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Mar 02 2012

Help Natalie fight the good fight

Hey gang, Natalie Reed — a recent guest on Godless Bitches — is a member of two distinct minority communities.  She is both atheist and transgendered.  Those communities apparently, at best, share an uneasy alliance.  Much like I’ve learned to expect that any remotely pro-feminism post here will receive vocal disapproval from many atheists, Natalie’s trans community has a number of anti-atheists who don’t think they should hold back from shouting indignantly at the godless.

Thus, her latest post, “God Does Not Love Trans People“, is guaranteed to get a pile of cranky comments from a bunch of members of one group crossing over into the atheist blogosphere.  You see, it’s like this:

“Lately there have been a number of posts circulating throughout the trans blogosphere making statements to the effect that God loves and accepts His transgender children, and that being trans is not necessarily in conflict with being a religious believer, or even a Christian, Muslim or Jew. While I perfectly understand the motivation behind these posts, and why people feel such a strong need for this message, I nonetheless find it very deeply problematic, and kinda sorta feel a bit of a compelling need to address it. See, I honestly believe that religious faith is inherently dangerous and harmful, that we, the queer community, often are especially victimized by it, and especially ought to understand its potential harms, that the danger is an element of the underlying definition of religious faith itself rather than simply particular sects, beliefs or institutions based upon it, and that we are doing ourselves a pretty big disservice in constructing apologetics (or encouraging them) designed to ease the dissonance between our identities and the belief systems we hold dear.”

Go and give these commenters a warm welcome, won’t you?  Be respectful — and please stay away if you’re the sort who just wants some other oppositional minority to pick on. But if you see any nonsensical claims about the godless and their habits rearing their ugly head, verily I say to you that you must smack them down with great gusto.

 

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  1. 1
    Theodoric

    Religion is, amongst many things, a system to retain old values and morals, and is very good at it, even though reason and changing insights show that those values and morals are horribly dated, backward and very damaging. I can’t think of any rights movement that hasn’t suffered religious opposition.

    It’s interesting how Christianity, theologically very much opposed to any sign of sexuality, seems to attract hypermasculine style thinking, which just reinforces opposition to LGBT rights and yes, womens’ rights. Socially conservative minds all think alike, apparently.

    1. 1.1
      Beth

      I can’t think of any rights movement that hasn’t suffered religious opposition.

      While I agree with this, the opposite is also true. From the abolition of slavery to the LGBT movement, I can’t think of any succcessful rights movement that hasn’t benefitted from religious support. For example, there were churches performing same-sex marriages decades before it was legal anywhere in the U.S.A.

      1. Xanthë, Amy of my threads

        Beth, that’s unrepresentative and I think you know it. So what if a vanishingly small minority of churches are ahead of the wave. The rest are firmly lagging behind the Zeitgeist and still promoting the socially repressive shit, and will then retrospectively claim that they were in favour of it… much, much later.

      2. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

        LOL, yeah, that really helped GLBT people gain their rights… as opposed to, y’know, ACT-UP stuffing condoms into the poor boxes and otherwise getting in people’s faces.

  2. 2
    michaelbuchheim

    It’s always so isn’t it? Once you strip away religious trappings from the arguments against acceptance of transgenders or any other nontraditional sexual identity, the arguments are laid bare as empty and\or hateful. Ive seen and heard people bend over backwards to have a certain religion accept them through blunt re-interpretation of passages and tradition. Sometime they even succeed in finding a religious community that tolerates them based on these flimsy reinterpretations.
    But honestly, I never understood the point. It wasn’t religious reasons that led the Mormons to abandon polygamy, Christianity to abolish slavery and Judaism to recognize women’s rights. It was always society imposing a change – then religious people bend over backwards to explain why the norm is in line with their scripture.
    Leave the hard work of reinterpreting scripture to jam with modern morals and ideas to the professional apologetic. Focus on legal recognition, the gods will change their minds soon after you get it anyway.

    1. 2.1
      Lausten North

      I’ll probably have more to say, but this sums up the cause and affect pretty well. The devil of course is in the details. i.e. just what adjustments have to be made to those reinterpretations fit.

  3. 3
    heisenbug

    I am an atheist and I find homosexuality and transgender disgusting the same way as I find pickles disgusting. However, I will never persecute someone who loves pickles if they do not force me to eat pickles or anything of the sort.

    The feminism bit is a little more complicated, though. The evolution in our society and in nature did assign specific gender roles to us. I believe that a person should be free to break from their assigned role, however, many feminists at the same time often complain that “there are no good men out there”. Usually people do not find masculated women attractive, the same way as efeminated men are not found attractive. To me, it is kinda hypocritical to ask for equality and at the same time bitch at men for changing as well.

    The sudden social revolution in the 20th century did create a sort of crisis of values in humanity. Not to say that it is a bad thing (racism is no longer accepted by the general public), but all those sudden changes are certainly an uncormfotable one for most people and not all of them can be classified as good.

    1. 3.1
      42oolon

      Heisenbug. Your feelings go disgust about pickles are uncontroversial. Few people connect taste for pickles as central to their identity. Hence there will be little offense taken by theses remarks.

      Your expression of disgust with homosexuality and trans. is troubling. In the context of homophobia that folks in these communities face, I hope you can understand that it is difficult to separate your disgust from hate. To say that homosexuality is disgusting to you is no different, to my ears from saying white people are disgusting to you. It may be an honest sentiment, and it may actually not even be formally racist, but it is not helping and offensive in most contexts.

      Your disgust is not your fault, and there should be a forum for you to express that in furtherance of understanding the challenges of diversity. This is not that forum. It is a call to support Natalie, not express disgust at central elements of her identity.

      1. George From NY

        Oh, brother.

        SIBLING! I mean sibling.

        I didn’t see one thing in Heisen’s posts which could be fairly read as a call to harass or oppose Natalie or any gay/trans person.

        He pretty clearly DOES support her, although with reservations about modern feminism. Big deal.

        As for his personal attitudes about men playing hide the salami with other men, or who don’t want to BE men… so what? “De gustibus non est disputandum,” and all that.

        Some people are creeped out by such things; others not. People feel what they feel. What matters is why, and what they intend to do about it.

        True, this is not the forum for that discussion – but based on the reactions I’m seeing, such a discussion with you lot would amount to nothing more than ad hominem accusations of “hate,” condescending pedantry and armchair-psych claptrap.

        Yeah, I’m sure Heisen can’t wait for such an enriching discourse.

        Now I’m off to read Natalie’s piece…

        1. LykeX

          Some people are creeped out by such things; others not. People feel what they feel. What matters is why, and what they intend to do about it.

          Yes and in this case what he did was express his personal disgust with a fundamental pat of the personality of an individual, when the purpose of the opening post was to solicit support for that individual. Not helpful.

          based on the reactions I’m seeing, such a discussion with you lot would amount to nothing more than ad hominem accusations of “hate,” condescending pedantry and armchair-psych claptrap.

          So, he gets to express his feelings, however inappropriate and irrelevant, but if anyone disagrees, they should shut up.
          Got it.

          Incidentally, I think 42oolon was very calm and respectful in his reply. In many other forums heisenbug would have had his own kidneys served to him in tomato sauce by now.

          Yeah, I’m sure Heisen can’t wait for such an enriching discourse.

          If he didn’t want to have such a discussion, then maybe he shouldn’t have started it.

        2. Martin Wagner

          I didn’t see one thing in Heisen’s posts which could be fairly read as a call to harass or oppose Natalie or any gay/trans person.

          And I didn’t see 42oolon accusing Heisenbug of any of those things. He simply pointed out that the leap from disgust to hate is one a lot of people find easy to make, and so feelings of disgust towards any out-group ought to be something you find “troubling,” even if you would never, as Heisenbug assures is, persecute anyone.

          I once felt disgust at gays and lesbians and extreme discomfort in their presence. I would never in a million years have allowed that to become physical, but even so, I realized it was a problem in me, not in gays and lesbians, and I had to do a lot of inner work to get past it and realize how foolish it was. My disgust/quasi-hate/whatever you call it hurt only me, not anyone else. Anything you do to hurt yourself needlessly ought to be troubling to you.

          True, this is not the forum for that discussion – but based on the reactions I’m seeing, such a discussion with you lot would amount to nothing more than ad hominem accusations of “hate,” condescending pedantry and armchair-psych claptrap.

          Well, there’s nothing like a little poisoning the well to cut such a discussion off at the knees, is there.

          1. LykeX

            I realized it was a problem in me, not in gays and lesbians, and I had to do a lot of inner work to get past it and realize how foolish it was

            This. I’ve had much the same experience and I think it’s entirely the right response. Recognize that this is your hang-up, stop airing your dirty laundry in front of others and start working on figuring out why you have that reaction.

            Nobody is blaming heisenbug for what he feels. The response comes because of what he said.

        3. Rey Fox

          He pretty clearly DOES support her, although with reservations about modern feminism. Big deal.

          His “reservations” about modern feminism are complete crap that he made up. That’s why he’s getting opposition.

          As for his personal attitudes about men playing hide the salami with other men

          Gee, you have such a mature attitude about the subject.

          Some people are creeped out by such things; others not. People feel what they feel. What matters is why, and what they intend to do about it.

          What matters is why they feel the need to inform others of their personal distaste for their sexuality. What is the point, other than that they’re insecure about how others view them and are afraid of being considered to be gay by others. Why would this be, if it weren’t for the implicit assumption that homosexuality is bad?

          In short, there’s no good reason to say it, and it’s just one of the many many microaggressions that homosexual people have to deal with in society day in and day out.

          True, this is not the forum for that discussion – but based on the reactions I’m seeing, such a discussion with you lot would amount to nothing more than ad hominem accusations of “hate,” condescending pedantry and armchair-psych claptrap.

          Aww, booboo.

        4. Natalie Reed

          “Men who don’t want to be men”?!?!?!?

          FUCK. YOU.

          1. Natalie Reed

            Yeah, and I know that isn’t a calm and respectful reply, but with talk about queer people being “disgusting” and then that kind of thing being justified by people who say equally offensive, immature and thoughtless comments, yeah… I’m not really feeling clam and respectful is what’s deserved here.

          2. Anders

            I thought it was a disappointingly mild response myself.

          3. Bradley

            I have always applauded the LGBT community for never dropping the BT and standing for rights and equality for all. So what the fuck, what the fuck? A good friend of mine is transgender and identifies mostly as a male. She does not feel like a woman and does not want to be one. For a famous example Chaz Bono felt the same and was willing to undergo surgery to make how he looked on the outside reflect how he felt on the inside, and he is much happier for it. They exist, I accept them and will fight for their happiness.

          4. Natalie Reed

            “I have always applauded the LGBT community for never dropping the BT and standing for rights and equality for all”

            Then you’re applauding them for something that often isn’t the case.

            Btw, it’s not about “looking” a certain way.

          5. Mary2

            Actually, there is quite a lot of discrimination against transpeople within the LGBT community. Ask a transwoman who has sex with women whether she is allowed to join the local lesbian group. Thankfully things are changing but all too often the answer has been ‘no’.

    2. 3.2
      Jdog

      Okay, you feel that “many” (actually a vocal minority, just like every other group) feminists express a preference for partners who do not meet what you think are common standards of attractiveness. So what? Why do you feel your personal insecurities and your post have anything to do with the actual topic at hand (transgender theists opposed to atheism)?

      1. heisenbug

        I know it is off-topic and I have no intention to start a discussion about feminism here. Though, I do find it funny that some people imediately jump to the assumption that if I am an anti-feminist, I must be somehow insecure. The same way theists claim that I am angry at God and that is the reason I am an atheist. Personnaly, I just felt obliged to clarify the position of anti-feminists and that is all.

        1. Natalie Reed

          Sorry, but your clarification, your talk about “feminists” “bitching” about “no good men out there” (I have NEVER, EVER seen a major feminist thinker devote any time to that issue), your casually offensive remark about how disgusting all us trans and gay people are, etc. …they read as insecure, and very problematic, and I think all you managed to clarify is that you have some deep-running prejudices and viscerally negative emotional reactions, including insecurity, to things related to gender and sex that very much deserve to be questioned and thought about.

        2. Rey Fox

          All you’ve clarified is that you like to derail comment threads with your personal hangups and bullshit generalizations. You’re not that special, and your concern for the supposed dating struggles of feminists is misplaced, and condescending.

          1. heisenvbug

            Well, I am sorry for having caused all that ruckus. I honestly had no ill intentions. Though, I should have known better that people might take my post as some trolling and I only talked about feminism because it was mentioned in the original post. I would be glad to discuss feminism, but it is clearly not the place to do so.

            As for transpeople, homosexual and such… I do not hate them. I am a little uncormfotable with it, but it is no big deal for me, no bigger than a difference of taste. That is what I meant with my analogy. I understand that it is a very touchy issue and that people who do not fit into traditional society are always on the edge, but I really do not see any reason to get upset about my comment. I am sure you could find a couple of things that are disgusting in me or in any person and that would not make me or anyone else less valuable as a human being. For example, I have a foot fetish and many could consider this strange or disgusting. However, that is clearly not a reason to try to change me or good grounds to break off any relationship with me. Having a couple of unpleasant features or habits does not make the person itself disgusting.

            As for religion… Its problem would be – stagnation. It cannot adapt itself quickly enough to the needs of a changing social structure. It is always lagging behind progress. Any religion in the long run does more harm than good.

            Though, I do have some reservation about Buddhism, since meditation does seem to be effective. Unfortunately, Buddhism is not interested in explaining the mechanism of its techniques and is more a phylosophy of action instead of reason. “Just do it and you will be happy” and, unlike other religions, it does seem to provide that. Of course, like any other teaching it can be distorted and used to do evil. However, the same can be said about any idea.

          2. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

            I honestly had no ill intentions.

            Intent: It’s fucking magic!

            Though, I should have known better that people might take my post as some trolling

            Oh, so you knew when you started to write your initial comment that you were being an asshole.

            As for transpeople, homosexual and such… I do not hate them. I am a little uncormfotable with it, but it is no big deal for me, no bigger than a difference of taste.

            Nobody here gives a shit about your “taste” or your comfort levels. They are worse than irrelevant; they focus the discussion on you.

            but I really do not see any reason to get upset about my comment.

            Of course you don’t! These prejudices don’t affect YOU, do they? And that’s all that really matters, right?

            I am sure you could find a couple of things that are disgusting in me…

            I already have.

            However, that is clearly not a reason to try to change me or good grounds to break off any relationship with me.

            Fetishes that don’t harm other people != discomfort with marginalized people that, when voiced, helps keep them marginalized.

    3. 3.3
      Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

      I won’t bother with a well-thought-out and -argued response, as others have already done so before me, but I wanted to let you know that you’re a massive, purulating, malodorous cyst on the ass of humanity.

      Have a pleasant evening.

      1. Martin Wagner

        (Googles “purulating.” Smiles. Adds to insult lexicon.)

      2. heisenbug

        Hmm… I messed somewhere and my response ended up deleted. Oh, well once again…

        I must say that had no ill attention whatsoever. Though, I should have known better that my post might have been interpreted as some kind of primitive trolling and I am sorry for that. I only talked about feminism because it was mentioned in the original post. But we all agree that this is not the place to talk about things like that.

        As for homosexuals and transpeople… It makes me very said that some place such a high importance on who you sleep with and what you wear (and that includes homosexuals and transpeople as well). To me – these are minor details (something like preferring one colour to another) that have little to do with actual human value. I do not care who you screw with and what your personal tastes are as long as you are decent loving and caring human being. Is being a transperson THAT important that it overweights being just human?

        If you look at any person, including myself, I am sure that you could find some habit or feature that you consider disgusting. There is no such thing as a perfect human being. However, in no way does it make a person less valuable. I bore no hatred towards homosexuals and transpeople, I never thought of them as disgusting people. Yes, I do find what they do disgusting, but I do not mind being friends with them or neighbors. And I do mind being friends and neighbors with disgusting people.

        I also completely agree with your views on religion. My only reservation would be about Buddhism. Unfortunately, Buddhism is not interested in explainig why this or that is needed or good. However, their meditation techniques do seem to work. Buddhism is not a philosophy of reason, it is a philosophy of action. What I like about it, it does meet your expectations by bringing peace and happiness to ones mind, without violence, unlike other religions. Of course, like any idea, it can be distorted and used to perform evil. But something like that can happen to any idea.

        1. paul

          “To me – these are minor details (something like preferring one colour to another) that have little to do with actual human value.”

          Society at large and bigots make them major details, to the point where gays (and especially transpeople) are barraged with hatred, violence, and discrimination. In an egalitarian utopia, you would be correct, nobody would care if you were gay/trans/female/black/etc, but this is the real world.

          1. heisenbug

            But isn t this only adding fuel to the fire? Theists claim that it is a big deal. And homosexuals and transpeople go along with it, claiming it is a fundemental part of their indentity and trolling all those people by organizing “pride parades”. But what it is to be proud of or ashamed of? Should I be proud of having blue eyes and being left-handed? Or should I receive a medal for not being a bigot? Does it sound stupid only to me?

            As long as people try to either demonize them or to praise them, instead of just accepting them, bigotry will exist.

        2. Natalie Reed

          Yes, it IS important asshole. Because people like you made it important, singling us out for hatred. You can’t pass the buck of taking some basic responsibility for your words and actions by saying “awww, well to me, everyone’s just human!”. It’s as loathsome as someone opposing affirmative action or black history month or international women’s day on the basis that they’re “color-blind” and “don’t see gender”. It makes you a liar. If you didn’t perceive differences, and they didn’t matter, you would not have gone and said we’re disgusting, would you? So not only are you a bigot, you’re a trivializing, patronizing, condescending, arrogant bigot. Thanks for clearing that up.

          1. Martin Wagner

            “…trolling all those people by organizing “pride parades”.

            Heisenbug, this is a wild stab in the dark, but I suspect that when gay people hold pride parades, they’re not about you.

        3. HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

          Your intention does not matter in the slightest. You showed up on a call for support for Natalie and went on about your disgust for her, and for a lot of others reading this, myself included, then threw in some vague “support” at the end. Mighty fuckin’ generous of you. Do you think we don’t know when cis, straight people have contempt for us? You aren’t exactly hiding it.

          YES, it is important that trans and LGBTQ identity is celebrated and acknowledged. You know why? Because we’re still getting killed for being those things. Your “I just see you as people” bullshit? Sure looks a whole lot like you’re saying “I’ll just pretend you’re cis and straight, okay?”

          But then, you’re also the kind of person who thinks equating gender and orientation to a fetish is an acceptable thing, and you totally know what it’s like. You don’t, asshole. And that’s not even getting started on your absolutely bullshit noncomprehension of feminism and feminists. Yes, you will get yelled at on the internet (oh, the horror!) for saying you don’t agree with the idea that women are human. DEAL.

        4. Steve Thoms

          “As for homosexuals and transpeople… It makes me very said that some place such a high importance on who you sleep with and what you wear (and that includes homosexuals and transpeople as well).”

          Holy hell. This is not what being either gay, or transgendered means. Learn more words.

          “Is being a transperson THAT important that it overweights being just human?”

          Holy hell(er). Did you year that transgendered people? This person thinks that your gender expression, and your defense when people call you “disgusting” makes you less human.

          No wonder people think atheists are smug shitbags with bigotry like this, and even *defended*. Just goes to show that although atheism is a humanist enterprise, being an atheist is not a card that grants special understanding or respect for humans.

          Heisenburg: Apologize, take it on the chin, and grow.

          1. Xanthë, Amy of my threads

            Things that I have learned from heisenbug in this thread:

            1) my sexuality isn’t about whom I want to love and partner and spend my life with, it’s about who I sleep with.

            2) my being transgender isn’t about fundamentally feeling at odds with who I am and who society views me as being, it’s about what clothes I wear.

            Steve, thank you for a very good post drawing attention to those points (?) amidst heisenbug’s vomit.

        5. Anat

          If society suddenly made one of your strong preferences, in any area of life, a reason to discriminate against you, deny you rights others have, exclude you, ignore or accept violence against you – that preference would suddenly become a major part of your identity, no matter how minor you think of it now.

          1. Anders

            Also, a key element in the struggle for LGBTA rights is visibility. If you can see queers they become less threatening. And whatever else you can accuse Pride parades of, discretion is not one of their faults…

        6. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

          Replied to your misplaced comment upthread.

        7. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

          But isn t this only adding fuel to the fire?…As long as people try to either demonize them or to praise them, instead of just accepting them, bigotry will exist.

          “But doesn’t talking about racism keep it alive?”

          But what it is to be proud of or ashamed of?

          Let me guess, you’re also one of those whiteys who says the same thing about “black pride,” aren’t you? Because you’ve never had other people tell you to be ashamed of your ethnicity.

          And, for fuck’s sake, stop using “homosexual” as a noun. The term you’re looking for is GLB (gay, lesbian, and bisexual).

    4. 3.4
      Ace of Sevens

      The evolution in our society and in nature did assign specific gender roles to us.

      Let’s pretend for a minute this is true. Why should I care what evolution thinks I should do? Isn’t that just the naturalistic fallacy. I didn’t evolve to argue with people on the Internet, but I enjoy it, so I do it anyway.

    5. 3.5
      Ringo

      As a homosexual transgender person, fuck you for saying I’m disgusting like a pickle. Why do people even wonder why LGBT teenagers kill themselves? Shit like this doesn’t make me, an adult, feel very good about myself. Even in the skeptic community I see this? I disgust people just for existing and trying to live my life? Thanks for that, asshole.

      As a transperson, what is it specifically that I do exactly that is disgusting, i would like to know. I can understand, perhaps, being disgusted with two people who are male identified sleeping together, though outside of a religious context of it being wrong I really don’t understand what is disgusting about that, so perhaps since you feel your opinion is so important you must spell it out with a comparason to pickles you could dig in there and show me what it’s all about. Tell me what’s so disgusting so maybe I can spare my family, friends, and coworkers the horrible parts of having to see me on a daily basis, and my disgusting trans-homosexuality. Like a disgusting pickle you wouldn’t mind having as your neighbor as you backpedal and reframe the “hate the sin, love the sinner” argument.

      As for my trans-gayness overriding my humanity? I wouldn’t want to be in the same phylum as someone who finds me so disgusting.

      1. heisenbug

        Is it that hard to comprehend that if the thought of Gay sex make me personally disgusted that does not mean that I find transpeople or gays disgusting? Do you really think your own sexual preferences are that important and that you have nothing else to be proud of? If that is so central to you, then sorry for not carrying. There is much more to a human being than who he sleeps with and what he wears to me and I pity you for not understanding such a simple thing.

        1. Ringo

          Fuck you for trying to erase my experience by trivializing it, you self-centred waste of time. I pity you for being such a jerk, and feeling that this blog so desperately needs your bigoted opinion.

        2. Natalie Reed

          And fuck you for trivializing our identities to being nothing more than “what we wear”.

          You totally and completely disgust me.

        3. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

          Is it that hard to comprehend that if the thought of Gay sex make me personally disgusted that does not mean that I find transpeople or gays disgusting?

          Is it that hard to comprehend that your expression of disgust here is deeply inappropriate, immaterial, and fuel to the fires of bigotry?

          Do you really think your own sexual preferences are that important…

          The words are orientation, which applies to gay vs. straight vs. bi, and identity, which applies to cis vs. trans. These are not “preferences.”

          and that you have nothing else to be proud of?

          Spoken once again like a privileged douchenozzle who doesn’t understand why someone who has been persecuted for who they are would want to emphasize these things.

          There is much more to a human being than who he sleeps with and what he wears to me

          Fuck you sideways with a telephone pole, you willful, patronizing ignoramus.

        4. Ace of Sevens

          Saying gay sex is gross is problematic, but not nearly as problematic as the “men who don’t want to be men” crack, which doesn’t just disparage Natalie, but denies her identity. It’s like when Christians insist that you believe in God and are just mad at him.

      2. heisenbug

        It is ironic that I am being bashed at for my sexual tastes by the same people, who are persecuted for their own sexual preferences 8)

        Still, a good experince since I understand a little better what minorities have to go through

        1. Ringo

          Bashed? That’s the wrong word to be appropriating. You can call yourself bashed when you’re scared to walk the streets holding hands with your significant other. This is what a fucking Pride Parade is for! We can’t have one day where we don’t have to worry about violence? Where we don’t have to hide ourselves lest we disgust someone?
          And you wonder why I’m not fucking proud to be human? Assholes like YOU!

        2. Xanthë, Amy of my threads

          Let’s be clear: you are not being criticised for your sexual tastes. You’re getting kick back because you continue to double down on “I find homosexuality and transgender disgusting” with a response of “well, it’s just my opinion”, as if that made it defensible and that airing your views doesn’t provide oxygen to other homophobic and transphobic bigots who share them. Or for example when you say, “I honestly had no ill intentions”; nonetheless, you’ve offended people, you’ve trivialised them, and then when it’s been pointed out to you, you’ve repeated different variations on the same theme of offensiveness as before, ad nauseam. At this point, the only honest conclusion most honest people reading this thread will make is that you’re a troll, and you would do better to shut the fuck up.

          1. Anders

            All we’re doing is calling a spade a spade. Thinking that LGBTA people are disgusting makes you a bigot. Therefore, we call you a bigot. It’s as simple as that.

    6. 3.6
      pentatomid

      The feminism bit is a little more complicated, though. The evolution in our society and in nature did assign specific gender roles to us. I believe that a person should be free to break from their assigned role, however, many feminists at the same time often complain that “there are no good men out there”. Usually people do not find masculated women attractive, the same way as efeminated men are not found attractive. To me, it is kinda hypocritical to ask for equality and at the same time bitch at men for changing as well.

      Oh, FFS, not one of these again… Take your straw feminist and fuck off.

      As for the rest of your comments. You know what I find disgusting? People like you!

    7. 3.7
      pyrobryan

      I think heisenbug lacked tact in his statement about finding homosexuality and transgender to be “disgusting”, but I think it came from a place of innocence. Perhaps to reword it, “Your sexual preference or gender identity affect my opinion of you as much as your taste in food.” I could be wrong but that’s how it came across to me.

      I’ve heard gay people talk about how disgusting the thought of straight sex is to them and I didn’t think anything of it. I understood that they weren’t saying that I was gross for enjoying straight sex, just that they don’t like the idea of doing it themselves.

      I won’t get in to his comments on feminism.

    8. 3.8
      Ould Mr Brennan

      Pickles ? What about Snails and Oysters …OMB.

  4. 4
    gwen

    I just don’t understand the vitriol feminism, and ‘other’-sexuality brings out in people I usually think of as reasonable. Why would ‘I’, care about two CONSENTING people sleeping together, or their sexual orientation, or fetishes? I also don’t understand why men are threatened by female equality. There is so much wrong with ‘Heisenbug’s’ description of feminism, I don’t know where to start, and doubt I can change his mind anyway. We (feminists) have a lot of work to do.

  5. 5
    Zengaze

    Holy shit! I don’t believe i read “men who don’t want to be men” on a freethought blog, by someone who i assume (maybe wrongly) percieves themselves to be a freethinker. You need to rethink your freethoughts. I’ll leave it there out of respect that this is a call to support Natalie (unless we get permission to thrash that bullshit out here).

    On topic: The Uncle Tom types have always bewildered me. The fact that some people feel the need to be accepted by a cult that despises their innate nature is astounding! They should be leading the vangaurd in the demolition of the supreme hetrosexual Dictator in the sky. Go get them Nat!

    1. 5.1
      Natalie Reed

      Yeah, I can’t speak for Russell, but for my part, you have my permission to tear into it. Honestly? I’m seeing WAY more offensive, disrespectful idiocy here than in the thread that this post is calling people to help me out with.

      1. Martin Wagner

        I interact with George quite frequently on a friendly basis, and so the “men who don’t want to be men” line was very disappointing to see, even though I already knew he has generally conservative views (as in Eisenhower conservative, not Bush conservative). I hope he’s able to learn a little about the transgendered experience by reading your blog, and rethink some of his assumptions.

        1. zengaze

          +1 Martin. Nat i feel for you i really do, because your cause is knocking on doors that have never been opened. But that is why you HAVE to fight the fight. Skeptics need to have a spotlight put on prejudices they haven’t recognised in themselves.

          I too to my shame was ignorant and irrational on this issue, spouting faux masculinity before i educated myself.

        2. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

          even though I already knew he has generally conservative views (as in Eisenhower conservative, not Bush conservative).

          I know what you’re trying to say, but all I can think is that his ideas on gender haven’t evolved beyond the 1950s. One doesn’t have to be a rabid right-winger to have really bass-ackwards ideas about gender.

    2. 5.2
      Dalillama

      Seriously, what the entire fuck? I had to read that sentence over three or four times before my brain processed it. I may try to form a coherent response to that shit later, but right now I have trouble writing a proper sentence. I was getting ready for a thread’s worth of heisen’s assholery, but then george took it up to a whole new level.

      1. heisenbug

        And just to be fair. I think that George meant by his comment smth like: “Men, who do not want to conform themselves to the traditional steryotypes of our society”. I am sure he meant no disrespect, he just was clumsy in his use of words.

        1. Anders

          She’ll be waiting for him at Castello di Canossa. Better bring winter clothes.

        2. Dalillama

          You’re not helping your case or his there, mate.

        3. Natalie Reed

          Men who don’t want to…”

          GOOD LAWD you are dense, aren’t you? You know that whooshing sound you just heard? That was the entire point apparently going over your head.

          I’ll spell it out for you:

          TRANS WOMEN AREN’T MEN.

          1. Anders

            And their karyotype is completely irrelevant to this. It is the wrong tool for determining sex in almost any situation. The only situation where I can imagine karyotype would be even remotely interesting is when scanning for sex-chromosome linked diseases. And even then it’s probably more accurate to talk about “XY women” (which would be a larger group than only trans women).

            I’m just preemptively dismantling a common argument.

        4. WithinThisMind

          —“Men, who do not want to conform themselves to the traditional steryotypes of our society”—-

          Look, I get how this is an awkward concept. It’s one I don’t fully understand. I don’t really understand what the terms ‘man’ and ‘woman’ mean to the point someone can say ‘I was born as one but feel I am really the other’. I don’t get where that line is.

          But I also don’t ‘get’ phobias. I don’t get how the sight of my friendly little pet rat can send my friend into a gibbering state of terror. But she tells me ‘I am afraid’, and so I take her at her word.

          A person tells you, ‘I am a woman’. That person is a woman. It doesn’t really matter what they ‘look’ like. She has said, ‘I am a woman’, therefore, she is a woman. If she chooses to adjust her appearance to match, that is her right. If she doesn’t, it may make some things more awkward, but if she still says with conviction, ‘I am woman’, then she is still a woman. She is not a man who wants to be something else, because she is not a man.

  6. 6
    Secular Thinker

    Religion is inherently dangerous to every single person, not just one group. It’s a problem for the women it belittles and demeans, the children it teaches require indoctrination and physical discipline, the men whose critical thinking and rational minds it crumbles. And then there are all the specific groups who are targeted in various holy books.

  7. 7
    Anders

    Sadly, I’m not surprised by the attitude of some posters here. I’ve seen it in other places where supposedly rational people gather. Some people need to learn that just because you have an attitude that doesn’t mean you have to blabber about it to all and sundry.

    As for the “men who don’t want to be men” comment… it’s usually good to learn the basics of a topic before you make a fool of yourself (I know this from personal experience. :) ) There is a saying that God* gave us one mouth and two ears for a reason. Unfortunately, many people come on the Internet and discover that they have ten fingers.

    *and yes this is metaphorical.

  8. 8
    Cassie

    What about these “I find jews disgusting” “I find black people disgusting”. Do you really not see how it is different to saying you don’t like pickles?

    Trans people, gay people, black people, female people, jewish people, etc, are forced to see these as important parts of their personhood. Society at large sees these aspects as important, why else rule against same sex marriage again and again and again? Seems silly to do so if it isn’t important.

    Also why do you get to decide what an individual considers to be important about themselves? Why do you assert that this indicates that they don’t view their humanity as important? Ignorance is the answer to every question I have asked imo.

    Bigotry exists, you perpetuate it. YOU disgust me heisenbug.

  9. 9
    Cassie

    “and trolling all those people by organizing “pride parades”. But what it is to be proud of or ashamed of?”

    Nothing to be ashamed of, but they are proud of the fact that society with the help of the real trolls like you haven’t forced them back into the closet. I am proud too, takes alot to be yourself when part of yourself is shunned by society.

    Have you noticed the lack of pickle eating pride parades? That is because there is no bigotry towards pickle eaters.

  10. 10
    Cassie

    Sorry to spam, but I think this is a law that heisenbug should be made aware of, it may illuminate why people view their sexuality as important. Sometimes, it is a defence to murder.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

  11. 11
    heisenbug

    Great… We have a case of reading problem it seems… Are you able to see the difference between “I find homosexuals disgusting” and “I find homosexuality disgusting”? What is reason I am not a homosexual? Because I find it highly unpleasent and repulsive and I am turned off by men. If I did not, then I would be gay or bisexual. And yes I am pro gay marriage and for equal rights. And society can go fuck itself on that issue if it cannot offer some valid reason to oppose it. I have no problem considering gays or transexuals as normal people. But you do, claiming they are “special”.

    And I have no intention to decide for a person what is important to them or not. However, it seems incredibly silly to me to consider one s sexual preference as central to indentity. It is like saying that your hair colour is central to your identity. Do try to provide a valid reason for that and I will rethink my position.

    Left-handed people, blacks, Jews and who knows how many minorities used to be oppressed or are still oppressed. Should we also have some “pride parades” for them? What is so special about sexual minorities?

    The Gay panic defense is also an idiocy (and it is not a law). Should I stab an unatrractive to me person who tries to flirt with me? Or I you trying to combat stupidity with sheer stupidity?

    1. 11.1
      Anat

      If a certain hair color were grounds for discrimination that would become central to the identity of those with that hair color. We actually know of a similar situation wrt race.

    2. 11.2
      Anders

      Strange, I’m not homo- or bi-sexual and I don’t find gay sex particularly disgusting. I don’t find it at all erotic, but that’s another matter entirely.

      Do I even exist in your world?

    3. 11.3
      Josh Slocum

      Go FUCK YOURSELF. You are what’s repulsive. STOP telling the world how we make you sick. You’re helping foment an atmosphere that gets us beaten, killed and deprived of our civil rights.

      STOP IT.

      1. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

        You’re helping foment an atmosphere that gets us beaten, killed and deprived of our civil rights.

        This.

    4. 11.4
      edmundog

      “What is reason I am not a homosexual? Because I find it highly unpleasent and repulsive and I am turned off by men. ”

      Hmm. Hmm. Interesting. The reason I am not a homosexual is that I am a heterosexual. I don’t find men repulsive, merely uninteresting.

    5. 11.5
      SallyStrange

      Hey, I HAVE tried having sex with people of the same gender (women, in my case). I didn’t find it disgusting at all. It was fun, even. Sexual pleasure tends to be that. And yet I still identify as straight, because although sex with women is fine, I still like sex with men better. And I can’t imagine forming a long-term romantic partnership with another woman.

      So your stuff about disgust being the reason you’re not gay? Is bullshit. Your disgust doesn’t indicate you’re straight, it indicates you’ve got strong feelings and unresolved issues about gayness. You should probably seek a therapist rather than talking about it on a blog devoted to equal rights for trans, bi, and gay folks.

      1. dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

        Hey, me too! If only we could mandate a bicurious phase for everyone maybe we could finally end this nonsense.

  12. 12
    Cassie

    “Are you able to see the difference between “I find homosexuals disgusting” and “I find homosexuality disgusting”?”

    Yes, indicate where I conflated the two.

    “What is reason I am not a homosexual? Because I find it highly unpleasent and repulsive and I am turned off by men.”

    That is different again, that is you being turned off by the thought of you having gay sex not someone else having gay sex. So which is it? I suspect both.

    “But you do, claiming they are “special”.”

    I claimed they were oppressed which you appear to agree with. Please indicate where I claimed they were special.

    “However, it seems incredibly silly to me to consider one s sexual preference as central to indentity. It is like saying that your hair colour is central to your identity. Do try to provide a valid reason for that and I will rethink my position.”

    I already have, you ignored it. Feel free to scroll up.

    “Left-handed people, blacks, Jews and who knows how many minorities used to be oppressed or are still oppressed. Should we also have some “pride parades” for them? What is so special about sexual minorities?”

    There are special days or whatever for black people and jewish people. If they want a parade as well I wouldn’t mind at all, why would I?

    “The Gay panic defense is also an idiocy (and it is not a law).”

    It is a legal defence which has been utilised in the past and quite possibly the future also.

    You ask why is who someone goes to bed with so important? I ask the same of society.

  13. 13
    Cassie

    “Should I stab an unatrractive to me person who tries to flirt with me? Or I you trying to combat stupidity with sheer stupidity?”

    I also think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I was pointing out that if I like to go to bed with women it can be a defence if someone should murder me. I never stated anyone should stab anyone at anytime. So the above sentence doesn’t make any sense to me.

  14. 14
    heisenbug

    “Yes, indicate where I conflated the two.”

    And to me it is a minor detail. I also consider circumcision as barbaric, but I do not think that Jews and Muslims are barbaric. That is simply a false generalization.

    “So which is it? I suspect both.”

    Yes I find it unpleasent the same way I find pickles unpleasent. So what? You think I am going to storm into a restaurant and throw away all the dreaded pickles or push a law to ban the consumption of pickles under the penalty of capital punishment? Or should I just shut up and be afraid to voice my personal preferences?

    “I claimed they were oppressed which you appear to agree with. Please indicate where I claimed they were special.”

    To be accurate, you claimed that they need special treatment. I consider “pride parades” even if they are fun as special treatement. As long as those parade will go on, the bigotry will persists. You have nothing to be proud or be ashamed of when you are simply yourself. At least change the name and all the implication.

    “I already have, you ignored it. Feel free to scroll up.”

    So if some idiots in a society consider your sexuality important you should go along with them? That does not sound as anything valid to me. You are only making a bigger problem by accepting their rules. Not to long ago, it was considered important by the society to discriminate against black people. According to your logic, black people should have accepted racism and claimed superiority of the Afroamerican race.

    “There are special days or whatever for black people and jewish people. If they want a parade as well I wouldn’t mind at all, why would I?”

    The question would be, why would someone want a parade in the first place to underscore the bigotry and the pain?

    “I also think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I was pointing out that if I like to go to bed with women it can be a defence if someone should murder me”

    So what? It is not like it is the only stupid line of defence adopted by people. Remeber God/Devil/my dog made me do it?

  15. 15
    Cassie

    Can you re-read my previous comment, as you did not answer any of my questions. You answered questioned I never asked. I thought I was being quite clear, I quoted you then gave you my response to that quote. To make sure I am being absolutely clear here is an example…

    You stated, ““Are you able to see the difference between “I find homosexuals disgusting” and “I find homosexuality disgusting”?”

    In response I asked ““Yes, indicate where I conflated the two.”

    Then, instead of indicating where I conflated the two you started talking about jewish people and circimcision which has no relevance on that particular train of thought. This continued with all of your responses to me, where none of them had any apparent bearing on what we were previously discussing and what you previously claimed.

    Please review and respond in a sensical manner.

  16. 16
    Cassie

    “So what? It is not like it is the only stupid line of defence adopted by people. Remeber God/Devil/my dog made me do it?”

    Actually I am done. Anyone who can say “so what” to the fact a law exists where queer people are viewed as less than human is obviously a troll or a bigot. I have no time for either. You have failed to present an argument. I will leave the other godless brethren to mock you. They seem to have been enjoying it so far.

    1. 16.1
      heisenbug

      That is NOT a law. It is just a stupid line of defense

  17. 17
    heisenbug

    “In response I asked ““Yes, indicate where I conflated the two.”

    Then I am confused. What are you accusing me and why do you consider me disgusting? I thought you just made the mistake that since I find gay sex disgusting, I must find gay people disgusting.

    I see nothing wrong with having dislikes towards certain forms of neutral behavior. Do I deserve to be blamed for being disgusted at same gender sex? It is not like I spend all the time thinking about it or that upon seeing a gay person I immediately think about gay sex.

    I explained to you that equating one s sexual preferences to your core personality is ridiculous. And I also told you that conforming yourself to idiotic standards is wrong. The fact that society is being preoccupied with it, is not a good reason to be preoccupied with it yourself.

  18. 18
    Natalie Reed

    Thank you, Heisenburg, for demonstrating how much more loathsome and horrible and intolerant homophobic, transphobic and sexist atheists are than queer theists.

    I think I need to reappraise my priorities.

    1. 18.1
      heisenbug

      The only reason why I mentioned my personnal sentiments about gay sex and such was to show I could understand why theists can have those sorts of feelings. And still that is not a good reason to discriminate against fellow humans. I do think it is a pity you consider me an enemy, but feel free to hate me as much as you want if that makes life any easier for you. I guess that there is no point in discussing this anymore. Best wishes.

      1. zengaze

        Looks like this has moved on a bit since i last viewed (day at the beach with my daughter :) ). But then again it looks like it hasn’t moved on at all.

        Heinsburg. You have stated that homosexuality disguts you rather than homosexuals, this is very much a “hate the sin not the sinner” line. Which is a sop to justify continued bigotry. In the instance of Homosexuality the sin is the sinner! And i would argue that being revolted at the thought of homosexual acts is a conditioning that you haven’t broken from. Their is absolutely NO rational or logical reason to be revolted by homosexuality.

        Second to this: I assume you would not be revolted at the sight of a hetrosexual couple kissing in a bar beside you, but would be revolted by two guys doing the same? What if it was two girls? Would the revulsion be equal, or would you be thinking other thoughts? Funny how conditioning works isn’t it.

        Thirdly to THAT!: Your revulsion provides an umbrella to those with an anti-gay agenda, who do want to limit persons’ rights based on their sexuality. Therefore you have a responsibility to address your own conditioning.

        Fourth and finally: I don’t agree that polar hetro/homo exists. Any studies i have read on the matter suggest sexuality exists on a spectrum between the two polars, with individuals shifting along it through their life journey. Yeah this may mean that your whole life you are attracted to females, but it could equally mean to your revulsion that you could be checking out that guy at the bar in ten years lol.

        Look get over your hangups and celebrate the diversity of humanity in all it’s glory,

      2. Ringo

        Show off more of your privilege, please! Go ahead and walk away from this without learning a thing. We’ll be around to show everyone else like you that we won’t sit here and let you get away with this kind of shit without standing up for ourselves. We get to deal with people like you every day, we can’t just walk away.

        Stick your fingers further in your ears, you might reach your brain that way.

    2. 18.2
      Ringo

      Natalie, for the record, you’re an island of sanity in a sea of crazy. I’ll follow you anywhere.

    3. 18.3
      zengaze

      One final response i want to add to this is that there is a conflation between homosexuality and gender identity, the two are not the same, though i do accept there are cross over issues.

      This is where that absolutely stupid comment about “men not wanting to be men comes in”. When is a man a man? I would love to hear your views on this George, then we can get into a cock fight and i can prove that you are actually a female.

    4. 18.4
      Anders

      Please, Natalie, I beg you. Note that in this thread it’s pretty much heisenbug against the world. Don’t let a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel.

      Unless of course you mean intensifying the fight against homo- and transphobia among skeptics and atheists. In which case I think it’s an excellent idea.

      1. zengaze

        I disagree Anders on the point that it’s a few bad apples. I’m continually amazed at the horse shit stupidity that comes out of a lot of atheists mouths with regards to issues of sexuality and Feminism. The exact same failure to apply reason and logic that the same people trounce theists for.

        Stop being Atheists start being people of the enlightenment.

        1. Anders

          Sadly, you may be right. Actually I think most skeptics just don’t give a damn.

          And I second the sentiment about the Enlightenment.

  19. 19
    terrycollins

    Perhaps “repulsed” (as in the opposite of attracted) would have been a better description than “disgusted”? heisenbug supports a person’s right to sexual freedom, but for expressing his own sexual views he gets several FUs. The pickle analogy was perfect, but the Jewish analogy is flawed. I can be disgusted by the actions taken by Jewish people in the Middle East, without being disgusted by a Jewish person. I mean wtf?? I’m straight, but there are several heterosexual acts I find disgusting, but to each their own. So what?

    You guys/gals really need to chill or risk alienating those who wish you no harm.

    1. 19.1
      Natalie Reed

      The problem with things like openly calling gay and trans people disgusting, then defending that position and doubling down, acting like WE’RE the bigots for “making such a big deal out of it”, supporting evo psych idiocy, describing trans women as “men who…” etc. is not simply “sexual views” or “sexual preferences”. Either be able to listen to the points being raised, or be quiet. Just because you don’t understand our anger doesn’t mean it’s unjustified.

      And really, I don’t give a damn if I alienate Heisenburg. With friends like these…

    2. 19.2
      Dalillama

      Broadly speaking, this falls into the same category as the problem of faith, elaborated by Greta Christina and several others. In the same way that religious moderates enable religious fundamentalists and religion based problems, statements like heisenbugs and georges enable bigotry by normalizing dehumanizing and incorrect stereotypes of trans* and homosexual people. This kind of thing even serves to further normalize and provide ammunition for the religious bigots as well as poisoning the discourse in the skeptical/freethought/atheist community.

      1. Xanthë, Amy of my threads

        Dalillama, I’d go a little further: it is manifest that “statements like heisenbugs and georges enable bigotry by normalizing dehumanizing and incorrect stereotypes of trans* and homosexual people”, because half the claims they make aren’t even fucking right. According to one of these assholish jerkkes, trans women are “men who don’t want to be men” and “playing hide the sausage”; or, transgender is about wearing clothes and is somehow “disgusting” (how this happens to be so is never actually defined); or, homosexuality means gay sex means penis in anus means icky means “disgusting”. I suppose it’s too much to ask for these acephalicke asse holes to make up their non-existent minds so that their bullshitte agrees with one another. How fucking ignorant and uninformed would they have to be to shoot their mouth off like that about things they obviously don’t understand, having demonstrated fractal wrongnesse whenever they’ve said something?

        And yes to your final point, way for atheist bigots to show they’ve got the same anti-gay, anti-trans prejudices as religious bigots! Win–win!

    3. 19.3
      Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

      You guys/gals really need to chill or risk alienating those who wish you no harm.

      No, asshole, YOU need to stop telling people who are being stepped on that they need to politely ask the steppers to get their boots off the steppees’ necks.

      And, again, intent doesn’t mean shit. Heisenbug, as Josh said upthread, is contributing to an atmosphere that makes it okay to assault GLBT people and strip them of their rights.

  20. 20
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    Terry, it’s incredibly condescending and privileged of you to tell us we should just chill out and relax when someone utters “I find homosexuality and transgender disgusting” as virtually the first thing that comes out of their fundament, and then goes on to trivialise homophobic and transphobic bigotry by making an asinine comparison to pickles. If you want to make that into a dismissive “So what?”, then I have a big “Fuck off” which I’m more than happy to personally deliver to you.

    1. 20.1
      terrycollins

      We obviously have a difference of opinion on what was meant by his words. I did not reach the same negative conclusions.

      1. Xanthë, Amy of my threads

        :roll:
        That’s a nice handy blind spot you’ve got there to ignore heisenbug’s patently offensive and uninformed remarks and not recognise it as the homophobic and transphobic bigotry that it plainly is. Thanks for your part in helping to throw another minority or two under the bus, Terry. And here’s your personal “Fuck off” from me: I hope me being one of those “disgusting homosexual transgender people” hasn’t tarnished it for you.

      2. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

        Oh, let me guess: Another straight cis dude. Which makes you the expert on whether Heisenbug’s comments were offensive or not, because you’re “objective” and “detached.” /spit

  21. 21
    tosspotovich

    @heisenbug and like-minded people: if you support the rights of a group but find

  22. 22
    tosspotovich

    @heisenbug and like-minded people: if you support the rights of a group but find the acts of said group “personally disgusting” then why air these feelings publicly? If you truly do support them your comments only serve to undermine your own position.

    1. 22.1
      Xanthë, Amy of my threads

      Yeah, it’s quite bizarre to think giving offense for no reason at all and then doubling down on it instead of retracting it, is somehow polite or helpful. It’s. Simply. Not. As a contrary case, one thing that terrycollins said above was that “I’m straight, but there are several heterosexual acts I find disgusting, but to each their own”.

      Like, wow, Terry totally deserves a cookie for not gratuitously insulting people for no reason, instead of blurting out the first bigoted or offensive things he thought of! That’s a really high bar for informed discourse he’s insisting on there. </sarcasm>

      Also noteworthy: heisenbug mentioned having a “foot fetish”, yet no one has reacted in revulsion that such a thing is disgusting or obscene, and no one has suggested that heisenbug is a pervert because of it. In fact, if it’s safe, sane, and consensual, then I’ll say it doesn’t concern me in the slightest, and I hope it makes heisenbug happy: go to it! That’s what non-bigotry is supposed to sound like.

    2. 22.2
      terrycollins

      So people should only be free to talk about sexual attractions in public, but discussion of sexual repulsions must be made in private? Seems pretty double standard to me. Perhaps what was stated originally could have been written more diplomatically, but I totally got what he meant. The kind of comments written in response do not give one ambition to help “fight the good fight”, rather they serve as a warning to just stay the hell out of it.

      1. Xanthë, Amy of my threads

        For fuck’s sake. Exactly which bit of “I find homosexuality and transgender disgusting” do you think heisenbug could have phrased more diplomatically to avoid “insulting word choices”? Do explain Rush, I’m sorry, Terry. :roll:

      2. Sas

        If someone lacks the ability to express their support without making the people they’re supporting feel insulted and attacked, then perhaps “just stay the hell out of it” is the best contribution that person can give.

      3. Anders

        There’s such a thing as normal polite discourse. It’s not polite to tell people you find them disgusting. It shows a remarkable lack of empathy when you’re surprised that they find this insulting. I find it difficult to believe that anything could salvage this trainwreck, but a sincere apology and a “I will work on my attitude” would perhaps be a good start. Obviously I can’t speak for the people who were insulted, but I don’t think anyone expects a person to go from full-bigot mode to exemplary ally overnight, but just showing you’re willing to make the effort… think about it.

        1. terrycollins

          heisenbug clarified several times that it was the acts NOT THE PERSON engaging in said acts he found disgusting. If someone came to me and said they find heterosexual sex disgusting, I would not be offended or take it personally, nor would I have reason to. Why should it be any different for homosexuals or others?

          Be outraged and throw out the insults and vulgarity if you want, but it does not help your cause.

          1. terrycollins

            Sorry, last comment not meant to be directed at Anders, but the haters.

          2. LykeX

            If someone came to me and said they find heterosexual sex disgusting, I would not be offended or take it personally, nor would I have reason to.

            Have you ever been beaten up by a total stranger because he disliked you being straight?
            In your country, do politicians routinely discuss whether heterosexuals should be denied basic human rights?
            Are there places in the world you can’t travel to because they execute heterosexuals there?

            Then maybe you ought to just shut the fuck up.

  23. 23
    Cassie

    As matt says on the show, you can think what you want and say what you want, but don’t expect not to be ridiculed for it.

    Not liking pickles is not the same as not liking homosexual sex.

    I don’t know why you would be worried about a penis in your bum cos your head is pretty far up there anyway!

  24. 24
    heisenbug

    Ok… A few last words before I am butchered to infinitely small pieces… Am I repulsed by some things the gay and transgender community do? Yes, I am. Is it rational? No, it is not, but I cannot help feeling the way I do and I have no intentions to shut up about my feelings just because some morons are uncomfortable with that. Could I end up being gay or transgender myself at some point of my life? I find it very unlikely, but not impossible. And no, I do not stare with revulsion or envy at gay couples and nor I do my best to ignore an elephant in the room. Again, to me it is an important thing for an individual, but a minor point for humanity and certainly not the most important thing for a single human being. And I also think that by just going along with homophobes, who place such a huge importance on someone s else sexuality, people only make the problem worse.

    1. 24.1
      Anders

      You can change your attitudes. They are not hardwired into you. Try to learn more about LGBTA people. Try to learn to see them as fellow humans, not as weirdoes from another planet.

      Two years ago I might have used the pickle analogy myself, although I think I used brussel sprouts instead. But I learned. I did not dig in my heels and say “I’m like this and I can never change.” Just try, ok?

      1. heisenbug

        That is the problem. I just do not understand what is wrong with my attitude towards them, why should I change if I am comfortable with myself and I am harming no one? I care about my own sexuality, but I do not care about the sexuality of others. I have never percieved LGBTA people as not human beings. Yes, I find their preferences odd and sometimes even disgusting. But why is it a big deal? Some may claim that my own disgust can turn into hatred and violence, but that would asinine. The possibility of me turning violent against consumers of pickles is just as likely as my turning violent against LGBTA people. So what is wrong with me?

        1. Michael Halila

          “I care about my own sexuality, but I do not care about the sexuality of others.”

          Yes you do. If you really didn’t care, you wouldn’t need to insult others by spouting off about how disgusting you find their sexuality.

          “But why is it a big deal?”

          You can’t figure out why it’s a big deal that a community is asked to support one of its members, and your response is to say that you find them disgusting and slander them?

        2. Xanthë, Amy of my threads

          Well, this might be a stab in the dark, but the negative responses to your bullshitte might have something to do with you being an ignorant bigot, and judging by your continued responses on this thread, you’re probably never going to improve, let alone understand the concept that many others here have tried to explain to you, which is that your supposed tolerance is merely just a mask for intolerance.

    2. 24.2
      Rasmus

      Claiming to not be in control of one’s feelings is one of the most common, if not the most common, ways of avoiding confronting a conflict in a constructive way.

      The fact is that you’re the only one who can take responsibility for your feelings. If you don’t, there’s no point in trying to have a constructive and civil conversation with you.

      And LGBTQ people are just doing what straight/cis people have been doing for ages. Western society could be described as a never-ending low-intensive straight/cis pride festival, with straight couples having various forms of foreplay on sidewalks and escalators, girlfriends jerking off boyfriends on coaches, giving blowjobs on planes, or just plain doing it in train compartments that can’t be locked…

      We could discuss manners. I mean, I think it might be nice if people tried to not ejaculate in cramped public spaces. I don’t know. But let’s not pretend that LGBTQ people are somehow worse.

    3. 24.3
      Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

      before I am butchered to infinitely small pieces

      I’d really, really love to see you restate that metaphor in front of the loved ones of GLBT people who have actually been murdered brutally.

      You’re a selfish, solipsistic piece of shit.

    4. 24.4
      carlie

      Again, to me it is an important thing for an individual, but a minor point for humanity and certainly not the most important thing for a single human being.

      It tends to become the most important thing for a single human being when so many people are willing to kill them for that single thing.

  25. 25
    Michael Halila

    Heisenbug: stop telling other people what’s important to them. Also, can you at least *try* to check your privilege for a minute? You’re suggesting that an oppressed, bullied minority should shut up and hide? Isn’t this exactly the same course of action that Christian Conservatives suggest to bullied LGBT teens? “Geez, stop being so gay and they won’t pick on you.” That’s disgusting.

    Also, do you seriously not see that you’re claiming a right to exhibit your opinions publicly (“gay and trans people are disgusting”), and suggesting that the people you find disgusting should shut up about their identity, not to mention calling them morons for being offended? You’re being some kind of Internet avatar of bigotry.

  26. 26
    heisenbug

    I just voiced my what personal distastes are, that is it. Why did I do it? I just wanted to show that I understood the feelings of those crazy conservatives, but I still dissaproved their actions. I never said “Geez, stop being so gay and they won’t pick on you.” What I said – you are in no way special, you are just normal and deserve equal rights with everyone else. Just be yourself.

    I am also getting extremely tired of repeating myself… I do not consider LGBT people themselves disgusting. Yes, I find some acts they do disgusting the same way I find some things that heterosexuals couples do disgusting. I also have no intentions to tell people what things they should value. However, if they decide to value something stupid, do not get suprised that I am are going to ridicule them for it.

    And I still do not understand why I should change something in me, which I am comfortable with and which does not harm anyone.

    1. 26.1
      Anders

      But it obviously does harm people. Don’t you think there are queers who have read this thread, read your opinions and been brought to tears? Found their beliefs that the whole world is out to get them validated? Been made to feel like freaks of nature?

      Has it not occurred to you that if you can’t tell someone you support them without spitting in their face at the same time, maybe the smart thing is to shut up? I don’t think you’re a stupid person – why is this so hard to understand?

      Read the responses from LGBTA people. What I get from them is a statement of strength, a statement saying “We may be persecuted, but we’re not so short on allies that we have to take every bigot who says he supports us.” If your help is conditioned on spewing garbage – and insulting garbage at that – then it’s not wanted.

      That is what I get from this thread, and if I have misinterpreted the thoughts of the queers* in the thread they can correct me. And I will try to change my mind. Amazing, isn’t it?

      *still feel a twinge of unease at writing this word…

    2. 26.2
      Megan

      However, if they decide to value something stupid, do not get suprised that I am are going to ridicule them for it.

      So why are you getting your knickers in such a twist? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, after all. You flounced into this thread to say something stupid and offensive, and people are ridiculing you for it. Take the hint and stop being stupid.

      1. heisenbug

        People may get offended by the most innocent comments. I consider LGBTA people as equal to me, so I will not pamper them and I will honestly tell them they are being stupid about that or that in my opinion. I consider my personal feelings about homosexuality a trivial thing and no reasonable ground whatsoever to be upset. Why should you care what my intimate likes and dislikes are in the first place? If you do not care, then why such a ruckus? Or I should just “change” myself or even hide myself in a corner because my sole feelings make someone uncomfortable? My irony meter has fried out long ago.

        If someone were to prove me wrong, I would sincerely apologize. But so far I have been only insulted or posters would try to invoke the need for special treatment for LGBTA people since they are discriminated against. I find special treatment just as offensive as discrimination.

        1. Rasmus

          Why should you care what my intimate likes and dislikes are in the first place?

          You’re asking us? You’re the one who jumped in here and started word-pooping. You should know (I’m not one bit surprised that you don’t).

          The way the world works is that you convince us why we should care about your opinions. We’re not your parents. We don’t automatically give a fuck about you, or your opinions, or your attempts at pretending to be a decent person.

        2. Anri

          People may get offended by the most innocent comments.

          Protip: saying ‘what you people do is disgusting’ isn’t innocent.
          Please stop trying to portray it as such.

          I consider LGBTA people as equal to me, so I will not pamper them and I will honestly tell them they are being stupid about that or that in my opinion.

          And as soon as you live in a world in which LGBTA people are considered equal by the general populace, that attitude will be justified.
          You don’t currently.
          Oh, and BTW, if you ever do, it will be the people you’re arguing with right now that will make sure it gets there.

          I consider my personal feelings about homosexuality a trivial thing and no reasonable ground whatsoever to be upset. Why should you care what my intimate likes and dislikes are in the first place? If you do not care, then why such a ruckus? Or I should just “change” myself or even hide myself in a corner because my sole feelings make someone uncomfortable? My irony meter has fried out long ago.

          Trivial enough that you included them in the first sentence of your first post in this thread, and then have defended the statement in every subsequent post?
          Your irony meter broke because it was in your back pocket, not because you brought it to this thread.

          If someone were to prove me wrong, I would sincerely apologize. But so far I have been only insulted or posters would try to invoke the need for special treatment for LGBTA people since they are discriminated against. I find special treatment just as offensive as discrimination.

          Well, since you’ve spoken on the matter, I guess we’re all just wrong.
          Now, if only there was some way to get a group of intelligent, literate LGBTA people together and somehow make it possible for them all to give their opinions on what might work in society for them – presumably, that would have a lot more relevance to the issue than your opinion, right?

          Perhaps, if such a group were to be formed, the biggest problem it would face would be the cisgendered blundering in, offering their opinion, and then stridently refusing to listen to anything being said there.
          If you ever come across such a situation, you let us know, ‘k?

        3. moebius2778

          If someone were to prove me wrong, I would sincerely apologize. But so far I have been only insulted or posters would try to invoke the need for special treatment for LGBTA people since they are discriminated against. I find special treatment just as offensive as discrimination.

          I was going to try explaining, but then I had another thought.

          Why is it anyone’s responsibility to demonstrate why your statements can be viewed as being oppressive? Why isn’t it your responsibility to be responsible for your own actions and statements and to try to avoid being oppressive through them?

          For illustration, consider this:

          And homosexuals and transpeople go along with it, claiming it is a fundemental part of their indentity and trolling all those people by organizing “pride parades”.

          How did you come to the conclusion that pride parades were trolling? Was this just something you came up with on your own? Or did you study the history of the gay movement and come to this conclusion?

          And, you know, if it’s something you came up with on your own, and your view is, “Well, if a gay person explained what a pride parade was to me and it seemed reasonable, I’d perfectly okay with pride parades,” that just asks the question again, why would it be a gay person’s responsibility to educate you? Why wouldn’t it be your responsibility?

        4. Josh Slocum

          On repeat until it gets through your thick skull:

          STOP telling the world how we make you sick. You’re helping foment an atmosphere that gets us beaten, killed and deprived of our civil rights.

          STOP IT.

    3. 26.3
      Vene

      “I am also getting extremely tired of repeating myself… I do not consider LGBT people themselves disgusting. Yes, I find some acts they do disgusting the same way I find some things that heterosexuals couples do disgusting.”

      I’m going to be exceedingly generous and give you a pass on the LGB in regards to their sexual acts. But, you also said you find transpeople disgusting. For them, there is no “act” but instead a state of being. This is still no defense and you’re still a miserable excuse for a human being.

  27. 27
    Cassie

    I now pronounce feeding time closed!

  28. 28
    Lausten North

    I didn’t read every post, but I doubt this has been said. Religion is not a creator of norms, it is a supporter of them. As such, it has sometimes played a role in changing norms, slavery being a good example. Some people prefer to work within religion to make those changes, some from without. I eventually choose without, but I have friends still working within and don’t fault them.

    I think Natalie overstates her case just a bit. Religion is not based on hating LGBTs. I know she doesn’t say that, but she talks about what it is based on. It claims to be based on love. Instead of saying, “no it isn’t, it should end”, we could say, “if you are, then act like it”.

    1. 28.1
      Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

      Religion creates and supports norms. And I would rather not reinforce the idea that it’s based in love, thanks, when it absolutely is not.

  29. 29
    sharkjack

    feeding time may be over, but I could still go for a midnight snack :P, so here’s my two cents, flay them alive if you disagree, that’s what they’re there for.

    I think the analogy with food is halfway accurate, in the sense that you start out with something pretty much arbitrary (as in you didn’t actively choose them) and they can be changed, even by you. In the case of food, I used to not eat a lot of stuff. My parents wouldn’t have any of it, because they knew how much it sucks to not like lots of food when you’re grown up. So they ‘forced me’ to eat stuff I didn’t like, which conditioned me to like it at least enough to stomach it, resulting in me being able to eat a large variety of food, and I’m happy they made me eat the stuff I didn’t like when I was young.

    Now where the analogy doesn’t hold is that me not liking a certain food is annoying for me, but I would hardly call it immoral. The same cannot be said for being disgusted by LGBT people and things that they do that they should be allowed to do. You have to ask yourself, is this disgust something I’m okay with feeling, or is it actually contributing to harm that’s being done to other people. I feel like it does, and I cannot see how anyone can feel like it doesn’t. So I’m not okay with feeling disgust (which I used to, I’m sad to admit, and not too long ago at that)

    Tastes aren’t some stagnant thing that define who you are forever like some unchanging soulthing, they change and you yourself can change them. So don’t act like ‘hey this is my taste get of my back’. You should know that here of all places, if you say something stupid, you’re going to get flayed alive. So if you tell people you’re disgusted by behaviour that you yourself admit is perfectly okay, they are going to respond and tell you why that is BS and why you yourself should strive to change your tastes, as it is the moral thing to do. Or at the very least, you should not act as if finding the acts immoral is okay, since it validates more extreme believes about making/keeping it illegal, (which granted in a perfect world wouldn’t happen, but since we’re not living in a perfect world that point is pretty much moot).

    I’m happy you are pro equality heisenburg,
    I’m not happy you are disgusted by otherwise appropriate behavior based on who is performing it and most of all
    I think that while you have the right to state your tastes, you should strive to change them so that they are no longer causing harm. That is the a moral person should behave and it is the rational thing to do.

  30. 30
    Michael Halila

    “I find special treatment just as offensive as discrimination.”

    So in your world, not being called disgusting and not having your identity denied, mocked and misrepresented is reprehensible “special treatment”. That may actually be the best short summary of bigotry I’ve ever come across.

  31. 31
    Michael Halila

    “If someone came to me and said they find heterosexual sex disgusting, I would not be offended or take it personally, nor would I have reason to. Why should it be any different for homosexuals or others?”

    Why indeed. It’s not like gay and trans people occupy a different position in society, or are in any way treated differently than straight, cisgendered people. It’s obviously wrong for minorities to stand up for themselves and expect to not be vilified, slander and persecuted, because that would be “special treatment”.

  32. 32
    terrycollins

    “It’s not like gay and trans people occupy a different position in society, or are in any way treated differently than straight, cisgendered people. It’s obviously wrong for minorities to stand up for themselves and expect to not be vilified, slander and persecuted, because that would be “special treatment”.”

    It’s cold, but it’s true. Equal treatment means equal for everyone, without special considerations. I tend to think affirmative action policies are ultimately detrimental to a united society.

    “Exactly which bit of “I find homosexuality and transgender disgusting” do you think heisenbug could have phrased more diplomatically to avoid “insulting word choices”?”

    Thank you for the question. I would have wrote something like, “Homosexual activities personally turn me off, but don’t deny the right to anyone else.” I can’t really say much about transgender. (Read the entire wikipedia article, but still have no clue.)

    I would only use the word “disgust” pertaining to specific sexual acts.

    1. 32.1
      Sas

      @33

      I tend to think affirmative action policies are ultimately detrimental to a united society.

      Breaking news! We don’t live in a united society.

      1. terrycollins

        Doesn’t mean we cannot strive for it. We definitely don’t get there by giving certain groups special rights.

        1. Vene

          When I see things like “THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP INCREASES FOURFOLD” I’m far more inclined to think you’re the one arguing for whites to have special rights. When I see the figures from the report, such as this I’m more inclined to say we are the ones being granted special rights. How else can I explain a $95,000 gap in earnings?

          I can find you other sources with the same findings, like this one about the change in earning as a result of the recession. Funny how black households lost almost twice what white households did.

          Our society is fundamentally unequal, programs like affirmative action seek to correct that inequality. You could maybe have a case if you were suggesting an alternative to fix the problem, but when it’s a denial of the problem with a pseudoethical rationale, not so much. What you advocate would only increase the inequality and increase the number of special rights whites receive.

        2. Anri

          It is not only me that consider pride parades as a way to troll homophobes and such. A decent amount of homosexuals share my opinion as well. Yes, there are huge problems in our society, but by giving preferential treatment to one group other another, nothing will be solved. I am even ready to argue that it will only impede the road for equal rights. As far as I know, nothing was gained with those pride parades.

          I don’t suppose it would be constructive to suggest that pride parades might not actually be about you, but about the participants?

          Would it be pointless to suggest that any homophobe can utterly, once and for all, avoid any ‘trolling’ by… ceasing to hate LGBTA people?

          Finally, can I presume it would be equally futile to ask what thousands of years of sitting down and shutting up have earned minorities, as opposed to visible action?

          I still stay by my words that I subjectively find some things the LGBTA community does disgusting even if it is irrational. I am comfortable with that and my feelings can harm no one rational. Why should I change my feelings in the first place, what is so immoral about having feelings? If it is a problem, then it is mine along. I do not care how tasty pickles are, I am not interested in changing my subjective tastes. I would certainly not be grateful to my parents to to anyone, who would force feed me pickles, no matter how wonderful that world is.

          You are free to be a bigot.
          You are even free to tell people about your bigotry, and remain happy and comfortable with it.
          You are not free, however, to avoid the disdain of non-bigots in announcing you find Jews blacks LGBTA people disgusting.

          I find it idiotic to get outraged from a small off-hand comment that had no intentions of insulting anyone. Again, I only wanted to show I could understand the feelings of the crazy conservatives and I still disapproved their actions.

          It’s a pity you don’t understand outrage at public professions of bigotry. Protip: if you don’t want people to call you a bigot, don’t tell them you are one. Even better, don’t be one, but baby steps, yanno?

          Frankly speaking, I do not know much about the LGBTA community and I do not care. One does not have to be an expert on LGBTA people to support them. I do not care about the sexual preferences of my friends. My friends can turn out to be gay/lesbian/whatever and I would still treat them the same as before because I could not care any less. I support the fight for equal rights not because the LGBTA community is oppressed, but because human beings are oppressed.

          And until you understand that the reason people are being oppressed cannot be seperated in the minds of their oppressors from the LGBTA status, you will never understand why your attempts to create equality fail.
          In other words, the part of you that believes that public statements of bigotry should be free from criticism, is the part of you that aids the bigots.

          1. Anders

            Finally, can I presume it would be equally futile to ask what thousands of years of sitting down and shutting up have earned minorities, as opposed to visible action?

            That’s the question that brought me around on Pride parades. I sat down and thought long and hard about this and realized that persecuted minorities have always had to fight to get rights. And in order to do this they must become visible.

  33. 33
    Michael Halila

    “Equal treatment means equal for everyone, without special considerations.”

    What you’re actually saying is that equal treatment means continuing violence against minorities. And in the context of this conversation, by defending heisenbug, you also seem to be saying that members of the majority have a right to promote hatred against minorities and vilify them, but those minorities or people who sympathize with them don’t have a right to disagree or stand up for themselves. What you’re advocating isn’t equal treatment, it’s mob rule where the prejudices of the majority are right and minorities should sit down and shut up.

    1. 33.1
      terrycollins

      “What you’re actually saying is that equal treatment means continuing violence against minorities. ”

      I’m advocating nothing of the sort, nor did I or anyone else here state anything close to what you posted.

      1. nats

        “It’s cold, but it’s true. Equal treatment means equal for everyone, without special considerations”

        Exactly. So I can only assume that you agree with legislation that enshrines the rights of trans* and LGB people, therefore putting us on equal footing with the cis straight segment of society.

  34. 34
    Cassie

    I think of equality in society as like a set of scales. Queer people’s side is rather empty, so non queer people are elevated up. This cannot be solved by ignoring it, by refusing to give them “special” treatment. It can only be changed by paying attention to how much the low side of the scale needs to be even to the high side of the scale and to add items accordingly.

    Which some may consider special treatment, but many would consider addressing inequalities in society through action.

    I am a fan of affirmative action. It is a recognition of the imbalance in the scales and an attept to rectify it.

    Like Natalie said this issue shows that atheism isn’t necessarily the most important thing, but rather ones views on these important societal issues. I would much rather associate with a theist who supported gay rights than people like heidenbug and terry.

    1. 34.1
      Michael Halila

      For what it’s worth, I’m definitely not a fan of affirmative action. That it’s even been mentioned in this discussion is a red herring by heisenbug and terry to distract attention from what we’re actually on about.

    2. 34.2
      terrycollins

      “I think of equality in society as like a set of scales.”

      So did the pigs in George Orwell’s Animal farm:

      “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

      1. LykeX

        Oh, noble sir. Thank god we have you to fight against this cruel oppression. God forbid that you should be asked to moderate your language before dumping a pile of shit on a group of people who have to take more crap in a single day than you face in a life time.

        Your courage shall not be forgotten. Keep fighting for what truly matters: the rights of privileged assholes to post crap about minorities on message boards.

  35. 35
    heisenbug

    It is not only me that consider pride parades as a way to troll homophobes and such. A decent amount of homosexuals share my opinion as well. Yes, there are huge problems in our society, but by giving preferential treatment to one group other another, nothing will be solved. I am even ready to argue that it will only impede the road for equal rights. As far as I know, nothing was gained with those pride parades.

    I still stay by my words that I subjectively find some things the LGBTA community does disgusting even if it is irrational. I am comfortable with that and my feelings can harm no one rational. Why should I change my feelings in the first place, what is so immoral about having feelings? If it is a problem, then it is mine along. I do not care how tasty pickles are, I am not interested in changing my subjective tastes. I would certainly not be grateful to my parents to to anyone, who would force feed me pickles, no matter how wonderful that world is.

    I find it idiotic to get outraged from a small off-hand comment that had no intentions of insulting anyone. Again, I only wanted to show I could understand the feelings of the crazy conservatives and I still disapproved their actions.

    Frankly speaking, I do not know much about the LGBTA community and I do not care. One does not have to be an expert on LGBTA people to support them. I do not care about the sexual preferences of my friends. My friends can turn out to be gay/lesbian/whatever and I would still treat them the same as before because I could not care any less. I support the fight for equal rights not because the LGBTA community is oppressed, but because human beings are oppressed.

    1. 35.1
      Vene

      Saying you’re being irrational, but going to continue anyway in a skeptical space is really fucking stupid. The entire movement is about getting rid of irrational bullshit. You outright state you believe in irrational bullshit, but why don’t you work to change yourself? What kind of stupid as fuck defense is this?

    2. 35.2
      Rasmus

      It’s a bit late to start saying that you don’t care. I don’t care about your personal preferences, but I care about you trying to make bigotry sound like a legitimate position.

      Okay, so you’re right that a lot of LGBTQ people don’t like the pride parade. Maybe even a majority. Maybe even a wast majority. I don’t know. It’s irrelevant. (Although it might help you to develop a more civilized and less evil world view to think about most LGBTQ people as people who are much like you, except for a few differences, all of which are of course none of your business.)

      So what? LGBTQ people who don’t like the pride parade are free to not take part in it. Whenever you’re arguing against something harmless based on it being unpopular you are effectively arguing for a form of tyranny.

      Now, you might say “I don’t do anything to impose it on them”. YES YOU DO! It seems you pretty much can’t post a comment without doing it.

    3. 35.3
      HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

      Okay dude, thing the first: Stop fucking calling us “homosexuals”. It’s both offensive and inaccurate as fuck for a lot of us. Ahem. Not that you give a shit about LGBTQI people’s feelings, as you amply prove. Thing the second: do you actually know why pride parades exist? To commemorate the fact that we aren’t fucking outlaws in most of the countries where they happen just for being queer. And that’s something that we fought, with blood, work and passion for. That’s fucking worth celebrating, though as you don’t seem to have ever had to fight for this kind of thing, I can see why it would be beyond you.

      As for your defence of irrational, hurtful bullshit? Get the fuck out then. You’re not remotely rational, and you’re defending opposition to critical thought. And your intentions? Fuck them too. That you’re self-absorbed enough to think that human fucking beings aren’t going to be offended by your dehumanizing shit is mind-boggling. Your intention to simply express how revolting you find us doesn’t matter, and I don’t see how this could be shocking. You are not in any way a supporter. You’re even worse than the usual homphobes because you think you’re not a bigoted piece of shit.

      1. Anders

        There seems to be some kind of Dunning-Kruger effect with bigotry – no one believes hirself to be a bigot, even if the bigotry is readily apparent to all onlookers. Except the few* who actually revel in their bigotry.

        *and not so few, unfortunately

        1. HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

          Very good point. Unless you’re actually bashing someone to death right this second, you’re not a bigot. And if you are doing that, chances are you’re pretty proud of your bigotry.

  36. 36
    pentatomid

    It is not only me that consider pride parades as a way to troll homophobes and such. A decent amount of homosexuals share my opinion as well. Yes, there are huge problems in our society, but by giving preferential treatment to one group other another, nothing will be solved. I am even ready to argue that it will only impede the road for equal rights. As far as I know, nothing was gained with those pride parades.

    The pride parades are not just trolling. They’re there to raise public awareness. It’s been shown that mistrusted groups in society become less and less mistrusted once it becomes clear that these people (whether we’re talking about black people, the LGBT community or indeed atheists) are present all around us. That’s what things like pride parades are for. That’s also what things like the Reason Rally are for (at least in part). Are we atheists just trolling the religious by organizing atheist events? I wouldn’t say so. So why do you think pride parades are merely trolling?

    I find it idiotic to get outraged from a small off-hand comment that had no intentions of insulting anyone. Again, I only wanted to show I could understand the feelings of the crazy conservatives and I still disapproved their actions.

    How dense can you get. FFS. We know you ‘find it idiotic’ that we are outraged from your ‘small off-hand comment’. THAT’S THE FUCKING PROBLEM. How the hell can you not get it? How can you not get how offensive your comments have been throughout this thread? Yes, I know, you meant no harm, you’re intentions were good, blah blah blah… I don’t care about your intent here. You said what you said, and what you said was bullshit!

  37. 37
    embertine

    heisenbug, please put the defensiveness aside for a second and think about what people here are trying to tell you. When you speak about members of society who have traditionally been massively discriminated against to the point of ostracisation, violence and often murder, with little recourse to justice simply because of who they are, then using the word “disgusting” to describe them IS NOT IN ANY FUCKING POSSIBLE WAY the same as not liking pickles.

    And I know you are framing this as simply being turned off by certain acts, but being trans is not a behaviour. Nor is being queer, actually. It’s a part of someone’s identity, something that they didn’t choose and which has probably caused them untold suffering in their life. So when you say that gay and trans people disgust you because of what they do, you are not saying “I think anal sex is unhygenic”, or “I’m squeamish about surgery so I don’t want to think about SRS”, you are calling ACTUAL PEOPLE disgusting.

    You probably don’t see it because you may have never been on the receiving end of that kind of comment. But please try to think about it.

  38. 38
    heisenbug

    Ok… This is getting nowhere so this is going to be my last post on the thread…

    I support LGBTA rallies since they do help people. It is a different point about pride parades that add needless confusion into the movement. Why should you be proud of being normal? It is one thing to make your existence known and it is another to make it look like you are someone different from regular people. Even your supporters and some members of your community get confused with that message… And if people like that get confused, what can you say about conservatives?

    As for my words… Yes, you are a moronic bunch that gets offended by my PERSONAL dislikes and who fails to logically explain why my comment is offensive. I do not care about your sexual likes and dislikes and I would be grateful if you could treat me the same in that regard. You can love/hate/not care about foot fetish and you should be free to voice your opinion. I do not mind and I should not mind. It is completely retarded to be outraged by someone s subjective dislike even if the subject is tremendously important to you.

    And if you consider sexuality central to one s personality, because society said so… Well, my condolence for rejecting your ability to think and going along with the brain-dead zombie crowd.

    1. 38.1
      pentatomid

      Even your supporters and some members of your community get confused with that message…

      You apear to be adressing my previous comment here, but… ‘your community’? I do not belong to the LGBTA community myself so it’s not really ‘my’ community. However, I will fight bullshit like yours where and when I encounter it. And do not give me the old ‘I’m disgusted with what they do, not with the people that do it’ thing, because that is just a stupid ‘hate the sin, not the sinner’ argument.
      We’re the morons? Take a good hard look in the mirror, sweetie. There sure is a moron here, but it’s not who you think it is.

    2. 38.2
      Martin Wagner

      you are a moronic bunch that gets offended by my PERSONAL dislikes and who fails to logically explain why my comment is offensive.

      I think you are confusing “you are failing to explain” with “I am refusing to listen.”

    3. 38.3
      Rasmus

      You had to poop out one final false equivalence before you left, huh?

      Well, goodbye then. Be safe. Watch out for the foot fetish-bashers!

  39. 39
    Cassie

    Most of the pride parades are to commemorate protest movements. The very recent mardis gras in australia is in memory of the initial parade which was a protest to gain political rights. They also tend to mourn those who have been killed in protest.

    Memorial days for soldiers are not designed to troll anti-patriots they are there to commemorate what has been gained and lost.

  40. 40
    Cassie

    Terry,

    I don’t see how quoting orwell is relevant?

    But to be honest I will put you on the hiedenbug list or whatever his name is, that is to say that when I see your name I will skip past your comment to someone more rational. You have both proved too many times that your desire is to troll.

    1. 40.1
      terrycollins

      It’s relevant because your idea of equality in scales isn’t new, and Orwell did a pretty good job demonstrating that such a system is flawed.

      1. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

        It’s always the assholes who quote Orwell, I’ve noticed. He’s right up there with Ayn Rand and Heinlein.

  41. 41
    amhovgaard

    heisenbug: Being so self-centered that you can’t tell the difference between “homosexuality” and you personally being fucked by some big hairy guy is pretty offensive. So is telling people that what they do and what they are is disgusting (“homosexuality” is not something people do, that would be “gay sex” – and WRT trans people you can’t even hide behind an inability to express yourself intelligibly). Nobody was asking. And while feeling that way is your problem and we can’t tell you to stop (just suggest politely that you might want to think about where these feelings might come from, as they are definitely not universal in straight men), expressing them is not only hurtful, it also makes those people who say the exact same things to explain why they discriminate against or beat up LGBT people feel that they have your support.

  42. 42
    paul

    @heisenbug, let me try to put this in easy terms for you:

    It’s a given that straight people generally aren’t into gay sex. If they liked gay sex, they would probably be gay. You don’t need to remind people that you’re not a fan of gay sex, especially since that is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the topic at hand. People might also appreciate it if you either kept your trap shut about being squicked out by transgenderism or admit that it’s an irrational hangup that you’d like to get over someday.

    In short, politeness could have gotten you a long ways here.

    1. 42.1
      Vene

      Oh no, it’s better than that, he says he knows it’s irrational but that he doesn’t care. His freedom to irrationally proclaim an entire class of people are disgusting is of greater value to him than to bother changing himself for the better. He must know it is for the better because that is the rational stance. He is a sad little man and if he wasn’t spewing bigoted filth I’d say he deserves our pity; instead, he deserves scorn and contempt.

  43. 43
    terrycollins

    Call me a troll, bigot, or whatever. What I see here is people with special attractions coming out of the closet (and supporters), trying to push people with repulsions into the closet. Tolerance and acceptance is not good enough, we must be extra sensitive. Screw our rights to be frank about our own sexual tendencies.

    We should have our own pride parades. Not for gay bashing, but to promote what we men like about heterosexuality, and be just as outrageous. Of course, our floats will mostly feature scantily clad go-go dancers shaking their booty in cages. Oh no wait, that would probably piss off many feminists. Some would probably even describe it as disgusting…

    1. 43.1
      Josh Slocum

      Tolerance and acceptance is not good enough, we must be extra sensitive.

      That’s right. “Tolerance” is NOT enough. Neither is “acceptance,” the way you formulate it.

      1. Take your tolerance and shove it up your ass. You don’t get to “tolerate” queers, as that implies a magnanimous forbearing on your part. You’re deigning to suffer our presence, for which we should be grateful. Guess what fucker: we don’t require nor do we care about your “tolerance.”

      We demand to be treated as full and equal citizens and we’ll take it from you forcefully if you’re not human enough to do it voluntarily.

      I don’t give a shit if you affect to tolerate me, because I’m not going anywhere even if you don’t.

      And don’t even (I see your fingers itching to type): You’re NOT my ally.

      2. Yes, you should be “extra-sensitive.” So long as queers are beat up, kicked out of their homes, fired from their jobs, beaten within an inch of their lives, ostracized from political office, driven to suicide in high school, denied marriage rights, denied even the right to direct the funerals of their spouses because next of kin can literally snatch the body away, legally, then you GOD DAMN OUGHT TO BE EXTRA-SENSITIVE.

      And if you can’t bring yourself to do so out of basic human empathy, then you should go die in a fire.

      You hateful, insulated, privileged self-centered fucks.

    2. 43.2
      Anders

      Ok. You’re a bigot.

    3. 43.3
      pentatomid

      Jesus Babiroussa Christ,you really are a bigot.

    4. 43.4
      Stacy

      We should have our own pride parades. Not for gay bashing, but to promote what we men like about heterosexuality, and be just as outrageous. Of course, our floats will mostly feature scantily clad go-go dancers shaking their booty in cages.

      There’s a radical idea. Just imagine if popular culture catered to what “you men” like about heterosexuality! Why, every other advertisement, on teevee and billboards and online and in magazines, would feature scantily-clad women! Popular culture would be just chock full of cute young women shaking their booty! We’d all pretty much be surrounded 24/7 by what “we men like about heterosexuality.”

      Oh, wait, that isn’t a radical idea at all. That’s pretty much the world we live in.

      Poor terrycollins. The culture’s spending less time promoting what normal manly he-men like him like about heterosexuality, and some uppity different people, queers and feminists and such, are promoting stuff they like instead. They think they’re special and they want special rights.

      1. Stacy

        That should have been “special rights” with scare quotes. “Special rights” for “special attractions”.

    5. 43.5
      LykeX

      We should have our own pride parades. Not for gay bashing, but to promote what we men like about heterosexuality, and be just as outrageous. Of course, our floats will mostly feature scantily clad go-go dancers shaking their booty in cages.

      You already have that. It’s called mainstream culture.

      Stop pretending you’re an oppressed minority just because you’re being asked to show a minimum of consideration. You’re behaving as a textbook example of a privileged asshole.

      1. embertine

        Please accept a virtual high five for your masterly summation.
        *high fives*

    6. 43.6
      Anri

      Call me a troll, bigot, or whatever.

      Ask, and it shall be given unto you…

      What I see here is people with special attractions coming out of the closet (and supporters), trying to push people with repulsions into the closet.

      Yes.
      Some of of honestly believe – and I know that this is crazy talk – that people who openly describe their disgust with other people’s skin color sexual practices are being bigoted and should keep their mouths shut or risk being called bigots.

      Tolerance and acceptance is not good enough, we must be extra sensitive. Screw our rights to be frank about our own sexual tendencies.

      Two things: “I’m disgusted by (X)” isn’t being tolerant of (X). It’s being disgusted by (X). Please don’t mistake these two – it will make your life easier.
      Second, you saying you’re disgusted with gay sex isn’t commenting on your own sexual tendencies unless you’re having gay sex. If you’re not, it’s commenting on other people’s sexual tendencies.

      We should have our own pride parades. Not for gay bashing, but to promote what we men like about heterosexuality, and be just as outrageous.

      Feel free. They can run right after the White Pride parades. You might even be able to borrow their sheets.

      Of course, our floats will mostly feature scantily clad go-go dancers shaking their booty in cages. Oh no wait, that would probably piss off many feminists. Some would probably even describe it as disgusting…

      And the fact that you’re conflating your dislike of other people having gay sex and feminists’ objecting to objectifying women as sex toys demonstrates that you have less of a grasp on this topic than you should.
      Not to mention, you should perhaps take a look to see if scantily-clad women are exactly a rare thing in parades. Unless, of course, you’re posting from the 1890′s. In which case, never mind.

    7. 43.7
      Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

      That’s called mainstream society, you whiny privileged jackhole. Everything from sports events to TV commercials to TV shows and movies.

      Let me guess, you also piss and moan about there being no White Entertainment Television.

    8. 43.8
      HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

      Tell you what, there Skippy, I’mma let you in on a secret, one that may get me wiped out by the Vast Gay Conspiracy: If you want a fucking straight pride parade, get the bloody licenses and permits, get your idiot friends and have one. They don’t just magically happen, shitforbrains.

      Next: You’re free to say whatever you want about other human beings and their love lives and identities. Really. I promise. BUT, because of how free speech works, we can say you’re a bigoted shitstain. Why do you hate free speech? Also, your idiocy is dying out. Deal with it. Queer rights (that is, human rights) and the acknowledgment that LGBTQI people are humans with the dignity due all people is here. You lose.

  44. 44
    Josh Slocum

    Whoops, I forgot—

    Call me a troll, bigot, or whatever.

    You’re a bigot. You’re actively helping stoke the flames of rhetorical and physical violence against queer people.

    You’re scum and you have no place in civilized society until you wake the fuck up and change your attitude. You are an enemy to humanism, compassion, and decent society.

    People are dying because of the things you say.

    1. 44.1
      terrycollins

      “People are dying because of the things you say.”

      I call BS on that!

      1. Josh Slocum

        You’re a hateful, self-centered piece of shit. Naturally you feel that way.

        1. terrycollins

          I could ask you connect the dots to any deaths I have personally caused, but I wouldn’t want you or anyone else to commit suicide just to prove a point.

          And you don’t need to force any equal rights from me. It’s my point that EVERYONE should be treated equally. You just want to be more equal. I get it. I don’t agree, but I get it.

          1. Josh Slocum

            No, you don’t get it. You don’t get what anyone less privileged than you has to go through. And that’s what makes you thoroughly reprehensible. You don’t even care.

            You’re a shitbag, terrycollins.

          2. terrycollins

            “You don’t get what anyone less privileged than you has to go through.”

            How the hell do you know anything about what advantages and disadvantages I’ve had in life? As if being straight was all that was needed for an easy life! As if the LBGT community had a monopoly on hardships!

            “And that’s what makes you thoroughly reprehensible. You don’t even care.”

            I do have blunt perspectives, perhaps I’m part Vulcan.

  45. 45
    Josh Slocum

    And you know what, Atheist Experience folks? I love you guys. Been a fan and listener for years. You rock.

    But I think it’s high time you put the kibosh on this homo-misogy-transphobic bullshit in this thread. We’ve debated this enough. The bigots have had their say, and we’ve responded.

    How much more of this fucking shit are we supposed to take in good graces? Can’t you can it already?

    Fuck.

    1. 45.1
      Martin Wagner

      You don’t have to take any of it in good graces. But it takes a lot more than having despicable views to get banned here. Bad ideas should be aired, and then challenged, challenged and challenged some more. Only through consciousness raising do ideas get changed.

      I do think, however, that you and terrycollins are definitely not making headway, and it may be time for the bell to ring and you guys to head to your respective locker rooms.

      1. Josh Slocum

        And if you think this is an even match, Martin, with terrycollins giving as many valid points as he gets back, then bully to you. I find it disgusting that you’d take a “he said, she said” approach.

        You’ve got a Simon Pure bigot on one hand, and someone who’s calling him out on the other. This isn’t some personal grudge match. If you’re not willing to call sides, fine, but don’t you dare call it “well, whatever, you two work it out.”

        Jesus.

        1. Martin Wagner

          You two have settled into what amounts to a simple flame war. It’s going nowhere. Some people you can’t reach, especially by shouting profanities at them. Don’t go thinking that by pointing that out, I’m drawing some moral equivalency between your views. terrycollins needs to realize whatever “repulsions” he has are his own problem, and that people who ask not to be treated as if they are “repulsive” are not in fact asking for more rights, just the same ones enjoyed by people privileged enough not to be found repulsive as part of their day to day experience. It’s not that your anger towards views like his isn’t justified, it’s that he’ll listen to the invective you’re hurling at him and very probably decide it validates his belief there’s just something wrong with people like you.

          1. terrycollins

            Please point out where I “flamed” anyone and I will apologize. I’m not the one spewing vulgarities.

          2. Martin Wagner

            The exchange was a flamewar, period. Both participants don’t have to be equally vulgar in their language to keep a pointless shouting match going.

  46. 46
    Winterwind

    We should have our own pride parades. Not for gay bashing, but to promote what we men like about heterosexuality, and be just as outrageous. Of course, our floats will mostly feature scantily clad go-go dancers shaking their booty in cages. Oh no wait, that would probably piss off many feminists. Some would probably even describe it as disgusting…

    You’ve just described the majority of music video clips, video games, Hollywood movies, advertisements, sporting events and TV shows. The straight male gaze saturates our media. Heterosexual males don’t need a pride parade because the whole damn world is your pride parade, but you’re so unconscious of your privilege that you don’t even notice it, in the same way that fish don’t notice they’re swimming in water.

    When this dominance is challenged – when other sexualities and identities become more visible and enter the mainstream – when someone introduces a gay character in a video game, or trans bloggers appear on a well-known blog network, or someone asks you to be considerate of other people’s experiences and watch your language – in other words, when the world is catering to someone other than heterosexual males – suddenly you become concerned because your view is no longer the default, normal, correct one.

    You start complaining about how some minorites are “forcing things down your throat” and asking for “special consideration” and being given “more rights than everyone else”, when all they’re really asking for is the privilege you’ve enjoyed all along, that is, to be treated like a full and equal member of society.

    You see gay people dancing in their underwear in pride parades as unhelpful, too in-your-face, attracting attention, sending the wrong message and too sexual. On the other hand, big silicon-titted botoxed anorexic blonde girls starring in movies, pasted across billboards, presenting the news, gyrating in g-strings in music videos, making out in front of cameras is normal, natural, so ubiquitous you don’t notice it, just the way society works, good clean fun, boys will be boys, how dare you suggest otherwise, etc.

    A gay character in Dragon Age is “forcing inappropriate sexuality on innocent children” but Lara Croft’s ass and tits in Tombraider was just normal, natural (i.e. heterosexual) gaming. And then you have the audacity to say, Where’s my pride parade? Open your fucking eyes. It’s all around you.

    When you say you just want everyone to be treated equally, what you really mean in practical terms is that you want to preserve the status quo of our society, which is highly unequal. What you really mean is that you don’t want your prejudices and your comfortable thought patterns to be challenged. What you really mean is that you want to deny reality and pretend we live in a magical meritocratic utopia, in which all classes of people have equal opportunities, rights, privileges and experiences.

    What you call “special rights” for minorities, or treating them “specially,” is actually giving them an equal voice, thus upsetting the status quo. That’s why you find it so uncomfortable. As a straight (presumably white, relatively well educated, relatively well off, Western, culturally Christian insofar as your upbringing was religious) man, you belong to several majority groups, you’re used to the idea that your opinion is the default, normal, neutral, objective opinion. When people disagree with your views and call you a bigot, it causes cognitive dissonance. You can double down on your ignorance or try to educate yourself and expand your perspective.

    1. 46.1
      pentatomid

      Now this is one awesome comment.

    2. 46.2
      Martin Wagner

      Winterwind wins all the internets.

    3. 46.3
      MarkB

      What I can’t understand is how an atheist can’t recognize privilege after living their life in the United States and being subjected to the Christmas Season, “In God We Trust”, “Under God”, Ann Coulter’s bestselling book Godless, George Bush Sr., the entire Republican Party, the Boy Scouts, just to name a few. Can’t you take that extra step and realize what the GLBT community must go through every day of their lives? Don’t you have any empathy? Why is it hard??

    4. 46.4
      terrycollins

      “You start complaining about how some minorites are “forcing things down your throat””

      Never posted anything like that.

      “You see gay people dancing in their underwear in pride parades as unhelpful, too in-your-face, attracting attention, sending the wrong message and too sexual.”

      I never once complained about such things.

      “And then you have the audacity to say, Where’s my pride parade? Open your fucking eyes. It’s all around you.”

      Stop misquoting me. My point about a heterosexual pride parades was that some people would call it “disgusting”. And that would be their right, and men would NOT be in arms about such statements.

      “When you say you just want everyone to be treated equally, what you really mean in practical terms is that you want to preserve the status quo of our society, which is highly unequal. ”

      Untrue. I realize today’s society is not perfect and would like to see one where everyone is treated equally, as I stated several times. Just as religion does not deserve special status as a taboo subject because it’s a person’s faith, one should be able to talk freely and be honest about attractions AND repulsions, even if such talk may be uncomfortable for some people who’s sexuality is a large part of their identity.

      “What you call “special rights” for minorities, or treating them “specially,” is actually giving them an equal voice, thus upsetting the status quo. That’s why you find it so uncomfortable.”

      Sorry, but this is another mischaracterization. Never said I was was “uncomfortable” by the actions of the LBGT communities. What I am against, is someone being blasted merely for stating their sexual preferences and dislikes. heisenbug was treated EXACTLY as you wouldn’t want someone coming out the closet to be treated.

      “you belong to several majority groups”

      So what? A gay white male belongs to all the same groups except one. I’m a Anglophone living Quebec, so I’m part of another minority group. I’ve also had my share of disadvantages compared to others, but the difference is I’m not asking for any special considerations because of them.

      Martin says you “wins all the internets”, but all your points are just strawman arguments.

      1. Martin Wagner

        Heisenbug was blasted because his stating his dislikes contributed nothing to the conversation but gratuitous negativity. If you’re someone who supports GLBT rights and equality, as he indicated, it’s enough just to say so without having to add something like “…although you all gross me the fuck out.” It makes you sound like your support is a reluctantly held burden as opposed to genuine support, and that whatever you claim your views on equality are, they take a backseat to your personal tastes and/or hangups. Imagine some clueless male speaking out in favor of equal opportunities for women while insisting on talking about how gross fat chicks are. It’s kind of like that.

        1. terrycollins

          Well at least you state that he said “something like” because you misquoted what he actually said, and what he actually meant. It was clear to me that he was talking about homosexual acts, not the people performing those acts. I see a distinction between the two.

          What he stated was undiplomatic, but I already addressed this contention and proposed alternative wording.

          Is it not possible he was stating his preferences just so others would not label him incorrectly? If this thread demonstrates anything, it’s that people quickly and unfairly jump to conclusions. It’s like a microcosm of what happens in the real world. Have gay friends, and risk being called gay yourself. Who wants that acknowledged stigmatization if it isn’t even true? I don’t give a shit what people call me these days, but I can appreciate how it can be problem for those who don’t want segregated from others in the main community.

          1. Martin Wagner

            The point is that heisenbug’s opinion of gay sex acts is immaterial to a discussion of GLBT rights/equality. There was just no reason to bring it up. And if someone is such an idiot that they think your support of GLBT rights means you must be gay too, then they’re the idiot. I have no personal taste for gay sex myself, but my reaction to someone thinking I’m gay (and on top of that, thinking they’ve “stigmatized” me by calling me that) is “Whatever, grow up.” And really, the only people who would do that in the first place are the bad people, the homophobes. And why would I cultivate their favorable opinions over those of decent people?

          2. amhovgaard

            If you are not a bigot, and you have a back bone, you do not waste energy worrying about “but what if people think I’m gay?”

          3. terrycollins

            ‘If you are not a bigot, and you have a back bone, you do not waste energy worrying about “but what if people think I’m gay?”’

            Such a stance only develops with maturity. It may not be so obvious to some.

    5. 46.5
      Cassie

      “A gay character in Dragon Age is “forcing inappropriate sexuality on innocent children” but Lara Croft’s ass and tits in Tombraider was just normal, natural (i.e. heterosexual) gaming. And then you have the audacity to say, Where’s my pride parade? Open your fucking eyes. It’s all around you.”

      I mostly agree with you but your repeated use of terms such as “tits” which is a highly sexualised term, makes me think you are sexist, or at least that your comment reads as sexist.

      It would be quite easy for you to phrase this in a manner that wasn’t offensive. Hypocrite.

      If gay rights come at the cost of women’s rights, no thank you.

      1. Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

        I disagree. There’s nothing inherently sexist about slang terms for sexual parts of the body. In this context, I think “tits & ass” is quite appropriate, because the Lara Croft character was designed to be T&A.

      2. Winterwind

        I mostly agree with you but your repeated use of terms such as “tits” which is a highly sexualised term, makes me think you are sexist, or at least that your comment reads as sexist.

        Of course I am sexist. We all harbour prejudices. If you mean that I am an unrepentant sexist, that is not true. I am trying to improve, though I often fail. This could be an example of that. I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be, however.

        Firstly, let me humbly apologise for using the word “tits.” Upon reflection prompted by your comment, I feel it was unnecessary and offensive. However, I believe that the context in which I used it makes it less egregious than you seem to think.

        Let me explain why I used the word. Personally, I prefer not to use “tits” to refer to women’s bodies because it’s generally used to objectify women. I thought it was pretty clear from my comment that I was using the word from the viewpoint of a rhetorical immature heterosexual male who finds expressions of transgender identity or homosexuality flagrant and disgusting, but doesn’t even notice the far more flagrant ways the male heterosexual gaze reduces women to sex objects in our media.

        In considering whether I was offensive, I asked myself, “Would I be offended if a straight woman were arguing with a homophobic person and she said something like, ‘You think it’s sweet when you see a straight couple holding hands or kissing in public, but when you see a couple of fags doing the same thing… ‘” especially if she used “fags” twice? Possibly I would find that offensive, although I would think that I would recognise she wasn’t directly using the word “fags”, but putting it in the mouth of a rhetorical homophobic person. Would that give her the “right” to use the word fags? Probably not.

        Personally I would feel that although she might be misguided, her heart and argument were in the right place. I probably wouldn’t call her a hypocrite and give her a mini-lecture about how she shouldn’t argue for gay rights or women’s rights until she sorted out her rank hypocrisy. That’s just me, though.

        Hypocrite.

        I disagree. I would be a hypocrite if I did something that I criticised someone else (e.g. terrywilliams, heisenbug) for doing. I don’t believe all offence is of equal value.

        I don’t believe that misguidedly using a sexist word as a rhetorical device is equivalent to expressing disgust for an entire group of people.

        I would be a hypocrite if I said, “I support women’s rights, even though I personally believe that women’s breasts, uteruses and girly parts are icky and disgusting, like pickles. I’m quite happy for women to be female as long as they don’t do it in public where I have to think about their disgusting girly parts. You can be female, just don’t shove it down my throat. And why do women need special quotas to get into maths courses? Why do they think they’re so special for being female? Why are they protected from criticism? Why do they demand special treatment? I think womanly things like menstruation and breastfeeding are disgusting, but I would never violently act on that disgust, and I have a right to express my view.”

        That would make me a hypocrite. I said nothing remotely like that.

        If gay rights come at the cost of women’s rights, no thank you.

        Rights are not a zero-sum game. There is no need to pit minorities against each other.

        In conclusion, I apologise for my offensive use of the word “tits”, but I feel your reaction was overly harsh.

  47. 47
    terrycollins

    “And if someone is such an idiot that they think your support of GLBT rights means you must be gay too, then they’re the idiot.”

    I agree with that, and everything else you wrote, but we don’t know anything about heisenbug’s situation. Perhaps he’s still in school where peer pressure is the norm, and such things DO matter. As a graduated adult, it’s easier to pick who you associate with, but in high school you have no choice but to face the same people everyday. Or maybe he’s out of school, but just hasn’t been exposed to the issues directly, other than what the ‘evil’ media has been feeding him.

    I feel he could have been given more latitude to explain himself better before being blasted, and shown the apparent error of his ways with a bit more compassion. To be fair though, there was a couple of people that tried. And let’s be honest. What heigsenbug posted isn’t nearly as bad as the nasty comments that are circulated among the real bigots in the community.

    And I’m sorry that I don’t care enough of LBGT issues, as many have accused me. But I don’t care enough about a lot of things. It’s nothing personal. You guys have your communities, but this is where I feel is the center of the online atheist community. LBGT rights have little to do with atheism, other than it would be logical for many in the LBGT community to be atheists. After seeing the nastiness posted here (I mean for Christ’s sake, accused of murder no less!), I’m not really sure I want to see many more interactions. One just does not see such vileness when stupid theistic comments are torn apart.

    Anyhow peace out. I am not your enemy.

    1. 47.1
      Martin Wagner

      I feel he could have been given more latitude to explain himself better before being blasted, and shown the apparent error of his ways with a bit more compassion. To be fair though, there was a couple of people that tried. And let’s be honest. What heigsenbug posted isn’t nearly as bad as the nasty comments that are circulated among the real bigots in the community.

      Maybe, but still, the thing to do when confronted with these errors in your thinking is not to get defensive, try to listen, and dialogue, not double and then triple down. But that’s easier said than done, and I’d be lying if I said I’ve never been guilty of stubbornly clinging to ideas I’d have done better to let go of sooner. And the way many of the GLBT people here went off on heisenbug — well, maybe they could have been less ragey, but then I suppose that’s easy for the likes of me to say, as part of my day to day experience of life doesn’t involve constantly being devalued as a human. Seems like that would begin to grate on a person.

      Anyway, this is all why Russell and I haven’t wielded the Loving Mallet of Correction too hard on anyone here. This thread has made a lot of people blow off a lot of steam from pent-up anger, but perhaps that’s needed before some real learning can begin.

      1. terrycollins

        You are probably right that some steam needed to be vented. I’d just like to add that as atheists, our fights are supposed to be with the religious communities, and our support should be for fellow atheists first and foremost. Atheists have been working hard to remove the notion that one’s faith is a taboo subject to talk about, and I’d hate to see us turn around and take the position that talk of one’s sexuality is off limits. We also don’t usually take kindly to emotional arguments and special pleading, which this thread is full of.

        As for what was he said being off topic, such a thing has not been much of problem on the show this blog is an extension of. At the very least, heisenbug’s comment did in fact lead to an on-topic discussion (if you can call it that).

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    [...] hostile reaction I received on Twitter just for mentioning the possibility of writing it), put up a little post asking his readers to help support me in the event that I did get trolled or attacked by religious believers or [...]

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    Caustic Soda | Sincerely, Natalie Reed

    [...] am exhausted. Very very exhausted. Between the controversies last week, the Axp thread, another shitstorm of atheist/skeptic bigotry and hostility and flaunted privilege over at CFI [...]

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    [...] Natalie, after her initial fear of the reactions to her above mentioned post – and getting some support from another FTB blogger – experienced more bigotry from the atheist community than hostile [...]

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