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Dec 10 2012

Theocrats Still Confusing Orientation and Acts

The bigots at Liberty Counsel have released a meme on Facebook that pretends that they just love gay people so much and they want to help them overcome their problems, just like they want to help drug addicts and adulterers. Because they love them so much. Which is why they want to deny them equal rights. It’s for their own good, you see.

As they always do, they’re confusing orientation with actions. To the bigots, being gay isn’t something you are, it’s just something you do — and you can decide not to do it, just like you can decide not to shovel snow or wear a tie. But this is nonsense. Gay people can and do have straight sex and straight people can and do have gay sex. It happens all the time. But it doesn’t change their orientation in the least.

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  1. 1
    Maureen Brian

    We in the UK are catching up with you. Now we have an MP who thinks that parents get a say in whether their children are gay and that the wrong sort of sex education can change someone’s orientation.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/10/conservative-mp-parents-gay-children

  2. 2
    Gretchen

    So does the Liberty Counsel refuse to call people with addictions addicts? Does it refuse to call pedophiles pedophiles? Does it refuse to call people who are relentlessly compelled to draw, paint, perform etc. artists? People who read all of the time– are they readers, or would it be “confining” to call them that?

  3. 3
    Doug Little

    Regardless of whether it is a choice or not, which it isn’t, where is their evidence that it is damaging to the individual and society as a whole?

  4. 4
    Gretchen

    Regardless of whether it is a choice or not, which it isn’t, where is their evidence that it is damaging to the individual and society as a whole?

    It’s the “unhealthy interactions,” you see.

    Not that they could name a single interaction that occurs between homosexuals but not between straight couples which is “unhealthy” on that basis.

  5. 5
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Okay, I have to put this here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A85ipUgy5B4

    To be clear, I’m not comparing queerness or even queer sex to the actions described in the video. It’s just appropriate as a comment on what the theocratic right are attempting to do, and how *they* see queerness/queer sex.

    And, FSM help me, it’s funny.

  6. 6
    eric

    The cynic in me says that the Liberty Council compares gays to drug addicts because they really want to advocate long jail sentences for both.

  7. 7
    hunter

    I’m not at all convinced nastiness like this is the result of simple ignorance — they’ve had ample opportunity to correct their mistaken view of homosexuality. It’s a political stance that banks (quite literally) on their audience’s ignorance. They’re not “confusing” anything — except those who are foolish enough to believe them.

  8. 8
    Aratina Cage

    Nicely put.

  9. 9
    Michael Heath

    hunter writes:

    I’m not at all convinced nastiness like this is the result of simple ignorance — they’ve had ample opportunity to correct their mistaken view of homosexuality
    [emphasis mine - MH]

    That’s why most observations of conservative Christian behavior point instead towards determined ignorance. That’s a far more likely choice than cynical lying; especially since cynicism requires some degree of well-informedness whereas conservative Christians define themselves by their ignorance, avoidance, and denialism of inconvenient facts.

  10. 10
    NitricAcid

    I’m not in the least bit surprised by the comparison between gays and addicts. As far as L”U” is concerned, they’re both unhealthy lifestyles, and can see no more reason to legalize homosexual acts than the legalize the use of heroin (nobody is standing up for the rights of addicts to get high, so why should we support the rights of gays to indulge in sodomy?).

    They probably don’t know that normal people do the same things in the bedroom as gays. Not that I’m suggesting that these two groups are exclusive, of course, but the L”U”-type people probably believe that only a pervert would do anything beyond what is required for procreation.

    Of course, it can be proven much more easily that smoking is an unhealthy, disgusting lifestyle- should we argue in the legislature that smokers shouldn’t be allowed to adopt kids?

  11. 11
    NitricAcid

    To correct their ignorance, they’d have to listen to one of us perverted leftist weirdos. That’s like listening to Satan- they’ll rarely be willing to do that.

  12. 12
    lldayo

    Slightly off topic:
    Anyone else annoyed by the fact they couldn’t filter out the glowing red exit sign in the picture? I keep staring at it wondering how they added all of the other stuff to the picture but missed that small part.

  13. 13
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    the L”U”-type people probably believe that only a pervert would do anything beyond what is required for procreation.

    Which they believe of themselves as they furiously masturbate to online porn (or whatever)… thus they need to shout down all the people who freely admit to wanting to do or doing anything sexual and non-procreative. Because 1) those evil people are just making it harder for them not to masturbate and thus their sexxxy, sexxxy behavior is threatening them with a lake of fire -torture forever!- and how evil it is of the hedonists to threaten the involuntarily perverted LUers’ souls
    2) If they don’t loudly denounce the hedonists, people might suspect that they secretly sympathize with the hedonists. Which wouldn’t be so bad, except that those suspicious neighbors might then find out about their furious masturbation (or whatever – impure thoughts might be enough to trigger this anxiety). Then those folk would think they really are on the side of the hedonists who believe that it’s okay to engage in non-procreative sexxxy times merely because of twice daily masturbation! The horror! Hopefully loudly denouncing the hedonists will keep that perversion hidden. It worked so well for Rekkers and Haggard!

  14. 14
    d.c.wilson

    In their worldview, the lure of hot, sweaty man-flesh is just another temptation of the devil, just like alcohol or drugs, or the impulse to mug grandma for her Social Security check. It doesn’t matter which one Satan puts in front of you, you have to resist it. That’s why it’s all about actions to them. They see all of the above as equally destructive to society (proof is irrelevant) because the babble says so. Being oriented toward homosexuality is no different than having a taste for alcohol. It’s all Lucifer’s trap.

    It’s also why they insist pray the gay away works. It doesn’t matter if a homosexual still has desires toward the same gender. So long as they repress those impulses, Baby Jesus won’t cry. That’s the most important thing.

  15. 15
    cptdoom

    1) Heresy was once considered “damaging” both to those who chose to engage in the “wrong” religion and to the good of society as a whole. If society can survive the advent of Mormonism, it can survive marriage equality.

    2) Newt Gingrich and the woman he paid to have sex with him (over a 6-year period) are now considered legally married. Is that behavior the government or religion (the RC church annulled Newt’s previous two marriages so he could wed his adulterous partner officially in the church) should be encouraging?

  16. 16
    frog

    Ildayo: Anyone else annoyed by the fact they couldn’t filter out the glowing red exit sign in the picture?

    –>That’s not an exit sign. That’s Satan’s glowing red asshole, tempting all those gay fellows! See what gay marriage will bring? Aaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!

  17. 17
    Moggie

    What’s an “adulteress husband”?

  18. 18
    Zinc Avenger (Sarcasm Tags 3.0 Compliant)

    Yet they don’t campaign against drug addicts getting married.

  19. 19
    Sastra

    I had fun re-formulating the statement as a compassionate reaching out to Christians. They deserve love and respect because they are human beings despite their false, distorted views about what’s true or not. So let’s not define them by their beliefs. They can and perhaps will choose to change their minds: their deep hunger for answers is not going to be satisfied by a superficial and unhealthy attempt to have a relationship with an imaginary being.

    And just like smoking or drug addiction, Christianity should not be encouraged or promoted by our government.

    Hey, it works even better like this.

  20. 20
    lofgren

    This reads like the desperate rationalization of some poor bastard who’s never recovered from a little experimentation at camp when he was 13.

  21. 21
    Gretchen

    Yet they don’t campaign against drug addicts getting married.

    But they campaign against drug addicts doing drugs. In fairness, the gays are also not allowed to do illicit drugs, just as the drug addicts aren’t allowed to get gay married.

    I imagine it’s equally vexing to a fundamentalist that regardless of the law, drug users are going to keep on usin’ and gays are going to keep on sexin’.

  22. 22
    Ichthyic

    In their worldview, the lure of hot, sweaty man-flesh is just another temptation of the devil

    As is often mentioned, it is indeed interesting that 99% of the time homophobes mention gay sex, they are referring only to male-male anal intercourse.

    Considering that, taken all together, I’d say that this is less than 10% of the total proportion of same-sex interactions, it always seemed a bit… odd to me. Of course, my considerations also take into account women, but even so, I have seen studies that show the bulk of same sex in males involves oral rather than penetrative sex.

    is this a result of patriarchies in religious populations driving a male-dominated meme?

  23. 23
    Doug Little

    Of course, my considerations also take into account women

    Well there’s your problem!

  24. 24
    lofgren

    is this a result of patriarchies in religious populations driving a male-dominated meme?

    I think the reason for focusing on men is different for the reasons for focusing on anal sex.

    The reasons for focusing on men is that in their hierarchical worldview, gay men are the greater betrayers of their role because they are debasing themselves by acting like women. It’s understandable that a woman would want to act like a man because men are superior to women. A man acting like a woman is just appalling.

    I think they focus on anal sex rather than oral because it is less common amongst straight couples, because it is demonstrably more dangerous, and because amongst those who are not interested in anal sex it is considered more disturbing. It’s just another way of demonizing gay people.

  25. 25
    slc1

    Re lofgren @ #24

    More simply, anal sex is icky.

  26. 26
    vmanis1

    None of the hater arguments is ever new. This one is just the old `love the sinner, hate the sin’ that Jerry Falwell (Liberty’s founder) was spreading around 35 years ago. Its purpose is to say `I’m not a bad person, see, I love sinners, just like Jesus did’. I remember Falwell peddling this on a CNN show back in the 80s, trying to argue that DC should retain its criminal sanctions against gay sex. Of course, the argument starts by accepting the premise that gay sex is a sin, which may be true for Liberty University types (except the LGBT ones, of course), but is false for others.

    Anyway, I don’t expect anything different from those types, they seem impervious to learning.

    P.S. I wonder how Falwell is making out in the afterlife. I peg him for the Fifth Circle (Anger), but he might have ended up in the Sixth (Heresy), the Eighth (Fraud), or the Ninth (Treachery). In any case, I hope he’s having a lovely time.

  27. 27
    dan4

    @17: Not only that, but they used “adulteress” as an adjective (it isn’t). Didn’t the Liberty Counselors have anyone proofread this thing?

  28. 28
    Ichthyic

    The reasons for focusing on men is that in their hierarchical worldview, gay men are the greater betrayers of their role because they are debasing themselves by acting like women. It’s understandable that a woman would want to act like a man because men are superior to women. A man acting like a woman is just appalling.

    so then it is patriarchy driven.

  29. 29
    freemage

    dan4: I’m assuming they meant “adulterous”–so they’re saying it would be wrong to permanently brand a man or woman as “adulterous” just for a one-night stand outside of their marriage*, and in the same way it would be wrong (by their horrific misunderstandings of so many things) to label someone who has a same-sex encounter as “homosexual”. But seriously, the poor dears can’t manage basic logic and science; is it any wonder they got stumped by spelling?

    *: It’s really amazing how deeply layered conservative bigotry can be. Note that the popular-culture portrayal of adulterous husbands is the one-night stand; wives are more likely to be portrayed in a long-term affair (I can’t speak to whether or not these portrayals are remotely accurate, but it’s generally what I’ve encountered in the media). Since a ‘single act’ isn’t enough to get one labeled an adulterer, this would let more men off the hook for cheating than women. It really is impressive, in a vile and repugnant way, just how much they can pack into a single sentence.

  30. 30
    John Horstman

    Hehe, their supposition that the public at large finds smoking (I assume they’re talking tobacco) or addiction to other drugs necessarily objectionable is funny. We’ve hit the tipping point for recreational marijuana legalization, and they’re using the war on drugs as an analogy? The bubble is impermeable.

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