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Dec 03 2012

The Hilarity of ‘Willing to Wait’

This week at our CFI Michigan lecture, we heard a talk by Shelli Weisberg, the legislative director for the ACLU of Michigan, about religion in public schools. She brought up an abstinence-only sex ed program called Willing to Wait and I had to take a look at their website. It’s pretty damn funny, especially the FAQs. Like this one, about masturbation:

Alone in your room, it’s been a long day and you’re ready to forget and just feel. Alone, you can imagine whoever, however, whatever you want. Solo-sex makes you feel good, known, loved, larger than life.

Uh, it does? It feels good, yes. But known? Isn’t the whole point of masturbation that you’re alone and others don’t see it? Loved? By whom? And larger than life? WTF? Even weirder, they then contradict that below:

Solo-Sex may bring a sense of pleasure or release, but ultimately it falls short of satisfying our build in desire to be known.

Wow.

We are told ‘Masturbation is a way to learn your body, and then you will know what sensations you like.’ But what if, we don’t ‘learn’ our bodies, instead we teach our bodies what to like?

Through masturbation, over time, your body becomes hypersensitive to your particular touch. So much so that solo-sex makes it difficult for your body to respond to your spouse’s touch because they will touch you differently. Essentially, your body will have to unlearn your touch and relearn his/hers. Often this process takes time, requiring a lot of communication and patience.

So, your body learns. Amazing creations our bodies are! As you teach your body what touch to respond to while thinking about what you want out of sex, with fantasies that turn you on, over and over day after day, in your mind, sex becomes all about you, your pleasure, your feel good, your orgasm. Then, one day, you will get married to your sweetheart and sex is still all about you because you trained your body that way. This could pose a problem…

Yeah, selfishness in bed is all because of masturbation. But didn’t they just say above that you can communicate what you like to your husband or wife? You can’t do that if you have no idea what you like, which leaves you both fumbling in the dark.

Sex is meant to be so much richer and more satisfying than you alone in your room.

No kidding. But it gets better, when they talk about abortion. “When is a person a person?” they ask, and they give some hilarious answers:

The person who lives outside the womb is bigger than the person inside the womb. But is it alright for us to say that someone who is smaller does not have the same rights as someone who is bigger? Does a person who is over six feet tall have more value as a person than someone who is barely four feet tall?…

Do people who live in Florida “count” more than people who live in Michigan? We would laugh as such an idea as obsurd. Still, there is question about whether an unborn person is actually a person because where he resides is inside a womb.

Okey dokey. And while this is a curriculum designed for use in schools, the website is full of misspelled words, poor punctuation and, predictably, randomly capitalized words. Funny stuff.

65 comments

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  1. 1
    Reginald Selkirk

    Do people who live in Florida “count” more than people who live in Michigan? We would laugh as such an idea as obsurd.

    Thanks to the Electoral College, this “obsurdity” is a reality.

  2. 2
    matty1

    If masturbation makes you feel known then maybe you should close the curtains.

  3. 3
    Draken

    ‘k Matty, thanks. Goodbye evening meal.

  4. 4
    Draken

    Why don’t xtian sites like Willing to Wank simply say it upfront: we’re Christians. We believe, on grounds of the KJV Book X verse Y, that you shouldn’t spill your seed on the ground or in a girl you’re not married with. If you don’t believe us, you can go to hell. Roger and out.

  5. 5
    Randomfactor

    If masturbation makes you feel known then maybe you should close the curtains.

    Or open them wider. They seem to think being known is what it’s lacking.

  6. 6
    Randomfactor

    For what it’s worth, they partially agree with Dan Savage regarding masturbation about accustoming the practitioner to a particular sensation. But his solution is to vary your technique widely, rather than give up the pastime. That’s why Savage gets the big bucks.

    Well, that and his spelling’s better.

  7. 7
    Draken

    Oh no, the videos! I got to the videos! Ohmygodohmygodohmygod

  8. 8
    matty1

    Draken, that comment could be read in sooo many ways

  9. 9
    eric

    @4 – because if they did that, their program would not be allowed in schools.

    Early Christians chose to be thrown to lions in an arena rather than deny their faith. Today’s fundies, however, see influencing 2-3 weeks of a junior high sex ed class as important enough that it requires lying about ones’ religious motivation.

  10. 10
    matty1

    OK I clicked the link and I think I preferred my misinterpretation.

  11. 11
    baal

    Damn, Randomfactor @5 got to my non-unique idea before me. Dan Savage emphasizes varying your technique for just that reason (and no death grips!).

    Instead, I’ll remind folks that the sin of Onan is often misrepresented as ‘no wanks for you’. Onan was supposed to impregnate his deceased brother’s wife. He pulled out instead and that was the problem – he failed in a duty. There wasn’t anything in that story about wankery (though some bible scholars do over focus on the holy semen, every sperm is sacred and all).

  12. 12
    Moggie

    And larger than life? WTF?

    Well, it makes me larger for a while.

    Essentially, your body will have to unlearn your touch and relearn his/hers. Often this process takes time, requiring a lot of communication and patience.

    Wouldn’t that be a good thing?

    What’s their view of sex toys, I wonder? Doesn’t that solve the “touching yourself = bad” problem?

  13. 13
    marcus

    “We are told ‘Masturbation is a way to learn your body, and then you will know what sensations you like.’ But what if, we don’t ‘learn’ our bodies, instead we teach our bodies what to like?”

    OMFG! How fucking stupid. I have known sexually healthy women in their 50′s who were pre-orgasmic because of this cretinous bullshit. They didn’t even realize they were capable of orgasm and their husbands were either too ignorant or too selfish to help them discover the capability. The ability to pleasure oneself is empowering and freeing. Oh wait… I get it now.

    Fucking morons!

  14. 14
    thisisaturingtest

    The person who lives outside the womb is bigger than the person inside the womb. But is it alright for us to say that someone who is smaller does not have the same rights as someone who is bigger? Does a person who is over six feet tall have more value as a person than someone who is barely four feet tall?…

    Is a strawman who lives outside the womb of their ideological bubble bigger, or worth more, than the one inside that bubble? Does a strawman who is over six feet tall and lives in Florida have any more right to be considered valid than a short one living in Michigan? Questions, questions…

  15. 15
    Valde

    Notice how these people seem to be *obsesed8 with the wonders of the body?

    They always sound the same. Wondeful, unique, snowflake.

    The body is a miraculous thing, they claim, made by God, and God gave humans the gift of sex, the gift of procreation! And this gift is so special that only straight people can be allowed to do it, and only for the purpose of creating tiny person-zygotes!

    Their rhetoric makes me sick it really does.

  16. 16
    democommie

    “Through masturbation, over time, your body becomes hypersensitive to your particular touch. So much so that solo-sex makes it difficult for your body to respond to your spouse’s touch because they will touch you differently.”

    Lemmesee, I’ve gone more than five years on three different occasionns, without being in a relationship where we, uh, you know, um, have cheap, tawdry, unsanctified, immoral (and, in some jurisdictions, illegal) sex–which always feels EXCELLENT! I remember it taking, literally, seconds, for me to become completely hypersensitive to the touch of the person I was with. And I mean WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY hypersensitive.

    That had to have been written by somebody who has never masturbated without praying for forgiveness WHILE they’re doin’ it.

  17. 17
    matty1

    @15 The way I’ve always heard it put is. Sex is a disgusting sinfull thing that God hates, that is why you should only do it with someone you love and want to be with forever.

  18. 18
    DaveL

    Uh, it does? It feels good, yes. But known? Isn’t the whole point of masturbation that you’re alone and others don’t see it?

    Clearly you’re not a disciple of the Peewee Herman school of self-pleasure.

    Loved? By whom?

    For this to work, you need to use your left hand.

    And larger than life?

    It helps to have very small hands.

    We are told ‘Masturbation is a way to learn your body, and then you will know what sensations you like.’ But what if, we don’t ‘learn’ our bodies, instead we teach our bodies what to like?

    Here’s a meat tenderizer. Come back when you’ve taught your body to like it.

    Through masturbation, over time, your body becomes hypersensitive to your particular touch. So much so that solo-sex makes it difficult for your body to respond to your spouse’s touch because they will touch you differently. Essentially, your body will have to unlearn your touch and relearn his/hers.

    This is otherwise known as the “premature ejaculation gets worse with practice” theory.

  19. 19
    tommykey

    This thread is just crying out for a Woody Allen line.

    “Hey, don’t knock masturbation! It’s sex with someone I love.”

  20. 20
    billseymour

    Amazing creations our bodies are!

    What’s amazing to me is how these folks can think that just about any random thing proves creationism.

    I just got my prostate reamed out on Friday. Gotta be goddidit! (*sheesh*)

  21. 21
    marcus

    @19 tommykey or:
    “I’m such a good lover because I practise a lot on my own.

  22. 22
    Gretchen

    So much so that solo-sex makes it difficult for your body to respond to your spouse’s touch because they will touch you differently. Essentially, your body will have to unlearn your touch and relearn his/hers.

    Must be written by people with an old operating system. They make ‘em now with the ability for multiple users to have administrator privileges.

  23. 23
    katenrala

    Sex is meant to be so much richer and more satisfying than you alone in your room.

    Ah ha ha, ah ha, ha… sex if horrific and I had to find that out the hard way by being with male persons and female persons. There was no mention of asexuality during sex-ed in all my schooling, and no mention of it still virtually everywhere. Apparently all human beings are supposed to be gaga for sex and sex is the greatest thing ever.

    No, like gag me with a spoon.

    I’d stick to masturbation but chemo has made me anorgasmic for several years still to present, and I don’t even miss orgasms either anymore, nor do I care for the friction burns when I do try to have one, which never materializes.

    Oh, I’ll still give people sex if they want it from me and if I think they are a person who deserves that kind of pleasure from me, but I always have to shower and spit and retch and brush my teeth afterwards until the feeling of them touching me goes away. For some reason touching of any sort stays on my flesh anywhere I’m touched even if the touch is accidental, from half an hour to a full hour and after a lifetime of that it has become a violation of my body in my opinion, but you gotta do what you gotta do to keep your buds happy and maintain the trust and emotional bonds that are very important in a relationship. I do not say no to certain people even though I really, really want to sometimes.

    But the whole hypersensitive thing? That’s bunk in my opinion. All my sex has been sensitive and awful for it and the way I masturbate is a way that I don’t know how it could be done with another person, unless they directly tried to do what I do to me.

    I do draw porn and erotic stuff, and like looking at drawings and sculpture of it, as I think sex is interesting enough to be explored critically and in more fantasy-type ways, and it works well when put together as a comic, text and illustrations, the best of both worlds.

    As for the abortion thing, I’m sick of the framing that it is about people bullying fetuses. Why is a pregnant person’s right to control their body and have control over whether they end or complete their act of reproduction so hard for pro-lifers to understand? Well they do understand, they just hate women and female persons that much that if some hate to die, usually with their non-viable fetus, and some doctors have to be murdered, than so be it. The lifers are the bullies and terrorists but they have “strong convictions” so apparently they get a pass in the US and other countries and get kill and violate the bodily autonomy others despite those peoples’ strong convictions against that. Yay religious privilege in action!

    And then MRAs want to have “financial abortions,” but unfortunately for them their act of reproduction ended when they blew their wad into another person.

    Hey Dingo, want a custom drawing of what I draw well as to show that I’m cool with you even for the fight the other day?

  24. 24
    Ichthyic

    Through masturbation, over time, your body becomes hypersensitive to your particular touch. So much so that solo-sex makes it difficult for your body to respond to your spouse’s touch because they will touch you differently. Essentially, your body will have to unlearn your touch and relearn his/hers. Often this process takes time, requiring a lot of communication and patience.

    honestly? I always viewed the “lot of communication and patience” part to be one of the best things about a developing relationship.

  25. 25
    Ichthyic

    All my sex has been sensitive and awful for it and the way I masturbate is a way that I don’t know how it could be done with another person, unless they directly tried to do what I do to me.

    I’m terribly sorry you’ve had such a poor experience, but I trust you realize that others have had almost polar opposite experiences?

    For some reason touching of any sort stays on my flesh anywhere I’m touched even if the touch is accidental, from half an hour to a full hour and after a lifetime of that it has become a violation of my body in my opinion, but you gotta do what you gotta do to keep your buds happy and maintain the trust and emotional bonds that are very important in a relationship.

    this does NOT sound healthy to me, not in the reaction, nor in the rationalization. It sounds like you might want to talk to your GP about such an extreme reaction. You shouldn’t have to deal with feeling like you’re having sex just to please others (others should be copacetic with however you wish to limit your interactions with them, expecially if they are your friends), nor should you be having to feel like the touch of others makes you want to scrub your skin off.

    seriously, if it were me, I’d want some professional input on it.

  26. 26
    sharculese

    @draken

    In addition the problem of explicit religious messages that’s already been pointed out, a lot of the framing of sex ed in the US is about effectiveness (because abstinence-only doesn’t work), and being upfront about pushing Christianity at all costs would pretty much give the game away on that point.

  27. 27
    dingojack

    katenrala – As I’ve said before, to another commentator (Mrroberts), in a different thread, on a different blog (the old FTB):
    “don’t confuse ‘disagreement’ with ‘dislike’.”
    I don’t dislike you, hell I don’t even know you, but I still might disagree with you (even vehemently at times).
    So sure, draw me a picture, but let everyone share (perhaps there could be an atheist ‘art-share’ page. How about it Ed?)
    :) Dingo
    —–
    PS: Do you think that your reaction to touch might a product of your earlier rape? Have you considered going to see someone about that. Often talking about a problem helps to find a solution (or at the very least an acceptance) of the problem.
    [OK that last sentence was a bit dodgy grammatically, but I think you know what I meant]

  28. 28
    pacal

    Not a surprise that along with demanding that people, especially women, be “pure” until they get married, they are down on jerking off also.

    I don’t get it; it is bad to have sex with someone your not married too and it is bad to masturbate so that in your late teens and into your mid twenties you get all horny and antsy. Hell I remember those years and it wasn’t pleasant.

    Just how do they square that one. Don’t have sex at all before marriage and don’t masturbate. Your going to get an awful lot of truly horny teenagers and other young people walking about waiting to explode. You will also get a awful lot of these same people failing and having sex because their horny has hell and can’t take it anymore.

  29. 29
    shockna

    Oh no, the videos! I got to the videos! Ohmygodohmygodohmygod

    That was possibly the most uncomfortable abstinence metaphor I’ve ever seen; and that’s not counting the egregious lie about condoms they stuck in.

  30. 30
    DonDueed

    According to Randomfactor,

    For what it’s worth, they partially agree with Dan Savage regarding masturbation about accustoming the practitioner to a particular sensation.

    Well, I’ve heard it called a lot of things, but “the practitioner” just may be my new favorite.

  31. 31
    lofgren

    That was possibly the most uncomfortable abstinence metaphor I’ve ever seen;

    Unlike an actual shoe, people don’t get worn out through use. This video is encouraging people to view their partner’s virginity as a piece of property they are entitled to, rather than viewing the partner’s first (and subsequent) time(s) as one aspect of the whole person that they fell in love with. I think it’s safe to say that anybody who had sex with the entire football team in high school (or college?) would be a very different person today had they been abstinent. You don’t have twenty sexual partners before you’re eighteen without it affecting you somehow. In this case it made this girl into the woman that this guy fell in love with, and the woman who fell in love with him.

    After he gave her his shoes, the woman should have said, “My shoes have been worn a few times already, so instead of footwear I thought you might enjoy this brain-melting blowjob technique I invented.”

  32. 32
    coryat

    “Amazing creations our bodies are!”

    Yoda? Oh God Yoda so known you make me feel!

  33. 33
    Ichthyic

    I think it’s safe to say that anybody who had sex with the entire football team in high school (or college?) would be a very different person today had they been abstinent. You don’t have twenty sexual partners before you’re eighteen without it affecting you somehow

    I think this is more a conclusion based on intuition than experience.

    you could just as easily reverse it and say that remaining abstinent until you’re 30 has an even greater affect on personality.

    and, is your implication that one or the other would have a negative influence on personality?

    how, exactly?

  34. 34
    Ichthyic

    …all I’m saying is I think it’s best not to judge an individual’s sexual choices and use them to make conclusions about what kind of person that individual is.

    using your own example, those 20 football teens she slept with probably knew absolutely nothing about advanced sexual technique.

    learning that 2+2=4 is a tiny bit useful. learning it 20 times adds no new information.

  35. 35
    Ichthyic

    You will also get a awful lot of these same people failing and having sex because their horny has hell and can’t take it anymore.

    …or feeling so guilty about having “lustfull feelings” that they literally can’t take it any more.

    that happens too.

    religion has used and even created, guilt, as a tool to support its own existence for as long as there have been religions.

    fuck em all, I say (er, not literally). useless trash we should have left behind hundreds of years ago.

  36. 36
    democommie

    “…or feeling so guilty about having “lustfull feelings” that they literally can’t take it any more.”

    Yeah, I remember those days, second grade. {;>)

  37. 37
    dingojack

    lofgren (#31) – “… anybody who had sex with the entire football team in high school (or college?)”

    Just out of interest how many female high school/ college football teams are there? (Nope, no assumptions there!)

    DonDueed (#30) – sorry it me so long to reply, I was out ‘polishing the practitioner’. :D

    Draken (#7) – “…Ohmygodohmygodohmygod”

    Did any one think of this?

    Dingo
    —–
    ‘Masturbation – sex with a better class of people’. ;)

  38. 38
    dingojack

    Demo – back when the Republican Dwight D Eisenhower was Prez, and black folks got to sit in the back of the bus.
    Nowadays a black guy, Barak Obama is Prez, and the Repubs are riding the short bus.
    How things have changed! ;)
    Dingo

  39. 39
    Ichthyic

    Yeah, I remember those days, second grade.

    yeesh, they grow up so fast these days…

  40. 40
    martinc

    Solo-Sex may bring a sense of pleasure or release, but ultimately it falls short of satisfying our built-in desire to be known.

    And therefore, yea verily, God gave unto man – and woman, praise be to God! – the Webcam.

  41. 41
    andrew

    But what if, we don’t ‘learn’ our bodies, instead we teach our bodies what to like?

    Through masturbation, over time, your body becomes hypersensitive to your particular touch. So much so that solo-sex makes it difficult for your body to respond to your spouse’s touch because they will touch you differently.

    FSM forbid that you vary your technique …

  42. 42
    lofgren

    you could just as easily reverse it and say that remaining abstinent until you’re 30 has an even greater affect on personality.

    I’m not sure it’s possible to actually compare the two choices and determine which has a “greater” effect, but, yes, basic logic tells us that if having 20 partners before the age of 18 has an effect on one’s personality, then not having 20 partners must also have an effect.

    Here’s another way of putting it: having one partner before the age of 18 has an effect on one’s personality. Having two partners before the age of 18 has an effect on one’s personality. Having three partners before the age of 18 has an effect on one’s personality. I’m sure high numbers start to dilute the impact of additional partners after a certain point, with some variation according to individual and circumstance. I doubt that the effect becomes negligible between the line backer and the kicker.

    Thought experiment: two students with equal opportunity for sex. One chooses to do so, the other chooses not to do so. Already we have very different experiences, and at least slightly different outlooks and personality given that one chose to lose their virginity and one chose not to. The former student then has sex with another partner. The latter continues to abstain. The first student’s experience of sex with other people has now doubled. Following the first partner, they chose to take a second. Were they in love with the first? Were they in love with the second? Were they in a steady relationship with either or were they one-time hookups? Did they have oral sex? Do they have sex regularly? Do they tell their friends? How do their friends react? How does the school rumor mill react? Do their parents find out? How do they react? If their parents and friends don’t find out, do they have to work hard to keep the secret? Is this a big secret for them or a little one? Where do they have sex and when? Were both partners of the same gender? The same race? The same age? The same experience? Did they enjoy different things or similar things? Were they serial partners or did the three of them have sex together? Were they cheating on the first partner? Were they cheating on the second partner with the first partner when they lost their virginity, and they had to play-act for the second partner that they had never done this before?

    It doesn’t matter what the answers to these questions are. What matters is that you can’t even ask them about the abstinent student. These are choices and experiences that the second student will never have, because he or she has chosen not to have sex with two partners.

    Now repeat that 19x.

    and, is your implication that one or the other would have a negative influence on personality?

    Implication? I stated it outright:

    In this case it made this girl into the woman that this guy fell in love with, and the woman who fell in love with him.

    Presumably, falling in love with this girl and having her fall in love with him is a positive thing to this guy, seeing as they just got married. So from his perspective, yeah, her sexual history is a positive thing, and a different sexual history that would have made her into somebody who didn’t love him, or whom he could not love, would be a negative.

    …all I’m saying is I think it’s best not to judge an individual’s sexual choices and use them to make conclusions about what kind of person that individual is.

    using your own example, those 20 football teens she slept with probably knew absolutely nothing about advanced sexual technique.

    learning that 2+2=4 is a tiny bit useful. learning it 20 times adds no new information.

    I’m having a lot of difficulty with this. It seems like it’s possible you don’t understand how fiction works. I also seems like you might be saying that sexual partners subsequent to the first are not only interchangeable, but that the experience of sex with a new partner is itself meaningless unless the partner is schooled in “advanced sexual technique.” Can you please rewrite this post so that it is clear exactly what you are saying? Although congratulations: your analogy of sexual partners to integers is about as odious as the video’s comparison of them to shoes.

    Just out of interest how many female high school/ college football teams are there? (Nope, no assumptions there!)

    What assumption? The character admitted that she had sex with the entire football team and says that she made them wear “socks,” clearly a symbol for condoms. I guess it’s possible she means that she had sex with a female football team and the socks refer to a dental dam, but, really, how likely is that?

  43. 43
    dingojack

    Whoops, reading comprehension failure!
    But when you say ‘anyone’ the assumption you are making (I think) is ‘gay men and/or straight women’, perhaps a more general analogy would be better for your purpose.
    Dingo
    —–
    Sorry, I am having a little difficulty get the video to load.

  44. 44
    lofgren

    But when you say ‘anyone’ the assumption you are making (I think) is ‘gay men and/or straight women’, perhaps a more general analogy would be better for your purpose.

    When I say “anyone,” I mean “anyone.”

    But if you are really hung up on this: yes, anybody who has sex with an entire field hockey team will also be affected by the experience.

    Straight, gay, bi, male, female, if you choose to have sex with an entire sports team (male, female, or mixed) during your high school years, you are going to be a different person than if you had chosen otherwise.

  45. 45
    bad Jim

    Woody Allen, approximately:

    I remember the first time I had sex. I was scared. It was dark. I was alone.

  46. 46
    Ichthyic

    The first student’s experience of sex with other people has now doubled.

    oops, this is where your thought experiment breaks down.

    this is not at all reflective of what is *learned* from each experience.

    each sexual experience is not necessarily an equal increase in what one learns.

  47. 47
    Ichthyic

    So from his perspective, yeah, her sexual history is a positive thing, and a different sexual history that would have made her into somebody who didn’t love him, or whom he could not love, would be a negative.

    but quite possibly a positive to someone else.

    again, you’re reaching to try and judge things quantitatively here. it just doesn’t work like that.

  48. 48
    Ichthyic

    I also seems like you might be saying that sexual partners subsequent to the first are not only interchangeable, but that the experience of sex with a new partner is itself meaningless unless the partner is schooled in “advanced sexual technique.”

    you really like reading things into what other people are saying.

    you should really think shorter, ask quicker questions, rather than going so far out on a limb.

    none of this is even close to what I said.

  49. 49
    Ichthyic

    your analogy of sexual partners to integers is about as odious as the video’s comparison of them to shoes.

    uh, YOU’RE the one trying to quantize this issue.

    you’re projecting that on to me!

    I’m the one trying to tell you that sexual experiences don’t work like that. Maybe it’s just the perspective of an old fart, but really, you can have sex with a dozen people and learn nothing new from any of them, or have sex with one person and learn a bunch of new things.

    it’s variable, and typically, the younger you are, the less you have experienced.

    so yes, an 18 year old who had sex with an entire football team might indeed have learned very little about sex.

    the number of partners does not necessarily equate to great levels of experience.

  50. 50
    Ichthyic

    But if you are really hung up on this: yes, anybody who has sex with an entire field hockey team will also be affected by the experience.

    this is no more of an insight than saying having sex with one person means you will be affected by the experience.

  51. 51
    lofgren

    this is not at all reflective of what is *learned* from each experience.

    each sexual experience is not necessarily an equal increase in what one learns.

    Uh, OK.

    Supposing I am willing to accept this, despite the undefined word “learns.”

    So?

    but quite possibly a positive to someone else.

    again, you’re reaching to try and judge things quantitatively here. it just doesn’t work like that.

    I’m not sure what you mean by “quantitative.”

    The bride has had previous sexual partners.

    Despite claiming to love her, the groom is being a sanctimonious dick about it.

    These are the only two people in this scenario.

    One aspect of the bride’s personality is her sexual experience and choices.

    The groom says he loves her, but essentially wishes that she had somehow become the person he loves while having a thoroughly different history so that he could be the one to claim her virginity.

    This is assholery.

    I’m not sure what you think I am quantifying.

    none of this is even close to what I said.

    Yes, as I said I was having trouble figuring out what you were trying to say. The whole post made very little sense to me.

    uh, YOU’RE the one trying to quantize this issue.

    Assuming you mean “quantify,” still not sure what this means.

    so yes, an 18 year old who had sex with an entire football team might indeed have learned very little about sex.

    Again, assuming I accept this, mostly because I just don’t care to argue the point, so what? I guess I just don’t understand why you keep repeating this bit. Are you under the impression that I am claiming otherwise? Because I really don’t care.

    this is no more of an insight than saying having sex with one person means you will be affected by the experience.

    Right. I said that too. I said both things. They were both said by me. You are now just repeating things I said back at me.

  52. 52
    lofgren

    Icthyic, it is clear we are talking past each other.

    What is it you think I am trying to say?

    Here is what you appear to be saying:

    It is impossible to quantify sexual knowledge based on exclusively on total number of partners, and further quantity of sexual knowledge is not a sufficient basis for absolute moral judgement.

    But I feel like that can’t possibly be right, because that would be a total non sequitur if it was offered in response to my own statements.

    If this is what you are trying to say, I have no interest in arguing it with you. Parts of it I agree with. Parts of it I think are unsalvageable nonsense or mushy thinking.

    None of it has any bearing whatsoever on my points regarding this video and the opinions espoused by the characters therein, nor does it alter in any way my preferred alternate ending for said video.

    Here is the sequence of events:

    Somebody posted a fictional scene about a woman whose new husband was making a big deal out of her sexual history, which included having sex with a football team.

    I commented that anybody who has chosen to have sex with an entire football team would obviously be a different person had she made a different choice. It’s not clear whether she had sex with the team simultaneously or serially or some combination of both, but either way the incident(s) presented a set of choices, and each choice provided a series of experiences, and the character navigated those experiences to become the woman who her husband fell in love with, and who would fall in love with her husband. To walk that person’s life all the way back to that initial sexual experience, undoing every relationship, consequence, and decision related to her sex life along the way, and then rewrite her life so that she made different choices and had radically different experiences would have a rippling effect that would alter not only who she is today, but where she is, with whom she associates, what and whom she desires, and other major facets of her personality. Quite possibly – maybe even probably, given the sheer number of edits required to erase more than twenty sexual partners during her immediately post-pubescent years – this would result in the marriage never happening, and therefore neither she nor her husband would have the love and marital bliss that they supposedly have now.

    I then proposed an alternate fictional ending for these fictional characters in this fictional scene, one which I find more satisfying.

    I made no judgements, made no attempt to quantify “sexual knowledge,” and did not correlate total sexual knowledge with total number of partners. I don’t even know what “sexual knowledge” or “advanced sexual technique” mean in this context.

    Then you said a bunch of stuff while quoting my post. Despite the quotes, which imply some kind of relationship to my own statements, it appears that your stuff is entirely unrelated to my statements, or to anything said by anybody in this thread thus far.

  53. 53
    lofgren

    OK, just looked up quantize:

    to subdivide (as energy) into small but measurable increments

    I guess this is related to my assertion that two partners is twice as many as one.

    Just so we’re clear:

    2 x 1 = 2

    2 = 2/1

    1 = 2/2

    1 + 1 = 2

    So yeah, I stand by that statement. Since I don’t give a shit about “sexual knowledge” or “advanced technique,” the fact that the second partner may yield more or less “knowledge” just doesn’t matter to me. Experience with one partner + experience with a second partner = experience with two partners, which is two times as many partners as one.

  54. 54
    stace

    The best part of wanking is the cuddling afterwards. Or the not-cuddling. Either way, it’s totally your choice.

  55. 55
    katenrala

    I’m terribly sorry you’ve had such a poor experience, but I trust you realize that others have had almost polar opposite experiences?

    Of course. :) I know from inquiring about peoples’ experiences and reading articles about peoples’ experiences that good sex is one of the best experiences people can have. Sometimes I really, really wish I could have that. It’s one of the reasons why I’ll do sex, maybe I’ll have that experience too one day.

    this does NOT sound healthy to me, not in the reaction, nor in the rationalization. It sounds like you might want to talk to your GP about such an extreme reaction. You shouldn’t have to deal with feeling like you’re having sex just to please others (others should be copacetic with however you wish to limit your interactions with them, expecially if they are your friends), nor should you be having to feel like the touch of others makes you want to scrub your skin off.

    seriously, if it were me, I’d want some professional input on it.

    I know that many people think the fact I’ll do sex with people even though I hate being involved in the act is unhealthy, but it is not an uncommon thing for some asexuals to do. Nearly all people are sexual so I’ll do what sexual people enjoy for the people I value and want in my life. It’s just a compromise like any other that people have to do in a close relationship. I’ve tried talking with others about it, but only other asexuals seem to understand what my situation is like, as some are in the same situation, and understand why someone who hates sex would still do it as it is for those who they think deserve that intimacy and pleasure. I try to be good at sex for my partner’s sake and make sure they are happy and satisfied. I still enjoy the whole intense emotionally bonding part with those who are that close to me and I just lie back and think of England during the physical parts and do what they ask for if I’m not minding what they ask for.

    All my partners have listened to me as well. If I don’t feel like doing a particular act and say so, they don’t make me do it nor go ahead with what they want anyway, they are good friends and people I’ve been friends with since middle-school and I desperately want to propose to one of them and marry him if I could. They do not exploit me or my sexual philosophy, and I usually ask if they want what I think they want after reading their body language and figuring out that they are flirting with me. I don’t flirt and don’t know how, so I’m a little blunt by cutting to the chase with them.

    I’ve been flirted with a lot by strangers and minor acquaintances, I think it is because I work hard to be small and non-threatening and deliberately seek a lower position, even if I have to sit on the floor when interacting with others in a informal setting, especially at parties, but I simply won’t be with people I don’t know well even if I found their mannerisms superficially attractive. Sometimes I regret not offering these people what I think they wanted, because maybe it would have been that one time when I would actually enjoy the physical part, but I’m happy overall in my choices.

    I think that I might understand the “ick factor” sexual people have about what I do as it is an alien form of sexual expression to them, though some have had extreme responses and even told me it would be like they would be raping a person, some even called me “like a rapist,” but what I do is consensual all around and fun for my partners; and all I have to do afterwards is shower, get all the tastes and smells and touch sensations off me, sometimes throw up, drink a soda, and pop some pills like clonazepam to calm me down. No biggie really.

    PS: Do you think that your reaction to touch might a product of your earlier rape? Have you considered going to see someone about that. Often talking about a problem helps to find a solution (or at the very least an acceptance) of the problem.

    The whole touching thing has to do with my autism, I’m simply too sensitive to it and the touching thing has been a life-long problem for me, especially since in the US people are very touchy and can’t keep their hands off others and don’t bother to ask permission to touch.

    It’s been worse since my forequarter amputation as the amputation caused me to develop fibromyalgia due to the neurological trauma. I also have a phantom arm from the top all the way to the fingertips (I can even move that limb, hand, and fingers), collar bone, and shoulder blade and they will hurt when I’m touched in certain spots. In a writing class a person patted me on my back where my shoulder blade used to be, that hurt. Once a owner of a restaurant patted me right on my amputation scar on my neck as I have no shoulder on my right side to pat, and that caused me a significant amount of pain. I no longer go to that restaurant because of that incident.

    I even flinch when my mother touches me, but I’ve expressed to her that she is allowed to touch me, however without a warning the touch will still bother me unlike when I’m given a notice that she’s going to touch me which will then not stay on my skin for very long. Very few besides my mom can touch me without causing me a problem.

    I don’t think my rape has much to do with my sexuality, even though it eats at me all the time and I think about it several times a week still, even though it happened 13 years ago when I was 17. My orientation is asexual and I knew what my orientation was beginning when I was 12, well before my rape but I was confused about my orientation as I was only taught and knew from others that there was just 3 orientations, straight, gay/lesbian, and bisexual, which is why I tried sex in my twenties with male and female persons to see if I was bi as I thought my lack of desire for sex and unattraction to either sex was a form of bisexualism. Turned out that I’m not bi. I wish I had internet access when I was younger as I would have learned about asexuality in my early or mid teens

    I find it impossibly difficult to talk about my rape except online, but even then it’s very hard to open up about it. I was raped by 4 women and the attitude that a lot of people have about female-on-male rape disturbs me so much that it prevents me from opening up about it. Too many people, men especially, would think that I’d gotten very lucky even though in reality I was so terrified that I had a horrible panic attack and then suffered an autistic shut down to the point that my consciousness went away to protect my personality and mind. I’ve never had a shut down that badly before or since. Of course I remember the raw data my senses still fed me but the data was not filtered in the sensible way it is when your mind is working. I mostly remember being yelled at a lot and some of the touching, and the show that was on the TV where I was as I was distracting myself.

    —–
    Dingo, the picture I want to draw for you, and I really do want to give you something as a sort of make-up, would be of a nude in a soft erotic manner, male or female, your choice and choice of depiction and pose, but I don’t think such artwork would be appropriate to share on this blog.

    I can do many styles, several US comic styles, several Japanese manga styles, a few European comic styles, and furry art in many styles, just name a artist or comic you like for any of the styles and I should be able to draw something that looks like the artist’s work, but it would be line art only as coloring takes as much or more time as drawing does and I’ve some gift art to make too this month for Christmas. You’ll get a resolution independent vector file and a high resolution tiff file, and a pdf breaking down the process as a behind-the-scenes thing with no licenses restricting what you could with the art as I am a free culture, copyleft kind of person.

  56. 56
    nimuae

    I think the method of teaching that sex (for wimmens) is something that corrupts, reduces value, causes emotional damage and ESPECIALLY is a sign that a man wants to harm you is a ridiculous way to strengthen marriage.

    Suddenly, upon slipping on the ring, sex (with her Husband, of course) all her fears, doubts, etc are magically relieved and her husband wants to “use” her body without somehow making her less than she was.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t flip emotional switches that easily.

    So after a lifetime of sex is bad, bad, bad.. and maybe (because you’re both virgins, presumably) the sex wasn’t the pinnicle of success, she wakes up disappointed that magically it wasn’t perfect and not realizing that those times of exploration and patience are required.

    It might explain the high divorce rate among xians.

  57. 57
    Ichthyic

    The whole touching thing has to do with my autism

    that was very useful information! I have a close friend that was *just* diagnosed with autism that has the exact same issue.

    thanks.

  58. 58
    Ichthyic

    Since I don’t give a shit about “sexual knowledge” or “advanced technique,” the fact that the second partner may yield more or less “knowledge” just doesn’t matter to me.

    that’s nice to know, but totally irrelevant to the argument.

    if we’re going to run off tangents indefinitely, I really do have better things to do.

  59. 59
    lofgren

    that’s nice to know, but totally irrelevant to the argument.

    I still don’t know what your argument even is.

  60. 60
    lofgren

    Icthyic, at the very least could you answer my question in #52? There has obviously been a breakdown in communication here. If you are unwilling to make clear your own points, I would at least like to know what you thought you were arguing against.

  61. 61
    Ichthyic

    I still don’t know what your argument even is.

    forget it. seriously. you’re lost in your own argument.

  62. 62
    lofgren

    forget it. seriously. you’re lost in your own argument.

    I don’t know what that means either.

    I’m pretty comfortable with my argument. You seem to have some kind of objection to it. I still cannot figure out what that objection is. I would honestly like to know. Your refusal to answer direct questions or respond substantively is not helping.

  63. 63
    lofgren

    Again, here is my attempt to summarize your points as I understand them:

    It is impossible to quantify sexual knowledge based on exclusively on total number of partners, and further quantity of sexual knowledge is not a sufficient basis for absolute moral judgement.

    Is this accurate or not? If not, can you concisely state your claim? This is all I ask. I have asked four times now. Not only have you deflected each time, you actually chastised me for not asking questions as a means of deflection!

  64. 64
    Valde

    #56 katenrala, I believe that I am sort of like you. For one thing. i hate being touched and touching. And I cannot stand shows of affection. “Romantic” behaviours, such as kissing and holding hands make me want to retch.

    I really cannot understand why people like hugging kissing and cuddling so much. I just don’t get it. I kiss my kitty on her fluffy cheeks, but thats different. Kissing a person just feels WRONG to me.

  65. 65
    katenrala

    Bobo @ 64

    You could be asexual or of another tiny minority sexuality or just not into sexual stuff even if you ID as straight, gay/lesbian/bi/what-have-you or may be on the autism spectrum or of another mind like schizoid type (as I was thought to be before I finally got diagnosed) or other. Could be anything as to why, even as simple as just a built-in dislike.

    But there is nothing at all wrong about feeling differently from most about public displays of affection, not “getting” them and the physical act of kissing and other things, so long as you aren’t shaming, moralizing to, or harassing others for what they do. Your difference is simply who you are and it’s best to love who you are if there’s nothing to be done to change yourself. I love being a autistic and I can’t conceive of any other way I could be even if I sometimes get into trouble socially or am harassed for it.

    You may have learned the hard way as I have: don’t mention that you don’t get it or dislike such things unless among people who can understand that people are different or among friends when it comes to the ways and whys of affection.

    I got reemed for asking why people dated if they always ended up hurt when I was among persons complaining about how bad all their relationships and breakups were, as I didn’t know I was so extremely different from “normal” people and thought it a innocent question and thought they had a answer to it. People tend to react very negatively if one doesn’t understand the dating and romantic and sexual world as it is a primarily emotional thing and don’t have to think about it so hard like I and others have to. They also react negatively if they even pick up via non-verbal cues you may be giving off on the fact that you don’t think as they do about such things. I also know now that I asked that question at the worst time as those persons nerves were raw and they were hurting. I didn’t pick up on their hurt either until the damage was done.

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