Age of Kali – Thunderfoot – All India Backchod, Rape and Asking For It


Some people really don’t get why something is bad or harmful or not helpful to everyone involved.

Thunderfoot… for those who are unaware was and indeed still is a big deal among the atheist community. Back in the great creationist wars, he was in effect the biggest anti-creationist on the Youtubes.

A big deal all in all.

But then came his sudden and (IMHO) inexplicable assault on feminism and women in general. From his brief stint at FTB before I joined up resulting in one weird interview and the beginning of the Anti-FTB malarky to his frankly one sided take on Anita Sarkeesian.

But this?

There are many things wrong here.

It starts by bringing up a video I have posted here and indeed liked as a way of showing how humour can be used around rape and indeed to show that Indian women and men are fighting against rape in their own ways too. “It’s All Your Fault” was pretty much designed to show you what the average Indian woman deals with.

Until that is… it gets to “Teach Your Sons to Not Rape”, then the conversation changes and Thunderfoot puts his foot down.

“Don’t Teach Me  What to Wear, Teach Men not to Rape” is a remarkable idea that perhaps we should focus less on blaming women for their outfits and more about focussing on men committing rape and figuring out why rape is so widespread as a crime. If we are to take the Swedish incidence for rape as indicative of the western world roughly 20 to 25% of women are raped in their lifetime. We are using Sweden since it’s attitude towards women is one of the most progressive on the planet and many a person quotes it as an example of “high” rape stats inspite of feminism.

I am aware of report rates versus posted rates. Pakistan has an incredibly low rape rate and that’s because it’s actual report rate is just so low. I know that India’s rape rates are probably a lot lot higher than what we see being reported and that cultural shame, police apathy and various other factors simply make reporting a rape a non-issue for many women. It is simply easier to shut up about rape than to fight the crime.

We do not explain consent to our young men and women.

And what Thunderfoot has done is blundered twice. His first one is thinking that personal responsibility and explanations of consent somehow don’t reduce rape (many a rapist has become one on accident and is surprised that women considered their actions rape. Let’s be clear here. Teaching  consent classes to both young men and women stops rapes. Fewer Victims, Fewer Rapists and people have more sex and are honest about it. You may be able to communicate the desire to have sex with naught but the language of flowers, coquettish laughs and fan etiquette but I am a fucking idiot and require an explicit conversation about it.

The second blunder is he  has dropped in on a mainly female dominated argument in India. A place widely regarded to be in the worst 10 places on the planet to be a woman. In effect, Mr. Foot has no idea what life is like in India but has decided to tell those women that their plans to change Indian men by teaching them about what constitutes rape is “bad”.

We don’t Teach Our Children not to Rape. BOLLOCKS!

This as I know boils down to  “Sex with a woman if she doesn’t want to have it is rape, Rape is bad”. People are strange little things and you often have to explicitly specify all the little ways that women don’t want to have sex and how some behaviour will get women to say “yes” when they don’t want to.

We portray the rapist as the stranger with a knife who breaks into your house, pins you down and has his way with you.

But to see what rape is “really” like we must look at male rape victims. Most are raped and molested by someone they know (usually male) and in a position of trust.

You are more likely to be raped by a member of your own family or friends than by a random stranger. For every Delhi Rape there are probably more rapes caused by “that uncle”. And the biggest thing done would probably be just covering up his actions. In fact we routinely show young men that it’s possible to get away with rape and that it’s “harmless fun” in some cases.

We teach men not to murder and steal too! How’s that working out for us?

Murder is going down. The problem here is Thunderfoot thinks murder and theft occur in a vaccuum devoid of social reasons for them. Murder has a ginormous amount of reasons ranging from greed to anger. Theft too, some steal due to psychiatric issues, some steal due to economic pressure.

An educative approach to these crimes involves looking at the reasons why these crimes occurs and at a fundamental level working to eliminate or at least mitigate the bulk of those reasons.

And likewise doing the same to rape is sensible. We have seen massive progress with falling rates of violent crime across most of the western world and it’s not due to “guns” but due to stopping people needing to steal in the first place.

Why Teach Me to Lock My Doors, Why Not Teach Criminals Not To Steal?

Because locked doors make it harder to steal and deter the more casual thieves of opportunity. But this is a good analogy because Thunderfoot then carries on and accidentally makes an analogy that I have used before.

If you wear a Tuxedo and are mugged, the police don’t suggest that it was due to your tuxedo. They don’t say “It’s your fault for being out there”. They don’t say “maybe you are a philanthropist”. After all you are dressed like one, and philanthropists do like giving money away to poor people. Are you sure it was a mugging not a donation?

The fact of the matter is that most people who get mugged are not wearing flashy clothes. Most people these days have nice cellphones and it’s a fair bet that most people out  on the lash are packing something expensive. You aren’t being mugged for your fancy phone, you are being mugged and the fancy phone is a bonus.

You aren’t getting raped because you are dressed in a short skirt and high heels, you are getting raped irrespective of what you wear.

And we do teach kids not to mug people. Are you kidding me? Has Thunderfoot not watched television growing up? Inner City Youth Outreach is a goddamn trope. Troubled kids learning something through either a new driven and perky teacher or a jaded, washed up expert given a last chance is a bloody TV trope for a goddamn reason. Because there exist people who go into places with low socio-economic status and try and build respect and community and to uplift the youths out of the cycle of crime. Many societies try and teach criminals to change and indeed the ideal of a prison system is to not just punish but to rehabilitate prisoners into productive members of society and make them change who they are.

So if we are teaching young inner city kids respect and to try and not fall down the same pit falls as others into the life of crime ™ then why on earth are we not teaching young men to respect women and not falll down the same pit falls as others?

People have different sexual drives

I quote this point because his next point is just insultingly bad.

And to make a point here. I don’t have any opinions on 50 Shades of Grey. I really don’t. I think it’s expanded many a person’s ideas on what sex means and has made women and men a lot more experimental. That’s a good thing. I also have been told (I haven’t read the book myself) that the book doesn’t promote a safe sex environment to which I responded with the “fantasy of porn”. It’s a fantasy and in that consent is perfect in all cases. That’s fine, you shouldn’t be taking sex advice from a work of fiction. I am sure a lot of women and men went up and read about the terms of BDSM and indeed safety involved.

I am well aware of what sexual fantasies are primarily because I know one of the most common fantasies out there is the rape fantasy. Where a woman or a man wants to pretend to be raped. Not the “real rape” but the idea of a loss of control to someone else who dominates you is rather a seductive idea. I know rape victims who have this fantasy and struggle to delineate between the horror of their experience and the fantasy.

I know that Tiga has a rape fantasy and it’s something she has never really been able to find someone to act out with. I dated another girl with it and was introduced  to the framework of such a fantasy (the usage of traffic light colours to control, the usage of safe words and start words that sort of thing). But in all this we must remember that even while acting out a rape fantasy where no means yes, the woman or man in that has designated a system by which they can act out this fantasy and indeed lose control in to someone they trust who won’t exceed the hard limits and who they trust around the conditional limits a person has on their sex life.

Having a sex drive that fantasises rape in this way does not mean you want to rape a person really or to be raped.

You Cannot Teach People to Not Be Gay, why do you think you can teach people to not rape?

Did you just compare homosexuals and the “Pray the Gay Away” Industry which is based exclusively on religious fear and shame to rapists? Did you just say that a rapist is no more able to stop raping women than a gay man is capable of not being attracted to men?

As the scorpion said to the frog, “I Cannot Help It, It’s In My Nature”.

The young women in the original video are decrying a culture of hatred of women so deep that at nearly every stage of life, women are mistreated.  From female infanticide to grope and rape culture to the abandonment of the elderly women. And Thunderfoot has stated that it’s not possible to stop rape, because the rapist has a sex drive that is turned on by  rape and is no different from a gay man.

At what point did he think this argument holds any water?

Sean Hannity Show Clips! Sean thinks teaching men to not rape means educating them in the middle of a rape

I would put that piece up as Parody. Teaching men to not rape means teaching them from a young age. It’s preventing them from becoming rapists by teaching them to consider other people’s feelings and ideas and teaching them about consent. Now in this there will still be men who “rape” but there will be a lot fewer out there.

Ted Bundy!

Mate, Ted Bundy is a Serial Fucking Killer. A man who had a sociopathic thrill of rape and murder. Are you fucking comparing men to Ted Fucking Bundy?

If you are an MRA mate you are doing precious fucking little by using him as an example of “men who act on their sexuality”.

Also? Serial Killers are Rare. They are so rare that the presence of one captures the public imagination. A man with a pathological need to kill. A man who doesn’t kill for wealth or profit but for the act of killing that brings him some personal pleasure. So much so that we create entire mythos around them such as Hannibal Lecter. In fact if I recall correctly, Ted Bundy is the inspiration of Hannibal. Or indeed “Dexter” (BTW? Am  I the only one who gets the pun in the name? Dexter is the Opposite of Sinister? Sinister is Left and Dexter is very nearly always Right?)

The majority of people who are raped and murdered are not raped or/and murdered by serial killers but by bog standard blokes. To portray all rapists as Ted Bundy is to hide the fact of the truth of sexual assault. It’s the reason why Catholic Priests got away with sexual assault for so long. Because in people’s minds they didn’t look like slavering rapists but like respectable members of society.

Compares Rape To Sexual Predators in Cars

We teach children to not talk to strangers who are not in positions of trust. AKA don’t talk to the man in the car, talk to the policeman instead.

And again I repeat. Your child is more likely to be molested by someone you know or indeed a parent than some stranger in a car. The stranger danger fear is one born out of demonisation of the GLBT and the few tragic incidents where paedophiles have lured kids into vans and cars.

These cases make the news in a bigger way though and especially in British Culture due to Ian Brady and Myra Hindley who were a pair of serial killers operating in Yorkshire who kidnapped, tortured and raped kids. You can see it as the death of the innocence of childhood in British Culture. Where Enid Blytonesque adventures were replaced by a tight leash on children.

And such avoidance has not affected child molestation as much as we think it has because most child molestation occurred when people of trust in a community took advantage of that trust and utilised their power and untouchable social status to keep them safe from allegations. Person x couldn’t have molested little Timmy because Person x is an outstanding man! Timmy must be a liar with pants constantly on fire!

And considering child marriage was the norm in most cultures across the world and changes to laws has created statutory rape and paedophilia as a crime and indeed has caused normal behaviour to change one can say that “Don’t Have Sex with Minors” has been a rather effective message.

10% of Rape is Power, 90% of it is desire for sex

One would point out that the ability to take advantage of someone to immediately satiate a desire for sex is indicative of “power”.

Transition between Rape and Bad Sex

Like it or not such a transition exists.

Ah! What Mr. Foot suggests is that if a woman has bad sex she calls it rape. You know what? In all my sex life and that includes a fair few “Mini Avi is shy!” incidents (after one too many beers) have I had sex that was so atrocious that a woman thought “gee that was so bad that Avi should be in fucking prison”.

And the examples he gives? I gave consent and asked them to stop halfway through but they didn’t?

That Is Rape. Consent can be withdrawn you know. It’s not a roller coaster. Once you start you can stop having sex. And I am afraid what ensues in this portion is just apologetics. Maybe you felt like you owed him something so that’s why you didn’t say no explicitly and in triplicate. Talak Talak Talak? Rapists listen if you say no three times!

This is just sickening. Especially considering his source material is the FUCKING BACKLASH TO SOMEONE BEING SODOMISED TO DEATH. Someone effectively got impaled rectally and died from that. And Mr. Foot has utilised a painful period in Indian culture and a watershed for real change to bash those women who made the fucking video and by extension bash every single fucking woman who has such a story to tell.

Drunk or Not You Are Responsible for Your Own Actions! Accusing Random People for Rape if You Were Drunk and Wouldn’t Have Slept With Them If You Were Sober is Super Common!

The most common date rape drug is alcohol. Or what? Only roofies make you incapable of fighting off a rapist? More alcohol will have you pass out and not be able to fight off rapists. In one fucking fell swoop Mr. Foot decides that women who drink have it coming to them. Are you sure it was rape? Not Reduced Inhibitions that made you sleep with a Minger and now you want some “credit” back so you are going to bloody accuse them of rape?

Fucking hell man! Apparently in Mr. Foot’s head the real problem is women are all sadistic, shallow and vile human beings who use rape as an excuse for being sluts. AM I RITE GAIZ?

And he compares drinking and being out as a woman as equivalent to drinking and driving.

Oh and I beg to differ. It is slut shaming and victim blaming. If you were male and were mugged while drunk, no one would say that you started a fight and lost. People would sympathetically listen to you and take you to a hospital. Now compare that to being raped. And bear in mind, this is not rape in the west. We are talking about rape in India. Where there are no sympathetic policemen and hospital staff themselves may blame you for your incident. Thunderfoot picked on an Indian source.

Rape is not the victim’s fault! This statement reduces women’s agency and shows women have no control over their environment. Telling them this prevents women from minimising risk!

You shouldn’t let your child play outside! It’s your fault paedophiles got to him! You shouldn’t have left your door open when you nipped around to the neighbours!

Says no Copper Ever.

Rape is not the victim’s fault. Thunderfoot keeps showing up a list of methods that would reduce the risk of rape and frankly my question is “Do you  think it’s acceptable that women have to take these extra precautions to stop rape” and “Why are we not changing society  so that these precautions are unnecessary”.

I don’t think Mr. Foot understands what we are doing. We aren’t saying women shouldn’t pound Tequila, what we are saying is that no one should pound tequila till they pass out but if you do women should be just as safe as men and not HAVE to worry about rape. I want my kids to play outside without fear of paedophile  kidnappers and murderers. And to do that we must do both. Not one or the other.

Do you know how fucking disgusting this is? It’s your fault you got raped? You didn’t do x, y or z enough?

This was what men were saying immediately after the Delhi rape. The “Bhaiya” method in that video? If you call a man your brother he cannot rape you and is sworn to defend you! Stay at home and never be around any men or women, best way to avoid getting raped IMHO.

How To Stop Rape TFoot Style

This should be good.

Your Body Language Makes You a Victim

No it does not. You are a victim of rape because a man can rape you and thinks he can get away with it because there is a good chance they can get away with it

Your body language means precisely dick. If you look confident, it doesn’t mean you won’t get raped.

Be like a wasp

Poor analogy, wasps and bees sting painfully and are hard to hit in the air despite the size difference. One quickly learns to fear them since they sting hard. And I am rather good at women’s anatomy. I am unaware of the venomous properties of women  nor their innate armoury of weapons that make them a painful opponent. In addition the sting of a wasp has an almost mythological fear ingrained into us from a young age.

Do you think fear of wasps is universal? There are people who harvest honey from wild bees. Do you think they would fear your wasps when they WILLINGLY get stung so much their body destroys bee venom? We fear wasps because we fear the repercussions of fighting one since our flailing hands that we use to fight things are in effect massive targets.

You didn’t fight enough to stop rape. You didn’t physically inflict enough damage to your rapist so you got raped. Which is pretty logical. If you could physically harm your rapist sufficiently you wouldn’t have gotten raped in the first place. I mean if you fought off your would be murderer you wouldn’t have gotten murdered!

Either that or Mr. Foot thinks yellow and black clothes stop rape.

People fear me, I know that. I have fun with it because I know it makes people uncomfortable. Oh I am the cheeky fucker who when brought out at airport lines for “totally random searches” down my pants start flirting with the man who’s job it is to stare at my  be-boxered genitals. Because for me it’s “fun”. Because I shouldn’t have to do that. I assume it makes their life a misery and I know it’s a dick move.

Women fear me in elevators. I assume it’s a closed space and/or they have a bad experience or know of a bad experience. That’s fine by me. I don’t think an elevator is a good place to strike up conversations with random strangers and honestly it is a 30 second ride and frankly I want to be out of the elevator because my presence in an elevator means I probably have somewhere I want to go along the vertical axis and to be distracted from my goal is rather pointless.

I don’t like the fact that the women judges me for being a potential criminal/terrorist/rapist. But there is absolutely nothing I can do to change her opinion of me apart from being friendly and if eye contact is made being as non-threatening as possible. Maybe in time she will treat some other man not as a potential rapist but as a human being but for that she has to have an experience.

Also? It’s like a minute or so of being regarded as a potential rapist, for fuck’s sake I have to go through life as a potential terrorist! A minute of being Schrodinger’s Rapist is hardly putting a crimp in your style to be fair.

I totally know what it’s like to fight a rapist off! I stumbled across a mountain lion!

Don’t Run From Big Predators. Look Big and Scary! This is a well known plan and is used to fight off everything but frankly self defence versus a human aggressor involves running. No martial art of self defence involves standing and fighting.

Sexual predators look for women who are weak and alone. By weak I mean physically less likely to fight back.

Sexual Abuse of the elderly is a “thing”. Sexual abuse of children is common too. Women in cultures with less freedom and less ability to get help and be taken seriously are more prone to rape.

You got raped because you trusted a man too much!

Dating Advice from Thunderfoot!

Don’t be too invested in a date, you can be raped by a man who takes advantage of you and lies!

I know of a person who’s love of a man turned abusive. It wasn’t a sudden change, it was slow and gradual. Slowly she was cut off from her friends and this man used her so badly until she finally left. She made amends with those she left and honestly I think it was an incredibly brave thing to face up to people who you think you harmed.

Women and men who are abused are loyal to their abusers often due to the systematic breakdown of self esteem that leaves them without any of the normal support mechanisms that allows us options.

Thunderfoot thinks date rape is common? It is but not as common as being raped by your boyfriend or husband.

Your Clothes Attract Rapists

Well not just clothes but apparently if you lick your lips you cause mad hormonal changes that turn men from docile upstanding citizens to the second coming of Ghenghis Khan.

Thunderfoot does men a great disservice here. Here we see his argument reduce the agency of men. That if a woman simply waggles her knickers in your direction, you will do anything she says or indeed lose control of your civility. Cockteasing Increases Rape, Flirting Increases Rape.

That is his message. Your eyes say yes but you say no, so I raped you because I only speak fluent eyes!

I think Thunderfoot has confused humans with Birds of Paradise. We do not get consent by interpretive gesture and display. I do not ask for consent for a procedure by interpretive dance but by a variety of levels of consent.

Let us take flirting for example. Let’s take a bar. A bar is a social setting where flirting can occur. That isn’t to say flirting cannot occur at other places. I have said to women who smiled at me “look I find you attractive and would like to ask you out, here is my number, call me if you like”. You are making a date to flirt. See? The bar is implied consent to flirt and the invitation on a date is an offer to flirt with this historical slice of dating history if she wants to at a time and location most appropriate to the situation.

Now a bar or a date you have implied consent to flirt. You have decided that the person you are talking to is a potential person for a relationship and so demonstrate your interest by flirting. This is non-verbal consent akin to walking into a doctor’s office and asking him for help with an issue. It is implied that you wish for his help and agree to a basic general history taking, your doctor may do an examination to which you provide verbal consent to. Surgical procedures require written consent and in some BDSM relationships the couple may stipulate an explicit contract with terms of agreement in such a form of consent.

Relationships can have all three forms of consent. And if I as a mere beta male of inferior proportions to the mighty Thunderfoot can understand this than so can most men.

Mixed Messages Are Bad

Yes, I agree. I think men  should learn this important dictim. No means No, Maybe means No, Yes can mean No if you are coercive or threatening.

Don’t bank on mixed messages, be clear and be explicit. No woman I know has ever balked at an explicit stance but also be reasonable. You can be cheeky. Do you know how many women on the first date have said no to “So do I get a kiss goodnight and would you like to do this again?” with “No”. The worst I got was “Maybe next time and she said it was not a good fit”. No loss there, it’s sad to not gel on a date but frankly c’est la vie.

Why? Because my question had a way out. I have had women respond to that with “I don’t kiss on  the first date” and gone “What about the second?” and just got a “Why don’t you wait and see?”. You can even flirt USING consent and come off as an astounding gentleman. We are not suggesting you draw up cYeontracts using a lawyer, we are suggesting being sensible and making sure you aren’t threatening or scaring people into doing things they are not comfortable with.

You can be explicit about your intentions. And if in doubt? Keep It Simple and Clear. That’s the best you can do as a man. If in doubt? Clarify.

Women would be more beautiful if they were not damaged by sexual assault

I am a cynic, I may be wrong but I read that as “Women with bad sexual histories are immediately wary of me because something makes them worry and I don’t like it”.

Victims of Sexual Assault and Rape are Not Good Sources of Advice

Instead we should listen to Thunderfoot’s theories based on mountain lion safety? Ladies? If you wear a mask on the back of your head the rapists will not know which direction you are facing and cannot ambush you.

Yes! Ignore what the victims of rape have to say! It’s not like ignoring what they say has harmed them in any way at all.

Pay no attention to the Man Behind The Curtain!

Because you know it’s on his video and mentioned repeatedly.

90% of women are raped by a known attacker. So more often than not the woman was raped by her “prince charming”. The man she trusted implicitly.

After all? Didn’t he pay attention to the Video He Was Bashing? It’s not rape if it’s your husband.

I seen things, I seen them with my eyes, I seen things, the are often in disguise

Dear Mr. Thunderfoot.

Even in India where we have goddamn tigers that are around 150 Kgs and move as fast as a race horse and are so stealthy all you can say is “OH SHIIII….”  before they have leapt on you…. in this environment filled with deadly snakes and creatures that kill only a handful of people a year die. It is tragic but it is still a rarity.

In India sexual harassment is nearly universal and I have not met a single woman who was not harassed. And rape is common enough to be considered so normal. In fact women in India are torn between whether rape in marriage is rape or not because it’s so “normal”.

And yes, we do want women to experience the wonders of the world. I too have seen wonderful and indeed terrible things. And I too wish for women to experience the wonderful and be allowed to fight against the terrible. I LIKE a lot of India and I like some of the things here. And I want people to experience those things. I also wish Indians would stop trying to rape women. These are two things that overlap with what I want and I know that the rapes prevents women from enjoying the India that I love as much as I hate.

I too can write doggerel verse and soaring script to pluck at your heart strings and evoke feelings of manly acquaintance with the natural world and the risks I take. But I know for a fact that I cannot expect my  risk taking behaviour to allow me to tell you to take more. I can wish you to experience what I experience but I cannot force you or belittle the lack of adventure in your heart.

Or indeed the fear of sexual assault and rape. Maybe one day we will live in a society where such fear is unfounded but frankly 1 in 5 women are raped in this day and age and 20% is a AWFULLY big number.

20% of Macho Macho Men do not get eaten by mountain lions. Or Tigers.

No what Mr. Foot does not get is this simple point. In order for a man to be safe we don’t have to do anything. We are safe. Automatically and Instantly and this is harmful too because we don’t listen to men who need help because “why would you need help”? What sort of a pussy man needs help?

What Mr. Foot is doing is taking the minority of rape victims and making it seem like they are the majority and implying that if women did things differently they could have avoided that rape. Yes. Hindsight is 20/20. If they didn’t make a left turn that day they may have not gotten raped. One of dozens of things may have stopped that rape.

The things that get women raped are things that are normal. Alcohol? You mean the stuff we blokes drink on the weekend down our pubs? Women shouldn’t drink that! And I noticed Sororities in his video being mentioned. While I do not understand them nor see the value in belonging to a fraternity/sorority I am sure men and women find some pleasure in being part of those things. Rather than say “being a sister in a sorority gets you raped” let’s say “how can we make things safer for such women” and “why are they in particular getting more raped”. Who is doing all this raping and why is no one stepping in to sort shit out?

That’s the thing. A woman cannot behave like a man in public because behaving like a man gets women raped. And that’s the bitter truth of all this. Women have to take extra precautions to be safe. We have to invent apps for our phones to make women feel safer. We have had to build extra infrastructure JUST to keep women from being groped in public. Do you know why women get their own seats? Because men used to grope women on buses. Oh you can make a fuss, but the groper just slinks away to grope another day. You still got groped and you still had to yell at some arsehole. Why can’t we just stop the groping? Nope! Got To Dress Like A Wasp And Sting Him! That’s the TFoot Way! I don’t think women should have special buses and train compartments. I think they should tough it out with us! But I also think women should not be groped and that the little evil of segregation at the moment to keep women safe from the “men” is a small price to pay. Maybe one day India will not need this. But for now? These are necessary to keep women safe. You may think these women need to look spikey and wasp like to scare men off but frankly they shouldn’t have to do this.

And I repeat this is India we are discussing. Because Thunderfoot responded to India I shall respond FROM India.

This doesn’t help anyone. It portrays women as bringing rape on themselves by acting like victims. It portrays rape victims as women with no sense of perspective and it portrays men as unthinking beasts.

In short it’s just bad for everyone. And the thing what makes it worse is that in context it is ESPECIALLY bad for Indian Women since this was a video in response to Indians.

And of all the women of the world, to hammer the women of India is just despicable. Or even to use the women of India to smack down women of other countries?

It’s just not helpful to anyone.

And to the men and women of All India Backchod? Well done guys, the fact we are having this discussion is thanks to you. We shouldn’t have needed it to have this discussion but your video made us discuss the issue and that can only mean progress.

Comments

  1. thascius says

    Avi wrote “In order for a man to be safe we don’t have to do anything. We are safe.” Actually not true. I can’t speak for India, but in the US a man is actually a lot more likely than a woman to be a victim of violence at the hands of a stranger. Men have a false sense of security, that because we’re male we can’t be victims, which means any man who becomes a victim is not a REAL MAN.
    On the main issue Avi’s right, we can teach men not to rape, we can make sexual assault less acceptable, and while that may not prevent 100% of all rapes that is something.

  2. maudell says

    So, if I follow TF’s expert advice: Saudi Arabia is a wonderful place where women don’t get raped. After all, the vast majority of Saudi women don’t go out unaccompanied, never talk to men outside her family, certainly never drink and dress ‘modestly’. They also don’t look at men, so no mixed signals. Sounds like the good life for both genders. They should just keep that great social system but get rid of the god part.

    On the point about teaching men not to rape, I agree with Avi that consent should be taught to everyone. In my experience, when I became sexually active in my late teens, I thought if I had been friendly with a man (no flirting) but he read my friendliness as a come on, I ‘owed’ him sex because of this misunderstanding. Older men are particularly good at taking advantage of this. I should have known that I was allowed to say ‘no’. I don’t qualify this sex as rape, but our assumptions of ‘owing sex’ are still pretty messed up.

  3. says

    We teach men not to murder and steal too! How’s that working out for us?

    For murder? Splendidly! Look at how very un-murdered I am.
    There are around 800 murders here a year compared to 3.600 traffic deaths a year. That’s 1 in 100.000. Feels safe to me.

    And we do teach kids not to mug people. Are you kidding me?

    Actually, even middle-class people aren’t teaching their kids not to steal. When their kids “take something home” they don’t make them give it back but hide the “shame”.

    People have different sexual drives

    Yes, and? There are hands, there is a whole industry at your service that produces pretty devices for just that case. Rape is not a natural disaster like “Different tectonic plates have different drifts therefore earthquakes.”

    You Cannot Teach People to Not Be Gay, why do you think you can teach people to not rape?

    Apparently, rape is a natural disaster. Got it. People are born rapists. If we could just know which people or what triggers rape-genes in war or such. Really, science, do something!!!

    10% of Rape is Power, 90% of it is desire for sex

    I’d like to see the research on that, Dr. Mason.
    Must be the best sex ever with a victim who is forced. I mean, think about all the enthusiastic blowjobs you’re not getting.

    Drunk or Not You Are Responsible for Your Own Actions!

    Another person who is unable to differenciate between ” I did something while drunk” and “soebody did something to me while drunk”.
    I’m always wondering if these dudes would react the same if they woke up in the morning and foud out that
    A) they have a royal hangover
    B) they sold their care for shares of a Peruvian goldmine

    Accusing Random People for Rape if You Were Drunk and Wouldn’t Have Slept With Them If You Were Sober is Super Common!

    That’s because it is rape to have sex with somebody who cannot consent. Unless you think it’s OK to cheat somebody out of their car because they were drunk that should be easy as pie.

    Rape is not the victim’s fault! This statement reduces women’s agency and shows women have no control over their environment.

    Yes, how am I actively not being raped. Tell me, Dr. Mason. My fluffy pink ladybrainz need your science!

    Telling them this prevents women from minimising risk!

    Tell me, Dr. Mason, how do I minimise my risks? Let me guess by abstaining from all the necessary and innecessary activities men can freely enjoy like having a drink. I remember that after a woman was attack on the campus my college told the female students not to walk alone after dark, which means the same as “drop out of college or bring yourself a nice white knight”.

    Your Body Language Makes You a Victim

    We should just lock up all men. Seriously, if they are so impulse controlled and cannot abstain from raping when they see X, Y and Z we should follow the old Golda Meir advice. Nobody thinks as bad about men as MRAs do.

    Oh shit, I was wrong. Rape is not like an earthquake, it’s an attack by a big predator. And men don’t have any more self-control than a hungry mountain lion.

    Your Clothes Attract Rapists

    Is there any bad trope he doesn’t play?
    But please, Dr. Mason, can you tell me the exact length and width my skirt should have to protect myself? And the neckline, how about that? Do you think I’ll be safe in a burqa?

    Mixed Messages Are Bad

    Yes, because women are geniuses. From the first nano-second of interaction we know exactly what we want. It’s not like we could start flirting with a guy and be interested and then get turned off because he mentions the suffering of white people in the USA a bit too often and then try to get out of the situation without anybody looking bad. Totally not happening…

    Women would be more beautiful if they were not damaged by sexual assault

    Yep, because the worst thing about sexual assault is that it spoils our looks. You can’t get much more egoistic than that, Dr. Mason. But, wait, didn’t you mention that our looks get us raped? Or is it that only sluts get raped, ladies are the one who are beautiful.

    Victims of Sexual Assault and Rape are Not Good Sources of Advice

    But, but, but I thought I could learn from their mistakes! TF himself has said that I should take action and prevent my own rape!
    Also, people of colour are not good sources about racism.
    Don’t listen to gays about the suffering of the LGB community.
    We need a panel of experts that excludes trans* people to talk about what’s good for them.

    +++

    We teach children to not talk to strangers who are not in positions of trust. AKA don’t talk to the man in the car, talk to the policeman instead.

    PSA: Don’t teach kids stranger danger. It doesn’t work. Children’s idea of “stranger” is not the sae as the adults’ idea. If somebody tells them “hi, I’m Paul, I live down the street and I have a puppy named Spots, would you like to visit Spots?” he’s no longer filed under “stranger”. Teach them “positive lists” if you teach them at all.
    Actually, it’s rape-culture kiddies edition, because the stranger with sweets and the imaginary puppy is as common in the sexual abuse of children as the stranger with the knife in the rape of adults.

    “Do you think it’s acceptable that women have to take these extra precautions to stop rape”

    The actual question is “does it even work?” Because unless I take the “A room of their own” advice and try to avoid any contact with men whatsoever all the advice only “protects” me from the pretty rare stranger type of rape. Statistically speaking I’m much safer walking the streets in a miniskirt at 3am while being drunk than sharing a flat with my husband.

    You didn’t fight enough to stop rape. You didn’t physically inflict enough damage to your rapist so you got raped. Which is pretty logical.

    Don’t forget that one of the many rape-prevention tips we get (you know, that TFoot agency thingy) is never to fight back or they’ll hurt us badly when actual research suggests the opposite.

    The bar is implied consent to flirt

    Ehm, no. The bar is implied consent to being in a bar. I’ve been in lots of bars. Most of the time I’ve been in a serious relationship with zilch interest in fliriting but a heavy interest in strawberry margaritas and a night out.

  4. leni says

    It is simply easier to shut up about rape than to fight the crime.

    I think you could have summed up TF’s entire spiel with this one sentence. Not that the rest of it wasn’t worth reading, but maybe you should bold that or something.

    His whole point is clearly “Shut up.”

    You know where we can start teaching people not to rape? By teaching people to not make excuses for rapists. It would be funny that someone so resistant to figuring about the basics would be mocking any attempt at public education if it weren’t so predictable. This is not so different than what creationists make of attempts to teach people about evolution.

    He’s simply regurgitated every argument used to bludgeon rape victims as if it were something new, in the process of doing so demonstrated the very desperate need for such an education without even realizing it. And then acted as if any attempt to change those widespread attitudes were laughable and an outrage. Where have we heard this before?

    Not only that, but it really is like a god in the gaps argument. Everywhere he can point to in order to foster doubt and uncertainty, that’s where he points. In TF’s mind, somewhere on the spectrum of potential victims lies an identifiable point between 1) a perfectly sober infant and 2) a drunk adult prostitute with questionable posture. At precisely this point, real victims end and “people responsible for crimes committed against them who should really just shut up” begins.

    Since he knows that this point is not always readily identifiable, he has an easy out. He can simply wave his hands and declare that his ignorance is proof of not-rape.

    We don’t know where life began, therefore god. We don’t know that a drunk adult didn’t consent, therefore not rape. Ever. If the victim has something else to say about that, tough shit. TF didn’t see it happen and can’t explain it and it goes against everything he knows about the human race and his own delightfully egalitarian culture, so it must never have happened. The world can again be tidy and explicable and populated by millions of fake victims who know less about their own experiences, and indeed posture, than TF does.

    Just like god, this is an explanation without even the tiniest grain of substance. “People always have control and when they don’t, it’s their fault for some bullshit reasons I just made up the same reasons I have heard all my life and am repeating now as if they were my own ideas, therefore they can’t possibly be crime victims” is not a meaningful explanation, it’s a god damned fantasy. It’s as empty and meaningless an explanation as “god did it” for determining what is and what is not rape.

  5. says

    Holy shit. I knew ThunderPhil was a raging narcissist, a bellowing sexist douchebag, a selective reporter of his opponents’ statements, someone with a poor grasp of how to do words and in posession of the emotional depth of a pre-adolescent, but is he really this flat-out fucking cluelessly stupid? He has, without apology, trotted out every single rape-apologist trope known to MRA-kind: don’t dress like a slut, don’t enjoy a man’s company, don’t go to a bar (“implied consent to flirt”? what the actual fuck?) because all these things = vagina access and if someone’s trying to rape you make sure you fight really hard like that time I beat up a no-foolin’ LION, bitches and if you don’t follow Dr Phil Mason’s advice correctly your rape is your fault because rapists are like the gays and can’t actually help themselves; it’s just another form of sex drive, y’know … ? He sounds like all those Vatican spokesmen blaming priestly paedophilia on everything from secularism to the Age of Aquarius to “precocious” children themselves. He sounds like those hateful fucking theocrats that run Saudi Arabia. He sounds like a rapologist piece of shit.

    And an idiot. He’s not just stupid but offensively, dangerously so – there are, quite likely, young men who take this fucking chump seriously. I shudder to think of anyone doing so.

  6. says

    “Thunderfoot” is at once painfully stupid and completely full of himself.

    Epic takedown. Thank you.

    My only complaint is I generally have a Thunderfoot free life and now you have reminded me of him and his scummy little world.

  7. says

    There’s also the part where he asks if a woman consents to sex, then says to stop, how long does the man have? 4 seconds? 30 seconds? It’s a blatant continuum fallacy. He seems to think that if he can imagine an unlikely scenario where someone doesn’t consent to sex, but their partner has no way of knowing, that means the onus is entirely on the non-consenting party. I don’t see how this follows.

  8. smrnda says

    First, men shouldn’t be giving women ‘how not to get raped advice’ as they sure have nothing new to say, just the same old recycled bullshit.

    All said
    “you didn’t fight enough to stop rape. You didn’t physically inflict enough damage to your rapist so you got raped. Which is pretty logical.”

    mr Foot is being kind of ablelist there, as not everybody is really in a position to put up much of an offense. Do all women have a responsibility to become martial arts masters now?

    And this one :
    “Rape is not the victim’s fault! This statement reduces women’s agency and shows women have no control over their environment. ”

    Shut up T-foot. I *have no control over my environment* is right, as my agency stops pretty much with me, so quit faulting me that I don’t take up the *empowering belief* that I can bend reality with my mind. I can’t magically stop cars full of men from screaming sexual remarks at me since I can’t will them out of existence.

  9. Al Dente says

    Thank you, Thunderthud, for vomiting out every rape apologist argument in existence. The dudebros will appreciate your support of the rape culture. We appreciate you showing yet again that you’re a clueless, sexist asshole. Not that there was much doubt of that.

  10. says

    Ace of Seven

    There’s also the part where he asks if a woman consents to sex, then says to stop, how long does the man have?

    How about right now and immediately?
    Funny enough, my partner never had any problems doing so. I don’t even have to say “stop”. “Ouch” means he’ll stop and make sure I’m OK. And so do I.
    Such bullshit makes you really hope that Dr. Mason had, has and will have pretty little sex.

  11. Ysanne says

    Thanks Avi, good takedown.

    Why Teach Me to Lock My Doors, Why Not Teach Criminals Not To Steal?

    What an idiot comparison from someone living in a privileged low-crime country.
    Where my grandma lives, normal apartment doors look like a paranoid’s dream: The minimum in a reasonably good part of the city are 3 or more locks and bolts in various places, reinforced hinges and frame, a lockable bar across the door holding it against the wall, optionally bolts into floor/ceiling, plus a steel grille in front of the whole thing. And an alarm system with backup power & line to the police.
    And there are still burglaries.
    Locking the door doesn’t help.
    And if something ever gets stolen from TFoot, it’s obvious he did not take enough care, after all he practically invited thieves in by just locking the door instead of actually securing it.

  12. says

    Ysanne

    What an idiot comparison from someone living in a privileged low-crime country.
    Where my grandma lives, normal apartment doors look like a paranoid’s dream:

    and in many parts of Switzerland doors have a handle on the outside and people just open it when they want to visit you. I have a normal lock and it’s way enough…
    That’s the thing, TF actually denies the existence of something we call “culture”.
    Why do people in the western world refrain from eating dogs? Must be because they’re not hungry!* Why are they abhorred by the thought of eating guinea pigs but not rabbit? What makes shrimp delicious and grashoppers disgusting? Must be genetic, I guess…

    *which is kind of true

  13. thetalkingstove says

    The Foot is spectacularly dense. On Twitter he actually went to “but in BDSM circles saying ‘no’ can actually mean ‘yes!'”

    I mean, yes, in pre-arranged circumstances, in a safe environment, with a safe word that *means* ‘no’ in place. If someone says ‘no’ during BDSM sex without a safe word having been established, then you fucking well stop what you’re doing.

    He argues like a child.
    “Elephants are grey”
    “Aha! But what if you paint an elephant red, then it’s not grey!”

  14. Splicer says

    If you wear a Tuxedo and are mugged, the police don’t suggest that it was due to your tuxedo. They don’t say “It’s your fault for being out there”.

    Then you must not live in NYC. If I get mugged or attacked in a poorer area of the city, the police are likely to tell me, albeit not publicly, that it’s probably not a good idea for white people to go there.

  15. angharad says

    That was splendid Avicenna.

    @Giliell – I had a large ovarian cyst a few years ago. Until it went away sex could go from ‘Yay! This is awesome’ to ‘Argh! I think I’m going to die’ with one misplaced poke. I always think of that when I see those complaints about being expected to stop at short notice. Damn straight I would expect you to stop in that situation.

  16. says

    @The Talkingstove (14)

    I wrote specifically about the rape fantasy because I am aware about it. It’s actually one of complete trust where no means “yes” because the word associated with “Stop” is something different.

    So the one system I am aware of is the Sign/Countersign system. So if one partner uses a specific word and the other gives the appropriate one then the fantasy is on. Then people use the Red/Yellow/Green system (Green means, keep going don’t hesitate! Yellow = Don’t progress! and Red = Stop!).

    So in that situation NO means YES but only because NO has been designated to a different set of words.

  17. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    Well written Avicenna – great piece and seconded by me.

    BTW. I dd find the references to “Mr Foot” a bit strange. Thunderfoot’s real name is well known and you coud’ve used that instead, may have worked better.

    I gather that Thunderfoot was a major atheist community figure once, well kinda, on youtube anyhow. Sad to see how he’s rapidly dug himself a massive hole and turned himself into a rather sad joke though.

    Off topic but since you included it :

    BTW? Am I the only one who gets the pun in the name? Dexter is the Opposite of Sinister? Sinister is Left and Dexter is very nearly always Right?)

    Hmm.. neat observation, make sense when you put it like that.

    Minor Typo to fix if it helps under the “mIxed messages are bad section” :

    We are not suggesting you draw up cYeontracts using a lawyer, we are suggesting being sensible and making sure you aren’t threatening or scaring people into doing things they are not comfortable with.

    Emphasis added.

  18. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    PS. Thunderfoot is also, obviously more than just a sad joke but somebody these days making disgustingly offensive rape apologist clips and misognitsy anti-feminist ones.

  19. besomyka says

    I use to watch his youtube videos, but he went under my radar when he started getting off topic. He wasn’t that interesting.

    When it was announced he was joining FTB I was pretty enthused. I hadn’t seen him in a while, but my last impression was fairly positive. Then I read him. I gave him a chance to come around. My positive impression let me give him the benefit of the doubt at first.

    But he doubled and then tripled-down. I’ve written him off as a lost cause. He’s a rape culture enthusiast and apologist, and I want nothing to do with him. At this point, I’d avoid any social event that I knew he was attending. If I saw him, he and his group would be a HUGE danger sign to stay away from.

    Honestly, I would not even attend an event he was invited to. I wouldn’t be able to feel like the organizers had my back, and that his inclusion would influence the attendees make up.

    Ugh.

  20. bryanfeir says

    I seen things, I seen them with my eyes, I seen things, the are often in disguise

    I too can write doggerel verse […]

    Thunderf00t didn’t write that anyway. That’s almost certainly a reference to ‘Scampi’, one of the earlier Weebl’s Stuff flash cartoons.

  21. says

    Well, over on Twitter he argued that “Sometimes a woman says “no” but her body says yes* and in BDSM no means yes therefore…”
    Therefore apparently it’s the man’s right to decide when it’s rape.
    I’m wondering wheter he’d be OK with “his erection said yes so I disregarded whatever his mouth said and just had my way” when talking about men and sexual assault…
    Which is one fucked up way to blame and gaslight victims.

    *Uhm, my mouth is my body. It’s the only part of my body that can reliably communicate with other people without the help of computers and such. Really, stop talking with my index finger that twirls strands of hair. It’s a habbit I picked up from my grandpa when we played chess.

  22. sc_13130ced6394732ac8bdb91abb5485e0 says

    Analysis of writing
    Author: “Avicenna”
    Title: Age of Kali – Thunderfoot – All India Backchod, Rape and Asking For It.
    (either “for it” did not need capitalization or “and” did.)

    Intro Section.
    — Writer indicates uncertainty of reasoning behind Thunderfoot’s rejection of feminism.

    Answer:
    1. Thunderfoot started anti-feminism when the logical scientific criteria for proof was not met.
    2. Social executions were being carried out by the relevant bodies (Atheism +, FTB and “Skepchick”)

    Totals resulting in [Thunderfoot] drawing attention to and questioning and his proceeding banishment.
    Which indicated an unwillingness to analyze, study, question, or otherwise necessary processes intrinsic to [The Scientific Method] and [Skepticism]
    — Of which, said group claims support in but demonstrates counter-wise.

    Intro quote relevance: “We do not explain consent to our young men and women. “

    — Response: Define consent. Define proof of consent or non-consent in situations without outside observation. AKA: Where the two people in question are the only two witnesses. [Rapist] and [Raped]

    End Section.

  23. sc_13130ced6394732ac8bdb91abb5485e0 says

    Begin Section
    Quote Heading
    We don’t Teach Our Children not to Rape. BOLLOCKS!
    Analysis
    Writer indicates ignorance in [Rapist Methodology] and [Rapist Psychology]
    Writer appears unaware of widely available chemical methods to induce involuntary erections.
    It is likely the writer is not a medical student for the former reasoning.
    Writer overall appears to have a dynamic and subjective definition of rape.

    Quote heading
    “We teach men not to murder and steal too! How’s that working out for us? “
    Analysis
    Writer uses ambiguous terminology for counting “Ginormous” instead of “wide range”
    Writer does mention reasons for theft in spite of legality may be caused by a range of conditions. [Important Reference Point 1]
    Writer properly suggests understanding [why crimes occur] is necessary to prevention.
    #Very good.
    Properly suggests the same can be done to rape.
    (Warning: Suggestion indicates there may be reasons for why rape occurs.)
    #Still Very good

    Quote Heading:
    Why Teach Me to Lock My Doors, Why Not Teach Criminals Not To Steal?
    Analysis
    Properly suggests locked doors make it harder to steal… (Direct Protective Initiative)
    Improperly suggests “tuxedo analogy”
    → Third party observer (hypothetical) makes excuse for theft, because tuxedo suggests “Charitable person”
    Analogy irrelevant – Extended: Tuxedo = Unlocked door.
    Thus: Lock your door [VS] Expect others not to rob you.
    End Section

  24. says

    Answer:
    1. Thunderfoot started anti-feminism when the logical scientific criteria for proof was not met.
    2. Social executions were being carried out by the relevant bodies (Atheism +, FTB and “Skepchick”)

    1) Nonsense. Thunderf00t didn’t even -look- for proof of such; if you’ll recall, his entire original argument was to completely strawman the notion of a “harassment policy”, and then, once confronted with evidence to the contrary (including a link to an actual harassment policy; American Atheists’, if I recall), his response was to restate his original objection (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion).
    2) “Social executions”. Right…. So now, evidently pointing out poor behavior by others is a “social execution”? That was once called “social accountability”. Also, you’re aware that the first of those “relevant bodies” didn’t even exist at the time Thunderf00t started his anti-feminism nonsense (late June 2012), right?

    Response: Define consent. Define proof of consent or non-consent in situations without outside observation. AKA: Where the two people in question are the only two witnesses. [Rapist] and [Raped]

    Consent (w.r.t. sex): The state of being enthusiastically willing, under no coercion or similar threatening forces.

    Non-consent: The lack of the above.

    “proof of consent/non-consent”: Incoherent in most cases (e.g. BDSM dom-sub relationships with written contracts, anything where both strangers and alcohol are involved simultaneously). Consent/non-consent is defined as above, by the person giving/withholding it, or in the case of non-consent, inability to give it (if alcohol or other chemical substances are involved that compromise judgment).

    Improperly suggests “tuxedo analogy”

    Incorrect. Given police and societal tendency to blame rape victims for their rape (i.e. improper interrogations and extreme, unwarranted suspicion where a victim of theft or assault would never be treated similarly), the analogy is apt. Extension of analogy renders it invalid; no evidence exists to suggest that !Tuxedo = Locked door. This is true, irrespective that such analogies (i.e. locking doors) completely miss the point.

    Conclusion: Analysis extremely flawed. Algorithm needs to be seriously re-worked, if not rebuilt from the ground up.

    Recommendation: Designer/engineer responsible should be reprimanded, if anything above a student intern.

  25. says

    Looks like sc_13130ced6394732ac8bdb91abb5485e0 is still unable to find the Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right A B buttons on their date.

  26. smrnda says

    Just a small note, I don’t think the ‘lock your door’ analogy really works for rape. If a guy was seen walking up to each and every house on a block, and trying to open the door, and then, finding it locked, would move on to the next house, I think the guy would have the cops called on him. We tell people to lock doors to avoid being robbed or having your house broken into, but trying to see who left their door open is definitely seen as criminal behavior in and of itself. Predatory sexual behavior should be seen the same way.

  27. theoreticalgrrrl says

    The ‘lock your door’ analogy, how exactly does that work with regard to a woman’s private parts? How does one ‘lock’ their vagina?

    I’m in my body 24-7, it’s not something I leave on a park bench while a go about doing other things. I’ve never been able to induce an out-of-body experience. My body and all its parts don’t just belong to me, they are ME. It’s very telling that people keep comparing women to objects or possessions that you forgot to lock or didn’t keep an eye on.
    Rape is NOT like theft, it’s a violent, very personal assault on an actual human being.

    “Thunderfoot started anti-feminism when the logical scientific criteria for proof was not met.” – some idiot.

    Definition of ‘feminism’ [-i-niz-uhm]
    (noun)
    1. support of social, political, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.

    What scientific criteria do I need to meet in order to prove that I am as human as a man and deserve the same basic rights men take for granted?

    Here is a video response to Tfoot’s video by the1janitor:

  28. trina says

    I hate these people who act like consent is just the most difficult thing in the world.
    They can read body language fine until it comes to the bedroom, at which point the only ‘no’ that is clear enough has to be signed in triplicate and witnessed by 7 people.

    And yet my girlfriend knew I was uncomfortable one day during sex and stopped before I said anything or did anything other than tense slightly. Must be our magic lady brains that give us the power to care about whether what we’re doing is making our partner happy.

  29. says

    I followed TFoot for years, enjoying his WDPLAC video series. But I started paying less attention to him when it became clear that he was anti-feminist. But now… for him to go right ahead and be an staunch defender of rape culture…

    I’m disgusted in him, and I’m disgusted in myself for ever having looked up to him.

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