I laughed and didn’t pay much attention when I saw the Christian Post article about an “atheist activist” named Patrick Greene had converted to Christianity. Yes, I know such stories are like catnip for Christians, but I’d never even heard of this guy. His reasons for converting seemed awfully dumb to me:
“There’s been one lingering thought in the back of my head my entire life, and it’s one thought that I’ve never been able to reconcile, and that is the vast difference between all the animals and us,” Greene told The Christian Post on Tuesday, as he began to explain his recent transformation from atheist to Christian. The theory of evolution didn’t answer his questions, he says, so he just set those questions aside and didn’t think about them anymore.
But when the Christians in a town that had reason to be angry with him showed him a gesture of love, he began reconsidering his beliefs altogether. He eventually began to realize that evolution would never have the answer to his questions, he says, and it was at that time he began to believe in God.
“I kind of realized that the questions I [was] asking you just had to accept on faith without doubting every period and every comma,” he said. He later began studying the Bible, both the Old Testament and the Gospels, and also discovered his belief that Jesus is the Son of God.
Wow, how terribly compelling. But Staks Rosch actually interviewed the guy and he offered an even dumber argument:
“What got me to Jesus was very simple. With the education levels and knowledge of the societies back 2,000 years ago, Jesus had to be the son of God, because the people there would not have the imagination to make up stories like walking on water, rising from the dead, and changing water into wine.”
Uh, what? Has he never read Greek mythology? They had the imagination to think up crazier things than that. This is such an utterly moronic argument that I’m beginning to wonder if Greene is really such an idiot, or is he perhaps playing a prank on Christians, claiming to have converted for the dumbest possible reasons just to see them make such a big deal over him? If the latter, it’s pretty clever. If the former … well, good riddance from the atheist movement.
29 comments
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Ellie
April 10, 2012 at 10:37 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/04/07/patrick-greene-changes-his-mind-about-converting-to-christianity/
DaveL
April 10, 2012 at 10:51 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I think it’s likely a combination of the two – he’s both not all that bright and not all that honest.
Michael Heath
April 10, 2012 at 10:53 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
It’s hard to top Francis Collins conversion story for dumbest ever, as I recall it, “I saw a pretty waterfall, therefore Jesus is the son of God.”
Here’s Mr. Collins:
The fact a successful scientist with the critical thinking skills necessary to administrate organizations said this demonstrates how people are able to compartmentalize their thinking skills to derive at incredibly delusional idiotic conclusions while excelling in other areas.
Jordan Genso
April 10, 2012 at 11:00 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
How long until a “former” liberal “converts” to become the conservatives’ favorite turncoat, only later to reveal it was all one big poe?
heddle
April 10, 2012 at 11:05 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Michael Heath,
Virtually all conversion stories would appear as “stupid” as Collins’s to an unbeliever. Mine is just as stupid–as are most that I know of. And I would say conversion is the wrong word–that event would have already happened. It is actually a response to the conversion–trying to find purchase/context to make sense of it.
Yes. It’s like finding people who are completely rational, intelligent and liberal in most areas and mouth-frothing mindless bigots when it comes to Christians. Compartmentalization is agnostic.
As for this post– I am glad it appears that it is not a prank. I hate pranks based on masquerading–it is so cheap.
Ray Ingles
April 10, 2012 at 11:11 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
heddle –
Thankfully, you haven’t found any in this discussion.
greg1466
April 10, 2012 at 11:25 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
So his big problem was the vast difference between humans and other animals such as when a town of Christians showed him love when they had every right to be angry at him. Obviously he’s never had a dog.
Michael Heath
April 10, 2012 at 11:49 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
heddle,
I don’t get your point. You concede conversion stories demonstrate stupidity when observed by an independent observer. So please, make a case they actually aren’t stupid or delusional in spite of the fact a predominate* tool we use to derive what is objectively true, that of human reason independently verified, shows these stories to be obviously irrational to the point of stupidity and delusion.
You instead appear to want to cowardly insinuate that bigotry is involved when someone states the obvious with these sorts of events. As if we should stay away from using the same type of critical thinking lauded when employed to observe other events, where here such conclusions should be out of bounds when making an observation about someone’s conversion story if one wants to avoid the bigot label.
This is incoherent to me, except for perhaps a way to shield oneself from actually testing their conclusions by emotionally attacking the messenger in order to avoid having to actually defend the irrationality and lack of evidence of that which they believe is objectively true beyond merely proclaiming faith is the key. As if that’s a coherent response. Where such beliefs requires them to abandon the method which best results in understanding objective truth and has falsified so much of their holy dogma, or found it be lacking even a scintilla of evidence and which requires conclusions of its faithful which also violate the laws of logic and rationality.
*Obviously the other predominate tool is finding physical evidence.
JT (Generic)
April 10, 2012 at 12:07 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
“Compartmentalization is agnostic.”
What? Compartmentalization believes that gods are unknowable?
I don’t get it.
tommykey
April 10, 2012 at 12:11 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
As I rounded a corner and saw a beautiful and unexpected frozen waterfall, hundreds of feet high, I knew the search was over.
My question to Collins would be “Why was the waterfall unexpected?” Was it that he had hiked there before and never seen it, or was it too warm for that time of year to see a frozen water fall?
If you’re hiking in the mountains, you are bound to encounter waterfalls at some point. And if it is winter or early spring, it’s likely to be mostly or completely frozen. There is nothing miraculous about it.
Now if Collins had come across a waterfall where the water flowed up in defiance of gravity, that I could understand as being some kind of phenomenal event.
KG
April 10, 2012 at 12:14 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
heddle,
What would you say about conversions to religions other than your own? Here is a collection of stories of conversion to Islam, for example.
tommykey
April 10, 2012 at 12:18 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
KG, obviously they were tricked by Satan!
heddle
April 10, 2012 at 12:28 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Michael Heath,
No I am not implying bigotry re. your comment on Collins’s conversion. I am just stating another example of compartmentalization that I have seen.
As for Collins’s conversion (or mine or anyone else) they are only “not stupid” if the premise is true. That is, if a person was indeed converted by god and given new desires, then it makes sense that something triggers what would appear to him as an epiphany but was, I believe, his way of coping with a radical internal change. There is no way to make this rational to unbelievers because it involves accepting that an irrational, supernatural event (conversion) occurred. Ain’t going to happen. The best I can say is that if you accept the premise for the sake of argument, I think you can see why so many conversions (again, actually the responses to the conversions) have an emotional and often surprising manifestation.
If there is no god supernaturally converting people, then conversion stories are profoundly stupid.
tommykey,
As for the “unexpected” waterfall, Collins did not mean that he thought it was miraculous–you are putting words in his mouth. He meant it was, well, unexpected. A surprise. That never happened to you, that you encountered something beautiful that you were not expecting?
heddle
April 10, 2012 at 12:43 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
KG,
I would say I have no explanation and they would appear to me to be stupid.
tommykey,
No, that would not be theologically sound. Satan, at least based on the bible, has no interest in unbelievers. They are not, it would seem, on his radar.
plutosdad
April 10, 2012 at 12:57 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I remember when my fiance showed me an article about the local christians actually helping him out instead of carrying out their usual death threats and gloating, and I thought “that’s nice, christians actually acting like they claim they should act”. And even she, who is a theist, said “it’s about time”.
It’s just that once, finally, Christians understood the Parable of the Good Samaritan is not about helping others, it’s about helping people you think you have cause to hate. Now that he has withdrawn his conversion, I wonder how many think it was a waste of time.
Even both Jesus and Paul said the reason to be good is to “heap coals on their head”, not just for goodness’ sake.
Of course, it sounds like the momentary niceness of a few christians could not overcome the blistering hate of the majority of them. Though neither is a reason to believe or disbelieve.
TCC
April 10, 2012 at 1:07 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
heddle:
If you read the link in comment #1, you’ll see that while it is not a prank, it is also not an actual conversion. Whatever you can say about this guy, he seems to be pretty confused (as long as he’s sincere, which I’m assuming he is).
tommykey
April 10, 2012 at 1:14 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
That never happened to you, that you encountered something beautiful that you were not expecting?
Hi Heddle.
There’s a difference between encountering something beautiful you personally did not expect but have no reason to think couldn’t exist and encountering something that you not only were not personally expecting, but had no reason to believe could reasonably be expected.
To give you a personal example, this past Sunday afternoon I was hiking. When I got as far as I had the time to go for the day, there was a small stream. I was relaxing by the stream watching the water flow by when I saw something flying in my peripheral vision to my right. It turned out to be a little brown bat that periodically descended down to the water, presumably either to sip it or to snatch some insect. I watched it doing this for a couple of minutes before it flew away to a tree across the nearby street.
Now, I did not expect to encounter a bat, and seeing it was a really cool way to end the hike. But as surprised as I was, I know that brown bats do live on Long Island and that it should not be impossible to see one. I don’t see why I should extrapolate from the experience that Jesus Christ was born from a virgin, performed miracles and rose from the dead.
A frozen waterfall in the mountains might be a pleasant surprise to stumble upon, but their existence shouldn’t be a surprise. Encountering a waterfall that flowed upwards in defiance of gravity would be unexpected because there is no reason to think that such a thing is possible.
kermit.
April 10, 2012 at 1:45 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
tommykey, when I got hit by a car from behind forty-some years ago, I can assure you that it was completely unexpected. But I did not think then, nor do I think now, that it was miraculous or especially unusual.
I have indeed turned the corner and been confronted with unexpected beauty on more occasions than I can count, and some of them were literally hair-raising. But I was never inclined to associate them with any gods.
garnetstar
April 10, 2012 at 2:24 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Greene was a loony “atheist” anyway:
“He’s a somewhat notorious kook in the atheist movement, best known for calling into The Atheist Experience show and threatening to sue Ray Comfort over a bumper sticker he found offensive. His “activism” consisted of making ill-founded accusations and getting thoroughly chewed out by the real atheist activists, like Matt Dillahunty and Russell Glasser.”
Looks like he was a pretty loony christian too.
garnetstar
April 10, 2012 at 2:27 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Whoops, wrong link: Think of it as Culling the Herd
Modusoperandi
April 10, 2012 at 3:16 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
tommykey “Now, I did not expect to encounter a bat, and seeing it was a really cool way to end the hike. But as surprised as I was, I know that brown bats do live on Long Island and that it should not be impossible to see one. I don’t see why I should extrapolate from the experience that Jesus Christ was born from a virgin, performed miracles and rose from the dead.”
Ah, but what if it was three bats who flew down together, drank separately, then flew away together? Then would you believe in Batman?
That can’t be right.
…
Also, I should note that the closest thing I’ve ever had to a religious experience was set off at the sight of a simple little millipede, so I can’t fault Francis Collins too bad.
heddle
April 10, 2012 at 4:16 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
TCC,
Yes I understood that he was not really converted. Of course that would have been the preferred option, but given that wasn’t the case I am glad it wasn’t a stupid prank.
Tommykey,
That may be, but my point stands, Collins did not view the waterfall as a miracle, as in in and of itself it was violating the laws of physics. At most he would say it was a sign. As a Calvinist, I would say he had already been converted and the waterfall crystallized for his intellect the change that had already taken place.
onefuriousllama
April 10, 2012 at 4:27 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
The man is a twat. That is all.
Chris Booth
April 11, 2012 at 1:39 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Cool! What did the millipede say?
dingojack
April 11, 2012 at 2:22 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
MO – More to the point – was the millipede* sitting on a mushroom wearing a red fez and smoking a hookah?
Inquiring minds need to know!
Dingo
—–
* you sure it wasn’t another member of the Myriapoda? I hear centipedes are far cooler than millipedes. Take this as an example.
Personally, I prefer tardigrades and velvetworms.
gratch
April 11, 2012 at 3:23 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Oh I don’t know, I think Mr. Greene makes a valid point. After all, when my nephew first told me there was a monster living in his closet I was skeptical. But then when I realized that his education and level of knowledge was too low for that kind of imagination I knew it must be true.
jimc
April 11, 2012 at 9:14 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
And the angels just keep dancing on those pins……….
Modusoperandi
April 11, 2012 at 10:24 am (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Chris Booth “Cool! What did the millipede say?”
It didn’t say anything. Millipedes can’t talk.
dingojack? “MO – More to the point – was the millipede* sitting on a mushroom wearing a red fez and smoking a hookah?”
No. Get out of here, hippie! Git
“Personally, I prefer tardigrades and velvetworms.”
So does everybody else who prefers things that are awesome.
jimc “And the angels just keep dancing on those pins……….”
Oh, come on! It’s serious theology. [insert lolcat of cat napping on open bible, with text saying "Shush! Iz serius theologee"]
F
April 11, 2012 at 3:12 pm (UTC -4) Link to this comment
tommykey:
Fooken ninja frozen waterfalls. Creep up on you when you least expect it, then disappear like shadows in the sun.