MRA thinks Women in Medicine are a Waste of Time


We shouldn’t train women to be doctors! Says Angry Harry.

Thank You Luthor!

My opinion is as above.
Doctors are a weird bunch. In most of the world the profession has been blown wide open by the equality of women and they keep showing up with better grades than us men to take more medical seats. In the UK the numbers have actually reached the point where people are worried about the lack of young men entering the course and are thinking of plans to get more young men into the course.

Let’s not beat about the bush here, the author of this article thinks that training women up to be doctors is a waste of money implying that we should not even bother training them because their biological clocks will suddenly make them lay eggs or whatever it is Angry Harry thinks women do.

60% of women doctors will give up their ‘careers’ within about 10 years.
The continuing deterioration of the National Health Service despite the enormous extra sums of money being put into it by the taxpayer is largely thanks to the training of more and more women to become doctors in the place of men.
The NHS does not pay for training. The subsidy you receive to study medicine in the UK is consistently the lowest meaning you pay the HIGHEST fees. Even the current £9000 average is not for the students of English or Law or Engineering, but for medical students. The majority of the NHS’s budget goes into staff fees. The normal international student cost of medical school is around £ 17,000 to £20,000.

Let’s call it the government paying £10,000 per student since the rest is a loan that has to be paid back. This works out at 70 medical students per year times 5 years times 30 medical schools as £105,000,000 which gets paid back in an equal number of years.

The average medical student makes 30,000 pounds per year in the first year alone because of overtime for doing night shifts. This when taxed is £7,500. The next year the taxation goes up as an F2 grade to nearly £10,000 when including the supplementary pay. Basically you pay your medical school subsidy off in 5 years. The current argument is actually that you are stuck in debt for a lot longer than you used to be making medicine (an already mug’s game in terms of earning money) a less secure earning that it used to be. There are courses that require half the work and give you the same amount of earning, a lot of people decide to go work as lawyers and stockbrokers simply because you earn more than say a doctor who has to spend hours busting his head open on books daily.

The MRA attitude that doctors are some sort of “alpha male job” only works if you are “a fucking idiot”. Being a doctor is a lot of work and a lot of time. You have to work all sorts of arses off and have a drive for depriving yourself of a lot of luxuries. You only assume it’s “Alpha” because we earn money for our degree and frankly if you spent 10 to 15 years training, did a stressful job and had to keep learning throughout your life then you would demand a high salary too.

And you may ask, why would a women work after she is married? Because women doctors are smart and earn a lot of money compared to their peers. They don’t like sitting at home and twiddling their thumbs. And because they are in debt. Lest you forget that by the time you finish medical school you often have £50K (to £90K) plus in debt that needs paying off. In addition you have to realise that female doctors want LUXURIES. I am planning to buy something ridiculously expensive (I look at estate agents and flats to plan things I want to buy) with my money. It sounds greedy but frankly, I like luxuries. I like having it and I like 

In areas such as medicine, the requirement to give women ‘equal opportunities’ by demanding that medical schools try to train as many women as they do men to become doctors is leading to far worse conditions and shortfalls in the NHS – a service that is already failing the country abysmally.

That’s not what has happened. Women are just better than men at exams. I am not the best in my year here. It’s a bunch of women. When I come home I want to watch some television and maybe relax and indeed blog. The girls? They come home and study.

Naturally men’s rights activists will probably say that “they are stupider than us so they have to work a lot more”. Granted, but they are getting the highest scores not me. The stupid one in this is me because I am unwilling to do what needs to be done to beat them.

Most people have a great deal of sympathy with the view that women should be permitted to become doctors working for the NHS if they have the requisite abilities – even if they do log out of the system to bring up families. But there is a price to be paid! In the case of the NHS, everyone who uses it pays a price – particularly the old, the young, the weak, the vulnerable and the sick.

Women drop out to raise their families for a while because being a doctor is a lot of work. They often use that time period to study for competitive exams timing their kids to bring them up and spend a year or two reading. When their kids are old enough to send to a crèche or primary school, the women come back to work.

This is because women are expected to raise a family rather then just work. They have to “drop out to raise a family” in that they take maternity leave. Most doctors show up back to work after a year. And you are describing it as some sort of mass exodus leaving patients dangling in the wind rather than there being back ups. Women doctors usually marry other medical professionals due to being in contact with them at work and because they understand what the other has to put up with.

Most women go back to work in their CAREER of medicine because it earns “mad moneyz” which makes it easier to have stuff that helps kids.

Indeed, many times more women are negatively affected by an impoverished NHS than there are women doctors. Indeed, all women are affected by this. Further, of course, all of us will need medical treatment at some stage in our lives, and so all of us will suffer from the adverse effects of an NHS that is greatly diminished by the low long-term career aspirations of a relatively small number of women.

Most people are seen quite quickly in the UK. The NHS is actually far superior to the american system of medicine and is easily within the top 20 systems of the world. The waiting list is common because number of people being treated always exceeds number of doctors. You are falling for the Daily Mail mental image of wards being choked with patients who are dying of the plague. The reality is different.

Moreover, the country loses the potential talents of all those young men who would have embarked upon long-term careers in medicine were it not for the fact that women were taking up the places at medical schools.

If they were talented they would have gotten in. The women were the talented ones. And do you want us to set aside a quota for you? 10% of the course must be whiney cry baby men who couldn’t compete for a spot in fair contest? The entry into medical school is based on quality and women keep showing that they are better than us because the idea of empathy in men is so abhorrent that you criticise men who show that. In addition you demonise smart men and ostracise us while encouraging a “macho culture” of “fuck education” which results in fewer capable men.

         Do we force women doctors to stay at their posts so that the gender balance of highly-experienced doctors remains the same throughout the decades?

Highly experienced? You yourself stated that they quit in under 10 years. Which is it then? Loss of highly experienced personnel or people who only worked 10 years in medicine?

         Do we train twice as many women doctors as men in medical schools to allow for the fact that half of the women will drop out – on the grounds that unless we do this women will not have access to the same number of experienced women doctors as men have to men doctors? Would this achieve ‘gender equity’?

We don’t train people by gender. We train people by how well they do when they get into the course. If you didn’t cut it then “go back and try again”. If you do get in then you still have to fight through medical school’s series of exams.

One of the most interesting things is the number of men who make up obstetrics and  gynaecology (Ob/Gyn). It’s a lot. Most women (the studies say above 60%) don’t care about the gender of their doctor and would quite happily see male doctors even with troubles related to gynaecology.

I am surprised that you haven’t said that the “dearth of male doctors” would cause a decline in men’s health.

Because women doctors drop like flies out of the profession, there ends up being a shortage of doctors. This raises the value of doctors and, hence, their incomes, and so the average pay for men rises (as does their attractiveness to non-earning wives) while that of women, relatively, falls.

The income of doctors is actually “pretty low”. Doctor’s salaries have been pretty fixed and a lot of doctors now fall under the highest tax band of nearly 50%. We earn so much because we are valuable. If we were to move to the USA or say Australia our incomes would be a “Lot Higher”. The more doctors there are the more we would earn because our union (the GMC) would get a lot more stronger and we would up our salaries. The doctor’s salaries have not increased with inflation like the nurses have and we would need a pay rise. The relative shortage of doctors is due to our aging population and not because women keep leaving.

Also… MRAs… Are you guys nuts? I don’t want a housewife. A non-earning wife seems “dull” to me. What would we talk about? I want someone who I can talk to and who is interesting and can understand what I do. Most doctors marry other doctors or nurses or physiotherapists.

Do you want to know the simplest thing that can be done to reduce female drop out from the NHS? Bring back the crèche budget. Doctors are human beings with families as well and women are still expected to care for their children (this is a fault of men who refuse to care for their kids in an equal capacity). Intelligent women are still expected to care for kids when their husbands can do it just as easily.

To quote the fictitious survivalist Col. Corazon Santiago from Alpha Centauri.

“Proper care and education for our children remains a cornerstone of our entire colonization effort. Children not only shape our future; they determine in many ways our present. Men and women work harder knowing their children are safe and close at hand, and never forget that, with children present, parents will defend their home to the death!”

This is the truth. People work a lot better knowing that their children are close at hand and safe. The NHS used to have on site crèche facilities at their hospitals. Re-introduction of free crèche facilities for NHS children would boost women returning to work and would a damn sight cheaper than the drop out rate. One sees women in certain hospitals return to work faster simply because of crèche facilities.

         Forty years ago, those who interviewed students who wanted places at medical schools used to grill them very aggressively with questions designed to find out how likely they were to stick with the profession once they had qualified. They did not want to expend their scarce resources training people who were going to end up wasting them.

Have you been to a medical school interview? It’s not easy.

Oh and an interview doesn’t mean you can hack the life.

         Yep; we actually have to poach doctors from some very impoverished parts of the world because 60% of our own women doctors give up their jobs within ten years, with a further huge percentage only willing to work part time.

The entire drop out rate of junior doctors is 25%. Men and women together, because the working conditions and pay is abhorrent not because of family. Women who stay tend to work for a few more years until they are settled in one place for their specialist training before having children. Their return rate is high. The transfer from junior to senior doctors has a 22% failure rate by people failing exams.

It shows that nearly 190,000 doctors and nurses have come to the country from outside the EU in just eight years.

The international doctors who come to the NHS are actually quite few. 386,400 nurses, 109,000 doctors according to the Daily Mail. If 190,000 of them are from outside the EU then quite frankly that means 38% of the NHS is foreign.

There are 30 medical schools (assume all of these have been around for 8 years). They have a cohort of roughly 100 students (usually 70). 3000 Students per year graduate in the UK. 3000 x 8 = 24,000 doctors. If 25% drop out then it’s 18,000 doctors. A number far far short of that 190,000 doctors we supposedly hire.

The issue is we have a dearth in our medical system because we have a population that is getting old, we aren’t replacing our doctors as fast as we are losing them because we are losing them at a higher rate. Not because women are dropping out.

         Perhaps, therefore, instead of listening to those man-hating feminists, who perpetually, and vociferously, blame men for the fact that women were denied important jobs in the past, we should take note that the three main reasons that women were ‘denied’ such jobs in the past were as follows. 
1. Those jobs were important – for all of us.
2. Women did not want to do them.
3. Women would not have been much good at doing them – in comparison to men – because they kept quitting! 
As such, it was quite right that men were favoured in the past for such jobs.

I will say this right now. Women routinely score higher than men in medicine. They do so in numbers. You can say “men came first!” but we fail to realise how much of the other ranks are made up of women.

1. We need more women in medicine because we as a society can double our economical power by not having half our workforce sit around on their thumbs all day.

2. Women want to be doctors. It’s why they make up the bulk of medical students

3. They keep quitting because men are assholes who stand in the way of their progress (for example in women surgeons) or they have to go take care of a kid because we don’t have crèche facilities and traditionally do not expect men to do any child rearing. If we had a balanced society men would drop out just as much as women.

If we favour men now it would actually be rejecting superior candidates in exchange for inferior ones. I will admit that women are better than me in a lot of cases in medicine.

The rest of the article is cases of people who fear for things and mocking a woman who is deathly scared of HIV. Put it this way MRAs, go see your cardiologist and watch what they eat. They eat like that because they fear what happens when you eat like a normal human. Men get it too.

Let us real men, show you how it’s done MRAs. I propose this. The drop out rate of women to care for their children will reduce with these simple changes to the NHS.

1. Children’s Crèche - Free for all medical personnel. Nurses won’t drop out as much either to care for their children since most medical personnel work long hours that normal crèche don’t stay open for.

2. Paternity leave - You want equality in job opportunity? Women will always be slaves to the uterus and it’s ability to birth children. People will always discriminate against women if they take time off to care for the next generation. We stop that by giving men time off. Is that not equality?

For all the whining of the MRAs about how women now are becoming the dominant gender in Medicine they haven’t asked an important question.

Why aren’t we encouraging more men to join Nursing? Until then MRAs.

Don’t worry. I am a doctor. Let me call you the Waaahmbulance…

 

Waaah!

Comments

  1. says

    You’re funny, Avicenna. But yeah, I agree with your list of suggestions. My little sister is completing her residency and she has a daughter who’s nearing her second birthday. The only reason this is remotely possible is because her husband has chosen to be a stay-at-home dad. We should structure all of our workplaces to be accommodating for people with young children because a well-raised generation of kids is a social good that benefits everyone.

  2. says

    The issue is we have a dearth in our medical system because we have a population that is getting old, we aren’t replacing our doctors as fast as we are losing them because we are losing them at a higher rate.

    It also doesn’t help that medical school costs have become a “bet your life” proposition!

  3. says

    If this guy is worried about women being able to opt out of a profession after they’ve got all the necessary training, then here’s an idea for him: rig our economy so women can’t have as many choices, so they’ll never betray those who depend on them no matter how lousy their pay and benefits are…oh wait, we already have that. So what the fuck is this guy’s problem?

  4. says

    Wow, misogyny AND xenophobia in one entry. That’s the one-two punch. As always, you have exactly the right words to say. I have nothing to add; will just continue wishing we even had the *option* of free or reduced-cost creche here in the US.

  5. jackiepaper says

    And you may ask, why would a women work after she is married?

    No, I wouldn’t. I would no more ask that about a woman than I would of a man. I would assume that she was simply doing what she wanted to with her life. That would be especially evident to me if she’s spent years seeking education and specialized training to do that work.

    They don’t like sitting at home and twiddling their thumbs.

    Is that really what you think SAHMs do? Newsflash: it isn’t. Bon bons aren’t involved either. Is the work sometimes repetitive to the point that it can be boring? Definitely. I assume the same can be said of accounting, but I don’t accuse my accountant of sitting around twiddling her thumbs.

    A non-earning wife seems “dull” to me. What would we talk about? I want someone who I can talk to and who is interesting and can understand what I do.

    Two issues with this one.

    1. Please consider how insulting you’ve just been to parents who do stay home to raise families full time. I assure you that not having a paying job did not cancel out my education (incomplete as it is) nor does it prevent me from being interesting or understanding what other people do. (Nor does having a job keep my husband from understanding what I do.) Seriously, do you think all I’m capable of conversing about are pot roasts and Legos? Stereotyping SAHMs as dull, stupid and ignorant is just as wrong as this MRAsshole stereotyping women as less qualified for the medical field. IMO the attitude that anything traditionally identified as “women’s work” is neither work, nor does it require any level of skill or intelligence is just plain sexist. In fact, MRAs make those claims too. Undervaluing women’s traditional roles is not empowering to women. We should be enthusiastically expanding the scope of what men and woman can choose to do and be. Shaming someone for staying home is not that different from shaming them for working outside the home. There is a constant catch 22 for women in every aspect of our lives. Whatever we do, we will be told it is the wrong thing to do. Just like we’re either prudes or sluts, we’re also either too lazy/stupid to work, or we’re too selfish/detached from our kids. Just like the former, the latter is nonsense.

    2. What does how attractive a woman is as a prospective spouse have to do with whether or not women should be allowed in medical school? I think this helps perpetrate the idea that no matter what a woman does, the most important factor defining her is whether or not she is attractive to a man.

    Other than that, excellent response.

  6. Onamission5 says

    I have the same issues with this post as jackiepaper. I am a SAHM, and by far and away the last thing I do is sit around dully twiddling my thumbs. I have meetings, therapies, classes, I shuttle family to and fro, I keep track of scheduling, budgeting, housekeeping, act as nurse, mediator, tutor, meal planning and prep, I am expected to be up to date on all the latest early childhood educational strategies and changes, to know all the current lingo in that regard, and to have enough mastery of current teaching techniques to back up what the kids have learned at school. I may not be working for money, I may not be working in any of the three fields in which I was educated and/or trained (that would be cooking, writing, and gender studies) but I use that training constantly in my unpaid work. You know what I get for my troubles? I have my work and my person constantly publicly devalued, save for one day a year when Hallmark decides I’m a schmarmy cliché, then I get to go back to being considered dull and lazy.

    Fuck that. I work. I work HARD. I work hard every. fucking. day. at a job which is emotionally and physically draining, and for that trouble I have to put up with an incessant social script that says all I do is watch tv, eat bonbons and get my hair done, and have no interesting thoughts or personal complexity?

    Please, when blasting away at MRA’s, watch for splash damage. I am not an inherently less valuable or less interesting person just because my 24/7/365 work is undervalued and unpaid.

  7. cee says

    Sitting at home and twiddling their thumbs? nice backhand, I appreciate the rug being pulled out from under me like that. Keeps me knowing my place and where I don’t belong.

  8. says

    Sorry, I read Avicenna’s comments as referring to people who don’t work after getting married, despite not having children. That may have been careless of me (I’m not sensitized to the issue since I don’t have kids) but I think Avicenna would do well to listen to this criticism.

  9. smrnda says

    On female physicians – it’s far from unanimous, but I know of a few women who prefer women physicians, so there ought to be some available if only because of that. In fact, I’ve even known a few men who said they preferred women as doctors though I never asked too much about why.

    As for why women keep working after they have kids, most that I know who do continue to work feel that, with kids in school much of the day, they simply don’t need a full time parent at home. Money is also an issue. I’m not sure that the cost-benefit analysis works out the same for all families, but overall, it seems that continuing to work after having kids is so normal that I see no reason to worry that women who go into the medical profession *will* drop out if they have kids. I see 2 doctors regularly who are both women with kids whose husbands also work.

  10. Ysanne says

    Fuck that. I work. I work HARD. I work hard every. fucking. day. at a job which is emotionally and physically draining,

    And a lot of people (including myself, my partner, and my parents when I was a kid) manage to do most of that PLUS work a full time job. So while being a SAHM is work and shouldn’t be called “doing nothing”, you may want to get some perspective on workloads and what non-SAH-people do.

  11. says

    You have to remember that we do everything a SAHM does and we do our jobs on top of that. We don’t just come home to a pig sty and wallow you know… Hell. I do my “entire” day of 10 hours then come home and cook and clean.

    All of us do that. It may sound weird to you but I don’t know any doctors who hire “help”. Maybe in India where domestic help is cheap but in the west you really don’t have the money to hire a cook or a nanny or a maid.

  12. Seeing/analyzing says

    Avicenna: >>A non-earning wife seems “dull” to me. What would we talk about? >> Silly, silly person! An MRA doesn’t want a wife to talk to; he wants a blow-up doll with a porn-star body who can also make him a sammich.

    Avicenna again: >>You have to remember that we do everything a SAHM does and we do our jobs on top of that. We don’t just come home to a pig sty and wallow you know… Hell. I do my “entire” day of 10 hours then come home and cook and clean. >> Why, yes; yes, we do. Working mothers drive the kids around and tutor the kids and make the doctor appointments and deal with the plumber and the cable guy and cook and clean and take the dog to the vet, and all the other things SAHMs do…we just do it in addition to putting in 8 or 9 or 10 hours of paid work.

  13. says

    You know what’s sexist? Shitting on women’s choices and saying that some women’s professions are less valuable (and therefore those women worth as much).

    Domestic labor is labor. Assuming that SAHPs aren’t working parents, that staying home means “twiddling your thumbs all day”, feeds into the misogynistic idea that breadwinners are worth more than homemakers. Yes, belittling the work that is traditionally “women’s work”, and the women who do that work, is misogynist.

    Domestic labor is labor. Pissing contests about whose work is harder and who spends more hours working is 1) a shitty thing to do to women, and 2) not going to put a career mother over a SAHM in every case or even in many cases.

  14. Onamission5 says

    I actually do remember that working women do all the things in addition to holding down paying gigs, because I was a working, single mom for ten years, who was also a full time student for three of those years. That doesn’t mean that the unpaid work I currently do has less value or that I am now a boring, lazy person living a carefree life of luxury because I don’t have three jobs any more. I didn’t lose personal complexity or cease to have interesting or valid point of view when I left my paying job to take care of four children. I identify with working women quite well, I know those struggles, I have been one and probably will be again, and I am not going to devalue that struggle. I am just very tired of being devalued– as a woman and a human being– for not earning pay, and having that be okay because the perception of housewives as vapid, spoiled, bonbon eating lazy sacks of brainless shit is so insidious and pervasive that people don’t even see it when they reinforce that perception.

    It’s not a competition. We, the women who work for pay and we who do unpaid work, do not have to devalue each other in order to make a point against MRA’s. We’re all up against the same shit, the same attitudes, the same sorts of social scripts that say we’re never good enough, that what we do has lesser value. I hate that it so often becomes a competition where one set of women throws another under the bus to make a point against a common enemy.

  15. ApostateltsopA says

    Avicenna that is some shit you are spewing, some seriously privileged shit. You just spent your blog talking about expanded free cretch services. That service is the job, well part if it, that you just slammed SAHP for. Do you think the people looking after the children of doctors and nurses are dull or does dullness only set in when there is no pay check? Moreover those of us who work are not watching our kids while we work, so don’t equate the two. Someone at school or in a day care role is looking after the little ones.

  16. Nathair says

    So while being a SAHM is work and shouldn’t be called “doing nothing”, you may want to get some perspective on workloads and what non-SAH-people do.

    I got my first full time job in the 1980s. I worked nights throughout (and to pay for) college. Then a little over two years ago (that’s over twenty years after I started working) I left my career to became a full time stay-at-home-parent. Does that give me enough perspective? Does that qualify me to make the comparison? Then let me say this; Fuck that. I work. I work HARD. I work hard every. fucking. day. at a job which is emotionally and physically draining.

  17. Seeing/analyzing says

    “I am just very tired of being devalued– as a woman and a human being– for not earning pay, and having that be okay because the perception of housewives as vapid, spoiled, bonbon eating lazy sacks of brainless shit is so insidious and pervasive that people don’t even see it when they reinforce that perception.”

    Working mothers are very tired of being devalued as selfish, children-hating ball-busters who have the gall to consider themselves anything but “my kid’s MOM”, and who never, ever cook a meal or wash a load of laundry and would rather spit on their child rather than help them with their homework.

    “We, the women who work for pay and we who do unpaid work, do not have to devalue each other in order to make a point against MRA’s. We’re all up against the same shit, the same attitudes, the same sorts of social scripts that say we’re never good enough, that what we do has lesser value.>

    Agreed. I think I’m raw from 18 years of excoriating by right-wing nutjobs and other conservatives that women who use their educations to work for pay must necessarily hate the very families they’re supporting.

  18. says

    For fuck’s sake, do you really want to start the mommy wars here?
    Yes, SAHP do a lot of work and they are not sitting on their thumbs.
    And yes, working parents do their chores plus their jobs.
    And they are not bastards for putting their kids in daycare. And they are not lazy if they hire a help (and yes, I DO know many middle-class working parents who do. Because yes, they have more money than time and actually would rather spend the weekend with their family than the broom)
    Stop shitting on each other, damn you.
    Don’t you see that those are choices that mostly women have to make and that they’re getting shit either way? So, you either accept that different people make different choices and that there might actually be reasons for those choices and that yes, not everybody can haul the same amount of work but that doesn’t make that person less worthy and fight together for more and better choices, or you can just walk over to the MRAs and sit with them (there’s space there for both. Some MRAs will gladly take the working mum and praise her for “taking responsibility”, others will gladly take the SAHM and praise her for being a real woman).

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