Here’s good ol’ Pat Robertson saying that “Satanic” atheists are to blame for the attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin by a white supremacist and former soldier. Hey Pat, here’s news for you: The vast majority of attacks on religious sites are by members of competing religions, including yours.
Aug 08 2012
Robertson Blames Atheists for Sikh Temple Shootings
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Brett McCoy
August 8, 2012 at 12:42 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Not even sure Wade Page was religiously motivated so much as racially and xenophobically motivated … there’s also a new report that the bullet that killed him was from his own weapon, the wound to his head was self-inflicted after he’d been wounded by police.
raven
August 8, 2012 at 12:43 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Oh gee, the Sikh temple massacre is already old news. It happened a few days ago after all.
Someone torched the mosque in Joplin, Missouri yesterday. This is so common, it didn’t really make the national news.
The closest terrorist attack to my house was xian terrorists attempting to burn down the local mosque.
TGAP Dad
August 8, 2012 at 12:53 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Didn’t Pat (must be something about that name…) also blame us for 9/11 and hurricane Katrina? Holt SHIT look at the power we wield! Cower before us, believers!
fifthdentist
August 8, 2012 at 1:02 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
From what I’ve seen, skinheads seem to be more into Norse mythology.
No, the simplest explanation for this shooting is this monster decided to kill people because of what kind of hat they wear.
Welcome to 21st Century America. Might as well make popcorn and enjoy the show, because it’s not going to get any better in our lifetimes.
Randomfactor
August 8, 2012 at 1:04 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
“Satanic atheists”? Guess us ordinary atheists are in the clear, though.
Wonder if he also described the victims as “Satanic.” They’re clearly not Christian…
Bronze Dog
August 8, 2012 at 1:11 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
The funny thing is that I would classify the popular image of Satanists as Christians, at least in the epistemological sense: They probably believe in the same cosmology and supernatural entities as Christians do. The major difference is which side of the alleged supernatural conflict they’re on.
Of course, I’ve seen some Satanists interviewed on TV who, contrary to the popular image, don’t believe any of it and are essentially doing performance art to satirize Christianity and apparently be hipsters about religion.
hunter
August 8, 2012 at 1:27 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I’ve always considered Satan a Christian deity.
laurentweppe
August 8, 2012 at 1:29 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
They’re first and foremost into a mix of incestuous fetichism and cranked up superiority complex. Religious and ideological excuses come later, when they try to give a veneer of legitimacy to their fantasies of an aritocracy of inbred self-proclaimed supermen ruling the world.
mbj1
August 8, 2012 at 1:46 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
…and Saletan over at Slate thinks this is a sign of “progress” for Robertson. No shit: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2012/08/pat_robertson_blames_atheists_for_the_wisconsin_sikh_shooting_is_that_good_for_muslim_christian_peace_.html
Michael Heath
August 8, 2012 at 1:47 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I get a kick out of how Pat Robertson wants to both persecute those who don’t accept this beliefs while also wanting to get sympathy when other religions are persecuted. So if Mr. Robertson burned down a Mosque, would he also simultaneously demand consideration for being the victim of this arson?
fifthdentist
August 8, 2012 at 1:47 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
@ 8, agree. I was just saying when they do bring up religion, it’s usually not Christianity but some kind of warped Norse/paganistic crap.
As far as the atheist/Satanist discussion. I think Christians are more comfortable with the latter. Their thinking seems to be, “well at least that person believes in the same silliness I do.”
d cwilson
August 8, 2012 at 2:00 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
TGAP Dad:
I thought Crazy Uncle Pat blamed 9/11 on witches and lesbians.
Paul W., OM
August 8, 2012 at 2:10 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
mbj1:
Yeah. Wow.
Somehow I doubt it’d seem so much like progress to him if it was any comparably sized and comparably vilified religious group being targeted as the Real Threat—say, the Jews, or the Mormons—rather than irreligious people.
Seriously, just imagine that Robertson was telling people not to kill Sikhs, but to keep their eye on the ball and remember that the Mormons are the real enemy.
raven
August 8, 2012 at 2:13 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Quite a few white supremacists are into christian identity, something to do with Real(TM) xianity being a white religion.
Ed Brayton
August 8, 2012 at 2:15 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Some skinheads are into the Norse mythology stuff, some are Christian.
d cwilson
August 8, 2012 at 2:15 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Nothing promotes tolerance and brotherhood among religions than banding together to attack the atheists.
raven
August 8, 2012 at 2:16 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Christian identity is quite old. IIRC, it started in the UK long ago.
Paul W., OM
August 8, 2012 at 2:28 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I’m curious whether skinheads are more likely to be into Norse mythology than Christianity. I find it hard to imagine.
Consider actual Nazis in Germany. They were overwhelmingly Christian, even if they dabbled with German myths.
I would guess that even most of the ones who were at all serious about German mythology were more or less aware that it was mythology, and symbolic of something else and/or having historical significance useful to them. (E.g. the superiority of German culture being partly due to German myths, even though they weren’t true—in much the same way that some atheists, like me, think that it’s probably not just coincidence that the best things about our culture came out of Greek pagan society, not monotheism.)
My impression is that even most irreligious hardcore fascists like to present Christian culture as being superior to most pagan cultures, to rationalize their “superiority”—anything associated with whiteness is presented as being better than anything associated with other colors.
And the guy in question apparently did try to join the KKK, which is very explicitly a very Christian organization. I don’t know if the KKK necessarily expects its members to actually believe in Christianity, but AIUI they do systematically present white European Christian culture as superior to nonwhite or non-European or non-Christian culture.
You might think Germanic or Nordic cultures are the best because they had a better variety of paganism, but I’d think most hardcore would think that Christianized Germanic or Nordic cultures are much better still—the best cultures evolved via those paganisms to a superior Christianity. (Even most of those don’t believe that mythology anymore either.)
And for many, the Americanized Christianized (ex-)Germanic/Nordic Pagan cultures are the best of all. They’re fucking patriots who want to take their country back from all less evolved peoples/races/cultures.
Paul W., OM
August 8, 2012 at 2:51 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Ed:
Well, sure, but I’d bet that the percentage of actually believing relatively orthodox Christians is at least several times higher than the number of actually believing pagans. (For any chosen level of literalism or basic orthodoxy.)
I’d guess that most American fascists who are “into” Nordic or Germanic mythology are “into” it in much the same way a lot of modern Romans and Greeks are “into” their national mythologies—as deeper and superior forms of myth, linked to cultural superiority, despite not being anything like literally true.
If I had to guess, I’d guess that the percentage of American fascists who believe that Germanic or Nordic Gods are actually existing supernatural persons is in the very low single digits, while the percentage who think the same thing about Jesus or God is in the high double digits. (After all, they’re mostly particularly stupid and/or ignorant, rather poor and poorly educated Americans.)
If I’m wrong, that’d be very interesting.
It’d even be interesting if they were just less Christian than average Americans, rather than more Christian, as you might guess. (If so, I’d guess there’d be more dumbass atheists than literal polytheists.)
busterggi
August 8, 2012 at 3:04 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Someone needs to tell Pat that atheists don’t believe in Satan so we don’t worship him. Only theists worship imaginary beings.
heddle
August 8, 2012 at 5:10 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul W., OM
Yeah, which they cleverly obfuscated with a plan to persecute the Christian church.
Oh, but SS belts stated “Gott mit uns” and Hitler quoted Luther!!!!–this means they must have been True Christians™ and any attempt to argue they they might have been co-opting Christian themes to appease the populace is to be summarily dismissed as a “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
You would think you rational OMs would get over this tiresome assertion or at least look at it critically. Actually I take that back.. you wouldn’t think that.
aziraphale
August 8, 2012 at 6:18 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Heddle:
“Yeah, which they cleverly obfuscated with a plan to persecute the Christian church.”
It’s entirely possible for Christians to persecute other Christians and their churches. History has plenty of examples.
mickwright
August 8, 2012 at 6:58 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Sometimes I wish we *were* guilty of half the shit Robertson claims we are. If only because it’d mean we had superpowers.
Modusoperandi
August 8, 2012 at 7:07 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
It’s all me. I’ve been letting the rest of you take the blame. I’m sorry. Still, I have no plans to cease my evilbelieving, nor will I step up and save you from being scapegoated for my terrible beliefs, on account of my, y’know, being evil. Lastly, moo ha-ha!
heddle
August 8, 2012 at 7:16 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
aziraphale
Fair enough. It is also possible for murderers, tyrants, charlatans and madmen to co-opt Christianity (or other religions, ideologies, and even scientific theories) to advance their own agendas. History has plenty of examples. Even evolution has been co-opted at times to justify heinous actions.
harold
August 8, 2012 at 7:32 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I saw this and knew it would show up here.
Pat Robertson knows that the political party that panders to violent racism and xenophobia is also that political party that panders to his religious authoritarianism.
In order to deny that obvious connection to the public, and very likely, to himself, he indulges in some Orwellian doublethink, blaming the atrocity on “atheists”, when it is unknown whether or not the killer was an atheist, and irrelevant, as well, since atheism is not what motivated him and there is absolutely no general tendency whatsoever for atheists to violently attack Sikhs or any other immigrant or religious group. For full disclosure I am basically an atheist, although not interested in any “movement”.
(Ancient Norse mythology is quite brutal but not racist. There’s no reason why it should be racist. The Norse mainly slaughtered and enslaved each other, or similar-looking groups like the Anglo-Saxons – whose language was usually mutually intelligible with Norse languages – and the Irish. Their period of settlement in North America was fairly late in medieval Norse history, brief, and other than the fact that they didn’t establish a permanent settlement, not much is known about it. Norse cultures were highly individualistic and highly opportunistic by necessity; they didn’t have resources to waste on modern and post-modern ideologies.)
heddle
August 8, 2012 at 7:37 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Bronze Dog #6,
I would say that is probably not true. I am by no means an expert on Satanism, but I think they believe the universe is in a cosmic struggle between good and evil–or in neutral terms between god and satan– and satan might/can win.
Christianity, on the other hand, is not dualistic. There is no cosmic battle between good and evil–that would be grossly asymmetric warfare, given that the bible is clear that satan acts only within the confines of god’s permissive will. Furthermore, from Christianity’s perspective, the atonement and resurrection indicate that the battle, such as it was, is already over and the good guys won. Some of the major schools of eschatology even argue that satan is presently bound, at least metaphorically, in that his influence to deceive the nations is greatly diminished.
So I don’t think Satanism and Christianity take opposite sides in a more-or-less agreed upon universe–their views of the balance of power in the universe could not be more different.
jayarrrr
August 8, 2012 at 11:24 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
“Satanic Atheists”???
Uh, no. Sorry, I don’t believe in Jeebus, I don’t believe in his evil twin brother Santa, either.
williamgeorge
August 8, 2012 at 11:44 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
“Satanic Atheists”
We got PZ. What we need Satan for?
Crudely Wrott
August 9, 2012 at 12:05 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
It now seems to be probable that Wade Page took his own life after being hit by a non-fatal shot to the stomach. There are numerous references to video footage that claim to show him putting his own gun to his own head.
If true, and I see no reason to think it is not given many previous instances, Page’s final act is one more example of the utter cowardice of the small and fearful people who cannot bear to die with any sort of dignity. This despite the asserted dignity they claim inherent in their hatred of anyone not like themselves.
His ignoble death is the chief standard flown by those people who are frightened, literally, to death by the fact that they are not the crown of creation. Religious affiliation notwithstanding, for any professed faith will do, these proponents of superiority have neither the strength nor the dedication to stand up and take responsibility for their frenetic final acts.
It’s enough to make one wish that there was a literal hell for such poor (failed, inept, useless, atrophied, terrified) in which such souls would spend eternity reliving their own poor last moment.
Badbye, Mr. Page. I see you never.
Crudely Wrott
August 9, 2012 at 12:10 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Edit, penultimate paragraph:
*preview is a fickle friend*
dingojack
August 9, 2012 at 2:10 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Crudely Wrott – no doubt those that agree with Mr Page will be thinking along the lines of the ‘noble Goth who would rather die than be captured’ mythos (ironically the Japanese thought like this too), rather than ‘suicide is cowardly, (sacrilegious – since it usurps god’s fun in killing weaker creatures) and a way of shirking responsibilities’.
Dingo
Noadi
August 9, 2012 at 4:28 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Oh for fuck’s sake, will people stop trying to label those who commit suicide as cowards? Okay, I get that when someone does something this evil that there’s an urge to dehumanize them but this is not the way to do it.
Why? Because when one of my friends killed himself I had to put up with people telling me he was selfish and a coward. It is a meme that needs to die a well deserved death. I won’t shed any tears for Page but just seeing the judgement that suicide is cowardly brought back a lot of pain and it’s been almost 10 years.
(Let’s leave out the double standard that if someone is fighting a battle we support killing themselves rather than being captured would be celebrated and not considered being a coward.)
Crudely Wrott
August 9, 2012 at 5:37 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Dingo wrote:
Of course they will. For the same reason that they think that Hitler is a hero.
.
Noadi, my heart goes out to yours. I’m sure your friend did not create a situation in any way similar to what Page created. I, too, have had a dear one end their own life. That was forty years ago and to this day I am left without closure.
Still, there is a pattern among those who leave a sudden trail of mayhem at the end of their lives that kills innocents and bystanders and who then evade any and all consequences by firing one last shot. To me, that whole scenario is cowardice. Not just the final act.
To act so callously against humanity and human justice just screams of fear and trembling and an inability to stand up for ones own actions. Perhaps cowardice is not a precise description, but any more precise description would still have no resemblance to courage, It would only be a poor and shabby descriptor of terrified fatalism which is the hallmark of extreme prejudice.
blf
August 9, 2012 at 7:41 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I don’t think — but have no evidence one way or the other — that it’s Norse mythology that some nutters are into as much as hijacking what they think are Olde Norse Symbols/Runes/whatever… Why they hijack, and how much of what is hijacked is even vaguely genuine (or used/interpreted in any manner close to the original Norse intent) is not known to me. I speculate this Norse hijacking is partly because the nutters perceive Norse-stuff as being a genuine all-“white” society that liked to slaughter, kill, and enslave everyone else (who must be “lessor”). Pretty much complete bullshite, of course, along with wearing horned helmets in battle and the like, but such comicbooks-view of that society and those times is very possibly attractive to nutters who think there is such a thing as race or that it matters.
KG
August 9, 2012 at 8:03 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
And it worked pretty well, didn’t it? The vast majority of those who voted Nazi, and of those who did the actual dirty work of persecution and aggressive war, were self-identified Christians.
Prominent among those “Christian themes”, of course, was antisemitism. Hitler drew extensively on the highly antisemitic Austro-German Catholic nationalist movement in his early building of the Nazi Party (see Derek Hastings Catholicism and the Roots of Nazism), although he was later hostile to the Catholic Church, as he was to any rival centre of influence. After the failure of the Beer Hall Putsch, he reoriented the party to appeal more to Lutherans – Luther being the author of On the Jews and their Lies, in which he recommended many of the antisemitic measures the Nazis took before they went as far as genocide. The Catholic Centre Party gave Hitler the majority he needed in the Reichstag for the Enabling Act which established him as dictator, the Pope signed a concordat with him, the majority of both Catholic and Lutheran hierarchies in Germany were his supporters (there were honourable exceptions), and neither Church ever called for resistance to his rule.
As far as Wade Michael Page is concerned, I have seen nothing about his religious beliefs or lack of them. His primary identification was with the self-styled Hammerskin Nation, and he appears to have arrived at his race hate obsession and neo-Nazism while in the US army, specifically at Fort Bragg, which was a hotbed of neo-Nazism at the time.
Ichthyic
August 9, 2012 at 10:04 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Oh, but SS belts stated “Gott mit uns” and Hitler quoted Luther!!!!–this means they must have been True Christians™ and any attempt to argue they they might have been co-opting Christian themes to appease the populace is to be summarily dismissed as a “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
and Heddle is a MASTER of that particular fallacy.
Ichthyic
August 9, 2012 at 10:10 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Heddle… you’re a simplistic isolated bastard with no real concept of history and no ability to think outside of yourself.
proof:
Christianity, on the other hand, is not dualistic.
which, of course, is absolute bullshit.
it carried the dualistic torch for millenia.
the VAST VAST bulk of christians still belong to sects that preach of the battle for “men’s souls”.
so, again, STOP PROJECTING.
all you appear to be able to do is speak from that tiny room in the basement you have lived in for most of your life, apparently.
it’s beyond pathetic.
kermit.
August 9, 2012 at 11:11 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Crudely Wrott, I share your disdain for Wade but I really have a hard time seeing violent suicides as cowards. Other than your contempt for cowardice and these people, do you have any evidence to back this up?
I see Muslim terrorists, anti-abortion rights terrorists, jilted boyfriends mass killer-suicides, racist mass-killers, and anarchist mass-killers as driven by violence and hatred, not fear.
The 9/11 killers, Timothy McVeigh, the Norwegian, and Wade expressed hatred. I really see no fear there, however.
Heddle, I suspect that Hitler was not actually a Christian, but if he was faking it it was because he knew that Christianity would not prevent most Germans and Austrians from following him or at least allowing him to act.
I grew up Southern Baptist, and I assure you that they saw the universe (i.e. Earth) as an epic battle between good and evil (but the ultimate victory of good was certain).
I’m under the impression that most Satanists are either doing a sort of performance art to counteract Christianity’s detrimental social effects, or angsty teens pretending that life is a heavy metal poster. Well, or cannibals. But there wouldn’t be Satanism of any form without Christianity.
Ichthyic
August 9, 2012 at 11:40 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Other than your contempt for cowardice and these people, do you have any evidence to back this up?
you’re looking at the definition of cowardice differently.
people who claim suicide is a coward’s way are talking about those who do so to avoid responsibility.
I have no idea if that was the aim or intent of this person who evidently did shoot himself, but I do believe that is the reasoning used behind labeling an act of suicide “cowardice”.
as in: the shooter was too cowardly to face up to bearing responsibility for his actions under the accepted rules of society.
not all suicides are cowardly, but I do understand those who use the label in cases where someone is using it as an escape mechanism.
Ichthyic
August 9, 2012 at 11:42 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
as an epic battle between good and evil (but the ultimate victory of good was certain).
meaning whoever “wins” = good.
heddle
August 9, 2012 at 12:53 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
kermit.
I suspect as you do–but of course there is no way to know. What I do know is that he was not a Christian simply because he called himself one, quote Luther, and occasionally used the trappings of Christianity.
It is true that many Protestant fundamentalists describe things as a battle between good and evil. But as you say, even they acknowledge the ultimate outcome is predestined. In my experience when they use this language (and I have heard it as well) it is designed to browbeat the congregation to “stop sinning” — not as a cosmology. That is, it is really about dualism at the man-satan level, not the god-satan level.
Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Reformers (and hence all the denominations that call themselves “reformed”) have in their dogma or confessions statements that are specifically non-dualistic. The Westminster Confession, for example, states that God ordains everything that comes to pass. It leaves zero room for anything to happen that god didn’t want, and satan did.
The notion of a cosmic dualism–that god is fighting satan as relative equals, and that the outcome is uncertain, is completely absent from the bible and from any major systematic theology–RCC, Reformed or Dispensational. The only dualism you find in Christian theology is, as mentioned, on a personal level–that people (not god) are in spiritual warfare with satan/demons. Even then most fundamentalists, if they are not of the three rows of buck teeth variety, will acknowledge what is made explicit in Job and in Jesus’ foretelling of Peter’s denial– that satan is only operating with god’s permission.
Nowhere in any of the great systematic theologies (or in the bible) is there any mention that satan is fighting for the souls of men (what would he do with them?) Rather his goal would appear to be to make believers (he doesn’t seem to care about unbelievers) curse god–i.e. he attempts to pervert man’s created purpose, which was not to curse god but glorify god.
KG,
Nobody denies that Hitler drew upon Christianity’s (and Luther’s) reprehensible history of anti-Semitism.
KG
August 9, 2012 at 1:06 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Actually, I think quite a lot of people do, or at least fail to acknowledge it, just as many on the left (as I am) fail to acknowledge the popularity of eugenics, racism and antisemitism on the pre-Nazi left; but that wasn’t my main point. It was that Nazism and Nazi crimes were not the sole responsibility of Hitler and the leaders of the party: those crimes were carried out, often with great enthusiasm, by millions of people, most of whom were Christians. And it wasn’t, at that stage, merely a history of antisemitism: that was still being inculcated by church leaders, particularly Catholics.
heddle
August 9, 2012 at 1:52 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
KG,
Point taken–although as always it is more accurate to say most of whom self-identified as Christians. There is no way to know how many were merely cultural or tribal Christians. But certainly it is inescapable that Christianity deserves an unforgivable share of the blame.
Michael Heath
August 9, 2012 at 5:00 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
heddle writes:
I can’t speak for the Catholic Germans who either supported or enabled Naziism, but the protestant German sects were filled with right wing authoritarians and were no mere cultural Christians, but committed devout Christians, with many of them now living over here and influential actors in merging conservatism with Christianity and mutating the former to a politically active religious movement.
Southern conservatives found a natural ally with German-American protestant immigrants in the Northern states as the southerners migrated towards the GOP over the past several decades. The mind-set is exactly the same along with those who supported or enabled the rise of Naziism, right wing authoritarian. I grew up in this climate and was horrified at their beliefs even prior to turning 10 coming from these post-WWII immigrants.
In 2009 one church with these members was passing around a viral email claiming President Obama was a Mulsim covert agent of al Qaeda we needed to take out (read ‘assassinate’). In fact they were amazed the public was so spiritually blind he hadn’t been impeached – and this was mere weeks after the inauguration! They’re still promoting the claim President Obama is a Muslim where Mr. Romney’s Mormonism is merely the lesser evil. [I've long predicted conservative Christians will turn out for Romney, I never bought they wouldn't, their hatred for an uppity black non-conservative far outweighs voting for a flip-flopping cultist.]
My horror with this group of Christians came early thanks to my public school education; where even my elementary history classes were already focusing on WWII and defining the attributes of Naziism, which were equivalent to what we observe here in conservative Christians and what I observed in extended family gatherings and when visting – attending their German-language Baptist churches. They’re just not as far down the slippery slope. However the desire for a ‘strong man’ (e.g., their initial appeal for Sarah Palin), the blind subservience to the tribe, the fundamentalist zeal and denial/avoidance of inconvenient facts are all identical.
Bob Altemeyer covers this well in his must read The Authoritarians in terms of the psychology of the right wing authoritarians that leads to Naziism and here, the religious right.
heddle
August 9, 2012 at 5:24 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Michael Heath,
Sure, since you say so. What was I thinking? I should have just asked you. I knew you can look back, oh, 80 years into the hearts of man to discern their level of commitmant-but it slipped my mind. I’m too distracted trying to get students into the classes they need as the semester is about to begin–that’s my excuse for forgetting.
Could you also tell us, to your usual three or four significant digits, and this should be easier, what percentage of Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland are committed as opposed to tribal Christians? I hear tell that many street fights begin with the orange thugs inciting Catholics with assertions that “It is a forensic justification, and by faith alone!”
Michael Heath
August 9, 2012 at 7:24 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
heddle writes:
I’m not sufficiently literate on the history of troubles in Ireland to weigh-in though cognizant enough to know that unlike Germany protestants, a large swath of them on both sides are merely cultural Christians as opposed to devout. I do keep up on German protestant demographics here in the states because it’s, unfortunately, part of my heritage, occasionally suffered through it in my youth, and see their power demonstrated in the voting booths and churches. I noted earlier I don’t claim to know how Naziism played out with German Catholics.
Your ‘no true Scotsman’ argument continues to ring hollow given how anyone who cares to even casually inform themselves knows what I report here is well understood by the experts who study such stuff; which shows up in voting patterns, surveys like those conducted by Pew, Gallup, and studies done by academia. I cited Altemeyer’s Authoritarians as a start regarding these groups’ mindset, there are dozens of books that also zone in on the effects illustrated by leaders like Francis Schaffer, Tim LaHaye, Cal Thomas, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, the Dutch Reformed members in SW Michigan, etc. and the political merging of fundamentalist/evangelical religion and conservative political ideology. Chris Mooney’s newest book zones in on the most recent findings of conservatives in general, including those who are devout Christians. Ed makes a living providing anecdotal stories which illustrate this type of Christian behavior in the public square where unfortunately for all us, these people are not outliers but representative of their tribe.