Oh, Do I Get Email

I sometimes complain that PZ gets all the crazy email and I don’t get nearly as much as I deserve. Boy, did I hit the jackpot with this one though. A guy named Matt Wykoff, a really hardcore traditionalist Catholic (see his website), sent me an email telling me that I’ve been found guilty by the church and I must shut down Freethought Blogs.

You are heretofore given notification to take down your atheist website. You are notified your website leads to scientific illiteracy. You are therefore hereby commanded the following: this communication also functions to notify you of the narrow minded and blasphemous nature of the content you host. It is decided atheist fiction and error has no rights. It has therefore been decided that both the conceptual and physical expression of atheist superstitions has no raison d’être either on your site or anywhere else for that matter. The Sovereign Jurisdiction of the Holy Roman Church has made this determination. Should you fail to abide by that which has been declared herein: expect a swifter arrival of condemnation. Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation: view www.vaticancatholic.com

So I answered him:

You are absolutely fucking hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

And he immediately replied with something even crazier:

I hereby declare- your organization to be – - an unlawful assembly. I order all those assembled to immediately disperse. I repeat- to immediately disperse. I order all your activity to immediately cease. I repeat-to immediately cease. It is not in accord with the ordinances of Canon Law. Due to your catalytic tendency of disseminating objectives adverse to Christendom – you are therefore ordered to discontinue your illegal profession. Failure to do so will result in proactive, responsive, and co-active measures. I judge, adjudge, adjudicate, deem, determine and declare your thoughts, words, actions, public or secret, and omissions, biological and spiritual property, subject to the Jurisdiction of the Unfathomable, Infinite, and Ineffable Excellence of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Further, your humanist anachronism, obscurantism, absurdum, intent, mission, and schemes, are henceforth proscribed and condemned. You may be arrested and or subject to other police action. It has so been declared: It is declared that all non-Catholic government exists in a state of in authenticity. It is thenceforth declared that all modern constitutional states lack canonical legitimacy. It has therefore been thenceforth declared that their existence is an offense to the Divine Majesty and a crime against humanity. The aforesaid Freemasonic corporations are hereby declared anachronical to true human progress. It is decided in order for modern constitutional states to gain authenticity they must recognize the Supreme Jurisdiction of the Papacy and all Papal Dogmas. As a failure to do so will only inflame the Catholic against such blasphemous tyrannical backwards regimes. Lord God is due to make Visitation to such blighted and noxious governments and tyrannies. He will Visit the iniquities upon the infidels and the Anti-Church bigots. Terror will overtake the faces of the unwashed masses. These exquisite bigots against the Papacy will know that the Lord God Himself has done it. The infidel are richly fattened for such Visitation. It is hereby determined. ‘Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo, et in terra’. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven. Libertarianism (and the constitution) are simply tyrannical failures and instruments that lead to false flag attacks and government-run pedophilia through their Manual (and Visual) Body-Cavity Searches of Juvenile Hall youth. A Catholic Monarchy simply is the answer to today’s varied and many problems. There is Absolutely No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church see www.vaticancatholic.com

Well that’s it, folks. I guess I have to close down Freethought Blogs now. It’s been fun, but gosh I wouldn’t want to upset the Mother Church or anything. This is one of those super far-right Catholics who thinks that all the popes since Vatican II are illegitimate and that there is no real pope at the moment. Oh, and that masturbation is a mortal sin. Okay, maybe — but only if you do it right.

Oh, and a third one:

No. These are very serious matters. The flame of the Divine Vengeance is all consuming and imminent. The Divine Vengeance awaits for you in the corner. In your day of Visitation there will be no running for you -but shall be consumed and thine entrails thereof and inner sanctums and parts – to exceeding magnitude beyond angled space. You shall be engulfed in catatonic soul-consuming insanity below the deep caverns of the earth at its center – forever howling and piping to incomprehensible tunes. The unspeakable flame will engulf and course through your insides and intestines with great frequency. You will be more miserable than hysterical old Jewish women. These Christ-killers will spend quality time with atheist malcontents such as yourself to torture you for all eternity. The God-insulting Jew will have his portion in the eternal lake of fire will all the atheist and the heretics. The atheist are dreamers and subscribers to superstitious fantasies. They cannot be reasoned with. Their illogic is too great.

Your existence is an abnormality. You are different from the rest of normal humanity. Atheism has never won the reasoned assent of mankind. Neither have such persons made any lasting contributions to science. If such individuals had more intelligence than the rest of normal humanity then perhaps a case for atheism could be made. But since this is not the case – such a case cannot be made.

Funny stuff.

Comments

  1. says

    I hereby declare- your organization to be – – an unlawful assembly.

    You can tell you’ve made him mad. His pauses – are positively – Shatneresque!

  2. dean says

    The flame of the Divine Vengeance is all consuming and imminent.

    I had a flame of Divine Vengeance when I was a kid. Burned a few ants with it on the back porch – until my mother chewed my out for being cruel.

    Oh, wait: that was a magnifying glass. Well, I’m sure when the aforementioned flame is wielded by this guy’s god, it is similar in effect to a magnifying glass. Do go out onto cement on sunny days Ed.

  3. says

    Oh, and that masturbation is a mortal sin.

    I notice he has references to “unclean” bolded. So maybe it’s not such a sin if you clean up afterwords?

    Also, he bolds “effeminate.” So men shouldn’t wear stockings when they wank?

  4. dean says

    I notice he has references to “unclean” bolded. So maybe it’s not such a sin if you clean up afterwords?

    I take it to mean it’s okay if you do it in the shower

  5. Phillip IV says

    a really hardcore traditionalist Catholic

    Check for the completely gratuitous antisemitism – the quality mark of an authentic hardcore traditionalist Catholic.

  6. says

    And what’s with these “Wartune” ads? “Love can expel darkness? Make love against the evils with her NOW?” Who writes this stuff?!

    And there’s another ad about prayer, with a picture of soapy hands. And another for Liberty Diploma Mill. WTF?!

  7. oranje says

    That’s fantastic stuff there. He also needs to watch his passive voice and stop making us sit on the edge of our seats, all Waiting for Godot like, for his predicates.

  8. says

    Your existence is an abnormality. You are different from the rest of normal humanity.

    He likes you and thinks you’re special! Keep playing hard-to-get and you’ll have him eating out of your hand!

  9. robnyny says

    “… but shall be consumed and thine entrails thereof and inner sanctums and parts – to exceeding magnitude beyond angled space.”

    I wonder what he thinks “inner sanctum” and “angled space” mean.

  10. raven says

    You will be more miserable than hysterical old Jewish women. These Christ-killers will spend quality time with atheist malcontents such as yourself to torture you for all eternity. The God-insulting Jew will have his portion in the eternal lake of fire will all the atheist and the heretics.

    Quite the word salad here.

    I see he is an old fashioned Catholic, that is an antisemitic one.

    It doesn’t make sense. The Jews are Christ-killers so they go to hell. Standard old Catholic doctrine.

    But they are at least gainfully employed in hell. Old Jewish women get to torture atheists. What if they don’t want to? What if these hysterical old Jewish women are atheists themselves? Hmmm, I wonder how he knows all this.

  11. says

    Due to your catalytic tendency of disseminating objectives adverse to Christendom
    So you are merely speeding up the process at which such objectives are disseminated without being consumed in the process?

  12. NitricAcid says

    “As a failure to do so will only inflame the Catholic against such blasphemous tyrannical backwards regimes.” Translation: Not doing what I tell you will only make me mad at you! I am THE Catholic!

  13. says

    These Christ-killers will spend quality time with atheist malcontents such as yourself to torture you for all eternity.

    Does the concept of “quality time” have any meaning when you have all of eternity?

    Maybe those hysterical old Jewish ladies were sent to Hell because they spent all their quality time torturing people and denying Christ? (Did any of them work for Blackwater?)

  14. meursalt says

    Care for some dressing with that word salad? The guy is practically diagnosable based on those three emails. It’s actually kind of sad and makes me wonder if anyone close to him cares enough to encourage him to get help.

    He does love the passive voice, though. I kept wanting to insert “by whom?” after all his uses of “decided.”

    I didn’t care for the vague threats, but the last email was entertaining. At least the guy reads Lovecraft; he can’t be all bad!

  15. Randomfactor says

    (whatever “angeled space” might be)

    Timecube reference.

    You’re in for it now, Ed. He’s broken out the CAPITAL LETTERS.

    NObody expects the Shifted Inquisition!!!

  16. Sharon B says

    Modus, you wicked fellow!
    You shouldn’t send pseudonymous letters to Ed like this.
    It’ll get him all riled up!

  17. DrewN says

    “I hereby declare- your organization to be – – an unlawful assembly.”

    Pausing for dramatic effect in an email. Nice touch.

    Really though, he seems to take the same cargo-cult approach to law that most fundamentalists take with science. Just use big words at random until people stop trying to argue with you, then claim victory.

  18. antonio castillo says

    What a ridiculous, self-inflated bafoon. He “orders” you to shut down Ftb? Based on the authority of ?????

    Ed, maybe it’s time to create another award (something like the Brian Fischer award), the Ftb Wingnutia, for the craziest E-Mail any of the Ftb-Bloggers get’s during the week or month.
    By the way, long time reader, first time commenter here. I really do enjoy Ftb. In a world that appears to me more and more insane, your, and the other Bloggers writings and thoughts are, from my point of view, one reason not to despair.

    A heartfelt thanks to you and your collegues

  19. kestra says

    That is some really thorough abuse of the passive-voice there. People trying to assume an authority outside of themselves (or abrogate themselves from any responsibility for their own sentiments/mistakes) *love* employing the passive voice. They always hope their interlocutor will be too stupid to inquire, “declared by whom?”

  20. maudell says

    You know how certain christians say phrases like “you’re an atheist because you think you are god!”?
    How can that not be projection?!

    Regardless, it’s hard to fathom this is not satire. Entertaining nonetheless.

  21. says

    Libertarianism (and the constitution) are simply tyrannical failures and instruments that lead to false flag attacks and government-run pedophilia through their Manual (and Visual) Body-Cavity Searches of Juvenile Hall youth. A Catholic Monarchy simply is the answer to today’s varied and many problems.

    Because we know these kind of “searches” never happen in the Catholic Church. right?

  22. antonio castillo says

    As i’m on it for the first time……Ed, almost every time I read your blog, I think: ” the people who should read this, will most certainly not read it.” I’m curious, do you get some kind of feedback when you write about Congress, the White House, Scientology, corrupt Police Departments, the Military or the kafkaesque U.S. Justice system? I don’t mean some moron like the above, but official representants of the before mentioned institutions

  23. matty1 says

    It’s like there was an accident at the printers just as they were doing a run of dictionaries.

  24. Cal says

    That was awesome! I could not help but read that in the voice of a haywire robot monk from some half-remembered sci-fi novel. The whole rant was vaguely futuristic and hearing it my head in a crazy robot voice really helps ramp up the comedy!

  25. DaveL says

    He “orders” you to shut down Ftb? Based on the authority of ?????

    By the authority of Really Big Words That he Doesn’t Really Know How to Use.

  26. DaveL says

    The unspeakable flame will engulf and course through your insides and intestines with great frequency. You will be more miserable than hysterical old Jewish women. These Christ-killers will spend quality time with atheist malcontents such as yourself to torture you for all eternity.

    Unspeakable flame coursing through your intestines?

    Hysterical old Jewish women?

    An eternity of torture?

    Sounds like someone got stuck at home when Mom’s bridge club came over to drink tequila and watch Twilight.

  27. says

    If it’s a Poe, the author is fairly well-versed in right-wing anti-Pope Catholicism, which is rather more obscure than the usual targets. Ask him about Fatima.

  28. antonio castillo says

    @Davel #34

    May I award you with my personal “thank you for the laugh” award :) ?

  29. otranreg says

    You shall be engulfed in catatonic soul-consuming insanity below the deep caverns of the earth at its center – forever howling and piping to incomprehensible tunes.

    So, there’s avantgarde jazz in hell? Where the fuck do I sign up?

  30. says

    The Atheist Experience got the send to last large bit a few days ago. Apparently this person is just going around emailing any person he/she finds with this.

  31. says

    I vote non-poe. That site has too much effort in it and we would have heard about it by now if it was like Landoverbaptist. Why is it so refreshing to see crazy Catholics? I need to be better than this…

  32. busterggi says

    ” Hahk! I hear the Canon’s raw! Is it the King approaching? ”

    As for ‘angled space’ please see HPL.

  33. dean says

    i think i will check out “death and the journey into hell” first. it is only an hour long!

    could be worse – the “journey into hell” could have been a 3 hour tour

  34. antonio castillo says

    @robb

    I hope you have something really good to smoke ! You should maybe consider to turn off the sound and put on some really good music and just watch them. Could be funny.

  35. Musca Domestica says

    antonio castillo

    What a ridiculous, self-inflated bafoon. He “orders” you to shut down Ftb? Based on the authority of ?????

    The Exorcist?

  36. hexidecima says

    so hmmm, his god is a hound of tindalos?

    and oh my, DaveL, you have so hit it on the head.

  37. Sastra says

    You shall be engulfed in catatonic soul-consuming insanity below the deep caverns of the earth at its center – forever howling and piping to incomprehensible tunes.

    This prophesy may have already come true — if you consider this email and interpret it in Lovecraftian idiom.

  38. laurentweppe says

    No. These are very serious matters. The flame of the Divine Vengeance is all consuming and imminent.

    You know, if one day I want to threaten someone with the Flamme of Divine Vengeance, I will first bound that person to a chair and start playing with gasoline and a zippo: At least I will look decently threatening.
    (Yes, that’s me being sarcastic)

  39. says

    From the Wikipedia entry for Most Holy Family Monastery:

    Most Holy Family Monastery is a sedevacantist organization run by Michael Dimond. Due to its publication of a pamphlet entitled “101 Heresies of Anti-Pope John Paul II” it was declared “a dissident organization that challenges the papal authority” by The Catholic League in January, 1999.[1] The group has also been condemned by the Catholic diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska,[2] and was designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

    Lincoln diocese is among the most reactionary conservative Catholic dioceses in the US. To not be liberal and to be condemned by Lincoln requires feats of Herculean insanity.

  40. caseloweraz says

    “The flame of the Divine Vengeance is all consuming and imminent. The Divine Vengeance awaits for you in the corner.”

    In the corner? Sounds like pro wrestling. In this corner: Divine Vengeance, wearing white trunks. In the opposite corner, clad in black trunks, is …

    It also brought to mind that moment when one of the Priest-Kings of Gor pointed at Tarl Cabot and intoned, “Die the flame death!” The next moment the Priest-king went up in smoke.

  41. ildi says

    Here we go:

    the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a demonic flute held in nameless paws

  42. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    Perhaps he will ask Francis to have you tossed out of a helicopter if you do not comply with the order to shut down FtB.

    (Why do I hear Slymies cheering in the background?)

  43. says

    The currently accepted approach to passive voice is to append ‘by zombies.’ at the end of the sentence. In this case, however, ‘by shoggoths.’ might work better.

  44. says

    Goodbye Enemy Janine,

    You seemed to suggest (maybe I misunderstood–if so mea culpa) that the author would enlist Francis (whom I took to mean the new pope) to toss Ed off a helicopter. But given that situation–Ed and the pope in a helicopter, he would no doubt opt for Ed tossing Francis. As much as he seems to dislike Ed, he really dislikes post Vatican II “antipopes.”

  45. Moggie says

    It’s strange that it’s taken until now for me to realise that there must be people who read Lovecraft as non-fiction. I’m imagining someone with a well-thumbed copy of the complete works, on their shelf next to Understanding the Book of Revelation, the margin full of crabbed notes like “Shub-Niggurath = Beast of the Earth???” and “Wormwood obv. home of Azathoth!!!!” This makes me sad.

  46. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    your humanist anachronism … [is] henceforth proscribed and condemned. You may be arrested and or subject to other police action. It has so been declared

    Ed, have you been using the rotary phones at CFI again? You’ve been warned how annoying that Chunk-Clickety racket is to the angels dancing on the pin dropped next to the receiver!!

  47. fastlane says

    I hereby declare Matt Wykoff a complete nut, a looney, off his rocker, and twelve other euphemisms for nucking futs. However, he is very amusing, so keep the cards and letters coming!

  48. ildi says

    GEJ:

    Perhaps he will ask Francis to have you tossed out of a helicopter

    heddle:

    You’re missing the boat.

    I thought you guys were riffing off the theme of Argentinian dissidents being thrown out of planes over water and missing the boat. My bad.

  49. antonio castillo says

    @heddle

    Afaik, it is dogma that the holy ghost is supposed to be present during the conclave so that, following the dogma, the elected pope has some kind of divine authority and therefore the elected pope is the one and only. The hole antipope stuff is just as hilarious (well, considering the sheer number of victims that this bullshit has caused, hilarious is not the right word, but you know what I mean) as the whole institution called the RCC.
    Until humankind don’t get rid of religions and put it in the sinkhole together with all the other murderous ideologies, it will not reach it’s full potential.
    Daydreamer that I am, sometimes I try to visualize where we could be as a species, if religions and tyrannical sociopaths would not have hold us back for so many millenia.

  50. phhht says

    Surprise! Wykoff hates Teh Gay!


    The Divine Vengeance is around about awaiting thee, and in your Visitation; there shall be no running away, but shall be consumed and thine entrails thereof and inner sanctums and parts to exceeding magnitude – beyond angled space. EJ is recieving a fire into his bowels as we speak right now; and it shall be forever. This is an infinite fire exceeding the comprehension of the minds of men.

    He infinitely thirsts, suffocates, hungers and the contents of his inner parts are spewing forth with great regularity, for he is consumed in soul consuming insanity, forever howing and dancing to incomprehensible tunes. He is situated below in the deep caverns of the earth, at its center, burning for his sins. He promoted his extreme views and now is richly paying for it.

    Sodomites are possessed by the Demon of Lust through the punishment of God, for having committed filthy sin. The Demon of lust drove this wretch to suicide, thats what demons do; there ultimate objective is to kill its host victim. Stop working for this filthy disgusting sodomite organization. You are going to Hell. to escape, heed my message.

    See

    here

  51. slc1 says

    Is this asshole a follower of Hutton Gibson, Mel Gibson’s father? He sounds a lot like him.

  52. cag says

    It is not in accord with the ordinances of Canon Law.

    However it is in accord with the ordinances of Olympus Law, or is that Nikon Law?

  53. says

    This is one of Pope Michael’s people? I met Pope Michael a few years ago when he came to speak to my American cults class. They aren’t associated with Hutter Gibson directly, though he was part of the conversationt hat led to a few friends deciding to elect Michal the pope. It’s an interestign story as he hopes to find an old cardinal somewhere who’s never done post-Vatican-II rites to make him a cardinal as a priest is rather limited in his ability to perform papal duties. He thought they coudl maybe find one in Russia. At that point, they’d get the line of succession going again and he could make lots of cardinals.

  54. says

    steve oberski

    So heddle has finally converted to catholicism.

    I am trying to fathom why would you write this. Is it a joke? If so, I don’t get it. *shrug*.

  55. says

    “Christ-killers” eh? Ok, but:

    In order for us be redeemed, Christ had to die, right?* So, someone had to freaking kill him – right? So, why aren’t those who killed Christ revered as the nigh-redeemers who, despite their ignorance and loathing, actually set in motion the salvation of humanity? Jesus Christ, we should be thanking the Christ-killers for Chrissakes.

    I suppose Jesus could always have killed himself – but that’s apparently very sinful. It also makes far less sense than having someone else do it – I don’t think suicide qualifies you as a martyr.

    _________________
    *Yes, let’s leave aside for the moment the obvious solution of an omnipotent God simply redeeming us through an act of will – should be small potatoes for a chap who literally spoke the entire universe into existence in less than a week.

  56. Michael Heath says

    From this site:

    This DVD proves that God miraculously created all things. It also describes the eternal punishment that awaits all who refuse to love and obey God.

    I don’t think he quite understands the definition of ‘prove’ and ‘love’. What a pathetic human being.

  57. meursalt says

    @Moggie, #68

    It’s strange that it’s taken until now for me to realise that there must be people who read Lovecraft as non-fiction. I’m imagining someone with a well-thumbed copy of the complete works, on their shelf next to Understanding the Book of Revelation, the margin full of crabbed notes like “Shub-Niggurath = Beast of the Earth???” and “Wormwood obv. home of Azathoth!!!!” This makes me sad.

    Mock all you like, asshole. When They finally return, one of us is going to be shoggoth chow. The doubters won’t be nearly as lucky.

    Also, this guy seems more inspired by the Lovecraftian version of Christian Hell in “The Horror at Red Hook” than any of the more mainline canonical mythos stories, although the reference to Azathoth’s pipers is undeniable.

  58. says

    I was thinking if he got him some Jew-hatin’ in there he would have hit it out of the park, and for most of his screed I thought I would be disappointed.
    But he rallied there at the end to produce a full-on master symphony of crazy the likes I haven’t experienced since Michele Bachmann dropped out of the Republican primaries.
    Bravo, good sir. Bravo.

  59. says

    87 comments, no fucking Hitler! I am disappointed. {;>)

    “He asserts UFOs can’t be aliens from another planet, therefore they must be demons. Now I feel like a bully so I’ll stop.”

    Michael Heath, just when I’m beginning to hope that you’ve turned the corner and are ready to embrace the Dark Side you go and make a comment like that.

    Look, it’s okay if you don’t want to bully widows, orphans, the disabled and such but, fucking hell, man, it’s almost mandatory to pile on asshatdouchenozzledumbfucks!

  60. shouldbeworking says

    I’m spending eternity with old Jewish women? Hot damn, I haven’t met one yet that isn’t a great cook, starting with my g’grandma. And g’grandpa was a moonshiner during the depression, according to unofficial family history.

  61. raven says

    Michael Dimond on UFOs:

    He asserts UFOs can’t be aliens from another planet, therefore they must be demons. Now I feel like a bully so I’ll stop.

    This is a common fundie xian belief.

    Nornman Geisler, cofounder of a SBC seminary, once stated that flying saucers are real and piloted by demons from hell. Hugh Ross a former astronomer and Hovind claim the same thing.

    If you are going to believe silly things, might as well believe them all.

    www. mnsci. org/popup.php?id=69

    One of the expert witnesses for “creation-science” was Dr. Norman Geisler, a theologian … At trial, Geisler testified under oath that flying saucers were “Satanic …

  62. jaytheostrich says

    “The Divine Vengeance awaits for you in the corner.”
    Better move to a round room STAT!
    ” In your day of Visitation there will be no running for you -but shall be consumed and thine entrails thereof and inner sanctums and parts – to exceeding magnitude beyond angled space. You shall be engulfed in catatonic soul-consuming insanity below the deep caverns of the earth at its center – forever howling and piping to incomprehensible tunes. The unspeakable flame will engulf and course through your insides and intestines with great frequency.

    Wow, now he’s channeling Lovecraft too.

  63. rabokarabekian says

    I think you’ve run in to the Catholic Keymaster.

    JESUS CHRIST THE TRAVELER! He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!

  64. coffeehound says

    Libertarianism (and the constitution) are simply tyrannical failures and instruments that lead to false flag attacks and government-run pedophilia through their Manual (and Visual) Body-Cavity Searches of Juvenile Hall youth.

    QUICK! Everyone run to the vatican for protection from institutiionalized pedophilia!

  65. otrame says

    Guy sounds like he may have some serious mental health issues and I have to confess I don’t find that particularly funny.

    To me there is a big difference between the rantings of Ed’s usual wingnut quotes and what this guy is spewing. I don’t like internet diagnosis, but I honestly think this guy needs to get back on his medication.

  66. ohioobserver says

    Oh, Ed, Ed, Ed. LOVE your email. You should do this once a month — have an “Ed’s favorites”, selected from the most wonderful, wacky emails you’ve received. Your loons are more entertaining than FSTDT!

    Seriously, as loony as this guy is, some of the stuff in there could be interpreted as threats. Although I believe from what I’ve seen he wouldn’t know which end of the gun is which.

  67. tuxedocartman says

    otrame @ #95 said exactly what I was thinking. This isn’t typical religious or conservative asshattery; this man needs help.

  68. bobcarroll says

    “below the earth, at its center…” Hey fellow, the bible insists that the world is flat. Get thee to a nunnery!
    Hey, he isn’t all bad: he knows the difference between it’s and its.

  69. steve oberski says

    @heddle

    You’re right, in retrospect Wykoff is far more coherent and his theology is less vile.

    My apologies to any hardcore catholics for making this invidious comparison.

  70. Ulysses says

    Hey fellow, the bible insists that the world is flat.

    No it doesn’t.

    Except where it does. Four corners implies the Earth is flat.

    Nobody blames bronze age goatherds for thinking the Earth is flat. It looked flat to them and they were more interested in things like what one should or should not eat and what sorts of threads clothes should be woven from. It’s only the Biblical literalists and their sycophants (like other Christians) who need to be derided for believing the Bible is anything other than make believe stories about a sadistic bully and his followers.

  71. says

    I’ll echo otrame and tuxedocartman: I think this man is seriously ill. I’m no expert, but it reminds me very strongly of written rants I’ve seen from schizophrenics. Now, most schizophrenics are no danger to anybody, and most of the rest are only a danger to themselves, but this is chock full of threats. I really think he needs to see a professional, urgently.

  72. lordshipmayhem says

    Is “anachronical” even a word?

    I’m having a fractured Sailor Moon moment. I’m imagining this idiot, standing in a Japanese schoolgirl’s sailor fuku, holding a henshin stick over his head, and bellowing, “In the name of the Loon, I will punish you!”

  73. abb3w says

    Loons like this are one of the reasons for the traditional fear among Protestant Americans of papists.

  74. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Hey fellow, the bible insists that the world is flat.

    No it doesn’t.

    Except where it does. Four corners implies the Earth is flat.

    It could be tetrahedral.

  75. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    let’s leave aside for the moment the obvious solution of an omnipotent God simply redeeming us through an act of will – should be small potatoes for a chap who literally spoke the entire universe into existence in less than a week. – Hankstar AKA Mandrellian

    Yeah, but you’ve got to remember his powers have declined since then – nowadays the most he can manage is appearing on toast, or dogs’ bums.

  76. says

    #101,

    Except where it does. Four corners implies the Earth is flat.

    Right. Because if I go to a scientific conference and before I launch into my talk I say: “It is a delight to be here with scientists from the four corners of the earth” I am making a claim that the earth is flat.

    Oh wait, I forgot, everyone is allowed figures of speech except biblical writers. Even when they are waxing poetic, every statement must be interpreted as if it were a categorical statement of scientific fact. Because if not, then how can we possibly tell what statements are literal!! Cafeteria Christian!!

    The bible is meant to be read intelligently.

    steve oberski,

    You continue to be a troll extraordinaire. You’re comment that I converted to Catholicism, was apropos neither the OP nor any subsequent comment. Then your oh-so-clever #100. Loser.

  77. dingojack says

    Heddle – Whether biblical writers concluded the Earth was flat (which would not be an unfair assumption given the knowledge base they had available to them) or not is exactly not the point. Whether idiotic biblical literalists claim that every thing the bible says is literally true is the point.*.
    Care to comment on that point?
    Dingo
    ——-
    * perhaps you missed Ulysses (@101): “It’s only the Biblical literalists and their sycophants (like other Christians) who need to be derided for believing the Bible is anything other than make believe stories about a sadistic bully and his followers”.

  78. dingojack says

    Nick – only two dimensional figures have ‘corners’, Volumes with three (or more) dimensions have ‘vertices’.[/pedant]
    Dingo

  79. says

    DJ,

    Whether idiotic biblical literalists claim that every thing the bible says is literally true is the point.*.

    Agreed!! That is exactly what I was arguing against. The idiotic biblical literalism of #98 and #101 where it was stated ” the bible insists that the world is flat” and “Four corners implies the Earth is flat.” There are no idiotic biblical literalists quite as idiotically literalist as simple-minded biblical critics.

    Now, I assume some of them (biblical writers) did believe the earth was flat and most believed in geocentricism. That is irrelevant. No church that I know of affirms infallibility of biblical writers. Some (such as mine) affirm the inspiration of scripture and inerrancy of the original autographs. They might have believed the earth was flat (who cares?), but under inspiration did they write anything intended as a scientific fact to that effect.? The answer is no, or at least arguably no, if you allow them the same suite of figures of speech and allowances for genre as any other writers.

  80. dingojack says

    Heddle which was precisely my point: the set of christians and the set of biblical literalists intersect only partially, but have sizable areas that are distinctly separate.
    However I am confused (surprised?): “inerrancy of the original autographs” so since the Earth doesn’t have four corners (or any corners at all really) then is this not an error of fact? So if this isn’t original, who wrote it and when?
    ;) Dingo

  81. says

    DJ,

    so since the Earth doesn’t have four corners (or any corners at all really) then is this not an error of fact?

    No it is not an error (necessarily). Do you call people out for their “error” when they use that expression?

    Neither is “I am am the vine” an error even though Jesus doesn’t sprout grapes. Neither is “the sun rose” an error even though it should be “the earth rotated.”

    It (earth’s corners) is an error only if it is presented as a scientific fact.

  82. dingojack says

    It’s only a cliche because it is an oft repeated ‘biblicalism’ (if you know what I mean). In the original there no hint that it is being used idiomatically, is there?
    It’s an interpretation on your part. And if you can interpret that then anything is open to interpretation. Why shouldn’t we consider the whole thing to be open to whatever meaning (or nonsense) we would like?
    This is one of the literalists biggest fears (IMHO), that their certainty would become chaos.
    Dingo

  83. says

    DJ,

    In the original there no hint that it is being used idiomatically, is there?

    What do you think, honestly:

    He will raise a signal for the nations
    and will assemble the banished of Israel,
    and gather the dispersed of Judah
    from the four corners of the earth. (Isa. 11:12)

    Does it really require a big, open-the-floodgates risk to interpret this non-literally? To argue that the writer did not intend to say that, literally and scientifically, there are four corners of the earth, and you will find some of the dispersed Jews standing on those corners?

    The bible is meant to be read intelligently.

  84. steve oberski says

    @heddle

    The bible is meant to be read intelligently.

    Isn’t that what atheists already do ?

    You confuse reading the bible intelligently with the post hoc rationalizations of an intelligent person trying to justify belief in a book of fairy tales.

  85. Michael Heath says

    Except where it does. Four corners implies the Earth is flat.

    heddle responds:

    Right. Because if I go to a scientific conference and before I launch into my talk I say: “It is a delight to be here with scientists from the four corners of the earth” I am making a claim that the earth is flat.

    Oh wait, I forgot, everyone is allowed figures of speech except biblical writers. Even when they are waxing poetic, every statement must be interpreted as if it were a categorical statement of scientific fact. Because if not, then how can we possibly tell what statements are literal!! Cafeteria Christian!!

    I think this avoids the point. Certainly we should be generous about figures of speech used in the Bible; when it comes to what people of that time correctly understood to be true. But in the period this was written it wasn’t commonly known that the earth was a sphere. In addition we’re not referring here to mere biblical writers, but instead some Christians’ belief, including you, that the Bible is in the inerrant word of God.

    Given the corners of the earth and the claim the sun stopped it’s orbit around the earth to provide additional time for God’s favorites to win a battle, it’s a dodge to claim “figure of speech’. Instead we have:
    1) Biblical writers who as ignorant about reality as their contemporaneous cohorts, no God involved; or,
    2) a god inspiring them who knew jack-shit about reality; or,
    3) a god inspiring them who was a such a lousy communicator he contributed to people remaining convinced the earth was flat and the sun orbited the earth for millennium beyond what the math and observation informed us was true. And the commitment to persecute people to defend their faith in that belief as absolute truth because the Bible told them so.

    I’m going with #1.

  86. Michael Heath says

    Me earlier:

    Given the corners of the earth and the claim the sun stopped it’s orbit around the earth to provide additional time for God’s favorites to win a battle, it’s a dodge to claim “figure of speech’. Instead we have:
    1) Biblical writers who as ignorant about reality as their contemporaneous cohorts, no God involved; or,
    2) a god inspiring them who knew jack-shit about reality; or,
    3) a god inspiring them who was a such a lousy communicator he contributed to people remaining convinced the earth was flat and the sun orbited the earth for millennium beyond what the math and observation informed us was true. And the commitment to persecute people to defend their faith in that belief as absolute truth because the Bible told them so.

    I’m going with #1.

    I thought of a fourth possibility:
    4) God’s a vicious prick who purposefully miscommunicated to his human writers in order to create additional human suffering as his faithful devotees defend the word of God against people who increasingly realized the the sun orbited a spherical earth.

    I’ll continue to stick with #1. Perhaps there are other possibilites.

  87. jonathangray says

    see his website

    I don’t think it’s his website. “Most Holy Family Monastery” = the Dimond Brothers, a couple of crazies who give sedevacantists a bad name.

    He’s right about the divine vengeance, fire, etc though. : )

    Oh, and yes, UFOs are almost certainly demonic.

    And I remember reading somewhere that the “four corners of the earth” referred to N, S, E and W.

  88. leonardschneider says

    Hey, I’m an Episcopal, so send him my way: I’m sure we could have a laff-riot of a conversation. Mostly though, I want to ask him what his mother was smoking during the pregnancy, and if she’ll share.

  89. says

    lordshipmayhem

    I’m having a fractured Sailor Moon moment. I’m imagining this idiot, standing in a Japanese schoolgirl’s sailor fuku, holding a henshin stick over his head, and bellowing, “In the name of the Loon, I will punish you!”

    *falls over laughing*

  90. jonathangray says

    leonardschneider:

    Hey, I’m an Episcopal, so send him my way: I’m sure we could have a laff-riot of a conversation. Mostly though, I want to ask him what his mother was smoking during the pregnancy, and if she’ll share.

    Share? So inhaling intoxicants is OK with Episcopalians now? You learn something new every day.

  91. says

    “the Dimond Brothers, a couple of crazies who give sedevacantists a bad name.”

    As if the whackjobs needed any help in that area.

  92. bobcarroll says

    There are more references to the idea, common back then, that the earth was flat. The tempter took Jesus to a high mountain, where he showed him all the kingdoms of the earth. Try that on a spherical planet! Also, by that time, Eratosthenes’ demonstration of a spherical earth was known. (since about 200 BC) And Judea was thoroughly Hellenized in those days. The point is not that the common belief in those days was that the earth was flat, as has been discussed above, but that current biblical inerrantists have little scope for ignoring this as being the common idea at that time. Of course, Catholics aren’t inerrantists, as a rule, but this loon?

  93. says

    heddle

    I’m with Michael Heath. I’m willing to allow Biblical “authors” the same suite of figures of speech and allowances for genre as any other writers. But the notion that “no church that I know of affirms infallibility of biblical writers” simply ignores Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, Henry Morris, Duane Gish and many others. While they may not constitute “churches” in and of themselves, they have been wildly successful (compared with the value of their views) with many “churched” people. Al Mohler of the SBC has declared himself a YEC based on his “literal” reading of the Bible.

    But let me ask you about this: Leviticus declares bats to be “fowl” (I forget Chapter and Verse, but could find it if need be). Is that “intended as a scientific fact”? If not, why not? Perhaps more importantly, how can anyone tell when the Bible authors were speaking about scientific fact and not? Do we disregard everything the Bible says that science also addresses? Then the question becomes what constitutes “inerrancy of the original autographs”?

  94. equisetum says

    His pauses – are positively – Shatneresque!

    Ed, you should ask Shatner to read these. I just hope he’s not Catholic.

  95. dingojack says

    “And that inverted Bowl they call the Sky,
    Whereunder crawling coop’d we live and die,
    Lift not your hands to It for help–for It
    As impotently moves as you or I.”

    So is Fitzgerald translating* Omar Khayyam literally or figuratively here? Surely nobody in all of history could literally believe the sky was a bowl pierced through with star-holes, could they? It just gotta be ‘figure of speech’, right?

    Dingo
    ——–
    * I’m using the term loosely here (more figuratively than literally)

  96. dingojack says

    What does the FoAW say about when Isiah was written?

    “Scholars therefore divide the book into three parts:[13]

    > Chapters 1 to 39 (First Isaiah, Proto-Isaiah or Original Isaiah): the work of the original prophet Isaiah, who worked in Jerusalem between 740 and 687 BCE.[14]
    > Chapters 40 to 55 (Second Isaiah or Deutero-Isaiah): by an anonymous author who lived in Babylon near the end of the Babylonian captivity.[13]:418
    > Chapters 56 to 66 (Third Isaiah or Trito-Isaiah): the work of anonymous disciples committed to continuing Isaiah’s work in the years immediately after the return from Babylon.[13]:444 This section includes visions of new heavens and new earth.[14] (Other scholars suggest that chapters 55–66 were written by Deutero-Isaiah after the fall of Babylon.)[4]:p. 561″

    So pre ca. 200bce then. Perhaps a literal interpretation is not unwarranted.

    Dingo
    ——–
    Notes.
    [4] Kugel, James L. (2008). “chapter 30: The Book of Isaiah(s)”. How To Read the Bible: A Guide to Scripture, Then and Now. New York, NY: Free Press. pp. 538–568. ISBN 978-0-7432-3587-7.
    [13] Boadt, Lawrence (1984). Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction. ISBN 978-0-8091-2631-6.
    [14] ‘Introduction to the Book of Isaiah”. United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/isaiah/intro.htm. Retrieved 2007-04-29.

  97. says

    The third one makes me think it might be a prank. He switched from Crazy Catholic to Azathoth Cultist, what wit
    h the talk of “beyond angled space” and “howling and piping”. I mean, it is possible that you have a crazy Catholic reader who loves him so Call of Cthulu. But…I can’t help but think a Poe (with a touch of Lovecraft) is more likely.

  98. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    The bible is meant to be read intelligently. – heddle

    Then why is it written so stupidly?

  99. says

    You know, on second thought, I don’t think anyone would write that anti-Semitic stuff for a joke.

    But I am puzzled as to why this person’s threats do seem to come out of Lovecraft.

  100. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    No church that I know of affirms infallibility of biblical writers. Some (such as mine) affirm the inspiration of scripture and inerrancy of the original autographs. They might have believed the earth was flat (who cares?), but under inspiration did they write anything intended as a scientific fact to that effect.? The answer is no, or at least arguably no, if you allow them the same suite of figures of speech and allowances for genre as any other writers. – heddle

    So, when the Bible says that all people are descended from a single couple, is that “inerrant”? When it says Methusaleh lived 969 years, is that “inerrant”? When it asserts that a flood covered the entire earth, and Noah built a boat large enough to hold at least one pair of every kind of land-living animal, and somehow collected them from every part of the earth’s surface, is that “inerrant”. When it describes the Exodus, for which not a particle of evidence exists, is that “inerrant”? When it says the sun stood still, and that the walls of a besieged city fell down in response to the blowing of trumpets, is that “inerrant”? Are both the genealogies of Joseph “inerrant” when they differ in the number of generations between him and David? Are both the birth narratives of Jesus “inerrant”, when one says his parents fled to Egypt, and one says they returned to Galilee? Are all the accounts of the resurrection “inerrant”, when they differ as to who was the first to see the resurrected Jesus?

  101. slc1 says

    Re Nick Gotts @ #134

    When it says the sun stood still

    Several years ago on Mr. Brayton previous blog at Scienceblogs, Prof. Heddle, in response to a query from me opined that possibly a scientific explanation could be found that would stop the sun in the sky for a day, without the catastrophic events that would have occurred. Rots of ruck. Prof. Heddle has also argued in response to a query from me that the asteroid collision that put paid to the dinosaurs was deliberately sent by god for that very purpose, in order to open up niches that eventually resulted in the appearance of Homo sapiens.

  102. Ichthyic says

    I believe the correct response to Mr Wykoff is:

    Fuck off.

    I would rather think: “Seek medical assistance.”

    I agree with Otrame at 95. This screams of someone needing some medical intervention.

  103. Ichthyic says

    Heddle has also argued in response to a query from me that the asteroid collision that put paid to the dinosaurs was deliberately sent by god for that very purpose, in order to open up niches that eventually resulted in the appearance of Homo sapiens.

    I suppose the even bigger extinction event at the end of the Permian was the same thing?

    strange, I thought God liked insects.

    and what about all the marine animals? 96% of those were completely wiped out too.

    If Heddle really thinks that the dinos were wiped out for humans, then he’s much further gone that even I had considered.

    say it ain’t so Heddle!

  104. Ichthyic says

    No church that I know of affirms infallibility of biblical writers

    there goes our Heddle again, employing the argument from ignorance in textbook fashion.

  105. Ichthyic says

    from the four corners of the earth

    If we are to post hoc analyze this as being a turn of expression, then to support that hypothesis, we would need to go further back in our literary history to find previous uses of the expression in context, and even seek the source of it.

    that’s what an intelligent reader would do.

    Five bucks says this is NOT what Heddle has done.

  106. thebookofdave says

    Is he exorcising FtB? Better hold on to your seamy pale underbelly, Ed, cause it’s going for a ride!

  107. Tualha says

    I think not a Poe. If it is a Poe, he’s going to great lengths to hide it.

    Poor nutcase.

  108. dingojack says

    Ichthyic (#137) – “strange, I thought God liked insects.”

    Only those with four legs.

    Dingo

  109. baal says

    “Neither have such persons (atheists) made any lasting contributions to science.” Um, actually, the vast majority of at least modern scientists are in fact atheists. Deism was rife in enlightenment thinkers.

    I also agree that someone ought to go have social services knock on his door. You can’t really do that for adults in the U.S. w/o a court proceeding and those aren’t the easiest cases to bring. He does seem to be completely out of touch to the point where you wonder if he can take care of himself (pardon my amateur internet psych skills).

  110. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    I suggest we use “Wyking Off” for inane threatening religious rants and bluster henceforth.

  111. says

    heddle, at №109:

    The bible is meant to be read intelligently.

    Says who? I don’t recall seeing that in the foreword, or as a note on the back of the book.

    Professor Heddle pontificates: “The Bible Is Meant To…

    Yeah, whatever.

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