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Wingnut on Wingnut Crime: Ham vs Jeffress

Ken Ham loves to criticize his fellow fundamentalists whenever they deviate from his young earth creationist beliefs, accusing them of undermining belief in the Bible unless they interpret it exactly as he did. His latest target is Robert Jeffress, who thinks Adam and Eve were real people but accepts that the age of the universe “could have been” older than a few thousand years.

A noted biblical apologist and expert on creationism is calling out several of his colleagues. An audience of some 300 people at the recent National Religious Broadcasters (NRB) convention in Nashville were shocked to learn of the number of evangelical leaders who don’t believe in a literal 6 days of creation narrative…

“Many Christian leaders today will say ‘who cares what Genesis says and what does it matter about the age of the earth as long as you trust in Jesus. We need to go out there and preach the Gospel,’” said Ham. “But the point we need to understand is the Gospel comes from this book called the Bible and if generations of people have been led to believe they can’t really trust the Bible or lead to doubt that you can trust its authority or doubt its history – eventually they will reject the Bible and won’t listen to the Gospel.”

During a recent interview on the Bill O’Reilly show, Dr. Robert Jeffress, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, acknowledged his belief that the earth could have been created 13.7 billion years ago.

“I think it very well could have been,” Jeffress told O’Reilly. “One of the things fundamentalist Christians mess up on is they try to say the earth is 6,000 years old. The Bible never makes that claim.”

The AFA’s news site is apparently not able to distinguish between the age of the universe and the age of the earth. And Ham can’t distinguish between reality and his delusions.

Comments

  1. MikeMa says

    Ol Hambone has a point though. If you begin to doubt the literal truth of the babble with respect to one feature, the whole house of cards is likely to crumble. Good.

  2. Michael Heath says

    Robert Jeffress writes:

    “One of the things fundamentalist Christians mess up on is they try to say the earth is 6,000 years old. The Bible never makes that claim.”

    So once again God’s a piss-poor communicator.

    ChristianPress.com [Ed's source]:

    A noted biblical apologist and expert on creationism . . . [emphasis Heath's]

    I’d rather be known as the foremost expert on how make world-class spitty slurpies.

    When I was a kid being a game show host seemed to be the lowest possible life form. Now I’d argue it’s a huckster promoting creationism, AGW denialism; or the Pope.

  3. raven says

    Ken Ham loves to criticize his fellow fundamentalists whenever they deviate from his young earth creationist beliefs, ….

    It’s just the usual fundie xian concern. Money!!!

    Fundies are credulous fools, easily separated from their money.

    Of course, there is intense competition among their vaguely humanoid toad leaders to get that money.

    The stakes are high here. Pat Robertson is a billionaire. The Crouches of TBN have many mansions, private jets, a $100,000 doghouse (rather shocking, where are the dog’s mansions?), and others rake in tens or hundreds of millions, e.g. Glenn Beck with ca. $100 million. A successful xian conperson can make more in one year than most Americans will make in a lifetime.

    Ken Ham and his family who are also employees make a lot of money from AIG etc.. And it is easy work.

    Still, AIG isn’t doing that well. Attendance at the monument to modern plastics that is the Creation pseudomuseum is down, and AIG itself is running at a loss.

  4. Synfandel says

    …if generations of people have been led to believe they can’t really trust the Bible or lead to doubt that you can trust its authority or doubt its history – eventually they will reject the Bible and won’t listen to the Gospel.

    Wouldn’t that be nice?

  5. greg1466 says

    “But the point we need to understand is the Gospel comes from this book called the Bible and if generations of people have been led to believe they can’t really trust the Bible or lead to doubt that you can trust its authority or doubt its history – eventually they will reject the Bible and won’t listen to the Gospel.”

    And there is the entire argument in a nutshell. If your world view is based entirely on an argument from authority, what happens to your world view when you acknowledge that that authority can be wrong? Ironically, it is the wingnuttiest of the wingnuts who have the most internally consistent world view.

  6. eric says

    Dr. Robert Jeffress, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, acknowledged his belief that the earth could have been created 13.7 billion years ago.

    “I think it very well could have been

    No, it could not have been. Science is pretty clear on that. The universe is probably about that old. The Earth is more like 4.5 billion years old.

    Still, with mistakes like this, you never know where the actual ignorance lies. Jeffress could’ve meant the universe. Or he could’ve simply mixed up the dates but his basic point is the same (i.e., he’s saying he’s willing to accept science on this one, even if he doesn’t know what science says on it). Or even the reporter could’ve got it wrong – they often mix up this stuff.
    So I think its a minor quibble, but I still didn’t want to let it pass.

  7. raven says

    Kicked Out of Two Homeschool Conferences – Answers in Genesis
    www. answersingenesis. org/…/kicked-out-homeschool-conferences

    Mar 22, 2011 – As a result of Mr. Ham’s alleged sin, GHC banned Mr. Ham and the AiG … In an email to Ken Ham, the leader of this homeschool group wrote to …

    Xians historically don’t play well with each other or other religions. In the last 2,000 years they have killed tens of millions in various wars over various matters of belief. Being an apostate or heretic was a potentially and, often actually, a death penalty offense.

    Ken Ham proudly continues that tradition by fighting with other fundies over the mindless sheep dollars.

    He’s been kicked out of two home school conferences for objecting to their doctrinal heresy. It’s a good thing we live in the 21st century. Ken Ham is simply not allowed to burn heretics at the stake any more. In times past, probably, he would be lighting the stacks of firewood himself.

  8. raven says

    …if generations of people have been led to believe they can’t really trust the Bible or lead to doubt that you can trust its authority or doubt its history – eventually they will reject the Bible and won’t listen to the Gospel.

    It’s been that way for centuries. The Catholic church resisted translating the bible into English and burned the first translator, Tyndale, at the stake. They knew it was a kludgy old book centuries ago.

    The bible is largely fiction and wildly wrong in most places about anything factual.

    And all xians including Ken Ham are cafeteria xians anyway. He rejects the Flat Earth and Geocentrism.

    Making a literal reading of the bible a litmus test works both ways as the fundies are finding out the hard way.

  9. raven says

    3500 — 4000 churches close their doors each year In America
    www. godlikeproductions. com/forum1/message1747707/pg1

    31 posts – 4 authors – 7 Jan 2012
    10,000 churches in America disappeared in a five-year period. …. A number of churches have also been turned into nightclubs and pubs, which in itself is surprising since fewer of us can afford a pint these days. … Posted: 12:11 PM Jan 9 2012 … Doesn’t surprise me the “Sunday churches” closing down …

    It’s no secret US xianity is dying.

    I just found out one of my natal churches shut down.

    It was a great old building from back in the days when the churches had lots of money. And people. A few decades ago it had ca. 1500 members. The membership just got older and smaller and finally they didn’t have enough to keep going.

    It’s almost too bad. They were big on social justice and spent most of their efforts on social relief programs.

  10. John Hinkle says

    “One of the things fundamentalist Christians mess up on is they try to say the earth is 6,000 years old. The Bible never makes that claim.”

    Goat Herder 1: How old is the Earth?
    Goat Herder 2: Well let’s see. Adam and Eve begot Cain, and Cain and his mysterious girlfriend begot… <counts on fingers> … um, about 4000 years old.
    Goat Herder 1: I better write that down.

    <2000 years pass>

    TV Mega-preacher: And it says right here in the Bible folks: the Earth is 4000 years old!
    Old Lady in Front Row: But that was written 2000 years ago. Shouldn’t the Earth…
    TV Mega-preacher: Who denies the TRUTH of the Bible?!?

  11. says

    As far as the Crouchs’ 100 grand dog house goes by dog standards that is a mansion. After all, just like one dog year is the equivalent of 7 human years, one human dollar translates into a bunch more in dog money. Unfortunately I don’t know the conversion ratio. 70 to 1 sounds kinda nice though.

  12. anubisprime says

    Yep several folks already homed in on the fundy fear factor that is more a Freudian slip up, because Ham is not the sharpest tool in the box, and certainly not clever enough to keep his fear away from pompous rant.

    “But the point we need to understand is the Gospel comes from this book called the Bible and if generations of people have been led to believe they can’t really trust the Bible or lead to doubt that you can trust its authority or doubt its history – eventually they will reject the Bible and won’t listen to the Gospel.”

    This is the deepest most acrid of fundy fear and is how they roll, therefore even if, as has been demonstrated many times over the years, the fundy is led through the evidence and all the side avenues that feed the fact, this one fear remains as stubborn as a carbuncle on the ass-end of their dubious humanity.

    As Raven pointed out # 4…Money is the principle and only concern they have, and to get their grubby sweaty little mits on it they have to keep infection rates high and stench soaked.

    Further to Raven @ 4… I am rather amused that AIG is apparently haemorrhaging profit, this parasite needs closing down in influence but be lauded as the perfect reason why the fundy nonsense is in fact moronic nonsense, to that end Ham is doing a fine job of exposing the scam for what it is.
    He does not mean to but reality has a way of encroaching on the deluded and keeping up the pre-text must be rather tiresome, I doubt they have had a new exhibit for a while, just a re-jig of the old ones and a lick of paint here and there, maybe some fancy interactive bilge delivering exhibits with disembodied voices meant to be jeebus or his erstwhile dead beat daddy…who knows? what is more who particularly cares?

    I would imagine that most visitors attend because they need a laugh at the literalistic shtick.
    Those that do go with wide eyed awe and IQ’s in the low double figures, do so to shore up the doubts and nervous ticks developing in their psyche and misery loves company apparently.

    Any which way it does not sound particularly hopeful for the mega-scam he conned the state with.
    But that is just a monument to his own ego after-all and was an attempt to get the tax payer to lick his ass.

  13. says

    Michael Heath:

    This:

    “I’d rather be known as the foremost expert on how make world-class spitty slurpies.”

    is disgusting. Thank you, for that!

    It brings to mind the old cold season doggerel of my youth.

    “When you’re neckin’ with your honey, and her nose is kinda runny; you may think it’s funny, but it’s snot.”.

    If supertaKKKular burnin’stoopit was an Olympic category, the KKKristians would just fuckin’ own it!

  14. jaytheostrich says

    “When I was a kid being a game show host seemed to be the lowest possible life form.” – Michael Heath #3.

    I thought that was used-car salesman?

  15. twincats says

    I just found out one of my natal churches shut down.

    It was a great old building from back in the days when the churches had lots of money. And people. A few decades ago it had ca. 1500 members. The membership just got older and smaller and finally they didn’t have enough to keep going.

    It’s almost too bad. They were big on social justice and spent most of their efforts on social relief programs.

    Me, too. I went through parochial school there (grades 7, 8, and 9) which catapulted me into AP Science and English in high school (yes, we were taught the scientific method and real science under the “no one knows what a day was during the creation” premise.)

    The place is shuttered now and fighting the good fight against the neighborhood taggers. Because of my dad, though, I know that in addition to the congregation’s attrition due to age, they also got more fundamentalist so, you know, not too much sadness at its passing.

  16. Ichthyic says

    Ironically, it is the wingnuttiest of the wingnuts who have the most internally consistent world view.

    I hear this a lot, but really, people who say this are missing the means and looking at the end result.

    here’s a simple analogy:

    1+3=6
    2+7=6
    10+42=6

    sure, you think the answer of 6 means “consistent”, but is it really, when you look a the path taken to REACH that conclusion?

  17. Ichthyic says

    I thought that was used-car salesman?

    I thought it is now, as it always has been… lawyer?

  18. Ichthyic says

    They were big on social justice and spent most of their efforts on social relief programs.

    Key word there being… “They”

    churches are, not surprisingly, comprised of people (*flashback to kids game with fingers and steeples*), if people were just using the excuse of the church to do good things, then their hearts were never in it to begin with.

    there is nothing special about a church that encourages one to assist ones neighbors. So if it stopped happening, it’s not because the church went belly up, it’s because the PEOPLE did.

  19. vmanis1 says

    Nothing in the Bible claims the world is 6000 years old. That is the contribution of Archbishop Ussher, who in the early 17th century added up the various chronologies in the Bible to get that figure. Therefore, a literalist could choose any age at all, even 4.5 billion years, without contradicting the Bible.

    The 6000 year figure matches pretty closely the origin of writing in the Middle East. I’d attribute that to chance, but it is curious.

    James Blish, in his tetralogy Cities in Flight, ends his universe, in a hat-tip to the Archbishop, in 4004 A.D.

  20. dingojack says

    Let’s not blame Ussher here, he isn’t responsible for the likes of Ken Ham. He was trying to answer a question (how old is the Earth) using the resources available to him (no, not just the bible).
    If you are interested here‘s what the FoAW says.
    Dingo

  21. dingojack says

    Ussher calculated the universe began around 17:47* (at Jerusalem UTC+2) on Saturday 23 October, 4004 BC [20 September 4003 BC using a proleptic Gregorian calender].
    Curiously, when god got around to creating the moon he made it 3 days past new moon**. Why didn’t god make the moon at either new or full moon? Who knows, god moves in mysterious ways***.

    Dingo
    ——–
    * Well, more likely at around 19:41 (Jerusalem local time), at the moment of the northern hemisphere’s autumnal equinox.
    ** New moon at 11:54 (Jerusalem local time) Sunday 23 October 4004 BC [20 September 4003 BC]. The moon was created some time between 17:42 (Jerusalem local time) Tuesday 25 October [23 September] to 17:42 Wednesday 26 October [24 September]..
    *** “By that I mean that’s enough of that subject, let’s move on to another’

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