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Aug 07 2012

Worldnutdaily Upset With Fox News Host

It seems another Fox News host has stepped off the reservation and said something the wingnuts don’t like. They don’t like it because it’s true, of course, but they’re making lots of absurd and inconsistent arguments against what she said anyway. Here’s what Megyn Kelly said during an interview on anti-gay discrimination with Robert Jeffress of the Southern Baptist Convention:

“This country has a long history of discrimination against certain groups. Eventually we wind up getting it right. Right? Against women, against blacks, the civil rights movement and so on. And in justifying that discrimination when it was in place, some folks turn to the Bible and turn to their religious beliefs and said we have to have slavery because it’s in the Bible. Women have to be second-class citizens because that’s in the Bible. Blacks and whites can’t get married because that’s in the Bible. That wound up in a case. A judge wrote that in an opinion, which the Supreme Court ultimately struck that down, saying that’s not right, judge, because of the equal rights clause. What’s the difference with gay marriage?”

All of that is true, of course. Every single civil rights advance in this nation’s history has been strongly opposed by Christian conservatives and in every case they cited the Bible in support of that opposition. Now here come the absurd arguments:

While Jeffress answered the question, he did not address the premise: The Bible nowhere suggests blacks and whites cannot get married. In fact, there are examples of blacks and whites marrying in the Bible – from Abraham to Solomon. It is believed that Abraham’s wife, Jokshan was black because she gave birth to Sheba, who was the mother to Ethiopia. Among Solomon’s 700 wives were some from far-off lands in Africa as well.

Well isn’t that convenient? When you point out that Solomon had 700 wives and God never bothered to condemn him for it, thus showing that God was okay with polygamy, Farah would no doubt be quite upset with you and say, “The Bible only shows that polygamy exists, not that God thought it was okay!” But here he argues that the mere fact that there were interracial marriages in the Bible shows that God thought it was okay. Heads he wins, tails rationality loses.

But he’s just getting started.

“To say that Leviticus justified slavery as it is known today in many countries of the world, including some ruled by kings who Obama bows before, is an absurdity,” Farah wrote. “In fact, all of the passages of Leviticus dealing with slavery place rather strict limits on it. Slavery among the children of Israel meant something entirely different from what it means in the Islamic world today or what it meant in America in the 18th and 19th century. Life as a slave in ancient Israel was far better than life today in North Korea or many other Communist societies where citizens are slaves to the state. Leviticus recognized slaves as human beings with rights, not mere chattel. Slavery was designed to pay a debt. It was more akin to indentured servitude. Once the debt was paid, the person was free. This was not the case in Egypt or the rest of the world at the time of Moses.”

He’s lying, of course. The Bible has two different types of slavery. Yes, there were slaves who were bondservants paying off a debt. That applied to their fellow Israelites. And then there were real slaves, which God commands them to take “from the nations around you.” Those slaves were not freed once a debt was paid, they were handed down from generation to generation as property. And the rules for those slaves were almost non-existent. The only thing the owner could not do to them was kill them, but they could beat them to within an inch of their lives and that was fine. All of this is prescribed directly from God, according to the Old Testament.\

Update: The Worldnutdaily has pulled the article and issued an apology to Kelly:

On further examination, it’s clear that Ms. Kelly wasn’t representing such views as being her own, but was summarizing the views of others – including a Virginia judge – who in the past have cited the Bible in their attempts to justify slavery, the subjugation of women and the prohibition of interracial marriage.

WND sincerely apologizes to Ms. Kelly and has deleted the article from our archives. We also thank the many readers who took the time to point out the problems with the article.

But that doesn’t change the outlet’s absurd and irrational reaction to those claims, which remain quite false.

51 comments

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  1. 1
    Alareth

    OT, but worth pointing out.

    A Louisiana public school is forcing female student to take pregnancy tests and expelling any girl that is found to be pregnant or refuses to take the test.

    http://www.aclu.org/blog/reproductive-freedom-womens-rights/get-tested-or-get-out-school-forces-pregnancy-tests-girls

  2. 2
    matty1

    Slavery it seems to me has three components.

    1 – The work is not renumerated
    2 – The work is compulsory with no way out
    3 – The worker is regarded as property

    Having done plenty of volunteering I don’t see 1 on its own as a problem, although you should watch very carefully to see it is entirely voluntary.

    2 I will grant you is still far too common around the world, though and I would guess is what he means by there still being slavery. 3 as far as I know is no longer the legal position anywhere.

  3. 3
    davemabus

    5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet

    http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3

    add some comment moderation to your BS

  4. 4
    Christoph Burschka

    To say that Leviticus justified slavery as it is known today in many countries of the world, including some ruled by kings who Obama bows before, is an absurdity,” Farah wrote. “In fact, all of the passages of Leviticus dealing with slavery place rather strict limits on it.

    Unless these strict limits were “no slavery, ever”, then yes, those laws justified slavery.

  5. 5
    jws1

    I thought this “mabus” guy was gone…

  6. 6
    jws1

    …and by “gone” I mean “no longer present here”, not “crazy”.

  7. 7
    matty1

    @3add some comment moderation to your BS

    Yes, please do especially our old friend, who I thought was banned from “participating in a social network, blog and discussion forum.”

  8. 8
    TCC

    Somewhat hilariously, they haven’t even gotten basic facts right about what the Bible says: Jokshan is not mentioned as the wife of Abraham but rather the son of Abraham (by Keturah), who is mentioned as the father of Sheba (although whether or not this is the same Sheba is contested).

    At any rate, I don’t believe that the argument against interracial marriage was made by the trial judge explicitly on the basis of the Bible, but it certainly invoked the notion of God separating the races:

    Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.

    Christians are perfectly within their right to note that the Bible doesn’t explicitly condemn interracial marriage, in my opinion, but they should at least recognize that Christians did historically make religious arguments against it.

  9. 9
    TCC

    (That was the trial judge in the Loving v. Virginia case, in case I wasn’t clear enough.)

  10. 10
    lofgren

    2 – The work is compulsory with no way out

    This seems perfectly sufficient to define slavery, and I believe that is the position of the supreme court as well.

  11. 11
    eric

    Slavery is also supported in the NT. Philemon, the shortest book in the bible, is a letter from Paul to a Christian bishop and slave owner (Philemon), saying, basically: I converted your escaped slave Onesimus. I’m sending him back to you, but be nice to him, he’s Christian now.

    Not “WTF are you doing owning a slave?” Not “we christians don’t keep slaves.” Not “I converted him so he’s not a slave any more.” Not even “I converted him and I’m letting him stay here.” No, its I’m sending him back to you, his owner, but I request that you treat him better because he’s Christian.

  12. 12
    Mr Ed

    #10

    2 – The work is compulsory with no way out

    This seems perfectly sufficient to define slavery, and I believe that is the position of the supreme court as well.

    This could describe military service especially the draft.

  13. 13
    UnknownEric the Apostate

    Loving v. Virginia case

    Wow, I knew it was one of ABC’s less-popular soaps, but the whole state of Virginia was against it?

  14. 14
    lofgren

    This could describe military service especially the draft.

    True. Just one more of a number of ways we allow the state exceptions from laws that govern private entities. For example, it’s illegal to imprison people for not paying their debts, unless you are the government. It’s illegal to storm somebody’s house with a SWAT team, unless you are the government, etc. It’s illegal to drop an atomic bomb on a civilian center, unless you are the government. We vest the state with specific authorities that violate standard laws regarding private entities precisely because they are the state. (And theoretically, WE are also the state, being a democracy and all.)

  15. 15
    Alverant

    I’m not going to go to the WND page, but the way I read it she didn’t say the bible justified slavery, but other people used the bible to justify slavery. Why is it too much to ask they actually have a degree of reading comprehension before they fly off the handle?

  16. 16
    Ben P

    Slavery it seems to me has three components.

    1 – The work is not renumerated
    2 – The work is compulsory with no way out
    3 – The worker is regarded as property

    Having done plenty of volunteering I don’t see 1 on its own as a problem, although you should watch very carefully to see it is entirely voluntary.

    2 I will grant you is still far too common around the world, though and I would guess is what he means by there still being slavery. 3 as far as I know is no longer the legal position anywhere.

    I suppose it’s worth pointing out that the idea of “slavery” was far from monolithic.

    Most of the “worst” iterations of slavery (if there is such a thing) have all three of those characteristics. The slavery practiced in America and even worse in the Carribbean and South America had all three of those.

    Slavery in Europe and Asia varied as well but some kinds distinctly lacked element #3.

    Slaves and serfs were typically expected to work without compensation, but some societies imposed a duty on the “master” to see that the slaves were properly cared for, others, such as in Russia had no such duty. Serfs were bound to the land of a particular lord and expected to work as compensation for occupying that land, but the noble owed them no particular duty.

    In most cases slaves or serfs weren’t free to leave, but for the most part they were tied to the land rather than an individual, and couldn’t easily be sold. (that’s not to say it didn’t happen sometimes).

  17. 17
    YankeeCynic

    The honest truth is that folks that are drawn to the kind of vile ideology that WND promotes aren’t REALLY all that interested in what the bible has to say. They’ve already made their minds up on important social and political issues, then selectively drag the bible into it because they lack compelling evidence for their arguments.

    A closer reading of the book they profess to love so much would likely do two things.

    1) Induce them to finally let the last mental blocks fall away and truly embrace the vile ideas that are lurking behind their beliefs.

    2) Actually start to re-examine their own positions.

    Both outcomes are unlikely, but I would imagine you would see more from #1 than #2, sadly.

  18. 18
    wscott

    Every single civil rights advance in this nation’s history has been strongly opposed by Christian conservatives and in every case they cited the Bible in support of that opposition.

    True, but only half the story. There were also Christians supporting those advances, backed up by their own Bible quotes. To me, this is even more damning to Christianity (as opposed to Christians): if your infallible sacred moral code can be used to sincerely argue both sides of every significant moral issue of the last century, then what the hell good is it?

    @ UnknownEric 13:

    This could describe military service especially the draft.

    In a draft (at least the modern version) there is usually a way out, ie – a pre-defined limited term of service. (Plus, you know, staying alive.) Back in days of old when you were pressed into the Foreign Legion until death do you part, you could argue that qualified as slavery.

  19. 19
    d cwilson

    Why is it too much to ask they actually have a degree of reading comprehension before they fly off the handle?

    It’s World Nut Daily. I thought the answer to that quesion was self-evident.

  20. 20
    davemabus

    5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet

    http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3

    add some comment moderation to your BS

    do it now!

  21. 21
    davemabus

    do a search for “ed brayton” on ytube… we left you a PERMANENT SOUVERNIR

  22. 22
    YankeeCynic

    Hey Dave, just a heads up. Nobody is going to bother checking out your links because you’re a mouth-breathing ninny who wasn’t providing anything worth looking at BEFORE your nice little court-ordered sojourn. We’re hardly going to waste our valuable time with it now, because I doubt it has gotten any better.

    At a minimum, at least learn how to punctuate your damn posts already.

  23. 23
    davemabus

    5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet

    http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3

    add some comment moderation to your BS

    at least we are going to make things difficult for you

  24. 24
    davemabus

    brayton we all know that you are a *mental case* and we predict you will commit suicide

    5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet

    http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3

    add some comment moderation to your BS

  25. 25
    jws1

    You’re making things difficult for yourself; the more you talk, the less reasonable you sound. And this is from a person who just heard of you very recently. If your points and conclusions are truly “fair”, in the Platonic sense, then you wouldn’t feel compelled to be nasty.

  26. 26
    Ed Brayton

    I have a feeling that Dave Mabus/Dennis Markuze will be back in custody soon, since he is clearly in violation of the terms of his probation. The hundreds and hundreds of messages he is now leaving all over the place, something he is forbidden to do, are all being forwarded to the Montreal police. This time maybe they’ll do more than just let him say “I won’t do it again.” It’s time for him to go away for a good long time.

  27. 27
    Alareth

    Tim Farley has been documenting his probation violations and forwarding them to the prosecutor in his case but it seems they are being very lackadaisical in doing anything about it.

  28. 28
    busterggi

    According to multiple sources Jokshan was Abraham’s son, not his wife and he was supposedly the father of Sheba.

    Now tradition (aka legend) says Sheba was from Ethiopia but there is no evidence that Sheba was a real person or kingdom in ancient Ethiopia, maybe in Yemen but not Ethiopia.

    So we have one possibly fictional character who, if she did exist was Semitic, not black.

    These ‘bible experts’ who are believers really should learn something about their book.

  29. 29
    davemabus

    5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet

    http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3

    add some comment moderation to your BS, BRAYTON

  30. 30
    davemabus

    do it now, sh*thead

  31. 31
    davemabus

    I am going to explain to you something, BRAYTON

    you need PROOF for what we are going to do to you…

  32. 32
    Hairy Chris, blah blah blah etc

    Self censorship? Cute.

    Dude, get off the net as you’re only making things worse for yourself.

  33. 33
    YankeeCynic

    Amusing. The comments about Ed’s supposed mental health issues are almost pure, weapons-grade projection. Rare you get to see that in its condensed form.

  34. 34
    YankeeCynic

    Oh, and this article in response might be useful for future reference:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_key

  35. 35
    MikeMa

    From the recent and increasing number of mabus droppings on this and other threads, I have to assume he is off his meds were there any given him or he reached some threshold beyond which he couldn’t prevent the relapse. Parole is a tough thing and he’s failed.

  36. 36
    netamigo

    Religious folk reject the Bible when they don’t like what it says and accept the Bible when they like what it says. They can wave their arms all they want trying to interpret away what they do not like. However, they reject such passages.

  37. 37
    Michael Heath

    If biblically inerrantist Christians are going to argue gay marriage should be illegal because the Bible claims marriage is between a man and a woman, than for intellectual honesty’s sake they must also concede that God promotes slavery. And that this promotion of slavery survives after the New Covenant. So why are these types of Christians not arguing for slavery consistent with the Bible given their leverage of the Bible to justify their immoral bigotry against gay people and their families?

    In fact the biblical case for slavery is not merely compelling, but in fact convincing, while the case against gays is at best dubious. The supposed word of God by a supposed god who is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient has those who believe this conceding that this god has the power to inform us of his intentions. Therefore there was nothing to stop God from demanding the equal protection of rights by due process for all in the Bible; yet on the topic of slavery we either have God commanding the use of slavery and even in the New Testament, commanding prescriptions on administrating the use of slavery, with no explicit contra commands.

  38. 38
    Modusoperandi

    It is believed that Abraham’s wife, Jokshan was black because she gave birth to Sheba, who was the mother to Ethiopia.

    Which will come as quite a shock to Ethiopia.

    Alareth “A Louisiana public school is forcing female student to take pregnancy tests and expelling any girl that is found to be pregnant or refuses to take the test.”
    Small Government® in action.

  39. 39
    davemabus

    all your LIES ADDED UP!

    5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet

    http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3

    keep that comment moderation on. Thanks!

  40. 40
    reverendrodney

    Alareth:
    “A Louisiana public school is forcing female student to take pregnancy tests and expelling any girl that is found to be pregnant or refuses to take the test.”

    I read the article. It is nice to know that charter schools are held accountable.

    But I wonder if it occurred to anybody on that school board to test for paternity while they’re at it. Probably not. Boys will be boys.

  41. 41
    Paul W.

    davemabus:

    you need PROOF for what we are going to do to you…

    What are you going to do to Ed Brayton, Dave?

  42. 42
    abb3w

    …WND’s URL calls the apology a “correction”.

    Have they ever issued a correction before?

  43. 43
    dingojack

    abb3w – being WhirledNutsDaily means never having to say sorry.
    ;) Dingo

  44. 44
    stace

    Wow this Dave Mabus guy is a persistent little thread-shitting mofo, isn’t he?

  45. 45
    frrolfe

    hi guys,
    OT but why, why, why does it always have to be a comic who rips the crap out of romney and the right wing tards? why do “liberals” feel that its beneath them to fight fire with fire? why didnt michael moore get any support from all you so soi disant progressives? pearl clutching and faint couches 1, 2, 3
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/07/parody-video-im-a-romney-girl-in-a-romney-world/

  46. 46
    kermit.

    davemabus, surely you have had a doctor assigned to you. Please call him or her. There will be more repercussions this time around. Chill.

  47. 47
    democommie

    Reading a thread filled Mabusolites is like playing hopscotch in a pasture; having to always be on the lookout for shitpiles.

    frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrolfe:

    WTF are you even talking about?

  48. 48
    Outrage Zombie

    Regarding the “bondsman” form of slavery for Israelites — doesn’t that just apply to men who were sold into slavery?

    The only mention of female slave rules I can remember off the top of my head is the one where the father may sell his daughter to another man to be his concubine, and she is only released if she doesn’t please him, in which case she is sent home (presumably unmarriageable, since non-virgin brides were supposed to be stoned).

    And the passage that talks about how if a slave’s contract is up, the owner gets to keep his wife and kids if he was the one who granted the wife, and if the kids were had during the duration of that contract. There’s no mention of whether the slave would be able arrange to wait however long it took for his wife’s contract to end, only that if he wants to stay with his family, he has to enter into permanent slavery.

  49. 49
    Ichthyic

    Wow this Dave Mabus guy is a persistent little thread-shitting mofo, isn’t he?

    you mean, you don’t know?

    David Mabus (real name: Dennis Markuze), is bloody famous!

    http://skeptools.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/case-study-notorious-spammer-brought-down-twitter-tumblr-social-media-mabus/

    and has substance abuse problems, probably bipolar disorder, and toss in a side of some random other personality disorders besides.

    sad case.

    It makes me wonder about the quality of mental health care in Canada, that he never apparently got the treatment he so desperately needs.

  50. 50
    Ichthyic

    @frrolfe:

    why, why, why

    …won’t you stop your inane whinges?

  51. 51
    Modusoperandi

    Ichthyic “It makes me wonder about the quality of mental health care in Canada, that he never apparently got the treatment he so desperately needs.”
    Canadian healthcare takes twice as long, because it has to be delivered in both official languages. [pause] Les services medicaux canadiens prennent…

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