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San Diego Comic Con – An Attack on a Cosplayer *Update* It is an injury

Update – http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/jul/31/comic-con-cosplayer-fell-not-assault-hotel-pool/ Apparently it wasn’t an attack. She had fallen onto the side of the pool. Justin Kalior, the 29 year old who drove the young cosplayer to SDCC, is still charged with “sexual contact with a minor and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. [Justin] Kalior told Polygon he was friends with the victim, and denied having sex with her or giving her any alcohol.” He also claims he thought she was 20. The girl turned 17 on Sunday.

Comments

  1. JumpTheShark says

    Somehow lost the last couple sentences of this paragraph:

    I agree Lochaber, you absolutely make sure that you exercise a hands-off approach unless the person, model, etc. provides you with permission. Also, same with picture taking. You personally ask them if you may photograph them. None of this creeper-ass picture taking. But I am not saying that it is wrong to deviate from the artist’s tried and true, this-is-the-way-it-is, design, but AGAIN, when you take it to the level that it is pushing the level of common-fucking-sense in what should be acceptable attire at an all-ages con, then that’s when you’re going to start highlighting the creepers and weirdos. Don’t give them anything to latch onto and I’ll bet these instances will disappear.

  2. Daniel Schealler says

    I have a pretty clear cut definition of what is acceptable and what shouldn’t be acceptable dress at an all-ages con.

    No one else gives a flying fuck about what you think is or isn’t an acceptable dress-code, Jump.

    If you think that your opinion on acceptable dress code matters to anyone other than yourself or is relevant to the subject of a young woman being brutalized and left in the street, then you are wrong.

    If you do not think that your opinion matters to others, or do not think it is relevant… Then why are you giving it?

    Dress code is not what is important in this context.

    What is important in this context is that a young woman was brutalized and left in the street. What is important is to condemn violence and sexual harassment.

    Rather than this, you on the other hand want to talk about what is or isn’t acceptable dress code, and whether ‘maybe’ the women who dress sexually may want to consider professional sex work.

    This is the incorrect focus in this context and is vastly lacking in respect and empathy for other people. Which qualifies as wrong by any reasonable measure.

  3. JumpTheShark says

    I just lost everything I was typing by accidentally closing the tab, but that’s fine because I’ll just sum it all up:

    I don’t give a rip about what your self-righteous ass thinks either, Dan, so I guess we see eye to eye on something. Wonderful.

    Now…why dress code IS important: if everyone would take a few steps back and realize that every one of these instances directly relates to some complete dipshit groping or assaulting some underdressed cosplayer, then maybe they should reinforce or tighten up security at conventions, or enforce a dress code. I don’t care how they dress, what they do, or who they engage with on their own time or behind closed doors, but at conventions maybe think about the shitty reality that something like this could potentially happen. So hey, guess what, maybe you shouldn’t dress inappropriately. That shit should be pretty clear cut when going to a con, pointing out or highlighting the morons who may pull some stupid shit…well you can’t always spot stupid, so one simple solution would be to enforce a more strict dress code.

    So again, yes, it does matter. Why, because your shitty empathy isn’t going to fix the situation or protect someone from something similar happening at a future convention.

    Have a wonderful evening.

  4. Daniel Schealler says

    Harassment or violence take place when the following are in place:

    1) A person with intent to harass or commit violence.
    2) An opportunity for that person to perform their intent on a victim.

    What their victim is wearing is unimportant. If a woman is covered from neck to toe and winds up in a situation where a person who is inclined to do harm towards women has the opportunity to do so, then it is very likely that the malicious person will do so. What she is wearing is irrelevant. What is relevant is the malice of the perpetrator.

    What is important is that there are people out there who are inclined to commit violence and harassment towards women. That is the problem that needs to be addressed and fixed. Stricter dress codes are not the answer.

    That these individuals think that the way women dress is a justification for their malicious actions towards women is a part of the problem.

    By responding to the news that a female cosplayer was brutalized and left on the street by condescendingly mansplaining about wearing meat into a lions den as if none of us had ever heard this before, as if Emily was somehow responsible for getting herself brutalized because of what she was wearing, means that you are contributing to the culture of entitlement that leads men who are inclined to harass or commit violence to women feel justified in doing so if those women happen to be wearing revealing clothing.

    You are contributing to the problem, Jump.

    I’m not alone in my assessment of this.

    You seem very quick to respond to our dismissals of you as if we were doing it without reason. But we are giving reasons. You are just ignoring them.

    Take a step back and think about this yourself. Remember that being wrong feels indistinguishable from being right. Just because you agree with yourself doesn’t mean that those of us who give reasons for disagreeing with you must therefore be closed minded or wrong. It could just be that you have been wrong this whole time without realizing.

    So far, I have seen people who disagree with you consider your words and give reasons for disagreeing with you. In response, you have just accused us of being closed minded, ignored our reasons, and re-asserted your own position as if it had never been challenged.

    Of the two of us, we are not the ones demonstrating the behavior of someone who is closed-minded. You are.

    Reconsider your own position with an open mind. We are reasonable people, Jump. That we disagree with you should give you reason for pause.

  5. lochaber says

    Jump>

    You claim you aren’t victim blaming, but that is exactly what you are doing.

    First you claim to agree that it shouldn’t matter what someone wears, but then you later claim that harassment and assault are bound to happen to anyone wearing overly sexual outfits, and a more conservative dress code should be established/enforced.

    The fault lies entirely with the aggressor. Full-stop.

    If you try and claim she somehow bears some responsibility in her assault about what she wore/how she acted, then you are victim-blaming. You are blaming the victim for their assault. It doesn’t matter if you think she deserved it, or a hundred people think she deserved it, that view is wrong, and holding that view perpetuates rape culture and emboldens those who seek to harass, assault, and rape others. It’s views like yours that lead to harassment, assault, and sexual assault crimes not being reported, not being taken seriously by the police when they are reported, not going to court, and not getting convictions.

    It’s a really toxic and harmful (both to women, and to a lesser extent men) view to hold. Please think about this some.

    And, eh I couldn’t care less about what you think is appropriate for an ‘all-ages’ event. I don’t think it’s terribly different then walking around out in public, and you aren’t going to see any more flesh in comic con then you would on one of the beaches outside the convention center, and those are ‘all-ages’ as well. If you can’t deal with a bit of skin, that’s your problem.

  6. JumpTheShark says

    “Remember that being wrong feels indistinguishable from being right.” Exactly. So perhaps heed your own regurgitated words, Daniel.

    The question that you are too full of yourself to see or ask: what is evoking the violence? What gave this person the opportunity? You keep saying that you are giving me reasons and that others are as well, but you’re not. I continue to bring up alternatives and potential solutions, but all you are saying, Daniel, is that my suggestions are wrong. And you continue to shove the fact that a girl was brutalized by a male in my face. I get it. You are jumping to conclusions when you don’t even know the whole story yourself, but somehow think that I am being unreasonable because another instance of violence befell another inappropriately-dressed cosplayer. That is your intent and opportunity for morons to strike. Your #1. and your #2. Unless you have a way to detect these malicious people in advance, which I’d love to hear, then again just post again and say that I am somehow wrong and that what she was wearing might not have envoked this scumbag.

    *Deep breath in* AGAIN I am not justifying violence or what this person did, but try to think of ways as to how it can be prevented, not just say that I am wrong and not provide reasons why.

    For instance: stop posting hollow support-less posts, and I’ll stop shutting you down with responses.

  7. JumpTheShark says

    You’re right lochaber, I personally don’t give a shit what she wears, but there’s a time and a place for showing some fucking respect. And that place IS at an all ages show. You are not going to stop adolescent idiots from doing stupid shit, so the question remains: how do you prevent people from committing these things? No one has yet to try to answer it besides me.

    Since this is an ongoing issue at conventions ill-dressed cosplayers should take highly unfortunate events like this into consideration, yet people always seem so shocked that we don’t live in a perfect rainbow-and-puppies world when something bad happens. And again, let’s link it to what…yup, some under-dressed cosplayer. No one wants to step the fuck up and say something, just express how all men are to blame, and spout off shit like “cosplay is not consent” and scary buzz words like “rape culture.”

    This is very different from any other day just walking around in public. If you see under-dressed people during your daily life events, I must be living in Mayfield with the Cleaver family, because I don’t see any of this sort of thing in mine: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS540US540&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=sexy+cosplay&tbs=qdr:w

    Also, I don’t ever directly claim that she is responsible for what happened to her…hmm not sure where you’re getting that. That having been said… you say:

    Interesting. Views like what? Saying that there should be tighter security, more appropriately dressed cosplayers for an all-ages show. Yeah, I can really see how that is a total step in the wrong direction. Shame on me for wanting a better, safer experience for everyone.

    You can take your finger pointing and recognize that you have four other fingers pointed back at yourself.

    Damn, you people are full of yourselves.

  8. JumpTheShark says

    Filling in that blank quote I messed up in post 57 (http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongods/2014/07/30/san-diego-comic-con-an-attack-on-a-cosplayer/comment-page-2/#comment-925467):

    “It’s views like yours that lead to harassment, assault, and sexual assault crimes not being reported, not being taken seriously by the police when they are reported, not going to court, and not getting convictions.”
    -http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongods/2014/07/30/san-diego-comic-con-an-attack-on-a-cosplayer/comment-page-2/#comment-925421

  9. Daniel Schealler says

    The question that you are too full of yourself to see or ask: what is evoking the violence? What gave this person the opportunity?

    The violence was evoked by the perpetrator that committed it.

    The opportunity? We don’t know anything in this case, so we can’t comment. Probably the perpetrator either stumbled upon or engineered a situation where Emily was alone. But regardless of the method, the perpetrator is still the source of the violence.

    The perpetrator is thus where we should be focused.

    *Deep breath in* AGAIN I am not justifying violence or what this person did, but try to think of ways as to how it can be prevented, not just say that I am wrong and not provide reasons why.

    Your suggestions so far have all been to do with women not dressing in revealing clothing. However, cloth does not have magical abilities to shield women from violent abusers. Therefore, your suggestion will not work.

    Furthermore, the idea that women who are assaulted who happened to be wearing revealing clothing could have prevented it had they worn clothing less revealing entails the idea that they are in some way at fault for putting themselves at risk because of what they were wearing. You can’t have one without the other.

    That is what makes me – and those who think like me – so outraged by your suggestions. And appropriately so, in my view.

    Like Avi, I am also insulted by the idea that men cannot be expected to control themselves around women who dress in revealing clothing. When you made the comparison to wearing meat while walking into a lion’s den…Firstly, human males are not lions. All of us have the capacity for empathy and self restraint. Secondly, attractive women are not objects the way that meat is an object.

    Yes, I know that no analogy is perfect, and you probably think that I’m being unreasonable to pick apart your analogy in this way. The idea however is that the problem of violence towards women is entirely a problem of those who commit the violence.

    A woman who is wearing revealing clothing is brutalized? Well maybe she shouldn’t have been wearing revealing clothing.

    A woman who is wearing clothing that covers her neck to toe is brutalized? Well maybe she shouldn’t have been walking in public alone.

    A woman who is wearing clothing that covers her neck to toe and takes a known and presumed safe male with her as protection so she won’t be attacked is brutalized by that male? Well maybe she shouldn’t have been walking in public without a family member.

    That man was her uncle? Then what?

    No, Jump. That entire line of thinking is deeply flawed. Because it will never end. Even in Saudi Arabia where most women are confined to Burkhas and confined to their own homes and not permitted to spend time alone in the company of non-male family members, violence towards women still happens.

    Tutting at women for wearing revealing clothing is not a constructive suggestion. It entirely misses the point and, whether you like it or not, implies that they could have done something differently to protect themselves, and thus are at least partly at fault for putting themselves at risk.

    Wearing less revealing clothing does not bring women any more safety than if they wore revealing clothing. It only brings the illusion of safety to the minds of people who think the clothing a woman wears contributes to abuse she may receive.

    This is wrong. The problem is the perpetrator, and the ideas that go into creating a culture where such perpetrators can be made or can get away with their crimes when caught. That is where we should be focusing our attention.

    Your suggestion has been considered and dismissed.

  10. JumpTheShark says

    The lion thing wasn’t me. Shows how well you read. Your shit has been dismissed.

  11. Daniel Schealler says

    You said the following:

    It honestly is just like FrankTheTank said earlier: “Walk into a lion den with a meat suit…” Don’t need a magic 8 Ball to guess the potential outcome(s) of something like this. Maybe Comic Con should hire more security because there are always going to be stupid people who try to pull dumb shit like this. Might not have helped in this case, but if people start seeing an increase in security maybe they’ll think twice (or in most instances, think for the first time) before trying some dumb shit like this.

    You didn’t write the original words, but you agreed with them.

  12. lochaber says

    I don’t know if you really don’t get it, you’re being willfully obtuse, or you’re just trolling. For now, I’m going to attempt a more opportunistic view.

    Nobody (well, nobody around here at least…) is claiming it’s the fault of ‘all men’. It’s the fault of the aggressors, but some blame also lies with everyone (women included) who do things to encourage/defend/allow rape culture. Things like criticizing the way a women dresses when she complains of harassment or assault.

    It.

    Doesn’t.

    Fucking.

    Matter.

    That’s it. She could be walking around naked with a backpack full of sex toys, and no one has the right to assault her or harass her.

    The closest you’ve come to proposing a solution is some vague statement about more security. Everything else you seem to be concerned about circles around “under-dressed cosplayers” and “ill-dressed cosplayers” verses “more appropriately dressed cosplayers”. Your entire focus is on the attire of the victim. That is by definition, victim-blaming.

    It’s views like these that lead to rape trials being dismissed because the victim was wearing tight jeans.

    Also, since you seem to think it’s incredibly inappropriate to be “under-dressed” at Comic-con, have you seen how many (most?) female comic book characters are dressed? Skin-revealing and sexualized costumes are (unfortunately) pretty standard in the industry. Do you want people to place black boxes covering up all the depictions of female characters as well?

    “Showing some fucking respect” – I don’t even get this. Was she wandering around hurling insults at others? I fail to see how one’s clothing has anything to do with “respect”, barring offensive slogans/slurs, or racist costumes, black-face, etc.

  13. triamacleod says

    Couldn’t the arguments about how she was dressed simply be summed up by one of the many slogans regarding Cosplayers and their rights to personal safety/respect:

    COSPLAY IS NOT CONSENT

    Simple, to the point and easy to understand. It wouldn’t have mattered if she was dressed as a mecha or as Miss Marvel. Some violent arse found her, took her and hurt her, the ENTIRETY of the assault is on him and him alone. Period. No mitigating factors. No ‘if only she would have’ concern trolling. Every bit of this is on the attacker.

  14. lochaber says

    triamacleod>

    Apparently, “cosplay is not consent” is “spouting off shit”. just like “rape-culture” is “a scary buzzword”.

    I’m fairly certain that if Jump responds to you, it will be to emphatically claim they agree completely that it was 100% the fault of the aggressor, but, come on, she shouldn’t be dressed like that if she doesn’t want to get assaulted.

    : /

    I really don’t understand why this is such a hard concept for people to understand. The only thing I can see is if they want to keep telling women where to go and how to act, yet want to try and maintain that they aren’t sexist.

  15. DJDrKarl says

    There are nearly 250,000 sexual assaults (on females aged 12 and up) in this country every frakking year. EVERY. TWO. MINUTES. (averaging it out). How many of those are of women, or girls, wearing skimpy costumes at a convention? So don’t tell me that this has ANYTHING to do with how she was dressed.

    Setting a dress code puts ALL of the responsibility on the women. Well, frak that. If you haven’t noticed, they have enough crap to deal with already.

    And when you place ALL of your attention on the alleged cause — when it is clearly not — rather than on allowing a culture to perpetuate where some give others a pass when they make rude comments, or squeeze their ass when they walk by, etc.; and where people talk about what a victim was wearing or how much she had to drink, etc., rather than on the asshat who did this… Well, it shows you don’t understand the problem at all, and in fact, you’re a part of it.

  16. weatherwax says

    They’re finally talking about it on the news, They’re still investigating, but her last known whereabouts were at an after party in a local hotel, and she was found on the concrete by the pool, not along the street.

    Hope they hang the bastard.

  17. lochaber says

    On top of the expected hatemail, you seem to get a slightly disproportionate amount of spam as well.

    *shrugs* at least sometimes I can find some amusement from spam, if only for it’s absurdity.

  18. says

    You’re right lochaber, I personally don’t give a shit what she wears, but there’s a time and a place for showing some fucking respect.

    Who, or what, was the victim disrespecting? And how, exactly, did her clothing constitute disrespect?

  19. says

    Even in Saudi Arabia where most women are confined to Burkhas and confined to their own homes and not permitted to spend time alone in the company of non-male family members, violence towards women still happens.

    And the rapist most often still gets away with it, and the victim is NOT better treated for having dressed modestly.

  20. Jackie says

    It is so fucked up that Frank is saying that it’s normal and understandable to sexually assault sex workers.
    You know how sex workers should be treated? They should be treated with respect and dignity, just like everyone else. They sell a service and that service being sexual does not make it OK to state that supposedly dressing like them is grounds for or “causes” sexual assault.

  21. DJDrKarl says

    Have these people never been here to San Diego before? Do they not know what these women and girls wear, every day, at the “all-ages” beaches in this County?

    As more news trickles out, it turns out the entire incident(s) occurred at the Marriot hotel. The 29-year-old arrested was a guest at the hotel. He has been charged with sexual molestation of a minor and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Witnesses apparently reported that she was at an after-party at the hotel. So it appears that this guy threw a party in his room, she chanced upon it, she drank at it — his responsibility to ensure that all guests drinking were of age, and she **clearly** was not 21, and witnesses must have seen him grope at her or something of that nature.

    Her memory is fuzzy–perhaps due to the head injuries she sustained; perhaps due to her being drunk(/drugged?); or both–so she cannot tell them who committed the beating and/or sexual assault (rape, I’m assuming). So they are still investigating–I guess reviewing hotel security tapes and interviewing more guest to find out who was with her when and how she got out to the pool area where she had been found by a security guard (NOT on the street).

    This had nothing to do with San Diego Comic-Con other than that the party, thrown by a private individual, was in celebration of its conclusion. It has nothing to do with how this lady was dressed, as how a woman or girl is exually assulated has ZERO correlation with how much skin she showed.

    Girls and women have NO obligation to dress in a way so as not to “tempt” men. Men have an obligation not to act on their own temptation. The burden should be on men to control themselves; not on women/girls to act or dress any different than how men/boys act or dress. 29-year-old men should not be allowing teens to get drunk; they should not be hitting on, let alone touching or anything else, girls who are 10-15 years younger than themselves (12-13 in this case … it was her 17th birthday!).

    And yes, men PAY for a prostitute; consent is given in an oral contract. So “dressing like a prostitute” (again, girls at the beach wear far less every day of the year) does not confer consent in any way, shape, or form.

    Anyone focused on any single thing that SHE did as a cause for this horrible event is sexist, full stop.

    Don’t be **that** guy.

  22. j says

    Kind of sad that people are turning this into a political thing.

    Unfortunate that this happened. :(

  23. Nephanor says

    She was NOT sexually assaulted. She fell and hurt herself. But of course, we will never see this updated, because it destroys the narrative that she was victimized. By what, her being clumsy? Or maybe that she was drinking underage?

  24. Nephanor says

    And if you don’t believe me:
    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/jul/31/comic-con-cosplayer-fell-not-assault-hotel-pool/

    Note, she was found by the POOL, not the side of the road. Also, look at the fact that she has two FB accounts: Milly Makara and Milly Massacre. You can see which one her mom didn’t know about. And why is an innocent man being arrested? People are screaming bloody murder and looking to crucify him for something he didn’t know and convict him of a crime that NEVER HAPPENED. So all of you screaming “STOP VICTIM BLAMING” and then “i hope they hang the bastard” should be ashamed. YOU are blaming the innocent victim. YOU are saying that an innocent man should be punished.

  25. DJDrKarl says

    Nephanor – it was the **police** who had made the assumption at first, as it “appeared” she had been assaulted, though they never confirmed she was sexually assaulted and I think they (not us) made the assertion she might have been given witness accounts of what had happened earlier.

    That being said, however, how is the man “innocent”? If you hold a party at which alcohol is made available, you are responsible for who drinks and what happens to them because of their drinking. The girl was CLEARLY not 21.

    The police have charged him with sexual contact with a minor, which might not hold up even if there were witnesses, as I don’t think it was as obvious to everyone that she had just turned 17 that day (unless she told him precisely that in front of witnesses), but also contributing to the delinquency of a minor for furnishing her with alchohol, which might not carry that big of a criminal penalty, but you can bet your ass her parents will likely sue him in civil court, and, rightly, get a lot of money from him.

    Note that the police also now says she was “drugged” and not just drunk, so depending on what was in her bloodstream, he could be facing more severe penalties. Was rohypnol put into her drink? It happens more a lot often than one even sees on television. But if they test something else in her system, like ecstasy, it could bring a warrant for them to search all his properties.

    This guy was 12 years her senior, nearly twice her age, and regardless of what happened exactly, it’s probably likely he was trying to get into her pants. That might even be what led to the “disagreement” that broke out that led her to leaving the party, and why they were already charging him for that offense, though then uncertain if he had anything to do with her lying unconscious, because witnesses probably told them he had touched her. Like maybe he pawed at her, which, even if they couldn’t prove he knew she was a minor, would still be sexual assault if she had not furnished him consent (yelling at him and running out of the party would be evidence of a “no.”).

    Yes, a lot of kids drink and do drugs, but as a professional adult, 4-5 years from being twice her age, you’re not supposed to be giving it to them, let alone touching them when they do so. Everyone knows that is the law. And it’s precisely because of unfortunate events like this. The parents, in civil court, will easily be able to convince a jury/judge that she wouldn’t have been trying to climb over the gate to get away from the hotel if he hadn’t tried laying hands on her.

    So don’t give me any “innocent” bull crap. She’s still a victim. Thankfully, just of this guy’s stupidity and ungallant intentions and not anything more heinous, on this occasion. But still a victim. She’s a child, and not responsible for the consequences of drinking; those who gave her the means to do so are. That’s why we HAVE those laws.

  26. Amandakline99 says

    Honestly you can see that she’s a disturbed young lady just by visiting her tumblr and Instagram pages. On tumblr she talks about wanting to be raped. She is also still claiming that she was. (Despite police reports saying otherwise.) On her Instagram you will find image after image of her doing drugs. She not only was stupid that night but she has been passing herself off as a twenty year old woman. There are several people who met her and were told she was 20 including the photographer being charged. Her Facebook page displays an upskirt shot that she herself admits to asking to have taken in the comments for no other reason then wanting something provocative. Her Facebook page also stated that she was 20. Somehow her parents are completely blind to this knowledge or at the very least didn’t care enough to do anything. She’s a victim alright. A victim of her own bullshit and deciet.

  27. says

    1. You do know what a rape fantasy is right? It is one of the more common fantasies that many women have. It’s kind of like BDSM. Masochists have a specific role where they like to be dominated and feel physical pain.

    It doesn’t mean they want to get punched in the face by a random stranger.

    2. Oh no! Doing drugs makes you a bad person! No one who ever did drugs did anything good!

    3. I used to drink when 15, I pretended to be 18. Seriously? It’s a thing kids do. That’s why bars and the like run ID carding as routine. Hell my joke is that I got carded for the first time ever last year. I never was carded when I was 15….

    4. A facebook request to be taken is not universal consent.

    5. Oh no! Teenagers are being rebellious! Since when?

  28. Amandakline99 says

    The claim that all kidd do it in no way excuses anything she has done. An innocent man’s life should not be ruined because some future inmate wants to play with the adults. She is no victim. She was not drugged. She does drugs. She was not forcefully impared with alcohol. She drinks. She was not raped. She put herself in a very stupid situation. A situation that she has no business dragging others into. I will not feel sorry for a girl who threw a fit after being told to go home, got stupid and fell off a fence while under the influence.

  29. says

    No one really does rohypnol for fun. Alcohol =/= Consent and children put themselves in stupid situations all the damn time. That’s the point of being kids. Or teenagers. You get to be stupid until you learn not to be. You make it sound like you were never a teenager. Guess what? I was. I did stupid things. I grew up. In fact I grew up to be a responsible adult.

    It is quite simple. If she had been raped you would be blaming the drink, the clothes, the fact she was out. Not the rapist.

  30. lochaber says

    seriously, this shouldn’t be a hard concept to understand.

    It doesn’t matter what some person put on the internet.
    It doesn’t matter what some person is wearing.
    It doesn’t matter if some person ingested some drugs and/or alcohol

    You still do not get to touch that person without their permission (consent). And if such person is under the influence of drugs/alcohol, there is a good chance they aren’t in a state of mind where they can grant permission (consent). If the situation is too confusing too you, that is _YOUR_ responsibility, not the drugged/drunk person. Errr on the safe side, see them to a safe place, go home, and if necessary, fire up your computer, load up your favorite porn sites, and wank yourself silly. Just don’t try to involve someone who isn’t adult and sober.

    I want to say this is a pretty simple concept, sorta like: “Don’t be a dick”, but apparently a lot of damned people seem to find this too damned complex.

    If this is too complicated for you, you really should try to refrain from interacting with other people until you start to get this stuff figured out.

  31. Amandakline99 says

    If she was raped I would blame the rapist. However she was not. 16 is old enough to know better. (17 now) It boils down to her not caring about the reprocutions of her choices and her blaming someone else for her stupidity. A responsible adult would not make excuses for the heinous behavior of a self aware teenager under the guise that “its what kids do”.

    I was never compelled to lie about my age to garner attentions. I was never compelled to drink or do drugs. I am, in fact, a victim of rape. I am very much in favor of locking rapists up. I am not, however, in favor of girls crying wolf to save face.

    I apologize if my view somehow offends you and I wish you all the best with your responsible adult life.

  32. lochaber says

    I hope I’m missing something here…

    An older guy lets some underage person into their afterparty, supplies them with alcohol, to the point where such underage person suffers fairly serious injury, and somehow the older, suppling guy is the victim?

    Teenagers can be kinda dumb. That’s basically the main reason for trying to legislate that they shouldn’t have access to alcohol. Maybe you didn’t drink when you were underage, well, congrats. It’s a pretty common occurrence, and just because some underage person drinks, that still doesn’t excuse assault on them, or the legal responsibility of whoever ended up suppling that person with alcohol.

    Admittedly, I don’t know the full situation of what actually happened, but I feel fairly safe in stating the following:

    If she was sexually assaulted, it’s not her fault, regardless of what she was wearing, where she was, who she was with, what drugs and/or alcohol she had consumed.

    If she wasn’t assualted, but was intoxicated, then whoever supplied her with those substances is legally responsible. If you want to host a party and supply adult substances, then it’s your responsibility to ensure that everyone present is of legal age. Underage people are likely to try and sneak in, and that’s something to be aware of and plan for. It doesn’t absolve the supplier of responsibility.

    And again, even if this particular individual wasn’t sexually assaulted, how does that change anything about consent, rape culture, and other victims? Because this particular person just happened to fall and bust her head, does that somehow dismiss all other sexual assault cases?

    I don’t think anyone here is arguing that someone should be punished for a crime that wasn’t committed, just that crimes shouldn’t be dismissed merely because the victim was wearing the wrong sort of clothing, or maybe not entirely sober.

  33. DJDrKarl says

    “16 is old enough to know better.” If this is true, then why do you need to be 18 to smoke, to drive, to see porn movies (legally), to be a porn actress, to send a nude selfie, for somoene to have sex with you (legally), and then **21** to drink alcohol.

    She may seem to have some idea of what she is doing, but she is JUST A KID. In fact, I find it funny that you try to sit there with a straight face and say that she’s old enough to know better and yet she’s doing stupid shit anyway. Don’t you see the disconnect there?

    “An innocent man’s life should not be ruined because some future inmate wants to play with the adults.” Again, HOW is this man innocent? He furnished her the alcohol. That is illegal. Apparently, he touched her in a sexual manner. That is illegal. (Especially since it appears she didn’t want that.) The man is 4 years from being TWICE HER AGE. The police have charged him and handed the matter to the District Attorney. If he gets jail time, it is because he broke the law beyond a reasonable doubt. And again, the parents are going to sue his pants off for her getting injured **because of his negligence** at the very least, and quite possibly because she ran out after he tried to fondle her at the party.

    Amandakline99: I am sure your are taking the girl’s comments on tumblr out of context. Having a rape fantasy is common and admitting having it is not the same thing as saying you want the real thing. There are those in the BDSM community who engage in “rapeplay,” — as with all other things in the BDSM community, the standard rule to follow is “safe, sane, consensual.” “Consensual rape” may sound like an oxymoron, but it is referred to as “consensual non-consent” with every aspect negotiated and safewords in place in case the person wants to stop a “scene” for any reason at any time. I’m sure all of this is beyond this girl’s thinking — she’s a kid! — but she certainly may have read about it somewhere. Don’t forget that Fifty Shades of Grey, the bestseller involving explicit BDSM sex, film right purchased for $12 million, with the lead from “Sons of Anarchy” originally playing Grey, started as a Twilight fanfic, so it is very likely this precocious geek girl has read it.

    As for her seeking the attention of men, if you read Lolita or watch “American Beauty,” you do kind of feel for the older male character somewhat seduced by the younger girl, but the reader condemns him in the former when he acts on his impulses and cheers him in the latter when he does not go through with it. No matter HOW MUCH she “asks” for it, if she doesn’t really give her consent, then ZERO sexual contact is okay, regardless of her age. Furthermore, if a woman is intoxicated, she can no longer provide any consent. The most frequent form of rape is “date rape,” usually as a result of the asshat guy getting the woman drunk so that her inhibitions are lowered, to the point she would not have given consent if she had not been drunk. This girl was SO DRUNK (and/or high) she fell from a fence six feet and doesn’t remember how she got there or if anyone was with her. That is not someone who can furnish consent, whether she was 20 or 17 or 40. The 29-year-old guy should know that. This is all Law 101. If you don’t like it, feel free to petition your legislator to change the laws to lower the age of consent and allow people who are in a mind-altered state due to legal or illegal drugs to provide consent.

  34. JumpTheShark says

    “She was under the influence of drugs, police said.”
    Source: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Comic-Con-Cosplayer-Not-Assaulted-Police-269470211.html#ixzz39AoJs0YJ
    See, by looking at the pictures on her cosplay facebook page, you can clearly make a pretty good judgement that she is a troubled kid, and probably hangs with an unsavory crowd of people. And again, contrary to everyone else in here, I agree with the opposing viewpoint of Amandakline99: she should know better. Growing up, I partied, and I fully knew that there were consequences associated with those actions. Would I EVER have blamed someone older whom I was partying with? HELL NO! Never. It was my choice.
    Amandakline99, don’t even argue with these people. They only have a hollow, self-righteous empathetic attitude for this dumb teen.

  35. Shockna2 says

    she should know better

    The victim should know better, therefore the perpetrator and enabler is completely blameless. Rock solid argument skills there.

    Would I EVER have blamed someone older whom I was partying with? HELL NO! Never. It was my choice.

    Her choice or not, supplying a minor with alcohol is a crime, and the supplier should be sentenced for it (assuming that the police were wrong about an assault occurring, of course). I don’t support calls to “hang the bastard”, but that’s because I don’t believe the purpose of the prison system should be punishment (it should be rehabilitation). A conviction would likely be a misdemeanor; hardly the sort of thing that ruins one’s life.

    I don’t suppose you also support only arresting meth users, and consider meth dealers innocent people? Major difference of degree (meth is a lot worse than alcohol), but the fundamental situation is the same.

    They only have a hollow, self-righteous empathetic attitude for this dumb teen.

    It’s so nice to see someone directly admit to being a sociopath for once. Empathy, since you don’t seem to understand the very concept, is actually neither hollow nor self-righteous.

  36. Shockna2 says

    Christ, the Google login uses my full name?

    @Avi: Is there a way to change the name on the comment above? I don’t really try to separate my real name and most common pseudonym, but I’ve never cared for how utterly pretentious my full name (with middle) sounds.

  37. Burt says

    you can clearly make a pretty good judgement that she is a troubled kid, and probably hangs with an unsavory crowd of people. And again, contrary to everyone else in here, I agree with the opposing viewpoint of Amandakline99: she should know better.

    Wait…so she’s clearly ‘troubled’ and yet she should have known better to associate with ‘unsavory’ people? So basically, if you have any kind of personality disorder, depression or mental illness of any kind – that’s tough, you should just ‘know better’?

    (I’m not saying the person in this case *does* have any kind of mental illness, just pointing out how shitty it is to use ‘troubled’ against her at the same time you’re criticising her for being the victim)

    Fuck, how I despise this attitude of ‘well, *I* would never be silly enough to do that, therefore this other person is in the wrong!’

  38. JumpTheShark says

    Anti-social, maybe, but sociopath…I’m sorry, but no, Shockna2. You know what, you can call it whatever you want, if it makes you feel better about yourself, I don’t really care one bit. I still think and feel the same about this whole situation and this girl. Just another instance of everyone jumping the gun and immediately assuming that some male physically assaulted her. And then when someone disagrees or says “hey, maybe we should wait to see what REALLY happened,” those people start the witch burning. LATE!

  39. djdrkarl says

    Yes, JumptheShark, I love how you harp on others for prejudging the male here, and yet you have no qualms calling her “clearly troubled” when you know NOTHING about her personally. I can tell you right now, I did WAY more drugs than her at her age–everything but H since I don’t like needles–and yet had a 3.9GPA while in my high school’s Gifted and Advanced Placement programs. You can’t say she’s “clearly” ANYTHING just because she uses a bong (like half of California students, in case you didn’t know).

    Also, let’s just note that the DA apparently has adjusted the “sexual contact with a minor” charges against him to what used to be referred to as “statutory rape,” but is now known by the better, simpler, less drama-laden descriptor of “sexual intercourse with a minor,” because yes, this guy 3+ years away from being twice her age that her parents trusted allegedly had been sleeping with her for awhile, based on what they separately told police and the texts they found on his phone.

    So he was an apparent enabler of her drug and alcohol consumption probably so he could bang her. Nice, upstanding, law-abiding member of the community you’re defending… ALL teens are angst-ridden and trying to figure themselves and life out, and feeling invulnerable, to varying extents. That’s **precisely** why they’re not supposed to be provided alcohol and you’re not supposed to sleep with them when you are an adult, even if they’ve given their “consent.”

    So the main lesson here is that HE should know better, at nearly 30 years old. Part of being a kid is *learning* to know better by making mistakes.

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