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Aug 18 2013

Klayman: Obama Using NSA to ‘Make Whitey Pay’

When Larry Klayman, the worst lawyer in America not named Mat Staver or Orly Taitz, gets his dander up, picks up his keyboard and starts firing blindly, there are few things more amusing. In his latest column, titled Obama’s Mein Kampf, he says that the whole NSA surveillance thing is about making white people pay reparations.

A growing number of patriots – white and black – people of faith, Christians, Jews and concerned citizens are in the process of waking up from their long slumber of the last five years in particular. We are no longer willing to be made to feel ashamed of our heritage and who we are and are thus losing our sense of guilt that Obama and his ilk have tried to instill upon us, and are preparing to legally fight back.

In this regard, perhaps it was Obama’s bigoted remarks after the George Zimmerman trial – where he effectively rejected the jury’s verdict of not guilty with a statement that he could have been Trayvon Martin 35 years ago – that truly unmasked his hateful intentions to make “whitey” and the others pay back “his people” for prior discrimination. And, indeed, this is what is at the heart of NSA-gate; a means to keep whitey and whitey’s allies down as Obama dismantles and deconstructs the nation by having them pay their “fair share” in reparations.

There isn’t even an attempt to tie the two issues together. A classic case of Wingnut Madlibs, just a bunch of catchphrases and buzzwords stitched together with nothing. Funny stuff.

179 comments

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  1. 1
    hunter

    The problem here is two-fold: First, this is what passes on too much of the right for an “argument” (in the formal sense). Second, too many people buy into it.

  2. 2
    Pierce R. Butler

    hunter @ # 1 – The third fold: that the NSA actually does record and datamine all electronic communications.

  3. 3
    dingojack

    But clearly Clayman is right.
    Empathy equals Fascism remember, therefore empathy with a victim equals OMG1! FEmA CAMPS!!! BLACK HELICOPTERS!!! CHEmTRails!!! and etc.
    It’s the way the right-wing mind works* from bad premises, panic.
    Dingo
    ——-
    * defectively, if at all

  4. 4
    garnetstar

    Because those computers know by ESP which communications are made by black, Hispanic, Asian, etc., people and don’t record them. They only keep and datamine the communcations of whites.

  5. 5
    John Pieret

    “made to feel ashamed of our heritage”

    Heaven forfend that we should be ashamed of slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, etc., etc. …

    “effectively rejected the jury’s verdict of not guilty”

    Under a law that made it legal to shoot someone to death rather than to retreat, as he was advised to do by the police.

    “the heart of NSA-gate; a means to keep whitey and whitey’s allies down”

    Whut? Wasn’t it aimed at Muslim terrorists? That’s what the Republicans (and Democrats) have been telling us. Larry is allied with them?

    “dismantles and deconstructs the nation by having them pay their “fair share” in reparations.”

    Which, of course, will easily pass the House of Representative.

    There should be a quantum theory of Klayman’s brain where ideas are dead, alive or connected depending on whether he opens his mouth.

  6. 6
    xmnr

    And what makes Obama EXTRA devious is how he maneuvered George Bush to start the program before he had even entered the Senate.

  7. 7
    jnorris

    The past 50 years of government surveillance was just practice.

  8. 8
    Trebuchet

    Sometimes I wish Obama had even half the power attributed to him by wingnuts. The rest of the time I wish he only had half the power he actually does.

  9. 9
    Don Williams

    1) What’s hilarious about Klayman’s remarks is that a black male has a 29% likelihood of ending up in prison:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males

    2) Of course, they can earn 23 cent per hour working in prison industries so technically it’s not slavery.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries

  10. 10
    Don Williams

    Good thing the liberal Democrats are in charge, huh?

  11. 11
    Don Williams

    I suspect Obama and John Ridley see eye to eye on some things:

    http://www.esquire.com/features/essay/ESQ1206BLACKESSAY_108

    Note the date on RIdley’s “Manifesto.” His two heros had helped George W Bush
    sell an unnecessary war that had killed more black men than the Klan.

  12. 12
    Modusoperandi

    Plus, he has a throne made from skulls. White men’s skulls. I know!

  13. 13
    timgueguen

    Not just any skulls, but the skulls of Rush Limbaugh, Larry Klayman etc. etc. Skulls from their clones, made at Area 51 by Muslims, the clone of Karl Marx, and Satan!.

    Just watch, sooner or later one of these fools will come up with a conspiracy theory not far off from that.

  14. 14
    exdrone

    a means to keep whitey and whitey’s allies down

    I’m sorry, but I’m not fluent in wingnut. Who are “whitey’s allies”? Is he talking about the Latino or Native American power block?

  15. 15
    dan4

    @9: Why does that fact make Klayman’s remarks “hilarious?”

  16. 16
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams

    Hey Donaldo, how about the world rankings of universities showing UC Berkeley at #9 and Utterly Vacuous Assholes at @118? Har de har har, har har. In fact, 3 of the top 10 are in California (Cal Tech, Stanford, and UC Berkeley).

    http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking

  17. 17
    magistramarla

    colnago80 @ #16
    Three cheers for California!

  18. 18
    Don Williams

    1) Oh, come on SLC. The Times also puts Oxford ahead of Stanford, Harvard, MIT,
    Princeton and , of course, Cambridge.

    That is about as hilarious as MINES Paris putting 3 French universities in the
    World’s top 10 and ranking Gettysburg College ahead of the University of
    North Carolina:

    http://www.mines-paristech.fr/Donnees/data03/334-10.-Classements.pdf

    2) I personally think it is more useful to look at discipline. In computer science,
    Carnegie Mellon is ranked 4 whereas Berkeley is a lowly number 7. ha ha ha

    http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2013/computer-science-and-information-systems

  19. 19
    Don Williams

    1) Of course, there is something to be said for the Chinese approach of ranking universities by number of billionaires produced:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_university_ranking_of_billionaire_alumni

    2) In which case, University of Missouri at Columbia — alma mater of Sam Walton whose three heirs are in
    the USA’s 10 Richest billionaires list — should take precedence over Harvard, Princeton and Yale.

  20. 20
    dan4

    Has Don Williams EVER posted a comment that is directly on-topic to a post by Mr. Brayton under which said comment appears?

  21. 21
    Don Williams

    Actually,comments 9-11 were directed at Brayton’s post –although you apparently lack the intelligence to realize that.

    Of course I may be wrong — when Democrats have their hypocrisy pointed out to them, one way they have of dodging the facts is to claim the critic is a “troll’, “off topic”, etc . Falling back on a faux political correctness is plan B. Plan C is to yell “you are a racis!’.

    Comments 18-19 were answering SLC’s post at 16 — since I saw no likelihood of disrupting any intense Socratic debate or grand insights.

  22. 22
    matty1

    Who are “whitey’s allies”?

    I think its a desperate attempt not to sound so absurdly racist by implying that some non-white people (I’m guessing Erik Rush here) are part of ‘our heritage’.

  23. 23
    Modusoperandi

    Having saved up my grand insights I was just about to start some particularly intense Socratical debations, but I was interrupted.

  24. 24
    matty1

    @18 You do know those rankings are compiled by Thomson Reuters not the times right? Also they do give the criteria used so it should be possible to come up with a better criticism than “well they would say that wouldn’t they”.

  25. 25
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #18

    Well, UC Berkeley is ranked 5th in physics while Carnegie Mellon doesn’t make the top 50.

    http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2013/physics

  26. 26
    colnago80

    I have to apologize for hijacking the thread; however, I just couldn’t resist the temptation to to zing ole Donaldo a little.

  27. 27
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #19

    Since the Walton heirs didn’t make their billions themselves but inherited it, it hardly counts. Now Bill Gates went to Harvard but did not graduate. Larry Ellison went to the Un. of Illinois and the Un. of Chicago but did not graduate. Jeff Bezos went to Princeton, Un.. Warren Buffet went to the Un. of Nebraska and Columbia, Un.. Carlos Slim went to the National Autonomous University of Mexico. Of the lesser lights, Michael Dell went to the Un. of Texas but did not graduate.

  28. 28
    Dr X

    exdrone @14:

    I’m sorry, but I’m not fluent in wingnut. Who are “whitey’s allies”? Is he talking about?

    Perhaps he means black wingnuts.

  29. 29
    Subtract Hominem, a product of Nauseam

    Dingo @3

    But clearly Clayman is right.

    Clayman (n.) – a particularly dense strawman.

  30. 30
    d.c.wilson

    dan4@ 15:

    Near as I can tell, Don thinks it’s hilarious that all of this country’s racial disparities did not magically disappear when we elected a black president. I could be wrong, though. Troll speak is not my forte.

  31. 31
    colnago80

    Re d.c.wilson @ #30

    Hey, Afro-American president to be politically correct.

  32. 32
    dan4

    @21: No, comments 9-11 were not really “directed at Ed Brayton’s post” (heck, only one of the three aforementioned comments even mentioned Klayman). They just used Ed’s post as a jumping-off point for your own off-topic agenda.

  33. 33
    Don Williams

    dc Wilson at 30: “did not magically disappear”

    1) Is that a Democrat’s genteel way of ignoring 5 years of black unemployment averaging 15%?

    5 years after a huge percentage of blacks voted to give Democrats the White House, a supermajority in the House and a filibuster proof majority in the Senate?

    Or is mentioning those inconvenient facts “troll speak”? Or noting Cornel West’s recent observation that
    Obama has governed like a “Rockefellar Republican in Blackface”?

    2) Does no one ever notice that when Republicans make idiotic remarks, those remarks are often a distraction away from what is really going on? Gleen Beck ranting about Marxist Obama while Obama is bailing out Wall Street Republicans to the tune of several $Trillion.

    You know –like that fake impeachment of Bill Clinton while Bill Clinton and Republican Senator Phil Gramm were blowing up FDR’s Glass Steagall, passing NAFTA, and urging American’s plutocrats to go on a money hunt in China while screwing the American People?

  34. 34
    Don Williams

    Re SLC’s comments about universities,

    1) Roughly 809,491 black males were incarcerated in 2010
    (248,091 incarcerated in local jails,
    561,400 incarcerated in state or federal prisons,)

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p10.pdf , Appendix Table 12

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/jim11st.pdf Table 6 adjusted for males
    per Female/Male values in same table:
    (283200 x (649,284/741,168) =

    2) Meanwhile, In 2010, there were 81,913 college degrees granted to black males.

    ( 56,171 bachelors, 22,120 masters, 3,622 Phds )

    3) Since it costs more to incarcerate a man than to send him to
    Harvard, I think we see where the corporate profits/ growth industry
    is in Democrat World.

  35. 35
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #33

    Actually, the impeachment was all too real. Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives. He was not convicted in the Senate. Just for ole Donaldo’s edification, impeachment by the House is roughly equivalent to an indictment; removal by the Senate is roughly equivalent to a conviction. And by the way, the impeachment of Clinton was the work of then House Rethuglican majority leader Tom Delay, in retaliation for the impeachment of Richard Nixon.

    Re Don Williams @ #34

    What the fuck does that have to do with the evaluation of Universities? The president graduated from Columbia and obtained his law degree from Harvard.

    By the way, I note that 5 branches of the Un. of California ranked ahead of Utterly Vacuous Assholes (UCB, UCLA, UCSB, UCD, UCI), in addition to the University of Southern California.

  36. 36
    Don Williams

    SLC at 35: Ah, but you overlook the fact that 10 REPUBLICAN SENATORS voted “Not Guilty” –even though Clinton obviously lied through his teeth while under oath.

    The interesting question is — what did they get in exchange?

  37. 37
    d.c.wilson

    1) Is that a Democrat’s genteel way of ignoring 5 years of black unemployment averaging 15%?

    I wouldn’t know, as I am not a democrat, but if you say so.

    We get it. You hold Obama personally responsibly for every unemployed black man in America. I guess it’s a waste of time to ask if you have anything to share that’s actually on topic.

  38. 38
    Don Williams

    Re dan4 at 32:

    1) Brayton is like the guy on the volleyball court who serves the ball — how we play it shows our morals –or lack of them. I sat through the lecture on “Framing” at Howard Dean’s DFA Academy.

    Of course, if you are trying to dishonestly frame the discussion (“Republicans are Big Poops –Democrats are Awesome”) then it is kinda infuriating if someone doesn’t stay with the program. If they lift up the carpet and point to the pile of stinking cat shit underneath.

    2) For example, why is Klayton joining with DC Wilson to make such an effort to convince blacks that Obama is on their side?
    When Reality says different:

    3) As of Dec 31, 2011 there were 555,300 black male in prisons (not counting local jails)

    Ref: Table 7, http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p11.pdf

    As Table 8 of that reference shows, black males were imprisoned at 6 times the
    rate of white males ( 3,023 per 100,000 vs 478 per 100,000)

    4) Back in the reign of Evil Bush, In Dec 2008, there were 562,800 black males in prison, a rate of 3,161 per
    100,000– with a similar disparity compared to the rate of white male incarceration.
    Ref: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf, Tables 1 and 2

    5) I don’t exactly see the lack of significant change as sticking it to the Man — more a
    manner of bankrupt police forces being too poor and tired to chase the negros than
    Socialist Obama lifting a finger.

  39. 39
    Don Williams

    Clarification to 36: “what did they get in exchange — while the Herd were being distracted by a fake food fight.?”

  40. 40
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #36

    Since most of the incarcerated Afro-Americans (a little political correctness if you please) are not federal, I’m not quite sure what ole Donaldo expects Obama or any other federal official to do about it. Maybe ole Donaldo will he happier starting in 2017 with president Ted Cruz.

  41. 41
    dingojack

    Ah but Doniens – is being in jail ‘slavery’? It depends, it seems, on how your look at it. are they under legal or virtual ownership?
    Dingo

  42. 42
    dan4

    @38: The discussion was “Larry Klayman makes a stupid and nonsensical claim about Obama and the NSA Spying Program,” not “Republicans are Big Poops-Democrats are Awesome.” You whine about the dishonest framing of discussion while you dishonestly frame the discussion!

  43. 43
    Don Williams

    re Dan4 at 42:
    1) Klayman’s most nonsensical claim was not about the NSA spying — it was that Obama would fight to get white reparations for blacks. The past 5 years — the Wall Street Bailout — suggest the totally opposite. Well, unless Oprah wants to write a few $million in campaign donations.
    2) Republicans and Democrats are not opponents — they are collaborators and partners. They work for the same billionaires in many cases. And those billionaires stay on top by conning poor whites into believing that the Democrats will screw then and the Republicans will protect them — and by conning poor blacks into believing that the Republicans will screw them and the Democrats will protect them. Whereas is the truth is that both parties will screw the poor regardless of their skin color.

    It’s called “Divide and Conquer”.

  44. 44
    Don Williams

    Re Dingo at 41: How many nukes does the International Criminal Court have? And how is that Geneva Convention holding up, by the way?

    I haven’t checked her math but Michelle Alexander argues that there are more black men incarcerated or on probation than were enslaved in 1850:

    http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/03/prison_system_holds_more_black_men_than_slavery_did.html

    Which is why I am amused when some posters here argue that moral Demigods in the North — extremely WEALTHY moral Demigods — fought the expensive Civil War out of a deep feeling of affection for their black brethren. That would be the black brethren that were hauled across the Atlantic to the Deep South on the ships of those Demigod’s fathers and grandfathers.

    Of course, as I noted in 9 above , it is not technically slavery if they pay you 23 cents per hour.

    But since a felony sentence strips you of the right to vote, you are in no position to complain to your Congressman anyway.

  45. 45
    dingojack

    According to the FoAW:
    The 1850 Census noted the population of the US was 23,191,876, of these 3.204,313 were slaves. That’s 13.81655% of the population. To put that in a modern perspective, that would be 43,752,614.31759 persons.
    The total adult population in jail (as of 2010)) was 2,266,832, of whom about 893,132 (39.4%) were black.
    Dingo

  46. 46
    Don Williams

    Re SLC at 40:
    1) I don’t think SENATOR Cruz would last 6 months if he had a REAL opponent. Maybe you forget how the Leader of the Democrat Party could not bring himself to utter one PEEP of criticism of the Republican Party in 2009 — in spite of all they had done. “Bush Lied and People Died”? Time to er ..MOVE ON. heh heh nothing to see here — in spite of total access to the intel archives.

    2) The federal government — in many ways –creates the conditions that drive people to crime. What are people supposed to do if they can’t find jobs –starve? If 551 corrupt assholes in Washington claim the right to micromanage the USA and run up $17 Trillion in debt, then they are responsible for the results.

    3) In 2008, during the Rule of Evil Bush, there were 201,280 people in Federal prisons.
    Today, there are 218,952.

    Ref: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p09.pdf, Table 1

    http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp

  47. 47
    dan4

    @43: “1): Klayman’s most nonsensical claim was not about the NSA spying-it was that Obama would fight to get white reparations for blacks.”

    Uh, Klayman’s “evidence” for the “white reparations for blacks” IS the NSA spying. That’s very clear from the excerpt from the Klayman column that Mr. Brayton provided. Take a reading comprehension course, or something.

  48. 48
    dan4

    @44: So wait, if someone’s father or grandfather was a transporter of slaves, then it’s impossible for that person “to feel affection for their black brethren?” What kind of ahem, “thinking” is that?

  49. 49
    dingojack

    2008: Incarceration rate in Federal prisions: 66.19752112 per 100,000
    2013 Incarceration rate in Federal prisions 69.14232192 per 100,000
    An increase of 4.44%

    But this is, of course, ignoring the vast bulk of prisioners who are held in State prisions.

    Dingo

  50. 50
    Don Williams

    Re Dingo at 45:

    1) There are another 4.8 million under probation or parole controls. See
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpus11.pdf , Table 2.

    39.4% of 7 million gives 2.8 million.

    Black MALES (versus females) make up about 95% of the black prison
    population so that gives 2.66 Million black Males.

    2) Of the 3.2 million slaves in 1850, only 1.6 million were
    black males — which is MUCH less than the number controlled by the
    current prison system. QED.

    http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/1850c-04.pdf , page 86.

  51. 51
    Don Williams

    1) And for those still trying to take Klayman’s “white reparations” seriously, a Chart du Jour::

    http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/top-10-countries-with-highest-incarceration-rates.jpg?w=696

    2) The USA has the highest rate of incarceration rate in the world –753 people per 100,000.

    Some will note that Rwanda also has high rate –593 per 100,000.

    3) However, the US incarceration rate for BLACK MALES was 4,347 per 100,000 in 2010. In other words,
    a black Tutsi male has a better chance of going free in Rwanda than he would have in ObamaWorld.

  52. 52
    Don Williams

    Incarceration rate for Black Males in South Africa under apartheid (1993): 851 per 100,000

    Incarceration rate of US Black Males in the age group 25-29: 11,695 per 100,000

  53. 53
    dan4

    @51:…a black Tutsi male has a better chance of going free in Rwanda than he would have in Obamaworld.”

    Yes, because Obama somehow can control the racial makeup of who is and who is not sent to prison.

    Also, why do you capitalize the first letters in “black males.” Really annoying and weird.

  54. 54
    Modusoperandi

    Don Williams “In other words, a black Tutsi male has a better chance of going free in Rwanda than he would have in ObamaWorld.”
    Now you’re just being ridiculous. It had a man pretending to be a woman. I can’t even imagine Dustin Hoffman pretending to be black.

  55. 55
    Modusoperandi

    And what the hell is “ObamaWorld”? Is that a theme park where half of its visitors say the roller coaster is a disappointment and the other half says that linking the cars together is socialism*?
     
    * SOCIALISM!!!

  56. 56
    dingojack

    Donikens – ‘Oh noes, the facts don’t go my way – quick let’s change the goalposts and hope nobody notices!’
    Oops too late. Note the word ‘incarcerated‘ that you kept using in your above posts.
    Oh and that 95% of one-legged, left-handed, red-haired felons serving time for cattle-rustling are male tells us what exactly? That of the 20 persons imprisoned so described, 1 is female? Is this significant?
    Is some 900,000 people a high number or a low number? How does it compare to the American population as a whole (or that of comparative countries)? Does it stand up to your claims of ‘more black people jailed than slaves in 1850 (as an example)? That is, are your claims creditable?
    Dingo

  57. 57
    d.c.wilson

    Yes, because Obama somehow can control the racial makeup of who is and who is not sent to prison.

    That’s Donnie’s entire MO. He Gish gallops through a bunch of statistics that illustrate some long standing problems the US has had which may or may not be even tangentially related to the topic at hand (or each other) and then proclaims that because these problems have not been magically solved in the last five years, Obama is personally responsible for creating the problems in the first place. Then he follows up with a bunch of ad hominem attacks on anyone who tries to question his received wisdom.

    Like with most trolls, trying to engage him in intelligent discussion is a waste of time.

  58. 58
    Modusoperandi

    d.c.wilson, this is the internet. If you think it’s for intelligent conversation, someone mislead you terribly.

  59. 59
    dingojack

    Extrapolating your figure of 11695 per 100000 to the whole of the black community that would make the black population of America about 14.511M*. Seems rather low to me.

    Also:
    In 2009 8,800,000 25-34 year-old US drivers were involved in fatal car accidents! (18.333% of all fatalities)
    Much higher than the nine fatalities in Iceland in 2012!
    @@

    Dingo
    ——-
    * CIA Factbook puts the black population of the US at around 40,691,911

  60. 60
    Nemo

    BTW, why exactly shouldn’t whitey pay? I understand that it would be terribly inconvenient, but is there ever an actual justification offered by the wingnuts for opposing the hypothetical reparations that nobody actually proposes?

  61. 61
    laurentweppe

    I understand that it would be terribly inconvenient, but is there ever an actual justification offered by the wingnuts for opposing the hypothetical reparations that nobody actually proposes?

    Because underservedly privileged bullies like Klayman are convinced that the people they screwed up are so angry at them that they most certainly secretly dream of revenge and will commit a class-based genocide the second they acquire the firepower to do so.
    make whithey pay” is coded language for “Niggers want to go all Django on us!

  62. 62
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #33

    You know –like that fake impeachment of Bill Clinton while Bill Clinton and Republican Senator Phil Gramm were blowing up FDR’s Glass Steagall, passing NAFTA, and urging American’s plutocrats to go on a money hunt in China while screwing the American People?

    Oh boy, another conspiracy theory from ole Donaldo. Larry Klayman has nothing on ole Donaldo.

  63. 63
    democommie

    Just for shits and grinz, before even looking at the comments, I did a “Don Williams” search.

    Sixteen fucking comments by a man who is seriously underfunded in the area of sanity. What the world needs now is for Dondi to have a bottomless cup of STFU.

  64. 64
    dingojack

    ‘A bottomless cup of STFU’! Why that’d be a miracle! (Jjust ask Cindi Jacobs).
    ;) Dingo

  65. 65
    Don Williams

    Re dingo at 56:
    1) Re “incarcerated”, If you look at my citation to Michelle Alexander in my response to you in post 44 you will see that I EXPLICITLY noted that she was including those on probation as well as those actually incarcerated.

    2) A relatively low percentage of women –of all races– are incarcerated compared to males. So one of the dishonest tactics used by those wanting to dismiss black males incarceration rates is to speak just of blacks –which dilutes the male incarceration rate by the full black population (male+ female).

    I explicitly noted that I was speaking of black males and did so in BOLD TYPE because you guys kept getting confused –e.g., you citing 3.2 million black slaves in 1850s versus the relevant number (1.6 million black male slaves.)

    3) Re whether my “claim is creditable ” — MIchelle Alexander’s claim actually — I gave you the arithmetic in post 50. Can’t you do arithmetic –or Are you a humanities major?

  66. 66
    Don Williams

    Re dingo at 59: “Extrapolating your figure of 11695 per 100000 to the whole of the black community ”

    1) Once again, You are confused by arithmetic Let me try again.

    Incarceration rate of US Black Males IN THE AGE GROUP 25-29: 11,695 per 100,000

    2) Compare that to the incarceration rate in South Africa during apartheid. Oh –but you can’t. I forgot Liberal Tactic Number 4: When confronted with inconvenient facts, develop a sudden inability to read and/or blindness or Alzheimers.

  67. 67
    Don Williams

    Re DC Wilson: “He [Don Williams] Gish gallops through a bunch of statistics that illustrate some long standing problems the US has had which may or may not be even tangentially related to the topic at hand (or each other) and then proclaims that because these problems have not been magically solved in the last five years, Obama is personally responsible for creating the problems in the first place”
    —————-
    1) My stats are facts –unlike the narrative cartoons so favored by humanities majors. My stats directly refute Klayman’s claim that Obama favors the black community — the Reality is that he show at best a cold indifference.

    2) In January 2009, Obama was the Leader of the Democratic Party as well as President. A Democratic Party that had once-in-30 years aggregation of political power –huge majorities in both Houses of Congress as well as the White House.

    So Obama is most certainly responsible for the economic policy that bailed out Wealthy Donors while killing small businesses that employed many people (by letting Big Banks starve the small businesses of necessary credit.)

    3) It should have taken the Democrats 2 days to change the Tax Tables to levy a huge surtax on the Richest 2 Percent and distribute the revenue to the workers. To reverse the Reagan and Bush tax cuts that had given the Richest 2% almost 25% of the national income — and shift their share back to the 8% they received in 1978.

    That would have relieved poverty, spurred spending, revived the economy and reduced crime. When the much mocked George W assumed power in 2001, he railroaded a massive tax cut for the rich within months. 5 Years later, Obama has accomplished nothing —except preen as the first black president while stabbing the black community in the back. Oh — and make the Rich Friends that will let Obama pick up the same $40 Million in wealth that Bill Clinton has acquired since sabotaging Glass Steagall (at Citigroup billionaire Sandy Weill’s urging).

    4) I think the responses here are very revealing. It seems that so long as Obama does nothing to disturb your personal interests, you don’t care what he does to the poor.

  68. 68
    DaveL

    I don’t know of anyone who thinks Barack Obama is a panacea for racial inequalities in the United States, or that he ever was going to be.

    He is the President. That’s it, that’s all. He is not a God, nor a wizard, nor even a king. He’s just a man elected to a certain position with certain powers and certain responsibilities. To judge him by some standard of godlike omnipotence is not only unfair to the man himself, but dangerous as well. If people are habituated to thinking the President can do anything, how can they protest when he does just that?

  69. 69
    Don Williams

    What is amusing to me is the way the Right Wing loves to exploit Democratic two-faced corruption and hypocrisy.

    Glenn Beck and Fox knew that Obama was shoveling $Trillions out the back door of the US Treasury to the ir Rich patrons. So they loudly depicted him as a Marxist. Because they knew that LAST THING the Democrats would do would be to get into a conversation to refute that fact.

    Plus it let Fox signal to the White House that they approved of what Obama was doing and would conceal what was happening from the Republican part of the Herd behind a haze of nonsense.

    Klayman, of course, is much more insignificant — but the Republicans are like flocks of crows that caw in unison. And Fox has also been promoting the Obama as black avenger lately — even though the facts show the complete opposite.

    Again, this is part of the joint Republican-Democratic schtick of alienating the white poor from the black poor.

    But it also signals to Obama that the Republicans will not point out to the black community the embarrassing results of Obama’s welfare for the Rich.

    Similarly, the loud and deceitful jihad that the Democratic News Media promoted against scapegoat George Zimmerman was done to distract black voters away from 5 years of 15% unemployment.

    But it was also done in such a way as to anger and alienate whites away from blacks –via MSNBC’s Rent-a-Negro Al Sharpton. . Some blacks saw what was going on and tried to intervene to stop the race game –
    but to no avail.

  70. 70
    Don Williams

    Re DaveL at 68: “He is the President. That’s it, that’s all. He is not a God, ”

    1) Obama is also Leader of the Democratic Party. Show me one instance in 2009-2010 when he showed any sign of acknowledging that. Republican Scott Brown took Ted Kennedy’s seat because the White House greeted him with all the joy of a wagon train under siege by the Indians greeting the arrival of the cavalry.

    FDR vs Obama — compare and contrast. Start with the fact that FDR was already wealthy when he entered office — and so could “betray his class” when it was in the national interest, instead if kissing rich men’s butts.

  71. 71
    democommie

    Skimmin’ a few of Dondi’s comments (or a few dozen, or a few thousand) would lead a sane and sensible person to conclude one of two things.

    A.) colnago80 is incorrect in thinking that Dondi has a genuine, functional intellect; Dondi is, iow, dumber than a box of particularly imbecilic rock hammers.

    B.) colnago80 is correct in his assessment and Dondi, therefor, is nothing but a fucking liar.

    I admit to being torn; happily there is the third possibility:

    C.) Dondi is a stupid fucking liar. Yeah, that seems most likely.

  72. 72
    colnago80

    Re democommie @ #71

    There is a fourth possibility, namely that ole Donaldo is, as the limeys say, a bit round the bend.

    Re Don Williams @ #46

    It would be very dangerous to take Ted Cruz too lightly. Cruz is no moron like Michele Bachmann, Steve King, or Louis Gohrmert. IMHO, he is one of the most dangerous men in America because he combines a brilliant intellect (as Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz attests to, comparing him with Elizabeth Warren) with the ability to demagogue to the lowest common denominator in the Rethuglican Party. Reminds one of a certain Austrian failed artist of the 1920s or a certain assassinated Governor of Louisiana, who conspicuously lacked the intellect of Cruz. Would certainly be an interesting race in 2016 if Cruz ended up running against Warren for president.

  73. 73
    democommie

    “Reminds one of a certain Austrian failed artist of the 1920s or a certain assassinated Governor of Louisiana, who conspicuously lacked the intellect of Cruz.”

    But, but…Surely the Type2A’s of MurKKKa would apply their swift, great bullet-spittin’ swords to the problem and solve the pro–. Oh, my bad, I forgot; they’ll be too busy sewing the deaths heads on their brownshirts.

  74. 74
    Don Williams

    SLC at 72: “IMHO, he [Ted Cruz] is one of the most dangerous men in America ”
    ————–
    1) If Ted Cruz gains power it will be because our supine Democrats are as craven and as malignly corrupt as the Social Democrats were in Weimar. From “When Money Dies” by Adam Fergusson, p. 236:

    “The corruption among officials in 1924, Lord D’Abernon reported, was ‘appalling’,
    whereas before the war bribery had been almost unknown, and a high degree of
    uncorruptibility evident in public and private, if not always in commercial , life.”

    By 1930, the German voters were charmed by the idea of a party who stomped the Social Democrats
    in the streets –or stood them up against a wall to be shot.

    2) Just remember who the ruling elites — to save themselves — make the designated scapegoat
    when the Herd get angry:

  75. 75
    DaveL

    @70

    The Democratic Party in America is not one monolithic organization with a single leader. The closest you could come to that is the Democratic National Committee, and Obama is not its leader. That would be Debbie Wasserman Schultz at the present time. Nor is he listed among the DNC’s officers.

  76. 76
    Don Williams

    “When Money Dies”, p. 242:

    “”Our good friend ‘der brave Joseph’ [wrote Addison in reference to
    Dr Wirth, the ex-Chancellor] who posed as the embodiment of
    Parsifal-like ignorance of the wicked world and of transparent
    honesty, is said to be in it up to the hilt, in as much as through his
    agency his own company succeeded in extracting a trifle of 14 million
    gold marks out of the Post Office funds. To name the others would
    be to give a complete list of all the Social Democrat leaders and of the
    most highly placed officials… The Right are biting their fists with
    rage that all this didn’t come out before the December election.”

  77. 77
    Don Williams

    Re DaveL at 75:

    1) Strange — some people seem to value Obama’s influence highly:

    http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

    2) Re the universities, note that some people have said Harvard is a $30 billion hedge fund
    that has a minor education subsidiary.

    But maybe you could ask the guy who constructed
    Obama’s economic policy in 2009.

    3) But I suppose you could argue that $750 Million was because people wanted to support
    a good government that would take care of the poor.

    hmmmm.
    hee hee
    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

  78. 78
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #74

    IMHO, Donaldo greatly underestimates Ted Cruz. As Alan Dershowitz, who had him in classes at Harvard and thus ought to know, has stated, this is one very smart cookie. This is not Adolf Frankenberger or Huey Long who were first rate demagogues but were really not too bright. Cruz combines their demagogic abilities with a first rate mind. None of the other potential Rethuglican candidates come close to this man’s abilities. In fact, the only Democrat who can challenge him in the intelligence area is Elizabeth Warren, who also is described by Dershowitz as one of the best students he ever had. Unfortunately, if Hillary runs, Senator Warren doesn’t stand a chance.

  79. 79
    Don Williams

    Re SLC at 78:
    1) Demagogues like Adolf and Huey only succeed in conditions where the Old Order is deeply corrupt, incompetent (because of the self-serving focus) and has dumped enormous misery onto the population.
    Demogogues only succeed because they give voice to the seething hatred felt by the population.

    Conditions would have to get significantly worse for a larger percentage of the people between now and 2016 for mere demagogues to succeed.

    2) Cruz has several shortcomings:
    a) no military service
    b) no business experience
    c) a life largely spent as a [ spit] lawyer
    d) a libertarian ideology that is ridiculous when you look at the service provided by members of the military,
    the medical profession , police , etc.

    3) Cruz’s advantages:
    a) Criticisms of the federal government are more likely to be accepted when the government is incompetent and whoring for the Rich
    b) There is a legitimate debate to be made re where power and authority should reside in this country. The more local the more of a voice people have . Certainly Congress has very low approval ratings and many would support a curtailment of its authority — although the devil is in the details (what areas, etc.)

    4) Cruz’s biggest advantage is that money rules in the early days , the Herd’s anger at 2008 has declined, and
    the Superrich may calculate that it is time to return government back to predation (Republican) mode.

  80. 80
    dan4

    @69: Dude postures as a fighter for the interests/concerns of African-Americans, and yet he refers to one of them as a “negro.” Funny stuff.

  81. 81
    Don Williams

    dan4 at 80:

    I was using Cornel West’s derisory term for Sharpton because I agree with West’s view of the mercantile nature of Sharpton’s outrage and the patronizing terms under which MSNBC allows him to speak.

  82. 82
    Don Williams

    PS to SLC:
    There are a lot of people in Washington who think they are smart. Cheney’s lawyer David Addington, for example. Yet with the close of the Bush Administration, Addington has to now depend on Welfare from the American Enterprise Institute because the market place evidently judged Addington is not as smart as he thinks.

    Some people think Bill Clinton is smart. I myself would have loved to have seen his expression when he was informed that Monica had not washed that dress.

  83. 83
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #79

    Gee, ole Donaldo’s list also applies to Hillary, his most likely opponent. As for ole Bill, he is an example of a smart guy who allowed the little head to run the big head. Not the first guy that happened to.

    Recall that Rmoney, a perfectly awful candidate got 47% of the vote. Rmoney was not too bright to start with, despite his Harvard Business School education, and he was a totally incompetent demagogue. If in fact the economic situation hasn’t significantly improved by 2016, and the Rethuglicans in the House will do their best to see that it doesn’t, Cruz and his nostrums will be a formidable candidate. Taking him lightly as ole Donaldo does would be as moronic as the Democrats who took Reagan too lightly in 1980. Anybody remember Reagan’s quaint notion that large tax cuts were just the ticket to balance the budget (the Laffler Curve).

  84. 84
    dan4

    @81.So you called someone a racially condescending name, but that’s okay because someone else called him a racially condescending name first. Impeccable logic, fine sir. Truly impeccable logic.

  85. 85
    Don Williams

    dan4 at 84:

    1) Actually it is my schtick. Ask SLC.

    Whenever I want to show just how two-faced, corrupt and hypocritical Liberals are, I present things of substances — 5 years of 15% black unemployment, extremely high incarceration rates for black men,etc — and then I leave a little hook.

    I leave Liberals some trivial excuse for EVADING and IGNORING the major points about how the American People are treated unfairly by the ruling class — in favor of forming Liberals’ little kangaroo courts of political correctness. Works every time.

    Look at yourself. You did not contradict my facts above. You did not offer counter facts. You did not express dismay over the state of the black community 5 years after Democrats seized control of the House, Senate and White House. You did not propose remedies or argue that something should be done.

    Instead, IMO, you showed yourself to be the typical Democratic hack.. Trying not to defend the principles you espouse but instead struggling to defend the corrupt Party that sells out of those principles.
    Trying to defend Democratic corruption by desperately seeking to find some means to attack anyone who points out the corruption.

    Black Americans are my countrymen — if Haim Saban’s whore Hillary drags us into another Middle Eastern war and my son is drafted, he is a lot more likely to find a black kid from Philly in the foxhole with him than limpwristed liberals who never get within 500 miles of a battlefield.

  86. 86
    Don Williams

    1) How often have we seen Al Sharpton on MSNBC criticizing Obama and the Democrats for 5 years of 15% unemployment? How often have we seen Al Sharpton calling on Obama to provide police protection to Camden NJ and Chester PA — which have some of the highest homicide rates on the planet? How often have we seen Sweet Al on MSNBC pointing out the extremely high incarceration rates for black youths?

    2) Sweet Al is not just trying to divert black voters away from how they have been screwed by the Democrats — he is also trying to alienate white voters away from supporting the black community. Anybody who is human could sympathize with Trayvon Martin’s parents demanding justice. But no one appreciates being slandered by lies.

    Instead of trying to unite black and white Americans by focusing on our common problems– as Jesse Jackson tried with his Rainbow Coalition — , Sharpton tries to divide us. If the Ku Klux Klan had any brains, they would hire him into their recruiting department.

  87. 87
    dan4

    @85 “…provide police protection to Camden NJ and Chester PA-”

    Huh? I can’t make a lick of sense of this. Are you saying that Camden, NJ and Chester, PA don’t have police forces?

    “…my son is drafted…”

    There is no draft, you idiot.

  88. 88
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #86

    I would agree that any network giving Sharpton a platform has much to answer for. Sharpton is a lying fukke. Don’t believe it, just ask Steve Pagones.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Pagones

  89. 89
    colnago80

    Re dan4 @ #97

    Ole Donaldo never lets the facts get in the way of a good rant.

  90. 90
    Don Williams

    SLC at 83:

    1) If the economy declines between now and 2016, then it is a wash for both Parties — they planned it that way.
    They will fight the campaign on some trivial matters that the billionaires don’t care about.

    If you abruptly toss the Voters into a pot of boiling water , they will react sharply. But if you gradually turn up the temperature they will just sit there and stew slowly –and grow more weak.

    2) You’ve seen the chart — median real income had risen steadily since at least WWII. But starting in 2000 it
    started dropping for workers in all age groups — and has fallen more sharply in Obama’s administration.

    http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/charts/census/household-income-by-age-bracket-median-real.gif

    Down about 17% for middle-aged workers — seen any outcry in the News Media — Democratic or Republican?

    3) You would need a radical third party forming now in order to exploit economic decline. The billionaires , of course, run a 24/7 propaganda machine to keep that from happening. Promising..er..”Change You Can Believe In”, heh heh.

  91. 91
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #90

    Sorry Donaldo, if the economy declines or does not improve between now and 2016, the incumbent party, which is Obama, will get the blame and will be treated accordingly by the electorate. See 1992. A smart and resourceful demagogue like Cruz is just the man to take advantage of that situation. Ole Donaldo reminds me of the Democrats in 1980 who wanted to run against Reagan, considering him to be a doddering old man approaching senility. How did that work out?

    As for a third party, the electoral system in the US discriminates heavily against them. The only third party in my lifetime that actually captured electoral votes was George Wallace’s third party in 1968. If that election had been held 1 week later, IMHO, neither Nixon or Humphrey would have reached 270 electoral votes and Wallace would have used his electoral votes to horse trade in the Electoral College. The results would not have been pretty.

  92. 92
  93. 93
    Don Williams

    1) Re police protection in Pennsylvania generally:

    http://articles.philly.com/2011-01-27/news/27051616_1_homicide-victims-homicide-rate-black-homicide

    2) US homicide rate is around 6 per 100,000. Look at these:

    http://voices.yahoo.com/most-dangerous-cities-america-violent-crime-rates-7272524.html?cat=54

    Note: The murder rates listed are per 1000 people — move the decimal point two places to the right
    to get the standard rate per 100,000.

  94. 94
    Don Williams

    Re dan4 at 87: “There is no draft, you idiot.”

    1) Let Sheldon Adelson dump another $150 Million into US Politics to promote an invasion of Iran and there will be.

    You idiot.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/12/03/sheldon-adelson-ended-up-spending-150-million

  95. 95
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #86

    How often have we seen Al Sharpton calling on Obama to provide police protection to Camden NJ and Chester PA — which have some of the highest homicide rates on the planet?

    Since Obama doesn’t control a police force, how does ole Donaldo expect him to provide police protection in Camden and Chester? Send in US Army troops? Federalize the Pennsylvania National Guard and send in National Guard troops? And no, the FBI is not a police force that could be used for ole Donaldo’s purpose. It seems that this is a task for the Governors of Pennsylvania and New Jersey who control the State Troopers of those two states.

  96. 96
    Don Williams

    Re SLC at 95:

    Gee, how about Obama taxes the Rich a little and send some money to places like Chester so they can hire enough police? Maybe improve the schools? And maybe do something on the economic development front?

    Or we can just do like they do in South American — deploy the police to protect the fortified enclaves of the Rich and let everybody else live in fear in high crime shitholes. Maybe have Rush Limbaugh and George Will pontificate on the moral failings of the poor.

    FBI and Homeland Security didn’t show any inhibitions about policing that Boston explosion.

    Islamic terrorists are not the threat in Chester — or if they ever were they didn’t survive for very long. heh heh

  97. 97
    Don Williams

    How about we check in and see how the Negros are doing on what Herman Cain calls “the Democratic Plantation”?

    http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/www.intellectualtakeout.org/files/imagecache/chart_content/chart-graph/Median%20Household%20Income_0.JPG

  98. 98
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #96

    FBI and Homeland Security didn’t show any inhibitions about policing that Boston explosion.

    Oh come on Donaldo, that’s a one off. The problem in Chester calls for cops on the beat, something that the FBI is totally unqualified for.

    Gee, how about Obama taxes the Rich a little and send some money to places like Chester so they can hire enough police?

    Gee, Obama should unilaterally raise taxes on the rich. Now I know that my courses in high school civics took place a million years ago but I seem to recall that taxes have to be set by the Congress. Rots of ruck getting the Rethuglicans in the House to agree to raise taxes on the rich. There ain’t no votes in Chester for Rethuglicans.

  99. 99
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #97

    Well then, obviously Afro-Americans (a little political correctness here?) should vote for Ted Cruz in 2016.

  100. 100
    Don Williams

    Re SLC at 98:
    1) So WHO is that $1 Trillion/YEAR military budget DEFENDING? Because it ain’t the residents of Chester.
    Compare their homicide rates to Beirut and Cairo.

    2) But I sense that I am boring you gentlemen. Maybe I should talk with Ted Cruz. Take up SLC’s idea and show ole Ted howthat “demagogue” road might have some promise. Maybe Ted and Cornel West could have a joint appearance to suggest to the black community that it is about time they stopped being the Democrats’ long-suffering bitches.

  101. 101
    Raging Bee

    Gee, how about Obama taxes the Rich a little and send some money to places like Chester so they can hire enough police?

    Excuse me while I belabor the obvious. First, tax policy is set by Congress, not the President. and second, Chester cops are paid out of PA state and county coffers, which are filled (or not) according to STATE government policy, not the President. You and your chum colnago really should take your incoherent stupid axe-grinding bullshit somewhere else. How about PZ’s Thunderdome?

  102. 102
    Don Williams

    Re SLC at 98:

    1) And yet moron George W Bush was able to railroad a $3 Trillion tax CUT for his patrons within a few months of assuming office. Strange.

    of course, he did have the help of 12 Democratic Senators.

  103. 103
    Raging Bee

    Maybe Ted and Cornel West could have a joint appearance to suggest to the black community that it is about time they stopped being the Democrats’ long-suffering bitches.

    Maybe you should stop pretending you know anything about “the black community” — or anything else for that matter. You suck at it.

  104. 104
    Don Williams

    Re 101:
    1) So I have one vote from Raging Bee for “Protect the Rich Folks and Fuck the Poor”.

    Next?

  105. 105
    Raging Bee

    If you want to know who’s protecting the rich folks, just look to the threadjacking troll who is — in lockstep with Republican propagandists — blaming Obama for bad things that have been happening long before he was even a Senator, let alone President.

    I strongly suspect that’s all Don Williams is: a Republican plant doing his bit to make even more of the incoherent noise the Republicans offer in place of an actual grownup agenda.

  106. 106
    colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #105

    Ole Donaldo claimed on Matthew Yglesias’ old blog back in 2008 that he campaigned for Obama in Pennsylvania.

    Re Don Williams

    It appears that the State of Virginia, ole Donaldo’s old stamping grounds, is reporting a 1/2 billion surplus in FY 2013. Not a dime of it should be spent in Buchanan Co.

  107. 107
    Don Williams

    At 105:

    1) Actually, if you look at the actual ACCOMPLISHMENTS of the Democratic Party, I think you will see that the “Republican plants” are not here at Brayton’s blog — they are ..er.. “making Policy” in the Democratic Caucus.

    2) So tell me again — how much did Ben Nelson get from the DNC and DSCC to run for reelection in 2006– after voting for Bush’s Tax Cuts for the Rich. $76,000 wasn’t it?

    3) And the drop in real household median income for blacks did not happen “long before he [Obama] was even a Senator” — it occurred during Obama’s Presidency. look at the chart in post 97 again.

  108. 108
    Raging Bee

    Ole Donaldo claimed on Matthew Yglesias’ old blog back in 2008 that he campaigned for Obama in Pennsylvania.

    An unverified assertion by someone with zero credibility. He sounds like a follower of Lyndon LaRouche — who also pretends to be a Democrat while spouting insane, ridiculous conspiracy stories. If he quacks (and quacks and quacks and quacks…) like a teatard, then for all practical purposes, he’s a teatard.

    And why the fuck are you even bothering with him, colnago? You only sound like a loony on a certain set of related issues, which puts you way above his level. Punching that far below your weight only embarrasses you. Get your head out of his ass, wash your hair and face real good, and rejoin your frenemies in the real world for a change.

  109. 109
    colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #108

    I guess I have a soft spot in my heart for folks like Don who are a little off. This includes a fellow named John Kwok, who has been given the heave ho at a number of blogs, including PZ;s. We have had a number of vituperous exchanges over at Panda’s Thumb, despite which I have opposed his being given the heave ho over there, in opposition to a number of regular commentors.

    Actually, I think that old Donaldo is a Bolshevik at heart, given his ire at billionaires, especially those from a certain ethnic group (e.g. Hiam Saban, Sheldon Adelson, Michael Dell, Larry Ellison, etc.). Haven’t heard any rants from him about Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or Jeff Bezos.

  110. 110
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #107

    And the drop in real household median income for blacks did not happen “long before he [Obama] was even a Senator” — it occurred during Obama’s Presidency. look at the chart in post 97 again.

    And was caused by the economic collapse that started in the Dubya Administration. Obama was handed a shit sandwich by his predecessor and has been working overtime to deodorize it.

  111. 111
    Don Williams

    ah, here is the data in a detailed table.

    1) In 2007, the income of black households was $36,790 (in 2011 dollars.) By 2011, it
    had fallen to $32,229.

    Ref: Table H-6 at
    http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/

    2) But almost 40 YEARS AGO — in 1975 — it was $28,157 (in 2011 dollars.)

    So much for Martin Luther King’s Dream. That “40 acres and a mule” offer is
    starting to look pretty good in comparison.

  112. 112
    Raging Bee

    Yes, Dan could be a Bolshevik — Bolsheviks also hated liberals with a downright idiotic passion, and they were pretty easily manipulated by fascists as well. What few real Bolsheviks were ever in the US were tools of either COINTELPRO or the KGB. So calling Dan a Bolshevik really doesn’t say a heckuva lot.

  113. 113
    Don Williams

    Re SLC at 110:
    1) And yet the Democrats were strangely reluctant to get into a discussion of what caused the collapse. I wonder why?

    “By the time the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed in 1999, the $300 million lobbying effort that drove deregulation was more about facilitating mergers than creating an efficient regulatory framework,” Mr. Obama said in a speech on the economy at Cooper Union in New York in March 2008. “Instead of establishing a 21st century regulatory framework, we simply dismantled the old one,” thereby encouraging “a winner take all, anything goes environment that helped foster devastating dislocations in our economy.”

    1999. 1999. Who was President then?

    2) Oh — and how did the vote go:

    “But 10 years ago, the revocation of Glass-Steagall drew few critics. In the House, 155 Democrats and 207 Republicans voted for the measure, while 51 Democrats, 5 Republicans and 1 independent opposed it. ”

    hmmm. looks to me like the repeal would not have passed if 155 Democrats had not defected and joined the Republicans.

  114. 114
  115. 115
    Don Williams

    Re Bee at 108:
    1) Why do Democrats always sound like a pack of teenage girls in high school?

    I mean, Why should I give a hairy rodent’s posterior if I am “popular” or “accepted” by people I hold in deep contempt?

  116. 116
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #113

    I would point out that the Bush tax cuts for the rich and the useless war in Iraq left the government poorly placed to combat the the effects of the crash. Sans those items, the crash would have been much less severe as there would have been more real stimulus money to combat it. However, I would agree that he repeal of Glass-Steagall, which seemed to be a good idea at the time, turned out to be a disaster. Another example of triangulation by ole Bill and his pals Greenspan, Rubin, and Summers. If Summers is nominated for chairman of the Federal Reserve, one would hope that he would be raked over the coals for his pushing the disaster. Probably not, unless Elizabeth Warren is on the committee doing the questioning. Note the ad that often appears on this blog promoting the passage of a new Glass-Steagell act prominently features Senator Warren.

    Re Don Williams @ #94

    No need to send ground troops into Iran. A 1/2 dozen well targeted 15 megaton bombs will settle their hash. Or a couple of Tsar bombs.

  117. 117
    Don Williams

    SLC at 116:
    1) Well, if you play your cards right you might get some newfound friends to support that Tsar Bomba thing.
    One week of me and they’re ready to kiss your butt (Bee, post 108 )

    As opposed to pre-Don times:
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2011/10/25/kristol-wants-another-war/#comment-23508

    see, I am good for something. hee hee

  118. 118
    Don Williams

    at 116:

    Oh, I’m not defending Bush. When your own Party doesn’t invite you the to the Republican Convention because they are trying to forget your disasterous 8 year Presidency, that speaks more loudly than anything I could say.

    I occasionally crack up laughing when I imagine Bush and Cheney trying to figure out in Sept 2008 how Osama Bin Laden managed to deal the US economy such a devastating blow.

  119. 119
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #117

    Somehow I don’t think that the general attitude in these parts about attacking Iran will be such as to allow anyone to agree with me. Not even Donaldo’s conspiracy theiries can make that happen.

  120. 120
    dan4

    @94: No one’s going to listen to Sheldon friggin’ Adelson over whether the U.S. should invade Iran or not. And an invasion of Iran, even if it DOES happen, does not mean an automatic reinstatement of the draft (it certainly didn’t happen with both Iraq Wars, even though the latter one lasted a long time).

  121. 121
    Don Williams

    Re dan4 at 120: ” an invasion of Iran, even if it DOES happen, does not mean an automatic reinstatement of the draft (it certainly didn’t happen with both Iraq Wars, even though the latter one lasted a long time).”

    1) Iraq had around 25 million people –Iran has 70 million. Iraq is desert — Iran has mountains. Iraq was badly fractured by hatred of Saddam and decades of sanctions –Iran is not.

    2) Don’t take my word for it. From Lieutenant Colonel Leif Eckholm, USAF, Strategic Plans and Policy Directorate (J5) of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon:

    “Pollack also points out that required troop levels in this occupation scenario, using the equation of one soldier per 50 inhabitants that General Shinseki utilized in his Iraq pre-war assessment, rise above 1.4 million troops, nearly double the current end-strength of the active duty U.S. Army and Marines combined. ”

    http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/87231

    3) So — should we add your name to the cannon fodder list?

  122. 122
    colnago80

    Re “Don Williams @ #121

    There is absolutely no need to send in ground troops into Iran. Their nuclear facilities can be completely destroyed by a half dozen 15 megaton bombs or a couple of Tsar bombs. It’s time we stopped farting around like we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam and show them that we mean business. We have no interest in occupying Iran when our limited goal is to destroy their nuclear facilities. And for those who whine about collateral damage, I didn’t hear such whining when Germany and Japan were bombed day and night. Too bad we didn’t have nukes in 1941, WW 2 would have been over in a week.

  123. 123
    colnago80

    Re “Don Williams @ #121

    There is absolutely no need to send in ground troops into Iran. Their nuclear facilities can be completely destroyed by a half dozen 15 megaton bombs or a couple of Tsar bombs. It’s time we stopped farting around like we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam and show them that we mean business. We have no interest in occupying Iran when our limited goal is to destroy their nuclear facilities. And for those who whine about collateral damage, I didn’t hear such whining when Germany and Japan were bombed day and night. Too bad we didn’t have nukes in 1941, WW 2 would have been over in a week.

    The biggest mistake that Dubya made after 9/11 was invading Afghanistan and Iraq. What he should have done is load up a B 52 with four 15 megaton bombs, dropping the first on on Tripoli which would have taken care of Qadaffi, the second on Baghdad which would have taken care of Saddam, the third on Kabul which would have taken care of the Taliban, and the fourth on Tehran which would have taken care of the Ayatollahs. A whole lot cheaper then spending 1 trillion bucks on invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, the later activity which was bungled.

  124. 124
    dingojack

    SLC –
    1. The US couldn’t drop any 15Mt bombs on anyone. They don’t have any.
    2. B52′s would be hard(ish) to find, but if you did use them they’d be in great danger. Even the common old surface to air missile would make short work of a B52, plus there is the problem of re-fuelling on such a long flight. The flight length would also preclude surprise and would make reprisals almost certain.
    3. Then there are the long-term effects. A decade of below average temperatures and droughts, anybody?

    Your genocidal bit has veered from slightly amusing Internet Tough-Guy into yawn-inducing Internet Bore.

    One half out of ten.

    Dingo

  125. 125
    colnago80

    Re dingojack the chihuahua@ #124

    1. 15 megton bombs were available in 2000.

    2. In 2000, there were still a few B 52s in SAC which were equipped to deliver large nuclear weapons.

    2a. The B 52s could fly from Diego Garcia which is about 900 miles from the target areas.,

    3. Four 15 megaton bombs would be a mere bagatelle in the grand scheme of things compared to a large volcanic eruption such as Krakatoa. The 57 megaton Tsar bomb set off by the former Soviet Union had zero affect on world wide climate.

  126. 126
    dingojack

    1. Really? 15Mt. Where?
    2a, Bring the head of Diego Garcia! A long flight to hit all those target! And still vurnerable to ground attack (due the low height and speed, relative to speaking).
    3. Really? Any actual evidence?

    Dingo

  127. 127
    Don Williams

    Re SLC at 123:
    1) Look at a map, SLC. Did we invest $3 Trillion to grab Iraq oil for Exxon just so Exxon’s tankers would have to run past a gauntlet of massive Chinese and/ or Russian fortresses on the east bank of the Persian Gulf?

    2) The Russians border on Iran at the Caspian Sea. They have wanted a warm water ocean port for centuries — and Iran would give it to them. Several actually. Right next to nuclear armed Pakistan.

    3) Iraq would fall — no Shia would support the USA after your strike. Then Saudi Arabia absent a massive US expedition to defend it. With full access to Iraq and Saudi oil, China would be well on its way to passing us in GDP within a decade.

    4) Lt Col Leif Eckholm notes that a few air strikes would not destroy Iran’s nuclear complex , much of which is dispersed and hidden, and that it would gain Iran’s rulers tremendous popular support and strong incentive to work ever harder to gain nukes.

    We overthrew Mossadagh and installed the Shah and his Savak torturers — what has that gained us
    60 years later other than a bitter enemy?

    5) Russia and China have plenty of nukes — and our actions in Iraq has motivated them to build more. We are not going to take Russian or Chinese nukes — and they would now have enraged Iranian allies happy to smuggle nukes into America’s 50 largest cities for a revenge strike. Just one success would crash the heavily indebted US economy.

    It’s not all about Israel.

  128. 128
    Don Williams

    Our only serious rivals are Russia, China and possibly a united EU ( ha ha ha –just kidding.)

    Our Neocon adventure in Iraq has given a Russia in economic collapse time to rebuild/recover and a rising China a decade in which to grow much stronger. Meanwhile our federal debt has soared by $11 Trillion.

    Re your Iranian adventure, I can just hear the Russians and Chinese going “Do it! Do it!”

  129. 129
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #127

    Lt. Col Leif Eckholm assumes conventional strikes with bunker buster bombs. I agree, it probably wouldn’t do the job. That’s why I propose using large H bombs. If we are going to attack, let’s do it right the first time. And after the strike, Iran will be in no shape to threaten anybody.

    What Iranian allies? The only ones are Syria and Hizbollah, hardly much of an international threat to the US. And by the way, Islamic terrorism is a bigger threat to Russia and China then it is to the US (Chechnya anyone).

    As for Russia and China,are they going to trade Moscow and Beijing for New York in retaliation for bombing Iran off the map? I don’t think so.

  130. 130
    Don Williams

    And if we are going to talk about forcibly disarming someone, may I point out that disarming Israel’s nuclear force would remove much of the Islamic World’s motivation to acquire nukes?

  131. 131
    Raging Bee

    Look at a map, SLC. Did we invest $3 Trillion to grab Iraq oil for Exxon just so Exxon’s tankers would have to run past a gauntlet of massive Chinese and/ or Russian fortresses on the east bank of the Persian Gulf?

    No matter how many comments Don floods a thread with, there’s always at least one sentence, like the one above, that rises irrepressibly above all the noise to show the total incoherence of a clueless crank. Which map are you referring to, Don, the one that shows you can’t get WV coal to New York without going through Mississippi?

  132. 132
    Don Williams

    @129:
    1) Again, Bernard Brodie’s deterrence only works if you know where the nuke came from. Are you going to start a nuclear war with Russia and China if they may have had nothing to do with Iran’s attack?

    And while you are figuring that out and investigating, Wall Street traders start jumping out the windows.

    2) You ignore the issue of a Russian or Chinese virtual takeover of Iran –in exchange for protection — after your attack. 20 major bases on the east bank of the Persian Gulf and several on the Indian Ocean. Right next to Saudi Arabia , Iraq and Pakistan.

    No more need for Chinese tankers to have to go past a thousand miles of coastline wide open to the US Navy — instead, a large , secure network of railroads carrying Middle Eastern oil into China’s interior.

  133. 133
    Don Williams

    @131: Thank you , Bee. Since You have discredited your own self as a moron, I no longer have to bother responding to you.

  134. 134
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #133

    Shorter Donaldo: Wah, wah, Bee showed me what a total schmuck I am so I’m going not respond to him any more, wah, wah.

  135. 135
    Don Williams

    @134:
    Oh dear — did God move Iran? Is it no longer the east bank of the Persian Gulf?

  136. 136
    Don Williams

    Let me put this in baby talk: If you nuke Iran then you hand it to China and Russia on a platter unless you take it over and occupy it.

    But how are we going to raise $9 Trillion for the occupation if China won’t lend us the money?

  137. 137
    smhll

    I would love to believe that the quoted essay was written by an unpaid (and unmotivated) intern, typing with one elbow while eating a burrito. But I guess that’s not the real explanation for the lack of coherence and logic.

    (Not trying to offend interns here, truly. My apologies in advance for my dismissive theory)

  138. 138
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #136

    If we hit Iran like I propose, there won’t be much to take over.

  139. 139
    Don Williams

    @138
    1) Come on SLC — I thought you knew physics. Analyze your Final Solution to the Iranian Problem. Pressue is rapidly diluted by expanding volume of a sphere — Radius cubed , remember?

    A 15 MT bomb has a damage radius of around 19.7 miles which gives a circular area of 1218 sq miles.

    Divide Iran’s 636372 sq miles by that and you need 522 of your bombs. And all you’ve done is some
    creative landclearing for the Chinese — those numbers are for optimized air strikes. Ground strikes to create fallout would cut the radius in half and I don’t see the point since the fallout radiation would decline to very low levels within a month. So the Chinese and Russians could move in without worrying about that insurgency thing.

    2) I know , I know. The practical details of genocide are very demoralizing — they used to make Adolf weep snot.

  140. 140
    colnago80

    Re DonWwilliams @ 139

    The only targets to be hit in the first wave are nuclear weapons production facilities. We only propose to hit other targets if Iran is stupid enough to retaliate. By the way, most of Iran is uninhabited desert so your numbers make no sense. Dropping bombs on uninhabited desert would be like dropping bombs on Death Valley.

  141. 141
    Raging Bee

    Oh dear, did God move China so it’s right next door to Iran?

    Seriously, where does Don get his maps from? I know Americans suck at geography, but this is truly ridiculous.

  142. 142
    colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #141

    Maybe ole Donaldo thinks that China will take over India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan.

  143. 143
    Don Williams

    @142:
    1) Why would they do that? China is hemmed in India way by the Himalayas but to the East, the only thing
    lying between them and Manifest Destiny is poor abandoned Afghanistan. How much would it cost to overthrow Karzai with the aid of the Taliban and Pakistan’s ISI?
    2) Or Pakistan could be the route. Given that Pakistan is leasing Gwadar port (next to Iran) to China and
    is providing an Economic Corridor to link China to the Persian Gulf, where is the problem in going a 100 more miles up the Iranian coast?

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2013%5C07%5C30%5Cstory_30-7-2013_pg5_9

    3) Russia, of course, already borders on Iran so no problem there.

    You guys don’t get out much, do you?

  144. 144
  145. 145
    Don Williams

    Heck — why not make that 500 miles up Iran’s Persian Gulf Coast? After all, China and Russia are also directly connected with Iran’s coast by international waters — so if Iran gives them naval ports, they can load
    up as many missiles, airplanes, munitions,etc as they like and carry them to the Persian Gulf. Anybody remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?

  146. 146
    Don Williams

    @140:
    Only problem is, you don’t know if “uninhabited desert” is uninhabited, do you? Remember Jimmy Carter’s Desert One landing site in the attempted hostage rescue?

  147. 147
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #143

    China is going to take over Afghanistan? How did that work out for the former Soviet Union. I say, have at it.

  148. 148
    Don Williams

    @147
    1) Well, I know how Zionists are wary of prolonged occupations so I’ll pass your concerns on to the Chinese
    next time I see them. Although I think they are more interested in a partnership than a hostile takeover.

    2) Of course, I remember that George W Bush promised Ariel, Bibi and the Likud that he would take care of Iran after dealing with Iraq first. Maybe Bibi should call George W and ask him when he is going to get around to that.

    3) Because the last time I checked, Tehran’s man Maliki is pretty much in charge. Not being a Neocon genius I never could figure out the value of replacing a 65 year old widely despised dictator –with a weak hold on power and a ruined economy — with a strong modern Shite nation allied with Iran and holding about 40 percent of the world’s oil reserves. No doubt you can explain it to me. I am sure the reasoning is profound.

  149. 149
    Don Williams

    Oh — and getting the USA to send $billions in military transfers/equipment and to train the new Military of that Shite nation– no doubt there is some cunning plan behind that.

    As I recall, Saddam’s army collapsed on the first day of US invasion — but would have been willing to return and work for the US if Wolfowitz and Feith had not had that brilliant idea of turning it into a major insurgency with CPA General Order 2.

    An insurgency that has pretty well destroyed the American voters taste for Middle Eastern military operations. No doubt there is some 11th Dimensional chess behind all that but I can’t figure it out.

  150. 150
    Don Williams

    1) Of course, Maliki gave Exxon and Chevron a piece of the action so Cheney has that little smirk on his face.

    Especially whenever Ahmadinejad makes dark hints re Israel’s future and a panicky Sheldon Adelson dashes off another $100 Million check to the RNC.

    2) Some people forget that ole Dick always had a soft spot in his heart for the Iranians:

    “Although the cheapest route would traverse Iran to the Persian Gulf, U.S. sanctions against Iran block this alternative. Cheney has lobbied long and hard, as recently as June, for the lifting of those sanctions, to lubricate the Iran-Caspian connection. This is consistent with his position, described in a 1997 article in The Oil and Gas Journal, that oil and gas companies must do business in countries with policies unpalatable to the U.S.”

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-08-10/news/0008100507_1_caspian-oil-caspian-sea-gas-journal

  151. 151
    democommie

    “@131:

    Thank you , Bee. Since You have discredited your own self as a moron, I no longer have to bother responding to you.”

    What the commenter formerly known as slc1 said. If only enough people would pwn Dondi maybe he would slink off to the Graveyard of the Trolls (rumored to be in Glennie Blek’s backyard, or maybe it’s his toilet) to commune with Milesius, the threadpirate mroberts, Isabel and the rest of the douchebags who finally, inevitably, leave the threads.

    What I’d like to know, Dondi, is how you can get so much jizz on the screen of your ‘puter without completely gummin’ up the keyboard.

  152. 152
    Don Williams

    @151
    No doubt they were just overwhelmed by the sheer brilliance of commenters such as yourself. I mean, one would normally have to visit a bowling alley to meet intellectuals of your quality.

  153. 153
    colnago80

    Re democommie @ #151

    Hey, I like having ole Donaldo around to spread his conspiracy theories. A little levity doesn’t hurt anyone.

    Re Don Williams @ #148

    Because the last time I checked, Tehran’s man Maliki is pretty much in charge. Not being a Neocon genius I never could figure out the value of replacing a 65 year old widely despised dictator –with a weak hold on power and a ruined economy — with a strong modern Shite nation allied with Iran and holding about 40 percent of the world’s oil reserves.

    Somehow I don’t think that Maliki is nearly as strong as ole Donaldo claims. For instance, Kurdistan in northern Iraq is semi-independent and controls a goodly percentage of Iraq’s oil Also the Sunnis are rather restive and are setting off roadside bombs at a goodly pace. Ole Maliki has his own fish to fry.

  154. 154
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #145

    Now I don’t claim to be a great naval strategist but it would seem that basing Russian and Chinese naval units in the Persian Gulf is not a good idea. The entrance to the Persian Gulf at the southern end where it empties into the Indian Ocean can easily be closed to shipping by the US Navy, which even in these troubled times is still No. 1 by far in the world.

  155. 155
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams

    I would also point out that Russia’s ally, Bashar Assad in Syria, is hanging on by his fingernails.

  156. 156
    Don Williams

    @154
    1) By naval bases I was referring more to bases that could attack US naval units and oil tankers. Aircraft,
    underground missile silos, mobile missile launchers, etc plus units to defend them. Enough to shut down oil shipments for months absent our use of nuclear weapons.

    2) KInda like what the Chinese have set up across the Straits from Taiwan to greet US carrier task forces.

    3) Do we still have the upper hand? Of course. But the thing about being the world’s richest nation is that you also have a LOT to lose. Let people’s SUV fuel price double and their taxes increase and they will be ready to feed ole Sheldon into a woodchipper face first. And roast Newt’s fat arse over a spit.

  157. 157
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #164

    By naval bases I was referring more to bases that could attack US naval units and oil tankers. Aircraft,underground missile silos, mobile missile launchers, etc plus units to defend them. Enough to shut down oil shipments for months absent our use of nuclear weapons.

    Of course, the problem here is that China, which 2 decades ago was oil independent is now also importing large quantities of oil from the Middle East. Shutting down the Persian Gulf to oil shipments would thus be shooting themselves in the foot. Not to mention the fact that China is now dependent on coal imports from Australia which would also be shut down in the event of a confrontation. It would seem that China has every incentive not to cause trouble in the Persian Gulf.

  158. 158
    Don Williams

    No, the difference is that the USA now controls Middle Eastern oil and can shut it off to China while maintaining the flow to EU and Japan. Just like FDR was able to shut off the flow to Japan in the runup to Pearl Harbor.

    But after your nuke attack, Iran will strongly ally itself with Russia and China –will give them bases in Iran — thereby giving those countries the NEW ability to shut off oil to the USA, EU and Japan. And EU and Japan are important because our economy is intertwined with theirs. Why do you think we overthrew Mossadagh in the 1950s and put the Shah on the throne — well, aside from BP’s request.

    Plus China and Russia will be able to establish a network of railroads connecting them with the Persian Gulf — carrying munitions one way and oil back into the interior. Versus having to use oceanic shipping lanes thousands of miles long that are vulnerable to the US Navy.

  159. 159
    Don Williams

    PS China still has almost 13% of the world’s coal reserves — more than Australia. She is importing from the USA and Australia to partially save her native deposits for backup in the event of war — akin to our Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#World_coal_reserves

    Plus she will acquire fracking tech which will allow her to shift part of her electrical production to gas — especially since there are also huge gas deposits on her western border in the Caspian Sea area.

  160. 160
    Don Williams

    PS Off topic, a recent PBS article you might find of interest. I think their explanation is incomplete, at least for the past 300 years– but interesting.

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/08/jewish-literacy-as-the-road-to.html

  161. 161
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #159

    If coal imports were suddenly cut off, China would be in deep doo doo. It is true that they have large coal deposits but the infrastructure to take advantage of those deposits can’t be set up instantaneously. There would be a considerable lapse of time before Chinese coal deposits could be exploited and given that most of the electricity produced there is from coal burning power plants, the shortage of electricity would bring on the collapse of the Chinese economy. As for natural gas, that too, as in the US which has large deposits of frackable natural gas, can’t be exploited instantaneously. Thus, it is not in the Chinese interest to provoke the US into shutting down coal imports until the infrastructure to take advantage of natural gas is in place. In addition, the conversion of coal burning plants to natural gas can’t be done instantaneously.

    Incidentally, here’s another slant on Iranian retaliation for an attack on its nuclear facilities.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-would-barely-retaliate-if-its-nuclear-program-were-attacked/

  162. 162
    dingojack

    Uh Don based on the numbers for 2010 (the most recent I could find) China is:
    Importing 6.0509% of production or 5.2801% of consumption. Hardly holding much is reserve there. By comparison the figures for the US are 3.5560% and 3.3720% respectively. Is the US half-expecting war?
    OBTW as of late 2008 China had about 114,500 million tons of coal reserves which at that rate of production will run out in 2048, and at that rate of consumption would run out in 2046. I’m sure the US will be happy to make China pay top dollar for a share of US reserves (due to run out in 2231 and 2219,respectively).
    Dingo
    ——-
    I’m sure it’s all to o with precious, precious bodily fluids, right Don? You explain it us (we could do with a good laugh).

  163. 163
    colnago80

    Re dingojack the chihuahua

    I doubt very much that anyone will be burning coal for electricity production in the 23rd century.

  164. 164
    colnago80

    Re dingojack the chihuahua @ #162

    I find the rather low import figure for China rather surprising. I was under the impression that imports from Australia were quite large, especially given the fact that China has been building coal burning power plants at a furious rate to keep up with demand for electricity. I would be willing to wager that the figures as we sit here today are considerably higher and they ain’t going to go down in the foreseeable future, unless China finds new deposits.

  165. 165
    dingojack

    SLC – Me too.
    China’s figures are what one would call ‘rubbery’. However US’s are expected to be a little more concrete (I would suppose). Be that as it may, it rather puts Doniken’s theory in doubt*.
    Dingo
    ——-
    * see my footnote above.

  166. 166
    Raging Bee

    Russia, of course, already borders on Iran so no problem there.

    No, you fucking moron, it doesn’t. Iran is adjacent to Georgia, Turmenistan and Azarbaijan to the north (that’s “up” in most maps, in case you need a reminder). Georgia and Azarbaijan border on Russia, but it’s a part of Russia that’s isolated by mountains and populated by Chechens and other non-Russian minorities who are kinda resistant to Russian rule.

    And Turkmenistan doesn’t border on Russia either, you’d have to go through Kazakhstan first.

    Don, in addition to being an obnoxious trolling threadjacking asshole, you’re irredeemably stupid and not even willing to spend one minute looking at a map. And your stupidity shows in every fucking thread you hijack. Fuck off to bed and let the grownups talk — we don’t need you for anything.

  167. 167
    Raging Bee

    Correction: Iran also borders in Armenia, not Georgia. Georgia borders on Armenia and Azarbaijan, not Iran directly. Either way, Don is at least as geographically illiterate as the stereotypical American, and probably a lot more so.

  168. 168
    Don Williams

    @167 You are a dumbshit, Bee. Russia and Iran both have long borders on the Caspian Sea. Given the amount of oil under it, they are currently negotiating what belongs to Russia, what belongs to Iran and what will be left to Chevron.

    More to the point, ships can directly connect the railroads of Iran with the Railroads of Russia with no need to go through Georgia, Azerbaijan,etc. What can stop them — the Navy of Armenia?

    Not that it makes any difference — Putin’s invasion of Georgia in order to pile up satchel charges next to that big oil pipeline Clinton built shows everyone that Russia and Iran will run Central Asia. As I noted, Russia already has a North South Corridor to link up with Iran.

    Iran is trying to maintain its independence as a nation state. Fuck with it as SLC urges and you end up with one –maybe two — far more powerful enemies of ours on the Persian Gulf and in the middle of the Middle East
    right next to Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

  169. 169
    Raging Bee

    So fucking what? You’ve still proven yourself both geographically illiterate and irredeemably stupid. That’s the only reason slc1 needs to argue with you: you’re the only one here who can make him look intelligent.

  170. 170
    Don Williams

    Need to get that projection under control, Bee. hee hee
    Here — cut and paste this in the future: “Don Williams is a big poop”

    That will save you those exhausting, infuriating battles with the spellchecking software and lower your blood pressure.

  171. 171
    Don Williams

    dingo at 162 and SLC:

    China is shifting to nuclear power plants for electrical power generation — in part because it is easier to build such plants near sources of demand in the developing South than to expand rail systems to schlep coal 1500 miles from the North (or accept transmission losses):

    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-A-F/China–Nuclear-Power/#.UhZEZurD9D8

    Of course, Australia has those big uranium deposits just sitting there — claimed by 20 million people and needed by 1.3 Billion.

    If you see a US sailor, dingo, you should offer him a blow job. I don’t think you have enough women to protect you:

    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iv-GYMj8L.jpg

  172. 172
    Don Williams

    Of course, since Australian Agent of Influence Rupert Murdoch promoted an unnecessary US war in Iraq that pissed away $3 Trillion, the US Navy may need to borrow the money from the Chinese. Who in Australian Intelligence had that brainstorm?

  173. 173
    Don Williams

    A little tutorial for Bee:

    http://www.ensec.org/index.php?view=article&catid=106%3Aenergysecuritycontent0510&id=244%3Athe-caspians-unsettled-legal-framework-energy-security-implications&tmpl=component&print=1&page=&option=com_content

    1) The Astara-Hasankuli line was the boundary between the USSR and Iran on the Caspian Sea.

    2) With the breakup of the USSR, the five nations bordering the Caspian Sea have NOT divided it
    up with national boundaries. Instead , they agreed that:
    a) Ships of all Five are free to travel on the surface
    b) Ships of outside nations will NOT be allowed on the Sea
    c) No one in the group of five will allow its coast to be used as a base by outside powers

    3) What they have not settled out is how the SEABED will be divided up — for purposes of oil drilling.

    4) From the viewpoint of shipping, Russia borders on Iran
    5) Russia kept the Caspian Sea fleet after the breakup of USSR — she and Iran are the significant
    naval forces on the Sea.

  174. 174
    colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #169

    That’s a low blow.

  175. 175
    colnago80

    Re Don Williams @ #171

    Unfortunately, China is still building coal burning power plants at a furious pace. It will be a long time before nuclear comes on line in sufficient quantities to allow shutdown of coal burning power plants. According to you link Donaldo, 1.8% of Chinese electricity is produced from nuclear plants compared to 80% from coal. This compares with US figures of 19% and 42% respectively. They have a long way to go.

    Just for yuks, China has now passed that US as the leading producer of greenhouse gasses, due almost entirely to coal burning power plants.

  176. 176
  177. 177
    Marcus Ranum

    I have to apologize for hijacking the thread

    Since when did you start worrying about that?
    Are you sure this topic can’t somehow relate to Israel? I’m sure you can come up with some flimsy reason…

  178. 178
    Marcus Ranum

    That’s a low blow.

    …says the guys who’s idea of sophisticated argument is to call people who disagree with him anti-semites.

  179. 179
    dingojack

    Uh rwo things Donikens –
    1) China ain’t gonna invade anyone. They’ve got plenty of their own problems.
    2). Rupert who? Ain’t no Australian of that name.
    Dingo

  1. 180

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