I Get Mail – Haterade/Jaclyn Glenn/Fake Muslim

“I take it as a badge of honor that such unclean vermin are upset by me and my positive energy, By all indicators, I don’t think they actually qualify as people, but there has always been a lunatic fringe of hateful, rotten, dishonest people that hate happy, successful people.” – Ted Nugent on Native Americans

This is a bigot.

Are we all agreed? Anyone object? Anyone think Mr. Nugent is doing something okay or acceptable? Can we go so far as to say he is racist? Maybe he likes other Native Americans, not just the Couer D’Alene Casino’s owners who are Native American and part of the Idaho Native American tribes. Maybe he is just a dick. An arsehole. I do hope Jaclyn reads this one because it can demonstrate how deep a genuine schism can exist and how damaging it is. But you know… Low Expectations. I predict this wil

But what if the arsehole is within our own movement.

Let’s talk about our own “movement”. Atheism as a whole has social groups and we like to think of these places as centres of intelligence where the bigotry of causes championed by religion no longer exist. We mock the KKK. We mock Ann Coulter? Hamas? Forget about it! Hindutva? Fuck that too! This is a place with no bias. Everyone’s equal.


Except we know this isn’t the case.  Pat Condell. The man has claimed that the EDL have a healthy regard for Human Rights, Decency and The Rule of Law


Now you tell me Jaclyn why the should I have to deal with someone who excuses the actions of people who have persecuted people who look like me? Why should I have to be silent over a man who supports people who have harassed me on the streets before. The man is more popular than my arguably small blog out here and this man has aa major following. He has a bigger viewership. Richard Dawkins helped create that readership. So I want to know how and why must I get along with this racist? Okay. Let us give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he genuinely had never met anyone who had run afoul of the idiots who wear the flag as a cape while giving Nazi Salutes. That’s okay. Here he was pushing a frankly old piece of racism “Gypsies are Thieves”.


And you tell me that I am not productive by opposing his racism and instead should put aside my fanatic cry for equality and share the same platform?


Why? Why can’t he put away his bigotry? I mean this was a man who ran with the “Ground Zero Mosque” about creeping islamicisation because Muslims wanted to build (quite legally) on a piece of real estate they legally purchased resulting in a bizarre scenario where Muslims cannot build stuff a certain distance away from the Twin Tower sites. Or his shocking lie on Syrian Refugees. What sort of skeptics are we if we let such blatant untruth be bandied around? Surely we hold ourselves to higher values? Isn’t the foundation of our atheism on the concept of skepticism about spurious claims? Are we Creationists to bandy such falsehoods around? We mock Fox News for using such headlines.

But let’s look at some fanmail… Don’t worry. It’s all anonymous.

Regardless of who said it the words are pretty awesome.


I’m reminded of the observation, “He’s an asshole, but he’s OUR asshole.”

So yes this is what it boils down to. It’s okay to ignore real concerns over someone as long as they are “liked enough by the masses”. Then we can excuse anything they say.

Pat is great. I love his no nonsense approach.

Yes…. representing 8000 as 2,000,000 is considered no nonsense.

Am I allowed to disagree with you Avicenna?

Sure…. You can disagree. 

However…. I must point out the groups he supports have clearly demonstrated racist attacks on people who come from my ethnicity and my own contact with them has been abuse. Apparently “looking like a Muslim” is enough to get you threatened by people he claims aren’t racist. If we boil it down, the EDL told me to fuck off back to my country and that I wasn’t welcome in the UK based on the colour of my skin and my ethnicity. According to Condell they aren’t “racist” and are peaceful and democratic. I have been away for a long time considering I am befuddled by the sporting of the whole “hipster hairstyles” but surely peaceful and democratic haven’t changed their meanings!

Do you not see the problem of supporting an atheist who says bigotted, racist and xenophobic things when atheists of minority communities struggle to get seen or even get heard? When a minority atheist points out that another person supports the racists who target them you promptly disagree in order to defend the racist. I haven’t said anything that isn’t verifiable. I have provided the links to his statements. He’s defended the EDL on camera.

Remember this is a man who supports the hate group that’s quite likely to kick my teeth out and claimed they aren’t racist. Little consolation to the Patels of Rusholme who got harassed. Patels FYI are Hindu Merchants the EDL clearly just attack Asians and Pat’s defended them. 

The UKIP’s less violent but it’s just as racist. Just because it hides behind a tie and suit rather than combat boots. 

You can disagree with me and agree with the racist, but then you tell me why should I not class as you as one. You can say “I can’t be racist! I like black people or whatever” but you are defending a xenophobe for the sole purpose of validating the views you like without thinking one important thing….

Whether or not people are just as outspoken as he is but aren’t as xenophobic, racist or outright incorrect.

Phew! That’s a relief. I had a horrible feeling you didn’t allow an alternative perspective. I didn’t read the ramblings past the first few words but what I will say is that Pat’s political leanings are of absolutely no consequence to me. This is an atheist group so his thoughts on religion are the only things I really care about.

Consider, Avicenna Last, that some of may not care what you “class us” as.

I have yet to meet an atheist with whom I agree in everything. I find that I can disagree with them and still “Like” the things I consider them to be correct about. And I am in 100% agreement with the comment posted here, regardless of who said it. Just as I occasionally reject a comment made by atheists with whom I am in very substantial agreement. Even if every last one of his other statements were nonsense, that wouldn’t make this one nonsense. So far, you’ve expressed, rather vociferously, what you don’t like about him, and said nothing about your objections to the idea expressed in the quote.

Pat is bombastic, to say the least. This is not the first discussion I’ve seen about his racist ways. I just wish I had his way with words.

Since when has racism and xenophobia been a political leaning that is ignored? If he was bashing Jews would we be so quick to applaud him? 

Ann Coulter hates Muslims too. Should we quote her? “Not all Muslims may be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims — at least all terrorists capable of assembling a murderous plot against America that leaves 7,000 people dead in under two hours. How are we to distinguish the peaceful Muslims from the fanatical, homicidal Muslims about to murder thousands of our fellow citizens?”

What? It’s bold! It’s strong! It’s also fucking stupid and we should not encourage this sort of bullshit. We have to hold ourselves to a standard better than the theists we mock.

There are people who do the same thing who aren’t racist or xenophobic. Please. I urge you to listen to Stephen Fry. Stephen Fry makes Christopher Hitchens look like a tongue tied drunkard. Elloquence and intelligence and humour and above all? A humanity and understanding that goes beyond simple bluster.

The Wahabbi’s are a crazy faith out of Saudi Arabia. But I also have written about the Sufis or the Muslims of Indonesia who tell a Hindu story via puppets. And I speak as someone who has seen both moderate and extreme Islam and has written about it from a more experienced viewpoint. And even I write as an outsider with experience rather than the first hand accounts of ex-Muslims

Want to know something scary? Both me and Pat Condell covered Shariah Law. Pat Condell chose Shariah arbitation standard riders in law offices in the UK which don’t break any laws. It isn’t that people are going to get their hands cut off for stealing. I think it’s clearly a bad deal but the problem here is not that people are willingly signing bad contracts but that Islam encourages people to take these bad contracts. The Shariah document isn’t some creeping islamicisation, it’s just that people were sick and tired of taking each paper to some Shariah expert so they just drew up some standard papers. We may as well throw temper tantrums about the Jehovah Witnesses who have similar stuff voiding doctors of responsibility in case of deaths caused by a lack of blood transfusion. 

I wrote about a young girl from Sri Lanka who was being tried in Saudi Arabia and how the system there works and how she was going to be executed. People would rather worry about a meaningless fear in the UK than about a real person who died in a system that was quite frankly mad. Did you know forensic evidence is not evidence in Saudi Arabia? If you are soaked in blood, with your fingerprints over a knife and DNA evidence you can get off a murder charge if you blame your underage maid… A maid died because a baby had SIDS and because the Wahabbi council considers CSI Miami to be Witchcraft. 

I wrote about plans in Malaysia to force doctors to become state executioners. I explained Shariah here. One of the advantages of actually having read the book.

We would rather fear Muslims in places where they are harmless and ignore them in places where they are harmful. You would rather make things up rather than actually see real problems and show support against these things.

Since you can’t separate him from the idea in the quote I’m really not interested in talking to you any more. Because I could say exactly what that quote says. And mean it. So I guess I’m a xenophobic bigot too.

So, by your twisted logic Avicenna because I am agreeing with Pat’s take on religion and not focusing on his political views that makes me racist by proxy, does it? I’ll focus on his religious standpoint and leave you to wail about your own agenda.

I have an Agenda. Like the Gay Agenda…. Only heterosexual. I feel like a super villain!

 I’m in total agreement with Patti about you finding it difficult to separate him as a person from his quote. I don’t care about his political leanings. Do you understand that? I don’t care. I’m more interested in how much belly button fluff I’ve accumolated over the course of an evening than whether his views upset you or not. I am interested in his views on religion. We are in an atheist group. If I find out he supprts a football team I despise that also doesn’t mean I won’t agree with his religious views. They are separate issues to me. Go join a group about oppressed ‘atheists of colour’ or set up your own.

Because racism is like a football team. Remember that dreaded period of Manchester City where those Cursed Reds chained us and treated us like inferior citizens in our own fair city? Remember the days of The Goat? Remember the Keegan? Remember Stuart Pearce? Oh wait no….

So the first explicit “stop bringing up race issues, we racist. Why don’t you leave this group and go form one just for atheists of colour”.

Pat Condell states very concisely the thoughts that I have been unable to put into words. Avicenna, I wasn’t interested in reading your biography, but I’m happy for you that you found this opportunity to tell our little Atheist community about all your travels and accomplishments. Now, having read Pat’s quote and your numerous tirades, I choose Pat’s.

Nor do I want to know any more about you and what you do.

Look not saying that I am some paragon of humility considering I can see a sort of narcissism to writing a blog, but these are my achievements. If we are discussing Islam then “living in a Muslim country for 13 years, working in one for a bit, travel , experience, education” all count.

Actually you know nothing about what I do. I rarely speak about my work. In fact I think I have a genuine problem in that my work is so outside the norm that most people would think I am lying. I got a camera JUST for this purpose. So that when I say “I am working with stroke patients doing McGuyver Physiotherapy” I can show the bottles of water we use as weights instead of dedicated equipment. I am just pointing out that knowledge is relevant. If we were discussing medicine you wouldn’t demand doctors shut up about the relevance of their medical degree. I think 13 years in a Muslim country and work across the Middle East and a knowledge of Islamic History is more useful in discussing Islam than screaming about ground zero mosques and 2 million Syrian refugees in Sweden but what the fuck do I know. Apparently skepticism isn’t welcome in this brand of atheism. Neither is experience. Or as you saw above. People of Colour. 

I have no doubts if my Internet Friends Heina Dadabhoy and Kaveh Mousavi and Taslima Nasrin and others who are ex-Muslims stated that people were wrong and that Pat is pushing a xenophobic viewpoint and bigotry against a minority that can manifest tiself as racism. They too would face similar accusations despite being ex-Muslims

And the big joke? All I said was that I lived in a Muslim nation and had some experience working with Muslims and some education on Islam from a objective source rather than “Internet Rants”.

Islam should annihilated. Poof. Gone from the face of the earth. I do not care if you call me a racist, xenophobe or islamophobe. Anyone with a brain cell can see how a religion like Islam has no justifiable place in any society.

I have heard these words before.

Having watched all of pats YouTube videos several times I can catogorically state he is NOT a racist. Anti-islamic and other religions he certainly is but that should be applauded not condemned.

Support for the EDL. Remember that one? 

Pictured… EDL

Pictured…. Attempts to do the Usain Bolt Celebration…. Or…. You know….

I repeat. You can be HONEST about Islam and be anti-Islam or you can just say things like “Sweden shouldn’t accept 2 million refugees from Syria because Muslims will invade and destroy Sweden. Doing so is suicide!” (8000 people already in Sweden were given Asylum) 

I repeat. We mock conservative Christians for saying the same things he does. And I repeat. He has claimed that the EDL who are neo-nazis against my ethnicity are NOT racists. And the political party he regularly campaigns for claims isn’t racist referred to Africa as Bongo Bongo land.

The man is a bigot, we just excuse it because

1. Dawkins liked him. Look in all honesty, he probably saw the man’s stance against something that wasn’t too controversial and pushed it in the same way that Dawkins has backed Thunderfoot’s anti-Creationist videos. But the damage is done.

2. If we admit he is a bigot then we aren’t perfect and we lose the high ground. 

Officially the EDL are NOT racists. Unofficially that’s a different matter. A single reference of a party member saying “bongo bongo” land does not equate to all members being racist. And WTF should Sweden accept 2million refugees!

That will help all the people they terrify understand! We aren’t officially racists! We just look and sound like them a lot!

Also? 1/10 for comprehension and not getting the point of lying about the reality of refugees in order to make it seem like Sweden’s going to become a Muslim nation.

When he limits his comments to rejection of the abuses of religion it’s easy to support those comments. People without a detailed knowledge of his other positions can easily support things he says, in isolation, without supporting his wider viewpoints. What seems to be happening here is, at first, just that. As you explain the wider context it would be reasonable to take a position of not supporting Pat in general – but still agreeing with a particular statement he makes. I think several people here are doing that.

You say, “Why don’t people respect Sarah Palin. If Sarah Palin said that we would tell her that she isn’t respected because she is ignorant and bigotted.”

Sarah Palin would not make such a statement. Read: she’s an asshole, but not OUR asshole. If, by some mischance, she was quoted as having said such a thing I think most of us would act with disbelief, since it is so out of character for her. Pat’s comment is not out of character for him.

You reject the message based on the messenger. Others are applauding the message regardless of the messenger (and there is some halo effect, to be sure, which may not be warranted.)

Pat says a lot of things that atheists in general agree with. Neither Sarah Palin nor the KKK do that. Pat also, evidently, says a lot of hateful and incorrect or misguided things. So too do Palin and the KKK.

If your message is that we should carefully separate the message from the messenger, and not over-credit someone based on a single criterion, I would say “fair enough”. But it seems you want to take it further than that, which is why you are getting the pushback you see, in my opinion.

Polite, but it does mean that I have to endure more atheists insisting that there is no racism within atheism.

So xenophobia, racism and not adhering to skeptic principles is okay within atheism (because fuck our basis in skepticism which drives our atheism) because anti-theism is more important than Asians. That’s what we are saying? That an Asian who finds a problem with someone saying disturbing things is simply ignored. What we want are Asians who shut up and nod when we say dumb things. We want people to validate our ideas and it is easier to validate ignorance than learn something new.

I wonder… If he supported Swastika carrying Neo-Nazis or the Klan rather than ones who simply attacked Asians (And I must point out the anti-Muslim racists have carried out as many lethal terror attacks in the UK last year as Muslims and the last major terror attack in Europe was by a White Nationalist with anti-Islamic leanings) and Muslims would you support him? Is it the notion that Asians are better off that makes bigotry acceptable? Or is it the fact that atheists don’t see a lot of Asians in the community making loud noises so don’t get that some of their actions are harmful.

See we accept you are throwing Asians under a bus in order to appear hard on Islam, we just want to find out what line would you accept as “too much”.


Yeah apparently…

Anti-islam and racist are not the same. Pat agreeing with a certain point as the EDL does not imply that he agrees with anything else but that issue. Racism is wrong and I do not tollerate racist comments I see on FB amd always report them.

Your obvious anger issues, Avicenna Last, seem to be seriously getting in your way of staying on the subject at hand. Do you remember what it was?

I know I have anger issues. It is why I try to use them constructively. Such as taking a huge pile of arguments defending clear bigotry and demonstrating the existence of a problem.

Your arguement is flawed. just because some people who oppose islam also are racist scum does not mean all people who oppose islam are racist.

Because Pat Condell’s repeated usage of right wing islamophobic fears are the same as my work and that’s the same as the EDL’s rants about Muslamic Attacks. But remember these people don’t want to see my work and judge it by it’s merits.

Nice to see the rage is still burning brightly Avicenna. Let me make it clear that I pretty much support any individual or organisation with ‘anti Islamic leanings’ as you put it. That doesn’t make me a racist. You also haven’t managed to shift my opinion on Pat one degree. Your rants have failed.

So you are an EDL fan. Hey they are anti-Islamic are they not? Good to know your principles. And we wonder why there are few atheists of colour when we applaud racists who spread lies and conspiracy theories under the guise of faux skepticism. You would support the klan of they validated your hate. I prefer holding Islam and its ideas under the same scrutiny as Christianity and avoiding promoting association with people who are racists who ruin my country through hate, bigotry and wearing flags for clothes.

I mean seriously does the EDL realise that Nazi Salutes + British Flag = Things that historically didn’t go together all that well?

I most certainly am NOT an EDL fan.

I welcome hindu’s, buddhist’s and followers of jainism but muslim’s I do not. Islam preaches hate and intolerance there is no such thing as moderate muslim they are commanded to emulate muhammad. As Pat would say “I’m intolerant of intolerance”

Rather amused me as a response so I had to put these two messages together….

I too read the EDL’s manifesto. No racism

I must have imagined those calls of “Paki”.

The quran is the perfect word of allah there is no picking and choosing.

So is the Bible (allegedly) yet we see no Christians in the West owning slaves. Muslims have nuanced readers of their texts too. It’s why there are Muslims in places like Afghanistan fighting for liberalisation peacefully.

When you dictate that all TRUE Muslims are fundies, you validate the douchebags.

No my idea of a muslim is someone who can he kind and charitable and help them that are less fortunate. The quran is at fault and when confronted with its teachings the kindest most progressive muslim falls back into line and does not oppose the vile words commanded by a mental pedophile. Reformation! Have you heard of it? This is what is required of islam. To accept it is not perfect and to disregard these horrific verses. I can not ever see that happening. Muslim apologetics like you are permitted to lie to a kaffer like me.

Oh dear….

Kaffir is the arabic word for “infidel” or “hider of the truth”. Basically? It’s an implication that I am a Muslim and I am hiding as an atheist to discredit atheism.

I am British I don’t even know what the tea party is ffs! This is an atheist page why the fuck are you even here? Take your muhammadian bullshit propaganda elsewhere no one want to hear it.

No I get the argument here. You don’t know much about Islam. If I told to you that one of the traditional arts of Indonesia was making puppets (WHAT! HARAM!) about Hindu Gods! (SUPER DUPER HARAM!) and holding plays (GAH! THE HARAM IS TOO DAMN HIGH!) you would think I am lying. My blog header is from Indonesian Shadow Puppetry.

Indonesian Shadow Puppets usually tell the story of Rama and Hanuman. Hindu Gods. The Ramayana and Mahabaratha are strong parts of their MUSLIM CULTURE. 

There is A. R. Rahman who writes love songs and poetry and everyone went crazy for his work on Slumdog Millionaire and Inside Man. Hell the entire micro-finance industry of South Asia that has resulted in the biggest social mobility drive and equality for women was started by a Muslim economist from Bangladesh. Hell? I adore the line “Those whose hearts are in love walk with paradise at their feet”. It’s cheesy but it is beautiful. 

What you choose is to decouple anti-theism from atheism and it’s roots in skepticism. Where you are held to the notion that an idea must be based in evidence and that perhaps we should avoid conspiracy theories, lies and falsehoods. Instead you embrace them.

And you do this because it is convenient. To you any discussion of Islam that isn’t biased and angry and full of people supporting your ignorance is bad. I know what argument you are making. 

 Why are you defending religion when you should be highlighting it’s failings. By definition an atheist can not also be a muslim. White black or fucking green I do not think it matters.

Sure… but it wasn’t enough to stop you accusing me of being a secret Muslim.

I notice famous atheists don’t have to prove their atheist cred. At no point is PZ Myers asked to drop and give them 10 desecrated crackers. At no point is Paul Loebe’s dedication to American Soldiers questioned as an insider for Christianity or indeed as a secret Muslim trying to fracture the American Armed forces through sectarianism! At no point does Stephen Fry or Hitchens have to defend their love of Rumi and Khayyam.

But I must do so. In order to be an atheist and from South Asia. I must pass a test. In order for traditional atheists to be taken seriously? They don’t even have to know that atheism is itself a form of skepticism about the claim of an existence of a fantastic creature called a god.

Skepticism is the lynchpin of Atheism. Skepticism about religion is what atheism is. Our entire ecology is born out of this. Dawkins, Hitchens, Fry, hell Taslima Nasrin, Maryam Namazie… these are all people who demonstrated the skepticism of religion which is why they are famous atheists. Same with historical atheists such as Ibn Sina or Bertrand Russell. 

Otherwise we are no different from any other religion because we have faulty beliefs of our own. We all do. Confirmation bias is rife. That’s why we do science and use mathmematics to try and alleviate the biases that we have. 

The fact you don’t believe in a god is one of the first stepping stones of skeptical thought that many of us begin with.

Why do you think pat is racist?

Is it because he supports a political movement that try to kick Islam out of Britain? In which some, not all, of the followers are racist? If that’s the case like all groups not everyone follows the norm.

Or is it the fact he hates Islam (amongst other religions)? I that’s the case, he cannot be racist for hating a religion which has people from multiple races and ethnicities? So “pray tell” where you get the idea that pat is a racist?

Has he ever referred to a race in a derogatory way?

The Roma are a race. Here you go.

 I’m waiting for the next rant about ‘atheists of colour’ or maybe the KKK or white atheists posing as muslims. This is getting tedious…. I think I’ll go and cut my toenails.

Yes trying to play the race card when no one else want to play

It’s an interesting yet tiresome phenomenon to watch someone who is backed into a corner revert to such feral tactics as racial accusations and blaming some form of hidden agenda by those of an opposing race. It sort of nullifies the argument in my book.

Bear in mind they just accused someone who is Asian of being a Muslim in disguise rather than Hindu because “I look Muslim”.

1. I highly doubt it is xenophobic to dislike religion. If that is the case, a lot of people in this group would be (in your sense of the word) xenophobic. 
2. I’m not arguing with you. Parties like BNP and UKIP are probably no good for Britain. Howeve
r, immigration is out of hand. I was speaking to a Portuguese friend of mine and she understood why parties like UKIP and BNP are gaining a lot more support. It’s because there are a few immigrants who come here just to bum on the dole, and, like the nazis in the 1930’s these parties prey on bad news of a specific sector of society. 
3. I don’t know why the fuck you are on about conspiracy theories? 
4. The reason you think of a middle eastern person when you think of Islam is because the religion is predominantly in the Middle East. What’s the first type of person you think of when you think of Buddhism? Hinduism? Christianity? Your point is invalid because the majority of religions have a majoritarian ethnicity attached to it.
See the way I have seen it, you are the only one here who has said anything about race. Everyone has been debating over religion and you keep mentioning race. Again the funny thing is, if you dislike religion you are a bigot in your use of the word. See I don’t care what race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preferences and surprising even religion is, I will treat you equally. Does that still make me a xenophobic bigot because I agree with the views of a person you again claim is a xenophobic bigot?

I referred to the common idea that Taqqiyah simply allows Muslims to lie as a conspiracy theory. Taqqiyah is a rule among the Shia Muslims that allow them to break the rules of Islam under duress and not for personal profit.

India and Indonesia ALONE account for 50% of the world’s Muslims If the entire South of Asia is added on? Most Muslims look like well… Me not like Osama Bin Laden. Weird right?

If you paid attention to people of colour who keep saying this you would know this. That the majority of Muslims are more likely to belong to South and South East Asia. But yeah not so bad as objections go.

Good work Avicenna. I have to give it to you, you’re like a ‘Duracell Bunny of Colour’ no matter how boring you are. The Taqqiyah thing is an anti-Muslim conspiracy theory? Are you sure? Or is that a lie?http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

Yeah the religion of peace is a well known Islamophobic website.

See how many times you can slip in the phrase ‘people of colour’ into your next reply. 

s a ‘man of diluted colour’ I have to say I’ve been so far disappointed with your statements. Does that make me racist?

is white not a colour to?

Yes and if white atheists had to demonstrate their atheist chops to be taken seriously we would be worried about that too.

Hey, _____ you could be right you know! Should I be as easily offended as Avicenna too? I really must develop a thinner skin and sense of paranoia.

Pointing out bigotry = Paranoia

 jesus mary moses allah and mohammads sake (piss be apon them) go away

You do realise I never considered these characters real? By the many arms of Vishnu….

can we have this pro-islam appologetic evangilist fake removed I have heard his ”your a racist” far to much today.

Avicenna, what happened to ‘people of colour’? I must say I’m disappointed. While you are clearly an idiot your biggest flaw is that you are a delusional, repetitive, paranoid, ignorant bore. And if that makes me racist in your confused blinkered view then, hey, you got me. Bye, bye.


So yes. I am a fake atheist. I am a Muslim pretending to be a Hindu so I could leave Hinduism and become an atheist so that I could earn $2 a day writing in order to bring down atheism from inside by my writing about divisive issues and controversial people and outright daftness. It’s okay if I am burning down  Ken Ham’s idiot ideas, but when I apply the same to atheists?

I am told that I am not a real atheist.

And the joke is through this entire debate, I never once mentioned anything apart from “perhaps we shouldn’t be encouraging bigots as prominent members of our community lest we normalise the idea that bigotry is okay as a stance.” and in response to what credentials I had I merely stated… 13 years in the Middle East.

It is quite simple. In order to be an atheist I have to treat this as a competition at times. It isn’t enough to say I don’t believe in gods and have my words taken seriously. I literally had someone go “Well I lived in a Muslim country for 10 years and they are all dicks”  Really? You couldn’t find one Muslim  to associate with? I have to beat the “traditional atheist” and prove my stances are stronger. But first I have to prove that I am an atheist. The go to argument for people who want to denounce me is “Fake Atheist, Secret Muslim”.

And I got those with regards to the piece I wrote about Palestine and Israel because I didn’t portray Palestinians as fanatical death seekers and rather pointed out the secular problems with the conflict and then pointed out how fundamentalists on both sides take advantage of the conflict. And I didn’t even think that was all that controversial.

So my question to Jaclyn Glenn is this. I am sure you won’t read any of the comments and messages I have put up here. But there is a purpose to having so many. It’s to demonstrate how far are atheists willing to sink to simply push through a populist notion. Where we have to weigh up the value of a higher profile atheist versus someone less visible. Does the need to bash Islam come before the need to be honest and promote ideas that are verifiably correct rather than stuff we just made up to make Islam look scarier and spread more fear and distrust about Muslims? Does the need to bash Islam come before diversity and listening to minority atheists. How low are we willing to go?

Who do you think creates the rifts? The person who has to prove his atheism and who has to fight and argue to be part of a movement unless he shuts up and follows the party line of gross ignorance and xenophobic ideals when it comes to Islam.

Must I stay quiet about this? You had so much commentary about the call out culture of atheists, but is this something that we should hide? Maybe these people are a minority.

Do you think it is acceptable that in order to be taken seriously I have to defend my actual lack of belief in a god? That the conversation effectively deteriorated into “Fuck this! You are a fake atheist! You have to be a Muslim!”

Do you think its acceptable that the first response to a person of colour is to question their atheism and denote ulterior motives to their beliefs? Do you think it is acceptable that conspiracy theory has become the equivalent of secular superstition?

And do you think I made this rift or am merely putting up sign posts? Maybe I shouldn’t call out the bigotry and xenophobia among atheists. Maybe I should keep silent.

The rifts always existed, it’s just that most people were too polite, too alone and too powerless to point them out.

Ah fuck it! You got me!

My real name is Ibn Sina and I am a famous Islamic Golden Age Polymath come to the future to destroy Atheism through blogging and deep rifts! I FOOLED YOU ALL!


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  1. smrnda says

    One recurring theme in all of these snotty remarks is ‘I don’t care that Pat has racist views. I am an atheist, and I care that he is an atheist.’ I really don’t get that. There are plenty of atheists *without* such racist baggage, so why the special attachment?

    I also don’t get the ‘he’s OUR asshole’ argument either. If I’m in a group with an asshole, either the asshole goes or I go, and if the asshole goes, better for the group.

    With the whole idea of “when I think Muslim, I think Middle Eastern'” – I’m almost getting sick of the term middle eastern, as I’ve heard the label slapped on people from Morocco to India. It seems like just a new term for ‘brown people.’ Does anyone check the stats? Indonesia has a lot of Muslims.

  2. antiphola says

    Hi there, Avicenna. It´s so frustrating, but bigotry and stupidity go together most of the time. No amount of rational arguing will ever change these people. Don´t waste too much time on trying. Greetings from a really small town in Germany

  3. says

    One recurring theme in all of these snotty remarks is ‘I don’t care that Pat has racist views. I am an atheist, and I care that he is an atheist.’ I really don’t get that.

    Especially since these are the same people who will wank on and on about how atheism is “nothing more than the lack of belief in gods.”

    Whence the tribalism, then??

  4. says

    I welcome hindu’s, buddhist’s and followers of jainism but muslim’s I do not. Islam preaches hate and intolerance […]

    That “sproing” noise you heard was my last irony meter going to its reward. Because, you know, “we tolerate everyone except intolerant people.”

  5. Yaron says

    I can certainly understand the concept of an idea or a quote being able to stand by themselves, but that’s not the case when the discussion of them involves whoever said them, and within a known context.

    So when someone tells you:

    Since you can’t separate him from the idea in the quote I’m really not interested in talking to you any more. Because I could say exactly what that quote says. And mean it.


    Regardless of who said it the words are pretty awesome.


    “He’s an asshole, but he’s OUR asshole.”

    This is very wrong.

    If you get an idea in a vacuum, you can usually relate to it in a vacuum. It doesn’t matter who else says it or why (well, except, and here is the “usually” part, except if the idea causes hurt and damage as it’s used in real life even if it sounds good in theory. In those cases ignoring that and talking about the theory is still very very problematic).

    But when you get a specific quote from a specific source then there’s a huge difference between “this is right, I agree” and “I agree with the idea but am very much against the context it came with in this case”. The former doesn’t show just accepting the theoretical idea, but also of the person/group expressing it and in the context they expressed it in.

    I really have a hard time seeing how the people you quoted don’t get that.

    Here, example time, the first I found in a quick search.
    One point I see atheists discussing is that a lot of politicians try to appeal to a religious base, making religious claims and excuses for their actions, which allow them to push agendas with a lot more support than is warranted because many religious people don’t critically judge religious claims. These are atheistic, and also secular, talkpoints. We all agree that religious politicians abusing the religion of the population to pass self-serving laws is a bad thing, and that it’s of course one of the many problems with religion.

    So, here, out of context, this quote from a book by someone who obviously also agrees:

    But worse than all are the devastations which are brought about by the abuse of religious convictions for political purposes. One can really not proceed too sharply against those wretched profiteers who like to see in religion an instrument which may render them political, or rather commercial, services. These impudent liars, however, shout their creed into the world with a stentorian voice so that the other sinners can surely hear it, but not in order to die for it, if necessary, but in order to live better. For one single political job they offer the meaning of an entire faith for sale;

    Not maybe from a pure atheist side, but a good secular-government supporting quote. Atheists can stand beside this regardless of whether the one saying it is an atheist, a secular-humanist, or a religious person, since it calls for less religion in government and less abuse of religious beliefs by politicians.

    So we can all just support the quote, “regardless of who said the words”, with no interest in talking about his political views since we can “separate him from the idea”. Right? After all even if he is an asshole, at least for his views on politicians abusing religious belief in this quote from Mein Kampf, it’s obvious that Adolf Hitler “is OUR asshole”. Yes?

    If no, then what do these people think the difference is? Just one of scale? We shouldn’t care what the person’s political views are as long as he’s only responsible for less than X amount of hurt and damage due to them? We don’t care who said the words as long as he isn’t universally reviled over a Y amount?

  6. A Hermit says

    “I welcome hindu’s, buddhist’s and followers of jainism but muslim’s I do not”

    Kind of like this guy…

  7. Konradius says

    When Pat started he was actually quite an interesting voice. However he slowly slipped into the racist he now is. I can understand people behaved like proverbial frogs and stayed with him longer than they should have. But at this point the water is all gone and the vapour is actually turning into a plasma.
    Furthermore I am quite the fan of Maryam Namazie. She can tell like no other the way she is repelled by extremists both at the left and right of the political spectrum.

  8. says

    When Pat started he was actually quite an interesting voice. However he slowly slipped into the racist he now is.

    Racism isn’t something one adopts overnight; usually it’s something that one hides (because usually they know it’s wrong) and eventually gains the self-confidence to wear it openly. I’m guessing Pat felt this way all along and, once he got enough of a fan-base, started to let the mask slip a bit.

  9. thetalkingstove says

    Why are you defending religion when you should be highlighting it’s failings

    This chump apparently can’t tell the difference between defending religion and defending religious people who are subject to bigotry.

    Is this where atheism as a movement leads? To support for anyone who is anti-religion, regardless of anything else they say or do? Depressing.

  10. Al says

    Pat’s now cheering on Israel’s assault on Palestine, saying that it has not been heavy enough. Wow.

  11. Al says

    Wow. Condell has recently stated that the Palestinians are responsible for the deaths of their own civilians because Hamas were elected. That’s pretty much exacty the same kind of logic bin Laden and al Qaeda used to justify killing civilians. What an appalling human being Condell is.

  12. carlie says

    Your posts are always so thorough and powerful. Thank you for taking the time to dissect it like that.

  13. jedibear says

    I’m going to argue that Avicenna > Pat.

    And I say that despite being occasionally irritated by Avi’s idiosyncratic use of punctuation.

    Why? Avicenna has a rarer experience on which to draw. Pat Condell just has being all angry-ranty. Nothing original or worthwhile to say, especially on the subject of Islam (I can get the same.

    So if we have to have Deep Rifts, and I think we do, I’d rather keep Pat on the other side of the Rifts.

  14. jedibear says

    My parenthetical got cut out. Irritating. I was saying I can get the same level of analysis that Pat Condell gives on Muslims/Islam from Fox News.

  15. Aasiyah says

    Acceptable mask?? What mask ?? You probably mean the mask Obama wears, when he bullshits the world on the peace loving guy he is and the peace he stands for, while he’s army rapes kills and mutilate defenceless muslim women and children in their homes, cause he had a gut feeling weapons of mass destruction was hidden under the women’s hijaab or hidden amongst the kids toy cars..And he’s nation stands watching in admiration with a standing evasion.. Your serious source about Islam ??? Created by ?? The creator’s got their head so far up their ass, they can’t even smell their own crap..
    And why would a site that hates Islam need a donation ??
    “If you have a question about the site, then you may want to check the FAQ page first to see if it is something that has already been addressed.  We are pretty laid back about donations, but they are appreciated.  If you would like to contribute to the cause financially, then please see our Donations page.”

    Laid back on donations killed the actual serious facial expression I had..Donations for what cause exactly or for who??

    I’ve never seen a website needing money just to create hatred towards muslims !! Unless there’s outfits needed for the concert with a live band that needs payment after their show on how to hate a muslim ..or maybe a workshop with refreshments so you can take down pointers on how to kill a muslim..

    But I truly loved the little P.S note given..

    their PO Box so that we can keep our location private:

    The Religion of Peace
    PO Box 682342
    Marietta, GA  30068

    Checks made to: The Religion of Peace


    June 2014 Total: $405 

    All Donations are Confidential

    “”””Your contribution will not be publicized in any form or fashion.  TROP, in fact, receives no information about you other than your e-mail address and donation amount.”””

    We do not maintain a database of donors, nor do we engage in future fundraising.

    Now I’m rolling on the floor almost dead from laughter, $405 don’t u think that’s abit much to ask for just you could hate a muslim a little more tomorrow then you did yesterday ? Or is it the payment given of actually terminating a muslim and never having to deal with them again ?? Assassination payments done in confidentiality so that no one may ever find out that you are a murderer..Hmmm now that sounds more convincing, and yet we are known as terrorist..

    Again I ask $405 for what again ?? Do I get a free toy and a happy meal after payments done ??
    How do you know what exactly you paying for ?? No receipts no refunds no free cap, but hey look “Russian breaking news reports” : 1000 Palestinians kids and women dead,aaahh $405 well spent..Payment receipt received..

    ‎10430614_702812466458495_1788244640_n.mp4 (5.6 MB)

  16. noxiousnan says

    Calm down Aasiyah, you’re going to spring a sprocket, and you’re aiming at the wrong person. Avicenna doesn’t promote that site. He was incredulous that some idiot bigot used it as a source for info on Islam:

    Good work Avicenna. I have to give it to you, you’re like a ‘Duracell Bunny of Colour’ no matter how boring you are. The Taqqiyah thing is an anti-Muslim conspiracy theory? Are you sure? Or is that a lie?http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

    Yeah the religion of peace is a well known Islamophobic website

    That last line is Avi commenting on the source of the emailer.

  17. Nick Gotts says

    Furthermore I am quite the fan of Maryam Namazie. She can tell like no other the way she is repelled by extremists both at the left and right of the political spectrum. – Konradius@7

    Condell is of course a vile racist, but you should be aware that Maryam Namazie is a devoted member of the Worker Communist Party of Iran, which is openly anti-democratic. She followed the party line in supporting the recent military coup in Egypt, and AFAIK, has not voiced a word of criticism of the epidemic of arrests, suppression of free expression and death sentences on trumped-up charges there.

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