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Putin, Netanyahu and Neo-Con Cognitive Dissonance

A very interesting thing has happened in the wake of Vladimir Putin’s annexation of Crimea and hostile moves in the eastern Ukraine — he and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are suddenly buddies. Israel even abstained from the UN vote that condemned Russia’s recent military actions. This poses a real problem for American neo-cons who are demanding strong action against Putin.

But there may be something even juicier beneath even that. Neither Sullivan nor Larison mentions this explicitly, but it would seem that this tilt of Israel toward Russia puts American neoconservatives in an uncomfortable position. Neoconservatives have treated Russia’s bid to become a stronger regional power as a direct threat to a U.S.-led world order and the possible reintroduction of fascism into Europe.

For some neoconservatives, Benjamin Netanyahu is the totem of “moral clarity” on the international scene. And yet, these same writers will say that Obama is being played for a fool over Crimea. If Obama is a fool for not opposing Putin strongly enough, what does that make of Bibi’s moral clarity? Bill Kristol worries that Obama is placating Russia, and has said that Obama’s“weakness” has invited Russia’s aggression in the Ukraine. What has Israel’s silence done? When Kristol says that America should be making Putin’s friends pay a price, surely he doesn’t mean Israel.

In fact the magazine Kristol edits never even mentioned Israel’s non-vote.

Andrew Sullivan picks up that thread:

Here’s a thought experiment. Imagine if France or Britain or Germany had abstained in the UN vote on the annexation of Crimea, and robbed the US of international support. Do you think Bill Kristol would not have mentioned it? Of course not. We’d be reading the umpteenth Weekly Standard piece on the feckless appeasers and ninnies of Old Europe. But when Israel does the same thing … crickets. Or even, in fact, lionization of Netanyahu as a strong figure on the world stage – compared, of course, with president Obama. After a while you notice something about this faction: when they are engaged on obvious inconsistency, Israel – not America – is almost always the reason why. And they will always, in that instance and that instance alone, blame America first.

Ah, the tangled webs they are forced to weave when they’re being inconsistent.

Comments

  1. D. C. Sessions says

    This kind of thing is bound to happen when you argue from your conclusions to your principles instead of vice versa.

  2. steve84 says

    The only reason American neo-cons like Israel is because it needs to exist so it can be destroyed when Jesus returns.

  3. says

    Bill Kristol worries that Obama is placating Russia…

    …as opposed to both the neo-cons and paleo-cons, who are showing more backbone by actively humping Putin’s leg.

  4. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    “..And they will always, in that instance and that instance alone, blame America first.” – Andrew Sullivan.

    Oh well, I’m sure they’ll be plenty of Israel blaming and bashing here on this thread and FTB more generally to “make up” for that putative deficit.

    As if the world or anywhere needs more Judaeophobia. It doesn’t.

  5. says

    I heard Israel’s appeasement of Putin is due to a significant minority of Russian Jews in Israel. Perhaps Netenyahu is afraid they’ll try to get Israel to join Russia?

  6. colnago80 says

    It should be pointed out that there is a separation between the neo-cons and the religious right relative to ole Vladimir. The born agains think that Putin is the cat’s meow because of his crackdown on homosexuals.

  7. blf says

    As if the world or anywhere needs more Judaeophobia.

    And in the first four comments, we have the fake equivalence of objecting to the actions of the Israeli state with antisemitism.

    Criticizing Israel is not, a aprori, antisemitism; nor should Israel be immune to criticism.

  8. says

    Colnago, there’s no such “separation” — both are trying to blame Obama for Russian aggression, and the neo-cons need the religious right vote too much to actually disagree with them on anything. (Trick question: which of those two camps is Sarah Palin in? Both. There’s not exactly a huge schism between them, not over Russia, nor over Iraq.)

  9. says

    The only reason American neo-cons like Israel is because it needs to exist so it can be destroyed when Jesus returns

    It’s also an important outpost that’s used in the ancient imperial game of “divide et impera”

  10. doublereed says

    I heard Israel’s appeasement of Putin is due to a significant minority of Russian Jews in Israel. Perhaps Netenyahu is afraid they’ll try to get Israel to join Russia?

    That seems like an odd reason. After all, those Jews fled Russia for a reason…

  11. laurentweppe says

    The only reason American neo-cons like Israel is because it needs to exist so it can be destroyed when Jesus returns.

    No: the only reason American neo-cons like Israel is because they perceive it as the vanguard of the white bourgeoisie showing these uppity dark-skinned proles who the real rulers of the planet are.
    It’s bullies who create their self-righteous, self-justifying religious interpretations, not the other way around.

  12. pocketnerd says

    Thus Spake ZaraStevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!, #4

    Oh well, I’m sure they’ll be plenty of Israel blaming and bashing here on this thread and FTB more generally to “make up” for that putative deficit.

    As if the world or anywhere needs more Judaeophobia. It doesn’t.

    Criticism of Israel’s policies and politics is not antisemitism, and equating the two is a particularly cheap dodge.

  13. Nick Gotts says

    The only reason American neo-cons like Israel is because it needs to exist so it can be destroyed when Jesus returns. – steve84

    Not so: that’s the case for many members of the religious right, but while these overlap with neo-cons, they are by no means identical. Israel is seen by them (and not just by them, this perception is almost universal across the American elite) as a reliable ally, bound to the USA by multiple ties (military, diplomatic, economic, cultural) in contrast to any other state in a globally crucial region. While the alliance has held for long enough to seem inevitable, it isn’t: the USSR was a firm supporter of the establishment of the state of Israel, while the USA intervened in 1956 to stop the attack on Egypt by Britain, France and Israel. Israel’s motiviation in this case is quite clear: annexing occupied territory is contrary to international law, so states that have done this or might wish to do so in future will tend to support each other. Among other prominent abstainers were India (which annexed Goa and Sikkim), China (which is keen to “reclaim” Taiwan) and South Africa (which may at some time wish to annex Lesotho andor Swaziland).

  14. Nick Gotts says

    equating the two is a particularly cheap dodge – pocketnerd@12

    Yeah, but you’ve got to make allowances: StevoR’s reserves of knowledge and intelligence won’t stretch to expensive dodges!

  15. says

    Here’s Sullivan’s take, as quoted in Yahoo News:

    Large swathes of the Israeli corporate and political establishment have extremely close ties to Russia, in the wake of the post-Soviet influx, and the Russian immigrants are among the most hardline with respect to the Palestinians.

    So yeah, my very offhand guess wasn’t that far off the mark: Israel, like Ukraine and many other former SSRs, has a significant ethnic-Russian voting bloc demanding their government support Russian interests.

  16. colnago80 says

    Re Nick Gotts @ #13

    I think that your rational is true as far as it goes. However, Bibi’s appeasement of Russia is also because he wants Putin to temper his support for Iran and Assad in Syria.

    Re Raging Bee @ #8

    Apparently, Bee hasn’t been reading this blog very carefully in the past few weeks. Brayton has put up a number of posts of fuckken born-agains praising Putin for his anti-gay actions. The neo-cons couldn’t care less about issues such as same sex marriage (Mr. neo-con himself, Dick Cheney, favors same sex marriage)..

  17. D. C. Sessions says

    No: the only reason American neo-cons like Israel is because they perceive it as the vanguard of the white bourgeoisie showing these uppity dark-skinned proles who the real rulers of the planet are.

    Reasons are very rarely singular.

    You can also add the fact that the Israeli military subsidy is a significant line-item in total military hardware spending. This makes the “defense” industries happy, and what makes them happy is important to neocons.

  18. Who Cares says

    Aside from what has been mentioned about why Israel might do this here are a few more possibilities/reasons.
    Israel (or rather the the faction represented by Bibi) has had some setbacks in getting what they want from the US in the last year or so. This is tit for tat from their perspective, you didn’t support us so we won’t support you.
    It is also an attempt at starting a bidding war between the USA and the USSR (yep the USSR not Russia). Basically a con to get the USA pony up more support for Israel.

  19. says

    ISRAEL WOULD HAVE VOTED AGAINST RUSSIA BUT THEY WERE AFRAID THEYD END UP IN OBAMAS FEMA CAMPS “COVERED” BY OBAMACARE!
    WITH THE MOM JEANS WEARING WEAK KNEED TYRANT OBAMA IN CHARGE OUR ONLY HOPE FOR THE REDEFEAT OF COMMUNISM IS A GOOD FREEDOM LOVING AMERICAN PATRIOT LIKE MR PUTIN WHO BOTH REPRESENTS EVERYTHING WE ARE FOR AND ALSO AGAINST!

  20. says

    Apparently, Bee hasn’t been reading this blog very carefully in the past few weeks. Brayton has put up a number of posts of fuckken born-agains praising Putin for his anti-gay actions. The neo-cons couldn’t care less about issues such as same sex marriage (Mr. neo-con himself, Dick Cheney, favors same sex marriage).

    Okay, colnago, since you’ve been reading this blog so much more dilligently than I have, you can point me to the bit where all those neo-cons explicitly disagreed and fought with the religious nuts on some significant aspect of US foreign policy.

  21. nrdo says

    @ D. C. Sessions
    Agreed. It’s huge oversimplification to assume racism is the only or even the predominant reason reason.

    Obviously, I strongly oppose the Neocon and current Netanyahu Gov’t policies, but I have to admit that they are right about one thing. Russia has spent a lot of resources in the Mid-East and, over the past few years, has been far more effective than the US has in shaping events. They have simply been outplaying Obama in foreign policy. Israel’s decision not to antagonize Russia is rather obvious from a rational point of view.

  22. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @7. blf :

    And in the first four comments, we have the fake equivalence of objecting to the actions of the Israeli state with antisemitism.

    Do we? Really? I don’t think so.

    Criticizing Israel is not, a aprori, antisemitism; nor should Israel be immune to criticism.

    Did I ever say otherwise? No I didn’t.

    Yes, there are legitimate criticisms of Israel to be made on occasion – and then there’s also the usual Israel-bashing with heavy anti-Semitic / Judeaophobic undercurrent from the usual pro-Islam lobby on FTB. Thees are not the same things.

    @14. Nick Gotts-noclue : Wow. Baseless personal insults form you how very, um, unsurprising. My knowledge and intelligence beats yours anyhow. As you’ve shown on another thread here Nicks Gottsnoclue :

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2014/04/16/none-dare-call-it-torture/#comment-315677

    you can barely even read basic english.

    Oh & I’d beat you in any fair quiz on history especially Israeli history any day asswipe.

    @12. pocketnerd :

    ZaraStevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!,

    hah! I like that un.

    Criticism of Israel’s policies and politics is not antisemitism, ..

    Nor did I say it was. If it was *actually* just that and not, y’know, the usual anti-Semitic shit we do see all too fucking often from the anti-Jewish bigots commenting on FTB who just love their woman-mutilating, women-murdering woman oppressing, Jihad-fatwah and riot lovin’, uber-ultra mega-super-hyper-lunatic-batshit-rightwing Islam.

    ..and equating the two is a particularly cheap dodge.

    Plus of course NOT what I was in fact doing or suggesting if people actually read my comments with falsely attributing malice and shit that just ain’t there for a change.

    Funny how Israel always gets singled out for disproportionate and ignorant attack when we’ve got, y’know, Syria to its north and Saudi Arabia to its south, Iraq to its east and so on isn’t it? Which nations have worse human rights and deserve more legitimate criticism eh I wonder? Fucken hyocrites.

  23. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    D’oh! That’s :

    if people actually read my comments without falsely attributing malice and shit that just ain’t there for a change.

    Natch.

  24. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    PS. Yes I know Jordan (a.k.a. the actual Palestinain or Arab state specially carved off from them back in the old~ish days) is east of israel -and Iraqis aso eats of it too just after Jordan which ain’t no paragon of human rights either.

    (Bonus fun fact : Jordan has massacred more “Palestinians” than Israel has back when the PLO under unlamented terrorist leader turned dictator Yasser Arafat tried to take that nation over in the 1970s. Bet ya Nick Gottsnoclue didn’t know that one! ;-P )

    Thought for the day : Is the world really so lacking in nasty oppressive, menacing and terrorist supporting Islamist dictatorships that it really needs another one?

    Israel has already donated two thirds of its original “mandate” land to create an Arab state – Jordan – should they really be asked to give up even more land (of which it has fuck all anyhow) to people who have turned down every fucking peace offer ever made and fired rockets at Israel from the land they were given back? Seriously?

  25. dingojack says

    Stevo – “As if the world or anywhere needs more Judaeophobia. It doesn’t.”

    You’re right, of course — if you’re going to be afraid of ancient Roman Provinces – Moesiaphobia!

    ;) Dingo

  26. says

    Israel has already donated two thirds of its original “mandate” land to create an Arab state – Jordan…

    Israel was fully in control of all the land now known as Jordan, and willingly gave it all away when they came from Europe to take most of Palestine? Wow, who knew?

  27. pocketnerd says

    Thus Spake ZaraStevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!, #22:

    hah! I like that un.

    Heh. Glad you like it. I occasionally worry that it’s yet another tedious attempt to be clever on the internet. (… which of course it is, but I’m hoping it’s at least a clever tedious attempt to be clever on the internet.)

    Criticism of Israel’s policies and politics is not antisemitism

    Nor did I say it was. If it was *actually* just that and not, y’know, the usual anti-Semitic shit we do see all too fucking often from the anti-Jewish bigots commenting on FTB who just love their woman-mutilating, women-murdering woman oppressing, Jihad-fatwah and riot lovin’, uber-ultra mega-super-hyper-lunatic-batshit-rightwing Islam.

    So I guess when you posted: “Oh well, I’m sure they’ll be plenty of Israel blaming and bashing here on this thread” you weren’t actually referring to any “Israel blaming and bashing here on this thread.” You were just declaring in advance that anybody who criticizes Israel must be, a priori, an irrational hater and a bigot.

    And admittedly the only blogs here I consistently read are Pharyngula and Dispatches, but I haven’t seen these “anti-Jewish bigots commenting on FTB who just love their woman-mutilating, women-murdering woman oppressing, Jihad-fatwah and riot lovin’, uber-ultra mega-super-hyper-lunatic-batshit-rightwing Islam.” Perhaps you could provide a link to a few such posters? (Nota bene: It won’t do merely to cite somebody who doesn’t hate Muslims as much as you think he should. To support your assertion, you’ll need nothing less than an explicit endorsement of “woman-mutilating, women-murdering woman oppressing, Jihad-fatwah and riot lovin’, uber-ultra mega-super-hyper-lunatic-batshit-rightwing Islam.”)

    Funny how Israel always gets singled out for disproportionate and ignorant attack when we’ve got, y’know, Syria to its north and Saudi Arabia to its south, Iraq to its east and so on isn’t it? Which nations have worse human rights and deserve more legitimate criticism eh I wonder? Fucken hyocrites.

    Ahhh, yes, the good old NABA argument. “You aren’t allowed to criticize us because we’re Not As Bad As those other guys!” I’ll oppose injustice wherever I find it, thank you very much.

  28. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    PPS. No I’m not saying kill or mistreat the “Palestinians” living in Judea and Samaria either.

    Give them a choice – agree to live peacefully in Israel as Israeli Arab citizens – who do better than most Arab citizens elsewwhere btw – or emigrate with compensation to an Arab nation of their choosing.

    Break the law in Israel by attacking it and you lose that choice by your own actionsand get deported tothe nearest Arab nation. Fair deal no?

    Certainly fairer and far kinder than anything the Arabs ever intended or offered their Jewish populations a.k.a. the Shephardim.

    (Look that up for yourself Nick Gottsnoclue and other ignormani.)

  29. Artor says

    StevoR, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you have some citations for this?

    “…and then there’s also the usual Israel-bashing with heavy anti-Semitic / Judeaophobic undercurrent from the usual pro-Islam lobby on FTB.”

  30. nrdo says

    @ StevoR

    I think you’ve completely missed the subtlety involved here. There are definitely instances where criticism of Israel is couched anti-semitism, but I don’t detect much of that in the participants in this thread.

    I would also point out that although Jordan was created to house a certain population of Arabs, the population living in Gaza and the West Bank is distinct and has been been made that way, in part, by Israel itself. If the Palestinian population elects to become independent peacefully, there is a very strong moral and pragmatic argument to allowing them to do so.

  31. Nick Gotts says

    StevoR,

    Bonus fun fact : Jordan has massacred more “Palestinians” than Israel has back when the PLO under unlamented terrorist leader turned dictator Yasser Arafat tried to take that nation over in the 1970s. Bet ya Nick Gottsnoclue didn’t know that one!

    You are, as ever, wrong: I followed this dreadful event on the news at the time. But it’s interesting, and of course revolting, that you regard this massacre as a “fun fact”.

    Israel has already donated two thirds of its original “mandate” land to create an Arab state – Jordan

    Now that’s a display of ignorance that is truly impressive! Well done, StevoR! You set a mark at which other ignoramuses will tilt in vain! Israel, dolt, didn’t exist until 1948, so it can’t possibly have donated anything to anyone before that date. Here is a map of the UN plan for partitioning “mandatory Palestine” (i.e., the area of the League of Nations Palestine mandate to Britain) between a Jewish and an Arab state. It’s easy to see that it does not include any part of Jordan. Jordan did, contrary to international law, annex the West Bank after the first Arab-Israeli war

    Give them [Palestinians living on the West Bank] a choice – agree to live peacefully in Israel as Israeli Arab citizens – who do better than most Arab citizens elsewwhere btw – or emigrate with compensation to an Arab nation of their choosing.

    Amazing! You’ve surpassed your previous best! This is ignorance as an art form! Israel has absolutely no intention of offering the West Bank Palestinians Israeli citizenship, because this would dilute the Jewish identity of the state. Nor does Israel intend, at least in the forseeable future, to annex the entire West Bank, since that would mean either diluting the Jewishness of Israel, or expelling millions of people. Indeed, what you are proposing here is close to the “One state solution” which has at times been supported by many Palestinians, but never by any significant number of Jewish Israelis!

  32. eric says

    SteveO @28:

    Give them a choice – agree to live peacefully in Israel as Israeli Arab citizens – who do better than most Arab citizens elsewwhere btw…

    My understanding is that most Israelis today would not countenence such a solution at all, because then the population of Israel would be overwhelmingly Islamic and the state would lose its Jewish nature. I am not entirely sympathetic to that argument, but I recognize that ensuring that there was a secure homeland for Jewish peoples was one of the stated purposes for founding Israel in the first place, so I can understand how many Israelis might object to changing the ‘State of Israel’ in a manner that gives up that core principle. IOW I empathize, even if I don’t necessarily agree with them and am more likely to agree with you.

    …or emigrate with compensation to an Arab nation of their choosing. Break the law in Israel by attacking it and you lose that choice by your own actionsand get deported tothe nearest Arab nation. Fair deal no?

    No, its not a fair deal, any more than taking someone whose family has lived and grown up in Boston for the past 70 years and exiling them to Ireland because their last name happens to be O’Toole is fair. Not only is that unfair to the prospective exiles, its also unfair to Ireland because the US has no right to use another country as a dumping ground for our undersirables. And the same goes for Israel – they have no right to use other countries as a dumping ground for the residents of their country that they don’t like. Sure, if some individual immigrates to Israel illegally, its fair and legal to send them back to their country of origin. But a lot of palestinians are not in that situation. They were born and grew up in Israel or the occupied territories. It is not fair to either them or the countries surrounding Israel to exile them to some place they didn’t actually come from. In fact it strikes me a vaguely racist – deciding that some group of people who has lived in a place their entire lives doesn’t belong there any more because of the way they talk or look or what gods they follow.

  33. laurentweppe says

    Israel has absolutely no intention of offering the West Bank Palestinians Israeli citizenship, because this would dilute the Jewish identity of the state

    Worse: they’d start voting for left-wing politicians who then would dilute the oligarchic identity of the state

  34. nrdo says

    @ Nick Gotts

    Israel has absolutely no intention of offering the West Bank Palestinians Israeli citizenship, because this would dilute the Jewish identity of the state. Nor does Israel intend, at least in the forseeable future, to annex the entire West Bank, since that would mean either diluting the Jewishness of Israel, or expelling millions of people . . .

    That’s not true in every case. There are some Jewish Israelis I’ve encountered who, quite astonishingly, value the land in the West Bank more than they do the secular foundations of the state (a haven from persecution etc.) and have articulated a desire to annex and integrate the Palestinians, citizenship and all.

    One of the persistent problems in the conflict is the fact that the two sides often don’t know exactly what they want. The fundamentalists all dream of ethnically cleansing the land for “their side” but they are only able to do so by mentally hiding from the overwhelming reality that neither population is going anywhere.

  35. nrdo says

    @ laurentweppe

    Worse: they’d start voting for left-wing politicians who then would dilute the oligarchic identity of the state

    If the Palestinians could be reliably expected to vote for progressive and humanist causes in Israel, I’d welcome plenty of them. Unfortunately, there’s no indication that they would. I don’t mean to personally disparage them; but they have a terrible track record of choosing leaders.

    Coming back to reality, while the oligarchic concentration of wealth is becoming a problem in Israel, like it is throughout much of the world, to say that the state is oligarchic in its identity is quite a stretch. The US is much further along the path to oligarchy given its weaker tradition of social welfare.

  36. says

    “The usual pro-Islam lobby on FTB?” Seriously, StevoR? The harshest non-flat-out-bigoted attacks on Islam I’ve ever read come mostly from FtBers like PZ and Ed — and even more from other FtBers like Avicenna, Myriam and Taslima! How fucking stupid do you have to be to think this is a “pro-Islam” crowd?

    Congratulations, StevoR, you just replaced SLC1 as the #1 Stupid Likudnik Chickenhawk! I guess he’ll have to change his handle to SLC2.

  37. says

    …and then there’s also the usual Israel-bashing with heavy anti-Semitic / Judeaophobic undercurrent…

    Make up your mind, dumbass — are we hateful toward Semitic peoples, or toward residents of the Roman province of Judea?

  38. Nick Gotts says

    nrdo@35,

    Thanks for that information, but I’d be very surprised if the Israeli Jews who want to incorporate the West Bank with its current inhabitants that you mention, make up a significant proportion of the electorate.

  39. Marius says

    Of course StevoR is the kind of piece of shit who puts Palestinians in scare quotes. Genocidal scumbag.

  40. colnago80 says

    Re Marius @ #41

    Of course, Marius is in favor of giving Jews in Israel the Eichmann treatment.

  41. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @41. Marius : “Palestinian” is in quotes because its a made up name for a group that previous to about 1970 were simply referred to as Arabs. Most of them came form Syria others incl. Arafat the PLO terrorist leader and later dictator came form Egypt.

    As for supporting genocide – no I don’t.

    Nor do I resort to ridiculously inaccurate, laughably silly, personal insults as you clearly like to do. Eg right there.

    @ 38. Raging Bee :

    …and then there’s also the usual Israel-bashing with heavy anti-Semitic / Judeaophobic undercurrent…

    Make up your mind, dumbass — are we hateful toward Semitic peoples, or toward residents of the Roman province of Judea?

    Some of the commenters here hate Jewish people and especially love to demonstrate this by bashing Israel.

    Jewish people (and now I and erstwhile then Israelis) are both Semitic people and residents of a once Roman province known as Judea.

    Judea is also the correct name for part of the the so called “west bank” which is a derogatory term misleadingly implying Jordanian ownership of Israeli land. The other part of the “west bank” is Samaria from whence the proverbial Good Samaritan hailed.

    @ 37. Raging Bee :

    “The usual pro-Islam lobby on FTB?” Seriously, StevoR? The harshest non-flat-out-bigoted attacks on Islam I’ve ever read come mostly from FtBers like PZ and Ed — and even more from other FtBers like Avicenna, Myriam and Taslima! How fucking stupid do you have to be to think this is a “pro-Islam” crowd?

    How “fucking stupid” are *you* Raging Bee to assume – so very wrongly – that I was referring to any of them?

    The pro-islam lobby on FTB I refer to is the group of pro-Muslim, anti-Semitic Israel haters who often Comment on FTB blogs expressing these anti-Israeli, anti-Western, pro-Islamic opinions. Guess what? You are clearly a member -and that pro-islam lobby is notorious for its stupidity and inability to read and comprehend basic written english – as you have just yourself demonstrated right above thereby proving my point for me. Thankyou.

  42. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @36. nrdo :

    If the Palestinians could be reliably expected to vote for progressive and humanist causes (1) in Israel, I’d (2) welcome plenty of them. Unfortunately, there’s no indication that they would. I don’t mean to personally disparage them; but they have a terrible track record of choosing leaders. (3)

    (1) Given a choice in an election the brainwashed “Palestinian” fanatics famously voted for Hamas, an extremist uberright wing Jihadist terrorisist group. This shows what sort of causes they support and which way they vote – for mass murder and genocide against Israel and for Jihadism and brutal misognist homophobic theocratic Sharia law. Its also why there shouldn’t be any “palestinian “state granted to them even assuming they actually want one as they claim which the evidence – their continual rejection of a peaceful state of their own in pretty much every peace offer ever – illustrates.

    (2) Are you an Israeli then? If not, maybe leave it to those who are to decide who lives in their nation. Israelis and Jews who make Aliyah are the ones who should ultimately control the demographics of their land.

    (3) Yes -on the “Palestinians” always choosing their leaders (among many other things) terribly badly we are in full agreement. They sure do!

    @33. eric :

    StevoR @28: “Give them a choice – agree to live peacefully in Israel as Israeli Arab citizens – who do better than most Arab citizens elsewhere btw…”

    My understanding is that most Israelis today would not countenence such a solution at all, because then the population of Israel would be overwhelmingly Islamic and the state would lose its Jewish nature…

    If -and its a big If the majority of “palestinians” could bring themselves to make the choice to <bIlive peacefully in Israel as Israeli Arab citizens given their past records. Making this choice would mean giving up the hatred for Israel and Jews and agreeing to accept Israel’s right to exist as Jewish nation with Jewish laws and a Jewish identity. I think the majority would instead find themselves unable to accept that condition and opt instead for compensation and resettlement elsewhere just as most Indian Muslims opted to resettle in Pakistan post Partition of India.

    Perhaps the sole biggest reason the “Palestinians” have suffered so long is really in many ways down to the refusal of the surrounding Arab nations* to accept reality and incorporate these Arabs of the former UN/ UK Mandate area into their own nations as their nationals.

    * Nations who, never forget called for these Arabs (as they were then and till bout 1970~ish known) to leave their then homes and fields so as not to get in the way of their great Jew-murdering attempt in the 1948 War of Israeli Independence in the first place. The Arab side is created the “Palestinian problem in the first place and thus bears ethical responsibility for it and really should fix it.

    No, its not a fair deal, ..

    Okay. But its fairer and better than almost all the other alternatives certainly the realistic ones of status quo followed by more war and bloodshed. As for nations taking exiles and transportees, it may be sad but its part of the historical reality of many nations and one that in a few generations given a shift of mindset it becomes just part of history e.g. convicts to Australia, Irish emigration to the USA and elsewhere following the potato famine, Greek and Turkish population swaps during the liberation of Greece , etc ..

    @31. Modusoperandi : Shorter StevoR: “But Muslins are worse!”

    No. That’s too short and simplified.

    Also wrong – mis-spelt & not what I said or meant here.

    Although can you really say the Muslim / Islamist / Arab side isn’t worse here?

  43. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @29. Artor :

    StevoR, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you have some citations for this?

    “…and then there’s also the usual Israel-bashing with heavy anti-Semitic / Judeaophobic undercurrent from the usual pro-Islam lobby on FTB.”

    Plenty can be found if you actually read and thin about any thread mentioning Israel and its struggle to survive the constant attacks on it by the Islamic world. There’s a group of commenters who always single out Israel for special criticism and treatment -something Jewish people who’ve had to put up with this sortof shit for millennia have well and truly had more than enough of. If youhaven';t seen it already, you haven’t been here for long or had your eyes open much. One example is the pro-Islam lobbyist here who once stated flat out Israel doesn’t deserve to and should not exist.

    @32. Nick Gotts(noclue) :

    “Bonus fun fact : Jordan has massacred more “Palestinians” than Israel has back when the PLO under unlamented terrorist leader turned dictator Yasser Arafat tried to take that nation over in the 1970s. Bet ya Nick Gottsnoclue didn’t know that one!” -StevoR

    You are, as ever, wrong: (1) I followed this dreadful event on the news at the time.(2) But it’s interesting, and of course revolting, that you regard this massacre as a “fun fact”. (3)

    (1) About what? You not knowing I presume you mean? I’ll charitably take it you won’t argue with the historical reality that the Jordanians did murder more “palestinians” than Israel there. Okay good.

    So you’ve just ignored ever since this reality whilst knowing it and still single out Israel not Jordan for special venom ever since. What then does that make you NickGottsnoclue?

    Oh & thankyou for providing one more citation for my answer to # 29 artor above.

    (2) Which side were you backing back at the time NGnc? The PLO terrorists trying to take over Jordan or the Jordanians killing the poor “palestinian” terrorists? Just curious.

    (3) Using the expression “Fun fact” was sarcasm. You do get sarcasm don’t ya, noclue? Oh wait, you don’t? No, it wasn’t a “fun” event – although it is definitely fact – so much so that even you won’t dispute it :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

    Israel, dolt, didn’t exist until 1948, (1) so it can’t possibly have donated anything to anyone before that date. Here is a ( later -ed) map of the (2) UN plan for partitioning “mandatory Palestine” (i.e., the area of the League of Nations Palestine mandate to Britain) between a Jewish and an Arab state. (3) It’s easy to see that it does not include any part of Jordan. (4) Jordan did, contrary to international law, annex the West Bank after the first Arab-Israeli war. (5)

    (1) Well ya got me there I guess. Yes, okay, Israel as such didn’t carve off two thirds of the Mandate it would eventually have into the separate Arab state . The British rulers of the land now Israel and the then-Mandate did instead.

    (2) As you can see from this earlier map here that is what I was actually referring to – not your later one – see :

    http: // en (dot) wikipedia (dot) org / wiki/ File : PalestineAndTransjordan (dot) png

    (Nb. To avoid moderation link is altered to *not* hypertext – modify by removing spaces and putting dots where indicated for the link.Or see “emirate of Jordan” wikipage, map at right hand side.)

    So, the Mandate was split back in 1921 and the Arabs did get a very generous 2/3rds of it which was really my point. The Arabs already got one state out of the division of what is really a very small area already. They don’t need another division and Israel hasn’t got the defensible borders and sufficient land for it.

    (3) Note the UN partition plan was for a Jewish *and* Arab state – Israel (then still termed Palestine’ by the British for the Jewish people in their traditional, continuing and to them sacred homeland and Jordan with most of the land for the Arabs who, actually also had plenty of other lands already too.

    What happened next was that the Jewish people accepted the unfair anti-them partition plan even though it – in that and later incarnations – gave them far less territory; but the Arab side rejected the partition plan and chose to attempt another genocide against the Jewish people instead. The Arabs tore up the peace plans , rejected the notion of getting along and so blew it and lost out totally. Not just once either but repeatedly time after time in all the Arab-Israeli wars.

    Conclusion : If the “palestinians” really just wanted a state of their own they’d have long since achieved it by now. They’ve blown more than enough chances to show that isn’t what they really want incl. turning down n about 95% of their ambit claim being offered by Bill Clinton and Ehud Barack to Arafat back in the late 1990’s early 2000’s.

    (4) Its easy to see you’ve selectively cherry-picked by choosing the later map to suit your argument in a piece of typical pro-Muslim anti-Israeli sophistry that ignores historical reality.

    (5) Wow, two things you’ve got right in one comment – a new record for you I think Gotts-no-clue! Yes, Jordan annexed Judea and Samaria which it calls the west bank referring to the Jordan river where Jordan holds the east bank and then more.

    So – what does that (& Egypt’s simultaneous occupation of Gaza at that period) tell you about how serious the Arab-Islamic side is about creating a “Palestinan” state? Yeah, they seriously don’t want it either and are just out to destroy Israel. If they wanted to create “palestine” for the PLO and later Hamas to rule independently they would have done it between 1948 and 1969. They chose not to. Instead they (still) sought to “drive the Jews into sea” (their rhetoric) using the Arabs of the ex-Mandate territory as their weak excuse and later for convenience and debating purposes named them “palestinians” a nation that has never been and never really exists as a supposed justification which even they clearly don’t fully believe in.

    And to think useful idiots like you keep falling for it eh Gottsnoclue!?

  44. dingojack says

    Stevo – “Are you an Israeli then? If not, maybe leave it to those who are to decide who lives in their nation. Israelis and Jews who make Aliyah are the ones who should ultimately control the demographics of their land“.

    Firstly, you’re not Israeli. Guess you don’t get to have an opinion, then either. How sad.
    Secondly, that smacks just a little of “we decide who comes to our country and the circumstances in which they come”, still pining for Little Johnny are you, Stevo?
    Thirdly, and most importantly — I notice you haven’t mentioned any Ancient Roman Provinces in a while, could it be a manifestation of the dreaded Moesiaphobia !

    :) Dingo

  45. says

    How “fucking stupid” are *you* Raging Bee to assume – so very wrongly – that I was referring to any of them?

    I notice you still haven’t specified who you WERE referring to. Nor have you cited any actual examples of “anti-Israeli, anti-Western, pro-Islamic opinions” from any of us. Can’t back up any of your crybaby rantings, can you? What a non-surprise!

  46. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @46. dingojack :

    Firstly, you’re not Israeli. Guess you don’t get to have an opinion, then either. How sad.

    Not sad, just fair since its Israel’s country and they have to live with the consequences of their decisions -and I didn’t say people couldn’t have opinions just they couldn’t decide for Israel.

    Secondly, that smacks just a little of “we decide who comes to our country and the circumstances in which they come”, still pining for Little Johnny are you, Stevo?

    No. Couldn’t stand him actually at the time and think the current (& Howard’s past) policy on refugees seeking asylum in Australia is an utter disgrace and horrendous. I do think we should welcome and treat refugees (yes, even Muslim ones) humanely and well and certainly don’t think they should be locked up and abused and hidden from our knowledge as they now are.

    I think that’s a very different situation to the one regarding Israel. Israel is there as a refuge for those who do make Aliyah and for the safety of Jewish people around the globe. It too is a nation of refugees and is seeking peace and survival and better lives. Those who would destroy it, well, they shouldn’t be allowed to do so.

    Thirdly, and most importantly — I notice you haven’t mentioned any Ancient Roman Provinces in a while, could it be a manifestation of the dreaded Moesiaphobia !

    Oh what aGaul~ing issue Ibearia that no more. So to remedy :

    Bithniya, Transoxiana, Mauretania, Aegyptus, Syria (hey that’s ones still around) Asia Minor (that was where that term originated right?), Africa (hey that one’s grown from original size a bit – continentally actually!), Italia, Roma et Byzantia!

    Ah that’s better. Pax Romana again! ;-)

  47. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @ 47. Raging Bee : Gee, still having trouble reading I see!

    I specifically named you and NickGootsnoclue – citing his double standards regarding Israel vs Jordan in my #45 to his #32. I’ve also noted “One example is the pro-Islam lobbyist here who once stated flat out Israel doesn’t deserve to and should not exist.” I think I recall who that was but I could be misremembering so I won’t name xhiem here. Ing on Pharygnula is another pro-Islam lobby member I’ll name for y’all from past encounters.

    Its pretty clear when you look at any thread dealing with Israel there’s a group who always disproportionately attack Israel when it comes to foreign affairs and self-defence without ever fairly considering the world’s one and only Jewish nation’s side of the issue.

    Hint : If some group of douchebags (eg. Hamas) are firing rockets at you or using homicide -suicide bombers to target people on buses, in restaurants, in marketplaces, etc .. in an attempt to exterminate your entire nation; then you damn well have a right to return fire and stop them by whatever means are necessary.You don’t have to – and nobody should expect or demand you – just roll over and die or seek to cravenly appease the douchebags firing fucken rockets at innocent people.

  48. Nick Gotts says

    You’re lying scum, StevoR, as most people here realise. You have not produced a particle of evidence for any commenters here being antisemitic.

    So you’ve just ignored ever since this reality whilst knowing it and still single out Israel not Jordan for special venom ever since. What then does that make you NickGottsnoclue?

    No, liar, I have not “ignored it”. It makes no sense whatever to accuse people of “ignoring” an event because they don’t bring it up irrelevantly, as you do.

    still single out Israel not Jordan for special venom ever since.

    You can’t produce a single example of me singling out Israel for special venom, liar.

    Which side were you backing back at the time NGnc? The PLO terrorists trying to take over Jordan or the Jordanians killing the poor “palestinian” terrorists?

    Actually, I was on the side of the mass of Palestinians who were innocent victims – neither that of the corrupt and brutal Jordanian regime, nor that of the corrupt and brutal PLO leadership. But you, of course, regard even Palestinian babies as terrorists, as you show quite clearly in the quote above.

    Well ya got me there I guess. Yes, okay, Israel as such didn’t carve off two thirds of the Mandate it would eventually have into the separate Arab state . The British rulers of the land now Israel and the then-Mandate did instead.

    Even if this were accurate (see below), it would completely refute both your claim that Israel generously gave away 2/3 of the mandate, and your claim not to be an a complete ignoramus about the history of the area.

    As you can see from this earlier map here that is what I was actually referring to

    Which clearly shows that Palestine and Transjordan were separate territories, although both were allocated to Britain under one League of Nations mandate. The population of Transjordan was overwhelmingly Arab, and there could have been no possible justification for allocating any part of it to the Jewish state which the mandate envisaged.

    Note the UN partition plan was for a Jewish *and* Arab state – Israel (then still termed Palestine’ by the British for the Jewish people in their traditional, continuing and to them sacred homeland and Jordan with most of the land for the Arabs who, actually also had plenty of other lands already too.

    You show your fuckwitted ignorance once again. The UN partition plan for Palestine did not propose dividing Palestine between Israel (which didn’t yet exist) and Jordan (which had been an independent state since 1946), but between a new Jewish state and a new Arab state.

    Conclusion : If the “palestinians” really just wanted a state of their own they’d have long since achieved it by now. They’ve blown more than enough chances to show that isn’t what they really want incl. turning down n about 95% of their ambit claim being offered by Bill Clinton and Ehud Barack to Arafat back in the late 1990′s early 2000′s.

    A typical distortion of events from you. It is indeed a tragedy that the 2000-2001 negotiations did not lead to a settlement, but the story is much more complicated than your caricature. Both sides accepted the “Clinton parameters”, “with reservations”. The parameters were not accompanied by a map, and Clinton’s own Negotiations Support Unit (NSU) had warned him “that the proposals in general are too vague and unclear to form an acceptable framework for an agreement” (this is from the wikipedia article on “The Clinton Parameters”, which also notes that a 2011 poll suggests “that 58% of Israelis and 50% of Palestinians supported a two-state solution based on the Clinton Parameters”). Attempts to bridge remaining differences at the Taba summit ended because of the approaching Israeli election, which was won by Ariel Sharon, who chose not to continue negotiations. The best academic article I can find is here; it criticises both Israeli and Palestinian accounts of the negotations.

    Its easy to see you’ve selectively cherry-picked by choosing the later map to suit your argument in a piece of typical pro-Muslim anti-Israeli sophistry that ignores historical reality.

    That’s hilarious from a fuckwitted bigot who gets the most elementary facts about the British mandate and the UN partition plan completely wrong – see above. What’s more, the map you refer to shows the same borders for Palestine as the one I used.

    and later for convenience and debating purposes named them “palestinians” a nation that has never been and never really exists

    I do not dispute that Arab states have used and abused the Palestinians for propaganda purposes, nor have I ever said otherwise. Probably the best way of creating a “nation” – i.e., a population who regard themselves as having a distinct identity and in many cases want their own state – is to persecute them. If a Palestinian nationality did not exist before 1948, the sufferings of Palestinians at the hands of both Israel and the Arab states have created one. No-one but lying bigots like you now disputes the existence of such a nationality, nor their right to self-determination.

  49. colnago80 says

    Re Nick Gotts @ #50

    As usual, the lying limey fuckface refuses to accept the real reason why the negotiations at Camp David and Taba failed. The brutal fact is that the Clinton/Ross plan which would have given the Palestinians 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip was rejected by Arafat because he would have been required, as a part of the settlement to drop the demand that inhabitants of refugee camps be resettled in Israel. No government of Israel could accept such a demand and stay in power for as much as an hour. And in fact, contrary to your lies, there is a map reflecting the Clinton/Ross bridging proposal which is shown on the attached link. It’s the figure labeled Map Showing Clinton Ideas for Palestinian-Israeli Peace Settlement, December 2000.

    The real culprit here is fuckken Great Britain who behaved in Palestine as they behaved in the Indian Subcontinent, Ireland, and Canada. They used communal disputes between Muslims and Hindus in India, Jews and Muslims in Palestine, Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, and English and French speaking inhabitants in Canada to solidify their control of those areas via the well known strategy of divide and conquer. With an assist from their former colony in North America which intervened in WW1 and WW2 to pull Britain’s chestnuts out of the fire.

    http://goo.gl/3W4uz8

  50. says

    I think I recall who that was but I could be misremembering so I won’t name xhiem here.

    In other words, you have nothing. No examples, no case.

    Ing on Pharygnula is another pro-Islam lobby member I’ll name for y’all from past encounters.

    Please cite and quote examples of “pro-Islam” comments by Ing, or admit you’re full of shit.

  51. says

    Oh, and as long as we’re talking about how best to address Israel’s legitimate security interests, here’s my proposal: Israel should withdraw its settlers, and its military and security forces, behind that big border fence they built. The fence itself is de-facto demarcation of a national border, so they might as well follow through on their own actions and respect the border they chose to demark.

  52. says

    Hint : If some group of douchebags (eg. Hamas) are firing rockets at you or using homicide -suicide bombers to target people on buses, in restaurants, in marketplaces, etc .. in an attempt to exterminate your entire nation; then you damn well have a right to return fire…

    Have you noticed that they’ve been “returning fire” for DECADES, and are no more secure for their troubles? You can’t call a policy “right” or “necessary” if it doesn’t work, and does more harm than good.

  53. colnago80 says

    Re Raging Bee @ #53

    The problem is that the route of the fence intrudes East of the old Green Line, which was the ceasefire line after the 1949 War of Independence. It should be noted that Sharon withdrew entirely from the Gaza Strip in 2005 behind a fence. How has that worked out?

    Re Raging Bee @ #54

    Maybe they haven’t been aggressive enough. Possible an application of Hama Rules to the Gaza Strip might have done the trick.

  54. says

    You’re still drooling and babbling about “Hama rules” after the regime that invented them got mired in a bloody unending civil war? You really need to update your bigoted genocidal talking-points once in awhile. Thank you for inadvertently admitting where your brain-dead bloodthirsty mindset is likely to lead.

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