Quantcast

«

»

Feb 03 2013

Screw You Guys! I am Going Home

Want to know something amusing?

Israel has become the first country to boycott a UN Review of Human Rights Practices which is a process which EVERY member state of the UN has participated.

Every 4 years, all 193 members submit to a scrutiny of their human rights record.

Israel claims it’s because of a “Anti-Israel Bias” (AKA the UN’s insistence to destroy the fences and remove illegal settlements and to halt it’s indiscriminate usage of aid control as collective punishment). It claimed that it was being used to demonise and bash Israel.

What do you want me to say? This is the behaviour of arseholes.

21 comments

Skip to comment form

  1. 1
    glodson

    I’ve already got a headache imagining how people will support Israel in this.

  2. 2
  3. 3
    john sullivan

    Israel is yet another “sacred” institution with a claim to a connection to God that has revealed itself to be the opposite. Catholic Priesthood, another one

  4. 4
    unbound

    I’m with john sullivan, Israel is 2nd only to the Catholic hierarchy in being completely clueless how bad they actually are.

  5. 5
    dravid

    Superficial. Do a bit of research into what really happens in the UN. The worst offenders of Human Rights use the UN to attack Israel (wait for it), on human rights.

    They are the only Democracy in the area. Critical Thinking is a two way street, you put shit on religious people (as I do) because they don’t consider the evidence but make the same mistake with politics.

    Do some research and then make a real contribution to the debate. In a democracy you have a right to believe or not believe, want to be an atheist in Israel, no problem. Cross any of Israel’s borders and atheism will get you killed.

  6. 6
    dukeofomnium

    It’s the behavior of a “rogue state”.

  7. 7
    Marcus Ranum

    Well, admittedly Israel has been severely hurt by the economic boycott they’ve been suffering for developing nuclear weapons and proliferating nuclear weapons tech to South Africa. No doubt they’re stinging from that. Right?

  8. 8
    Avicenna

    @Dravid

    You mean like how Israel got away scott free with Shabra and Shatilla?
    OR Collective Punishment? Or Encroachment? Or Illegal Settlements? Or the Ghettoisation of Palestine?

    1. They are NOT the only democracy in the area. Lebanon is a democracy (Oh!) as is Palestine. Well Palestinian Democracy is generally ruined because Israel doesn’t let them vote for who they want.

    2. I actually was born in the region.

    3. The creation of Israel was “Epic Stupidity of the Highest Level And Entrenched In The Racism Of The Time Period Where People Did Not Care About Non White People”. The excuse to create Israel was laughably stupid and we have fucked over Palestinians. We have fucked them as badly as Native Americans or Aborigines or how the British Fucked Over Indians. They live in fucking ghettoes. It would be ironic if it wasn’t so bloody tragic. If you were a Palestinian you would be understandably “fucking pissed off”. They lost their homes. Why SHOULD they take the fall for collective western guilt on fucking over Jews for centuries. Two wrongs don’t make a right. The Jewish claim to Israel is STUPID and should never have been tolerated. It’s like throwing all the white americans into a camp in Death Valley because the entire land now belongs to the Native Americans.

    You can be an atheist in Israel.

    You cannot be A PALESTINIAN Though and remember this. The kind of threats you made about killing dissent are precisely what’s the problem. How are they any different from the Khmer Rouge who killed any people who dared to threaten their existence.

    In the words of my Jewish flatmate (Sinti Jew, so not very well treated in Israel because you know… Racism…). Israel has learnt nothing and everything from the holocaust.

  9. 9
    mikmik

    @ Avicenna February 4, 2013 at 6:03 AM #8

    Not only that, but anytime there is an agreement to suspend building settlements in Palestine territory, specifically the occupied E1, Israel shortly finds reason to continue building there at some perceived slight, or to use as a bargaining ploy.

    Or, Israel crosses the border clandestinely and assassinates or kidnaps Hamas members, who were democratically elected, dravid, provoking a retaliation, usually shelling, so then

  10. 10
    mikmik

    How that happened? Continuing:
    so then Israel ‘retaliates’ by sending in the fighters and bombers for a little ‘targeted’ destruction. Even Obama is starting to put pressure on Netanyahu by threatening to drop support for the hardliner tactics, like not lifting the blockade. Palestine is under siege, it has been completely ghettoized, and almost no international support at all.

    Then they make excuses for their petulant behavior – the so called anti Israel bias in this case – that they brought on themselves in the first place. And now they treat Palestinians as bad as Jews where treated in Poland in the 30′s.

    Fuck

  11. 11
    dravid

    The article was about why Israel pull out of the UN review and the comment are all about Israel bashing and not the issue of why. Like I said, superficial.

    Interesting, in microcosm we have an example of why the Israel/Palestinian problem is not solvable. On one hand we have a democracy who have been willing to compromise and were very near a solution many years ago with only one condition, recognize Israel’s right to exist. What did they get, no agreement. This is because if the Arabs win a war against Israel they will drive all the Jews into the sea. Their stated aim is to eradicate Israel and replace it with an Islamic State. Israel is a fact of life, get over it.

    By the way, 150 odd Nobel prizes to the Jews, maybe 3 to the Arabs, I’ll back the Jews every time. There is your evidence of worth to the world community. One are builders and the other only know how to destroy, mostly themselves.

  12. 12
    Avicenna

    1. Except Israel has done some bloody awful things and gotten away with it. Including Shabra and Shatilla which is a genuine bonafide “rape and massacre”. And that whole disenfranchisment and ghettoisation of an entire group of people malarky.

    2. You keep using the word Democracy. I don’t think you know what it means. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006) Palestine IS a democracy. They however are NOT allowed to vote for who they want because Israel keeps killing their politicians or straight up ignoring international law. The reason Hamas are popular is the same reason Robin Hood was popular. In fact due to the variety of offences into Palestine since 2006 the Palestinian election has been postponed over and over again. 2013 is Election year. Lebanon is also going to the polls this year. I know my politics sufficiently to know that the “Israel is the Only Middle Eastern Democracy” is just an outright lie because you would have to ignore Palestine and Lebanon.

    3. Why should they recognise the right to exist. Israel doesn’t recognise theirs. Israel has repeatedly proven to not recognise theirs. And recongition of Israel means people give up their LAND. Their homes. Their STUFF. Fuck? It’s simple. Palestine are like Native Americans. Their violence is the violence of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull. And all those nameless natives who died fighting for their way of life and their lands. Why should some western europeans show up and tell the Palestinians that because of their holy book and a dubious claim that’s nearly 2000 years old… that the Palestinians have to live the land they live on because Europeans went a bit crazy with Anti-semiticsm. It’s like me grabbing some oppressed Afghani women, bringing them to where you live, kicking you out of your house with whatever you can stuff into a bag to go live at the bottom of the garden while they live in your house. Because I quote the line “blessed are the meek” and “Muslim Woman in Afghanistan” is as meek as they come. You would be mad. There is no logic to my actions. Yet we did that to the Palestinians.

    4. The “Solution” always invokes Palestinians giving up land to Israel and giving up the right to return they claim. No Dice. No one would take that. Not unless Israel HAEMORRHAGED money at them at the rate we haemorrhage money at Israel.

    5. Dravid. Did you know Gandhi never had a Peace Prize? GANDHI. There has been literally no man like him since. For all his flaws he still achieved the demolotion of a super power through peaceful agitation. The Man Who Broke Colonialism. The man who created the blueprint of peaceful revolution. The man whose methods broke the Apartheid in Africa and America. He never got one. The Half Naked Fakir was considered a peaceful man REPEATEDLY at the time and was a legend. When he came to the UK people flocked to meet the man. Yet never received one because the time period was “awfully fucking racist”. Ramanujan never had one too and was a mathematician of sublime ability in the same category as John Nash. Sathyendra Bose (AKA The guy who postulated Bosons for which they build the entire freaking Large Hadron Collider) did not receive a Nobel Prize. Bhaba actually had to BUILD AN ATOMIC WEAPON before Nuclear Scientists took him seriously (No really. He was refused to be treated as a scientist because he was an Indian. So he made the Smiling Buddha which was India’s first nuke. To PROVE he was a nuclear physicist and one of the foremost in the world at the time and should have been let into conferences and taken more seriously). The Nobel Prize committee was Awfully Fucking Racist at the time. As was the scientific community. And indeed the Nobel Committee is extremely America and Euro centric. Hence the year Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize, he actually beat a woman who was giving out Obs/Gynae care in Mogadishu while dodging the guns of milita groups. A woman who along with her daughters repeatedly faced down guns and tanks to get women healthcare. And they gave it to someone who won an election. I know a woman who was put up for the Nobel Peace Prize for running ILLEGAL shelters in Afghanistan where she would protect women from rape, murder, honour crime, acid attacks. And you are telling me some American bloke who won an election deserved it more? The world outside Europe and North America know that the Nobel Prize Committee has no Idea what’s going outside the western world.

    6. I know Jews like to portray themselves as constantly being refugees for 2 millenia but they got to STAY in countries for long periods of time. While 2 generations of Palestinians have had their educations disrupted. Also? You do realise the Jews were allowed to get educated in western nations. Palestinians were kept poor by colonial masters and then had all their stuff taken from them repeatedly. Refugees Who Live in Camps Do Not Produce Nobel Laureates In Science. Being Bombed Also Is Surprisingly Not Conducive to Sciences. When I was being bombed my grades dropped precipitously (to be fair my school also dropped precipitously but not after jumping 30 feet into the air and scattering itself over a wide area)

    7. You do realise the Palestinians see the Israelis as western colonialist invaders because “that’s what they are”. And we never considered colonialism to be acceptable. It’s simple. The Israeli claim is basically the same as “manifest destiny”.

    There are two solutions to the Middle East Peace Process.

    1. We throw Israel to the dogs and destroy the Illegal Settlements. We also get Israel to fork out damages and PAY for the land they took to create Israel. In addition we provide Palestine with the SAME technological base as Israel. We also force Israel back to the Green Line and tear down the fences. Oh and in addition as a peace offering Jerusalem is placed under UN control. Neither of them get it but they can visit it. Or knowing my sense of humour, I would give it to the Palestinians. If Israel isn’t a theocracy then they should have no problems with Jerusalem being a peace offering. It would placate the Palestinians and form a basis for peaceful interaction since both societies would have to play nice. But it would create a cold war since both sides hate each other along sectarian lines since the wounds aren’t healed. This is amputation.

    2. We throw both countries to the dogs and dissolve Israel AND Palestine and create a single secular state. The right to return is abolished after Palestinians who have claim to Palestine return and a proper immigration policy put into place. We call it Phoenicia or something equally classical. This would actually please both sides EXCEPT for the lunatics. You would in one fell swoop eliminate the crazy wankers from the conversation because the people get what they want. Palestinians return to their homes. Israeli Jews get to stay in Israel.

    Your argument is otherwise just right wing talking points and racism.

  13. 13
    Marcus Ranum

    the comment are all about Israel bashing

    The point is: there’s a lot for anyone decent to dislike about Israel’s policies. Attempting to dismiss Israel’s land-grabs, ethnic cleansing, aggressive attacks on its neighbors, assassination, and targeting civilians as “bashing” is disgusting.

  14. 14
    Marcus Ranum

    I wrote:
    Attempting to dismiss Israel’s
    should have read:
    Attempting to dismiss discussion of Israel’s

    It’d be like trying to dismiss criticism of South Africa’s (former) racist policies as “bashing” – uh, no, that’s not “bashing” that’s “legitimate criticism”

  15. 15
    Marcus Ranum

    There are two solutions to the Middle East Peace Process

    It seems to me that the situation has progressed past that. In Vietnam, the North didn’t make any sincere efforts to achieve a negotiated solution with the colonial powers (variously France and the US) because they realized that they didn’t have to. It was just a matter of time before the South collapsed, given constant nudging. Ho Chi Minh was also in a position where he could ratchet up the response as necessary, or back off as necessary, forcing the colonists to always be on their toes and hugely draining their economy.

    One of the nasty side-effects of colonialism is for the colonial powers to think that the colonized are dumbasses who have no idea what they are doing. That kind of arrogance is a strategic weakness that is a serious danger.

  16. 16
    chrislawson

    I don’t enjoy saying this, Avicenna, but this is straight up anti-Israel bullshit. I’m particularly saddened by this because I agree completely with your stance that Israel should be condemned for pulling out of the UN Human Rights review, that Netanyahu is an aggressive militarist monster, and that the settlements and many other actions of Israel are human rights abuses. I also agree that anyone claiming Israel is the only Middle East democracy is stupidly ignoring Lebanon and Turkey, as well as proto-democratic “hybrid regime” states like Palestine, Mauritania, and Egypt. (Well, I *hope* they’re proto-.)

    But…the reason Israel wants to pull out of the UN’s human rights system is that the UNHRC has for the last 2 decades had an extraordinary anti-Israel bias, with something in the order of 40% of *all* condemnations being directed against Israel. In 2006-7, the UNHRC issued 22 condemnations of Israel and only 1 against Liberia, 1 against the Dem. Rep. Congo, NONE against Sierra Leone (just a note saying how well they were doing compared to last year), 2 on the Cote d’Ivoire (neither of which actually name any groups committing atrocities, just some general hand-wringing), and not a single condemnation of Sudan in the middle of the Darfur genocide (in the same year that Israel took in 17,000 Sudanese refugees and gave citizenship to hundreds of them). In some of the more appalling UN investigations, the investigators have been deliberately hobbled by their terms of reference to *only* investigate Israel and not other agents in a crisis — a limitation that some of the investigators themselves have bemoained in their reports. Lest you think this is just me spinning pro-Israeli propaganda, it is worth pointing out that Kofi Annan, Ban-Ki Moon, and even the President of the UNHRC itself Doru Costea have criticised the UNHRC’s anti-Israel bias.

    Now at this point I would just say that you’ve been a little ahistorical by pretending it’s just Israel pitching a hissy fit, partly because I agree that even with the UNHRC bias it’s important for states to subject themselves to the review and to acknowledge those times when they have acted badly and to work to prevent future atrocities. Every state in the world has its own record of shameful acts, and it’s crucial that there not be a role model of states just opting out of the system when they don’t like it.

    However, when you say “Palestinian Democracy is generally ruined because Israel doesn’t let them vote for who they want”, then you are ignoring the fact that the biggest contribution to destabilisation of Palestinian government has been the open war between Hamas and Fatah.

    And when you say, “Why should they recognise the right to exist. Israel doesn’t recognise theirs”, you show that you know nothing about the Oslo Accord, in which Israel was to recognise Palestine and the PLO was to recognise Israel and it was the PLO that pulled out when Arafat decided he wouldn’t be able to hold his militant wing in check.

    And finally, when you say “How are they any different from the Khmer Rouge who killed any people who dared to threaten their existence”, all I can say is: what the fuck is wrong with you, you arsehole?

  17. 17
    Avicenna

    I have lost family to the Khmer Rouge.
    I also lost a friend to the DRC conflict (aid worker who got stabbed by a hungry mob)

    The Oslo Accords failed because of three different events.

    1. The massacre of the Cave of Patriarchs which caused the resurgence of violence and the ensuing response from Israel ended up killing a further 18 people to the 29 killed by Baruch Goldstein. This caused great mistrust in the Oslo Accords. In addition the veneration of Goldstein (seriously???) pissed off a lot of Palestinians. It pissed off a lot of Israelis but to be fair none of them had died in the attack so arguably Palestinians were allowed to be a lot more angry. In fact prior to the dismantling of his memorial it had read that he “gave his life for the people of Israel, its Torah and land”.

    2. The death of Yizthak Rabin and the election of Benjamin allowed the resurgence of illegal settlements. The ones you know that had to be destroyed as part of the settlement rather than expanded. Remember the settlements were being expanded as LATE as 2003 (the Death of Rachel Corrie at one).

    3. The election of Ariel Sharon meant a lot of Palestinians who see him (quite rightly since the Kahan inquiry agrees) as the architect of Sabra and Shatilla ruined a lot of faith in Israel as Palestinians loathed to deal with a man responsible for an act of genocide who GOT AWAY WITH IT.

    Oh and the UN has intervened in the conflicts you mentioned with some success. You may not see it openly but the UN does some pretty good work out there. The Darfur refugee camps would have been a lot lot lot worse if not for the UN intervention.

    Oh and the UN mandate specifically states no intervention in internal conflict beyond humanitarian. The Darfur Mandate was especially mishandled due to a lack of manpower, skilled troopers and money but in general most people have little knowledge of such work outside of movies.

  18. 18
    dravid

    Thank you chrislawson, the original article, lost in a sea of emotion, was why did Israel pull out of the UN Review of Human Rights Practices. You give a very good reasoned response. QED

    Avicenna, do your research and in future respond to the subject of the article or argument, it does not add to sensible debate to go off at a tangent of hyper-emotion, half truths and bias.

    There are atrocities going on in the world of unbelievable proportions and the UNHRC by focusing all its energy on Israel is empowering regimes who are committing these despicable acts of violence.

    I will refrain from using an Ad hominem.

  19. 19
    Avicenna

    1. The argument of “there are greater atrocities out there” doesn’t mean we should ignore one of our own creation. That’s moronic because it’s like arguing against soup kitchens in the USA because “American Poverty” isn’t on the same scale as “Indian Poverty”.

    2. Do you agree that the formation of Israel was a horrendous breach of common sense and a terribly bad plan because it gifted a group of people a piece of land at the cost of another group of people for no reason apart from western guilt? That western society at the time gave absolutely no fucks about the Palestinians because they were arabs and muslims.

    3. Do you agree that considering historical anger from groups such as Native Americans, Indians, Aborigines and Black people who were all treated in similar ways that if their anger was righteous then perhaps the Palestinian one is just as valid?

    4. Do you agree that instances such as Sabra and Shatilla are gross violations of human rights considering it was the mass rape and murder of Palestinians and that the international community protecting the perpetrators from justice may perhaps have caused Palestinians to not accept things that we say because we are untrustworthy.

    5. Would you accept this kind of treatment? Where your land is taken from you because of what some person’s superstition says? Where you are forced to live in fences and in refugee camps? Where your livelihood is taken away and given to some invader who is then given massive grants while you are given starvation rations…

    6. And what little land you have KEEPS getting taken away.

    You have to realise how stupid the argument to ignore Palestine is because we have gotten into this terrifyingly stupid mess because we ignored them for so long in the FIRST place. If we had an ounce of brains we would have said “No, we cannot give you a piece of land based on what your religious text says. And we cannot give you a piece of land just because your ancestors lived there 2000 years ago. We will however treat you better”. Not “Fuck Muslims, Here is Their Land”.

    For Fuck’s Sake there was an International Warrant out on people involved in various genocides in Africa and Europe while Ariel Sharon has effectively escaped justice. And you want us to KEEP ignoring their demands in the hope that they will get bored and stop being angry?

  20. 20
    bradleybetts

    @Dravid #5

    The worst offenders of Human Rights use the UN to attack Israel (wait for it), on human rights.

    Specifics needed. Citation needed.

    They are the only Democracy in the area.

    False. Do some research.

    Critical Thinking is a two way street, you put shit on religious people (as I do) because they don’t consider the evidence but make the same mistake with politics.

    What exactly do you mean by this? Saying “Israel is behaving shit” when they blatantly are behaving shit isn’t thinking critically? Whereas blindly assuming that Israel is in the right is, I suppose?

    In a democracy you have a right to believe or not believe, want to be an atheist in Israel, no problem. Cross any of Israel’s borders and atheism will get you killed.

    Your point being what, exactly? Because you have the legal right to be an Atheist in Israel (and because you have the legal right does not mean that that right is honoured) but not in most of its neighbouring countries, refusing to submit to a routine Human Rights review because they know full well that their treatment of Palastinians is downright unethical is somehow OK?

  21. 21
    dravid

    Thanks for your input bradleybetts, I wasn’t going to continue the discussion however you have responded directly to me, so here goes.
    1. This is a discussion not a scientific paper and I didn’t want to spend too much time on this.
    2. I live in a Democracy with a Capital D (Australia). Israel is one of those. Not perfect and its birth is subject to debate with a resolution that will probably never be resolved without untold bloodshed.
    3. Turkey is a democracy however I should have spelt out that I meant Arab countries. We could have a huge discussion about what democracy means and I hope that Egypt, Iraq, Syria and the Lebanon reach real democracy and peace.
    4. Real democracy by my definition must include “separation of church and state”. When do you suppose that will happen?
    5. I think it best to provide my bias. I am of Jewish descent, this is my context and perspective. I understand the history from both sides. Both have blood on their hands and I don’t care to debate who is right and who is wrong. What we have is reality, Israel exists and it’s not going away without a fight and all the debate about the past and finger pointing is not going to change a thing.
    6. My point right from the start was not to get into a debate about Israel it was to point out why they were not co-operating with the UN. However some in this discussion have used this forum to Israel bash, go ahead, if it helps your rage feel free it won’t do any harm because it’s only words. Just wipe your chin.
    7. Regarding Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. My opinion, Palestinians and Arabs could have solved this many years ago however they chose to remain as refugees for the past 65 years.

    My recent ancestors decided to leave shithole countries (at the time) like Latvia, Lithuania, Germany and The Ukraine. If they had stayed the Germans, Latvians and Romanians would have murdered my direct line and I would not exist Many relatives were murdered, I have their names and in many cases how they died. My relatives moved to Australia and the USA and have prospered. Doctors, Lawyers, Dentists, Pharmacists, Finance, engineers and Business, they got on with their lives and forgot the past, prospered and contributed greatly to their adopted countries. There in lies the difference, sympathy for the Palestinians, yes, respect NONE.

    These are my last words on this matter.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>