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May 31 2013

Kokesh Calls for Armed Revolution

Adam Kokesh, the unhinged nutball who is organizing a march on Washington by more than 5000 armed people on July 4, is now going even further and calling for an armed march on all 50 state capitals to begin a “new American revolution” by dissolving the federal government.

“A new American revolution is long overdue. This revolution has been brewing in the hearts and minds of the people for many years, but this Independence Day, it shall take a new form as the American Revolutionary Army will march on each state capital to demand that the governors of these 50 states immediately initiate the process of an orderly dissolution of the federal government through secession and reclamation of federally held property. Should one whole year from this July 4th pass while the crimes of this government are allowed to continue, we may have passed the point at which non-violent revolution becomes impossible.

“The time to sit idly by has passed. To remain neutral is to be complicit, just doing your job is not an excuse, and the line in the sand has been drawn between the people, and the criminals in Washington, D.C. While some timid souls will say that it is too early, that we can solve this problem through democratic means provided by government, that current levels of taxation are reasonable for the services provided, and that the crimes of this government are merely a tolerable nuisance, it may already be too late.

“While there is risk in drastic action, the greater danger lies in allowing this government to continue unchallenged. So if you are content with the status quo, stay home, get fat, watch the fireworks from a safe distance, and allow this Independence Day to pass like any other. But if you see as we see, and feel as we feel, we will see you on the front lines of freedom on July 4th, 2013 for this, The Final American Revolution.”

I don’t see any way that could possibly end well.

68 comments

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  1. 1
    slc1

    I believe that there are laws on the books from the 1950s that declare that advocating the violent overthrow of the government is a felony.

  2. 2
    daved

    So is Kokesh going to be out in the front lines, leading the glorious revolution, or is he going to be sitting at home, letting others do the heavy lifting?

  3. 3
    richardelguru

    “I don’t see any way that could possibly end well.”

    A lotta dead wingnutz??

    No! No!!

    Bad Richard!!

  4. 4
    davefitz

    What problem does he have his panties in a bunch over that he’s asking me to risk my life for? Some imagined tyranny? Sorry, I’m generally content with the status quo. Enough so that I’m not going to risk my life.

  5. 5
    Trebuchet

    I’m pretty sure I saw something recently that even Alex Jones called Kokesh Crazy. Can’t find it now so I may be wrong.

  6. 6
    otrame

    we may have passed the point at which non-violent revolution becomes impossible.

    I believe there is evidence to suggest that we passed that point about 1787 or thereabouts.

  7. 7
    Tabby Lavalamp

    My only concern with the dissolution of the United States into smaller nation states is who will end up with the nuclear weapons. Other than that, I can’t see it being a bad thing if the most powerful rogue nation in the world became a bunch of smaller, less powerful nations.

  8. 8
    danielkim

    @daved:
    It would seem that Kokesh is in jail for allegedly assaulting a police officer.

  9. 9
    Randomfactor

    Kokesh…sounds furrin to me. Problem one o’them Mooslim terrorists.

  10. 10
    O-P-E

    Did that guy seriously rip-off a good portion of that from V for Vendetta?

  11. 11
    Eristae

    While some timid souls will say that it is too early, that we can solve this problem through democratic means provided by government, that current levels of taxation are reasonable for the services provided, and that the crimes of this government are merely a tolerable nuisance, it may already be too late.

    *eyeroll*

    Rather than worrying about it being “too early,” the nit ought to be worrying about what’s going to happen if what is probably technologically advanced military in the world decides to go crazy on his ass. We’re having enough trouble with the whole armed drone strikes against people in the middle east; does he really think actual traitors engaged in armed insurrection would be exempt? There’s a reason that 9/11 had such a dramatic impact on our lives” while the people of the USA may be content to ignore whatever deaths are happening across the planet, they are not used to seeing war come to their shores. If he thinks that they’ll accept him shooting people in our streets, he is most mistaken.

  12. 12
    otrame

    @8 Well, I must say I have seldom been less surprised by a news item.

  13. 13
    otrame

    Oh, and I personally don’t think the tax levels are ” reasonable for the services provided”. The tax levels are far too low for the the services provided.

  14. 14
    raven

    we may have passed the point at which non-violent revolution becomes impossible.

    I’ve heard and seen comments and actions like that and just recently.

    Hmmm, who was it? IIRC, it was Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and the Tsarniev brothers in Boston.

    It’s just the xian Taliban again.

  15. 15
    Trebuchet

    @#8:

    It would seem that Kokesh is in jail for allegedly assaulting a police officer.

    Not any more. He was released on May 24. I find it hilarious somehow that his arrest was at a pro-pot rally. Then again he’s a confirmed Ron Paul supporter so that kind of fits.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Kokesh#cite_note-44

    That Wiki note links to Alex Jones’ site, if you’ve the stomach for it. I don’t.

  16. 16
    spike13

    Considering that this clown appears to currently be languishing in federal lock up,(held w/o bail) I wonder if he’ll be out to get arrested in DC.
    Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it illegal to wander around DC strapped and packing?

  17. 17
    D. C. Sessions

    I don’t see any way that could possibly end well.

    End well? Yeah, I can see some.

    It’s the middle that has the potential to be really, really ugly.

    Example: the march on DC is met by a counter-demostration composed of the mothers of children killed by gun violence — including the Sandy Hook moms. And the marchers, of course, have to defend themselves …

  18. 18
    D. C. Sessions

    I believe that there are laws on the books from the 1950s that declare that advocating the violent overthrow of the government is a felony.

    Undoubtedly unconstitutional, given that the whole point of the Second Amendment is to enable that very same violent overthrow.

  19. 19
    Who Knows?

    I don’t see any way that could possibly end well.

    I don’t know, a few 155 howitzer shell raining on their parade would seem like a good ending.

  20. 20
    umlud

    Hmm… Sounds like another call for a civil war. I guess we’ll have to name a military base after these self-declared domestic enemies of the United States.

  21. 21
    leftwingfox

    I don’t see any way that could possibly end well.

    A massive no-show, followed by a furious hatewank on his blog?

  22. 22
    d.c.wilson

    Imagine how unhinged he’d be if the government actually was trying to seize his guns and raise the tax rates to what they were in the 1950s.

  23. 23
    tuxedocartman

    Forget the drones and what not; what I’d REALLY like to see is an AC-130 doing lazy circles around each protest, towing a banner that reads, “The US Government welcomes participants of the Final American Revolution!”

  24. 24
    Gregory in Seattle

    Is it treason YET?

  25. 25
    erichoug

    I don’t see any way that could possibly end well.

    DAMN IT, everyone beat me to the joke about dead wingnuts.

    But, for those of you talking about arrest and prosecution for treason, remember that only provides them with validation for their sense of victimization and martyrdom. Of course if they actually start shooting, it’s probably cheaper and easier to go with the Howitzer idea above.

  26. 26
    Xaivius (Formerly Robpowell, Acolyte of His Majesty Lord Niel DeGrasse Tyson I)

    @Greg

    /pedant John Morales style

    actually, this is not treason yet. No war has been declared, nor offensive actions taken. This is, however, sedition, which is still a nasty felony if you can prove it.

    /pedant off

    Anyway, I can’t see this being good. It’s hard enough to control a large (>1000) body of angry, peaceful protesters. The SLIGHTEST spark and shit goes wrong quickly.

    Now, lets say they all have guns.

    /shudder

  27. 27
    timgueguen

    Someone should call in SG1. Kokesh sounds suspiciously like a Goa’uld name to me.

  28. 28
    chilidog99

    “Adam fought the Man and. . .
    The Man won”

    (With Appologies to Bobby Fuller)

  29. 29
    atheist

    Despite the dangerous madness he’s involved himself in, in my eyes Adam Kokesh is more than just a wingnut. I first learned of him in a completely different context, when he was protesting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, along with “Iraq Veterans Against War”. I find it strange that he’s gone from protesting against wars to advocating violent revolution, but reading his Wikipedia page I guess I can see the thread.

  30. 30
    atheist

    The Final American Revolution

    There’s a disturbingly apocalyptic sound to that.

  31. 31
    grumpyoldfart

    Kokesh probably thinks that after the revolution he will be in power and calling the shots. He’ll get a surprise when the big-money boys move in and cast him aside like a piece of shit.

  32. 32
    laurentweppe

    But, for those of you talking about arrest and prosecution for treason, remember that only provides them with validation for their sense of victimization and martyrdom

    Well, that reminds me that one of the french homophobic bigot received a deferred sentence of 18 months in prison for assaulting two cops and one journalist during the anti-marriage demonstrations.

    Predicatably, the bigots have claimed that this “proves” that the left is the “real fascism” and that its members crave putting their political opponents in jail.

  33. 33
    tommykey

    One of my gripes with these overthrow the government types is that there definition of tyranny doesn’t jibe with mine or many other Americans. Are these people going to shoot me for opposing them? Who gets to decide what qualifies as a tyrannical government that neesd to be violently overthrown?

  34. 34
    Marcus Ranum

    what I’d REALLY like to see is an AC-130 doing lazy circles around each protest, towing a banner that reads, “The US Government welcomes participants of the Final American Revolution!”

    Exactly 180 degrees from the right reason.

  35. 35
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    O-P-E said

    Did that guy seriously rip-off a good portion of that from V for Vendetta?

    Yes, yes he did.

  36. 36
    Marcus Ranum

    Always remember to ask the first question of revolutionaries: “How do you intend to replace the current (whatever) with a political system that will not turn into a dictatorship?”

  37. 37
    shripathikamath

    Kokesh can start a fire?

  38. 38
    Jackie

    O-P-E,
    Yep, he did.
    That made me grit my teeth too.

  39. 39
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    If Kokesh overthrew the government, the only thing that would really happen (rollseyes) is a certain segment of the same assholes running this country into the dirt (Koch brothers and their ilk) would just make a bunch of Federal property their private property after the Fed Gov was overthrown and they would have even lower taxes than they already do and put in place even more regulations in their favor, and deregulate in their favor while crowing moronically about the “free market”.

    I’m not sure if Kokesh was Infantry or not when he was in the Marines, but if somehow he and his ENTIRE band of libertarian assholes marches on DC, they’re going to quickly find themselves on the receiving end of highly accurate firepower from The Old Guard, which is an elite Infantry unit (my former unit, I was 11B). I doubt that will turn out well for them. Unless TOG is sympathetic to his cause, Washington, DC will never be conquered militarily. Every last Old Guard Infantryman is a bona fide bad motherfucker of the highest caliber. Kokesh and his ilk don’t stand a chance. They can talk about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and tri-corn hats and Liberty this or that all they want, but if they march on DC, some people who actually DO wear tri-corn hats will kick their ass back to the stoneage and not feel one ounce of regret doing so.

    I am sympathetic to the idea of the USA breaking up into smaller countries, but handing over Federal government properties and assets to the Koch brothers and replacing it with Dominionist Puritan style theocracy is not the way to go about things.

  40. 40
    Joey Maloney

    When Medea Benjamin thinks you’re too much of a publicity hound, it may be time to reevaluate your life choices.

  41. 41
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    When Medea Benjamin thinks you’re too much of a publicity hound, it may be time to reevaluate your life choices.

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY WILL NEVER TAKE OUR HELLLOOOOOOO KITTY!!!! ^.^

    I don’t think hugs will help these guys =(

  42. 42
    democommie

    “I’m not sure if Kokesh was Infantry or not when he was in the Marines,”

    Kokesh was a marine, he was at Fallujah. He was, according to Wiki, attached to the marines’ OI and it’s unclear whether he was actually shooting at/being shot at by anyone.

    All of us who have served in time of war MIGHT have been sent to fight; many of us (especially me) were not. I frequently speak about the stupidity of war but not as one who has been in the firing line. Kokesh talks the talk but I’m not sure that he walks the walk. I do know that he’s an attention whore.

  43. 43
    laurentweppe

    Unless TOG is sympathetic to his cause, Washington, DC will never be conquered militarily

    Cough

  44. 44
    comfychair

    No, look, he makes perfect sense, you just have to use the correct dictionary.

    You know, the dictionary where ‘personal responsibility’ means: it’s all somebody else’s fault. And ‘liberty’: oppressing those who oppose you; conversely, ‘tyranny’ is being prevented from oppressing those people who clearly deserve it because I mean just look at them.

    And remember, the folks who get to redefine everything whenever it suits them are the ones who hurl criticism at everyone else for their ‘moral relativism’ that is destroying society.

  45. 45
    mudpuddles

    I know there are always legitimate complaints with every government from one quarter or another, but maybe someone can enlighten me on a particular point. The Becks, Joneses, Nugents and Limbaughs in the US are always growling about how President Obama’s government has destroyed the freedoms of the US people, and is ripping up the constitution. Can anyone tell me one single freedom that has been taken away since he took office? And one single facet of the constitution he has wiped away? Because many of us Europeans are a bit bemused by the frothing-at-the-mouth right wingers in the US. And I don’t mean “he prevents me from shooting any damned animal I please with the Endangered Species Act”-type bullshit. I mean REAL, constitutionally protected freedoms or human rights. Just curious.

  46. 46
    lancifer

    Oh, and I personally don’t think the tax levels are ” reasonable for the services provided”. The tax levels are far too low for the the services provided.

    Feel free to send a check in any amount you feel is adequate to the U.S. Department of the Treasury .

  47. 47
    comfychair

    No, this is just the normal political ratfuckery used whenever the president happens to have a ‘D’ after his name. They know it doesn’t have to be real to be effective, which is all that matters. Which is explained by their dictionary’s entry for ‘democracy’: winning, at any cost, even if you take the country down with you, because liberals.

  48. 48
    Jeremy Shaffer

    mudpuddles at 45- I think the better question is which rights had Obama singularly jeopardized? To which the answer would be none.

    Every right that has been infringed upon by the Obama Administration, such as warrentless wiretapping and state secrets defense, was also violated by, if not started by, the Bush Administartion yet we heard little to nothing negative from the cast of characters you mention at that time. To be sure, Obama has been far from the best when it comes to protecting civil liberties, and in some ways he has been worse than Bush, but he is also far from being alone. The only difference in the minds of the talking heads is that letter, D or R, after the guy’s name*.

    *And maybe Obama’s skin color but I can’t say that would be an issue across the board.

  49. 49
    Pierce R. Butler

    mudpuddles @ # 45: Can anyone tell me one single freedom that has been taken away since he took office?

    The right not to be executed without trial.

    And one single facet of the constitution he has wiped away?

    The (tattered remnants of the) Fourth Amendment (which, nominally, bars “unreasonable searches and seizures” of private documents – previously interpreted to include phone calls and email, now all subject to interception and cyberscreening).

    You must be new here: our esteemed host provides details of such violations on a regular basis (do a search for “Obama, Constitution” in the search box in the upper-right corner of this page).

  50. 50
    CaitieCat, getaway driver

    Those who are thinking that breaking up the union sounds like a good idea, should take a few moments and consider a few concepts placed side-by-side:

    - red-state environmental regulation and tax regime;
    - tragedy of the commons;
    - atmospheric and hydrological permeability of borders;
    - any breakup would likely involve devolution of parts of the military, up to and definitely including nuclear weapons;
    - and lastly, “Ladies and Gentlemen, your new President of the Confederated States of the REAL America, Ted Cruz!”

    I’m just sayin’.

  51. 51
    matty1

    Most likely scenario Kokesh and about ten buddies walk into Washington with their guns within a few minutes they are detained by police for carrying loaded weapons in an area where that isn’t allowed and sent home. Kokesh then writes a long rambling blog post about how he was oppressed by agents of the commiemuslimhomonazi in chief. Even Alex Jones tells him to calm the fuck down. The End.

  52. 52
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    @matty1

    Hahahahahhaha, yes that’s about right probably lmao. Too good! :D

  53. 53
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    Those who are thinking that breaking up the union sounds like a good idea, should take a few moments and consider a few concepts placed side-by-side:

    - red-state environmental regulation and tax regime;
    - tragedy of the commons;
    - atmospheric and hydrological permeability of borders;
    - any breakup would likely involve devolution of parts of the military, up to and definitely including nuclear weapons;
    - and lastly, “Ladies and Gentlemen, your new President of the Confederated States of the REAL America, Ted Cruz!”

    I’m just sayin’.

    Meh, I was more imagining the United Socialist States of New England, the United Socialist States of the West Coast, and flyover country assembling into “free market” Dominionist/Reconstructionist theocracies. Which is bad for the flyover country, to be sure, sadly, but great for New England and the West Coast that don’t want to keep having to pay for/fund the dead weight of the nutcases living in the flyover country.

  54. 54
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    “I’m not sure if Kokesh was Infantry or not when he was in the Marines,”

    Kokesh was a marine, he was at Fallujah. He was, according to Wiki, attached to the marines’ OI and it’s unclear whether he was actually shooting at/being shot at by anyone.

    All of us who have served in time of war MIGHT have been sent to fight; many of us (especially me) were not. I frequently speak about the stupidity of war but not as one who has been in the firing line. Kokesh talks the talk but I’m not sure that he walks the walk. I do know that he’s an attention whore.

    Yeah I wasn’t sent to fight, but then The Old Guard is an elite traditional/conventional Infantry unit, so most of it’s skillset hasn’t been needed since WWII/WWI; it’s no surprise it rarely gets deployed like other Infantry units because it’s primary mission as an Infantry unit is defense of the Washington D.C. area as an elite conventional Infantry unit. Granted the risk of being invaded by China or Russia is pretty low, but TOG gets kept around because you never know…They’re elite Infantry, I think lots of people (not you though) think of Navy Seal or Special Forces, etc, when they think of Elite Infantry. Those people are Special People/Spec Ops, not Elite Infantry. And Rangers while actually being Elite Infantry are more involved in Spec Ops/Special People stuff nowadays.

    I served for 14 months and then was honorably discharged. I spent 4 of those months getting told I was nuts for being convinced I was a woman. Well, if you click on my name here and goto my blog there is a pictures link, and in that pictures link, there are pictures that show me, and I for one think I turned out quite nicely =~)

    What I learned serving in my Infantry unit is that there are some really smart dudes in the Infantry, and indeed one of the pre-reqs for serving in TOG was being smart. One of my friends in my company, he had like three stephen hawking books sitting on his windowsill…so yeh…not what people think of when they think of Infantry, lol.

    I’m glad I didn’t get deployed even though I enlisted and served immediately after 9/11. I’m glad because I don’t have anything in that department to regret: instead I served with an elite conventional infantry unit tasked with protecting the capital in that capacity, so, since we didn’t get invaded by russia/china/india or w/e, I wasn’t made to do things I later regretted morally. I’m very fortunate to even be alive to type this for many reasons, the fact I wasn’t deployed in the asymettric warfare that was afghanistan/Iraq, being one of the major reasons.

  55. 55
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    Those who are thinking that breaking up the union sounds like a good idea, should take a few moments and consider a few concepts placed side-by-side:

    - red-state environmental regulation and tax regime;
    - tragedy of the commons;
    - atmospheric and hydrological permeability of borders;
    - any breakup would likely involve devolution of parts of the military, up to and definitely including nuclear weapons;
    - and lastly, “Ladies and Gentlemen, your new President of the Confederated States of the REAL America, Ted Cruz!”

    I’m just sayin’.

    Meh, I was more imagining the United Socialist States of New England, the United Socialist States of the West Coast, and flyover country assembling into “free market” Dominionist/Reconstructionist theocracies. Which is bad for the flyover country, to be sure, sadly, but great for New England and the West Coast that don’t want to keep having to pay for/fund the dead weight of the nutcases living in the flyover country. I mean sure, the flyover country could become the Confederation of Independent Religious Nutcases if they wanted, but that would no longer be the problem of those living on the west and east coast..

  56. 56
    CaitieCat, getaway driver

    Yes. And when Jesusland/RealAmurrika mandates the use of coal and only coal for power generation because Jeebus is coming and we have to use up the earth like we were told to, will the borders to LiberalUtopistan keep the acid rain out? I’ll give you a hint: it didn’t help us up here in AmericaLite back when the Rust Belt was still pooping out sulphuric acid for fun…the winds in the Northeast come from the west.

    And that leaves aside the whole idea of letting a bunch of wild-eyed theocrats and bigots get their hands on any percentage of the world’s second-largest nuclear arsenal…

  57. 57
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    Yes. And when Jesusland/RealAmurrika mandates the use of coal and only coal for power generation because Jeebus is coming and we have to use up the earth like we were told to, will the borders to LiberalUtopistan keep the acid rain out? I’ll give you a hint: it didn’t help us up here in AmericaLite back when the Rust Belt was still pooping out sulphuric acid for fun…the winds in the Northeast come from the west.

    And that leaves aside the whole idea of letting a bunch of wild-eyed theocrats and bigots get their hands on any percentage of the world’s second-largest nuclear arsenal…

    Operations can be done to secure nuclear weapons material if necessary but it is a concern admittedly. As far as the borders keeping acid rain out that’s more problematic but not entirely without solutions. Honestly I think these are difficult issues but if it meant being able to guarantee everyone housing and basic healthcare I’m not sure I would argue so much with the idiots that want a Lone Star Nation in Texas. Also, the rest of the world would be really, really thankful and grateful that we, you know collapsed, because we tend to invade other countries and kill their people. I imagine that causes more problems for the whole of Humanity than acid reign crossing the borders…

  58. 58
    Marcus Ranum

    And that leaves aside the whole idea of letting a bunch of wild-eyed theocrats and bigots get their hands on any percentage of the world’s second-largest nuclear arsenal…

    US nuclear weapons have a permissive action link; it’s an extremely clever bit of engineering pioneered by the folks at Lawrence Livermore Labs in response to exactly that concern. The “physics package” of a typical US nuke is in a sealed container which is full of explosive lenses to compress the plutonium pit, and the electronics needed to fire the detonators with nanosecond timing. If the detonators aren’t fired exactly right, you get a can-ful of messy explosion but no fission/fusion reaction. Effectively, the PAL is a cryptographic device – the timing and safety mechanisms of the bomb (the outside) must agree with the physics package, to set the physics package off correctly.

    In a moment of sanity the US offered PAL technology to anyone who wanted it. Unfortunately, after Pakistan made their own bombs (which have a sort of kind of PAL of Pakistani origin) it was deemed the case that too much had been divulged and the offer was rescinded. Furthermore, the US’ history of dirty technology tricks (Farewell Dossier up through Stuxnet) made any third parties thinking of using US PAL technology look askance at it. Once again our silly foreign policy makes the world a much more dangerous place.

    The US nuclear arsenal is fairly OK except for some of the older stuff that’s mostly being decommissioned, and the MLRS warheads which are supposedly too small to fit a PAL. The real problem is all the plutonium at Oak Ridge, though turning it into useful weapons is a looooooot harder than using existing ones – which requires the arming codes.

  59. 59
    Marcus Ranum

    Of course we now know that arming codes aren’t everything. The go code for the “football” during the Reagan and Clinton years was “000000000000″

  60. 60
    sleepingwytch(inactive)

    Of course we now know that arming codes aren’t everything. The go code for the “football” during the Reagan and Clinton years was “000000000000″

    loooool what a bunch of buffoons! There needs to be a balance between security and convenience but not that kind of balance! xD

    You are very knowledgeable Marcus Jedi-wan ^.^

  61. 61
    laurentweppe

    Of course we now know that arming codes aren’t everything. The go code for the “football” during the Reagan and Clinton years was “000000000000″

    Reminds me the ending of the Family of Blood “You really should’nt have let me touch all those buttons

  62. 62
    atheist

    I see some issues with US secession: first, in “Red States”, most people don’t want it. Also, single US States are less politically unified than one might suspect. In any given multi-state region of the US, political divides are more likely to be between cities, suburbs and rural areas than to match state borders. Look at the red region in the county-by-county maps toward the bottom. A new nation created out of it would be hard pressed to hold an ocean border, for one thing. If the blue region wanted to secede, it would be even harder – unless the blue nation was the coastal region of California or perhaps Vermont. Which brings me to what I guess is the real point: even if a region of the US were to secede and even if both new nations were viable, this event might not solve political problems, and could create some very nasty situations involving refugees, WMD’s, and the drug trade.

    I wonder if modern American fantasies of secession owe something to our marriage traditions. The current situation is seen like a bad marriage to an impossible spouse. The natural thought is to get a divorce. But in a divorce, you at least can move away from your bad spouse, even though you might need to work out an arrangement for sharing your children. In secession, you split up politically, but still remain right next to each other.

  63. 63
    dingojack

    atheist – Yes, but according to you first link to the Dallas Morning News only 18% of voters in Texas (or pretty much any where else) would vote to succeed. If it came to a ‘divorce’ between Blue and Red states* it would be unlikely that large population shifts would occur since the number strongly committed to one or the other is low.
    The people in rural areas of America would not want to give up their land (and they’d be hard pressed to find a buyer anyway), and those in the cities would not want to lose their jobs and would be held in place by mortgages. I could see the south becoming slowly more Red as Blue-flight took the jobs in more ‘friendly’ states (taking their earning potential and skills with them) and the north-eastern and western-coastal areas becoming more Blue, but retaining a good deal of ‘multiculturalism’.
    Dingo

  64. 64
    mudpuddles

    Hi Pierce R Butler (#49)
    Thanks for the response mate.
    I was aware of those issues but I was under the impression that (1) execution without trial under the Obama administration has been based on legislation and guidelines set out under G.W. Bush (following the 2001 AUMF in response to 11th September attacks), and (2) the issue of the 4th amendment was also one that pre-dated Obama (also following from legal arguments based on the AUMF), but I agree that (as per Jeremy Shaffer, #48 – thanks Jeremy) Obama has pushed things much further. I don’t see that those are freedoms which Obama has single-handedly taken from US people.

    In any case, I would doubt whether those are freedoms which particularly concern the bloviating types I mentioned, or others on the more extreme end of the right wing. I get the impression that they’re mostly griping over freedoms which are not really under threat, such as the right to bear arms and the right to practice religion, and over freedoms that don’t actually exist, such as the right to push Christianity on everyone, the right to live in a country free from Latinos and Arabs and where women do what they’re told by white men, and the right to own as many AR15s as you can fit in your house. They seem to pay less attention to the real threats that you highlight.

  65. 65
    mudpuddles

    (I also reckon they’re worried about their freedom from The Gay, which they say Obama has totally been attacking…)

  66. 66
    atheist

    @dingojack – June 2, 2013 at 10:12 am (UTC -4)

    You have a point, that secession from the USA, were such an event to occur, could potentially be peaceful as well. US history, and the history of nations such as Pakistan or Ireland, suggests otherwise, but who knows. I guess the main point is that if both new nations were still politically heterogeneous, as you suggest would be the case, then it is unclear what would be gained by secession.

    I could see the south becoming slowly more Red as Blue-flight took the jobs in more ‘friendly’ states (taking their earning potential and skills with them) and the north-eastern and western-coastal areas becoming more Blue

    Since Americans tend to vote more conservative as their income rises, the “red nation” might actually gain more earning power than the “blue nation”, in the scenario of a peaceful breakup followed by free emigration that you envision.

  67. 67
    democommie

    For those thinking about secession.

    U.S. becoming a group of abutting but non-confederated states.

    Yugoslavia on steroids AND crack.

  68. 68
    Snoof

    I don’t know, a few 155 howitzer shell raining on their parade would seem like a good ending.

    Right up until one of them inevitably hits a primary school or hospital or power substation or something.

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