This one’s from Dan who posted a comment in support of Pat Condell’s stance on Syria.
Pat Condell’s stance on Muslims has gone “fights Islam” to “bandies bullshit”. There is no other words for that and the problem is we as atheists lose our humanity when we agree with such a notion.
We don’t have to help our fellow man.
But if you don’t then no one else will. Jesus and his league of super best friends don’t help humans no matter how much we claim they do. It’s bog standard, mundane humans. And for the most part our lives are short, brutish and ugly. But we have created a heaven of sorts at our feet. We find things that make us happy whether it be a nice meal or love or the smell of fresh cut pine. Or cat pictures.
Whatever it is we try and make heaven at our feet. But for many that is impossible. They live in hell. And for them we need compassion. Of all the virtues we associate with “being human” compassion is the one we link most to humanity.
Pat unfortunately seems to let Atheism take a front seat to that. And I am afraid Dan hasn’t noticed his prior videos including one on the So Called 9/11 Mosque which was no where near the site of 9/11 and wasn’t a Mosque but a community centre. But no, Pat was brave and fought against the non-existent plan to build a Mosque at “Ground Zero” as it were. Never mind the facts.
And it is in fact that we must defend my stance.
“Would you like to know what WHOPPING amount of people have been given Asylum?
Not 2,000,000. A number 0.4% of what Pat Condell flogged.”
You’re arguing with a position Pat Condell doesn’t hold.
It’s pretty clear he means that, in theory, 2 million Syrian refugees could be allowed into Sweden.
In theory? Still No.
Sweden’s position is EXPLICITLY clear and has been explicitly clear. Sweden has accepted 15,000 refugees from Syria to date. Roughly 7000 had already received unlimited leave to remain in Sweden as they possessed skills and job qualifications that benefitted the Swedish Economy.
The remainder were in limbo. After the deployment of Chemical Weaponry, Sweden altered the status of refugees to high risk and so gave the remaining 8000 complete asylum. Sweden has a habit of such causes including giving asylum to Taslima. In fact she holds Swedish Citizenship should India decide to “send her home”.
Good on Sweden.
However this information that Sweden has given asylum to existing Asylum Seekers and Refugees in Sweden is from Reuters. In fact the official Swedish stance seems to be “All Refugees Officially Taken By Sweden Are Given Leave To Remain and Asylum”.
Not 2 million. Want to know something? Roughly 2 million of those refugees are taken in by neighbouring nations. The Inhuman Muslims we so decry have shown a greater moral stance and indeed greater humanity than Pat.
And remember more people read and support Pat than do me. If we were to try and get people to read this they would simply ignore it.
So let’s get this absolutely straight. Nowhere has Sweden Said “TAKING ALL SYRIANS! LOL K THANX BAI”, it’s said that 15,000 Syrians who it has taken as refugees will be given asylum as they cannot see a possible return for them. Should these Syrians wish to go back they can do so or if they chose to become Swedes they can do so too. The world is their Oyster unlike the Syrians who were back in Syria.
Oh these 2 million refugees COULD be allowed into Sweden. Or they COULD be sent to India or to Spain or to the USA or to Canada or made into a giant human pyramid and then set on fire because if we are living in fear of improbable things then we may as well not draw any lines. This entire rumour is based on hearsay and gossip and people fearmongering and preying on for want of a better word… Islamophobia.
Just so we understand the foundation is non-existent for this argument. No Reputable News Source seems to think 2 million refugees have been accepted by Sweden which means that Pat and indeed Dan both subscribe to the alarmist group of news sources that seem to think that a day without a scare about something actually harmless is a day wasted. Think of this news source as the sort that goes “TV’s for Convicts? What next binoculars and free candy for paedophiles?”.
Not going to happen, but it does show how utterly reckless the Swedish government is that they would open the door to this. Just to put things into perspective, Sweden has a population of 9.5 million people. A theoretical introduction of 2 million more people (raised in a radically different culture no less) would be a disaster for the country. Swedish culture as you know it would be in danger. If you think this would be a non-issue, you’re naive. Borders were made for a reason.
No it would not.
Swedish youths aren’t suddenly going to wear disdashas and keffiyah and go “Where my arabs at?”. Sweden’s taste of metal won’t suddenly be replaced by a taste for cheesy arab pop music and souped up Toyotas. Even if you bring in 2 million Syrians which incidentally is nearly a fifth of Syria.
It’s Sweden, not the Sioux Nation. It’s not black african americans or australian aborigines or south american natives. These are groups who’s culture was specifically hunted down and destroyed to make them stop identifying with those groups. We are talking about giving aid and succour to people who need it.
I mean this is arguing stupidly. Sweden’s taken in 15,000 refugees. Not 2.5 million. That’s like someone responding to “I bought a £15,000 car with fears about how you are going to be £2.5 million in debt”. It’s utterly bonkers.
And a nation’s borders are just territory. The same as dogs marking territories except we use fences, mine fields, GPS and the threat of blowing shit up. It’s an extension of urinating on trees. You may think Swedes are some magical fairy people but honestly they are pretty much the same as Syrians. They share the same hopes and dreams and wants and needs and internally they are nearly identical.
The rest of the article is just the usual leftist propaganda. You accuse him of racism, even though this is an issue of culture and religion rather than race.
Culture and Religion attached to Arabs and so discrimination on that basis. No one ever discriminates against Muslims through the cunning cut and thrust of Koranic Debate but by following brown people telling them to go home (Which was particularly puzzling since the last time that happened, I was on a tram home and had to inform the lovely gentleman that I was on my way home. Which was why I was on a tram).
It’s why immediately after the Boston Bombing people started looking for the nearest “Brown” person and wound up harassing Sunil Tripathi’s family because “Brown = Terrorist”. You may claim that this isn’t racism but from where I am sat, I have had to take my pants off an awfully large amount of times in airports while white people have not had to do that. You may claim it’s not racist but in application I am afraid this is.
Leftist Propoganda? Oh dear.
I suppose your rebuttal to my points are “main stream media”.
Furthermore I would argue that countries have a right to keep to themselves and are under no obligation to accept immigrants if it’s not in their best interest (especially in large numbers, from cultures that aren’t even remotely similar).
You say: “The Irriational and Incorrect Fear of a Non Existent Threat from Islam with heavy misrepresentation of the facts.”
I think I have categorically proven that you do have an irrational and incorrect fear of Islam with heavy misrepresentation of facts coupled with a dose of fear mongering.
I have heard that argument before in passing. I was burning with fever and needed medicine. I contracted malaria on my voyage through the desert and I was turned away. Because 5 year old Indian boys with Malaria would have destroyed the very culture of Israel.
Others showed compassion.
There is no profit in helping refugees and while you are blessed with stability and wealth, not everyone is. If you cannot show and ounce of compassion and willingness to share then I am sorry but I am sad to be part of the same community since atheism has made me compassionate.
Excuse me? So the institutionalized discrimination of non-believers as dhimmis, discrimination against women and other authoritarian aspects of Islam is “non existent”? This is almost always the case when Islam is a majority religion because mainstream Islam is inherently authoritarian.
And the same when ANY bloody religion is in the majority. Islam isn’t unique in this respect.
When Israel turned me away it was Jordanians and Palestinians who “saved me”.
Islam may discriminate but many Muslims do not.
Finally about this whole “what’s wrong with compassion?” nonsense, again more leftist propaganda. Accept our leftist policies or you’re an evil bigot, which only reinforces the notion that leftists don’t really want to argue the points, they just want to dismiss your humanity if you disagree with them on any subject.
This is where we must diisagree most vehemently.
My entire atheism is founded on compassion. Compassion I felt when I watched Muslims die for no reason because of “peaceful Hindus”. I grew up reading Hindu mythos as fables and like all fables you can learn something from them even if you don’t believe.
I learnt what duty was and decided what my rules in life are. What I am willing to do. Then India showed me what compassion is. I could harden my heart and I often have to but I still feel the wish to help others.
You may not wish to but that’s your path in life. It’s not for me to say whether it is better or worse than mine. But to be free of compassion for others is to be guilty of the same sort of bigotry that leads to people turning blind eyes to real suffering
And I repeat. What Point. You are arguing a highly hypothetical situation rather than the reality.
I’ll tell you what’s wrong. You think it’s compassionate for Syrian refugees and that’s the end of it. You don’t think about whether or not it’s compassionate for Swedish people and culture and you don’t think about the long-term consequences of unrestricted mass immigration.
Funny you should say that.
People say that I steal jobs from “hardworking white boys” (never girls though), people say that I make the UK unsafe, people say a lot of things. Funny thing though when I ask which people are these the number of people is frighteningly small. I destroy British Culture? I heard all those arguments before too. They are painful arguments to hear.
I ask this question a lot and it boggles the mind. What is British Culture. And how has my presence “ruined” it. I think the only parts of British Culture “Ruined” By my presence are apartheid and hooliganism but frankly those are bad parts of the culture.
And I think Sweden will be proud of many of it’s Syrians. And both Sweden and these Syrians will change and grow because Culture isn’t stagnant. It’s not this unchanging monolith. Culture grows with influences. Indian culture is such an amalgam and is not monolithic either. British Culture is a misnomer with different parts having different cultures and the UK hasn’t broken apart with different cultures coming in. Fish and Chips hasn’t vanished because you can get pizza, Chinese, Indian and Sushi. The Ballet hasn’t vanished now that you can go watch Kabuki. No what has happened is everyone partakes in each other’s culture and something new happens.
To date not one person worried about “British Culture” was doing anything to protect it. So forgive me if I am skeptical about the benefits of your determination to not help a handful of refugees solely because you fear that Sweden will suddenly turn into Swedenistan, I hear that argument from idiot racists all the time and it’s as stupid coming from you as it is from them.
And I have heard all these arguments before aimed specifically at me.
But then this year something amazing happened. I heard people stand up for me and stand with me.
An entire tram of strangers stood up for me in Manchester and I it moved me to tears.
We are all capable of good. And evil happens when good people don’t speak up or act. I have heard your arguments before. And I have heard Pat’s arguments before. And this year Manchester asked me what I did and were proud of me.
Why? Because you are so worried about the bad things that may happen that you forget that most people live quiet and benign lives and most people do rather a lot of good in the world.
“This idea that simply an increase in the *number of self-identified Muslims* in a country (as opposed to, say, an increase in fundamentalism, or an increase in the percentage who believe in creationism, or who discriminate based on their religion, etc.) is dangerous and going to *ruin the country* is one of the things I find so blatantly discriminatory.”
I wouldn’t use the term fundamentalism, Islam (mainstream Sunni Islam that 80-85% of the Muslim world claims to believe in) is inherently authoritarian. There are plenty of manuals of Islamic jurisprudence that describe in great detail how society should be organized, it’s both religion and political ideology. So I would use the term religiosity instead. There are some extremely religious Christians who are not on the same level of insanity (or even close) as their extremely religious Muslim counter-parts.
No. It’s just that we are more likely to put the crazy idiot waving a burning flag screaming “DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN” on TV than the calm quiet man.
Or indeed the Islamic Poet quoting Muslim making music for another Muslim to dance on a train to.
One of the things I learnt from being a refugee is to look beyond the stereotype. It is in our interest to have portrayed Muslims as terrifying barely literate savages because that fits our narrative. It’s easy to grab a picture of some backwards tribesman in the same way that it’s really easy to portray the USA as entirely filled with poverty stricken mid western americans who have a penchance for banjo music and marrying their cousins.
Plenty of Muslims fall in that category, polls after polls show that the radicals are not some “tiny 0.1% minority”, but come to half (and in some parts of the world over half) and Muslim majority countries tend to be the least free of all.
Same with Christian Majority Nations. I am sorry? My patients have better access to contraceptive advice, care, usage and abortion than women in the USA because “Christianity”.
And polls? Seriously? We have had Polls to name bridges John Stewart. Trust me, a poll means nothing about what people are really like.
And again, you seem to think that Syrians existing in Sweden will somehow steal away Swedish Freedom or something.
And I repeat this all boils down to your initial highly incorrect premise.