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Jul 31 2013

Choices

Many Christians know for a fact that being gay is a sin. BUT the weird problem is the notion  that homosexuality is a choice. But that’s the thing. So what if it is a choice?

I have no problems with homosexuality being a choice. I see it as the difference between bacon and sausages. So what if you like sausages? Some people like both. Some people like one or the other. If you are happy with your choice then go for it.

BUT if Christians see it as a choice, their problem is that they are told specifically that they should hate the GLBT are in terrible danger and that their behaviour will doom us all.

But here is the thing. They think it is choice so they portray it as a sinful choice akin to baby eating. They think it is something to be cured of.

I know people that have been on them (gay conversion programs) and done the programs a number of times and attempted suicide. It’s one of the most psychologically damaging things…

Psychologist Paul Martin

 It may not be spiritual abuse but it is psychiatric torture. It is the usage of psychology to guilt and force people into roles that they are not. In a world of “Be Yourself” they are forced to “Be What We Tell You”. Their sexual orientation hasn’t changed, they just struggle with the guilt of it and pretend to be straight because they are ultimately terrified.

They are being damaged in a fundamental way by this and this can be forever. And forever can be a very very short time. The rates of suicide in these individuals goes up because they see themselves as broken.

I know that there are people who have taken their life because they felt so ashamed of who they are, felt like God couldn’t love them as they are and that’s something that will haunt me until the day I die.

Former Exodus international president Alan Chambers

Last month one of the world’s largest ex-gay organisation, US-based Exodus International closed down.

Its leader publicly apologised to people who had suffered as a result of its ex-gay therapies.

One such person was a member of Freedom2B, a Christian GLBT community. The community was devastated after his suicide. Why?

All he wanted to do was please Jehovah. All he did was for the Church. Every single piece of suffering he endured was to make others happy but in the end he forgot that his own happiness is just as important. For that he went through programs, therapy and prayer trying to be something he really was not and in the end all the lies the Church told made him feel like that there was no hope for him.

Anti-Gay therapy is nothing but abuse. If you think all that is required to be “good” is not fucking men (as a man) then I am afraid you don’t know what value is. There are more bad things on the planet, more wickedness in the heats of men  and more things that should be treated as sins than someone loving their same gender EVEN if it is a choice. We know it’s not a choice  though. We know it’s something they are. As intrinsic as skin colour or hair colour or handedness.

So now I put it to Christians.

You too have a choice. You can wallow in hatred and the bronze aged superstition of the Old Testament. Or you can love your neighbour.

12 comments

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  1. 1
    Henry Hall

    I’m not willing to dig up, and then have to explain at enormous never-ending length, but what evidence I have seen suggests that sexual orientation is a choice for many people and innate (i.e. not a choice) for many others also. In (very) vaguely equal numbers.

    But I’m probably just about the only person in the world who holds that view since apparently the scant evidence is incompatible with the predetermined conclusion of just about everyone.

    That is to say that many think sexual orientation is a choice for everyone and many think it is a choice for no-one. Almost nobody thinks that both of those are wrong (but obviously I do).

  2. 2
    Raging Bee

    Henry Hall: Can you choose who turns you on or off? If you are currently turned on by women, can you choose to be sexually aroused by men? I know I can’t — I’ve never had even the slightest sexual feelings for any man or boy I’ve ever seen.

  3. 3
    Raging Bee

    Seriously, Henry, can you even come up with an anecdote or two to support your opinion? Your refusal to offer ANYTHING here is telling.

    Based solely on my experience, I really can’t control who I get the hots for. I can choose who I try to have sex with, of course; and I can choose to PRETEND to have feelings for someone; but that’s not the same as choosing my actual desires. I know that’s only anecdotal evidence, but that’s more evidence than I’ve ever seen to support your assertions.

  4. 4
    chigau (違う)

    Being homosexual is not a sin.
    Doing inappropriate things with your penis is a sin.
    What qualifies as ‘inappropriate’ …

  5. 5
    Marc

    I’ve heard the same question many times, is it a choice or is it genetic? And my answer is, what difference does it make? If it is a choice then the people who made it have the right to make that choice, plain and simple.
    Do you believe in the freedom of religion? Should you be forced, if you’re Christian (as an example), to live by Sharia Laws? If you don’t want the religious beliefs of others forced on you, then why should the non-religious/or those who don’t share your chosen flavour of belief, have to abide by “your” religious dictates?

  6. 6
    bmiller

    Being a Christian is a choice*. Given the horrors committed in the name of Yahweh, maybe we need to have reparative therapy for Christianity?

    *It’s more often a matter of family/cultural background, but…

  7. 7
    thascius

    The only people I’ve ever known for whom it was any kind of “choice” were bisexuals. And it wasn’t so much a choice of who they were attracted to but what they did with that attraction. The only “ex-gay” I ever met who was truly happily married to a woman had been attracted to women before he became “ex-gay,” and was still attracted to men afterwards.
    And @ 4-why should anyone get to decide what’s “inappropriate” for someone else? So long as it involves consenting adults, I don’t see why it should be anyone else’s business.

  8. 8
    HenryHall

    There is anecdotal evidence that many people undergo a change of sexual orientation as they pass through a transsexual transition. And roughly as many do not..

    You can debate all day on what is meant by “change of sexual orientation” but whatever defintion you settle on it remains that many people undergo a change as they pass through a transsexual transition and many do not. That suggests that it is innate for some and malleable for others.

    If, big if, you accept that sexual orientation is a choice for some people then overwhelmingly (outside any context of transsexualism) such people will go with the flow and adopt heterosexualism. Those who are homosexual will almost always be people who do not have a choice as to their sexual orientation.

    But it is conceivable that, in an EXTREMELY rare case a person who has a free choice rebels against all upbringing and heterosexual pressure and becomes homosexual. Such a person might actually be able to respond to reparative therapy. Reparative therapy then is likely to be harmful if tried on 99+% of homosexual people but it just might genuinely work in an extremely rare case.

    You might, correctly, say that is would take a (literal, genuine) miracle to pray away the gay. But of course churches are exactly the people who are in the miracle business. Trying reparative therapy then is a bit like buying a lottery ticket, you are virtually certain to lose but that won’t stop people trying against all hope. Miracles do happen, just not every day and never ever for most people.

  9. 9
    Raging Bee

    “There is anecdotal evidence…You can debate all day on what is meant by…it is conceivable that…” Is that all you’ve got, Henry? Waffling, weasel-words, and vague groundless maybes? Your “case” is as limp, greasy and transparent as a McDonalds french-fry.

    And even that bafflegab only seems to apply to people “pass[ing] through a transsexual transition” — which isn’t exactly a representative sample of the general population.

    You can debate all day on what is meant by “change of sexual orientation” but whatever defintion you settle on it remains that many people undergo a change as they pass through a transsexual transition and many do not. That suggests that it is innate for some and malleable for others.

    You’re certain that some people do a certain thing, even though you admit there isn’t a standard definition of what that thing is? That’s bullshit.

    But it is conceivable that, in an EXTREMELY rare case a person who has a free choice rebels against all upbringing and heterosexual pressure and becomes homosexual.

    Just because you say something is “conceivable” doesn’t mean it actually happens — especially when you once again fail to provide anything other than your own imaginings. I write science-fiction, so I know fine well that conceiving of something doesn’t prove anything.

    And you still haven’t answered my question: can you make a conscious choice to change who you get the hots for? Because there’s plenty of gay people who tried to choose to be straight, and repeatedly failed. If you listened to real gay people with an open mind, you’d know this already.

  10. 10
    thascius

    “There is anecdotal evidence that many people undergo a change of sexual orientation as they pass through a transsexual transition.” Really? I’ve never heard that particular claim before. While I don’t know a huge number of transgender individuals in real life, they’ve never related anything like that. All of them in fact are heterosexual (as defined by their self-identified gender). I know some people assume a “pre-transition” trans woman is essentially a gay man (people who obviously don’t know much about homosexuals or transgender people but anyway) and those people are surprised to discover that there are a fair number of trans women who are lesbians or bisexual, but that doesn’t mean a change in sexual orientation. It’s also possible that some trans individuals may try to identify as heterosexual members of their birth gender before they accept themselves as trans, and only then accept their sexual attraction for what it is. For that matter a self-reported “change of sexual orientation” doesn’t necessarily mean a whole lot. Many “ex-gays” claimed a complete change in sexual orientation-only to be caught in compromising positions later which proved this “change” was nothing more than wishful thinking. People aren’t always honest with themselves, let alone others, about what their sexual orientation is. There was a survey about a decade ago looking at various physical and mental health measures of men who have sex with me. Among other things, participants were asked what their sexual orientation was. A little over a fifth of the respondents (who by participating in the survey admitted to engaging in homosexual activity) said they were “exclusively heterosexual.”

  11. 11
    thascius

    Urk. In my post at 10 when I said “All of them in fact are heterosexual (as defined by their self-identified gender).” I did not intend to imply that a trans individuals gender as defined by themselves is in any sense not genuine or less valid than a cis-gendered persons self-identified gender.

  12. 12
    thascius

    Again @ 10″There was a survey about a decade ago looking at various physical and mental health measures of men who have sex with me.” should read “men who have sex with MEN.”

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