It’s been five years now since I first became involved with the atheist and skeptic movements. And for most of those five years, I felt like I belonged. When I started the Society of Non-Theists at Purdue University, I was relieved to know I wasn’t the only atheist on my campus. So when I realized there was an even greater national movement, I was elated to become a part of it. I had finally found people who shared my passion and values. I was welcomed with open arms.
Until I started talking about feminism.
You see, my previous atheist activism wasn’t sullied by the f-word. People applauded me for starting an atheist group on a conservative college campus. For blogging about our events and getting local media attention. For volunteering as a board member of the Secular Student Alliance. And most of all, for creating Boobquake.
I’ve always considered myself a feminist, but I used to be one of those teenagers who assumed the awesome ladies before me had solved everything. But Boobquake made me wake up. What I originally envisioned as an empowering event about supporting women’s freedoms and calling out dangerous superstitious thinking devolved into “Show us your tits!” I received sexual invitations from strangers around the country. When I appeared or spoke at atheist events, there was always a flood of comments about my chest and appearance. I’ve been repeatedly told I can never speak out against people objectifying or sexually harassing me because a joke about my boobs was eternal “consent.”
So I started speaking up about dirty issues like feminism and diversity and social justice because I thought messages like “please stop sexually harassing me” would be simple for skeptics and rationalists. But I was naive. Like clockwork, every post on feminism devolved into hundreds of comments accusing me being a man-hating, castrating, humorless, ugly, overreacting harpy. Despite the crap I received, I continued to publicly support these movements and stress that the haters were just a tiny minority. I thought this flood of sexism I had never experienced before was just a consequence of me growing up and heading out into the real world, and had nothing to do with these movements in particular. I can’t count how many times I publicly stressed that the atheist/skeptical movement, while not perfect, is still a safer place for women and other minorities.
But now I recognize that I was trying to convince myself that this is true.
I don’t feel safe as a woman in this community – and I feel less safe than I do as a woman in science, or a woman in gaming, or hell, as a woman walking down the fucking sidewalk. People shat themselves with rage at the suggestion that cons should have anti-sexual harassment policies. DJ Grothe, president of JREF, blamed those evil feminist bloggers for TAM’s female attendance problem instead of trying to fix what’s scaring women away (and then blocked me on Twitter and unfriended me on Facebook for good measure). A 15 year old girl posted a photo of herself holding a Carl Sagan book to r/atheism and got a flood of rape jokes in return. The Amazing Atheist purposefully tried to trigger a rape survivor. Paula Kirby decided we’re all feminazis and femistasis. I’ve become used to being called a cunt or having people threaten to contact my employers because a feminist can’t be a good scientist. Rebecca Watson is still receiving constant rape and death threats a year after she said “Guys, don’t do that.” And mentioning her name is a Beetlejuice-like trigger for a new torrent of hate mail.
Groups of people are obsessively devoted to slandering Freethought Blogs as a whole because many of us have feminist leanings. They photoshop things to try to humiliate us, they gain unauthorized access to our private email listserv. And anyone associated with us feminists are fair game. People have tried to destroy Surly Amy’s business, and Justin Vacula has publicly posted her home address with a photo. One blogger who describes their blog as “rejecting the watson/myers doctrine” ridiculed skeptical teen activist (and feminist ally) Rhys Morgan for flunking his exams because he had severe physical and mental illnesses.
I now realize I was never truly welcome in this movement. I just managed to unwittingly sneak in before I opened my big fat feminist mouth.
I was exactly what a Boy’s Club wanted. I was a young, not-hideous woman who passionately supported their cause. I made them look diverse without them having to address their minority-repelling privilege. They liked that I joked about sex and boobs not because it was empowering for me, but because they saw it as a pass to oggle and objectify. But the Boy’s Club rescinds its invitation once they realize you’re a rabble-rousing feminist. I was welcome at TAM when I was talking about a boob joke, but now I’m persona non grata for caring about sexual harassment. I used to receive numerous comments about how hot and attractive I was, but when I politely asked for people to keep the discussion professional, the comments morphed into how I was an ugly cunt. I was once considered an up-and-coming student leader, but now I’m accused of destroying the movement.
Well, that last bit is partially true. I want to destroy the part of the movement that has privilege as its foundation, as Natalie Reed perfectly describes:
The creepy thought that the reason a lot of outspoken, committed, passionate atheists are choosing this as their arena is because they’re too selfish, too entitled, or too sheltered, to allow any other issues to really matter to them. That they choose this ONE civil rights issue to dedicate themselves to, because it’s the ONLY legitimate civil rights issue that actually affects them, secure in their absence of ovaries, melanin, exogenous hormones, medical devices/supports, welfare checks, track scars and rainbow flags.
[...]It seems that there’s some kind of weird psychological need that a lot of people, perhaps in response to feelings that their belief of their privileges being earned is under threat, valorize and mythologize themselves as valiant Robin Hoods who dare to speak truth to power and stand up for the little guy against the tyrannical… …. Jews? Blacks? Trans people? Atheists? Women? The theme is always the same, however.
And what I worry is how much Atheism might be offering a similar sort of feeling without requiring the same levels of divorcing oneself from reality and diving into some kind of Bizarro World inversion of actual social dynamics. That what atheism is offering so many middle-class, white, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied men is the capacity to see themselves as these savvy, smart, daring, controversial rogues who are standing up against an oppressive dogma in order to liberate the deluded sheeple. They’re, like, totally against swallowing the blue pill, dude. And so they get to be the heroes of their own narratives, instead of a passive passenger adrift on social forces more or less beyond their control… social forces that happened to guide them into a relatively safe and comfy position.
No matter how limited your views, no matter how much privilege you have, when you prop yourself up against Christianity, you get to be clever, and you get to be the rebel.
I don’t want good causes like secularism and skepticism to die because they’re infested with people who see issues of equality as mission drift. I want Deep Rifts. I want to be able to truthfully say that I feel safe in this movement. I want the misogynists, racists, homophobes, transphobes, and downright trolls out of the movement for the same reason I wouldn’t invite them over for dinner or to play Mario Kart: because they’re not good people. We throw up billboards claiming we’re Good Without God, but how are we proving that as a movement? Litter clean-ups and blood drives can only say so much when you’re simultaneously threatening your fellow activists with rape and death.*
It’s time for a new wave of atheism, just like there were different waves of feminism. I’d argue that it’s already happened before. The “first wave” of atheism were the traditional philosophers, freethinkers, and academics. Then came the second wave of “New Atheists” like Dawkins and Hitchens, whose trademark was their unabashed public criticism of religion. Now it’s time for a third wave – a wave that isn’t just a bunch of “middle-class, white, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied men” patting themselves on the back for debunking homeopathy for the 983258th time or thinking up yet another great zinger to use against Young Earth Creationists. It’s time for a wave that cares about how religion affects everyone and that applies skepticism to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, politics, poverty, and crime. We can criticize religion and irrational thinking just as unabashedly and just as publicly, but we need to stop exempting ourselves from that criticism.
Changing a movement seems like a mighty task (especially when you lack a witty name – the Newer Atheists doesn’t have a great ring to it). But the reason I’m not throwing my hands up in the air and screaming “I quit” is because we’re already winning. It’s an uphill battle, for sure – in case you’ve forgotten, scroll up and reread this post. But change is coming. Some national organizations accepted anti-harassment policies with no fuss at all. A lot of local or student groups are fabulous when it comes to issues of diversity and social justice. A number of prominent male leaders have begun speaking out against this surge of hate directed at women. I’m working with others to hopefully start an atheist/skeptical organization specifically focused on issues of equality. And although the response from the haters is getting louder and viler, they’re now vastly outnumbered by supportive comments (which wasn’t always true). This surge of hate is nothing more than the last gasp of a faction that has reached its end.
There will inevitably be people who use this post as evidence of some gynocratic conspiracy and will hunker down even more (for examples, check the comment section in a couple of hours – odds are good you’ll find some). There will be organizations, conferences, communities, and individuals that will never care about diversity or equality or social justice. There will be some that continue to devote their free time to harassing and threatening the rest of us instead of going outside for a walk or reading a book. Though these people claim to love reason, no amount of reason will ever get them to admit that they’re wrong. So to them, all I have to say is have fun as you circle jerk into oblivion. Keep unintentionally or intentionally excluding women, minorities, and progressives while cluelessly wondering why you’re losing members, money, and clout. The rest of us will be moving on.
If you’re ready for this new wave of atheism, now is the time to speak up. Say that you’re ready. Vocally support organizations and individuals that are already doing it right. Vocally criticize the inappropriate and hateful behavior so the victims of such actions know you’re on their side. Demand that your organizations and clubs evolve, or start your own if they refuse.
The Boy’s Club may have historically ruled the movement, but they don’t own it. We can.
*EDIT: I want to clarify that I did not mean the people and organizations involved with the official “Good without God” campaigns are the ones behind the rape and death threats. My intent was to show that if we’re publicly promoting atheists as good people, we need to deal with the not-so-good stuff that’s happening behind the scenes. I chatted with Greg Epstein specifically and he’s super supportive of the mission of A+.
953 comments
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Pteryxx
August 18, 2012 at 4:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*standing ovs*
Third Wave atheism might be a bit confusing while simultaneously talking about feminism… how about ‘inclusive atheism’ ? That’s the best I’ve been able to think of so far.
Pteryxx
August 18, 2012 at 4:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
ooh, and the logo could be A+ !
SpitefulFox
August 18, 2012 at 4:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I still like my “Atheism Mk II” nickname. ;D
Ophelia Benson
August 18, 2012 at 4:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Isn’t the targeting of Rhys just beyond belief?
Great post.
LeftSidePositive
August 18, 2012 at 4:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Awesomesauce.
StarStuff, a soulless cunt
August 18, 2012 at 4:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fuck yeah! Exactly this.
Beatrice
August 18, 2012 at 4:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*applause*
This is one brilliant rant and a call for a revolution.
Thank you for speaking up.
Martin S Pribble
August 18, 2012 at 4:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree, and have been trying to be part of a new movement for some time now. Whether its atheism, secularism or humanism, these movements are undergoing a shift, and call me the eternal optimist, I think it is for the better. I don’t want to get involved in the “sides” which have arisen, but I do feel compelled to speak up when I see posts like this. It is time to move forward. It is time to create a new movement which focuses not just on religion and skepticism, but a humanism which embraces diversity and the differences within the movement. I have always hoped that these movements could stand as an example for the wider community, and I still think they can, but not without a little introspection and honesty about how we conduct ourselves in our interpersonal discourses.
felixBC
August 18, 2012 at 4:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hurrah!
“If you’re ready for this new wave of atheism, now is the time to speak up. Say that you’re ready. Vocally support organizations and individuals that are already doing it right. Vocally criticize the inappropriate and hateful behavior so the victims of such actions know you’re on their side. Demand that your organizations and clubs evolve, or start your own if they refuse.”
We’re ready!
llewelly
August 18, 2012 at 4:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This will resonate with many; people will empathize with your experience, either because they know people who had a similar experience, or have had a similar experience themselves.
Reforming the atheist movement is vital to its long term success, and to enabling women to break free from religion.
Miriam
August 18, 2012 at 5:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*applauds*
This particularly stuck with me:
LS
August 18, 2012 at 5:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I am absolutely with you on this.
I’ve felt disaffected with the atheist community for a long while now. Tired of the sexism, the bullshit infighting, the sexism, the fact that many prominent atheists are flat-out assholes, and the sexism. A little over a year ago I pretty much gave up on atheism as a movement.
I won’t say I always agree with prominent feminists either. I’ve made a conscious decision not to refer to myself as one. But my nitpicks with feminism are molehills compared to the veritable mountain of bullshit which is mainstream sexist atheism.
You’ve opened a lot of door for me, Jen. It was through your blog that I first discovered concepts like privilege, and the subtle way sexism still controls our society. It was through you that I decided I was comfortable using the word “Atheist” rather than simply “Agnostic who actively disbelieves in any commonly accepted notion of divinity.”
I want to see Newer Atheism happen. I want to see atheists become the morally upstanding, ethical people that I used to think we were.
Improbable Joe
August 18, 2012 at 5:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
EPIC WIN!
And Pteryxx has maybe the right idea with “A+” because it can be positive atheism and “atheism plus”… “plus” social justice and all the rest. Certainly, the loud angry bigots are going the way of the dodo in the grand scheme of things. And with the good folks here and over at Skepchick and other places in leadership positions, those bigots won’t be allowed to hang back and tag along and sabotage future progress.
Again Jen, well fucking done.
Gordon
August 18, 2012 at 5:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I want those guys out too. I cannot understand what the hell is wrong with them! I’m a straight white cis guy, and it doesn’t seem to have stopped me noticing that women are people.
tigtog
August 18, 2012 at 5:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post, Jen. Thank you.
One Thousand Needles
August 18, 2012 at 5:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
All I have to say is: Count me in! Count me in!
Arakiba
August 18, 2012 at 5:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Alot of the men in the atheist/skeptical movement love the feeling it gives them of specialness, that they’re so much smarter and more enlightened than the religious or spiritual people they mock. Think about it, who is more smug and self satisfied than Richard Dawkins? That’s the attitude so many of these men have. They’re exactly like the Galt-wannabe guys who discover Ayn Rand in college in that they feel very superior to others and can’t tolerate challenges to their superiority.
Makes me proud I’m not part of their movement.
'Tis Himself
August 18, 2012 at 5:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Speaking as a middle-class, white, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied man, I applaud your stance against the misogynists who refuse to accept anyone but themselves and their clones into their club.
Dan J
August 18, 2012 at 5:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*applause*
ewanmacdonald
August 18, 2012 at 5:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sign me up to ride the third wave.
matthewgreene
August 18, 2012 at 5:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Spot on!
Luc Duval
August 18, 2012 at 5:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A thousand times “yes!”
TychaBrahe
August 18, 2012 at 5:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m really happy to see your enthusiasm, because it’s something I no longer have. I have never been subjected to sexual harassment as an adult, because as a child I ate myself out of the category of sexually attractive women. I do get a lot of fat shaming. It’s one of the ways I know that the person I’m talking with has no valid counterarguments.
My desk faces a bookshelf, and not five feet from me is Susan Faludi’s Backlash, 21 years old now. I don’t see much changing in those two decades, except that if anything it’s gotten more vicious and vitriolic. Blonde jokes are nothing compared to the repeated refrain to “get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich” or the constant reference to rape or why sexual harassment is natural for men.
I used to belong to an organization dedicated to inspiring young people in space and science education. All of the members had dreamed of being astronauts but would never meet the physical and mental requirements of a space program that launched maybe a dozen people a year. Still, we committed to making each generation have easier access to space. Right now, the fact that I spent decades of hard physical labor (you try wearing 60 pounds of suit and gear in the desert for five hours with only a fan blowing air in your face to fool your body into believing you are cool) doing this seems pitiable. And I wonder what gains have been made by decades of feminist writings and lives devoted to struggle.
I keep going because there is no alternative, but I no longer believe I’m accomplishing anything.
Mary B.
August 18, 2012 at 5:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post!!! Love everything you do. You are an inspiration to me. Keep it up!
Jadzia626
August 18, 2012 at 5:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m with you on “third wave atheism”, it includes “third wave feminism” and can’t stand “third wave misogyny”. Makes perfect sense to me :)
Jessa
August 18, 2012 at 5:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fantastic post! *applauds*
Stevarious
August 18, 2012 at 5:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Absolutely.
I don’t know who originally said it, but I’ll paraphrase. Any Deep Rifts® that get between me and a bunch of misogynist assholes is welcome and invited. I’m done with them, I don’t want any more to do with them, I’m tired of arguing with them, I’m tired of the abuse and the threats. If you are so committed to treating other human beings like shit that you would rather turn your guns on your allies than give it up, then we don’t need you as allies.
Get ye gone!
mel
August 18, 2012 at 5:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree, I just don’t want to be part of the atheist movement now, you try and mention feminism or or stuff like that and watch all the haters come out of the wood work. I have been threatened, my children threatened, so I will not involve myself with it any more. Good on you despite all the crap that has happened
Adrian
August 18, 2012 at 5:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@Joe: Atheism+ is called Humanism.
Caine, Fleur du mal
August 18, 2012 at 5:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Righteous rant, Jen! I say the house is rotten, tear the damn thing down. We’ll build a better house, one with a solid foundation.
Josh
August 18, 2012 at 5:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*fistbump*
Wowbagger, Antipodean Dervish
August 18, 2012 at 5:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well said.
Ethan
August 18, 2012 at 5:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And my axe!! I mean, you have my support too!! Let’s be skeptical of everything!
dcortesi
August 18, 2012 at 5:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ is GENIUS!! Says it all in 2 glyphs. Brilliant!
Jasper of Maine (I feel safe and welcome at FTB)
August 18, 2012 at 5:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Where do I sign up?
Keely
August 18, 2012 at 5:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It’s entirely unsurprising for me to say “I’m with you”, but I’ll start with that. You are right, you are brave, and you are awesome, and I’m with you all the way.
But an aside…
I can’t tell you how many fights I have had over your blog. In fact, my ex felt you had “infected” me with crazy feminist ideas. And I’m so glad. Standing up for my stance on your ideas was a big part of me learning to stand up for myself. And I know that is a little quirk of my own life, and that you had nothing to do with it, but…
You got so much pushback, and yet you kept going. And I looked at that and said, if she can keep going in the face of that, I can stand up to my one asshole.
So thanks for being awesome. You have done and will do huge things for this movement. And the people in it.
Comradde PhysioProffe
August 18, 2012 at 5:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Awesome post, Jen! How anyone who claims to take a skeptical attitude towards truth claims could argue against what you are saying is mind-boggling.
Valerie C
August 18, 2012 at 5:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*applause*
Lets see….
Next Gen Atheism?
Freethougth Atheism?
PanAtheism?
New2 Atheism….doh…
Novas (latin new) Atheism?
We could also hijack the “New Atheism” title. I don’t think the boy’s club reign has lasted long enough to be it’s own reign. Merely being loud and vocal against atheism (what used to define “new atheist”) has partially backfired with the loud, vocal minority oppressing social minorities. What you consider first and second wave atheism is merely a product of more christian media attention trying to turn us into the boogyman, not an actual new wave.
Matthew Oakley
August 18, 2012 at 5:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Bravo, bravo, bravo! Awesome post! As someone who is often far too quiet and far too reserved about this issues, let me say that I support you 100%. The truth is that you, Ophelia Benson, Greta Christina, Rebecca Watson and countless others have made such an impact in this community, opened so many eyes to their privilege, and made so many people challenge most if not all of their wrong headed beliefs.
It certainly did with me. I was once someone with fuzzy ideas about equality yet still held toxic views that reeked of privilege. Thanks to those poeple listed above I know understamd how wrong those ideas were and how far short of my ideals I really was. Whilst I’m far from perfect and still have first responses (which I then brutally beat down) that I know are wrong, I’ve come so far and learnt so much that I really am a different person. One day I hope that I will have shed all remnants of my privilege and will finally manage to live up to my ideals. If not I will be damn close, I assure you of that.
This is a fight that must be fought, not just for the good of the atheist comunity but for society in general. It may be that the fight won’t be won by this generation or indeed the one after but one day it will be won and the world will owe it to people like yourself (and the others that I’ve mentioned) for the victory and your sacrifices will be celebrated like so many who have fought for similar causes in the past.
As for the trolls and scumbags who stand against us, I’m not sure what to say. Their ideas are so alien to those I hold that I struggle to understand them. Hopefully, one day they will finally start to understand why their ideas are so wrong. If not then not just the atheist movement but all of society would be a better place without them and hopefully, in time, their ideas will be treated with the contempt they deserve.
Praedico
August 18, 2012 at 5:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hear, hear!
Paco
August 18, 2012 at 5:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post! I hope our children start right from the new wave already. Sadly, I speak from a country where a first wave is yet to come or has been *very* weak so far.
~G~
August 18, 2012 at 5:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Excellent!!
I’ve been thinking about names, too especially last couple weeks. Life long atheist, but my motivator is skepticism bc to me it is all about critical thinking and applying that same critique to one’s self, society, not just at the easy stuff. I wondered about “pan-skepticism” or what about “progressive skepticism”?
Totally on board sick of the damn hero of their own narrative and circle jerking bullshit. And sad thing is, I actually *do* enjoy and find value in learning about cryptozoology, paranormal, etc. But not to make fun of people. To learn about how people think, how to analyze info, and they are a great way to introduce newbies to skepticism. And you can learn a lot about biology, anthropology, psychology, etc. from actually learning about the whats and hows of these topics. Not just going, “You believe in ghosts, derp your’e STUPID!!!! Give me cookie.” So many atheists/skeptics, so little humility.
But yes, there must be room for more, too. Shit that matters to diverse people who suffer due to real crap in our society. Can’t say religion is bad because it’s sexist and homophobic and racist and then refuse to look for the dirt under your own nails.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 18, 2012 at 5:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m in. I hope.
Just a guy
August 18, 2012 at 5:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I didn’t realize atheism was some kind of group.
Emily
August 18, 2012 at 5:33 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fantastic and necessary post. This is the kind of movement I’d be proud to be a member of. Include me in.
Pteryxx
August 18, 2012 at 5:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Progressive skepticism, or pro-skepticism, works too IMHO… it’s been banging around my head as an alternative to “hobby skepticism” that goes around debunking people’s hobbies. Sheesh…
aleph squared
August 18, 2012 at 5:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hell yes.
willemref
August 18, 2012 at 5:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Gonna pray for ya Dennis. I believe in something more powerful, and you believe in nothing at all but you. Such a strong mind and you can’t see past your nose. I say this with all respect, so please don’t be offended.
waltyarbrough
August 18, 2012 at 5:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*fistbump*
*golfclap*
dogeared, spotted and foxed
August 18, 2012 at 5:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I do like A+ but no matter the name, count me in.
Izzy
August 18, 2012 at 5:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, you are my hero! You give me hope that world my now 2 year old daughter is going to grow up is going to be better than what we have now! (yes I am a white male, but it shouldn’t matter, this is an issue we all have to support and change for the better)
cicely
August 18, 2012 at 5:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*applause*
-
georgics
August 18, 2012 at 5:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Beautiful <3
Pteryxx
August 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+? Third wave? Time for a battle of the hashtags!
Miriam
August 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
What?
Adam Lee
August 18, 2012 at 5:42 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think A+ is a great idea. Who’s going to design a logo?
dogeared, spotted and foxed
August 18, 2012 at 5:43 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Might want to run it by the talent at Mad Art Lab.
elronxenu
August 18, 2012 at 5:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m with Jen and Gordon on this one. This talk of feminazis and femistazi is just ridiculous. The level of hate directed at Rebecca and Jen and now Surly Amy is appalling.
I’ve been an atheist for over 30 years now but identified as a skeptic for only 2-3. In that time I’ve come to realise that skepticism as a process and the scientific method are really central to figuring out what’s true, and therefore acting on a rational basis. Atheism is the result of applying skepticism to religion. Humanism is the result of applying skepticism to social issues.
Skeptics who say that the skeptical movement shouldn’t touch religion are guilty of being selectively skeptical. Most people who are not idiots know there’s no Bigfoot. I can’t say the same thing about Jesus Christ. Debunking Bigfoot causes little controversy, and perhaps that’s what these people want, but is it effective at encouraging people to be skeptical? By reaching the same conclusion they already reached for irrational reasons? Sometimes you have to shake the tree to get the good fruit.
The skeptical movement needs feminism applied to it. I haven’t been around long enough to witness the “old cis white dude” effect, but that wasn’t necessary – observing the level of hate directed at people who speak out in support of diversity and gender equality is enough.
I was once that privileged young white dude. I got schooled by a feminist. I didn’t like being “that guy”. Instead of doubling down on the stupid, I shut up and listened – for a year or more. I’m still doing it, doing far more listening than talking. I hope when I’m an old cis white dude, I won’t also be an asshole.
Kele Cable
August 18, 2012 at 5:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Agree 100%.
You, Rebecca Watson, PZ, Greg Laden, and the rest of FreethoughtBlogs have done an absolutely fantastic job in opening the movement’s eyes to the problem of privilege. I was never someone who would have done anything extreme (like a death threat, wtf?), and always believed in equality (duh, how could you not?), and would have even labeled myself a (weak) feminist despite being male, but the whole issue of privilege was something I had heard very little about until… Elevatorgate, probably. Now I’m fully aware of it (or I try to be anyway) and that’s definitely thanks to you and the rest named above. I didn’t even need convincing – it’s so frickin’ obvious. It’s just mind-boggling how this is even still an issue.
So when you say you believe you’re already winning, I think so too. Keep up the great work and let us know what we can do to help. Hopefully it’s just a matter of time before the atheist movement emerges as the most progressive group in the nation (and more than just a group that also happens to support same-sex marriage and abortion rights, but also supports full equality and other social justice issues).
P.S. I also like Pteryxx’s idea of A+ as a symbol.
Marvin
August 18, 2012 at 5:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Bravo! It’s definitely time for more a more progressive atheism.
gssilva
August 18, 2012 at 5:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You’re right, Jen. And you’re making me think I should stop being a lurker. I’ve been reading for years now, but I already had sexism fatigue even then… so, hi, nice to meetcha.
JDD
August 18, 2012 at 5:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And so the troops are being rallied for a final push against inequality within a movement that by its very nature should be promoting the greater good.
I applaud, and look forward to seeing the banner of victory, followed by moving on to face the forces that keep society from being the utopia it should be.
For any one person to be at their best, ALL people need to be at their best, for the most any one person can have is achieved through to collective potential of the entire human race united as one.
Faust
August 18, 2012 at 5:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I am completely for all of this.
I used to be a libertarian/randroid complementarian christian, and a lot of that stayed the same after I became an atheist. It’s only because of groups like the skepchicks and bloggers like you, Natalie, and Greta that I’ve given up the Randroid BS and have become more of an ally toward lgbt and feminist causes. The atheist community really helped educate me. Keep doing what you’re doing, Jen.
sc_7652aaec35290ba494db085863fd3b49
August 18, 2012 at 5:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think you hit it exactly right, Jen.
Have some guy, unsure facing the world, suddenly he makes a comment about how some bookum is bookum… and is suddenly a superhero. They start a blog or something decrying pyramid power or magnets or homeopathy and people flock to them. Until they make that one little comment, probably in joke. Now, the little pedestal they found themselves on is threatened. So they get defensive and worried. They get their gender and race called out, which is something uncomfortable (I once heard a teacher of mine say “Being white means that you don’t have to think about being white.”)
Nathair
August 18, 2012 at 5:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, I think you’ve achieved fractally right with this one.
I do think that “A+” rather smacks of gloating self-satisfaction though, shades of “Brights”.
trinioler
August 18, 2012 at 6:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I am for the A+ name as well. I’m going to start a Skeptics+ in the Pub in my local area. We have a nasty infestation of MRAs and other intolerable bigots.
BrianX
August 18, 2012 at 6:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Not gonna lie, it’s becoming a brutal fight. The best we can really hope to do is to keep pushing back against the evo psych garbage and the general attitude that prevents people from examining their own prejudices. Unfortunately, it looks like we’ll be stuck burning the motherfucker down and rebuilding.
Nathair
August 18, 2012 at 6:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And… somehow that ended up as a reply to willemref.
?!
carlie
August 18, 2012 at 6:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’M READY.
Nathair
August 18, 2012 at 6:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If needs must.
vexorian
August 18, 2012 at 6:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I just want to keep on believing that things will get better. The only requirement is to have more and more people speaking out. It is unfortunately a risk to do so, as it turns out. I have the most admiration to everyone doing so. It requires the true sort of bravery to go through all this BS just for the betterment of a community that at best is indifferent.
I would like A= better than A+.
'Tis Himself
August 18, 2012 at 6:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Who is Dennis?
carlie
August 18, 2012 at 6:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Can we just keep the A, and call the others A- ?
sphex
August 18, 2012 at 6:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fantastic post. And thank you for all you do. And count me in. And I like A+, too.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius
August 18, 2012 at 6:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sign me the fuck up for A+. I want a SurlyRamics necklace, like, yesterday. I have some mild graphic design/artistic skills, I’m going to see what I can come up with.
I like the A+ concept because it implies that the folks who are satisfied with A for “atheism” without the humanist values and the diversity are missing something. And they are.
Pteryxx
August 18, 2012 at 6:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
for what it’s worth, I thought some about A=, and I’m meh about that variant because various detractors so often claim “women are equal now!” or “there’s no racism now!” as an excuse to ignore the very real bigotry still going on all around them. I think of A+ as inviting the question “…plus what?” because there’s always going to be some form of privilege we don’t even know we’re espousing until we take the trouble to add it to our consideration. (Besides, A+ is catchy.) ~;>
HerbieTheBeagle
August 18, 2012 at 6:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you Jen, this is brilliant. (And A+ is a great idea for a symbol.)
Happiestsadist, opener of the Crack of Doom
August 18, 2012 at 6:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That is BRILLIANT.
Emily
August 18, 2012 at 6:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Words are important, and they should be used with care and clarity. What you’re describing isn’t the “atheist community” or “atheism.”
Jennifer, what you’re describing is a greater movement of secular humanism. Not atheism. Atheism is simply lack of god-belief, and muddling words to have atheism be anything more than just that, clouds & tarnishes the greater movement that you’re actually describing.
Frank
August 18, 2012 at 6:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You have my support Jen!
Kim Rippere
August 18, 2012 at 6:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree, entirely. The atheist and secular movement needs to grow and be inclusive. I am thrilled by the positive reponses I see above! We want change . . . Now let’s make it happen.
mcbender
August 18, 2012 at 6:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes. This. Exactly this.
I’m not sure what else to say, really.
lorigb
August 18, 2012 at 6:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, this post is fantastic and I’m behind you 100%.
Also, thinking of stitching a little + onto my red A patch on my backpack when I get home in a few months…
BrianX
August 18, 2012 at 6:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’d certainly like to see an alternative, but we’re arguing with people who take pride in thinking sticking to their prejudices is somehow a badge of rationality. And it’s not that far a leap from there to tinfoil hattery and/or Jacobinism — we’ve certainly seen quite a bit of the latter directed at people like PZ.
CanadianChick
August 18, 2012 at 6:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
yes, yes YES!!!
I want a Grand Canyon sized rift between me and misogynistic libertarian douchebags, please and thank you. I see the jerks on the “other side” harassing Rhys and Amy and PZ and Rebecca (and you) and I do NOT want them claiming to represent me. They’re not ‘future leaders’ (as one d-bag is called) of anything I’ll be part of.
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the FreethoughtBlogs Star Chamber
August 18, 2012 at 6:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Greater movement”? What “greater movement”?
Eric
August 18, 2012 at 6:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Awesome post, Jen. For a long time, your blog has opened my eyes to the fact that misogyny is, sadly, alive and well, even among atheists and skeptics. I’ve called myself an atheist for many years, but I didn’t start thinking of myself as a feminist until I started reading your blog (and I’m a guy!)
I’m with you all the way on this.
Oh, and +1 for “A+”.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius
August 18, 2012 at 6:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ denotes lack of god-belief that is the result of critical thinking and skeptical inquiry.
Critical thinking and skeptical inquiry, applied to questions of social inequality, lead inevitably to recognition of privilege and the need to fix inequality.
Of course there are people who are atheists because nobody ever taught them about gods, or because all their friends are atheists and it seems cool.
But they’re hardly going to be organizing any sustained campaigns for social change, are they?
Personally, I believe in A+, progressive skepticism, or whatever you want to call it, because I passionately believe that EVERY person should be taught critical thinking and have access to the tools that skeptical thinking provides. In order to do that successfully, you have to take into account where people are at, what their experiences are, what their interests and most pressing problems are. Thus, in order to succeed, organized skepticism must embrace diversity.
Voila.
Pteryxx
August 18, 2012 at 6:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Also, “equality” gets thrown around as “no affirmative action!” and “men have it just as bad!” *headshake*
…Hey, how could I forget that the symbol for female is a circle with a + on it! (And if you combine the pointy triangle A+ with an overlapping female symbol, you get a sort of +IDIC…)
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the FreethoughtBlogs Star Chamber
August 18, 2012 at 6:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I come home from this week’s pro-choice demonstrations, where I was introduced to Operation Rescue North, and find this.
Thank you, Jen, for articulating so clearly that skepticism does not stop at Bigfoot-bashing or Christ-crushing.
Happiestsadist, opener of the Crack of Doom
August 18, 2012 at 6:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hell yes!
John S. Wilkins
August 18, 2012 at 6:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well said, Jen. Support from a non-joiner in the antipodes.
Jim
August 18, 2012 at 6:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fuck yes. I listened to Rebecca Watson at Skepchicon (aka CONvergence) this year on a panel about harassment, and it was appalling. All of the panelists had the same, or worse, stories to tell. Why are we letting this happen? I don’t even understand the mindset that lies behind this. It needs to end.
ajeffri
August 18, 2012 at 6:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This, exactly.
Count me in.
John S. Wilkins
August 18, 2012 at 6:25 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh, and my suggestion for a label: Affirmative Atheism.
vexorian
August 18, 2012 at 6:25 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Awesome needed words.
The community needs to be skeptical of itself. When we apply critical thinking to itself, it is really difficult to run away from the truth, that there is a big issue among us. All those people who crash on media reports about the TAM sexual policy controversy trying to convince outsiders about how there is no problem. I bet that some of them are well-intentioned, but they are not being good skeptics if they really think it is more important to protect the community’s image over the community’s own members.
Edwin
August 18, 2012 at 6:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi Jen,
I think this post brings up an absolutely excellent point and I hope you don’t mind, but I took that point and sort of ran with it at my own blog.
I think the idea that social justice issues in general and feminism in particular aren’t topics that intersect with skepical inquiry is absolutely ridiculous.
The tools of skeptical inquiry should be used to shed light on issues of social justice – how are questions of sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia not empirical claims? If some guy tells me that ‘women are totally not discriminated against or oppressed in society’, is he not making a claim about the world – a claim that is absolutely testable? Also, how does it make sense for a movement – and the conferences the movement spawns – to ignore the requests of its members who think that maybe people might feel more comfortable if they knew that the movement was looking out for their safety?
It’s a pretty sad statement about a movement that some of its most strongly expressed passion is reserved for attacking its own members – those who dare to speak out on issues that matter to them.
BrianX
August 18, 2012 at 6:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Tell them that. Especially the libertarians.
Glendon Mellow
August 18, 2012 at 6:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fantastic post Jen!
fronkey
August 18, 2012 at 6:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Brilliant, except that the RDF has used A+ for their Atheists Giving Aid campaign. That’s not to say it’s necessarily off limits…
Pteryxx
August 18, 2012 at 6:33 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oo! “Affirmative atheism” works too. (h/t John S. Wilkins above) What do y’all think, does anyone even remember what “affirmative action” is anymore?
Utakata
August 18, 2012 at 6:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m in.
trinioler
August 18, 2012 at 6:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey Pteryxx, I’m going to be doing a Skeptics+ In the Pub locally.
Utakata
August 18, 2012 at 6:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
PS: Brilliantly said, Jen!!!
Georgia Sam
August 18, 2012 at 6:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Like x 1000. Another excellent post. People have threatened to contact your employers & “expose” you as a feminist? Seriously? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but I hadn’t heard that one before. Anyway, for what it’s worth, please count me as a supporter of “third wave” atheism, whether that name or some other ultimately sticks.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius
August 18, 2012 at 6:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jadehawk came up with “intersectional atheism” and she was designing logos before it was even cool.
http://jadehawks.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/fematheism2.png
https://twitter.com/IamJadehawk/status/236999907880341504
Elerena
August 18, 2012 at 6:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Too ****ing right it’s time!
And on a personal note… Jen, I don’t think I can ever say how much what you do has meant for me. Your blog was essentially my introduction to modern feminism, and it’s where I learned to notice and recognize my own privilege. You, and the people I got linked to and introduced to from you, are how I learned to educate myself on the things that really were happening- and why they mattered. You’ve made an incredible difference in my life, and… just wanted to say thank you for that.
nicole introvert
August 18, 2012 at 6:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“I’m working with others to hopefully start an atheist/skeptical organization specifically focused on issues of equality.”
DO IT!!!! Where do I sign up?!?!
Dave
August 18, 2012 at 6:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The ‘A’ logo and the female gender logo ‘+’ added to it?
Lindsay
August 18, 2012 at 6:42 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m so “in” for this. The faux-enlightened lolbertarian dudebro atmosphere kept me from getting really involved in both the atheist and skeptic groups in college, and now that I’ve graduated, I really feel like I missed out. Well, no more!
Eric RoM
August 18, 2012 at 6:43 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
IMO, this is a case of “sow the whirlwind”. For years the skeptic/atheist movement had as prominent spokespeople men who could truly and safely be classified as “assholes”.
Surprise surprise! They created a harbor not just for the skeptical, but those of the asshole persuasion. Who could’ve possibly foreseen that? {/snark}
Over and over again this past year, kerfuffles have emerged with overtones of “how COULD this certified skeptic be such a jerk/sexist/racist/my-own-ox-gorer?” Or shorter, “who expected human behaviour in our little clubhouse?”
This ludicrous coffee-smelling is overdue. Those thousands who called your heroes assholes and pigs were not mistaken: they were and are. And they emboldened the lesser a&ps that you now have to deal with at your cons as the cockroaches of your movement.
Lookit that, the law of unintended consequences arises again. This fish stinks from the head. Maybe Myers has some biology metaphor he can deploy. Oh wait: he’s part of the problem.
Elaine
August 18, 2012 at 6:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Delurking to add my approval of the A+ symbol. Brilliant. We need to make this happen. Who’s a graphic designer?
Great post, Jen! You voiced exactly what I’ve been thinking.
Jafafa Hots
August 18, 2012 at 6:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yep.
urielmaimon
August 18, 2012 at 6:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is my first time posting on an atheist blog. I’ve always been a devout (?) Atheist, and a progressive – but I’ve never wanted to get my hands “dirty” by going to conferences, getting involved in the community or being active outside my circle of friends and acquaintances.
Part of the reason is that I’ve always felt that atheism is a political and intellectual problem, not something where a “circle-jerk” of community is something that appealed to me. I’ve always had the fortune of having a circle of friends who were secular and I wasn’t bothered by religion except at the level of the country where I lived in.
But this is different, and this post really moved me. Feminism and equality and equal opportunities is one of the reasons why it’s important for me to be an atheist, more so than even science education. If we cannot have the majority of humans (lest we forget that women are the majority) live up to their full potential without fear and with equal opportunities, then we have failed as a society. We have failed as human beings. If men cannot relate to women as human beings rather than sexual appliances, then we men have failed our society. We men have failed as human beings. This is a cause I can join and be vocal in.
Laurence
August 18, 2012 at 6:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Very nice post. I have no suggestions for a name.
Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent
August 18, 2012 at 6:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you so much, Tycha, for your hard work. Women like us stand on the shoulders of women like you, and we are convincing men and we are making progress, even if it is hard to see. I cannot express my appreciation for the work that women like you have put in. I promise it is not meaningless. My sister-in-law, who is going to be an engineer and who aspires, though Air Force ROTC, to be in NASA, has a lot to owe to women like you.
Please don’t despair. Thank you.
'Tis Himself
August 18, 2012 at 6:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wouldn’t F be more appropriate?
VeritasKnight
August 18, 2012 at 6:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey Jen,
Without you, I wouldn’t identify with the atheist movement the way I do. I also wouldn’t identify as a feminist. I wouldn’t notice privilege the way I do, and I wouldn’t be trying to change and monitor my behaviour and speech and thought patterns. I wouldn’t think the way I think today.
I guess what you could say is that the Blaghag blog has changed my life, and made me a better person. I’d also say that I’m happy to still consider you a friend, and a role model. I’m glad your form of atheism is the kind I learned to subscribe to.
Keep doing it. It makes a difference. And let me know, let us know, what you need us to do to help.
carlie
August 18, 2012 at 6:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t think that would be a good idea. It’s not just feminism – atheism is exceedingly white, too, and one problem feminism has had (and still has) is ignoring the needs of minority groups. I’d like to see enhanced atheism not make that mistake right out of the gate, and try to be inclusive of all kinds of diversity.
One Thousand Needles
August 18, 2012 at 6:49 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+, adapted from the Zapfino A
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the FreethoughtBlogs Star Chamber
August 18, 2012 at 6:49 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wow, seriously?
That’s not only wrong, it’s fucking low. You’re comparing PZ to people who don’t want anti-harassment policies. That’s…I have no fucking clue where you get off saying that.
adamcasey
August 18, 2012 at 6:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post, however I do come away with the same questions I always do when reading about feminism in atheism. I have never been a woman at a con, nor have I ever seen a serious statistical analysis of reports of harassment. I have exactly no evidence on which to base a judgement of the seriousness of this problem. This is why I worry about passages like:
“I don’t feel safe as a woman in this community – and I feel less safe than I do as a woman in science, or a woman in gaming, or hell, as a woman walking down the fucking sidewalk.”
That is great rhetoric, I get a good sense of how serious you consider this issue to be. What I don’t know reading this is how much more than rhetoric it is. In fact are you safer from abuse or attack at a con or the sidewalk. Your male readers have no way of knowing this. If in fact that passage is a good representation of how safe women actually are then the solution needed is radically different than if the problem is online trolls making everything less pleasant and creating fear and intimidation. I do not know the nature of the problem because I have never encountered any serious data about it. Equality of course ought to be a key part of the atheist movement, but I have no idea what that means in terms of practical policies.
Paddy
August 18, 2012 at 6:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Dead on, Jen. Let’s see if we can move past this ugly period in the movement.
I doubt I’ll ever understand what it is the haters are so afraid of. I’ll NEVER understand how some people think a rape or death threat is acceptable!
Aurelia
August 18, 2012 at 6:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hear, hear!
I’m in! I’ve been “in” for a while now. It’s good to hear a leader of the movement speak up about this! I’m behind you all the way!
Pen
August 18, 2012 at 6:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Can we do economic justice as well please? Because there’s a branch of knowledge that’s rotten to the core, that’s as tough to figure out as science and that’s still stuck in the dark ages and full of superstition. Plus, it entangles with social privilege and questions of equality to a very great extent.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius
August 18, 2012 at 6:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The only way this could possibly be true is if you consider all of the women who have personally testified about experiencing harassment to be liars.
carlie
August 18, 2012 at 6:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Are you serious? Please, stop opining and listen more.
If women in the movement are saying “there’s a large contingent of assholes making me feel like shit in this movement”, what else exactly do you think you need? THAT’S ENOUGH TO CHANGE THINGS IF YOU WANT WOMEN IN YOUR MOVEMENT. But if you don’t care, by all means, keep saying you need statistics on how many instances of each finely-dissected level of harassment happen at atheist/skeptic events.
carlie
August 18, 2012 at 6:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Then it’s a good thing that other people do, have already discussed it at length, and many organizations and organization leaders have already decided on and enacted such policies, isn’t it?
Smhll
August 18, 2012 at 6:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m ready. I like A+, I like Atheism for All. I’m trying to think of a mathematical operator that represents inclusion. I sort of think the “at” sign of an encircled lowercase “a” has some potential.
Jafafa Hots
August 18, 2012 at 6:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Regarding logos, the one reason I never got one of those stupid “A” shirts is because of the name underneath it.
Nothing against Dawkins per se, but being an atheist and signifying that I am seemed to have little to do with promoting someone’s book sales or website.
I found it very cult-of-personality-ish. I always thought it seemed a little bit egotistical to have a group named after yourself.
A person should have the humility to not name anything after themselves or allow something to be named after them (instead of after the goal or focus) until they’re good and properly dead.
A logo that doesn’t define me as one person’s fan or admirer would be nice. I don’t do the hero worship thing. And that was my feeling BEFORE the whole “Muslima” thing.
dogeared, spotted and foxed
August 18, 2012 at 6:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@ adamcasey – Go read this:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/16/the-campaign-against-amy-davis-roth/
It will give you a fairly good idea of what it is like to be a woman at a con. Not just any woman but one who raised thousands of dollars for that con.
rapscallion
August 18, 2012 at 7:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I was aware of the Watson story and I was deeply disappointed with Dawkins reported reaction to it. But this wave of vitriolic hatred towards women is extreemly shocking. I want to know other freethinkers but I have no interest in associating myself with a pack of backwards knuckle dragging thugs. I have even saving money for a couple years now because one of my goals was to attend TAM, hopefully before Randi leaves us. However I’m no longer sure I want to go after reading more details about this anti-feminist shit-storm. It’s highly discouraging.
Nick Johnson
August 18, 2012 at 7:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post! You definitely cited the answers to a lot of things I had just heard through the grapevine and now I not only feel more informed but more empowered!
The highest mountain in the world still isn’t high enough to give you the highest of high fives you deserve for just being you.
Improbable Joe
August 18, 2012 at 7:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
… only the people who already hate us?
strange gods before me ॐ
August 18, 2012 at 7:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree, Pen.
Btw, Pharyngula Wiki has a page on economics; if you’ve got any links to add to it, please do.
I’m trying to link to the page for you, but it’s getting caught in the spamtrap. Should be easy to find via google, though.
~G~
August 18, 2012 at 7:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This mystery of the invisible Dennis is cracking me up. I needed a laugh today. :)
Stacy
August 18, 2012 at 7:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jennifer is right, Tycha. If you compare where we’re at with where we’d like to be, of course sometimes it feels like nothing has changed.
But that’s simply not true. A lot has changed. Social change happens slowly relative to a single human lifetime (usually, though upheavals do happen.) But it happens. Look at the big picture, and you’ll see how far we’ve come.
Don’t give up.
“The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice.” –Martin Luther King
NateHevens
August 18, 2012 at 7:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I agree 100% with you Jen. It is absolutely time for a new movement. These MRA assholes and misogynists are mind-boggling and, frankly, unwelcome. I don’t get them and I never will. And I do think it’s time to kick them out, build our own thing, and move on from them. They are the old. We’re the new.
Let’s bring it.
As for a name… I like A+, but what about Humanism? Isn’t that what it is? Atheism/Skepticism + Human Rights = Humanism?
What I like about A+, though… when I finally get my tattoo, I can use the simple + to denote my attachment to the new movement.
But whatever the name is, just come up with a name and a tattooable logo before I get my tattoo… one that’ll fit with my tattoo design (The first half of my last name, Heven, stylized like the Batman symbol, with the atheist atom symbol off the bottom of the V as the “stone”, completing my full last name, “Hevenstone”).
And one other thing:
TychaBrahe @ #23… I can’t believe I’m saying this, considering how much of a cynic/misanthrope I am, but you are not a failure. Chances are, you gave all those kids a chance to live their dreams. You did good with them. And we will do good moving forward. I’m going against every bone in my body, but I have a tiny bit of optimism for this. I think it could actually work.
Josh, Official SpokesGay
August 18, 2012 at 7:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I haven’t read any of the comments yet because it’s important to say this without being distracted by bullshit.
I’m totally in with your third wave, Jen. Count me among the troops. This post is so good I wish I could hug you right now and we don’t even know each other.
Stacy
August 18, 2012 at 7:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Just don’t call him “old woman.” He hates that.
Midnight Rambler
August 18, 2012 at 7:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
On the bright side, it took nearly 100 comments, and almost two hours, for the first idiotic comment to show up. I guess that’s a sort-of good sign compared to normal?
And while I’m here – I hate to be redundant with all the other commenters, but this was a much-needed and welcome post Jen, I wholeheartedly agree!
Jen Peeples
August 18, 2012 at 7:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post, Jen. Count me in!
I’ve always been a feminist, even before I knew there was a word for it, but there have been a few events in my life that I’d consider radicalizing. One was entering active duty in the Army as a combat arms officer. The other was a few years ago when I realized how many atheist men were willing to marginalize women, minorities, LGBT people, etc., and how many in those groups were willing to aid and abet their own marginalization.
I think it’s time for a third wave of atheism and a fourth wave of feminism. Each group – both atheists and feminists – is a natural constituency for the other. Let’s make this happen. We can do this.
Nathair
August 18, 2012 at 7:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
At least they spelled Myers correctly, that’s refreshing.
christopherhunter
August 18, 2012 at 7:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Nicely said.
Douglas Kirk
August 18, 2012 at 7:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I want to add another voice to the chorus. I am just starting to get involved with my local groups, but I will be pushing for A+ (like it) or Affirmative Atheism (also like it) in my neck of the woods. I want to say, I appreciate greatly the efforts you, Greta, PZ and so many others have put forth to get some much needed rifts into the atheist community. Your words are an inspiration to this former blind to privilege atheist.
v1ctor1a
August 18, 2012 at 7:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This a hundred times this! I’ve been horrified at all of the sexism I’ve been hearing about with in this movement! Who the hell finds anti-harassment policies controversial, for fsm sake!?
I think an important thing to look at is the student groups. The group I’m a part of is about 1/3 women. 4 of the 8 board members are women, 2 are minority races, and the vast majority of men in our group are awesome and welcoming and some I’d wager would self identify as feminists or at least allies. So yes, the larger community has issues we need to work on but the students now are the future of the movement and we are more diverse and more welcoming towards minority atheists and I truly believe what we’re seeing of the bigoted atheists is really on its way out.
Alyson Miers
August 18, 2012 at 7:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think the movement has already tarnished itself well beyond anything Jen could do to it.
callistacat
August 18, 2012 at 7:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This post is so amazing!
Thank you Jen for cutting through all the crap
and being such an inspiration!
ChasCPeterson
August 18, 2012 at 7:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
‘secular humanism’.
Can you read?
Stacy
August 18, 2012 at 7:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m in. And for the rest, they’d better start swimmin’ or they’ll sink like a stone.
Beth
August 18, 2012 at 7:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Huzzah! Thank you, Jen.
Chris Ho-Stuart
August 18, 2012 at 7:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Full support. Well said.
Rifts in a group when we have problems like this are essential. They are healthy.
ChasCPeterson
August 18, 2012 at 7:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ll stand up in support of this post too.
Rock on, man.
alexdavis
August 18, 2012 at 7:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You have stated the issues perfectly. I completely agree with you. The atheist movement needs to change; it needs to grow.
Chana Messinger
August 18, 2012 at 7:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Same!
Trebuchet
August 18, 2012 at 7:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As a 60+, well-off, straight white male, all I can say is: You’re Awesome!
That’s exactly what I started thinking about halfway through your post. I hope we’re right.
Mimi
August 18, 2012 at 7:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*applauds*
A+ sounds fantastic. I don’t normally make comments, but I just had to thank you for such a wonderful post. You are inspiring.
Tom Foss
August 18, 2012 at 7:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m on-board, Jen. As to the proposed names/symbols:
*I think “A+” is far and away the best. Not only is it pithy, positive, and recognizable, it also dovetails nicely with PZ’s whole “not just dictionary atheists” meme. Only downsides are the apparent concurrent use by RDF, which someone mentioned above, and the possible American-centricness of it. I’m clueless: do other countries use/have familiarity with the letter-based grading system that puts “A+” at the top?
*”A=” is probably a little more to the point than “A+,” but suffers in that the only thing I can think of that uses the “A=” notation is “A=A,” the law of identity, which I’ve seen used as Objectivist jargon. The upside is that the symbol could be really easy, just a capital “A” with two cross-bars.
*”Affirmative Atheism” is just begging for jokes/derision. “Affirmative Action,” for all the benefits (and parallels) is largely seen as something that gives unearned benefits to minorities. I’d think the last thing we’d want is to suggest that minority atheists aren’t just as deserving of a place in the movement as the straight white cisgendered able-bodied male ones.
*”Progressive Atheism” and “Intersectional Atheism” are okay, but seem kind of jargon-y.
*”Humanism” is great, but doesn’t necessarily emphasize the point of “atheism plus social justice.”
Peter N
August 18, 2012 at 7:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thanks for a great post, Jen. I’m with you 100%.
I’m fine with “Affirmative Atheism” and the A+ symbol. But I like your idea of “third-wave atheism” and I think that would be a fine name for the movement as well.
~G~
August 18, 2012 at 7:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
100x yes. For every finger pointing outward there needs to be one just as big pointing at ourselves. That’s hard. But needs to be done before anyone should be thinking of giving themselves any medals. A blog/podcast and book I really like (haven’t read book, but DH has) is http://youarenotsosmart.com/ (a celebration of self-delusion) He has a post on the just world fallacy which I think drives a lot of victim blaming and libertarian type world views.
Peter
August 18, 2012 at 7:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Awesome post, and necessary.
How about A++ as a logo? To computer nerds that suggests that it is the next step, and I think that’s appropriate.
Nick
August 18, 2012 at 7:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As a longtime lurker I thank you for this, but more importantly my two month old daughter will be thanking you in the future. You’re amazing, Jen.
adam.b
August 18, 2012 at 7:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t have anything to add so I’ll just say that I’m sick of this crap and I’m totally with you.
LawnBoy
August 18, 2012 at 7:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Rock on, Jen!
Let’s do this.
~G~
August 18, 2012 at 7:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The thing I like about Affirmative Atheism is it both alludes to affirmative action in the sense that everyone is welcome, (although that has baggage as you hinted at), but more so, affirmative such as it is positive and inspiring. What do atheists get criticized so often for? For being against something and not offering anything positive. (A claim I both understand but also find lame). Nevertheless, maybe this hits the mark in the way, “brights” missed.
Lyn M: Necrodunker of death, nothing but net
August 18, 2012 at 7:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wonderful post, Jen. You nailed it. Please count me in, too.
When I think of A+ as a logo, I can see the plus above the A, like a guiding star or a goal we are headed for.
On the other hand, third wave Atheism, I can see three A’s, small one on the left, pale blue, larger one in the middle, medium blue, largest on the left, strong blue.
Now if only I could manage actual images.
Nicholas Sanders
August 18, 2012 at 7:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post. Count me in for the next wave as this current wave is becoming intolerable.
Jadehawk
August 18, 2012 at 7:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I love this idea to bits, and I’m going to continue nagging you for a non-leadership (is there such a thing as leadership-apprenticing?) position in this future organization of yours ;-)
anyway, some ideas. first, my old design for Intersectional Atheism
and simplified
and two ideas for A+ logos
(in case you didn’t know, this is how I procrastinate work :-p )
Ella
August 18, 2012 at 7:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m an agnostic rather than an athiest, but can I join? I like social change. It’s invigorating.
(Also, I bake chocolate cupcakes.)
mandrellian
August 18, 2012 at 7:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, you rock. Count this Oz male in.
Atheists and skeptics DO need to progress, we DO need to be about more than quackery and Genesis and we DO need to recognise, publicise and criticise when certain of our number act like irredeemable arseholes.
If someone can’t apply skepticism to themselves or their privilege or their own behaviour, we don’t need or want them.
paleomancer
August 18, 2012 at 8:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
De-lurked with my fist in the air.
Gregory in Seattle
August 18, 2012 at 8:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This, right here.
jillpoke
August 18, 2012 at 8:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you. This post is just awesome. Heck ya I’m in!
Jessica
August 18, 2012 at 8:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I never comment on atheist blogs because I’m too afraid to bring up these issues. I’ve seen the responses they get. Thank you SO MUCH for being willing to speak up about this, even with the harassment you get in return.
Ibis3, member of the Oppressed Sisterhood fanclub
August 18, 2012 at 8:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes.
And thank you.
strange gods before me ॐ
August 18, 2012 at 8:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I suggest using no adjectives or other verbal modifiers.
It’s a rhetorical trap. (Visual signals like the ones Jadehawk uses for feminism+atheism are excellent — they’ll do the work of signaling our presence to each other. With descriptive alt-text for screen readers.)
A minor but important victory will come when the misogynists and racists start complaining that the word atheism has become so contaminated with progressive connotations that they don’t want to self-identify as atheists anymore. “Blech! Atheism is too feminist! We need a new word!”
That will probably not happen if we use some kind of [adjective] atheism.
They’ll always be able to say “I’m just an atheist. I’m not an [adjective] atheist. I don’t need anything else.”
And that kind of “purist” self-identification is very attractive to naive people (here naive is not intended as a pejorative; there are always people who are new to atheism and who may, in the beginning, feel overwhelmed by the Deep Rifts; we want to appeal to the new and naive people).
If we brand ourselves as a subtype then we’ll always remain a subtype. We want to be the ones who, if you’re a misogynist and you don’t want to be confused for us, you’ll have to apply an adjective to yourself. We don’t want to be a subtype. We want to be the type.
Fizzing thru da Fizzics
August 18, 2012 at 8:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
One of the reasons I lurk is the overpowering urge to scream when reading some of the utter bilge people of the slightest difference are subjected to for daring to have … whatever, that is different from the perceived “mainstream ideal”.
Thank you Jen, Sally, Greta, PZ et al for turning this ageing, cis white blah blah guy into a feminist.
Go the new whachawecallums!
Cubist
August 18, 2012 at 8:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Like the “A+” idea. Don’t really like the Zapfino-derived “A+” logo. That font has a pile of built-in elegance, and the derived logo kinda breaks that elegance. So here’s my shot at designing an “A+” logo:
http://cubist.on-rev.com/atheism/Atheism-plus-logo.gif
And here’s the Photoshop file from which I generated said gif:
http://cubist.on-rev.com/atheism/Atheism-plus.logo.psd
Am willing to collaborate with others on this. My email is [ cubist[at]aol[dot]com ].
Quietmarc
August 18, 2012 at 8:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Start with sexism in the general public first. Atheism is a subset of society at large, and there are HUNDREDS of good, reliable sources in several fields (sociology, psychology, economics, political science, anthropology, neuroscience….) that demonstrate that sexism (and other forms of intolerance) is a) real and b) a problem.
Once you have a grounding in the basics of social justice, you’ll be better able to contribute to the discussion. It’s really not difficult: go to your favourite search engine or online library and search for “sexism” and you’ll have enough reading material to keep you busy for years.
When people join a discussion like this and start asking for evidence (implying that there is none), they come off as a derailer, troll, or at best an ignorant noob who hasn’t done their homework. There is TONNES of evidence that sexism is a problem in general society and NO EVIDENCE that atheism and scepticism are somehow immune.
dcortesi
August 18, 2012 at 8:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Went out to supper and could not stop thinking about this.
The A+ just crystallizes all the things Jen said, and more.
Henceforth let this be THE A-PLUS MANIFESTO!
The concept gets Atheism out of the negativity trap.
What do you atheists do, besides sitting around not-praying, eh?
Well, we are
Atheists plus we care about women’s rights,
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we protest racism when we see it,
Atheists plus we contest stupidity in the public arena…
Atheist-plus is a great identity to adopt, a great banner to rally under.
PDX_Greg
August 18, 2012 at 8:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t usually post this far down (100s plus) as I figure it will never get read, but, YAAAAYY anyway! Well said! I am so ashamed of all the self-absorbed “rational” thinkers in the athiest movement (almost all men) that can’t exercise the few neurons necessary to see through the veneer of their own privileged ignorance. It bothers me more that the privilege shown by other groups because atheists, rationalists, and skeptics can’t hide behind the thousands of years of patriarchal legacy to claim support for their ignorance. THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
I’m starting to think that privilege is like a million-mile-long band-aid. It takes forever to rip it away, and the person it is attached to turns into a quivering infantile ball of retaliatory scream.
Quietmarc
August 18, 2012 at 8:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m in. This post is what I believe.
And I’m gonna add, my heart sank when I saw there were almost 150 responses because I was expecting the usual. The fact that the HUGE majority of these comments are people I would be proud to consider allies in this kind of movement has completely made my day.
lujlp
August 18, 2012 at 8:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m sorry but there is a reason feminists don’t do well in the ‘skeptic’ community. They aren’t all that skeptic and view any criticism no matter how mild as an attack on them personally, on their sex in general, and as sort of some plot to destroy feminism.
Take Skepchick for example, sells erotic photos of herself, complains that people (read MEN, disgusting men) view her in the sexual manner she sold herself in. Then gets pissed and equates being asked out in an elevator to being raped though technically the guy did EXACTLY as she asked and waited until the conference was over to hit on her.
And might I say this is a perfect example of why many men in general don’t like feminism or feminists. They come in try to shift the agenda from an atheist one to a feminist one, and then turn around and cry harassment because others dare to DISAGREE with them
And as far as the how the ‘anal rape of a 15yr old jokes’ thing goes I’ll repost my analysis of it once again
There weren’t hundreds of rape jokes as Watson asserted there were maybe ten, most of the hundreds of comments were saying the jokes went to far REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT THE GIRL HERSELF MADE A JOKE ABOUT HER ASS FIRST, another point Watson failed to mention.
Watson also went on to claim that such comments were typical for atheists and men in general. Slight problem with that claim as well as I personally clicked on the profile links of scores of commenter’s on that thread. Want to know what I discovered? Of the 60 or so profiles I looked at not one, NOT A SINGLE SOLITARY ONE, had any gender or religiously identifying info.
Watson had no way of knowing whether the commenter’s were atheists or men, she just made the assumption. And anyone who disagreed was “sexist” and “harassing”
My comment on Watson website highlighting the fact that she assumed facts not in evidence never got pasted the ‘moderation’ phase.
Feminist skeptics don’t do well in the community because the freak out the moment anyone starts applying the same skepticism to their dogma. Are their jerks and harasser and sexists? Of course there are, there are some in every movement, even the feminist movement. The leader of NY-NOW claimed all kindergarden boys were gangrapists becuase a drunken 60 year senator supposrted Obama over Clinton in the democratic primary. Went on to remark how he owed women because they looked the other way when he left somone to drown in acar at the bottom of a river.
But most of the “harassing” memes are typically overblown, misreported, misattributed, second and third hand stories which are taken at face value for no other reason than another feminist said so.
And ‘someone else told me’ just doesn’t cut it in the skeptic community. No exceptions for marginally hot chicks in particular or feminism (or any other beliefs system) in general.
If you cant handle that, then log off the internet
Fizzing thru da Fizzics
August 18, 2012 at 8:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Take your own advice – cheers
Adam
August 18, 2012 at 8:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Excellent post, Jen. Things like this are why you are my favorite blogger.
Lavvie
August 18, 2012 at 8:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wow, this post is exactly what I’ve needed! I’ve been getting pretty discouraged lately because of the whole sexual harassment drama and calls for change like this give me hope of what the secular movement can become.
bad Jim
August 18, 2012 at 8:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
More cheers.
Atheism isn’t the only boys’ club struggling with this problem. Bruce Schneier noted this week that it surfaced at Defcon in Las Vegas, and Maria Farell wrote about the phenomenon at an ICANN conference. The good news is that these aren’t exclusively boys’ clubs any longer and there is a growing recognition that everyone is going to have to grow up.
Robert B.
August 18, 2012 at 8:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you for sharing.
Gregory in Seattle
August 18, 2012 at 8:25 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree strongly with what you wrote, with one exception. This new wave… let’s come up with some other name than “atheist.”
“Atheism” is (depending on the definition one prefers) the lack of belief in god(s) or the belief in a lack of god(s). Atheism itself make no mention of feminism or misogyny. No mention of equality or bigotry. No mention of social justice or class warfare. It takes no stand on homophobia or prejudice or hate. And as we keep seeing, over and over and over again, this is a problem.
“Freethought” has its advantages, but it is a philosophical world view that emphasizes rationality and logic. But while freethinkers are often agnostics or atheists, there have been many freethinkers of faith as well. And while rational, logical arguments can be made in support of treating one another with respect and fairness, such values are not inherent in freethought.
I like the term “humanism,” but it is too broad. Humanism is a set of values, and anyone who embraces those values — even devout theists — are welcomed in the Humanist fold.
If you were to draw a Venn diagram showing the overlap of atheism and freethought and humanism, this new wave would be within the intersection of all three areas. People who held this worldview would stand in opposition to theocracy and superstition, call upon others to exercise their ability to think and understand, and emphasize values of equality and social justice.
So, anyone have any suggestions for a name?
neatospiderplant
August 18, 2012 at 8:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great post Jen! Count me in!
ChasCPeterson
August 18, 2012 at 8:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
the adjective is ‘skeptical’.
oh, and by the way, you are an ignorant jackass.
Robert B.
August 18, 2012 at 8:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Aw, someone already did the “and my axe” joke…
But yeah, you’re describing a movement that my heart is already in. Let’s go, let’s do this.
maddog1129
August 18, 2012 at 8:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Brava!
~G~
August 18, 2012 at 8:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes, like a wave of nausea.
Ouigui
August 18, 2012 at 8:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Rebecca Watson saying “Guys, don’t do that” is totally the same thing as what you just claimed she did. Oh, wait, no it’s not.
Credibility, you haz none.
strange gods before me ॐ
August 18, 2012 at 8:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I meant to post this as a reply.
cethis
August 18, 2012 at 8:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve been very disappointed in the skeptical movement the past year. I’m all for A+ or even Skeptical Humanism.
Skepticism is a tool. There should be a movement or branch that uses it to guide progressive causes. We can’t let the haters take control of skepticism.
Thanks for writing this, Jen. I’m in too!
~G~
August 18, 2012 at 8:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is an example of what I’ve hated most about this abuse. When I see women being harassed for making simple statements asserting their own viewpoint, it is directed at *all* women. I’ve spent over 5 years active in the atheist/skeptical movement and I now wonder, what if I ever get a bigger platform? How will I be treated? Damn if I’ll give it all up because of that, but I feel like saying, “I am Rebecca Watson.” “I am Surly Amy.” Dramatic sounding, but there is a real chilling effect on women everywhere when this happens. The subtext is, “and let that be a lesson to all of you ladies before you get any crazy ideas.”
kaboobie
August 18, 2012 at 8:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I was out at a theater performance tonight and checked Twitter during intermission to see that Greta had linked to this post. I clicked through to read it, and in the midst of a crowded, noisy theater lobby I wanted to scream, “F*** yeah!”
Thank you, Jen. You have my unwavering support.
John S. Wilkins
August 18, 2012 at 8:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Nice. I may play with some Illustrator-Fu for a while…
mandrellian
August 18, 2012 at 8:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
147: It’s telling that the bulk of your comment here on Jennifer’s blog is to further demonise Rebecca Watson, instead of engaging with the points Jennifer (the owner of the blog, in case your Skepchick tunnel-vision had obscured that fact) raised, or the abundant links she included. The rest of your post appears to be general MRA butthurt bullshit assertions, unsupported by anything and bordering on incoherent irrelevance.
What this tells me is that you’re yet another adolescent jackass still fucking obsessed with Rebecca Watson two years on, as if she personally opened the gates of Men’s Hell herself by suggesting that hitting on a woman at 4am in an enclosed space after she’s said clearly and publicly that she’s going to bed might not be the best way to introduce yourself.
The only thing unskeptical about this situation is the creationist-level mental gymnastics required on the part of commenters like yourself to continue to demonise women in the face of reams and reams of evidence that what they are saying about douchebags in atheist-land is undeniably true.
Joe
August 18, 2012 at 8:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Let’s have a look at how wrong you are:
For starters, Skepchick != Rebecca Watson. Second, someone selling erotic photos of themself doesn’t give people permission to treat them in a sexual manner anytime people feel like it (just like how giving consent once doesn’t mean it is automatically given at all later times). Also, where did Rebecca equate the elevator thing to being raped? From what I recall, all she said was “Guys, don’t do that”.
Going through Rebecca’s post about it, I count about 20 rape jokes. Going to the reddit article in question, I count more. That, however, is pretty much beside the point – how low do you have to go if you defense is “oh, there were only ten rape jokes, so it’s ok.” The joke the poster made is also irrelevant – saying she brought it on herself is just victim blaming.
The assumption that most of the posters were atheists and men was pretty well supported – it was the atheism subreddit, so a lot of the posters will be atheists, and the nature of the jokes make it pretty clear they were written by men.
Um, did you read, I don’t know, any of the links Jen posted. Or any of any of the posts linked to in those? There are many tales of harrassment out there, and that is why they are taken seriously, because many, many women have reported being harrassed. So, it isn’t so much a case of ‘someone else told me’ as it is ‘This large list of people, many with supporting evidence, have told me’
redleg
August 18, 2012 at 8:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
100% support from this straight white guy. I blew the whistle on workplace sexual harassment a number of years ago and paid a steep price (whistleblower protection laws are essentially a joke, BTW), so dear readers don’t underestimate how difficult this task is.
But it is the right thing to do.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 18, 2012 at 8:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You were expecting it would be a condiment?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 18, 2012 at 8:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Unfortunately “A=” invites confusion with “A=A,” which is some kind of Randroid sign.
Nathair
August 18, 2012 at 8:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I really, really hesitate to ask this considering the industrial grade shit you just sprayed the place with, but what are you talking about here and what does it have to do with anything?
Tom Foss
August 18, 2012 at 9:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Feminists are bad skeptics. As proof, here’s a list of talking points I’m parroting without ever researching their veracity or critically examining them at all.”
Joe
August 18, 2012 at 9:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It’s amazing how often they get that wrong, isn’t it?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 18, 2012 at 9:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Do you have any actual interest in finding out?
Jadehawk
August 18, 2012 at 9:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
hmph. my first comment is stuck in moderation, probably too many links. anyway, here’s the last procrastinatory design for the day: Atheism Plus
John S. Wilkins
August 18, 2012 at 9:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Why is there a Christian cross in your logo for atheism? ;-)
Kate
August 18, 2012 at 9:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You’ve inspired me, Jen. I’m ready to be front and center in the New Wave. Thank you for writing this!
MrPeach
August 18, 2012 at 9:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fuck those nozzles, we’d be far better off without them.
The problem with atheism the movement (as it has been) is that the only thing that joins us is our atheism. This means any misogynistic ass is free to join and ruin the party for everyone else. We need to bridge over to a community that starts with atheism, but actually stands for something positive. We need to start judging people as not worthy of the movement if they would treat anyone poorly – the worst of us is what the theists (and our members as well) remember, and it’s time we rid ourselves of them.
Bring on the atheist humanist movement!
I’m with you Jen, and have always been!
John S. Wilkins
August 18, 2012 at 9:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree, so I revise my suggestion:
“Affirmatism”.
This is a movement that affirms rights, equality, humanistic values, liberty, and general good taste. I hereby declare it started.
[Those who object to allying this with affirmative action, please remind me. What's the problem with affirmative actions again? Is it helping folks who have been traditionally marginalised get into the mainstream? If yes, then that says a lot about you.]
MrPeach
August 18, 2012 at 9:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Actually, come to think of it, this is exactly what NAP is trying to do – but on a political plane. Perhaps they need to expand their mission.
Todd B
August 18, 2012 at 9:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Men who act that way should be shamed and shunned. I’d say like how the Xbox girls get revenge in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnIJ-ljctk , except that women are generally too classy to stoop to the same level. Up with Matriarchy!
Rey Fox
August 18, 2012 at 9:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*adds hand to the pile*
Avengers assemble!
JHSC
August 18, 2012 at 9:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
YES YES YES!
Brad
August 18, 2012 at 9:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I hope this takes off. In addition to all the other reasons above, it’ll be something much better to explain who you are to people that hadn’t heard of you than “boobquake lady.”
emilysmith
August 18, 2012 at 9:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I was thinking that “intersectionality” was an awesome word for this that really deserves more attention in all sorts of movements. “Secular humanism” is also a handy name to have on hand.
Larkness
August 18, 2012 at 9:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you. I’m ready for the schism. A+
Manly Bowler
August 18, 2012 at 9:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Alright, let’s do this!
portia
August 18, 2012 at 10:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This made me smile. Onward!
TychaBrahe
August 18, 2012 at 10:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Try this. Invent a female persona. Give yourself a name that obviously indicates you are female.
Join an atheist chat room. Go to reddit. Log onto an online gaming forum.
See what it’s like.
FredSamBoyo
August 18, 2012 at 10:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Delurking to say, I’m in. Awesome post Jen.
HJ Hornbeck
August 18, 2012 at 10:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve been in for a good six months or so, only I’ve been calling it “social justice atheism.” I’m cool with whatever label we settle on, though, and I gotta admit “affirmative atheism” has a sort of pizazz to it.
Oh, and I’ve got another logo to add to the pile. I’ve never been much of a fan of the Dawkins “A,” instead preferring the ol’ Atheist Alliance International one from ought-7, as designed by Diane Reed.
Oh oh, and AWESOME post Jen! You win one (1) Internet2!
portia
August 18, 2012 at 10:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Late to the party, but as I’ve said elsewhere, you are totally on point and I’m absolutely on board. Count me among the infantry.
Sunil D'Monte
August 18, 2012 at 10:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Just wanted to leave a note to show my support – so here it is!
natashayar-routh
August 18, 2012 at 10:25 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I wish you luck Jen but this is not my fight. I view atheism and skepticism as tools I can wield in the fight against haters and bigots, religious and otherwise, to tray to carve out a space where we trans* people can get on with our lives. I have neither the time or the energy to fight yet another bunch of smug, self righteous, over privileged, spoiled, straight, white cis people. I deal with enough of that sort as it is.
Still be of good cheer Jen, your enemies in this fight are pathetic little wastes of protoplasm that with any luck will whine themselves to death.
Emily
August 18, 2012 at 10:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m with you 100% on this up hill battle. Keep going; we’re behind you!
insipidmoniker
August 18, 2012 at 10:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fuck. Yes. I’m in. That isnall.
Skeptimus Prime
August 18, 2012 at 10:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m only a silly white guy, but I want to say that I think you are more that welcome in the movement as far as I am concerened.
Reading your blog as well as Skepchick and others has informed me about the importance of feminist ideas. I think it sucks that you have been made to feel unsafe in this community, but you have made a difference.
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 18, 2012 at 10:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen:
Wow. Well thought. Well executed.
Is it possible to agree 110% with you?
Yes, please.
bvganfematheist
August 18, 2012 at 10:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes. This. Completely agree with this.
David John Wellman
August 18, 2012 at 11:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I didn’t really believe that there was an overarching problem here until I read this post. Jesus effing Christ, I really am part of a boys’ club! That, as, Shakespeare said four hundred years before the scanner, would be scanned.
Third Wave sounds like either Transhumanism or The Talking Heads. Let’s go with A+.
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 18, 2012 at 11:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh, and I’m so totes behind A+.
I can imagine that as a soundbite.
CBS anchor interviewing Jen:
“So just what does A+ stand for?”
“Atheism + Social Justice”
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Very well said Ed – I have often wondered why this gaping blind spot existed in some people’s assessment of the facts. OR worse do as Dawkins did and suggest that because women suffer brutality elsewhere trying to handle online and offline sexism here is suspect. Who asked you Mr. Dawkins?….Women are fighting it everywhere and are not working against each other. It stunned me that he thought he had position to take women to task on where and when to confront it.
Imagine if we suggested such a thing to the ADL?
lujlp
August 18, 2012 at 11:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you all for proving my point
1. What advice would that be exacly, staying of the net if you cant handle criticism? I handle it just fine. I’ve yet to really see any though most people just make assignations about my charecter rather than the points I wrote about, see #’s 3,4,5,6,7,& 8
2. Your welcome
3. I have dyslexia, spell check tends to spell words fine but miss the finer points, and you are discriitory against dyslexics for being mean to me (do you see what I did there with the second half of that sentance?)
4. Acctually she said guys dont do that in the conference in response to the elevator incident she said felt attacked, even though the guy took no for ananswer, never laid a hand on her, and didnt even ask a second time
5. A few thing mandrellian, “futher” implies I’ve demonzied Watson here before. As the Jens point that she feel more safe walking down a dark alley than she does exchanging words on the internet or in a well lit public building in the midlle of the day surroded by dozens of men who would beat the shit out of any other mad daring to put his hands on a woman saying no, I cry bullshit. Its not true, and she knows it.
As to the rest of my post, what makes you think I’m an MRA? Technically feminists themsevles should be MRAs as they claim to be for the equal treatment of both sexes’ nice insunuation of gay anal rape in there too, I didnt know you could divine age by text message. And how exaclty is one comment proof of an obssesion? Alo what makes you think I am a creationist
And finally how exactly is pointing out that one woman lied in her charecterization of strangers on a a message board “demonization” when it is the truth? And how is pointing it out proof of “douchebags in atheist-land”
6. Joe, I knoe SC=Watson, thats why I switched to her name. No it doesnt, fair point, but it also means that they cant really complaign if someone does, actions have consequences. Male sexuality is fairly straight forward. To take advantage of it for finacail gain(and what she used the proceeds for was admerable) and then turn around and demonize it is hypocracy at its finest
If the number of jokes is beside the point then why bring it up? Second MY point wanst about the number of jokes but that the article was written in such a manner as to suggest nearly EVERY comment was an anal rape joke, when in fact it was the opposite.
Again my point was not that such jokes were OK becuase f the low number. My point was Watson LIED in suggesting that the majority of comments were inappropriate, when in fact they were protesting the very jokes she was coneming. My further point was that Waston claimed it was athiest men making the jokes, but when I clicked on nearly 60 different profiles not one of them had any info identifying the posters as male or athiest – so where did she get the data that shows those posters were men or athiests?
I post on religious boards al the time, doesnt make me religious, I post on womens issues and feminists boads, doesnt make me a feminist or a woman. Facts not in eveidence.
And finally I never said there was not harrassment. I said most of it was overblown. I dont consider asking a woamn for coffe after she spent hours partying in a bar to be harrasing. Repeatedly asking, getting up there. Putting your hand on her definatly harrasment. But saying hello, and asking her to your room in such a non threatening way and taking no for an answer is not harrasment. If it is saying hello to anyone on the street if they dont want to talk could be considered harrasment
7. Pointing out sexists and harrasing women withing the feminist movement.
8. Note how you cant point to anything specific? This is what I’m talking about. And you should have used these ‘ ‘, not these ” “, as the words yo are attributing to me are not an actual quote
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Dead on, Carli – This is not about feminism or women alone…
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“faux-enlightened lolbertarian dudebro atmosphère” — MUST STEAL THIS.
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I call this stance DATA OR GTFO. It’s about as subtle as the original.
If your sister said something horrible was going on would you ask her for data or would you aks what the guys name is, what he did and where he lives?
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 18, 2012 at 11:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fizzing thru da Fizzics says:
I know people lurk for a variety of reasons, but I wonder if more people delurked when the asshole MRAs, slympitters, sexists, et al come crawling out of the woodwork…would that push them away more? If it seemed like a veritable avalanche of progressive A+’s coming at them, would their crap get drowned out?
Steve Croker
August 18, 2012 at 11:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Excellent post, and I am so glad that you say:
amethyststarling
August 18, 2012 at 11:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I concur!
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 18, 2012 at 11:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Please take your own advice. Get the hell off the internet you sexist asshat.
For the umpteenth time, Rebecca Watson said “guys don’t do that”.
That’s.
Fucking.
It.
It’s advice on how *not* to hit on women, unless your goal is to be creepy and get shot down.
That you can’t understand this shows how much ‘respect’ you have for women, as well as the level of privilege you have.
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It would be nice if we didn’t ghettoize to nerd-com…we already have this problem. And as much as nerdom is a lovely space for nerds it’s not really an attractor in the wider world.
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
sorry nerddom ? Not nerd-com…. you get my drift.
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Suggestion – How about someone set up a collab space to hash out some of the meat of this?
Bjarte Foshaug
August 18, 2012 at 11:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ditto, here’s something I wrote over at Ophelia Benson’s blog:
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 18, 2012 at 11:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And there’s your problem. Or one of them, more accurately.
You don’t get to decide for someone else what is or isn’t harassment. More to the point, you don’t get to mansplain’ to a woman that “oh, sweety, you’re overreacting. this isn’t harassment. never you mind.”
You patronizing, sexist, lying, asshat.
Oh yeah, and ONE rape joke is one too many.
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 18, 2012 at 11:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The suggestions of A+ (atheism+social justice) have gotten much love.
I like it because it announces out the gate that this isn’t a religious organization. Then it says “…plus we care about social justice in all its forms”.
Eric O
August 18, 2012 at 11:49 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t post here often, but I just wanted to say that I’m totally on board with this new wave of atheism, and I’m optimistic about the outcome.
Also, Pteryxx’s “A+” idea is awesome. I’ve always been a bit uncomfortable with the idea of wearing the scarlet A on a t-shirt, but I feel like I could wear an A+ shirt with pride.
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:49 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Derailing 101 – and a waste of pixels.
cityzenjane
August 18, 2012 at 11:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“emphasize ACTING ON values of equality and social justice” – I’ve had enough jaw-flappin.
rq
August 18, 2012 at 11:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes. A+!
Pete Knight
August 18, 2012 at 11:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m not too comfortable with a new wave, or as I see it, a sub-division of the skeptic movement, this is looking terrifyingly like the religionists break away sects that fight among themselves. A further sub-division is going to deter people from participating if we’re fighting among ourselves, and the current row has caused a lot of people to walk away rather than take one side or the other.
Would it not be better to stay as one and fight the injustices from within? That said there will always be the numpties who just don’t get what skepticism is about, they just pick a side and dig their heels in, it’s human nature…… unfortunately!
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 19, 2012 at 12:00 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
PDX_Greg:
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I keep up with a fair amount of bloggers, and I frequently read all the comments (or the vast majority of them). You’d be amazed at the people reading a comment @324.
****
Quietmarc:
Me too.
I’m glad to see that at nearly 150 responses, this has been overwhelmingly in support of Jen and A+.
****
natashayar-routh says:
You do know there’s a lot of overlap there, right? Many of the same type of smug, self righteous, over privileged, spoiled, straight, white cis people you’re fighting are the ones activists like Jen are fighting. That’s part of the reason A+ works. It’s not just about Atheism. As others have said, that’s not enough to unite a diverse group of people into a movement. The addition of PLUS means that we’re *atheists* plus we fight for social justice.
An end to sexism and misogyny.
An end to homophobia.
An end to ageism.
An end to ableism.
An end to transphobia.
So many of those issues overlap with the others, that if you tug on one string, two or more will start to unravel.
cityzenjane
August 19, 2012 at 12:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
[Insert People's Front of Judea joke here]
Nevertheless….consider me an enthusiastic splitter. A divider.
cityzenjane
August 19, 2012 at 12:05 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You do that Pete….stay and fight from within….It will be a pleasure to watch as you take them on! As for me – I do my bit every day.
Tony •King of the Hellmouth•
August 19, 2012 at 12:05 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Pete:
I think that for many people, a desire not to be associated with the scumbags, MRAs, rape apologists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, etc is the reason they don’t want to be part of the current atheist/skeptic movement.
I agree that the movement needs to be redefined, with clear goals and an understanding of THIS shit won’t be tolerated *. Jen’s post does a magnificent job highlighting what the redefined movement should be about.
Where’s that darn ‘LIKE’ button…?
*stuff like ElevatorGate, and the vile, monstrous things said to Rebecca Watson.
mildlymagnificent
August 19, 2012 at 12:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That beeping noise you hear is the great big truck backing up to deliver mountains of shiny new internets in boxes of any and every colour anyone ever liked with stars, rainbows, balloons and ribbons galore.
Enough for every one of you delightful people. Jen gets first pick ….. and as many other picks as she likes.
Joe
August 19, 2012 at 12:10 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
No, it doesn’t. Like I said, selling erotic photos doesn’t give permission for people to treat someone in a sexual manner anytime they feel like it (to which you agreed). This means they can complain if someone does – because they haven’t been given permission.
And if you read any of the links Jen has so helpfully provided you, you will see that it is not overblown. It is pretty clear that this is a serious problem – prompting the very blog post we are commenting on.
And, as Tony has said, you don’t get to decide what is harassment, so whether or not you think it is overblown is irrelevant.
bvganfematheist
August 19, 2012 at 12:16 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Can’t really say anything that hasn’t already been said better. So just, yes, definitely, count me in. You are awesome! Thankyou.
whatnot
August 19, 2012 at 12:20 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I *don’t* think cons should have specific anti-sexual harassment policies.
Cons *should have* anti-harassment policies that are broad enough to cover sexual harassment, as well as other types of harassment that we should choose not to tolerate in society.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
August 19, 2012 at 12:22 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ FTW!
This is awesome. Well done, Jen.
Cinnamonster
August 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A very well thought out article. I never could understand how people could claim to function on reason and logic and then proceed to act the way that some of those idiots do. It amazes me even more that in 2012, a sexual harassment policy had to be requested. I would have thought people would have simply known how to behave like respectable adults.
I think you’re right about the nay-sayers losing, though. As you said, it’s an uphill battle, but there is ground being gained. Even if those obnoxious few never change their mind, if feminists and minorities continue to write articles like this and speak out against that kind of behaviour, it’ll have an affect whether they like it or not.
nathan
August 19, 2012 at 12:37 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi,
First let me say I support third wave atheism 100 percent. Secondly let me say that I am a Christian.
Ok, let me explain that a bit more. I don’t believe that what we believe has anything to do with what kind of people we are. I believe in God, atheists don’t. So what. What we are is determined by the good that we do. Equality is good. Bigotry is bad. And I will always support those fighting for equality no matter what their beliefs on God are.
It’s no secret that Christianity (and for that matter every religion) has had its share of infiltration by those trying to use it for their own political will. Some churches and denominations more than others. And I think by recognizing that both Christians and atheists deal with bigot infiltration, we can separate the bigotry we see from the respective groups and recognize we’re all just people trying to work out answers to our questions. Through this recognition we can also become allies in the fight for equality, despite differing beliefs.
So that’s really my main point, that we can both see that bigotry is wrong, and we can work together to do something about it regardless of whether it appears in atheist groups, churches, or anywhere else. You have allies where you would least expect. :)
Thanks and keep up the good work!
cityzenjane
August 19, 2012 at 12:38 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
can’t have a social justice fight unless you talk about racism and classism….
seriously no point in even starting unless those are included as matters up for compassionate discussion as well…
perhaps it’s just an oversight… hope so.
brianpansky
August 19, 2012 at 12:42 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
the only person I know who explicitly identifies as a humanist also happens to be a fan of “the amazing atheist” :/ which I find rather confusing.
cityzenjane
August 19, 2012 at 12:43 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well said Nathan – and welcome… I have been saying for a while that I have more in common with religious people who fight for social justice than I do with atheists who spend every waking moment pwning young earth creationists… I mean once it’s done…It’s done. Also….seriously how hard is that?
The work of pwning sexism, racism, homophobia, ablism, and all other sorts of hatred is never done….and it’s ACTUAL WORK.
Hertta
August 19, 2012 at 12:54 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
For a while now I’ve been (mostly quietly and to myself) calling this new wave ‘social justice atheism’. I wouldn’t call myself a skeptic, because of the libertarian Boys’ Club association and even just ‘atheist’ makes me cringe a bit. I like to call myself a social justice atheist. But if all the cool kids start calling themselves ‘third wave atheists’ or A-plussers, I’ll go with that.
jedimasteryoda
August 19, 2012 at 1:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As a white, cisgender, male, hetero, privedged, human being:
1. This was one of the best posts I’ve ever read.
2. You have my support.
3. Let us change the world for the better.
May the Force be with you, Jedi Grand Master Jen!
Jenny P
August 19, 2012 at 1:08 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi Jen,
I’m mostly a lurker, but I feel that on this post I ought to show my support for you. Fight the good fight! Thanks for peeling back the rug and showing how many cockroaches this movement has become riddled with. You might get some crawling up your arm, but you can’t crush ‘em if you can’t see ‘em.
And that overlong metaphor is why I don’t comment very often ^_^
machintelligence
August 19, 2012 at 1:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wow! It took awhile to read all of the comments, but COUNT ME IN!
Now for a few random thoughts:
It seems like the MRA’s have learned one thing from the Gnu Atheists (and only one thing) — it is OK to be loud.
The rape fixation of the misogynist/libertarian wankers may be due to the fact that they view rape as their only chance to have sex with a woman. They sure as hell aren’t going to attract any girlfriends or mates with their wonderful personalities. Natural selection will remove them eventually, but it is a slow process.
When you agree on the form of the A+ symbol get in contact with the folks at Evolve Fish. They did it for the Digital Cuttlefish and they can do it for you.
nathan
August 19, 2012 at 1:17 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Our work may be never done but it’s always worth it. :)
machintelligence
August 19, 2012 at 1:28 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Here is a link if you are interested
http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/product5452.html
sc_ece3c77c2d114dca8c9bf2650b92a3f4
August 19, 2012 at 1:29 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
ADD ME! I want to be part of this new wave of atheists, or A+.
Atheism plus, A+, is excellent, and says it all.
The “dictionary” atheists can stay on the other side of that rift, along with any MRAs- they aren’t needed, or wanted in a truly inclusive A plus.
This post is simply perfect. I am delurking just to add this comment.
I have been that girl, the token, the one who thinks the guys like her because she’s cool and passionate about atheism, but finds out they only “like” her if she doesn’t expect to be treated w respect.
Finding other atheists was so thrilling that I didn’t notice the anti woman bias at first. When I started noticing it, it was an enormous disappointment, huge. Kinda like finding out your fiancé is KKK member, or that your mom hates gays. What a let down! Of all people, you would think atheists/skeptics would have been able to see misogyny for what it really is, and be offended by it, based on reason alone. I guess they are blinded by privilege?
There’s just no excuse for the anti woman attitude. I find it shocking, and disgusting, how many nasty comments will pop up every time even the most innocuous female topic comes up. I mean, still mad over Rebeccas request not to hit on her in an elevator? Really?
(And to the (non empathetic) men, just because you feel safe at skeptic events, doesn’t mean some women do NOT feel safe at the very same place.)
SpriteSuzi
August 19, 2012 at 1:36 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I really like Jadehawk’s logo. The A+ is too clearly related to the scarlet A (is there a copyright on that?) as well as being reminiscent of the Brights. Maybe if we did something creative with a different font and “plus” written out it would be better, but Jadehawk’s is a better fit to me.
Coming up with the logo is the easy part, though. We’re all saying yes to the idea of a new version of the movement, but how do we move forward as a new group? I don’t know; I’m in the middle of nowhere Antipodes, with no local group at all, and very few contacts in the country. Guidance, anyone?
fort nerd
August 19, 2012 at 1:37 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Allow me to just say, FUCK YEAH!
lujlp
August 19, 2012 at 1:48 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Therefore harrasment is subjective and not objective? In that case Tony you have sexally harrassed me. And if one joke is too many why wasnt that the subject of Watsons post? Why did she insinuste that nearly all the posts were the same as the quoted examples?
Goblinman
August 19, 2012 at 1:48 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is about more than just about what’s going on internally. A lot more. This could change our outside reputation–which currently has us as being a bunch of grouchy, nihilistic, middle-class white guys.
If atheism isn’t about humanism–about social justice–then it’s useless. We’re not a movement–just a bunch of theological critics. From what I gather, the real reason the atheist movement has been gaining momentum is because more and more people are waking up to the human harm religion causes. We’re already the heart of the movement.
So yeah. A+
(I’d vote for “atheist humanist” for the technical term, and “atheist plus” as the soundbyte.)
rorschach
August 19, 2012 at 1:56 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Why not? Got trouble picking one?
lujlp
August 19, 2012 at 1:59 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The problem with most of Jens links is that they link to summeries, of other web pages summaries of other webpages assertions, and you have to follow the daisy chain for five or six links untli you see the quote in its actual context, the one direct link regarding the mailing lists mentions a thunderfoot, but doents really say whether or not thunderfoot is a man or not, and even if he is isnt is sexist to attibute the action of one individual to an entire gender?
As for the thing about Rhys I didnt see any comments made about him that I have heard of simmilar vein from him(though to be fair those accustion follow the same kind of daisy chain link)
Cubist
August 19, 2012 at 2:00 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Camouflage. The godbots will think everyone with that A+ symbol is just another nice Christian like themselves, and by the time they suss out our true intentions and goals, it will be far too late. Far, far, far, far too late.
lujlp
August 19, 2012 at 2:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
My advice was to get off e net if you cant handle criticism, I can.
I do find it odd that I am so often accused of hatred and bigotry and sexism, yet I am the one who remains calm and rational, and you so called good guys let fly with the personal attacks and the swearing.
Watson gave a talk on not hitting on people durring the confernce, the conference ended, she went partying (good for her) she left to go to bed, the guy already on the elevator hit on her, she made is seem like he was a creepy stalker who follwed her and cornered her.
Seems to me he did exaclty as she asked and only hit on her once the confernce was over.
And we have a problem Tony, under you theory of sexual harrasemnt anything can be harrassing at any time, totally on the whim of whomever feels like it.
He asked, ONCE. She said no, he did nothing else. How is that harrasment? He took a shot, and backed off when she said no.
hadjuk72
August 19, 2012 at 2:16 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
When I read this article it occurred to me that the author seems to expect “atheism” to equal “humanism”. Stating the belief that “God does not exist” is unrelated to a belief in gender equality. If there is no supreme being then your choice is to look to the natural world and science or to adopt nihilism ( I suppose solipsism has a certain internal consistency going for it). I would even argue that the opposite belief system would be a far more rational conclusion. You only have to look at the way the vast majority of mammalian inter-sex interactions to conclude that “Mother Nature” wanted the male of the species dominant. I am not saying humans should behave in this manner– quite the opposite. I agree that women should have social and legal freedoms and protections equal to men and this includes freedom from sexual harassment and unwanted repeated sexual advances. What I am saying is that a *lack* in a belief of a supreme being and likely its concurrent moral code does not lead to humanistic beliefs or even basic courteous behavior.
This ugly misogynistic harassment that the author had to endure also brings me to my fundamental problem with “Atheism” in relation to skepticism.
Suppose I claim that there is a teapot orbiting Alpha Centauri (to bring Russell’s analogy up to date with the advances of modern astronomy). You would likely look at me as though I were insane and correctly ask me for some evidence to support this wild claim. I of course would tell you that I know in my heart and soul that it is there. You can’t prove it is not. In fact its actions are all around you and you need only to *believe*. Maybe I’d even threaten you with dire consequences for not acknowledging the Blessed Chinaware. You would rightly back up slowly toward the door shaking your head and wondering how I got this delusional. Undoubtedly we have all had these discussions in some form or another but with angels, demons, Transubstantiation, and the Conversion of the Jews as more “plausible” stand-ins for the teapot.
As an “Agnostic” though I cannot say that the teapot orbiting Alpha Centauri doesn’t exist only that the burden of proof lies with the person who makes such a fantastic claim. I cannot logically claim to know that the teapot doesn’t exist. The statement that “Teapot doesn’t exist” is a belief just like “Teapot does exist”. One is helluva lot more likely than the other granted but to state with certitude that there isn’t a teapot is incorrect. All you can say is “I see no evidence for the existence of the Teapot”.
I know that the people who read this are generally well-read and intelligent so I will point out that I understand that the maxim “you can’t prove a negative” is untrue. Dr. Steven D. Hales is also mostly correct (http://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf) but, in this case, if you make the teapot an omnipotent, omniscient super-being with “His ways inscrutable”, you do in fact make this negative impossible to prove (Descartes in his ontological argument had to logically acknowledge that God could be an “evil demon” bent on deceiving us before he quickly and lamely rejected it). If you are up against something omnipotent that you want to prove does not exist and it wants to deceive you, well, you’re stuck.
With a group that identifies itself as “Atheist” you will draw a heterogeneous group with widely differing moral philosophies. Some of these will be people who hold highly values of nonviolence, human equality, justice, truth and compassion. Some well be simply forcefully rejecting a particularly hated religious upbringing. Others will be hardcore individualist-anarchists. And as was demonstrated in the author’s blog, some will have the usual staggering ignorance of all misogynists, racists, and bigots.
Those of you who are fighting the hypocrisy, fear, and ignorance that is much too common in religion by forming collectives of atheists are substituting one belief for another and you will continue to draw adherents who will be increasingly indistinguishable from the angriest fundamentalist. The pendant jewelry with the atom model will warp from protest piece to icon and Atheism will warp into the exact thing you are currently commendably fighting. As an agnostic and as a skeptical rational being (not a Skeptic in capitalization) you shrug your shoulders at the statement “God exists”, give it as much thought as Russell’s teapot, and continue trying to show by courteous logic that God is not necessary for a just and fascinating universe.
Hastur
August 19, 2012 at 2:22 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Bleh!
I wish it was possible to evict the misogynic assholes from the able-bodied white males because I don’t want them in my group anymore.
Silus
August 19, 2012 at 2:27 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Any movement I want to belong to can’t just be pure atheism and nothing else. Social justice and equality are too important to toss by the wayside in pursuit of another creationist on the internet.
Thank you for writing this post!
Beatrice
August 19, 2012 at 2:31 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That should be a good prompt for you to do some self-questioning.
random
August 19, 2012 at 2:42 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“It’s time for a wave that cares about how religion affects everyone and that applies skepticism to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, politics, poverty, and crime.”
Nice sentiments but I’ve seen plenty of atheists/skeptics form opinions on the above matters with which most of the people posting on FT would vehemently disagree (yes yes I know my personal experience doesn’t matter and I’d probably be better off looking for stats on this). Random example: “I applied skepticism to race maters and found out that yes, race matters; sub-saharan africans are truly not fit for our society due to their mostly genetic lower IQ” (even some well-known atheists adhere to such, as we know…). The only thing that will ever unite a significant percentage of atheists is lack of belief in “god” and related, imo but I could be wrong…
PS: sorry if this was addressed in the comments, feeling a bit under the weather so wasn’t in the mood to read everything
lujlp
August 19, 2012 at 2:43 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Really? So if in response to your calm and rational argument I were to fly off the handle and call you a sexist ball busting hag and not attept to refute you argument in any manner you would see that as “a good prompt for you to do some self-questioning”
Or would you see it as a moron with impulse control issues attacking you for disagreeing and not even capable of a reasond response to your writting?
Lets recap – I Calmly and rational point out someone who happens to be female is lying, and proved proof. Meanwhile I say nothing of women in general
My repsondants call me a bigot and claim it doenst matter that She lied
And you think that is good enough for me to question myself? For what exacly. Tony and Joe I am assuming are men, but you as a woman with a better developed frontal lobe should be capable for far more ellegant articualtion So perhaps you can tell me exactly what is sexist about highlight non subjective facts, and why my calling attetnion to them is deserving of such vitriol
Beatrice
August 19, 2012 at 2:44 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree with this.
Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD
August 19, 2012 at 2:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
a) He wasn’t already on the elevator. He was in the bar where she was and went to the elevator after her. Unless you know differently, and the only way you could was if you WERE elevator guy.
b) Her advice for ‘Guys, don’t do that’ was in the nature of friendly advice. Doing that sort of stupid thing is creepy, doesn’t work and so if they actually do want a relationship with an actual women, it’s a losing strategy.
c) The harassment wasn’t so much Elevator Guy, and if you had read even a smidgin of the posts on this over the last year or so you would already know this. The harassment was the severe over-reaction by entitled, privileged males (and some chill girls) to this friendly advice.
This leads me to conclude that despite your claim to be calm and rational you are arguing in bad faith and have not a rational leg to stand on.
Beatrice
August 19, 2012 at 2:55 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh please.
When you regularly get called a bigot and a hater then yes, you should definitely check if maybe the description fits.
That you were calm has no bearing to the quality of your argument. You can calmly claim that the Earth is flat and your first cousin is a pony. It would be just as rational as your whining over Rebecca Watson.
You gave no facts. You just had a great big temper tantrum in written form.
Fuck off.
Beatrice
August 19, 2012 at 3:00 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The whole elevator incident has been discussed dozens of times. It has been dissected and looked at from every angle imaginable. Bringing it up again serves nothing more than derailing.
Trust me, lujlp, you aren’t bringing anything new or interesting to the conversation.
Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD
August 19, 2012 at 3:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sounds good.
You get an A+ from me!
angelina
August 19, 2012 at 3:12 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I completely agree with Jen. The atheist community is not immune to the issues in society, and I do not for one minute imagine that (some) atheists do not think the same way (some) men do outside of atheist groups, that is: “You have been drinking and talking to me all night, this means you want to fuck me, otherwise you are being a tease”, or “Well, you are wearing clothes like that, you should expect that men want to touch your ass”
Whilst society in general may not want to stand up and say “this far and no further”, I think we as a community can say that we do not accept behaviour like this.
I have to admit I have been one of those who stand back and ignore low level sexism, misogyny and transphobia etc. I am an online gamer, and I play a game where less than 5% of the players are female (Eve Online), and where misogyny is within some sections of the player base, almost a required behaviour, so, whilst I may have spoken up when people in my immediate group have used misogynistic language, I rarely speak out when it is in larger groups, or among those who I am not familiar with.
At least within the skeptic/atheist movement, we should be able to stand up and say “No more”.
maureen.brian
August 19, 2012 at 3:13 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If you had been paying attention, adamcasey, you might have noticed that the problem was identified, described, analysed and backed with research papers – all by the women and our much appreciated handful of good blokes. A couple of modest solutions were proposed.
Only after that did the mindless trolls come along, waving their genitalia and shouting, “You’re not allowed to say that about me. I’m perfect.” Since then they have come up with every possible permutation on the scatological. But not a single useful idea.
As for this “take me back to the beginning and explain it all very slowly” scam, let me try an analogy.
If I mention the word “atom” you don’t immediately demand that I go back to the first mention of the notion with the ancient Greeks, do you? You don’t expect me to go though the story and the understanding decade by decade until we arrive at the Large Hadron Collider where I show you the whole of the press conference on video for the Higgs boson announcement, do you? Of course not!
For fear of looking an idiot you have a quiet word with your neighbour who is a junior science teacher or you take a basic text out of the library. After that you might ask questions.
So what you are doing is a well-know delaying tactic, designed to waste as much woman-power as possible. Whether you realised you were doing it or not – you have been spotted!
Besides, where I live the campaign for full rights for women begins in the middle of our civil wars of the seventeenth century. At best I have 20 years left. I intend to use them doing something interesting or productive, preferably both.
Btw, Jen – excellent stuff!
Beatrice
August 19, 2012 at 3:32 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And there are people who would claim that they have applied skepticism to their thoughts about the existence of god and concluded that some “greater power” must exist. Thumping one’s chest because “me, skeptical!!1!!11eleven!” isn’t the same as actually applying careful thought and coming to rational conclusions.
Those who claim that their careful skeptical thinking led them to the conclusion that non-white people are inferior to white people obviously did something wrong in the process. It should be obvious that when Jen writes that people should apply skepticism to everything it’s implicit that saying one’s skeptical while actually just indulging in confirmations of one’s bigotry doesn’t count.
Svlad Cjelli
August 19, 2012 at 3:45 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Popper once remarked on words, that if the definitions of tyrrany and democracy were reversed, he’d rather be called a tyrant than a democrat.
I’m not sentimental about being called “new atheist”. I’ve never even liked the term.
Masks of Eris
August 19, 2012 at 3:47 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*claps and stomps feet* Well said!
Grokes
August 19, 2012 at 3:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Count this middleaged straight white cis in.
maureen.brian
August 19, 2012 at 3:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Pete Knight,
There are more people being deterred by the current image of the movement than could possibly be deterred if it takes a turn towards social justice or even has heated debates now and then.
How do I know that? Because we, the othered others, are far and away the majority in every population. No?
neilcn
August 19, 2012 at 3:54 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes – count me in.
Funny thing is, I’ve not always been an athiest. When I was a christian believer, the first chinks in my faith really came through my discomfort with how christian churches deal (or often fail to deal) with issues of inequality and privilege.
After I rejected my faith, this blog, along with those by PZ Myers, Rebecca Watson, Greta Christina et al were my introduction to the athiest community on the internet.
It seemed entirely obvious and unremarkable to me that athiest bloggers and activists also stood up for equality and the rights of those disadvantaged by our patriarchal societies. Why WOULDN’T an athiest/skeptic movement stand up for such values? It certainly seemed obvious to me!
So elevatorgate, and the subsequent flowering of the trolls, came as something as a shock!
Hey-ho, having spent decades trying to stand up for equality and justice in the Christian church, I guess I’ve just got to start all over again in my new home. It really is the least I can do from my white, male, middle class privileged position.
So, as I said, count me in.
Neil
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 3:56 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I see where you’re coming from, but I think choosing a new name would be conceeding too much ground to the hate shreikers. We are the skeptics and we are the atheists. We reject the woo of no-I-won’t-share-my-toys-with-that-slimy-girl libertarianism, and we lack their devout faith in the present movement’s perfection.
mdevile
August 19, 2012 at 3:59 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Another mostly-lurker stepping up to say “Fuck yeah!”
I actually had a similar conversation the other day, as following the TAM, Tf00t and related drama was quickly raising my disgust levels with parts of the movement. And yes, agreed, 100%. Non-belief is all well-and-good, but then what? If it’s really the only thing holding your group together than you’re going to run out of shit to say and do pretty quickly. I’d like to think that rational, free-thinking people would all be able to agree that all human beings deserve respect and safety just on the basis of their personhood. If not, well, you’re not really the kind of people I want to be around, even if we agree on the no invisible man in the sky thing.
Random aside is random, but isn’t it odd that rational thinkers are weighing in social justice issues without doing any homework? Isn’t that one of the things that pisses us off about creation vs evolution debates, the lack of any grounding in the science behind evolution before weighing in to whine that “we didn’t come from monkeys”? It’s not like there’s entire textbooks, articles and websites on the subject or anything…
Anyway! A+, new new atheism, humanist pizza with everything… I don’t care what we call it (within reason) I just want it.
Thank you for this!
A 'Nym Too
August 19, 2012 at 4:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Congratulations! You were always brave, you just needed that perfect chance to use it.
I hope you’re enjoying your new life.
jesspopplewell
August 19, 2012 at 4:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen,
a few months ago we had a brief e-mail conversation, during which I thanked you for being such an accessible gateway into a friendly, atheist, feminist community when I needed it. You will be pleased to know that since that low moment I have soared in terms of confidence and happiness, and a lot of that is because I am much more comfortable with my identity as, what I would term, a humanist.
Anyone can be atheist, just by not believing in deities. But if we want a community, it has to be one based on social justice.
I’m with you 100%.
adamcasey
August 19, 2012 at 4:13 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“If women in the movement are saying “there’s a large contingent of assholes making me feel like shit in this movement”, what else exactly do you think you need? THAT’S ENOUGH TO CHANGE THINGS IF YOU WANT WOMEN IN YOUR MOVEMENT.”
What? You have radically misunderstood/misinterpreted. There is a problem. It’s called sexism and it exists everwhere. I know, it’s not exactly hard to notice. Do we need to fight sexism everywhere we find it? Yes of course, what kind of idiot do you take me for?
The post I wrote is specifically about that species of sexism that exists within atheism. It exists, I know, again, it’s not hard to notice. What is it like? I have no damned idea. Sexism comes in many shades and many forms. The fact that sexism exists does not tell me that I ought to support one particular policy to deal with it.
Consider. If people of colour come up to me and say that they do not feel safe in one area is that enough information to tell me what to do? Of course not. If the problem is that they are likely to get stabbed in that area then the solution is dozens of police on patrol. If the problem is racist graffiti that is a radically different kind of problem.
My question is not and never has been “ought we to give a damn about women”. The question is “what is the detailed nature of the problem and what policies ought we to impose.”
adamcasey
August 19, 2012 at 4:14 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“If your sister said something horrible was going on would you ask her for data or would you aks what the guys name is, what he did and where he lives?”
What the hell is “asking what the guy did” if it’s not asking for data?
adamcasey
August 19, 2012 at 4:23 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“There is TONNES of evidence that sexism is a problem in general society and NO EVIDENCE that atheism and scepticism are somehow immune.”
Yes, of course. That is obvious. I dont know if I wrote particularly badly above but people are assuming an incredible amount of ignorance on my part.
Sexism exists, it is a complex and multifaceted beast. It has different parts that must be tackled in different ways. It also exists everywhere. This is a post about sexism in the atheist community.
If that sexism manifests in exactly the same way in atheism as it does everywhere else then we have no need to talk about this specific case, we should simply act here using the same techniques we use everywhere.
However, I doubt it does manifest in exactly the same way. This community is different in terms of makeup and how it communicates. As such I would expect that the details of the problem are different. As such I would expect that we actually need to talk about the issue and communicate clearly about what the nature of the problem is.
Is that really such a controversial notion? Sexism is bad, we need to do something about it. Sexism is not a homogeneous thing, we need to understand this instance and talk clearly about how it is different.
steveblack
August 19, 2012 at 4:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t think we should treat this guy as an asshole who’s playing the fool. We’re not sure he’s an asshole yet, but we already hate him. He could be (a) a regular ignorant person, or (b) a budding asshole, testing the waters of assholery, or a (c) veteran asshole getting ready for an argument and starting soft. I think we assume it’s (b) or (c) too often, without evidence, and that just justifies their belief that we hate them irrationally.
We should make ignorant people feel ignorant, not unwelcome.
adamcasey
August 19, 2012 at 4:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Do you have any actual interest in finding out?”
No, normally when I ask questions online I dont give a damn about the answer. … What?
lujlp
August 19, 2012 at 4:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
How silly of me to forget it is verboten to disagree
adamcasey
August 19, 2012 at 4:26 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thanks. Genuinely.
Charly
August 19, 2012 at 4:28 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well, Jen, I am living on the opposite side of the globe and in the countryside, so I do not visit any conferences and I am not member of any atheist organisation (or to be more precise, of ANY organisation, period).
But for what it is worth, here is one cis-gender-white-middleclass-male who supports you wholeheartedly.
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 4:31 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Count me in 1,000,000 ppm.
adamcasey
August 19, 2012 at 4:36 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
No, that’s not what I’m asking at all. Unless I’m much much worse at communicating than I expect you have misinterpreted wildly.
Sexism exists. There is a hell of a lot of literature on the subject. We need to act on it. Yes… I fucking know. It’s not exactly a secret.
The question I raised is not “explain to me what sexism is”. The question is “how, in detail, is sexism in the atheist community different from sexism on the sidewalk”. That’s a damned important question and one that needs to be communicated clearly.
Clearly the solution to the problem of there being disproportionally more rapes at TAM is a very different solution to the problem of disproportionally more rape threats. These are two different things and they call for two different responses.
I have encountered in all these discussions nothing to tell me, within TAM, which is the more significant problem. That is radically different from “please explain what sexism is.”
Esox
August 19, 2012 at 4:44 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Of course there’s a teapot orbiting Alpha Centauri. The mindworms need something to drink, don’t they?
blgmnts
August 19, 2012 at 4:49 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And if the RDF kind of owns “A+” lets use “A++”.
A blog post like that was so necessary!
64738 times thanks, Jen.
One Thousand Needles
August 19, 2012 at 4:52 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Gee, I wonder if I could, y’know, apply skepticism to your claim?
Let’s start with the women first: what evidence do you have to determine that their reports of harassment are false or “overblown”? If you don’t have a preponderance of evidence that suggests this, then your null hypothesis should be that they are telling the truth, and you need to take their claims seriously.
Now onto you: what evidence do we have to suggest that your claim of harassment is false? Well, your comments show that you are trying (and failing) to make a clever rhetorical point. Therefore, claim dismissed.
Skepticism applied! See how easy that was?
One Thousand Needles
August 19, 2012 at 4:56 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Why not both? Jen’s post isn’t suggesting that other forms of harassment be ignored.
She saying that, within their broader harassment policies, they should specifically address sexual harassment.
Beatrice
August 19, 2012 at 5:00 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You can disagree all you want. The problem is that all your reasons for disagreement have already been observed and dismissed as not valid. So you’re just repeating the same old shit, bringing nothing new to the table.
Christopher Camp
August 19, 2012 at 5:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes, that hack into the FTB backbiting channel was some scary cyberpunk shit. Apparently, all the hacker had to do was open an e-mail Freethoughtblogs had sent him.
Aside from this, I cannot really take this seriously. If you actually have to state that you *actually* feel *safer* walking down the street than xyz, then you are simply addicted to feeling threatened and in the habit of attributing victim status to yourself. That is to say, unless you live in a scary city where people get shot and assaulted at every turn.
The thing is, atheism is not a movement. It was never going to be a movement. It is the simple rejection of the idea of the supernatural (which is an important rejection in parts of the Middle East and the Americas, not so much in Europe anymore). That’s all. No need to throw conservatism, feminism, anarchism or any other kind of ism in there. Ockham’s razor, folks.
Now, what is in its last gasps is not the bogeyman of the ‘male white’ in the ‘movement’ (I know, feminism and racism are *totally incompatible*). What’s in its last gasps is people’s tolerance and willingness to have people shove their ideologies -ranging from quaint to obnoxious- down their throats. They are beginning to resent the fact that, instead of agreeing on the common denominator, the whole ‘movement’ is populated by deranged crazies who are trying to peddle their ideological nonsense to unsuspecting passers-by.
Yet, the ideologues soldier on and on, alienating more and more people in the process – people who were never going to be their opponents. Who never had any interest in their funny ersatz religions in the first place. Every alienated atheist is another example of the oppressive patriarchy and another claim to victimhood.
Richard Dawkins was right. There is no atheist movement. Trying to organise atheists is like trying to herd cats.
Kristjan Wager
August 19, 2012 at 5:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yikes.
Sounds like a good plan to make your own SitP+
Hertta
August 19, 2012 at 5:07 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
But from today onwards, Atheism Plus is a movement. We don’t expect you to join.
Jadzia626
August 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I am a secular humanist. That includes being an atheist, but I find “secular humanist” more descriptive, and of course, I am a humanist. I am also a feminist so I am very happy with the way this shitstorm in the community is turning out in the end. I jumped on board the Secular Woman thing the first day. Love it.
J.C. Samuelson
August 19, 2012 at 5:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fucking A+!
What a thoroughly righteous rant, Jen! Thank you for voicing so well the growing frustration I’ve been feeling toward those who can’t – or won’t – see past their own privilege. Count me in!
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 5:17 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You must get your facts at least this |——–| correct to be taken seriously.
marcbarnhill
August 19, 2012 at 5:20 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, I very much look forward to hearing more about the more inclusive secular organization you’re working on establishing.
As an aside, last year I had an idea for a blog/forum/community that would focus specifically on intercultural humanism. The site would feature rotating bloggers addressing skeptical and atheist issues connected to gender, race and ethnicity, sexual orientation, nationality, and so on, and would serve as a hub for humanist conversations across cultural lines.
I ran this idea by some of the prominent figures in the movement, and while some were supportive or even enthusiastic about it, others persuaded me that the message wouldn’t reach the folks who most needed to hear it, and that the cultural consciousness-raising really just needs to continue in the comments sections of already-existing and worthy venues. So I stopped investigating options and focused my attention on other projects.
I bitterly regret not following through on the idea then, as I think this explicit mission is vital right now, and I currently lack the time and resources it would take to get it off the ground. But the conversations that have unfolded here and elsewhere recently make me guardedly optimistic about where things are headed. Let me know if my involvement would be helpful.
Kindnblue
August 19, 2012 at 5:21 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you Jen! As a father of two young women, I am so proud to point them to you as someone to emulate. To quote Tom Waits off of his newest album, we need more Raised Right Men!
Carlie
August 19, 2012 at 5:23 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
For those saying it’s just humanism by another name, it’s not. Humanism doesn’t require skepticism or critical thinking skills or the scientific method. This fuses them all together, and creates something new.
grifonecoronato
August 19, 2012 at 5:35 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You have my support.
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 5:38 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You don’t get this, do you? We want to alienate people like you. If your reaction to someone’s account of not feeling safe, is to indulge in stupid, arrogant, self-righteous dismissal, then please feel unwelcome, please feel unwanted, and please leave.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 5:49 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
-_-
Exploiting errors and shoddy protection has always been the go to way for criminals to take advantage of others. From your comment it’s obvious you applaud those individuals and mock heir victims. Clearly you’re a repulsive human being.
maureen.brian
August 19, 2012 at 6:04 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As someone already said, you have our word for it. What more do you need?
hannanibal
August 19, 2012 at 6:04 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ ?
more like F-
Bjarte Foshaug
August 19, 2012 at 6:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
When did the most conservative and downright reactionary position imaginable become the “unpolitical” and ideologically “neutral” position anyway?
Joe
August 19, 2012 at 6:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The link about the rape jokes points to a post with direct examples and a link to the reddit in question. The Amazing Athiest link points to a post with direct quotations and a link to the reddit in question. The Paula Kirby link points to a post with screenshots and links to the tweets in question. The photoshop link includes the image in question. The private emails link points to a post with links to numerous pertinent sites (namely Ed’s post about it and Thunderf00t’s confession), as well as including quotations. The Amy Davis Roth link points to a post explaining all the important details, with links to evidence. The Vacula link points straight to the important screenshot.
So, no. Jen’s links point to webpages providing a sumary of the situation, with direct links to the evidence. I think I had to follow at most two links to find the quote in context.
As for Thunderf00t, he is a fairly well known identity (look up Why do People Laugh at Creationists, on Youtube), so it is rather reasonable to say he is a man. We aren’t attributing his actions to an entire gender, but using them as a data point supporting the idea that this kind of thing is widespread.
Now you are just being deliberately obtuse – Jen has linked directly to the page doing the ridiculing. I really can’t see how that is a daisy chain.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 6:10 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Here.
Haran
August 19, 2012 at 6:22 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Awesome article! I support you fully and share your ideals!
I’m hoping we can change or get rid of all the sexists who think it is fine to harass women.
jackrawlinson
August 19, 2012 at 6:22 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The problem with this post and others putting the FtB case – and also with many of the posts attacking FtB, you, and Rebecca watson – is that the argument has devolved into selective spin on both sides.
Many of the people you oppose spin your entire line as being “radical feminist”, “misandrist” and so on. This is – to a significant extent – nonsense. Unfortunately, you, PZ, Ophelia and others spin the entire opposing line as “misogynist”, “privileged”, “entitled” and so on. This, too, is – to a significant extent – nonsense.
There has been anger on your side because genuine instances of harassment and sexism have occurred and because too many knees have jerked stupidly at the very mention of the word feminism. There has been anger on the other side because genuine, reasonable questioning about the extent of the issue and the best responses to it have been met with insults, dismissiveness and lazy, fallacious misrepresentation.
I have long considered myself a feminist and have written numerous pieces on various internet boards vigorously defending equal rights and opposing sexism, harassment, the crass objectification of women and so on (e.g. here and responding to a response to that here). Now I find myself described as a “scumbag” and a “misogynist” by the increasingly intemperate and tunnel-visioned PZ Myers. According to him, I never posted anything at Pharyngula except to “…snipe at the skepchicks, argue that the interests of women weren’t worth fighting for, and dismiss any discussion of sexism.”
This is a flat lie, and one that can easily be verified as such. Myers, and others at FtB, have been indulging in this sort of abuse and dishonesty not only against genuinely abusive trolls and idiots but also against many of us who simply questioned whether all of the claims about harassment, or the extent of the need for policies, or the behaviour of Rebecca Watson regarding Steph McGrath and so on… were correct, or had been properly established. In fact we had seen that some of the claims about harassment were, initially, exaggerated and distorted but that the tendency at FtB and elsewhere was to instantly assume that the worst must be true. It did not seem unreasonable for us to suggest caution. And for this we were subjected to absolute tirades of personal abuse, dismissed as “mansplainers” (or gender traitors, in the case of dissenting women) and in some cases banned from blogs.
It became clear that apparently abuse is not necessarily bad if it comes from the “right” side. So yes, some of us got a bit annoyed about that. Being on the receiving end of double standards causes anger – as you are well aware.
The pity of it is that both sides are now seem obdurately entrenched but both need to realise that neither is being fully reasonable, and most importantly that there has been wrong done on each side. That’s the only way we’ll ever get past this. Personally, I’m not hopeful that we can, but I’d love to be proved wrong.
Lokleo
August 19, 2012 at 6:27 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Woo Hoo! I’m so ready.
I love A+.
All these mathematical atheist symbol ideas made me think of |A| ( absolute value of atheism, always positive atheism?) I don’t think it works as a symbol, just kind of fun to think about.
Thanks Jen!
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 6:34 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Feel free to present evidence that any claim of harassment in this discussion has been exaggerated or distorted by the reporters, witnesses, or anyone operating in good faith. All the distortion I’ve seen has come in the form of accusations from the harassment denying side. While you’re at it, feel free to try and present an argument against anti-sexual harassment policies that isn’t based on personal incredulity, misogyny, entitlement, and/or privilege.
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 6:41 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Bravo. This is a great idea.
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 6:46 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Not anymore, it seems. givingaid.richarddawkins.net is now “NBGA: Non-Believers Giving Aid”. So no problem there. :)
Notung
August 19, 2012 at 6:47 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree, Jack. Yes, on ‘our side’ there are unhelpful and nasty trolls, anti-feminists and even some outright misogynists, but I do feel that the discussion is being framed as if anyone that disagrees fits into one or all of those categories. I really don’t think that’s true, especially as it is possible to agree with a central message (i.e. equality) but disagree with particular details.
jackrawlinson
August 19, 2012 at 6:50 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
<
Apologies, I wasn’t clear. I’m not referring to specific matters raised in this particular post but to things that have occurred since this whole sorry business began. One example would be the “upskirt photography” thing in which the worst possible interpretation was initially assumed to be true and later even the person who first mentioned it felt it necessary to rein things back a little. Please understand: I am not saying all the reports are false, or exaggerated. I am saying that occasionally there has been a visible tendency to assume the worst on insufficient evidence. Those of us who noticed this expressed concern mainly because the rush to damnation on insufficient evidence is dangerous, and something those who consider themselves rationalists should be on the look out for.
And this is why I grow weary of this. I have not, and do not say that there should be no anti-sexual harassment policies. I said that some of us questioned the extent of the need. It is precisely this unwillingness to properly read what we do say, and this readiness to descend into straw-manning, false dichotomising and so on that so frustrates those of us who sometimes question the prevailing attitude.
skeptifem
August 19, 2012 at 6:57 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yep, its a hard fucking fall jen. You weren’t the first and won’t be the last.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 6:59 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
See: hyperskepticism. The only example you can cite is the upskirt photography, and it is entirely reasonable and rational to say that upskirt photography was extremely likely given the evidence presented. It’s unreasonable to insist on absolute proof before taking the complaints seriously.
Likewise, it is not reasonable to question the extent of harassment or the need for harassment policies except out of sheer ignorance. It’s been documented and backed up with research for years, including current detailed accounts from other conferences that are instituting policies. Questioning it now is just special pleading.
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 7:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
RDF has copyrighted the red A only “to prevent others from claiming it and blocking people from using it”. They encourage people to create their own images/materials incorporating/remixing it. http://www.outcampaign.org/promotions
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 7:05 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Perfect. <3
Michel
August 19, 2012 at 7:07 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Love it!
Notung
August 19, 2012 at 7:14 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Your certainty is enviable.
Michel
August 19, 2012 at 7:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Nicely written Jen! It’s good to see the negative comments are drowning for a change! I suppose they must feel oppressed, although what they should feel is being left behind. Yep, it’s time for the boy’s club to stop being the loudest voice.
The A+ thingy is a really good idea, although I would also like A++, being a programmer :) But since I’m also a student, A+ will do just fine!
george.w
August 19, 2012 at 7:18 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Whew! What a ride. I’m probably just gonna keep calling myself an “atheist” but totally supportive of diversity around it.
All my life I’ve read science books written by white straight dudes – enjoyed them very much but didn’t know what I was missing. Science bloggers have much more diversity than science authors had historically – I hope that is changing – and it’s opened my eyes to a larger world. Your blog is a part of that and I am certainly not unique.
It was the reaction to Rebecca Watson that really – I don’t know how to say this – pierced my heart. Years ago I’d read Gavin DeBecker on safety and he specifically mentioned women and elevators. So when RW said “Guys, don’t do that” it made perfect sense to me and seemed unremarkable. And then came the mind-boggling reaction. I just couldn’t wrap my head around it. No way in hell can I break metaphorical bread with anyone who would treat another person that way.I may have atheism in common with that person – but I am also a carbon-based life form. It doesn’t mean I will identify with them. That’s the rift you’re talking about.
I see in the comments that A+ has a lot of support but it does seem a bit “Bright-y”. Here’s my suggestion. How about An in Helvetica inside a box like a chemical symbol, where n represents diversity?
natashayar-routh
August 19, 2012 at 7:19 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Tony •King of the Hellmouth
I know there is a lot of overlap, this is a matter of emphasis for me. The concept of spoons is useful here, I just don’t have the spoons to deal with the fight for the atheist/skeptical movement.
A lot of spoons go to dealing with just being a late transitioning trans woman and I’m rather fortunate all in all. A lot of other spoons go to supporting the trans people I know many of whom are on the edge of survival. My remaining spoons go to fighting for our right to be and live our lives. I simply have none left for this fight.
I wish you and Jen well and hope you succeed in this struggle.
jackrawlinson
August 19, 2012 at 7:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
No, that is the only example I did quote because I saw no value in posting a list and getting into lengthy re-hashes of previous discussions. This does not mean it is the only example I can cite. Once again you have simply resorted to fallacy to dismiss me.
That is a mere statement of opinion, and one which is based on the idea that someone should be presumed guilty until proven innocent. Which was precisely the basis of our concerns about this and other reports. But again: I see no value in re-visiting this argument. You suggested I had no examples. So I gave one. That’s all.
It is reasonable to take all complaints seriously. It is, however, unreasonable to simply assume guilt; especially about something heinous and potentially reputation-wrecking. This was the essence of our problem.
This assertion is questionable, to say the least. Why is it unreasonable to question the extent of harassment? Surely it is not only reasonable but fair and necessary to do so, if we are to form a rational and realistic assessment of any problem at conventions? Don’t we want to get as accurate a handle on the situation as we can? And, yet again, I have not suggested that there is no need for harassment policies.
What are you implying here? How is being keen to establish an accurate understanding of a situation “special pleading”? For whom?
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 7:27 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“still fucking obsessed with Rebecca Watson two years on”
It seems like longer, but it’s only been 1 year so far since ‘elevatorgate’.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 7:29 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Feel free to read the research and share it.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/06/02/the-further-hyper-skepticism-stalling-our-conversation/
cites research with harassment ranges from 52% to 100% in the article and the first few comments.
See also:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/06/01/how-big-is-the-problem/
which provides survey data specifically from the American Secular Census. 23% of women report that unwanted advances from other participants contributed to feeling unwelcome.
stevebarman
August 19, 2012 at 7:29 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
When do we start?
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 7:36 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
No underprivileged group or person should be required to commit anything at all to this movement. They should be supported regardless.
Stephanie Zvan
August 19, 2012 at 7:37 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
We’ve been laying out the problems for a couple of years. Start here for a summary: http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/06/10/doing-away-with-drama/
jackrawlinson
August 19, 2012 at 7:38 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Precisely. And that’s why some of us lost patience, somewhat. That is why, regrettably, the discussion degenerated and polarised. I for one take great exception to being labelled a misogynist, MRA etc. simply because I am concerned about rushes to judgement and condemnation. Those things are the sign of a political movement going wrong and in danger of becoming doctrinaire and intolerant. That is what some of us see going on at some of the FtB blogs, and the fact that raising the concern resulted in absolute swathes of the most personal abuse and hectoring did not exactly alleviate that concern.
I have been a staunch supporter of women’s rights and a vocal opponent of sexism all my life so when someone lazily dismisses me as the very opposite of that – the sort of person I have fought with consistently – I am, unfortunately, likely to react unfavourably. And as I said, this has been going on in both directions. I recognise that. I want to see some sign of recognition on the FtB side too. Until we have that there will be no prospect of a meaningful reconciliation of the warring parties here, and no way to move on together. That would be a shame.
chrispederson
August 19, 2012 at 7:46 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I could not agree with you more. Civility and civil rights are for everyone. I’m in MN and my skeptic/atheist/humanist community is gender diverse (working on racial, etc) and at our regional conference the harassment policy was briefly outlined. Guess what? Everyone had a good time.
theresaklapperich
August 19, 2012 at 7:48 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
i’ve resisted for a while calling myself an atheist. partly due to an internal debate between agnosticism/atheism and secular/humanism. and partly due to being turned off by the aggressive and combative nature of many online atheist groups. now i wonder if it was the ugly hyper-masculinity of the vocal majority that was off-putting to me. i am glad to see that this might change when more ladies, and the real men, speak up and don’t put up with the ugly. A+
TonyInBatavia
August 19, 2012 at 7:49 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yep!
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 7:50 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
What’s so nice about the +, though, is that by definition, it means positive. And that’s what I think a lot of people really want: not a movement that is reactionary against something else, but something that is in itself a positive force.
RickRay
August 19, 2012 at 7:51 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A Plus ….. I love it! Until, something better comes along, I suppose!
Rabidtreeweasel
August 19, 2012 at 7:52 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A^n
The Nerd
August 19, 2012 at 7:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The fact that my local Skeptical Society of St Louis gets this makes me so enthusiastic to continue on as a member. Yesterday we had the largest Skepticamp so far, 125 attendees. And we care. If you have a problem, we want to hear about it. And that helps people continue to show up. And if we stopped wanting to make things better for our members, I can guarantee you people would stop wanting to show up.
TonyInBatavia
August 19, 2012 at 7:57 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It amazes me that this clarification still needs to be made after all this time, but I thank you for making it.
Jesse Needham
August 19, 2012 at 7:58 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It sounds like you are describing secular humanism. Since atheism is not believing the existence of an intervening god, the label should be just that, precise, without becoming a loaded word. there is too much misunderstanding of atheists already.
Socio-gen, something something...
August 19, 2012 at 8:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
FUCK YES! I’M READY! Love the A+ idea, but whatever the new movement is called, whatever its symbol, I’m all in.
plutosdad
August 19, 2012 at 8:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wow that’s the same book that taught me the same thing.
I think a lot of men don’t even think about how they are perceived. I did a little, because I am large, and because I had sisters. And maybe my parents taught me better than some. But even I never thought about elevators as locking metal boxes where you are putting your trust in the other people to not harm you.
I really think more men should read that book. It is more marketed to women which is unfortunate. The other quote from that book that really affected me and helped me understand was
“men are afraid that women will make fun of them, but women are afraid that men will kill them”
TheTruePooka
August 19, 2012 at 8:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Humanism is a legitimate philosophy.
however I’ve noticed a trend where these double issue atheists use humanism to do a left handed dismissal of issues that don’t fit their goals.
jackrawlinson
August 19, 2012 at 8:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Pteryxx, for some reason I am not seeing a reply option to your latest response to me so I will just post here. Your response contains a couple of links which I have already read, but I have to say it does not seem to actually be responding to my previous comment in a way that either recognises the specific points I made, or rebuts them. As such I find myself at a loss for a further response.
Sadly, our whole exchange illustrates one of the major concerns I have had during the whole protracted schism: some of the people on your side simply to be unwilling to listen to us or to read our words carefully, preferring instead to say rather appalling (to us)things like :”No underprivileged group or person should be required to commit anything at all to this movement. They should be supported regardless.”
I’m sorry, some of us are not going to accept that anything should be supported “regardless”. No, uncritical support – or opposition – is the domain of the doctrinaire and the “True Believer”. That is never going to work for us.
I’m bowing out of this now. I feel I have said my piece as respectfully and fairly as I can manage and I am grateful that such responses as it garnered have also been respectful. We could all do with more of that. It was a much nicer experience posting here than over at Pharyngula. :-)
postwaste
August 19, 2012 at 8:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m sure this has been covered, but I still want to say it.
The reason so many of the privileged class (of which I am a member) don’t see a problem is because they are in the privileged class. I taught my two sons from an early age that they were, because of their ethnicity, nationality, sex, gender, and later, their sexuality, were given a huge headstart in life. The choice they had to make was to continue to promote this or work to eliminate it.
There are a million things, both big and small that I will never have to deal with on a daily basis. I do have a responsibility to bring about a society that treats everyone with the same respect as I automatically get.
I have been trying to call out bad behavior when I see it at a personal level. I think more of us who have the privilege need to do this.
Ashley
August 19, 2012 at 8:04 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
YES!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the best idea! I would be so proud to be A+
julian
August 19, 2012 at 8:04 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Please explain to me, why I’m an irrational baboon dolt for suspecting someone walking around with a camera around ankle height would be taking upskirt pics?
Mark Erickson
August 19, 2012 at 8:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m wit you. Although I wouldn’t use the last gasp / dead enders argument. A vocal minority will always be there, especially since it is so easy to comment and claim you’re an atheist / skeptic. Even this could be a positive because it will be hard to get complacent.
Meet space should strive for 100% safe environment. While the same low barrier to entry exists, immediate negative feedback can actually reinforce that the environment is safe. Thanks for all your hard work and perserverance.
Jeremy Shaffer
August 19, 2012 at 8:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m totally on board with this.
It was only on the religious front that I’ve ever received any sort of discrimination that effected me personally. My response to that, however, was not to make that the one and only fight worth worrying about. Instead it helped me gain an idea of what others have to deal with, which is often on a far greater scale and way worse than what I have. I didn’t like what was happening to me so why would I be fine with it happening to others? It just seemed clear that we should help each other. I mean, we were in the same boat after all.
It surprises me, though not as much as I would have thought or liked, that in a group with so many intelligent and rational people that such an obvious reaction does not come naturally or easily.
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 8:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not, but you raise a good point. The most obvious parody comes across as childish name calling, rather than a clever insult.
Chuck Doswell
August 19, 2012 at 8:12 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Unfortunately, it’s a fact that every group of any size includes a broad spectrum of people. The fact that someone shares an idea with all of the members of that group (be it atheism, catholicism, or pot-smoking) doesn’t exclude the possibility that you will end up clashing with some members of the group. There simply is no group that ever will be a perfect match to you and your ideas. It saddens but does not surprise me that the aggregate group of atheists includes misogynists.
Clashes within atheism will never go away .. we have in commonly only one fairly small thing: the absence of a belief in a deity. Beyond, that, it’s a free-for-all. We apparently love to argue (a time well beyond the point of civility) with each other almost as much as we love to argue with theists!
I’m very sorry, Jen, that you’ve had these disillusioning experiences – likely it was bound to happen sooner or later – but don’t let them cause you to tar everyone in ‘the movement’ with the same brush. There are many of us standing in support of true equality for women, and who don’t condone misogyny in any form!
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 8:14 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Rather than telling women to be nicer about it, why not tell the men who are doing it to cut it out?
george.w
August 19, 2012 at 8:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@Carlie – sure, and any symbol requires some explanation. I also liked the comment of the fellow upthread who said ++ indicated the next thing. Another person suggested An which I liked. But as always the idea is the important thing.
@PlutosDad – “I really think more men should read that book. It is more marketed to women which is unfortunate.” Exactly. It is marketed (perhaps by male publishing company executives) to women for their strategic self-defense, but it is the responsibility of men to understand and act accordingly. Gents, go get yourself a copy of The Gift Of Fear and get educated.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 8:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
How about instead of being politely appalled, you learn to read for comprehension. My quote that you find so abhorrent reads “They should be supported regardless (of their commitment to our cause).” as it refers to the previous sentence of the statement; and that’s what it means. A rational social justice movement will support trans* people, minorities, women, the poor, male rape victims, and anyone else oppressed by discrimination, whether or not those people give two damns about atheism or have ever even heard of it. And if you find THAT appalling, good riddance to you.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 8:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sure, I’m more than willing to admit I’ve helped polarize this, been abusive and outright motivated by spite during this. What good does denying reality do me?
But that really doesn’t say anything about the abuse feminist women like McCreight have been getting for pointing out what they receive as sexism or how complicit you all have been in it You’ve tolerated it, laughed along with the jokes and done nothing to stop it.
george.w
August 19, 2012 at 8:19 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Doh! Apparently the platform didn’t like the superscript tag. I meant A^n, like an exponent. But whatever everyone comes up with is fine.
For the record, the whole A thing – a Dawkins invention – carries some Dawkins baggage with it. Love his books on evolution, but I am frequently amazed by the awful stuff he says on diversity. Guess we all have strengths and weaknesses.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 8:19 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Amazing that a handful of commenters actually have been saying ‘Atheism already has a (dictionary) definition, stop touching it!’ Sheesh.
Via linkbacks from LousyCanuck, another relevant essay just went up, specifically discussing social justice as a natural extension of atheism:
http://cognitiverevolution.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/atheism-therefore-feminism/
Badger
August 19, 2012 at 8:20 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well, atheism means “non-religious”, not “morally superior” so I’m not at all surprised that there are sexists, racists, and homophobes in the community.
I’m in support of A+ for sure.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 8:23 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Leave it to jackrawlinson to leave after completely misrepresenting someone’s point.
Onamission5
August 19, 2012 at 8:24 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It’s the good without gods part that I keep getting hung up on. Are we? I see so many examples that show we aren’t necessarily; the push back against social justice is primary. I don’t understand those who say that if we want to work on social justice, we need to separate ourselves from atheism. If we do, can we take our Gw/oG billboards with us? Why can’t I be an atheist and also concerned with humanitarianism, with equality? Can one really say they are good without gods in one breath, and rail against the ebil feminists or dismiss racist statements or engage in homophobic apologetics with the other? I posit that one cannot. If you’re not concerned with social justice, if you’re dismissive of social justice, if you’re cruel to those who fight for social justice, you’re not good without gods. You’re just an entitled person who happens not to believe in deities, and thinks that they’re all done learning now.
Thanks for this post, thanks for the work you do, just thanks.
callistacat
August 19, 2012 at 8:24 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
My experience was the same. When Dawkins said the god of the OT was a misogyinist I thought ‘Wow, he acknowledged that as an actual thing!’ That was so rare. And female genital mutilation was being taken seriously and not called “culture.” They take women’s isssues seriously too? Count me in!
But I was disillusioned way before the elevator incident. Hearing big names say things like “reality is sexist” and “there is nothing more natural than rape” didn’t help things.
rowanvt
August 19, 2012 at 8:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I will try to explain a little in the 20 minutes I have before I must leave for work. And my work figures into this.
For “on the sidewalk” sexism- I have long, blonde-brown hair that is quite shiny in sunlight. Sometimes, strangers (mostly men, a very few women) will come up behind me and pet my hair. The sexism inherent in that is that they feel some entitlement to invade my personal space in a way that they would never do to a man. This is one type of example.
Another is my workplace. I’m a vet tech. I work at a veterinary hospital and that means that most of the employees there are women. I’m 5’6″ and somewhat overweight so I don’t look that imposing. But I’m strong as hell. I can pick up a (standing) human being up to 250+ pounds and walk away with them without problem. This means that I can hoist around most of the dogs we deal with.
Sometimes animals come in that are ‘down’, meaning they can’t stand up or walk. We have a gurney, but I can usually carry in dogs up to the 80+ range on my own (before the start getting too long to handle easily). So I regularly have conversations like this:
Recept: Can you call Bob out of the boarding wards? The client requested a man to help carry their dog.
Me: I’ll be right up. I’m not busy, and I’m stronger than Bob anyway.
Recept: Okay, but they did request a guy…
Me: Hi, I’m here to help you carry your dog.
Client: Aren’t there any guys who can help? My dog is really heavy.
Me: I’m stronger than the guys here. Let’s go get your dog.
Client: I still think a guy would be better… I don’t want you to hurt yourself.
(I hoist large dog out of car and carry it to the door while client stares at me)
Me: Can you get the door for me, please?
That is a type of everyday, ‘sidewalk’ sexism. I’m female, therefore I must be weaker than *any* man.
The key thing with those examples though is that they are one-offs. I will rarely, if ever, see those people again. This is also something happening in everyday life.
Atheism, on the other hand, is a movement centered in the internet. Most of the discussions and activities happen online, or are organised online. And online, people feel safer to act out their assholeish tendencies. And some of them bring that to the events as well.
Say I was at an atheist event, and I had an occurrence of the random hair petting. I tell the guy to stop, he gets a little offended (they always are) but he stops. However… then I do the worst thing ever. I tell someone about it… on the INTERNET! D: dundunDUN! I am liable to get flooded with “it was just a compliment”, “I wouldn’t mind if a woman”, “That’s not creepy”, “It’s just ’cause the rest of you is so ugly” or other such delightful comments. And they wouldn’t be for just a short time. It could happen for months. Or years.
Elevatorgate started with something akin to “It’s a little creepy to get asked to a stranger’s room for coffee at 4 in the morning, in an elevator with only the stranger, after saying I was tired and going to bed. So guys, don’t do that.”
Now read up on all that Watson has had to deal with. THAT is atheism-sexism versus sidewalk-sexism.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 8:26 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
For what it’s worth (and I hate to plug ‘my’ symbol here) another problem with A++, |A|, A^n and similar is that the symbols only make sense to someone who already has a high degree of specialized knowledge: programming, mathematics, chemistry and similar. Atheism and skepticism already have a snooty ivory-tower reputation, and an inclusive symbol shouldn’t include what is in effect an in-joke that only the minority of highly educated people will get. Almost everyone knows that + means additive or positive; and we should be welcoming to anyone willing to learn, regardless of education level.
Antiochus Epiphanes
August 19, 2012 at 8:26 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You have my axe.
Ken
August 19, 2012 at 8:34 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Excellent challenge, I will take you up on that. In a similar vein, I love this:
http://www.morethanmen.org/2012/08/17/hey-white-guys/
Onamission5
August 19, 2012 at 8:37 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As a fellow lurker who was de-lurked by all the gross push back and a burning need to say something in defense of reason, welcome!
jonleszczynski
August 19, 2012 at 8:40 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Two points.
First, I think it really stinks that there are so many misanthropes that you have encountered in your atheist endeavors. Shame on them.
Second, I do think you should not try to combine ideas which really are not related. The NRA doesn’t spend time talking about affirmative action because that is not really relevant to what the group is primarily formed to support. Atheism, in the same manner, does not have a real connection with feminism. Now, if you were talking about a “feminist, atheist” group then both tags would apply and you might have more ammunition for that part of your argument.
I won’t use this post to go into a deep argument about feminism, I will just point out there are SOME aspects which are problematic. Title 9 was significantly bad (not in intent, but in design). Women and men are different and pretending they are equal, in everything, is not rational.
hannanibal
August 19, 2012 at 8:41 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
So being abusive and motivated by spite is fine as long as you are doing it for (what you perceive to be) good reasons? You can justify anything with that sort of logic.
I think you have been staring to long into the abyss.
hannanibal
August 19, 2012 at 8:44 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Bloody hell. All the peopele frothing at the gash over the “A+” symbol are jumping the gun a bit.
“Oh we have a symbol!!! JOY!! the battle is already over now we put a plus sign after a capital A.”
george.w
August 19, 2012 at 8:45 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“For what it’s worth (and I hate to plug ‘my’ symbol here) another problem with A++, |A|, A^n and similar is that the symbols only make sense to someone who already has a high degree of specialized knowledge: programming, mathematics, chemistry and similar.”
OK, that’s a good point. They might not make sense to someone who isn’t a total science geek.
tim
August 19, 2012 at 8:49 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Honesty and clarity is appreciated – but this is a note of respectful disagreement.
The core of scientific skepticism is that it is based on evidence and, to the degree possible, dispassionate analysis. It follows then, that it is by its nature no cognizant of privilege, gender, wealth or politics. It also follows that feelings bow to evidence and experience must be corrected for bias and preconception.
When one claims that one doesn’t “feel safe” at TAM, without attempting to analyze as to if you ARE safe – that comes across as both practically AND intellectually damaging to the movement. We are human, you and I both. Feelings can be misleading, even false. They can be a starting point for investigation only.
Many of the vile comments you referenced are repulsive to most and all sane people. To the degree that trolls are scribbling anonymously on bathroom walls – they should not be empowered. When criminal, they should be reported and hopefully prosecuted.
It feels good to link humanism with the scientific and skeptical movement. I mean that honestly. If you scratch the surface and subtract the angered personalities – we almost certainly share most of the same values and only have minor discrepancies on how we should put them into practice. But this link is dangerous and unfounded. “Scientific rationality” has been used to justify economic oppression, sexism and racism.
Because most of us hold science and skepticism dear while we recognize how it can be misused. Many are uncomfortable with its inappropriate use – even in a “good” cause. Much pain can result in good people trying to do right in the inappropriate way.
Thank you for considering my words.
Tim Reid
August 19, 2012 at 8:50 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Bravo Jen, great post and a brilliant rallying cry to move it all forwards.
A+ sounds good to me.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 8:51 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And if the NRA did consider affirmative action at all, maybe it’d be less racist. Bigotry is the default position when groups do NOT make a commitment to diversity; because of historical ignorance and silencing, and unconscious bias, among other factors.
Unfortunately you just did make a deep argument against feminism. Presuming women and men AREN’T equal, or presuming they’re different, most often can be explained by bias, and bias is not rational. See the Pharyngula feminism wiki resource, linked in the sidebar there, with scores of researched resources.
Utakata
August 19, 2012 at 8:52 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Imagine a world with no jackrawlinson’s…
Emptyell
August 19, 2012 at 8:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GREAT POST JEN!
FWIW I give it an A+
Also…
Re: Manifesto, see OP.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 8:54 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Except I don’t think it’s ok. I think it’s morally reprehensible and something that should be beneath most people. Unfortunately I’m still a vindictive person (trying to work through it). I’m not making excuses for myself nor do I want any made on my behalf. I know I fucked up several times during this making the situation worse (at least in a small way) each time.
george.w
August 19, 2012 at 8:57 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Second, I do think you should not try to combine ideas which really are not related. The NRA doesn’t spend time talking about affirmative action because that is not really relevant to what the group is primarily formed to support. Atheism, in the same manner, does not have a real connection with feminism.”
Woah, hold the phone there. Ideas do not exist in silos. If this life is the only one we will have, then how does anyone get off denigrating the life of another person living the only life they will have? And as a society how could we possibly benefit from making whole groups of people walk around feeling like crap for their membership in some demographic? Misogyny and privilege produced religion and are produced by it, shampoo, rinse, repeat. So respect for others certainly is part of the realization that we are on our own, with no god to make justice for us.
pilot
August 19, 2012 at 8:59 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well I think A+ is a great, fitting symbol. I don’t think there’s a faster way to let everybody else know just how arrogant you are. You’d grade yourselves A+ from the outset. Its perfect.
ischemgeek
August 19, 2012 at 9:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I missed this post yesterday because I was asleep for most of the day (long story short: I slept for 24 of the past 48 hours. And paying back my sleep debt was glorious). Don’t have much to say that hasn’t been said already and better than I can say it, so:
I’m with you, and I like the A+ idea.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 9:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well, it’s good that Jen provided all that relevant evidence in the OP, which is backed up by harassment and chilly climate research! Wouldn’t want someone’s stated feelings of safety or non-safety getting emotion all up in the discussion of helping women feel safe among atheists.
By the way, if you’re actually interested in the misuse of research to justify inaction against discrimination, see here for an example:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/08/19/motivated-research-on-the-wage-gap/
jonleszczynski
August 19, 2012 at 9:01 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m not opposed to feminism, I am opposed to some of the more outrageous feminist ideas. And NO, the reason men and women are not really the same is NOT mostly the result of bias. Sure it is, in SOME aspects, but there are real physical differences and even brain differences between the sexes. It is not rational to pretend those do not exist.
The NRA is not one bit racist. There are racist jerks in the NRA, but there are also plenty of non-whites in the NRA and they have never discriminated against a member because of race.
callistacat
August 19, 2012 at 9:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes, I’m trying to shove the insane ideology that I am a full human being down your poor little throat. So when Dawkins condemns misogyny and racism in religion is he doing the same?
jonleszczynski
August 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes, some ideas DO exist in silos. Sure you can mix them together, but if you want to treat them as always linked then you enter problematic areas.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 9:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And my issues started way before this. It used to be me calling women who believed in God dumb cunts whenever they’d comment on Thunderf00t’s videos.
I’ve made some progress I think :/
hannanibal
August 19, 2012 at 9:07 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fair play. I can’t fault you then.
portia
August 19, 2012 at 9:08 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Self-preservation comes first. Be well.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 9:08 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I bet it feels awful to see your superiority complex evaporate like that. Makes you seem small, and scared, and lashing out at with the feeble bit of imagined strength you have left. So, so sad.
Emptyell
August 19, 2012 at 9:09 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A misogynist reference to piss on others’ enthusiasm.
Are you really such an ass?
Though you do manage to rather succinctly illustrate Jen’s point. Thanks for that I guess.
jonleszczynski
August 19, 2012 at 9:10 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I never said women are not full humans. I’m saying to argue that there is no meaningful differences between men and women is just scientifically wrong. It is scientific fact that the brains of men and women develop differently, and it is beyond science that the bodies develop differently too. I never said either is better, so it is only on you if you feel that somebody might be slighting women by making that argument. If you feel inferior or superior because of your sex, then that is on you.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 9:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And ideas are conceived, discussed, and enacted by human beings who are universally prone to bias. Failing to address that bias does nothing to address or remove it.
Amanda M.
August 19, 2012 at 9:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen: I’m in. What’s next?
Craig McGillivary
August 19, 2012 at 9:12 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Great Post.
george.w
August 19, 2012 at 9:16 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I believe I just established a connection between atheism and diversity, based on a simple principle of reciprocity. So these two ideas, at least, are not separated by silos.
I will grant you that the NRA is well-separated from diversity. Perhaps purposely so.
felixBC
August 19, 2012 at 9:16 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Marcbarnhill–your idea sounds great, even now. Maybe the others above need to reconsider why they would oh so tastefully discourage more communication and more voices joining the conversation. But good ideas stick around, so I figure this will happen, one way or another.
hannanibal
August 19, 2012 at 9:16 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Says the people patting themselves on the back over a symbol and nothing else.
I am sure your sense of worth increased ten-fold after somebody else decided on which picture would accompany your “movement”.
It’s kind of like designing a DVD cover before you have made the movie.
danielmchugh
August 19, 2012 at 9:18 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Religion is responsible for generating and sustaining most of the racism, sexism, anti-(insert minority human subgroup here)-isms… it gave a voice to the bigotry, established the privilege, and fed these things from the pulpit for thousands upon thousands of years. What sense does it make to throw out the garbage bag of religion yet keep all the garbage that it contained?
I can’t help but see social justice as a logical consequence of atheism. I’m for getting rid of all the garbage.
george.w
August 19, 2012 at 9:19 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Of course, if one were paying attention earlier, one might think the individuals you are dissing have spent years living the movie.
jonleszczynski
August 19, 2012 at 9:19 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That doesn’t matter if you always use bias as an excuse to ignore the facts.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 9:21 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
They’re excited to finally have a direction to move in. What’s so wrong about that?
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 9:21 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
http://www.womeninsecularism.org/
http://www.secularwoman.org/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/05/23/real-progress/
julian
August 19, 2012 at 9:23 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh, hush, george. We know feminist like Jen McCreight have never done anything ever. They’ve gotten by on their looks and conning better much more talented people. It’s true. Just ask Abbie Smith.
tim
August 19, 2012 at 9:24 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Read your link to the opinion post, then reviewed the GAO document. You do know that it looked at broad categories, rather then specific jobs in a region ?
We should probably first define what economic gender discrimination IS in the workplace, then analyze quantifiable outcome variables. IMO we should control for THE specific jobs in the broad fields analyzed. The null hypothesis is that there is no gender discrimination – from which statistical significance must be proven.
There is a real danger of confirmation bias, and it is exacerbated if we share the same preconceptions and biases. If we are in conflict – as long as we play by the same scientific rules – this is good (and WHY it is important to be broadly inclusive in skepticism, BTW).
The conclusion is less important than the process. This is the core of skepticism.
blgmnts
August 19, 2012 at 9:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I disagree regarding “A++”:
An added “+” as a symbol for something “taken further” should be reasonably clear. And even the intellectually and linguistically impoverished people of “1984″ were portrayed as being able to understand “double plus whatever”. The fact that (a certain kind of) nerd can see, where “A++” came from, would be just an added treat.
Sure, we shouldn’t make people take an entry exam. But we shouldn’t treat them as idiots, either.
I mean, there is Google+, so how difficult can that be?
Jakie_paper
August 19, 2012 at 9:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Count me in. Many thanks for the excellent post.
Pteryxx
August 19, 2012 at 9:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey now, Abbie did apologize for saying Jen got in on her looks. Only for that one comment though.
joerheaume
August 19, 2012 at 9:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Consider me another atheist guy with all the privileges who is a feminist (and trans, gay, minority) ally. I think you’re right about the last loud gasp of a dying group. This is also what I think about all the amendments passing to disenfranchise homosexuals. The people in power can get it done, but they only feel the need to do it because they can smell the change coming.
And dudes, you can still get laid without resorting to sexual harassment. In fact, I think it improves your chances.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 9:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Does anyone else find this truism just plain stupid at this point?
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 9:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yeah, right, because the “A” by itself didn’t already have the same ‘problem’. :rolleyes:
Jack
August 19, 2012 at 9:31 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The humanist viewpoint that women are fully human, is a reason-based conclusion. Skepticism about the truth and moral validity of old biases about women has done great work in blunting their effect. The benefit of making more minds available for important civilization building work is being reaped even now.
It is also a properly skeptical view to recognize human desires and motives as both wonderful and dangerous. Fear of strangers, for example, is a natural human impulse. Sex is a natural human impulse. Fight or flight in the face of perceived threat is natural. Desire to maximize ones position is natural.
Becoming civilized, i.e. capable of living in city-based world, is an exercise in respecting, but taming and managing all these impulses in the best possible way. I don’t know what others’ experience has been, but mine suggests we have plenty of this kind of work left to do. We certainly have quite a bit left in what passes for the Atheist Community.
Jen and others have rightly brought evidence of ways our community performs quite poorly in these areas. It is appropriate to skepticism to take this evidence seriously. It is foolhardy to worry about the negative effects of bringing this evidence to light. The negative effects of the less-civilized aspects of our community were always there waiting to happen. It is natural to wish that they not happen now, here, to us, but there were only a few ways that was going to happen. Either women in the community would have to be something other than themselves, or kept out. The first is neither humanist, nor realistic, the second is undesirable.
Freethought, if it is to grow beyond an isolated cult (for lack of a better word), is simply going to have to integrate its worldview with all the current and future issues in civilization at large. That’s a large task. We’re not going to do a very good job of it without the equal partnership of people like the Skepchicks, or Ophelia, or Jen, or of those interested in racial discrimination or other important social issues. If we have nothing to say about this stuff other than, “we don’t want to talk about it”, why should anybody see us as a useful worldview?
Utakata
August 19, 2012 at 9:32 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is an interesting claim coming from someone who has so far demonstrated a high degree of arrogance, along with turgid ignorance when trolling their way threw FtB.
…but on that note, yes there is a degree of arrogance that can inflict anyone in any movement of any cause. Some of it’s justified, some of it is problematic. And yes, I am sure some Slimepitter dezian would deface this A+ movement (presuming it will take off) as Arrogant + or even Asshole +, but it does not take away the legitamacy this could be a movement by people who have real issues who want the world to be better and more progressive place. So trash it all you want with cute little insults, but it will unlikey stop what is happening here. /shrug
julian
August 19, 2012 at 9:38 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yeah it’s not it received constant mockery and scorn from agnostics and believers alike.
Utakata
August 19, 2012 at 9:39 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Lol, at the troll whose frothing at the gash over his ridiculous protest of this.
hoary puccoon
August 19, 2012 at 9:43 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Love the A+ !
Now, where, *specifically* are you going? I think most of the Cons now have anti-harassment policies. What else– more women speakers? Finding and supporting groups of minority atheists? Supporting gay and trans rights?
A push on an important issue gets people working together and makes the endless whine of “you just shouldn’t FEEEL that way