Wingnut on Wingnut Crime: Beck vs Shoebat

Walid Shoebat, the right wing’s favorite fake “ex-terrorist,” went on Rick Wiles’ TruNews radio show and he and his son Theodore launched a blistering and incoherent attack on Glenn Beck. Because Beck is leading people to “Chrislam” and this has something to do with deism and…well, just read it. See if you can make any sense out of it.

Walid Shoebat: Glenn Beck isn’t really calling for Christianity. He lies when he says ‘I’m a Christian, I believe in salvation through Jesus Christ’ because he, number one, denies the Trinity; number two, he’s a deist. In other words, he believes Muslims and Mormons and all the cults together, Buddhists, believe in God and everybody should conform to this deistic view in belief in God. Why? Because we have a more important thing to deal with and that is the salvation of the country as a nation.

Theodore Shoebat: Why is Glenn Beck so fascinated with universalism? Why does he keep pushing universalism? Because it is part of his religion. People need to understand this about Mormonism. Mormonism is an extreme version of Chrislam. Joseph Smith observed the most extreme form of Islam you could ever imagine. In 1855, the earliest leaders of Mormonism, of the Latter-Day Saints, got together specifically to exalt the Prophet Muhammad. Joseph Smith stated that Muhammad was a prophet of god and that Muhammad suffered just as I have suffered; he paralleled himself to Muhammad. And in a very famous speech he made, the speech called ‘Al-Koran or The Sword,’ Joseph Smith stated ‘in this generation, I will be the second Muhammad. Where it was in his generation the Koran or the sword, it will be in this generation Joseph Smith or the sword.’

Walid Shoebat: The Latter-Day Saints church has sought to respect Islamic laws, that is sharia – that’s the thing that Glenn Beck claims to be fighting – and traditions that prohibit conversions of Muslims to other faiths by adopting a policy of non-proselytizing in Islamic countries in the Middle East. In other words, Mormons are not allowed to proselytize to Muslims in the Middle East. Why? Because basically they have the same faith.

Here’s the audio:

35 comments on this post.
  1. Akira MacKenzie:

    You don’t know what a fucking “deist” is, do you Shoebat? If you do, then you’re counting on the very-high probability that your gullible, Bible-humping listeners will not fact-check your lies.

    I’m an atheist, and I have as much love and respect for deism as I do any other form of god-belief (i.e. none at all), but at least I have enough intellectual honesty to do my homework about what my opponents actually believe before I argue against them.

  2. CaitieCat:

    I thought the Trinity was a Catholic thing, not a whole-Christianity thing? And are Mormons not Christians more or less?

    Sorry, not raised as one, don’t actually know all the little quirks of each sect, Gourdians or the Shoebearers or what. So many bizarrely different interpretations, so little time giving a fuck.

    Shoebat’s only one of the more obvious (neo)con artists around; frankly, this all sounds rather like inside-baseball for Grifters For Jeebus Inc.

  3. Modusoperandi:

    Akira MacKenzie “…at least I have enough intellectual honesty to do my homework about what my opponents actually believe before I argue against them.”
    Accuracy is an impediment in wingnuttery. Plus it’s a bunch of extra work that’s completely unnecessary. Think of him (and Beck, for that matter) as apologists, not teachers. They aren’t there to teach the audience; they’re there to reinforce what it already knows to be true (that being, generally, “Four legs good. Two legs bad”).
    Anyway, forget all that and simply bask in the glow of them turning on each other.

  4. frankb:

    Well, you see, Glenn Beck is making millions and the Shoebats aren’t. That is what Walid and Theodore are really upset about.

  5. Hercules Grytpype-Thynne:

    @CaitieCat

    It’s pretty much an all-Christianity thing, with some exceptions (listed here. I grew up Methodist, and vividly remember singing this:

    Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
    Early in the morning our song shall rise to thee.
    Holy, holy, holy! Merciful and mighty,
    God in three persons, blessed Trinity!

  6. CaitieCat:

    Thank you, Hercules! Much appreciated.

    From the outside, it all seems just…strange. And so much strangeness – in quantity and quality – that it makes it hard to dig into it in such a way as to get a handle on the bits that people think are important, without also having to digest a lot of empty-fibre as well, if you don’t mind the metaphorical miscibility there.

  7. coragyps:

    Callie – when you have pieces of the Body of Christ that insist that you must “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” instead of just “believing” or “believing in”, you can see that Doctrine is pretty weird. And those folks that “believe on” tend to think that Mormons are even worse devil worshippers than Catholics are.

  8. CaitieCat:

    coragyps – that is just…weird.

    To me, it all sounds like the People’s Front of Judea sketch in LoB. The only thing the squabbling factions can agree on is that “at least we’re not MUSLIM (SPLITTERS!)”.

  9. Modusoperandi:

    CaitieCat “And so much strangeness – in quantity and quality – that it makes it hard to dig into it in such a way as to get a handle on the bits that people think are important, without also having to digest a lot of empty-fibre as well,”
    Now you’re just being ridiculous. It’s all empty fibre. And each group’s “important bits” are another’s “crazy shit”.
    Besides, everybody knows that God is a Deciligy. It’s all there in the Prayer of Ten Fingers. Here’s a pamphlet to get you started. And don’t let those heretics who pray to God’s Ten Toes lead you astray. Those people are in a cult. Don’t get me wrong, God’s toes are pretty important. They just aren’t that important. Here’s a pamplet explaining why the Toeists are wrong and we, the Fingerers, right.

  10. dingojack:

    Is it just me, or does Walid Shoebat remind you of this guy?
    Dingo

  11. raven:

    I thought the Trinity was a Catholic thing, not a whole-Christianity thing? And are Mormons not Christians more or less?

    The god is three in one group are Trinitarians. Catholics and most but not all Protestants.

    The Trinity got established through centuries of arguments and a fair amount of dead bodies and isn’t even really found in the bible. They still disagree on lots of other doctrine.

    Some xian groups are non-Trinitarian, the JW’s and some Unitarians among others.

    The Mormons aren’t considered xians much less Trinitarians according to most xians and xian clergy. God and jesus are just humans who have been around a while and climbed the celestial ladder. There are a near infinite number of gods but they aren’t all powerful. Eventually all humans can be gods.

    Hmmm, whoops. You have to be male, Mormon, and a polygamist to achieve godhood and get your own planet and herd of goddess wives. According to a male, Mormon polygamist anyway.

    Go with the Scientologists instead. You can become a god without even dying and all it costs is a few hundred thousand dollars. Cheap for what it is.

  12. raven:

    Shoebat and Wiles are just playing at an old xian tradition.

    Sectarian hatred.

    Xians and Mormons traditionally don’t get along and they used to kill each other. Both claim to be the One True Cult. The Southern Baptists complain about the Mormons sending missionaries into their territory. While sending missionaries to the Morridor.

    The Mormons fought it out with the xians in the midwest and lost. Then they moved to Utah and fought a war of secession with the USA. And lost again.

    Fort Douglas is an army base right above SLC with its guns pointed down at the city. It was established to keep an eye on the Mormons after the Utah war. It is still there. Just in case.

  13. raven:

    For fans of xian trivia:

    wikipedia

    Modern nontrinitarian Christian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah’s Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.

    There were lots more nonTrinitarians in the past. The Arians, Albigensians and so on. They are now dead. In some cases, killed off by…the Trinitarians.

  14. Barefoot Bree:

    Coragyps @7:

    Callie – when you have pieces of the Body of Christ that insist that you must “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” instead of just “believing” or “believing in”, you can see that Doctrine is pretty weird. And those folks that “believe on” tend to think that Mormons are even worse devil worshippers than Catholics are.

    Coragyps, can you explain that “believe on” concept to me? Seriously, I’ve never understood what is meant by that – I always took it to be a simple grammar mistake (that just rubbed me the wrong way). I never knew that people took it up deliberately, and that it meant something different from “believe in”. I still don’t get what it does mean, though. Help, please?

  15. dan4:

    “In other words, Mormons are not allowed to proselytize in the Middle East. Why? Because basically they have the same faith.”

    Uh, wouldn’t Mormons not being allowed to proselytize in the Middle East indicate that the two faiths are NOT the same?

  16. jason the cripple:

    As someone who was raised Mormon, let me correct a few things here.

    Mormons do believe in the Trinity…kinda. While most christian religions (specifically the Catholics) believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are somehow the same being doing three different jobs (a weird justification to say that they are still a monotheistic religion). Mormons believe that they are three distinct entities. God and Jesus have “bodies of flesh and bone”, while the Holy Ghost is ethereal.

    I had never heard of the “Al-Koran or The Sword” speech ( I can imagine it’s not something they’re proud of anymore, along with a lot of old doctrines) it would not surprise me that he made that speech. Mohammad and Joseph Smith were both the creators of new religions.

    The only thing similar between Mormon rules and Sharia Law are the prohibition of alcohol. There are no dietary restrictions like halal, with the exception of “hot drinks” (that’s the way it’s stated in the Doctrine and Covenants, and some Mormons include all caffeine containing drinks as taboo also).

    Mormons are also not allowed to proselytize in Israel. As far as I know, it’s the local governments that have forbidden Mormon missionaries from entering the country, instead of the church not allowing them to go.

  17. gopiballava:

    @dan4:
    “Uh, wouldn’t Mormons not being allowed to proselytize in the Middle East indicate that the two faiths are NOT the same?”

    The claim is that the Mormon church agreed not to proselytize in the Middle East. Because they are already the same religion.

    Given how kindly – or, in most cases, not – proselytizers are treated in the region, I don’t see this promise as meaningful or relevant. They wouldn’t let the missionaries in, and would expel any they discovered had snuck in.

  18. matty1:

    Joseph Smith observed the most extreme form of Islam you could ever imagine.

    Does Mormonism
    -Ban education for girls
    -Carry out public beheadings
    -Demand that anyone who leaves the religion be killed
    -Support suicide bombings?

    These are things I would associate with extreme forms of Islam, not all Islam I’d like to emphasise but the extreme kinds. I’ve not head of Mormons doing these things and criticism of them is not exactly hard to locate.

  19. thomasmorris:

    Mormons are also not allowed to proselytize in Israel. As far as I know, it’s the local governments that have forbidden Mormon missionaries from entering the country, instead of the church not allowing them to go.

    I believe this is the case. I went to BYU, and spent a semester at the Jerusalem Center – and one of the things they hammered into our heads before we left the US and once we got to Israel was that we were absolutely not allowed to proselytize to anyone in the country. I may be misremembering, but I think it was actually part of their agreement with local leaders when they were seeking permission to build the Center in Jerusalem.

    A lot of the students at the Center had already gone on missions, so I remember lots of complaining (and testimony bearing during church meetings) about how hard it was to not “share the truth with these people.”

    But yeah, the whole “Mormonism is the same as Islam” thing is a joke. There are some parallels between the two religions, but they also teach a lot of radically different things.

    I haven’t been a believing Mormon for many years now, but I still get annoyed at some of the random shit people make up to attack the church – there are enough real, historical reasons to condemn Mormonism as a fraud, there’s no need to make things up. It just gives true believing Mormons some straw men to attack (“You see, these statements about the Church aren’t true, therefore all criticisms of the Church are false and inaccurate and Satanic and stuff.”)

  20. caseloweraz:

    As I understand it, fierce were the debates between homoousians and homoiousians (to use the Greek-derived terms) — those who believed that the Trinity was one spiritual entity manifesting itself in three different ways, and those who held it to be made up of three similar but distinct spiritual entities.

  21. coragyps:

    Bree – I once read a pretty long article the purported to explain why “believe on” is different than “believe in.” I think what it actually came down to was that there is some occurance of “believe on” in the 1611 King James Bible, and since that is the verbatim transcript of what Jesus and the Apostles said, it has to be what you need to be doing.
    Really, the explanation was there, but so very unimpressive that it didn’t stick in my memory even until the end of the article. The true explanation is surely that prepositions are not identical in all respects in Greek and in the English of King James I, and not identical in His Majesty’s English and today’s English. Not that you would ever get that idea from the “believe on” groups out there in Evanglland.

  22. Hercules Grytpype-Thynne:

    @jason

    As someone who was raised trinitarian, let me correct you on one thing. If “Mormons believe that they are three distinct entities,” then that means they don’t believe in the Trinity as commonly understood, which specifically means “three persons comprised in a single entity.” I don’t know what I’d call the Mormon belief you describe, but it’s certainly not trinitarian. Polytheistic, perhaps?

  23. criticaldragon1177:

    Ed Brayton

    So Shoebat expects us to believe Mormanism is a hybrid between Islam and Christian, and that Mormans regard Mohammad as a Prophet? Does the book of Mormon even mention Muhammad? I don’t think it does. Also Muslims wouldn’t exactly accept the book of Mormon as a sacred text. They would reject it, much like Mormons reject the Qur’an.

    Also, Deists don’t believe that all faiths are correct.

    Oh and one more blow to his idea Mormons do try to convert Muslims contrary to everything he just said.

    http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=view_other_articles&story_id=535&cat_id=30

    http://religionandpolitics.org/2012/08/15/what-are-mormon-missionaries-doing-in-kosovo/

  24. Stevarious, Public Health Problem:

    can you explain that “believe on” concept to me? Seriously, I’ve never understood what is meant by that

    In theory, it is supposed to mean that it’s a thing that you accept as true while knowing for a fact that Jesus is totally real. It’s a grammatical trick used by apologists to discredit ex-believers that can be quite convincing to other believers. The apologist can essentially say “Ah, but did you accept these concepts as true while knowing for a fact that Jesus is really really real?”
    The ex-believer will only be able to honestly respond ‘No’, because of course there’s no way to ‘know’ the reality of Jesus. At which point the apologist can claim that the ex-believer was never a Real True Christian™. Since 99% of apologetics is actually about retaining believers, as opposed to the stated goal of converting non-believers, it’s a very effective tactic.

    In practice – as a believer – it means ‘think about Jesus really really hard when you talk about or think about these subjects’. It’s functionally meaningless.

  25. iangould:

    “Well, you see, Glenn Beck is making millions and the Shoebats aren’t. That is what Walid and Theodore are really upset about.”

    Glenn’s been getting more publicity in wingnut circles lately due to his frankly insane claims that he’s going to break a story that will bring down the entire Washington power elite Any Day Now.

    So the less successful con-man is trying to attach himself to the more successful like a remora to a shark.

  26. JoeBuddha:

    As an actual Buddhist, I don’t know any Buddhists who you could call Deists…

  27. Barefoot Bree:

    Thanks Coragyps and Stevarious.Those both help and sound plausible – especially together.

    At least, that’s my story now and I’ll be sticking to it.

  28. Markita Lynda—threadrupt:

    The Trinity (well, this particular trinity) is a Roman Catholic and Protestant idea. The Orthodox church recognizes God and the Holy Spirit. The western heresy elevates the Son to equivalent status, complete with altering biblical text to prove their point. See Christianity in view.

  29. criticaldragon1177:

    #25 Iangould

    you wrote,
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————-
    Glenn’s been getting more publicity in wingnut circles lately due to his frankly insane claims that he’s going to break a story that will bring down the entire Washington power elite Any Day Now.

    So the less successful con-man is trying to attach himself to the more successful like a remora to a shark.
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————-

    More like destroy him

  30. dingojack:

    RE: ‘believing on’

    Like in John 3:18 you mean?

    “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (King James)
    - or in the Greek:
    “ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο δε μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου”. (1550 Stephanus NT)
    [note the words I have emphasised].

    :) Dingo

  31. unemployedphilosopher:

    @Dingo:

    How do you manage the Greek coding in the blog thinger? (Also, the Stephanus is nice, but I prefer the more recent UBS). (What? Quoting the NT in Greek is good for baiting door-to-door Jesus salespeople, and I am easily thus amused.)

  32. tbp1:

    I read the transcript on Right Wing Watch before Ed put it here and destroyed far too many brain cells trying to figure out what they were saying. The idea that Mormonism is essentially equivalent to Islam is truly bizarre, even by radical religious right standards.

  33. markr1957:

    caseloweraz @ #20

    fierce were the debates between homoousians and homoiousians

    As I recall people died for that ‘i’, and many a running battle through the streets took place for it according to Hector Avalos – Fighting Words: The Origins Of Religious Violence.

  34. kermit.:

    dan4: Uh, wouldn’t Mormons not being allowed to proselytize in the Middle East indicate that the two faiths are NOT the same?
    .
    You want them to be honest, informed, and rational? You do dream big, don’t you?

  35. Nick Gotts:

    There were lots more nonTrinitarians in the past. The Arians, Albigensians and so on. They are now dead. In some cases, killed off by…the Trinitarians. – raven

    Well, be fair – they were heretics, after all. We know that, because the killers’ ideological descendants tell us so, and we can surely be confident that God always made sure the side of a doctrinal dispute that was right, also had the most weapons and the best troops. Surely.

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