Once I become Dr. McCreight, I can finally make as much money as a man with a bachelor’s degree.
Bah.
Aug 09 2011
Good thing I’m working toward my PhD
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About the Author
Aug 09 2011
Once I become Dr. McCreight, I can finally make as much money as a man with a bachelor’s degree.
Bah.
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:)
61 comments
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Ben Crockett
August 9, 2011 at 6:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That’s disgusting.
Sinead Finnegan
August 9, 2011 at 6:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Bad phasing, as you do have the opportunity to earn as much as a man, you are just less likely to.
H R
August 9, 2011 at 6:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Or you could become obese, because obese single women make the same as slim married men. “Why? Because heavy women have to plan on never having a husband to help pay the bills.”http://bigthink.com/ideas/3965…
Juliegirl1313
August 9, 2011 at 7:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It has been proven that most women make less because they are either inexperienced at or scared to negotiate.
Richelle McCullough-
August 9, 2011 at 7:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Even if that is the cause, don’t you think that part of the fear of negotiating come from the fact that girls are never taught to negotiate, and that while craftiness in a man is rewarded, being a cutthroat bitch rarely is?
Kchmon
August 9, 2011 at 7:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Admittedly, I did not read the full 36-page paper, but over the past year or so I have read differing opinions from similar papers. One thing that is usually neglected is men often take positions with more risk. These jobs tend to pay more as a result. Women tend to take jobs with less risk.I wish I still had the link, but one article about a recent paper declared that women and men are actually compensated equally today, with women compensated slightly more overall. Without the link, I admit my statement could be considered here-say.
JM
August 9, 2011 at 7:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The best career opportunities for women come at a huge price. If Jen ever wants children, she may have to wait until after receiving tenure or arrange to have a partner or housekeeper or nanny who does most child care.
Sinead Finnegan
August 9, 2011 at 7:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And a man would not have to do this, why?
Tony
August 9, 2011 at 7:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
What are the controls for these statistics? I don’t doubt that there’s an overall trend but if they’re lumping engineering and education grads together as “bachelors degrees” their study is fail.
Jojo
August 9, 2011 at 7:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Also, the report is extremely unclear on whether experience in taken into account. I remember several studies that showed that if you corrected for experience, the gap nearly disappeared. Women are more likely to leave the workforce for a few years to have kids, therefore miss out on opportunities that come with staying there. Not that there isn’t a problem, just saying this is merely a symptom.
Jen
August 9, 2011 at 7:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Female faculty members in the same field make less money than their male coworkers: http://depts.washington.edu/wo… was a great infographic I saw not that long ago that illustrated the pay gap within fields, showing it still existed even when women have the same jobs (aka, taking as much risk). I can’t find it though…anyone else know what I’m talking about?
Sinead Finnegan
August 9, 2011 at 7:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Doing the same job doesn’t imply taking the same risk at all =/ Asking for more money or voicing your own ideas would be taking more risk.
Jen
August 9, 2011 at 7:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Kchmon said “women tend to take jobs with less risk.” That’s the argument that women are in different jobs which are inherently less risky. If they’re in the same job, then that’s controlled for.Job-independent risks like asking for raises is a whole other story. We know women have been socialized to suck at that, and suffer because of it.
Luke Edwards
August 9, 2011 at 7:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Because men don’t have to take time off for the whole birthing and physical recovery process the woman does?Also less crucial but there are social pressures for women to take time off work to raise their children but this social pressure is nearly invisible for men.
Sinead Finnegan
August 9, 2011 at 7:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That was not the argument. The argument was on child care, not maternity leave.
Neal
August 9, 2011 at 7:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, while this may be true in some fields, it is not true across the board. My experience as an instructor in English is that pay grade is based on degree attainment and seniority, regardless of gender. This does not rule out gender-based differences in hiring, of course, which could mean that female faculty are less likely to land more prestigious and higher-paying positions.
Luke Edwards
August 9, 2011 at 8:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think it is but you can infer it isn’t if you want. “If Jen ever wants children, she may have to wait until after receiving tenure *or*” can separate or link ideas. I saw that as two ideas and you are not contending it so I guess we agree there.However you did ignore the second point which does address child care. Social pressures are much harder to quantify but I think many would agree they are there.
Sinead Finnegan
August 9, 2011 at 8:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t really follow what you think I am inferring. Social norms are best dealt with by individually ignoring them, in my opinion. If I don’t meet a man who isn’t willing to do half the housework and half the child care, I won’t be getting married. Social norms are also very different depending on where you are.. I grew up not noticing any stay at home mothers or men who did nothing around the house. The one social pressure that does really bug me is the idea that every woman must think about whether she will want to have children when making every career decision.
Azkyroth
August 9, 2011 at 8:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
What level of risk is involved in goalpost transport and how does it pay?
Azkyroth
August 9, 2011 at 8:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Do you not see a problem with that burden being placed solely on women, and no effort being made to compensate them for the sacrifices demanded in them being given the responsibility of providing society with a next generation?
Ginx
August 9, 2011 at 8:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I doubt that. I have a Bachelor’s and I can’t even find work.
Daniel Schealler
August 9, 2011 at 9:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Someone told me once about a study that showed that when women made similar sacrifices to men in terms of working long hours or not having taken time off to raise children, the pay gap closed to 98%.I never actually got a link to the study though.It all sounds very fishy and convenient to me – it raises a few red flags to my skepticism.But of course, it could still turn out to be true.I don’t suppose you can remember the name of the study you read? It would help for searching.
Luke Edwards
August 9, 2011 at 9:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I see your point and ignoring annoying social norms is probably a great idea but often times I want to challenge social norms for groups I do not belong to (women, gay, trans, racial, etc…). When I want to change the culture for norms that are expected of me than ignoring them works but if I want to change the social norms in the way LGBT are seen then I feel I have to actively highlight the issue.Anyway I do think you make a good point and I am hesitant to say too much on social pressures that are hard to quantify but a concern if these pressures lead to bias in hiring and promotion decisions is really important. Anecdotally I have seen it myself.
Sinead Finnegan
August 9, 2011 at 9:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I do agree it is important to discuss these things but I think we should be very wary on how we phrase what we say. Studying trends in society is never going to be absolute. You can’t hold every single other variable constant. Anecdotally I’ve seen women get ahead when the man was arguable the better choice… I don’t want anybody wondering did I get where I am because they wanted a woman for the pictures. Feminism should be fighting for paternity leave and father’s rights in my opinion. (Major issues in Ireland, no idea how men stand in the rest of the world) When men are our equals in the home, women will have the time to show we are equals in the workplace. **** collectively, as there are plenty of women who are high earners and successful career women.
Villa
August 9, 2011 at 9:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It could be something like: http://www.irs.princeton.edu/s…The authors look at MBA graduates. They find a large gender-gap in earnings. But they attribute much of the gap to differences in job interruptions and hours worked and pre-MBA training.These discussions are always hard because it can be hard to defined what we mean by discrimination. For instance, interruptions seem to cause similar losses for both genders. And they are disproportionately taken by women. But it’s not clear that taking a break from work is a ‘wrong’ choice even if it’s an earnings-reducing choice.
Thomas Everett Haynes
August 9, 2011 at 11:33 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That sounds like a personal problem. Nobody taught me to negotiate for anything. It’s not like parents actually sit you town and teach you how to live, if you want something you go out and learn it. Sure society does not like a cutthroat bitch, so maybe these women need to be more aggressive negotiators and be polite about it.Mind you so do a lot of men, some guys are just… bitches.
Thomas Everett Haynes
August 9, 2011 at 11:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I see a problem in assuming that it is somehow a responsibility for women to make the next generation. They are not required to at all, and with the large variety of contraceptives and large span of time to get an abortion (in places where it is allowed) having a child is (in the USA at least) a choice, not a burden (at least until you have the kids, but even then you can put them up for adoption or leave it at a fire station). If you want to spend all your time pushing your career forward, then that is what you do, and just as the cliché father figure will sacrifice time with his family- or not have one, so to must a woman if she wants to progress her career forward. It’s a choice, we can’t have everything.
MrsAtheist
August 9, 2011 at 11:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is related http://geekfeminism.org/2011/0…
ckitching
August 10, 2011 at 12:40 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Because parental leave is still too rare. Instead maternity leave is usually the only thing offered to new parents. This has given employers a convenient excuse for not paying women what they’re worth for way too long. Time for it to end, IMO.
Timmy Hunter-Kilmer
August 10, 2011 at 12:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yeah, you’re already getting more than this unemployed male college graduate. Not that I dispute your overall point, but sometimes griping about it makes me feel better.
Ginx
August 10, 2011 at 12:55 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
She does have the benefit of lower overall unemployment by having the PhD. It’s still a travesty that there is a pay gap, I’m just saying that she has at least gained something through her additional education.
Inkhat
August 10, 2011 at 2:54 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
When I was an English instructor I saw plenty of bias in the upper levels, regardless of experience. What really makes me nervous is some of the gender studies in rhetoric and composition, which still discuss the feminisation of English as a negative thing. I’ve even seen articles which blame the influx of female profs. It’s really hard in English departments because generally they are outwardly liberal.
Allen Gould
August 10, 2011 at 3:17 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I would argue that the burden isn’t solely on women. While us men can’t help with the core biological issues (gotta wait for Jen to turn evil and Mad for that), it’s entirely possible in many areas for men to take a share of maternity leave (and thus the hit from lost work). Personal example: I took four months off work when my wife went back early (she really loves her job, and I was happy to take a summer to play with our newborn). My wife’s job puts her out of town often during the summer, so our schedules are arranged that I drop off our child at day care and pick her up. She does more of the cleaning, but I honestly just plain suck at it – in trade I do all the jobs she hates doing. But to reaffirm an earlier poster – if your boyfriend/fiance can’t or won’t clean, cook, or change a diaper (easy test: volunteer to babysit a friend/relative’s newborn for a weekend), then he’s probably not worth it. (Or at least you know what you’re getting into).p.s. Seriously – borrowing a kid for the weekend is a great pre-test before having your own, and it gives the parents a well-deserved break.
Gary Usleaman
August 10, 2011 at 3:36 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Coincidentally, I shared this study with some coworkers today (before I saw it here).
OneSTDV
August 10, 2011 at 3:50 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
These studies are bull, as the statistical analysis is amazingly bad. The “comparisons” broached in these studies wouldn’t pass a 9th grade math exam:http://www.city-journal.org/20…
Peter B
August 10, 2011 at 4:42 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Is it because you’re flapping about on the pavement going “Herp…derp”?
Jadehawk
August 10, 2011 at 6:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
because even today it’s possible for a man to have children without being involved much in child care. Men don’t often have to choose between having a career or having children, while women still sometimes do
Jadehawk
August 10, 2011 at 6:04 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Social norms are best dealt with by individually ignoring them, in my opinion.”lol. ignore childcare, and CPS is going to be on your doorstep in no time. it would take at least two people willing to go completely against social norms for a woman to be able to have a career and children in a way comparable to the way men can
Azkyroth
August 10, 2011 at 7:07 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Do you not think it counts as being “taught” something unless it comes with a textbook and a test later?
Azkyroth
August 10, 2011 at 7:08 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
For any one woman, yes.You’re aware that patterns and policies can operate above the level of the individual, yes?
Phillip2
August 10, 2011 at 7:56 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You mentioned in another post that you are pro-porn. Last time I checked, female porn actresses made much more than their male, errm, counterparts. The fight for equal pay for equal work starts here!
Thomas Everett Haynes
August 10, 2011 at 8:23 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Haha, no. Funny notion. But seriously, what is “taught” in these days of hands off parenting. How did you learn to negotiate?
Thomas Everett Haynes
August 10, 2011 at 8:28 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I am very much aware of this, yes.
Svlad Cjelli
August 10, 2011 at 8:40 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“it would take at least two people willing to go completely against social norms for a woman to be able to have a career and children in a way comparable to the way men can”Convenient omission, Jadehawk. The quote continues.”Social norms are best dealt with by individually ignoring them, in my opinion. If I don’t meet a man who isn’t willing to do half the housework and half the child care, I won’t be getting married.”
Svlad Cjelli
August 10, 2011 at 8:52 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
There’s been sort of an opposite problem in Sweden. I haven’t kept up with the debate in recent years, but there was highly gender specific parental leave here. Mothers got a couple of mothering months and fathers got a couple of fathering months.In a fully rational society, I suggest that parents would get a full set of parenting months instead. So that one parent can cover for another parent regardless of sexes, you know, almost as if they were a team of some kind. And almost as if individual circumstances could eclipse large scale sex politics at an individual level of events.
Svlad Cjelli
August 10, 2011 at 9:00 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh, I can answer that one. My father used to tell me to be obstinate or be pushed around, take what I want or not get anything, and that in this world, “everyone is always trying to fuck you in the ass.”
Svlad Cjelli
August 10, 2011 at 9:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
He also taught me to not touch the stove by telling me touch it, though.
Svlad Cjelli
August 10, 2011 at 9:08 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As for negotiation: Isn’t that what unions are for?
Daniel Schealler
August 10, 2011 at 9:18 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve bookmarked that to have a decent read next time I have a chance.Thanks for that.
Unamusement Park
August 10, 2011 at 12:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Drop the PhD and start a family instead. You seem like a nice white girl.
Carlie
August 10, 2011 at 2:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
More likely, because they know they have to work twice as hard to overcome the “fat people are lazy” stigma that follows them everywhere.
Azkyroth
August 10, 2011 at 7:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Is the work actually equal?(What the fuck was wrong with Discus last night?)
Azkyroth
August 10, 2011 at 7:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And the sick thing is, I have no idea if you’re joking. :(
Phillip2
August 11, 2011 at 6:57 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I was going to use the familiar British expression “suck it and see”, but that might come out the wrong end here. :-) Try it out. Which is more work: for a man to do, say, 5 sex scenes, or for a woman to?
enuma
August 11, 2011 at 1:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It still boils down to sexism. Studies have shown that women who do negotiate are perceived differently from men. A man who asks for a raise is a go-getter. A woman who asks for a raise is an entitled bitch.
Neal
August 11, 2011 at 3:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well, on the plus side, it will be just awesome to be named “Doctor McRight.”
Edward Clint
August 12, 2011 at 6:02 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
There can be substantial difference in risk even for the same profession. A doctor can decide to be staff at a hospital, or open their own practice. According to Steven Pinker in “The Blank Slate” (247), men are more likely to work for a corporation and women the government or non-profit orgs. One pays more than the other, even for the same job. Women will also make other trade-offs more often men do, like to work closer to home, in a better facility, with more flexible hours, etc.., but there is naturally more competition for such jobs and thus, lower pay. Furchtgott-Roth & Stolba used data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth and determined that childless women ages 27-33 earn 98% of when men in that age range earn. The point here is that raw data on differences in pay are inadequate to prove anything about sexism. You have to control for all relevant psychological factors. Here is a Dept. of Labor commissioned study on the wage gap: http://www.the-spearhead.com/w…Quote from the forward, written by the DoL: “Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers. “
. Woden87
August 17, 2011 at 1:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
But child support is a *legal* issue, not simply a social norm. That’s an apples-to-oranges comparison.
doctressjulia
August 19, 2011 at 1:00 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
‘If I don’t meet a man who isn’t willing to do half the housework and half the child care, I won’t be getting married.’BWAAHAHA!! Good luck with that one, kiddo…
doctressjulia
August 19, 2011 at 1:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
THIS.
doctressjulia
August 19, 2011 at 1:05 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh, snap. XD