On being “factually incorrect” and “abusive”

This happened; documenting it seemed worthwhile in case it continues and people wish to catch up. Judging by other participants’ tweets after the exchange posted here, I sense too that it was only the latest chapter of some older disagreements.





  1. says

    Those pastors are taking wooden bullets because they care about social justice and will do something that endangers themselves to do it…just like the non-theists and anti-theists next to them. Must not be the religion then..but something more basic like the universal human sense of fairness (which even apes have.)

    Not to diminish the actions of the pastors…but they are EXACTLY like the actions of the non-religious in this context.

  2. MFHeadcase says

    So, you are being “factually incorrect,” and “abusive,” with no actual examples of you engaging in either. Bu you are the bad guy?

    Sounds about normal.

  3. lol mahmood says

    I don’t have much time for the ‘racism is evil’ argument when i see the KKK campaigning against the Westboro Baptist Church.

    This is fun. Someone else have a go.

  4. says

    …and that was the point where I started to get ragey. If she wonders for a second why atheists of color aren’t flocking to the movement as a whole, all she has to do is read that last tweet of hers over and over again until it sticks.

    Using the pain of another group as a “end the conversation” trap card is profoundly crappy, and her refusal to acknowledge those who have called her out in order to continue the argument with other (white) atheists is shameful.

  5. Konradius says

    I actually think ‘Because you’re mimicking their tactics’ is an abusive comment that I’d like her to explain. And ‘feeding into their concept of culture war’ is denying the actual culture war that is going on. One that leaves a string of destroyed lives for instance in suicides of queer children of rightwing/religious parents.

    And talking harshly about it as you are doing might actually save some of those queer people who’d be lost if the only atheists were the soft spoken ones!

  6. says

    Me, I try to make it clear that I’m criticizing religion as an idea and an institution, not bullying believers. I don’t go up to every theist I know and say, “You’re an idiot!” In fact, I’d be happy to share a meal with a believer. I’ll even pay for the meal! Just don’t think I won’t ask challenging questions.

  7. Konradius says

    Whenever I am tempted to lay a hard blame on a believer, I try to remember that that person probably got to believe because of his/her parents.
    Whenever I am tempted to blame parents, I try to remember they were brought up by believing parents as well.

  8. carlie says

    Her claim that “confrontation does not work” is factually wrong. It works very well on some people. It worked well on me. Every time I’ve seen this topic come up, there have been dozens of other people saying the same.

  9. Drolfe says

    Carlie, that immediately stuck out to me too. To which I replied,

    @dorolfe: @onesarahjones @AlexGabriel “confrontational tactics do not help. They make things worse.”

    This is not true. See every justice struggle.

    @onesarahjones @AlexGabriel “confrontational tactics do not help. They make things worse.”
    (Frederick Douglass refuted this ages ago.)

    Which is to say he said this in 1857, speaking from his own experience (http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass#West_India_Emancipation_.281857.29)

    The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. […] If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. […] Men might not get all they work for in this world, but they must certainly work for all they get.

    (My emphasis)

    Anyhow, she went on to say that religious privilege wasn’t oppressive, by denying that our right to not be harmed by religious structures wasn’t a justice struggle. She never engaged my argument. I wasn’t impressed.

  10. John Horstman says

    Jones seems to take it as a given that everyone doesn’t want a “culture war” and that to end it, we should basically surrender. I see capitalist assholes say the same thing about the class war they have been waging for the entire history of capitalism. Confrontationalists may well be hurting Jones’s cause, but I don’t think it’s a cause I share. And WTF do pastors in Ferguson have to do with whether religion is a problematic social system? Are we supposed to accept that people who do some good things can’t ever do harm, or that becasue the pastors in question might describe their reasoning as religious, we can’t still judge religion to be a net harm if it motivates some people to do good things sometimes? I’m pretty sure we’ve demolished these trite apologetics over and over and over… And this is why many of us find ‘fathiests’ to be exceptionally irritating – they have a tendency to parrot bad arguments in favor of religion that we hear from the religious all the blasted time. The points are no better for having come from someone who doesn’t believe in any gods; they’re still bad arguments.

  11. Drolfe says

    Same here, John Horstman. If “culture war” is her way of saying “plowing up the ground” and “thunder and lighting” and “the awful roar of many waters” then I’d say more culture war is necessary, not less!

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