The Foundational Oft-Repeated Fallacies of Sexism Deniers

Lilandra is a username from a little known comic book character.  In real life, I named my children after comic book characters, so my geek credentials cannot be questioned.   My husband is a large biker, cyber-viking ape, that opines about religion, and knows his place in a cladogram.

Lilandra is a username from a little known comic book character. In real life, I named my children after comic book characters, so my geek credentials cannot be questioned. My husband is a large biker, cyber-viking ape, that opines about religion, and knows his place in a cladogram.

9/11 Truthers, Moon Landing Deniers,  Holocaust Deniers, Evolution Deniers, Creationism… It seems controversial ideas are polarizing and can generate extreme views.  Some ideas like the fact that the Earth is spheroid can even generate full-blown conspiracy theories. In fact, there once was a history teacher at my high school that was a flat-earther. This happened during the late 1980’s well after the moon landings. Any picture of the Earth in science and history textbooks pictured it as spheroid. In opposition to stubborn facts, this teacher resolutely decided to spout the same canards to every nail in the coffin that the Earth was flat.  For example he would say that maps were flat, and that proved the Earth was flat.  What about globes you ask?  Government conspiracy!



There will at any given moment in time be at least one discussion ongoing about some aspect of the Discworld considered as a physical object. What does it look like? Where did it come from? Does it rotate? What do constellations look like for the people living on it? Where are the continents located? Is there a map of Ankh-Morpork [There is now] ? What are the names of the Elephants [Berilia, Tubul, Great T’Phon and Jerakeen, just in case anyone’d forgotten] ? Is Great A’Tuin male or female? That sort of thing.

Summarising these discussions is useless: nobody ever agrees on anything, anyway, and besides: half the fun is in the discussion itself — who cares if these issues ever get properly ‘resolved’. From The Annotated Pratchett

If only we could discuss our differences with that little animosity. Granted this is a more important difference of opinion, but still. [/important]

Freethinkers are more often than not skeptical thinkers.  Skepticism is a point of pride to the point that we have robust skeptical organizations like the James Randi Educational Foundation.  Who can ever forget when James Randi owned faith healer, televangelist Peter Popoff on national TV?  It was one of the most awesome pieces of pwnage of religious charlatanism most skeptics have ever seen.  Randi managed to record Popoff receiving personal information in an earpiece about the poor ,sick people who were his marks.  He used that info to defraud them that god had revealed to him things he couldn’t possibly know.

[notice]Peter Popoff debunked by James Randi Video[/notice]

 Despite a very public unmasking of this charlatan, who preyed on sick people for money; he still broadcasts to millions of people today. That fact sickens skeptics…

about the villainy of Peter Popoff

But we know from debating creationists and their ilk just how strong cognitive bias is.

Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism

A decent skeptic will take no personal pride that he/she knows better than credulous people in the grip of cognitive bias.  The very best skeptics frequently examine their own thinking for cognitive biases and attempt to disabuse others of harmful biases.

None of this is news to skeptics.  Which is why the quality of the discussion of harassment within the skeptical community is all the more disheartening.  Before Rebecca Watson ever stepped into that fateful elevator, harassment of women at conferences was already a topic of concern.  Yet any discussion of harassment policies to address these concerns gets bogged down in “Elevatorgate” even though Watson herself never characterized what happened as harassment, which is the First Oft-repeated Fallacy of Sexism Deniers

I have collected a number of comments from Thunderf00t’s recent YouTube video “Why “Feminism”(sic) is poisoning atheism”.  The discussion has some pretty good,freshly minted examples of the canards that most people familiar with this discussion have already heard many times. But this first comment is in response to a Slate article Rebecca Watson wrote…

FOFSD #1 -Feminists -especially Rebecca Watson need to get over Elevatorgate


How does a polite invitation to coffee equate to the “objectification of women as sex objects”? Even assuming he was interested in sex, Elevator Guy did exactly what feminists have been asking for: he took no for an answer. Get over it, Rebecca.



It is amazing that no matter how many times she tells the elevator story, she never comes across as the victim she thinks she is. A male was interested in her and wanted to have sex. How horrible!

I guess some people can’t emotionally escape Puritanism no matter how far they think they’ve run intellectually.

From Slate “It Stands to Reason, Skeptics Can Be Sexist Too” by Rebecca Watson.

But again, I don’t need to. There’s enough evidence floating around the internet. For instance, “Some guy HIT ON ME! He asked me to come back to his room. WHAT A SEXIST!!” <–That’s not total bullshit? I don’t even need to bring up half of it. The vid does a good job of it and I’m shocked that you, who’s “sooo intelligent” didn’t catch what I was implying. Also, I didn’t expect special treatment. You’re an idiot. I love how your description of it is senseless.

And lol, you’re pretty angry. “XD”

Above comment from YouTube “Why “Feminism” is poisoning the skeptical community”. Part 1 by Thunderf00t

Ironically the widespread fallacy that Watson misunderstood this incident as harassment is a misunderstanding. She simply felt uncomfortable about being asked to someone’s hotel room for coffee by a stranger in an elevator.  To make matters worse this one incident is used as an example to make the spectrum of harassment at conferences look inconsequential. Discussion of harassment in the skeptical community is often derailed to recount this incident in laborious detail.

FOFSD #2 -Rebecca Watson/Skepchick is a silly, misandric(sic), “feminist” who owes allegiance to a Hitler-like Supremacist!

Too bad. The Skepchick lady isn’t a feminist, she’s a misandric professional victim. Feminism was about equality, never about “women’s supremacy”.

and this one got 29 thumbs up votes…

Just want to put it out there…

Before all this nonsense? I was a feminist. I really was – I was a 110% feminist and all for women’s rights.

Thanks to Skepchick and her drama, I am no longer feminist, and I’m actually a little embarrassed that I ever was.

Above comments from YouTube “Why “Feminism” is poisoning the skeptical community”. Part 1 by Thunderf00t

These are spot light fallacies.  Even if Watson’s personal ideology was to put men in concentration camps, (which it isn’t) she isn’t an archetypal feminist.  You’d be hard pressed to pick one person that embodied everything that feminism is in the flesh.  Ideas like feminism should be judged on merit not on whether you dislike the person espousing them.

FOFSD #3(managed to combine more than one FOFSD in one comment) this has nothing to do with atheism. Everyone needs to grow up, and the semi-related and equally dismissive accusations that the discussion is attention-whoring and DRAMA!

What has ANY of this got to do with Atheism? Just because people of the opposite sex come into contact with each other, one or two might have sexist tendencies (regardless of your genitalia) and that automatically means it’s their common interests fault?

Fuck me I hate people… Grow the FUCK up people, build a bridge, get the fuck over it and stop generalising, stop making massive leaps to make your own ridiculous conclusions to push some stupid PC agenda! You are wasting AIR….

EonRifft                21 hours ago             

Oh, wait, they think the internet is unimportant and youtube comments have no worth but they censor them and even refuse to let things be rated? Now I am no vulcan grandmaster, but this does not sound especially logical to me.

Conferences need to dump these placating standards they call anti-harassment rules as it just damages the atheist community in order to protect people from non-existent things.

These people need to be ignored as they are just attention whores bent on hijacking atheism.

Above comments from YouTube “Why “Feminism” is poisoning the skeptical community”. Part 1 by Thunderf00t

These are a combination of fallacies that dismiss the discussion of harassment policies at the outset as being unworthy, and unrelated to the atheist community. As if there is a true atheist, that only discusses dictionary atheism.  The irony is missed here by the commenters because they are in effect restricting what is discussed by the atheist community. There is also the implication that people that discuss harassment are immature, and merely looking for attention and don’t have a substantive case.

FOFSD #4 -There is no Patriarchy.

No, Patriarchy theory says that society is built and run by men expressly FOR the needs, wants and desires of men, expressly at the COST of the needs, wants and desires of women. Even though evidence that contradicts that is very often censored, and it flies in the face of male and female psychology. Patriarchy theory most definitely suggests a deep misogyny permeating society at it’s core, and that is just complete bollocks.

in response to this comment that was actually down voted…

You’re thinking of misogyny, not patriarchy. Perhaps if you bothered to learn what these terms actually mean, you wouldn’t be making confused arguments.

Above comments from YouTube “Why “Feminism” is poisoning the skeptical community”. Part 1 by Thunderf00t

It is the ubiquitous Straw Man fallacy. The commenter ignores the actual argument and substitutes with a position that is distorted, misrepresented caricature that is easier to defeat. Yes the “Patriarchy theory” that this commenter describes doesn’t exist to the extent the person describes it to.  Patriarchy is an idea that is hotly contested by sexism deniers.  It really isn’t that controversial.  We live in a male dominated society led by males for the most part. Men and women are commonly socialized differently according to traditional and often religious beliefs.

FOFSD #5 -“Feminazis” are angry, crazy “cunts”,who can’t get “fucked” and need to GTFO because FREE SPEECH!

symnzXx                1 day ago             

HOLD THE FUCK ON.. 7:33 your freedom of speech “ends the second that someone who hears that speech is affected”?? what the fuck are you talking about you crazy cunt? the reason we even have something in writing saying essentially “NOBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO STOP YOU FROM SAYING THINGS” is almost specifically to protect things that are unpopular or may offend people. these bitches are out of line in the worst fucking way.. shit has to stop  (21 Thumbs ups!)

Pluto Nash                1 day ago             

The only reason feminists are so angry is because they are all hideous and no one wants to fuck them.

Jshect                1 day ago             

Oh my gosh, pause the video at 4:27 and read the whole harrassment policy. If you showed that to someone and didn’t tell them what event it was for they would think it was a meeting of sex crazed, delinquint, ex-convicts not a free thought rally. I don’t think the words free thought conference and sexualized environmnet quite belong in the same paragraph. This isn’t a XXX porn convention. This is a meeting of mostly highly educated civilized people. Femanazi go away!!

Above comments from YouTube “Why “Feminism” is poisoning the skeptical community”. Part 1 by Thunderf00t

These comments address the people who bring up harassment policies or feminism with ridicule rather than a counter argument. The commenters haven’t done their homework on harassment issues, and dismiss the person making the argument instead.

The fallacies I have listed are in no way a complete list of all of the fallacious reasoning that is used to deny that sexism or harassment occurs in the skeptical community or the discussion of harassment policies.  I am sure other veterans of this argument can come up with other easily identifiable fallacies that prevent the actual topic from being discussed meaningfully in a lot of our community’s forums. To the credit of most of our community’s organizers, they have adopted reasonable harassment policies and codes of conduct.  A few of the points in these have sparked disagreement, because most skeptics thrive on questioning things.  Disagreement is not the problem in and of itself except if there is fallacious reasoning or tactics at the heart of it.

The same fallacies have been parroted in this argument so many times that parodies or Poes are starting to enter the discussions. Trigger warnings for offensive language apply…

Bardlettt                5 hours ago             

LOL whatever, mangina. You’re just trying to limit my free speech against these whores like Rebecca Watson because you’re pussy whipped! Get out of our atheism, bitch!


Bardlettt                6 hours ago             

Yeah, I agree TF! All these nigger and kike whores trying to turn our conferences into their liberal bullshit orgies. WE NEED TO SPEAK OUT AND STOP THEM! Fake jewelry? Is that really in an official conference harassment policy? We must demonstrate before these fucking stupid, non secular sluts take over our atheism! GO TF!

Above comments from YouTube “Why “Feminism” is poisoning the skeptical community”. Part 2 by Thunderf00t

Even though these comments are anonymous YouTube users for the most part, these sentiments have been echoed by others in other forums.  I have left out fallacious comments from known skeptics and atheists on purpose, so as to not get bogged down in personal bickering.  So that no one assumes that these are not representative of the discussion of Thunderf00t’s video, many of the comments chosen have been thumbed up at least 20 times.  Also, this is the top comment the very hour that I am posting this…

John E 5 hours ago

The only females (or males) who can’t cope with the grab-ass and flirty games that go on amongst men and women, and deal with it in a sensible proportionate manner, are children. Seriously, why is this shit a massive issue in America? In my home country, and my current country of residence, nobody gives a fuck, because there’s nothing to give a fuck about. From an outside view it just looks pathetic, and I understand TF’s frustration.

Can you spot several easily identifiable logical fallacies?
For anyone reading this, who disagrees that sexism is still an issue for some in our communities or even that simply harassment policies are wrong, I want to leave you with a challenge.  I recently challenged a friend who is a prominent atheist in the discussion with this as well.  Do you really want to be arguing for the status quo of boys will be boys or people should be thicker skinned to sexist comments, or any other of the dodges we have been taught to ignore sexism? As atheism grows we are becoming more diverse, and these conflicts will arise where traditionally held ideas come in to contact with progressive ideas.My position on harassment policies has evolved over time through discussion. Even though I have personally never been harassed at a conference, why should I be laissez faire or dismiss other people’s genuine feeling of discomfort or genuine abuse? Why should you? And one final thought just like progress in science is most often not achieved by defending the status quo, why be a roadblock to progress?

What to do about America’s guns…

Tonight on Dogma Debate, David Smally and I will argue opposing views of the gun control issue with disarmed Britons, Thunderf00t and DPR Jones. 

UTS-15 tactical shotgun

I need these two in case of … you know… zombies.

Frankish bearded axe

I need one of these too, but they’re illegal to carry, because if you have one of these, then people think you’re a dangerous psycho.


Recently I was contacted by one Yanir Tearosh representing the Israeli Atheist Association.  I was surprised to hear there was such a thing.  More amazing than that, they’re actually holding an atheist convention in Tel Aviv.  I wouldn’t have thought that possible.  But it is apparently a thing, and his organization has asked me and target=”_blank”>GrapplingIgnorance to promote it.  Here is Yanir’s pitch:

I would also like to explain The reason we do this (also known as  – my extremely long rant )

Israel is a democracy – a good one! but…
More than 10% of Israelis are orthodox Jews and another 20% are Arabs (most of them are believers).
the rest of the population are Jewish believers of all kinds.
There is a big confusion about the topic of  – is Judaism a religion or a nationality.
This confusion make many Israelis vote for pro – religious laws
(just like the claim in the us that it was founded on christian values – only with less pork).

In Israel we have more than 1 education system.
most of the first graders this year will attend the religious schools and not the secular.
until 2050 the orthodox Jews will be a majority.
They already have a lot of power in the government.
In the past few years we saw a rise of religious oppression – one examples is the approval of buses with *gender separation* in the religious neighborhoods.
put aside the fact that this is anti democratic, there are many secular people on the bus rout.
Also secular Jews here have to have a religious marriage ceremony – have to!
If you don’t want to do it  – you have to travel abroad and get married there.
Secular Jews have to join the army – orthodox Jews don’t. All they have to do is study the holy books and they get a free pass from service.
(we fight for them – they actually pray for us)
And…They get paid from that state for doing so – unlike a physics student that have to pay to study.

And that is not the biggest problem.
The movement name religious nationalists are even bigger than the orthodox sector.
They are less “weird” looking and bled in very well – but – they are the hardcore sector – militant.
You probably heard about the settlers – most of them are religious nationalists.
They want to rebuild “ Judea” from the sea to the river
(that includes sini desert, Jordan, and the Palestinian territories).
Off course not all of them are like that – but the ones in power are.

In the next Knesset (the Israeli house of representative) we will probably have about 25% openly religious people  – now its about 10% (from 120 seats).

Israel is a democracy – a good one! but…will it stay like that for long?

Thanks again for helping

This event occurs next week on January 10th.  I found out about it while on a holiday vacation with the family.   So I didn’t have a lot of time to make a decent ad, not if I need to give at least a week’s notice before-hand.  So here it is:

Here is their website and their facebook,

and these are their four main speakers:


Professor Menachem Fisch
One of the leading researchers in the world of philosophy of science. Formerly the head of the Israeli interfaith school, the head of the Tel Aviv University philosophy faculty, head of the Israeli cathedral for the study of the philosophy of science and one of the editors of the HOPOS academic journal. Member of the Israeli academy of science, authors of several books concerning Judaism, Philosophy, Science and History. Considered one of the top ten best speakers in Israeli academia.


Professor Yoel Rak
One of the world leaders in the field of human evolution. Member of the Anatomic labs in the Tel Aviv University’s Medicine department. Head of the Israeli cathedral for the study of aging. Member of several paleontological expedition to Africa. Expert in the field of human digestion and the evolution of the humanoid skull. Head of the Anatomic studies department in the faculty, and is one of the top ten best speakers in Tel Aviv University.


Professor Maya Bar-Hillel
An expert in the field of logic, paradox and rational thought. Member of the Hebrew University’s institute for rationality. Offered a solution to the Newcomb’s paradox, and disapproved the theories that promoted the bible numerical code. Works on disapproving common myths, such as graphology.


Professor Yaakov Malkin
Author of over twenty books, Malkin is an art critic, researcher, atheist and historian. Established the Tel Aviv University cinematography faculty and Tmora, the Israeli institute for the teaching of secular rabbi’s. Wrote several of the leading articles, magazines and books concerning the topic of humanism and Judaism and a trend setter in secular Israeli thoughts.


The Israeli Atheist Association neglected to provide me with a plane ticket to Tel Aviv, (probably because I can’t tell Hebrew from Yiddish) so someone who knows the language will hopefully report back to let me know what I missed.

the “Merry Christmas” bill

As the Texas state director of American Atheists, I am concerned about Dwayne Bohac and his “Merry Christmas” bill, the one encouraging teachers to reveal their particular religious beliefs before students and faculty. While those with the most popular majority religion in this region could use this to earn brownie points with some parents and co-workers, those in the minority position would effectively be ‘outed’ one way or another; whether they chose to participate or whether they chose not to.  We know by experience and example that there are many administrators in this state who will discriminate against non-Christian teachers on the basis of religion -especially if you don’t have any religion at all. It isn’t just mangers and menorahs. Even if it were, there is still a lot of anti-Semitism in this state, and no point in inciting cultural conflicts in the classroom. Would this include Chinese New Year?  How about Hindu teachers daring to promote Diwali amid all the Halloween decorations?

Bohac unabashedly practicing pagan rituals at the state capitol.

The only reason Bohac wants to pass this bill is to force people to give special recognition to his own religious beliefs with state endorsement. He claims to take offense at calling it a “holiday” tree; he wants everyone to call it a ‘Christmas’ tree. That’s not the problem.  In the eyes of pagans or atheists, Christians erecting ‘Christmas’ trees only highlights their hypocrisy, since the Bible forbids such practice in Jeremiah 10:2-4. No, the problem is that it would marginalize non-Christian students even more than they already are.  It also forces teachers to reveal what may in many cases be privately-held beliefs which should not be scrutinized by principles, pupils, or the PTA.

There aren’t many atheist teachers who are bold enough to celebrate the solstice along with everyone else, and it would be wrong to politicize the classroom by doing so.  Most atheist teachers -at least here in Texas- are cautious not to reveal what it is they don’t believe, and believers consider it a violation of their own rights just to hear *why* we don’t believe.

This bill fails all three prongs of the ‘lemon test’ (Lemon v. Kurtzman).  It has no secular legislative purpose.  It will not only advance the already dominant religion in this country, but will also invariably inhibit less-popular faiths, and it will certainly result in “excessive government entanglement” with religion. It’s not like Muslim teachers will be welcome promoting Ramadan in the classroom. Wiccan teachers will only attract criticism by celebrating Yule or Saturnalia with all the traditional symbols which were originally pagan -including the manger scene (thank you, Horus), and which were later appropriated by Christianity. In other words, it was never a Christmas tree to begin with, and there is no defensible reason to back this bill.