Demand that Montreal Police take death threats against atheists seriously »« Someone knows me too well

Comments

  1. Juliegirl1313 says

    It has been proven that most women make less because they are either inexperienced at or scared to negotiate.

  2. Richelle McCullough- says

    Even if that is the cause, don’t you think that part of the fear of negotiating come from the fact that girls are never taught to negotiate, and that while craftiness in a man is rewarded, being a cutthroat bitch rarely is?

  3. Kchmon says

    Admittedly, I did not read the full 36-page paper, but over the past year or so I have read differing opinions from similar papers. One thing that is usually neglected is men often take positions with more risk. These jobs tend to pay more as a result. Women tend to take jobs with less risk.I wish I still had the link, but one article about a recent paper declared that women and men are actually compensated equally today, with women compensated slightly more overall. Without the link, I admit my statement could be considered here-say.

  4. JM says

    The best career opportunities for women come at a huge price.  If Jen ever wants children, she may have to wait until after receiving tenure or arrange to have a partner or housekeeper or nanny who does most child care.

  5. Tony says

    What are the controls for these statistics? I don’t doubt that there’s an overall trend but if they’re lumping engineering and education grads together as “bachelors degrees” their study is fail.

  6. Jojo says

    Also, the report is extremely unclear on whether experience in taken into account.  I remember several studies that showed that if you corrected for experience, the gap nearly disappeared.  Women are more likely to leave the workforce for a few years to have kids, therefore miss out on opportunities that come with staying there.  Not that there isn’t a problem, just saying this is merely a symptom.

  7. says

    Female faculty members in the same field make less money than their male coworkers: http://depts.washington.edu/wo… was a great infographic I saw not that long ago that illustrated the pay gap within fields, showing it still existed even when women have the same jobs (aka, taking as much risk). I can’t find it though…anyone else know what I’m talking about?

  8. says

    Kchmon said “women tend to take jobs with less risk.” That’s the argument that women are in different jobs which are inherently less risky. If they’re in the same job, then that’s controlled for.Job-independent risks like asking for raises is a whole other story. We know women have been socialized to suck at that, and suffer because of it.

  9. says

    Because men don’t have to take time off for the whole birthing and physical recovery process the woman does?Also less crucial but there are social pressures for women to take time off work to raise their children but this social pressure is nearly invisible for men.

  10. Neal says

    Jen, while this may be true in some fields, it is not true across the board.  My experience as an instructor in English is that pay grade is based on degree attainment and seniority, regardless of gender.  This does not rule out gender-based differences in hiring, of course, which could mean that female faculty are less likely to land more prestigious and higher-paying positions.

  11. says

    I think it is but you can infer it isn’t if you want. “If Jen ever wants children, she may have to wait until after receiving tenure *or*” can separate or link ideas. I saw that as two ideas and you are not contending it so I guess we agree there.However you did ignore the second point which does address child care. Social pressures are much harder to quantify but I think many would agree they are there.

  12. says

    I don’t really follow what you think I am inferring. Social norms are best dealt with by individually ignoring them, in my opinion. If I don’t meet a man who isn’t willing to do half the housework and half the child care, I won’t be getting married. Social norms are also very different depending on where you are.. I grew up not noticing any stay at home mothers or men who did nothing around the house. The one social pressure that does really bug me is the idea that every woman must think about whether she will want to have children when making every career decision.

  13. Azkyroth says

    Do you not see a problem with that burden being placed solely on women, and no effort being made to compensate them for the sacrifices demanded in them being given the responsibility of providing society with a next generation?

  14. says

    Someone told me once about a study that showed that when women made similar sacrifices to men in terms of working long hours or not having taken time off to raise children, the pay gap closed to 98%.I never actually got a link to the study though.It all sounds very fishy and convenient to me – it raises a few red flags to my skepticism.But of course, it could still turn out to be true.I don’t suppose you can remember the name of the study you read? It would help for searching.

  15. says

    I see your point and ignoring annoying social norms is probably a great idea but often times I want to challenge social norms for groups I do not belong to (women, gay, trans, racial, etc…). When I want to change the culture for norms that are expected of me than ignoring them works but if I want to change the social norms in the way LGBT are seen then I feel I have to actively highlight the issue.Anyway I do think you make a good point and I am hesitant to say too much on social pressures that are hard to quantify but a concern if these pressures lead to bias in hiring and promotion decisions is really important. Anecdotally I have seen it myself.

  16. says

    I do agree it is important to discuss these things but I think we should be very wary on how we phrase what we say. Studying trends in society is never going to be absolute. You can’t hold every single other variable constant. Anecdotally I’ve seen women get ahead when the man was arguable the better choice… I don’t want anybody wondering did I get where I am because they wanted a woman for the pictures. Feminism should be fighting for paternity leave and father’s rights in my opinion. (Major issues in Ireland, no idea how men stand in the rest of the world) When men are our equals in the home, women will have the time to show we are equals in the workplace. **** collectively, as there are plenty of women who are high earners and successful career women.

  17. Villa says

    It could be something like: http://www.irs.princeton.edu/s…The authors look at MBA graduates.  They find a large gender-gap in earnings.  But they attribute much of the gap to differences in job interruptions and hours worked and pre-MBA training.These discussions are always hard because it can be hard to defined what we mean by discrimination.  For instance, interruptions seem to cause similar losses for both genders.  And they are disproportionately taken by women.  But it’s not clear that taking a break from work is a ‘wrong’ choice even if it’s an earnings-reducing choice.

  18. says

    That sounds like a personal problem. Nobody taught me to negotiate for anything. It’s not like parents actually sit you town and teach you how to live, if you want something you go out and learn it. Sure society does not like a cutthroat bitch, so maybe these women need to be more aggressive negotiators and be polite about it.Mind you so do a lot of men, some guys are just… bitches.

  19. says

    I see a problem in assuming that it is somehow a responsibility for women to make the next generation. They are not required to at all, and with the large variety of contraceptives and large span of time to get an abortion (in places where it is allowed) having a child is (in the USA at least) a choice, not a burden (at least until you have the kids, but even then you can put them up for adoption or leave it at a fire station). If you want to spend all your time pushing your career forward, then that is what you do, and just as the cliché father figure will sacrifice time with his family- or not have one, so to must a woman if she wants to progress her career forward. It’s a choice, we can’t have everything.

  20. ckitching says

    Because parental leave is still too rare.  Instead maternity leave is usually the only thing offered to new parents.  This has given employers a convenient excuse for not paying women what they’re worth for way too long.  Time for it to end, IMO.

  21. says

    She does have the benefit of lower overall unemployment by having the PhD. It’s still a travesty that there is a pay gap, I’m just saying that she has at least gained something through her additional education.

  22. Inkhat says

    When I was an English instructor I saw plenty of bias in the upper levels, regardless of experience.  What really makes me nervous is some of the gender studies in rhetoric and composition, which still discuss the feminisation of English as a negative thing.  I’ve even seen articles which blame the influx of female profs.  It’s really hard in English departments because generally they are outwardly liberal.

  23. says

    I would argue that the burden isn’t solely on women. While us men can’t help with the core biological issues (gotta wait for Jen to turn evil and Mad for that), it’s entirely possible in many areas for men to take a share of maternity leave (and thus the hit from lost work). Personal example: I took four months off work when my wife went back early (she really loves her job, and I was happy to take a summer to play with our newborn). My wife’s job puts her out of town often during the summer, so our schedules are arranged that I drop off our child at day care and pick her up. She does more of the cleaning, but I honestly just plain suck at it – in trade I do all the jobs she hates doing. But to reaffirm an earlier poster – if your boyfriend/fiance can’t or won’t clean, cook, or change a diaper (easy test: volunteer to babysit a friend/relative’s newborn for a weekend), then he’s probably not worth it. (Or at least you know what you’re getting into).p.s. Seriously – borrowing a kid for the weekend is a great pre-test before having your own, and it gives the parents a well-deserved break.

  24. says

    because even today it’s possible for a man to have children without being involved much in child care. Men don’t often have to choose between having a career or having children, while women still sometimes do

  25. says

    “Social norms are best dealt with by individually ignoring them, in my opinion.”lol. ignore childcare, and CPS is going to be on your doorstep in no time. it would take at least two people willing to go completely against social norms for a woman to be able to have a career and children in a way comparable to the way men can

  26. Azkyroth says

    Do you not think it counts as being “taught” something unless it comes with a textbook and a test later?

  27. Azkyroth says

    For any one woman, yes.You’re aware that patterns and policies can operate above the level of the individual, yes?

  28. Phillip2 says

    You mentioned in another post that you are pro-porn.  Last time I checked, female porn actresses made much more than their male, errm, counterparts.  The fight for equal pay for equal work starts here!

  29. Svlad Cjelli says

    “it would take at least two people willing to go completely against social norms for a woman to be able to have a career and children in a way comparable to the way men can”Convenient omission, Jadehawk. The quote continues.”Social norms are best dealt with by individually ignoring them, in my opinion. If I don’t meet a man who isn’t willing to do half the housework and half the child care, I won’t be getting married.”

  30. Svlad Cjelli says

    There’s been sort of an opposite problem in Sweden. I haven’t kept up with the debate in recent years, but there was highly gender specific parental leave here. Mothers got a couple of mothering months and fathers got a couple of fathering months.In a fully rational society, I suggest that parents would get a full set of parenting months instead. So that one parent can cover for another parent regardless of sexes, you know, almost as if they were a team of some kind. And almost as if  individual circumstances could eclipse large scale sex politics at an individual level of events.

  31. Svlad Cjelli says

    Oh, I can answer that one. My father used to tell me to be obstinate or be pushed around, take what I want or not get anything, and that in this world, “everyone is always trying to fuck you in the ass.”

  32. Carlie says

    More likely, because they know they have to work twice as hard to overcome the “fat people are lazy” stigma that follows them everywhere.

  33. Phillip2 says

    I was going to use the familiar British expression “suck it and see”, but that might come out the wrong end here.  :-)  Try it out.  Which is more work: for a man to do, say, 5 sex scenes, or for a woman to?

  34. says

    It still boils down to sexism.  Studies have shown that women who do negotiate are perceived differently from men.  A man who asks for a raise is a go-getter.  A woman who asks for a raise is an entitled bitch.

  35. Edward Clint says

    There can be substantial difference in risk even for the same profession. A doctor can decide to be staff at a hospital, or open their own practice. According to Steven Pinker in “The Blank Slate” (247), men are more likely to work for a corporation and women the government or non-profit orgs. One pays more than the other, even for the same job. Women will also make other trade-offs more often men do, like to work closer to home, in a better facility, with more flexible hours, etc.., but there is naturally more competition for such jobs and thus, lower pay. Furchtgott-Roth & Stolba used data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth and determined that childless women ages 27-33 earn 98% of when men in that age range earn. The point here is that raw data on differences in pay are inadequate to prove anything about sexism. You have to control for all relevant psychological factors. Here is a Dept. of Labor commissioned study on the wage gap: http://www.the-spearhead.com/w…Quote from the forward, written by the DoL: “Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action.  Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers. “

  36. . Woden87 says

    But child support is a *legal* issue, not simply a social norm. That’s an apples-to-oranges comparison.

  37. says

    ‘If I don’t meet a man who isn’t willing to do half the housework and half the child care, I won’t be getting married.’BWAAHAHA!! Good luck with that one, kiddo…

Leave a Reply