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My Rational Wiki Entry

Someone mentioned my Rational Wiki entry, which I did not know existed until then. There isn’t much to it and it’s mostly accurate, but this caught my eye:

Brayton and Myers were also the two main founders of the freethoughtblogs.com collective, though Ed and his readers have a long-standing (though very cordial) feud with PZ Myers and his readers.


That’s not really accurate. PZ and I did have a feud for a while, about 5 years ago, and it was unfortunately not cordial at all. I called him names, he called me names, and I really wish it hadn’t happened. It was over our approach to atheism, where I am generally considered more moderate in my tone than he is (though that would come as a surprise to those who see me as a bomb-throwing ideologue). As is so often the case in such disputes, it’s easy to get lost in the fight when it’s in text. Once we met in person, we got along just fine and put all that behind us. It was all kind of silly. We’re going to agree 99% of the time, why fight over the 1%?

Freethought Blogs also has an entry and I found this passage to be quite amusing:

The vlogger Thunderf00t briefly joined Freethought Blogs in summer 2012, but was quickly fired after repeatedly and somewhat incoherently blogging that those pushing for protection for women at atheist/skeptic events were wrong, or overreacting, or whatever. The vocal group of FtB anti-fans gleefully took this as another confirmation that FtB isn’t about free thought at all because something-something-something-evo-psych-something girls are stinky.

Well said!

Comments

  1. Michael Heath says

    As someone whose been reading Ed Brayton’s blog now for about eight years, I’ve got a handful of perspectives on the PZ rift.

    I thought it was a trivial forgettable spat; so I’m surprised it should be part of the historical record now. In spite of my being a regular commenter here now and then, I don’t recall ever posting a comment on that subject. The ideas being argued in Ed’s forum seemed far more imperative than an argument about style or approaches. I recall more arguments posted here about Chris Mooney’s accommodationist approach than Ed’s.

    I do not perceive a current rift in Ed’s readership relative to PZ or his blog. Yeah you’ll get a rare snit or even a legitimate criticism of one or the other, but it’s a minuscule share of the comment posts with hardly any on-going responses. Perhaps it exists at PZ’s site, I wouldn’t know, but I don’t see it here enough to claim it’s an attribute of this forum.

    If I was asked to describe Ed’s blog and readership, I don’t find either topic qualifies as a needed factor to sufficiently describe this forum.

  2. Michael Heath says

    This is posted at that site right now:

    Brayton and Myers were also the two main founders of the freethoughtblogs.com collective, though Ed and his readers have a long-standing (though very cordial) feud with PZ Myers and his readers.

    I think the latter assertion is demonstrably false. I don’t find what PZ and his readers do at PZ’s site even relates to this site.

  3. slc1 says

    Unfortunately, the feud with Mr. Brayton is not the only one that PZ has engaged in. Previous to that, he had a feud with Chris Mooney and more recently has had a feud with Abbie Smith in which he stated that he would veto any suggestion to add her to the Freethought Blogs stable. It would seem that PZ has some tender corns.

  4. andrewjohnston says

    Yeah, I wrote that line when I created the page. It was a few years ago, before FTB, when your readers and PZ’s readers were still picking at each other a little bit. I figured that would be the best way to reflect that the two of you don’t necessarily agree, but that you don’t hate each other, either. When another editor updated the page to reference FTB, I guess he decided to keep my wording.

    It’s one of many pages on that site that needs expanding, actually, and I invite any of you to join in. It’s a free-wheeling community where as long as you have your facts straight, you are not only free to make fun of people but actually encouraged to do so. [/promotion]

  5. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    more recently has had a feud with Abbie Smith in which he stated that he would veto any suggestion to add her to the Freethought Blogs stable.

    Smith has hosted a site in which the most disgusting threats and libels were aimed, obsessively over a period of a year or more, at Rebecca Watson and anyone who spoke up for her. FTB’s Jen McCreight was among their main targets, and was driven to suspend blogging when the attacks spread to her family. If objecting to obsessive misogynist bullying is “having tender corns”, we could do with some more people developing them, just as we could do with fewer advocates of genocide.

    Michael Heath is right: there is no feud with Ed Brayton at Pharyngula; many people comment at both.

  6. says

    PZs issue with Mooney was on issues mostly and I think he was being too rigid because Mooney did have some good ideas. I agree with PZ that religion and science can’t rationally mesh but acceptance of science is a very practical goal even if it results in irrational coexistence with a person’s faith.

    With regards to Abbie Smith though, that was on both ideas AND Abbie’s incredibly vile and immature actions. I don’t think it’s being too sensitive to say that someone who thinks “Twatson” is an appropriate thing to call Rebecca Watson should never be considered for inclusion at FtB (also her support of bullying, cheering on MRAs, and suggesting that other female science students used sex to get into their school, etc).

  7. John Phillips, FCD says

    Nick Gotts, I think you pretty much covered it there. I’m another who visits both sites equally and enjoy both equally though for different reasons as the generally cover different areas, and apart from that disagreement back when I was a relative newcomer to both bloggers, The only time I see mention of Ed’s site, especially by PZ, is when he is commenting on or pointing us to read something Ed has posted.

    noadi, I think PZ’s issues with Mooney was more to do with Mooney trying to tell other atheists that only his way was the right way to communicate with theists while the gnus say that a multitude of approaches are needed. Well that and him being prepared to throw the gnus under the bus whenever convenient and his willingness to believe the worst of fellow atheists on little or no evidence. Google Chris Mooney Tom Johnson.

  8. Johnny Vector says

    I recall thinking, at the time Ed and PZ were feuding, that my dream world would be one where their differences were the differences between the two major-party presidential candidates. Because ultimately I would gleefully have voted for either one.

    IIRC, at that time Ed was still describing himself as a deist, distinct from an atheist. I personally could see no functional difference, which I believe is Ed’s position now.

    Which is to say, Ha! I was right all along! Neener neener!

  9. Sastra says

    I have read both sites since the Stone Age, and the only time I brought up the feud between PZ and Ed was whenever I met PZ in person. I remember how much he always enjoyed listening to me whine about it.

    The vocal group of FtB anti-fans gleefully took this as another confirmation that FtB isn’t about free thought at all because something-something-something-evo-psych-something girls are stinky.

    Well, I do think it would look more professional if RationalWiki put this in quotes, or ascribed this view to the people of FtB. Doesn’t sound like an encyclopedia.

    But, I don’t read it, so I’m probably either missing the general style of the site — or missing the right to criticize.

  10. Rip Steakface says

    @Sastra

    RationalWiki doesn’t attempt to be professional. While Wikipedia attempts to have a neutral point of view, RationalWiki attempts to always have a snarky point of view. Their general style is to inform in a funny manner – they’re like the Jon Stewart of wikis.

  11. says

    Sastra:

    We have a rule that basically says that you are encouraged to be as snarky as you wish as long as it’s a) accurate and b) on-mission.

  12. says

    If accuracy is a goal, it would be nice to note that the anti-FtB whiners have evolutionary psychology on their side about as much as they have astronomy on their side.

  13. magistramarla says

    I came to FTB when Pharyngula did. I had been reading Pharyngula for a while, and I was delighted to find this group of blogs in one place. I’ve become a regular reader of Ed’s blog because of that. I start every day with reading first Pharyngula, then Dispatches from the Culture Wars, then Zingularity, and then a quick skim of all the other blogs on FTB.
    Intelligent people tend to have differences – that’s just part of life. I like to read several angles on a subject before I form my own opinion. That’s the way that intelligent, informed opinions are made. I thank FTB for bringing together these differing opinions.

  14. andrewjohnston says

    @Gretchen: I invite you to check out the RW article on evolutionary psychology. You might find that articles on scholarly topics (even controversial ones or those with woo-loving proponents) are generally less snarky.

    And honestly, if any of you dislike my use of the term “feud,” go ahead and change it. It is a Wiki – you don’t even have to sign up to edit.

  15. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    It would seem that PZ has some tender corns.

    It would seem that scl1 has some tender corns. scl1 is banned from commenting at Pharyngula.

    Also, as pointed out, PZ has damned good reasons to be opposed to allowing Abbie Smith from joining the collective. This is, if Abbie would ever consider joining a group that is so obviously beneath her.

  16. Brownian says

    What the hell would Abbie bring to FTB? I already know how to trivialize rape and spell the word ‘cunt’.

  17. says

    Can some one post links of the time they “feuded” ? Google god has failed me here.

    Much of the feud took place on the Panda’s Thumb email list. The gist of it is that someone (not Ed or PZ originally) was being an asshole, Ed and PZ were on opposite sides of the dispute, and after Ed over-explained himself, PZ started a fuck-you fest.

    As he said, silly.

  18. says

    Area Man, and at the end the music came up, they hugged, and the girl from Small Wonder said “Now I know a little more about what it means to be human”.
    Then Alf tried to eat the cat and everybody cracked up just in time for freeze frame and credits.

  19. says

    slc wrote:

    Previous to that, he had a feud with Chris Mooney and more recently has had a feud with Abbie Smith in which he stated that he would veto any suggestion to add her to the Freethought Blogs stable.

    I’m one who doesn’t think Mooney was nearly as wrong on many issues as a lot of others, including PZ. But I never really got into that feud, as I’ve avoided many other battles, perhaps mainly because I have friends on both sides and all I saw was ugliness. I really like Chris Mooney personally. We’ve spoken at conferences together, been on each other’s podcasts and radio shows and never had anything but a good time.

    As for Abbie Smith, PZ certainly wouldn’t have to veto her (which he can’t do, by the way, and never could; he doesn’t have veto power). The chances of Abbie Smith being added to this network are about equal to the chances of Fred Phelps being added. I would be very surprised if even a single member of the network would vote for her inclusion.

  20. says

    A ha, the culprit! Andrew Johnston! I hope you didn’t take this too seriously. I don’t really care all that much about it. I posted about it mainly to quote the line “something-something-something-evo-psych-something girls are stinky.” Because that’s really funny.

  21. zmidponk says

    I like the way it’s now been corrected:

    Ed and his readers had a brief feud with PZ Myers and his readers some time ago (mainly over framing issues), but the hatchet his long since been buried in some concern troll’s skull.

  22. pocketnerd says

    DEEEEP! RIIIIFTS!!

    … no, I kid. But seriously, this is something a lot of people just don’t seem to get about skeptics: We aren’t a unified tribal entity, and disagreement with your fellows — even passionate or angry disagreement — is not a sin. Closing ranks and presenting a unified front to the Outsider just isn’t how we roll, and I’m okay with that.

    And I’m a little surprised to hear you didn’t know you had a RW entry, Mr. Brayton — somehow I’d always suspected you were one of the more active editors…

  23. slc1 says

    Re Ed Brayton @ #23

    Prof. Myers very definitely said that he would veto any proposal to include Abbie Smith on this site. Perhaps he was exaggerating or was unaware of his powers.

    By the way, some former bloggers over at Scienceblogs, not content to criticize Ms. Smith, went after her dog (e.g. Drugmonkey and Physioprof). According to Jerry Coyne who has actually seen Ms.
    Smith’s dog, he’s quite tame and lovable.

    Re #18

    My corns are quite un-tender. PZ gave me the heave ho for having the temerity to cite his feud with Abbie Smith. So, indeed, he is the one with tender corns.

  24. slc1 says

    Actually, almost all of Ms. Smith’s postsk, since the changeover at Scienceblogs have been on science, so she probably wouldn’t fit in here just on that basis.

  25. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    slc1, I have seen the exchange that got you banned. Abbie Smith had nothing to do with it.

    You are a liar.

  26. Reginald Selkirk says

    Once we met in person, we got along just fine and put all that behind us.

    Well that’s not going to sell any tickets. You should find something new to feud about.
    .
    Seriously, I think you’re doing a great job of running your own blog since the FTB startup. Lots of material, posted regularly. (Even if your clock is off by about 3 minutes. Doesn’t your server run NTP?)

  27. says

    Oh, evo-psych: the other day in class, we were discussing why the urban poor tend to start childbearing at a relatively young age. I said that this was the wrong approach: ie, having children right after puberty is basically standard mammal behavior, and standard human behavior except for reasonably well-off individuals in developed nations after the invention of reliable birth control. So, I maintained, the real question should be why well-off individuals buck the trend and what the differences were. The comeback was that evolutionary psychology was sexist. Which … misses the point entirely.

  28. slc1 says

    Re Janine @ #33

    1. Just for the information of Ms. Janine, Ms. Aquaria has called me a scumbag over at Ed Brayton’s blog. Check out her comment #63, which was far worse then what I called her.

    2. Mr KG, aka Nick Gotts, has called me a genocidal maniac; check his comment at #39. Certainly merited my response.

    3. Indeed, most of the bile in the infamous Myers/Brayton feud came from the PZ camp, just as I stated.

    Apparently, Ms. Janine thinks that I should take the approach of Yeshua of Nazareth, namely, when slapped in the face, thru the other cheek. I prefer the approach of Nikita Khrushchev, namely, when slapped in the face, I don’t turn the other cheek, I knock his block off.

    By the way, PZ’s characterization of Abbie Smith, who, it is my information, he has never met, is at considerable variance with that of Jerry Coyne who has met her and spent a day touring Oklahoma City with her. Actually, I think that PZ and Ms. Smith are very much alike in that they are both fierce advocates who ofter go over the top when writing on their respective blogs and Casper Milquetoast types in person.

  29. Brownian says

    1. Just for the information of Ms. Janine, Ms. Aquaria has called me a scumbag over at Ed Brayton’s blog. Check out her comment #63, which was far worse then what I called her.

    Not a retraction of the clearly untrue statement: PZ gave me the heave ho for having the temerity to cite his feud with Abbie Smith.

    2. Mr KG, aka Nick Gotts, has called me a genocidal maniac; check his comment at #39. Certainly merited my response.

    Not a retraction of the clearly untrue statement: PZ gave me the heave ho for having the temerity to cite his feud with Abbie Smith.

    3. Indeed, most of the bile in the infamous Myers/Brayton feud came from the PZ camp, just as I stated.

    Not a retraction of the clearly untrue statement: PZ gave me the heave ho for having the temerity to cite his feud with Abbie Smith.

    Apparently, Ms. Janine thinks that I should take the approach of Yeshua of Nazareth, namely, when slapped in the face, thru the other cheek. I prefer the approach of Nikita Khrushchev, namely, when slapped in the face, I don’t turn the other cheek, I knock his block off.

    Not a retraction of the clearly untrue statement: PZ gave me the heave ho for having the temerity to cite his feud with Abbie Smith.

    By the way, PZ’s characterization of Abbie Smith, who, it is my information, he has never met, is at considerable variance with that of Jerry Coyne who has met her and spent a day touring Oklahoma City with her. Actually, I think that PZ and Ms. Smith are very much alike in that they are both fierce advocates who ofter go over the top when writing on their respective blogs and Casper Milquetoast types in person.

    Not a retraction of the clearly untrue statement: PZ gave me the heave ho for having the temerity to cite his feud with Abbie Smith.

    slc1 is a dishonest liar.

    Go ahead, liar: knock my block off.

  30. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    1. Just for the information of Ms. Janine, Ms. Aquaria has called me a scumbag over at Ed Brayton’s blog. Check out her comment #63, which was far worse then what I called her.

    I guess I have to point it out to you. Yes, Aquaria used rough language. But it was not based on ethnic background. Unlike you.

    2. Mr KG, aka Nick Gotts, has called me a genocidal maniac; check his comment at #39. Certainly merited my response.

    And he gave his reason. Check his link at #39.

    3. Indeed, most of the bile in the infamous Myers/Brayton feud came from the PZ camp, just as I stated.

    And this means what? Both persons laid this to rest. And there is not really a camp. There was an overlap of readership even before the forming of FtB.

    Apparently, Ms. Janine thinks that I should take the approach of Yeshua of Nazareth, namely, when slapped in the face, thru the other cheek. I prefer the approach of Nikita Khrushchev, namely, when slapped in the face, I don’t turn the other cheek, I knock his block off.

    Apparently, slc1 seems to think that fighting over resolved issues should continue. Funny, because up to this point, I did not say a word about the past feud.

    By the way, PZ’s characterization of Abbie Smith, who, it is my information, he has never met, is at considerable variance with that of Jerry Coyne who has met her and spent a day touring Oklahoma City with her. Actually, I think that PZ and Ms. Smith are very much alike in that they are both fierce advocates who ofter go over the top when writing on their respective blogs and Casper Milquetoast types in person.

    So, no one has any right to criticize Abbie’s creation of the monument and the slymepit unless one were to actual met her. Fine, I am about to drop all opinions of all people I never met.

    One last thing, slc1. None of this hand waving takes away from the fact that you were not banned for referencing Abbie Smith.

    It must feel so good to feel so righteous.

  31. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Previous to that, he had a feud with Chris Mooney

    Over the latter being a dishonest, patronizing, attention-seeking fratricidal maniac

    and more recently has had a feud with Abbie Smith

    Over the latter being a dishonest, patronizing, attention-seeking, sororicidal(?) maniac.

    in which he stated that he would veto any suggestion to add her to the Freethought Blogs stable. It would seem that PZ has some tender corns.

    Almost as tender as Israel’s.

  32. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    PZs issue with Mooney was on issues mostly and I think he was being too rigid because Mooney did have some good ideas.

    My recollection is that Mooney didn’t have any ideas – he was repeatedly invited to give constructive, meaningful suggestions and he just kept repeating “you’re so INTOLERANT and DOGMATIC!” If you call “religious people are just too stupid and weak to survive ever be challenged on anything so we need to lie to them just like they might tell their child that OF COURSE their puppy is in heaven now” an idea, I suppose…

  33. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    1. Just for the information of Ms. Janine, Ms. Aquaria has called me a scumbag over at Ed Brayton’s blog. Check out her comment #63, which was far worse then what I called her.

    Also, I suspect, far truer, because…

    2. Mr KG, aka Nick Gotts, has called me a genocidal maniac

    …insofar as I recall you stating that a proposal to carpet-nuke Iran should be considered on its merits, I believe this is an accurate statement.

  34. slc1 says

    Re Brownian

    Mr. Brownian should read the entire thread on PZ’s blog that was linked to previously. If he does, he will understand that the comments made about Aquaria et al were just the excuse for PZ. The real reason was pointing out his previous feud with Chris Mooney and his subsequent feud with Abbie Smith.

    Re Janine @ #37

    OK Ms. Janine, whose characterization of Ms. Smith should I believe, PZ Myers who has never met her or Jerry Coyne who has? By the way, I have never met her either and very likely wouldn’t know who she was if she walked into a room.

  35. dingojack says

    SLC – I have read the thread, more than once, the only reason I can see for the banhammer was you losing your rag. What was it that set you off, ‘Likudnik’?
    Dingo

  36. says

    I haven’t read the thread but if slc1 was banned for slurring Aquaria– that is rich. Has Aquaria ever succeeded in disagreeing with anyone without calling them a fuckface?

    Not surprising though. One of the first rules of Pharyngulyte logic is that if Pharyngula regulars employ slurs (which is all many of them have in their intellectual arsenal) its OK, because their slurs fuckface, gender traitor, rape culture supporter, etc. are, of course, accurate. Because they say so. So it’s OK for them to use them.

  37. The Cat From Outer Space says

    By the way, PZ’s characterization of Abbie Smith, who, it is my information, he has never met…

    Not that it really makes a difference, but your information, like much that you post, is wrong. PZ has met Abbie Smith…. at least virtually.

    As an aside, Jerry Coyne may have come away from a tour with Abbie Smith with the very best of impressions. That doesn’t change any of the vile, horrible things she wrote about Rebecca Watson (and others), which one can find quite easily on her blog.

  38. dingojack says

    Haddle – do you do book reviews as well? ‘I’ve haven’t actually read this book, but someone liked it, and they’re a doody-head so therefore…’. How creditable. Here’s a link (or you could use the rather messed up one @ #33).

    SLC – what was the headline of this posting again? Was it ‘SLC – Me, Me, Me. I got treated so meeeeeaaaan, WAAAAHHH!!’ – oh no, it wasn’t, how surprising.

    Dingo

  39. slc1 says

    Re Dingo the bingo @ #46

    Actually, I don’t give a flying fuck about being given the heave ho at Prof. Myers’ blog. I seldom commented there anyway, mostly because he gets so many comments that any particular one tends to get lost in the crowd. The only blogs where I comment with any frequency is this one and Jason Rosenhouse’s. By the way, I’m not a member of the Chris Mooney marching and chowder society, although his first two books were quite good and informative. It is my contention that he went off the rails after being brainwashed by Matt Nisbet.

  40. dingojack says

    SLC – ‘Methinks the lady doth protest too much’.
    Dingo
    —–
    PS: Did I say you were a member of ‘the Chris Mooney marching and chowder society’, can you quote the bit where I did ’cause I’m seriously not remembering (or reading) it anywhere.

  41. julian says

    OK Ms. Janine, whose characterization of Ms. Smith should I believe, PZ Myers who has never met her or Jerry Coyne who has?

    Obviously she made a good impression so any following criticism that finds her cruel, hateful or bitter must be wrong.

    You’re still an idiot.

  42. slc1 says

    Re Dingo the bingo @ #48

    The inference of many of the commentors on the Mooney/Myers dust up is that anyone commenting in a manner that appears to favor Mooney is somehow a member of that society. Not at all the case; however IMHO, PZ was far more acerbic on the subject then was Mooney.

    Re #45

    Actually, my recollection is that Ms. Smith referred to Ms. Watson as Rebecca Twatson, which was uncalled for, IMHO, and called her a loser in an exchange with Jen McCreigh. Most of the vileness occurred in the comment section of Ms. Smith’s blog via the commentors. IMHO, Ms. Smith has been neglectful in policing that section of her blog; however, it is my information that she has been told to shape up by the new owners of Scienceblogs and has done so by concentrating on science topics.

  43. julian says

    You’re a lying idiot, too.

    ERV considers the calls by NatGeo to moderate her blog censorious. She feels it’s “Twatson’s” groupies unjustly exploiting the system to shut her down. The Monument, the slympit, the twating, the cunting, all of that has her seal of approval. She wants it and has encouraged it a number of times.

  44. dingojack says

    SLC – ah good I was pretty sure I didn’t say anything like that. An ‘exaggeration‘ on your part perhaps?
    You still haven’t produced any creditable evidence to back-up your claim that you were kicked off Pharyngula for referring to a ‘rift’ between Ed and PZ. The thread itself doesn’t see to back this claim up*, IMHO.
    Dingo
    —–
    * see the link provided in mine #46 to review the thread in question

  45. slc1 says

    Re Julian the schmuck @ #51

    Well, I went over to the ERV blog and went back to posts starting with one on June 26. Every single one, except for a couple on the subject of her dog was on a science topic; nary a mention of Rebecca Watson. Now I didn’t actually read each and every one of them, or any commentary, but it would seem that posts on science topics are unlikely to cite Ms. Watson. However, If Mr. Julian the schmuck has a counter example after June 26, I would have no problem in revising my assessment of the situation. It would appear that, indeed, Ms. Smith has cleaned up her act, at least to the satisfaction of the overlords at National Geographic, who, I suspect warned her that the heave ho was very much an option.

  46. slc1 says

    Re julian @ #54

    Apparently, Mr. julian was unable to find an example of Ms. Smith’s objectionable writings after June 26 so I will accept his surrender.

  47. dingojack says

    SLC – Why that date specifically, no one mentioned it until you did. Is this a little goal-post moving, or is there some method to the madness?
    Dingo
    —–
    BTW the are no mentions on ERV of ‘Rebecca Watson’. Is just me or does anyone else smell the bleach?

  48. slc1 says

    Re Dingojack @ #56

    June 26 was as far back as I cared to go (that was at least 5 pages back), nothing at all special about it. The issue is, has Ms. Smith cleaned up her act. At least since that date, unless someone can cite a counterexample, she has. I suspect that Ms. Smith is no more enamored with Ms. Watson since that date then she was before, she’s just not bringing up the subject anymore.

  49. Bjarni says

    You know, I read both PZ’s site and Ed’s, and the idea of a ‘feud’ seems pretty laughable. I do think I remember something from back in the mists of time, but hey whatever.

    It’s funny how differently thing s work when you get to talk to someone ‘IRL’, and I have a lot of respect for people who can be grown-ups and sort this kind of thing out.

  50. Aratina Cage says

    Pharyngula regulars employ slurs (which is all many of them have in their intellectual arsenal) its OK, because their slurs fuckface, gender traitor, rape culture supporter, etc. are, of course, accurate. –heddle

    Noooo! Really?

    I love watching the attempts to revise history going on between heddle and slc1.

  51. says

    I think of a slur as a term of sheer insult, usually but not necessarily bigoted. So, for example– whore, slut, kike, faggot. Those are slurs.

    “Gender traitor,” on the other hand, is a term that can be evaluated for accuracy. A woman who opposes the right of women to vote, such as was featured here on Dispatches recently, I think can safely and accurately be called a gender traitor.

    “Rape culture supporter” is a little tougher but also entirely possible to use as a substantive label. Those douchebags on Reddit who made jokes about raping the teenage girl who posed a photo of herself with a copy of (I think) The God Delusion? Yes, rape culture supporters. Michael Brutsch, aka ViolentAcrez? Rape culture supporter.

    So complaining about those two “slurs” being used, at least, is missing the point to me. It’s possible to use them accurately. Were they used accurately? If so, then I see no problem.

  52. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    Heddle flounced from Pharyngula because it was full of feminists.

    Funny how he is not missed.

  53. dingojack says

    SLC – oops, seems I pressed ‘submit’ to early in post #58. The rest should read: ‘… since you seem to have enough snark for both of us’.
    Dingo

  54. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    So complaining about those two “slurs” being used, at least, is missing the point to me. It’s possible to use them accurately. Were they used accurately? – Gretchen

    I don’t ever recall seeing “gender traitor” used on Pharyngula; it is certainly not used with any frequency.

    I love watching the attempts to revise history going on between heddle and slc1.

    Indeed: the two Pharyngual-haters on the thread are an advocate of genocide, and a worshipper of a being he believes intends to torture people for ever. That speaks pretty well for Pharyngula.

  55. slc1 says

    Re Nick Gotts @ #65

    I can’t speak for Prof. Heddle but in no way, shape, form, or regard am I a Pharyngula hater. I visit there every day and greatly enjoy Prof. Myers’ rants against creationists and the god botherers. I seldom commented there before being given the heave ho as Prof. Myers generally gets so many comments that any particular one gets lost in the crowd. The only two blogs that I comment with any frequency are this one and Jason Rosenhouse’s.

  56. says

    Janine: Hallucinating Liar says:,

    Heddle flounced from Pharyngula because it was full of feminists.

    Funny how he is not missed.

    Wow, you must Pharyngula’s champion of the repartee. “Funny how he is not missed.” What a brilliant, scathing putdown!

    And of course you are revising history. Pharyngula always had a heavy feminist leaning, as does Dispatches. Regardless, I commented on Pharyngula for years and continue to comment here. I didn’t leave because it was full of feminists, a lie which you are telling, but because a band of astonishingly stupid and odious feminists took over and PZ kowtowed to them. I recall a particularly repulsive scene where one regular commenter, I think it was Morales, said something slightly unorthodox and how he then groveled and accepted some sort of humiliating rehabilitation offer.

    An analogous situation would be to imagine a Christian blog that had a representation, even a majority, of fundamentalists who participated and argued. But then it was taken over by a none-too-bright group of fundie zealots who began e-excommunicating anyone outside their nano-meter diameter circle of orthodoxy. And the blog owner joined in. And they began identifying themselves by oh-so-clever sarcasm tags appended to their names. Yes, I would flounce from that blog too. Not because it was full of fundies, it may always have been, but because it was taken over by jackasses.

    Linking slc1 and me is a typical boneheaded move by the Pharyngulamatons, given that he is arguing that he was booted because of supporting ERV and I am accepting you at your word (always a risky move, of course) that it was for committing slurs.

  57. dingojack says

    No need guess my dear Heddle – you can read it for yourself. I have posted a link to the thread @ #46 or you could use the kind of messed up link @ #33 (I have pointed out this earlier).
    Or do you prefer your ‘sight unseen’ reviewing technique?
    Dingo

  58. says

    slc1,

    I can’t speak for Prof. Heddle but in no way, shape, form, or regard am I a Pharyngula hater.

    See how different we are! While I greatly enjoyed the original Pharyngula and the scuffles that I had there, I do indeed hate the current version.

    DJ

    Asking me to read something that confirms what I am accepting at face value (the slc1 ban was because of slurs) doesn’t carry the same moral high-ground as asking me to read something that refutes my position. Unless you tell me that I will find slc1 used language that was beyond the pale when compared with what the regular Pharyngula horde vomits. If that’s your contention I’ll stop everything and follow your link, just as a matter of interest.

  59. dingojack says

    Heddle – Asking you to inform yourself when you frequently complain of not having read the text is not seeking ‘moral high ground’, well except in the sense that ‘sight unseen’ reviewing seems kinda to be a weak moral position in itself, it’s simply giving you the tools to judge more accurately for yourself (rather than snarkily spreading feces in the hope some sticks).
    Dingo

  60. Michael Heath says

    DingoJack,

    I read the post you linked to at @ 46, along with the link at this blog post which was used by PZ Myers to justify his position. From my very uninformed perspective, i.e., going only with what was blogged about at that those two links, you’re doing a great job of lending credence to heddle’s perspective.

    I doubt I’ll dig in any deeper because I don’t hang-out here to get into junior high-level squabbles but instead argue ideas and policy prescriptions. I’m publishing this comment post here to point out that I think such juvenile behavior by those heddle references makes for a more dysfunctional environment to have the kinds of debates I enjoy.

  61. says

    DJ,

    Sure, because “OK, lets accept your claim at face value” is a well-known sinister approach. Nobody except the vilest of creatures ever employs it. I’m sure you never have.

    Or am I misunderstanding you, and the feces I am spreading is my willingness to accept, sight-unseen, that slc1 was banned for slurring? If you are telling me he was not then I will go read the page.

    It will be hard. I actually tried. But seeing that narcissistic blowhard PZ announce in bold-face that “I will not participate in any conference in which Abbie Smith is a speaker” made me want to puke. (And you can substitute any name for Abbie Smith and I’d feel the same way.)

  62. Michael Heath says

    Please consider this corrected post rather than my previous post; emphasis is correction to clarify:

    I read the post you linked to at @ 46, along with the embedded link at PZ’s blog post which was used by him to justify his position. From my very uninformed perspective, i.e., going only with what was blogged about at that those two links, you’re doing a great job of lending credence to heddle’s perspective.

    I doubt I’ll dig in any deeper because I don’t hang-out here to get into junior high-level squabbles but instead argue ideas and policy prescriptions. I’m publishing this comment post here to point out that I think such juvenile behavior by those heddle references makes for a more dysfunctional environment to have the kinds of debates I enjoy.

  63. dingojack says

    Micheal – really, how so?
    Heddle – Your steadfast refusal to seek out information, rather relying on jibes and slurs speaks volumes.
    Dingo

  64. Michael Heath says

    DJ, adolescent sniping which is then leveraged by some as a way to ostracize others should be ridiculed when it’s done by adolescents. By adults? My goodness do you really need this spelled out? I certainly don’t care enough to do so.

  65. dingojack says

    Adolescent sniping isn’t the issue, the issue was SLC kicked off PZ’s site because he exposed a ‘rift between PZ and Ed’, as he claimed, or because he exploded into a welter* of racial slurs because he was accused of being a supporter of the more right-wing of Israel’s political parties (I’m sure you’d react similarly if I called you a Republican, right?) and less than non-human, or human.
    Which is more creditable? Is SLC ‘exaggerating, as he did when he accused me of saying something that clearly I did not (nor even hint or imply in the least)?
    Dingo
    —–
    * Well OK more of a damp squib

  66. blf says

    Does that mean I am unusual for following both blogs?

    No, I do as well, as do other commentators.

    Fortunately, some of the more immature commentators are only at one blog or another, so you don’t get a double-dose of inanity.
    Unfortunately, some of the more mature commentators are only at one
    blog or another, so you don’t get a double dose of sanity.

  67. baal says

    To the folks slamming slc1, you succeeded in summoning a Heddle. Please consider figuring out how to disagree without that outcome.

    (I’m not on slc1′s side but really think the 5 person tag team slam routine is worse than slc1′s comments in this thread or any other. Intentional marginalizing should be saved for right wing authoritarian theocratic asshats (bachman, geller, patty patty buch buch, evil unkle chuckles (pat robertson), limbaugh, some of the Catholics @ patheos, etc (it’s a really long list of good targets if you feel the need to be excessive). Other folks are entitled to more on the mere basis of their humanity.)

  68. says

    To ERV’s defenders: you’re missing something important here. Abbie was very well respected until she turned on Watson. She wasn’t thrown under the bus — numerous people tried to talk her off the ledge and she responded by doubling down. In fact, she did much the same thing as Thunderf00t did — abused her platform in the defense of ignoring a real problem, and lost a lot of friends and fans in the process.

  69. says

    I don’t ever recall seeing “gender traitor” used on Pharyngula; it is certainly not used with any frequency.

    god damn slime pitters won’t give me credit for my fucking writing. The post about gender traitors was MY POST on MY BLOG and they attribute it to the horde at pharyngula or ophelia benson or whoever they feel like at the moment. It never caught on at FTB.

    I’ve never actually seen any of them express an actual criticism of what I have written either, and that is despite the slime pit sending minions to my blog. They all opted to call me weak or use sexist slurs.

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