any of the religious texts, would count as probable cause for any course of action (or inaction). And while I’m prepared to let people use these as an excuse for activities that I consider harmless, if pointless, I do become angry when these beliefs or traditions are used to justify actions that are not only stupid but actually evil – female genital mutilation, “honour killings”, bans on stem cell research, the mass suicides of apocalyptic cults (and I’d include anyone who justifies environmental vandalism with variations on “I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns”), as well as the many you list.
I’m not denying that much good has come from religious teachings: “Thou shalt not kill”, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, and many others are excellent precepts, regardless of their source. But this does not mean that the same sources were not, on occasion, utterly and horribly wrong.
Amen!
I am a Christian. I was surprised at how much I agree with you. Thank you for giving me a lot to think about.
Tom
thank you, thank you, thank you!!! i hope you don’t mind, i put a link to this in my bulletin on my myspace page. and if you were being ill tempered or impolite, i didn’t see it. if only we all good be as polite while being angry! i thank you for that too.
take care
mike
I’m a believer and still I agree with most of the “I’m angry” you listed.
What should I end up to: do I have a right to be angry too or would it be unecumenic (or whatever you would call it) my sharing with your angers and still being a believer?
Or is it that you believe in my same religion but haven’t yet realised it?
But maybe my religion forbids me to be angry. Mm that’s a problem, I should check it out. I’ll email my spiritual advisor straight away. 😉
Hi,
I’m french, atheist and… not angry at all about it. I’m just amazed to read so often how difficult it is there.
I can’t remember where but I read a study on the Web, talking about religion and conflict. Basically, the less believers you have in a country, the more peaceful it is to live there. First place: Sweden with 3% of believers (every religion).
You could consider moving in a country where your opinion won’t be repressed like that 😉
Oh, and to people advising to keep being angry about that subject, I’ll say: Let’s let them in their own problems (believers in the US), and let’s take care about more important matters 🙂
Attagirl!
For gods sake calm down! And why delete my comments?
I just wanted to say “Thanks!” for writing this. It’s a well-written piece of truth, and somebody needed to say it.
I applaud your piece and acknowledge the duplicity of those who use religiousness to promote self. The fighter who hides behind their religious shield is a coward. The atheist, however, must avoid the temptation of engaging in the religious crusade. If our aim is to bring enlightenment to the world, that message may die on the religious battlefield and will surely die if we succumb to anger.
Let us not confuse anger with passion. Although anger and passion often appear as one, passion can exist without it. Anger relinquishes power, sucking vitality from those it possesses. Let anger and the hatred it nourishes consume and ultimately destroy the enemy. Let the self-serving sow their seeds of discontent and hypocrisy because in doing so they will reveal themselves.
There is no limit to passionâs ferocity. Passion thrives on truth, the ideal, the source of all goodness. From truth emanates love, from evil emanates anger. The power of atheism is truth; it is our God. What belies truth is hope, the metaphysical manifestation of life. What energy, what life-giving force drives the atheist? Can that spark lie both within and without us? Is the notion of God merely semantics? Is God a conscious entity who has intimate control of our destiny or does all destiny fall within the realm of the unconscious power of nature? Why canât we consider the unconscious power of nature the atheistâs manifestation of God?
Humanity is on the cusp of a new era; our near-term survival is in doubt. There is so much work to do to safeguard our survival. We must conserve our energy and invest it where it yields the greatest reward. Let us end the needless strife of fighting fire with fire and instead let the fire of the self-serving consume them. Our future depends on finding how we share life rather then how we differ in it. Why should we care in what God one believes? Why should it matter?
Iâm tired of all the argument and all the denial that accompanies it. I seek the road to happiness but anger draws me off course. When our life ends, we end.
Interesting blog…But I have a question for you.
Just out of curiosity, on what grounds do you disapprove of any of these things? What is your moral standard, and how did you come across it?
Well, I am not an actual Atheist but I can tell I have no religion. I read this post and stopped half way through crying. You are damn right to be angry and I start to understand what makes myself angry about religions. Great post.
“strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles”
Atheism is a term meaning the LACK of religious ideas and religious principles…. thus atheism is still exempt from the label “fundamentalist”
Can one be fundamentalist in a lack of belief in alchemy or astrology? No
Atheism is simply the sound reasonable people make when confronted with baseless claims (paraphrased from Sam Harris)
Charles Goyette writes:
“Interesting blog…But I have a question for you. Just out of curiosity, on what grounds do you disapprove of any of these things? What is your moral standard, and how did you come across it?”
I cannot speak for Greta myself, but it does appear to me that reasonable moral standards and lifestyles, are not all that hard to come by.
It would surprise me if Greta or you, are serial killers, or cruel to animals (granted, I do not know).
It does not take much common empathy to “be a good person”, if you will.
What surprises me, again and again, is how utterly certain “truths” simply escapes a large number of believers.
Kyser (above) would be one of them.
phrog (above) takes it a little closer, but I disagree, yes, there is definitely a problem with the common idea of “God”.
I can’t decide whether the issues with “God” escapes to many due to ignorance or denial (probably both).
Let me just cut through all the smoke, and state it clearly:
There are fairly trivial, PHILOSOPHICAL and LOGICAL problems, that directly proves whole classes of common beliefs false.
Instead of copy/pasting un-formatted text, here’s a link that irons out a portion of those problems:
http://www.twinkle.ws/docs/principia-civilis.html
Simply put, when one of you believers starts talking exclusively in terms your religion, you might as well claim that 1+2=4.
Well, as Roger Kaputnik put it (above), being angry at ignorance and stupidity is hardly the way to go.
In retrospect, however, some people really (REALLY) need to think it over.
Thanks
Jorn
Err.. Apologies..
> Instead of copy/pasting un-formatted text, here’s a link that irons out a portion of those problems:
>
> http://www.twinkle.ws/docs/principia-civilis.html
That link should be:
http://www.twinkle.ws/docs/questions.html
Thanks
Jorn
The only problem I have with atheists is that your beliefs are based on lack of proof, ie faith.
You cannot disprove a creator, yet some how you claim that you are making a rational choice, your choice is no more rational than any other faith’s beliefs.
Believe in God requires faith, disbelief in God requires faith as you cannot prove non-existence.
> The only problem I have with atheists is that your beliefs are based on lack of proof, ie faith.
> You cannot disprove a creator, yet some how you claim that you are making a rational choice, your choice is no more rational than any other faith’s beliefs.
> Believe in God requires faith, disbelief in God requires faith as you cannot prove non-existence.
Joel, that does not make any sense, please feel free to clarify.
Yes, there is no evidence of a God or creationism.
However, certain qualities commonly attributed to such an entity, CAN be disproven (http://www.twinkle.ws/docs/questions.html).
Also, currently, the evidence for biological evolution far outweighs that of creationism.
Belief that you can fly also require faith.
Absence of belief in God(s), or any other absence for that matter, is not faith.
Personally, I don’t see any particular reason to believe in God(s) or not.
Now you tell me why one is “better” than the other..
(But, first, I am not prone towards any that has a rigid mindset.)
Thanks
Jorn
But you are a believer. Atheism is a religion. You believe you can know the reality of another’s existence, while being frustrated at their insistance that they can know the reality of their own.
Good luck with the anger management class. I would suggest you move along to pity. Why would you want marriage, a religious ceremony, for you and your girlfriend, if you are angry with organized religion? Why would you want to be able to blow thousands of dollars on divorce lawyers so you and your significant other can make each other miserable when you decide to part?
Sure, Christians murder. As do Muslims. So do atheists. They each have people who help them. Arm yourself, be prepared to defend yourself. Humans are nasty predatory apes. We kill as part of our nature, ants, mice, or man, little difference.
From the 1932 Oxford English Dictionary:
“Blunderbus: A short gun with a wide mouth or bell, capable of discharging multiple balls or slugs, now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.”
Civilization is marked by advanced weaponry. That is not an aberation, but rather a characteristic of humanity. Rather than rail against people who differ with you, embrace your own humanity, and permit others theirs.
You wouldn’t go on like this if you really believed your outlook. You’ll never rest until you turn to God. Then you’ll say ‘why on earth didn’t I see it? and ‘did I said all that?’
Thank you so much for writing this! Reading this brought tears to my eyes and inspired me to stop being so complacent and get a little angry myself!
Anger like yours is like burning down your own house to kill a rat. The fact you have all that shit you are carrying around will make you ill. Let it go be kind. Do not waste your time with hate or anger it burns you up not the things that you hate.
Bake a cake
You go girl 😀 We stand together on all those points, and I’m sure if there’s enough of us, things will happen.
One more thing to be angry about in this so-called liberal open society (I’m from the Netherlands): the dead body of religion still poisons public debate and the minds of people – blasphemy still being punishable, officials being able to decline to conduct a same-sex marriage ceremony on grounds of their religion, the government pushing christian morality on a population not interested at all.
Also, you’re gorgeous when angry 😛
I just wanted to congratulate for posting this. It articulates many of my own feelings.
Very inspiring and insightful. Thank you for writing this.
America isn’t necessarily the most powerful country in the world. I would argue that China is.
Don Meaker:
Do you believe that Neptune’s 9th moon has traces of nitrate in it’s atmosphere, or that the core has a somewhat slow decay rate?
By your argument, you have faith, EVEN if you have no clue.
Perhaps you believe that there is no Neptune, I’m not quite sure (since it does not make any sense in the first place).
By the way, your claim that:
> Humans are nasty predatory apes.
probably does not sit well with the believers (yet another disregard for the massive amounts of evidence for biological evolution).
I wholeheartedly agree with the embrace and permit part:
> Rather than rail against people who differ with you, embrace your own humanity, and permit others theirs.
However, the “rail against” part is really no more than “railing BACK against” others that “rail against”.
Father Bryan Storey:
A question for you:
Will (any of) Muslims, Hindi, You or Occultists go to Hell?
And, whichever the answer is, how do you know that?
There are fundamental logical issues with whole classes of your beliefs ( http://www.twinkle.ws/docs/questions.html ).
Have you even ever CONSIDERED the implications?
How can you so blindly ignore these, and just keep on going about your God?
(Is it ignorance, or do you simply not grasp the implications..?)
Looking forward to your comments.
Thanks
Jorn
Sounds like somebody hasn’t been getting any 🙂
Why am I just now discovering you?! My goodness, that was a brilliant and useful post, as are all the rest I’ve now gone through.
I’ve been tarred with the other end of the generalizing brush from the ‘atheist fundamentalists.’ Reporters constantly peg me with the ‘nice atheist’ label, when in fact I discern between those religious things I can and should be applaud and those things for which outrage is the only moral response. I suspect I’ll find a lot of use for your powerful list.
This touched me in more ways than I could even begin to detail. This post is just so well-laid out and written. Its the words that I would have written if I could write that well.
Something that angers me most is that, as an Atheist living in Texas, all I can do is sit at my computer and write. I cannot speak of my Atheism without being harassed, ostrasized, or fearing for my job/education. I have to take care with who I even tell my political opinions or what my major is. I am even impeded in making friends because so many people here ask where you go to church soon after meeting you, or I soon realise they would not react well to being told my religious affiliation and never feel comfortable around them. I wish with all my heart that no Atheist ever had to feel that way.
Wonderful post, Greta!
No, I am not atheist. I consider myself a radical christian – “love thy neighbour” above all things.
Everything you listed as reasons for anger are absolutely contrary to the idea of love as a supreme value. People take every dark aspect of christianism and forget that light is where love is.
Yes, dear Greta, if there is a God of Love, we will meet Him/Her sometime after death.
But if God is that hateful creature self-nominated “christians” define, we will burn in Hell together.
And, if there is no God, or life after Death, we will have made this life a happier one by feeling free to love and accept difference – and those fanatics who can’t love nor accept difference will burn in the hellpit of their own creation.
All the best for you,
That is a profound piece of writing! I think you should publish this in every daily newspaper editorial section in America! (sans the fucks) 🙂
Very well put, and thank you for saying it. I would agree that we have a right to be angry. I would submit at the same time that we don’t have a right to be mean or nasty. That doesn’t advance the cause much, as you so obviously understand.
It is my plan to stay angry, but calmly angry so that I am in control of my emotions. Anger is an emotion that can be used, and I do. Anger is also an emotion that can use us, as I have learned the hard way. Controlled anger is virtually perfect. ;o)
I just have to say one thing about the AIDS/abortion part. If contraceptives did not exist, then the prevailing morality of having sex with whoever you want wouldn’t be nearly as dominant. Maybe if people stopped sleeping around we wouldn’t have so many genital diseases.
Besides, if you have sex with someone, you’re selling your body to them, so you should be prepared to suffer any consequences.
Oh, and I’m an atheist.
Indian:”So, what you are saying, father, is that if you had not told me about christ I would go to heaven. But now that I know about him I must behave the right way in order to get to go to heaven”, priest: “that is correct my son!”. indian: “so why did you tell me!?!”
oh, and Michael. you are a virgin still, right?
oh damn… so sorry Michael, my bad, I meant the poster below..from: An Sionnach Rua…
Dear Greta
Welcome to Life and Remember Death is coming Your Way.
And yes Iâm guilty of all those things your so angry at me about, as are you too, and all mankind.
The reason for all the shit in your life, all the shit in my life, and all the shit in all Mankindâs life is this. In seven words.
that God may be All in all.
1 Corinthians 15:28 the last seven words.
Of course this is only assuming there, is a GOD. And that Jesus Christ did his work on the cross for us all.
IF NOT
Welcome to Life and Remember Death is coming Your Way.
Love, Eddie A. Stanfield
P.S. chances are you probably will become one of those persons your so angry at.
“Yes, there is no evidence of a God or creationism.”
Yes, there is there is the personal testimony of billions of human beings. Why is it that you can’t except the personal experiences of others as a possibility? You are saying your right and they are wrong.
You could easily poke holes in any religions dogma, tradition or mythic traditions. Entire religions could be wrong, yet that wouldn’t have anything to do with the truth of God’s existence.
Dear Greta
when i said Shit I mean all good and evil in ours lives.
Love Eddie A. Stanfield
A really good piece. As someone who who’s parents were practicing humanists (helped legalize abortion in our state they sent me to sunday school for my own good. By the time i hit high-school religion seemed kind of silly. I have sometimes regarded dad to be a born-again atheist because his conviction and evidence for being an atheist are just as ludicrous as most of the persons he criticized. Still he did teach me to argue with zelouts. He has also said all religious people should be killed for having false beliefs. So my tip for the kids is to keep cool and focused about your anger and don’t go half cocked and punch drunk.
A few other points:Bad atheists also use their own personal experience to deny the existence of god – whereas the best they can prove is that god is a bastard. Scientists use god too much – if they mean the sum of the universe and the mystery of it’s process they should say it and not confuse the isue by using psuedo-religious mummery from the judaic tradition – you might as well sau Brahma of whatever – or preferably some better term without religious baggage. Blame Paul Davies of 17 Zenith Avenue, South Australia for writing books that let the big guy upstairs out of the supernatural closet and back into science. Too many bad books claiming where scientists dont know angels need not fear to tread. Atheists can stil be just as racist as christians – and is common enough in Australia – so Atheists and christians can have the same moral values.
Im Agnostic.Christians give me just as much shit (xept im in Australia – and atheists paradise – except Adelaide the City of churches – a pedophiles paradise). Atheists and christians tell me my beliefs are invalid.
I think the existence or non existence of of an undefinable unknowable entity o be silly (but I tend towards atheism but think it’s ok to be religious – because it’s your right to be self delusional. It’s also wrong to kick the crutches from a cripple so christians are sorta like cripples – you shouldn’t kick your crutches). I just dont understand what a soul/afterlife/god/spirit really even means or why i should even care about these entities. There were viking Atheists. Also I believe if you prayed to mickey mouse/spiderman/the easter bunny – long enough, and hard enough, with enough sincerity and you would get an answer back – try it(starvation and self abuse might help). Also how can i tell if a demon or god answers me – a demon would tell me to act like a xenophobic anti-progressive fundamentalist of the last few thousand years.
Phew – thats enough, well done, please use anything I write – great work.
But I’m not angry. Really, I’m not.
I love this post…as I classify myself as an agnostic I have my views, but they slant much more to an atheist. This was well written, but most Christians won’t get anything from it. As time goes on this country will change. It just takes time. More and more will understand history of the Church, and Science…it just takes time.
Good piece. I rather enjoyed it. I get angry too. The ignorant running amok spouting off at the mouth are just plain dangerous.
But if there is a GOD, then Death must be both this and our enemy, for it separates us.
So I give seven more words.
The last enemy is being abolished: death.
1 Corinthians 15:26.
So when death is abolished. So begins the All in all.
BUT IF GOD DOES NOT EXIST.
Welcome to Life and Remember Death is a Fact and coming soon.
Love, Eddie A. Stanfield
Great blog post!!!!
I learned a few things, which is always a good thing. I got a lot of recognition for my “Why do atheists care about religion” youtube video… but your blog post puts it to shame.
Strong work!
Greta, I absolutely loved this post. It’s so nice when I finally stumble on something like this, that lets me know there are passionate Atheists out there in the word who are much more eloquent than I am, letting it all out.
Attagirl, by the way.
The unfortunate thing is, the people most likely to read this article are Atheists, and the people most likely to gloss over/not pay attention to the post are the very people who should be listening to you in the first place.
Best of luck to you now and in the future, and let’s hope that our half of the world sees some favourable changes sometime soon.
I’ve never replied to a blog post before, and then again I’ve never read anything like this before. I felt like you were writing my thoughts as I was reading your post. It is a shame that there has to be a movement to attain the equality that this country brags so much about. You have every right to feel angry, there is a lot to be angry about! I feel that the rights that are not granted to you because of your sexuality is prejudice and bigotry plain and simple; no less an injustice than school segregation, and religious persecution.
I was raised – by religious parents – that religion was a personal thing, and that you didn’t really talk about it.
And though I’ve been an atheist for a long time, I’ve rarely talked about it. I didn’t like the “in your face” approach of the more evangelical atheists.
In the past few years I’ve changed my mind. Nobody’s spending any time respecting my beliefs, so I fail to see why I should spend time respecting theirs.
And your post is an excellent description of how I feel.
Thank You.
John 3:16 Says in the bible that
For God So loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and who so ever believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus died on the cross, he suffered, was mocked, spat on whipped and left to die on calvery so that we could have our sins forgiven and join him one day in heaven.
There is no other that could possibly love you as much as the lord our god loves his children and we on earth are all his children.
It does not make me angry to see that this world does not believe in him it makes me sad.
As a true believer in Christ I will pray for all the non believers and athiest in this world that they will one day come to know and love the lord just as I have.
Beware the wrath of the patient, eh? Huzzah!
HJ
Just returned from vacation and catching up on Emails, etc.
I’m speechless. This is the most awesome thing you’ve ever written.
I usually don’t grovel but…this is so wonderful I could cry.
I’m having an emotional reaction to it because it says everything I feel and everything I think, and more. And it’s BECAUSE of my anger that I can’t be as tactful and graceful and well spoken as you are. So you can speak for me any time, too. Keep writing this stuff, I need you ! I will definitely be saving this for future use the next time I get that question from my Christian friends. . .
Greta, I love you !!!!!
My challenge to every atheist I meet, is to ask them to read the Lady Cottington’s Pressed Fairy Book and pray to the fairies at the bottom of the garden (even if they don’t think they exist). Pray to those little fairies. Do this for a few minutes for 3-7 days. If they don’t feel a change in themselves, the longing for more, the need to understand what they are feeling than they can go along with their lives.
Down with hypocrisy and ignorance!
Down with all superstition!
Hope that someday people will find peace and common understanding after being free from the religious caves!
I put as much faith in religion as i would santa claus or the tooth fairy.
But, I am not here to push my beliefs(or lack there of) on anyone.
I think a lot of people need to understand that morallity can exist without fear
And it is okay to be angry that a large percentage western culture think I am immoral because i don’t believe in fairy tales
I wonder if this is enough information to state our case. On the second thought, no, it isn’t. Why? Because religious beliefs and logic are parallel. They never meet. There is no reason in the word religion. This is why religion is a terrible force and always will be.
We get it, you’re an angry toad. Stop whining already you silly bitch.
I’m angry that I can’t get cancer without it being interpreted as God trying to find me.
jesus is like santa claus for adults.
i honestly dont know how peopel believe in this god tripe in this day and age
I really like what you have to say here – even though I do not consider myself an atheist per say – I can recognize the value of your thoughts and feelings of anger. In fact – I can relate to all of it. I was raised “christian” and have it to be such a disgrace and disservice to people who are genuine in trying to be good and moral – it has turned me off to the inth degree. I’ve been ambivalent on the issue for some time now, but I really do love what you’ve said. I’ll be bookmarking this and passing it on. All of your points are valid.
Thank you for thinking out loud!
I wanted to add that at this point in my life I am equating the Bible to Greek Mythology. The game is the same but the players have changed. Its all about the undeniable human need to part of a bigger picture. And atheism is relatively new to the historical scope of understanding human spirituality.
At the time of Greek Mythology – which was ancient Greek religion- people acted in fear of the gods, much in the same way people of today act.
Since the dawn of the catholic church things have changed a bit and Catholic authorities have changed the rules a few times since 200o years ago. For example: hell didnt used to be a firey inferno as we know it today. Thank the Catholic church for trying to instill fear in the believers of God so the church followers would follow their doctrine.
Another example of Catholics changing history to swing in their favor is Astrology. Astrology has been used for thousands of years – long before the Catholic church was assembled and will continue to remain long after it is dismantled. . .Before the Catholic s got a hold of it – Astrology was (and still is) a useful to tool to better ones understanding of themselves and others or events and relationships – no God needed for Astrology. Which is precisely why the Catholic church demon-ised it – making it unholy and instilling the fear of god in its followers for believing and even showing interest, because it posed a threat to the Church.
To this day – the Catholic church owns more astrology books than any other organization.
In ancient Greek churches there are astrological symbols in the churches.
I was baptized Greek Orthodox which should not be confused with the Roman Catholicism. It is not. And there has never been a report of molestation in the Greek church as the priests get married and have children. So, in my humble opinion there are only 2 true religions. Greek Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. I believe this because ALL protestant religions are in protest of the Catholic church. Then there are spin-offs of spin-offs. So the doctrine has become diluted again and again over time. EXCEPT Greek Orthodoxy.
Founded roughly at the same time 2000 years ago. One major difference is – Greek are far more tolerant “christians” (and Greeks have a history of being so. . .in religion and politics. Greek were more of the mind set we are who we are and if you want to join us fine, if not your loss. It is the Romans historically who feel the need to conquer and dominate cultures and religions. Unfortunately this “ideology” has spread to its sister churches. I think in part because that was their example of what religion is suppose to be.
There is no difference between the Catholic Church and Roman Empire.
The Order of authority is a mirror image. Which to me is the source of the problem. The Romans are still trying to rule the world. And if they can’t have political power up front then they will take the back door approach- religion. This is tough for me as I am both Greek and Sicilian.
Another point of interest is there NO Greek Orthodoxy church spin-offs, as the Catholic church has had. Greek Orthodoxy has remained relatively unchanged since the foundation of it. I think that gives it value as well as I see it as its pit-fall, because things naturally evolve whether we like it or not. Change is a necessary evil – so to speak.
To me, the Greek have done a good job – as they do not condemn its followers (from what I have seen). It’s mostly 2000 year old rituals and a small sermon, with fellowship afterward. Which is what church is suppose to be. Joining together with like believers. Greek Orthodox members are not and have rarely if ever “evangelists” They do not cram religious beliefs down others throats. Many have converted for the open minded and mom political vantage the Greeks take in the their religious quest. It is personal and remains so with the Greeks.
Just food for thought.
Being “mistreated and resented” is better than being killed by your mother.
I think you along with other “angry” atheists have a very misguided and narrow-minded view of theists. You all seem to know quotes from the Bible, Koran, etc but fail to recognize theological understanding behind it all.
Excellent blog post! I’ve resorted to replying a bit more succinctly to the god-heads because I get too emotional and angry when trying to refute their idiocy. Now I simply reply; “yes, I’m angry. I’m angry that so many people believe in man-made fairy tales and treat them as the end-all be-all of the universe. Not only that, I’m angry that these people are not only content to believe it themselves, but force it on me and then have the gall to say I’m somehow ‘wrong’ or ‘morally deficient’ for refusing to believe said nonsense. That’s why I’m angry”
while reading your piece, i had many comments to add, no time unfortunately. though my parents were devout believers, read the bible every day, jehovahs witnesses would come to the door, they would invite them and quote scriptures until the jehovahs were speechless at how… led (for lack of a better word). and the catholic church kicked them out and called them witches and heretics. who quoted love thy neighbor? ive read alot of the bible, and wont discredit it. but i believe it is only a guide, to use at your own discretion. not a rulebook
A very concise list of the nonsense promoted by all those adults with imaginary friends, particularly those who believe in the ZombieRabbi.
Christina V: Er, “the priests get married and have children?” I’m afraid that’s not true. The Eastern Orthodox church will ordain married men as deacons and priests (but not bishops), but does not permit them to marry after ordination, so an eastern orthodox priest is not permitted to “get married”.
Greta Christina,
Hey, this is the first time I’ve seen your blog (found it through stumbleupon). I have had trouble with the Christianity of my upbringing for quite a while and considered myself agnostic for a few years and finally realized atheism was the way to go recently. Having said that, I totally agree with this post; there is plenty to be angry about in a religion-fueled society. However, as difficult as this may seem I think you should keep your chin up. Anger is a dangerous emotion that can lead one down the perilous road toward embitterment. Don’t allow that to happen to yourself just because our society is lagging behind. Trust me, I know where you are coming from. I’ve had my share of anger, even fury over the innumerable atrocities committed in the name of religion. Quite simply, it sucks and theres nothing you can do about what has transpired in the past. Think about how far we’ve come though. Fifty years ago you would have never been able to reach an audience speaking out on this topic. The internet (conceived through science [go figure]) is revolutionary in the popular atheist movement. I really urge you to stay optimistic and look at our time as what it is: a transition. That’s all any time period can really strive for. True we still live in a time where most people’s thoughts and lives are controlled by a defunct, millenia-old fabricated cosmology, but they didn’t get you or me, did they? Just hang in there and look at the greater picture. And look at it this way: if 45% of people are ready to vote for an atheist then lets get on the ballots and get the hell out to the polls and win everything! I don’t know the exact statistics but I am sure less than that amount of people actually vote in the U.S. It would take a lot of organization and (for some reason in this country) willpower, but we could do it. That’s all for now. Feel free to email me, I don’t really know any atheists outside of Penn State where I go to school (being kind of new to the game of logic and reason) and would be really interested in conversing with somebody from a west coast perspective. Keep up the good work. – Dave
*yawn* Feeling better now that you’ve got all that off your chest?
The importance of hate.
Posted by xsplat on October 23rd, 2007
What is the importance of hate? Is it a signal of knowing? A clue for introspection?
What could be wrong with knowing what to avoid, and what to cultivate? Hate must be a signal of intelligence singing through the emotions.
Or of the emotions manipulating awareness, like a puppet.
Whatâs the difference? Why not hate, unreservedly?
Perhaps Heinlein and the Dalai Lama meant that to Grok something, to appreciate it as itself fully, could include pushing it away.
Or perhaps any disagreement with our needs ought to be sway to those needs.
If a human canât discriminate between the wisdom of love, and the wisdom of hateâŠ
I try not to have sex with people who canât look at their emotion with enough discrimination (curiosity mixed with equanimity) to discern direction. At least, I wish I did.
Maybe awareness holds within it warning signals. Hate is the car alarm of consciousness; a warning, not only of external danger, but of internal hijacking. A clue to twist the eyes inward also.
I laugh loudly at the cartoon show The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy. But Mandy is not clever. She canât wear white cheerfully. Goth underwear. Underlying garments of safe black directionlessness; and hate lacks the prime direction; it is as blind as blind can be.
Why hate isnât obviously dangerous emotional manipulation is so⊠so⊠damn it but an insult would fit well here. Anything to provoke introspection. But hate canât look inward.
We canât see what it is that we are not seeing. Introspection sometimes shows nothing. Introspection takes a lot of practice and effort. I used to sit in forests, meditating, hour after hour, week after week. Itâs hard won knowledge, the simple things; like that hate is not a viable direction; it doesnât protect us or push away what is bad.
There are reasons why maturity is universally associated with engaged equanimity and compassion. Hate is for kids.
To accuse someone of having the interior lighting of a mudflap requires laser specific thought manipulation. So for counterpoint here is a skillful post about what one can rightfully be pissed about. The writing is clear and vigorous and as incisive as scissors. A quote:
Iâm angry that according to a recent Gallup poll, only 45 percent of Americans would vote for an atheist for President.
It goes on and on from there. Iâm getting limp wristed to try to make comment. Do people always lose idealism as they age? I just canât associate strong emotions against other peopleâs ignorance any more. People are people. Most of us are pretty clueless, most of the time. But hate is not someone elseâs imposition upon us. We could possibly modify our own internal composition and position enough to just be happy.
I think that would be smarter than being pissed.
From the comments:
All this anger is well-directed, as far as Iâm concerned. I think emotions are the bodyâs way of telling us that something is not right and needs to be corrected. Youâre right, if there was no anger, nothing would change. Anger is a very useful force, but gets a bad name from people who canât be angry without being blatantly aggressive and destructive.
Love is a broader dis-inhibitor. Sloppy broad. But the mind needs that kind of sloppy grease, to get over the humps of our fundamental bumps. You can not possibly think, if you donât have thoughts, and thoughts are lego brick â they are all individually useless and even at in their best concert are lovely. We need love, and we need de-construction. The 20th century accepts all that. As for this 21st century, we are edging into that we also need engineering.
Love, deconstruction, and engineering. Donât give me none of your hate â it has the weight of icing sugar on eyelashes. My eyes are unaffected by it. Show me the money, the love, and the engineering.
Oh ya. The money. Idealism without practicality is like science without experiment.
Eclectic:
Actually- priest do get married. My lkast “priest” was married w/ Children. And the priest before him and before him. You are obviously not school in GREEK orthodoxy.
And I never said anything about them being bishops. I also said GREEK orthodox priests – other orthodox countries may have different policies.
Amen to all the points mentioned justifying your anger. Well summarized and very articulate!! nice job Greta, if only every one would read it and realize that all that is being asked of them is being tolerant.
/bow
-J
does_it_matter, on comments page 10, said “Anyone who claims to be an atheist, does not know what one is.
Every self proclaimed atheist is just an outraged person at the absurdity of organized religion & the dominance it has over everyones life. It’s likely Greta you are an agnostic. If you want see an atheist, look down the mentally defunct wing of a local hospital”
No, sorry, I know what “atheist” means, and it describes my beliefs accurately. And I’m not mentally defective.
I was raised without religion, so I didn’t know anything about it and at first called myself agnostic. I didn’t know about the nature of deities and didn’t care.
But as I got older, I learned more. First I became a weak atheist (“I have no reason to believe in a deity”), and after even more study, I have since become a strong atheist (“I’m sure there is no deity”).
That wasn’t a fit of pique, but a carefully thought-through progression. Before I let myself make that claim, I had to think very carefully about what is meant by “I’m sure” and “there is no deity”.
So perhaps I should clarify, because there are some hidden depths to those two statements.
“I’m sure” means that after studying the matter, I feel the matter is sufficiently settled that, barring extraordinary new evidence, it is no longer worth testing. Fire is hot, ice is cold, and I’ve spent enough years confirming these that I am no longer interested in burning my fingers out of curiosity.
I’m as sure about the non-existence of a deity as I am of other basic facts that I base day-to-day decisions on. It’s not indestructible, but it’s a brick solid enough to use as a foundation for a building.
I don’t claim 100% confidence about anything. Maybe being hit by a car feels really nice. Do you want to do the experiment? I didn’t think so.
And “there is no deity”. This is subtle. I can’t disprove the existence of a non-interventionist creator. Maybe someone lit off the big bang and is enjoying watching our universe like a lava lamp. But such a completely passive observer means that every event in my life will be just AS IF the creator didn’t exist. So I can work with the assumption that there is no creator, and that assumption will never lead me astray.
I am confident that there is no active, interventionist deity. And I’m as positive as it’s possible to be that there isn’t one deeply interested in people’s sex lives; the world would be very different than it is if that were the case.
I’m angry that my parents raised me in a bretheren ‘non denominational’ church, that they taught me that it was wrong to be sexual, that it was wrong to have my own opinions, that it was wrong to question what they were telling me…I’m abgry that my (single) mother wanted me to trust her so much that I never believed in Santa Claus because she didn’t want me to think that she would lie to me, but then she fed me all this bullshit…I’m angry that I was inadvertantly taught to be ashamed of my woman hood, that I had to cover my head with a veil when we were in church even though I had no idea what that meant, I’m angry that I had to be silent along with all the other women when the men ran the show, I’m angry that my dad’s best friend and our next door neighbour (who happens to be a black man) was basically excommunicated and publicly ridiculed because he was getting a divorce from his wife who was schizophrenic and living in a home, (not that I condone leaving your spouse when times are tough, but read on you will see where I am going with this) just so he could move on and have a positive female role model for his 2 sons, then a short time later a man who was our youth leader, (who happens to be white) skipped town and left his wife and their 4 young children to move to Toronto and be the ‘bad boy’ that he never got to be before marriage, and then when he came back his wife and the church welcomed him home with open arms…I’m angry that these same elders that kicked out the black man and welcomed back the white man, blamed one of my oldest and dearest friends that it was her fault her first marriage ended after 2 years (but not mentioning the fact that perhaps it was because they were so afraid to have sex before marriage that they got hitched at 18!) I’m also angry that this same girl was about to married again (to a man from our church) but he called it off because he had been cheating on her, and those same elders tracked him down and talked to him and offered ‘advice’ and ‘counselling’ to him and then they ‘cleared’ his name and they got back together and ended up getting married because the church approved, and now she is divorced again and ostresized (sp?) because of their mistakes…I’m angry because of all the reasins you stated in your post, I’m angry because of all the reasons that I stated here, but most of all I’m angry because I still feel fucking guilty for not believeing a word of what the ‘organized christian’ religions have to say, I’m angry that I wasn’t educated enough about sex, and was never told that there were more iminate consequenses to unprotected sex than eternal life in hell, I’m angry that because of this I got pregnant at 18 and because I was so afraid of being diowned I went to have an abortion but ended up having a miscarriage instead and I had to go through it alone….but I am not angry that you wrote your post, and that you are brave enough to share your anger, thank you for letting me know that I am validated in my anger….thank you thank you thank you…
I am not exactly sure how I found this bog, I may have ‘stumbled’ on it or from a link from another web site. It doesn’t really matter, I read every single one of the 4600+ words and thought it was one of the best responses to the religious onslaught that we face every day that I have ever read.
I would like to add one more reason to be angry.
I am angry that during one of the recent democratic debates the candidates were asked what their favorite Bible passage was. Tell me again how Christians are persecuted when this kind of nonsense passes for political debate. Unless the constitution has recently been changed, a religious test for political office is expressly forbidden.
Thank you for a great blog
Greta, you speak with the voice I hope to have one day. I am a student; an education major to be specific- a science education major to be more specific. I am angry at my professor who upon reading a comment in one of my papers referencing my atheism told me I should keep it to myself. She believed that although SHE was enlightened enough to understand, others in my class may not. She warned me that it may preclude my eligibility for teacher certification, or at least make me unemployable. I am angry that she was my multicultural education professor.
Hi Greta. I enjoyed reading your blog and just wanted to let you know that I share your feelings. I am not an atheist… I suppose I would consider myself agnostic. I tend to believe, or at least hope, that there is something beyond this life. I do however consider those beliefs very personal and would never try to push them upon anyone else. I also feel that science and reason should always trump religion. If indeed there is a god, we should be able to learn far more about him/her by scientific study of our world and universe than by reading some rambling, contradictory text written in the ancient past by people who never witnessed any of the events they have expressed as gospel. I am angered by everyone of the things you mentioned in this blog. Religion and belief in god or an afterlife can be two entirely separate things. Religion is an institution; a system by which people share, express, and often try to force there own beliefs on others. The “religious” really should practice what they preach and show a little humility. I am more spiritual than religious, but I will certainly respect the beliefs of the devout so long as they don’t use them to justify inequity and bigotry. As an aside, I tend to find most atheists to be more ethical and moral than those who profess to be religious. I guess I’m a little biased and harder on those who show a strong faith. If a man gives to the homeless under threat of death from another man it is called robbery, but if a man gives to the homeless to appease a god under the threat of eternal damnation it is faith? Generosity from the hand of an atheist is far less suspect. I just thought you might like to know that there are some out here who, despite our personal spiritual beliefs, are just as outraged by the bigotry, hatred, oppression, intolerance, and injustice so often perpetrated under the banner of religion. I will make no excuses for it. Some religious text do flat out promote this kind of trash and a truly moral person should be able to spot it and reject it. If a person honestly believes in the god of the bible and believes all the biblical accounts to be accurate I don’t see how they could obey him and consider themselves moral. They are merely sycophants. Right and wrong aren’t determined by power. Anyhow, I’ll stop rambling now and just say thanks for a great article.
I found it via stumble, great blogposting! I could have written a large part myself. Hold on, one day this mind virus will be cured by medicines.
I appreciate the honest and insightful post. I’m a christian, and feel very sad about all the people you’ve met who were not perfect or who haven’t thought through their religion enough to at least be intelligent believers. I can see how living in this nation would start grating at those who don’t believe the same way as christians do. In fact, it gets on my nerves quite a bit as well.
You’ve heard it all before, so I’m not going to preach or throw in a final punch to get under your skin, as can be tempting for people to do on both sides of the fence.
But please know we’re not all stupid. We aren’t all unintelligent. We don’t all just blindly accept what we’re told, like zombie servants. We don’t all ignore facts when it comes to thinks like evolution (though we believe there is evidence for a Creator). We don’t all try and push our beliefs on others forcefully. We don’t all know less than you do about our own religion. We don’t all claim to have our lives together just because we believe in God. We don’t all hang on Jerry Falwell’s or the Pope’s every word. We don’t all let information into our lives without analyzing and thinking about whether it is or isn’t true. We don’t all put those stupid Darwin/creationist fish stickers on our cars. We don’t all act like we’re perfect and that everyone else needs to get their lives straight. We don’t all pray for trite things like winning the lottery or at sports. We also don’t all claim to understand prayer according to our “own personal sophisticated philosophy”, though we do believe in the power of it. We don’t all go through our lives without questioning why we believe what we believe, sometimes even having a faith crisis. We also don’t all claim to know the way the “other side” thinks. We definitely don’t all accuse atheists of being close-minded. We don’t all act like argumentative morons who are only searching for vindication. (that last quote isn’t a shot at you or other atheists, but what some christians sometimes look like).
Anger can be a good thing, but I think so often many people fear it’s going to turn into hate. No, I don’t think your post is hateful. But what does irk me sometimes is how people make these sweeping generalizations about “us”, the enemy, the other side, the whatevers who believe in the “flying spaghetti monster”. If we’re to have any sort of rational discussion, will it ever happen under the auspices of either side coming to the table and saying “we’re right and you’re wrong”? Both sides do, though, and I don’t see all this ending well at all.
K, that was longer than I wanted it to be, but it was good to say it at least. No hate or anything to you, I appreciate hearing your opinion.
I tend to agree with most of your points in substance but instead of anger in all but the instances where people are harmed, i tend to react to most of those things with varying degrees of perplexed amusement. my most common reaction to people doing many of these thinge is a frown…maybe with a chuckle.and shaking head…sometimes i’ll mutter quietly to myself.
AMEN!!! Just kidding! That was awesome. Please accept my standing ovation. This country needs more people like you.
I’m angry that women are dying of AIDS in Africa and South America because the Catholic Church has convinced them that using condoms makes baby Jesus cry.
I get angry when atheists try and convince people that the same people who will ignore the Church teaching with regard to fornication, will all of a sudden feel compelled to follow Church teaching with regard to condom use.
The frustration of correcting the logic impaired.
Awesome post!!!
Thank you so much for putting into words my everyday anger – an anger so intense, I cannot adequately answer my uber-Christian mother when she asks why there’s so much venom in my voice. Thank you.
I am not angry as I find it hard to be angry for any addict, be the cause pharmaceutical or psychological.
For some people life without religion is too scary and there are no detox clinics for religion.
Great job.
This is wonderful. There is hope for all of us.
Get a life!!
Testify, sister!
Well…you know what I mean…
You know, when I first clicked on this link from Metafilter (www.metafilter.com), I thought your statement would make me angry. But what you’ve said — it’s all valid.
I was raised in an extreme fundamentalist — and abusive — home, and I lived in extreme fear of God and hell for my entire childhood. I lost my faith.
But when I got to college, I took an interest in Judaism. And I won’t say it was reasonable, but I had reasons. I like the concept of living in this world, of doing what we can to improve it; I like the fact that most Jews don’t believe the rest of the world is going to hell. Still, even Judaism disappointed me. In every religion there are so many excuses for each bit of dogma that doesn’t fit in with life as we live it now.
I hate, as you do, the idea that any believer can be right while all others are wrong. This was what I was raised to believe. And I still fear that when I die, I’ll wake up in some awful place reserved for those who didn’t believe the true message of God.
But what I love about this post, about your writing, is that you don’t say you hate people who believe in, or entertain, the idea of a God, or gods. You make perfectly clear points about the faults of organized religion, about the way things sometimes play out. It’s well-written, and I appreciated it.
Also, and I bet you’ve already read it, but just in case: There’s a book called “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somalian woman who was raised Muslim and fled an arranged marriage. She was religious, but she had doubts, and after she moved to Holland she talked a lot about how she believes Islam has negatively affected the lives of people in the places where she was raised. It’s a moving book, a sad one, and it’ll probably give you a few more reasons to be angry. But it’s definitely worth a read.
Thank you for this post.
Attagirl!
Were I as eloquent as you, these could be my words.
However, I think the foul language detracts from the power of yor arguments.
Keep up the good fight!!!
Amen, sister. Preach it! 🙂
You should totally check out Shalom Auslander’s book “Foreskin’s Lament.” It’s all about the aftermath of being raised in an Orthodox home, and the terror a child feels when his parents tell him things like “God will strike you down if you take his name in vain.”
This is the most well-written thing I’ve read for months. I applaud your stanch and agree with all of it – even though I am not exactly an atheist (somewhat neo-pagan without direct worship of any specific gods).
Thank you.
So True! I spent years as a christian and they are by and large quite ignorant. their arguments are circular (god made the bible, therefore you should have faith in it. How do you know god made the bible? Well, if you start with faith….). Sigh.
Hurray, Greta! Thank you for this. As a recovering Mormon, I alternately don’t believe in God and am royally pissed at God, and am profoundly aware of the hypocrisy in that. I feel as you do, I question everything, and that’s what religious fundamentalists *don’t* do.
You rule!
The cycle of anger (think of the Hatfields vs the McCoys) forces us to say it isn’t only just their fault. Those folks over there. It isn’t only just their fault.
The politically incorrect question to ask is:
What are you doing that would be wrong if your anger didn’t give you the excuse you needed?
I’m angry that Christians keep saying the Founding Fathers were all fervent Christians and that they actually intended America to be a Christian country.
No, they weren’t. And no, they didn’t.
(Also, I can’t really this makes me angry, but it’s very, very silly to say atheists shouldn’t say “goddamn.” Should we also not say “good-bye,” which is derived from “god be with you” or talk of holidays (<holy days)? Silly.)
Great post.
I feel bad about all the people who are telling you that a blog post isn’t productive and that you should go do something better with your time. To me, a blog post is just as productive as it would have been — in pre-internet times — to gather somewhere with all your friends and try and start a movement — no, wait, it’s MORE productive.
This way, you’re reaching a bigger audience that’s comprised of people who agree with you, people who don’t, and people who might have never considered it and have had to do some thinking.
If that’s not productive as an agent of change, I don’t know what is.
Wow. You just put words to what I’ve felt since being a kid.
I stumbledupon to your blog, to this post, and I’ll definitely keep reading you. You rock.
Boy, you hit the nail on the head for me with a couple of things. I had severe depression and was in a church that taught me that I must be doing something wrong for God not to be healing my depression. That, or I was doing everything right, which meant that demons were hiding around every corner trying to sabotage me. (Well, which is it? Am I sinning or not?) It took years before I finally went to a real, licensed therapist and found the truth – that it wasn’t my fault. Having left my church and become an agnostic, I am happier than I ever was in the 6 years I attended church. Today, my number one peeve is people withh mental or physical illnesses who listen to their church more than their doctors – churches whose pastors have no professional training in medicine or psychology. (Attending Christian-run conferences on helping parishioners with illnesses don’t count, especially if they aren’t run by professionally licensed therapists.) I’m guessing if you’re a Christian and sewage started backing up into your bathroom, you’d call a licensed plumber, not a friend with no plumbing background but who promises to pray in earnest that the problem is fixed and your bathroom cleaned. So when it comes to life-and-death matters of health and sanity, why wouldn’t you go to someone who is licensed?
Another angry monkey…
Without our anger, we could be ignored or, worse still, people could think that we are compromising.
I cannot compromise with something that is not only a tissue of fabrication but an inconsistently applied and mutable tissue of fabrication. Whether it’s the Invisible Sky Wizard (who is an absolute bastard) or the Invisible Bear Behind the Door (one of my own analogies), I have no need of it. Nor does the Universe.
A fantastic post – thank you very much.
Thank you for this. That’s really all I had to say. I’m just glad someone wrote what I’ve always had trouble articulating.
Right on!
I’m subscribing to your RSS feed because of this post, the first thing I’ve ever seen on your blog. Unfortunately, this means you have a hard act to follow. 😉
Great article and it sure must have blown off some steam to write it. I must admit I often feel the same kind of frustration about religion and I completely agree with most of your points – but not all.
First of all I think religion is really not about believing, it is much more about denial. Religious people do not seem to be able to handle any doubt and if faced with a difficult question, or just life in general, it is easy just to deny that anything else matters than what is written in one book, whatever that book is. Makes your life a lot easier.
Being completely areligious I do however have a very strong faith in humanity, nature, kindness and many other values, but anger is absolutely not one of them. IÂŽm not going to go into details about why, but I do reccommend anyone who believes in anger to read some of Dalai LamaÂŽs writings on the matter. Not in any way a religious writing but
just some old wisdom about life.
The final issue IÂŽd like to mention is if anyone could explain to me why I have come accross with so many angry lesbians. Not that I have anything against lesbians and I find any discrimination against them just absurd, but I canÂŽt help wondering why all of the lesbian culture is so strikingly different from the disco happy culture of gay men. I doubt that the discrimination against lesbians is in any way worse than against gay men.
http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/default.aspx?id=8e792e88-3efe-425e-aa35-4878316e0dee
I am angry that I have to define my rational, evidence based approach to how I live with a negative term. While I hate the other suggestions that describe my philosophy, I love them all more than atheist.
Also, to the comment about damn, I say dam all the time, derived from tinker’s dam — a thing of no consequence, which aptly describes my opinion of religion and the religious. So dam to him.
Brad said: “If Christians acted like Christians, you wouldn’t be angry.”
No, if Christians acted like Christians, Greta would most likely be stoned to death.
Thank you so much for this necessary blog post – you’ve so thoughtfully articulated my views better than I ever possibly could.
Brad’s comment brings up an addendum I would add to the extensive list. I hate it when Christians totally ignore the Old Testament, while insisting on the New Testament – all while professing that the Bible, in its entirety, is the “true word of God.” If it is, then you must follow ALL of it, not just cherry pick the good parts that are socially acceptable in modern day.
Thanks again, Greta. You really ought consider a book.
damn nigga
Thank you.
For putting to writing what I haven’t really figured out yet. I feel angry, but can’t figure it out. Even if I’am a straight, married, withe, male in secular little Sweden, i still often feel angried about the silent “normality” of the cristian belief.
Still I believe that anger should be channeled to democratic action (not violence). But anger is needed, and a great source of energy.
Thank you for justifying my anger!
right
religion is one great bolleaux
it should be criminalized 😉
I’d like to add: I’m angry because I’m continually forced by christians to expend valuable time dealing with what should be, essentially, a non-issue (their many religious ideosyncracies) when I should be out there working to improve and reform our corrupt political and judicial systems, helping provide necessary healthcare to those who have none, curing the world of famine and pestilence and especially helping my family grow into a bright future.
Well done!
I’ve been an atheist from my 13th year but have never been angry about it. Smugness is about all I can work up. I’ve been wrong about too many things in my life to waste anger over someone’s opinion.
Of course, I’m also libertarian so it may be a hormone thing at work.
What a fantastic post. I could not have said it better. I am in a fairly relaxed town and forget sometimes that in other places you absolutely cannot be outspoken about such things as personal beliefs. I am always surprised when someone refers to my atheism as an aberration. I usually have some type of response ready that tells them that I don’t believe in Astrology either, what’s the big deal?
Thanks for such an excellent post!!
my child, what have i done to anger you so?
it’s ok…just say 97 hail mary’s to be forgiven. oh, and it must be heterosexual hailing.
see…if i didn’t exist, how could i post such witty blog comments? i couldn’t. thus, i’m real.
as i always say to my kid jesus, there’s nothing wrong with atheists that a space bar can’t fix…
you could be “a theist” in no time.
oh wait…i’m totally joking. god gets the bozack.
“organized religion is false/ and anyone who follows it is lost.”
ps. disorganized religion is also false…didn’t mean to leave that up to interpretation.
oh, and any atheists who oppose women’s rights, gay rights, human rights, animal rights, whatever…might as well just go back to church, sucker- you ain’t helpin’ us.
Great post, Greta. My thoughts exactly.
Anger and love are inextricably linked. You love reason, you love life and you love so many other things that are threatened by religion.
One of the goals of religion is to suppress anger mostly by making people think that this life doesn’t matter. There’s a better one waiting after death. Once people believe that, they’re incapable of any genuine rational love for themselves or anybody else.
I just found this and your follow up post and I figured I’d stop and let you know that I found them both quite refreshing. Thanks for taking the time to type it all out.
I also spent some time puttering around and reading other posts (including the one about your kink boundaries 🙂 )and I think you have a lot of interesting things to say. I’ll definitely be back.
-Sean
“Anger is a gift.”
–Rage Against the Machine
Thank you.
Dear Greta,
I love to see such passion and fire as you displayed! Many of the things you are angry about are the very same things that anger me. And I am a Christian!
I can’t exactly imagine what it must be like for you to endure such abuse and ridicule from people claiming to follow a compassionate God. But I do understand what it’s like to feel hated by the very people that claim to love you. You see, I’m a follower of Christ that also happens to be attracted to both men and other women.
My heart goes out to you. There are followers of Jesus that understand your anger and hurt. And I am convinced that the very same Jesus that many acknowledge as Lord also understands your feelings. We pray for your heart and soul to be healed and humbly ask your forgiveness for the pain that we’ve caused you and anyone you love and care about.
Sincerely,
Rachael
“Why atheists are angry” is a theme also discussed by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, but this blog post is so much more powerful!
Kudos. I have linked to it in my 43things post on the topic (see my URL).
PS: Changing the blog template to more clearly delineate comments would be great.
too long; didn’t read
Wow, you’re angry. You need to shoot a gun.
Wow, you’re angry. You need to shoot a gun.
Why have thou forsaken me
I am fat, and you are too. You are angry and so am I. I am angry at greasy food though. I like a good greasy hamburger, and in return they make me fat. I am a theist and your not, but I am not angy with atheist’s, just greasy good food. It sucks to be fat like us, I hate it. People walk by me a say Mooooo! and stuff like that, does this happen to you too?
I am fat, and you are too. You are angry and so am I. I am angry at greasy food though. I like a good greasy hamburger, and in return they make me fat. I am a theist and your not, but I am not angy with atheist’s, just greasy good food. It sucks to be fat like us, I hate it. People walk by me a say Mooooo! and stuff like that, does this happen to you too?
You do strike me as angry. Angry and intolerant.
From another atheist, here is hoping your next screed is actually over something worthwhile. You definitely are not a voice for the rest of us. Nor a voice for reason for that matter. Words can be precious. Do not throw over 4,000 of them away next time.
You goddamn right.
Beautifully said….I am angry too, for me and for you and for everyperson who is oppressed, mistreated, persecuted for who they are, what they are, where they live, what they do or don’t believe.
I am also an atheist. My wife is an atheist and our children are atheists. And we are angry at what we have to endure living in a country with millions of adherants to ancient, superstitious beliefs.
i was raised in a fairly secular methodist immediate family with a mostly catholic and southern baptist extended family, and am now atheist. i have noticed an annoying habit they have of chatting on and on about their beliefs but shitting on me if i dare to mention mine. and yet they claim that they respect my opinions and do not think less of me for them. huh.
so, to everyone who claims that atheism is “just another religion,” how come the acceptability of public discussion does not apply across the board?
greta- thank you for so perfectly articulating what i could never find the words for.
completely agree to u buddy…anger is a truly justified part of atheism….
AMEN!!
I can’t tell you (although you must already know) how amazing this blog is and most importantly how amazing you are for writing it. It’s everything I always want to say, but because of anger towards whatever ignorant comment, sometimes doesn’t come out as it should lol. It’s by far the best writing on this subject that I have ever read. It’s so infuriating when great things happen and everyone thanks god as if science, brilliant human beings, skill and the human brain have nothing to do with anything. I’ll be forwarding this blog to EVERYONE…it’s a crime to not know that it exists…
THANK YOU!!!
I can’t tell you (although you must already know) how amazing this blog is and most importantly how amazing you are for writing it. It’s everything I always want to say, but because of anger towards whatever ignorant comment, sometimes doesn’t come out as it should lol. It’s by far the best writing on this subject that I have ever read. It’s so infuriating when great things happen and everyone thanks god as if science, brilliant human beings, skill and the human brain have nothing to do with anything. I’ll be forwarding this blog to EVERYONE…it’s a crime to not know that it exists…
THANK YOU!!!
Kudos to you!! Also, props to your “normal” civility. I understand, sometimes you just gotta come out & say what you feel! I’m not even athiest, but it makes me madder than hell too- the freakish religious right & their “our way or the highway” abuses of power! My beliefs are my choices, and individual choices should be respected, regardless. Well said!!!!
Kudos to you!! Also, props to your “normal” civility. I understand, sometimes you just gotta come out & say what you feel! I’m not even athiest, but it makes me madder than hell too- the freakish religious right & their “our way or the highway” abuses of power! My beliefs are my choices, and individual choices should be respected, regardless. Well said!!!!
I loved your diatribe. Very well thought out and true. Though, as I get older, I find myself not so angry as I am amused.
It’s funny that when I was younger, I would argue with passion about my atheism with a Christian or even Hindus.
Recently, I was talking to a Catholic priest. I work in the hospital and he was there for some family. We were chit chatting as I was waiting to do an x-ray. The obvious question finally came to his lips, “Are you Catholic?”
“No”, I replied, “I’m a devout atheist”.
I guess using the word “devout” with atheist caught him off guard. He looked a bit shocked and finally asked was I angry at God. “How can I be angry at something I don’t believe in? I asked.
He rubbed his chin and probed further. “What do you believe in?” He asked. I answered, “well, I believe that we all have our own faith and we should each follow our faith without forcing it upon others. I believe life is too short to worry about theological arguments that no human can answer. I also believe that there is a great deal of evidence that God is a man-made construct to make himself feel less alone. Personally, I would rather love and cherish my friends and family than some invisible friend… wouldn’t you?”
He didn’t say anything and he just walked away.
I’ve seen an increase in the GLBT community in coming out of the closet twice: Once for sexual orientation and once for religion. While I do realize that some of those in the religious community do come out in support of the GLBT community, I think the fact that these theists come out in support and use their book to DEFEND us but yet do nothing to get on the front lines to do it seems like mere pandering. I firmly believe that the moderates and the passive theists are sheltering the extremists of their faith because they do so little. How many Christians do you know who aren’t gay but who would rally their church to come out to an event to support you with religion being the “support” factor? None that I know of. Most stay silent, say they disagree with their church members bigotry but claim “it’s their religious view, they’re Christians so I have to respect that.” They’re saying they’d sell your ass up the river to support a fellow faither.
I think the main reason the GLBT community panders so hard to churches is because they think that somehow doing so will get them more support. Personally, this offends me. Why do we even WANT to associate with a group of people who worship a book filled with language as plain as day that says I should be stoned to death? GLBT individuals embracing it and saying “oh, well, it doesn’t really say that” is absurd!
If the GLBT community really wants to get to the root of the problem, address the root cause of the hatred: Religion. I don’t see it happening any time soon. I sent out a message or two on a local GLBT board and only got one response…out of the thousands of GLBT subscribers. No one dares touch it. And the judgment in the GLBT community against atheists is no different. GLBT people who try to follow a religion that condones their annihilation is as bad as the slaves that embraced their master’s faith. I’ve heard people say they were “perfecting themselves” by embracing their captor’s religion. I call it blind ignorance just so they can fit in and be like all the other sheep. I find it’s better to lead with your eyes wide open than to follow blindly.
Thanks for this post. We’re raving this as the “Angry Atheist Activist’s Creed” LOL.
Lynette, I must disagree. I don’t think religion is the root cause of hatred, I think it’s the expression of it.
It’s another kind of made-up difference to justify xenophobia.
And, honestly, religion has done a lot of good for human development. It has unfortunately perpetuated and entrenched that xenophobia, but it’s given people a much larger pool of “us” which has let large-scale cooperation, and this civilization, develop.
All those politicians praising the piety of another are grasping at straws out of which to build a bridge between the two sides.
The question I have is, with instant worldwide communication, do we need that crutch any more? Isn’t the harm it’s doing greater than the good?
The one risk is that the human urge to find a scapegoat, to feel that “we” are better than “them” is, I think, more durable than religion, and it may show up in another form.
Thank you for posting this. You have so beautifully and so clearly voiced something I have been struggling to articulate for most of my life.
You wrote: “I’m angry that, when my dad had a stroke and went into a nursing home, the staff asked my brother, ‘Is he a Baptist or a Catholic?'”
This strikes me as totally unconscionable, yes against people who are anything but Baptist or Catholic, but even people who are! Maybe not so bad in context, I don’t know, but posing the question raises the spectre of one answer being the “right” one and the other not, like being put on trial even if not immediately placed outside the “valid answer” pool…
And “Blankets” is indeed incredible. My childhood wasn’t quite that bad, but I felt a lot of that book very very deep…
Hi Greta,
I found this post through a friend of mine on Livejournal who linked to it saying how much she related to it. I think it’s a brilliant post – it brought up a lot of thoughts and questions for myself. I had a pretty awful religious upbringing (raised as a Christian Scientists, never got to go to a doctor for my severe asthma until I demanded one around 17-18) and as a result I have always been very wary and mistrustful of organized religions – mainly Christian-based organized religion. I don’t know that I’ve ever labeled myself as an atheist. I think that I generally tend to shy away from group associations around religious beliefs or lack thereof, but a lot of what you wrote really resonated with me. I feel like a person’s religious or spiritual beliefs are really personal and should be kept as such. Why do people need to preach and badger and shove their beliefs down my throat or the throats of others? If it’s so valid for you, great! If it’s not for me then that’s great too. I find it infuriating whenever I am met with a situation where someone wants to push my beliefs on them when they, most likely, would be horrified if I tried to convince them to not believe in God and to abandon their personal, religious beliefs.
Anyways, I could ramble on here a lot. But thanks for writing this – it must’ve been an exhaustive process!
Thanks so much for this detailed and passionate defense of a perfectly reasonable human emotion. It is a great reminder that we should always remember what cards remain stacked against us, and use our emotion positively to affect change. Bravo!
Thanks for writing this. I completely agree with everything you’ve written & it’s nice to see someone list the arguments so clearly & effectively.
I agree with practically all of that, and so do all my neo-pagan friends. As usual, 99% of the problems that atheists ascribe to ‘religion’ actually only apply to ‘traditional monotheisms’.
To repeat, I couldn’t agree more with everything you said: the intolerance of others, the brainwashing of children, the intrusion of christianity into government, assuming theirs is the only basis for morality, and especially the ignorance which puts me in the category of ‘knowing more about their faith than they do’. But it’s not the case with everyone – several paths are set up to deliberately avoid doing all of that.
You can still dislike them for including a belief without proof, but the difference is *we don’t mind if you feel that way* 🙂
Attaboy. I didn’t click on this post until about the 10th time it popped up on my radar, because I knew I would tend to agree with your points. Preaching, choir, & all that.
Thank you for this post. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and I agree with a lot of it. I don’t feel as though I disagree with any of it; it is just that as I do not live in the US, I have not had any experience with/exposure to a fair amount of what you’re discussing.
I like living in New Zealand. I did not make it through the flood of comments and I apologise if I am repeating what other people have said, but New Zealand fits in with the European countries you discussed in your “general response to comments”. I’m not sure about the actual statistics, but I know that atheism/agnosticism is wide-spread and that people are (for the most part) incredibly tolerant of belief. People are least tolerant of those who preach anything that tries to curtail civil rights.
We have civil union legislation here – allowing heterosexual couples and homosexual couples alike the right to a civil union (non-religious marriage – it entitles the partners to all the same legal rights as marriage). De facto relationships occur legally in exactly the same way, regardless of whether couples are hetero- or homosexual.
All in all, I think we’re moving in the right direction. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and views with the world – they make for interesting and thought-provoking reading.
As an atheist, as a woman, as a member of the glbt community, as a peacenik, & as a person who has chosen not to reproduce, I THANK YOU for your anger. I THANK YOU for the detailed, thoughtful, supported, sincere, & WELL-WRITTEN expression of your anger. I am so tired of the “a woman catches more flies w/ honey than w/ vinegar” argument. I am tired of being expected to swallow my anger because expressing it leaves me open to charges of ugliness, intolerance, intemperance, selfishness, & closed-mindedness. I thank you for finding the words- so much better, so much more forceful & persuasive than any I have been able to command- that so clearly, so purposefully express the angers & frustrations of my heart as well.
I would like to add one anger to your list: I am angry @ both the lack of representation of atheists in tv programmes & movies, & the total disrespect with which they are treated when they ARE presented (“Contact” w/ Jody Foster springs to mind). Like the ridiculous “there are no atheists in foxholes,” Hollywood/TVland seems to have some sort of spooky agenda to prove that, under the right circumstances, we will all convert. Not unlike the argument that all a lesbian needs is “the right man,” apparently all movie/TV atheists need is a little mystical doubt & *poof* they’re believers again. Yet WE are the ones they insist have an agenda! Well, maybe we do. It’s called ENLIGHTENMENT, people!
This is one of the most sane, well-argued and succinct things I’ve read in a long time and it definitely voiced several things I feel. I’m an athiest but I doubt I could ever have expressed my feelings of anger this clearly.
I hope you’re able to get married and soon. Best wishes
Right. Now let me tell you why I, as a Christian, am angry.
I’m angry because, at least in the US, atheism is the folk religion of the elite–because for most Americans, for better as well as worse, it automatically marks one as an “intellectual,” and amongst adolescents it is a marker of coolness.
I’m angry because from the time I was in high school making standard anti-religious noises, citing Gallileo’s troubles, the idiotic butchery of the Crusades and the Inquisition, or simply making standard skeptical noises about the silliness of religious belief, was enough to get you good grades on essays and favorable comments–“I can see you’re really THINKING.” Spout religious cliches and you are quite legitimately trashed; spout equally canned, equally facile, anti-religious cliches and you are applauded as a bold, deep thinker.
I’m angry because where I live, as a member of the educated, upper middle class, and in particular as an academic, religious belief is not socially acceptable. Atheism may be a shocker amongst hoi polloi in Fly-Over Country, but in Academia and in the world of urban-coastal journalism, book publishing and the arts, atheism is the norm and the default position, and even the mildest, most liberal religious affiliation is at best an anomaly for which you have to apologize. It is a source of shame.
I’m angry because atheists, who are in a comfortable majority in the educated classes in the US as well as in other affluent countries represent themselves as a persecuted minority and play the victim card when in fact they are simply trumpeting their social status and expressing their disdain for the largely religious working class.
And finally I am angry because atheists have taken the least plausible, least acceptable, and most obnoxious versions of Christianity as the norm and refuse to notice that the majority of Christians are not on board with the fundamentalist agenda, do not believe in Creationism or Intelligent Design, are not interested in running Crusades or Inquisitions, and are not interested in trashing atheists.
I’m f***king sick of this plain snobbery, the whining by a privileged elite that they are being persecuted, and the moralistic packaging for this bigotry.
nice
Thank you.
Oops! I should add that my “Thank You” above was addressed to Greta, and *NOT* Logic”Guru”.
A thought for you: The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
~ George Bernard Shaw (1856 – 1950)
Great article.
I’ve saved this post to del.icio.us because this right here says everything that I’ve been feeling but never sat down to clarify! You say it clearly and so well-I’m a pissed off atheist and if anyone asks why, I now have a most excellent laundry list to reference! Maybe if there are enough of us, pushing for reason and sanity, we can turn the tide on what is such a scarily irrational world these days.
Thanks for posting this.
I loved your tirade, G.C. I share your reasons (at least the ones that concern me) even though I try not to be angry (of course, it’s easier for us in Europe to be cooler): I see the glorification of anger as another monotheistic bad habit I’d like to get rid of: Christians are always sooo angry and indignant, always so touchy that I try hard not too look like one of them.
Greetings from Brussels.
I agree with much of what you’ve said here. I see a lot of hypocrisy in it, though. For example: you complain that Christians act like they “know” about the universe. But you do the same. You can’t know for certain that there is no God any more than a believer of any strip can know for certain that there is one. (Although it seems pretty clear to me that believers do know for certain, otherwise they wouldn’t be so dedicated.) Those who believe in science take it on faith almost as much as those who believe in God. Science proves itself wrong all the time. Remember ether?
You compare all Christians to fundamentalists but resist being grouped in with other atheists. Unless all atheists are like Sam Harris, there’s no basis for trying to imply that all Christians are like Jerry Fallwell or all Muslims are like the 9/11 attackers, and so on and so forth. What that says to me is that you really don’t understand either of those religions and can therefore demonize it with a clear conscience (yet you don’t want believers to demonize atheists, and especially don’t want them to demonize you without understanding you.)
I could get behind this a little more if you seemed willing to practice what you preach and give believers the benefit of the doubt, just like you’re asking them to do to you. If you would listen to them and try to figure out where they’re coming from, just like you’re asking them to do to you. If you could refrain from demonizing them, just like you’re asking them to do.
All in all, this piece is thought-provoking, but at the end of the day, if you keep clinging to these hyposrisies, I don’t see the difference between your actions and the actions of those you’re so angry at.
We’re all human. We all suffer from human imperfections and limitations. Why not just leave it at that and leave religion out of it altogether?
Who cares what you think.
Thank you very much for this.
OK, so other than hypocrisy, is there anything that makes you angry? Poor speling? Inefficiency? Unkempt lawns?
> DEATH TO ALL RELIGIONS!!
Go ahead. Say it. “I hate bigots”. It’s easy. It’s self referential. That way, no one of consequence need be hurt.
—
…Pretty soon you’re gonna ask me,
“How come the life you lead,
Doesn’t make you
very happy,
Or satisfy your needs.” …
– Chris Smither, “Hey, Hey, Hey”
Brad…I don’t understand why an atheist should “pray 3-7 min” every day to find out if they feel a change in themselves. Do you know that I searched high & low, through many denominations & religions before I realized that NONE of them made sense? If anything could change that, it wouldn’t be wasting 3-7 minutes of my time every day. Believe me.
Great post, Christina. It is the height of arrogance to assert faith against logic and evidence. It is humble to submit one’s opinions to faith and evidence.
Always good to see a sister stand up and testify.
Thank you.
😀
that is all. you are not alone in your anger.
Stumbled on to your blog via another site, and we had to add our kudos to the pile I’m sure is accruing still for your wonderfully expressed essay.
Isn’t it appalling that you even had to write such an essay to point out facts that should be obvious to anyone with at least the sense to hold their breath when they go under water?
If at some point it becomes (and I hope it doesn’t) neccessary to draft an “atheist manifesto,” we could do much much worse than to use this piece just as it is.
Count us as new fans and avid readers of your blog!
yrs.,
Jeff & Kelly
THE BIBLE? Is Religion!
So donât pretend otherwise!
is a book of Pornography!
And, a primer on: how and who to slaughter by âstoningâ âpilloringâ and âburning at the stakeâ
The âBibleâ is the BOOK that perverted âPriestsâ and others swear on, thrive upon; and use to âconâ innocents out of their virginity! It is used to perpetuate the lies that brainwash children and fools into believing they are born âevil sinnersâ with âoriginal sinâ and must rely on the good graces of the charlatans to make them holy and restore them to a âstate of graceâ! (via sex acts?)
RELIGION IS THE PUTRID PUKE OF DISTORTED MINDS!
There is no excuse for intelligent people to be so ignorant of facts about the charlatan fantasies and make-believe pretenses of religion, that works to undermine the true Democratic principles and unifying influences of our Democratic Society. To promote, propagate, profligate or publish the same pretentious and pompous falsehoods that are the evil tools used by Fallwell, Baker, Haggard, the Pope, and their ilk to brainwash, indoctrinate, brand, and subjugate innocent children and fools for the purpose of using them to gain ever more money, power, and divisive influence, is tantamount to supporting pimping, and prostitution.
And because those charlatans use their evil schemes and lies to control, and enslave those misled
âbovid-likeâ droves by rendering them âvirtualâ robots that do their bidding; they are criminals, and
you; by supporting them, are a criminal cohort, equally guilty of the crimes they commit against
humanity, those fools, and the children they sexually molest!
THE WORST FORM OF CHILD ABUSE IS WARPING OF THE MIND!
To all you liars; or infected, condoners, and prosyletizers: when will you cease lying? or, wake from that mesmerized state?
In these days of the âComputer Ageâ there is absolutely no excuse for not availing yourselves of the truth of my assertions herein contained! You are abettors of child molesters! You are supporting those who enslave!
You are spreading the vicious âplague’â! And it is time for you to renounce those charlatans, for their evil concoctions, and manipulations; and âget withâ REALITY!
[email protected]
So what you’re saying is… you’re upset, right? (Sorry – couldn’t help it.)
Can’t we just agree that 99% of the “religious” people are dickheads and get on with it? Okay – so that’s not very specific or constructive, but then, neither is religion. I think all of us heathens need to stop tiptoeing around and start getting in peoples faces when they start blathering about their religion or using it as a weapon against us. We’ve all been taught that, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all,” to the point that we’re afraid to stand up and yell “BULLSHIT!!!” really loud when one of the forementioned pencil-dicked, pea-brained religious zombies starts dripping their self-righteous ichor on all and sundry. Sure, it’s a scary thing to do, and maybe you’ll get burned at the stake for it, but since when was anything worth achieving ever easy…?
Take care, and give ’em hell. (Err… I mean… make them really uncomfortable.)
So what you’re saying is… you’re upset, right? (Sorry – couldn’t help it.)
Can’t we just agree that 99% of the “religious” people are dickheads and get on with it? Okay – so that’s not very specific or constructive, but then, neither is religion. I think all of us heathens need to stop tiptoeing around and start getting in peoples faces when they start blathering about their religion or using it as a weapon against us. We’ve all been taught that, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all,” to the point that we’re afraid to stand up and yell “BULLSHIT!!!” really loud when one of the forementioned pencil-dicked, pea-brained religious zombies starts dripping their self-righteous ichor on all and sundry. Sure, it’s a scary thing to do, and maybe you’ll get burned at the stake for it, but since when was anything worth achieving ever easy…?
Take care, and give ’em hell. (Err… I mean… make them really uncomfortable.)
As an avid believer belonging to a Jewish synagogue, I have to say: Thank you.
All the things you’ve said that make you angry, make me angry, too. (Actually, they fill me with a deep sadness, which is worse; maybe I can learn to be righteously angry.)
At any rate, what you said needed to be said and I am glad it was.
Thanks again.
I was told something by a person of faith that i found troubling. She said that she believed the United States had a special blessing on it from God over any other place in the world. I asked why would God give the USA a special blessing and allow so many people, especially children suffer so much like those in third world countries. Her answer was because they are non believers.
In the end, all we can do is hope. Hope that one day, our voice will resound thoroughout this country. That the intolerance felt by those of use with different lifestyles and philosophical viewpoints will cease. The one day where intelligent discourse will not be met with scorn, but with an exchange of ideas.
Alas, humankind is what it is. We are often afraid of what we do not fully comprehend and hide behind our superstitions. However, humankind does have one fleeting idea that spans all faiths and viewpoints.
Hope.
I agree with everything you said on this website, and more of my own beliefs. I hate those fucking bastards for trying to impose their beliefs on us! I wish that they would at least, have the decency to respect us and what we believe in.
I get angry when you question the existence of god.
…
…
…
Bahahahahah!
It makes me angry when people furiously believe in the after-life that a religion offers, and then by extention the religion itself, simply because they fear death.
Okay, so, I’m atheist. In science, me and the christians at my table get into huge religious debates. They expect me to have all the answers. Mind you, I’m a thirteen year old girl. They bring up how life couldn’t have formed without the help of a god. Then they expect me (I am failing in my classes, by the way) to explain otherwise. After I say I can’t explain it because I don’t know, they act like they won some war.
I just wanted to say thank you.
I am angry too. Australia sees a lot of those same problems.
I get so angry I can barely express myself coherently, let alone eloquently so thank you for being both coherent and eloquent.
In particular I wanted to second your point about being required to know more about religion than believers. I find it infuriating that many believers feel I must justify my lack of belief more than they should explain their faith.
I will not stop being angry but I am happy to know that you and others like me are out there.
Galileo? That was a cakewalk compared to what happened to the last defender of human knowledge and last icon of female professional intellectualism for 1200 years. She was a theist. She worshiped Athena, goddess of wisdom and justifiable warfare. She was the last scientist defending 3000 years of human progress against the frothing christian hordes. They skinned her alive on her own alter with abalone shells, then set the human race back 2000 years by burning the vast repository of knowledge she was guarding known as The Library of Alexandria. Her name was Hypatia. I am angry like I knew her. Dont forget all the women of wealth and independence who were targeted by the church. They were declared witches, tortured, burned then all their assets were seized by the church. What I find incomprehensible is that women want to “shoo their men off to church” and then wonder why they get abused or treated like a second class citizen. I have said, when hearing a christian women complain about the above things, “Do you go to church? Do you encourage your man to go?” When the answer is “yes”, I respond with “then you must like this treatment, as it is recommended in the bible.” It goes over well 😉
Damn, that’s a beautiful piece of work.
Thanks for reminding me of the value of anger.
meh. Anger is a wasted emotion. Justified or not, it’s an aneurysm waiting to happen.
I try to direct my anger towards things that I know I can change. I can’t stop war, but I can send my penpals carepackages in Iraq. I can volunteer to contribute to my community. I am not a doctor, but I can fundraise for research. I can pay the electric bill of a woman going through cancer who is too sick to work or buy her groceries. I can babysit for a stressed out friend. I may never change “the world” per se, but I can change a few people’s lives.
I don’t discuss politics, religion, etc., but I can say what I want, vote how I believe, and respect the rights of others to believe however they want to.
People can try to force their beliefs on me, but I know that I can politely just ignore it. I can’t change anyone else, but I can change how I react to asshats.
Anger doesn’t do anything except shorten your lifespan. I’m not going to try to tell you to shut up or stop being angry, but you’ll never change the world of religion or believers. You’ll always be outnumbered.
Throughout this post you’re projecting your shadow self upon others. You are accusing others of problems that you have inside yourself that you haven’t dealt with. You should read up on projection, and a great place to start would be here:
http://eve3.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/its-all-your-fault/
You say that it makes you angry when you say something about Christians, and a Christian says “not all Christians are that way.” By doing this you’re not only putting that Christian in a tough spot (there’s no way she can deny what you’re saying without making you angry), you’re also categorizing a massive amount of people that you don’t even know. You have no idea who you’re talking about when you make a category of ‘Christian’ and set characteristics upon that category.
You are essentially saying “All black people are fast runners.” Then, when a slow running black person tells you “I don’t run fast, you’re not saying the right thing there.” you get angry.
You are an incredibly angry bigot that doesn’t look at anything other than your own fanciful subset of data you’ve ‘collected’. You don’t have a sound argument, nor even a valid one.
Kudos for being angry, though; Not many people have enough courage.
I teach Writing and Lit at an Illinois College–you get all the “A”s you could ever carry for an amazingly well written argument. I only wish my Christian (so-called) raised students could ever rise to your level of thinking, because they have been taught to not think at all.
Greg
What a wonderful post, it rings very true! So thank you for that, good luck with getting married.
Excellent post Greta, as others said before me, I’m bookmarking this just so I can show it when this argument comes up.
Cheers!
You have a long list of things to be mad at. If it is any concellation, Jerry Falwell did not go to Heaven. God didn’t like what he said either.
The resaon I came to you site is I have an important message to tell you and everyone. The message is from God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost respectively sent in the Spring of 2006. It is about the meaning of First is Last and Last is First . The message is this:
In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon I live my life. In the evening I die, death. What does this mean? In other words this means Birth is Last and Last is Birth. Think of this as a continuos circle of life. Birth, Life, Death, Birth. God also said that Judgment will be before Birth in Heaven. AS birth on Earth is painful so will birth in Heaven. Yes, God has recently made contact and he sent a messenger. OH, one more point of interest. Did you know that Mike Douglas died on his birthday? Mel Steffor
(Note: Don’t blame God for all of the evil things people do in the name of God.)
I think you did a good job in creating this post. I agree so called religous people are the blame for a number of bad things. Then there are Atheists that have done there share too. Then there is me. I am not a Church person. God came to my house and talked to me. I have proof that God talked to me. Now I know you did a lot of work putting this site together but I have proof that God is real. Lots of proof. Thanks Mel Steffor
I’m a Christian and I agree with 99.9% of the stuff you said. I’ve been really bothered by a lot of this stuff too. Way to go!
This was the most ignorant rant I’ve ever heard on religion. Take a few religion and philosophy classes and get back with us.
Telling an atheist to not be angry is like telling a goth to cheer up.
Sam, I think you are the typical Christian that she is making reference to. Look at your anger at her for not being like you. You use words like ‘Ignorant Rant’ then you tell her to take a few classes. Did anyone ever teach you to be nice? Now I know there is a God and she is allowed to think that maybe there isn’t a God. Good atheists still go to Heaven. Mean people don’t. Now I know cause God told me so. Mel Steffor
Greta, Wow. That was beautiful…
It’s a white-hot fire and a cool freshing drink of water at the same time. Can’t wait to share it with all my fellow heretics!
-Dave Fitzgerald
San Francisco Atheists
I just… thankyou. Especially about that damn point where you have to sometimes know more about their religion than they do – I learnt the bible in a not-allowed-to-opt-out of scripture class purely out of spite, just so I could fling back the scripture teacher (perfectly nice person aside from her belief that you would burn in hell for not being a Church of England Christian)’s pronouncements in her face. ‘The bible says’ was normally immediately followed by ‘excuse me, miss, what about Numbers 17?’ And that anyone religious expects you to give them consideration for their beliefs but are somehow given allowance to stomp all over your rights and feelings. Sometimes I feel like going ‘oh sorry, but I damn well *like* bacon/eating fish on a friday. Fuck you and buy your own food. And how come you automatically get given your religious holidays first by work but I have to fight to be able to get New Year’s Eve off?’ And that anything done in the name of religion is automatically more worthy than something done in the name of human rights.
Hey there, kindred spirit. If more people like you were in the habit of putting as much effort into this profoundly important discussion, then we would all have less reason to be angry. Thankyou.
Don’t get mad at God for the hate that so called Christians hold. I have been on the Internet talking to people since January 2007. So far what God told me just isnât spreading. God tells me to write most everyday. Iâd say the work is moving at a snails pace. Maybe people just donât get it or they donât believe it. Now I do have proof that God talked to me. Volumns of proof. So far the only people that are inclined to believe my story are those in the middle, they are not Christians or Atheists. One piece of proof is in the story of three famous people, Mike Douglas, Merv Griffin, and Nancy Reagan. The story is long so I will make it brief here. Mike dies on his birthday. Merv Griffin dies the day after. Merv and Nancy are born on the same day. Now I found this interesting but I didnât get it. That night I have a dream. In the dream I hear:
We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day. Now I get it. The reason I believe this dream is from God is that it seems to link up to the message above about First is Last. Then this also seems to be something that God would have to say. Plus earlier messages from both God and Jesus leads me to believe this is also from them. I think this message is important to him. He also had more to say than this. Mel Steffor
God also told me that some one made some unauthorized changes to the bible. The bible is not the true word of God. The Bible is part Fact, Fable and another part fabricated. Mel Steffor
“More proof:” God knows about the future and he knows what happened in the past. God sees everything. One thing that stands out about what he told me is: He told me âWho killed John F. Kennedy. I wondered why he told me this. Most of what he had to say related to the bible. I think he wants to use this information as proof of his other messages. So he wants people to take note. I have other proof than this. But this piece is the easiest to understand and post on the Internet. Jesus told me the man that shot the president was a policeman. He was hiding behind a tree in Dallas, Texas back in 1963. He waited for the president to drive toward him before he fired. The shooter was not Oswald. Oswald was framed. The letters in the killers name are F. Ritter. That is all the Holy Spirit told me. This will come out in the news, I donât know when. God will pick the time and the Judgment for this cop. My guess is that this cop is going to Hell. Mel Steffor
I consider myself a “happy atheist” but after reading your post maybe I should not be so complacent! Well done.
How could you not be angry? Being atheist, confronting the vileness that is organised religion, angry is perfectly legitimate.
One of the things that gets me angry is the retort ‘but look at all the good work that Christians do’.
And I say ‘And how many poor children helped will make up for the 2000 years of genocide, torture and cultural destruction’?
And I say ‘And does that help come without any strings?’
And I say ‘And what about all the charitable work done by non-religous organisations. Clearly being charitable isn’t something that can only be done in the name of God’
God needs humans to survive, not the other way round.
I have a wonderful husband whom I love hugely, and who loves me, and… I do not submit to him. No way. I respect his views and want to make him happy, but in turn, he respects mine and humors me in what makes me happy.
Leave the submission to the BDSM lifestyles who want it, and don’t imply that only females are — and that all should be — subs, thanks. Not even with the bestest dom in the whole wide world. Instead, I’ll take mutual respect, where neither is submitting on a regular basis, but both are willing to compromise when such becomes an issue.
And, of course, proper use of safewords within scene, where who’s submitting to whom is none of anyone’s business save the participants’.
BTW — Ms. Greta Christina… Thank you for writing this. I’m not an athiest (that’d be the husband in question), but I am non-mainstream religion, and I’d like all religions to back up and at least be “safe, sane, and consensual.” Mine too. [*prods the frothier members with sticks*]
(If curious, I wandered over from… http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=121 comments.)
That was spot on and brilliantly stated, not to mention eye-opening.
I love what betalife said–our children will be a great force for change. I have to believe that. My kids are smarter than I am, too. They’re wise and tolerant and open-minded and analytical. Kids like mine (and betalife’s) give me hope for the future.
Fight on!
– Kayly
Seems like you’re a pretty reasonable person for the most part. Most of the stuff you listed, though, isn’t anything only atheists should be angry about. It’s stuff everyone should be angry about. Sexual repression, holy wars? Religion shouldn’t even be an issue, this shit just sucks. The real problem with ‘religion’ is a lack of rational thought…which is hardly a ‘religion’ problem. Any system where people irrationally follow and carry out edicts ends up being shit. The problem with extremist sects of any religion isn’t simply that they’re ‘misinterpreting’ a holy book, but that they’re letting it override rational thought. There’s a lot that can be applied to real life, but there’s also a lot that ends up not applying to modern situations for one reason or another. Being inflexible about this stuff (the torah/bible/etc is either 100% right or 100% wrong,) is perhaps the greatest failing of millions of modern theists and atheists alike.
Just make the stupid noobs stop thinking that atheism is somehow an automatic +10 to smarts. (And that antitheism and atheism are the same thing.)
I’d give anything for there to be a God who loves me. Absolutely anything. I’d give anything to believe that this isn’t it, and that we all have some greater purpose, laid out far before our very species existed by some benevolent, omnipotent force.
But empirical evidence has shown me that if there is a God, He is a cruel and unjust one. If there is a God, He either regards us as a child with a magnifying glass regards an anthill, no more aware of our cries for mercy as we are of the ants’, or He doesn’t regard us at all. It’s reasonable to assume that there may once have been such a divine being, but time erodes all. If there is a God, it’s reasonable to assume He has grown demented with age.
Last year one of my closest friends died in a car crash. His parents are devoutly Christian. He was one of the most wonderful people I’d ever met, and I’m not saying that with the rose-tinted glasses of remembrance. Literally hundreds came to his funeral. I’ll quote the minister at one point during his eulogy:
“But maybe… Maybe even in this tragedy we can find hope. Maybe this grand revelation of God’s will on Earth will bring those of you who have come to say goodbye to Matthew into His arms. Maybe in losing one friend, many of you will find another in God.”
That was when I stopped ignoring religion and started paying attention. That was when I first got angry.
I applaud you.
Paix.
an excellent post, the first i’ve read here, but I’ll be back. i gave you a thumbs-up on stumbleupon and i’ll be posting a forward to this article from my blog as well. i’ve made many of these same points in my own writing but the bulleted way you laid them all out is just stunning. very very well done.
one additional point I’d like to add:
athiests, or at least this athiest, is angry because when my grandfather passed away early this year I had to sit through an hour long sermon at his funeral and listen to some a stranger preach about his god. I’m angry because all the obnoxious self-righteous godheads in my family insisted on turning the funeral into an excuse to proselytize and preach about heaven and hell and gods mercy and why we should have faith. I’m enraged that they had the gall to sit there and essentially accuse me and my sister of being cold-hearted for not sharing their delusions and believing that we’d see our grandfather again in heaven – the “don’t you want to see him again?” As though wanting something could make it real! As though my grief and pain was less valid then theirs just because I’m not naive and stupid enough to believe in their ridiculous fairytales. As though it was my my sister and I who were unreasonable.
And I’m angry because I know that they use this kind of a hard-sell “take advantage of people’s grief and pain to get them to convert” approach because it WORKS. Because when people are suffering the most and at their weakest they are most vulnerable to the promise of a chance to be reunited with their loved ones. Because we are animals and death scares us because we KNOW deep in our cores that what lies on the other side of death is not paradise or a brothel full of virgins or damnations but oblivion. And the animal in us, the basic survival instinct that evolution has hard-wired into all of us, doesn’t want to die. And the godheads manipulate that fear and pain and uncertainty that people feel in times of acute loss to take advantage of them. It’s sick, it’s disgusting, it’s vile, it’s religion in its rawest form, in that moment it’s comes about as close to rape as it’s possible to get without actually physically assaulting someone.
as far as what this athiest wants, Jesus once said that you’d be able to tell his true followers because instead of standing on the streetcorners or the pulpits proclaiming their faith they’d go into their closets and hide from the world and pray in secret, so no one but god would know, and that if outsiders wanted to tell who the christians were they’d know them by their actions. I’d like to live in a country where christians actually followed that bit of scripture, kept their religion private and personal & quite preaching at me, and actually carried out some of the love and charity that they bellow so unconvincingly about.
amen, sista!
just kidding about the “amen” part
but really, i love what you’ve written here.
You are very angry:) No, seriously, you have a right to be. There is so much that is just plain f*****d up with religion today, it’s just not funny…There are a minority I believe who do represent the good that religion ‘can’ do, but like I said, a minority, whose voice unfortunately seems to be seldom heard. So I think you have a right to be angry. Many of the things you speak of here make me angry too. Unfortunately, not much will change until there are more people who are angry and speak out. A post like this however, is a great way to start such a change….:)
Me too.
Things like this need to be distributed to the major Atheist organizations in this country.
My life was changed when I listened to Richard Dawkins’ speech on Militant Atheism on TED.com:
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/113
Everyone needs to listen to it, and apply those words to their lives.
Let’s start being the difference and stop being “so damned respectful.”
Garrett
all i have to say is where do you come from, because i want to shake your hand…I stumbled this early in the morning and read it all. I must say a few things..I am a pagan. I would like to say thank you for adding a few things about mistreatment of pagans in there! it made me smile! Second of all, my boyfriend is an atheist. We differ greatly in our belief in any sort of higher power. Your Quote “Not all believers act like that. I don’t act like that.” is something i have said often to him when he talks about all believers. It makes me realize that I has being extremely ignorant to how he feels and i am not helping him any. THANK YOU for making me realize that. this post brought me to tears because it made me finally realize what he is going through. THANK YOU SO MUCH
i wish you and Ingrid The best and I will be standing there fighting with you
again THANK YOU
Arielle
A damned good rant 🙂
As a Christian (no booing just yet please), I agree with what you have said. It pisses me off when people use a Creator to hurt, disparage, disenfranchise, profit, extort, etc. other people. Personally though, I don’t see it as less of a human flaw than similar abuses in other types of organizations (key word ‘types’, not volume).
I hope that atheists do know that there are those of us who respect your point of view, even if it isn’t ours. Excuse me for being silly, but isn’t that what we’re supposed to be doing in America?
So I’ll state this here so you know there’s at least one person out there rooting for you:
– I think that any two people that are in love should be able to be married. 🙂
– I think everyone should be able to make their own choices about sex, abortion, contraception, etc. If I, as someone with a certain set of beliefs chooses option A, and you choose B, that’s up to you.
– I BELIEVE that if we all work at convincing our respective groups to mind their own fucking business and let others choose their path, the world will be far better off for it.
My only proviso is that the choices any of us make don’t come at the expense of someone else.
So if a family member comes through a surgery and you as an atheist find yourself pissed that others in your family are thanking one god or another, please let it go. They are simply making a different choice. (Of course, in fairness they should also give flowers to the nurses and doctors who actually did the work. There is one set of people everyone can agree needs support 😉 ).
Morality (despite what religous fundamentalists of all stripes may think), is not a religous thing. While we are at it, neither is respect, compassion, joy or sympathy. We can all have the full service package of human existance with or without a diety.
Peace and (hopefully someday soon), parity 🙂
Thank you so much sugar. You express this absolutely perfectly. I can’t even *begin* to list all the ways that I get angry… I can give examples.
I was stuck in an airport for two days and my husband tried frantically to get a babysitter so that he could work. He got refused because we *were not mormon*.
I got asked if my kids could go to a pizza party with the other kids from his school. Thinking nothing of it, I say sure. They come home loaded with mormon propaganda and pamphlets and asking me all kinds of questions about why we don’t pray and who this god is anyway. I wanted to scream I felt so betrayed.
Woo and now I’m babbling. Anyway, just thank you. It helped me to focus my thoughts a bit more, despite how scattered this comment is.
I’m not a theologian (you can breathe a sigh of relief) but I was raised in a Baptist home. However, it’s not my place to tell you how to live. My parents taught me that, not my pastor, not my deacons, my mom and dad. As long as someone’s being atheist doesn’t intrude on my life, then why should I make a fuss over it?
I’m a scientist by education. I believe evolution, not only micro, but macro-evolution (from one species to many, and many of them die out in the process) took place. I believe that it took place because there’s mountains of evidence that indicates it did. Hell, even human fetuses have pharyngeal gill slits at the proper developmental stage.
Ironically, I still have faith – it’s called the prisoner’s delimma: Better to have faith in the un-provable and succeed in the end than to not believe and fail. That’s my choice. I refuse to pressure anyone, even an angry atheist, to accept that as their philosophy. Please know I enjoyed your post, I agree with 90% of what you had to say, those same things anger me as well, and I hope my post gives you a little relief from the naysayers around us. Well written and well said.
Greta
Just thought you might like to see what Delaware Libertarian did with this post.
http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/
Thanks for being so angry and eloquent.
They think atheists are angry? Uh…have they looked at themselves? How many violent crimes are performed every day in the name of god or religion vs atheist motivated crimes? There have been far, far more wars fought in the name of some religion than in the name of atheism. So who are the angry ones, really?
So, how’s that anger working out for you? God loves you, even when you’re angry.
I’m angry that ignoring mountain ranges of evidence in favor of a bunch of bronze age scribblings is called a virtue.
I’m angry that moderate religion is defended, because it doesn’t directly commit as many terrible offenses against humanity… As if it doesn’t work just as hard to undermine rational thought.
I’m angry that religious people are allowed to use the products of rational thought while denying the validity of the whole process. Using electric lights to read a sermon about the superiority of faith over reason, as if that light (and that printing press) required anything but the most incredible severity of thought, the most ruthless exclusion of emotion and the most astonishing tension of mind to create.
And I’m angry at all the people who avoid thinking about the issue, calling themselves “Christian” without ever thinking about what that actually means to their world view or philosophy, and who still take any comment on the subject as some sort of test that their amorphous faith has to survive.
But I’m very happy that you posted this.
I believe in God but I follow no formal religion, especially after taking a year of Christian history and finding the theology illogical in the extreme. I don’t think God cares any more (or less) about me than it does about the ant in my driveway and I am a fervent supporter of science, evolution, and social progress. I really liked your rant and plan on passing it to some of my like-minded friends.
It’s not just atheists who are angry about these things. What you’re describing is a fundamental abuse of your human rights and that is wrong. I am angry about the things you’ve posted, as well, and I was angry about them before I read your post. So there is that. But I am not angry at them because they violate my religious beliefs. I’m mad because these abuses are just plain wrong.
I believe in God, but I readily admit to no logical reason to believe. Belief is personal and should remain personal. I can’t rationalize it and I see no reason why I should – or why you should have to rationalize your beliefs either. And I don’t believe that religion should be used to hurt other people. I’m sorry that that has happened to you and Ingrid.
I should probably add that while I do believe in God, I do not believe in heaven, hell, or any other form of afterlife (including Nirvana). When we die, we’re dead. End of story. Although I do not have the carrot and the stick to motivate me to behave responsibly, I do anyway because it’s the right thing to do. (Usually. We’re not saints any of us.)
I would love to be Buddhist, but since their philosophy is bound to a belief in reincarnation, it can’t work for me. Oh well; take the good stuff, leave the bad. “Don’t hurt people” works just about anywhere.
You presented this in a way that I think my anger would’nt have ever let me do so…
You are so compelling & suave in the presentation,starting out slowly then rolling more & more into a ringing crescendo of feelings,only known & felt by people like us….
Damn woman,I wish you were single!
I think it’s ironic that religious people are coming out and accusing Atheists of being “angry.” When religious people look at this anger, they should understand that it’s just a small taste of the anger that the religious have been directing at the secular world for a very long time. They’re just not used to being on the receiving end of it.
And even though there are a handful of prominent Atheists coming out now, talking “angrily” about religion, unlike their religious counterparts, they very rarely take that anger to the level of violence. You don’t see many secular humanists flying planes into buildings, or forcing people to believe what they believe; they usually just make arguments with words, which is hardly oppression.
Sorry, I forgot to mention one thing. Though the anger Atheists have is certainly understandable and justified, I don’t think it’s necessarily the best way to approach the subject of religion. Carl Sagan wrote about how being angry at the religious can actually end up being counterproductive. Few people change their minds about something when confronted with an angry argument. Reason works better than anger.
“I’m angry at other atheists who can’t see why they should be angry. Who take religious crap regularly and don’t seem to be bothered by it. Who put up with religion in others like it’s a harmless eccentricity, and don’t question or challenge the ridiculous unfounded beliefs of others.”
hmmm….I’m a little angry that this person assumes that I shouldn’t allow other’s freedom of religion just because I don’t believe in a higher power…
GOD is DOG
I am accepting your invitation to voice my appreciation for this post.
P.S.
Itâs interesting how some theists have commented that they agree with the sentiments in this post as if it stood that only âsome otherâ theists are culpable.
Guess again: http://reasonoverreligion.blogspot.com/2007/09/your-religion-sucks.html
I might as well go out on a limb and call myself an athiest. I’m relatively new and unsure, but I definitely don’t want anything to do with organized religion any longer.
I did thoroughly enjoy this particular article and thank you for it.
Anyway, my simple question is, and I’m being serious here…
To an athiest, what does the word “goddamn” mean, exactly?
I love how people still refer to atheism as a type of religion, especially with everyone and their grandmother spouting off the “calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a haircut” quote. It really shows how uneducated some people are, and how much homework is to be done.
You are a soldier for us Atheists.
KEEP ON FIGHTN THE GOOD FIGHT!!!
Awesome post. I consider myself lucky to have surfed upon it and will help others find it.
Great list. Couldn’t agree more. Thank you. 🙂
Well bloody said.
God I hate Christians!
I’m angry…and since you think you deserve your say, then i deserve mine just as much. I am angry because you have such a lack of faith in human kind…i am angry that you are trying to push your non-religio doctrines on me, my fellow man, and actually get ANGRY at mother (now saint) teresa for giving people, however mediochre, health care that they would not ever have recieved if not for her…and if they did die, which they so did in multitudes, she gave them an honorable death and a blessing by whatever minister (or religious persons) that they so chose. I am angry that you are being judgemental against me, my family, my friends, and my community inherently.
Its people like you and the late reverend falwell, kenneth cole, and all other evangelicals that try to push their doctrines and not let people make up their own minds that are making this country less and less free. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOU, YOU POOR SELFISH BEING.
Interesting question, Kevin. I’ve thought about it a lot. To me, “god damn” is an intensifier, used to express somewhat generalized frustration, or to focus attention on something I’m saying.
I wish the English language provided suitable alternative words that I could use instead, but I haven’t found any. Expletives in English are generally derived from either blasphemy or “naughty” biology. George Carlin’s famous seven dirty words are an example of the latter.
Now, there are a whole series of words that don’t fall into such categories, like “darn”, “drat”, “fiddlesticks” “gosh”, and so on. However, in addition to sounding like Wally Cleaver when I use them, they are also derived from the first category, but deliberately altered to be less explicit. (When I say “fudge”, you all know what I meant to say, right?)
And those phrases are particularly used by the extra-religious, who are particularly careful to avoid blasphemy.
So by using them, I give them impression that I’m an exceptionally pious christian!
I haven’t found a way out of the tangle yet, so I just use the religious-derived expletives as expletives, and don’t worry about the literal meaning. It seems to communicate best.
(There is one notable exception, “by Jove”, whis is of course a reference to the Roman god Jove pater, but *that* makes me sound like Colonel Blimp.)
Solutions, if anyone has any, avidly accepted.
Well ranted!
Sometimes I’m reduced to just quivering with incredulity and desperation, and a vague nausea, when exposed to religious doctrinal drivel and the megalomania often associated with it.
Anger is indeed required – for intellectual health as well as catharsis.
So often I just want to scream: “That’s Bollocks!!”. Holding it in just ain’t good for you!
Here Here and Amen(excuse the irony)! If you ever feel like atarting a revolution I’ll be there! Good luck with your marriage – I hope people will come to recognize their hypocracy and idiocracy soon.
and as far as this “Andrew goes…
Shut up! Do you hear what you’re saying? “Less and less free”? For stating her views in a personal blog? Isn’t that freedom? For choosing her own religion, for being outside the normal realm and not being afraid to be open and proud about it? Isn’t that freedom? And where was she trying to force her beliefs on you? Did she ever once say that people had to believe what she believed, or even what she was writing? uh, no. She even has a damn disclaimer! May “God” save your soul from the ignorance and closed-mindedness that has you captive now.
Yes, by all means, be angry. Take a stand and spend the next 20 years bitching up a storm from the highest rooftop… Then when you’re done, see for yourself if you really made any kind of a difference in the world or if you just squandered the best years of your life that you had to be happy by choosing to be angry.
I think it is funny that rather than be happy that tides have begun to change over the last 30 or so years that you choose to be angry that it has taken so long… If everything you wanted came to pass, would you spend the rest of your life angry that it didn’t happen sooner? Seems from this post, you would.
FANTASTIC PIECE
Mr Happy,
“Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it.” – Mohandas K Gandhi (1869-1948)
The world is large enough that very few people are able to see the lasting effect of their legacy. But it is important to act anyway; to insist that the effect be measurable is a counsel of despair.
“…the 41st President of the United States, George Herbert Walker Bush, said of atheists, in my lifetime, ‘No, I don’t know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God.'”
So, Poppy Bush, that means that I don’t have to pay taxes? Or go into the military is there’s a draft? Wow, thanks a lot, Poppy!
Amen sister.
i want to be your best friend! i just stumbled on this (with that program on firefox) and i love every word you wrote in it! keep it up.
i was just trying to explain to a friend of mine why i am so angry at christianity/religion in general and how atheists are treated in this country, now i can just refer her here.
many many kudos. 🙂
Sorry.
Funny, you take your fundamental rejection of theism and extend it to contempt and “anger” at any and all parts of Christian tradition (you take a swipe as Islam; curiously, you spare Judaism, Hinduism, and other acknowledgments of the divine).
You find nothing of redeeming value whatsoever in Christian tradition of any sort?
Then I guess you reject most of Western Civilization in the period 400 C.E. to 1800. No Bach fugues for you! No Renaissance paintings! No soaring cathedrals! No universities! Religion tainted all, and made it all dark. In the trash with it.
Hell, you can’t even enjoy the music of U2. And no, you can’t have Martin Luther King either, sorry. His conception of civil rights was inseparable from his faith. He would have been the first to tell you.
“Fundamentalist” describes your attitude quite precisely.
“Idiotic” describes your failure to distinguish between a lived faith and a set of scientifically dubious propositions.
“Simplistic” is your sense of history and the human condition.
And that makes me very angry.
As an atheist, my first and strongest reaction to this was “Amen!”
😉
>>And no, you can’t have Martin Luther King either, sorry. His conception of civil rights was inseparable from his faith. He would have been the first to tell you.
Meh. Where to start?
1. Martin Luther King was heavily influenced by Gandhi. Not sure what his “faith” had to say about taking ideas from an “idolater”.
2. Civil rights are non-existent in the Bible, which has whole chapters devoted to rules for keeping slaves, but none at all to “all men are created equal”.
3. Dr. King was a serial adulterer and egomaniac. I’m sure he would have been the first to acknowledge the role religion played in his movement (if not in his life), but unlike you, I’m sure he would have had the self-awareness to see its limits.
Fundamentalist, idiotic, simplistic? Well you were so perceptive and correct in your drafting of Dr. King for your army of ideas that I’m gonna have to accept with all seriousness your characterization of the blog owner…
I was highly impressed with your post, and I want you to know that I had not one single problem with any of the great reasons you listed for atheists being angry. However, the question you set out to answer in the first place appears to have been, “Why are atheists SO angry?”, and that is a question I continue to ask. Atheist anger is indeed justified, but the response needs to be positive and not based in the same kind of hate that our opponents use. I shall never understand how it is in any way productive to take such hostile actions as burning Bibles (or smearing one in dog feces, as could be seen on Youtube earlier this year), calling for an ‘end to all religion,’ or saying ‘fuck God, fuck Jesus’ in support of atheism. Such actions tend to backfire badly and work against the cause. Is there no better way to deal with the very valid atrocities you’ve listed?
One example of this “better way” might start with the quote you listed by H.W. Bush. Last I heard, the concrete evidence for him having said those words was lacking in a terrible way. Has that changed? If not, then let’s get on board with finding the evidence. Once we have it, let’s make one universal front to condemn it. Heck, even as a former atheist I’m sickened every time I hear about that quote. I’ll gladly join any effort focusing on getting that proof and censuring those words.
Atheists should always have the right to get angry. I’ll never agree, though, that they should then have the right to become total jerks about it. Let’s stay positive.
Relax, He loves you 🙂
That was beautiful, brilliant, and extremely well written!
I’m spiritual, but don’t belong to any certain religion, and can relate to some of the things you said (obviously, not all).
I just want you to know that I’m cheering for you. And I know you said that you hate it when people say “but I’M not like that.” I hope you don’t take me saying something similar as a dismissal of your feelings, because it is far from it! I want you to know that there are more people out there like me, lots more, who would agree with everything you wrote here and fight for it: people who believe in god, but don’t believe that it’s necessary or even remotely right for everyone, people who believe in god and passionately are fighting for the right for couples like you and Ingrid to be recognized, or for atheists in the military or in public schools to not be forced into practicing something they don’t believe in, people who don’t think their faith is the only path, or that faith is necessary at all. And I want you to know that so you have some hope for the future. Groups of people like you and I are are slowly growing, slowly stirring up. America is on the brink of a slow cultural turning point, I think, and the younger generations (I know, I’m part of one!) are growing up much more accepting of lifestyles unlike their own. I have so much hope for the future, and I think if people like you, and me, and our friends keep standing up for what is right, we will get there!
(Also: I know what you mean about snarky atheists giving you the wrong reputation. The only thing I don’t like is that they treat some of us that are spiritual like we’re stupid for believing what we do. And yes, we’re not being logical or practical in their eyes, but we can still be very intelligent people! And of course, I am not talking about taking the time to talk with us, point out flaws in our beliefs, etc, because I believe such conversations are healthy for both sides! Somehow I get the feeling that you don’t think all spiritual people are stupid or ignorant, and I thank you for giving us that credit!)
I guess in summation: You go girl! I will be cheering and fighting for the rights of you and other atheists as long as it’s needed. Thank you for this fantastic piece!
I totally agree with you.
Sorry that you believed the lies. Atheist meeting don’t get broke up by Christian officers.
And I’m sorry that the first amendment doesn’t apply to those in the military while in uniform.
Sorry that you are angry the people can’t vote they way they want. Perhaps we can change to some other form of government where no one gets to vote.
Hey, spread the anger evenly. There’s plenty of cheats that deserve it, not just the christian ones.
I’m sorry that you feel like your time is wasted with christians that open with “I feel…”. Perhaps you’d save more time not worrying about them at all.
I’m sorry that only what you care to believe about is important to you and that other can’t believe something else.
I’m sorry that people people that their interpretation is right even if it’s different than the person next to them. Then again, your opinion is different, you should be angry at yourself.
Thanks for being angry about 9/11. The more people that remember, the less that we’ll forget and let it happen again.
Thanks for being angry about priests that molest children. Let them rot in prison.
I can see that you wrote this post a while ago, but I just found through a link on facebook. Anyway, I was just commenting because I found this post enlightening. I think that so many people criticize Atheists because they don’t understand. I myself am a Christian, but I agree with many of the things that you are angry about. And I think people should be angry. I agree that anger is the driving force behind change. And the part where you mentioned that some people have others so scared to question their faith.. That angers me to no end.. how is anyone ever supposed to learn and grow if they can’t question things?
People are so ridiculously close minded. There are so many people who don’t know the history of their faith, and have no idea that there are so many things to be angry about, and that we SHOULD be angry about.
I loved this post. I think that everyone, no matter what beliefs they have, has something to learn from it.
What you need is to get laid. Not with lesbian toys either. You need a stong man with some big junk and a strong will to set you straight. You are confused and angry because you haven’t had any real meat for too long. STFU and get over it already. You’ll only continue to be depressed unless you get some real action and from the “other” white (or dark) meat. Loser.
I appreciate your blog and while I agree with your sentiments, I got over my anger years ago. I’m sixty and a lifelong atheist, but consider myself a rationalist.
I don’t believe in anything supernatural including: astrology, tarot cards, bad luck, good luck, demons or angels, evil, psychics, lie detectors or pseudo-science, alien visitors or Santa Clause.
A lot of Christians have expressed disbelief that I include their religion in the list of things that I think are silly, but it expresses my point quite well.
Unfortunately, I won’t live to see the day when religion takes it’s place as a primitive belief system based on an irrational fear of the unknown.
I will admit that it still pisses me off that they indoctrinate children with a portrayal of a blue-eyed Caucasian Jesus.
I taught my children how to think critically, but never what to think. I also encouraged them to study theology and philosophy and it was no surprise that they’re both atheists.
My greatest regret in life is that the internet came into being so late in my life.
I applaud you wholeheartedly and hope that this blog becomes a raging success.
cheers!
I appreciate your blog and while I agree with your sentiments, I got over my anger years ago. I’m sixty and a lifelong atheist, but consider myself a rationalist.
I don’t believe in anything supernatural including: astrology, tarot cards, bad luck, good luck, demons or angels, evil, psychics, lie detectors or pseudo-science, alien visitors or Santa Clause.
A lot of Christians have expressed disbelief that I include their religion in the list of things that I think are silly, but it expresses my point quite well.
Unfortunately, I won’t live to see the day when religion takes it’s place as a primitive belief system based on an irrational fear of the unknown.
I will admit that it still pisses me off that they indoctrinate children with a portrayal of a blue-eyed Caucasian Jesus.
I taught my children how to think critically, but never what to think. I also encouraged them to study theology and philosophy and it was no surprise that they’re both atheists.
My greatest regret in life is that the internet came into being so late in my life.
I applaud you wholeheartedly and hope that this blog becomes a raging success.
cheers!
I’m angry at myself for having sex with your mother.
Those are all valid, it is not a sin to be angry. You should be angry at those things that malign God. You have to know that we live in a day and age, where there is such deception, and fallacy, that the truth is everywhere. That true believers in Christ, are so few and far between that it is difficult to find them. God never changes, people do, and what comes out of peoples mouths can both bless God, and speak evil. Those who can keep control over their tounge are considered perfect people, and since no one can tame the tounge that rules out everyone. It doesnt’ matter if you believe it or not, God does exist, as a Geologist who has seen all the errors, and still became Christian, by God’s Grace a true Christian. God does exist, period and he paid a hefty price for us to be in fellowship with Him. You don’t’ get to heaven by works, or by some stupid prayer. It’s also not that i know Christ, it’s that He knows me, and the responsibility placed upon my shoulders because of that. When you die, and you will, and you stand before God, He will not hear, well they did this, or he did that, and i am justified by other’s actions against me. He will simply say, depart from me you who work iniquity. But if you have the imputed Righteousness of Christ(we are not righteous, only counted as righteous) Through Faith in the Gospel, then God the father sees Christ, and Christ Judges your action.
i do not minimize the pain that has come into your life, due in the name of “religion” religion is a fallacy of man trying to get to God. God Came to us for a relationship. But YOU are responsible for the actions you take, they certainly have an effect, but they do not control you.
Atheists are not the only people outraged at injustice, oppression and hypocrisy.
Intolerance is the problem, or rather, tolerance of intolerance. People getting treated like you describe get treated like that because they are minorities (or just female), and the human race are born bullies. For example, women and blacks have been threatened and harmed in the military too, by their commanding officers, irrespective of their (or the perpetrators’) religion.
The US laws guaranteeing minority rights mean nothing if they aren’t enforced, and that means people have to be brave enough to make sure it happens – even at the risk of their own lives. If you don’t stand up for your rights, who will?
As a Jew, almost all – no, pretty much all – of your anger resonates with me too. And honestly, I’m certain your anger is shared by some Christians. It’s important to speak out, but it’s also important to vote for the right candidates, to be politically active, and to put one’s money where one’s mouth is.
As a Canadian Evangelical I found this to be a difficult piece to read. It is hard to read that much anger in any piece of this size, but the article has much to say.
I share many of your complaints. Much of your anger stems from the confusing intertwining (and syncretizing) of evangelicalism and right-wing Republicanism. You may or may not be aware, that in Canada evangelicalism has not suffered this fate. In fact, here evangelicals seem to vote across the spectrum. The combination is dangerous, mind boggling and at times infuriating! How can evangelicals support an unprovoked war based on lies? How can followers of Jesus condone oppression of the poor? I don’t know how that can happen. It makes me angry as well.
Some of your comments are critiques of Islam and strains of Christianity that have taken the fore in history, which allows for militaristic action in the name of religion. I agree that this is an enormous problem and one that runs clearly against the teaching of Jesus and His apostles.
You had many other very valid points though your article, and I want you to know that my response is not anger, but a desire to reform.
If atheism is only based on anger, an anger that is biased towards only fault finding, this is not a helpful or a sound place to base an ideology, and especially not a good place to start a revolution. It demonizes opponents, creates false dichotomies. It is the type of thinking that can justify holocausts, genocide, and the same hatemongering that angers you. It dehumanizes “the other” and robs them of their dignity and rights. Your article says that this has been done by Christians and other religious groups; is the proper (and enlightened) response to begin your revolution with the same bias?
I would challenge your presupposition that religion is a source of evil. Evils have been done in the name of religion, and evil people have used religion. I would challenge your presupposition that all religions are essentially the same. But most of all, I would challenge you to consider the enormous wealth of wisdom and goodness that our countries, our histories, our civilizations, yes, even our world, has received from the Church in the name of Christ. This would be difficult for you to do, but it puts you in a position to have the most influence on your opponent if you can accomplish this.
I think your anger can be very helpful to your country and even to the church, but you need to clarify it and mature in your views. You blur too many issues and draw simplistic connections where very complicated relationships are the reality.
An excellent example of this sort of a dialogue would be a little book by Pierre Burton (a Canadian atheist) called “The Comfortable Pew” where he is *invited* by the Anglican Church to critique them. He shows respect, but when he has a bone to pick he hits it with remarkable accuracy.
My conclusion: Good passion. Some good thinking. You need to refine it much more. Right now you’re attacking a straw man.
That was by far the best piece explaining feelings behind the Atheist ideals I’ve ever read. Also, as you stated near the end, it is only a small portion of what angers you about religion. That is also true.
This page is worth the read for anyone of any faith. I, too, am sick of explaining to some people how incredibly ignorant they are when it comes to their faith, and how they look at other faiths.
I bookmarked this page.
it’s sad that religious people often consider if virtuous to ‘stand up to’ reason and logic armed with nothing more than empty faith.
on a side note, i like you, you’re level headed. there should be more people like you.
No americans, no Jews, no Chinese, no Muslim, no Spanish, no Hindus but…
Once a person believes in a Creator , who made the microscopic world, and the Universe, he will also understand the interaction between , both of them, a plant needs the Sun, and the Sun needs the others Galaxies , all interacts, and humans have one need that is deep inside of all of us, is deeper that our minds, our pleasures, our knowledge, regardless have we denied him to the utmost , the one who made us is waiting for us even we feel he is running for us to forgive us and deposit his life in us. We have pointed the he has use the Bible as a means to converse with us, and subject as well the outline of the book is the person of Jesus through whom we become the many sons of God.
In some blogs , the issue of being a Muslin or a Jews has been raised up, in reality, Americans, Spanish , Hindus, Chinese, we all are diferents, yet the only one person in ancient history who claim to be the son of God was Jesus, he has abolish all distintions, there is no Greek or Jews, no barbarian, no free man, neither man or woman(this is the reason why man must respect all woman, and woman should respect man).
http://theatheistofdelusion.blogspot.com/
http://scientistcanotcalculateearth.blogspot.com/
Rafael
I. BELIEVERS BEING ONE IN CHRIST
After a new believer has received Christ, he has to see the oneness of believers in the Body of Christ. In other words, he has to realize the abolishment of all distinctions. This means that there should be no distinctions among believers who have become one in Christ.
First Corinthians 12:13 says, “For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free.” The word whether signifies the removal of distinctions. There are no worldly distinctions in the Body of Christ. Verse 13 continues, “And were all given to drink one Spirit.” We were all baptized in one Spirit into one Body and were all given to drink one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27-28 says, “For as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There cannot be Jew or Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Here it says that in Christ we all are one. We are those who have put on Christ. The words put on are just one word in the original text. It does not mean “wearing” as much as it does “covering up.” We were all baptized into Christ and have all put on Christ. There cannot be Jew or Greek, slave nor free man, male and female, for in Christ we all have become one. This means that our oneness in Christ has abolished all of our former distinctions.
Colossians 3:10-11 says, “And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all and in all.” This passage also says that there are no more distinctions among believers. Galatians 3:28 says, “There cannot be,” and this verse also says, “There cannot be.” There cannot be distinctions because we have put on the new man. We have received and been incorporated into the new man, which was created according to the image of God. In this image there cannot be Greeks or Jews, circumcision or uncircumcision, barbarian or Scythian, slave or free man, for Christ is all and in all. Therefore, all the believers are one; they have become a single entity.
From these three portions of the Scripture, we see that all believers are one in Christ, and all of their distinctions have been abolished. This is the basis upon which the church is built. If we bring all our earthly distinctions into the church and into the Lord, we will corrupt the church and spoil the relationships among the brothers and sisters.
We must see that we have all been made one in Christ. Our past distinctions no longer exist among us when we are in the Lord. There are no distinctions in the new man and in the Body of Christ. At least five distinctions are spoken of in the verses above. We see five contrasting pairs, but actually there are six differences. First, there is the difference between Greek and Jew. Then there is the difference between free man and slave. Following this there are differences between male and female, barbarians and Scythians, and circumcision and uncircumcision. According to the apostle Paul, no matter what differences there are among men, we all have been made one in Christ.
In this world, the most important thing to a person is his position, that is, his status. If I am a certain kind of person, I have to live up to my position or my status. But if we are to be Christians at all, these considerations must go. If we bring our personal status and position into the new man, we will make the new man old because these distinctions belong to the old man. Therefore, when we come to the church, we must give up all these things.
II. THE ANNULLING OF NATIONALITY
A. There Being No Distinction between Jews and Greeks
In the world the greatest distinction is based on nationality. The Jews and the Greeks are two very distinctive races. The Jews are very nationalistic. They are the descendants of Abraham, the chosen people of God; they are the only nation established by God on earth. They are separated from other nations and are a peculiar people unto God. But instead of humbling themselves before God and exalting Him, they are proud and boast of themselves before other races. Their pride carries their nationalism to an extreme degree. They despise all Gentile nations. In their eyes the Gentiles are animals, dogs. They do not recognize the Gentiles in any way.
This is why it is rather difficult to put a Gentile next to a Jew and ask them to be fellow Christians. A Jew may believe in the Lord Jesus and call himself a Christian, but it is very difficult to persuade him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. The book of Acts tells us that the gospel was preached first to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. Later, when the gospel reached Samaria, it was the Jews who were saved. In order to bring the gospel to the Gentiles, the Lord had to rise up Paul and charge him with the preaching. Even then, it did not immediately begin in Antioch. Peter had to make a start in Caesarea first. It was quite hard for Peter as an apostle to the Jews to go to the Gentiles. Therefore, he needed to see a vision three times and had to hear the Lord say three times, “Rise up, Peter; slay and eat!” Without this, Peter would never have dared go to the Gentiles. This was the first time the gospel was preached to the Gentiles, and it shows how reluctant the Jews were to preach to the Gentiles.
In Acts 15 a problem arose in the matter of circumcision and the keeping of the law. Some advocated that the Gentile believers needed to be circumcised and keep the law. They were, in effect, saying that in order for a Gentile to be a Christian, he had to be a Jew first. How strong was this nationalistic barrier! The Gentiles had to wait until Acts 15 before they were exempted from circumcision and from keeping the law. Peter and the others told Paul and Barnabas to go freely to the Gentiles and assured them that they would all remain in the same fellowship.
Galatians 2 tells us that Peter went to Antioch and ate with the Gentiles. But when certain people came from James, he shrank back and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcision. Paul openly rebuked Peter for not walking according to the truth of the gospel. The cross had already broken down the middle wall of partition, and there should be neither Jews nor Gentiles.
We may be a Jew or a Gentile. But may the Lord bless us to see that in Christ we all have been made one. Our nationality has been abolished and our national distinctions no longer exist. Whether one is a Chinese believer, an English believer, an Indian believer, or a Japanese believer, he has become a brother or sister in Christ. We cannot separate God’s children by nationality. We cannot have Chinese Christianity. If it is Chinese then it is no longer Christ. It is either “Chinese-ity” or “Christian-ity”; there is no such thing as Chinese Christianity. These two terms contradict one another. We are all brothers and sisters in the Lord. There cannot be any national distinctions. This is quite obvious. In the Body of Christ, in the new man, we are fully one; there are no national distinctions of any kind. Even nationalism as strong as that of the Jews has been annulled by the Lord.
B. The Cross Breaking Downthe Middle Wall of Partition
Ephesians tells us about a wall between the Jews and the Gentiles. The two are separated. But the cross has broken down the middle wall of partition. There is no longer any distinction or separation. If we meet someone who is in Christ, we should not say that he is Chinese; he is a person in Christ. We should not say that someone is an Englishman; we should say that he is in Christ. We have all become one in Christ.
Never think of having a Chinese church or a Chinese testimony. This is a great mistake, and the idea should not even cross our mind. Please remember that in Christ, there is no distinction between Greeks and Jews. There is no such thing. If a brother or a sister introduces such a thing among us, it means that he or she is bringing in a foreign element. The result will be corruption within. We do not have any distinction between Jews and Greeks. In Christ we are all joined together. We have to eradicate all nationalistic notions from our heart. The moment we bring such a thing into the church, the church becomes an organization of the flesh and no longer the Body of Christ.
Some people are so strong in their nationalistic feelings that they cannot be Christians in a proper way. Though we are Chinese and under the jurisdiction of our country, this relationship ceases when we are in Christ. Whenever we come before the Lord, we do not come as a Chinese person. Such a consciousness should be kept outside the door. We hope new believers will see from the very beginning that we are linked together in the life of Christ. I have received the life of Christ, and a brother in England or a brother in India or Japan has also received the same life of Christ. We are united according to the life of Christ, not according to our nationalities. We must have a very clear vision about this. In the Body, in Christ, and in the new man, nationality does not exist. That distinction has been totally abolished.
After the First World War, a few brothers from England went to Germany for a conference. During the conference, a brother stood up and introduced the British brothers with the words, “The war is over, and some English brothers are here to visit us. We warmly welcome them.” After this introduction, a brother from England stood up and said, “We are not English brothers; we are brothers from England.” This is a marvelous word. There are no English brothers; there are only brothers from England. How can there be an English brother, an American brother, a French sister, or an Italian sister in the house of God? Thank God, there are no national distinctions in Christ.
Brothers and sisters, we are all part of the church. We have received the laying on of hands already. Now we must see that all distinctions between Greeks and Jews have been abolished. There are no longer any such distinctions in Christ. This is a glorious fact, a truly glorious truth. In the church there is only Christ. Christ is all and in all. There is nothing besides Christ.
III. THE ANNULLING OF CLASS DISTINCTIONS
Another intransigent relationship in human society is class distinctions. We do not experience national distinctions too much unless we meet foreigners. However, we come across the problem of class distinctions daily. The apostle tells us that there is no class distinction between the free man and the slave. In Christ, there is no free man or slave. Such distinctions no longer exist.
Our generation has probably never experienced the sharp class separation which exists between the free man and the slave. However, Paul wrote his Epistles during Roman rule when the practice of slavery was at its zenith. At the time of the Roman Empire, there was a cattle market, a sheep market, and a human market. This can be compared to the textile exchange, the commodity exchange, the stock exchange, and the gold exchange in Shanghai. At that time in Rome, there was a human exchange. The Romans fought many wars and captured many people. They put these captives in the market for sale. If a master felt that the children of a slave were eating too much, he could bring the children to the market and sell them. Such a practice was very common in Rome. Human beings were bought and sold like goods. Profitability was measured by the number of children one produced; those who produced more were sold for a better price. At that time there was a great distinction between the free man and the slave.
Although the idea of democracy came from Rome, and although civil rights, suffrage, and voting began from Rome, these rights belonged to free men only; the slaves had nothing. If one killed a slave, he merely needed to negotiate the monetary worth of the slave with the master and pay accordingly. The slave had no civil rights; he was not considered a human being. Killing a slave was like killing a cow. The most one had to do was pay for the cow; there was no need to pay for the life. Children of slaves were slaves automatically, and they belonged to their master. For their whole life, they had no freedom of their own unless their master chose to release them. If they ran away, they would be crucified.
This kind of class distinction is many times harsher than that between masters and servants, employers and employees, and bosses and subordinates of today. Such distinctions no longer exist anywhere on earth. But long before the world abolished this practice, God’s Word already had abolished such class distinctions. In the three Epistles to the Corinthians, Galatians, and Colossians, Paul stated that there was no distinction between the free man and the slave. Such a distinction is abolished in Christ.
In the New Testament the book of Philemon speaks of a slave of Philemon by the name of Onesimus. Philemon was a co-worker of Paul. When Onesimus believed in the Lord, he too became a brother. When they were at home, Onesimus was the slave and Philemon was the master. But if Philemon brought Onesimus to the meeting of the church, one would call Onesimus Philemon’s brother, not his slave. In the church, relationships between masters and servants cease. When they knelt down to pray together, Onesimus was Philemon’s brother. But when they rose up to do their work, Onesimus was Philemon’s slave. In the Lord they were one, in the new man they were one, and in the Body they were one. Please pay attention to this: In Christ the master-slave relationship does not exist, in the new man this relationship does not exist, and in the church this relationship does not exist. In Christ all class distinctions are totally abolished. There is no more class consciousness or class struggle.
Before God we must see that today we may be a servant, a subordinate, or an employee. We should take our stand in the workplace and learn to submit to our superior or master. However, when we come before God, we should not yield to someone just because he is our master or boss. In our discussion over spiritual matters, we should not consider our master or our superior to be always right or his reasoning to be always correct. There is no such thing. Whenever we kneel down to pray or discuss spiritual matters, our status is changed, and there is no class distinction between us. We cannot introduce any class relationship into the church, because such a relationship does not exist in the church.
This fact is especially important when we come to the church meetings. Recall how James condemned such a sin. He said when a rich man comes, he is given a better seat, and when a poor man comes, he is told to stand or be seated at the footstool. James condemned such an act as a sin. Whenever we come to the meeting to fellowship with God’s children, we must be clear that our standing is in Christ, in the new man, and in the Body. Our standing is not based on any class distinction.
Only Christians can break down all class distinctions, and only they can do it thoroughly. Only Christians can hold hands together and greet each other as brothers because only they have love. Only Christiansâthose who are in Christâcan remove all class distinctions. A young person must realize that as long as he is a believer in Christ, his Christian boss is his brother and his Christian subordinate is also his brother. His Christian master is his brother, and his Christian slave is also his brother. The distinction between the free man and the slave is annulled entirely; this distinction no longer exists. We can only fellowship with our brothers and sisters based on the little that the Lord has given us. We are all brothers and sisters. If we do this, we will be greatly blessed by the Lord, and the church will be filled with the Lord’s love.
Several Christians in Chungking once wanted to build a church for the government officials. They came and asked me for my opinion. I said, “What name are you going to give to this church? I think you should name it `The Church of the Civil Officers.'” If it is a church of officers, surely it is not something in Christ, because there is no such thing in Christ. There is neither free man nor slave in Christ. If a free man wants to be saved, he has to receive the Lord’s life. If a slave wants to be saved, he also must receive the Lord’s life. There is no difference between the two. We cannot add anything to Christ or subtract anything from Christ. Man cannot build a church for officers, because there is no such thing in Christ. Everyone has to learn to be a brother or a sister.
IV. THE ANNULLING OF DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN AND FEMALE
The fourth distinction that has been abolished in Christ is that of gender, that is, the distinction between male and female. In this world the male occupies one role and the female occupies another role. In church administration the male also has his place and the female her place. Within the family the husband has his place and the wife has her place. However, in Christ and in the new man, both the man and the woman have the same stand; there is no distinction between them.
In Christ, the man does not occupy a special place, nor does the woman, because Christ is all and in all. In this respect a man is no different from a woman. Please remember that in spiritual matters there is no distinction between male and female.
We have mentioned that the sisters’ place in some areas of service is different from that of the brothers. But this pertains only to the matter of authority. Today, in Christ, there is no difference between the two. A brother is saved through the life of Christ, the life of God’s Son. In the same way, a sister is saved through the life of Christ, the life of God’s Son. Every case in the Bible where the Chinese version translates “sons and daughters,” the original word is children. This word does not differentiate between male or female (even though its usage is masculine). I am born a child of God and grow up to be a son of God. A son is male. Yet this description fits both the brothers as well as the sisters.
In the whole New Testament, only 2 Corinthians 6:17-18 speaks of sons and daughters. “Therefore `come out from their midst…and I will welcome you’; `and I will be a Father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to Me.'” After we have believed in God and are delivered and separated from the world and its polluted and unclean influence, God will receive us like a Father, and we will be His sons and His daughters. This is a matter between God and an individual; it is not a matter of what a person is in Christ. This is why it says sons and daughters. When a person suffers for God, incurs loss for His sake, and experiences hardship because of Him, God will become a Father to such a one as an individual. If you are male, God will receive you as a son. If you are female, God will receive you as a daughter. God will receive you as His sons and daughters. He is the all-sufficient Lord. He has everything. This is a matter of what a person is before God. It has nothing to do with what he or she is in Christ. In Christ, we are all God’s children, and there is no distinction between male and female. This distinction does not exist at all.
Once I asked a certain craftsman in Shanghai, who was a brother in the Lord, “Brother, how are the brothers in your place doing?” He replied, “Are you asking about the male brothers or the female brothers?” This answer could not have been put better. It is one of the truest words ever spoken. Male brothers are brothers and female brothers are also brothers; there is no distinction in Christ. What this brother said was absolutely correct; he was simply stating the biblical truth. When we come to the Lord and touch Him, we transcend all male and female distinctions. We are beyond gender. Before the Lord and in Christ, there is no distinction between male and female.
V. THE ANNULLING OF ETHNIC DISTINCTIONS
In the Bible there is another distinction between Greeks and Jews. The Jews are a very religious race, whereas the Greeks are a race that embraces philosophy and wisdom. Historically, when one speaks of religion, he thinks of the Jews, and when one speaks of philosophy, he thinks of the Greeks. All branches of sciences and philosophy in their primitive form come from the Greeks. Today, all scientific terms have their root in Greek. Hence, the Greeks symbolize wisdom. If one wants to talk about science and philosophy, he has to go to the Greeks. If one wants to talk about religion, he has to go to the Jews. These are distinctions in ethnicity.
People living in various parts of the world often have their own ethnic characteristics. For example, those who grow up in the south are more affectionate, while those who grow up in the north are more reserved. Southerners are generally more easygoing, while Northerners are generally more serious. People living in tropical regions like to dance and sing all day long, while Northerners, especially the northern Europeans, do not like to even jump. Instead they appear reserved and conservative. But the Southerners can be Christians as much as the Northerners can. Jews can be Christians, and Greeks also can be Christians. The wise can be Christians, and the religious can be Christians also.
In Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. Some people like to reason; they want to explain everything. Other people like to talk about the conscience. Does that mean that these are two different types of Christians? According to the flesh, these two are totally different. One walks by the intellect and the mind. Another walks impulsively by feelings. But in Christ, there is no distinction between the Greeks and the Jews. Not only are national distinctions gone; even ethnic distinctions are gone. A reserved person can be just as good a Christian as a warm person. Those who walk according to the mind can be Christians, and those who walk according to feelings can also be Christians. All kinds of people can be Christians.
Since all kinds of people can be Christians, one must learn to drop ethnic characteristics when he comes into the church. There is no such thing in the church life. Many problems arise in the church today because people bring their ethnic flavor into the church; they try to bring in their own distinctive characteristics. When the non-talkative people meet, they become a non-talkative group. When the talkative people meet, they become a talkative group. When those who are reserved come together, they become a reserved group. When those who are affectionate come together, they become an affectionate group. In this way, many distinctions are built up among God’s children.
Please remember that ethnicity does not exist in the church, in Christ, or in the new man. Do not condemn a person just because he has a different temperament than yours. You have to realize that others may not appreciate you that much either. You may feel that you always speak affectionately and wonder why others are so cold. But others may think you are talking too much; they may find your disposition intolerable.
Whether you are quick or quiet, cold or warm, intellectual or sentimental, as soon as you become a brother and enter the church life, you have to drop your disposition. Such things do not belong to the church. As soon as you introduce these natural elements into the church, they become standards for judgment and separation, and brothers will be divided. You will become the standard, and all those who are up to your standard will be considered good Christians, while all those who are not up to your standard will be considered poor Christians. You will become the standard. You will introduce your own nature, character, and temperament into the church. All confusion in the church issues from different human temperaments. Your silence is not necessarily good, nor is your talkativeness. Your reservation is not necessarily good, nor is your warmth. Your strong intellect may not necessarily be good, nor are your intense emotions. All these are distinctions outside of Christ. They are represented by the Greeks and the Jews. None of these natural dispositions can be brought into the church life.
A new believer must learn from the beginning to reject anything that comes from the old man. He should not say, “This is the way I was.” Many brothers shamelessly speak this way. We must tell them that we do not want their old person. They should not bring in their old person. That is not something in Christ, and we cannot create distinctions based on that. Such distinctions have to be totally abolished. In Christ, in the Body, and in the new man, these distinctions are totally annulled.
No brother or sister should carry his or her natural disposition into the church. As soon as you are saved, you have to leave these things behind. If you come to the church and contact the brothers and sisters, approving only those who agree with you and are up to your standard and disapproving those who disagree with you or are not up to your standard, you will bring confusion and division into the whole church. Throughout the years, the church has suffered damage through differences in dispositions. Never bring your dispositional differences into the church. Some people have a quick disposition, and they may say, “I am quick, and I do not like anyone who is slow. God does not like those who are slow.” Some people are slow by nature, and they may say, “I am steady by nature, and I do not like anyone who is quick.” But neither quickness nor slowness should be in the church life to divide God’s children. The moment you bring these things in, you make yourself the standard. The Greeks want the Jews to repent, and the Jews want the Greeks to repent. But God wants to set both aside. There is nothing else but Christ.
If a new believer upholds this principle from the very beginning, the church will be spared much hardship. We must never discriminate according to our character. We must reject the things that belong to the old man. We should walk in the same footsteps as all the other children of God.
VI. THE ANNULLING OF CULTURAL DISTINCTIONS
The book of Colossians speaks of two kinds of peoplesâbarbarians and Scythians. These two names have posed a problem to Bible scholars. In English a barbarian means a savage, an uncivilized person. But what is a Scythian? This word comes from the Greek word Zema, which became Zecotha, then Zecothia, and then Zecothian.
Mr. Wescott said that Zecothia was the name of a place. In ancient Greek literature, Zecothians and Galatians were often mentioned together. Hence, the Zecothians were a respectable people. Like the names of many cities, the word Zecothians brings a certain image to mind as soon as it is mentioned. For example, when Shansi is mentioned, one thinks of those who deal with money because most of the people from Shansi are businessmen. When Shao-Shing is mentioned, one thinks of court secretaries during the Ching dynasty. The name of a place often conjures up associated images.
If you consult Greek literature, you will see that the Scythians were a respected people, while the barbarians were a despised people. This is a matter of culture. Culture creates a big distinction in the world. If you put a typical English gentleman beside an African native, the difference in culture will become very obvious. However, Paul tells us that barbarian and Scythian alike must abolish all distinctions.
This cultural distinction has brought in frustration for many people. Once I met two Jews. Because I knew both of them quite well, I asked them frankly, “Why do so many people in the world hate Jews?” One said, “Our Jewish culture does not conform to the standard of others.” That was the first time I heard such an answer. I did not understand what he meant. He went on to explain, “Consider the case of an American Jew. Honestly speaking, if I were a non-Jewish American, I would not like American Jews either. I would despise the Jewish culture. If an American earns two hundred dollars a month, he spends a certain portion of it on food and rent. He polishes his shoes and changes his shirt daily. Once every two months he buys a pair of new shoes and keeps his house neat and clean. He is happy if he has ten dollars left in his pocket at the end of the month. But the Jews are different. A Jew who makes the same amount of money spends only ten dollars a month and saves the rest. He calculates how much he can save if he does not polish his shoes or buy new ones. He can tolerate a dirty shirt to save on soap. Unlike the American who is so particular about his creature comfort, the Jew is not particular about food or lodging. All he wants is an ever-growing savings account in the bank. We Jews look down on Americans because they are so poor. Americans look down on us because they think we do not care for personal grooming and living conditions.” He went on to say, “We Jews are good at making money. We are good with our brains but not with fashion. We cannot get along too well with others. This is why no one likes us.” That was the first time I heard such an answer.
It is difficult for a person with a polished culture to see eye to eye with one who has a seemingly unpolished culture. This is a matter not of class, intellect, or financial status, but of culture. From a Scythian’s point of view, nothing about a barbarian is right. A barbarian is wrong in the way he dresses, eats, and lives. From a barbarian’s point of view, a Scythian is too hedonistic. He is too particular about food and clothing. These two persons have two totally different perspectives. If both of them come to the church, each will bring his own opinion along and consider the other wrong. When they come together, there is bound to be a clash. They can never be one with each other.
The Chinese eat with chopsticks, while the Indians eat with their fingers. Put them together at the same table for a few meals and both will feel uneasy at heart. They may not say much. But leave them together for two days and they will not be able to stand each other; they will start to quarrel. One may feel that chopsticks should be used because it is unsightly to eat with one’s fingers, and the other may feel that eating with chopsticks is merely for show and that one can truly enjoy his meal when he eats with his fingers. One will say that the other is wrong and vice versa. This is a difference in culture. Such cultural differences present a real barrier. But even this is abolished in Christ. Those who are in Christ should be the most accommodating persons. They can tolerate all kinds of human differences. A man in Christ does not set up a standard and demand that everyone else to come up to his standard. He does not respect only those who come up to his standard and despise those who do not. This is not how a person in Christ should behave. This kind of behavior does not belong in the church or in the new man. Suppose some brothers among us come from India or Africa. Their cultures are different from ours. But we should ask only one question: Are they in the Lord or not? They should ask us the same question: Are we in the Lord or not? If we are in Christ, all problems will be settled immediately. When we contact each other in Christ and love one another in Christ, there is nothing that cannot be tolerated. We should not allow anything to come between God’s children, to differentiate the brothers and sisters in Christ from one another.
We cannot group the sophisticated brothers and sisters together to form a church. We cannot group the unsophisticated ones together to form another church. That would not be the church. Such things are not in the church. They belong outside the church, outside the Body, and outside the new man. We must never bring such problems into the church. All cultural differences have been abolished in the church.
However, we must learn to “live as Romans among Romans” and be under the law among those who are under the law. Whatever kind of culture we are in, we do as others do. If some African brothers come to China, and they have the knowledge of God, they should use chopsticks. If we go to Africa, we may have to eat with our hands. We do not want to come into conflict with the local brothers and sisters. When we go to them, we must learn to live among them. When they come to us, they must learn to live among us. When we go to England, we must learn to behave like the Englishmen, and when an Englishman comes to China, he must learn to behave like the Chinese. If we do not do this, we will stumble others, and they will not be won to Christ. If God’s children have a good start in this matter, they will avoid much trouble later on.
One of the things you highlighted on your list was how religion makes us ashamed of our bodies and sexuality. I found this out firsthand, personally and through my friends, who is extremely religious and planned to save herself till marriage. Due to teenage hormones, she didn’t get to save it, and she was absolutely devastated and pretty much thought she was going to hell for a perfectly normal function (her equally religious boyfriend was upset over the fact she used Plan B, because HE was stupid enough to not even use the pull-out method). I love this girl dearly as a friend, and to see something that she dedicated herself so much to hurt her, it made me ache inside. I loathe how this indoctrination makes us feel guilty for functions, which taboos that have no meaningful basis in today’s society. I thought I was going to hell for a while for masturbating, but then, slowly, I realized that religion was pretty much a useless outdated form of mind control. :/ Yet, my mother still insists on making me go to church at the tender age of 18. I’ve avoided it so far until Christmas, when I went without much fight just for the sake of tradition.
I’ve also noticed that teens, as a whole, are almost always angry as well. We are. And for good reasons. xP
Perfection!
lol It seems like your more angry towards Christians, rather than people with other beliefs. You’re not angry at other religions. You’re just angry at christianity.
I’m angry that you’ve spent this much time on anger. We’ll never get anywhere with anger. If atheists are the minority then we have to work even harder to make this world work.
Love this…came across this website after reading “Russ Kick” book “Everything you know about God is Wrong”
I’m putting this on my car bumper..do you sell cap sleeve tees??
Thank you for this. It’s concise, clear and constructive, infused with energy, and I’m going to print it for future reference.
Your anger is misdirected. Modern Christianity should be far far down in your list of “evils”. Way too many hospitals,medical clinics,orphanges, feeding centers and schools are run by modern Christians for your anger to be warranted. Especially given the abysmal track record atheism has: Mao,Stalin,Pol Pot, Khmer Rouge,North Korea,Albania,Cuba,the Eastern Bloc Iron Curtain, etc. There are extremely few atheist physicians who devote their lives to full time poverty medicine.Even most of the doctors in the secular “Dr’s without Borders” org. list themselves as being theists of one sort or another. In reality you are a rebel without a worthy cause. Your intellectual energies are misdirected. You are smart, we could really use you out here in healing the sick, feeding the hungry and building schools and orphanages. We need rolled up sleaves much more than we need academic paper tigers. Acta non Verba. With all due respect, academic atheism (which is mostly keyboard Kommando bitching) is an enormous waste of resources. It doesnt dig a single well, feed a single hungry child, hold and comfort a single homeless person. There is a real war being waged, and for the most part, the atheists are marginalized armchair philosophers typing on the sidelines. Run to the sound of the guns,you atheists and you theists!
Well written and well said.
One more thing that amazes me is that the religions seem to demand that I accept, or in the very least, respect, their particular faith over , say, someone who believes in the ancient Creek gods.
Why, my dear godpod, should I show your faith any more respect than someone who believes in fairies?
And do you, godpod, respect the faith of others who differ from you?
Can you tell me why I should respect stupidity just because it is your brand of stupidity?
As one atheist to another all I have to say is:
Bravo.
::applause::
Thank you. You have just expressed in one little blog what I have been feeling for years. Just frelling awesome.
Next time I’m in SF visiting with family, I’d like to buy you and yours a drink.
-selena
atheist in austin tx
Well said, Greta.
I will point out, though, that there’s nothing in your list of anger points that a liberal Christian wouldn’t disagree with, with a few caveats. The one about prayer not being a cosmic shopping list is probably the biggie, but the reason why they don’t like the attack on that idea from atheists is not becuase they generally disagree, but because attack is not the Liberal Christian Way(tm). Liberal Christians shun attack because of the bad history that Christianity has had with it.
Oh, and you should really get over Galileo. Really. It was pure politics. Remember, the Catholic Church had no problem with the same scientific material when Copernicus said it earlier.
I don’t live in the US, so I can’t really comment on the way that so-called “evangelical” Christianity operates in the political sphere, but I will say this: Atheists won’t need to be angry for long.
Once upon a time in the US, anti-slavery activists were angry and obnoxious. Then it was labor unionists, universal sufferage supporters, feminists and so on.
In the 70s and 80s, it was homosexual rights activists’ turn to be angry in my part of the world. Today, they’re not, because there’s pretty much no need to be. Yes, same-sex couples can’t get married here yet, but there’s no need to raise your voice about issues like that any more, because everyone knows it’s just a matter of time.
Everyone needs to remember that if history is any guide, the anger doesn’t need to last for long. The “New Atheism” (ugh) phase will pass, and Atheism will be mainstream. It’ll be replaced by something else, equally important, and I hope then you will focus your anger into helping support that cause.
Love the passion of this post, and I especially agree with your position on the middle ground fallacy– Like if one person says 2+2=4 and the other says 2+2=6 then we should compromise and say that 2+2=5.
Wow, Greta, now I’m angry too!
And yet I’m also encouraged and inspired.
It’s a good feeling. Thank you for lighting that flame.
I followed a link from FriendlyAtheist to read this and just have to say that it is absolutely brilliant. It’s not much of a comment but you deserve some praise for the many things that you’ve said.
This is one of the best treatments of the atheist position I’ve ever read. Seriously Greta, you should clean up the profanity and submit this as an op ed to the NYT or Wash Post. This needs to be widely read!!
How I Learned To Love My Anger, in one easy step:
-read this post; felt so much better. Angrier, but better.
Thank you very much! Please keep up the good work.
I love your opinion. Very smart and well researched. This things makes me angry, upset, fuming and all angryness words you can think of. This is certainly the best ‘in your face’ statement for all anti-atheist out there. They should shut the fuck up. Maybe there’s God but who knows?
He hasn’t got a common decency to exist so why bother?
Here’s to hoping you make it 1000! BTW, I linked to this post back when it first came out and absolutely loved it. You did a wonderful job summing up my feelings. Please keep up the awesome work!
Here’s to hoping you make it to 1000 comments!
I linked to this post on my blog when it first came out because I loved it as it did a wonderful job summing up my feelings on the issue. Keep up the great writing!
A tour de force. I like to invite to all to our Forum and discuss this important topic. Greta, thanks for this post. CT Valley Atheists
Wow. You make me proud, and you make me angry. Thank you.
I think you just gave me a bloggasm. So well said. Some rage, some fury, some fire in the belly can be such a good thing.
You sounded a little bit like Spider Jerusalem, even (and yes, that is *so* meant as a compliment).
I agree most sincerely at you. just recently I told some one I was an athiest and they treated it as if I had a horrible desiese and needed to be cured.
I hope you don’t mind – I have turned this into a meme and tagged a couple of people I know because I find it very refreshing to read about why you are angry and would like to read others’ too 🙂
Fantastic.
Greta,
What a wonderful post! I applaud you with a fierce admiration!!!
What makes me angry? That I have friends who are otherwise very educated, rational beings with a sweet disposition but actually believe and spew religious nonsense which truly doesn’t make sense in any which way you look at it!
It is as if they are hypnotized beyond redemption!
Thank you! Very well put. Very well explained. Where do I order the poster? LOL!
Sincerely,
~M
I’m angry that it’s friday night & I don’t have a sweet ass to rim or a pink pussy to eat!
Superb! A keen sense of atheism combined with a saneness to revolt against the Church and all forms of creationist thoughts. Keep it up. Regards, bala
I could personally relate to so many of the things that you wrote about. I myself, am not atheist but i do not subscribe to any organized religious ideologies. I have read many of the Athiest press pamplets on Christianity and had some laughs about the blatant ripping off of Holiday traditions and rituals that were taken from pagan rites and rituals. I am also very angry whenever Religion is used as a platform for Government policies that effect peoples lives, especially people who do not subscribe to the same beliefs (Me). Yes there are alot of ways in which you can disprove a persons religious beliefs but really, People cling to their beliefs with so much conviction that even when you are right, you will not be heard. And really,people will only see the truth when they are ready. The sad thing is that they will probably never decide to stop saving the ones who do not believe. (which is annoying) but you have to look at them as you would an ignorant child and have some pity for they really are victims of religion, they have their deepest fears used against them every day, and are controlled by them. they will only see when they are willing or when a bad taste has been left in their mouths. I would vote for an Atheist before i would vote for a Christian, or other devout religious believer. I believe in the human spirit and the love that humans can have for one another and that is much more powerful than convictions people have about ideas, or doctrines. Sometimes you have to be the bigger, in this case more educated and caring person. Thanks for writing this.
Also, It has been my conception that Atheists have more developed Moral and ethical responsibility than Christians do, and have fought more toward humanitarian causes, i think people need to understand Atheism and learn this because it does seem that they look at atheism through religious glasses when they think because you don’t believe in Hell than you have no fear of it, that this must mean you are immoral because that is what drives them to be moral or charitable the fear of going to hell. I think you have a great base for educating people maybe by using moralilty and ethics the only thing “Christians” really relate to would be the “what would jesus do?” sort of stance. sorry i forgot to mention this earlier and i thought this was great. ( I stumbled upon this site)
Relax and enjoy life your spending way too much time fighting a god you don’t believe exists. Watch a sunset, paint a picture, play some music or……..
I know a priest who works in Africa, he promotes the use of condoms and has devoted his life to helping people. I know some Christians can be pretty messed up, but some of them are just really really good people. Dont judge too quickly
It’s all too easy to see the pain in the world, and it’s another thing to still see that pain, but also find the beauty.
VERY well said. I’m an atheist, too, and I often find myself torn between wanting to fight the good fight and not wanting to hurt and piss off all my religious friends. I have all this anger and I swallow it more often than I probably should.
But at some point it’s going to be “either-or”.
Thank you. Every single word of this is true.
Well Played!!!!
I for one am done with the “organized religion” slant
I’m not atheist but I’m close
and if there are two things I despise in this world it’s pulpit pimps telling a group what to do.feel.think. and anyone on this green ball that invalidates my feeling and personal thought on life and being wrong.
More often then not it’s a faction of zealot christens that point fingers and tell me I’m wrong for not being like them!
And I for one am angry and tired of their harassment!
Fin
Here in the UK, the Church of England has been running something they call ‘The Alpha Course’ for quite a while. It’s been promoted as a discussion group and life class for people of all faiths and none, examining wider questions of spirituality (or so they say). It has been widely advertised: the first phase of the campaign looked at modern lifestyle trappings – designer clothes, mobile phones flatscreen tvs and so on, and asked “Is this all there is?” Valid enough question, I thought. But the second phase was much odder. The poster showed a small figure stood on top of a mountain peak, arms spread wide in rapturous appreciation of the awesome majesty of the natural world spread out in front of them. And they ran the same strapline – “Is that all there is?” “Madness!” I thought. “Isn’t that enough for anybody?”
I want to start this off saying that I am not part of a religion. I feel that I am a less-bias observer of these events.
I am sorry to hear how religion has affected you negatively, but have you observed how religion affects some people positively?
I like your web page, it might open the eyes of someone. But, I’m afraid of how this hatred might be affecting you.
It doesn’t matter what belief system a person holds- their narrow mindedness is unrelated. (in my opinion) You complain about people being forced to say prayer in the army, and others complain about prayer being forbidden in schools. You complained about the nursing home asking your dad if he was Baptist or a Catholic- but you were in their shoes you might forget the impact of religion completely.
People all live in their own little bubble. I know I live in mine. Science doesn’t claim to know everything- and religion doesn’t claim to tell everything. Each make allowances for errors- and each make their errors.
Anyways- that is what I wanted to say. Listen, or don’t It is up to you.
Bravo!
Brilliant post! And thank you for saying so many things that I’ve wanted to say, only much more eloquently than I’d be able to. You should really consider writing a book on this subject.
Well said. KUDOS!
Excellent piece. I’m glad to see that thought has not been extinguished by fear. Well done.
Whether I agree or disagree really doesn’t matter. What does matter is that the atheists, agnostics, and skeptics of the world are finally starting to speak out and band together.
It’s unfortunate that there are so many responses to your post that just don’t get it.
Be angry, as angry as you want.
The only thing left for me to add to that spectacular synopsis is the affirmation of my being an angry atheist for precisely those reasons as well.
Well wrote, well said…well done all around.
so many lies i cant even count them
Thank you for putting this into words. I wish I could refer my fundamentalist Christian parents to this, by way of explanation. Unfortunately, I know that they would dismiss it out-of-hand. And that is, I think, sad.
I am late into this debate. Your was a great post. What makes me really angry about christians is that so many of them enjoy being ignorant; they don’t have to think for themselves.
Hi Greta,
I followed a link from LiveJournal to read your blog, and I think it is exceptionally eloquent, articulate, and well-written. I agree with most of the points you’ve made in this post, most notably our position in the universe and the issue or right and wrong in atheists. I just want to say thanks for voicing an opinion with which most atheists will probably completely agree.
Hi Greta,
I followed a link from LiveJournal to read your blog, and I think it is exceptionally eloquent, articulate, and well-written. I agree with most of the points you’ve made in this post, most notably our position in the universe and the issue or right and wrong in atheists. I just want to say thanks for voicing an opinion with which most atheists will probably completely agree.
Excellent rant! I agree with you on so many of these points. Funny how Christians went from being oppressed in 0 BC to oppressors who made it illegal to practice non-Christian religion when Constantine converted a few generations later. But, these Christians still claim to be persecuted.
Excellent post. Thank you.
I realize that this post was written some time ago and that you’ve had a lot of comments on it. I just want to say thank you.
Just wanted to say this is a wonderful posting.
You Greta, are a genius!
My personal stance on other people is this: I don’t care if you are black/white/yellow/green, gay/straight/bi, male/female – that doesn’t matter to me. But if you stand in the street yelling “YOU ARE A SINNER! YOU MUST BELIEVE!” at me, then we’ve got a problem…
Incidentally, check out George Hrab’s Geologic Podcast (http://www.geologicpodcast.com/) – apart from being a damn funny show in it’s own right, he does a great segment called “Religious Moron of the Week”!
No, whats sad is that you try to marshall up a lot of points that were made for political purposes and take them as your own personal God’s truth.
Thats why when atheists are ever called fundamentalist at all, because they recite a lot of things which are slights on the truth, but they speak them as if they’re true.
I am not a religious person at all, but the reason there is a fight over culture and values in the country, is because there are two sides to this.
For example, I could respond to many of the issues you brought up, but maybe this one will be instructional:
Galileo was not arrested for his scientific beliefs. Many people inside the Church actually agreed with Galileo, but the Church officially maintained their position, because–being supportive of the sciences themselves–they were defending Aristotle’s view. The Church put out a paper saying that even if Galileo’s theory was right it would not invalidate religious teachings, which were interpretive. Galileo got mad and argued they would invalidate religious teachings. The Church urged Galileo to withdraw his claim to be able to make theological statements. Galileo published a book where he portrayed the Church’s position being taken up by a character named “Simplicitus” which he sought to make a fool of. Galileo continued to refuse to rescind his challenge to the Church on theological grounds. The Papacy, which at that time, had political sovereignty over Rome, which was part of the Papal States, put him under house arrest. By this point, after all of Galileo’s arrogance, the Church did want him to withdraw his scientific position also.
Read any lengthy account of Galileo’s trial.
The reason most people don’t know this, is because the political fight wasn’t necessarily started by religious people. 100 or so years ago, a lot of intellectuals rebelled against Victorian society and tried to overturn everything; art, religion, philosophy, etc, which they viewed as bourgeois and supporting capitalists (yes, it was straightly Marxist, Freudian).
This is a political fight on both sides, where a lot of stupid and ignorant things are said all around.
A lot of your outrage, is based on your belief in one side of the argument, and you should calm down, because things are more complex than one side is destroying the world.
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Thank you for giving voice to my very thoughts. I wish I had such clarity of thought at your tender age. Hell, I wish I had that now. Try to (briefly) disengage once in awhile though. For your health. Then get back to it. I live in Texas. I have raised one son to know reality and managed to help one other person make the transition to rational thought. We each must strive to influence two. My job here is done.
I like the post, I feel like it’s really close to my own feelings but it’s hard for me to read because these things make me really angry and I feel helpless. Like creationism being taught in school, a couple being turned down when they wanted an adoption because they didn’t have a religion, and the government being run by Christians when this is not a theocracy. The fact that it seems like we’re going backwards is ridiculous to me. There is no reason for gay people not to be able to marry other than a religious one and it’s stupid that that is the deciding factor. I don’t like that I have to go home and deal with my parents saying things like “I’ll pray for you.” “Pray to god for it.” And other things with religious connotation and not be able to say anything because they would not listen to me/never talk to me again and I’m not yet 20 and in college. I don’t like that this pushes me pretty far away from them and that it makes me not want to go home longer than two weeks. I don’t like people who are religious that believe that people would have no morals without religion. I don’t like when religions assumes that people are “born bad” whether they realize that they do it or not. I don’t like feeling helpless and trapped in a corner because of religion. And I really don’t like that I grew up thinking sex was wrong and so was any sexual pleasure and now I have to deal with a lot of issues because of it; that is the worst part.
I like the post, I feel like it’s really close to my own feelings but it’s hard for me to read because these things make me really angry and I feel helpless. Like creationism being taught in school, a couple being turned down when they wanted an adoption because they didn’t have a religion, and the government being run by Christians when this is not a theocracy. The fact that it seems like we’re going backwards is ridiculous to me. There is no reason for gay people not to be able to marry other than a religious one and it’s stupid that that is the deciding factor. I don’t like that I have to go home and deal with my parents saying things like “I’ll pray for you.” “Pray to god for it.” And other things with religious connotation and not be able to say anything because they would not listen to me/never talk to me again and I’m not yet 20 and in college. I don’t like that this pushes me pretty far away from them and that it makes me not want to go home longer than two weeks. I don’t like people who are religious that believe that people would have no morals without religion. I don’t like when religions assumes that people are “born bad” whether they realize that they do it or not. I don’t like feeling helpless and trapped in a corner because of religion. And I really don’t like that I grew up thinking sex was wrong and so was any sexual pleasure and now I have to deal with a lot of issues because of it; that is the worst part.
Thank you, I really enjoyed that. You’re a very talented writer, I could feel your anger as I read.
Oh, and I hope your marriage issues out for ya sometime, good luck.
I’m totally behind the times discovering this site but I just wanted to let you know it is fantastic and I’ve forwarded this post to my family and others who feel the same as me.
As my sister says ‘I get so cross about it that I can’t even speak’ which obviously doesn’t help her get her point across, but I feel the same way. I’m not a very articulate person and I really appreciate that you are and that your arguments are so well written, clear and straight-forward. It’s very helpful for a foggy-brained one like me to have someone put into words how I feel. And you don’t even know me 🙂
Thanks again.
I’ve had this bookmarked since it showed up on Butterflies and Wheels in November. I just now got around to reading it.
Thank you for writing it. A link to this post has found its way into my side bar.
I enjoyed reading that, it was excellent! (My family are all atheists) x
You have summed up much of what I have felt, particularly about the marriage issue, in a much more useful and eloquent way than I’ve usually managed.
Such valid and rational points! keep spreading the truth!!!!
Thank you for an excellent essay. I link this page from my blog. Best, Brian Aldrich – abstractconcept.org
My co-editor (Aldrich) turned me on to your awesome essay and I’ve posted links to it on out site: abstractconcept.org
As I remember, christians like to brag now and then about how ANGRY jesus was in the temple. Sincerely, Alice Parent
Bravo! Excellent, excellent piece. This should be read. By everyone. More than once.
“(Of course, to be fair, I also get angry when atheists do the opposite: chalk up every evil thing done in the name of religion as a black mark on religion’s record, but then insist that the good things were done for other reasons and would have been done anyway, etc. Neither side gets to have it both ways.)”
I think that this single comment by you in your piece above pretty much negates most of your posting.
Most people, religious or not, don’t like our culture / society / politics the way it is. Many are angry, but they don’t know who they are angry at. Being angry at “them” or “the system” is worthless because it’s dangerously ineffective. Ineffective because it’s not likely to make lasting change, and dangerous because many innocent people may get hurt.
Being angry “at them” just leads to stupidity like people bombing places where abortions have been done. I’m sure the bombers were full of anger “at them”, too.
When you realize you’re angry because you personally have been victimized, then you have taken a step forward.
Do understand that atheists start from a disadvantage because most of our cultural / social institutions were set up for and by non-atheists. This is a fact. To be angry about history is stupid because you cannot change it. You can work to change the future, but realize it will take a lot of work and there will never be complete success. Such work is hard enough without wasting your energy on anger.
There are plenty of people around — religious or not — that want to force their beliefs on others, and use a variety of reasons to try to excuse doing so.
To say “atheists want” or “the religious want” or “Catholics want” or even “Baptists in Georgia” want is to do everyone a disservice. Such a generalization will inevitably misrepresent some people.
Like me, for example.
If someone believes in God, that’s *their* business. If they don’t, that’s *their* business. Each can talk to the other about their *personal* reasons to the other. If someone wants to change their beliefs, that’s their choice.
Choice, not coercion.
Don’t waste your opportunity to communicate: tell others in a personal way of the substance of your beliefs. Personal stories are always more effective.
Writing the way you did, you are just participating in the foolishness, especially if you’re just “stirring the pot”. Don’t “preach to the choir”: it’s ineffective. But don’t overgeneralize and lose your effectiveness as well as waste your forum.
I’ve read a lot of things by atheists and “religious” people that are so full of misinformation that I want to scream. “The religious” make this worse this by believing the most incredibly silly things — things that their own religion don’t say yet they picked up from somewhere.
I think that atheists could do the “religious” a favor simply by lovingly debunking their myths. This does not mean saying “Jesus sucks!” but does mean saying “I read the Bible and I don’t see anywhere it says that by doing good you go to heaven and by doing bad you go to hell”. (Obviously this example is Christian-oriented).
And “the religious” could talk about their belief and demonstrate — by action — what they believe.
Now it’s my turn to generalize: Christians (or whomever) need to learn to not be so uptight, and atheists need to learn that the religious faith of others will have elements of inexplicability to it. After all, it *is* faith: if one could explain everything about God, than what good is He?
Discussion is not to be feared, but welcomed.
lol. I’m a Muslim teenager and was really confused by an atheism vs religion debate in my college. I didn’t really know much about atheists before I read your post. As far as the debate went, they got down to u suck, no u suck.. :S Thanks. Your perspective helped me understand a few things.
The question of “Why do you have to be so angry? has been asked of me so often by Believers/christians that I want to puke. No…really, its definitely felt by me as a further ‘attack’, much like the evangelising I’ve had forced down my throat by family members for years and now online when I post at Walkaway from Fundamentalism etc.
When I analyse the question, its not a query or a signal of concern, its a judgement. A dismissive, down grade of my opinions, my beliefs and my right to voice them. Often the trendy christian lingo of ‘bitter’ is rolled out just to enforce the value of their membership in their particular religious corporation.
On another level, I feel as if I’m being asked to justify my emotions about something that is of no concern to the ‘believer’ or anyone else for that matter. My emotions belong to me.
Being asked to justify immediately puts me on the defensive. I think its a sloppy old tactic for the believer to put themselves on that familiar old pedestal. Not only is the smugness apparent but the answer to the question is already known by the believer. From my experiences the believer very rarely ask questions they don’t think they know.
I don’t feel anyone needs to answer or inform the believer ‘why you are angry’. Fuck em’.
However.. its important to express your feelings in anyway….I think the next time I”m asked this question by a believer I think I’ll ignore them or perhaps ask them to justify their ‘feelings’ ..”why are you coming across to me as being so fucking arrogant” ….eh..maybe I’ll just say…”I’m having my own spiritual experience”
One of things that amuse me so much about the ‘believer’ is their sense of humor or lack thereof. Much of my so called ‘anger’ is flat out pissing my pants hilarity…..I’ve hardly ever experienced ONE single emotion at one time..its always a whole bunch of em’.
Regarding the facts and figures, the attitudes & behaviours, the injustices, the dominance, abuses etc in your list Greta…who in their right mind wouldn’t be outraged by outrageous things.!
I have been visiting this site a lot lately, so i thought it is a good idea to show my appreciation with a comment.
Thanks,
Jim Mirkalami
Embrace the warm glow of godlessness! Feel it! Embrace it!
Greta, you warm my heart. You express what I feel/think so accurately, honestly and intelligently…thanks.
Are you willing to be cloned? (I have some connections…)
🙂
I agree with a LOT of the things you had to say. Organized religion is a mess and is responsible for so many horrible wars and genocides, etc. But reading this, it doesn’t actually seem like you are an atheist, it just seems like you are an anti-Christian.
I thought I was the only one with these thoughts ! I’m surrounded by a sea of “god is loving” & “How can you not believe in God?” … It is maddening. Atheists are like tigers being poked and proded by ignorant little kids. And when the tiger sets things straight, she/he looks like the messd up one, not the kids throwing rocks & stones at the tiger ! (sigh) … Well glad i found this place !!
Wow, you sound like a very angry atheist homosexual woman.
I am really glad you got that off my chest. What a therapeutic experience… Thank you.
I read your ‘reply to the comments’ post, but I still wanted to let you know that this piece absolutely speaks for my feelings on this subject 100% and that I, too, will be using this as reference for “jeez what reason do you have to be angry?”. I loved this rant; you’re so eloquent!
Also, reading all the idiotic comments some people have left – for instance, chastising you for ignoring the good things religion has done, or commenting on what an angry person you are, or saying that THEY aren’t like that, don’t blame THEM – just makes me GLORIOUSLY ANGRY on your behalf, because they couldn’t take the time to read your entire post before spewing their rage at you.
I’m a follower of the Hare Krishna philosophy, and I gotta tell you, I actually agree with most of your points. Religion is often used as a tool for spreading hate of those whose “beliefs” don’t match their own. I’ve found that stupidity in my own faith, not to mention everyone else I’ve investigated and/or practiced.
Regarding your point on people treating parts of scripture as literal and other parts as metaphore – My spiritual master, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, was very firm on the fact that all parts of scripture are to be taken literally. Yes, he had to explain and clarify some points in Vedic books for Western audiences, but he never said, “This is what I make of this verse”. No, he was pretty firm in saying, “This is what this verse means.”
In Vedic belief, we are in the Age of Kali, or the Age of Conflict, and one symptom is that religious texts get changed to fit the whims of the translators. I’ve studied parts of the original Hebrew that make up the Old Testament. Same-sex relationships aren’t condemned in the Bible – the places where homosexuals are condemned are actually levelled at temple prostitutes and pedophiles, both of which I can understand God condemning! And there are two same-sex marriages there, too.
The hot button for me to add to your list is religious people who condemn people of other faiths whose teaching basically agree with their own! I say this because I attend a Xtian church with my boyfriend, and the teaching of the pastor are very enlightening, but he does like to condemn other faiths. He’s condemned Hinduism, but at least once every sermon, he’s said something that is consistent with Vedic teachings.
We agree, but because it’s not in Hebrew or uses the same exact name or image of God, he has to condemn my beliefs. Funk dat!
The fun thing is that he teaches that all Hindu beliefs are evil, but one book in the vedas, called Bhavishya Purana, backs up Biblical history, from the Garden of Eden to Noah to Moses to Mohammad to Jesus Himself (Jesus chants Hare Krishna, BTW – it’s in there!), it’s all there. So to call Vedic scripture false is to condemn Christian scripture.
Christians and Muslims have more anger and hatred than most atheists and competing religions! Why?! Someone who’s close to God shouldn’t be angry or have a disturbed mind. That’s just a simple fact. Then again, because of Hare Krishna, I have very high standards for Christians that most just don’t live up to (I can count on one hand those I’ve met that do).
I don’t personally agree with Atheism, but judgement is not my place and I’ll fight for the right of any Atheist to be such. Either all viewpoints are allowed expression, or none are.
My word of advice for anyone who wants to judge God based on what Christians say or do: Don’t condemn God for what His fan club does. They’re fallible and often very stupid and can’t think for themselves. God and religion are seperate. Religions will always die and turn to ash, but God won’t. God says in the final chapter of Bhagavad Gita: Abandon all varieties of religion and simply surrender unto Me.
To quote a favorite comic of mine: And that’s my opinion, I could be wrong. 🙂
You are all filled with reasons to be angry being apparently the most common not getting what you think you deserve. Guess what? Life isnt fair, just live the way you want it and face consecuences. God, satan, mighty mouse it fuckin doesnt matter. You want to be gay, atheist, circus clown? be it, but face the real world! stop asking for understanding or relief. Change the world yourself for you not because its good or right.That is the ultimate theist lie. We arent either good or bad we are humans. Ask yourself; have you ever lied? illthreated someone or did something against the law? We live based on our interest and ambitions. Atheism,god,people in USA calling football soccer, me being not able to afford a new car , all this think suck. What should I do about it? Face it and try to become the best i can be. BTW blogs are for funny videos and piracy. Have fun convincing yourself you’re right.
I agree with just about everything you say, with one exception.
There is nothing, at all, that states that you have to learn about anyone else’s religion to the point that you are an expert on it.
I’m glad you did. Undoubtedly it’s helped you make your decision and be happier with it, but you don’t get taught enough about it in school to be any kind of authority. You went out of your way to do so, but there was, is, nothing forcing you to. I sympathise with your knowing more and listening to them spouting inaccurate crap, but you never specifically had to put yourself in the position where you got angry about it.
I don’t get angry every time someone tells me they know how to synthesise cocaine, and I’ve never heard any of them get it right so far. (FYI, I’m a PhD chemist, not a drug addict)
It’s the only thing I didn’t agree with in the entire article. I see more why you get angry, and I agree there are an awful lot of crass fuckwits who do horrible, horrible things in the name of faith.
They make my side look bad.
Thank you for trying take people as you find them, and not tar with the same brush. I hope you never get angry enough for that to change. I’d have to start disagreeing with you a lot more if you did.
I’ve said enough, and this is your blog. Flame if you wish, but I only agree with 99% of what you say.
You so got everything right there. Especially angriness. Said with poignance and truth in every word.
15 year old british kid, who refuses to do any work in religious education for the sheer falseness in it all. thank you so much, greta, you nailed everything.
Can I get an amen?
Fantastic article. Restores my faith in faithlessness. If you ever want something more to be angry about, check out this site:
http://www.truechristian.com/hovind.html
This guy got his “PhD” from, I kid you not, Patriot Bible University in Del Norte, CO. (The school’s symbol is a big bible on an American flag background. All it needs is a machine gun.)
Hi there
I am a practicing Christian, however I do not label myself religious, nor do I subscribe to any demonination.
That I chose that path is no indication that I disagree with another’s own choices.
I have one exception though.
That is atheism.
It is fundamentally impossible to prove that there does not exist a deity of sorts, yet every probability that you can, and there does indeed.
While I agree that science is logical and imperative to modern life, I do not agree that it and God are mutually exclusive.
I also believe that the Creation and evolution co-existed. Prove me wrong, I doubt you can…
Above it all is this so-called sixth sense, that which humans are incapable of understanding.
Science has proven that the human brain can only perform within under 10% of it’s capacity and theoretical capability, yet cannot rationalise or explain it.
I don’t know either, but I’d like to think that something other than purely man-made science has the ability to and the answer for it.
A staunch belief on the part of some that no higher intelligence exists, in my opinion, is merely proof that those people are ignorant, naïve and shallow.
But don’t take my word for it, hear it from over eighty-six percent (86%) of the population of the planet.
To finish up real quick I’ll add that I fully accept the prejudices and attacks of whosoever should take exception, but since speech is free, the liberty is mine; homosexuality, while admittedly intriguing, is warped and inhuman by design, by definition and by any other standard you measure.
Perhaps if you accept these things you might feel a little less angry.
But then, this is me talking.
Still, I think you have a fantastic blog, it was insightful and insipid and I loved it.
I myself have been a proud atheist for about 30 years. I’ve never hidden this choice and I defend it vigorously in the face of opposing view points.
However, my fav story is this: I did a lot of helpful things, including mowing the lawn, of an elderly couple who lived across the street from my wife and I. One day I was walking around the outside of their house with the husband, explaining what I had done to the bushes and flowers on one side of the house, when he told me how much he appreciated my work. He then went on to say that he thought I might really enjoy going to his son’s church to hear him preach. Their family is Mormon and that’s fine by me.
At this moment I had a choice to make: tell him the truth (as I have always done about my being an atheist) or just try to change the subject. I was actually afraid of offending him and I didn’t wish to as my wife and I really liked our elderly neighbors across the street.
I turned to him and said “Richard, I’m an atheist. So is my wife.” As we continued to walk he was quiet for a moment and then said “Well that’s just fine. You’re great neighbors and that is far more important.”
And a great neighbor I was considering I mowed their lawn weekly (and in Florida that lasts 9-months out of the year) and performed other around-the-house projects as needed, while I was working 25-hours a week, finishing university, being a father, husband, pet owner and home owner.
If only more folks had the intelligence and compassion to see that I’m no different than they. As an atheist it seems many believe I eat the hearts of babyies or sacrifice virgins.
Awesome, It is perfectly ok to be angry, I get angry at least once a day at religion, it’s just the human in me I guess. Religion has held back progress for so long it’s crazy to think where we could be today with technology. If the chritians would just investigate religion they would find most of it is just based on astrology and religions that came before this particular Solar Messiah!
Thank you. That was brilliant!
Your beautifully articulated impatience with the malevolent silliness of the petulant desperadoes is like oxygen.
And your ability to maintain laser-sharp clarity while expressing utterly justifiable fury, clear-headedness and focussed contempt is soooo enviable. I’d love to see you sitting on a panel with Judge Judy and Joan Rivers, meting out just deserts, ridicule and irrefutable correction. Please consider posting your ‘Anger’ piece on – ExChristian.net. I’m sure they would find it invaluable.
wrt JY’s comment:
“strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles” (from Dictionary.com).
By that definition, no text is required, and I’m sure there are some atheists who could aptly be described as ‘fundamentalist’, in this sense.”
This definition may not require a text, but it does require adherence to “a set of basic ideas or principles”. Atheists do not necessarily adhere to any common set of ideas or principles. The only thing that atheists necessarily have in common is that they do not believe in gods.
wrt JY’s comment:
“strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles” (from Dictionary.com).
By that definition, no text is required, and I’m sure there are some atheists who could aptly be described as ‘fundamentalist’, in this sense.”
This definition may not require a text, but it does require adherence to “a set of basic ideas or principles”. Atheists do not necessarily adhere to any common set of ideas or principles. The only thing that atheists necessarily have in common is that they do not believe in gods.
Just a quick correction: the Gallup poll link about Americans not voting for an atheist candidate has now changed to http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/Some-Americans-Reluctant-Vote-Mormon-72YearOld-Presidential-Candidates.aspx
Check out the above URL for a good chuckle… How true, how true. Preacher’s daughter here, and have damned to hell and back again for living my life my way and standing up and pointing out the inadequacies of the bible when my actions have been damned citing chapter and verse. I LOVED this blog. Thank you for summing it up so completely.
Hmm… I guess the URL didn’t post there. Try this:
http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/addiscartoon.jpg
I’ve read all of this, and i am christian. i agree with alot of what is written, but you have to turn it the other way around. whenever christians don’t have the answer from the bible- it’s proof that there is no god, just like your saying a gap in science. and i get angry that atheists only notice the christian groups that force their religion on people or apply it to the government. my mom is a missionary, i’ve met alot of christians, and the majority of them are not like that. you don’t look at the good aspects of religion, only the bad. and the ideals in chrisitanity are about being accepting and appreciating everyone- and no persecution b/c EVERYONE sins. humans are the ones tampering with the ideals of religion. and the christians that get most noticed- not the majority- are the ones on the street yelling about gays. the REAL christians who interpret the ideals of christianity are the people quietly helping the people around them. doing mission work. and out of the whole christianity relm, i’d say only 10% of them are people like the ones you listed in here. whereas atheists stereotype all christians into this category.
have an orgasim.
have an orgasim.
You’re fuckin retarded. I hope some guys bomb your house bitch. You in Ingrid will never be married legally in america, you filthy whore. You’re better off having sex with you dad, and licking your moms clit. 🙂 thanks and have a great day.
First of all, I applaud your rant. I am not atheist – I consider myself a semi-Pagan agnostic if you’d like to try to puzzle that one out (don’t bother; I still haven’t figured it out myself yet) – but I understand your sentiments, as I live in an incredibly religious town just north of the Bible Belt. There are about a billion churches here of nearly every denomination (including Unitarian and Christian Scientist) but nowhere that atheists or Wiccans can go to share their beliefs or thoughts safely. Being anything other than any denomination of “Christian” here is unsafe and probably not in your best interests. I didn’t grow up in a religious household and my in-laws are mostly agnostic or pagan, but the majority of my friends have been either Christian or Mormon (frightening). It’s a difficult position to be in when you’re the only one that’s different.
I find it amusing that there are so many critiques on here (that you answered so gracefully) accusing you of bigotry and of being hypocritical; posts denouncing your thoughts as stupid, pointless, and useless. Moreso, I am amused by the snarky, sarcastic commentary coming from unidentified sources and from self-proclaimed Christians.
Wasn’t part of the teaching of the Bible to love thy neighbor (in fact, didn’t you mention that)? I don’t remember it being mentioned anywhere that it was all right (or even acceptable) to wander the Internet, looking for people to insult and criticize, which is all they’re doing. I suppose if they want to feel big, the only way they can do it is online where they don’t have to look another human being in the eye and say those things, but it’s sad. Makes me wonder what sort of things they experienced that have traumatized them to the point of feeling like they have to blast their beliefs back in your face – after all, you didn’t demand that they read your blog. Moreso, I wonder what miracles God has performed on their lives to make them believe so fiercely in something they can’t prove exists. I know most will say “I’ve had a relatively happy life,” but so have I, and God hasn’t had a single thing to do with that, in my opinion.
I wish you and Ingrid good luck. I can only hope that someday this “God-fearing” nation will find it in its heart to elect someone who will push for all states to acknowledge that the love between a homosexual couple is JUST AS VALID and REAL as the love between a heterosexual couple.
You go, girl.
Thank you, Greta, for articulating it all so well. Great to know I’m not alone in my anger.
Thank you, Greta, for articulating it all so well. Great to know I’m not alone in my anger.
Of the points I read, they’re all very valid. (I got slightly bored, it’s late and I have a short attention span xP) I’m a Christian, and I agree very much with you.
I’m anger too.
“Science has proven that the human brain can only perform within under 10% of it’s capacity and theoretical capability, yet cannot rationalise or explain it.”
Someone else hasn’t heard of snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp
Have you ever heard a doctor say, “…But luckily when the bullet entered his skull, it only damaged the 90% of his brain he didn’t use?” Of course not!
IIâm sorry religious people make you angry. Particularly Christians.
I say this because, as a Christian, many of them make me angry too.
I cringe when I see them robbing people of their money and not using it for what they claim to be using it for.
Iâm sick when I read about the history of the Catholic Church killing innocents in the name of God, much the same way Radical Muslims are doing today. Or when they sold people shortened sentences in a Purgatory only created to bring in more money to the Church.
I hear of a Christian burning down an abortion clinic, a Christian beating a man because heâs gay, churches not allowing people into their circles because of criminal past, and it makes just wish I am not a part of the same religion that these people are.
But it doesnât make me wish I wasnât a Christian, at least no more than one man beating his wife makes me want less to be a husband. But it does make me wish Christians were better examples of Christ, better followers of the tenants in which they believe.
There are some things in your list of hate that I would like to apologize for. For the bad example Christians have provided, for the injustices you feel have befallen you, for the asinine things done âin the name of God.â
I am all for anyone being able to be free without discrimination to believe or disbelieve what they will. Whether you believe in God or not, it is no humanâs place to judge another and tell them that an eternity of fire and brimstone waits for them.
Even if you donât believe in God, heaven, hell, or the Wizard of Oz, we an agree that no human should have that power.
But on the other hand, there are some things that I wouldnât apologize for. Thatâs the Christians who, in a loving way reach out to people in their communities. These are the Christians who do not require a homeless man to say a prayer before giving him a meal, or a warm place to stay.
And I wonât apologize for compassionate Christians who devote their lives to spreading their beliefs out of love for other people, not because they hate Atheists or Buddhists, but because they truly have a joy in God and they want others to have at least the opportunity to accept that joy also.
I have more of the attitude you probably want from a Christian. I feel sure of my faith and I have no need to argue about it. But I am also under the idea of live and let live. If you ask me, Iâll tell you what I believe, but if you obviously do not want to hear about it, I will back off. Wonât pushing the issue only make you more embittered against my viewpoint anyway?
So, not only will I not defend the first time, but I will admonish them.
But not only will I not apologize for the second type, but I admire them. Whether you believe it or not, these people make big sacrifices, not for some treasures in heaven or because of some fear of the wrath of God, but because they want to help people, and spreading the belief that helped them is the best way they know how to do that.
I love you. I absolutely love you. I could not have said it any better. I am angry about those same things myself! You did a wonderful job of expressing not only yours, but the thoughts of other people as well. Well done, I say. Well done!!
I wanted to take time to thank you for this interesting site. I found it to be helpful and full of great information. I look forward to more being posted in the future.
(name and URL deleted due to commercial content – GC)
Very good, Glad to see the long list of favorable comments!
I’ve had a wretched weekend and just randomly stumbled on your site and it made me happy because I agree with you. So thanks for taking the time to put it all in writing. x
Get over it bitch. Maybe if you had a god he’d save you.
As we say down here in the antipodes,
Fuckin’ Oath!
Means, right on, my oath on it!
I’m an angry athiest and I say it LOUD! I hope it pisses them off!
Red ragging, trade unionist fundie mocking, secular, socialist, beer drinking fuckin’ atheist with a punk/metal soundtrack that sends jebus freaks, pervert priests and no-fun, no sex jihadist wankers running for the hills 😉
Stay angry, you have the fucking right to be angry! If they question your anger just say the words “Jihad”, “Spanish Inquisition”, “Pogroms”, “Fred Phelps” and, oh yeah “Get Fucked!”, that usually clinches it.
Angry, Atheist and Proud!
Good Loki you have a lot of responses! Congratulations on breaking 1000. Atta girl!
Great Post,
I am pretty much angry on the same topics myself!
Sorry Dweeb, I mean Dude, a god to save me from what? You mean I won’t get time to spend with Santa Claus?
“Wow, you sound like a very angry atheist homosexual woman.”
Sigh. What a failure. She was trying to sound like a very angry atheist bisexual woman. Oh, well, three out of four isn’t bad
Wow. That is a lot of anger. I don’t think I want you on my side. I wish you would pity and educate the undereducated instead you choose to be angry. Not good for your karma account.
agree with you 100% on all the points….was born a hindu and I deal with similar situations with the “believers” around me…..
Doesn’t the diaghram say that 55% would vote for atheis president? Still a reason to be angry for those 45% ;P
I have a simple solution for your anger. Prove that Atheism doesn’t mean that when you die, your lifeless carcass isn’t just thrown into a wooden box or burned to ashes, that your time isn’t up and that’s it and you no longer exist in any form whatsoever and you no longer even have a bit of existence or conscienceness or even the tiniest bit of influence left on the world, and you’ll never have to be angry with obnoxious religious beliefs. Until then, put a warm compress over your eyes once in awhile.
I read your article and aside from the language, agree with you on your sentiments. Too many are convinced that for some one to have a different belief system or no belief system at all they are a danger some how. NOT SO!!!
I help lead a group called The People of Abraham, Christians Muslims and Jews. Try and imagine what kinds of comments and EMails I get from the super religious!!
Stand your ground you are after all still a human being !!
Rev. Bruce…………Tawodi
Anger tempered in the fires of reason is the greatest weapon we have for change in our society. Religion has been used as an excuse for immoral behavior since the begining of recorded history. Most of the anger I have have as an atheist stems from the contradictions of religious belief and practice, especially in the US.
While not mutually inclusive there is a high correlation between fundamentalist religion and civil religion. In the US this often amounts to a contradiction of religious law based on the Bible and Constitutional law based on the writings of our largely non-fundamentalist founding fathers. We restrict rights of others that cause no harm to society or individual, in contradiction of the spirit of freedom laid down as the basis for our country, simply because religious law of a certain section of society find certain passages in their ancient mythology that forbid that life choice.
If we rely on ancient texts rather than the reason of our own minds as the basis for our society then we cannot move forward as we grow in understanding (through observation and experimentation) of the universe. While anger helps to motivate me in fighting for my freedom from religion fear is just as large a motivation. While I hold onto the hope that the truth will out, as is has done in the past for scientific findings, I fear that humanity could regress into the tribal society that most religions represent. Religion gives people easy answers and rational explanations are often complex or require a foundation of knowledge to understand. I fear that lack of education and/or laziness may be the largest impediment to our understanding of truth. Belief should never supplant truth based in reason or we will cease to be rational beings and enter a societal downward spiral into magical thinking. Anger and fear have often been the tools of religion and I hope they will also be its downfall.
I have a simple solution for your anger. Prove that Atheism doesn’t mean that when you die, your lifeless carcass isn’t just thrown into a wooden box or burned to ashes, that your time isn’t up and that’s it and you no longer exist in any form whatsoever and you no longer even have a bit of existence or conscienceness or even the tiniest bit of influence left on the world,
I have a challenge for you, prove the converse, that when one dies that consciousness persists after death.
“I have a challenge for you, prove the converse, that when one dies that consciousness persists after death.”
But that’s not the point, is it? It isn’t whether or not you actually continue after death, but the _possibility_ of it that continues to fuel religion. What would you prefer, to gently move to a new plane where your consciousness continues, where you meet passed loved ones and persist to watch the world move on, or they throw your lifeless body in a box? Where, if you were to get hit by a streetcar crossing the street tomorrow, or the doctor comes into the exam room and drops the hammer that you have metasticized cancer and you will be dead in a few month, then that’s it, blankness.
I realize that the sane thing is to just try and live what time you have on this Earth well, without molesting young boys or flipping the bird at people on your morning commute or ignoring somebody in distress, but hey… everlasting life sounds pretty good too, sign me up!
Wow–thanks so much for so eloquently summing up the injustices we atheists recognize every day. I particularly like the way you pointed out the great contradition of Christians living in our Christian nation believing that they are being persecuted. Has there ever, in the history of mankind, been such a powerful group playing the martyrs?
I’m not sure I agree with you that anger is a tool. It is, after all, possible for a group to have so much anger that they end up screwing themselves. Take, for example young African American/ Latino street thugs who drop out of school and sell
drugs–I don’t think their anger is helping their cause any. I’d say anger lights a fire under us, spurring us to take action. We then must pick up the real tools (education, intelligence, confidence, etc) that will help us win battles.
I’m just nit-picking, of course. Again, very, very good post.
“Wealthiest and most powerful country in the world”
As an atheist, and from the post above, I would of thought you would be a rational being. From where did you draw the above fact from? It sounds an awful lot like that dogma so many Americans spew out. According to the CIA factbook, in terms of GDP- per capita, the US is only 6th.
What do you mean by power? Military spending, numbers of troops or other? Do you know this for a fact, or is it just something you believe.
As for you saying that anger is “a tool that no social change movement has ever been able to do without”.
Just because it is what other people used, is no reason to use it again. If we are arguing for reason and rationality, do not argue with emotions, it sends mixed, contradictory messages. Why dont we make an effort to do this without resorting to anger? Be the first, break the mold.
I dont need to hate a rapid dog, or be angry with one to see that it should be put down (just an example, dont crucify me for this). Same goes for this. I am going to take part in an anti-religious movement based on reason alone.
Side note: Why do non-religious people want to get married? Marriage is either: A contract under god (for the religious, with gods)or, as far as I can see, it is an agreement to spend your lives together, which I see as a very superficial thing. Id only do it for legal benifits.
wonderful! i’m a christian, but i really appreciated this and i hope i can reach outside of my own paradigm to see the value of another’s perspective…
i get angry at all this too.
I think a lot of your anger is misplaced. I think that passion is important, and you show that you have that; but you also seem blatantly stubborn about your rightness in the face of other’s wrongness, even though you seem to deny such rightness and wrongness.
Condoms won’t solve AIDS.
http://gotjustice.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/why-condoms-wont-solve-aids/
The Galileo affair is seldom understood.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Galileo_Controversy.asp
Yes, some Christians are hypocrites, but this is no news flash, for even the very scriptures Christians hold dear admit this. (And let’s be fair, you’re against most specifically a group or sects of Christians most specifically in this post).
As one who has passed from Atheism to Agnosticism and into the Oldest branch of Christianity, I used to feel similar on many of these issues.
Just don’t stop asking “Could I myself be mistaken on something here” and you’ll do fine…
Perhaps I’m way off here, but as a person who is more agnostic than anything else, seems to me atheist are becoming the new fundamentalists. The commonality i see amongst any type of fundamentalist, be them Christian, Muslim, vegan etc etc is this insipid need to be right and anyone who has a differing opinion to be wrong… its all rather old hat. If you want to believe in a god, thats dandy, don’t want to? good enough for you, good enough for me. think eating animals is barbaric? don’t eat em. my point here is that believe whatever it is you will, and let everyone else be what they need to be. I think its high time we get over things that happened several hundreds of years ago, and seeings as not a one of us can prove our beliefs (thusly why they are called beliefs and not facts)lets stop trying to pretend we have answers that not of one of us could back up. Resentment is like drinking a bottle of draino yourself and hoping it kills someone else, so we need to get over them whether or not they are justified or not.
Peter – non-religious people want to get married for the same reason religious people do – because they love each other and want to celebrate their union with their family and friends. You may see this as “a very superficial thing”, but for others it’s very important indeed.
As for only doing it for the legal benefits – my inner twelve year old is going, “psh, DUH!” The whole reason gays are fighting so hard to be allowed to use the term marriage is because of those legal benefits. If there was a completely equivalent legal union open to all adult couples – call it civil partnership, or common-law spousedom, heck, call it chocolate ice cream for all I care – I’m sure many people would go for it like a shot and let “marriage” go hang. The privileges that go with being a legally married couple are not trivial. I’m fortunate enough to live in a country where gay marriage is legal, and it’s not just symbolic posturing – it has made a serious difference in the lives of many, many people.
This was a fantastic post. I’m definitely bookmarking this one.
I find myself getting more and more annoyed (angry even) with the intolerance towards atheists and any questioning / criticism of religious doctrine.
I only wish I could respond in the thorough and eloquent manner that you have!
Thank you.
Two things to say: Keep yelling!!! You’re so right with this… and: read Nietzsche and Richard Dawkin, it’ll give you ammo for debate without having to read those fantasies they call holy-books…
** nihilistic xian ideology born of unceasing resentment **
For 2,000 years one hallmark of xianity has remained its hatred of natural science and sceptical philosophy. The Stoics and Epicureans of Athens laughed at Paul of Tarsus when he spoke to them. Paul’s anti-intellectual (and anti-jewish) rejoinder is still holy writ:
20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22-Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23-but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles . . . .
1Cor1 20-23 NIV
In short, Paul and his fellow revenge seekers created a god sharing their nihilistic values.
27-But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28-He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised thingsâand the things that are notâto nullify the things that are . . . . 1Cor1:26-28 NIV
Xianity still appeals to those who believe themselves mistreated. To those in whom resentment surges. To those who must punish their guilty selves. To those who must blame others.
Xianity is practical nihilism. Directed inward, hatred of self. Directed outward, hatred of others and the world.
This is not some peripheral ideological stance — it is the dark heart and sick soul of Paulâs life-negating world view, tarted up as a religion of âloveâ.
bipolar2
You blog, girl!!!
Im so glad i stumbled upon this, i too am an angry atheist you pretty much summed it up more power to you girl!
I’m so glad i stumbled on this.
I actually read out the whole post to my husband.
You’ve said everything my husband and i talk about – and provoked a lengthy conversation on the matter.
We’re both strong atheists; he was raised Catholic, i was raised with several strains of christianity but by young adolesence we both came to the conclusion that it just didn’t make sense – it was completely absurd, and so much of this angers me too; most incredibly, the insane amount of hypocrisy present in society with regards to the religionb vs atheism.
We both believe that you should not need someone else to be your moral compass – most of this is patently obvious to me.
Do not murder, thieve or hate – it’s blatantly obvious these things are BAD! It puzzles me how people cannot think for themselves.
I have met nice religious people. I’ve always said that the stupider ones seem to have the loudest voice – and make the rest look bad.
But keep your chin up, we both identify with everything you’ve said – much of this is why i don’t pay any attention to TV etc because i’m sick of being angry all the time.
Usually i lurk around on blogs and rarely comment.
But this struck a chord with me so much that after reading only two paragraphs i had to read it out.
Keep yelling, and keep trying.
That was great…it was almost as if you took the words right out of my mouth. And I really hope that you and Ingrid can get married someday…good luck to both of you!
THANK YOU!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:
Thanks so much. Religion is like an opiate, a cancer. I want it to end now.
I was so captivated by your post! I totally agree with every point you made and applaude you for saying how I, as a fellow atheist, feel so eloquently. Bravo!!
I accidently clicked on this link Mercurious when I was going to IM you. I must say, let’s face it…You are just angry. And with good justification.
I happen to believe in something greater than mankind myself. I’m not sold on any religious doctrine or practice. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and anyone of any faith, certainly has had to doubt their beliefs at some time or other.
Yes, your blog here definitely makes me question my beliefs and points out some glaring hypocrocies and inconsistencies with any religious sect. Forget the catagorizations, stereotyping and whatnot associated with “my belief is better than yours”. We are meant to evolve and grow as a people, the human race. And too many wars were fought for all the wrong reasons in this world. Especially religious battles, and crusuades. And while I won’t pretend to know what all you actually believe in my man, I will give you a chance to present your feelings and defend your right to do so.
There needs to be an altruistic center, a balance that helps mankind interact and realistically see himself and his relationship to this world around him. Monumental as that may seem, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize what is good and right. A mind, unfettered with limitations, prejudice, ego, selfishness, or fear can do great things and be a benefit to all those around him. And wouldn’t this be a far better discipline than blind acceptance.
Man, I’m surprised you can even begin to have a sense of humor like you do with all this weighing so heavily on you. Your friend, Tony
I wholeheartedly agree.
When I was in the 5th grade, my parents moved us to a place with shitty schools, because of that, I was placed in a private christian school. I still remember vividly the descriptions of hell they gave and can definitely say they scared the shit out of me. It’s pretty pathetic the lengths some will go to to scare people into faith. We were 10 years old, there was no reason to say those things to us!
Regardless, I didn’t much belong there, I was chided daily because I asked too many questions and told my history professor that I KNOW the earth isn’t 6K years old because I knew that dinosaurs lived 60 million years ago, so there!
But, yeah, thanks for this post, it’s a very accurate depiction of my thoughts on the subject and more eloquent than I could ever be in light of my anger.
PS- found you thru StumbleUpon.
i really agree with your article.
all this religios crap make me sick.
Great!
I get angry when atheists don’t actually do all their homework…….
I had a smile on my face while reading this entire article. Great job!
I feel you, sister. I’m just as angry.
Greta, All I can say is WOW !! You are very eloquent and have said everything that resides in my mind. I guess most of us who have sometime in our lives thrown out the garbage that was forced upon us as children carry this anger. Although I through off the religious yoke at 9 years old, it took me until I was 25 before I could stop feeling guilty for masturbating. Those thoughts forced into our minds in tender years are insidious and cause us psychological damage for years.
So thank you for a great article that expresses all our (atheist) views.
I wish you love,
… I think I love you.
THANK you, I stumbled across this blog and it reminded me of the reasons why Religion is so unsafe.
For Dawkins and Randi and the rest of the so-called “critical thinkers”…
The *MODEL* of mental health:
“Look at the ANGLE OF THE KEY….see that, see that….”
what a fucking idiot this Randi is…..a REAL CRITICAL THINKER…..
Visit:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/3283/P0/
to see how we stopped James Randi’s fraudulent MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL challenge…..
watch carefully the consequences of Randi’s *idea*âŠ..
For over 40 years James Randi Zwigert (is this even a REAL NAME?) has had total control over who and how the testing was conducted, yet despite all this he has terminated the challenge.
The ONLY REASON why the challenge was stopped is because he lost and refused to pay.
PS: Love the IRONY of the BULLSHI*T sign over Randi’s ugly little head
http://www.rock-explosion.com/images/finger.jpg
http://www.rock-explosion.com/images/finger.jpg
Anger is good motivation, yes, but remember to temper it with reason and understanding, or you’re little better than the hate screaming fundie on the other side of the fence, saying unto the world that your view is correct because it happens to be different.
The longest lasting changes are those that come from within.
I’ve had to attend a private Christian school for two years; recently, I found I was being denied the chance to return for senior year because I took part in the Day of Silence protest against the bullying of homosexuals in schools.
Truth be told, for the disgustingly far-right image the institution seems to portray, the way in which I presented myself won most of the student body to me before the end of the day: I stated clearly in my letter of explanation that my protest was *not* an attack on the Christian faith (although I was, in fact, contradicting the Bible, I chose not to present it as such).
No, my expulsion was the decision of a single hatefully homophobic administrator.
The support I had after that was inspiring. I even saw a message going around that came off the internet: “God wants spiritual fruit; not religious nuts.”
Anger is a motivator, but it’s sense, understanding, and rationality that affect the greatest responses.
Very good blog. Angry, yes, but that’s the point…
I enjoyed it and agree with you.
Write more!
Bravo! Fucking-A, standing ovation, cat-call and wolf-whistle bravo!
I don’t hate, I try to be what I think is right. Truth be told I am religious. So point a finger at me if you want. I’m not extremist in the sense of killing people or forcing my opinion upon them. Am I ration, that I believe is yes, but hell accept it as no if you want your decision, and I can’t change that.
If that isn’t enough to justify even a hint of my opinion, then i guess to bad, let it be gone.
What do I hate? I hate people that claim religion as the new witch hunt. Not to say religion is perfect, but that people who are religious can also be human beings. I think that God exists, wow look I capitalized God, obviously i’m extreme. I’m a college student almost finished and I see nothing wrong with believing in God. I have my beliefs in right and wrong, much of which are my opinion. I’ve grown up as a child with divorced parents. My father doesn’t believe God and my mother is to influenced by step father. She is a believer, but that is not part of the relationship. Anyways I don’t hate as best I can, remember hate the sin not the sinner. I let people have there opinions on many topics, I tell them my opinion and such, but don’t force it upon others. I dislike people who obviously don’t work toward what is religiousily right in my faith. I am Christian mind you, and I don’t consider Catholicism part truly Christian. Anyways my point is that Christianity/religions in general have become the new Witch Hunt. Have you met people who claim religion and act wrong I sure the hell have, but also I have family that try to live it the best they can. My step-brother had sex before marriage, oh no, he had a kid, and he took responsibility for it. He is what i consider the best example of what I believe in. He takes care of his children, and his now wife. He adopts, he has 5 adopted kids. He works a full time job now so he can help his family, and he goes to college to be a teacher. He helps anyone be you a citizen or not, religious or not, or even from the same culture or not. What needs to be seen is that yes there are problems with many religious figures, but those that truly live what they say are also getting slandered by people who point out those who do wrong.
It is like saying that all politic figures are perfect. I’m betting that all people have at least one politic figure that they know has done something wrong. Same thing with religious people, but the truly religious try to work towards what they believe is right, and many of these people have a good opinion of what is right.
If your going to hate on religions at least hate on the people who say they are religious, but act differently. Don’t hate on the people who live what they say, and what they say is reasonable logical.
So in typing this, what I hate(more disapprove of) is people bashing on others beliefs with not specifying those who purposely act opposite to what is correct.
And in closing atheists that claim anything that a person has done wrong is present in the entire religion (such as the catholic priests and children) should understand that such a claim justifies that any atheistic individual is the representation of atheism, be it pedophilia, racism, sexism, or the holocaust.
My opinion is there is ignorance on both sides, so stop bitching about it, or at least bitch while making proper stipulations. Else all you atheists could be considered pedophile, Nazis, or communists by association.
I was born and raised a Catholic. The Constitution gives no relgious test for those who practice a religion (just that it is freely practiced) but neither does it say anything about not protecting atheists or those that are agnostic. I think it should.
In fact, there is no religious test for a President of the United States, and yet one of the candidates (Mitt Romney) who is a Mormon, was taking heat for his faith. Or what about Sen. Obama, who has been somewhat tarnished by his relationship with Rev. Wright? People still think he’s a Muslim that supports Hamas. What I’m saying is, even though with faith are questioned because of these very powerful perceptions.
I frankly don’t think we have the stomach to elect someone other than one that can “prove” to various consituencies that they believe in God. That’s very sad. It can change – I mean – it’s not impossible, but it would take years, I think, for the possiblity of accepting (let alone electing) a President who was an atheist.
I am sorry for the kids that were abused in the Church sex abuse scandal, and think that anyone accused should not be in the pulpit. Period. They should be in jail. A settlement isn’t going to give a child his or her innocence back. Nor do I believe that condoms should be prohibited, as they clearly protect against HIV/AIDS and other diseases. With a couple of the other points you raise, I wish to keep my opinions to myself.
You rock!
I don’t know your name but I am so very glad people like you are in the world!
You’re a shining star in a night sky.
I’m sorry you feel this way, I really am. At the end of the day, when everyone else has turned their back on you, God still loves you, no matter what you have done. If he can love me, he can love anyone.
-Jim
Attagirl. 😉
Reading your response post, I figured I might as well go ahead and show my support. I Stumbled Upon this gem and devoured it, coming out much better armed to deal with those who question my anger. I also came out -okay- with being angry about it, so that’s two-fold on the greatness of the post. Awesome job, and keep up the fight.
I smile every time I read this. I’m bookmarking this and also forwarding the address to some people who’ve tried converting me and others. Should shut them up a bit. Hope you don’t mind.
I have another hate for you to add to that list. This last year we have been preparing CVs in our Careers sessions. We got given a guide-handout thing that said the things to mention at the start. Name, DOB, Religion, etc… for use in a mock job-interview.
I put ‘Athiest’ under religion, and guess what. Yes, I got a Christian who said that he wouldn’t do an unrealistic interview and would instead give me criticism on my CV. He commented almost immediately that ‘it says quite forthrightly here that you are athiest’…’most companies won’t employ athiests’ etc… ‘so don’t put athiest on your CV if you want to get a job’.
Fuck that. I’ll put it in dayglow orange letters before getting rid of it. Thanks for the inspiration.
Very well written and composed post. I enjoyed every word. It’s like a scrapbook. Thanks for making your sentiments about this topic known.
FINAL DRAFT FOR WORLD-WIDE CIRCULATION:
now with EMBEDDED VIDEOS!
please FWD all your appreciations to [email protected] and
[email protected] and [email protected]
SEE HOW WE CAUSED THE PRESIDENT OF AMERICAN ATHEISTS, ELLEN JOHNSON,
TO QUIT HER JOB AND STOPPED RANDI’S MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL
CHALLENGE:
for randi & dawkins and all the so-called “critical thinkers”
the ORIGINAL *KING OF TERROR* VIDEO…..
the *MODEL* of mental health:
“Look at the ANGLE OF THE KEY….see that, see that….”
what an idiot this Randi is…..a REAL CRITICAL THINKER….
Visit:
http://nostradamus-usa.netfirms.com
to see how we stopped the MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL challenge…..
watch carefully the consequences of Randi’s *idea*…..
For over 40 years James Randi Zwigert (is this even a REAL NAME?) has
had total control over who and how the testing was conducted, yet
despite all this he has terminated the challenge.
The ONLY REASON why the challenge was stopped is because he lost and
refused to pay.
Apparently, Randi likes to break the rules when it serves him:
“14. This prize will continue to be offered until it is awarded. Upon
the death of James Randi, the administration of the prize will pass
into other hands, and it is intended that it continue in force. ”
Great force…..it’s over……
where is my MILLION DOLLARS, you LITTLE *NO-NAME* FRAUD
PS: Almost Forgot: Love the IRONY of the *BULLSHIT* sign over Randi’s
ugly head….
Ah, wouldn’t it have been easier to write what you’re not angry about?
I was once brainwashed (religious, plugged into the Matrix, or whichever euphemism we’re using this week), and after searching for my own answer instead of being force fed a form of population control.
While I share many if not most of your beliefs, I would classify myself as being agnostic in the sense that there is a possibility of a higher form of life, but I dont buy into any of the excrement distributed through organized religion.
So far, science fiction has provided better interpretations of what is and what is possible, and I can get better continuity from most comic books than any religious doctrine (there must’ve been a bigger writer’s strike when the bible was being written)
Anyway, I enjoyed reading this and despite my opinions about marriage, everyone deserves the right to pursue their happiness as long as it doesn’t infringe on others’. I wouldn’t say your anger is misdirected or any more excessive than anyone that’s religious. I’ve work with someone that is Jehovah’s Witness and she gets just upset about the “religious groups” for all the reasons you stated, but is basically the pot calling the kettle black.
I find it somewhat amusing and upsetting when religious people complain about gay marriage considering how in my lifetime they would look down on interracial marriage using the same reasons (I’m black, and I like blonds. I was once told that “God doesn’t want you to mix” among other things).
If you take any of the phrases used against gay marriage and replace references of being gay with being of a different race, it’s what was taboo no more than 20 years ago.
Hi. I just came across this post on “Stumble Upon” and I absolutely LOVE it. Great job. I’m definitely favoriting this and will probably refer back to it often.
I am agnostic, but many atheist are struggling with childhood programing around religion and they find it offensive others assume they know there point of view. The religious in America have a false idea of the life of atheist and agnostics. We are all hedonist, or sub human, and very responsible citizenst, I do not use religion as an excuse to avoid my responsibility in life as so many faithful do in their churches. I do not pray to empty air to help someone I take action. I offer support and I do something.
However, It’s is frustrating to live in a country that was founded on the freedom of religion and has lost is values. We should be free to believe as we choose but unfortunately the fundamentalist wish to make America as backwards as a middle easter muslim country but in the name of god, the pope or Jesus.
Stop being angry.
Open your eyes and worship the maker of heaven and earth 🙂
please email me. please.
Vast amounts of anger like that can consume your life.
If you awake from the illusion that pits your anger against all those enemies, you will have time to live.
I’m a Christian.
And I’m sorry.
It’s not supposed to be that way. It’s not supposed to be about being angry.
It’s supposed to be about Grace, Forgiveness, Passion, Wisdom –
It’s supposed to be about Love.
I’m sorry for the corruptness of the church, the ignorance of the believers, the arrogance that makes people think they can condemn other people.
I’m also certain of Truth, of Goodness, of Beauty, of Love.
I’m not certain that I understand them.
There are hard questions for everyone to ask – always.
I’ve been a Christian a long time. I’ve been an Atheist a few times in between.
A lot of the things that make you angry frustrate a lot of Christians too.
I’m sorry that we people must communicate impurely.
I’m sorry for the people who acknowledge Him with their lips and deny Him by their lifestyle.
You will know them by their love.
God Bless [regardless],
darth
WOW! I’m so glad I read this!
I have to say, I am in the military (and atheist for the most part) and when you talked about having prayer forced on military members I felt like someone could finally hear me during those prayers!
I am also angry about everything you have said, and I am now your newest fan!
WOW! I’m so glad I read this!
I have to say, I am in the military (and atheist for the most part) and when you talked about having prayer forced on military members I felt like someone could finally hear me during those prayers!
I am also angry about everything you have said, and I am now your newest fan!
You’re fantastic. Keep it up.
(I followed a link to this article from the Religion section on Yahoo! Answers, if you’re interested.)
I’m a follower of Christ, and I’m angry about most of those things, too. I’m terribly sorry.
This was awesome.
Hi Greta,
Wow. The amazing thing is, though I would be on the opposite side of the religious fence, I also agree with much of what you said.
It seems to me that you are the sort of person who doesn’t accept pat answers. Have you ever heard of L’Abri (www.labri.org)? Intellectual (and believe it or not, Christian) answers to the big questions. You might enjoy the discourse because I do believe you are indignant for a lot of very good reasons. Obviously, to both of us, the world is not what it’s supposed to be.
Not everyone who studies at L’Abri walks away a Christian, but at least you’d have a great “thinkers” discussion.
Have a great day and hang in there!
T
medtary, l’Abri looks like a lovely little retreat, but can you clarify what their accepted dogma is? The web page says that their principles include “Christianity is objectively true and that the Bible is God’s written word to mankind. This means that biblical Christianity can be rationally defended and honest questions are welcome.”
What is this “Christianity” thing that is held to be true? The Bible can be trivially shown to not be objectively true. Just compare Genesis 1:11â26, which creates plants (on the third day) well before man (on the sixth) with Genesis 2:4â9 which clearly states that man is created in a barren land, devoid of plants, which are created later.
Obviously, at least one of the accounts must be inaccurate.
So before I can discuss the matter, what is this “Christianity” that is referred to?
Thank you, that was a great post.
One more thing that makes me angry that I would like to point out is any atheist who treats atheism like a religion. Several other atheists I have read posts from say things like âDEATH TO ALL RELIGIONS!!â not making logical points, but just bashing religion in general. That kind of comment is idiotic, like Shannon Brown commented earlier âI’m all about people believing or not believing what they want, as long as they don’t force it on other peopleâ. Most of my friends are Christian as well as my entire family, and most of them are smarter than me. Many atheists, including me, have probably treated atheism like most christians treat the bible, with blind faith, at some point, and tried to force it on someone else. To me that is worse than almost any religion.
But that was a great post and thanks for putting that into words, something I have tried and failed to do many times.
Thanks. Very well written.
I’m angry because so many of my Christian friends that I love suffer so greatly from guilt.
I’m also angry that so many brilliant minds are wasted on biblical research.
However, I’m also a tad pissed off with the ignorant atheist standpoint that there are no divine beings. How can we know there’s not a white raven out there? What is the harm in the more humble agnostic standpoint?
You know, growing up in Canada, I never dealt with any of that shit.
These days, none of that shit flies up here.
Just yesterday, the priest who performed the first gay marriage in Canada, and Dr. Henry Morgentaler, the man who made abortion legal in Canada, were both inducted into the Order of Canada.
I have to admit, I am amazed that it’s so dramatically different in the US…
I cant do more than agree. Its good that someone did put up the whole list.
Nick, there’s nothing wrong with that viewpoint, it’s just not true for me. Once I get past solipsism, I have to accept some degree of less-than-absolute certainty in establishing truth, and the evidence for the non-existence of divine beings is sufficient to satisfy me.
White ravens, on the other hand, I know exist; albinism is a well-known mutation, and I’ve seen pictures.
I must say, you speak for me. You rock. Keep it up!
I usually try to make some reasoned comment responding to blogs – but that was just awesome I think you speak for all the angry atheist out here in the woodwork.
Thank you
I agree to a lot of your points but I also disagree to a few points. I grew up Catholic but my parents and school still didn’t supress my thinking in any way since I ended up questioning my religion in high school, so I think people have the will to think and speak up for themselves and not pretend they were brainwashed.
Also I find that papers only ever tend to show the bad side of life, the horrible things that happen and never the good, I’d say if you’re trying to make a point it’d be easier to convince people if you show both sides equally. A lot of people may think it’s a waste of time but if you’re serious then why not?
Oh also, I agree with brad in the firts page of comments, before you(everyone, not just the author) completely reject a religion or an idea try it first, if you don’t like it, you’ll have experienced it first hand and will have that to support your point. I’m now in university and still searching for exactly what I believe in, but I don’t yell at people saying they’re wrong, it’s their faith and their life and they have every right to it, like we have to ours. For example, at high school we would have prayers at assembly, I wouldn’t join in but I wouldnt disrupt everyone else at the same time.
And for any one that wants to know at the moment what I believe in is a mix and match of everything, but still searching and experiencing new things.
Hello Greta,
I’m a Christian (don’t hate on me girl) who spends quite a bit of time debating and exchanging with atheists online (Amazon Forum). This essay is one the clearest, constructive vocalizations of atheism I’ve ever heard.
It is likely to make the right audience sit up and listen. Why? You are concise on each point and more importantly respectful to the objects of your critique. No name calling, insulting or dehumanizing just direct, hard hitting honest anger.
Well done.
My only critique is the Mother Theresa issue. Not because I think she’s perfect, but because I understand her approach. Suffering is a reality – for some it is a way of life. I believe MT tried to give meaning to suffering. Without meaning suffering is just torture. We don’t all live in pleasant circumstances, and some of us need to act on our own experiences. You have done so – verbalizing your own experiences in your blog – in this very essay. Were all her efforts successful? Maybe not. Were all of them in vain? Don’t think so. She may have not been able to provide the kind of health care the poor needed – but it was probably more than they would have gotten otherwise.
Nonetheless, nuff respect.
I was worried that this article would just make me angry. I am used to reading religious or anti-religious fervor that commits many of the fallacies that it ascribed to its subject.
This however was incredibly measured and reasonable and very careful not to lambast or overgeneralize over any group. This is the type of discourse that is needed not just in touchy religious discussions but everywhere.
Thank you.
I live in Canada and I have never had a problem with my belief. In fact it was my religion teacher in grade 7, 8 & 9 that encouraged me to question what I believe and that I should believe what I want to believe.
I still attend a Catholic school were we have to say prayer every morning, before every test and at every celebration. But I find there is a mutual respect between my teachers and I. If I don’t make a big deal about religion, like continually bitching about it they don’t force me to do prayer or attend celebrations.
And in the end that’s what it comes down to. Respect. Acceptance. Religion still isn’t a huge thing in Canada, in fact we let you do your thing if we can do ours. Basically (This is how my grandpa a strong Catholic said it) Canadians don’t give a shit.
Same goes for abortion, same sex marriage, everything. Don’t other us, we don’t bother you.
Dear Greta,
Of all the posts i have ever seen. All the blogs out there. This is the only one that I have found on any subject that is heartfelt, impassioned, and listing a brae th of thought.
I Think that you should write your book. But post every thought and point first. So that they can be discussed openly. For as anger is a tool to be used, in our venom for that which entices it. We must open up the discussion beyond our own minds. So as to have every criticism and counter argument possible. This is not a single book. It is an amalgam of angry thought tempered by the collective reasoning of a community. WE cannot let our anger take the front seat to out reason. Because then we have lost our own argument.
We are surrounded by the dead dogma prevailed by those who shove their ideology into every pore of society.
This is amazing and awesome. I’ve been angry at the religious sheeple for a long time, but I never had an argument for why it’s ok and even necessary.
I feel empowered now, to be angry, and share that angry (in an appropriate manner).
Thank you very much.
I’m not an atheist, but I’m not religious either. I’m a theist, and my conception of God is too long to be explained here. And I’m also angry about everything you said. The problem is not God or the belief in Him, but the fact that most religious people, especially in your country, are self-righteous nutcases. I’m very happy to live in Canada, a country where evangelists and other holier-than-thou freaks are looked upon with all the pity their mental illness deserve.
Damn… life’s difficult in USA, ‘the utmost democratic’ country in the world. So sad. I feel much freer in anti-democratic Eastern Europe. The basic idea is very interesting and. Rightfull(?)(probably not the best word). But the things you say about anger being engine of progress, just not right. As if people would not achieve anything if they’re not angry. That is the problem. people resort to violence, because they are not able to see other opportunities. where other believe, other have anger, i don’t blame you. But it does keep you stressed. not good.
On the whole.. USA is quite f’ed up, i see, right? No?
Just kill yourself, k ?
great posts im atheist but christians dont make me mad just everyone who thinks its the only way best friend from the 6th grade told me i was going to hell 2 days after smoking pot with me just goes to show you how some of them work
No wonder you hate God…. your info is screwed up bad. I’m a born again evangelical Christian, but I don’t do, say or act like about 99% of what you say Christians and God are like.
I’m not writing you to argue, just to simply say you’re information about us true followers of Christ is extremely false.
Take care and keep safe 🙂
Dave
i love that someone did the leg work and made a rather elegant defense for aethiests. i plan on book marking this and referencing it often.
thankyou!
Dave:
Atheists do not hate God. Let me say that again, just to make sure you got it: atheists do not hate God. (Add your statement that we do to the list of things that makes us angry, though.)
It is logically impossible to hate something you do not believe in. Someone who claims to hate God or be angry at it is by definition not an atheist, because he or she must believe before they can hate or be angry at it. Therefore, not an atheist, who is someone who does not believe in God’s existence.
BEST…BLOG…EVER! Thank you. You are brilliant.
You know, life can be all about going around the world and seeing what there is to see. Sometimes, the thing that is to see is a single preacher on the street calling all of us to repent. Sometimes, the thing that is to see is an atheist standing at the feet of that preacher and politely refuting him. Overall, however, the best way to build up a compendium of the things worth seeing is simply collecting them in the way of experiences. I’ve experienced rationalist-atheists, agnostic/atheists, every concievable variant of a Christian, and now, an angry atheist in a blog. I regard your anger as justified but predicated upon the specifics of your grievances being accurate. There is insufficient space (and I’m insufficiently inclined) to go through a point-by-point parsing and thus, I’ll recognize it all as a rant with the characteristic hit-and-miss nature inherant to a rant and leave it there. I wish you well with Ingrid and I genuinely hope you come to realize that the world is not nearly so terrible as you say it is. 🙂
Well said, and it’s about time more people said it.
I… I think I love you! 🙂
Hi there! I read this post off the 96th Skeptics’ Circle. This is a very important post, and I’m really glad you took the time to write it. It’s not easy to talk about anger, but it’s possibly the most important effector of social change anyone has! Thanks for laying this out in such a clear and comprehensive fashion. I will put your blog on my blogroll right now!
I know this post is old. But it’s kickass and I agree 100%. Thanks for the read.
wow*
A truly Awesome Post + Bravo!!
My Blood Boils at the Pompous Arrogant Audacity of Bush + his Brainwashed Flock for Vetoing Embryonic Stem Cell Research!! Something that can Help + Cure Every Disease known to Mankind + Benefit Every Human Being on the Planet!!
What kind of People are these Brainwashed Idiots??
It is even More Sad + Disgusting + Pathetic that we have Every Upstanding Member of the Community + Highly Educated buying into this Bullshit!! It’s an Outrage in 2008!! + U are goddam Right we should be Angry + Upset!!!
Thanks a Billion Greta for your Brave + Courageous + Intelligent Post!! I came across it at -Endcycle- + I Lucked out to see it*
Cheers + Peace!! Billy ;))
Billy Warhol e-mailed your post to me..
“A couple of years of atheists being “snarky” on the internet” That is a killer line. I am determined to introduce “snarky” into normal conversation in Britain.We already took up “spoiler alert”.. Politician-wise we actually have a party leader who openly says he is an atheist, Nick Clegg of the Lib-Dems, He gets my vote for this among many reasons…trouble is they are the third party with 25% of the vote..
The other two guys are still presumably praying for the markets to recover..
Surely one of the worst aspects of the “religious right” in America,is that they claim the moral high-ground and the utmost Patriotic stand,but they at least imply denial of “freedom of religion” ,which is one of the basic tenets of the Constitiution.
Very well stated and presented. Just know there are lots of people out there who agree with you; people who want to see this country turn away from the ignorant, intolerant path organized religion has led us down and instead awaken a new age of scientific enlightenment.
Keep writing, keep me informed of your efforts, and let me know if there’s anything I can do to help.
Your anger is so misguided and narrow though. Why are you so angry with people who believe in a God that you don’t. If God truly doesn’t exist (for you) then stop being angry and accept others for who they are…just as you want to be accepted.
I would like to make a short remark about Brad’s earlier post as he seems to have missed the point. The point that I feel the article is trying to portrait is the irony within the Christian (and yes I will use the superset) method of trying to portrait the “evil” that atheism has, often referring to Hitler (who believed in the Biblical sense of ‘God’) and that Christians become rather offended when we point out the same argument on the other side towards your priests and particular higher members of the diocese.
Regardless, hitting each other with small arguments will result in no progress and only greater animosity. I would love the opportunity to sit down with a devout Christian (or any subset) and have a thorough conversation about the topic without the constant fighting between the groups. Believe what you like, but don’t try and enforce it on others as ‘the will of God’ because frankly, if there were a ‘God’ I think his/her will would have already been done regardless of your ostracising and harassing of atheists.
RAmen.
Greta,
Wow. Thank you for letting me know there are other people out there who are angrier than me. I don’t know who you are or where you have been but I am glad you are here saying that which needs to be said and so eloquently and clearly. I have not read the whole page, but I will. And I’m fucking angry too. It is so obvious isn’t it, the rightful place for atheism in this absurd world? It is completely, undeniably, fucking insane that which has happened the last eight years at the helm of our president who has let his fantasy god guide him. Talk about no one at the helm….
Thank You for this page.
Matthew Graybosch, killing people for their beliefs sounds mighty close to terrorism.
Thank you. This is just incredible. Thank you.
This is beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Of all the ideas in which you could invest so much anger, you have picked the most worthy and humanitarian of all. I shake your hand.
Hey, you’re obviously angry. I’ll pray for you. And Iâll also pray for people like Sunshine in Iraq (http://livesstrong.blogspot.com/) who has asked for our prayers.
I’m sorry if that makes you angry.
And hey, I’m not particularly religious, and Iâm from Australia not the USA, and I, like our government, also think that a marriage is between a man and a woman.
I’m sorry, but I can’t marry my brother, my son or my daughter (if I had either), my dog who I might love, or my mother or father who I might love…because marriage has and always has had rules in our society.
If you weren’t gay you still wouldn’t be able to marry someone of the same sex.
Anyway, I feel your arguments are not well thought out, and you contradict yourself. Good try though.
You can’t take faith away from people; the human spirit is too strong.
:applause:
What a stunning blogpost Greta Christina!
:hug:
Great article.
Great points.
I’m pretty fucking pissed too. It is about goddamn time that we Atheists received the same fucking respect that we are forced to give to the religious folks.
We respect (tolerate) their beliefs and it is time for them to shut the fuck up and do the same for us.
*tear tear*
My eyebrows crinkled and my throat squiggled as I read your article. Afterwards, I stared out of my window for a while, and then I laughed at myself.
“No way,” I thought. “I’m a Christian who supports atheism.”
It’s a fresh idea to me. It’s good; you’re very right.
Atheists need more even-keeled recognition and less condemnation.
If my God really does exist, then all of us need to trash our fancy pants and leave the judgment to the Judge.
Man.
I wish I had a button that could eradicate all persecution because I would press it.
Maybe MT had the button and lost her faith because she ignored it. Fifty years of dishonesty… wow.
*sigh*
I wish I knew more about life and could create compassion with my eyeballs.
Thank you for writing down your anger–it has definitely given me something to munch on.
This is the best thing Iâve read on atheism in a long time â heartfelt, straight to the point, oh so biting and yet so true. I love you!
I, too, am angry. Thank you for this. It’s splendidly written. You’re a very strong person – keep at it.
c4bl3fl4m3: “What is it that atheists really want?”
J. J. Ramsey :”Depends. For some atheists, the agenda is to be treated like human beings and accepted as first-class citizens. For others, it is to knock back the influence of religion or get rid of it altogether. For yet others, it is the promotion of evidence-based thinking over trust in handed-down traditions that are less than trustworthy.”
ME: And yet for myself, it’s all of the above.
JY, the reason why your idiotic little pedantry is wrong is that atheists don’t have a core set of principles, save for one: they don’t believe in deities.
That’s it.
Nothing else.
And I find that, most of the time this is how it’s used:
Theist: Do you believe in God?
Atheist: Nope.
Theist: ARHGH! OH NOES!!!111!!!! Why not? Can’t you see God is [fill in the blank of wondrous attribute]?
Atheist: No proof.
Theist: You sound like a fundamentalist athiest! You must be a really angry person! How sad!
You see, what theists almost always do with atheists is misrepresent and assume and then make mountains out of molehills as nonexistent as the imaginary sky-buddy they believe in.
What we’re accused of and what we are, as always, are two very different things, as this splendid post makes clear.
Great, keep being angry!
You are pretty angry alright. Is there anything besides your relationship with your girlfriend that doesn’t make you angry? Sounds to me more like frustration and fear. You are frustrated because you are in a double or triple minority, being female, homosexual and atheist, and you can not get your voice heard except by shouting at the top of your lungs, and you are suppressing fear in that, if you are right and we (believers) are wrong, we have lost little since when life ends, it just ends. However, if we are right, and you are wrong, then you have lost everything, including a chance to know and love Jesus Christ. I pray you do not live your entire life without having experienced the wonderful blessings associated with having a personal loving relationship with a very real and compassionate God. You ask me how I know he’s real, I know because he lives in my heart.
I am not angry, I love you.
May the Grace, peace and knowledge of Jesus Christ set you free from this bondage of fear doubt and unbelief that has you so bound,
Thank you for that!! It’s a great article. It was extremely emotional to read, but it reminded me to not give up. We will get our all our rights if we stay focused and angry. I struggle with religion being shoved down my throat just about every day. I’ve bookmarked this post to keep myself going. Thank you.
wow! hear hear…
i personally love the comment “challenge all atheists to read the ggod book and pray for a week..” in the replies.. that’s like an atheist asking them to denounce god just for a week, and seeing if they really DO go to hell 🙂
i am also bookmarking this page. brilliant.
Well, for the most part, those are good reasons to be angry and being a Christian myself, I too, am angry at some of the same things that you are.
Live and let live.
Well, for the most part, those are good reasons to be angry and being a Christian myself, I too, am angry at some of the same things that you are.
Live and let live.
The character in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim myths called “God” is a complete psychopath, deserving neither worship nor praise, and I am extremely thankful that he does not exist.
Word
This is terrific! I think you’ve covered my entire horde of rage! Thank you, Greta. May the light glinting off of Ockham’s sweet blade of truth shine upon you.
Thank you! Your last bit about about the arrogance of super-christies is great.
This is probably the best blog entry I’ve read all year (as of December 18th). Thank you.
Ghandi proved you don’t neccissarilly need anger to drive change.
Holy cow batman! That’s a rocking post. I’m angry too, but you took the time to put this together and post it. Awesome. Keep being angry. I’m putting a sign in my window this season that says ‘saturnalia’ on it… lets see how that works out.
I’m pretty tired of the fucking stupid arguments against separation of church and state, of the stupid arguments about why I should be quiet or ashamed. Fuck them.
To JR
Ghandi proved you could resist without violence. His anger was great, greater than you know, he just did not act on it in violent or angry ways. Anger does not equate to violence. You do not always need anger/violence to have change, but you need it to want change… semantics? maybe, but I think it makes a big difference in how things are perceived. Anger is needed or no change will be requested/demanded. Violence is not needed, anger is. I’m angry, and I agree completely with this post. I’m not gay, I don’t worship the devil, I’m not immoral, and I’m an atheist. I’m tired and angry at having to defend that. I’m tired and angry at being looked down upon. Fuck that and fuck those people that want that situation for me. They are unjust, and the unjust need to be stoned to death says the bible. How is that working out for you?
As a bible-believing Christian I agree wholeheartedly with about 90% of what you have written. There is no-where in the bible that states Christians are to legislate *anything* or be involved in *any* political lobbying. There is no where in the bible that calls for Christians to celebrate Easter nor Christmas nor any other pagan holiday. Christians are not encouraged to pray for sporting victories in the bible nor good poker hands (particularly repulsive considering the origin of playing cards). Read Revelation 17:9 for an appreciation of how Christians should view the Catholic church…
Anyway, your anger is justified but please don’t confuse the Christian faith with the corrupt practices of the many you have listed above.
lesbo fattie!
You berate Mother Teresa for struggling with her faith. May I ask you if you have always been absolutely sure about every stance that you have taken? Do you also know that people like Mahatma Gandhi also struggled with great many doubts.
Only the simple (read as stupid) are so cock sure of everything that they never pause to contemplate on whether what they are giving up everything for is really worth it.
Also, if you have never had to give up a lot then you won’t have this struggle either. If you are going through life pampering yourself without the slightest thought to anything higher, you won’t need to grapple with doubts if all of this suffering is worth it.
Both Mother Teresa and Mahatma Gandhi.. as also a lot of other exceptional people have given up many things for a higher purpose. It is only natural that they struggle with themselves and their doubts more than others.
I suggest that you read “The story of my experiments with truth” by Mahatma Gandhi. If you are so inclined, you could also read many of Philip Yancey’s books such as “Where is God when it hurts” or “Disappointment With God”
I would also highly recommend “Dark night of the soul” by John of the Cross. John of the Cross is a highly venerated saint in Christian circles and he writes lucidly about the dryness and separation many christians feel. That is not to say that God has ceased to exist. If you need to know more, you know what books to read.
If you continue to think that Mother Teresa’s suffering was unique and that no one else seems to struggle with their faith, I also recommend that you read the Bible – specifically the book of Psalms where David himself cries out in anguish many times. Also, read Job.
Also, may I add that very few people will agree with you that Mother Teresa forced suffering on the people she was helping in Calcutta. Believe me, I live here in India. I know the amazing work that Mother Teresa did in India. She gave millions dignity and many, many millions in Calcutta will absolutely swear by it.
But then you are willing to ignore the words of all these millions and take the word of *ONE* man Christopher Hitchens, a man known for his attacks on religious organizations and people, as the definitive word on Mother Teresa. That does not make sense.
May I also add one other thing – when one lives in the comfort of the west, where everything is safe and you think that not wearing seat belts is living dangerously, you can afford to hold any opinion you want.
But there are millions who hold views and beliefs which put them at direct risk – quite often even their lives will be at stake.
For instance, if you were a Christian living in parts of Orissa, India just over a month ago, it is very likely that your life was in extreme danger. It is also very likely that many members of your family and many of your friends have been killed over the past month because they professed to be Christian. It is also very likely that you are now living in a refugee camp and have no way of returning back to your town/village. And even during this time, you will be hearing of people who are converting to Christianity even though they know that they stand to lose everything.
You need to ask yourself – what are these people giving up all these things for? Can’t they just lie about their beliefs so that they can live in peace? Are they just insane or have they grasped a truth which is eluding you?
Thank you for this, It is well written and through.
When I was younger and had more stamina I used to enjoy any kind of debate; religious, political, whatever. Once in a while you would run into some unstable person who cannot accept other’s disagreement without losing control of their mind. Of course such people should be avoided. If they cannot regain themselves they cannot be allowed to interact with others.
Just as you say that all the harm and good attribuited to faith or to athism is simply the harm or good that people do and would have ahppened anyway. I suggest you are not angry because you are an athiest; you are angry because you are angry.
I long ago decided not to apply the word “atheist” to myself since it contains a root implying something about gods/deities. I do not define myself by my lack of concern about others’ superstitions. Period.
I was raised with christian propaganda poured into my head. As I recall it, you cannot be cruel to anyone at any time and be an actual christian. I suspect the vast majority of those who claim they are christian do not conform their behaviour to the tenets of that particular superstition.
Faith provides the morally “fallen” acceptance and then forgiveness something that an internal life of mere reason does not promise. How does secularism provide redemption for garden variety human folly? Is there a middle ground?
An excellent post.
However, I also get angry in the following circumstances:
– When blacks get angry at me for being white (happens a LOT)
– When women get angry at me for being male (this happens a LOT with self-professed feminists)
– When gays get angry at me for being straight (ok, this has only happened once… most are very easygoing)
It’s not like I have a choice in being born. And I’m most certainly not going to apologize for who I am, nor should I be expected to.
I know you probably won’t like this, but all I could think of reading this was Jesus and the Pharisees.
Seems like you were naming off a lot of similar things. Which is my anger at Catholicism…so many are not Christian.
But the thing is, ice_old, that in any conversation with ANY Christian, “pharisee” or otherwise, any moral objection or rejection of evidence or theory will invariably be based upon “because God said so”.
Examples:
– homosexuality
– premarital sex
– swingers
– stem cell research
– evolution
– abortion
– masturbation
You will also invariably argue that certain parts of the bible (the parts YOU have chosen) are safe to ignore, or “don’t apply anymore”.
Some past examples are:
– slavery
– woman’s rights
– men with long hair
– death sentence for witchcraft, homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, and such.
In the end, you cherry pick what you think your god wants based on what your peers consider acceptable.
DAMN FINE blog!
I’ll admit, I am one of those who sometimes criticizes atheists for sometimes not being palatable enough, for showing too much anger. I do believe that you “get more bees with honey than vinegar” and that’s why I lure theists into my worldview by being nice to them and not pushing the issue when religion comes up (I am sure that I go red in the face, though — that’s my big giveaway).
But I agree that anger is both justified and necessary in order to challenge and defeat an erroneous and sick status quo.
Religious fundamentalism is ignorant, intolerant, mistaken, dishonest, dangerous, un-American and, I dare say, even blasphemous. Thank God for atheists.
Thanks for the wisdom.
Interesting read. A little long winded…alright a lot long winded. But I agree with the point. I had 12 years of Catholic school shoved down my throat. I think Catholic schools are breeding grounds for Atheists. You come away from that experience either fully indoctrinated or whatever the complete opposite of that is. Incredulous???
I find anger to be an unproductive response. First, I think “they” want to make me angry, and I don’t like letting someone else steer my emotions so easily. Second, I find anger takes a larger toll on me that it does on “them”. It leaves me drained while they are left feeling smug.
I prefer compassion. Turn their own words against them, “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do”. The one thing that really jumps out at me is if you read the new testament and the words of Christ, and compare them to the actions of a few highly motivated evangelicals. I don’t know how on earth they can call themselves Christians.
I have always said that personally I have no problem with God. It’s his fan club that I’m not too crazy about.
I’m Eastern Orthodox Christian and as you would assume I don’t agree with everything you said here, and that’s our mutual right, but I also don’t disagree with much of what you said either. I believe that religion should be a yardstick by which we measure ourselves, not others. Like I said I don’t agree with your entire article, but there is one thing you banged right on the nose:
“…and then, when confronted with the horrible evils done in religion’s name, say that those evils weren’t done because of religion, were done because of politics of greed or fear or whatever…”
This makes me think of the words of Siddartha Gatauma Buddha: “Religion is outraged every time an outrage is committed in the name of religion.”
Excellent piece, extremely well-written, impassioned and very informative.
Great job.
well said…This post is addicting!!!I am an Atheist myself. Its disgusting when you have to apologise for your human nature…I am sorry THATS THE ONLY THING I AM:HUMAN
Wow, more than a year of comments. I skipped comment pages 15 – 22 by fudging the URL cuz, well, damn.
All of you counseling “anger is bad for you” seem to have missed the point.
All of you simpering “the baby jesus still loves you” seem to have missed the point.
All of you stomping “atheism is too a religion” seem to have missed the point.
All of you vomiting “fat dyke” are just assholes.
All of you whining “but real christians like me are nice” seem to have missed the point.
All of you charging “but Islam is even worse” seem to have missed the point.
All of you consoling “I’m sorry your life is so barren” seem to have missed the point.
All of you appeasing “you’ll catch more flies with honey” seem to have missed the point.
All of you condescending “your arguments suck, you should have made my arguments” seem to have missed the point.
But hey, true believers of every stripe are not know for their ability to follow even the clearest of reasoned argument. Which is just what Greta has presented here.
As for the state of humanity, some days I weep for joy, some days I just weep and some days I do both. Today was a both day.
Thank you for that, Greta.
For one you speak of intolerance as if you weren’t intolerant yourself, everyone is, stop giving labels to people and how about you be tolerant of other peoples intolerance? Back to the labels, why do special interest groups always give other people labels? ‘intolerant’ ‘homophobic’ ‘racist’ ‘prejudice’ For one I’m not homophobic..that word is assuming im afraid of gay people, and I am not afraid of them, I just dislike them. Secondly we are all part of the human race, so I for one sure do not hate humankind. Now I am not the most religious person in the world, but I can’t believe that something smaller than my fingernail could have exploded and created..everything…Science itself is just another form of religion, I have seen evidence of evolution, but that does not give evidence of life, all the theories of life are just that..theories, I guarantee there isn’t a scientist in the world that can answer the question ‘why’ for ANYTHING. Anyway, getting tired, have fun.
Turning into an Atheist has been fairly new for me (it happened within the last year) but it has helped me better come to terms with the anger I have had concerning religion all my life, and to find some sense of stability in this damned world. Before I decided to drop it and do a complete 360 the other direction I was actively praying and meditating for direct answers. Namely, I prayed for the Truth. To know the Truth and to come to a higher sense of enlightenment… All I got were several severe mental breakdowns, a swarm of delusions, hateful images, burning dreams and experiences that I will never forget. When I came to think of things, I remembered that Jesus once said that if you ask God for a fish he would not give you a serpent, then what the hell happened to me? I prayed for Truth, ended up slammed by delusions, had to systematically work my way out of them, and figure it out for myself. If anything, it only made me conclude that if God does exist he either does not care or is a tyrannical, malicious being, bent on keeping you mystified over presence of life so that you can’t do squat. After all, perceiving an event such as a miracle or magic requires that one not know how point A became point B. It’s only a miracle when you don’t know how it happened. Therefore, a miracle is deceptive illusion. It’s that simple. *laughs*
Yes, I am angry. I feel betrayed. Seek the Truth and you shall find it? Not through prayer. And definitely not through God. That’s just asking for trouble.
As far as people saying that religion is a way of organizing ethics goes (in the case of Christianity): How can religion be a way of seeking a higher sense of morality when its main theme is the concept that since mankind were all sinners by birth that the only logical solution was to find the world’s only “perfect” man, butcher him like an animal and ritualistically devour his flesh and drink his blood? It… ummm… doesn’t make sense people…
On top of that I know of at least one contradiction in Christ’s words that really gets me thinking… He says “Think not about the morrow.” And then starts going on and on about how terrible the “last days” are going to be. Hrmmm? So which philosophy is it?
My honest conclusion is that religion causes a lot of mental instabilities, my case included. I mean, God, it’s hard finding sanity in a world where a good number of people believe that an invisible man in the sky hears all your thoughts and prayers, no matter how many people are out there, that another invisible man is out there to undermine him, and then that yet another invisible man who allegedly once existed is trying to save you. Belief is easy to find. The real and tangible Truth isn’t — and it’s even harder to face, or so it seems. And you want to know one of the first things my therapist asks me? “Do you have a church or religious affiliation that could help you through this?” As if religion is perfectly sane and isn’t the primary reason I have problems… riiight…
Sorry I will stop ranting…
Religion makes me angry…
Insane angry…
And insane…
GREAT BLOG! You really spoke for me on many levels. Thank you for this. I’m gonna link to this and reccomend it to theists and atheists alike.
Awesome, awesome blog. I can’t possibly say enough good about it!
-bil
You want to know what I’m mad about? So called “atheists” who try to make atheism itself into a movement. Kinda seems just as bad as just another religion to me. Let people make their own decisions, right or wrong, and let dumb ideas die of their own accord.
I just wanted to thank you for this, it feels great whenever someone says what you always want to say. Especially when they say it so articulately.
Did you delete my comments? I guess it is your blog and you can do what you want with it, but my comments weren’t derogatory in anyway, I didn’t use any abusive language and I do believe I raised some points.
I would appreciate hearing from you why you felt that my comments should be deleted.
Wow!
One of my friends on Facebook linked to this beautifully articulated post. I just read it with my 14 year old son and he wants his Christian friends to read it.
I have been a lifelong atheist, although I have only been able to positively define it as such in the last 5 years – before that I would call myself “without religion” which I would define as “primitive superstition.”
When Christians profess to holding the moral authority, it astounds me that some will argue their 10 commandments are the only thing preventing humans from murdering each other. Whereas I have had a strong innate morality from very early childhood, uncontaminated by Christian belief. So, where did that come from?
It has always seemed so obvious to me that morality is an evolved trait that has assisted the human species to its elevated position in the natural world. As we have worked together in groups, we have had to look out for each other in order to perpetuate the species. You see this trait in other social species, just not evolved to the same level.
So, morality is natural, it makes sense, we already have it. We help to nurture and develop it in our children so they will succeed in life and have good, respectful, loving relationships. How hard is that to realize?
When I told someone this year that I was an atheist he asked me if that meant I worshipped the devil, which is why I have called myself Another Moral Atheist. I am so tired of the judgement, but I have not been involved in the atheist community. I think I just found my call to action.
I understand your anger and your control of it is admirable. A good use of an emotion that too often suppresses the brain’s higher functions that usually degenerates any discussion into a shouting match that could devolve further into fighting with fists.
Thank you for your well thought out points and impassioned speech. I concur with you. My mother is a fundamentalist and I had to tell her that she did not have to be circumspect around me because she is a Christian (Catholic) and I am not a theist of any sort.
I fear we are in for a Second Reformation with the leaders of the cabal (Dominionists) at the helm to take us down the road to serfdom (helot) of a corporate military theocracy even now with Obama. I have no reason to trust him at this time. Do any of you?
wonderful. empowering.
wish i wrote this myself:)
OMG…I was so moved by your piece. It reflects how I feel and am happy to find that I’m not the only one that feels this way.
I also wanted to tell you that YOU are a genius, and a brave genius. You speak out for those that have no voice. Thank you!
This agnostic recognizes wrath in this rant.
Careful, for the Sins require no religious belief. They are real.
I shouldnât have read this excellent, well-thought-out piece which says everything that I believe and a bag of chips! Now Iâll NEVER be able to get to sleep tonight!
For the last 30-odd years, the Republican Party has been sousing itself on a cheap but potent rotgut called Old Fundamentalist. Last fallâs electoral trouncing ended their decades-long binge in a hurry and gave them a massive hangover. Even so, I donât expect that the Republicans will be going on the wagon anytime soon – you know how hardcore drunks like to delude themselves!
Christianity is based around the idea that Jesus suffered on our behalf, and that he is the all-powerful and omniscient creator of the universe. But if he is all-powerful and omniscient, then being nailed to a cross wouldn’t have phased him in the least. He could have prevented the nails from going into his arm, or laughed and said, “Fiddle-dee-dee, you can’t hurt me!”
I love you. I love this article. I love your blog. You are amazing. I found you on AlterNet and I have been stuck reading for something like twelve hours now. Your voice makes me feel inspired and ashamed and proud and angry and triumphant all at once.Fucking amazing stuff. Thank you.
I saw this link posted by a friend on facebook. As someone who grew up in the church and has had some rather unpleasant experiences within the church, I identified with many of your arguments.
The most defining experience was in college when I was part of a Christian group. A roommate had taken advantage of me, and I, justifiably upset, wanted to kick her out. As most people do, I sought advice from friends, including those in the church. My parents said to kick her out, enough was enough, but my church members wanted me to forgive her and look past the issue. I’m sorry, but given how serious the situation was, how could you ask me to do that? I went with my gut and my parents’ advice. What I learned was that you’re only part of the group if you follow their advice and decrees. I was basically an outcast after that, and my roommate was the victim. In the end, I did forgive her as I don’t hold grudges, but the situation was past the point of saving the friendship.
I disagree with many areas of organized religion, which is why I no longer attend church. To be told that my depression is the result of not doing God’s will or of the devil was just too much. It couldn’t possibly be because I went through some major changes and had a chemical imbalance that is easily corrected by medication.
While I am not an athiest as I do have a strong belief in God, I do not believe it is my place to tell others what to believe. Maybe I disagree with other religions, but I don’t have to say they’re necessarily wrong. I believe we have a choice in how we live our lives and it is not up to anyone else to tell us how to live. If we screw up, that’s on us and no one else.
Greta (pretty name by the way), I appreciate your post and think you have some very good points. It’s nice to see someone who has the courage to speak their mind. More people need to do so.
You should write a book. It would be an interesting read. I agree with you on most of it, but I don’t like the proving them wrong part. That’s kind of mean. Let them believe what they want, just as long as they don’t hurt anyone. Unfortunately, they are hurting people, so it has to be stopped. After that, they can believe what they want. Even if it’s about an invisible man in the sky, who made earth, then people out of dirt, then made a women pregnant without conception, who gave birth to a prophet, who died, and then became a zombie. The invisible man also created humans to be flawed, then punished who didn’t do EVERYTHING right. So he’s kind of a dick. Then he tells people to hate, for no reason than because “it’s his will”. What is that even supposed to mean, that God is some kind of bully who hates people because they are different? Oh, yeah… I am also kind of ashamed at the size of my comment. some of theses big ones could count as two or three posts on my blog.
You have a right to be angry, but so do I. Please allow me to tell you a few things that make me angry.
I get angry when as soon as atheists hear me say “I’m christian”, they feel it suddenly invalidates whatever I say then on.
I get angry when other christians (or atheists even) say I’m not a TRUE christian because I don’t go to church anymore, or read the Bible cover to cover, or because I have some ‘pagan’ beliefs. I’ll decide what I am and am not, thank you very much.
I get angry when atheists call me illogical or weak JUST because I believe in a higher power. They haven’t even heard the rest of what I have to say yet!
I get angry when atheists tell me what I can and cannot believe. “All or nothing,” they say, “You’re just a cherry-picker. Therefore, whatever you say is invalid. Even if you have life experiences to explain it.”
I get angry when people assume that their faith ‘has it all’, and that spiritual truth can only be found through ONE RELIGION ALONE.
I get angry when people tell me I’m going to burn in Hell because my perception of God is not the TRUE God.
I get angry because the faith shoved down my throat when I was younger causes me to fear God when I should love God.
I get angry when the atheism being shoved down my throat NOW causes me to feel belittled and stupid.
I get angry when I’m not allowed to talk to my extended family about my beliefs so I don’t worry them or get myself into trouble.
I get angry when people assume I’m a bigoted extremist JUST because I believe in Jesus Christ.
I get angry when people scoff at me for meditating or taking a walk in the woods to find spiritual truth because, apparently, what I SHOULD be doing is sitting in a pew two hours a week and reading an interpreted translation of thousands of year old text.
I get angry when people refuse to consider that while the Bible was surely INSPIRED by God, HUMANS wrote it and that they may have added there own little twist.
So, while I am sympathetic, I have my own reasons to be angry. Please understand that many religious people have there own problems and that we are not the enemy. I personally have nothing against atheists and don’t believe God does either. Being a good person is all that I think matters, in the end.
🙂
Dear Greta,
I love you (and not because you’re a lesbian and I’m a hero-male);)
I want to express my gratitude for the eloquence and extensiveness of your thoughts regarding, “Why, we atheist are angry, and damn well should be.”
I’m glad that you have collected these examples here and I also will bookmark and link to this blogpost/article in the future. I came here today because someone on Pharyngula had linked to it.
I also hope that you and your partner will someday be able to be married.
I’m so sorry your experience with Christians has been that… You are valid on so many of your points. I am a Christian and I make no apologies for that, I love my savior with passion and I try to serve Him even though I tend to fail..
I’m impressed seriously though by how educated you are, I disagree with several of your conclusions.. but again you have made some seriously accurate accusations against us Christians.
So, I’m sorry for what we’ve done to you personally.. I’m sorry that Christians didn’t get the point was to love, not accuse or hate, scream, be hypocritical, show retarded bumper stickers or snazzy little t-shirts with quotes.. but the whole purpose was to just care about you and who you are.
An amazing blog post. It really is a shame that all of these things are happy. By the way, I LOVED the pictures, they add a great touch.
I got on your site from the link “whygodwonthealamputees.com”. This is dead nuts on. WOW!!!!
As long as anger comes from good logic, it is neither preventable nor evil. Be angry, but see that it is for the right reason. As it is, you do have many good reasons to be angry.
yes. yes. yes. yes. Yes. Yes. Yes! Yes! YESyes. YESyes. YESyes! YESyes! YESyes(WOOOooo-WOOOOOOOOOO!!)YESyesYESyesYesyes! YESyesyesyes! YESyesyesyes! YESyesyesyes! YESyesYESyesYESyesYESyesYESyesYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESyes yesyes! YYYEEEEEEESSSssssssssssssssssssss and four very happy-assed exclamation points.
Best. Atheist. Rant. EVER!!!
dude,
sounds like you need to take an anger management class or something. You should be able to find more information about it at your local church.
cheers.
Well said. Unfortunately the amount of evolved human beings are far less than their religious counterparts. The more we atheists can make ourselves heard the closer we will be toward ridding the earth of all that superstious, primitive, i love my imaginary sky friend, bullshit! Keep it up.
Thanks! I bite my tounge far too often it is nice to hear someone say what I beleive. Keep up the god, I mean good work (ha jk) You Rock!
Yes. Fuck yes. God damnit son-of-a-bitch yes.
My girlfriend actually broke up with me because I am an Atheist. Why? Because your religion is so fucking right and I’m so fucking wrong? Fuck off.
ok this post rules and the points are very valid i to am an adiment atheist not to say i have no basis i looked at many religion and read many religious scripture but the contradictions within each book i read with it self showed me one thing that it was only written to serve the purposes of its writer at the time and hence had no validity at points i understand peoples need for religion to keep them from the fear of there own end but death is part of life and is needed i think. also the military part hits home with me being a marine myself i have been lying to those around me to keep from being persecuted for it constantly even my friends in the corps dont know i got to mass on sundays and i hate myself because i know more then alot of them people in there do and i dont believe what so ever but i write my letters home and take the little time just to relax
this is a very insightful post and i hope to find more like it and thank you for all you say for those of us who are forced by circumstance to say nothing
i hope one day you can marry your partner and i can at least let those around me know what i believe without prosecution but i fear that time is far from now
Wow, i’m glad that someone finally had the courage to stand up and speak completely openly on this subject.
a close friend of mine (the poster two comments up, i do believe) has fallen victim to the generic lable slapped on us just because we don’t believe. I’ve witnessed much too much anguish that wasn’t necessary just because an ignorant person came along and decided that fact and logic don’t make enough sense.
I’m angry that believers will strictly adhere to the writings that homosexuality is a sin but choose to ignore the writings that it’s ok to sell your daughter at the age of 15.
I’m angry that my closest friend was dumped because the girl was “genuinely worried about what will happen to his soul” just because he’s an atheist.
I’m angry that very few believers will sit down with an atheist and have an actual conversation about what each believes is true. Yes, we may be angry, but that doesn’t mean that we’re any less human and should be treated any different than one who they sit next to in church.
Thank you for giving a voice to the unheard. I thank you for being completely honest and uncensored. I thank you for not worsening how atheists are viewed by disregarding the opposing view. You supported our views but also did give credit where it was due (even if not often).
I wish you only best.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post.
As a rational citizen of the free world I just wanted you let you know that you’re my fucking hero. Nothing makes me more irate than having to be told by a fundie that i’m going to burn in hell when they can’t even prove the existence of their imaginary friend.
You’re amazing.
I hope you don’t mind I used a small fraction of this in a video blog.
I get angry about the fact that atheist regimes (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, etc.) killed more people in the 20th century than any regimes in history.
Let me start by revealing that I am a believer. I belong to a church which many who are reading this would label as extreme, repressive, homophobic, and a few other choice descriptions. That perception does not reflect reality, but because you are starting from a very different set of basic assumptions, I’m sure it seems that way to you. I totally respect your right to believe as you do and to express those beliefs as you see fit. Please respect my right to believe as I do and to express those beliefs as I see fit. I rarely get angry, not because there is no cause, but rather because I find it counter-productive. I deal with angry people every day in my profession. I can assure you that when a person vents their anger at me it never improves their chances of getting what they want. I’m not saying we should “bottle up” those feelings. That is also very destructive. But, it is possible to let feelings of anger go. Only when we deal with one another in a calm and non-confrontational way can we really find common ground and understanding. I wish I had more time to address some of the particular issues you raised. It really would be nice if I were independently wealthy. Then I could spend all my time interacting and exchanging ideas with folks like you. I’m sure that, in time, we could grow to understand and accept one another better. You are obviously someone who is thoughtful and concerned. That’s a good thing, even if I disagree with you. Hopefully you’ll be able someday to let go of some of that anger and we can work together to make this world a better place
I would add: I’m not only angry when believers attribute a healing to their god or prayer, but more angry at the fact that in so doing they deny the efforts of the doctors, nurses, and researchers that actually made it happen.
I am stunned, thank you, however I hope this has released some of your anger it is not a healthy emotion and the world needs people like you. Bush is gone the neocons havent
*Very* late to the party here, but I like this.
It needed to be said.
It needs to be read.
Well done.
I’m a Christian, and I’m angry about all of these things too.
A few brief things to say:
1. Children’s brains are hard-wired for the same 3 things as everybody else’s:
A. Survive
B. Reproduce
C. Take care of offspring
(Even if they are physically incapable of doing the latter 2 yet, they are hard-wired to give it their every effort.)
Nowhere on there is “trust adults” and I can tell you from experience it is not true. They are also not hard-wired to believe everything. The reason they believe this crap is adults hammer it into their heads, and they keep going like the energizer bunny all day and all night, beating the bullshit against their children’s heads like they are trying to drive in a nail. (They are, just not a literal one.)
I know for instance I was and still am a huge skeptic of everything, and I have been since I was a child. I also have hated adults since I was a child, and for damn good reason. My exact quote from when I was 6:
“Adult and bigot are just about the same thing. The adults who are not bigots are LITERALLY 1 in a million. Save them, get rid of the rest in whatever manner is convenient.”
Seriously, children are not designed to trust adults, they are taught to trust adults by the crack of the imaginary whip. This nail is driven into their heads with false authority, an adult’s favorite hammer.
You can reach me at the YouTube account I share with my fiancee and her younger sister.
http://www.youtube.com/user/avianmosquito
So, basically…barring your fellow “angry atheists,” every person who makes a strong statement regarding his or her personal convictions regarding religion…pisses you off?
Huh.
I just read 24 pages of comments. I read Christians calling you a bull-dyke, I read Christians using the “But that’s not me” defence, I read in essence, a whole lot of Christians giving you a whole lot of reasons to be angry.
And they wonder why you focus mostly on Christianity. Eish.
Me? I am angry at people who think that by harvesting organs from little kids while they are still alive – they will make the Muti stronger.
I am angry at people who threaten other people with violence for celebrating Valentine’s day, or holding hands.
I am angry at people who think screwing a nine year old is okay because the prophet did it.
And I am angry with the Christians who set up “Charities” which act like aggressive marketing campaigns for their beliefs, who then go on about how Christians are more charitable.
At least when an atheist helps you it doesn’t come with strings attached.
This was wonderful!!!
Calm down! No need to be angry about anything. The way I see it, simply put, is that way back thousands of years ago there were loads of religions that probably all thought they were the one true people, the real believers etc., just like today, and they probably all thought they were immortal and the world was always like this and it always will be like this – just like any member of any religion today.
Well, obviously those stone age religions aren’t around any more because the things they believed in just seem stupid to us. We know the sun isn’t a god, it’s a star. But the religions of today are based on stuff that only relatively recently has been scientifically proved to be rubbish – the sort of deeply entrenched social structure religion has established can’t just be overcome in a couple of hundred years. Look at it like this: In a thousand years when all today’s religions are gone, atheists will be seen as the pioneers of the ‘religious revolution’ (ha ha), and the theists will be seen as old fashioned idiots, in the same way we look back on the people when they refused to believe the earth wasn’t really flat.
Like Rage said” Anger is a gift”.
good stuff, I like your fire. Fuck Yes!
Thank you for articulating this so clearly. I appreciate it; my views are with yours.
Keep writing and making the world a better place <3
Hey there,
I “stumbled” on to your blog like some others who have commented. I just want to tell you how awesome it was reading your opinion and how you completely have a right to be angry. I am Christian, more spiritual than religious, and think it’s a private belief. It’s a belief that I don’t mind making fun of or realizing the mockery some people make of the institution of religion with their fanaticism.
I also wanted to tell you…even with me being Christian, I agreed with about 95% of what you wrote. I like to think of myself as a educated, logical, well-balanced Christian. And guess what? I pray that you and your partner are finally able to get married VERY soon.
My way of thinking is this…I am a human being first and then everything else second, including being Christian. Atheists are denied way too many rights and one of these days this will change.
Oh and I just want to share why I believe. This is not preaching or anything along those lines. I believe because of hope. I like to think that in any situation there is something…greater than can lift me up and give me hope and a glimmer of optimism. That’s my reason for God. For me God=Hope.
Anyway, more power to you for writing this kickass entry. I enjoyed reading it and definitely agree with most of what you wrote!
You go girl !!!
thank you
This is an absolute must-read article. Unfortunately, the people who need to read it most probably won’t. I agree with betalife – better times are coming. Hang in there 🙂
Oh my Darwin, thank you sooo much for posting this. This is like the motherboard of everything I’ve wanted to say.
Thank you thank you thank you.
As one who would be considered a “Christian” for lack of an easier description, I applaud you for your statements. They are enlightening, refreshing, and so very needed.
Even as you make the statement of Atheistic philosophy I feel that you are striking chords that ring closer to the truth than most “religious folk” would ever dare to realize. And in the end, the truth, regardless of its origin, will always win.
After reading all that, I really do get why you are so angry.
It has also answered my question I have had for years and that is, why do African women continue to have babies despite knowing their childrens lives would be cut very short by hygiene and food issues
Yahoo Answers lead me here and has opened up my eyes. Focus all that intelligence and energy
Now focus on the positive of what atheism does for people.
Though some of your anger may be justifiable it is the expression of that anger that can be destructive to both you and your arguments.
Also not all of what you gave as examples were examples of anger. Some were frustrations and fears.
Being anger does not in itself accomplish anything. It can, however help to mobilize people to accomplish a goal.
Keep some of the anger but keep it hidden and turn it into action and planning.
QQ more imo.
You made me angry about it and I’m not even an atheist. I’m just an agnostic and I accept that I don’t know what the real truth is. I agree with so many things that you wrote here.
One thing that I am angry about is that I feel like I have to defend the fact that my belief is a lack of belief. Why do religious people have to get that “oh you are going to hell” look on their face when you say it.
It makes me angry that people think atheists/agnostics have no morality. I make an effort to be kind and compassionate. I make an effort to help others who need it, and do what I think is right.
It makes me angry that I am not represented in congress, and that if and when I decide to run, I may be considered a bad choice because of my (lack of) beliefs.
People came to the US to escape religious persecution, and now are conveniently ignoring that fact and the constitution. I feel like I am being discriminated against. I imagine many other religious minorities feel the same. This isn’t just about atheists or Christians. This is about the fundamental right to choose your own religious path. I believe that as a society we are strong and can overcome this as we have overcome so many other biases.
—
This was a great article. And if you did write a book, Ill bet it would be amazing
I agree with absolutely everything you’ve said here. and countless more things can be said about religious extremists. whereas how much can be said about athiests? “they’re intolerant of christians!” even though christians are the ones saying athiests shouldn’t be considered citizens, the school system should teach nothing other than christianity, athiests are evil, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Im really sorry about you and Ingrid. I wish I could do something about it. Its especially when I hear about true love getting stepped on like that that I can’t stand these fundamentalist christians! Who are they to tell you who you can and can’t love? what you can and can’t think? but they can because “God made them rulers over the world” But athiests are arrogant.
Very thorough. Very true.
Regarding 9/11, someone said, “Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings”
(it was a guy named Victor Stenger, I found out)
I found your blog via atheistrev dot com and I had to read it all twice (three times now) and then your reply to the comments. All I can say is it feels good to know that there are others out there like me, that feel real anger and incredulity that 100% of the entire world doesn’t see that religion is the closest thing to true evil (maybe only thing) that any of us (or a moral relativist like myself) will ever know or experience. Incredulity that 100% of people don’t see just how much religious behaviour and thought and illogic stain our humanity and hold us back from our true potential not just as a species but as individuals trying to get just freaking get along with each other. I personally am especially pissed at xians who claim that America was founded upon their twisted religious dogma – I fart in their general direction.
I hope that your article convinces a ton of god-brained sky-daddicans to open their eyes and smell the logic. And if it doesn’t, well then f-them and the pink unicorn they rode in on and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster flay them alive with HIS noodley appendage.
Much love, Greta…keep up the writing.
I just came across your blog yesterday and have been gobbling it up. I feel like you’re saying so much of what I never have the ability to articulate.
It makes me feel so good to see I’m not alone it what I think.
And I think you are wonderfully brave to boot.
Thankyou. You rock.
This is coming from an Atheist here.
When I was first reading your post, in the beginning, it was turning out very well. It was going for points I completely believe in, and in fact teaching me a couple of new ones. Then you got to the one that you’re angry that Christians still believe in the young earth story. I figured, that’s hypocritical to be promoting the 1st ammendment and ask for tolerance, then advocate against it, but oh well. I kept reading. Then you got really into it. Then you got to the point that it became that you no longer spoke for Atheism, but against Christianity. Against tolerance. And that I won’t read.
You’re just as bad as the Christian extremists. Perhaps you could host an Atheist show, but in a style similar to how Pat Robertson runs his show.
I liked most of this, but the abortion problem really threw me off. Since when does being pro-life have anything to do with being atheist? Trust me, I’m an atheist, very pro-choice, and also a philosophy minor in university. I’ve examined the arguments for pro and anti abortion and both are completely legitimate and not reliant on religion in ANY way shape or form.
Brad, maybe you’re right, but I thought the “abortion = murder” conclusion was derived from the binary distinction of “humans have souls, and killing a body inhabited by a soul is qualitiatively different from killing a body without one.”
So a developing human baby (embryo) shortly after conception is qualitatively different from an adult pig or cow.
And I thought the soul (which memory tells me that veterinarian David Taylor referred to as a “minor bit of non-functional anatomy”) was a concept supported more by religious faith than by evidence.
There certainly are secular arguments against abortion, but I thought the folks trying to kill medical staff were religiously motivated.
Can you elaborate to enlighten me?
Nice piece.
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround him… The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself… All progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
– George Bernard Shaw
first off, wonderfull blog. i enjoyed reading it (mostly cause i agree w/ your points). i was presented with an interesting argument recently that i thought i’d share. First an assumption; i thinks its safe to say that faith is a universal trait yes? Religion as an “opiate for the masses” has always been around, throughout all cultures and history. Now, the argument is that it is a necessary survival trait, that for some reason people as we are have a need to subjugate ourselves to a higher authority. We have a need to know that everything will be alright, or at least that there’s some sort of order to our world. An interesting example of this is humanities movement from faith in God to faith in Darwin. We hold the scientific method in high esteem. Whereas before we believed that God had all the answers, now we have moved to having faith that science has all the answers.
We are all faithful creatures, but i have met several strange atheists in my day that reminded me of religious followers. They have an extreme fundamental belief in the non-existence of God, and love to share that belief with those around them. Getting a person to question their faith is the best possible result of a conversation. For a religious follower, isn’t creating a convert the best possible result of a conversation?
So I am 19 monts late getting here, but I am compelled to say: “Attagirl” and also “YES. AGREED. DITTO. THANKYOU”
Very interesting blog. As a Christian (don’t worry, I’m not here to try and ‘convert’ you), I’ve never been to your site before and I’m not really sure how I found it, but it was a good read and I plan to read a few more of your posts. I agree with many of your points and agree that a lot of people have taken religion way off track. It has been used and abused in wrong ways and anyone can claim that they are a Christian, then turn around and do something 100% against the Christian faith.
As for your anger, I can see where you are coming from. Not personally, but I’m not stupid and I understand your points. A lot of the same stuff makes me angry too. I don’t know how anyone couldn’t be angry when a person of power abuses a child and gets away with it. I will never understand that. According to my faith though, they will all be judged.
But I am also responsible for some of the points you are angry about. You stand up for what you believe (or disbelieve) and I stand up for what I believe. For one particular topic, you are angry about people being against homosexuals. Why is it wrong for a Christian to be against homosexuals? Christians have been against homosexuality since the Bible was written. Just because it’s being more accepted now, you think that all Christians should accept it and just let it happen? That’s the same thing that you criticize early in your post when Christians tell you not to be angry. I hope I’m making sense. I have a few homosexual friends. I don’t agree with their lifestyle, but I am still good friends with them.
Anyway, the world is a large place. There will always be people with different beliefs, wishes, hopes, dreams. You’re an excellent writer and have given me many things to think about. Hope you’re having a good day today 🙂
First time reader here, just wanted to say that this is a truly inspiring piece. You put perfectly into words the feelings that I’ve had for years now, with more restraint than I could ever have managed. Thanks for the read.
I get angry about people who tackle life in all black or all white. Oversimplistic thinking might help you to feel righteous, but condemning people whose journey has led them to wonder about life in a different way than you do is a mistake. You separate out two groups, Atheists and Believers, and then give all of your Angry at Religious Folk bullet points. Your list brings up events and view points that are not things that make Atheists angry, they are things that make a whole range of people angry because they’re mostly crappy. It is such a bummer to be reminded that some people just view things in black and white. That’s what makes me angry.
YOU ROCK LADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wan’t to hug you so much right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I feel for you… it is hard being an athiest and you have a right to be angry!!!!!!!!!!
But yeah whenever someone asks me why atheists are so angry, I say I am not angry and even if I was, I have a right to be, then link them to this article!!!!!!!!!
LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!
(and yeah I am exclamation point happy xD)
first of all, the darwin fish is offensive because its blatantly making fun of the Jesus fish.
second of all, christians have every right to accuse people of intolerance when they say they don’t agree. If someone came up to me and told me they were gay, and I said I don’t agree with that, I’d be sued for a fucking hate crime.
all I have to say is if you’re living like there’s no God, then you better be right.
I don’t have much to add. That was amazing. I suppose the only appropriate thing to say right now is “Rock the fuck on!” and of course conclude by throwing the horns.
damn dude!?!?!?! that was a good spiel there!loved it!
Very good list of comlaints… will have to steal some of them for myself.
Thankyouthankyouthankyou.
As a young atheist, I’m moving into a place that’s absolutely bursting with fundamentalist, evangelical Christians. I may have to show everyone this post, or print it out and post it on my door, or something.
Because, you know, sometimes you get too angry to speak and it’s better to let people read.
I’m sorry I tried reading this and all I got out of it was “blah blah blah I am a big dumb faggot who wants more attention on the internet and in public hearings,’ so am I missing something here or is that the gist of it?
I am glad that people like you exist in this world. As a fellow atheist, I know exactly where you are coming from. I attended a primarily Baptist high school and every day I am forced to filter my words and hold my tongue, for fear of being verbally assaulted by my peers. Even some of my friends would likelybash my beliefs and not even realize that they’d hurt me.
I believe in the necessity of logic. Under this belief, it is impossible for the Bible to be true. But when I try to make these arguements, I get the typical “Somethings aren’t meant to be understood. It’s just God’s will.” That doesn’t cut it for me.
For anyone who is doubting the arguements of an atheist, even after reading this wonderful blog, read this.
I am not the plaything of some higher diety
I CAN do it on my own, because I am strong, and not over shadowed by people telling me that I need Him.
Others may need to believe His love, I do not know, but I don’t
I am TRULY, emphasis on the truly, happy living in my own love, and love of the people around me that I can see rather then that which I cannot: My mother, my father, my friends, my sister, my brother, my pets…
I KNOW they love me, and they will love me no matter what.
He will not.
If I do not follow His doctrine, His follows will tell me that He still loves me, but when I die He will send me to hell. That is not love.
The people who truly love me welcome me back with open arms when I make mistakes, not banish me to eternal despair.
The people who truly love me assure me that they do not hate me when I screw up. They may not be a happy camper, but they never hate me. They always have unconditional love that He can never give me, real or not.
A real higher being would not encourage me to throw all of myself into Him and leave no room for myself, to make my own mistakes and pass my own judgement.
A real higher being would not look down on my brethren because they are something that He deems wrong and abnormal, when they are good people in truth.
A real higher being would love me unconditionally reguardless of my beliefs.
As Thomas Jefferson once said, “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”
But according to His followers this is not the case.
His followers speak of Muslim terrorists, not realizing that terrorism exists with in their own sect.
The Ku Klux Klan exists upon the basis of Christianity.
They are not just nutjobs who are racist, they are nutjobs who declare that anyone who is not a white, protestant american does not deserve to live.
But you would not have me say that all Christians are this way.
So do not try to tell me that I need God, do not try to tell me that there is no other way, and that every other path is laden with sin, because in truth, every path is laden with sin.
Your own bible says, “Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.”
Every stone was dropped.
Drop your stones, for you are riddled with sin. You are overloaded with gluttany, lust, sloth, pride, greed, envy, and wrath.
Don’t tell me what to be, let me live my own life with my own beliefs.
Drop your stones.
i think this guys i angry.
Todd: No, there’s a lot more to it; that’s not the gist at all. Assuming that your reading attempt was honest, my condolences on your reading skills.
I am angry when American Fundamentalist don’t understand where their beliefs lead.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/02/taliban-pakistan-justice-women-flogging
Great read.
whew!
Perfect post.
Hmmm, the comment you made about the saying “There are no atheists in foxholes”, I’ve never minded that quote, I find it’s more strengthening for the atheist side of things, that when it comes down to it, God isn’t something logical, isn’t something that someone thinking clearly will believe in. I think that it identifies God, rightfully so, as a fallback, something to ease the fear people feel, as a coping mechanism.
I once had a teacher who said to me that as you age, as you grow closer to the end of your days, you become more prone to believing in God, he said the same of people who have a fatally ill child, that sometimes you just believe in God to comfort yourself, to assuage the fear… I find that that tendency in humans is as good a proof of the non-existence of God as any, that God’s merely a figment of human imagination.
Absolutely one of the best blog posts I have ever read anywhere, bar none. You articulate so much of how I feel perfectly, that I can merely point people to your blog, as you make a better worded and more concise/decisive argument than I ever could.”Attaboy” hardly begins to describe it.
What is it about religion and religious thought that makes otherwise very intelligent people stop being the intuitive and questioning minds they normally are in all other areas?
I’ve thought about this a great deal lately and realize how strongly religion is imprinted in their minds at an early age. It is virtually impossible to break this imprinting.
But then I wonder why is the imprinting of figures like Santa Claus easily dismissed, yet Christ and other religious figures are not?
I’m constantly baffled. I’m constantly filled with contempt for religious leaders, and pity for their followers. But then, they feel pity for me.
Your post is so well researched. Thank you very much for posting it. I, too, will bookmark this and refer back to it often even though I know they will never “get it”. It’s just nice to know I’m not alone in my thinking.
By the way, I’ve been an atheist since I was ten and I’m 64 now. Times are changing. I felt so isolated years ago. No longer. Not that I minded. I was always proud of my atheist conviction and confident in my thinking. As confident in my thinking as a religious person is in their leap of faith. Irreconcilable differences, but I won’t stop trying.
Thanks again for a wonderful post.
nice thing im angry to.
hopefully now that us atheist can talk maybe religion will blowover or at least stay out of making school related descions or other worldwide things
I’m angry that ANYONE would CHOOSE to believe in a God that allows people, especially children, to suffer horrible injustices because “it is part of his master plan.” I say, REBEL against such a God, don’t sell your soul to him. Plans be damned. What matters is right here, right now. Any religion that encourages the exclusion of entire sects of society, or simply shakes its head at horror, is a religion to which NOONE should subscribe. What the hell is wrong with the human race, that we still debate the validity of religion? We call ourselves the intelligent species?
Wow – that felt great! We should all get angry more often. 😀
Anger as a motivating force is a useful one, and certainly one that’s being used politically today, but I think it’s ultimately counterproductive. If all the social movements you mentioned above had only had anger as their motivation, I don’t think they would have succeeded. The civil rights movement in the 60s was waiting for Martin Luther King, not Malcolm X.
Being motivated by anger makes you manipulatable. If you’re only angry about stuff the other people are doing, they control the debate. You have to find a positive message that speaks to your goals, not just speaks against the other people.
Two years late to the party, Greta, I wish I’d read this before I bothered to write my own rant the other day.
I could have saved myself a lot of trouble by just linking here.
Thank you for this, though. It’s getting bookmarked.
On the subject of criticising religion: Stop and Yours, from the ever-excellent Jesus & Mo.
On the subject of spurious balance (the “Golden Mean”), Homoeopathy, from the Irish comedian Dara O’Brian.
TRiG.
Well said. Most of all I’m angry because others are making me angry about something which I don’t believe exists. Anger without real cause is the most difficult to manage.
Anger arises always and only from fear.
ALL fear is fear of losing something – including the *absence* of something, i. e., cancer. All fear is fear of loss.
You seem to fear losing a great many things which I will summarize as “the way you want things to be”.
Things have never been the way you want them to be. They never will be. The way you want things to be does not exist. It never has and never will.
Therefore you have nothing to lose.
Ergo, you have nothing to fear losing.
You have no fear from which anger can arise.
For further happiness see
http://barkingunicorn.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/a-bird-in-the-hand-is-not-yours/
Nice post. Anger, its whats for dinner.
I would like to add one or two.
I get angry when people tell me I can’t get angry because I am a Buddhist. The fuck I can’t!
I get angry when people say I can’t say “Jesus Monkey Fucking Christ!” because I am a Buddhist and don’t believe in Christ’s divinity. I say that is exactly the reason that I can say “Jesus Monkey Fucking Christ” or “Siddhartha Donkey Blowing Gautama”.
Creative cursing is not limited by belief structure.
Cheers,
Jack
A friend just pointed me here and I have to say I love your post.
Just wanted to say you totally rock!! I think you should continue adding to the list and write a book. 🙂
AMEN.
Very well put. Great read. Thank You.
Fantastic article. Thank you for posting such clear and accurate points.
I’m not particularly angry, but that’s because I live in New Zealand where athiests are not treated as second class citizens. I’m a biologist and we have absolutely no problems teaching evolution in schools.
Just so you know, there are more rational and less religious countries out there than the United States.
I think that if I lived in the US I’d be angry too.
Fucking Brilliant.
I lack belief in any deities. Yet I’m not angry. At least I’m not angry because I’m an atheist. Indeed, I’m quite content in my atheism. And neither am I angry at religion. If people want to believe things like that, let them.
It’s true, I don’t want religious people trying to run my life. But I just don’t really get angry about it. Must be built differently.
So clearly there are non-angry atheists. And anger is not necessarily a characteristic of atheism.
Well, Anger pretty much sucks.. I’d love to talk to you in person.. Absolutely devout Christian who values Athiest viewpoints..
It’s good you have let out your anger. Now, try asking God what is the truth and the truth shall set you free of anger and give you peace and love to spread around.
from a former atheist.
Fantastic post.
Here’s something Napoleon once said which I think religious people everywhere should sit down and think very hard about.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
Word.
Thanks for sharing your very well expressed thoughts. 🙂
And I’m angry that there are people who see all of G-d’s magnificient handiwork all around them, especially in their very selves, with the body’s dozens of fabulous systems and sub-systems all working marvelously together, and yet try to convince me it all came about by frakin’ accident!
JN, is there a place I can send complaints when my body’s systems don’t work well? Starting with cleft palates and male hernias caused by the odd way that testes travel from where they grow to where they hang. And the blind spot, the vagus nerve, the fact that humans are prone to choking to death because of the way our vocal cords are arranged…
We suffer back pain because our spines are really not designed for walking upright, Anaphylactic reactions are often deadly, even when the thing being reacted against is harmless.
The world around us, and our very salves, is obviously the result of unplanned change. A bit of intelligent planning could have produced a much better body. (For example, given the viscosity, flow rate, and pressure that a heart must pump, a turbine pump would be a much better design than a pulsate heart.)
Dear Greta,
Your mistake is that you have not separated God’s command and Human rules and interpretation of God’s command.
It is like I blame all American for the cost of Iraq war, unfair; or judge all Muslim people are terrorists because what Bin Ladden did, unfair. It’s like I blame communist Atheists’ crime on all atheists people, unfair. It’s like I tell people that Pope is the representative of God, so whatever he said is right, even his shit is holy.
You can not blame men’s sinful deeds, or church’s idiotic policies, or some greedy lowdown senators, or terrorists’ acts on all Muslim, or Christian, or all American, or All other people’s work or religion as whole.
It’s like human are killing each other for 2000 years, then we are all bad or all should be sentenced to extinction.
there is difference btwn faith and religion, btwn God and church.
Your anger is simply focus on people as whole not individual, that makes people think religious people all alike, all the same.
Well, we are not. If fact, we are striving everyday to make the world a better place.
On one in this world is perfect, whether atheist or theist, I beg everyone has good and bad side, like every else, what’s unfair is you do not present the whole picture of a person, or group, or religion, or a nation, or everything.
Ps. Catholic church has no right to represent religion or God, just like no any artist dares to say he or she represent Art.
why the fuck was there a coat hanger on the septic abortion one?
actually,, i dont wanna know
makes me sick just thinking about it
BRAVO!
I could write 4500 words praising your words but I wouldn’t be adding anything useful. Excellent, excellent work-and trust me, I know how much work you put into this.
As for the prayer section; the only thing I ever pray for are winning poker hands, and those prayers always fuck me. And Jerry Yang, a terrible poker player by the way, was nauseating with his pleas to baby Jesus for straights and flushes. I almost through a brick through my plasma. That’s what make me angry, bad poker players begging Jesus for cards and getting them.
Deep breath. Anyway, fantastic job!
Blogs are so informative where we get lots of information on any topic. Nice job keep it up!!
I know I’m somewhat late coming in here, but I just wanted to say this was a very well written article and it sounded strangely familiar to my rants against organised religion lol. I have been told that because I’m not Christian, I clearly lack spiritual fulfillment, which is not the case. I think all people need to have a belief system they feel comfortable with, I just also believe that they can share ideas without trying to convert me.
I’m probably not saying any of this very well today, but thankyou for the blog. I’m beginning to think I too might be an athiest :-).
PS best of luck with the gay rights movement. I believe the definition of marriage should be amended to “Between two people” rather than “a man and a woman”, and that by doing so it doesnt distract from the intention of the sanctity of marriage – it is still a committment to another person. Just my two cents anyway.
Great stuff. I love when people articulate my feelings.
These are truly inspiring words. I agree whole-heartedly. Righteous fury, dammit!
Your stream of consciousness was breathtakingly awesome!!!!
Hi, great post and some good material here. Just looking for a source on the ‘candy canes’ story about the Muslim girl. Thanks!
I can agree with you on most points, excepting 2.
A.) So what that only 45 % would vote for an atheist president? That’s still a huge percentage, and most people who aren’t atheists do believe in something, and want to elect someone who believes in something since that is clearly something that would influence their decision making. Night follows Day. It’s just logic.
B.) Since when was transcendentalism motivated by anger? Was Gandhi motivated by anger?
I will not ask you to lay down you anger, but I do argue that there may be better ways to do things.
I think your anger may be misplaced. Most people don’t really believe in religion; they believe in money. I think if you asked people to remove one or the other from their life most would remove the religion and keep the money. Compare the list of evils that religion has done with the list of evils that money has done. Talk about evolution.
What do you think? Has religion hindered our evolution more than money or has money hindered it more than religion?
I think most of us really worship money and all the religion clap-trap is a fake facade ( mask ) to get people to leave us alone or give the money to us instead of those darned atheists. Hey, if I gave you some money would you let go of some anger?
Thank you so very much for this. Trust me, I share your anger 100%. I have a hunch that within the next decade to come, big things are going to happen in the name of atheism and rationalism. We need to start the atheist militant movement. It’s time for a REAL revolution.
Hi, this is a hit and run:
You need to get laid by a real man!
I would like to thank you for this ranting blog because you are speaking for me too.
I’ll be honest, that was lengthy and I didn’t get through it all, but let me say this: As a self-described Christian, I think you’re correct. I believe, but I believe because I want to, not because I’m afraid not to or because anyone bullied me into believing. I want other people to believe this way, too, and to respect the opinions of others who do not. For every angry atheist, there are probably at least two angy people of some other “faith” ready to spew hatred that them for being an unbeliever. I believe that separation of church and state is largely a myth, but it shouldn’t be.
As a Christian, your anger doesn’t offend me, though I am saddened that you carry such strong, unhealthy negative emotion inside of you. You give those who you vehemently hate great power–and at the same time present how powerless you feel in not having your “way” in everything–but then, that is part of living in a country with free speech, isn’t it? You deny God’s existence, claim it has no meaning in your life. Why then do those who do believe create such anger within you? Why not just ignore them? Unless, what is written here actually hides the faith of which you so strongly denounce?
This is absolutely amazing! Beautifully written!
Thank you a MILLION times for writing this piece!
The irony is that atheists are angry bitter in-your-face people who flip out over religion, and then stereotype believers (who are generally pretty mellow) as angry people who get in your face about religion.
Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist.In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.The term atheism originated from the Greek áŒÎžÎµÎ¿Ï (atheos), meaning “without gods”, which was applied with a negative connotation to those thought to reject the gods worshiped by the larger society. With the spread of freethought, skeptical inquiry, and subsequent increase in criticism of religion, application of the term narrowed in scope. The first individuals to identify themselves as “atheist” appeared in the 18th century. Today, about 2.3% of the world’s population describes itself as atheist, while a further 11.9% is described as nontheist.Between 64% and 65% of Japanese describe themselves as atheists, agnostics, or non-believers,and to 48% in Russia.The percentage of such persons in European Union member states ranges as low as single digits in Italy and some other countries, and up to 85% in Sweden.Atheists tend to lean towards skepticism regarding supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence. Common rationales include the problem of evil, the argument from inconsistent revelations, and the argument from nonbelief. Other arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to the social to the historical. Although some atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism,rationalism, and naturalism,there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.
(name and URL removed due to commercial content – GC)
This was brilliant. Plain and simple.
Awesome post! Brilliant article!
As an atheist adult, I love it. I immediately wanted to pass it on to my atheist 13-year-old son, post it on facebook, and give it to my local high school atheist club (who have reached out to me for advice on how to run their club). But alas, the language. I understand the use of the strong language and (unfortunately, bad mommy) use it myself when angry. The f-word is ubiquitous and it’s nothing the kids haven’t heard already, but for me to pass it on…well, if you ever post another cleaner version of this passionate article let me know!
I use “fundamentalist atheist” sometimes. It’s primarily a joke, intended to be ironic.That’s my usage, although plenty of other people use it the same way. Some Christians and Atheists do have senses of humor. The intention is point out int a humorous way that some “New Atheists” have a tendency to behave like the girl in this comic, arguing that the rules of logic don’t apply to them because they’re right. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1289
I use “fundamentalist atheist” sometimes. It’s primarily a joke, intended to be ironic.That’s my usage, although plenty of other people use it the same way. Some Christians and Atheists do have senses of humor. The intention is point out int a humorous way that some “New Atheists” have a tendency to behave like the girl in this comic, arguing that the rules of logic don’t apply to them because they’re right. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1289
Thank you, Greta, for not only voicing my anger, but putting it out on the internet for all to read.
Thank you.
Well, we just have to get that sand out of your vagina, Greta. No wonder you’re so angry!
Love,
Atheist Douche
Awesome article! I couldn’t have said it better.
A fantastic and well balanced piece Greta! I have shared this on my Facebook wall using the Share feature!
Wonderful post, you definately put a lot of thought into this. It all makes me feel pity for theists for acting like they do, but maybe anger would help move things around for the better sometimes!
Great post Greta… I just loved your reasons for being angry!
Unborn babies feel pain by 20 weeks. It’s a scientific fact. In fact they feel pain more intensely than adults since the pain receptors are there, yet the mechanisms to dull pain develop later.
I’m angry that people are still painfully ripping their legs off or slowly burning their skin off in saline in the name of “choice”. Especially considering thousands of couples are waiting for years to adopt a baby.
Fun fact, Lisa – 89% of all abortions take place before the twelfth week of pregnancy.
As for those poor, childless couples – I feel bad for them. But not really as bad as I feel for the thousands of kids presently in foster care who need a home but won’t get one because those couples who supposedly are desperate for a child don’t want one that’s older than two.
Your anger is greatly misplaced. You should be angry angry that since 1917, when atheists took over Russia, and then 1945, when they took over Eastern Europe, and a few years to several years later, when they took over a great deal of Asia, that they KILLED, TORTURED, AND IMPRISONED IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS UNTOLD MILLIONS! yeah, yeah yeah, I know religious people have done their share of bad things, you atheists nevber tire of pointing that out, do ya? but the OFFICIALLY atheist communist governments have a record of murder that seemingly surpasses that of any other force trhat has been in power since time began. So, it seems atheists have killed more than religious people, Hitler, Mussolini, and just about anybody else you want to mention. Put together! Now, dont you think THAT might have a little bit to do with why some people are “angry” with atheists? Oh, I know, we shouldn’t blame all atheists for things some didnt do! But atheists continual whining about religion IS blaming all religious people for things that some have not had a hand in. So maybe this can help you see why 45% may not vote for an atheist president! Harassment and death threats? Well…maybe if atheists hadn’t cold bloodedly murdered so many MILLIONS . . . And, yes, we know, atheists usually are ANGRY about opinions that do not jube with theirs . . . and Galileo, really? You are still angry about Galileo? Well, if your lucky, just think, some day you may be able to bring an officially atheist communist regine to the US, and get back at all those people who make you angry by settin up the first death camps! Youd be an atheist hero! Like Lenin, Stalin, Beria, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.!
“I’m angry that this belief leads to the revolting conclusion that God deliberately makes people sick so theyâll pray to him to get better. And I’m angry that they foist this belief on sick and dying children — in essence teaching them that, if they don’t get better, it’s their fault. That they didn’t pray hard enough, or they didn’t pray right, or God just doesn’t love them enough.”
I was raised Roman Catholic, and converted to the Russian Orthodox Church at 35. In all those years, I have NEVER heard anything even remotely similar to the above! WHERE do you get this stuff? Make it up? Figure what would make you “angry” about the so-called “religious,” then accuse them of it? If it wasn’t so sad, it would be funny that you think this garbage!
It’s hardly Greta’s fault that you’ve never drawn any logical conclusions from what IS actually said by religious authorities, M. Woerl.
‘Attaboy.’ Or should that be ‘attagirl?’ 🙂
Excellent post, I’m posting it to some of the forums I post at. And you being a writer really shows.
I’m a “believer” in a neo-pagan religion, but that’s after a spent a long time as an atheist and agnostic. Now after having looked into other religions and moral codes – many of the the dreaded “Pagan” ones – I can safely say no one has it right and I spend time arguing from the point of view of a non-believer (perhaps not atheist, per se). It really riles up Christians when you “remind” them of what their own bible says and they babble out garbage trying to fill in the hole you just created in their belief system.
Thank you for your wonderfully written post about atheist anger.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
It’s so hard to find others that feel the same way I do about religion. You’ve really hit the nail on the head.
Thanks again.
Wow. That’s a big list. As a Christian, I’ll not attempt to address each and every point. I’ll just say that I agree with you on a lot of your points. They make me angry, too, and I believe they make God angry. Thanks for venting and providing some thinking points.
You go sister. stay as angry as you need to be
thank you for what you wrote and it saddens me that it really is just the tip of the iceberg in all the reasons to be angry.
Well said Brad! I agree with you. If Christians would be more worried about being Christ-like and less worried about being politically correct or arguing, we would avoid a lot of this. Christians are supposed to love others as we love ourselves. We are supposed to be the ones who are gracious and turn the other cheek, but even in looking at history and current events, “Christians” (and I use quotations because a lot of people are Christian in title, but not in lifestyle) are the ones reputed to persecute and hate. We need more apologetix out there who know what they believe, why they believe it, and can who can explain or defend his or her faith using not only the Word of God, but common sense and evidence.
Thank you so much for writing this! I wish I could articulate my feelings as well as you just did.
I know this is an older blog, but I stumbled upon it. It is so well written that I bookmarked it so that when I get so tongue-twistingly angry and feel alone, I can read this and know there are others. You are awesome!
Amazing how atheists are so angry and yet, I as a Christian, am so Happy. Oh, to have the love of JESUS in my heart!
Ross, I hope you are angry about some things sometime. Otherwise, the “love of JESUS” sounds a lot like heroin.
Which brings to mind a comment by Marx.
I really enjoyed this blog post, but one correction; you make it sound like only women are suffering from the AIDS epidemic in Africa, which is very untrue. Men are just as vulnerable.
Very Useful information , this is both good reading for, have quite a few good key point.
A lot of anger there. It sounds to me like your world sucks, maybe I am misinterpreting the rant.
It is true that anger can be an engine for social change. I know that Hitler and the Nazis were furious about the neutering of post WW I Germany. They certainly used that anger to bring about some social change.
Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin used anger to bring about social change. So did Mao and Pol Pot.
The KKK are always trying to bring about social change and also seem permanently pissed off.
The anti-government militias want to bring about social change. Timothy McVeigh was so pissed about it he blew up a building and a kindergarten.
And Muslims seem pissed of frequently about all kinds of things (I am sure they would be very annoyed with Atheist lesbians if such things were allowed in their own countries) and are constantly using that anger to engineer social change via beheadings and bombings.
Greta, maybe you should let a little of the anger go and don’t get carried away on the idea of “social change” driven by fury. Sometimes social change turns out to be a bad thing. I get the feeling that you so despise organized religion (or perhaps any religion at all) that you want to destroy it. You will not destroy it with reason, so you will have to use violence. Which I am sure you are not advocating. All that anger is only going to eat away at you. In the words of Oddball “What’s up with the negative waves? Can’t you say something positive and righteous for a change?”
Just a suggestion.
God LOVES.
He is not any one of those things you are angry about.
There are people who say they are christians and do horrible things!
The thing is the true christians are the onces who are seeking God and you can tell by their actions. They show love. THey are love. Jesus’ love.
Going around showing where people messed up or what you dont like about them doesnt prove anything! it just proves that we need Jesus in our lives. He is just waiting for you to turn to him!
Hi, Greta.
I first read this post quite a while back when I followed a link from another blog, and I’ve read it several times since then. Thanks so much for writing this.
In addition to what you wrote, I’d like to add the following.
I’m angry that some religious believers claim that putting their discriminatory religious beliefs into the law is perfectly fair while simultaneously claiming that criticizing religion while advocating secularism is horrible persecution of religious people. They seem to think that a lack of special treatment is equivalent to discrimination.
I’m angry that some people who were fortunate enough to grow up in a family with moderate beliefs deny how much religion hurts their fellow believers. (For example, when Muslims who are fortunate enought to be in a moderate family say that Muslims in Muslim countries want to follow the horrible rules, while ignoring Muslim women who speak out about how they were treated.)
I’m angry that some religious people talk about how wonderful and nice their religion is to them while completely ignoring how horribly religious leaders or believers in their church, temple, mosque, etc. treat people outside their religion.
I’m angry that some religious people can’t understand that maybe — just maybe — someone who is condemned to Hell by their holy book may not like their holy book very much.
Thanks again for writing this.
It appears to me that you are angry that there is freedom of religion and that someone has a different opinion about life than you do. Do you really need to convert others to your way in order to validate your beliefs. I dare say that the only religious people you come in contact with are not really christian(Christ Like). Or maybe those bad experiences you have had with so called christians, is all you recall. If that is not the cause of your anger then, maybe it is because you would like to take away the voice and freedoms of anyone who does not share in your lifestyle. You do not have to believe in God, but you still believe in something. There was a very old teacher who suggested that you love your neighbor as yourself. Might seem simple and common to some self proclaimed wise men, but it can only help. How can it hurt?
I would like to add something to my above comment. As a christian, I have to say that I have felt and been the victim of much persecution, the same thing that you say makes you so angry is what you would like to do to someone else. That is ridiculous. If you hate being censored then why would you be willing to censor? I doubt that you will answer any of my questions. But I hope you will consider what I suggest. If you dont then I will not become angry. I will be sad, but not angry. Oh and I just have to say that any one could take the bible and use it out of text to influence people to be atheist. But that is a dirty trick and you have to ask yourself why you would want to do that? I keep thinking of things I want to express. I would like to challenge you to clear your head of every thing you have been told or just thought. Now go after answers like you were honestly interested in knowing the truth. Dont rule out anything just because you can not explain it. Because be honest with yourself, you do not know it all. There are so many books written with the purpose of indoctrination. Avoid these or read them the same way that you would read the bible. With your mind open and eager for truth. I did this and this is how I came to my conclusion, I am sorry if that angers you. I cant help myself, I cant deny the evidence that is in front of my face. I dont claim to understand it all, but who does. That does not mean that I am wrong for believing. Well all said, I hope that when someone offends you, maybe you could consider the fact that they are not walking in the spirit, and they are human and we all make mistakes. Try a little forgiveness. It makes for a better you and me.
Excellent post Greta. Exquisitely and forcefully and unrelentingly said, and still valid after years.
They say we atheists don’t accept god because of anger in our hearts. Actually most believers believe in god not out of love but out of fear and intense social pressure. We don’t have the first and we reject the second.
I love this post – I wasn’t an angry atheist before but I am now!
You are absolutely right to be angry.
I work with a domineering religous person who prays several times a day – he negotiates rates with prostitutes in front of colleagues and has the worst complaints record for making sexual approaches to female colleagues I’ve ever come across. I asked him straight if that was in line with his alleged beliefs and he told me absolutely not.
But he’ll tell me all day what a bad person I am for not believing in God.
I ask him if all the people in the world were taken away would God actually exist? He goes blank at that one.
Betweent the ages of 15 and 19 I was a dedicated Mormon – and it just dawned on me one day I believed in evolution and left. I met up with the Mormon leaders I knew afterwards – and some were into business cons and all kinds of stuff (I live in the UK).
You do not need to be religious in order to have a code of morality based on basic, common sense humanistic principles.
The 10 Commandments come from people and basic principles of human social interaction – God was invented by power-hungry people who wanted status over others around them by claiming to have special access to the creator of the universe.
I don’t mind religion if it makes people happy – but I do mind it when BS-ers try to enforce their so called beliefs, when they don’t really believe them themselves, on me when I live a more honest, more religious-like life than they ever will.
I had a nice-natured JW at the door the other day and I explained how I get happy simply by getting in touch with my inner world on a regular basis through my own emotions – I don’t need an outside force to tell me how to live my life to make me happy.
I think I almost converted that lady to atheism; she looked a bit worried when she left.
Regards – Carl
A concern that I have is that even if we atheists and nonbelievers and whatever else we call ourselves are successful in toppling the behemoth monster religion that has rooted itself into humanity (rotting it from within like a cancer) even if we’re able to convince a majority that despite any appearance of goodness it offers, the horrors & restrictions of faith are far worse for mankind, even if we can do all that, it won’t be enough. There will always be a quiet minority of people who still believe. They may say publicly they agree, but privately they will wait, for generations maybe, for a chance to prey again on ignorance and superstition, so they can once again convert others to the delusion of an imaginary friend hiding just beyond the realms of perception, who will do your bidding so long as you pledge your life to its cause. When we are successful in casting false beliefs to the shadows, they will be angry. That anger will fuel them when they become a force for change. Somewhere along the way, we’re gonna have to figure out how to keep that from happening. But we have to get there first.
Reason over righteousness.
Good job, nice piece!
I disagree that anger is *always* necessary. It has its place, and well-used, well-placed, well-regulated and well-directed anger is a boon.
Nothing in life is *always* necessary – not even life itself.
If you can sum up ethics with “do unto others…” Why then do you not recognize the wisdom of “two wrongs do not make a right” Vitriol is vitriol and it has the same effect whatever its source.
While I applaud your courage to step up and use your “anger” to shine a light on the injustices that surround this and so many other issues in our society, I can’t help but notice a couple things.
First – you have a lot of anger attached to things that human beings have done with their distorted relationships with the “divine” (whatever that is and whatever they chose to call it). Is that what atheism is about? I thought atheism was about an individual’s sprituality. What you’ve written here is all about everyone else’s sprituality.
The biggest question and problem I have with many world religions and their outspoken devotees, is that they seem to define themselves against everyone else – building up a positive identity in negative terms of what they are not. At what point does a person (monotheist, polytheist, or atheist) stand up and say something about their spirituality and claim their identity in terms of who they ARE, instead of who they are NOT?
Secondly, I agree with you that anger has been and will continue to be a strong motivator for social change. But there is a difference between anger and outrage. Anger is a blinding emotion that is centered in ego. How many social revolutions, sparked by someones anger have only resulted in changing the power structure to switch the exploiters to the exploited. This solves nothing. If the drive for change is based on the anger that says “What about ME?”, no valid social change will occur as a direct result.
Maybe seeing our way out of anger, and transforming that energy to a more intellectual stance, like outrage, could be better? To me, “outrage” implies that it is not about ego, but about the bigger picture. That entire groups are exploited, discriminated or disrespected… that promoting interpretations of reality as indisputable truth does violence to individual experience of that reality… divorced from emotion and ego, these statements are much easier to engage constructive discussions with, and maybe, hopefully, people can come together for change instead of pushing each other further apart.
Maybe I’m splitting semantic hairs here. And in the fires of conviction, perhaps this subtlety is quickly consumed. I simply ask you this – if you re-write (or re-think) your arguements above from the big picture instead of ego-centric anger, what does it look like?
I read about this blog from a friend. Interested, I decided to follow it. I got about one fact in, when I was let down.
Your first fact says only 45% of Americans would vote for an Athiest. Your pie chart, the one right beside it, says the exact opposite.
Was it a typo? Was it your anger leading your words before your thoughts? Perhaps. Doesnt matter.
What does matter is that anyone reading this with an open mind is going to see that and think “they cant even get one fact in without twisting it” and close their minds again.
And thats a damn shame. Youve got a lot of great things to say. As an Athiest myself, Id rather we tried to achieve some amount of perfection in the facts we represent. If we don’t, we seem uncertain. Uncertainty in the face of Faith is a slippery slope.
I think you’ve done some great work here, and made some great points. I just thought Id point out the flaw that was so glaring right off the first note itself. Its a poor opening to an otherwise hard and well done peice of work.
The graph is wrong, the number cited is right. Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/Some-Americans-Reluctant-Vote-Mormon-72YearOld-Presidential-Candidates.aspx
Between now and the 2008 political conventions, there will be discussion about the qualifications of presidential candidates — their education, age, religion, race, and so on. If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be âŠ, would you vote for that person?
An atheist….. 45 [Yes, would vote for]….. 53 [No, would not vote for]
Amazing that you would criticize Mother Theresa (and thousands of years) for giving ‘inadequate’ care to thousands of people, and as a result of her celebrity (that eventually grew), she remained in her vow of poverty, and gave all she was ever given, to the sick in and outside of the hospitals and ghettos she worked in, throughout her entire life.
You are one, bitter, inadequate-feeling person, to go after M.T. with anger.
Many nuns, for thousands of years were the only ones caring for lepers, mentally and physically handicapped and those with plague etc.
There were no secular humanists on the scene in Bogota Columbia, bathing the lepers, eating moldy food and sleeping in rat-shit. Or in the rest of the world, for that matter.
Almost without exception, the only time secular humanists do this is for a ‘doctors without borders trip’ or a ‘peace-corps’ trip for 2-years max (with rare exception), so they can call it an ‘adventure’ and later, put it on the resumes.
Or, the other 2 (chuckle chuckle), habitat for humanity, or abortion (women – unequivocally – killing their babies, and often out of ignorance)rights marches and fundraisers.
The right and the Christians have many poor examples throughout history. But the detractors always fail to mention the many great ones that far outnumber the poor examples (this is all-too-often the case with good being mentioned more than bad). Even Voltaire, in the end of his life, recognized and admitted such. The left and the secular humanists, even in their short history, have little or no real charity, that leaves them bankrupt, sick or dead (rare exceptions), but the Christians/Catholics (prior to the 18th century, when protestant missionary work started – 2 centuries after the reformation) were the sole providers of Charity, for almost 1,800 years. All too many monks, nuns, brothers, friars and priests died while contracting the diseases of the sick and poor they cared for in leprosy and plague outbreaks, as well as malaria, polio, and multitudes of other diseases.
I can assure you, there were many atheists and agnostics during that time period as well.
There are still pretty much none on record, doing any serious, harmful to them charity, anywhere.
Thousands of hospitals, all of the first universities, thousands of other schools, clean water around the 3rd world, houses in the 3rd world…almost all of them that were done by Charity, were done by Catholics, and recently Protestants.
The left and the atheists: They’re too selfish, self-centered and obsessed with themselves, to step outside of themselves.
I think you should read Thomas Woods’ ‘How the Catholic Church Built Civilization’.
I know it will do nothing to change your mind, but it would be good for you to read anyhow. You seem to suffer from the syndrome called ‘unhappiness with yourself’.
I’m far from a 100% believer, but do also know my history, and do know that many, many, many great things have been done by Catholics for 2,000 years, to which you’ll not credit one bit. And much of it (especially the charity) was done out of love, not fear or hate.
What I have found to be so ironic (I used to be an atheist, and a liberal one at that) is that there are 2 camps: The cool-headed rationalist (which I have much more respect for, of which Christopher Hitchens is somewhat an example of) and the haters, who are always saying it is the righty, or the Christian (of course rarely the moderate) that is full of hate.
The secular humanists, under the banner of socialism and communism and statisn, butchererd 40,000 Eastern Orthodox priests over a 4 year period, 60 years ago. The secular humanists, under the banner of socialism/communism/statism killed roughly (legit numbers)100 million people in their wars for power, in the 20th century. I sadly shake my head when they try to turn Hitler into a practicing Catholic, or say that Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, and all of the horrible leaders of the Russian Soviet experiment were just ‘misguided’ and that at some point, many of them used to be Christians.
Correct, used to be, until they adopted communism/statism and atheism. Then the eugenics, abortions, racial (under the guise of natural selection) genocide started. The nazis were the German socialist party of Germany. Hitler’s philosphy was 1-part Darwinism, 1 part Marxism and 1-part Statism, all with campy gear to boot. This was all after he left his Catholicism behind, and adopted the atheist/agnosto-statist ‘brave new world’.
The god-hating butchers of the 20th century killed more than all the deaths, caused by religion, in 5,000 years, combined. Simple plain fact.
And your camp spends effort (ad nauseum) running away and rationaliizing, and outright denying this.
Funny, the haters (angry?) in your camp are much more vitriolic, and much larger in number, per capita, in my experience, than the haters on the right, or within Christianity. And I’ve spent a great deal of time in both camps.
I would also say that you have a severe case of arrested development. You seem like a miserable person, that really wants something deeper, than yourself, but are yet obsessed, and suffer from Pan-Syndrome.
My guess is you (unfortunately) were abused (sexually) as a child, and have never really quite grown since your latter teens. You have achieved success perhaps, but from reading your tone and your style, I can see great immaturity. Like the kid who gets a plate of food from their parents, and spits the peas out on the table and messes up everybody’s dinner.
And I say all of this not because I may disagree with you on atheism vs. theism, but because of your immature tone.
PS, Just so you don’t try to turn me into a back-wood fundie; I am an old-earth creationist, that allows for certain aspects of evolution, in the school of Thomas Aquinas, and his 5 proofs for the existence of God – Prime Mover argument.
I am always open to the notion of agnosticism, and love science. However, atheism requires the exact leap of faith that total belief in God requires, and yet this leap of faith for atheism craps on the most basic law of science known to man (very few women, sorry): that energy can come out of nothing.
Be well, and I don’t mean to make you ‘angry’ as I know this really riles up the atheists (as it used to rile me and all of my equally sheep-like friends), but I’ll pray for you, as a hateful person.
I can handle your rant, and am fully capable of accommodating your perspective, but the bashing Mother Theresa part was just pathetic, and sad. Also, sadly typical.
Be well, er, get better.
A Catholic Man – you know that Christopher Hitchens is one of MT’s most vocal critics, right?
Three words alone can I share with u God loves u.
I am sorry you are so angry, but it might give you purpose in life. My anger makes me miserable and sick. My anger does not help me, it hurts me. I used to be angry all of the time until I started accepting the unacceptable I could not change and forgiving the unforgivable that happened to me. I am the weakest person in the world, I can not change any one and few things. I change what I can. I am the most powerful person in the world, I can change me. I do not know if Jesus is God or not. To me, he was a wise and coragious person on the cross by accepting gracefully things he could not change and relieving his emotional anger by forgiving the unforgivable insults to him.
He reminds me of the well adjusted survivors of Hitler’s camps.
I’m angry because Of church signs that are trying to be clever but are just disguising guilt
I’m angry that Christians can come to my door and try and browbeat me into submission
Damn Greta, Powerful stuff. You are in fine form. I will be sharing this post.
Amazing post. I will be posting a direct link to this post on my blog. More of the sheep in the world need to read this. BTW, I am one of those snarky atheists and a humanist. Keep up the good work.
“I’m angry at preachers who tell women in their flock to submit to their husbands because it’s the will of God, even when their husbands are beating them within an inch of their lives.”
This happened to my Mom. It makes me angry too. People go to their place of worship to get help and get sent back to the hand that bruises and beats them. To the voice that belittles and breaks them.
Not right.
This was an enlightening read. I never described myself as athiest… or anything else, for that matter, but I agree 100% with what you wrote above. Living in the south, I see and hear about things every day that anger me. Did you know during Halloween they have something called a “Hell House” and what it is, basically, is a “Haunted House”esque building, but instead of ghosts and zombies and shit like that, they show women having abortions and dying horrible deaths and going to hell, gay people burning in hell, “sinners” of all kinds… burning in hell. And church’s take kids through that shit in droves… It’s absolutely horrifying and it makes me so angry every time it comes around.
Anyway…I just wanted to say… “attaboy”
fantastic post! You’ve pretty much told what I feel angry about most of the time.
Keep up the good work!
Arek
http://arekphotography.blogspot.com/
I hate it when Christians laugh at old religions or other religions when they don’t think other people are laughing at them. My writing tutor was a HUGE Christian believer and once my sister argued with her about evolution and creation. She actually went to a university based on creation. And my sister said there were huge amounts of EVIDENCE HARD PURE EVIDENCE but my tutor STILL DENIED IT! Did it not say in the bible that God created a human that looked like a modern human today? And apparently made a female out of his ribs. I am appalled that we have to say WOMAN from a CHRISTIAN THEORY! Back to the tutor. SHE LAUGHED AT INDIANS and THEIR RELIGION! She said that it was hilarious that Indians would let cows wander around cause they think they are holy. I think it was plain rude. I was small that time so I didn’t back my sister up, but now that I think of it, I think I should’ve said SHUT THE FUCK UP. And prayer is the ONLY thing you can TALK TO GOD? SEriously if I prayed right now that we would win the lottery I DON”T THINK WE CAN. What are we supposed to pray about anyways? Theres nothing we can do. One time my friend’s grandpa was dying so she prayed that he would live. I know it seemed heartless but I sorta was certain he was going to die anyways. She prayed EVERYDAY til his funeral. And she still thinks God is real. Wouldn’t a Christian feel mad? And I read a book and it was about this girl’s friend who converted to Christianism and SUICIDED by not eating. She thought it was her duty and her mom was so depressed she suicided. Thanks God! You made two people DIE. I think that Christians should mind their own business and not drag their religious belief to define things or to argue. I say if they want to prove that Jesus Christ or God is real they should get real proof and not by a book that was written by anyone. I mean back in the old days I could write a book on a mouse god and if i was pretty convincing I think I would’ve won. I say they should stop talking about them being right and let them crawl into the hole for a change and see what its like being mocked of our religion or non believers.
Well done.
Any organisation (like the Catholic Church) that teaches children that if they don’t obey their leader they will go to Hell is guilty of child abuse.
The first step towards creating the golden age is to get the fucking churches out of our schools!
love,
Gareth
[email protected]
A friend emailed me the URL to this page of your blog. I found myself in tears through a good portion of it. All I can say is that I’m sorry. I’m so very, very sorry.
Thank you for sharing your views. I appreciate the effort it took to compile your thoughts and share them as you did. I agree with you that Christians have often done the world, and God for that matter a great disservice throughout history. As a Christian myself I am often troubled by what humanity has done in the ‘name of God.’
We all need to lend an listening ear to each other more often. Instead of trying so hard to convince others to simply believe as we do. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
The one other thing I would add to your list is being angry that the Xians claim that this is a “xian nation” because it was founded on “xian morals and values” when the truth couldn’t be farther from the truth. Even the few founding fathers that actually were xian (most were either atheist or deists) strongly and completely agreed with the concept of separation of church and state, and that religion should have no influence over our government. They understood how corrupt and incomprehensible the church and its teachings were and wanted nothing to do with shoving it down everyone’s throats.
“She said that it was hilarious that Indians would let cows wander around cause they think they are holy.”
Eh, I think this is kind of stupid myself.
Eh, I think this is kind of stupid myself.
I think her point might have been that it’s even stupider when people who hold really silly beliefs themselves, laugh at other people’s silly beliefs. ‘You kind of don’t have any business thinking holy cows are stupid, when you yourself believe in talking snakes’-sort of thing.
Keith: More to the point, the original colonies had varying levels of religious toleration, ranging from the notorious abuses of puritan Massachusetts to Roger Williams’ Rhode Island experiment in religious toleration, and the Constitutional Convention chose the latter for its model.
The decision to not mention a deity in any way (even the “by the grace of God” sort of language that was typical at the time) was controversial, and was not any sort of accidental omission.
while the U.S. has always been predominantly populated by Christians, as a country it was created by and is defined by its constitution, and that creation was consciously non-religious.
I feel the SAME way .
Finally someone who FEELS as I do ….
Absoltely brilliant, all my thoughts plus some extra brilliant points articulated in the best way possible. Anger, vent your anger, but non-violently!
You rock – but I was kinda angry that you capitalized the word god.
I have a strange need to defy conformity, even in the simplest actions.
HMmmmm. From reading your Blog I think you might just be a bit angry.Thank goodness you prefaced your Blog by saying your beliefs ae not shared by all Atheists. Me think that your anger could really stems from the fact that all those opposing “Religious Folk” don’t share your beliefs, whatever they might be.HMmmm I wonder if you believe in the “Tooth Fairy” ?
You tell em buddy. We’re not gonna take this shit anymore.
On a related note, here’s a really good atheist store I found. Well, primarily atheist and science stuff…
Aristotle’s Muse
Maybe wearing an atheist T-shirt won’t change the world, but then again, maybe it could.
Damn straight!
I’m angry because in most communities I have been, these people have every advantage in business and politics which they have used to make trouble for me at every turn, and then they have the nerve to act like my frustration is due to my godless views.
Assholes!
this is awesome! You are legendary, Greta. I feel for you, and i wish we could do something to change the injustice for atheists.
I think that religion should be completely banned from all places except from the peoples own homes, the internet and any places of worship that religion needs(churches, mosques, etc.)
If this happened, the world would be a better place.
-Blackhoof
Well done . bloody briliant. Im one of the 10 odd athiests in my town and we are stuck between the two most conflicting parts a of a religion which is catholisism and protestant(this spelling is the actual spelling not the common prodestant)( the name dirrives from the word protest which is what matin luther the creator of the protestant part of the christian religion did he protested against the catholic church and became a protestant)and we are insulted and attacked by both of the parts the christian belief. Although the clame to be a christian they are not folowing the teaching of their suposed leader of if i remember corectly was a non-violent person and this angers me as they clmae to be a folower of their religion but are evidently not. And they are also arogant selfrightous ass holes.
But the only reason i am an atheist is because (although i’m NOT a pacifist) i belive that religion creates to many conflicts and i would prefare peace as would most. but i also respect their veiws if they want to belive in god thats fine but dont force it on to people who don’t want it. and for the love of shit dont critizie me for my beliefs. Thank you. ( by the way im from ireland banbridge and send me an email if your irish too. ([email protected])
no spam please
also the teacher u mentioned sounds like an ass i have one just like him
on our exam paper he put as a christian how can the church influence every day life my responce : it cant.
Personally I’m shocked that the spelling ‘Prodestant’ is apparently common!
Yes, but anyone complaining about spelling should learn how to spell “derives”, “claim”, “following”/”follower”, “supposed”, “arrogant”, “self-righteous”, “prefer”, “criticize” and “you’re”.
I also think writing comes across a bit better with capitalization and punctuation.
Laziness I can understand, but when explicitly complaining about spelling it’s hard to ignore the loud beeping from the irony meter.
I’m glad that some people make sense in this world. I for one am strongly athiest, and I don’t think that there’s some big ol’ invincible, infinite god way up there in the sky. It makes virtually no sense and there is no proof of it at all, so with a little thought I’ve decided that I don’t believe it. Does that mean that all this crap should happen? NO. this is one of the reasons why I don’t like America.
strangely enough, this blog about anger was a great source of relief for me. this was my first reading, but i will most definitely be coming back. great job.
In all my atheist life, I have never found a way or a voice to articulate my exact sentiments. Thank you. Thank you for giving me a voice and inspiring me to stand up for my anger!!
I recently stopped going to church for all of these reasons.
I believe there is a god.
and for the first time I feel ashamed to say that I belong to this HORRIBLY hypocritical religious group…
but like you I am mad as hell.
Thank you. 🙂
Bravicimo!!!
Never have i read the words of someone with such an understanding of the way of life. truly awe inspiring.
I wanted to say thanks. Especially about the illness bit. See, when I was a kid, I had a bike accident that changed my life forever. First, just the accident (knocked out my permanent front tooth.) Two weeks later, I almost died from brain bleeding: note that this is the first recorded incident of a hematoma occurring so late after the initial incident. Doctors did not know what to do with me, and I needed the best care the state could provide me. At eleven years of age, I had to have brain surgery. Serious stuff. I will never. Be the same.
My experiences led me to atheism. There’s no reason a loving God would have put me through all that, and that’s just me. My family has gone through much sadness and pain: I’d get into it a little bit, but I always end up sounding like a sad story, when really, it’s just the truth and I am in a good place.
If God loved me and my family, we wouldn’t have had to deal with such trauma. I eventually became sick of people telling me that it’s a miracle I lived: no it isn’t. I’m lucky, yes; but fortunate to have had the best medical care money could buy. I had the top neurosurgeons in the state working with me, at one of the best public hospitals in the country. I was lucky for THAT. For money, generosity and science. God would not have wanted me to almost die and use me like a fucking near-casualty for some greater purpose. Screw you for telling me that crap.
I lived in a big, Jewish community and I was fairly vocal about my atheism at first, when people asked anyway. I remember being called “the a-word” like it was some abomination. And this is from kids whose rabbi preached about religious tolerance at their mitzvahs. Screw you.
But what REALLY gets me is intolerance about sexual orientation. Obviously Obama understands that being gay is as natural as being straight, right? So then why does he not support gay marriage? As a heterosexual atheist, I can get married to my boyfriend and that’s fine, but it’s somehow wrong and sacrilegious when a glbt couple, who may even be religious or spiritual, gets married. It goes against the sanctity of marriage somehow? But as an a-religious person, I can marry no problem because I like men and not women. There’s something wrong here.
Thanks again for pretty much a pefect article: or, a perfect tip of the iceberg.
Anger is bad for your health, my friend. Buddhist atheism is preferable as it is devoid of any encouragement on negative feelings.
Thank you and more power to you.
Thank you for writing this.
I am neither a “traditional” believer nor am I an atheist. I am a human. And everything that you are angry about, I am too. I just wish that both sides could see that there is room for all beliefs. That if we approach every aspect of life and each other with compassion and tolerance first that maybe we could find a way to live in peace. I get angry at both sides. I also send love to both sides. I wish there weren’t sides. We are human and what ever gets you through this life, what ever beliefs you embrace to find peace, whoever you love, how you choose to live….as long as you aren’t hurting anyone….do it, be it, and let others do the same. Diversity is beautiful.
I just wish that the believers would wake up to the wonders of science and embrace it as truth. It in no way takes from their “God”. If anything it shows just that much more there is to “it”. And I wish that atheists wouldn’t consider believers to be daft or stupid because they have embraced the wonderment, the mystery, and find peace in something that hasn’t yet been proven.
Let’s face it. None of us know. We find what works for us. I just wish that hate, bigotry, and greed didn’t “work” for so many people. Wake the fuck up world. No one is going anywhere. We are stuck together on this planet. We need to learn to get along.
Ah, betty, if only it were that simple.
We are humans, and we love to fight! We love to debate, love to have a pack mentality towards another group, love to be in rivalry or competition.
Even if everyone saw eye to eye on religion, they would fight over another thing. That is why world peace is impossible, because their will always be another thing to fight over.
Here’s one more thing for you to be angry about: You misused the word “enormity” in this article.
HERE HERE!!!
Oh- and I’m angry that I was “confirmed” in a religion with no choice of my own, already being an atheist. Being told what I must believe with no choice of my own? Despicable.
Another interesting piece with some very valid points.
But I do get worried when people are overly angry all the time. Of course this is easily said by me as I am an upper middle class, tertiary educated, white, heterosexual male so the only minority I am part is the atheist one.
Some of the points raised are a bit repetitive. It’s a bit like complaining about the poor state of the engine on your car, and the fact that the panel work is in poor condition and that it leaks when it rains. Simply coming up with a list of multiple symptoms that make one annoyed (or angry) is a bit of a waste of energy, when the root cause is actually that you have an old car which needs replacing.
Other points raised are just pointless getting angry about i.e. anything said by Jerry Falwell. Sometimes we just need to realise when someone is a twat and walk away from their vitriolic rantings. Even most xtian’s are embarrassed by people like Jerry Falwell.
I’m not sure if an atheist should be using David and Goliath as a parable for change through anger (or using it at all), as firstly (from what I remember) the moral of that story is that faith in God will let you conquer your enemies, secondly it was actually technology (the sling) that conquered Goliath, not God or David or anger.
We need to remember that while anger has its uses those uses are mainly as a vent for emotions, as well as a catalyst to provide the energy to initiate change.
While it is very human and sometimes useful to get angry, anger is at opposites to rational thinking (sorry to sound like a Vulcan!). Anger won’t convince anyone of anything, it may make them scared of you, but in the end it won’t bring any one over to your side of the argument.
Anger alone is about as useful as pray in getting something done.
Yes, religion as an institution, where people tell other people how to live their lives according to their interpretation to their texts is arguably wrong. I agree with that. But I also do believe that unindoctrinated spirituality (a respect for life, a connection to the Divine) in all its shapes and forms is GOOD. Belief in the supernatural does not lead to people fighting each other…it’s only dangerous when these beliefs are made into an institution. And granted, some institutions do EXACTLY what you mentioned- there are some, Neo-Paganism comes to mind, that do not.
And so in the spiritual sense, atheism does take as much faith as spirituality because it is in fact just as difficult to disprove any supernatural presence as it is to prove it. No one really knows. And I do feel that this point should be taken into consideration.
So I guess I both agree and disagree with you-since I consider myself to be spiritual without belonging to any certain religion. But as you said, the most important thing is to practice tolerance when it just becomes a matter of faith. 🙂
Peace to you.
you are absolutely right. Atheism DOES take a leap of faith.
Only, most atheists take that leap of faith because there is more… well, not EVIDENCE, per sey, but there are many things that make it difficult to believe in a supreme being.
Still, you have a very noble and good view of things, and religion or spirituality can be very good in the hands of the right people.
Just wanted to say this is an awesome post. Stumbled/facebooked/tumblred, the whole deal.
My comment is: I love you. I could write a long list of reasons why, but you just voiced everything I have always felt. I am angry too. I hope you and Ingrid can be married, in your state, in this lifetime.
And to all you Christians quoting Corinthians and your magic book written and rewritten and translated and re-translated. The book which has been ripped off from the stories and myths or so many other religions and cultures before Christ, your Bible quotes mean nothing to us because we think your book is nothing more than a collection of fairytales and horror stories. We are no more scared of your Hell or Satan than we are of a Gremlin, the bogeyman, a Pokemon or any other fictional character. In other words, WORST ARGUMENT EVER.
God bless. (Just kidding.) Seriously, you are amazing. I am a new blog follower.
After three years your article still makes good points and an impact on people. I hope the fire hasn’t gone out!
I’m an atheist too, but I don’t think you should be angry. You shouldn’t pick out things like ‘It took until 19whenever for this to be legal’ because it’s done now. And you don’t like things religious groups do, I get that. But really, so what? You make good points and everything but this doesn’t change a thing.
I don’t think religious people are going to want to hear what you have to say because you don’t seem to care about what they have to say.
How can you be angry they don’t respect your rights when you won’t respect them? You’re just making this into a war and not taking the high road at all.
I think it would be good if you put aside your anger and tried to fight for religious equality for everyone because this just isn’t getting anywhere.
Lauren: They are married. Prop 8 (which is now overturned but more marriages stayed pending appeals) did not invalidate marriages, like Greta and Ingrid’s, performed before it came into effect. That is to say, the “recognized” portion was already overturned.
whatever … yawn. it will be ok, and consider that many things do not matter, really.
i wish you werent gay im 17 and ive read your stuff and i think im in love
Thanks for taking the time to express in well written prose all the reasons why I’m angry at theists/theism. I would have had neither the time nor the talent.
Given the circumstances, I think we have a right to be angry. I also think that anger can and should be used creatively as a tool to fight the oppression we as atheists (and gays in my case) are subjected to by theists.
I am more hopeful than I used to be. I think the web is a wonderful free-speech-tool for spreading rationality and debunking theism. Gains are slow but atheism is growing in America. We should never surrender or yield to hopelessness and resignation to the status quo. Things can and do change – I’m thinking in terms of Dawkins’ “changing zeitgeist” here – and we must all of us do what we can to speed the change.
Thank you for doing your bit.
Me too. Amazing blog.
You are completely right about many of these things. I agree, that anger is the best weapon for any revolution or uprising. Religion has been destroying minds for thousands (Probably even millions…) of years. I’m not the type of person to go up to someone and say “Hey! Your belief is wrong!” But once they come up to me with that garbage I cut down their spirituality with my machete of logic 🙂
I enjoyed reading this very much! Sort of made me feel empowered.
Thank you. This was a fantastically written post and I wholeheartedly agree.
Wow, this is like the best thing I’ve read in forever and I’m sharing it will all my friends and frenemies. Thank you for being so thorough and so thoughtful. Just, wow.
thanks for expressing what I often feel but could never articulate this well.
Well done! My rage at religion makes me incoherent.
Spot on.
Just thought I’d chuck in another personal anger-grenade – the murder of William Tyndale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale
….and massive lols at the person saying Catholicism is a small sub-sect of Christianity. Oh deary me.
Ms Greta,
Superbly well written piece; terming it a wonderful eye-opener is an understatement!
THANK YOU.
Now-I wish that EVERY SINGLE American who professes faith would read it!!!
Well. I just have to add this one thing. Love is juts as powerful as anger, in fact more so. Personally I fight a lot harder out of love than because something pisses me off. I love good people. I don’t care about what religion they call themselves or even if they annoyingly try to “save me” from time to time. I am happily pagan. I hate people who do terrible things. I shake my head and pity stupid intolerant people because they are missing out on so many wonderful people that could be in their lives. I don’t hate them though. They are the ones missing out.
Well said.
And may I add the anger that can be seen at an anti-mosque or anti-gay or anti-abortion rally? How much Hell gets tossed around by lowlifes whose only job it seems is to shout at us slogans with no basis in reality and maybe that’ll cause a mass conversion of millions?
Tip Top piece. I read it in my usual angry atheist way too. Keep up the good work.
May reason set us free,
Simon. UK
You just made my day with this post–thank you!!
Best thing I’ve read in ages!!
Absolutely magnificent.
I’ve been feeling my anger ebb away slowly over the months, as I feel more and more like I just need to keep the peace.
But fuck the peace, coz’ it ain’t there at the moment. It’s just me surrendering my empowerment, and suppressing my emotions for no good reason other than I don’t want to be stigmatised. Well fuck that, now 🙂
Now I’m fired up (as I’m sure you can tell). I want to do something again. Thanks for giving me my anger back – this time I promise I won’t treat it like a dirty growth. I shall embrace it, and encourage it, and wield it like a shiny knife! No… a samurai sword!! Or a flashbang grenade, that will stun my prey, so I can get in closer to deliver the killing blow.
Thanks so much!!
Never heard of you before, but you’re awesome!
Thank you. This article means so much to me. Thank you, and again, thank you!
FUCK YEAH! I’m as angry as a hornet sometimes because I think! I question! I have faith in the scientific method and humans to use their brains! And their hearts! and their eyes! And that we could be learning so much more about ourselves and the world and EVERYTHING if we had ideas instead of beliefs to defend!
Thank you for validating my anger and reminding me why it is important.
For all my friends that have suffered for being homosexual or just sexually curious and explorative. For everyone that was not the other=EVERYONE! Everyone that’s been brainwashed, propagandized, shamed into feeling guilty, wrong, damned!
I’ve coined myself a FLAMING ATHEIST for we know what others think will become of me.
and you know what I say to that?
BURN BABY BURN!
It’s the fuel to keep fighting, the gage that tells me I still care, still give a damn, and that I’m not dead!
THANK YOU, KINDRED!
Thank you so much for this article. This is some of the best reading I’ve had in a long time. I love you Greta. Someday we’ll get you married.
Move over Richard Dawkins, from now on I’m worshipping Greta!
Wow, that was such a brilliant, utterly brilliant post, that I am actually kind of in love with you right now!
Phew!
And you are so RIGHT, it was a pleasure to read! This article should be required reading inreligious classes in schools! Seriously!
I’ve never read any of your blog before, I was sent the link by a friend who stumbled on it.
Anyway, I wish you happiness and good fortune, and carry on!
Mike
I loved the Blog. That was enough anger for all of us agnostics and Atheists. Every single on of the anger points are very valid!
Well said, Greta! Let’s face it – if no one in the world believed in anything supernatural, it would be a lot better place, with much less anger and much more peace.
Thank you Greta for this eye opening article.
You echo my feeling that religion does much more harm than good.
A great start would be to remove tax exempt status from these organizations that often amount to be nothing more than “motivational speakers”.
A friend of mine shared this on facebook.
wow.
you put it all perfectly…
amazing.
thank you.
holy crap you rock!!
95% of christians need to read this but none will in my opinion we are angry and if the theists would understand why and stop legislating with religion and get out of Individual freedoms way the anger could subside SWome but it will grow as I say (95%) wont read it and those that do will not allow it to be comprehended
Sublime, Greta,
It was two angry lesbian feminists who, 25 years ago, convinced me of the virtue of angry confrontation. It was a tough pill to swallow for me at the time, but their anger, combined with reason, finally persuaded me of the value of their position. No amount of soft, gentle discussion would have rocked me off my position (regarding women’s rights, on the one hand, and the art of persuasion, on the other).
Ever since, I’ve valued a multi-pronged approach to debating and confronting my ideas to those of others.
Thanks.
Hi,
just to let you know that your words are really going around the world (which you probably know anyways), I wanted to show some appreciation from Germany. I often feel the same way especially about the futility of religious conflicts and the arguments behind them, as well as the abuse of power in the name of religion. Therefore, I enjoyed your words that expressed some of my thoughts very much to the point.
Keep up your work and don’t let negative comments get to you. Freedom of speech (and thoughts) is one of the highest goods and you are upholding it for many people.
I remember about Giordano Bruno…I wrote about him during my final exams at High School. That was a long time ago – 17 years! – but I’ll never forget what I learned about him back then. He had the courage to say that there were other worlds in the Universe, maybe similar to our own, where life may be abundant.
I also remember poor old Galileo. So he was “pals” with the Pope. But still he was condemned by the Catholic Church for 300 years. And then he was brought back to grace in the 1990’s. AS IF…
Wonderful post, I’ve bookmarked it – I think I’ll need to think about a few points I could add from the European (and ex-Polish) point of view. Like: I’m angry that Polish politicians, including the ex-president, Kwasniewski, who had claimed to be atheists, now want Church weddings, take part in masses, convince people “God is good”…And the fact that almost everyone has to be buried according to the Catholic Church rules. Even when they didn’t believe in god.
On top of that, I hate it when I remember my Grandfather dying and his doctor telling my Mum he (my Gramps) would be needing a priest ASAP. A doctor. In the hospital. In a very good hospital. Actually said that.
So again, thank you very much for your thought-provoking article, Greta. I’ll be a regular visitor from now on :))
Greta, I wish I could shake your hand and hug you. Your post has to be one of the most well-worded, true, significant, and astounding posts of this nature. I just wish more people would read it. What really ANGERS me, is some religious people who simply will NOT open their minds and even bother to read articles like this. Keep up the fantastic work Greta!
You should write that book and get it published by a publisher and into the bookstores. We need more atheist books in the bookstores.
-Staks
DangerousTalk.net
Greta:
This is the biggest bunch of drivel I have ever heard. You seem to rant on and on about everything and nothing. You are obviously running from something and staging your anger against God. Well Greta maybe you should sit down and talk to him and see how that works out.
It makes me chuckle (angry, angry chuckling) when Christians (like Brad) say that reading the bible will give you warm fuzzy feelings as if atheists don’t know what the bible already says and as if that is any type of reason to believe in anything in the first place. I could get drunk and high every day and be perfectly happy too, Brad. Regardless, please read Deutoronomy and get back to us about the warm fuzzy feelings you get…
Geesh.
Great, You need some serious help, you are a sick twisted person and you wonder why most people do not like atheists. I also think you need to get your facts straight.I do not look at you as being angry, i look at you as being very stupid. I do believe in god but i do not believe in the church. But i do agree with president bush in what he says about you atheists.
Just read this today…I am a Christian person, yet I’m angry about almost every single thing you mention. And I’m angry that, somehow, religious people (of all faiths, but especially Christians) have allowed/encouraged this kind of nonsense to become part of Christianity. Anyway, thanks for this post, from a Christian.
Say it loud, sister! Well written and true.
Keep the fire burning
xx
But Greta, tell us how you REALLY feel, LOL!
Wow, all I can say is…dayum! Great post!
Phew!
Powerful stuff. I didn’t realise that as an atheist I AM angry. Thank you.
I did notice one thing that gave me cause for thought: At one point you justified (y)our anger and I realised that the same arguments could be use by (say) Islamic extremists.
When I was undergoing counselling my counsellor suggested that I should use the energy that anger gives me in a positive manner. That is the difference between you and the mad bombers methinks.
BTW some of the replies would make good posts themsleves!
I agree that people have done lots of stupid stuff in the name of religion through the ages. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the religion itself is the problem.
Just like e.g. sexual instincts, drugs, driving a car etc. This is all good in itself, but it can certainly be abused. But we don’t stop driving cars because there are accidents. We don’t eradicate all drugs because some people abuse them, and we keep encouraging our sexual instincts, despite the fact that some of us abuses those instincts, and keeps raping and molesting etc.
To round it up, we are doing these things because they are necessary, even though a great risk follows with these things.
And if religion by any chance, not all happens to be only nonsense made up by a bunch of dupe people (desperately trying to find the meaning the life) nor is some kind of conspiracy, then religion is actually VERY necessary.
If all religion was proved to be a lie, then I agree that most of the necessity of religion would vanish.
That is one thing that troubles me a little with atheists, that they (I do not know if you do..) claim to KNOW that there is no God, and the world just begot naturally. Such a claim requires unlimited knowledge. (I bet you heard that one before)
I admit that I don’t know that there is a God, but I find it much more likely that there is a God, than not. (I am a christian for the record) Atheists has consequently failed to convince me and my human logics, that a non-God solution is probable..
I believe that content of christianity is right at many things, but is messed up, and atheists can rightfully be angry with loads and loads of stuff done by people in the name of christianity throughout history. But I find it highly probable that there is a God.
About anger. It is true that anger has led to many important victories throughout history. But as you also point out, anger is a dangerous tool, and I think we easily could have made a MUCH longer list than this one with catastrophies and stuff done by people blinded by anger throughout history.
As you point out, it is not the anger in itself that is the problem, but people using it wrong. It is exactly the same way about religion.
And one thing worth noticing about anger: in a debate, is an angry person more or less convincable than a person which is not angry?
And: is an angry person which is extremely hard to convince in a debate more or less impartial and objective?
my conclusion is: when you know something for sure, then you can go ahead raging your case ahead. Because when you really are sure, it is not harmful to the truth to sometimes leave objectivity behind.
Just as the womens suffrage movement, gay movement etc. They all knew they were treated unfairly, and they were right! (for the record: I do as a christian not condemn homosexuals, that is one of the things I believe the general christianity is mistaken in)
Mail me on [email protected] if you want to share your reactions on this. (just keep the text a little shorter than this blogpost! 😉
Thank you so much for this informative blog. Some of the criticisms you wrote about (your anger is not helping your cause, etc.) were hurled at me just yesterday! Your responses to those criticisms were right on and will be a help to me from now on! Love the way you write – love your thoughts – keep it up!
Well said!
Bravo!
I loved your article – you but a voice to my feelings with every example of anger. I am just curious as to why you still capitalize “god” in your writing?
Beautiful work! I love all the effort and passion you put into this. It is almost poetic even. Not only do religions and all religious concepts need to be eradicated permanently from existence, but we need to get the people who DO know better to stop being sniveling cowards.
If you say “well, people can believe whatever they want just as long as they dont try to force it on me or others”. That is the most selfish and useless thing I hear every day. THAT makes me even MORE angry than the religious nonsense every day, because the people who KNOW better are too much of a selfish coward to do anything to SAVE people FROM being taken advantage of by these vile poisonous lies and influences. A person like that is part of the problem. Everyone needs to stand up and do something about this. They are called the “braindead masses” for a reason. Only with us standing up and taking action about this can the masses actually be people of quality instead of braindead bigots. Eradicating religion does NOT mean killing religious people. It means destroying the power and influence that religion virus has over others until everyone in the world doesnt value it, want it, care for it, or think they need it. after that religion will die on its own. thats what needs to happen. That will only happen, when people stop being cowards and say HEY! I am proud to be a atheist/secular humanist/non believer. AKA I am proud to NOT have imaginary friends to be associated with a vile cult. Life is more meaningful without religion. We need to teach people this. 🙂 Keep up the anger! I am trying to get the psychology community to recognize religious beliefs, belief in a deity, racism, sexism, and all that as a vile mental illness that demands one have therapy and be institutionalized until they are “well enough to reenter society”. Religious people, racists, rapists, sexists, murders….they are all the same thing. They are NOT fit for society. only with proper consequences for such beliefs, can this be changed 😛
you know…i am a catholic…non practicing, more spiritual than religious for many reasons. not an athiest…more agnostic. I think there is something out there…energy maybe, but that is not why i decided to comment.
I decided to comment because these very same things piss the hell out of me too…and i wanted to join you in solidarity.
keep sharing!
Just wanted to thank you for this post. You’ve put into eloquent words exactly how I feel. I’m an atheist and I’m definitely angry.
We come to different conclusions about the existence of a god – I reason the evidences for Jesus and his claims are sufficient. And yet, I also share around 90% of the grievances you’ve listed here.
God loves you too Greta…P.S. for being an Atheist you sure do believe in my christianity/religion enough to hate it with a passion…I thought atheist did not believe in this? I guess God is putting some doubt in your mind after all. God bless you!
George H. Smith has said that atheists do not have to prove anything. I’d be angry about what you’re angry about… but since I don’t believe in what theists believe, the onus of proof of whatever they believe is on them. Sure, it may LOOK like they are somehow “getting away with it” as their ideas seem to make inroads in society… but believe me this: if you feel victimized by theists, you made it happen by actually treating their “arguments” as, well… worthy of argumentation. I don’t have to tell anyone what I DON’T believe, because I don’t have anything to prove. Just don’t give your sanction. Don’t give them legitimacy. And… let the theists – let THEM – stew, for once. It’s all a bunch of hot air and not worthy of my time… whatever I ought to object to, because I don’t have anything to DEFEND. I am the judge. I am the jury. The executioner? Let them shoot themselves in the foot… it’s not worth getting into and legitimizing their arguments.
Awesome article. Thanks for writing this! It’s exactly how I feel too.
This is truly excellent! Thank you!
Besides, I can argue on behalf of cultural optimism. We don’t live in the “Distant Mirror” of Barbara Tuchman’s version of the 14th century. If anything, given the advances in science and technology since then, mankind has advanced DESPITE those who have been brainwashed into thinking that everything we have today is because of a God. Atheists know otherwise.
JY — You didn’t read the post, did you? Atheists are not angry at Christians — or people of other religions — for “being wrong.” Religion is harmful. It damages lives. It destroys families. It kills people — in all kinds of ways. It is the most destructive and dehumanizing force on the face of the earth. THAT is why atheists are angry. Those who adhere to religion are part of the problem. They’re either actively engaging in those damaging activities or they are enabling and excusing them.
As for “fundamentalist atheists” — you’re wrong again. Atheism has no “basic ideas or principles.” It is one thing and one thing only — the lack of belief in a god or gods. Nothing more. Atheists come from all walks of life and hold opinions that span the spectrum in every aspect of life. There is no. Such. Thing. As a “fundamentalist atheist” — no matter how hard you want there to be, JY.
I’m angry ’cause I can’t marry TWO WOMEN (at the same time, that is.)!
Isn’t two mother-in-laws punishment ENOUGH? Why do I have to go to jail for something that David and Solomon just “got” for being mighty or wise or whatever? And why was it alright for them and not for anyone else? (2nd Samuel, 5:13)
I find it hilarious that there are commenters here expressing their anger over the fact that someone is angry about something. People who get angry about injustices are the same people who end up doing something about injustices. Meanwhile, the whiners sit on their hands and whine because they don’t like the fact that someone is angry about something.
So I ain’t gonna thank, apologize, disagree or anything like that, just observe: Your mind is apparently just as closed as the other side. So in other words, you value the way you live over that of another. You think that you figured it out and that these religious folk have got it wrong and that if they just could repent from their ways and join the truth then they’d get it.
“Maybe I don’t understand you…” that’s an important statement that you should ponder. How dare you assume that your singular life experience is enough to make as broad a generalization as “god doesn’t exist?” You might be right about the civil rights movements being based on anger, but you’re also missing a crucial point: they’re all based on the fact that no human is that different from another such that any civil right should be denied from them. This means that your anger, your misconceptions, and as many of your commenters have stated, their hatred for religion, means that you have missed the crucial point: We’re not that different you and I, maybe I just don’t understand everything about you. Is that so hard to understand? Isn’t that “rational?”
Personally, I have felt the presence of God in my life. Physically, viscerally, mentally. Can you deny my personal experience? I’ll admit, our idea of God has progressed far beyond those early stories and myths. But all that means is that people try to explain/simplify something that they don’t understand. Do you not see the parallel between your situation and theirs? We don’t have all the answers yet, we never will, and we certainly haven’t encountered any evidence proving anything about God.
So, If you want to continue to burn the straw man that you have set up here and ignore the real truth: that maybe, just maybe, you don’t know the answer.
Hooray, Skepticism: Only through uncertainty can any truth be discovered.
Huh.
I get the feeling that, as a Christian, I’m supposed to disagree with you, or at least feel offended.
But I agree. I’m pissed about the same shit.
I wanted to first say that itâs so nice to have found a kindred spirit greta. I also wanted to thank brad for illustrating more reasons to add to the mountain of reasons given in the post as to why weâre so angry. the idea that the post has a âslanted viewpointâ first of all is typical of the believerâs argument. non-believerâs beliefs about religion are slanted but the christianâs belief is simply factual⊠right? did I get that? and of course thereâs the infamous, âif christians acted like christiansâ argument. well, brad they donât, at least in the view you have of christians. on the other hand, if you see christians as I see them then yes they do act like christians⊠no behavior is below them. what Iâm saying is that weâre not buying the, how did Michael Jackson put it?… âone bad apple donât spoil the whole bunch girlâ defense. I watched the âdeliver us from evilâ documentary and the statistic at the end of the movie (and that was back then) was that there were some 8000 lawsuits brought against catholic priests in California alone. if, after the sex scandal in the catholic church, you remain a catholic, then there are only two possible explanations⊠you are simply evil or stupid, and brad, I think that the latter makes one the former. letâs see, there are some things in the post that âwe donât see eye to eye onâ. so, of all the crime, unethical, immoral etc. etc. things mentioned in the post, youâre gonna stake your claim on the submission of women⊠hell, I actually know catholic women who wonât make that argument. Iâm heartened for sure that you donât need the pope. a richer and more evil lineage of humans have never been listed than the catholic popes down through the ages⊠moving right along. oh this is my favorite âunslantedâ partâŠ
âMy challenge to every atheist I meet, is to ask them to read the bible and pray to the God (even if they don’t think he exists). Do this for a few minutes for 3-7 days. If they don’t feel a change in themselves, the longing for more, the need to understand what they are feeling than they can go along with their lives.â
my challenge to you is how about we drop you in the middle of the Yukon territory with a jackknife and your bible and see how long you last. if you make it back to civilization that would surely prove we are wrong and if you donât, well, the lord works in mysterious ways. and if we donât have the longing for more, we can go along with our lives! wow, thatâs rich⊠beautifully rich. ok, then he ends up with the âone bad appleâ defense again.
Iâve been pretty serene lately and not angry at all, (Iâll give byron Katie some credit) but brad, youâve done you job quite successfully and I think I feel my blood pressure rising.
Thank you. This was excellent to read. It certainly sparked a flame in my heart. I feel driven to do something, and only wish I had more money or influence. I strive to one day be a Physicist, and perhaps someday I will become some sort of figure like Sagan or Kaku. I hope i’ll be able to change something, to get my voice out there.
I used to want to be a filmmaker. Since then i’ve turned to a life of science. I hope to someday combine the two and strengthen the voice of the Atheist viewpoint.
well at least you live in US, you can put something like that in your weblog and not worry about the radicals supported by the government hunt you down..I lived almost all my life in Iran my friend..imagine how f. up was my life!
Amen sister! Thanks for expressing my thoughts exactly as I would have said them myself.
“As an atheist, I find myself wanting to kill every religious I see every time I think of the sheer misery caused by religion.”
– What a great message. Is this the response you were going for?
Catholic church has obviously been around for years and with all its members of course there will be those who do wrong. It is the 1st time I come across this website and I already found someone who wants to kill all religious people. Now take a second to imagine how many more atheist would have this same view if you had the same numbers as the catholics. Science has been wrong many times. Even when supported by study after study. Science has been wrong many times. Even when supported by study after study. Tylenol was recently been recalled after years of use. Now, our scientist know that its bad for us. Hundreds of years ago science “knew” the world was flat.. Then we discovered it was quite the opposite. Everyone said drink alot of water, then we learned that we were drinking way to much water. Science seems to be able to explain it self, atleast until another scientist proves them wrong. This has been going on since the beginning of science. One proving another wrong even when it comes to evolution. Talk about that scientist that had claimed to find the missing link, the one that connected us to some other primate that proved evolution. Turns out that he lied about it for the fame. That seems to always be the case. What can you expect? We are human and flawed. Seems like everything that is argued against our beliefs as catholics are based on what some scientist discovered. In a few years someone else will discover that he was wrong. Face it, we dont know what were doing. If you think catholics are lost, guess what, atheist are in no better shape. We are all in the same boat. I dont hate you or anyone else for that matter. Im bothered that you have so much built up hate and hope you over come it. That is no way to live. Im not gonna say that ill pray for you, im sure thatll upset you even more, but you know. I got your back no matter what. Like I said, were all in this together. Oh, and when we sit to pray before a big game, were not asking for a “W”, we actually keep it quite short, “Keep us safe.” Wish you well friend.
Wow, just wow… absolute pure genius, and 100% true, all of it, each and every bit of your post. Couldn’t disagree with any of it.
I’m constantly upset over many of these same issues, but I could never summarize my frustration as succinctly and as clearly as you have.
I hope you can hear my loud clapping of approval from far away. Brava!!!!!
Thanks for writing this! I’m angry too!
I don’t quite know the most effective way to improve things. Living openly and engaging people when possible—that’s something. And promoting those eloquent spokespersons (Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.) who might be able to reach many people through the media.
So, Slack1019, it is wrong for atheists to “dare to assume that god doesnt exist based on her singular life experience” when it it ok for you to believe in god based on some half-felt warm fuzzings and the fact that you have imagined that you have “felt” god in your life?
Talk about hipocrisy. Geez.
I know that atheism takes a leap of faith. I know that we are all equal.
From what i see you are as presumptuous about god as you say we are. How about you think about these questions and try to answer them. After all, Jesus wanted you to be ready to defend your faith.
1. did you know that most of christianity is stolen or copied from other religions? The entire jesus story, the virgin births, three-day ressurection, is identical to Ra’s. Crucifiction was used long before christianity came around. Christmas is a pagan holiday. How can a stolen religion be true?
2. Has every single pray that you have made to god come true? Have you ever prayed for all cancer to go away? For world piece? For all atheists to “see the light”? Well, according to Jesus, it SHOULD have come true. he said, “ask, and you will get” and “with faith, you can move mountains.” Jesus must have lied. But no, he cant lie, he is the saviour. Or is he?
3. there is no evidence of the Great Flood of the bible ever happening. Evolution has mountains of proof going for it, while Creationism has…. the bible? These occurences appear to be lies, so, can we trust the rest of the bible?
Also, look here plz:
http://atheismblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/100-reasons-to-believe-that-god-does.html
i dont know if it will work, but if it does, i implore all theists to read it. I have read the bible and regularly visit sites that try to convince me to be theist. Should you guys do the same here?
Wow! Just came upon your blog by chance. Great stuff! I couldn’t agree more.
Greta: The first thing I want to say is that while I was reading your truly awesome post (and I don’t mean that in valley-girl speak), one of the first things I did was look up how candy canes actually originated. Lol! I always enjoy reading your blog, but I don’t recall commenting until now.
I also want to say thank you for writing this. Much of my anger came after I realized that I was an atheist, and you have masterfully articulated that anger in this post. I’m glad you decided to blow your top, so to speak – and as eloquently as you have.
Your point about the “not the true faith” argument particularly resonates with me. I cannot tell you how many times I come across this. I think it is one of the most infuriating statements a person can make to me right now. Sam Harris has a lot to say about those people in the middle of the religious spectrum, and about how they are just as much to blame for all the things you mentioned in your post that infuriate us. Of course, it is the people in this demographic who most often use this line of flawed reasoning.
Thank you Greta, again. And, I’ll be sharing this.
Yeah! That is an awesome post, it sums up so much of my anger at religion and religious people. Personally one of the things I hate the most is acceptance of moderate religion because can largely be ignored unlike the fundamentalists. I’ve spent so many years listening to crap from moderates that just don’t get it, religion isn’t going away until it is challenged and shown to be superstitious nonsense that has no place in defining morals or laws.
Thanks
Whole article and comments persuades me that ATHEISM IS FAITH, that have own DOCTRINE, own saints and MARTYRS, own religious rights, own COMMUNITY, own faith that you must battle for, and many atheist expect that no-religion or no-faith can SAVE lifes of people and also whole world!!!!!
😉
Or you only want to criticise us for evil,that we make or made, and this is great servis for us!
Thank you!!!
(P.S.: In my 1-st sentence i was inspired by also by some comments: Right on, sister…My new mission in life is to memorize this post, …However, that anger, that desire to grab a non-existent God by the throat and kill himjust to show his followers how worthless and weak their god really is — doesn’t go away.DEATH TO ALL RELIGIONS!! …)
Yeah, but what are you actually angry about??
I am angry too.
Very nicely done!
And still they (BlackSun and others)go on with-I’m paraphrasing here -‘you dont get it, and you shouldn’t attack what you dont understand.’
Why fucking not? Just because the faithful “think” they get it, or “feel” they get it, doesn’t mean their religion is true. Feelings are chemicals in your brain, attached to triggers from outside your brain. Doesnt mean they are some sacred objective truth. (Newsflash, other people can think and feel too, and they don’t always find the same truth.)
And people who think religion-all of it-is all a big steaming pile would be perfectly fine if all this “god/faith/religion=truth” stuff wasn’t trying to foist itself in the legal and educational domain. This is, to a reasonable nonbelieving person, a bit like having their children, their future and our planet raped before their very eyes. It makes us so fucking sad. And angry. And depressed. I fervently wish for religion to de-evolve out of the human psyche, but unfortunately I think nuclear winter will happen first. And when it does, I will congratulate all believers for supporting each other in bringing about the end of everything good. And when they dont see Jesus after the dust has settled and radiation has killed many more and deformed the rest, I hope they finally realize the full fatality of this indulgent and catastrophic claim to certainty. Thank you, that’s all, and have a nice stay here on Earth. (It’s round, and it goes around the sun. Didn’t God mention that? No? What a shame. Maybe he’s a moron that never left the desert.)
Have a blessed day Greta God loves you!
A friend forwarded this link shortly after I’d finished listening to the most recent Point Of Inquiry. I haven’t listened often since D.J. left, but this one had PZ Myers and Chris Mooney facing off re: New Atheists vs. Accomodationists. PZ destroyed both Chris and the pseudo neutral host that joined in to “come now, can’t we get along?” when Chris was on the ropes and needed to tag out. PZ was as usual on top of his game and in that even toned patient yet pointed way he has, mopped the floor with ’em! Well worth the listen and a good partner to this most fantastic post.
This is my first time to your blog, but it definitely will not be my last! Kudos to you for your incredibly insightful, thorough and passionate post!
Wow, it’s too bad there isn’t anybody you can pray to about that anger problem. Maybe go back to the books of Matt, Mark, Luke and John and see what angered Jesus (actually Yeshua, but I don’t think he’d be too mad if you called him Jesus). You may notice you actually have some things in common. He didn’t seem to get along with the same types of people you mention.
Quite simply excellent. This is a must read article.
If I could add just two other justified reasons to be angry (and there are many many more reasons as Greta states in her article) they would be
1. the inane comments by some people who either didn’t read the article or missed the whole point of it, and
2. the logical fallacies that are used to keep people in ignorance, one of the most common today being “you can’t prove there is no God”, as if it were an equal 50:50 chance when all the time their God is a god of ever smaller and smaller gaps, that are increasingly irrelevant and damaging to good moral judgment.
Greta, I wish you the strength of anger and of wisdom, that you may continue to say it like it is. It’s what our humanity is crying out for.
I also hope that you’ll soon be able to marry Ingrid. What your hearts have joined together let no god-myths put asunder.
Thanks! Great Post everything you said connect with my anger towards religion
Im an agnostic more than an athiest but Ive got to say YES! Im angry about all those things too and its a damned fine thing someone finally said them!
Thank you -absolutely perfect. Count me as a fan.
“You may not be able to change the world, but at least you can embarrass the guilty!”
Jessica Mitford
Queen of the Muckrakers
I’m a Christian and even I don’t disagree with most of your points. It’s just a shame many Of Us get painted with the same brush because religious “leaders” have the loudest voice. I only get angry when my beliefs get condescendingly ridiculed when I give an atheist the same amount of respect I would anyone else. Please don’t scrutinize my post but I just wanted to comment. I enjoy reading your stuff as well.
Amen, Greta! (I’m kidding, I’m kidding!!)
Nice work, Greta.
I’ve expressed these very same ideas a thousand times over in various debate forums, but never sat down and compiled them all.
I’ve been an atheist for quite sometime now, with occasional backsliding incident. The most recent was when I was reaching the lowest point in my depression/anxiety hole back in 2006-08. In the end, I was my own savior. I turned the darkness into light. I took control over my own mind and emotions. I’ve been dogma free now for two years.
Greta,
This is a very, VERY good article. These are the same problems I find myself having with (conservative) religion. I am proud of you for having the courage to write about it and be so honest.
Donna
Can I suggest an addition? I’m angry that religion says that one’s faith is more important than one’s actions. The logical Christian conclusion to this argument is that Hitler (if he repented at the right moment) might now be in heaven but Anne Frank is now in hell. Lovely way to look at the world, isn’t it?
To those who think otherwise, atheism is not a choice. I can’t force myself to believe in the Easter Bunny simply by choosing to believe in a magical rabbit anymore than I can force myself to believe in a supreme being. In many ways it would be easier if that was the case.
Thank you for your post.
Great impassioned argument.
The kind that’s long overdue.
Thank you for posting this. You really put it out there so succinctly. I appreciate you for compiling so many wise and true statements from we the “angry atheists”.
You are a bright light here on our earth.
I’m so glad you posted this. Thank you so much.
I saw that you linked to Hitchens’ book. It was great, but the documentary Collision, with Hitchens talking to a pastor friend, blew my mind. It took me from “meh..I’m agnostic..or whatever..I guess” to stone cold atheist for all the right reasons and I feel so free.
As you wrote in one of your supporting posts, I never post the attagirl posts. But, since you said you appreciated them, I will. My brother is an atheist and has struggled, living in a rather fundamentalist place of the country, with the things people say to him as the parent of a terminally ill child. “Pray more” being the one that sticks in my mind. Through your post, I have gained a greater understanding of why he is so very frustrated with their misguided and hurtful messages parading as religious kindness. Thank you.
“Analysis of why anger is necessary and valuable is coming up soon.”
This is a new gloss on the meaning of “soon” with which I’m unfamiliar.
Interesting reading, in any case.
Yes. Exactly. What you said!
Don’t know how this will be received here.
I’m a Christian, and angry about many of the same things you are.
I’m also a teacher of religion, and find my job enormously complicated by atheist anger when it is not willing to distinguish between varieties of Christianity, between varieties of religion, and is not willing to own varieties of atheism. I would like to be able to create dialogue between Christians and atheists, but I don’t know if we can stop projecting things on each other long enough to listen to each other.
My husband is somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist– confessionally, I suppose, he’s an agnostic, but in his heart of hearts he’s convinced that if there was a God, there’d be empirical evidence. We do manage to get along, and even argue about religion sometimes, but try to understand and respond to each other’s views.
Can you be angry and still listen? Can we be angry and still listen?
I wondered what that blurry feeling of ickiness was. Now I see it is anger.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Clarifying, as always.
I am so thankful that you wrote this. I have tried to explain to several of my friends why anger is a legitimate, useful, motivating emotionâas opposed to guilt, which tends to cripple people and make them do nothing.
As an atheist I have never been ashamed of, nor bothered to hide by anger toward the mass insanity that is called “religion”. I don’t have to accept that crazy stuff and I’ll be damned if I’m going to be calm about protecting myself from it.
Excellent piece. Well done.
It is quite maddening that people who do not “believe in” a supernatural being know more about religion than church goers in general (recent Pew survey) and that they are (in my experience) more tolerant, more forgiving, and better citizens than church goers, who claim to have cornered the market on morality and love of their fellow man.
I find that while atheists hate many things that are done in the name of religion, church goers are more likely to hate other people, even other church goers whose beliefs are so slightly different they are barely distinguishable.
I believe this hatred is why most Americans who do not believe in a supernatural being do not admit to that in public. Although statistics indicate there are very few American atheists, it is my considered opinion that there are large numbers of atheists. They simply do not want to damage public reputations or ruin family relationships. It is terribly sad that our society seems to be unable to accept non-believers. Actually, it’s tragic. What could be more American?
I’m an angry man. I’m happily married, moderately successful in my chosen line of work, and have three sons around which my life revolves.
But I’m angry. I’m frustrated.
And I really feel like you have nailed one of the driving forces behind my constant state of agitation.
I cannot stand how fiction can be used to judge me, and that my facts need not apply in matters of “faith”. And this making me angry apparently indicates *I* am the problem.
Now… what can I DO with this anger, that’s actually constructive?
Thank you. Oddly I was just writing about my central argument with the Sunday Funhouse Gang.
That they are the millstone around mankind’s neck in the slow march toward enlightenment and a sane world.
I agree that people have done lots of stupid stuff in the name of religion through the ages. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the religion itself is the problem. Just like e.g. sexual instincts, drugs, driving a car etc. This is all good in itself, but it can certainly be abused. But we don’t stop driving cars because there are accidents. We don’t eradicate all drugs because some people abuse them, and we keep encouraging our sexual instincts, despite the fact that some of us abuses those instincts, and keeps raping and molesting etc. To round it up, we are doing these things because they are necessary, even though a great risk follows with these things. And if religion by any chance, not all happens to be only nonsense made up by a bunch of dupe people (desperately trying to find the meaning the life) nor is some kind of conspiracy, then religion is actually VERY necessary. If all religion was proved to be a lie, then I agree that most of the necessity of religion would vanish.
That is one thing that troubles me a little with atheists, that they (I do not know if you do..) claim to KNOW that there is no God, and the world just begot naturally. Such a claim requires unlimited knowledge. (I bet you heard that one before)
I admit that I don’t know that there is a God, but I find it much more likely that there is a God, than not. (I am a christian for the record) Atheists has consequently failed to convince me and my human logics, that a non-God solution is probable..
I believe that content of christianity is right at many things, but is messed up, and atheists can rightfully be angry with loads and loads of stuff done by people in the name of christianity throughout history. But I find it highly probable that there is a God.
About anger. It is true that anger has led to many important victories throughout history. But as you also point out, anger is a dangerous tool, and I think we easily could have made a MUCH longer list than this one with catastrophies and stuff done by people blinded by anger throughout history.
As you point out, it is not the anger in itself that is the problem, but people using it wrong. It is exactly the same way about religion.
And one thing worth noticing about anger: in a debate, is an angry person more or less convincable than a person which is not angry? And: is an angry person which is extremely hard to convince in a debate more or less impartial and objective?
my conclusion is then: when you know something for sure, then you can go ahead raging your case ahead. Because when you really are sure, it is not harmful to the truth to sometimes leave objectivity behind.
Just as the womens suffrage movement, gay movement etc. They all knew they were treated unfairly, and they were right! (for the record: I do as a christian not condemn homosexuals, that is one of the things I believe the general christianity is mistaken in)
Mail me on [email protected] if you want to share your reactions on this. (just keep the text a little shorter than this blogpost! 😉
WOW! KICK ASS!!! The only word that pops to mind is.. AMEN, SISTER!!! I’m nodding enthusiastically, with most of it… Thanks for just saying it so succinctly and with such unabashed passion.
I’ve been directed to your blog before. This is a great read and very well thought-out. Thank you for articulating this so well!! As time passes, I’m getting more angry, too!
Wow, with all this anger and negativity and misinformation I think the author must hat atheists too!
Great stuff! I’d add that I’m angry at the fundamental dishonesty of people who will not admit that all religion is entirely imaginary!
faith= wishfull imagination.
Rick
I’m angry that religion belittles the achievements of humanity by attributing such success to God, with little or no acknowledgement of the greatness of humanity and the individuals whose blood and sweat went into those achievements.
wow it seems that you are angry with people and their beliefs. As I have studied theology I have come to realize that every religion and even atheist all have their views and thoughts about how life should be lived. You spend so much time with anger and harsh words and thoughts that you miss out on the miracles and blessings that people experience because of their faith. You can have your own opinion but maybe you should try being sympathetic and instead of belittling every inch of this. There will always be people out there that do wrong in the name of some God and there are others that do wrong to prove there is no God. Itâs a shame you spend so much energy hating and being angry.
Thank you for condensing this to a manageable read. A hundred generations and more of malign magical thinking is worth getting angry about. I will be sending many people this way.
You don’t have to post this. I just wanted to say that you’re awesome and that I think I might be an atheist after reading it. For years I have struggled to find out what’s wrong with me because I have no faith and nothing really resonates with me except for hanging out with radical faeries and absorbing their beautiful spiritual energy, which, consequently, may have nothing to do with the Goddess and more to do with just getting together and being awesome. I have used some of your material in my classes for years but had no idea how INCREDIBLE you are. Thank you for your honesty and bravery. Keep up the good fight. Anger is a catalyst and a tool and it’s totally necessary.
Socrates once said: The only true wisdom is the understanding that we don’t know anything. I find it laughable that the Atheist and Religious communities alike claim to have it all figured out. Nobody knows… period. Which makes me wonder what all the bickering is about. For an atheist to claim that religion is responsible for so many of the Earth’s ills is pathetic. It’s called human nature. There are bad people and there are good people. There are good ideas, bad ideas and conflicting ideas. It’s as simple as that. But it is just ridiculous to assume that the world would be a perfect place without religion. People, by nature, would find a way to create conflict and acrimony. Religion is just a convenient target for some people to place blame on our planets problems, just like some people of religion use their beliefs in order to justify their horrible actions. But once again, nobody knows the truth, and for anyone to claim otherwise really puts their own arrogance on display. Both sides of the debate need some serious perspective. What a stupid thing for people to be angry about. (Both sides). Live your life and do what’s right. Ultimately, that is the only thing that will ever make a positive difference. Anger may be a great motivator, but it is definitely not a healthy state of mind. I am so sick of this debate. It is so stupid since neither side knows what the actual truth is. It just makes me laugh.
That being said, I truly feel for how religion has affected you in a negative matter, and understand your anger. Focus on the good in life, and simply do what you can to create change in a positive manner. That is all we can do. The one thing I have learned in life, however, is that negativity and anger breed negativity and anger. Positivity is the most powerful way to create change for the better. I wish you luck.
About the “ATHEIST in the Foxhole”
This is a letter my WWII and Korean Marine Captain wrote to his mother on Jan 24, 1944
The lecture you sent I found interesting, though Iâm no more religious then ever. That saying about the âatheist in Foxholesâ doesnât seem to hold for us. I admit in a real pickle it may be true- but thatâs just when it might help and thereâs nothing else you can do. If somebody told me it would help to take off my left shoe and cross my toes Iâd do that too. In fact it often seems like He isnât around at all when you see some of the guys he takes and some of those he leaves behind.
Religion is such BOLLOCKS!!!! I really can’t believe thatintelligent people can’t see through it.
Great piece!!
and seeing the two as somehow equivalent? Or worse, seeing the snarky atheists as the greater problem?
As hard as it might be to believe, athiests (through communism) have killed more than all religious conflicts combind. And, shockingly, the number isn’t even close.
So, as a Russian, I am more angry at communism (and, by extention, the militant atheism that it has spawned) then you are at religion. For while religion might have hurt you personally, militant atheism has killed families that I have known, friends I have loved, and has nearly killed the country that is my own.
You are an angry person, seems about everything. Things are somtimes out of your control. Get over it and start living. No one wants to be with someone so miserable. I hope you find peace when you are gone, moreoever, I hope you find peace now. Forgive yourself, forgive others, that is something you can control. Find something to be happy about instead of spreading your anger like high octane fuel on an already angry fire. Don’t bash me because of my faith, I don’t bash you because of your lack of faith. I will not turn the other cheek. I will stand up for my beliefs as you are yours. Atheists have to first believe in GOD to not believe in it, Oxymoron is term I am looking for. If you don’t believe in God, why get angry at all?
Please please PLEASE write the book!!!
*standing applause*
I get tired of you whining about why you’re angry Gretta. Good thing there’s nothing more I can do about it than you can others of an organized religion. Btw I’m agnostic but realize the majority in this country disagree with me so I suggest you learn to do the same or just continue whining about it because you’re not making any positive impact with your negative rant.
VERY NICE! Excellent! Thank you for sharing these powerful incites into our Atheist anger!
Sincerely,
RJ Evans
American Heathen®
ShockNetRadio.com
Ryan: That fact that nobody knows absolutely, and indeed it’s likely that nobody ever will no absolutely, is no reason to give up trying to learn.
What we can do is work toward being less wrong. And most religions make factual statements that are severely wrong. The stars are not suspended by a giant metal bowl (“firmament”) and a world-wide flood never happened (at least not in the last billion years).
Our current knowledge may be imperfect, but it’s vastly closer to perfect than at any time in history. As Asimov wrote:
“We’ll never know for sure, so just give up” falls into that third category.
First off, I must say that I adore Blankets and Craig Thompson. Love it when I find someone who has read that graphic novel. Have you read, Goodbye Chunky Rice?? Fantastic.
I attempted to comment on this earlier today (I was directed to your blog by an atheist friend who shared it on Facebook).I hope I can remember my thoughts from this morning.
I greatly enjoyed your post. I am a Christian; however, I do question my beliefs and I am fascinated by the varying worldviews that surround me.
I am angry that as a teen, I witnessed a man grab his young daughter by the neck and slam her head into a brick wall. IN THE MIDDLE OF MY CHURCH. You see the point I am making here: Christian does not equal moral.
I am angry when Christians try to impose their beliefs on atheists, as if their beliefs are far superior (and honestly, vice versa). I believe we are entitled to our own thoughts, and disrespect is never okay with me. I also believe that challenging each other, debating our beliefs, and respectful discussion is a fantastic use of our knowledge and a learning tool I would never want to miss out on. This is why I loved this eloquent post.
@Susie Bright: No offense meant, but I must disagree with you. You state that Greta is far too angry, and that the believers you know are never this angry. This implies that God eliminates anger if you are a person of faith. I’m afraid I can point out many people of faith who have been extremely angry: Osama Bin Ladin, those involved in the Isreal/Palestine conflict, Christian Crusaders, and much less significanlty…my mother, my grandfather, my priest, and lastly, myself. Being a believer does not “save” you from anger. Atheist anger is NOT due to a lack of faith. By implying that all Atheists need to do is jump on the religious bandwagon in order to “be happy” and “stop being angry” you literally prove Greta’s well made points. I may believe in God, but I can’t possibly disagree with a single word she wrote.
Thank you for challenging my knowledge, bringing certain ideas to my attention, and educating me about a worldview outside of my own.
Edit: No idea why I thought it was Susie Bright who I was responding to. It was meant to be @Michelle. Major apologies for that mistake.
Impressive use of sanity to make solid points. Kudos.
My one complaint (apart from the fact that ANYTHING Mother Teresa did in India was itself a marked improvement over the erstwhile conditions) is that you complain about people using prayer as a divine to-do list, but then also complain about people who say that for them, religion and prayer aren’t about making demands to a higher power and expecting they be fulfilled. You can’t have it both ways. Either you can object to prayer as a petition, or you object to people who do not. But to get pissed at people who don’t treat prayers like letters to Santa, just because they quite openly point it out, is absurd. It seems to say, “Well, you caught me in a mistake, so now I’m angry!”
Makes me angry that they are always trying to end the world (true believers) Like it won’t end on its own. Angry that a god wouldn’t prefer that they just lived a simple loving day when it went pop rather than an apocalypse.
When I brought my homosexual friend home as a straight woman, I was a 19 year old girl at the time, my brother was a converted evangelical Christian with his Christian friend.
Once he found out he was gay, my brother jumped on me, and punched me over and over again until my nose bled.
That is what religion does for people. Think it altered my point of view about religion? You betcha.
Of course, years after, everyone telling me to forgive. Well, of course I forgave him, but it was disarming in that I never got an apology as a grown woman. I still speak to him. I still love him, but no apology.
He still has his beliefs. He teaches them to my nephews (his kids), that homosexuality is a sin, that women are to submit to them as its Jesus will, and that the rapture is coming and those who don’t believe will burn in everlasting fire.
This is what religion has done for his family and for mine? Well, I grew up and in my journey through life, I examined and dabbled in every stage of Christianity, spirituality and enlightenment and in the end… I am an atheist.
I love you. Thank you. I’m not an athiest, but I’m a spiritual person who has formed my own opinions based on the experiences I’ve collected through life, and I certainly can’t expect anyone else to share my opinions as they haven’t shared my exact experiences. I was very angered recently to learn that my younger brother who is being homeschooled recieves all of his texts/workbooks from a creationist institute. Seriously? Anyway, thank you, your anger made me laugh, even though I share your anger on all of these subjects. Your queer brother in solidarity, Cole.
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
I gave up on religion when I was four when I saw Belsen on the BBC TV in 1947. I knew what I was seeing. The nuns at my school had no idea.
I think somehow we have to re-educate the indoctrinated. I do my best.
YouTube Charles Darwin vs Adam & Eve
a year ago was my first effort and number two I think I may title ‘The Bible- Text book for life’ is as they say ‘coming soon’.
It seems to me that it is such a pity that the bible hasn’t been checked for accuracy first before the killing, discrimination of women and gays, is allowed to begin.
I am happy to say that I as a member of Homo Sapiens I am not related to the biblical Adam & Eve in anyway. Not a drop of their DNA runs in my blood. I am NOT GUILTY of that ‘SIN’.
I get angry that my freedom of speech is curtailed in a way that the religious would not tolerate.
My friends on Facebook like leaving religious messages that I frankly find offensive but if I dare to respond I know I should be de friended instantly.
I am of any age where non believers among my peers are virtually nil so I have to be tolerant. I am not a hermit.
At least today we can speak freely on the internet. I could never have believed that this would be possible even 15 years ago. Now I can reach a huge audience as you can.
The problem is here we are preaching to the converted. It is the uneducated masses we need to reach. The old media is in the clutches of organized religion at the moment but not for much longer.
It will all change given a generation or two and if non believers have to get a bit angry first we just have to do it.
Carry on the good work!
If this were a voting ballot I would have checked “Yes” straight down the line! It’s amazing and downright scary how one can observe the murky cloud of denial mist into the eyes of a believer when questioned of their “True Faith” in contrast to the millions who’ve lived and died in pure ignorance of their brand of “Truth.” And asked, of the thousands, which is “True?” Then leave them to ponder the great late Carl Sagan’s “Pale Blue Dot” and move on. Life is too short to waste attempting to heal the delusional.
Excellent blog. Will stay tuned in.
Atheism is a reaction; why would I want to “believe” in “something” that is a bitter reaction to something else. Whether atheists want to admit it or not, they believe in something… even if it in absence, or just themselves and relativism. No wonder everyone seems angry, even “Christians”; because we’re all selfish humans bent on pleasing ourselves.
A Catholic here.
If you were an irreligous person, you would not be as angry as you are about the misuse of religion.
Anonymous Christian.
Vale bene.
Blessings.
Having come to this from Edward Tarte’s video, I was somewhat surprised by the blunt language in the opening statements. But I must say it was refreshing. I also agree with you point by point. Or, to put it simply: Spot on, and eloquently put. Thank you!
Thank you Greta.
Wow. That is all. x
None of this means that there is no God. I get angry when atheists offer so many good premises for a convincing argument against religion, then instead of drawing a conclusion about religion or religious people (e.g. religious people are misguided or religion is to blame for a variety of evils) they make the leap of logic to conclude that they are justified in being atheist. They might feel that they are on moral high ground as atheists in light of all that convincing evidence; still they do not prove that enere is no God.
@Glenn
‘Burden of proof’
Look it up!
Glenn: Greta starts her essay having established that there are no gods. Among the points that religious people are misguided about is this fact.
If that were the only point of contention, it would be pretty harmless, but theologians have developed all sorts of ridiculous corollaries (e.g. “Kill them all; the Lord knows who are his”), which are quite substantial problems.
Unfortunately, it’s easy to demonstrate that if you begin with contradictory premises, any conclusion can be reached with impeccable logic.
Greta isn’t trying to justify atheism in her essay; that’s assumed. (Feel free to read some of her many other blog posts on that subject.) She’s justifying atheist anger.
Thanks so much.
Let me ramble a bit.
When I was 15 I was stricken with an acute nephritis and nearly died. I was in the i.c.u. for two weeks,the hospital for two months and bed ridden for six nonths. As I was getting better My religious parents and friends(Mormons)kept saying what a miricle it was that I was still alive. Blah blah blah. They sort of shot themselves in the foot as this sounded wierd to me even at that age. I started thinking “What about the doctors, the hospital,etc.etc. without them I would have DIED. I never mentioned this to them for fear of scorn.
Just the other day a news story about an infant that is still alive dispite his many problems showed the parents saying what a miricle it was that he survived and that he was ment to be here. I never heard them on this news item on t.v. thank the doctors, the hospital staff, the medical technology, etc. that actually saved the child.
It really does make you fucking angry.
At times when I have a discussion with anyone, believers or nonbelievers, I start out by stating the I believe that religion is the most destructive aspect of human nature there is.
I recently returned from a conference in L.A. hosted by Free Inquiry (CFI). It was so refreshing to be amongst people with a brain. The topic at some of the plenery sessions was a debate about whether Atheists should be accommodationists or confrontationists toward the religious. I think the confrontationists were the most popular and had the best arguments. As I believe it was Sam Harris at the conference who said (If I remember correctly), some things are wrong and if they are wrong they are also bad.
These things(religious garbage) need to be criticized and even derided.
It was a great conference with people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Victor Stenger, James Randy, Chris Mooney, P.J. Meyers(sp?),Paul Kurtz, Tom Flyn, and many more. Hearing these people speak and talking with like minded conference attendees was invigorating. I helps me renew my will to fight the fight against faith.
Thank you. I would love to share this with all my christian extended family (on both sides), but fear the kind of response you have responded to in the linked post (ie, the one where you responded to the responses – does that make sense?). Keep up the good blogging.
Greta, I’ve just come to your blog (linked from Reddit) with this post, but am subscribing to the RSS now. Great rant. I’ve been angry about some of these things for a while and some other ones I didn’t even know happened, but am now angry about them. Fantastic post. I’m also angry you and your partner can’t get married when and where you want.
I’m also angry that the legal basis for advantaging married partners is steeped in religious dogma about the sanctity of marriage. If I had my way, the law would treat all adults as individuals regardless of their specific coupling preferences.
You are my hero. Your blog has given me the courage to stand up for that which you have mentioned in your blog, plus several other topics.
As an atheist, I really don’t care what others believe. But as your blog has so clearly pointed out, those beliefs (however ridiculous they may be) are being forced upon us by the Christian majority. I hope you and others like you (including myself, as I reside in the “bible belt” south) have your voices heard.
No longer should we sit by and allow the so-called “Jesus freaks” to control not only public policy, but also the policies of our troops both home and abroad. Our war is a spiritual one, in that we are not spiritual but those in power (including law makers) are. Separation of church/synagogue/mosque and state is vital to the survival of not only the United States, but the world as a whole. Keep your beliefs to yourself, I say. I shall never abide by a law based on faith or any holy text, and I invite my fellow atheists to join me.
Whats the difference of a dying atheists and a dying Christian?
atheists tend to become very depressed when death comes near to them;
Christians die with a peaceful mind knowing that there is life after death.
Babbage understood that God’s power is infinite and that even through man’s best efforts, we will never fully comprehend God’s perfection.
In his Treatise Babbage discusses the authenticity and validity of the Scriptures in detail. He also used statistical references to support the miracles recorded in the Bible. To Babbage, a miracle is something that has an extremely small chance of occurring; something very rare indeed. The Bible documents many such miracles. Babbage used the age of the Earth (6,000 years), the average number of years between generations (30) and estimated population figures to calculate how many people had lived through time. Over all this time only 1 person (Jesus) was crucified, died, buried and rose from the dead. Statistically Babbage showed that the odds of this happening would be about 1 in 100,000,000,000. Using this estimate and the documented, written Word, Babbage told non-believing scientists that they would have to be able to formally document a larger probability that Christ’s resurrection did not happen. Scientists have been unable to do so. Although non-believing scientists can simply choose not to accept the Bible, they are unable to produce any evidence that Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection did not occur, leaving them without a basis to scientifically deny that it happened. Babbage stated, “miracles are not the breach of established laws (meaning man-made laws) but indicate the existence of far higher laws (meaning God’s laws).”
“I get angry when religious believers make arguments against atheism — and make accusations against atheists — without having bothered to talk to any atheists or read any atheist writing. ”
And likewise, I’m angry that your narrow view of religion (Christianity in particular) pushes away progressive believers from entering into dialogue with atheists. In this post you’re just the Jerry Falwell of Atheism – you speak for a small, hardened, ignorant group of angry people whose hatred for others discredits the good contributions atheists make to a pluralist society! (Case in point: you’re still angry about Galileo? I’m a Mennonite, and it has taken the Lutheran Church over 500 years to apologize for our persecution – tongues being ripped out, public drownings, public burnings, etc. Why? Because we refused to baptize our infants!!! But you know what, we – as a collective church – let that go a long time ago and began dialogue with our Protestant friends, because it’s not worth growing militant about.)
This article was pathetic to read and insults the good relationships between Believers (of any faith) and Atheists in the 21st Century North American context. I regret stumbling upon this.
Thank you so much for taking time and effort in writing this. I can relate to all the issues you mentioned.
That was simply awesome.
Agreed 100% w this piece. The ONLY thing I would add is that little girls are not the only ones being taught to hate their body and sexuality. Thousands of boys are forcibly circumcised every day in the name of religious doctrine (and in the name of its indirect product- social stigma) as well.
Otherwise a fabulous piece.
You are my hero. ‘Nuff said.
This is a fantastic post! I got sent here from Reddit, and I’m definitely going to be following your blog from now on.
As a fellow atheist, much of the material in the list of things you’re angry about was familiar to me, but what really made me stop and think was the justification for why anger is necessary for social change. I’ve definitely told people that their anger is hurting their cause before, but I think my motivation for that is related to your point that anger can be hard to focus productively and can go wrong, rather than saying that all anger is bad by default.
Regardless, you’ve definitely given me a lot to think about, so thanks!
Red Tory: Other than some prickliness, could you explain how Greta’s writing “pushes away progressive believers from entering into dialogue with atheists”? I just don’t see it.
Every time I read it, I’m actually surprised at the mildness. It contains an order of magnitude less bile than is dispensed daily from pulpits and minbars around the world.
In this article, she’s being very specific about what she’s angry about. If those points don’t apply to you (although I have to admit, the last point on her list obviously does!), what’s the threat? I’m not worried that you’re going to blame me for the persecutions you describe.
I mean, I utterly despise a laundry list of actions by the U.S. government, but that doesn’t imply hostility to all individual americans; we can still talk about politics.
(As for Galileo, he was truthfully a real prick and did a lot of unnecessary taunting of his intellectual opponents. I’m far more upset about Giordano Bruno, who actually was executed for heresy, for suggesting that there were probably other planets with life on them.)
I’d just like to add to your mention of 9/11. Personally, I’m also angry that, in its wake, the “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them all to Christianity” crowd won the day. Because there’s apparently no better way to combat fundamentalism than … with more fundamentalism.
Fucking brilliant.
Top notch, I read the whole thing and in this day and age that tells you something. Well said, well conveyed.
Mark Lenard Mirandilla: The relevance of your point is kind of dubious. Charles Babbage’s ninth Bridgewater Treatise that you quote from (it’s a response to 8 treatises by the Earl of Bridgewater), does indeed do that computation, but if you start by assuming a 6000 year old earth and a resurrection, to prove the validity of the Bible, I don’t need to examine the rest of the logic for flaws; it’s as circular as Ouroboros.
Suppose we pass over age of the earth issues and I accept Jesus’s resurrection. There’s still the question of its uniqueness.
After all, Asclepius was resurrected to become a god too. Romulus reputedly disappeared from his tomb, appeared to Proculus, and ascended into heaven.
Bodhidharma took three years rather than three days to come back from the dead, but it’s a similar story.
Do you have any idea how common a story that is in mythology?
I wish I had time to read all of this every day to remind me of why I fight so hard about Atheism.
Dear Eddie A. Stanfield,
Get your head out of your ass.
Love,
Ryan
Thank you for you post, I would not normally thank someone, but you said it was O.K. 🙂 Sometimes people ask me “Why are you so angry.” And I wonder, “Why are you not angry?” Do you not pay attention to what is happening? My anger covers your anger and then extends on, to torture as national policy, bailing out banks that are “to big to fail” and then not breaking up the banks, and on and on. So, I have all the anger you have and then even more. We do have to find a way to balance the anger I think, personally I’ve been using pictures of Kittens. Thanks again!
I respect, support and share your rage.
“Build a man a fire and you keep him warm for a night. Set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.”
Great read. Agreed with all your points, and helped me validate my own anger with religion. Thank you.
I don’t think I’ve ever read such a well-written summary of what it means to be an atheist and why we feel the way we feel. Thank you.
Fucking beautifully said and written. Thank you for speaking up. And thank you for being who you are.
I appreciate your perspective, thank you, and I am sorry for my actions if they have ever hurt anyone, believer or not, and I hope that things work out for you as far as your marriage is concerned. I could be super philosophical about this, but I don’t think it’s really my place to be that way, because your mind is made up, and if you change, it won’t be because of something I say right now. So all I’m saying is thank you for your perspective, I hope more people open their hearts to people whom have their heart invested in other things.
Thank you for this post. It made me cry tears of anger. <3 to you.
you are a lesbo….ewwwww…
Great article; thank you for writing it.
I’m angry that atheist-led regimes in Russia, China, Nazi Germany, Yugoslavia, Viet Nam, North Korea, Cambodia, Zaire, Ethiopia, Eastern Europe, and elsewhere have deliberately and with malice aforethought mass murdered over 100,000,000 people since 1917 (and an additional 500,000 more in France in the 1790s).
I am angry that under an atheist-inspired United States Supreme Court abomination of a ruling–the moral equivalent of the Dred Scott decision–some 52,000,000 unborn babies have been torn to shreds in utero since 1973…. and 100,000,000 other unborn babies have been torn to shreds in other countries by similar decretals.
And I’m angry that whiny infidels make long lists about how tough they have it when so many of their victims are pushing up daisies or blowin’ in the wind.
No sympathy. And no apologies. Grow up.
Christians behave in a very evil and intrusive way. The Taliban is wimpy by comparison. I was taken to a lynching when I was 7. A bunch of GOOD Baptists were entertaining themselves, lustfully, shamefully, by torturing and burning a black man to death.
As Lord Buckley said, “There are a lot of good ways to be evil.”
(; love the comment about god as an imaginary friend. I think I need the bumper sticker. Dirka dirka alllllah!
Brilliant! Thank you for this peace! Sharp, straight, perfect and so true.
I am angry at the human race for the evil they bring to this world. I am angry that I am unable to destroy all signs of humans on this planet for the other animals protection and longevity. I would not hesitate a nano second if I had the ultimate power of life and death.
I’m kicking myself for not having read this before. What good stuff. Makes me flat out proud that I had anything to do w/ getting you to speak next April (2011) in Iowa. Thanks! –Ed Buckner, [email protected]
Obviously, my e-mail address is [email protected]
And obviously I can’t type wortha crap.
Great blog… I love this.
Dear Greta Christina,
Stupidity is and will always be part of the human race. If atheists find themselves getting so annoyed at stupidity that they themselves turn into a self-righteous, pesudo-intellecutal group (as with many “I’m cool because I’m an atheits” douches on the internet today), perhaps they are not as mentally strong as they give themselves credit for. The ability to look at the universe as an unbeliever is an intellectual luxury that only a handful have enjoyed throughout the course of human history. Atheists should focus on that and consider themselves lucky.
Nilan
Richard L. Kent, Esq.: Can you clarify that number? I know the 1932-33 famine is credited at about 4 mission deaths in the Ukraine and 3 million elsewhere in the Soviet Union (actually, the deaths in Russia proper were pretty limited, but I assume you’re being sloppy), and I don’t know of other pogroms of enough size to reach the total you quote.
The 1958-61 Chinese famine caused about 45 million deaths, but I fail to see the “deliberately and with malice aforethought” part of it. Unspeakably stupid economic policy, definitely. Ideological rigidity and unwillingness to admit error, indubitably. And heartless indifference to the consequences of their actions. But is there a shred of evidence that the planners of the “Great Leap Forward” wanted anyone to die? As far as I can tell, the true goals were exactly the stated ones. They just thought sufficient revolutionary fervour could override reality…
The way I’d put it is that the more virulent forms of revolutionary communism are themselves a religion (Mao and Kim Il-Sung were definitely deified), and see other religions as rivals. E.g. this poster.
As for the Nazis, I call shenanigans. Hitler was a vocal Catholic, and every german soldier had “Gott mit uns” (which is actually a protestant rallying cry, but anyway…) on his belt buckle.
Richard L. Kent, Esq.: Can you clarify that number? I know the 1932-33 famine is credited at about 4 mission deaths in the Ukraine and 3 million elsewhere in the Soviet Union (actually, the deaths in Russia proper were pretty limited, but I assume you’re being sloppy), and I don’t know of other pogroms of enough size to reach the total you quote.
The 1958-61 Chinese famine caused about 45 million deaths, but I fail to see the “deliberately and with malice aforethought” part of it. Unspeakably stupid economic policy, definitely. Ideological rigidity and unwillingness to admit error, indubitably. And heartless indifference to the consequences of their actions. But is there a shred of evidence that the planners of the “Great Leap Forward” wanted anyone to die? As far as I can tell, the true goals were exactly the stated ones. They just thought sufficient revolutionary fervour could override reality…
The way I’d put it is that the more virulent forms of revolutionary communism are themselves a religion (Mao and Kim Il-Sung were definitely deified), and see other religions as rivals. E.g. this poster.
As for the Nazis, I call shenanigans. Hitler was a vocal Catholic, and every german soldier had “Gott mit uns” (which is actually a protestant rallying cry, but anyway…) on his belt buckle.
I’m angry about so many of these things too, and I’m a Christian – which I know will make you angry.
why arent my comments appearing?
i spend all this time ranting at Richard and it doenst come up…. wtf?
Comment by Eric: “Nobody’s spending any time respecting my beliefs, so I fail to see why I should spend time respecting theirs.”
IMO this attitude is the reason why there is so much strife and is not restricted to Atheists. Christians of all denominations feel persecuted in this country because everyone but them is allowed to pray in school or have their beliefs recognized, thus they act out. Muslims don’t like it because they feel their culture is being attacked, thus they act out. The list goes on. This escalating cycle of disrespecting others’ beliefs (or non-belief) is going to be far more damaging to everyone than any one belief ever can be because it more than anything else promotes intolerance on a personal level. In short, because you feel wronged and that no one’s listening to you then it’s okay to go ahead and disrespect everyone else who disagrees with you.
While I understand the frustration in this article and I don’t disagree with venting those frustrations in a constructive manner, I wonder though if inciting others is good for anyone. It certainly hasn’t been for the religious psychos out there. What makes anyone thing it would work for any other group?
Cheers, Gary
Great. Post.
That was just brilliant, Greta!
Anger can be a slow poison – and it can be the greatest force for good. Frankly, anyone who sees these things and isn’t angry is either pathetically passive or unbelievably selfish.
It still angers me that someone who considered himself the one who loved me the most in the world, and who would be a suitable husband for me, kept wittering on about his personal relationship with God; how he prayed all the time for me to become a Christian; how he thought he could cure my pains with prayer; how almost all Christians except him were wrong about this, that and the other; how his family would thank God for their food but not the plants and animals, the farmers, the drivers, the factory workers who made it; how I would become a Christian “in God’s time, not in mine”; how he loved God more than he did me, and how God loved me more than he could love me (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean); how my physical desires and indeed my body were his to awaken and charge, to play with, but not to fulfill – rather to suppress, conceal, and be ashemd of – until we married; and how I ought to be “looking up” certain quotes in the Bible that supported violence, cruelty, slavery, racism, sexism, and genocide because I was “taking them out of context”.
I challenged him and said that in that case he supported genocide, and he told me that it was like some film about someone’s mother who turns into a vampire – apparently everyone killed in the Old Testament was killed for everyone else’s safety, and God loved them all.
Until I went out with him and met his friends and church group, I thought Dawkins was causing more trouble than it was really worth.
When I went along to a humanist website and started learning more about the horrendous abuses of, for example, sex education – as well as when I experienced the above – I can’t belive I ever thought such a cowardly thing.
If this idea that God loves us is so literal, why isn’t it also literal that it’s fine to beat your slave into 2 days of helplessness, or that it’s fine to kill all men and animals and keep all virgins for yourself in war?
What do we atheists want? I want a world with a bit more fairness and less lies. I want religion to be held in the place it wishes science to be held in: “oh, just one viewpoint, it’s up to you if you want to follow it”. I want science and education to be paramount. With science and education, so much progress can be made, and I don’t just mean in economics and the living standard, but also with people’s minds.
I’d better stop now. But thank you Greta. I hadn’t heard of your blog before a friend tweeted this post today. And I’m sorry you and Ingrid can’t get married – I do hope that things can change!
Just as relevant today, in fact the accusations of ‘strident neo-atheism’ are if anything becoming more frequent.
What an EXCELLENT blog.
Just tweeted it on Twitter, some similar feedback from other atheists.
Gary/Silashand: “Christians of all denominations feel persecuted in this country because everyone but them is allowed to pray in school or have their beliefs recognized”
WTF??? I don’t deny that some Christians, in a jaw-dropping display of projection and hypocriticism, manage to convince themselves that they are persecuted.
What I don’t understand is how there is a shred of actual persecution, much less the examples you cite. Christians are allowed to pray in school, and do on a regular basis. Teachers are allowed to lead students in prayer, and do so on a regular basis.
They’re just not allowed to make it a condition of school attendance or other school activity. Or otherwise do it in a way that ostracises non-participants.
There’s a famous article by Gary Christenot describing how he finally got the point about separation of church and state when he stood up for a prayer before a high school football game… and got something Buddhist!
The invocation rotated among local clergy… but in that part of Hawaii, christians were such a small minority that they weren’t in the rotation!
I have seen christians manage to “feel persecuted” because they’re not allowed to impose christianity on others (despite the fact that, as Obama famously noted during his election campaign, that immediately leads to the insoluble question of which faction), but the “because” reasons cited here don’t exist.
As a strict atheist, I’m angry that atheists treat a non-cause as a cause.
Atheism is a state of being. I couldn’t care one bit less what other religious groups do to oppress this non-centralized, unorganized, non cause that people “belong” to simply because they do not believe in omniscient ghosts and a giant Father in Space.
Not being a believer, for me, allows me the peace to not get angry at slights ranging from petty to ancient to bad just-like-a-thousand-other-things.
If you want to be mad, have fun. But that makes it start to sound like a religion (as does much of the whining attached), a political cause, and a bunch of other detritus that I preferably do not want associated with my stance as a non-believer.
You are absolutely correct. I am nearly 60 and have spent so much of my life angry at one thing or another. I let it go sometimes, just to get a break from it , but this is something that angers me more every day as I watch my country debate things I thought had been resolved ages ago- teaching creationism in schools? WTF? It’s all insane. I am very grateful for the all the folks out there who share my anger. Thanks for writing this. It’s given me a lift just knowing you are out there.
Greta this is great! Sometimes I go on rants similar to some of the stuff on here and people will undoubtedly ask me why I’m so mad or tell me that I don’t need to be so angry. It’s great to see so many other people that “get it”.
Some Amazon reviewers a little disappointed with the Bible:
http://www.amazon.com/Boldtext-Pew-Bible-James-Version/product-reviews/0834003473/ref=cm_cr_pr_link_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar
Amen!! (Pun Intended) 😉
I want to record myself reading this like an angry atheist but 1) it’s late 2) they’re not my words tho I share the sentiments 3) the parts about not getting married sound funny coming out of the mouth of a straight man – but otherwise these words could just as easily be mine, and frankly I’m also mad gay people can’t get married as they wish. I’m happily divorced. I think everyone should have equal right to the pain and misery that marriage has in store for them.
It reads well tho. It flows nicely. I enjoy the “i get angry” paragraph structure of this piece like I enjoy the Dallas Texas skyline on different days under different weather conditions, or at sunrise or sunset.. Objectively speaking this piece just has a fun structure about it. I agree with the words and I also had fun with how they were put together. Nice piece. Thanks for writing it.
You are a crazy nutjob.
Just came across your blog and I have to say: Brilliantly done and stay angry. I’m sending this to all the Christians I’ve come across (including my fundy sister) who invariably ask me why I’m so angry.
I agree with all of your points. As I have posted many times, in many places, “Most of the problems of the world, are, and always have been, caused by religion. Mankind will never truly be free until the black yoke of religion is lifted by the clear light of truth and rational thinking.
I see that you are getting the usual quota of responses from theists. They contain the expected lies, circular reasoning and hypocritical comments I have learned to expect from those that prefer to abandon facts and logic in favor of fantasy and fables.
I am a Christian. I thoroughly enjoyed your blog. I came to it via my friend’s FB post. You raise valid points all around and I can’t and won’t offer a retort to any point you raised.
To be honest, I hadn’t thought of most of the points you raised. I will think about them–try to reconcile them.
I can’t apologize for others, but as a human being, I am sorry that you, and others, are treated the way you are because of what you do or do not believe.
My friend on FB who posted the link to your blog is an Atheist. He and I have been very close friends for almost two decades. He was my best man and I was a groomsman at his wedding. I have always had the utmost respect for him and his viewpoints. We have always been able to discuss our beliefs and disbeliefs with one another.
I think people should be ardent in their beliefs and share them with others in a CIVILIZED fashion. This means that if you don’t agree with someone, you can speak to them on the issue, but in the end it is THEIR decision. Regardless of what I think of their decision, I respect them enough as a human being to honor their choice.
I apologize if this post has wandered, but I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your post and the points you raised. This has definitely given me something to think about.
Thank you.
I am an A Theist, and tried to find the reason why God fearing people and A Theists are at loggerheads with each other. It then dawned on me that the problem is due to the fact that we do not define what we mean when referring to “God”.
When Christians refer to God, they actually mean to refer to the Creator of All. I think we all, A Theists and Christians agree that some “Force” acted as the Creator of All, it could even be Evolution itself. So there we have common ground. The problem comes when the Gods or God are clothed with the qualities of the Creator of All. God or the God’s are a different crowd of maybe super human beings that in the distant past “created” man by genetic engineering, and maybe even today controls our human destiny and doings. I, as an A Theist can live with this, because it does not violate the definition of being an A Theist. We must understand that there are most probably three levels of activity. One, the upper level, that is the Creator of all, second the level of the God’s or God, and the third level of human beings and demi god’s. The Bible is filled with the doings of the God’s, not as Creators, but as Genetic Engineers and Guy’s with “supernatural” abilities because from our human point of view they can do “magic”, because we are/were so under developed!. I loved the reading of “The 12 th Planet” by Zecharia Sitchin, he opened my eyes to the other possibilities of how we are being misled.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, for articulating in one long inventory list everything I’ve been feeling and/or experiencing throughout the last twenty years of my atheism. Incredible!
Thank you!!!! You said it perfectly.
I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian sect and even into adulthood I feared eternal hell fire. For years I felt a lot of anger about my indoctrination by my parents and the churches we attended. But I’m not angry anymore. I’ve largely gotten past my fears and I feel the religious are religious to their detriment and because of no fault of their own. They can’t help it. They’re like lemmings going over the cliff. As we learn more about the physical brain and it’s processes we may be able to eventually correct this weakness in human cognition, but for now, the best we can do is set the example. And that’s what I intend to do. I might add, it helps a lot to have an outlet for the frustrations with the way the world is today. If we have a group of people, however small, that we can be completely ourselves with, it goes a long way toward dealing with the shit that is gnawing away at reason. Loved your blog, but I won’t repost it on my Facebook page, because the people who need to hear it most, my fundamentalist friends, won’t read it. It’s too long and has adult language. Frustrating, but that’s the reality. I liked the graphics, though. Totally worked for me.
I love you. 🙂
Signed, a stay-at-home, homeschooling married mother of four (oh yes, and atheist) in “the heartland”
Excellent article (though a little long perhaps). I am an agnostic rather than an atheist but your points are very well taken and very well expressed. Thanks.
I get angry when I read comments like this :-
Christopher Henson wrote:
“The answer to Christopher’s question is actually contained in the question itself.
What is a “moral action” as opposed to an immoral one, and how do we define it, if there is no absolute right and wrong?
So, the question is not “can atheists be moral” but, rather, how can we say, with any confidence, that what they are doing is either moral or immoral, if morality itself is (as atheists believe) nothing more than the rumblings of chemicals, transmitting feelings inherited through our DNA, which can be altered to suit the needs of humans?”
Finally, someone else who grasps the simple concept that there is no morality to be found in an atom.
Look at it this way, we think of the Holocaust as a great evil, but if there is no God then sticking 6 million innocents into a gas chamber is just a physical action taking place within a physical universe – there is nothing right or wrong about it, plus gassing millions of people in no way contravenes the laws of physics.
Without God (or at least a spiritual existence beyond) there can be no right or wrong, no kindness or cruelty, no justice or injustice – merely the illusions of such concepts created by a consciousness that is itself an illusion.
BTW how exactly do inanimate atoms create awareness, I never could figure that part out. Silly me.
Posted by: Andrew Rutley | 02 November 2010 at 03:57 PM
I read that as “Atheists don’t mind if innocents get gassed”. Now, I admit this is written on Peter Hitchen’s blog page, and he is so anti-atheist (no matter what he says) it’s sometimes unbelievable what he says. But to allow this comment to get through whilst mine were ‘moderated’ (because I criticised him over his manners) is quite intolerant.
Great post, by the way.
Phew – me too, except it’s easier in the UK where there are more of us and more of the benignly indifferent.
Thanks for that – a good rant’s good for all of us.
Love it, keep up the good work.
Thank you. You’ve put in to words many things that I could not.
Dear Greta,
Was directed here from Bob Carroll’s SkepDic newsletter. Understand almost all of your quite valid points and your subsequent anger. Additionally, a comment from Annie Sprinkle? You rock, Greta.
However, the Galileo controversy is a bit more complex than the sound bite version most people are familiar with.
The myth: The physicist Galeleo was condemned and imprisoned by the Roman Catholic Church because his work conflicted with the teachings of the Bible.
The reality: Galileo’s trial for heresy was the culmination of a campaign to discredit him that was spearheaded by his enemies and rivals and inflamed by Galileo’s own hubris.
His punishment: House arrest and reciting a prayer of penance twice a day. Galileo spent that time completing his last book, “Discourses on Two New Sciences”, a recounting of his life’s work and scientific discoveries.
See William Weir’s “History’s Greatest Lies: The Startling Truths Behind World Events our History Books Got Wrong”
Wow! I’m a slightly old fashioned 55 year-old in Oxford, UK who rarely reads a blog, but this one was very captivating. Well done for voicing all this so eloquently. Above all, it spurred me to purchase “Blankets” for my teenage daughter – many thanks!
To tell you the truth, getting too mad at these assholes seems counter to what’s what.
I mean, I don’t believe in their imaginary playmate in the sky, and I don’t believe in getting emotional about something that is inevitable – the stupidness and meanness of the masses.
I’d rather just make fun of the stupid bastards. I like it more when they are annoyed, than when I am.
Let Carl Palladino and the other benighted reactionaries be mad. As far as I’m concerned, Madness is not a good basis for decision making.
Fuck ’em if they can’t take a joke!
I’m angry that believers try to associate themselves with charity in order to give the impression of benevolence. They seem to think that if they hitch their ugly wagon to charitable causes it will give them the appearance of compassion and respectability. But a wolf in sheep’s’ clothing is still a wolf.
My atheist family has quietly done charity work over the years – not to gain acceptance by peers or to curry favor with gods but because there are those who need our help. The needy don’t need or want sermons.
Bigotry, wickedness, inhumanity and willful ignorance have marked most of the world’s religions throughout history. Religion poses as a benefactor of mankind but under it’s facade of virtue and holiness, it’s full of hypocrisy and lies.
Pick up any newspaper today, and you’ll find almost endless examples of religious leaders who preach love, peace, and compassion but who fan the flames of hatred and invoke the name of God to legitimize their brutal conflicts. It should be plain that religion is more often than not, a destructive force in our lives.
Our only hope for world peace would be if, in time, every religious belief dies out as we evolve to become more enlightened and civilized. The demise of religion would allow for lasting solutions to most of mankind’s problems.
When religion isn’t encouraging strife it’s acting as a drug which numbs the human conscience and fills the brain with escapist fantasies. It causes humans to be narrow, superstitious, and full of hatred and fear.
Allegedly, it’s supposed to enlighten and inspire us. More often than not, though, what it does is engender strife, intolerance, and hatred.
Will the believers ever lift themselves up out of the dark ages? It’s time for them to sober up, grow up, wipe the sleep from their eyes and get started on making this world a better place. The first thing they need to do is recognize the folly of their pathetic superstitions and break the cold chains of religion.
This post made me angry. In a good way.
It’s funny to see theists come in here and do the exact things you’re angry about.
They.
Still.
Do.
Not.
Get.
It.
Thank you, Greta, for articulating so much of what makes some of us so outspoken as atheists.
I’M ANGRY that religious people think they have the corner on joy and peace in life. As a matter of fact, I started appreciating THIS life more when I realized it is the only one and not rehearsal for something else to come.
I’ve often thought that the attitude that life is cheap (war or crime) springs from ideas that there is another life after this one.
Right on, sister.
as a non-religious person living in Australia, i am shocked that atheists are treated the way you depict them in America. So much for the land of the free. You really should move to Australia.
Thank you for this listing. I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Changing the the gigantic wave of history is slow, we will succeed in removing the foolishness of god from our world some day.
Hi Greta,
Your post is very interesting. I recognize your anger, and understand it. However as a Christian, and I am sure other “believers” can testify to this, that we are angry at many of the same things you are. However, I would like to add one more. I am angry that many atheists do not respect my religion and my belief, and think I am dumb or misinformed, just because they believe something different than I do. I do not understand why we can’t just be a nation of “believe whatever you want”, ad that everyone respects eachother’s set or lack of beliefs.
I just wanted to let you know that you also have a younger audience! (20 years old) And I must say, it was such a relief to read your post. Although CA is often referred to as one of the more “liberal” states, I often find myself a blue dot surrounded by a sea of red. I know this is not the case for everyone when dealing with problems concerning religion, but it has certainly reaped havoc upon my family and my friendships with many people of faith, as well as my hometown community.
What I struggle with is remaining mature in my arguments, and reading such a put together opinion gives me a better chance at doing so.
Thanks again, excellent post.
JoJo: The problem comes when beliefs motivate actions. In the world that I grew up in, where religion was a private affair not discussed, I had relatively little contact, and no conflict.
But now I inhabit a world where folks are making deadly serious efforts to emasculate biology education on the grounds that it contradicts their favorite creation myth.
Or worse, arguing in earnest that it is improper to try to prevent ecological disaster because the end of the world is God’s will. That is not only bullshit, it’s catastrophically dangerous bullshit, and I have no choice but to fight it if I want my grandchildren to have a planet to live on.
As for the latter point, the word “respect” is unfortunately highly ambiguous. Can you clarify?
For example, can you explain how you respect Hindu, Shinto, or Islamic religions and beliefs?
This story about prayer at a high school football game is one I like to share for consciousness-raising purposes.
All I can say is that I could not have said it better – I simply could not agree more with your comments. Excellent!
Thank you so much, for writing this! Brilliantly put – beautifully executed and I bet these arguments will be very very hard to refute by any Christian/Muslim/Member of whichever club of worshiping imaginary friends. 🙂
Best Wishes from Switzerland! 😀
I get angry when Atheists know that religion is base in faith, belief that is not based on proof. But still patronize the believers for blindly following it. Its called faith because if they began to doubt they’d realize the truth, it, however, does no good top simply criticize them. That is why they write off rational arguments, because they seem as if only design to antagonize. I get your upset, but the only people who will read this is people who already agree, so it becomes pointless. You must create some relatable element for doubters if you want them to understand you.
Angry Biznatch
An awesome piece of writing, powerful in the naked truths it imparts!
I put a link to this on my Facebook page!
People should be treated equally whether they believe in God or do not. I like some of your points. I am a person of faith but you have a lot of valid points. I hate religiosity. It seems like politics. Each person should think for themselves. I am for freedom to believe or not to believe. It’s our free choice. I will study your thoughtful words and will be wiser for them.
Many regards,
This is awesome! One minor detail, though, some Ayn Rand followers could be considered atheist fundamentalists with respect to Rand’s writings. Other than that, everything you said was spot on!
Is it impossible for people to understand that Jesus was a fucking HUMAN and was MORTAL and HUMANS have the ability to forgive and love? stop using a scapegoat. stop using religion as an excuse to “sin” and be absolved of the sin with a simple visit to the church.
Thanks for the wonderful blog Greta
as an adolescent coming into adulthood i continue to see reasons why atheism is the logical choice, it simply makes sense, i thank you for relighting the fire of belief (in science) in me
SHUT UP YPU SILL BITCH AND READ THE DAMN BIblE YOU ARE GOING TO HELL< I KNOW THERE IS A GOD # WEEKS AGO I SAW A DEMON IN UPSTATE NEE YORK, ITS WAS 7 FOOT TALL AND HAS NO FACE BUT I PRAYED TO GO AND I DIDNT SHOW FEAR AND I WAS FINE,SO STFU YOU STUPID DYKE
Well, that does it, I can stop blogging now. Greta Christina, bravo and hats off to you.
You may not speak for everyone, but you sure as hell speak for me! Great write!
Yaaay! I just found this post, but you say it very, very well. Thank you!
I think being an Atheist has made two things very clear, I can only see as knowing there is nothing after death, it gives all the more meaning to life – and without wearing my knees out talking to thin air. Also the only thing which seems to be a constant in humanity is stupidity at the “Religious” end of the scale. Logic and reason.
I’m sorry Religion and Religious people have done so much wrong.
No reasoning makes it right.
You’ve articulated your anger beautifully, and although I am not a Christian I have very close ties (more culturally than anything) to Christianity and feel their side and my side acutely (I’m agnostic–most Christians seem to view agnostics as having “just a little more hope” than atheists). I relate to your anger. I am angry at many of the same things.
Total equality is a long battle ahead. Keep fighting.
This is the email of Father Tim Moyle
[email protected]
who explained why atheists are angry
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/blog.html?b=life.nationalpost.com/2010/12/20/dear-atheists-why-the-long-face&s=Opinion
Perhaps we could email him and ask some questions 🙂
Your anger made me happy and satisfied. Thank you. You’ve said all the things that I would love to say if only I were as articulate. Answering idiotic statements from religious people can so often leave me frustratingly silent. Except for the “atheist in the foxhole” since there was a two-week period where my lymphoma hadn’t been staged and I was already 3 years into it. And yep I was still an atheist. (turned out to be stage 1 thankfully).
5 stars for you! The most complete non-fail in the history of internet blogging.
A great rant, thanks!
But still not Number One with a Star: that honor goes to
Armor of God
If you’ve read it before, read it again, and get really angry.
Nice post Greta, you tell it like it is. Keep up the good work.
Hey, just wanted to say thank you for this post from a fellow atheist 🙂 You’re so right!
But in your next blog, would you mind not using the word “queer” to donate homosexuals? To some people in the LGBT community, it can be quite offensive and is used as an insult by some people. I know you didn’t mean it in that way and I 100% agree with everything you’ve said but some people do find it offensive.
Alex, everything is used as an insult by some people. You can keep changing the name you use (what’s the current euphemism for “cripple”?) or just decide, as groups like Queer Nation did, to reclaim the name.
Likewise, there’s someone who’s offended by anything. Some people don’t much like the fact that Greta is a U.S. citizen.
I try to avoid giving serious affront, and go a little bit further in the name of politeness, but there comes a time (say, three years and two months after the essay was first posted!) where anyone has to decide that an objection isn’t worth catering to.
Surely a queer married to a queer in the queerest city in North America has a few queer friends who can guide her use of the term?
I am from England and although I am far away I can hear you and feel your pain. Sit down and have a nice cup of tea.
Interesting blog. As a rational Christian, I agree with most if not all your points. But that’s not to say I don’t see problems.
For instance, of course it is stupid asshole talk to say “there are no atheists in foxholes”, as if that would be an argument. But compare it to what I heard so often from atheists, for instance the “we are all born atheist” pseudo-argument. That too is demeaning, it is also claiming a priority for atheism over everything else. But it is a very flawed point of view. We are no more born atheist then we are born theist or born educated. We are born un-educated. From that point of view, the aforementioned argument may shed a strange light on the atheist’s own argument. If you know what I mean. The whole point here often boils down to the question whether we want to take a position of not knowing everything, and listening to other opinions if they make sense.
Atheism makes sense in a different way than theism. Atheism tends to simplify the big questions of life, theism tends to make life more complex It isn’t always easy to tell where theism stops to bring about the complexity of life, and where it (the theologians, the believers) start to add their own complexities to it. For atheism too, it isn’t always clear where they make a good straightforward point and where they start to ‘ridicule’ rather than really making things simpler in a justified kind of way.
About anger: some anger may be good (think catharsis) but anger is usually or very often perceived as negative and destructive – certainly if there’s no balancing of the whole set of views.
Add to it that a-theism already sounds to most people like taking an idea called theism and put an ‘a’ in front of it, thinking it’s now a better idea – and you may understand why the anger of atheists may not always be convincing.
So even while I agree with almost every point in the blog, I also have my doubts about where this will ultimately lead you.
We Christians have our reasons to be angry, too. Rational Christians are often angry about the hijacking of our faith in a God (as being a reasonable conjecture on the issue of life and meaning) by religious fundamentalists. We are also angry at people like the ‘new atheists’ because they use the most simplistic biblical literalism-based ideas as a pretext to simply demean ‘religion’ in general.
I have a great deal of respect for all my own atheist friends (I have lots of them on myspace for instance), but I have no stomach for giving guys like Dawkins or Harris one inch of room in the political arena. Because those guys are just betraying the sciences – that is how we see it. They are selling atheism under the cover of science, they are selling evolution theory as if that would require an atheist mind (and then they keep whining because ‘creationism’ does not stop existing). I wished there was no such mix of science and theism (=creationism, or ID), but I also strongly wish there are no atheists who keep fueling this stuff because they turn good science into an atheist kinda thing.
Nevertheless, your blog was a nice read. I just do not recommend to depend on anger. I don’t think any solutions ever came out of anger and conflict-based rhetoric.
Kind regards,
J.
Jcmmanuel
Atheism is a lack of belief – the moment you are born you have no beliefs, they have to be taught to you, so you are born a implicit atheist.
This is why generally kids follow the religion of the people that raised them.
I generally don’t use that argument anymore though because it isn’t a very good one – when you are born you don’t know about evolution, global warming or taxes either.
As to complexity – think outside of the religious box for a second and move onto the box labeled “money”. There is a trend in investments that pops up every now and then where something has an incredibly complex structure.
From a share-buyer’s point of view the best thing you can do in these cases is avoid them like the plague. These are your Enrons and the bad derivatives that took down the US economy under Bush.
Complexity is used to disguise a basically bad investment, not to promote stability.
Auditors come across this sort of situation when the books are unnecessarily complex – because in that mess small amounts that have been stolen might not be noticed.
The same goes for various other frauds. If you read homeopathic litrature for example, it is riddled with jargon specifically to confuse you.
And with some things it is not even that, but the way we tend to build up defences for things which if we are honest with ourselves we know aren’t true.
Think about how many atheists claimed Obama was secretely one of us in the run-up to the presidential elections.
The urge towards simplicity is often uncomfortable – but it is also often a great indicator that nobody is trying to obscure what is actually being said.
Brilliant
Excellent post! Well done.
Oh my God, when you mentioned Craig Thompson, I felt ready to cry. I saw that graphic novel on the shelf of a comic store, and it was good but I had to stop reading because it was so painful, seeing the awful stuff he went through as a child. I don’t think I even got to the part you’re referring to. I just felt so depressed reading it, partly because it reminded me of the bullying I suffered as a kid, and of the even worse bullying and abuse I know other kids in the world experience (and what assholes most parents are without even realizing it); and partly because it’s just so sad and wrong, even more so because it’s KIDS, who are so impressionable and naïve and they need more love and care than at any other stage in love, and yet especially back in those days that’s when they got it the least ; and you realize that kind of bullshit is happening all the time and you’re powerless to just appear before them and put a stop to all of it, right now, at this very moment.
~sigh~ Wow I really worked myself up there, didn’t I?
But your mention of that graphic novel has inspired me to give it another whirl, no matter how painful it is. Perhaps I’ll learn something really valuable from it, among all the awfulness? After all, I did from Fruits Basket, which makes me cry almost every single volume. XD
I am a strong atheist, very anti-religious, and I agree with everything you have said here (and more that aren’t mentioned)except one issue – abortion. Every conceived human has a right to live and no one should have the right to take that right to life away from them or to refuse them the right to life.Any one who does do that is a murderer because the conceived human being is innocent and did not do anything to deserve being killed.
Thank you.
Yaya, for what it’s worth, I consider “humanity” and the associated protections a matter of degree rather than black/white. There are family pets whose death I would grieve over more than certain amoral monsters. Even though the latter are undeniably Homo sapiens.
Likewise, a cluster of cells that could grow into a person is working its way up that scale, but I don’t consider a miscarriage as much of a tragedy as the death of a mature person.
Think hard, yes, but a child who is unwanted and unsupportable is a tragedy, too.
If all of this were independent of the mother it would be a lot closer. But the deciding factor for me is that pregnancy is a huge burden, and I don’t have the right to tell a woman that she has to endure a pregnancy any more than I would tell someone they have to live with a cleft palate.
While it is considered laudable, the law does not (and should not) require a person to risk their health to save another. The fact that my cousin will doe without a kidney transplant and I am a compatible donor does not mean that I am required to offer mine.
I consider the case of a woman’s uterus pretty analogous.
I see a lot of distortions of the truth in this rant.
Also, the writer indicates that bad behavior by some Christians is an indication of the beliefs and behavior of all Christians.
The truth is that the Christian religion is one based on love of God and love of other people. I pray that all people that read this comment would consider receiving God’s free gift of grace through Jesus Christ and live life as a new person as a result of this life changing decision.
Keith: Can you point to one specifically? If you read, she very carefully says “I’m angry when believers do (religious-inspired action).” This doesn’t seem to me to carry any implication that all or even most religious believers do that, just that it happens enough to make Greta angry.
This isn’t universal behavior of religious believers, or even christians. It would be impossible to generalize about a few billion people like that.
I fuckin’ love you!!!!
This made me so so happy. 🙂
Awesome post! Thanks for this.
Awesome post! Thank you.
My “coming out” as an Atheist was a lunch I had with a gay man. He was visiting Japan (where I live) together with his lover, very openly, no problems or second thoughts. However, he was active in his church and asked me about my religious activities. “Um, I’m not religious” was my wussy answer.
Afterward I though it through…. if this guy can be completely open about his lifestyle, who am I to be so reticent?
In short — many thanks for writing this! If all of us simply express ourselves openly, I think we will be amazed how many people will join.
I’m angry because our congress and supreme court is being overrun with religious fascists, because these religionists are diverting billions of our tax dollars to fund the propagation and survival of their religions, because they are in our bedrooms and on our reproductive organs. Hey, you religionists don’t want me to be angry? Get the fuck out of our government.
Greta, Love your blog, and this post in particular. Reading this was the final straw in pushing me to take up my own blog on atheism, and other things as well, which I’ll link here. Thanks for saying what needed to be said so sensibly and elegantly.
http://greatdoubt.blogspot.com/
Anger is always the second emotion, anger stands in front of the more difficult feelings of hurt, fear and disappointment and frustration. In your writing, I sense it is frustration because of unfairness.
Why do we expect fairness? Fairness implies right and wrong, which implies authority. There is no god, we are the result of natural selection acting upon random mutations. Nothing fair in that. We need to recognize that our expectation of fair is erroneous in it’s presuppositions and retrain our minds.
John,
I’m not sure I understand your post. Natural selection, mutations, etc. are based on natural processes that lack consciousness and intent. Fairness is a human concept based on human relationships; it has nothing to do with non-human processes.
Our civilizagtion has progressed to (putatively) a democracy where everyone – EVERYONE – has equal opportunity to live and prosper. This idea is both explicitly and implicitly expressed in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.
As I read it, Greta is saying that people who represent our dominant cultural construct – christianity – are excluding some people, especially atheists, from the equal opportunities that lie at the core of the American Ideal as conceptualized by the country’s founders. And christians claim to hold our constitution in highest regard (although in conservative-speak constitution is code for the 2nd amendment).
This is hypocrisy, and it is unfair, and it justifiably makes excluded groups like atheists angry.
_Very_ well said.
“I’m angry that women are dying of AIDS in Africa and South America because the Catholic Church has convinced them that using condoms makes baby Jesus cry.”
Men get AIDS because of this too.
I am always surprised that people who have known me a long time are surprised that I am a down-to-the-bone atheist.
They want to know about the schizm, the great revelation, and are always disappointed to find out that I simply grew up expecting Christianity to work and observed that it didn’t.
And am happy, and healthy, and optimistic without it.
I read this. Twice. Then I read the PS: about checking if what I was to say had been said already. So…
ATTAGIRL! And Thank You, humbly and profoundly.
I Read it. I Enjoyed reading it.
I feel No ones right or wrong on this one..
Every one has their beliefs and reasons for them as long as ones beliefs is not imposed it onto another.
Once we all agree to that.. we should ALL be able to live in peace… 🙂
Love this little athiest circle jerk but it’s to bad that your all just as clueless as any religious freak. None of you know shit about the universe or the meaning of life. Your just as bad as the people you hate.
I love your text, and I agree fullheartedly with everything you’ve written, but I get angry when people claims the US to be the richest nation in the world, cause that’s a long way from the truth. It’s not necessarily the most powerful one either, it might just be one of the most agressive ones.
Sorry. It’s just upsetting that the propaganda machinery over there actually makes its population believe these things.
Erik,
In terms of total wealth, the US is the richest (I checked Wikipedia). Not per capita (I believe the US is outside the Top 5 but in the Top 10) though.
Similarly, the US military probably does have the largest “power” capabilities, again from simply a “brute strength” perspective (not surprising given that the US outspends almost the entire rest of the world on “Defense”). Of course, wars aren’t fought on hypothetical “power” comparisons… your point is important and well-taken, but you are somewhat mistaken 🙂
jason: The difference is that I can admit my ignorance, and work to remedy it. I don’t know where the universe came from, but I know it didn’t come out of the left nostril of the Great Green Arkleseizure. Nor did Yahweh pull it out of his butt.
Which leaves me free to grapple with the problems and try to find the right answer.
As a (closet) atheist your ranting makes me feel not so alone. I have lived in the Bible Belt (southern IN) my entire life, was raised catholic before I had a chance to figure it out for myself. There are so many people out there that agree with everything you said, even if we are anonymous in our support. I dream that one day the freedom of and from religion is actually a fact.
I have always, and still am, too concerned with surface smoothness to speak out. I am struggling to accept that recognizing oppression, discrimination, hatred, intimidation requires you to do something about it. Reading this was like the proverbial light bulb – it is not just ‘okay’ – it is *necessary* to be angry, and to express that anger in clear, supported statements. Not out of hate, not out of retaliation, but out of a desire to change what’s wrong: that should be the atheist’s creed. Thank you.
Yes, I utterly agree with everything you have said. I’m angry too – angry at having to defend my view of the world as an atheist from ignorant, patronising people who look for “compromise” in everything. No, don’t look for compromise, look for the truth, look for the facts!
Carry on the good work.
FANfuckingTASTIC – brought tears to my eyes – thank you very much ! xo
I honestly cannot express my gratitude with the extent of my vocabulary, or possibly that of the English language. You have said everything that I want to say to every single person of ignorant faith. I was raised in an open-minded Mormon (to say nothing of an oxymoron) family, with Catholics on my mom’s side and Mormons on my dad’s. Both of my parents are non-denominational now and have been since I was sixteen.
My brother is gay, and in high school, I managed to open the mind of a homophobe that sat next to me in my trigonometry class. I am sure that his boyfriend would thank me now.
Considering the size of the town I grew up in, it is quite tough to be an Atheist. The entire school board is made up of pastors, bible study leaders, and their submissive wives. Seeing posts such as this one is like a fresh breath of intellectual air.
On behalf of the entire intellectual, open-minded community, thank you. I hope that it won’t be long before you and Ingrid can be married. 5 states down, 45 to go.
Nah, you’ve accepted their frame. I don’t think atheists, even the vocal ones, are any angrier than xtians, who feel oppressed as soon as they’re unable to oppress. When they say we’re angry, they’re projecting. They probably had just been told that there was no god, and they’re upset.
I totally agree with you, GC. That needed to be said and I hope people, lots of people see it. I have…pretty much all my friends are like, evangelical christian, and they know I’m an atheist, but we pretty much leave our beliefs alone and have a good time as friends. More people who are politicians should take that viewpoint I think. Religion isn’t a major factor in deciding to be someone’s friend or anything. Especially kids. Most christian kids are just you know, doing the things that their parents told them to do. Sometimes the habits carry over into adulthood, and they never really get around to questioning their beliefs because they think “Well, I’ve been doing it all my life so why stop?” I stumbled on a graph recently that showed the hole that was made in scientific progress by the christian dark ages. Let me tell you, it was GINORMOUS. Anyways, thanks for voicing your opinions so brashly and boldly. I wish I could do that 🙂
We agnostic and atheist people all agree that the emperor has no clothes. Also, there is no point in arguing with religious adults. The real battle is for the minds of the children. We need to find ways educate them, and prevent little one’s from becoming adults with blind faith.
U mad?
Awesome post. I agree with everything you’ve said here, and I just want to say thank you for putting it out there for people to see. I like to think that someone somewhere will read this post and finally realize that all of this is true and make a change in their life.
This division between theist and atheist is a politicization of a nonexistent difference. There are many KEYs in which to descibe the omniverse. The “god key” and the scinetific “key” are just two of them.Many mythopoetic keys have been used. And music. Just think music and see the absurdity of extrapoláting one key and arguing about its “existence”.
Very well said and true. Many of the religious folks that I know, which is most of the people I know, have a big problem with my view of the Bible. I always ask them, “have you read this book”? Most have not all the way through, and most are offended when I state that even if you could convince me today that God existed, and he was God of the Bible, I would not worship him. god of the Bible is evil, petty, conceited, and contradicting.
jim: You’re not making sense. What is this “god key” thing and how does it describe anything?
Chris: You might enjoy Tim Maroney’s famous essay/rant Even if I did believe (I still would not worship the bastard).
Look what your god did. All religion has destroyed this planet, and you wonder why we are pissed off. Your lucky we are just pissed. Soon it will be much worst.
You go ahead a put your faith in false prophets. These are the same people that thought the world was flat. Hitler had the same faith.
Satan: Er, no. Hitler was a practicing Catholic, and the Catholic church has always accepted that the earth is round. The Venerable Bede’s widely-read astronomy writings gave the A.D. year-numbering system and a formula for computing the date of Easter, and also described a ball-like Earth.
thank you, thank you, thank you …
and might i add one more … i am angry that my family insists that because i was baptised a catholic (days after my birth), that i remain a catholic. I am pretty sure that a belief in the main character of your religion would be a prerequisite to being considered a member, right? well i don’t, so get used to it. and at any rate, under your pope’s rules, i’m a candidate for excommunication should any one ever accuse me of being a catholic. want details? i have a little list ….
again, thank you, thank you, thank you!
geralyn, that does happen to be how the Catholic church defines its membership. I usually use it in the other direction, when someone raises the “Hitler=atheist” canard.
If you actually want to rub your family’s face in it, instructions for formally leaving the Catholic church are widely available on the Internet.
With a few thousand years of bureaucracy behind it, it’s hopefully not surprising that “there’s a form for that”.
god U have every Right to be Angry Greta!! We all do who are Sick + Tired of this Religious Bullshit!! It’s beyond all Belief + a Sad + Pathetic Disgrace! These Stoopid Religious Repubes Taliban-like Holier-than-Thou Pompous Arrogant (think Bush) Fundamentalist Morons are Pure Hypocrites + as U Rightly pointed out da SCUM o the Earth* On a Brighter Note Jerry Falwell has DIED!! 😉
None of this would bother you if you were a right thinking agnostic. An atheist is just as bad as a Christian – both thinking they know what they do not know!
Without a context the word ‘god’ is meaningless
To what, if anything, does ‘god’ refer? Even in the so-called western tradition, there are many gods.
1) The ‘god’ of the state — referred to on US bills and coins. It is not the xian deity. Just check rulings of US federal courts.
2) The âgodâ of P/Saul of Tarsus (50-65 CE). The divinized post-resurrection âchristâ based on hellenized judaism and cults from the eastern roman empire, including those of the Goddess Isis and Antinous, the deified homosexual lover of emperor Hadrian. As Nietzsche underlined — Paulâs inversion of ancient values — the god of slaves, outcasts, ignoramuses, prudes, rancorous urban louts — quintessential tea-party fodder mid-first century.
2) The ‘god’ of platonized xianity. In order to become philosophically trendy, xians picked up It, the mystical One from Plotinus (205-270 CE).
3) The ‘god’ of aristotelian xianity, the ‘god’ of RC (thomist) theology even today.
4) The ‘god’ of stoicism — the “logos”. A rational principle infusing all matter becomes a pre-existent christ in the so-called “gospel” according to “John”.
5) The amalgamated ‘god’ of the Big-3 Monster-theisms. “He” is the god of the “book” — the peeping tom of judaism, xianity, and islam.
6) The ‘god’ of xian creed(s). “He” of three-part multiple personality disorder. The earliest RC god (450 CE) made definitive by the “councils”. Not even fundies dare deny these RC creeds totally.
And, there are more concepts in the âcanonâ — the âgodâ of the deists (important in US and French history); the âgodâ of pantheism (Spinoza). Oh yes, there is the âgodâ of theologians — von Schleiermacher bis Tillich!
Shall all these âconceptsâ of âgodâ be weighted equally? Of course not.
âAgnosticismâ, âatheismâ, âtheismâ, âdeismâ, âstatismâ . . . are themselves meaningless terms until the âconceptâ of âgodâ becomes clarified.
the anti_supernaturalist
Bravo and bang on! Well put!
philosophershaze.weebly.com
Joseph Morton–
So a “right thinking” agnostic wouldn’t be bothered by religious violence and bigotry, women being killed by AIDS because of threats of Hellfire, traumatizing children with threats of Hellfire, LGBT people having their rights stripped away, zealots flying planes into buildings, children who are killed because their parents withheld life-saving medicine and prayed instead, children who are killed as “witches” by religious fanatics, encouraging ignorance in public schools, forcing sick people to suffer because it’s “holy”, or harassment non-religious soldiers by their religious military superiors?
I’m angry that posts like this have to be written.
Me too!
Nah: concur’d.
Not all atheists think in lockstep about political issues like the labor movement, gay marriage, and abortion. Don’t assume that we do.
Bill, I’m shocked! Didn’t you know that the Internation Atheist Conspiracy has rented out some old Soviet gulags to lock people up who haven’t paid their dues to the Wobblies or haven’t memorized all six verses of The Red Flag?
(Seriously, it is frustrating that America has no freaking clue what “left-wing” means; the Democrats count as respected members views scarcely differing from those of Jean-Marie Le Pen, the official Republican platform would gladden Torquemada’s heart, and the Tea Partiers would give him a woodie.)
The people’s flag is palest pink
It’s not as red as you might think. White collar workers stand and cheer
Your Labour government is here.
We’ll change the country bit by bit
so no-one will notice it.
And just to show we’re still sincere
We’ll sing the Red Flag once a year.
to correct – there are no atheists in foxholes because: they’re too busy kicking ass on the front lines instead of praying to their deity in their foxhole like a goddamn coward.
Joseph Morton:
Like Greta, I am certain that no gods exist. But that is for a definition of certainty that you may find dishonest: I consider it proved beyond reasonable doubt.
This is not a dogmatic certainty, but a pragmatic one. When I leave my house every morning, I am certain that I have left it safe: the stove is off, the water is not running, the doors are locked, etc. If there were any real doubt in my mind, I would go back and check! I fully understand that it is not an absolute certainty; I’m capable of error. But I don’t let the fear prevent me from ever leaving the house!
I’m willing to entertain remarkable new evidence, on the subject of gods, but I have considered it enough that I’m no longer actively looking for more evidence. My attention is a limited resource, and I have better things to do with my life.
Contrast this with the typical religious apologist. Every fortunate event is a sign of God’s benificence, and you should pray in thanks. Every unfortunate event is proof of Satan’s malevolence, and you should pray for aid.
Every unexplained occurrence is a miracle sent from God. Every mundane explanation is a test of faith, sent from God.
The difference is between not seeing conflicting evidence because it doesn’t exist, and not seeing conflicting evidence because one is wilfully blind.
Thank you for validating my anger and letting me know that Im not alone.
Greta, you can speak for me, any time!
Excellent, excellent post!
I love it!
You sound like the happiest person ever. I envy your joyful life.
Also, I’ve been told my whole atheist life that I will be shown the proof that I can’t seem to find if I just shove my life blindly in god’s hands. Yet, how can I do that when I see no reason to believe in this all powerful being who in the time I was a devout Christian showed me nothing?
Fucking awesome rant, and this is from a white middle aged male brought up Catholic but after 30 years of silently wondering WTF has finally seen the light. And guess what, it was the sun all along and the beauty of this universe and mankind.
Stay angry 🙂
Hi, I agree with your points in part. However… I went through that particular period of anger several years ago. But if I may, I’d like to provide another perspective. It is singularly the act of DIVISION among humans that causes the vast majority of the problems you’ve listed. And the answer to why that is, is simple. We are all one. Each and every one of us, each and every particle/wave that exists in the universe is inextricably intertwined with every single other. To regard one another as different, is to see ourselves as somehow independent of the others. We all have iron running through our veins that was at one point part of a different animal, then it was soil before that, then it was a slab of rock. And that process continues constantly, We are more like whirlpools (very slow whirlpools) than we are like a static object, for there is no such thing. In any case, my statement towards you is that to define yourself as an angry atheist is akin to defining yourself as a divisive destroyer, for, anger is a destructive force. Love on the other hand, is a creative and guiding force. Use Love.
I read a few of these comments, especially the one by lociguru…. okay confirmation bias much? you’re angry because some one else in your work place doesn’t share you imaginary friend? That your the minority? Do you know how much shit i have to deal with on a college campus?? These aren’t dumb people yet there are fucking churches associated with my school! No, atheists ( most of us) aren’t intolerant we are just sick and tired of listening to you Christians Muslims etc trying to convert us and argue your imaginary friend!
So please re-read this bog and see beyond what you just want to see.
great job to you, taking your angry out in words rather than violence, i applaud you and hope for the best for you union ( i’m starting to dislike the word marriage due to its religious affiliations)
Best wishes,
This is the first post I have ever read of your’s, and I found it via Stumbleupon. I Felt the need to comment for the first time in my life on a blog just to say: Fucking rock on. Finally, finally someone has pulled together the things I hate about religion in one place. I give you major kudos. Very well written.
I am assuming that in writing this article, Greta believes in the existence of right and wrong? Or are all these simply personal offenses? For example, some would say there is nothing wrong with a priest molesting a child. I assume that Greta would have a problem with it however, as most people would; but how would she challenge it?
Thank you. <3
maybe if you had jeebus in your life you wouldnt be so damned angry. LOL
Good piece. I am certainly tired of people throwing religion at me! Life often sucks, and these people do not have the guts and dignity to take the suckage. The tragedy in Japan has a lot of lessons particularly how to live right, and tragedy will come I assure you.
Ben, that’s actually a tricky question to answer. First, “right” and “wrong” are obviously concepts, not physical objects, so they don’t exist in a material sense.
It’s also a bit like asking whether “music” and “noise” exist. The boundary between the two gets quite fuzzy when you look at it, and not everyone agrees which side some things lie on.
So they don’t exist in the sense of being clearly and unambiguously recognizable. The sky is blue, the grass is green, and turquoise… let me get back to you on that.
What they are are social conventions that appear to have value for the people who follow them. So in addition to my learned reactions, there are in fact good reasons for making those judgments.
But cultures to this day differ, for example, on important issues such as the “rightness” of suicide or prison.
They exist as general labels, and some actions are clearly in one category or the other, but although many people wish for a clear sharp boundary between them, I don’t think it exists.
U MAD?
Amen! (LOL)
i get angry when atheist people are prejudice against all religious people when they only notice the bad and never the good.
and i get angry when they bitch about the religious people when they do the exact same thing.
i get angry when people wont just let shit go, and let it happen. your stupid bullshit isnt going to change anything.
there are open minded religious people out here. please be more considerate and specific.
Well tell us how you really feel…..
Just a bit of housekeeping: I don’t usually delete comments from the Atheists and Anger post: I have a much higher threshold here for the kinds of comments I tolerate, and I mostly like to leave it as is. However, I have just had to delete the first one, as it contained an overt threat of violence. Just an FYI. (I also usually don’t comment here or reply to comments the way I often do in my blog, and am now going to slip back into the shadows.)
Oh the horror. Did Brad really post about women submitting to their husbands? REALLY? My God Evanglicals make me sick. And I was one. My Bachelor’s degree is in conservative theology. Billy Graham as my hero, etc. It almost killed me. The crazy-making statements like, “I have a personal relationship with God,” made me want to respond, “Oh really? A relationship? You relate to each other? You communicated with God and He communicates back? Then ask Him the score to the upcoming Cowboys game, will you? I’ve got a big bet on that one.” This is a truly great piece of writing – should be published EVERYWHERE!!
I also don’t understand why people are so mean and their comments so violent and hurtful. Yet clearly they have come to this site and they read the blog! Methinks they doth protest too much . . .
@JY Bullshit! What atheist’s strictly adhere to is what is ACTUALLY true. Not vagueries, not perceptions, not what makes us feel good but what is objectively true. Why is this so hard for the intellectually dishonest to understand?
I can see clearly what your angry about and will not disagree nor debate it. However, as stated above somewhere, you seem mad at all Christians, especially those who have “wronged” you. I am a Christian and follow the words of Jesus as best I can. I treat anyone as I want to be treated and I love my neighbor (when possible).
I have turned the cheek more than you would ever believe and have never stolen or murdered anyone.
These simple ideas are the way I try to live and if that’s wrong, then so be it. Do I need Jesus and Christianity to live this way? no, do you? no. I just choose this as my path.
I got here from an Atheist friend of mine on face book and enjoy learning about other beliefs.
However, instead of crucifying all Christians. You could have informed those of us what we could do to not Anger you, had we met, or to inform our fellow Christians as to the way to live with Atheist’s as equals and in friendship. I understand we should already know and treat you as we treat each other, however the cookie cutter Christian majority tend to follow the lead of a shepherd. Theses guys tend to influence the flock, based on their interpetation. The more religious they become, the more away from Christ they go.
The whole I’m a good person and I pray for a new TV are the Cookie Cutter Christian ideas I’m talking about. As long as these types of Christians are around, you will always be angry.
In ending, we are not all the way you made it sound, however, it sounds like you certainly have been persecuted for your beliefs, and I am sorry. No one deserves that,
Thanks,
Todd Brooks
Thank you
Dear Greta,
And I’m angry that I had to lose my father because my fucking country’s Islamic government did not like his religious label (Baha’i) after the shitty Islamic Revolution in Iran. He spent three year of his life in prison and was executed, leaving my mother as a widow at the age of 40, and I had to live a life of solitude with my mother because my whole family was torn into pieces after my father died. My brothers could never get back to Iran and they have spent more than 30 years of their life without seeing their mother.
And I’m angry that my mother never got married as she had to be the symbol of patience and religious scarification to keep my father’s name alive as a martyr!
And I’m angry because I don’t know if I should be proud of my father, because he said NO to an Islamic fundamentalist government, or shall I be ashamed of his decision and how it ruined my entire life.
And I’m angry that my girl friend who has a super voice can not become a singer because she is a Christian living in an Islamic country. She can’t be an artist because she is a woman!! and she can’t sing exclusively for females, because she has a christian family!!
And I’m angry that we have to stand the sight of religion on our planet, which has been the cause of death, destruction and poverty of many nations (and still counting)
I completely agree with you. All the things you stated above make me angry as well. I was raised Catholic and the whole time the main tool they used was fear. I went to catechism and every time that I asked a question that my teacher did not like I was told that I was sinning. That I was damned for asking that. That I had to ask for forgiveness merely because I was curious. Funny thing is they simultaneously said that all children were innocent. So they were saying I was an innocent sinner? How does that work out?
I generally don’t mind religious people. What I do mind is when they tell me that I am damned because I do not believe what they do. I don’t tell them they are stupid because they believe in an invisible man who messes with all our lives. Their belief is completely up to them. Mine is up to me. They preach tolerance of those who are different but only in certain cases. Tolerance in moderation it seems. I think of tolerance as an ultimatum. You either are or you aren’t. End of story.
Too bad all this falls on atheist ears…
Religious groups don’t want their believers to suddenly question, at least in my country (Israel) all the great rabbis don’t allow internet,tv and about any other source that could expose their community to the “filthy” outerworld…
Thank god(lol) they are only 10% of population, but soon enough they will grow alot because every religious family has atleast 8 kids…
Let’s not talk about how they DON’T WORK and live from governmental supply. These stupid people have tons of kids and live from other citizens money with poor life quality standarts.
How can this happen? every election they have about 20% of votes that go to their parties, so any other major party has to lick some ass to get a fucking coalition.
This is what pisses me off!
I know this will likely get lost in all the rest of the comments, but thank you so much for writing this. It does mean a lot.
As an Agnostic (and an Anarchist), I’d like to respond to this by saying, STOP YOUR GODDAMN BITCHING! Just like you, everyone has a choice in whatever they believe. You live in a country that was founded on Christian values, and your pissed that Christians are in the majority? The pledge of allegiance does say “One Nation Under God”, because that was what the founders believed. Just like you want your elected officials to have the same values that you believe in, so does the rest of this “great” nation. I understand that you feel oppressed by this, and the fact that soldiers are being threatened for being Atheist is wrong, but religious oppression comes with the territory of having (any kind of) belief system, and soldiers always find some reason (I know because I know A LOT of soldiers) to terrorize each other. You talk about not generalizing the term fundamentalist, but you throughout this entire blog entry, have put all religious people (especially Christians) into a box marked “Oppressors”. I’m not trying to attack you specifically, I’m honestly tired of hearing the majority of Atheists that I know and have read/heard complaining about how religion is making the world a shitty place. Its not religion that makes the world shitty, its people, and not just religious people, but all people. Feel free to respond by email or any other means you see fit. I’d love to continue my explanation, and hear what you have to retort with.
Fantastic piece. I completely agree with everything you’ve said. Don’t ever let believers put you down for being angry. Your anger is a gift.
I sometimes wonder: if we as a species abandoned the notion of “god” would people’s behavior change, our would we just find other rationalizations for all those awful things we do? Is religion the cause, our just the excuse?
Posted by: Mike Damn | April 02, 2011 at 09:44 PM
“Under God” was first added to the pledge in 1948.
The bill to add it officially was only passed in 1954. Its a relic of the same era in which Joe McCarthy was ruining people’s lives in order to keep his voters from noticing that he was a philandering drunk with a distinct lack of ethics.
In other words the main militating factor was the cold war – not any special piety on the part of Washington and co.
Your anti-ideas ideology ignores the fact that it is through people not adopting STFU that social change happens.
Your answer to Martin Luther King would have been the same, heck your argument would have been equally valid against abolitionists. The founding fathers did after all, own slaves.
The US has moved on since then, and in a lot of ways gotten better. This is because people complained and did something about their complaints.
It took effort to achieve the standards of behaviour and living you so cheapen today.
You proclaim yourself an anarchist but this is merely a label to be worn on a T-Shirt. Your advocacy for apathy supports unjust governmental and social structures rather than seeking to tear them down.
Very, very tasty.
Well said!
Hey i’m an athiest… not angry though.
Hope you feel better soon!
Truth and reality can sometimes be an angry thing – but Al – you HAVE to keep truckin’.It’s people like you keep us on track!
wow you are totally obsessed….
I would say the same thing if your article were about weight loss, or celebrities, etc etc—you’ve clearly had some bad experiences with religion
This is quite a good post, though i am Christian, try to hear me out. I am not disagreeing/arguing with anything said, I actually agree with it. Todays religious people, *especially* Christians, are way too intolerable and hating to others who think differently then them. Maybe its just me but i thought we were supposed to love everyone, despite anything they believe in, instead of hating people who don’t believe exactly how they think things should go, or people who are “sinful” like “gays” (I really don’t see whats so wrong about being gay anyway, it doesn’t seem wrong to me..). WE, the Christians, are making others angry and hateful toward us, we need to stop the hatefulness.. Also, the lack of knowledge almost sickens me. As odd as it would sound, there is a bigger percentage of “non-Christians” who have read the bible then Christians themselves, do some believe that just because were Christians, it doesn’t matter what else we do? or are we all just lazy? It has gotten sad sense we don’t need to look very far to find another “one of us”, we think we don’t need to know much and we’ll just be bliss with ignorance… But that pretty much sums up everything i have to say..
I get angry when Christians insist that their third or fourth hand version of religion is the ‘correct one’ and those three or four other older religions Christianity is copied from are ‘false’ religions.
All I can say is WOW, I love this… Thank you 🙂
Well said, Greta Christina. I cannot disagree with any of what you have written. These religious fundamentalist and bigotted politicians have flouted the American Constitution and hi-jacked the secularism of the nation to replace it with religious fanaticism and discrimination by lies damned lies and corruption. As a Brit, I feel that your Republicans have destroyed what a wonderfully fair system your nation had since the earliest days. RR was befuddled and the two Bushes corrupt cheats.
I just hope that the damage they did will soon be put right. Good luck to you all. Best wishes from England.
Hi Greta! Thank you so much for taking the time to reflect all of these life thingies that I, too, have come to understand. A good portion of your thoughts overlap my own. A friend had shared these with me. And now, I share them with my friends. Many best wishes.
I’m Christian, and I’m genuinly sorry for all the ways the religion gets misused. I agree that you have every right to your anger. If we can’t get angry when people are treated unfairly, there’s something wrong with humanity. Thanks for the honesty in your post.
oh yeah forgot to mention this to anybody who is pro abortion, you were once a former fetus, thank your mother for giving you life.
Life is precious and a miracle. God bless everyone here!!! 🙂
You really need to open your eyes dear friend instead of being so self centered and full of hatred for folks who have beliefs in anything or anyone. Talk about being prejudice…..YOU ARE PROMOTING THE VERY SAME THING YOU CLAIM YOU AND ALL THE OTHER GLBT COMMUNITY IS SUFFERING FROM.
“we are being persecuted, feel sorry for us, wah wah, wah, we are shoving our beliefs (same sex is normal, (EWWWWW)down your throat and you have to accept them, wah wah wah, we demand to be treated equally, wah wah wah, we want benefits (um, you have them if you work, just sign up and check off single plan duh!)BUT you DEMAND more” and yet YOU CLAIM CHRISTIANS DO THE SAME THING. WE DON’T HAVE PRIDE PARADES AND DISPLAY it for all to see. We don’t go knocking on doors telling you to join the church (only JWs do that), the church and Christians realize that the Lord gave everyone free will. We don’t DEMAND to have the little boxes on all legal forms changed to the wording Christian partners, we accept everyone for who they are, we love the sinner but do NOT, I repeat DO NOT (neither does JESUS) accept their sinful actions which is what the GLBT community is promoting.
So get your head out of the sand and research the truth. IT is out there. God bless.
These things anger people of the whole spectrum of theisms, philosophies, and religions.
You’re right that the “not all believers are like that” argument doesn’t make everything “okay.” It does, however, show that there is hope for more people from both sides of the aisle to take this stance and create a world where neither theists nor atheists feel that the other need be eliminated for the reign of ignorance to be ended.
The way I see it, religion (or any belief, for that matter) in and of itself is a neutral element; it is how one implements that belief that gives it a positive or negative impact.
WOW! I just finished reading the whole article and the first few comments that followed. The author articulated her anger and views appropriately, I’m not surprised but I’m very impressed : ) I agreed with her anger towards how religious organizations put fear towards children who think LITERALLY and have nasty images of hellfire if they don’t do what they’re told by adults they trust.
I was one of those children in the past and I was even too afraid to mention it to my father at the time who’s wife had past away and he asked me to go to the nearby church just so I could have someone to help me with my grief. My father was quite elderly so I don’t think he knew about the services at the CLSC (Quebec’s youth clinics) that probably would’ve helped me much better than the church…
That was another point that the writer was angry about, how religious leaders are not required to take courses or training on counselling but everyone recommends that if they need personal help to go see them first…
The way I see it, religion (or any belief, for that matter) in and of itself is a neutral element;
I disagree. As Greta has pointed out many times on here, it matters whether or not the things you believe in are true. For example, I believe universal health care is a good thing because it has been empirically shown to raise the standard of living in many countries, coupled with the evidence that the alternative (private insurance companies) is a disaster for millions of people.
Also, I believe the theory of evolution because of the mountains of data and factual evidence that back it up, as well as the fact that, were I so inclined, I could test the theory myself and arrive at the same conclusions as those before me. This is a belief rooted in truth.
Beliefs in things that are fundamentally untrue and un-testable are, however benign, still a negative influence and just serve to weaken the credibility of both an individual and a society that shares that belief.
M: What Casimir said. By promoting wilful blindness and wishful thinking, pretty much all religions do measurable harm. It’s small in some cases, but it’s present and non-zero.
David | April 04, 2011 at 07:02 AM:
“if you are just as intolerant”? I do not know of any influential atheists who argue that Christians should not be citizens, that they deserve eternal torment, and so forth, as so many Christians argue ought to be done to atheists.
There are Christians who terrorize doctors, who protect child rapists from the law, and who argue that nine-year-old rape victims pregnant with twins ought to be required to attempt completion of said pregnancy – at substantial risk to life. Much of this is done on theological grounds. There is no equivalent extremism among atheists today. Therefor your equivalence is false.
Atheism is not claim about “the only right way”. It is only recognition of the facts that (a) There is no evidence for “god” or equivalent thereof. (b) There is much evidence against many attributes assigned to “god”. (c) Nearly all definitions of “god” are so fraught with conflicting attributes as to be unintelligible. There is no work that atheists promote as describing the one true way to live.
Recognition of the fact (as near as is determinable) that there is no ultimate power is also recognition of the fact that no one can have ultimate wisdom. We are subject to the numerous cognitive limits and weaknesses of our human brains. Human frailties will always limit our ability to know to the best way. We can use science to conduct an evidence-based search for ways to improve how we live, how we treat others, and how to best pursue human well-being, but science never brings perfect certainty; Newton’s theory of gravity was shown to be just slightly wrong in a few ways; it could not explain Mercury’s orbit without postulating another body between Mercury and the Sun. Then Einstein proposed general relativity. The need for a body between the Sun and Mercury disappeared. Einstein’s theory describes gravity better than Newton’s did, and so progress was made. But Einstein’s theory is not certainty either; although some of its predictions have been measured to be correct to less than one part in a thousand trillion trillion (10^27), it conflicts with quantum chromodynamics in several ways. One of the two theories is ever so slightly wrong.
Recognition that there is no ultimate power is also recognition that we cannot know any ultimate right way; our knowledge will forever be imperfect as there is no perfect source of knowledge.
Thank you for this article! It was a great read and I agree completely. Although I don’t live in the states I live in Canada which is pretty much the same…just colder. Anyways where I live people call this place the “Bible Belt” its so hard to be an atheist here.My parents threatened to kick me out once they realized after years of trying to talk to them about this, that Atheism wasn’t a “phase” for me. I was forced to go to church and every church event in hopes my mind would sway but even when i asked my teachers or preacher about some religious stuff (such as the trinity) they couldn’t come up with an answer. I love this article and thank you so much for writing it. I hope to go on and show people this article in hopes they will realize their close mindedness or at least be willing to talk about it.
Thank you again.
A page right from Audre Lorde. This was a really nice post!
Come to Iowa-You can get married here-so far. Unless the Fundamentalists get their way and a whole bunch on angry old people!
Fuck you, you suck. Not anger, just statement of fact. Using about as much evidence in my post as you use in your blog. At least religious people spend their time worshipping their gods rather than spend their time being angry at the people who worship gods. Get a life you bunch of cocksmugglin turkey gobblers.
Someone said earlier that they couldn’t believe that atheists were treated as described in the rant. Well, don’t believe it because it isn’t true. The only reason atheists think it is true is because they are so self-centered, they can’t pull their head out of their asses long enough to realize they are smelling their own bullshit. The idea of religion is to try and make this life about something more than yourself…not all religious people succeed, but atheists sure as shit don’t succeed. And since their lives are centered around none other than themselves, of course they believe they are persecuted. If you sneeze in their direction it is because you disapprove of their beliefs. Have fun trying to wipe out religion from the earth. I do know of one sacred text that predicts a bunch of assholes trying to do that. I really like the part that comes after that too. Call me a hypocrite or whatever the hell you want, but I know my beliefs and I at least try to follow up on them. You can take the actions of a few christians and generalize to all religions and christians, but so far every atheist I’ve met has been a sheer asshole. I mean 100%. Never fails. So for every atheist that is not an asshole sorry, but you are so few and far between that I have not had the pleasure of meeting you yet. I’m an asshole and I know it, but I also have tons of religious friends who are great people. I like how all these dickless atheists finally found a voice with such a shitty device as the internet. So basically we can put your opinions as being as important as free porn. Get a life, get laid, where a condom some your dumbass won’t have to get an abortion, since killing an unborn baby is ok, but killing a man in war is not. That’s not being a hypocrite. By the way, that’s the dumbest freakin thing I’ve every seen. Atheists criticize religious people for whatever made up bullshit they can imagine that links religion to violence, but then say its ok to have an abortion. Don’t kill adults, but kill unborn babies. That is something a total pussy would say. So, in addition to all atheists being assholes, I have now concluded that all atheists are pussies too. Get a life, burn in hell or disappear in a void after death, either way stay the fuck away from me or I will punch you in your damn vagina. Your pussy’s so old you queef mummy dust. Your pussy is so old somone found an expired twinky up there. Your pussy is so old it produced the nephilim in Genesis. Your pussy is so old it has stalagmites. Your pussy is so old dicks think they are traveling back to the future.
Someone said earlier that they couldn’t believe that atheists were treated as described in the rant. Well, don’t believe it because it isn’t true.
Well I do believe it because Greta provided links to the bulk of her claims, while you are just wanking into a sock.
The only reason atheists think it is true is because they are so self-centered, they can’t pull their head out of their asses long enough to realize they are smelling their own bullshit.
Aww did the widdle bigot just put up unsubstantiated his bullshit? I think he did.
The idea of religion is to try and make this life about something more than yourself…not all religious people succeed, but atheists sure as shit don’t succeed.
Explain then why organically atheist societies tend to be better in terms of social equality.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0814797148/ref=nosim?tag=lukeprogcom-20
And since their lives are centered around none other than themselves, of course they believe they are persecuted. If you sneeze in their direction it is because you disapprove of their beliefs.
Funny how people sneezing isn’t one of the complaints on the list.
Have fun trying to wipe out religion from the earth. I do know of one sacred text that predicts a bunch of assholes trying to do that. I really like the part that comes after that too.
So, wait, we are EVIL because we want to end religion, and here you are actively hoping for the end of times in which the opposing viewpoint is supposed to be tortured in an eternal lake of fire.
Call me a hypocrite or whatever the hell you want, but I know my beliefs and I at least try to follow up on them.
I don’t think you’re a hypocrit, I think you’re a douche, but a hypocrite? That implies you don’t try to follow your ideals, you just spout them to look good. Whatever you are trying to achieve here, it isn’t looking good.
You can take the actions of a few christians and generalize to all religions and christians, but so far every atheist I’ve met has been a sheer asshole.
Considering that you figure the end of the world and eternal torture of your opponents is a good thing above, I am not surprised people treat you like a complete dick. Its a bit like a member of the KKK asking why black people are so aggressive.
Read up on some religion that isn’t your own some day, you will find that a lot of them include the concept that you get what you give.
So for every atheist that is not an asshole sorry, but you are so few and far between that I have not had the pleasure of meeting you yet. I’m an asshole and I know it, but I also have tons of religious friends who are great people.
And that is why you are posting here, on a blog by a bisexual atheist pro-sex feminist about what shitty people atheists are.
Because you have so many great friends.
I like how all these dickless atheists finally found a voice with such a shitty device as the internet.
And I bet you wonder why all those women won’t go out with a nice guy(TM) like you.
So basically we can put your opinions as being as important as free porn.
Are you bawwing about getting repeatedly pwned in arguments where people can check your facts online?
Get a life, get laid, where a condom some your dumbass won’t have to get an abortion, since killing an unborn baby is ok, but killing a man in war is not.
You do realise that the places in America with the highest abortion rates (Along with teen pregnancies) are religious states don’t you?
That is something a total pussy would say. So, in addition to all atheists being assholes, I have now concluded that all atheists are pussies too. Get a life, burn in hell or disappear in a void after death, either way stay the fuck away from me or I will punch you in your damn vagina. Your pussy’s so old you queef mummy dust. Your pussy is so old somone found an expired twinky up there. Your pussy is so old it produced the nephilim in Genesis. Your pussy is so old it has stalagmites. Your pussy is so old dicks think they are traveling back to the future.
As a straight guy I have to wonder what you have against pussy. I mean, its okay that you so clearly prefer anus and dick that’s your business, but why all of this hostility to vaginas?
Thank you for this. I think it’s a pretty comprehensive roundup, and I’ll be pointing to this point whenever someone asks me the question.
Bruce Gorton you are a total fag. Keep trying to piss of said dude for posting on this piece of shit site. I am sure hit intention AS WELL AS MINE are just to troll all the fucking douches like you we can. Go cry into your cum cup you fag. Keep trying to convince yourself you are straight when you accuse a man who obviously is not into old nasty bisexual skank atheist poon. Have fun fucking mummy dust fag. Reply all you want to this, but you will always be the cocksuckin fag that will rot in hell, and if I am there with you I will punch you in your ovaries, lil bitch.
Posted by: pussy-lover, atheist-hater | April 20, 2011 at 03:28 PM
Aww, did the widdle mysogonist not like it when I pointed out how much his argument sucked.
Again, I ask you, what have you got against pussy?
pussy-lover, atheist-hater | April 20, 2011 at 03:28 PM
As to fag – well lets just say I support Anonymous.
As to you though, pathetic. Shit even the internet rejects you. You are all of one Anon with three socks that you can’t even successfully vary.
What, was /b/ too scary for you, or did it just laugh at your plan to troll random a blog post from 2007?
I see many thoughtful comments on this article. I only have one, that’s simple and short.
I’m angry too. For all of the reasons you stated, and quite possibly all of the ones you did not, as well as some of my own.
I don’t think you are really angry. I just think you are terribly smart, an excellent communicator and dead right! Keep up the good work!
we have all witnessed the overwhelming tyranny of judgement. So how do we end the cycle? Be a light unto the darkness and curse it not. In this all will see that there is only light. I don’t care what you believe. I know that Love is the only way to heal the world, and that every man answers to the reverberations of his own deeds.
You’re awesome! 🙂
Oh noes! The Evul Reelijus Rite R gonna make it so I can’t kill my unborn child, have anal sex with my neighbor, and scorn their centuries-old culture! Whatever shall we do?
JD | April 26, 2011 at 02:32 PM:
How clever of you to belittle and mis-represent people who wish to do with their own bodies as they choose, and not as chosen by selfish, sexist, and homophobic theocrats.What will you do next, belittle and mis-represent people who object to child abuse?
Thank you so much for this.
honey badger don’t care
This is amazing– sharing and bookmarking for future reference. =)
JD’s comment reminds me of Pat Robertson’s famous quote: “Feminism […] encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.â
Once you do a little interpolation (leave their abusive husbands, kill their barely developed fetal children, become lesbians instead of staying in the closet, etc.), they all sound like wonderful things!
This is a great post but I don’t think you are angry enough. Unless I missed it, I didn’t see anything in here about the environment, and how religious people are actively harming it, and preventing those who desperately want to protect it from doing their work. You might want to consider revising your post to include a reference to that as well.
I’m glad I stuck in there. It’s a very long read, but I don’t blame you for that; this battle of intolerence isn’t something that can be written in 200 words, it would take 200 thousand, probaly more.
As a satanist, I agree with you on most of your points, no, I agree on all of your points, what I don’t agree on is the atheist theology, but I would never hold that against someone so wise. I’m angry too, I’m angry along with you, I might even be more agnry than you. You are called “intolerant” I am called “evil” when neither statement is true. It makes my blood boil when I still hear the “holy” argue why same sex couples shouldn’t get married, or have other rights such as adoption. It infuriates me when their only arguements contain no fact, but are in reality just spewing sensless lies; how holy of them!
It makes me angry as well when my own flesh and blood tells me I need to hold my tounge when I speak against certain religions. Can you blame me? People assume I sacrifice virgins and drink chicken blood for fucks sake! Sacrifice is extremeist bullshit. How can they call me “evil” “sinner” or “unholy” after everything THEIR religion has done. “It’s in the past” they say, bullshit! There are plenty of people who “in the name of God” (by the way, what gives them the right to do anything in God’s name?) would wound or even kill a homosexual, and even more would if they were not afraid of the punishment.
This blog makes me mad. Not at you, not at all. It makes me mad because I live in this world, mad taht I will one day raise a child in this world, and mad that it has taken so long for people to speak up and will take longer for there to be results. Battles have been won, this is true, but the war on intolerence and seperation of church and state still continues.
I wish you the best, and hope that in the future you will not have to be so angry anymore
Yours Truly,
Nylus
Well-written, well-said. And the comparison to white people getting defensive when a black person talks about racism is spot on. It’s easy to get defensive, to say “well I’m spiritual and that isn’t MY voice/opinion/action/etc.” But doing… that misses the point entirely, as you said.
People of religious and spiritual inclinations need to take a long hard look at themselves, at their institutions, at their peers. They need to speak out and act out against immoral behavior, always. They need to wrest their institutions from the hands of those who behave irrationally, immorally, and prejudicially. We are all human. No one individual is perfect, let alone organizations, affiliations, blah blah. So there’s no excuse to sit back and let things happen.
I see it as the same reason to vote, the same reason to stay politically informed, the same reason to sign petitions, to go to protests, to donate to causes you believe are just, it goes on and on. Take responsibility for your life. Don’t just sit there and say that because you are not perpetrating the injustices that you bear no responsibility for them. As Americans, we ALL bear some responsibility for things our government does, even things we voted against. As you said: “No, I didn’t vote for him, but he was still my President.” So no, I didn’t elect the boards of the various Jewish organizations I can choose to be affiliated with, but I will damn well speak out if I see them doing or saying something wrong. I am pursing a career in spiritual leadership for just that reason: so I have a say.
The problem with anger is that it tends to make a person quite unreasonable. It is a special type of cynicism that views the absolute worst 1% of any institute and insists that the 1% represents the full character of the entire ideology. All racism and holocaust begins in this precise manner.
T.S. Dunn, saying that anger is bad because racists and holocaust-ers (lolidk) use it is like saying that kitchen knives are bad because someone might use them to kill someone.
Or that the written word is bad because some people use it to spread hate speech.
Racism and genocide come from ignorance and fear, not anger.
And, if you’ll pardon me double-posting (because this came to me literally after I hit ‘post’), by pointing out racism and holocaust as proof that anger is bad, you are doing what you say angry people are doing and are viewing the absolute worst 1% and insisting that 1% represents the full character of the tool.
Greta, this article is amazing. I’m agnostic, but I agree with everything you’ve said. I think it’s ridiculous homosexuals can’t marry, and are looked down upon, and I find it crazy that atheists are looked down upon by christains just because they don’t believe in god. I know what it feels like to have that happens when one speaks ones beliefs to a christain that “disregards” their religion.
I wish I could have written this. I loved reading every word of it.
I know this was posted over 3 years ago… but I just wanted to say I agree with every single point you’ve brought up. I know I’m unable to articulate things very well, especially in defense of myself when angry over-the-top, hard-headed religious fanatics are in my face. It feels like by writing this, you’ve given me (and I’m sure many other atheists) a voice. It’s because of rants like this that I can sit content with my beliefs despite overwhelming opposition.
I am so happy to BE an Atheist. My anger stems from what I believe is the inevitable destruction of our planet by misguided, and erroneous logic and behavior by believers. They can not believe the damage to the Earth away. And they will continue to destroy the world as a self fulfilling prophecy until it actually happens. They can, and will rationalize unbelievable evils unless they are stopped. It is our duty as Atheists to put right what they have wronged at our own individual peril every day of our lives. It is only we who have any chance of positively influencing the future; simply because we refuse to believe fairy tales and will work to promote the truth. Or die trying.
Wow! Just found this blog, and love what I just read, because I, TOO, AM ANGRY! Thank you
If anger is so great and powerful then why do we always wind up in the same place? Ghandi was never angry and he managed to change India. He said “There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no cause that I am prepared to kill for.” It sounds like you have endured some trauma in your life and that has left you fairly angry. Can you see that anger ever turning to happiness without the whole world just agreeing to your demands? So it seems that your chances for peace and happiness through this path of anger are pretty slim. Your power is not in your anger but in your ability to love and create positivity around you. Enough love, especially for yourself and those people you find most annoying, will transform your life and the circumstances which currently hinder you.
Whoops – Gandhi. I think he might have said “I don’t care if your government says that I am not married because I know that I am.” and he would have had a beautiful wedding and invited all his friends to witness it. That would be a very powerful action. Anger would only destroy the power of an action like that.
Posted by: Roy | May 04, 2011 at 07:14 AM
âI have learned through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy,even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power that can move the world.â
That’s your never angry Ghandi.
That Ghandi was a pacifist does not mean he didn’t feel anger – he just viewed violence as ineffective in doing anything about the things that made him angry.
Posted by: Roy | May 04, 2011 at 07:37 AM
You do know that there are various tax benefits to being married don’t you Roy? Things such as estate duties for example, or donations (tax free between spouses)?
The right to marry is not some emotional thing – it is a legal issue that unlocks many other rights and benefits which gay people are unjustly denied.
As a straight male atheist I find it disgusting that I can get married if I so choose to whom I would choose, but gay people can’t mainly because preachers feel it treads on their religious toes.
I still wonder why so many people view “anger” as synonymous with “violence” ….
maybe they ought to figure out why they do that before chastising people for being angry
Nice. So this blog is only for people who whole heartedly agree with your world view and the things that you write. Isn’t that fundamentalism? And with yourself as the authority? Einstein said that insanity was repeating the same thing and expecting different results. My bet is that you will die angry if you don’t try something different.
A friend posted this as a link in FB. I share your rage. Those of us who have abandoned religion and the nonsensical notion of Judeo-Christian God and religion, have been discriminated against and have had it justified, despite the fact the founding fathers themselves were deist, skeptics. Write on!
Just read this and really think…(“i am too honest”)…why the hell be so angry? Just live your life, the way YOU want to live, and be happy! Who cares what others think…it’s only you and the ones you love that matter. Do with them what makes life great! Good Luck!
I’m angry that my piano teacher told my mother he had to reduce his number of students to cut back on stress and I was doing well learning on my own so he wouldn’t have to tell his congregation that he associates with a transsexual.
I’m angry that my English teacher told me I’m going to Hell for being a man.
I’m angry that everyone I tried to go to for that, conveniently, goes to the same Church as him and took his side.
I’m angry that my grandmother used God as an excuse to try and break up my parents’ marriage.
I am going to say something in this comment that will make you not want to read the rest of it. “I am a Christian.”
You still reading?
Okay good. I also wanted to say that, though I disagree about somethings you said, naturally, I also agree with you a surprising amount.
I am also friggin’ pissed about religions and how they have treated people that choose to be skeptical of their world. I am furious that we can’t just take a second to listen to what you guys have to say. I am angry that I just referred to atheists as “you guys” when we are all humans and have thoughts and beliefs. I am mad that I was raised that way, to believe that you guys are the enemies. You aren’t. We aren’t. Everyone is, to each other, in the way they act and how they contribute to the offending majority. I have beliefs that may be frowned upon by my fellow Christians because they are loose, and open to science and other’s opinions. My religion in general is frowned upon by a million other religions and beliefs. I like to listen to what others have to say. I am not going to revoke my faith in Christ, but I have got to say, you make a pretty good point, and I feel like I have learnt something about your perspective, and how I can work to change my corner of the world.
Thanks.
admittingly, a healty rant, but to me you seem to be fighting fire with fire
What happens when a God ceases to exist? People suddenly need to hold themselves accountable for their own actions. I think that’s why the ‘believers’ are so scared of us. Because we, unlike them, have made a conscious decision to believe in ourselves instead.
Thank you for voicing not only your own anger of everything that’s wrong with the world because of superstition, ignorance and fear, Greta. I’m grateful for people like you.
Fuck, yeah, monumental post!
Go fuck yourself…atheists need to grow up. Atheism has been around for millenniums so don’t think you are some new-age, revolutionary. You too are a religion and will be treated like one. Your self-righteousness is as aimless as all the rest of the religions.
In my opinion (although I, sometimes, let it get me) there’s nothing to be angry about.. people will do as they please whether I’m angry or not; it’s just that you don’t have to compromise with their methods/actions/beliefs. It’s not easy, I guess, yet slowly and steady these dogmas lose ground.
I am angry at all of those things too…and I am a Christian.
Awesome, simply awesome!
I would like you to know that you have offended me as a Catholic. Although I don’t believe in your viewpoint I do believe that you are entitled to it. The thing that offended me was your use of the word goddamn. I was wondering why you have used that word even though you do not believe a Deity. I would love an intelligent conversation with you if you would oblige.
Thanks,
-Paul
You are the reason why I hate atheists even though my religious beliefs strongly constitute atheism.
Honestly I don’t even know where to start with a person so misguided as yourself, let’s just start with the irony of you of a human being trying to force people from thinking “there is a God watching over us” to “You are your own God watching over yourself” which is inevitably our future and congratulations! You figured it out before many others did, now in your remaining years, WHY DON’T YOU PUSH YOUR BELIEFS ON THE REST OF A HAPPY WORLD (even though we progress towards an advanced civilization capable of creating life inevitably portraying the characteristics of a God therefore making Creationism possible especially on a planet that we have no history for). You have not evolved far enough on this planet to realize the truth of reality, clearly you are misguided by your over-average intellect which has led you to a delusional roadblock, this made me laugh for a good 2 minutes:
“I’m angry at the believers who put decals on their cars with a Faith fish eating a Darwin fish… and who think that’s clever, who think that religious faith really should triumph over science and evidence.”
I love the fact you saved the image as “Jesus_fish_eating_darwin_fish”, the irony of being a writer is too funny, goes to show how badly they stuffed religion down your throat growing up, Thank God I wasn’t that unfortunate. I’m sorry but being taunted by the image of God defeating your religious beliefs is hilarious, kudos to the troll Catholics who pulled that one off, man that’s good… what’s even more funny is the atheists that it pissed off. Now literally there is no hope for fixing your religious mentality, whatever it may be, but nonetheless I’ll take a few stabs at your terribly formatted argument, maybe knock some sense into you:
1. Why atheists are angry;
Why are atheists angry? I would never expect a non-religious believer to argue such psychological hardships (religious-like no?) to be the problem behind atheism. Hey I love to smoke weed, it’s illegal, but I don’t waste half a month creating some overdrawn conclusion to why pot should be legal… mainly because I have a life, not a drug problem, but it’s just an example… I mean if YOU feel so confident about the truth of atheism, YOU must be right about everything…
2. Why our anger is valid, valuable, and necessary;
Hmmm let’s think here, you clearly have it ‘all figured out’ by the sounds of it, the whole argument had me hanging on by the thread… except the fact I am not angry, I do not associate myself with you as an atheist nor have I ever felt angry at a Christian, they are stupid and naive – I find this funny and amusing, like you, except your intelligence is way more embarrassing to publicly humiliate than that of a fictional deity.
And 3. Why it’s completely f**ked-up to try to take our anger away from us.
Yes… those Christians are after your anger! They want you all to be HAPPY all the time, those fucking bastards… screw the world for ever creating a fairy-tale, having Santa Clause bring toys to every child on Christmas, but most importantly SCREW GOD FOR POSSIBLY EXISTING, NOTHING GETS ME MORE ANGRY THAN KNOWING PEOPLE BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT DOESN’T EXIST, ESPECIALLY WHEN I KNOW I WILL NEVER SEE IT NOR DOES IT HARM OR BOTHER ME IN ANYWAY.. GRRRRRRRRR
I’m going to tell you straight off the bat what is wrong with you and 90% of atheists that strongly pledge their commitment: You think that Christians/Catholics/Muslims/etc are all wasting time BELIEVING – something we all use to cherish and push on our kind (especially as children, the golden age) – BELIEF – something that has taken us through every dimension of life. Science, Math, Psychology, Quantum Physics, no matter how intelligent you want to be or choose to be it does not change the fact that we are only drawing conclusions, conclusions that will lead us to the very state of God-like entities which our fellow Christian brothers and sisters respectively believe in, you are a fool for saying the things that you said. If a Christian/Catholic person ever feels the need to harm others or themselves it will be because someone like you depicted there religious faith so horribly.
LASTLY, to shut you up COMPLETELY because you are as dumb as the rest of the world that your puny mind sits and judges (hence your choice of literature to vent):
-Quoted right from your f**king page
“Atheism is just another religion. And you’re just as close-minded/ faith-based as the believers you criticize.”
YOUR REPLY (HOW STUPID CAN YOU REALLY BE?!?!):
No, it isn’t. And no, I’m not.
It simply isn’t the case that atheists are 100% convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is no God.
———————————–
GOD THAT SOUNDED RELIGIOUS… So let’s do some role playing, lets pretend that I’m an Alien from another planet with technology that can determine the REAL answer to this
———————————–
James: Hello Earthlings, I am pleased to meet you all and am trying to grasp the concept of this argument, so one last time can you sum up Christianity or Religion, whatever you call this human behavior?
Greta: They believe in tradition, spirits, good faith, bad faith, all this bull that constitutes towards some universal faith that everyone at the time must have all decided was a good idea to create a rulebook for like in which an entity in the Sky who watches over them?
James: OH like the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Greta: (hahahaha) Yes exactly!
James: So they believe in some sort of some cosmic entity that decided for it’s entire existence to watch over life that it created or adopted?
Greta: YA! HOW RETARDED IS THAT?!!? PEOPLE ARE LOSING THEIR MINDS AND THEY HAVE NO IDEA!
James: Ya I gotta say, that is pretty out there… rather creative though, now tell me about Atheism
Greta: Atheism is the rejection of belief that God, Gods, or Deities exist.
James: Okay, understandable but how did YOU come to exist?
Greta: Through the process of evolution and the Big Bang theory. Prebiotic synthesis of macromolecules, RNA/DNA composure, when the first cells evolved, Photosynthesis, Aerobic respiration, and Multicellularity.
James: I see… so everything was once darkness until matter attracted itself together, creating a burst of energy that created all life slowly by the mere process of evolution, thus life created itself. Fascinating and brilliant.
Greta: Exactly! Science is the answer to existence, everything can be explained from Science!
James: Wow! Sounds like Science is really helpful to your society! I mean, it’s a lot more complicated than what would be considered Science on our planet but it’s more of an art, kind of just making stuff up to explain common occurrences. Sounds exciting here! Very technical and those big words sure do make them look smart.
Greta: haha, Science is boring? That would be a challenge here on Earth! So Mr. Alien, who is right? The Atheists or Religion?
James: Oh my, yes I almost forgot the original topic, this has blown so out of context, I would just like to see the proof.
Greta: Proof?
James: Yes, like the evidence that clearly validates truth behind one and not the other.
Greta: We have never encountered another Entity!
James: Computers didn’t exist 3 decade ago and you almost have fully developed Artificial Intelligence!
Greta: YA We are geniuses, we know… We totally created AI..
James: You created life?
Greta: No.. They act like real life
James: what’s the difference?
Greta: HA. don’t be silly
James: Sure, and my home planet has never encountered a human, does that mean I’ll be insane telling them that you exist?
Greta: Well God no… that is different… It’s been over 4 billion years and no one has evidence!
James: I would consider the Bible as evidence since no one alive today knows if it was fake or real.
Greta: Can’t believe everything you read 😉
James: Well I am alien to this planet and based on my technology, personal appearance, and spiritual mentality, it is possible that I could be God isn’t it?
Greta: hahahaha…Well you wouldn’t commit to say such a silly thing
James: God loves everyone equally and is upset when his people sin, he is all seeing and all knowing… I am under the impression that your planet has utilized technology and created some powerful tools but it is very lowly developed compared to my Planet – I could retrieve such advanced technology and return here to Earth and act as your implication of God, my society has been alive for over 6 billion years and I believe we have all the right technology to orchestrate this idea of “God” therefore making the idea of God possible and even more so intriguing.
Greta: Yeah you can do all of that if you choose but that’s only because I told you everything about Gods… So why would you waste your time oh great species?
James: You would believe it was true if I acted as a God would you not?
Greta: Yes… technically, I guess…
James: So you are making me God?
Greta: NO… YOU ARE MY EQUAL…
James: On the contrary, not really.
Greta: What makes you better?!?
James: 6 billion years of research.
Greta: You haven’t been alive that long…
James: My species has. none the less, I am way too complicated for someone as underdeveloped as yourself should try to understand, what about the Bible?
Greta: blasphemy! children’s stories!
James: Seems like a lot of trouble to keep a lie going for so long…
Greta: That’s what they want! Religion has no truth!
James: Why are you so upset? If it has no truth you should not be offended, plus these values are very accurate to the global perspective of humanity, you have murderers here killing your own people, wars raged amongst countr-…
Greta: BESIDES the existence of Gods! Such creatures could NEVER exist in this VAST, HUGE, DIMENSIONAL UNIVERSE! It is impossible – SCIENCE WOULD HAVE ALREADY FIGURED IT OUT!
James: Well how far have you explored the Universe?
Greta: We have ALREADY traveled to the Moon and Mars!
James: THE MOONAMARS OF A1689-zD1?!!?!?!?!?!? Not even the spiritual Mayans of the Universe have had such an opportunity.
Greta: What? A1689-What? It sounds like you are just making things up.
James: On the contrary I am not, you don’t mean the Moon and Mars!?
Greta: Ya, you see the moon in the Sky there?
James: I think we’re done here…
Greta: What?!? That didn’t answer my question at all! THIS URGENCY MUST BE DEALT WITH.
James: Here–you might need to read this, it’ll cheer you up! Good luck (hands Greta the bible)
Greta: YOU ARE A FOOL YOURSELF!
James: God I hope your next generation does a better job than this one… This planet is a mess!
THE EFF-ING END – STOP ARGUING A TRUTH BASED ON DISBELIEF, STOP FIGHTING BELIEF – A message to atheists everywhere.
Posted by: James Morgan | May 14, 2011 at 08:02 PM
You are the reason why I hate atheists even though my religious beliefs strongly constitute atheism.
Honestly I don’t even know where to start with a person so misguided as yourself, let’s just start with the irony of you of a human being trying to force people from thinking “there is a God watching over us” to “You are your own God watching over yourself” which is inevitably our future and congratulations! You figured it out before many others did, now in your remaining years, WHY DON’T YOU PUSH YOUR BELIEFS ON THE REST OF A HAPPY WORLD (even though we progress towards an advanced civilization capable of creating life inevitably portraying the characteristics of a God therefore making Creationism possible especially on a planet that we have no history for). You have not evolved far enough on this planet to realize the truth of reality, clearly you are misguided by your over-average intellect which has led you to a delusional roadblock, this made me laugh for a good 2 minutes:
A lack of brevity is not a sign of depth or the rightness of your own ideas.
It is however, a sign of wanking.
That whole section of your rant could well be summed up as “You’re a stupid head and I don’t like you.”
Most of your post is nothing more than you talking up what a great guy you are because you don’t do jack shit about anything.
You are such a great guy that if you had them, you’d be too busy jacking off to yourself to defend your kids from getting raped – or did you miss the bit about how Greta is angry about peadophile priests?
I love this, I want to memorize every word. I get asked the anger question often when I get on a feminist rant and I’m so tired of the question I just shut up, but now I have new fuel and a new resolve to let my anger work for me.
lol…. wait, lol.. Bruce, you need help little guy, how do you age 20 years but your brain stays at 02? it’s interesting, it’s okay little guy, I understand that being a telecommunication professional that you MUST be a genius, there must be pedophile priests everywhere.. those poor young children who willingly let themselves get raped… oh how i feel sorrow for them, they are so unfortunate to let there assholes get tarnished by a protector that they can easily defend themselves from but they puss out and get raped.. ITS FOR THE CHILDREN, THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN! BEING RAPED BY PRIESTS!! wow buddy you need help if that was the first comment you went to lmao, try personal messaging me on Facebook next time you get the peanut gallery together to defend your angry atheist community, have some fucking balls you little bitch and post a real link to yourself… I am not bothering with you, at-least Greta has a brain.. all you have is a sense of humor my friend.. and a very weak one lol… that’s okay buddy, your youth is up and you are frustrated, I understand… BUT SAVE THOSE POOR KIDS FROM GETTING RAPED CAUSE GOD KNOWS THEY CAN’T DO IT THEMSELVES… Bruce you are a little bitch, I eat niggas like you for breakfast, no strength, basis, or a shred of intellect on your shoulder.. you dumb ignorant fuck.. there’s a reason why I got a little link under my name and you don’t – It’s called balls, clearly what you lack – defending your angry atheist girlfriend by studying this really bad piece of writing… how many views does this have? awww… 20,000 maybe? I’ve made YouTube videos with more basis than this shit, this is why you, “Bruce Gorton” can shove your lack of cultural understanding up your ass with the priests you seem to love so dearly.. OUT OF ALL THE FUCKING POINTS YOU BROUGHT UP.. YOU THOUGHT THAT ONE WOULD MAKE A GOOD DEFENSE? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL I can’t wait till all you baby boomers die out, your killing this world, terribly killing it… HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA rape!?! seriously?! that was the one point you brought up?!!?!
Thanks for pointing out I’m a great guy but no my post was not about me being a great guy – your just a dumb fuck who skimmed the last portion and tried to fit in by making your Charlie Brown comment that no one cares or defends because you are just a spec of shit on a bigger plane of shit much like how you want to get your shit rammed… children getting raped? lmao… I’m sorry but I have no reason to defend myself to you, your just a 40 year old moron who has waited to long to evolve.. hence why you are so upset right now
rofl who cares
Thank you so much. This is exactly what I’ve wanted to say to every single one of my “religious friends” when they ask me why I’m so cynical. And why I used to be much happier as a Christian. The only answer I can think to give them is “ignorance is bliss”. Thank you for sharing and thank you for being one of the few people in the world to know exactly what they stand for and why, in a completely thoughtful and intelligent way. I applaud you.
This was a great post. A friend of mine posted a link to Facebook. I’m so glad I read it. Thank you. (^_^)
I need atheist friends!!!
I feel the same way but I am surrounded by christians. not all of them are at all bad but I feel so alone all the time. I have one friend that is right there with me but she lives so far away!!
Great job! I enjoyed it very much and I loved the addendum to the cookie cutter responses atheists ALWAYS get when they speak out in anger against anything religious.
I will bookmark and share liberally. Have a nice day. 🙂
~Dayna
Thank you!
I’m a first-time reader of your site, but this post was all I needed to convince me to subscribe. Nice work.
I am a theist and still would agree with you on almost every point you make. There are some where I feel it would help to have more than just a brief statement and instead a somewhat detailed analysis, but all in all I feel just like you about many things you write. Here, though, is a thing that makes me angry as a theist: I am angry about atheists trying to conflate all kind of faith and religiosity into one convenient caricature. Differences in opinion should not stop us from conversing about our experiences of and ideas about reality. (No worries, I LOVE science. I have a PhD in biology and am currently writing my dissertation in theology.)
You are awesome.
Wow, you are angry! I am not sure how that helps anyone. I am largely angry about the same things and yet I arrive there as a person of faith. My concern is that your anger and self-righteousness discourages thoughtful discourse between us because you use broad strokes in your prejudice toward people of faith. I am sad that you make assertions like 45% of people in the US would not vote for an atheist without recognizing that 45% of people in the US would not vote for anyone who is not a republican and will find any excuse not to, I am sad that you say 50% of people reject evolution in favor of creationism without referring to any source to demonstrate such a ridiculous claim. I am discouraged when people right off people of faith as unintelligent while rejecting the vast contributions to the world by intelligent people of faith. I am particularly saddened when anyone, person of faith or not, rejects intelligent investigation of the truth through science and intellect in order to hang on to their fundamentalism. Fundamentalism, whether in a person of faith or in the atheist, is a most unattractive attribute and serves only to shut down genuine conversation.
so, take your anger and embrace it, and maybe some day you will discover that such self -serving and self-righteous anger does not serve anyone but your own ego.
People of faith can and do show anger to every instance that you have cited here. It seems to be your judgment that, because they did not let their anger shake their faith (or even their hope) that something better must surely exist, they must be somehow inferior to you. If that is what gets you through the day- good for you.
The arrogance that supposed, that if we cannot explain it, it must not be true (Stephen Hawking) serves only to shut down genuine intellectual curiosity. In mind those people are no better than the ones who are satisfied to let the bible answer matters of science that it was never intended to address- creationists.
Anger will not get you anywhere fast..
Wow, it appears there is no room in your blog comments for a reasoned response from someone who respectfully disagrees. Yet, you left a few ridiculous postings by fundamentalists. I am sure this will allow you to rant at them and draw cheers from your fan club. I thought this would be a forum for intelligent conversation. Clearly you do not want that. So, you might as well delete this comment too.
The world really needs more intelligent people like yourself. I’m only 16 and I can sympathize with your frustrations. While I am personally an atheist, I’m not going to discredit other people’s beliefs because the truth is there is not one human being on this entire planet that knows for absolutely certain that there is a deity (deities). No one is going to know for sure until they die, so it is pointless arguing about it while still living. Religion brings some people hope and happiness, so let them have it as long as they aren’t running around shouting “Turn or burn!” or being total bigots. Can’t we all just get along?
Thank you for giving me something to show people when the ask me “what do you have against religion? Why are you so angry all the time?”
THANK YOU
that is just great,I love it.
I couldn’t have stated every bit of this better!
Thank you for putting it all into words. You are amazing and you’re blog has helped me to get back into the fight.
I loved the post, but I would definitely reiterate that not all atheists are great. I’m an atheist, but brought up Christian by my mother. I’ve heard idiocies pronounced on both sides of the proverbial table. I really enjoyed your post though – well-informed anger, for once!
Wow!
Well said.
I don’t watch Oprah but others do here and I can tell I feel sick with her constant god crap and her ‘heart’ as well as her constant making herself to be so damned good.
So you’re angry that people are human.
I’m angry because we still live in the ‘middle ages’ but they call it the ‘modern times’.
Speaking as someone who only has “attaboy” (attagirl? attaperson? Iunno which is the most politically apropos. Whichever you like most! Sorry for PC diversion here but) to say…
thank you very much for writing this. I’m bookmarking it, I’m bookmarking your replies to it because it works as a concise rebuttal to the various arguments (though by that point it’s not argument, the person of faith’s just talking past you at that point I always feel).
Anyways, take care.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Gandhi_Juhu_May1944.jpg
TL;DR:
Angry atheist dyke rages on people who disagree with her because she hasn’t had some of that good dick in a long time.
“I’m angry that I have to know more about their fucking religion than the believers do. I get angry when believers say things about the tenets and texts of their religion that are flatly untrue, and I have to correct them on it.”
Um… no you don’t. This is a self-imposed anger.
Greta:
A well-thought-out, ANGRY post. I feel as though you mined my ANGRY, gay, atheist head for inspiration!
Hi GC!!
A 60 year-old recovering catholic here. Love the article and the rest of your blog. Thank you!
George
Wonderful blog post, thank you for this.
@ Wall of Text critically hits | May 22, 2011 at 10:10 AM:
It is difficult to imagine a more ridiculous fallacy than to project your own sexual needs and sexual standards onto someone else, and then proceed to reject their arguments on such grounds.
Posted by: James Morgan | May 15, 2011 at 09:31 AM
James, I got you number perfectly and you know it. The only thing profound about you is the depth to which you will sink.
Above, the author says that in 1961 all atheists were guaranteed the right to serve on juries, testify in court, and hold public office. I hate to be a naysayer, and I only do this because as an atheist and political science major, holding an elected office is very much so a possibility for me: The North Carolina State Constitution says in Article VI Section VII that the first disqualification is denying belief in an almighty god.
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Legislation/constitution/article6.html
Thank you.
I’m not an atheist. I just don’t care about religion much. If there IS a god and he/she/it judges us on basis of our faith and not our actions, then fuck him/her/it. Especially because he/she/it isn’t really helpful in providing us with any real basis for faith and why it should be so important.
So I’m not an atheist. I don’t deny the possibility of existence of a god or gods or any kind of divine or otherworldly being.
I do agree with your anger however. Too many people use some dude/chick/thing (of whom we’re not even sure he/she/it exists or what he/she/it wants – as shown by a multitude of contradicting religious texts) as an excuse to be fucking evil.
So thank you for your anger. It is the same as mine.
I’m sorry you are so angry!
“So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love?” –MLK, 1963 Letter from Birmingham Jail
I am not an oppressed person in any sense of the word. Thus, you may disregard my input if you wish. That being said, I am unpersuaded that anger is the driving force behind social justice–unless we accept justice itself to be simply another item on the “shopping list.”
Prior to our experience of suffering, I believe there is an innate sense about what is good, which is the true motivator of justice movements. I cannot prove this. It’s just the way I feel–part of my faith.
That’s an ontological question. After that comes the pragmatic question about how best to bring the good into being without simultaneously causing more suffering in the world….
Thank you for putting so eloquently the things I have been trying to express for years î
Thank you Greta. You have no idea how much your post means to me. You’ve managed to verbalize exactly how I feel. Thank you.
I take comfort in the fact that the fastest growing demographic in the Western world is “non-affiliated”. Religion is dying in the west. Time is on our side.
Our descendants will read our words and wonder just what the fuck the issue was.
Rationalism will have finally triumphed when the question, “Do you believe in god” no longer makes any sense.
“Do you believe in Enkidu? Huh? What?
Another angry atheist,
Dan
Try to be careful not to lump religions together. I see this a lot. Your rant about prayer is a perfect example. I’m sure there are people out there who tell kids they don’t have enough faith to be healed or that God doesn’t love them enough, but this is not a Christian teaching. Maybe you know the difference, but many of your readers don’t, and it might paint a false picture of Christianity. None of the ideas about prayer you presented are biblical. Christians get angry along with the atheist when people tell kid’s that God doesn’t love them enough to heal them. Aside from the obvious evil, it distorts a central Biblical message: that God’s love for us is NOT based on performance (Romans 5:6-8). I know you said the things you were angry about weren’t universal to all religious beliefs, but the way you’ve generalized “people of faith” makes it seem like this is an accusation against Christianity. Many of your points follow this same pattern. I know it’s probably hard to care about differences when you are convinced all religions are wrong, but it’s tiresome the hear atheists repeat the same false information all aver the web. So many atheist rants against Christianity would be dissolved with a basic understanding of the scriptures. You’d still find plenty to be angry about, but you wouldn’t perpetuate the same mistakes the way Hitchens and Dawkins have . Thanks for taking the time to read this 🙂
You expressed very eloquently what I have felt since youth. I try to dismiss religion as a hobby knowing full well that it’s not. It’s very serious business. Everything you point out deserves our anger.
Well done!
How come nobody has commented since 2007?
you are my hero <3
I missed the “next comments” part, that’s why I thought comments stopped in 2007. Duh!
I just came across this piece, and I’m blown away. I feel like you articulated many of the things I’ve never been able to articulate. I quite recently got into a conversation with a few Christians about the credibility of the Bible, and ultimately I was blasted for being ignorant and narrow-minded. I’m a college student, and it is remarkable the amount of persecution that I face for my atheism. Shockingly few people are willing to entertain any kind of intellectual discourse about religion (and don’t even get me started about the classism that occurs at a private institution like mine). I was told by this apparent biblical expert that “it is obvious that part X of the Bible needs to be read with literary lens Y. If you can’t understand that, why are you even bothering to try to get an Ivy League-comparable education?” I felt a kind of outrage at this comment that seemed to take over my whole body, and yet, I couldn’t think of an adequate response. I don’t know if I ever will. I’m starting to choose not to step into religious conversations because I always leave feeling misunderstood, looked down upon, and physically sick. And yet I know that I am least as decent of a person as all of these aggressive Christians were – and I would be willing to bet that my sense of moral right and wrong is much more sophisticated and reliable. I’m not even trying to be arrogant – I’m just proud of myself for being a person who has arrived at that point in my life where I think critically and question the world around me. But apparently I’m going to hell for that sin.
I just wanted to thank you again for this extremely well-written and engaging piece. I, for one, take a fuck ton of solace in the fact that there are intelligent people who agree with me, and who do not plan to raise their children as blindly religious children, and who wouldn’t look down upon me for doing the same with mine.
Awesome…. You Rock! The Truth will reveal itself… It’s inevitable..
^This. Just… This.^
Don’t forget court sanctioned AA!
tl;dr angry lesbian is angry
You. Are. Amazing.
Thank you. Please keep writing.
Hi,
I am a Muslim, but I feel your pain.
I am angry that Islam is a scientific religion,actually endorsing research, yet Muslim in general are illiterate.
I am angry that many other Muslims mix up tribal beliefs and Quran, with things like multiple wives and stoning. (not good things)
I am angry that I am associated with 9/11 and terrorism.
I hate airports now, getting double searched.
I am embarrassed to understand the Bible more than the “devout” Christians.
I hate that I want to go into politics, but will probably be treated with as much crap, if not more, than an atheist politician.
I hate that I want to join the military, but they might not let me. If they let me, they may insult me because some soldiers may believe I share the same faith as the enemy.
I hate how I can’t own a gun without people feeling uncomfortable.
I hate how this post is probably monitored by the NSA, CIA, FBI, etc.
I am not an atheist, but I promise you would never receive crap from me. I am pro-evolution, stem cells, abortion and pregnancy prevention, gay marriage, and for that matter, equality.
But they won’t let me run for president.
I am not atheist, nor do I belong to any organized religious group…but, am a believer of free will, possibilities, and of the idea of a state of “being” beyond the constrants of this body and mind.
That said, I truly feel for you and your anger. To be judged and transgressed by the very people who “preach” peace…laugh, laugh, is so disheartening. I acknowledge your feelings as a fellow human being and hope and “pray” that our species evolves enough to honor and appreciate everyone’s choices.
I’m pretty much an agnostic atheist, but I can’t even tell my family and some friends because they freak out on me, as if I’m being wrong. It annoys the hell out of me. The first amendment allows people to be religious (Christian), but I have to repress how I truly feel because it’s not right. It pisses me off so much.
This is fantastic. I am a straight white male, but I am also an atheist and while I am too young to have fought for civil rights for women or people of colour I really believe that in 50 years time people will look back at how we treat homosexuals today in the same way we look back at segregated water fountains. With disgust and shame. And religion is slowing down this progress to equal rights for all people, no exceptions.
I am torn between sharing something that I really, truly, deeply believe is necessary and losing some friendships and possibly a relationship.
I am an angry atheist and I believe that this is right. I think that atheists everywhere have plenty of reasons to be very very angry indeed (as described in this article).
Religion and faith poison and have absolutley no redeeming qualities that could not be accomplished via reason or basic human decency, yet when
this is voiced we are accused of being monsters, heathens or inhuman. We’re asked why we have to be so aggressive and confrontational all the
time even though we are actively discriminated against and witness countless atrocities comitted in the name of faith, but if we speak up we are
told to just sit down and take it. This makes me angry yet as I stated, if I dare to bring this up I am in danger of losing friendships and relationships.
Faith is a bad thing. People with faith believe something to be true despite either lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary, this is not a
virtue, this is childish, magical, wishful thinking with no basis in reality. People should not base their lives on a hunch while rejecting
reason and evidence. God lives in the gaps of our understanding, In the beginning we knew nothing, so god controlled and was directly responsible
for everything that happened. As we learned more about the world and the universe,it became unnecessary to invoke god to explain things for which
we already had explanations based on observation and evidence, and so god gets pushed to the as yet unexplained parts of the universe. But
nothing is unknowable and those gaps are shrinking. This is why god has gone from living at the top of a mountain, to living in the sky, to living
in some ethereal otherworld or unknowable dimension. as we have explored the world and found no evidence for or trace of any gods, they continue
to hide in the ever shrinking gaps in our knowledge, conveniently moving as we learn more about our universe.
I don’t believe we all have to generally come to the consensus in anger or be angry about any of it; but we can use them as motivation,I don’t believe church should hold any say in political matters of our country, or really anything outside of their own religion.But I’d like for us to come to that conclusion peacefully,This is a newer time and day,and anger isn’t the way to handle things anymore in an age where apathy is accepted as the commonplace for most people, We have to cure the world’s apathy before we can get anywhere near its brain. And frankly,I don’t have the cure for apathy.
Fantastic. So pleased I live in the UK. The stuff that is happening in the US makes me feel sick (and angry), keep strong.
Seems kinda stressful to be such an angry atheist. Smoke a joint! Jah!!
It is a sincere comfort knowing you’re promoting these messages as potently as you are. Please keep up the good work.
Most of the things you are presenting against Christians here are against those who claim to be Christian but probably don’t know Christ. Jesus teaches Love, forgiveness and humility. Of all the Catholic Church comments, you are right, it is unacceptable but who am I to judge. If there is no God, then everything seems to be relative to every person.
Jesus loves, and thats all you need to know. If you want to know the real Jesus and those who follow him, look at their lives and see how they live. Yes, we all mess up and are all sinners, but you can tell who lives for Christ and who doesn’t.
Jesus loves you.
Amazing
Thanks, Greta. Thanks for being bold and brave. In my own personal experience, it was much harder to look someone in the face and tell them I didn’t believe then to face off with someone of another religion when I was a “believer.” Even my family still gets upset with me even though they are generally accepting. I still haven’t told my boyfriend who is catholic and bought me a diamond cross necklace for Christmas. I live half in and half out of the closet with my atheism. I’m worried that his family won’t accept me if they find out. He’s going to propose soon, and I’m worried that he’ll want us to get married in a church. I’m also worried that I will hurt him and his family when I ultimately refuse to. I wish I could have your courage and conviction to more openly be myself… especially to the person I love. Thanks for being angry about injustice and oppression. It means the world to me.
As a Christian, a lot of this angers me, too. But I’m one of those odd Christians that tends to be more open minded and accepting/respectful of other peoples beliefs. I also encourage my son to think for himself. I have explained what I believe, but have told him to make up his own mind. If he has a question I answer has honestly as possible. I just don’t get unaccepting, closed minded fools. They miss out on a lot in life!
I’m angry that religious people are always saying how God created us all and he loves us all, then they say that you are to burn in Hell if you are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or if you don’t believe in God. I’m also angry that in songs and stories and shows, and basically everything, they say “God bless” or “God loves you” ,or any variation of that, without consideration for people who don’t believe in God, or people who are of another religion. I’m angry that I can’t even bear to say the Pledge of Alligience because it pisses me off that it says “under God” as if we all believe and worship Him. And I’m mad that I can’t even tell my own father that I am Atheist because he is a Quaker and refuses to believe God does not exist. He got angry when I tried to explain that one of my friends was Agnostic, so how would he feel about Atheism?
@HMB You probably come across so many angry lesbians because you are an ignorant prick. Educate yourself before you discuss something which you obviously know nothing about. Discrimination against lesbians is much worse than it is against gay men. Much of that is due to the patriarchal and misogynist culture we live in. Read a book then perhaps all the lesbians you run into won’t be so angry anymore, because they won’t have to deal with uneducated crap like what you have just spouted.
As an atheist, I share your desire for change yet not your anger.
I respect spiritual leaders like the Dali Lama, who despite sharing *some* of the same problems as atheist (persecution, etc) chose to hold their ground with a compassionate heart.
Still, good post.
I don’t know you, but I love you! You’re an amazing human being, Greta! I found this piece while “stumbling” on the Atheist/Agnostic setting at “www.stumbleupon.com”. Please keep up the good work!
Right now I see faith as fossil fuel
going green can take time.jobs will be lost ,new ones created.Some get it
quicker than others.some never change
.Angry,yes, hopeful? Absolutely .
I really like this article especially after reading the ‘Why are atheists so angry?’ article in the Huff post. It makes me realise how bad things must be in the US. But I get angry myself when people use enormity to mean big when it means evil. It’s better applied to Falwell than the universe.
My friend shared this blog article with me, and I’m glad she did. About a year ago everything finally clicked and I realized that there was no god, no heaven, and no hell, just people (it wasn’t an glorious epiphany, more like the gradual understanding that there is no santa claus, only your parents.)
Also, Brad, you really didn’t understand this article did you? You seem like a nice enough bloke so I will chalk your comment up to…”missing the entire point…”.
First off, you did exactly what pisses her (and many atheists) off by saying “No, that’s not the REAL meaning of Christian”. So, all the other billions of Christians are wrong, and you, and the select few that share your viewpoints are right? Woah… stop the presses.
Next you go on to “clean up the bible” (Oh no, this is really how God meant it…). Also, if a husband takes care of every wives needs, then why would she need to submit to him? Seems a lot like he has submitted to her. Regardless, why should I have to obey someone who was simply born with a penis? We are all human, and SCIENCE is actually finding less and less differences with how male and female brains act, meaning we simply act human, regardless of gender.
Not sorry for seeming brash; I believe it’s warranted when you are attacking my rights as a female and a person.
As we say down under, bloody oath. All of these and more!
get a stress ball already
This is probably the single best collection of the things that most irritate atheists. Thank you.
We need more people like you speaking up. I was told to not be so vocal about the injustices of religion and religious folks but it is getting out of hand. For one I don’t understand how America (GOD’S NATION) is for war or taking land that was already occupied by other people. Manifest Destiny oh that’s right.
What are us athiests trying to accomplish? Our goal is to enlighten those who are being told lies just to make them moral. You don’t need an ancient book to tell you things that are taught in a gradeschool. Keep your hands to yourself, don’t steal and share. Treat others how you want to be treated. You don’t need a beam of light to come down and tell you these things. So when there are people using old ideologies and expecting to get new results to me that is boarderline insanity. I am so tired of war, segregation, hatred, racisim, prejudice yet you find it all throughout the bible.
Perfect example of religion ruining a good thing. The tower of Babel. Everyone was working together, speaking the same language and the bible indicates they wanted to be closer to god. How is this a bad goal? By “god” causing confusion which the bible says “god is not the author of confusion” he starts the beginning of misunderstandings and schisms. So instead of having an entire world in one language and one mind and one accord he scatters them abroad with different languages. It makes no sense yet all you have to say is I have faith in what doesn’t make sense and that makes it make sense..lol
I love your article, I love your point of view, and most of all I love you for saying it, and for saying it so eloquently. Angry people might not always make the most friends but the world needs more of us anyway.
Thank you.
Breath…for Christ’s sake breath.
WOW! Good points all! I love this and totally agree with you!!
I have a bumper sticker that sums it all up:
I will try being NICER if you will try being SMARTER
Well said.
I was raised catholic, for 14 years of my life, living in Mexico (110% of its population is catholic). Once I moved to the States, I encountered myself with all these different ideas, and options to explore about where the world comes from, how things work. And I started questioning. Religion was not for me. It deprives of humanity certain groups of people. I decided that religion was not for me after getting myself immersed in the studies of why the Holocaust happened, and why perfectly “good Christians” forgot about their God when it came to taking their neighbors homes and possessions. They forget about their god when it comes to criticizing mercilessly immigrants, gays, atheists, etc, etc. I am not angry, as much as I am disappointed.
Very first rule of the Internet: you mad, you lose. And baby, you mad. And I’m sure this post will be suppressed because you’re not actually about fosterin discussion so much as you feel indomitably correct, and that’s not for anyone to say is incorrect, but you too clearly live in the united states and so I fin your ability to complain about injustice laughable.
Your military information is bull! I am an atheist and I spent 22 years in the military. Not once did I witness any of your claims about the military. I suspect, that after seeing more than half of this information as trivial, I would say you made up 3/4 or more of the information over all and twisted much of it if it were not made up. So, I would be angry that someone can see through your stupid rant! Come on! Atheists are smart and able to mechanically weave their way through life. You on the other hand sound like a confused religious nut job who has a serious coping problem. Quite possibly Bi-polar and a small winky. I can see why your angry!
Posted by: Bobby | July 27, 2011 at 07:53 PM
Greta sourced her claims.
I loved this and agree with you! I hope that, since it’s 2011 right now, that you were able to marry the woman you love, and I hope the best for you! Us atheists are angry because we have been treated unfairly, and we shouldn’t shut up, and be “respectful” of faith, they don’t get special status just because they are religious, you don’t see political parties saying “You should respect what we believe and keep your mouths shut!” It would get us no where if we didn’t speak our minds. Atheists are a growing population, and I believe there are a lot more Atheists out there than they claim to be based on the fear of speaking out against the threats of hell fire and all that garbage. I think more of America truly is Atheist but they are living in fear of oppression. It’s hard for me to accept that the majority of people deny the truth and accept faith and argue it’s evidence, because faith is a complete lack of evidence. To even argue that there is evidence means you do not have faith, and since the basis of religion is faith, it just goes to show that they are very very uneducated and brainwashed. We don’t know where we are going to go after death, but we can relish in knowing that there is no such thing as hell, and even that there is no heaven. I hate the idea of heaven, it sounds horrible. The reason we appreciate so many things in life is because we are able to compare suffering to happiness. If we were in a constant state of perfection, we would lose the appreciation for the good things because we would lose our perception of what pain and suffering feels like. Heaven would SUCK!
This was wonderfully written and obviously very well thought out. It made me angry. In a good way. Thank you.
Perhaps our ‘anger’ is really ‘self-defense. Why, with each hateful and bigoted word spoken by a rabid and pious god-believer is it any wonder we are apprehensive and in complete 100% self-defense mode? Religious ‘authorities’ use their positions to accumulate Power, Wealth, and Sexual Gratification. Thank you Prophet Warren Jeffs for showing the entire world how all three (3) can be accomplished using your godly position.
Just Brilliant!
I think it is funny how part of your name is Christina… meaning “Christ Follower”. 🙂 Ever thought about changing it?
I’ve come here by some…Internet miracle, LOL, but I have to say this is an awesome post and I thank you for writing (and posting) it!
Two tidbits of my own:
(1) One of my “faves” was being called “unbeliever” by my own not-very-churchgoing-mother, and told that I should really start going to church. (I was over 20 at that time and an atheist – which she knew very well)
(2) I simply adore when people tell me (or I read or hear that someplace) how atheism is a “religion/belief in the non-existance of God”. I mean, WTF? And I get that very often here where I live (one smallish European country). And when I try to explain that atheism is NOT religion but the exact opposite, I get told (better yet, shouted at) that I’m intolerant (!) and annoying and could we (atheists) please understand that this country has 90% of Christian believers for population and the Church should be included everywhere in every aspect.
Excuse me for my own rant here, hopefully it’s readable.
I’m definitely going to check out your blog!
I’m a pro-life atheist, so what makes ME angry is the fact that I’m always lumped together with pro-abortion feminazis and the like. As atheists we rely on science, which proves that life begins at conception, as well as that this life is all we have, so life is that much more precious. I can’t fathom why more atheists are not pro-life.
EDIT for the previous comment:
it should be “…90% Catholic…” instead of “Christian”.
@Amy:
Because having a child even if you can’t take care of it (for various reasons, be it age, money, family situation, education/career…) is not the solution. Yes, even career, because, at least where I live, a pregnant woman/mother usually means a jobless woman. And, unfortunately, birth control is, contrary to popular opinion, not 100$ successful.
Believe me, if you haven’t been hungry while struggling to complete your education on air alone, you don’t know what it’s like to be absolutely terrified of even an idea of bringing a new life into the hell of your own. (this is just one of examples, one I’ve been through, and I know others in similar situations).
So, yes, life is precious. Children are precious. Does life start at conception? – it’s a matter of definition of life (and that’s an ongoing debate, as far as I know). Would I bring a child into a life of powerty and/or family & social chaos? – not if I can help it, because that would be the most selfish thing to do.
sigh.
100% not 100$
it’s too late to do this.
Amy,
Science actually tells us that life begins billions of years ago, probably in a scummy tide pool.
That sounds facetious, but it’s actually an accurate representation of the facts. The fundamental unit of life is the cell – a working cell is alive, and anything else is not. And before conception, the germ cells are already alive. In no sense is life “beginning” either at conception or at birth.
Anyway, no one actually holds life, per se, as an overwhelming moral priority, or they would never eat food or use antibacterial soap.
The moral issue with abortion is not life, but people. Everyone kills life all the time (wheat, bacteria, spiders, etc.), but killing a person is murder, or at least homicide – in any case, morally fraught. And a person is definitely beginning somewhere in the human reproduction cycle – but “person” isn’t biological terminology. So, to decide whether I approve of abortion, I think about what the difference is between things I’d call “people” and things I wouldn’t call by that name, and use that to decide when preventing a birth should be called homicide.
I’m not actually trying to argue for either position on the abortion issue here (though I do have a position.) I’m just trying to be the voice of science.
Amy, life began a few billion years before conception. While the whole business of meiosis and fusion to make a zygote is a special and distinct part of the animal life cycle, it’s not magic.
I just can’t get excited about an embryo. It has a good chance to become a person, but at the moment it’s a small lump of tissue growth.
As I like to say, it is laudable to donate an organ to preserve the life of another, but it’s not mandatory. A person may freely choose to not do so for personal reasons and while I may have opinions, I’m not entitled to force them on someone else.
This applies to a uterus the same as a kidney.
When there’s consensus support for on a law mandating blood donation, I’ll reexamine the uterus issue.
You sure are angry. 🙂 Good post, a little pedantic and overlong, but fun to read nevertheless.
Personally, my anger at the religious right has faded over the years. I have learned that believers literally think differently than a non-believer. Np matter how logical the argument, the believer has an emotional connection to their religion/God and logic cannot pry them away.
First and foremost, humans are feeling and emotional creatures and thinking/logical creatures second. An athiest lives in the thinking part of the brain where an beleiver lives in the meotional part.
Communication is impossible, therefore. Not that we should stop trying, but “militant” atheism (ha!) becomes suspiciously similar to fundamentalist Christianity when you look at it objectively.
At the end of the day, none of us get out of life alive. Neither the believer or the atheist has any sacred surety that their beliefs, or lack thereof, are true.
BinaryBiker: First of all, it is possible to pry someone away from that. It can’t be done quickly, but I hardly expect someone to make such a critical decision in a moment.
The persistent “atheist evangelists” actually do have a number of people that they’ve persuaded. AronRa has received apologies from people he used to be fighting about creationism, and I’ve seen multiple postings from people who said The God Delusion convinced them.
While I am generally happy to let someone live their own life, it becomes a problem when their crazy beliefs lead to crazy actions. “Your right to swing your arm ends at my nose” and all that.
While I agree that “militant” atheism is a form of religious evangelism (“the practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs”), I’m trying to see the similarity to fundamentalism (“strict adherence to specific theological doctrines”).
The single defining characteristic of atheism (lack of belief in gods) is not a doctrine and atheists are generally quite clear about the fact that sufficient evidence could prove them wrong.
Indeed nobody has sacred surety, but it’s ridiculous to suppose that there is no difference between an idea which is uncertain but well-supported by evidence (e.g. hurricane Irene is going to smack North Carolina’s Outer Banks around midnight Saturday), and an idea which is also uncertain but defies available evidence (Irene will dissipate before then and not go anywhere).
I’m sorry but saying that “nobody knows anything for sure, so there’s no point trying to decide anything” is terrible logic.
I don’t find the civil rights causes and other examples used as justification for anger to be consistent with the goals forwarded by atheists. Most of these examples are cases of securing greater rights/equality for a group, while atheists are primarily concerned with restricting the rights of a world view that conflicts with their own.
http://reasyn.blogspot.com/2011/08/ire-of-athiests.html
I am someone who was Christian in my childhood, become an atheist, and then a theist but not adhering to any particular religion.
All I have to say is that the big group will always persecute the smaller group. Atheists have done this too, just look up state atheism.
However, its simply less common because atheists make up a much smaller demographic and are rarely in power.
I have no doubt if the majority of the US was atheist, that the religious would have a stigma attached that was just as bad.
@ J. Wesley:
Uh. Exactly what rights am I primarily concerned with restricting? I really ought to know already, of course, since it’s my primary concern, but somehow I’ve missed it. The essay you link does not seem to explain.
@ R.Bauer
By all means then, please explain exactly how you propose to secure more rights or equality for atheists. Is there a way to do that which doesn’t require limiting the Constitutional rights of another?
http://reasyn.blogspot.com/2011/08/tactics-for-cause.html
Posted by: J.Wesley | August 28, 2011 at 09:54 AM
Dishonesty is a trait very common to Christians I find.
The US, particularly on a state level has preferential legal treatment for religion. First amendment protections are often not properly enforced.
For example – Alabama creches. What was happening was Alabama went through a series of child deaths at creches, because those creches were essentially unsafe.
So regulation got introduced – however these regulation do not apply to creches run by religious organisations. It is a very common thing – for a law to be introduced for good reason with specifically religious exemptions.
Consider labour law and discriminatory employment. Religions are 100% allowed to descriminate against people in their hiring practices.
An infamous example of this is the Creation museum, where even the janitor has to be a Creationist Christian.
It is one thing to claim to have seperation of Church and State, but in cases such as Damon Fowler, where he asserted such a seperation and was hounded and harrassed for doing so such seperation isn’t terribly real.
Particularly in science education. The vast majority of Biology teachers in the US, fearing reprisals from religious parents (And there have been cases of teachers being fired for being atheists, such as Richard Mullens) are reluctant to teach evolution as fully as the curiculum requires.
You claim to be all about making sense, but what I find startlingly common with those who make such claims, is that you are pleasuring your own ego.
You do not do the legwork, you do not research your position or even find informed sources for your position before trying to sound reasonable simply by adopting a centrist stance.
You eject reason in an attempt to sound reasonable.
@Bruce Gordon
I’m no Christian, but then it is always easy to characterize any dissenting views as wholly in opposition.
Talk about dishonest. http://www.secular.org/issues/childcare
First, you will notice that this is a case of a SECULAR childcare center INTENTIONALLY skirting the law. Second, where, exactly, in this is the lack of First Amendment enforcement? Not providing equal opportunities for childcare aid, would be prohibitive of the free exercise of religion. Atheists can even take the same advantages, if they so wish. http://firstchurchofatheism.com/
Labor law, really? Would you have a young Earth creationist in a scientific advisory position? Someone specifically antithetical to the goals of that position? The difference is that a young Earth creationist would have to have the necessary degrees to be hired. IOW, bona fides of qualification. Since the only such for religion is what a person professes, the strictures are actually lesser, as the person has only to lie rather than proving any proof.
Also, in many cases, there is an obvious conflict of interests in an atheist working in a religiously oriented position.
There is a difference between enforcing the separation of church and state and restricting the First Amendment rights of the MAJORITY in a DEMOCRACY.
Thank you for voicing not only your own anger of everything that’s wrong with the world because of superstition, ignorance and fear, Greta. I’m grateful for people like you.
Posted by: J.Wesley | August 28, 2011 at 12:27 PM
Read what I wrote again – I wasn’t talking about specific instances in action but in the way the law itself is worded.
Ahem:
By giving creches run by religious organisations preferential treatment they made a law respecting the establishment of religion. The law should apply equally whether the establishment is a secular one, or is run by a church.
I wouldn’t reject him from working at a university at all in positions in which his Young Earth creationism wasn’t relevant.
In which case it isn’t the YE Creationism that got them rejected from getting the job now is it? It is the lack of relevant qualifications, not their beliefs.
Note the example I gave – of having to profess belief to get a job as a janitor.
For a lot of us, lying is more onerous than earning those degrees.
Degrees cost years of studying – years which provide knowledge and skills in a field you should be interested in if you are going after that job. Lying costs one’s integrity, without gaining much in return.
And plus – here’s your prior claim on your blogpost:
Where the creed isn’t important to the job – such as with that janitor – religious groups are in practice exempted from those laws.
That isn’t even the dumbest feature considering how you seem to think that getting shot at, and killing people didn’t much effect those Vietnam vets, but those hippies, by gawd the hippies…
Such as if the atheist in question is applying for a job as a janitor?
There is a difference between equal application of the law and restricting people’s rights. Particularly when those rights conflict with other people’s rights.
Further you seem to be of the opinion that the major push by the atheist movement right now is legal as opposed to social change. That is not the case.
The law can be changed as much as anybody likes and if social change isn’t brought about it will make little to no difference. The law still has to be enforced.
In the civil rights era the KKK was engaging in acts which were frankly illegal at the time. It didn’t make much difference that those acts were illegal because they were socially accepted in the areas the KKK was active.
It is that social acceptance that the atheist movement seeks to overturn. While death threats are illegal the law can’t arrest the whole town where Damon Fowler was being subjected to them.
The law can’t stop anything unless the base behaviour involved is more generally viewed as intolerable. People are more likely to tolerate the abuse of invisible minorities than those that stand up.
This is the point to the “Out Campaign.” This is the point to atheists blogging, this is the point to atheist activism, this is the point to engaging in frank and open debate.
Sure we might be seen as jerks, but we are being seen, which as sociological experiments show is one heck of a lot better than being some alien other it is “safe” to hate.
Posted by: Bruce Gorton | August 28, 2011 at 11:51 PM
Parents have the right to sign a waiver a liability on behalf of their child, and I’d assume these religiously oriented childcare facilities require one. In which case, such a waiver is simply opting out of the state oversight. Where you may not like that state funds go to aid such childcare expenses, this actually saves state oversight cost, as compared to those same facilities being secular. Aside from the aforementioned prohibitive cost to those wishing to exercise such a choice if aid wasn’t provided across the board.
Just the opposite. This ensures church/state separation by allowing the religious viable options. Would you prefer them to introduce religious education into secular childcare?
Ahem:
Thus if the cost of such an option is unduly prohibitive the government would be effecting the “exercise thereof”.
Please, just because people can easily play CYA, doesn’t prove that YEC wouldn’t have a major impact on hiring, regardless of degree. You live in a very rosy world if you think it doesn’t.
So you expect me to believe that a janitor can only find work which is in direct conflict with his world view, and he’d be morally opposed to lying to attain the return of a job, but he’d be perfectly fine with working to facilitate a world view he opposes? Really? Nonsense.
If a janitor needs and can only find work with the opposition to his overall world view, he is more than likely either desperate enough that a verbal lie wouldn’t outweigh the lie in the action of working to facilitate such, or he’s specifically there to undermine the opposing world view. In either case, these solve themselves at things stand. If he’s that desperate, he’ll lie without a second thought, and if he’d be interested in undermining, professing to a belief is the very least safeguard for that organization.
So, you’d have the entirety of unimportant positions in universities held by YECs. I suppose you wouldn’t expect that to have any detrimental effects on the teaching staff, being so thoroughly surrounded.
Oh wait:
Seems you would expect allowing many of an opposing world view to have a detrimental effect.
I didn’t comment at all about the rigors of war (thus no implied comparison), and it really doesn’t matter since the point I made was that anger works in cases of actually expanding rights, i.e. Sixties war protests worked to dissuade use of the draft.
Here’s a hint, to get what you want just by being honest is not a protected right. What is a protected right is the freedom to practice one’s religion, and that is inclusive of requiring a specific world view in that practice.
You need to distinguish between what is legally protected versus what you would simply like to believe should be protected. If honesty were legally protected it would contradict laws against verbal hate crime.
Please, no one was going to force anyone else to pray. Just because it offended his delicate sensibilities, he decided his opinion trumped the majority. Where that is allowed wholesale you have an oligarchy, not a democracy. Even if prayer were dropped from the official graduation program, I hope students felt free to exercise their First Amendment right to initiate prayer on their own.
And since the ultimate end goal is very much the enactment/enforcement of laws to ensure the atheistic social changes, everyone knows exactly where the “movement” is headed.
If the law imposes a prohibitive cost to the point that religious groups could not run non-profit preschools, then how would that be different if secular groups were running those schools?
In fact given that the law as it stands provides such favourable conditions for religious prechools – it freezes out the non-religious ones now doesn’t it?
It thus violates the establishment clause. It is unduly favourable to religion.
So you believe that creationists shouldn’t be allowed to be groundsmen in science universities? That someone’s religious beliefs should bar them from certain work?
So for example a Islamic guy applying for a job at a printing press that prints Bibles should be prejudiced against for his belief that the said Bible is corrupted by the devil?
Or an evangelical in a similar situation, except that this time the press is printing Harry Potter books should be discriminated against in hiring?
After all, their beliefs would conflict with the product the organisation is producing. So applying your logic consistently I am left wondering – who is really talking about taking religious people’s rights away here?
You speak in your blog post about their being laws against discrimination based on creed – as though that means discrimination does not happen – and here you advocate it.
You lecture us on how we are antithe first amendment, and yet here you are positively advocating religious discrimination.
The majority of the voting public in South Africa for just over forty years consistently elected the government that imposed apartheid.
Were the minority (Of the public who could vote) who opposed that majority wrong? You put a lot of stock on this “majority will.”
That Fowler disagreed with the majority – does not make him wrong or their treatment of him justified.
Besides in the Fowler case there is a long legal history where the courts agreed with his protest. It was a violation of the establishment clause. I have precedent backing me, I have facts backing me, you? All you have is a fascist sneer.
More basic custom than law. Something being rude, is often more effective than it being illegal.
And I note that you openly advocate for discrimination in hiring against the very people you are trying to defend.
Okay – military personel being harrassed by their senior officers in order to get them to convert. In fact being punished for not wanting to attend a Christian rock concert.
It went to court and the military lost the case, but how many cases of this have happened without it going to court? Particularly with how the military has been advocating “spiritual fitness” since about 2005.
Posted by: Bruce Gorton | August 30, 2011 at 01:09 AM
The law, as it stands (providing equal funding), doesn’t impose prohibitive costs. The difference is that children in childcare spend a majority of their time there, and this must be a viable option to ensure no prohibition to the free exercise of religion.
Nonsense. Parents are merely given the choice of whether they trust the care of a religious daycare provider or would prefer state oversight. There is a trade off. Would you opt to have your children in a non-state overseen daycare when the cost to you is the same either way? That is the only criteria of religious preference. The market is only swayed by world view, and the equal funding merely makes it equally viable, so that it isn’t preferential to religious or secular world views.
This is not preferential, nor does it in any way violate the establishment clause.
You are the one who said a majority of those of an opposing world view would have a detrimental effect. I say you are comparing apples and oranges.
Purely secular oriented positions have purely secular criteria. Likewise, religious oriented positions have purely religious criteria. Simple as that. In general, the majority of secular interests are unconcerned with any particular world view, where religious interests are almost completely about a particular world view.
Not consistently at all, as you insist upon applying a secular viewpoint across the board. The “logic” you are trying to apply would be analogous to the printer of Harry Potter books being forced to hire a Christian and also ensure that this Christian wouldn’t have to do any work contrary to their conscience.
You see, secular, commercial interests are not concerned with ideology, nor should they be. It just isn’t relevant. Within any religious interests ideology is the entire point.
First, if you’re going to bring it up, why don’t you just comment on my blog, instead of carrying this discussion out well beyond the scope of the post we are commenting in? Of course, you might lose your sympathetic audience.
Second, as I just said, secular and religious interests define different criteria. Trade has no interest in ideology, so safeguards are in place to ensure ideology isn’t arbitrarily introduced. But where ideology is a primary concern, obviously ideology is the criteria.
Democracy puts a lot of stock in “majority will”. Note the qualifier “who could vote”, and as I said in my last comment, no minority corrects their own inequality solely under their own power.
I never said anything about how he may have been treated. All I said is that it was right, legally, to have any prayer introduced as part of a student’s freedom of speech. You’ll notice the school promptly corrected the mistake without legal action.
Nothing fascist about it. He was in the right to do as he did, but it was only an empty gesture, as the freedom of speech prevailed.
Complete nonsense, as I’ve explained above.
First, why is it atheists so rarely provide sources for specific cases they introduce? Didn’t you criticize my blog posts for just that, even though I didn’t bring up any specific cases? Can you say double standard?
Mmm, you mean the courts did their job, and the “Out Campaign” hasn’t done its so well? There is nothing wrong about atheists standing up for their rights. What is wrong is demonizing/insulting someone based solely upon them having an opposing world view. Just look up “bigotry” and try to realize how many atheists fit this definition, as well as theists.
What is it they say about two wrongs?
Versus
So which is it J.Wesley?
You argued:
It is your argument, just extrapolated.
I would say the job “janitor” is a fairly secular position. What’s god got to do with mopping up spilled soda?
But you argue that it is perfectly reasonable for a religious organisation to have faith requirments for that janitor job.
You added that last bit. If you hire onto a job you do the job. That’s just professionalism.
And also – universities are secular institutions. You are trying to bring in YECs surrounding professors as if YECs shouldn’t be hired into minor positions.
Because it is not. What we are talking about here is discrimination based on creed – which you appear to support. Not simply in the case of churches – but also secular institutions such as universities.
Hmm, lets see:
You don’t seem to have a very good memory for your own arguments J.Wesley. You should maybe go see a doctor about it.
Plus a petty irritation because, while I don’t much care about spelling or grammar, but because you tell me to look things up:
Dictionary.com
Yeah, not consistent at all, except for that whole “being the dictionary definition of consistent” thing.
Finally on Democracy:
I could just as easily have used Hitler as an example. He was elected lawfully under a Democratic process. It didn’t make gassing the Jews right.
The point to a constitution is to have certain limitations on the majority run government. Pure democracy can go wrong – in fact this is a central with gay marriage – where it is legal in the US it is legal due to judges finding it legal, not because the majority voted for it to be.
The courts only did their jobs – because the soldiers in question had an independent body they knew about that they could complain to. The Military Religious Freedom Association, which has close ties to the Out Campaign.
This was founded in 2005 due to rising religious abuses by senior officers.
The courts did their jobs – but without a independent party that stood outside the chain of command, there was nobody reliable to complain to within it without fear of reprisal.
It was a victory for being public.
You used the phrase “I’m angry that almost half of americans believe…” Angry. That people believe something.
And angry that “so many believers treat prayer as a sort of cosmic shopping list for God” Really? How do you know? Are you there when they are praying? This is an absurd assumption about people you cannot have sufficiently close personal connections to that you would know this.
Most of your anger is about things that OBVIOUSLY I agree with (not that you need my agreement), Rights violations, inequality, TOTALLY justified. But some of it is “I’m angry that a lot of people don’t think like I do.”
Which is the kind of thinking that created these inequalities. These wrong-headed approaches from people in places of power. People who were angry that anyone might believe differently.
I’M ANGRY when other people feel the right to judge what anyone believes. If it impacts your rights, your children, your treatment at school/work/with medical care? Yes. GET PISSED. But getting mad because you don’t like that someone else THINKS something?
My sister is an atheist. I’m not. She and I talk about it and while she’s angry if she or a friend with her beliefs is not treated equally (SO AM I), she’s mad when religious beliefs impact the laws of the country she lives in (SO AM I), she’s not mad that I don’t believe what she does. We talk about it. We accept and respect that we have different perspectives and we discuss them. And learn and gain insight from them. And AGREE about how we wish our world, government, schools, etc. would handle things. And actually have found we agree more than we ever expected about the world in general and our place in the universe specifically.
SO much of your anger is justified. You SHOULD be angry. Not that you need my permission, but I acknowledge that you have really good reasons to be angry. But it’s hard for me to separate your anger over genuine injustice from your ranting that some people will never see the world the same way you do. Some of your anger statements are simply “I’m pissed that some people think this.” I get that you feel that way. But to me it isn’t part of a legitimate argument regarding the injustice and BS that atheists are and should not be subjected to. It comes from the same mind-set that creates the problem.
We don’t have the right to make dictates about each other’s thoughts and beliefs. We shouldn’t have that right. If everyone agreed about that and respected that basic principle, the world would be very different.
Atheists have no responsibility to be the first one to the table when it comes to being the voice of reason in this. They have the right to be angry. I get that. I just believe that all intelligent people of ANY belief system take a step backward when they start from a place of judging the thoughts and beliefs of others.
Posted by: Bruce Gorton | August 31, 2011 at 02:55 AM
Mmm, comprehension troubles? “The law, as it stands, doesn’t impose prohibitive costs”, but “if aid wasn’t provided across the board” it would cause “prohibitive costs”. Confirmation bias can wreck comprehension faster than anything.
Nope, it’s you’re argument, as I emphasized here and corroborated with your earlier assertion that a majority of parents (not even at the facility daily) would have a detrimental effect.
A secular job title doesn’t have significant bearing in a religious organization, just as a religious title doesn’t in a secular business. The “business” of religion is ideology, where secular business is primarily concerned with an exchange of goods or services. Just a differentiation of where ideology does and does not matter. Where it does, any regulations that limit the freedom of ideological decisions are prohibitive of the free exercise of that ideology.
Just apply what reason you can bring to bear. You are advocating for no religion in purely secular interests, but then you want to introduce secular interests into religion. That is a double standard. If one is precluded from the other then this should be reciprocated in the opposite direction. Anything less can only be a ploy to undermine one unilaterally.
No, it was merely an analogy of the parents/teacher argument you made. And apparently, by your objection, it illustrates why your argument was faulty to begin with.
I’m not an atheism apologist, so I’m not fully apprised of all the details of a case you introduced. You’ll notice I asked:
“What abuse?”
So I made no statement/argument. I merely asked you to clarify.
That pesky confirmation bias is hindering your comprehension again. That, or you’re just intentionally erecting straw men and using ad hominems.
Yeah, we get the petty bit. As I’ve already explained above, consistent means “applied equally”. So if religion should be kept out of secular interests so should secular interests be kept out of religion. That is consistent. What you advocate is unilateral application of a secular bias.
Cite references. This is not true of constitutions in general, and you’d have to show where this is true of a specific constitution.
The US Constitution is primarily concerned with the rights of the majority over the governing body. The majority bent to the will of a minority is an oligarchy. Look it up.
If more soldiers were already “speaking out” they wouldn’t have to rely upon any “independent body”.
You’ll notice that the Military Religious Freedom Foundation makes my point about minorities requiring outside support to successfully forward their cause. In this case, atheists requiring the support of religious people sharing advocacy for religious freedom.
The fact that no minority has ever corrected its own inequalities is evidence that angrily estranging/alienating people is not conducive to a cause. And this tactic isn’t compatible with a “two-fold” strategy, as the alienation undoes what reasoned progress may be made.
Marisa,
Nicely said.
To Brad, the Evangelical Christian who seems to think we’re most angry at Catholics:
I’m actually equally angry at Evangelicals. I don’t think Greta mentioned this so here goes. Most, if not all, churches demand that people pay tithe. I’ve found that a lot of church leaders get rich scamming people out of their hard-earned money.
Also, it’s mostly Evangelicals that push their Creationist bullshit on schools. Their own schools are creating militant Creationists. This is a hindrance on society and on progress.
Sorry my friend, but your denomination is equally offensive with Catholicism.
George, unless you attend church, why should you care or be offended by what goes on in one? Or do you attend church just so you can be offended?
http://reasyn.blogspot.com/
J.Wesley: When preachers are inveighing about a cultural war and “raising up a quiver full of warriors for Christ”, why exactly should I worry less than about an imam preaching jihad?
And even without that, I get pissed off at cults that try to raise deliberately ignorant children.
What do you think about Scientology and the whole business of engrams and thetans? And the “billion-year contracts” and abuse some members experience?
Four years later and this remains one of the best written pieces I have seen on the subject. Well done, indeed.
Greta, if you’ll run for the White House, I’ll vote for you!
I am WAY WAY WAY more pissed than I already was. I’m a Pagan,(I get haters too) and that old booger atheism doesn’t scare me ANYMORE, it IS NOT A BOOGER!….It did scare me up until a few years back when I woke up one morning with MY OWN thought busting through..”WTF? Athiests just don’t believe! They don’t kill and maim and go to war because their Gawd told the to!” So, I’m pissed FOR YOU!
Eclectic, so you not only want religion out of politics and public view, but you also want to restrain its practice in private? Yet again, where the majority is bent to the will of a minority, you have an oligarchy, not a democracy.
Oligarchy is extremely short-sighted, as there is no guarantee that the minority in power would remain so. Thus your favored minority could easily end up under the heel of a much more extreme minority than the current majority. That is the protection of democracy.
You do realize, don’t you, that it is exactly this sort of thinking that implicitly threatens “culture war”. Where one group is so thoroughly intolerant of differing world views that they would actively seek to suppress their existence, there you find extremism and bigotry.
You are free to be angry about absolutely anything you wish. You’re even free to spout all the vitriol you like, short of libel. What you are not free to do is to unilaterally restrict the rights of others to soothe your sensitivities.
Look, people can appeal to progress all they like, but progress doesn’t trump freedom. Where it does, you have science run amok, with unwilling or uninformed testing. The ends does not justify the means.
http://reasyn.blogspot.com/
THANK-YOU SO MUCH.
Just found your blog-amazing.
This would have to be one of the best things i have ever read in my life and i read all the time.
Attagirl, Greta 🙂
Loved every word of it. And your reply. (I laughed out loud at “Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean”. Still giggling while I type it now…) Even when you’re pissed you still come across as a good-natured person. Those commenters who can’t see that are, shall we say, perhaps not the most perceptive folk.
And thank you, because I couldn’t have said it better, and now I don’t have to!
Greta wrote: “I’m angry that believers pray to win sporting events, poker hands, beauty pageants, and more. As if they were the center of the universe, as if God gives a shit about who wins the NCAA Final Four — and as if the other teams/ players/ contestants weren’t praying just as hard.” My question to Greta: is she going to allow her anger toward people keep her away from experiencing God? I say this because when I read what she wrote above it sounds like she’s acknowledging that there is a God; however, she’s an atheist. I don’t know whether God gives a shit about who wins the NCAA Final Four, but I do know from His Word that he DOES give a shit about Greta and Brianne (the person who sent me her article) and myself.
I appreciate righteous anger and reading her article I say she is totally justified in having anger. Most importantly, I admire that she admitted to having it and not denying it. It’s a well written article and I can say as an Authentic Christian that her and I are angry about a lot of the same things, but our anger should be toward Religion (man-made) not God or Authentic Christians. I reiterate that the MAJORITY of the religious church goers are going to be quite surprised when Jesus says, “I never knew you” and they end up in Hell. This is because they had head knowledge of who Christ was–NOT heart knowledge.
Greta wrote: “I get angry when believers use terrible, grief-soaked tragedies as either opportunities to toot their own horns and talk about how wonderful their God and their religion are… or as opportunities to attack and demonize atheists and secularism.” Bri, have I tooted my own horn about my adversity? I remember a conversation on FB where YOU tooted my horn, and I said, “Nope, I am where I am today because of Jesus.” Also, I don’t promote religion or give it any credit to where I am today minus the Catholic upbringing that did prevent me from committing suicide as a teenager because I was afraid to go to Hell. Today, I appreciate that! ; – ) I don’t attack atheists or secularism. As you know, I prefer them to the religous. Atheists ARE INDEPENDENT thinkers. Atheists ARE passionate. Atheists ARE seekers. Religous folk pretty much are just going along with what their mama and daddy told them growing up. I would prefer an honest atheist as president than a religous president who is hiding behind God’s word, but doesn’t have Jesus in his heart.
Greta wrote: I get angry when believers respond to some or all of these offenses by saying, “Well, that’s not the true faith. Hating queers/ rejecting science/ stifling questions and dissent… that’s not the true faith. People who do that aren’t real (Christians/ Jews/ Muslims/ Hindus/ etc.).” As if they had a fucking pipeline to God. As if they had any reason at all to think that they know for sure what God wants, and that the billions of others who disagree with them just obviously have it wrong. I say angrily back to Greta that I do have a fucking pipeline to God by reading His Word. His Word tells me explicitly what He wants and His Word is what I know for sure. What I have noticed is that the religious and the atheist have one thing in common… They use God’s Word to debate and argue with each other. I use His Word (All of it) to show me how to live and how to treat His people and His world.
Greta wrote: How the hell do they know which parts of the Bible/ Torah/ Koran/ Bhagavad-Gita/ whatever God really meant, and which parts he didn’t?
I will stand up and be persecuted for His Word. I believe the entire Bible was inspired by God, and it’s all true and what He wanted in there is in there, and I am a literal Bible reader. In my fourteen years of reading it I have concluded one thing for sure: All 66 books are to point a person to Christ. I don’t believe the Bible was meant for trivia or debate. God didn’t give us His Word to argue about it. He gave us His Word to lead us to Christ.
Greta wrote: What right do they have to act as if their opinion is the same as God’s and he’s totally backing them up on it?
I can only say that I read His Word and try to live my life by His Word to the best of my ability. I am not stating my opinion when I say somethng from His Word, but stating what He said in His Word.
Thank you Bri for tagging me on this article. Thanks to Greta I do need to apologize for using the “f” word in my response, but Authentic Christians get angry too. I know she doesn’t care about the difference in Religious “believers” or Authentic Christians (a minority in itself); however, I know I sleep very peaceful at night that I have the courage to be myself in the eyes of God, and, like the atheist, stand up for what I believe in too. Do you think Greta would be willing to answer my other question: What do atheists say (or think) about the atheists who end up giving their life to Christ and becoming Christians?
Sylvie Barton:
Just saying that you really, really mean it doesn’t make it true.
People of any religion will do this. Atheists have as well. Many of these people are rotting in prison as I write this, likely suffering in unimaginable ways while they wait to be executed. Apostasy is still a crime in more places than we’d like to admit.
Saying that you’ll suffer for your belief doesn’t make that belief true, it simply means that you are sincere. While that’s nice, it’s also true of almost anyone with almost any strongly held belief at almost any time in human history. It’s certainly true of many of my beliefs, and not just the religious ones.
Sylvia Barton wrote: “Do you think Greta would be willing to answer my other question: What do atheists say (or think) about the atheists who end up giving their life to Christ and becoming Christians?”
I’m not Greta ;-), and I can’t speak for other atheists, but I’ll give you one atheist’s answer (mine):
My own experience went the opposite direction of what you describe. I was actually raised to believe in God and the Christian religion and was very devout for several years. It was skeptical curiosity and critical thinking later in my life that led me to question the beliefs I had been indoctrinated with. This in turn led me eventually to non-belief. It was not a goal I sought after. Indeed, I struggled internally for several years before coming to terms with my non-belief.
We all have individual reasons for our thoughts, beliefs, non-beliefs, and actions. There is no “rule book” for being an atheist, and though critical thinking and skepticism led many of us to being atheists, it is not necessarily true that all who define themselves as atheist followed this same path.
The atheist-to-Christian converts that I’ve read about so far seem to have been atheists more for emotional driven reasons or simply because they had never really given the idea of a god very much thought in the first place, and were atheists “by default.” From what I’ve read from theses converts so far, the general theme is that they felt a need to have some external source to define meaning and purpose in their lives. Where as I (like many others) define my own life meaning through my interactions with people and my surroundings, and doing what I can to help make the world a better place.
I don’t base my non-belief upon what others think or believe, so what other atheists decide to believe or not really doesn’t have any bearing on me personally, and I wish them a happy and productive life. I hope this helps.
Quoth Ms Barton:
Unfortunately, your stating you believe it’s all true doesn’t make it so, if for no other reason that the Bible is riddled with contradictions, and that’s ignoring instances where the Bible is contradicted by historical evidence.
Or, indeed, your own behavior. Do you keep your head covered in public, per 1 Corinthians? Do you seclude yourself for a full week during your period of “uncleanliness,” per Leviticus? Indeed, does Leviticus even apply to you, as it does according to the entire Old Testament and Matthew, or does it no longer matter, per Luke and the Pauline Epistles?
You can assert that “God didn’t give us His Word to argue about it” but it’s rather difficult not to when “His Word” is so inconsistent. Heck, if “God didn’t give us His Word to argue about it” why are there so many Christian denominations alone, who in centuries past would have persecuted each other as heretics? And indeed other religions, which brings us right back to Greta’s points above. If “God didn’t give us His Word to argue about it,” then why didn’t He do a better job of giving us His Word in unequivocal terms, readily understood in every human tongue? Why hasn’t He intervened in every religious schism, manifesting in order to clarify what He meant and thus stop the argument once and for all?
Dear Greta,
I have just watched the 48 minutes video on the conference you had bearing the same title than this article. I am sorry that you received so many threats and hatred on the part of believers and I see you point: it is when you start annoying people and getting them to react that you know that you are on the right path to true change.
In consideration of this, they are a few points that I would like to share with you ( please forgive me if some of them have already been mentioned to you but you have so many posts…).
But before I go on about this, know that I am not from the United States and my country is considered “laïque”(which means that does not belong to the church, that is independent of any religion) thus, I never had to deal with most of the conflict between atheist and religious people that you mention and the teaching of evolution was never even questioned. I was then surprised that atheist would be treated and considered as another type of “religion” in the states.
Also, in my family we always made a huge deal about differentiating atheist from agnostics (that believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material: technically no body knows) and one should be careful when they say that the number of atheists are growing for the most part of the younger population around the world, unless threatened in their ability to get instant gratification, is as interested in religion as they are in politics: THEY DO NOT CARE… (which is truly sad !!)
Going back to your speech, even though most of the points you raised are truly outrageous, I have a feeling that sometime you mistake religion for culture and vice versa. In fact, the main reason why aids spread in Africa is not because of the Catholic church forbidding the use of condoms. There is something truly cultural about being able to reproduce and perpetuate the race (which our individual societies where “ego/self” comes first, does not emphasize anymore)hence the conflict with the use of condoms. This is just an example but there were many times during your speech that I felt an unjust amalgam was being done. You have every right to be angry and to voice it out(and I am no one to “cast the first stone on you” ;)but please be careful because you have tremendous amount of followers (which is great) to not lead them to use religion as an excuse-target for their anger.
You were talking about Ideology and the differences that is had with religion. Having studying the major monotheist and polytheist religions I learned that there are two parts in it: the dogma and the faith. The faith is personal it’s a relationship that one has with his/hers God/gods. The Dogma is a an ideology (here you go 🙂 that tends to have people follow the same path to reach out to their faith. Religious ideologies are born and die every day, just like political ones. An ideology is what makes religion look terrible. Because once an ideology is born it can only survive if it is imposed and carried on to the largest number of people. Therefore, people who believe in this ideology, this way of doing things will impose it on others through crusades, conversions, fear imposing and other terrible means. This distinction is why some people will tell you that others are using religion as an excuse and it is not the way it should be (because it is not their ideology).
As I you can probably guess I am agnostic because I know that nothing can be proven neither that god/gods exist nor that they don’t. but I also am fascinated by religions in that they bring something else, just like philosophy does ( in one of my essays I actually compared Jesus to Socrates and it is fascinating to see how much they have in common).
To wrap it up, I believe that you are angry at the fundamentals of human nature and how they have been using religion (the dogma) as an explanation to justify everything they do, rather than religion (faith) itself. I encourage you in your fight even though I cannot agree with it, for I believe that they are always great outcomes resulting from ideology confrontations (one of them might be as simple as redefining what religion is :).
To finish on a funny note, there was once written on the walls of the Parisien metro: “God is Dead” signed Nietzsche and after a while another person wrote under “Nietzsche is Dead” signed God.
Good Luck in your quest.
Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes!
Tremendous, just simply tremendous. Thanks.
OK I just want to say what pisses me off about this, is that if I as a religious person write a rant about how atheism has also been the cause of countless deaths and injustices in the world, an atheist will invariably turn around and say, “no, but it wasn’t atheism that made so and so evil, it was just that they did that on their own.”
I say to that, spot on!! Atheism isn’t the cause of these things.
So how is that different to religious people doing terrible things?
People do fucking horrible things. It’s just people. You can blame it on whatever the fuck you like. If you eradicated religion completely, people would still kill each other.
Critique religion if you want, critique is great. Just don’t take the baseless view that it is the cause of all evil. It’s just stupid.
two points to add…
1) the teaching that Christ has died for all sin – noble as it may seem, is fundamentally a problem. THAT is why so many do bad things, because deep down they believe they can be absconded… even those that are truly religious and believe and teach that you should not sin again once you have confessed your sin and that it is forgiven – they teach also that you can be forgiven again and again – as long as you are honest in your asking forgiveness !!! Now, that actually translate into – not taking real responsibility for your own actions… and THAT is the real problem with forgiving of sin. Atheist, generally, do take full responsibility and generally, do not need to be frightened into behaving in a way that is generally acceptable to society.
2) The real reason why apartheid is seen as a sin against humanity is that it get people to BELIEVE they are superior/inferior depending on which side you are looking at. EXACTLY the same can be said of religion… it really should be seen and treated as a WRONG against humanity!
Hi Greta,
—-
I’m angry that women are dying of AIDS in Africa and South America because the Catholic Church has convinced them that using condoms makes baby Jesus cry.
—–
If you had any real knowledge of the African AIDS problem, you would see the reality is the polar opposite of your opinion.
The worst affected African nations, (defined by HIV-AIDS rates at up to 20-something percent of the adult population), are overwhelmingly non-Catholic. These nations, such as South Africa for example, tend to have Catholic minorities making up perhaps just 5-6% of the population.
In contrast, the few African nations which could be defined as Catholic, (that is, 50% or more of the population is Catholic), are relatively unaffected by HIV-AIDS.
But don’t take my word for it – find out for yourself. Good places to start are:
http://www.avert.org/
A secular HIV-AIDs charity with good info on infection rates in countries.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/
A Catholic statistics site, which has Catholic population data for countries.
Very clearly, it is the sexual behaviour of non-Catholics which has caused the issue. The sexual behaviour of Catholics is not linked to the problem in any way.
It is very quick and easy to see that you – like many – are spreading malicious misinformation on this issue, Greta.
Why is the reality different to what you say? Because, very obviously, nations which promote sex as something good within a monogamous marriage only, will ALWAYS do better than a promiscuous nation when it comes to STD rates.
It is frankly stupidity and intellectually dishonest to suggest otherwise.
Condoms are not 100% effective – as is stated on every box of them – and so it is misleading to portray them as “protection”.
“Safe sex” is one of the great secular myths. It is not true to suggest that humanity has successfully and reliably separated the pleasure of sex from its natural consequences. As abortion and STD rates loudly and clearly proclaim.
Dr Edward Green, a senior public health expert at Harvard University, says the same. He largely affirms the view of Pope Benedict XVI. Read some of Dr Greens books, you might learn something.
Dr Green states that there has been no tangible positive effect from decades of flooding Africa with condoms, and suggests the continuation of policy us more based on capitalism, (somebody, somewhere is obviously profiting from the manufacture of all these condoms), than any signs of success.
Success is only ever achieved when promotion of monogamy is included in the effort to fight HIV-AIDS, as per Uganda for example.
The issue is one of behaviours, and it is only by changing behaviours that real improvement will be achieved. Achievements have not – and will not – be made with pieces of latex, which are at best a mitigation of the problem, not a solution. As per Dr Greens opinion. But this is not really very difficult to work out for yourself.
The problem is that you are not seeking the truth in these matters Greta, you are seeking malicious caricatures which support your anti-religion agenda. You care not a bit for the suffering of Africans – otherwise you would tell the truth about their problems – you are only interested in them in so far as using their plight as a weapon.
You seek to justify your “anger”, though it is probably more accurate to say “justify your dislike”.
That you ignore the FACTS and sneeringly reduce the issue – one of peoples lives – to one of “making baby jesus cry” is typical of the intellectual pygmyism which charaterises those who erroneous and maliciously accuse the Catholic Church of causing / fueling the AIDS problem in Africa.
Its simply not true.
Maybe if you were better educated on these matters, you would be a bit less angry? Just a thought.
And why is your apparent concern and sympathy limited to women? What of the many men and boys whose lives have been affected?
Regards
G Wright
“I’m angry about what happened to Galileo. Still. And I’m angry that it took the Catholic Church until 1992 to apologize for it.”
—–
Hi Greta,
If you are still angry about a historical event, one which a Pope acknowledged fault and apologised for (20 years ago), what will it take to quench this anger?
It seems to me that nothing will satisfy you here. What more can be done?
Say sorry again? Well, that obviously didn’t please you the first time. Cant say Id be holding my breath for round 2.
Go back in time and change things? Sadly, no-one has invented a time machine yet.
Nothing will or can please you.
You are either irrationally holding on to destructive, negative emotions, or you are again (see my earlier post) using convenient issues as weapons to justify your dislike of religion.
I know what my money is on.
In any case, the issues around Galileo were not related to the content of his work, but how he presented it, and how he alienated a Pope, who was previously his biggest supporter.
But you likely care as little for the facts here as you do about HIV-AIDS. All that matters is having some fish to throw to your faithful penguins eh?
In any case, through the Pontifical Academy for Science, the Catholic Church has made – and continues to make – a great ongoing contribution to human scientific understanding, and the promotion of science. It even works hand-in-hand with atheists (for example Stephen Hawking is a current member of the Academy), to promote science for the common good.
If an apology will not satisfy you, then nothing will. Thats unfortunate – forgiveness and reconcillation are good things, you know.
Still, perhaps the great effort of the Church to contribute to scientific progress might assuage your great anger over the unfortunate one-off trial of Gallileo a little? Even just a teensy-weensy little bit??
Anger is rarely (if ever) a good thing; it is a negative emotion, linked to other negative emotions. It also clouds thinking. Put your energies into positive things, not negative things.
G. Wright,
Why would you defend the Catholic church over the AIDS victims? Condoms help reduce the spread of STDs. Is the FDA a good enough source?
And what about the following quote taken from this related article?
G. Wright,
You’re kidding me? Of all the things she posted, you decided to focus on *fucking* Galileo and then conclude she has anger problems?
Also, while the Roman Catholic Church has been progressive with science, it has not been with other issues. Take, for example, their continual desire to cover up priests who are involved in sex abuse scandals. And Benedict recently saying that American nuns needed to focus less time on social welfare issues and more time on making sure LGBTQ people do not have rights in this country.
Oh yes, they are stalwart examples of human virtue, aren’t they? As far as I am concerned, they deserve the “evil” label that they have earned over the centuries.
Also G. Wright, even if what you said was true regarding AIDS (I’m not sure yet, I haven’t looked into it), should non-Catholic minorities suffer? I agree that AIDS-avoidance should partly involve changing people’s behaviors (although I’m not sure if monogamy is the “safest” method — why not other arrangements like polygyny, polyamory, or polandry which can also involve abstinence before marriage?), but couldn’t condoms be provided in conjunction with educational options? I’m not sure my faith in humanity is positive enough to suggest that we’ll resolve the AIDS epidemic overnight without safer sex measures.
Hi Greta,
Wow, this was very eye-opening for me! Thank you! As a believer myself, I sincerely apologize, for our despicable, abusive, hypocritical, and atrocious thoughts and behavior. I am so sorry for the detrimental effect it has had on you and billions of others. Although I’ve never been an atheist, I can relate to you because I have suffered terrible abuse from my father who was a pastor and missionary. I have personally experienced and witnessed austrosities done in the name of Christ. It got so bad, that when I was in high school my mom finally separated from him and got a restraining order. To this day, my manipulative, controlling, and still abusive dad (although I now control how much time I spend with him)is a professing Christian who is actively involved in his church and missions (although he is no longer a minister himself). However, I decided not to allow my fathers portrayal of Christ to dictate what I thought of Christ. So I gave Jesus the benefit of the doubt and got to know him for myself, and found out he is the complete opposite of my father and how so many professing Christians portray him to be. Jesus helped me through depression (been off anti-depressants for several years now!), suicidal thoughts, and paralyzing fears. He is still healing my heart but I am not the same person I use to be. I still struggle with OCD behavior as a result of my abusive father, but it does not affect my life nearly as badly as it use to. Jesus is helping me completely conquer it and I no longer see myself as a victim. The Jesus I know gives me so much joy, peace, love, and satisfaction that nothing or no one else does or can. Yes, I have definitely questioned my faith, but now I have experienced him so much personally that it would be ridiculous (maybe even nearly impossible) for me to stop believing. I wish so badly that you would meet Jesus for yourself instead of allowing hypocritical believers to control you by keeping you away from what you’ve been looking for your whole life. I would love to talk with you more if you would like.
to c4bl3fl4m3 (and anyone like him)
there are probably better comments that i haven’t read that answer you much better then this but here is my answer.
atheist feel that some theist are trying to dissolve our belief system as well, abet in a much less logical way. where theists don’t seem to have any other goal in dissolving atheism then to make the annoying voices go away, atheist want to dissolve religion for all the reasons that are listed in this article. And then some. how could you read that whole article and then ask why we want no more of religion, that causes so much pain! does the pain out weigh the joy? I’m inclined to think not. and to those saying that not everyone who is religious causes this pain in the world, they should be left alone. there is still the issue of the religious that do. how are we to stop them without kicking their religion in the gut sometimes, if not a lot of the time? And trust me we are happy to do it.
“And I’m angry that their religion, which if nothing else should have been a comfort to them in their old age, was instead a source of anguish and despair — because they knew their children and grandchildren were all going to be burned and tortured forever in Hell, and how could Heaven be Heaven if their children and grandchildren were being eternally burned and tortured in Hell?”
This right here is the original thing that led to me losing my Christian faith. I was raised Christian, by my Baptist mother. We went to church every week, and I liked it – I liked the hymns, I liked the other children there, and I liked skipping up and down the aisle to the music when the hymns were being sung (I remember my favourite was ‘Shine Jesus Shine’). And for a while, I liked Sunday School, until I hit about ten years old, moved up to the next age group, and we stopped just being told the nicey nice stories about what Jesus did. I remember one Sunday School session being almost exclusively about the following passage from the Bible (I forget where in the Bible it’s from, and the wording may not be exact, but):
“I am the way, the truth, and the light. There is no way to the Father, except through me.”
And we were told that this meant the only way people could get into heaven was if they accepted Jesus Christ. Everyone else would go to Hell.
This didn’t sit right with me, even then. I remember raising my hand and saying “What, even nice people? People who don’t do anything bad?” and was told that not believing in Jesus made them bad people, and that’s why they would go to Hell.
We were also told “All sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord” – so if we told a small white lie, like the good old “The dog ate my homework”, in the eyes of God, this would be the same as going out and murdering someone – which even to my childhood self, seemed like a completely and utterly crazy concept. It made absolutely no sense. I didn’t understand why these adults, who were supposed to know so much more than us, could actually say such a thing.
But back to the not believing in Jesus = Hell thing. This caused me much, much panic and terror and crying later on, once I’d had time to think about it, because I remembered – my father, who was divorced from my mother, who had never harmed anyone in his life, and who, in my opinion, was the single most wonderful, amazing and greatest person in the universe, had told me, after I asked why he didn’t go to church, that he didn’t believe in God.
And according to what I was taught at church, by the minister, the Sunday school teachers, my own mother – this meant that he would go to Hell.
I didn’t want my daddy to go to Hell. Why would God ever want to send him to Hell? He’s such a wonderful man – and he has primary progressive multiple sclerosis. He’s been in a wheelchair since I was about seven years old, and will never walk again. Over the years since, he’s been slowly losing the use of his arms and hands as well as his legs, is confined to his home, and lives in almost constant pain. So according to my Church, God gave him a horrible, progressive, incurable disease, that makes him suffer greatly in life – and then punishes him further when he’s gone by sending him to be tortured for an eternity in Hell?
Why would anyone WANT to believe in a God like that?!
And then, later, I came to another realisation – Heaven was supposed to be a paradise, where we all lived happily for eternity. But for me, it wouldn’t be Heaven unless my Dad would be there, too. How on earth would I EVER be able to enjoy a paradise, knowing that my own dear father was suffering an eternity of torment in Hell instead? It wouldn’t BE heaven. It wouldn’t be a paradise.
And that’s when it struck me – the whole promise of Heaven is a complete and utter lie. They promise me Heaven – yet also promise that my father would go to hell – meaning that it wouldn’t be Heaven. And in the years since, not just my father – my sister, who is atheist. Practically all of my friends. My fiancé, who is Jewish. According to what I was taught, they would all go to hell.
So basically, if I went to Heaven, I’d be totally alone (apart, it must be said, from my mother, and while I love her with all my heart she does my head in after a couple of hours on earth, an eternity with ONLY her for company would be… gargh) with the knowledge that everyone else I’ve ever loved or cared about was burning in Hell. And at risk of sounding like a broken record… that would mean it’s not Heaven.
And that’s what eventually made me stop believing in God, Jesus and religion in general – because isn’t the whole POINT of religion “Do what it says here and you’ll go to a lovely place when you die”. That’s what it all revolves around. Not just Christianity, but ALL religions revolve around something good happening when you die. And if that isn’t true… then the whole thing is a lie.
I didn’t come to all these conclusions that day when I was ten, however. It took a long, long time before I finally realised this truth – or maybe I realised it then, and it took me that long to accept it. It wasn’t an easy thing. In those years I still went to church, Sunday school, and when I was older, Bible study sessions. Each one seemed to slowly push me further away, as I found problems with more and more things I was being taught as fact.
But you know what… sometimes, even though I’ve now been an atheist for years, and I’m now a woman in my twenties, I sometimes still sit bolt upright in the night in terror, thinking “What if there IS a Hell, and I end up there?”
A lifetime of indoctrination is pretty hard to completely shake off.
Why are….. so angry. Fill in the blank you have a world of choice. I have a similar list as a black person and a similar list as a woman. In fact sadly, most people in the world can come up with such a list because oppression is real and not a thing of the past. But if all these groups from Kurds, to Irish Americans to Black South Africans merely used their anger to hammer home their agenda, where would the world be? I don’t think in a better place then where we are now. Could South Africa move forward if all the blacks used their time to hate on whites? They would be justified to do so but what would it solve? It would merely turn the tables.
Ghandi once said an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
I have observed that most atheist I have met are often white and coming from middle to upper class, not all, but the majority I have encountered. Most of them were fortunate enough to have unfettered access to education, again not all but the ones I have encountered, seen speak and read. I wonder as they become Atheists is this their first experience as an oppressed group? Welcome to the club is all I can say! As a black person it took some time to get over the deep anger at the injustices suffered by myself and “my people.” The anger over victimization though is a weight on the chest that in the end punishes you even more and slows your own progress. When Barack Obama was elected president every black person I spoke to said they cried. It made them a little less angry; it made them feel a little more respected. Whatever you think of US politics, that was a huge moment of healing for many of us. I hope as Atheists see and feel more acceptance, they will find some dissipation of the anger and be able to stand taller than their opponent, provoke real dialogue and change that stems from truth and not shame. People like Martin Luther King and Ghandi had anger at injustice and that anger stirred their passion for justice. They worked hand in hand with whites and Brits to make real change. But both men, spiritual men at that, knew peaceful engagement was the only way to insure real change. We want to cast off shackles of oppression not simply exchange who wears them.
Greta, even after all these years your anger and your fluency of expression still move me. Thank you.
Five and a half years later and this is the third time I’ve come back to read this. It still has just as much power as it did when I originally read it. It should be required reading for anyone who wonders why atheists seem strident at times. I also think you’re right in that the impetus for change comes from anger.
I was raised in a religious family, spent my years from 12 to 16 praying passionately to feel ANYTHING linking me to god and studying the bible intensely. When I was 16 I had finally gotten enough education, both religious and secular, to realize how preposterous the notion of an all-powerful, all-knowing god that has existed forever and that cannot even make his creations properly was and I became an atheist and I’ve never looked back except to acknowledge the near miss. The only things I really feel “angry” about are the instances where politicians force their religious presuppositions and prejudices into binding law, discrimination of all types and general injustice. I don’t care what someone believes, as long as they don’t try and force it on others. However when someone starts talking religion, I feel free to discuss my atheism and if they argue the subject with me I’ll argue right back.
I read ALL the comments, many disappoint me by not realizing that atheist doesn’t mean “against god”, which would be anti-theist, but simply means “without god” which renders a lot of the comments moot. Even a lot of agnostics and even some atheists make this mistake.
As a general note to all the religionists, at least TRY to imagine the atheist viewpoint logically instead of taking all the prejudicial statements you’ve ever heard about atheists as your starting point and remember what the word atheism means. It will help your argument immensely and might even make you think.
I also take issue with the idea of “majority rule”, that’s what gave us Jim Crow laws. Rights should never be subject to a simple majority decision. Rights belong to everyone! Otherwise they’d be called privileges.
Enough on my opinions, I hope I’ve contributed to the conversation.
I’m 9 years late to seeing this… but I’m glad I finally did. This is very well-said, impassioned, and all-around great. Thank you for writing this! It’s just as applicable now as it ever was. (Though, thankfully gay marriage is legal here in the U.S. Now, let’s work on making sure it stays that way… some folk want to turn back the clock on it.)