Compensating for Something

I was working on a response to a mailed in article from AVfM when I saw this catch my eye.

And here is the thing. People LOVE to think feminism is about objectifying men. It’s not. AVfM has fallen down (yet again) into the trap of thinking that women somehow demand massive wangs because of feminism. Kristina Hansen has straight got it wrong on a lot of bits but she starts off strong. [Read more…]

Dear Camille Marino, You are a horrible animal and a horrible person

Dear Camille Marino

I officially declare victory. You have shown your true colours as a human being, and I am embarrassed to share the same species as you. Your attitude to humanity is toxic and you aren’t a revolutionary but a terrorist and a hypocrite. Feeding of our progress only to condemn it.

“as is quite obvious, i have no time or energy to waste on you and the self-serving oblivion from where your disjointed ramblings emanate.
however, in this one instance, i will take the time to address you with civility and sincerity.”
Sometimes poor decisions in life manifest themselves in
questionable tattoos before they manifest in
errors in philosophy.

You say that you have no time to waste on me, but I say this is because as I am a harder target to deal with than the students you normally terrorise. I defend my field far better than you attack it. I have stated that there is no better way at the moment than animal testing for all it’s flaws. You wish it to be stopped but haven’t provided a single alternative instead hiding behind rhetoric and good old fashioned anger. You don’t answer you deflect the question with threats of violence and property damage like your hero, Walter Edmund Bond.

You aren’t educating anyone, you are threatening. You leave the teachers because they can defend themselves against your clumsy jabs. You leave out the grad students because they would simply rip your arguments to shreds. Instead you target first year undergraduates fresh out of high school simply because they are incapable of defending themselves and because you can drum up support from the non scientific community around them who fail to realise where their lifestyles come from the hard work of others and that without those biologists many of their lifestyles are completely unfeasible.

You have offered civility but it is impossible to be civil with a terrorist. You may as well ask us to be civil with Osama but frankly madam you are a grade A lunatic. I was civil as my posts repeatedly explain medical experimentation. I knew very well that you will not listen to them. You are no different from the creationist, the religious fundamentalist or any merchant of pseudoscience. No explanation I will give will suffice until the day you require our help and every single word you have stated against my field is proven wrong.

While you may wish for our deaths or injuries to save animals we don’t wish for yours. We won’t refuse you treatment no matter what you have said or done to us. That’s because we take our oaths to human beings very seriously.

Apparently you survived inspite of this rather than
because of this. Man apparently we should just
not have ICUs.

“i died in a motorcycle accident in 1993. i was resuscitated yet remained comatose for the better part of a month. when i finally regained consciousness, i was a complete quadriplegic — unable to move a pinky or a toe. i was unable to speak or see, and every involuntary motor function was dependent on machines and round the clock nurses to intercede with tubes to do everything from breathe for me to feed me. i was 28 years old and wholly unable to communicate. but my mind remained intact as i listened to the plans being made to have me live out the remainder of my life in an institution. 

i was confined to a bed for three solid months, imprisoned in my own body for far longer, and didn’t even begin to walk again for an entire year. i lived with people in every state of injury, sickness, and debilitation. i have NEVER met a single person in a truly desperate and dire situation who would not rather volunteer themselves for experimental treatments than wait decades for some pseudo-scientist to continue to torture innocent animals pretending to be on the verge of some earth-shattering breakthrough for mankind”

The man has achieved more with his brain and a single
finger than we have with our health. Also he has
an amazing sense of humour.

Your story begs questions. A quadriplegic is an individual with a complete trans-section of the spinal cord resulting in a loss of motor function. One tends to not be cured of this condition, not without a magic in any case. To this date no quadriplegics have ever regained function to the point where they are walking around and threatening biologists and doctors. Christopher Reeves and Stephen Hawkings are quadriplegics. You are and were not. If you were and were cured by science then we would be throwing parades for your doctors and Stephen Hawkings would be on Strictly Come Dancing learning the Riverdance and possibly picking up a rap career as E=MC Hawkings. Hell Christopher Reeves would have starred in Superman Returns rather than having died so tragically while hoping for a cure while confined to either a bed or a wheelchair.

“i was confined to a bed for three solid months, imprisoned in my own body for far longer, and didn’t even begin to walk again for an entire year. i lived with people in every state of injury, sickness, and debilitation. i have NEVER met a single person in a truly desperate and dire situation who would not rather volunteer themselves for experimental treatments than wait decades for some pseudo-scientist to continue to torture innocent animals pretending to be on the verge of some earth-shattering breakthrough for mankind”

Shenanigans has been called!

You may have been in a coma, but my biggest doubt comes from the fact that you seem to have made a full recovery from it with no ill effect. I have an uncle who had a 3 week coma and that ended up with him being spastic (the medical kind) and unable to walk or talk properly. Any injury strong enough to place you in a 3 month coma is strong enough to really scramble your brain. I am calling shenanigans on this. SHENANIGANS!

You have shown a distinct lack of understanding of how animal experimentation functions. We test animals to destruction. We cut them open to see how they work, we make things go wrong on purpose to see how they go wrong and we see if we can fix the things that have gone wrong. We test to destruction to find out mechanisms of things and how they work. If it works we don’t simply say “well done mouse”, we dissect it to see how it worked and it’s mechanisms. If we think a gene produces a specific protein, we knock out that gene and see if the animal produces the protein with or without the gene. As we do this we slowly build up a picture and we find out how proteins are formed which relates to a condition. It’s absolutely necessary because medical research doesn’t take place like in CSI or a science fiction lab. The TV portrayal of research is simply not true. The TV portrayal of nerds especially is kind of irritating too, most of us aren’t like the cast of the big bang. 

If we are experimenting with a disease we also have to kill the animal to see how disease affects various organs as most animals are intrinsically attached to them. We simply cannot infect people with diseases and then take kidneys and lungs, livers and spleens out without killing the person.
For instance all drugs that are tested on the brain have to have brain chemistry analysed and the way that is done is to actually kill the animal and take sections of the brain before the activity has stopped. I am sure guillotining a human to take sections of their brain will not have too many volunteers. Atleast not in the quantity we require for research.

We often study the physiology of animals and the pathology of various diseases. How would we study blindness in children? It would require knowing which kids are blind beforehand which is impossible as we aren’t mind readers and it’s difficult to diagnose blindness in infants. Or it would involve blinding some kittens and seeing how their optical cortex develops through cutting open their brains at various stages of development. It’s easier to do that then “blind some children” because “children are people”, cats are not. It’s easier to simply suture a kitten’s eyes shut and then observe the atrophy of the cortex than do so to infants (kittens are born blind).

Then the research was done to see if we could reverse the atrophy. To give sight to the blind and sound to the deaf since it turns out that lack of stimulus is one of the issues leading to cochlear implantation aimed at babies.

The research in question has been used to treat congenital blindness providing sight to children born blind. It’s also been used to detect hearing losses and correct that via cochlear implantation at a young age. It’s incredibly life changing procedures that mean children that are born deaf and blind can hear and see.
No parent would volunteer their child to be blinded or deafened for this research. No parent of a blind or a deaf child would volunteer their child to be dissected for this. There is no other choice but animal experimentation. In most animal experiments a similar dilemma is faced. However most parents would volunteer their blind or deaf child to receive the treatment we come up with from this experiment with the warning that the treatment is experimental and we don’t know if it would work or not. Remember half the people who sign on for the experiment won’t have the treatment as a control to see the placebo effect. Statistics are compiled meticulously at every stage to show efficiency and effect before this treatment is okayed for general usage.
“the reason you do not experiment on people who would gladly volunteer themselves is because some speciesist human has decided that it is unethical and the NIH only funds animal torture. so human experimentation would not be nearly as lucrative.”

Under the sea! Under the sea! Down were it’s wetter
here it is better take it from me! 

Naturally, you don’t care about these people. To you the kittens are more valuable than the people it saves. The NIH does fund human experimentation but only after we figure out how things work in animals because it’s illegal to kill people solely to find out how things work because it’s against human law and it’s also highly unethical. We execute people who do these things, and the name Josef Mengele springs to mind. Yes it is “speciest” but frankly if given sufficient incentive you would eat meat. And it’s no more or less speciest about your follower’s consumption of plant and fungal life or their abhorrence of certain kinds of animal life. I mean clean drinking water is practically the death of billions of organisms but you don’t seem to mind their deaths.

It stems from the idea that we like fluffy animals. No one is standing up and defending hagfish or lampreys (nor should they! Lampreys are a pest in some parts of the Great Lakes.), no one is suggesting we leave the cockroaches and rats that plague our cities alone, because rat infestations do not end well for human beings. But a lab rat is a fluffy animal. It’s white for heaven’s sake! As are guinea pigs, but it’s hard to stand up for sea urchins or drosophila or c. elegans. The latest drive to denounce medical research in the UK is by attacking the British Heart Foundation’s Mending Broken Hearts campaign. The BHF’s actual adverts are to encourage people to realise that there is real progress in the field. Animal liberation’s attitude is that this progress is selfish because humans want to live in the place of a few fish. It’s easy to say that when you aren’t dying of a heart issue yourself. Wanting to live is not selfish, it’s human. Nihilism does not suit as a species and humans are addicted to life. It’s why we value volunteering and sacrifice so much. 

“now i want you to understand me and understand me good. the only reason i am a high-functioning individual once again is because NO disinterested medical “professional” with a god complex has the power to dictate my future. i didn’t care what they said or thought then, and i don’t care what delusional nonsense any of you spout now. you are all irrelevant blood-money sadistic opportunists and merit no consideration for your educated guessing or illogical rationalizations.”

I take it back, 3 months of coma may have affected you in some other more subtle way. You aren’t a high functioning individual, you are kind of an insane and dangerous person. And if your story is even remotely true then you are a high functioning individual because doctors and nurses used medical technology developed on animals to ensure you stayed alive after your motorcycle accident. Your future was dictated by medical professionals despite what you think .

The fact remains that our illogical rationalisation and educated guessing saved your life. You are alive to sprout your luddite nonsense at us because of us. It’s not delusional, this is the truth by your own admission that doctors saved your life (even if I think it’s not possible to recover from quadriplegia and that you are making stuff up or are misrepresenting a more serious condition.).

“and, btw, if i were ever to meet a quadriplegic who would rather volunteer an innocent animal to suffer than volunteer themselves, i would personally throw them out of their wheelchair, kick their arroganct speciesist ass into the gutter, and film them as they lay there helpless in the sewers like the waste of humanity that they are.
then i would upload the video to nio and eat carrot chips with humus as i enjoyed watching them die a slow and torturous death over and over and over again.”

I actually have posted Camille’s words here because I am sure she will delete or try to change them. She tried to weasel out of her actual threats against medical and biology students when she first came to my attention but this is stored for posterity. I Avicenna, hereby declare that these words are the true testament of Camille Marino, owner of Negotiation is Over.

This is a threat, an actual one against someone disabled who wants a cure. It shows what kind of person you are. A bad one. An embarrassment to humanity as a whole.

Even if you injured yourself killing a quadriplegic in such a manner I would save your life. Then I would send you to jail for being a criminal. I may be a an arrogant human-centric blood profiteer with a god complex but I  have the grace to know the difference between right and wrong. You however are wrong.

Take a look around you. Almost every single person here is here because of medical technology and training developed on animals (How many of us were born in hospitals or were delivered by trained medical professionals?).

“now, please don’t bother me again.

you know nothing. you are a sadistic piece of arrogant shit. and you annoy me.


I maybe those things but I am not the one who hypocritically took advantage of medical science to live while simultaneously mocking those advancements. I am not the one who bandies my IQ as some sort of power level nor have I stated that I am a high functioning individual. I am not the one who has threatened to kill quadriplegics should they utilise medical treatment developed through experimentation.

You don’t annoy me, you scare me. That there are people out there who have to deal with your nonsense in person.

Your’s Sincerely,

Avicenna (esq.)

One of these things is a toothy parasite spreading ill
health and disease while feeding of more productive
and healthy members of society.
The other is a lovecraftian horror that lives in the sea.

Animal Liberation – The forgotten war between science and ignorance

Crazy Death Threats against students

The animal liberation movement ranges across the spectrum of common sense from scientists to laughable ideas of ecology such as the people who outright ban certain kinds of hunting solely because the animal is cute rather than the actual effect of said animal on the environment to the utterly deadly.

For most of us the idea of animal liberation is a rather genteel idea. Save the cute animals. We revel in the childish idea that foxes are adorable and that bunnies are cute despite the reality that foxes kill livestock and bunnies are vermin that eat tonnes of produce and breed at alarming rates. You don’t see the animal lib movement worry about the rabbit and cane toad problem of Australia. 

The sinister side of the movement lies in its extremists. These are people who equate human life of the same value as any other species of animal and justify murder and harassment of individuals. One such individual is Camille Marino. I assume this is a pseudonym, as calling for the attack of specific people with actual plans as laid out here really should trigger various alarm bells. Particularly when any of us could be in their arbitrary firing line.

Let’s not kid ourselves. Animal rights are important, we need to treat animals with respect where appropriate. I am against the usage of animals for testing non pharmaceuticals unless where appropriate (You really need to test insecticides for toxicity unless you want dead humans and a lot more dead animals). If there were a way to test medication without killing anything for the same (or probably cheaper) price then we would do it. However we don’t have another feasible option, and we are researching into alternatives because whoever discovers a viable alternative makes “bank”.

However now we have calls from individuals to target the most exposed aspect of biology and medicine. The students.

The vivisection complex must be dismantled and we will realize this objective only through mass concerted efforts that abandon staid and ineffective traditional tactics (lobbying, educating, debating, etc) to instead pursue abolition by any means necessary and put the vivisection industry and Big Pharma under the knife. Each and every avenue through which we may gain a foothold needs to be explored and pursued if we are to advance our agenda.”

It should be dismantled by providing us an equal or better method for testing. The traditional tactics don’t work because they are baseless. PETA’s arguments range from the idiotic Sea Kittens project to just having no clue how medical experimentation works because quite frankly they have no idea how medication works. We cannot talk to you guys because you are fanatics and kind of dumb. You show incredible lack of understandings in biology and assume we enjoy injuring animals.

The people being targeted are the strongest voices for ecology and protection of species and the ones best equipped to do so. Species like the Californian condor were not saved by burning labs but by biologists using techniques they learnt experimenting on other creatures to raise and release condors.

For the obscene profits of the pharmaceutical industries and the disease management (not “health care”) system, every year in university labs, private research facilities, and military dungeons, millions of animals are being sliced, diced, poisoned, infected, and hideously mutilated without remorse.”

We do have remorse for our testing. We really do love animals and do wish we had to use less for our research, infact we are using less. The problem is you do need to test on an animal because it is a living coalition of systems rather than just a patch of cells. Interaction between the various systems is what we worry about.

The fact is that human society is reliant on the death of animals for our benefit. Just like every other animal is reliant on competitive deaths of other animals. Does the ALF really think that the food they eat has not been grown without the murder of innocent creatures?

And we slice, dice, poison, infect and mutilate animals for a reason. To either educate people about biology without having to do the same to a human being (Sorry kids. Models just do not cut it. I can show you a model liver and 10 real ones and the model will not look the same.). You can see as many models as you want but they only give you a rough idea of what living anatomy is like. Again we test drugs on animals because life is a complex interplay of chemicals and artificial methods simply do not model the interactions between chemicals sufficiently and with adequate safety. 

It seems illogical to think poison has a benefit but you are forgetting that in disease there is an imbalance within the body. A poison causing an opposite effect can produce a homeostatic effect alleviating
a disease. Even the simplest of over the counter medications can produce side effects from toxicity. This is the actual principle of medicine. The alternative medicine work on magic principles and woo. In most cases medication gives us either time to heal or a helping hand. In order to find out exact dosages and calculate effects and indeed develop a drug it needs to be tested on animals.

Every time a vivisector’s car or home — and, eventually, the abuser him/herself — blows up, flames of liberation light up the sky. And now we have a golden opportunity to begin to destroy the foundations upon which Bogus Big Pharma and the academic-industrial complex rest — the vivisection research model can be made unworkable and obsolete. A strategic and streamlined above-ground resistance advanced in coordination with that of our anonymous underground counterparts can yield that elusive point of critical mass at which the infrastructure begins to implode and the grant money stolen from taxpayers begins to dry up — the only remnant of the atrocities being the trail of blood from the cages to the incinerator to the parking lot to the vivisectors’ homes, adorned with windows that can be opened and doors with locks that can be picked.”

And thus we see the call for murder. I make no pretence of liking these arseholes. They are calling for the death of scientists for the purpose of their world view which would result in untold deaths by the halting of the medical process. 

I am willing to talk, but not to terrorists and people calling for murder. I am willing to improve our systems but quite frankly if you are making threats about  how our houses are easy to break into and how we can easily be killed in car bombs… then quite frankly we are done talking and you deserve to be treated like criminals.

“When we attack professors, we can only expect limited gains. They are deeply entrenched in the holocaust, have vested financial interests, and enjoy a network of support and protection. Students, however, have no round-the-clock police protection, no access to the FBI, and no access to legislators. The weakest link in the chain is the student body. Vivisectors-in-training can be shut down with relative ease.

They also are the next generation and it is our responsibility to ensure that they are the last generation. Unless we intercede now, the students of today will be the mutilators of tomorrow. Conversely, there will be no animal torturers tomorrow if we effectively eliminate them today.” 

We students are vulnerable to them. We have to routinely attend university while most of these individuals do not. We are poor and cannot afford security; we are easily abducted and so on… They know this. We know this. However if any student is attacked the backlash will be phenomenal. Does anyone really think that attacking a student will achieve anything but the total destruction of the animal liberation movement as terrorists?

We won’t be the last generation of vivisectionists. All you will do is scare off some of us and make the rest of the world sit up to your nonsense. The entire leadership of most of the animal liberation groups would be suspect even the more liberal ones as many are complicit in protecting such movements as even PETA have made similar statements to yours in the past. 

“We recently met an aspiring vivisector named Alena Rodriguez who exposed, perhaps, the greatest industry vulnerability we’ve yet to isolate — students.”

I feel really sorry for her. Her career in science has been ruined by intimidation and by the use of fear. I am sorry that she was not able to acquire help from the rest of the science community and advice as to what to do when dealing with these individuals. They are genuinely quite determined to ruin lives and when confronted by their tactics, we should bring the full force of the law into play and stand together as a group. This is simply bullying and threats aimed at a person

“By and large, students pursuing careers in research science truly want to help people, not victimize animals. Their indoctrination into the world of laboratory torture is slow, methodical, and deliberate. While they are being groomed, we are obligated to intercede and educate these young scientists with truth. As Alena admitted, “I was naive…I really just did not know about all this stuff.” And she is not unique.”

By intercede and educate they mean threaten and intimidate. Not all of us are so easy to fool with grainy pictures of slaughterhouses. And it’s a case of our society forgetting where food comes from.

Students also need to understand that making the wrong choice will result in a lifetime of grief. Aspiring scientists envision curing cancer at the Mayo Clinic. We need to impart a new vision: car bombs, 24/7 security cameras, embarrassing home demonstrations, threats, injuries, and fear. And, of course, these students need to realize that any personal risk they are willing to assume will also be visited upon
their parents, children, and nearest & dearest loved ones. The time to reconsider is now.”

Not only are we threatened but they also threaten innocent bystanders. Why should we bend to the will of terrorists and bullies? Why should we even negotiate? If you threaten the students, big pharma will simply leave your nations and go test in other countries where there is no oversight. The research will not stop but the local students will suffer. So make a stand now, no one is calling for the torture of animals. Torture exists solely for the sake of torture, there is purpose to animal experimentation and the understanding of that is out of the grasp of the animal right’s movement. 

“Like all young adults, college students are acutely concerned with how they are perceived by their peers. They need to maintain a certain persona if they wish to continue to enjoy the acceptance of their community. This makes them infinitely more susceptible to negative and inflammatory publicity than their veteran-mutilator counterparts. When education fails, smear campaigns can be highly effective. Abusers have forfeited all rights to privacy and peace of mind and, if an abuser-to-be should fail to make the correct choice now, NIO is here to broadcast all of their personal information. Remember, young people document every facet of their personal lives online. In about 30 minutes, we were able to compile an impressive and comprehensive profile for Elena.”

The curse of facebook, oh not only does the average student have to face down interviewers who can Google us and find photos of us at our worst (dressed in drag and attempting to drink a yard of ale possibly) but now we have to deal with the threat of our information being leaked to potential terrorists who will encourage us to be targeted.

“We need to begin to actively identify those enrolled in scientific disciplines and isolate the students preparing for or involved in biological research. We need to get into the universities and speak to classes. This poses a minor, but not insurmountable, obstacle for many activists that have been trespassed, banned, or TROed. We need to team up with other aggressive campaigners who excel at engaging and educating. We need to implement a “good cop, bad cop” approach to keep our targets off balance and maximize our effectiveness.” 

There is no good cop/bad cop here, there is only a collection of insane individuals whose ideology is so bankrupt that they equate the life of a human to that of a rabbit or a mouse under the guise of compassion willing to damn thousands of lives worth of medical research in exchange for a few mice who wouldn’t survive outside of a lab environment. We extend compassion to animals out of compassion. We want our animals to be treated better solely because we can afford to do so because we are so abundant in resources, however if it came to starvation… then most of us would happily eat meat. I have seen people eating maggotty rice soley because the choices are “eat maggots” or “starve”. When the chips are down, humans will do anything to survive. Society exists because we can afford to maintain it at this point.

We experiment on animals because we have no other options. Not experimenting on animals means either releasing untested drugs on people which no one will want causing untold deaths. There are no computer models or in vitro techniques despite what we are told that can match an entire animal for cost as well. This is the best option that we have. And what the animal liberation movement does not understand is that we would rather not have to hurt animals to do research but are left with no choice since there are no other alternatives. I assure you, medicine does work and that the idea that we don’t cure anything is utterly daft. We do cure a lot of diseases, including cancer which seems to be the catchword of choice for incurable diseases (not AIDS? Daft buggers really!)

Camille Marino is nothing but a terrorist or atleast someone who sympathises with them. She/He/It is a douche, possibly the biggest douche in the universe. If there were an award I would nominate her to get it.

We have been threatened by her/him/it with death for the experimentation of animals rather than sensible discourse. Instead of providing us options we have been left with the choice of submit or perish. The threat is to all of us in any biological field. We have all done animal experiments of some sort or the other. We are all in their firing lines. 

I don’t think I will give up, will you?