Some people really don’t get why something is bad or harmful or not helpful to everyone involved.
Thunderfoot… for those who are unaware was and indeed still is a big deal among the atheist community. Back in the great creationist wars, he was in effect the biggest anti-creationist on the Youtubes.
A big deal all in all.
But then came his sudden and (IMHO) inexplicable assault on feminism and women in general. From his brief stint at FTB before I joined up resulting in one weird interview and the beginning of the Anti-FTB malarky to his frankly one sided take on Anita Sarkeesian.
There are many things wrong here.
It starts by bringing up a video I have posted here and indeed liked as a way of showing how humour can be used around rape and indeed to show that Indian women and men are fighting against rape in their own ways too. “It’s All Your Fault” was pretty much designed to show you what the average Indian woman deals with.
Until that is… it gets to “Teach Your Sons to Not Rape”, then the conversation changes and Thunderfoot puts his foot down.
“Don’t Teach Me What to Wear, Teach Men not to Rape” is a remarkable idea that perhaps we should focus less on blaming women for their outfits and more about focussing on men committing rape and figuring out why rape is so widespread as a crime. If we are to take the Swedish incidence for rape as indicative of the western world roughly 20 to 25% of women are raped in their lifetime. We are using Sweden since it’s attitude towards women is one of the most progressive on the planet and many a person quotes it as an example of “high” rape stats inspite of feminism.
I am aware of report rates versus posted rates. Pakistan has an incredibly low rape rate and that’s because it’s actual report rate is just so low. I know that India’s rape rates are probably a lot lot higher than what we see being reported and that cultural shame, police apathy and various other factors simply make reporting a rape a non-issue for many women. It is simply easier to shut up about rape than to fight the crime.
We do not explain consent to our young men and women.
And what Thunderfoot has done is blundered twice. His first one is thinking that personal responsibility and explanations of consent somehow don’t reduce rape (many a rapist has become one on accident and is surprised that women considered their actions rape. Let’s be clear here. Teaching consent classes to both young men and women stops rapes. Fewer Victims, Fewer Rapists and people have more sex and are honest about it. You may be able to communicate the desire to have sex with naught but the language of flowers, coquettish laughs and fan etiquette but I am a fucking idiot and require an explicit conversation about it.
The second blunder is he has dropped in on a mainly female dominated argument in India. A place widely regarded to be in the worst 10 places on the planet to be a woman. In effect, Mr. Foot has no idea what life is like in India but has decided to tell those women that their plans to change Indian men by teaching them about what constitutes rape is “bad”.
We don’t Teach Our Children not to Rape. BOLLOCKS!
This as I know boils down to ”Sex with a woman if she doesn’t want to have it is rape, Rape is bad”. People are strange little things and you often have to explicitly specify all the little ways that women don’t want to have sex and how some behaviour will get women to say “yes” when they don’t want to.
We portray the rapist as the stranger with a knife who breaks into your house, pins you down and has his way with you.
But to see what rape is “really” like we must look at male rape victims. Most are raped and molested by someone they know (usually male) and in a position of trust.
You are more likely to be raped by a member of your own family or friends than by a random stranger. For every Delhi Rape there are probably more rapes caused by “that uncle”. And the biggest thing done would probably be just covering up his actions. In fact we routinely show young men that it’s possible to get away with rape and that it’s “harmless fun” in some cases.
We teach men not to murder and steal too! How’s that working out for us?
Murder is going down. The problem here is Thunderfoot thinks murder and theft occur in a vaccuum devoid of social reasons for them. Murder has a ginormous amount of reasons ranging from greed to anger. Theft too, some steal due to psychiatric issues, some steal due to economic pressure.
An educative approach to these crimes involves looking at the reasons why these crimes occurs and at a fundamental level working to eliminate or at least mitigate the bulk of those reasons.
And likewise doing the same to rape is sensible. We have seen massive progress with falling rates of violent crime across most of the western world and it’s not due to “guns” but due to stopping people needing to steal in the first place.
Why Teach Me to Lock My Doors, Why Not Teach Criminals Not To Steal?
Because locked doors make it harder to steal and deter the more casual thieves of opportunity. But this is a good analogy because Thunderfoot then carries on and accidentally makes an analogy that I have used before.
If you wear a Tuxedo and are mugged, the police don’t suggest that it was due to your tuxedo. They don’t say “It’s your fault for being out there”. They don’t say “maybe you are a philanthropist”. After all you are dressed like one, and philanthropists do like giving money away to poor people. Are you sure it was a mugging not a donation?
The fact of the matter is that most people who get mugged are not wearing flashy clothes. Most people these days have nice cellphones and it’s a fair bet that most people out on the lash are packing something expensive. You aren’t being mugged for your fancy phone, you are being mugged and the fancy phone is a bonus.
You aren’t getting raped because you are dressed in a short skirt and high heels, you are getting raped irrespective of what you wear.
And we do teach kids not to mug people. Are you kidding me? Has Thunderfoot not watched television growing up? Inner City Youth Outreach is a goddamn trope. Troubled kids learning something through either a new driven and perky teacher or a jaded, washed up expert given a last chance is a bloody TV trope for a goddamn reason. Because there exist people who go into places with low socio-economic status and try and build respect and community and to uplift the youths out of the cycle of crime. Many societies try and teach criminals to change and indeed the ideal of a prison system is to not just punish but to rehabilitate prisoners into productive members of society and make them change who they are.
So if we are teaching young inner city kids respect and to try and not fall down the same pit falls as others into the life of crime ™ then why on earth are we not teaching young men to respect women and not falll down the same pit falls as others?
People have different sexual drives
I quote this point because his next point is just insultingly bad.
And to make a point here. I don’t have any opinions on 50 Shades of Grey. I really don’t. I think it’s expanded many a person’s ideas on what sex means and has made women and men a lot more experimental. That’s a good thing. I also have been told (I haven’t read the book myself) that the book doesn’t promote a safe sex environment to which I responded with the “fantasy of porn”. It’s a fantasy and in that consent is perfect in all cases. That’s fine, you shouldn’t be taking sex advice from a work of fiction. I am sure a lot of women and men went up and read about the terms of BDSM and indeed safety involved.
I am well aware of what sexual fantasies are primarily because I know one of the most common fantasies out there is the rape fantasy. Where a woman or a man wants to pretend to be raped. Not the “real rape” but the idea of a loss of control to someone else who dominates you is rather a seductive idea. I know rape victims who have this fantasy and struggle to delineate between the horror of their experience and the fantasy.
I know that Tiga has a rape fantasy and it’s something she has never really been able to find someone to act out with. I dated another girl with it and was introduced to the framework of such a fantasy (the usage of traffic light colours to control, the usage of safe words and start words that sort of thing). But in all this we must remember that even while acting out a rape fantasy where no means yes, the woman or man in that has designated a system by which they can act out this fantasy and indeed lose control in to someone they trust who won’t exceed the hard limits and who they trust around the conditional limits a person has on their sex life.
Having a sex drive that fantasises rape in this way does not mean you want to rape a person really or to be raped.
You Cannot Teach People to Not Be Gay, why do you think you can teach people to not rape?
Did you just compare homosexuals and the “Pray the Gay Away” Industry which is based exclusively on religious fear and shame to rapists? Did you just say that a rapist is no more able to stop raping women than a gay man is capable of not being attracted to men?
As the scorpion said to the frog, “I Cannot Help It, It’s In My Nature”.
The young women in the original video are decrying a culture of hatred of women so deep that at nearly every stage of life, women are mistreated. From female infanticide to grope and rape culture to the abandonment of the elderly women. And Thunderfoot has stated that it’s not possible to stop rape, because the rapist has a sex drive that is turned on by rape and is no different from a gay man.
At what point did he think this argument holds any water?
Sean Hannity Show Clips! Sean thinks teaching men to not rape means educating them in the middle of a rape
I would put that piece up as Parody. Teaching men to not rape means teaching them from a young age. It’s preventing them from becoming rapists by teaching them to consider other people’s feelings and ideas and teaching them about consent. Now in this there will still be men who “rape” but there will be a lot fewer out there.
Mate, Ted Bundy is a Serial Fucking Killer. A man who had a sociopathic thrill of rape and murder. Are you fucking comparing men to Ted Fucking Bundy?
If you are an MRA mate you are doing precious fucking little by using him as an example of “men who act on their sexuality”.
Also? Serial Killers are Rare. They are so rare that the presence of one captures the public imagination. A man with a pathological need to kill. A man who doesn’t kill for wealth or profit but for the act of killing that brings him some personal pleasure. So much so that we create entire mythos around them such as Hannibal Lecter. In fact if I recall correctly, Ted Bundy is the inspiration of Hannibal. Or indeed “Dexter” (BTW? Am I the only one who gets the pun in the name? Dexter is the Opposite of Sinister? Sinister is Left and Dexter is very nearly always Right?)
The majority of people who are raped and murdered are not raped or/and murdered by serial killers but by bog standard blokes. To portray all rapists as Ted Bundy is to hide the fact of the truth of sexual assault. It’s the reason why Catholic Priests got away with sexual assault for so long. Because in people’s minds they didn’t look like slavering rapists but like respectable members of society.
Compares Rape To Sexual Predators in Cars
We teach children to not talk to strangers who are not in positions of trust. AKA don’t talk to the man in the car, talk to the policeman instead.
And again I repeat. Your child is more likely to be molested by someone you know or indeed a parent than some stranger in a car. The stranger danger fear is one born out of demonisation of the GLBT and the few tragic incidents where paedophiles have lured kids into vans and cars.
These cases make the news in a bigger way though and especially in British Culture due to Ian Brady and Myra Hindley who were a pair of serial killers operating in Yorkshire who kidnapped, tortured and raped kids. You can see it as the death of the innocence of childhood in British Culture. Where Enid Blytonesque adventures were replaced by a tight leash on children.
And such avoidance has not affected child molestation as much as we think it has because most child molestation occurred when people of trust in a community took advantage of that trust and utilised their power and untouchable social status to keep them safe from allegations. Person x couldn’t have molested little Timmy because Person x is an outstanding man! Timmy must be a liar with pants constantly on fire!
And considering child marriage was the norm in most cultures across the world and changes to laws has created statutory rape and paedophilia as a crime and indeed has caused normal behaviour to change one can say that “Don’t Have Sex with Minors” has been a rather effective message.
10% of Rape is Power, 90% of it is desire for sex
One would point out that the ability to take advantage of someone to immediately satiate a desire for sex is indicative of “power”.
Transition between Rape and Bad Sex
Like it or not such a transition exists.
Ah! What Mr. Foot suggests is that if a woman has bad sex she calls it rape. You know what? In all my sex life and that includes a fair few “Mini Avi is shy!” incidents (after one too many beers) have I had sex that was so atrocious that a woman thought “gee that was so bad that Avi should be in fucking prison”.
And the examples he gives? I gave consent and asked them to stop halfway through but they didn’t?
That Is Rape. Consent can be withdrawn you know. It’s not a roller coaster. Once you start you can stop having sex. And I am afraid what ensues in this portion is just apologetics. Maybe you felt like you owed him something so that’s why you didn’t say no explicitly and in triplicate. Talak Talak Talak? Rapists listen if you say no three times!
This is just sickening. Especially considering his source material is the FUCKING BACKLASH TO SOMEONE BEING SODOMISED TO DEATH. Someone effectively got impaled rectally and died from that. And Mr. Foot has utilised a painful period in Indian culture and a watershed for real change to bash those women who made the fucking video and by extension bash every single fucking woman who has such a story to tell.
Drunk or Not You Are Responsible for Your Own Actions! Accusing Random People for Rape if You Were Drunk and Wouldn’t Have Slept With Them If You Were Sober is Super Common!
The most common date rape drug is alcohol. Or what? Only roofies make you incapable of fighting off a rapist? More alcohol will have you pass out and not be able to fight off rapists. In one fucking fell swoop Mr. Foot decides that women who drink have it coming to them. Are you sure it was rape? Not Reduced Inhibitions that made you sleep with a Minger and now you want some “credit” back so you are going to bloody accuse them of rape?
Fucking hell man! Apparently in Mr. Foot’s head the real problem is women are all sadistic, shallow and vile human beings who use rape as an excuse for being sluts. AM I RITE GAIZ?
And he compares drinking and being out as a woman as equivalent to drinking and driving.
Oh and I beg to differ. It is slut shaming and victim blaming. If you were male and were mugged while drunk, no one would say that you started a fight and lost. People would sympathetically listen to you and take you to a hospital. Now compare that to being raped. And bear in mind, this is not rape in the west. We are talking about rape in India. Where there are no sympathetic policemen and hospital staff themselves may blame you for your incident. Thunderfoot picked on an Indian source.
Rape is not the victim’s fault! This statement reduces women’s agency and shows women have no control over their environment. Telling them this prevents women from minimising risk!
You shouldn’t let your child play outside! It’s your fault paedophiles got to him! You shouldn’t have left your door open when you nipped around to the neighbours!
Says no Copper Ever.
Rape is not the victim’s fault. Thunderfoot keeps showing up a list of methods that would reduce the risk of rape and frankly my question is “Do you think it’s acceptable that women have to take these extra precautions to stop rape” and “Why are we not changing society so that these precautions are unnecessary”.
I don’t think Mr. Foot understands what we are doing. We aren’t saying women shouldn’t pound Tequila, what we are saying is that no one should pound tequila till they pass out but if you do women should be just as safe as men and not HAVE to worry about rape. I want my kids to play outside without fear of paedophile kidnappers and murderers. And to do that we must do both. Not one or the other.
Do you know how fucking disgusting this is? It’s your fault you got raped? You didn’t do x, y or z enough?
This was what men were saying immediately after the Delhi rape. The “Bhaiya” method in that video? If you call a man your brother he cannot rape you and is sworn to defend you! Stay at home and never be around any men or women, best way to avoid getting raped IMHO.
How To Stop Rape TFoot Style
This should be good.
Your Body Language Makes You a Victim
No it does not. You are a victim of rape because a man can rape you and thinks he can get away with it because there is a good chance they can get away with it
Your body language means precisely dick. If you look confident, it doesn’t mean you won’t get raped.
Be like a wasp
Poor analogy, wasps and bees sting painfully and are hard to hit in the air despite the size difference. One quickly learns to fear them since they sting hard. And I am rather good at women’s anatomy. I am unaware of the venomous properties of women nor their innate armoury of weapons that make them a painful opponent. In addition the sting of a wasp has an almost mythological fear ingrained into us from a young age.
Do you think fear of wasps is universal? There are people who harvest honey from wild bees. Do you think they would fear your wasps when they WILLINGLY get stung so much their body destroys bee venom? We fear wasps because we fear the repercussions of fighting one since our flailing hands that we use to fight things are in effect massive targets.
You didn’t fight enough to stop rape. You didn’t physically inflict enough damage to your rapist so you got raped. Which is pretty logical. If you could physically harm your rapist sufficiently you wouldn’t have gotten raped in the first place. I mean if you fought off your would be murderer you wouldn’t have gotten murdered!
Either that or Mr. Foot thinks yellow and black clothes stop rape.
People fear me, I know that. I have fun with it because I know it makes people uncomfortable. Oh I am the cheeky fucker who when brought out at airport lines for “totally random searches” down my pants start flirting with the man who’s job it is to stare at my be-boxered genitals. Because for me it’s “fun”. Because I shouldn’t have to do that. I assume it makes their life a misery and I know it’s a dick move.
Women fear me in elevators. I assume it’s a closed space and/or they have a bad experience or know of a bad experience. That’s fine by me. I don’t think an elevator is a good place to strike up conversations with random strangers and honestly it is a 30 second ride and frankly I want to be out of the elevator because my presence in an elevator means I probably have somewhere I want to go along the vertical axis and to be distracted from my goal is rather pointless.
I don’t like the fact that the women judges me for being a potential criminal/terrorist/rapist. But there is absolutely nothing I can do to change her opinion of me apart from being friendly and if eye contact is made being as non-threatening as possible. Maybe in time she will treat some other man not as a potential rapist but as a human being but for that she has to have an experience.
Also? It’s like a minute or so of being regarded as a potential rapist, for fuck’s sake I have to go through life as a potential terrorist! A minute of being Schrodinger’s Rapist is hardly putting a crimp in your style to be fair.
I totally know what it’s like to fight a rapist off! I stumbled across a mountain lion!
Don’t Run From Big Predators. Look Big and Scary! This is a well known plan and is used to fight off everything but frankly self defence versus a human aggressor involves running. No martial art of self defence involves standing and fighting.
Sexual predators look for women who are weak and alone. By weak I mean physically less likely to fight back.
Sexual Abuse of the elderly is a “thing”. Sexual abuse of children is common too. Women in cultures with less freedom and less ability to get help and be taken seriously are more prone to rape.
You got raped because you trusted a man too much!
Dating Advice from Thunderfoot!
Don’t be too invested in a date, you can be raped by a man who takes advantage of you and lies!
I know of a person who’s love of a man turned abusive. It wasn’t a sudden change, it was slow and gradual. Slowly she was cut off from her friends and this man used her so badly until she finally left. She made amends with those she left and honestly I think it was an incredibly brave thing to face up to people who you think you harmed.
Women and men who are abused are loyal to their abusers often due to the systematic breakdown of self esteem that leaves them without any of the normal support mechanisms that allows us options.
Thunderfoot thinks date rape is common? It is but not as common as being raped by your boyfriend or husband.
Your Clothes Attract Rapists
Well not just clothes but apparently if you lick your lips you cause mad hormonal changes that turn men from docile upstanding citizens to the second coming of Ghenghis Khan.
Thunderfoot does men a great disservice here. Here we see his argument reduce the agency of men. That if a woman simply waggles her knickers in your direction, you will do anything she says or indeed lose control of your civility. Cockteasing Increases Rape, Flirting Increases Rape.
That is his message. Your eyes say yes but you say no, so I raped you because I only speak fluent eyes!
I think Thunderfoot has confused humans with Birds of Paradise. We do not get consent by interpretive gesture and display. I do not ask for consent for a procedure by interpretive dance but by a variety of levels of consent.
Let us take flirting for example. Let’s take a bar. A bar is a social setting where flirting can occur. That isn’t to say flirting cannot occur at other places. I have said to women who smiled at me “look I find you attractive and would like to ask you out, here is my number, call me if you like”. You are making a date to flirt. See? The bar is implied consent to flirt and the invitation on a date is an offer to flirt with this historical slice of dating history if she wants to at a time and location most appropriate to the situation.
Now a bar or a date you have implied consent to flirt. You have decided that the person you are talking to is a potential person for a relationship and so demonstrate your interest by flirting. This is non-verbal consent akin to walking into a doctor’s office and asking him for help with an issue. It is implied that you wish for his help and agree to a basic general history taking, your doctor may do an examination to which you provide verbal consent to. Surgical procedures require written consent and in some BDSM relationships the couple may stipulate an explicit contract with terms of agreement in such a form of consent.
Relationships can have all three forms of consent. And if I as a mere beta male of inferior proportions to the mighty Thunderfoot can understand this than so can most men.
Mixed Messages Are Bad
Yes, I agree. I think men should learn this important dictim. No means No, Maybe means No, Yes can mean No if you are coercive or threatening.
Don’t bank on mixed messages, be clear and be explicit. No woman I know has ever balked at an explicit stance but also be reasonable. You can be cheeky. Do you know how many women on the first date have said no to “So do I get a kiss goodnight and would you like to do this again?” with “No”. The worst I got was “Maybe next time and she said it was not a good fit”. No loss there, it’s sad to not gel on a date but frankly c’est la vie.
Why? Because my question had a way out. I have had women respond to that with “I don’t kiss on the first date” and gone “What about the second?” and just got a “Why don’t you wait and see?”. You can even flirt USING consent and come off as an astounding gentleman. We are not suggesting you draw up cYeontracts using a lawyer, we are suggesting being sensible and making sure you aren’t threatening or scaring people into doing things they are not comfortable with.
You can be explicit about your intentions. And if in doubt? Keep It Simple and Clear. That’s the best you can do as a man. If in doubt? Clarify.
Women would be more beautiful if they were not damaged by sexual assault
I am a cynic, I may be wrong but I read that as “Women with bad sexual histories are immediately wary of me because something makes them worry and I don’t like it”.
Victims of Sexual Assault and Rape are Not Good Sources of Advice
Instead we should listen to Thunderfoot’s theories based on mountain lion safety? Ladies? If you wear a mask on the back of your head the rapists will not know which direction you are facing and cannot ambush you.
Yes! Ignore what the victims of rape have to say! It’s not like ignoring what they say has harmed them in any way at all.
Pay no attention to the Man Behind The Curtain!
Because you know it’s on his video and mentioned repeatedly.
90% of women are raped by a known attacker. So more often than not the woman was raped by her “prince charming”. The man she trusted implicitly.
After all? Didn’t he pay attention to the Video He Was Bashing? It’s not rape if it’s your husband.
I seen things, I seen them with my eyes, I seen things, the are often in disguise
Dear Mr. Thunderfoot.
Even in India where we have goddamn tigers that are around 150 Kgs and move as fast as a race horse and are so stealthy all you can say is “OH SHIIII….” before they have leapt on you…. in this environment filled with deadly snakes and creatures that kill only a handful of people a year die. It is tragic but it is still a rarity.
In India sexual harassment is nearly universal and I have not met a single woman who was not harassed. And rape is common enough to be considered so normal. In fact women in India are torn between whether rape in marriage is rape or not because it’s so “normal”.
And yes, we do want women to experience the wonders of the world. I too have seen wonderful and indeed terrible things. And I too wish for women to experience the wonderful and be allowed to fight against the terrible. I LIKE a lot of India and I like some of the things here. And I want people to experience those things. I also wish Indians would stop trying to rape women. These are two things that overlap with what I want and I know that the rapes prevents women from enjoying the India that I love as much as I hate.
I too can write doggerel verse and soaring script to pluck at your heart strings and evoke feelings of manly acquaintance with the natural world and the risks I take. But I know for a fact that I cannot expect my risk taking behaviour to allow me to tell you to take more. I can wish you to experience what I experience but I cannot force you or belittle the lack of adventure in your heart.
Or indeed the fear of sexual assault and rape. Maybe one day we will live in a society where such fear is unfounded but frankly 1 in 5 women are raped in this day and age and 20% is a AWFULLY big number.
20% of Macho Macho Men do not get eaten by mountain lions. Or Tigers.
No what Mr. Foot does not get is this simple point. In order for a man to be safe we don’t have to do anything. We are safe. Automatically and Instantly and this is harmful too because we don’t listen to men who need help because “why would you need help”? What sort of a pussy man needs help?
What Mr. Foot is doing is taking the minority of rape victims and making it seem like they are the majority and implying that if women did things differently they could have avoided that rape. Yes. Hindsight is 20/20. If they didn’t make a left turn that day they may have not gotten raped. One of dozens of things may have stopped that rape.
The things that get women raped are things that are normal. Alcohol? You mean the stuff we blokes drink on the weekend down our pubs? Women shouldn’t drink that! And I noticed Sororities in his video being mentioned. While I do not understand them nor see the value in belonging to a fraternity/sorority I am sure men and women find some pleasure in being part of those things. Rather than say “being a sister in a sorority gets you raped” let’s say “how can we make things safer for such women” and “why are they in particular getting more raped”. Who is doing all this raping and why is no one stepping in to sort shit out?
That’s the thing. A woman cannot behave like a man in public because behaving like a man gets women raped. And that’s the bitter truth of all this. Women have to take extra precautions to be safe. We have to invent apps for our phones to make women feel safer. We have had to build extra infrastructure JUST to keep women from being groped in public. Do you know why women get their own seats? Because men used to grope women on buses. Oh you can make a fuss, but the groper just slinks away to grope another day. You still got groped and you still had to yell at some arsehole. Why can’t we just stop the groping? Nope! Got To Dress Like A Wasp And Sting Him! That’s the TFoot Way! I don’t think women should have special buses and train compartments. I think they should tough it out with us! But I also think women should not be groped and that the little evil of segregation at the moment to keep women safe from the “men” is a small price to pay. Maybe one day India will not need this. But for now? These are necessary to keep women safe. You may think these women need to look spikey and wasp like to scare men off but frankly they shouldn’t have to do this.
And I repeat this is India we are discussing. Because Thunderfoot responded to India I shall respond FROM India.
This doesn’t help anyone. It portrays women as bringing rape on themselves by acting like victims. It portrays rape victims as women with no sense of perspective and it portrays men as unthinking beasts.
In short it’s just bad for everyone. And the thing what makes it worse is that in context it is ESPECIALLY bad for Indian Women since this was a video in response to Indians.
And of all the women of the world, to hammer the women of India is just despicable. Or even to use the women of India to smack down women of other countries?
It’s just not helpful to anyone.
And to the men and women of All India Backchod? Well done guys, the fact we are having this discussion is thanks to you. We shouldn’t have needed it to have this discussion but your video made us discuss the issue and that can only mean progress.