Ladies beware! PETA has some SHCOCKING news for you.
I will be serious! [Read more…]
I hope you aren’t clicking on that link I put up earlier.
Games have gone hand in hand with propaganda over the years. A propaganda game is a game with an “ulterior motive” and sponsored by someone who wishes to be seen in a good light. Some of it is “pretty lame” like the various “games” that North Korea has demonstrated. Some of it’s pretty smart, like America’s Army.
America’s Army was a smart propaganda game because it tried to portray the life of a soldier in a more positive and realistic light. It was a purpose driven propaganda game rather than say… Call of Duty – Modern Warfare who’s propaganda was just a product of the time we live in and the audience it was aimed at. [Read more…]
One of the first groups of people I tangled with when I started my blog were the lovely folk at Negotiation is Over.
And it’s where one of my first “readers” found my blog. Because of my support for the biologists and students of biology at the University of Florida and the right to study free from harassment (Yes, that’s the Meowcenary). I never really expected to get this big as a blog and honestly most of the stuff I wrote was mainly because we both just wanted to vent at people who made our lives miserable.
This may not be secular but it is how I started. [Read more…]
I have been accused of a lot of things in the past by animal liberation. It’s usually about me hating on animals.
I do have a dog, his name is Tigger (because when he gets excited he bounces on his hind legs). And I love animals and despite being the abject carnivore that I am do feel we need to improve how we treat them and treat them humanely even when taking them for slaughter (it’s also why I am against Kosher and Halal slaughter if they don’t use a captive bolt gun…)
But when I mocked Camille Marino and her ongoing quest to harass and terrify biology and medical students and the staff of the University of Florida I delved into a world that was genuinely terrifying. It’s why I write under a pseudonym and it’s why I recognise that people like Stephanie, Ophelia, Jennifer, PZ Myers, Natalie and others have taken a massive risk using their real names. That my stance on pseudonyms was well founded due to the harassment they face on a regular basis…
And I received a lot of mail back then about how I was evil. I was threatened with everything from economic sanctions to torture and death. I felt justified by using the pseudonym to keep me and the people I worked with safe.
I also received a lot of mail about how I was fighting for people who often were fighting for animal welfare and better treatment of animals in labs. One of my longest readers is from those arguments.
If you haven’t read it elsewhere then read it from here. PETA are often accused of killing the vast majority of animals they “rescue”, a reader sent me this link.
It speaks for itself doesn’t it? That for all the whinging about medical research PETA are destroying animals for no reason while portraying themselves as humane alternative.
To the dismay of many of my friends, I’m not unalterably opposed to vivisection. In fact, I’d wholeheartedly support it, were vivisectors to make one minor administrative change. It would be that scientists perform the experiments not on nonhumans but on themselves and their colleagues. Scientists keep telling us how beneficial the experiments are for Science with a capital S, Progress with a capital P, and of course Man with a capital M. If the experiments really are Necessary with a capital N, the scientists should be willing to make this sacrifice (with a small s) for the greater good. In any case, because of strict regulations, according to no less an authority than Lord Sainsbury, British Science Minister, advocate of genetic engineering and owner of a very large supermarket chain, experiments generally cause no more than “moderate” suffering. If this is actually true, scientists shouldn’t too much mind throwing their hats into this ring.
Here is the thing. Scientists experiment on each other all the time. In fact many scientists have WILLINGLY infected themselves with diseases and tried to cure themselves, but are also tempered with the understanding that human life is more valuable than animal life. No one thinks otherwise apart from the animal liberation movement and even then they follow their own apartheid of animal segregation segregation and actively distinguish between the different levels of animal (I am sure they would have no qualms about poisoning or indeed starving rats and the various other rodents that would otherwise eat us out of our farmed food.).
The corollary of this premise is to suggest that the Animal Liberation movement merely refused to use any technology developed through the usage of an animal experiment. (I will point out that this includes seatbelts which were tested on pigs). Because Progress, Science and Man obviously aren’t as important as the animals that died for it and so you shouldn’t use them.
Oh and Lord Sainsbury is a life peer and is a NAMESAKE of the Sainsbury Supermarket group. He isn’t a “British Science Minister” since he is an unelected peer of the House of LORDS (not Commons who are the ministers). And there are currently two of them.
The majority of animals used in research that die are things like Caenorhabditis Elegans and Drosophila Melanogaster. Most lab animals are actually way too expensive to be killed in such quantities. C. Elegans is a nematode and Drosophila is a fruit fly. Other creatures used include invertebrates, frogs and fish which are cheap, simple and easily replaced. And most scientists earn pretty small salaries. What this fine gentleman is trying to do is to make you assume that scientists cannot achieve orgasm without the death of a giant panda rather than the reality of biological research where most of the animals used are ones you would probably kill off hand and are probably butchered in greater quantities in order to maintain our food supply.
I probably kill more nematodes and encourage more invertebrate death than any scientist. And my tools are the ever so lethal metronidazole. Well lethal to intestinal parasites in humans. Now if we are to accept that there is no apartheid of animals and that the life of all animals are the same then why should I doom hundreds of roundworms, thousands of hook worms and millions of malarial parasites to death for the life of just one human being? Why should you kill mosquitoes to stop the spread of Malaria, Dengue, Chikunguny and Filariasis? Why should you control Leishmaniasis and Yellow Fever by killing the vector? Surely they have as much rights as you to survive right? If a mouse is the same as a human then why isn’t a mosquito? If you prick it does it not bleed? If it pricks me, I certainly do!
We don’t experiment on people unless they willingly chose to be experimented on because we have gone down that route in the past and don’t wish to do so again. The fact animal liberation activists routinely bring this up as a solution either speaks of people who ONLY speak in Rhetoric meaning that they have absolutely no fucking answers to the problem of animal experimentation (AKA even we don’t like experimenting on animals and would be THRILLED if we didn’t have to in order to progress biology and medicine. However by nature, biology REQUIRES animal experimentation otherwise we would have no progress in biology as a science. It’s like suggesting that you learn electronics without touching electricity.)
The counter argument of rhetoric would be to suggest that “If Animal Lib love animals so much, why don’t they volunteer for experimentation?”.
rst I toyed with the notion of putting vivisectors’ families on the short list, but decided to keep them in reserve in case they’re needed to provide “spare parts,” as the xenotransplantation literature so elegantly puts it, for those humans rich enough to afford their own personal organ donors. The use of vivisectors’ families should eradicate the technical and moral problems caused by the current planned use of pigs, and should also bring in some extra cash for the corporations that hire the vivisectors (and that’s always been the real point, hasn’t it?): some estimates put the market for pig organs to transplant into humans at $6 billion per year, just in the United States.
Either this is rhetoric which just proves that the NIO and indeed the original poster are paint eatingly stupid, or this is someone who thinks that xenotransplantation is widespread and indeed done for frivolous reasons.
The primary reason for research into xeno-transplantation is for hearts. A pig heart is the same size as a human one. If you can make pigs have the same tissue type as a human you can GROW a human heart in a matter of months. The other use is the usage of their heart valves as a superior replacement to those who have lost theirs. This can range from individuals who have congenital anomalies to those who fell ill. I personally know of a young girl with a heart valve replacement who has a new lease on life (she couldn’t even sit up without fainting and now she is running around and playing) due to mismanagement of her condition by a series of quacks and anti-medical luddites. The biological heart valve means that you don’t have to take blood thinners for the rest of your life unlike the mechanical valve.
Only an arsehole would think that there is no moral and technical problem with using organs taken from a human being against their will causing the death of an individual human being is appropriate in ANY situation. For those rich enough does no justice to the nature of disease and to those who need organs.
The donation of an organ is one of the purest expressions of human kindness. It is the voluntary cessation of the life of a loved one who is dying or whose brain has died so that a complete stranger can live longer by using their organs. At it’s simplest form it is a blood transfusion. At it’s greatest it is life itself. In India due to the shortage of blood donations due to the massive demand I have seen parents fall at the feet of those who gave blood to save their children or loved ones. And only an arsehole would turn such a powerful act of humanity into one of absolute fuckwittery.
Humans Donate Organs Because of Love. Because someone feels empathy for another. And despite that, 60% of people on organ transplant lists die waiting for a match. Xenotransplantation will save a lot of people’s lives. Oh and I want to be an organ donor. I have explicitly stated that. I donate blood, but when I die I hope that my organs will help someone one of the 40% who do get to live.
Ah yes! Medical Ludditery at it’s finest! The OP thinks we only do those things to Dogs and Pigs!
We don’t feed “Agrochemicals” and “Drano” to animals. I believe the research done is mainly to find out how to deal with poisons. These are two of the most common household suicidal poisons and knowing how to treat them is vital. And such testing does not take place anymore because we know how to treat it. This is meant to create the image that we are pouring chemicals down dogs throats while they gag for fun.
These are things we do to humans too to help them. I can think of a reason to paralyse a human for the rest of their forseeable life. It’s often used as a form of palliative care f
or those in terminal pain. Most medical research that succeeds is applied to human beings.
And this is a fantastic strawman. There is a tonne of amazing research done into animals and the problem is that this absolutely stunning example of a complete wanker has no idea about the value of that because he personally is a lucky fucker who doesn’t need that research.
Can you think of one fucking reason we should experiment with HIV and AIDS in animals? Oh right! To find a cure so we can treat HIV and AIDS and not be wankers!
Viagra was tested as a blood pressure medication. Medication that lets you live well past your sixties and into your 70s and 80s to the point where we are beginning to consider the 70s as a period of active life. Medication that lets those who cannot maintain an erection to have one. It sounds like something to laugh about but you know what? It’s laughing at someone who cannot partake of one of the actual pleasures of life. Not all of us can get an erection by imagining the torture of human beings. Some of us need Viagra.
And majority of the animals used in medical tests are not sacrificed. Good grief! They are expensive. Those that are “killed” are done so because there is no alternative. But our research animals give us something that we could never as a species have achieved otherwise. We might be at the top of the food chain but we’ve only come as far as we have because of them. They gave their lives, a good portion in some degree of pain or discomfort or sad so that we could improve ours. A lot of what we have is due to them and for the most part they are treated extremely well. Often recieving care that is unavailable to them as pets. It sounds arrogant to say humans are more valuable than animals but it is the truth and we know that. It’s just that animal liberation mean that cute animals are as valuable as humans.
This isn’t the first or the last time that Camille and the NIO have posted such graphic ideas with little grasp of the reality of animal research. It’s the actual problem with animal liberation is that this sort of research only exists in the minds of the animal liberation fanatic.
But as I said. I kill more animals than many so called vivisectionists do in an entire country. Roundworm, Hookworm, Malarial Parasites, Trypanosomes, Tapeworms, Filarials… The list is endless. What makes their lives less valuable than that of the humans they feast upon?
|Oh bombs! They are so entertaining!
Can’t you see how happy he is!
|It’s pretty much this…|
Dear Stephen Best
I disagree with everything you stand for, you are an odious human being, a chancre on humanity. You stand against everything that is good and right with this world. You bandy a world view that encourages suffering and pain for actual human beings while being safe in a delusion from the suffering and pain you inflict because you yourself don’t get your hands dirty. To me you are no different from those mullahs who fire their devotees up with rhetoric and faith and send these young men to kill and die for their twisted ideology while you remain safe to spread your poison.
Go stand in front of the families of those dying due to disease and tell them that their loved ones deserve to die rather than some animals. Tell them that their children, their brothers and their lovers are less valuable than a mouse in your eyes. You say we are without compassion? I suggest you see how we treat human beings. Pain, Suffering, Starvation, Disability, Poverty are all facts of life for some people, and your philosophy would only increase that. I find it a shocking betrayal of educational ethics that you would be even allowed to lecture at a university for advocating terrorism particularly with your association with Camille Marino who actively threatens students with death.
You are a parasite, no different from Camille and indeed Walter Bond. Individuals who have benefited from modern society which tolerates their nonsense because we are a society filled with excess. I shall assume that like Camille, should you require the aid of “medical care derived from animal experimentation” you too will show the same sort of fortitude and double standards that she has. I shall assume you have never been to a country where there is no concerted effort to keep animals off the streets and keep pest populations down so don’t know what it’s like dealing with rat borne diseases. In short I shall assume (quite rightly so) that you are a privileged hypocrite.
I am not a good man, I never claimed to be. I try my best to do what is right and believe me what is right is standing up for those who you torment and threaten as many of them cannot. Because some of them are my friends, some of them are my family. The others are people who rely on us for a cessation of suffering. Yes, you may slander my character and call me a torturer and hundreds of other things but ultimately the people who I meet tend to not think so.
The ultimate irony is the biggest reduction of use of animals in experimentation is not by the actions of your luddite breed but by the actions of the very people you attack. The biggest protectors of animal life isn’t the placard waving celebrities PETA acquires to flog their viewpoint or terrorists like Walter Bond, but people who know how animals work and who experiment on them and learn.
I would call you vultures but vultures form a useful part of the ecological chain. There is no animal as patently useless as you are. And to prove that I am just as good as rhetoric as you are… Your movement is a disease and you are nothing more than cyst to be lanced with education and understanding. Throughout history men have stood in the way of humanity and progress. All have fallen before education and knowledge. Do you think you are any different from them?
What you need is a Doctor.
(Doctor to be. A real one)
I do seriously wonder what the University of Texas is doing keeping such an individual on their teaching register. Perhaps I can hire Abu Hamza to teach Media Studies.
|Yar har, fiddle di dee,
Being a Terrorist is alright to be,
You should really go on a huge murder spree,
You are a terrorist!
For someone claiming to be a law abiding and peaceful activist, Camille Marino is back to her double standards again.
This time she is suing the University of Florida due to their unwillingness to disclose information which she claims she will use SOLELY for demonstrative purposes.
Except Camille Marino has threatened students in the past. Specifically from the University of Florida and the information requested does carry names of people involved. She has even threatened to assault the disabled should they fail to do as she says rather than do as she does (she utilised medical care developed through animal research to save her own life.)
And she still continues to to host threats against biologists on her site. Look it’s simple, I feel for a lot of things, but death threats will be condemned. Any and all. They show an utter lack of perspective and are a sign of severe privilege that someone can think a mouse has the same value as a human even while being part of a system that harvests food on a scale that requires the death of rodents in order to ensure our grain can feed the population rather than the mice and rats that can plague us.
Her current target of ire is Donal O’Leary who is the Director of Cardiovascular Research at Wayne State University, and her site hosts this lovely little tirade. (It is rather NSFW being a death threat and all but I trust my readers are sensible!)
For starters I do call Camille names but I don’t wish her death even if she is a horrid human being whose sense of perspective is clouded by her extremism resulting in a frankly criminal level of human ignorance. She has a right to live the same as every human on earth, but this little tirade is frankly disturbing.
It’s not by her (it’s linked to someone writing under the name of Freddie Kruger and Jason Voorhees.) but she has specifically given the threat it’s own thread in order to showcase a good post in the same way that a good point made on a proper blog may get it’s own blog post to showcase and highlight the points made in an archive format.
|Hey Freddie! What are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night!
We try and post death threats on the internet!
It’s a frankly disturbing read, it’s either written by some kid who thought he was being smart (death threats are threats irrespective of source and the internet is less anonymous than one thinks and are valid anywhere in the world as a legitimate reason for investigation.) or worse by someone who genuinely can think of doing these things to someone. I mean, at some point I will have to insert needles into people and cut people open (I wish to go into surgery) but the very thought of doing it to a living human makes me nervous because I cannot simply say that “I would cut you open and wear your skin like a puppet” without actually imagining it and I would be rather uncomfortable doing it.
This is not the Badass Boast of a hero as Camille thinks. This is the psychotic threat of someone who is genuinely scary and who genuinely may be a threat to Dr. O’Leary.
Maybe I haven’t seen that many Animal Liberation death threats, maybe this is a normal one for their ill breed which may be why so little is done about it. Maybe it’s all talk and no trousers, but frankly? I don’t see why we should wait till someone is hurt or killed before stamping down on this sort of thing.
It is not a threat against a single individual. It is a threat against all the people who work in medicine and biology and any field that involves animal research. It threatens not just him but his family as well.
This isn’t a movement of love, it’s a movement of fear. They are no different from terrorists of every sort. From the IRA who claimed to have a love of their country but instead killed people for belief in a different variant of their god to the muslim extremists who we are so familiar with.
What can we do? Well for starters we need to start protecting students from these people, they are the most vulnerable as they are poor and easy to physically get hold of and harass. We need people to see the genuine benefits of animal research rather than hiding them away. In short we need a new movement in the USA to campaign outright for animal experimentation in the same way that PETA does.
You cannot ignore them, the more you ignore the greater the support they drum up. You cannot hide because the more you hide they more you are portrayed as Dr. Frankenstein or Dr. Moreau. The fear of medicine and the fear of the unknown science is an old one and the only way to fight it is to prove that science isn’t scary and to make it accessible to all. You have to meet them on the battlefield of public opinion and crush them. It was done in the UK and it can and must be done again.
This isn’t just about students, this is about teachers, this is about doctors and most importantly this is about the environment and patients. The biggest environmentalists are the very people the animal liberation movement attack (Banner Waving and harassment won’t save Tigers. Captive breeding can.). The biggest source of medical research for a new generation are the people we abandon today to be harassed by these luddites.
Are we so cowardly and incapable as scientists to start campaigning against them and for research rights? For me it took the work of Laura Cowell to start fighting, I hope her story encourages those who read to realise what our patients go through and what animal research represents for medical progress.
To borrow Laura Cowell’s joke, I rattle too.
She posted contact information on her website initiating what appears to be a campaign of bullying, harassment and possible threats that forced her to quit. And she is proud of this.
This is no different from intimidation from the mob or from the likes of Osama bin Laden’s ill breed of religious fanatics. Do as we say or we will hurt you.
To any student from the University of Florida reading this, do not accept her offer of money for information, she is merely a bully. I understand the temptation of money but remember that what she is offering is money solely for the harassment of an individual whose education leads to the formation of technology that we do use almost daily. Without animal testing we wouldn’t have proven the efficiency of helmets and safety belts. Without animal experimentation we would not have proven the link between DDT and wildlife destruction. Without animal testing we wouldn’t have proven our medications and drugs.
Don’t fall for Camille’s nonsense. She is a coward, she cannot face down a real scientist because a real scientist with knowledge of the field will choke her arguments in evidence so she skulks and targets students. She doesn’t want to negotiate not because there is nothing to negotiate about, but because she knows that her followers will be lost should she be exposed to logic.
She is a hypocrite, having utilised technology obtained from animal experimentation and is ensuring others do not receive the same sort of education and technology that saved her life.
She is a terrorist, she deals in fear and suffering rather than construction. She targets the very individuals who reduce animal testing, eliciting sympathy from unexplained photographs without showing the actual research and the goals of it. She heavily misrepresents biological research and shows an abject lack of understanding of the field (what with her being a failed law student) equal to any creationist or merchant of woo.
She misrepresents research (We know mice are not a great model for hearts. We have known this for years and I knew about in 2001 while I was still in school. It’s why we use pigs and dogs whose hearts are closer to ours. If there was a way to GM a pig to carry human tissue type we would we end our waiting lists for heart/lung transplantation since a pig and human heart are similar in size and work exactly the same.).
But most of all she is proud of tormenting an 18 year old out of a job. She is a despicable human and her ultimate quote speaks volumes.
“Hitler didn’t exactly exterminate Jews by himself … It takes all the links in the chain to perpetuate the Holocaust,”
I could joke about Camille comparing herself to Hitler, after all Hitler dealt in fear, misrepresentation of science and ideological superiority rather than science, conversation and equality.
However I will make a serious point. Camille has just compared the death of roughly 6 million jewish people, a further 3 million gypsies and undesirables such as the mentally ill, disabled, gays, atheists and political prisoners via bullet, poison and starvation. She has compared one of the most heinous crimes against humanity to the improvements of knowledge of science and medicine.
Does that seem like a person with any sense of perspective?
With regards to your answers to “A Student” I have some further points to make about what you have stated.
It’s a good question you ask- I wish more people would do the same. First of all you’re correct to fear for your friends. We’re 3000 strong globally at Negotiation Is Over- some more angry than others. I have attached some pics because it’s likely you don’t understand what’s happening and what’s about to happen. We do what’s right and we are showing students the truth for the first time.
First of all the animal holocaust is not an exaggeration. Just today the current number of animals killed for research has risen to 3.7 million PER YEAR. There’s never a year where the numbers go down. It’s not just mice in mazes anymore Pat, look at the pics- this is what’s being done to animals hourly. And the Universities are responsible for huge amounts of torture, fear and mutilation. We are moved by this horror as many have been in the last 2 centuries. BUT nothing has changed and more animals suffer and get thrown in the college incinerators. We are not going to do the same polite peaceful things, I mean only a moron would think that way!
How many animals do you think die for your food? Do you not care about insects? Perhaps you should start arguing for mosquito rights? I submit that you are just as “speciest” as me, I am driven by biology while you are driven by “what is cute”. What solution do you have to say… The australian rabbit problem? What solution do you have to ensure food stocks remain unspoilt by rodents? What solution do you have for insect control?
Because it seems to me that you only care about the animals who die for medical research, not the ones that die for your food and to ensure that you don’t catch a variety of diseases where animals are the vectors.
|For the love of god!!!!|
Yes, animal experimentation is horrible but you know what? So is the actual treatments we come up with. It may sound like fun and games but we do give the things we tested on animals to humans too and it’s just as gruesome. Infact we sedate humans prior to surgery and give them anti-anxiety meds as part of pre-anaesthesia because a surgery is “terrifying”. And pictures of surgery are bloody and filled with tubes and gore.
Just look at those photos, those are pretty much poster children against medicine. But the thing is that’s what you see. For me the first scene is a scene of love and care. The man who died and is being autopsied has no one to care for him, no one but the hands of the man doing his autopsy. The only person in the entire world who cares about what happened to him is some stranger who is doing the autopsy for free in a crowded room. It’s a public service to give closure to those who cannot afford it. It is a gesture of ultimate respect and love for humanity. But the meaning of that isn’t there without me giving you the context of it. If I said “Horrid Hospital Conditions” you would be up in arms about doctors making a quick buck.
The second photo can simply be described as the standard “blood, gore, tubes, pain”. When we figure out what works in animals we then experiment on cadavers. Once we are sure on cadavers we try it out on the living volunteers. That’s they way it goes.
If I said that all patients are treated like these individuals in the photos you would consider doctors to be inhuman monsters who like causing pain solely for some perverse pleasure. But it’s not the case, the animal lib infiltrators seldom take photos of the nice things, instead focussing on the worst of care to paint a picture that all animal tests are like that 24/7.
If I should show you the removed sternum of a man you would consider me as a lunatic, but if I said that it was done for a life saving heart and lung transplant you would nod along and think “my, isn’t that Avicenna bloke and his medicine marvellous?”. Well not “you” Lisa Grossman, you would probably froth at the mouth and claim that the surgeons involved in it are greedy (yes… So?) and want to earn money (again? So? Camille and Lisa are rich enough to have computers to run websites and probably own fancy phones with things like twitter on them. Unlike the students they torment).
We have many elements to this fight. Some have stopped several airlines and ferries just this year from transporting lab animals to prisons. We petition congress to stop giving money. We tell alumni at colleges the same and show them the TRUTH. In California there have been fire bombings on vivisectors and the torture still continues!! Now its time to stop vivisection from getting started. That would mean showing students what will actually be expected of them. It’s wrong. We’re good and right and only showing the truth. We will fight for the animals if this doesn’t work. Seriously, No more “chatting” about a holocaust.
A lot of those prisons are large enclosures, a lot of animal liberation photos don’t show the actual living quarters of animals instead choosing to show quarantine quarters and lab spaces. Petitioning congress to not give money will just harm the people who need it. And more people need that research.
A few days ago a friend of mine’s girlfriend’s family came over to meet them, on their way back home they met with an accident. They all survived the crash, mainly due to the seatbelts which were tested on animals (and then human cadavers and finally actual volunteers), however their 2 year old daughter suffered a fragmented vertebra and damage to the spinal cord. We are crossing our fingers and well… for want of a better word “praying” for her recovery in whatever way we can. (I may be an atheist but I can understand a genuine gesture of love and despair. And it is not my place to make an argument out of someone’s grief.). But from the sound of things she may be a paraplegic, she has no response below her arms of which only one functions.
I have an uncle who met with an accident before I was born. His car was struck from behind leaving him severely neurologically damaged. He can barely speak and barely moves after years of intense physiotherapy. He was an intrepid geologist and a pilot, and now her can barely dress himself. It’s why Camille’s statement of attacking the disabled is met with such revulsion. It’s why her statement that she “cured herself of quadriplegia” is so abhorrently insulting. It’s why her statements about attacking the disabled are so utterly vile.
|Falciparum has a right to live too! Who are you
to decide that it’s lifecycle is anathemic to humans!
So to say Stem Cell research isn’t worth doing because of some animals is to be like your friend Camille Marino. The truth is this, the answer lies in experimentation and that there is no alternative. A bunch of stem cells in vitro hasn’t translated to in vivo results, we haven’t been able to “cure neural degeneration” and while you and your movement don’t give a flying fuck about human beings and indeed most animals, I do both personally and professionally. However a kind of species phobia exists. While we draw the line at man, the animal lib draw the line at insects. The day I will respect your movement is the day you stand up and defend the right of mosquitoes to live. The day you gain respect for having principles is the day you stand up and say that clean drinking water is abhorrent due to all the animals it kills. The day you gain respect is the day you campaign against anti-helminthic drugs as worms have a right to live too. Until then the only animals you care about are the ones that fit into your world view. The rats you release will happily be killed to ensure your food is plentiful and your living conditions aren’t atrocious.
And a little idea about those who suffer. The people you are punishing aren’t doctors or biologists or vets, they are our patients. There are roughly 5000 spinal injuries a year just in the USA alone who could benefit from stem cell research. You have 3000 followers world wide… To put it into perspective JUST the USA outnumbers your movement and the number of people who need the research into neuro-regenerative stem cells is enormous.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THERE ARE NOW A BAZILLION ALTERNATIVES AVAILABLE. ANYONE WHO CONTINUES TO TEACH CUTTING UP ON ANIMALS WHEN THIS IS AVAILABLE IS TEACHING FRAUD, WHILE MAIMING, ELECTROCUTING, POISONING AND KILLING INNOCENTS. DUDE HOW CAN YOU BE FRIENDS WITH PEOPLE WHO DO THIS??
There aren’t a bazillion alternatives. There are few, those that we use are actually the alternatives.
An example you say? I have used this one before but I am writing it here fore posterity. The Clear Blue pregnancy test is an example of scientific technology reducing the usage of animals. Prior to the pregnancy test you took a
|I don’t need an excuse to post bunnies.
Consider it as payment for the photos.
The difference? The rabbit test was incredibly expensive. A single rabbit costs around $20, plus it’s feed and the care. Not to mention you need a lab with a pathologist. A single pregnancy test was around $200. While the clear blue test is around $12, purchased over the counter and can be done at home. That is an amazing alternative.
The ones bandied around by Animal Lib tend to be science fiction or alternatives that are already being used. To model an entire animal would require a total understanding of biochemistry and interactions which will only occur through animal testing anyways as otherwise you are not understanding animal physiology but merely guessing. A lot of what they want us to use simply doesn’t function like that.
Again there is an idea of using humans only for testing failing to realise that destructive testing is not acceptable in human beings. Basically the idea of destructive testing is to cause a system to fail in a specific way to learn about pathways, most of what we know is actually about destructive testing. If you want to find out what a key biochemical pathway does you knock out steps and see what happens. It’s how we find out about diseases, for instance Parkinson’s disease is due to a degradation of cells that supply the brain with dopamine, so we fixed that by giving L-Dopa. Turns out that caused a bunch of side effects outside the brain that we knew about, so later we added carbidopa to improve dosing and effect of drugs. We wouldn’t know about this interplay in cells and we wouldn’t know about this interplay without knocking out systems and seeing the effect. And indeed without going out and killing a bunch of people with Parkinsons to find out what’s so different about their brains.
Animal experimentation must be justified, you cannot simply run an experiment for “shits and giggles”. Ask any student writing a research proposal about how much emphasis on ethics and rationale for animal use is there.
Anyone who receives this knowledge and doesn’t change their paths and attitudes is guilty of the same. You’re students and we’ll try to teach you first with real, current information. But I seriously doubt all will listen so we have plans for them too. Dreams and goals and degrees can stay the same. We simply insists that no more animals be used to achieve them as its not necessary. See attached word doc and pics. Any decent young person would join us.
|It’s science witches!!!|
You are asking biologists to learn biology without ever seeing an animal. Look, I am breaking this down to you guys in terms anyone can understand.
When Dolores Umbridge taught the Defence against the Dark Arts class, she banned practicals despite the fact there was a rising threat of dark magic and Voldemort to fit in with the official political rather than the sensible line of thought. The ultimate point of teaching only theory without practicals is that it would have destroyed the ability of Dumbledore to raise an army from the student body as they wouldn’t have the requisite skills.
NO WE WILL NOT HARM ANYONE!
That’s funny. your boss Camille has specifically has threatened to injure paraplegics and is infamous mainly for threatening to kill and injure biology students. And remember the people being targeted are ironically the most powerful demography when it comes down to protecting animals.
|Pictured… A Badass|
How many Camille Marino’s and Lisa Grossman’s are out protecting tigers? Even their heroes in things such as the Sea Shepherd movement are biologists. The biggest protectors of biodiversity and eco-systems are not frail vegans with placards but “vivisectors”.
I put this to my readers… How many people think Animal Liberation would give their lives to go protect gorillas in war torn regions like Diane Fossey? Or save Tigers, Whales, Rare Skinks, Slugs and tiny moths solely for the sake of tiny moths? How many will fight deforestation with damning reports and create lasting change and independance of the people so that they stop relying on wild animals and destroying habitats?
We will however expose the truth about animals being tortured in labs for research. Its a sickness based in greed since there are alternatives. And people who do this will be exposed for their addiction.
It’s funny how life is such an addiction that Lisa’s own partner in crime, Camille willing traded her beliefs in animal equality to use products of animal experimentation to save her own life. The hypocrites aren’t us, it is the animal liberation movement who speak out of privilege of not needing medicine, so don’t see the inherent value.
We know even if it all comes to an abrupt halt, greedy people won’t miss a beat in making profit on using the alternatives. Thats why we work to abolish all animal testing immediately- its the fastest way to alternatives being developed and used. So theres no need for us to cause harm- and it’s totally against our world view! We have proof that people who know the truth about how innocent animals are used, they do not accept it on any level. Look at all the south florida businesses and workers who will no longer associate with primate products! No one was harmed for this! The truth was simply shown.
What alternatives? We already use alternatives a lot, the ultimate problem being that you develop alternatives to animal research through animal research otherwise you wouldn’t know efficacy. If a piece of alternate technique is worse than in vivo then why should we use it? And how would you even develop alternatives without comparing it to animal systems.Can anyone name one alternative developed by the likes of Camille Marino, Lisa Grossman and Walter Bond? Productive research? Improvements? A simple kind word to those who suffer from disease? A donation of something as simple as blood or bone marrow? A kind word to those who are ill?
|So Vegan diet or deity?|
Veganism has become a cult rather than a dietary choice. It’s very close to becoming a deitary choice.
And I agree with Mr. Bond, Veganism is not an Adequate Diet. This fails under the simple fact of being animal liberation and being medically unsound advice. Culturally vegetarian people such as the Pharsi and Hindus manage to do so because they drink milk and eat eggs like “crazy”. They may not eat meat but they do get animal protein to supplement their vegetarian diets. Without which they would be prone to any number of diseases such as iron deficiency (so rife in India that I have seen “kiddie iron supplements”, something that is unheard of in the developed world because our kids drink milk and eat burgers). I have seen rickets because kids were so poor they couldn’t get milk. Like vegans.
You literally are dosing yourself with medications (supplements) meant to be aimed at people who cannot eat certain foods. Those are drugs and even things such as Vitamin D can make you badly ill. It’s why we encourage natural sources because the chance of OD is very low. It’s very hard to OD on Vitamin C, not unless you eat oranges all the time.
And PS — any students who continue their studies by refusing all dissections and all animal use ARE OUR HEROES!!
|I refuse to learn until you substitute reality for mine!
And my reality is laden with talking meerkat!
If you don’t do the dissection then you don’t get the marks allotted for the course. It’s as simple as that. You aren’t “making a statement”, you are making a stupid mistake.
It’s simple, if I don’t like cadavers my choices in dissection were “shut the hell up and stand there” or “don’t stand there and fail”. The same applies to biology students. This is a career driven course and skills must be learnt. Otherwise why are you even there? What do you possibly expect?
Your university course is there to teach you how to understand a subject, not to discuss about how you should be allowed to do what you want in a professional course rather than learn the skills needed.
See the problem here is they are getting others to do their dirty work, the university know about her and she can be barred from premises.
No what she is doing is encouraging the harassment of students by hiring other students to do so. It’s not illegal per-se but it is distasteful. She is harassing people for what they do in life and it’s not acceptable. It’s bullying and all bullying is unacceptable.
One of my personal heroes passed away unknown to me this year. Laura Cowell was called out as a poster child for animal research during a campaign for more Cystic Fibrosis research. She was attacked by many animal rights activists for trying to portray people indebted to big pharma.
Unlike others, Laura Cowell and her parents fought back. Laura passed away this year, fighting for a cure for people like herself in the way she could. She showed incredible bravery and strength to fight for the right to live and the rights of people like the very same people being harassed by the Animal Liberation movement.
I won’t forget.