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Jan 12 2014

Ken Ham takes on atheists, progressive Christians and Bill Nye

Ham’s debating Bill Nye.

We all know this, we all got the news. Ham vs. Nye, Dr. Dino’s successor as “Creationist Of the Day” vs. The Science Guy. My take on it? Bill’s not going to achieve anything.

Science does not progress by debate, Either Bill Nye has to be packing some serious debate firepower or Ham’s going to apply the Gish Gallop and there is literally no defence since it’s effectively vomitting fallacious information in such a volume that it’s impossible to refute.

Science does not progress by debate because debate promotes debaters. If you can debate that the moon is made of cheese and so our astronauts must not be lactose intolerant and your opponent is sufficiently incompetent, then the moon is made out of cheese. Science functions by evidence and eschewing evidence is leaving science’s most powerful tool out of a fight and enabling the creationist’s biggest tool to function.

Ignorance is a weapon, on Creationist turf you are preaching to the ignorant. No elegant solution will sway them. These people are but flesh and faith and the more deluded. There is literally no evidence you can demonstrate that will make them understand the position. To them the world is 6000 years old, we all came from Noah and any  evidence to the contrary is satanic. Entire cultures and civilisations are ignored to maintain their primitive world view.

But Christians are tired of Ham too. The Unfundamentalist Christians” blog takes a more sensible Christian view on why Ken Ham is bad and is setting back science, promoting ignorance and creating more Christians who cannot understand how the world works. And Ken doesn’t like criticism.

Apparently they call this sort of thing ‘Progressive Christianity.’ I guess that means ‘evolving Christianity’–whatever the secular world believes about where they came from, you accept that as infallible and then change their assumed fallible Word of God to fit! So sad. In many ways these sort of people are more dangerous to Christianity than the atheists.

Yes. Yes they are.

They are dangerous to Ken Ham’s fundie brand of Christianity because they show a way where Christianity can survive contact with the modern world through the use of allegory. That is deadly to the fundamentalist because it is an alternative way to interpret his book.

Let’s get this straight. Ken Ham thinks that the absolute Zenith of Human Progress was 2000 to 3500 years ago in the Middle Eastern Israel/Palestine region. That the achievements of Every Single Civilisation is born out of here irrespective of if those civilisations pre-dated them or achieved greater things. He thinks the entire world is a product of a single family that survived a flood.

This is like arguing with someone who thinks magic is real specifically because they cannot cross into Platform 9 3/4. The lack of evidence only confirms their belief. The more evidence we pile the more they attest to the power of magic. You literally are not going to change this person’s mind unless they suffer a crisis of faith. Ken Ham’s supporters are not going to change, their kids might but not his paying customers who are emotionally, monetarily and spiritually invested.

Note–the typical personal attack; no research cited (at least AiG had a professional group–America’s Research Group–conduct real research into why kids are leaving the church and published it in the book ‘Already Gone’); only one verse of Scripture referred to (Matthew 22); just this person’s fallible opinions to justify holding man’s word as infallible and God’s Word as fallible.

What research must he cite to prove that Ken Ham is a luddite Jackass who can barely understand Darwin let alone all the progress Evolutionary Theory and Biology has made since?

Oh Biblical Research. Sure! Ken Ham will never realise that the real reason the Church is losing it’s grasp is the fact that the fundies unwillingness to consider that Bronze Age Jews were NOT the height of Civilisation And Power (Which explains why the Romans Kerb Stomped them in the Bible. Not to mention the fact that Historically, Jews were not considered a power and often had to pay fealty to various Invaders ranging from the Assyrians, the Hittites, the Egyptians, the Macedonians, The Seulecids, The Romans. Which is an entirely different historical perspective to “Jews had magic powers”).

That reality is far more impressive, subtle and interesting than the enormous amount of magic Ken has to invoke to make his world view exist.

Of course, such people ignore Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 19 (and many others)–all references back to a literal Genesis concerning the gospel and doctrines like marriage.

And slavery and rape and genocide. Come now Ken, you can’t have the delicious peanut butter of gay bashing without the gigantic dog turd that is the justification of slavery.

But, I do agree with the last line of this silly blog:

“…in the words of John Wycliffe, in the end the truth will conquer.” 

Wycliffe was burned at the stake because of his stand on the Word of God.

Yes, and his stand was anathema to the radicals and would be anathema to Ken Ham.

Theologically, his preaching expressed a strong belief in predestination that enabled him to declare an “invisible church of the elect”, made up of those predestined to be saved, rather than in the “visible” Catholic Church, this would in effect doom Ken Ham’s habit of promoting Missionary Work and create a god of “dickery” who had doomed people to hell through predestination.

Wycliffe was also a promoter of secularisation and separation of the power of the Church from the State.

To Wycliffe poverty was an ideal. Ken Ham’s $130,000 a year puts him in the Upper Middle Class Territory putting him in the top 10% of American Earners. And Wycliffe meant “Real” poverty rather than “First World” Poverty. A far cry from most Protestant priests in the USA.

And last but not least. John Wycliffe was not burnt at the stake. He died of a stroke. What was left of his body was exhumed 2 months later and burned. He was burned because his stance on your god was progressive and because he called for humility and a Papacy and priesthood that was more like Jesus and the Apostles, he was burned because he made knowledge of the Bible accessible to all and removed it’s mystery.

He was burned for being Anti-Roman Catholic Orthodoxy.

Ken Ham wants to invoke himself as a John Wycliffe, burning at the stake of the Evolutionary Establishment for daring to tell the truth. When in reality Ken Ham’s interpretation of the Bible doesn’t mean an iota of difference in the discussion of Evolution, the fact that his repeated attempts to gain state power for his Biblical views would be “Anti-Wycleffian”, his amassment of wealth is “Anti-Wycleffian” and his usage of the Bible to push Christiianity counts as Missionary work which is “Anti-Wycleffian”.

This makes Ken a “hypocrite” and there are more exhortions against being a hypocrite.

So to end this post: 

“The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.”

(Psalms 119:160)

Rape and Genocide is okay because they really were evil. Honest. Even the babies were evil. But not the female ones. They were just hot.

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

(John 1:14)

Any attack on the WORD is an attack on Christ the WORD.

 Which is why people get burned at stakes Mr. Ham. Which is why people no longer get burned at stakes too. Because the word of god is a guideline for most people.

Ultimately a debate won’t solve this. Ken Ham I feel will only benefit from this, unless Bill Nye completely crushes him. Completely leaves him floundering like a fish. But he cannot do that with Truth or Evidence, Ken Ham deals with superstition and fairytales and magic. You can demonstrate the most elegant proofs known to man and Ken and his audience will never get them.

So to Bill Nye I have only one advice.

μη δωτε το αγιον τοις κυσιν μηδε βαλητε τους μαργαριταςυμων εμπροσθεν των χοιρων μηποτε καταπατησουσιν αυτουςεν τοις ποσιν αυτων και στραφεντες ρηξωσιν υμας

Do not give that which is holy to dogs, do not cast pearls before swine lest they trample them and gore you.

See Ken? I can quote scripture too.

7 comments

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  1. 1
    Al Dente

    Ham thinks the literal “word of God” is more important than the message in those words. Jesus talked about loving our fellow humans, not about rejecting reality for a 2500 year old creation myth.

  2. 2
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    OTOH, Bill Nye debating Ken Ham may expose people who would’nt usually be exposed to science and logic and atheism to that and some good arguments that just may make some of the not so committed or unaware folks think and learn. It’ll raise awareness and attention and thought in some listeners even if not all.

    I think it’s clearly Bill Nye’s decision and up to him and maybe, it’ll do more good than harm? Wecan but hope eh?

  3. 3
    Fassion Fruit

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  4. 4
    Brian Taft

    I love how the Creation Museum is all about upholding good Christian values and yet think it is OK to give out prizes to anyone who will take Ken Ham’s book “THE LIE” and go to local zoos, aquariums, museums, and local parks… hold up this book in front of exhibits, and snap a photo! As a Christian I am disgusted by this unethical and sinful practice! It goes completely against Exodus 20:16! Its a promotion of SIN!

    http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/creation-museum/2012/12/18/enter-the-lie-photo-contest/

  5. 5
    Ashley haworth-roberts

    Avicenna

    Ken Ham has been moaning about this blog post on his Facebook page (though he does not supply a link so I had to search for it):
    https://www.facebook.com/aigkenham

    He tells his supporters what to think ie that you need prayer, that secularists like you wish to brainwash young children with evolutionary ‘lies’, and then urges his readers to bring busloads of kids to his Creation Museum this year.

    Ham also accused you of an ‘expletive’ against him – apparently Jackass is an ‘expletive’. Well, it’s the truth either way.

    I imagine if you went to his facebook page and responded he would immediately ban you (as happened to me within 24 hours and I was not even rude).

    “You can demonstrate the most elegant proofs known to man and Ken and his audience will never get them.” On rare occasions YECs do change their view (whilst remaining Christians which is fine). But Nye’s aim must be to inttelectually disembowel Ham (even if most of his supporters don’t or won’t see it and Ham spins the outcome in his favour).

    Ashley Haworth-Roberts

  6. 6
    Ashley haworth-roberts

    Intellectually disembowel is what I meant…

  7. 7
    Avicenna

    That’s fine, he is impolite and is quotemining me to flog his museum.

    Isn’t that a sign you made it in the Atheist World?

  1. 8
    Do I get a special Atheist Prize for being Quote Mined by Ken Ham? » A Million Gods

    […] The Expletive Deleted can be seen here. Was it something good? Did I call Ken Ham a pidgeon chested mudwallower? A bounder, a cad and a thorough scoundrel? Did I call him a thorough scamp? […]

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