I wrote the other day about a messianic Jew who wrote some highly stupid things to Mikey Weinstein, who told him in blunt language to have coital relations with himself and stop bothering him. So that guy, Menachem Mevashir, decided he would write to me too. In his first email he quoted JD’s comment on that post:
Interesting decision to include the text of only one side of the email, while casually dismissing the vitriol of Weinstein’s.
Ah yes, good old-fashioned tone trolling. I don’t give two shits about profanity, or rudeness for that matter. Mikey treated Mevashir exactly as he deserves to be treated, as an idiot. But ZOMG, he used bad words! At the end of his email, Mevashir wrote:
I do consider myself a Christian. I attend church and use the term “Messianic Jew” when dialoguing with non-believing Jews. I am a Jew who believes in the Messiah. Simple. Attaching my Christian testimonial if you are interested to read it.
I’m not. Not in the slightest. I don’t care how you became a moron, I only care that you are one. So I replied:
I have seen all of Mikey’s remarks and, quite frankly, I don’t give a fuck. I’m not offended by profanity in the least. I’m offended by stupidity and authoritarianism, which you show in spades (and so does JD, who is a first class fucking asshole if ever I’ve seen one). If this offends you, I don’t care.
He replied again:
Hey Ed,
I finally see that the “Mr Ed” TV show concept was correct. A talking horse. And I always thought it was just trick photography.
So far as your failure as a comedian, I would have laughed. Even if you said nothing. Just stood there dumb. That would have sufficed to make me want to laugh at you.
How clever. Then he emails me another one of those idiotic fake conversations with a mythical atheist who is easily defeated by a little girl. I’m sure you know the genre:
I gave this little parable all due consideration:
I can’t imagine what makes you think I’d be the least bit interested in this kind of idiotic bullshit. Save it for people stupid enough to fall for it. In other words, go the fuck away.
And then it got really stupid:
OK.
I will leave you alone.
You obviously are allergic to truth and integrity.
Here are my parting shots.
Perfection Is an Outcome Shown by Science and Prevails in All Living Structures
Science is anti-Darwinist, anti-atheist
The Real Ideological Root of Terrorism: Darwinism and Materialism
The punchline: All three links are to the Harun Yahya website. Yahya, also known as Adnan Oktar, is a Muslim fanatic and a serious nutball. See this article by Claire Berlinski, daughter of the infamous IDer David Berlinski. This is from an interview with Sean Stone (Oliver Stone’s son, who has also lost his mind). Get ready for some serious crazy:
SEAN STONE: I have a question for you. Do you think. … what role does the Ark of the Covenant play in the Mahdi’s return?
ADNAN OKTAR: That will be presented to the Jews as an evidence to prove that the righteousness of the Mahdi. All the Jews will then confirm that the Mahdi is a fact, that he is true. I mean with that proof the majority of the Jews will become Muslims. That is because there will the original of the manna inside the Ark. Manna preserved inside a container, many holy relics belonging to the Prophet Musa will be discovered inside. The original of the Torah will be discovered and these will of course have a very positive effect on people. I mean these constitute a very strong evidence for a sincere, conscientious person to become a Muslim. But these will be found by the hand of Hazrat Mahdi. I mean they will be found with Hazrat Mahdi being instrumental in their discovery.
SEAN STONE: So inside the Ark, we are told that there is the manna. Manna.. What does that mean exactly. Manna is the food of the gods, right? Doesn’t that come … I mean what is it, is it a liquid or what is it? Does it come from the brain or what is it? Manna?
ADNAN OKTAR: I can show you manna if you like. Is manna here? We have had it in a bottle?
OKTAR BABUNA: It might be at home Master.
ADNAN OKTAR: Let them bring it here to me so that I can show it to Sean. Have you never seen manna?
SEAN STONE: No, never.
ADNAN OKTAR: Let me have it brought here. My Freemason friends brought that for me especially. That is a special substance obtained very difficultly, that can only be presented to high ranking Freemasons. It can only be preserved inside water. If left in a dust form it can pass through the glass and come out, that is the kind of substance it is. It is a strange substance.
SEAN STONE: Did they tell you what it is made of? What is the source of it?
ADNAN OKTAR: It can be produced from vegetables. But the one they mostly emphasize is the one produced from gold. The one given to me was manna obtained from gold.
SEAN STONE: The white gold or the normal gold?
ADNAN OKTAR: Normal gold as far as I know.
Okey dokey.
26 comments
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ashleybell
August 3, 2012 at 11:46 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Too bad Claire Berlinsky’s dad is such a douchbag. A lame Wm F Buckly wannabe, and Buckley himself was a shit. anyone that literate who maintains as a conservative is a sack-o-shit. Although the conservative party of his time was a sweeter, gentler party.
eric
August 3, 2012 at 11:46 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
For only $999.95, I’m sure. Or maybe this was the initial free offering to get the rube interested.
Raging Bee
August 3, 2012 at 11:47 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Yahya is also the leader of a group of young-earth-creationist activists who could be accurately described as religious gangsters; I hear they’ve been instrumental in getting all mention of evolution erased from college curricula all over Turkey. He’s also (IIRC) been credibly accused, though never convicted, of certain petty organized-crime activities in the past.
And if Mevashir is quoting this thug, that says a lot about his character.
Raging Bee
August 3, 2012 at 11:52 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Scumbags like Mevashir, plus the huge freakout over that circumcision decision in Germany, are really starting to make me wonder what’s happening to the Jews and Judaism recently. It’s starting to look like they’re joining the tide of anti-rationalist insanity that’s been gripping every other major religion all over the world.
Paul
August 3, 2012 at 11:55 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
They almost need to. Those terrible atheists keep attacking religion, so the religious need to band together for their own protection.
But seriously, a Messainic Jew quoting someone who attracts followers who portray him as some sort of Muslim messiah? Now I’ve seen everything. I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
imrryr
August 3, 2012 at 12:02 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
When I see fanfiction with sentences written this poorly I usually stop reading. I know some fundies get off on these imaginary conversations, but I dearly hope that whoever typed this wasn’t doing so one-handed.
democommie
August 3, 2012 at 12:09 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
” I know some fundies get off on these imaginary conversations, but I dearly hope that whoever typed this wasn’t doing so one-handed.”
That could give, “sticky keys” a whole other meaning.
Ed;
Can’t you be just a little gentler with the assfuckbagwipe Mr. Mevashit? I mean, it’s pretty obvious that he’s thermonu-q-lar grade teh Batshit KKKrazzee, what with his dependence on quotes from LFFJ8 J.D. Couldn’t we all just quit calling him names and let the laughing and pointing suffice?
* Lying Fuckbag For JESUS.
Michael Heath
August 3, 2012 at 12:09 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Raging Bee writes:
My last purview of faith within the U.S. Jewish culture is that the population continues to trend towards non-belief while continuing to support its cultural traditions. Where the majority are now mostly non-believers. That observation comes from Phil Zuckerman’s Society without God, which primarily focused on Denmark and Sweden, but also had the author reporting findings about American Jews as well.
percysowner
August 3, 2012 at 12:11 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I know several atheists. I’m not an atheist, but my daughter is. Of all the atheists I know I can not under any circumstance picture them engaging in a discussion about whether or not God exists with a stranger, let alone a little girl. Most of them don’t mention it unless it comes up in conversation. Okay, my daughter tells guys she is an atheist when she starts dating because she hit too many guys who couldn’t deal with it. She doesn’t try to convert, just lets them know and tells them it it’s a deal breaker, they should leave now.
Honestly I don’t think atheists see any upside in “converting” people.
Skip White
August 3, 2012 at 12:15 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Freemason friends? I thought Freemasons were supposed to be devil-worshippers or whatever other ridiculous crap fundies come up with. Of course, the lodge in Hershey, PA is lodge #666. No joke.
slc1
August 3, 2012 at 12:46 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
See this article by Claire Berlinski, daughter of the infamous IDer David Berlinski.
Actually, it is my information that Bo Bo Berlinski doesn’t believe in ID either, despite his association with the Dishonesty Institute.
d cwilson
August 3, 2012 at 12:49 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Raging Bee @4:
I think what we’re seeing is that conservative elements within Judaism are circling the wagons and trying to preserve their way of life/culture by taking an increasingly hardline and literalist approach to their strictures. This is a common reaction among cultures that see their traditions eroding away. It’s akin to the way conservative Christians are becoming even more hardline than they were just 10-20 years ago.
As Michael Heath has noted, Jews as a whole are becoming more secular and marrying outside the faith is becoming increasingly more common. I’ve read numerous articles about how many conservative Jews are worried that they are breeding themselves into extinction. Rolling Stone had an article a year or so ago describing a group that paid to send young Jewish people on a tour of Israel. The people behind do just about everything the can to encourage the young Jewish men and women to “hook up”, get married, and start having Jewish babies.
hotshoe
August 3, 2012 at 12:49 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Yeah, you’ve got that right.
Even considering the most-active public atheists (think FtB bloggers like Ed, or PZ) I cannot imagine one of them sitting next to a stranger on a plane and opening the conversation with “Have you heard that God does not exist?”.
Why would they?
We know why (some) christians would open a conversation with a complete stranger by saying “Have you heard the good news about Jesus?”. They want converts; they believe it’s vital to the stranger’s soul to get converted.
But those reasons don’t have an equivalent that would lead any atheist (that I know of) to attempt to convert strangers.
Pieter B, FCD
August 3, 2012 at 1:02 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
He bitches when people send him profanity, but puts the word “shit” in the mouth of a little girl to make a (weak) point. Jeez, I need to start buying irony meters by the gross.
oranje
August 3, 2012 at 1:23 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Wow. That’s some grade-A word vomit there. I love the imaginary conversations, too. I always read them in a Mr. Rogers voice.
On an entirely pedantic note, does the concept of tone troll seem to be a bit inaccurate? Trolling seems to be a disingenuous attempt to rile or fool someone else. The complaints about language, etc., seem to be an appeal to something other than the argument at hand. Obfuscation, perhaps. Avoiding the point. Being a douchey debater. But it doesn’t seem to deserve the label “troll” to me. Maybe the connotation has moved on enough where the label works fine, but it seems to discredit idiotic whining for the wrong reason.
/pedantry
Jeremy Shaffer
August 3, 2012 at 1:50 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
The atheist considers this point and responds, “So you think God, Heaven and Hell, and life after death are comparable to horse shit? Good to know.”
Paul
August 3, 2012 at 3:41 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Am I a bad atheist that my first thought was “horses also eat hay, apples, and all sorts of other foods” and “deer are actually big pests because they eat fruit and other crops, and farmers around here can’t stand them for hat purpose”? Those animals don’t have identical diets.
Honestly, “herbivore” doesn’t mean “only eats grass”. Also, who would hear someone give a diatribe about how different animals poop differently and think “wow, I’m stunned by this person’s intelligence”.
'smee
August 3, 2012 at 3:53 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul @ 17
A wingnut?
A dittohead?
A republican?
An evangelical christian?
(sorry for repeating myself)
lofgren
August 3, 2012 at 5:01 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I don’t think that trolling has to be disingenuous. You can set out to deliberately troll, in which case you are going to be more successful with disingenuous arguments, but trolls can also be honest in their statements.
I think a troll is somebody who deliberately sets out to sow discord for no constructive reason. A “tone troll” is somebody who says something that boils down to “If you aren’t nice, the validity of your arguments is irrelevant.” Usually it takes the form of “I agree with what you are saying, but you should say it differently or else [other people] won’t agree with you.” It shifts the discussion away from the topic at hand, and registers disagreement on substanceless grounds.
Of course there is a time and place for discussion of tone. If you and I are on a team about to enter a formal debate, discussion of tone is constructive criticism. If you are reviewing my personal essay or a statement of purpose for my organization, then comments on tone are very helpful. But in the comments section of a blog, particularly a political blog, it is expected that the comments will stick to the topic at hand or wander into other areas of substance rather than getting caught up in semantic arguments.
Each blog has its own standards of tone, and you can get banned for inappropriate tone in some places. This is not tone trolling. Nor is somebody saying “Dude, quit being a dick.” Tone trolling is specifically an attempt to invalidate, obfuscate, or deflect the substance of a person’s post due to its tone, which is basically what Mevashir is doing.
Note that the existence of tone trolling does not excuse being an asshole.
lofgren
August 3, 2012 at 5:11 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Those animals don’t have the same number of stomachs, let alone diets.
JD
August 3, 2012 at 10:09 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Ed said:
Who said anything about your tone? Or your lack of concern about profanity? Those are irrelevant. You intentionally chose to publicize only half of a conversation, which is “disingenuous,” to borrow a term. It hints of embarrassment or an active attempt to hide something. If it wasn’t a big deal why not show everyone how Weinstein communicates? Having now seen the conversation, it’s not like Weinstein’s inability to form a sentence without multiple ellipses has changed in years. The font and color changes were new, though.
Then again, those kind of irrationally formatted emails are the very thing some people here are quick to criticize. He even had a misspelling!
Of course, Weinstein did get embarrassed when his emails were publicized before — and he called it “despicable” and demanded an apology. Maybe that’s why you did it. A little ego guarding, or avoiding a demand from him for an apology?
TCC
August 3, 2012 at 11:17 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
JD, did you even read how that went down? Haggard accused Weinstein of making it harder for him (Haggard, that is) to fight anti-Semitism. I’m not Jewish, but I have to think that I would be similarly pissed off if I were and someone told me that, not to mention if their response was just to make the whole conversation public after that. You omitted a fair amount of the context there in your self-serving attempt to accuse Ed of hypocrisy.
And yes, talking about “vitriol” is essentially tone trolling.
democommie
August 4, 2012 at 9:48 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
JD, LFFJ & GOD’s own fighter pilot:
I would never dream of accusing a sack of shit like you of being a tone troll, Mevashir surer than fuck is, though. Compared to the blatant lying that you do in EVERY fucking comment you’ve ever made here, tone trolling on your part would be a refreshing change.
Raging Bee
August 4, 2012 at 10:09 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Those are irrelevant. You intentionally chose to publicize only half of a conversation, which is “disingenuous,” to borrow a term.
Well, if there’s something in the other half that you think is relevant, then go ahead and quote it, and explain how it changes things.
It hints of embarrassment or an active attempt to hide something.
“Hints” at an attempt to hide “something?” Specifics, please, or you have no real argument.
Seriously, you petty, lying, uniform-abusing bully, people selectively quote bits of dialogue all the time, for both brevity and clarity. It’s not “disingenuous” unless you can cite a specific serious omission. Which, AFAIK, you still have not done.
So, yeah, you can be called a tone-troll, since your comments have no actual content.
shockna
August 4, 2012 at 10:26 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
So JD, are you just that pissed off that FTB helped get your blog blocked from Air Force networked computers?
andrewlephong
August 5, 2012 at 4:06 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I think it’s a safe bet the average theologian doesn’t know much about scatological differences among various mammals either, but that never deters them from talking about God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death as if they knew shit.