I Get Mail – Dear Herman


This one’s from someone called Herman Cummings (or someone writing on his behalf)

Our public schools have been teaching Atheism, and the Atheists want to keep it that way, using the pretext of “separation of church and state”. What about separating Atheism and the state? How many students first come to class with a belief in a Deity, then after science class indoctrination, come away with changed beliefs? Ever heard of the “Lemon Test”? Why isn’t it being applied?

I assume you are American…

Our public schools are NOT teaching atheism. They are teaching science. The statements they make are demonstrable by a variety of experiments and observations and their claims hold up to rigorous scientific testing.

The Lemon Test applies to religion. Science isn’t religion. Religion is based on faith which is not tested empirically where as science tests everything. Your actual complaint is not about science, but about questions.

The problem is if you teach children a literal Bible then the world simply doesn’t agree with it. If your religious text claims the Sun revolves around the Earth you are going to lose in a fight to the people who prove things empirically. The Bible does not produce any technological advances, you can read it cover to cover and the only thing you are going to be able to do is quote the Bible. Science has cured more lepers than Jesus and doesn’t claim it is a miracle. Everything science produces works on testable and understandable concepts. It’s just that you REFUSE to accept one part of science (Biology). It’s the science that I use to kill major diseases. Remind me again how many people prayer claims to have cured. Then remind me again what happens when people don’t see a doctor but pray instead.

In biology class, students are currently taught Atheism, which is a religion of denial of a Creator.  Why is it that educators have no problem with brainwashing students with such an ideology, which is highly incredulous, but find excuses to avoid teaching that which is more probable?   Since when is teaching only one explanation of events desirable, when common sense dictates that another explanation is closer to the truth?   Since when is a testimony full of “conditions just right”, and “random luck”, a basis for a restricted curriculum? 

No, the students are taught that they evolved to be humans and were not created as is. We also didn’t descend from Adam and Eve and Noah and are a lot older as a species than the Bible claims we are.

There is no evidence for any god lest of all your own (I am assuming Jehovah). If so? Demonstrate empirical proof and I will be the first person to admit that I was wrong. There is ABSOLUTELY no demonstrable proof of any gods. Keep your gods in your Churches and we will keep our science out of them.

1. It is not more probable to have a god. To invoke god you would have to make a series of assumptions that are not only individually unprovable and indeed massive assumptions but each assumption would have to be based a previously faulty assumption. A god exists solely due to such towers assumptions. Science lies on two assumptions. Everything is natural and our sense provide a relatively good idea of what’s going on around us. There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence for the existence of ANY god let alone the Abrahamic one.

2. There is a subtle Irony that you want us to teach the controversy but refuse to teach Hinduism on a fair and equal balance in your Church. Until you can demonstrate any sizeable empirical evidence for the existence of your god beyond “Bible Says So” we are afraid that your faith should go sit in the corner with Islam and Hinduism. At least they have the decency (in our western world at least) to not try and fob off their blatant stupidity on the rest of the people.

3. You demonstrate a terrifyingly bad grasp of evolution. You my friend are the reason we don’t teach “Jesus” in Biology. Everything you just said about Evolution is WRONG.

The same class that teaches that “there is no Creator” must also teach the opposing view, else the school system is taking sides, causing an imbalance in education.   Are the public schools suppose to be recruiting grounds for Atheist converts?  That is what our schools have been doing, and the Atheists want to keep it that way, using the pretext of “separation of church and state”.  What about separating Atheism and the state?   How many students first come to class with a belief in a Deity, then after science class indoctrination, come away with changed beliefs?   Ever heard of the “Lemon Test”?   Why isn’t it being applied? 

I am sure that we will gladly teach the opposing view if you can provide empirical evidence that the god that exists is Jehovah and not that Phoney Baloney Brahma Fellow.

Or even prove that a god exists.

I don’t think you want a separation of Church and State, I think you want a separation of SCIENCE and State.

The Lemon Test doesn’t apply to science because science is proven empirically to exist while religion exists purely in the hearts and minds of those who believe in it. People come away from Science with changed beliefs because Science challenges you to QUESTION things. And if you question “god” sufficiently you start realising that he is a form of superstition.

The truth of history has nothing to do with religion. The book of Genesis explains the 4.6 billion year history of our Earth, and why the fossil and geologic records are found as they are.  The worlds of Creationism and Theology have no idea what Genesis chapter one is conveying to mankind.  Their foolish and false representations are mainly the reason mankind has not known the truth of our origins.  The remaining reason is that too many people have been too stubborn to examine the truth, before jumping to their biased conclusions.  

Yes… What is it? Jehovah fooled us all? Sin? Satan’s running around changing all the fossils?

The truth is that humanity is a lot more remarkable than your silly beliefs and you demand we stop being awesome so that your god looks better in comparison to us.

You would probably demand I stop handing out Dapsone to leprosy cases because I make Jesus look impotent.

Of the ones that have seen the Observations of Moses, the “young earth” believers provide the most resistance, because they have been brainwashed by doctrines of denial (such as “no death before Adam”), which Genesis does not support.   Most that see the presentation come away in awe, and wonder why they had not heard of it before.   They question why only now is this (literal) view of Genesis being revealed, and why only one person has been promoting it.

Because you are coming to your own conclusions about the Bible. This is like watching two blind men argue over whether the Elephant in the room is a Cyclops.  

I teach a 6-hr class for science teachers, to help them answer questions that students would ask concerning the fossil record and geologic time as defined by Genesis.  When you teach both sides of the coin, you have balance, and are not “taking sides”.   Public education is suppose to be neutral, and is not to promote any religion (theism or anti-theism), using public funds.   Promoting Atheism in the public school system is evil, and is unconstitutional.   Just look at the results such teachings have done to our society, where our children have a low value of human life.   If there is no Creator, then there is no final Judgment: this is the message now being taught in public schools.

That you can boil down your entire world view into a 6 hour class for SCIENCE teachers is not just amusing, it is terrifying. It is a damning indictment that American Science is Fucked and requires a rigorous input of actual science at all levels of education. My generation grew up with the Magic School Bus and Bill Nye (our American Imports) alongside things like Blue Peter and the various BBC science shows.

The current generation is simply lacking in a show that encourages simple scientific endeavour and I am afraid the people who win in arguments like this are people like Herman Cummings.

The 62 minute presentation first proves that current creationism is wrong, both “young Earth” and all forms of “old Earth” theories.   Secondly, it then disproves the Big Bang theory, by revealing withheld facts of our solar system, which the world of science doesn’t want the world to know.   Thirdly, the presentation then explains the jumps in the fossil record, from 245 million years ago, to that of modern times.  (In case you are wondering, the flood of Noah, which occurred in 2611 BC, has nothing to do with it).   Geologic events is what the seven days of Moses are teaching, because Creation Week is not found in Genesis, as has been mistakenly taught by those in ignorance of the text.    

Your argument is “Creationism is Wrong” because “My Creationism is Right”!

Secondly, the Big Bang Theory is widely considered fact due to the sheer amount of evidence for it.

Thirdly, everything you have said here is just so vague and incomprehensive that it doesn’t really mean anything.

I highly encourage each and every state to have this presentation shown to your legislative body, so that they will see the truth of pre-historic history.  They must first see what the truth is, so that they can then make an educated decision on how to implement this into the education system.  This is not something that would be taught by the Clergy or schools of Theology, because they are mired in false doctrines.   

This is just an excuse to insert more Jesus into Children when they require more science.

Comments

  1. Alverant says

    Again we see the false dictonomy of either evolution or christianity. I wonder how he’d feel if someone insisted on teaching buddhism in place of creationism as an “alternative” to evolution.

  2. CGM3 says

    …it then disproves the Big Bang theory, by revealing withheld facts of our solar system, which the world of science doesn’t want the world to know.”

    I notice he doesn’t bother to elaborate on those “withheld facts”; guess we’re supposed to take them on faith.

  3. slc1 says

    Since the Solar System came into being some 9 billion years after the big bang, I fail to see the relevance of “withheld facts of our solar system”.

  4. says

    Herman Cummings (assuming this is the same guy I’ve run into before–sounds like him anyway) is “the foremost terrestrial authority on the book of Genesis”, according to his own statement, to which he adds “Until you can disprove that claim, accept it as fact.” He is the author of a self-published book Moses Didn’t Write About Creation! in which he argues the old idea that the days of Genesis 1 were the days on which Moses saw a vision supplied by God about earlier times; each day was taken from the beginning of a different geological era. To make things more interesting, the geological eras are not given in order. He has some curious notions about science. “How can we possibly know what the make-up of a star is?” he asks in his book. “Have we sent a probe into the center of our Sun? … If pretending to know the composition of planets, stars, and comets isn’t bad enough, many scientists also claim to know the ages of celestial objects. This is what I mean by ‘crossing the line’. … We can examine the Earth, since we live on it. We have examined material brought back from the Moon, in such wise as we have visited it on several occasions. I accept the findings of the geologist that the Earth and Moon are close to 4.6 billion Earth years old.” I gather from this that spectroscopy is unknown to him. He defines a scientific theory as “a guess about the unknown, using scientific jargon”. I don’t remember what his “withheld facts” are; they’re in the book somewhere, though.

  5. says

    As for the age of the solar system, Cummings wonders about that as well. “If our universe (and galaxy) is 15 to 17 billion Earth years old, why is our Sun and solar system only 5 (or 4.6) billion years old? Also, what was happening during those missing 10 billion years??”

  6. glodson says

    No, the students are taught that they evolved to be humans and were not created as is. We also didn’t descend from Adam and Eve and Noah and are a lot older as a species than the Bible claims we are.

    I got some seriously bad news. At least for people living in my country. I suppose it might count for bad news for people living in other country has we have a tendency to elect real morons to high seats of power who have the backing of one of the most, if not the most, powerful military forces in the world.

    We aren’t even teaching our students this. The creationism and religious elements in this country have hobbled the teaching of Evolution to such a point that the vast majority of students here don’t understand the fundamentals of Evolution. “The real conclusion of the research is that a full 72 percent of American children are not being taught evolution in a forthright fashion as a scientific theory. We’re not talking about a 13 percent minority of extremists, but rather about the majority that display a fundamental ineptitude.” Source.

    People like Herman here are winning this fight, not legally. But with this culture of ignorance around a basic science, it bleeds over into ignorance as to what science even is. People here think they know, but they don’t. In my own experience, I only learned of Evolution by my own readings. My teacher in high school refused to teach the subject. I know I’m not alone in this experience. She had about 5 classes a day. Probably around 25 students per class. Biology teacher, for who knows how many years. That’s a great deal of people not taught anything about Evolution. We aren’t even talking about people who teach it poorly due to their own lack of understanding, or people who teach it badly on purpose, and my experience of no teaching at all.

    I cannot tell you how many times I have had conversation about Evolution where I had to go and actually discuss what Evolution actually was before I explained why the person I was talking to was wrong. This is the current state of science education here. Ignorance is spreading because we lack the people to actually teach it, and worse, they are going into a hostile environment where teaching Evolution is made difficult by ignorant school board members, and ignorant meddlers in education.

  7. says

    Okay, it’s been forty years since I had high school biology, but my experience back then was much the same as glodson’s. Our required biology class used a textbook that didn’t include the word evolution. The concept was buried in the book, and the authors used a phrase like developmental hypothesis instead–but that didn’t matter, since our teacher silently skipped over those sections of the book, including one entire chapter. I don’t know why our teacher chose to do that–whether from policy, conviction, or fear–but that’s a lot of students who weren’t taught anything about evolution back then.

  8. says

    Secondly, it then disproves the Big Bang theory, by revealing withheld facts of our solar system, which the world of science doesn’t want the world to know.

    Ah yes, conspiracy theories, the last refuge of the crackpot.

  9. says

    Secondly, it then disproves the Big Bang theory, by revealing withheld facts of our solar system, which the world of science doesn’t want the world to know.

    I don’t know about everyone else, but as a future astrophysicist, I’d love to know what he’s claiming these “withheld facts” are.

  10. glodson says

    @ 7 My own experience was in the mid-nineties, so that was just 20 years ago.

    The stats appear to say this problem is on-going. As someone looking forward to a new career teaching in the next couple of years, this is a problem I will face head on. There is a disturbing trend for those who decry the desire to teach the facts of science(and history) as indoctrinating the children to turn around and indoctrinate children when they can.

    I grew up in the shadow of Bob Jones University, which also runs a private school. If you never heard of them, here’s the books they produce. Not to mention their homeschool books.

    This is the environment that produces some of our more… eccentric creationists. I know this is a bit of conjecture, but I believe this willful misunderstanding of Evolution leads to a misunderstanding science. There is an unhealthy misapprehension that rationalizing is the same as being rational.

  11. says

    Well said, Avicenna. However, I disagree with this bit: “Science lies on two assumptions. Everything is natural and our senses provide a relatively good idea of what’s going on around us. ”

    The first part is fine, but the second is iffy. A lot of science works only by our recognizing and correcting for the limits and biases of our senses. Can’t see the bacteria? Build a microscope. Can’t see how a hummingbird flaps its wings? Build a high-speed camera and slow down the playback. Can’t see the planet that is tugging Uranus around? Build a telescope and do a bunch of math so that you know where to point it. See a face in a picture of Mars? Check that it isn’t an image-processing error superimposed onto the ridge line of a hill. And so on.

    I would have said something like “we can understand what’s going on by careful observation and analysis” instead.

    @sbh:

    This crackpot also apparently doesn’t understand the most fundamental clock: a beam of light. We see light that has traveled 13.77 billion lightyears (give or take ~0.06 billion), so the universe must be at least 13.77 billion years old. It happens to only be a few hundred thousand years older than that, although understanding that does require knowing a little bit about cosmological physics so perhaps it can be pardoned. But it bothers me that even after a hundred years, people don’t understand something as basic as “the speed of light in a vacuum is constant”.

    @shockna:

    The “There’s a conspiracy of scientists!” line is one of my main ways of screening for crackpottery. It requires an impressive lack of knowledge or level of self-deception to miss that most important characteristic of scientists: we love to prove each other wrong.

    Although in this case, as Avicenna has shown, the crackpottery was already blatantly obvious before he pulled that line.

  12. Lou Jost says

    Nice post, but I too would like to criticize the sentence mentioned by michaelbusch in Comment 11. Michael criticized the second half and thought the first half was fine. I am afraid the first half is also misleading. Science does not ASSUME “everything is natural”. Statements to that effect feed religious zealots who claim that we scientists ignore the supernatural by definition or assumption. In fact, science is open to anything, including miracles, if there were evidence for them. Science has not found evidence of the supernatural; the hypothesis that all is natural has been highly successful, and the hypothesis that there is a supernatural element to reality has been completely unsuccessful. So science comes to naturalism the same way it comes to anything else: by evaluating evidence, not by assumption.

  13. says

    I don’t advocate either way on this issue but I would have to say that if you separate the church and the state then you should also separate the absence of church from the state. It will never truly happen but education should not be biased one way or the other. It should be up to the parents to impart their life’s wisdom on the children and the children should be free to grow up and choose their own path. In theory they can do this but all the propaganda thrown at children doesn’t truly allow it. Children are targets for just about every agenda imaginable.

  14. says

    Lou – If there was evidence for the supernatural it would stop being supernatural… And by “Our Senses Give us a Roughly Accurate Picture” I mean “we can maneuver throughout the world and trust our senses”. AKA We aren’t in a simulation or being exposed to magic.

    American Punjaban – The education isn’t biased. In the USA the teaching of science is widely considered to range from indifferent to appalling.

    If you separate Religion from state then you cannot separate secular thought from state. And Science unfortunately has a science bias because science keeps doing things while Religion has no such method of proving it’s veracity. Hence it’s banned from “science” in any sane world. These are not opposite theories.

    It is NOT upto parents to decide what is and what isn’t science. If you believe in something patently stupid about science it is the duty of education to stamp it out. If you believe the Sun revolves around the Earth it is the duty of science to teach you and your kids otherwise or else you will actively make your kid stupid. Kids aren’t smart, that’s why we send them to school to get knowledge.

    The bias here is reality. Evolution is widely considered fact. It’s like gravity.

  15. Lou Jost says

    Avicenna, when you say “If there was evidence for the supernatural it would stop being supernatural”, I think you are basically agreeing with me that science assumes nothing with respect to naturalism. It is just about evidence, not about assumptions. There could be evidence for a powerful personal god which answered people’s prayers, etc. If there were evidence for it, science would make and test hypotheses about it.

  16. says

    My brother in law, when he was alive, used to be astonished by me. He knew I was an atheist, knew I didn’t believe in the alt medicine and faith healing that he followed (and which killed him), but one day he finally exclaimed about me in exasperation – “He doesn’t even believe in ANYTHING!”

    It’s not that they have examined science or evolutionary theory and determined that it is religion – it’s just that these things MUST be religions because they simply cannot comprehend living without some sort of faith belief. They don’t see it as humanly possible.

    So what you do MUST be a religion by default, even if they don’t know how or understand it.
    It just HAS to be – because NOBODY can just go around believing in nothing!*

    *believing in nothing is how they put it, not how I would put it.

  17. says

    You know what science is?
    Trial and error. Try something, see what happens. Try it again, see what happens. Fred Flintstone tries it, sees what happens. Betty Rubble, same. Compare notes. Same results all around, even when way over there.
    Seems like it’s the same everywhere we try it, prolly same everywhere.

    Nice berries, let’s eat. There goes grandma. Really hungry, etc. = no matter can die no eat, eat berry, die every time.

    2 year old infant. Try this try that, I can walk! Lets run. Fun! Look at them back there laughi-BAM. Table leg, Run more, don’t hit table leg. The big person is watching, Run, look back, splat 2 YEAR OLD STOPS LOOKING BACKWARD WHEN RUNNING. That is trial and error, repeat trial, big error!
    Blah blah try stuff, see what happens. Start testing the old man, get a react. seems to work most times, not all? Better see what’s different.

    Christian, herman. Same shit growing up. Date, new food on date, Italian. Alright, that shit is good, New date(never has more than two in a row WTF? Try being polite, flowers… Three in a row!) new food, Like, no like, only one way to find out – try it and see what happens = scientific process.
    Every Christian uses it, every day, exclusively. That’s how things work, that’s how you know what’s gonna happen next time, ya fu..nny guy!
    Wait! Trial and error works every time, it’s the absolute only way we work, the reality works, reliable, so reliable that you’d still be wrapped around a table leg when you’re fifty if you decided to make all your decisions, get all your answers, through prayer, BECAUSE YOU DON’T ‘BELIEVE IN SCIENCE!

    That is what I try to get through certain ‘difficult’ folks heads. What science is at it’s most basic, that even a two year old knows how it works, and even Jim and Tammy Baker, Popff, Robertson, use it every fricken minute of every day of their lives. Its how reality works, its how we think, and learn, it’s how every thing, everywhere works. It’s how evolution works. Trial and error.

    It’s not atheism, it’s demonology, it’s fucking reality being taught, by people that have done more, and more varied, trial and error tests of reality. That’s what school is, learning about what other people have discovered, and about how they think, because, look at how many discoveries they make! How to make auto cars, how to cure illnesses, etc.

    So, if Herman there doesn’t ‘believe’ in science, then prove it, or Shut The Front Door! Stop using any, and all, results produced through science. You don’t believe in it anyways, so put your money where your mouth is, ya hypocrite. Don’t drive cars, you ain’t coming in any hospitals, you aint using any central heating, cooling, cooking with anything, not even campfire, anything round – FUCK OFF IF YOU DON”T BELIEVE IN SCIENCE.
    Quit using it, and any results that come from it

    Ask god what you should do next, cause you can’t even use trial and error to figure out how not to play in traffic.
    Nothing, nothing in reality can you partake of, because you don’t believe in science, and therefore, you don’t believe in reality. The only way to know anything about anything is to try shit, and see what happens. But you don’t believe in that, so fucking prove it. Don’t send mail, don’t look at monitors, use computers, use the toilet, because you don’t believe in them. So Why The Eff are you using them?

    You go make your own schools, which you can’t even do now, anyways. But we’ll give amnesty for a bit, build your schools, and keep every bit of science, and technology, out of your teachings.
    You wanted it, you got it, now deal with it on your own, using only stuff that has nothing to do with science, and therefore, reality.

    That’s what we have to demonstrate, science, on the most banal and seemingly inconsequential level, avoiding table legs.

    If science is just a religion, then don’t practice it you stunned pile of table leg mush.
    Prove it, prove it, prove the veracity of your beliefs, and disbeliefs. Quitcher bitchin*, and just do it. We’re not making you believe in science against your will, and we demand that you respect that by not forcing your beliefs on us.

    Sleep deprivation, sorry. plus if I hadn’t started off behaving like such a goof, sorry everyone. Okay,

    sbh
    Herman Cummings (assuming this is the same guy I’ve run into before–sounds like him anyway) is “the foremost terrestrial authority on the book of Genesis”, according to his own statement, to which he adds “Until you can disprove that claim, accept it as fact.”
    What is this guy, the next attorney general?

    Avicenna
    And by “Our Senses Give us a Roughly Accurate Picture” I mean “we can maneuver throughout the world and trust our senses”. AKA We aren’t in a simulation or being exposed to magic..

    I love you, man. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get anyone to understand this in free will debates? Apparently, we are just responding, clumsily and with purely lucky guessing, because our senses are so inadequate that they only provide the nearest hint of what;s really going on around us. It’s all so much illusion, because our senses are subjective, I readily agree, but to know anything about objective reality, you have to precisely measure it, and compare notes.

    Never mind the fact that we can discern the difference between 500nm wavelengths of light, and 540, or maybe less still. We can accuratly measure how fast, and how close, dozens of traveling cars are, basically, their momentum, which is a vector, to within a few feet.
    Like you, I understand that we have a very adequate grip on the location of everything around us.

    I am just so happy to see someone, you, that knows this.
    Whew, Thank god that I don’t believe in Him!

  18. bradleybetts says

    The 62 minute presentation first proves that current creationism is wrong, both “young Earth” and all forms of “old Earth” theories. Secondly, it then disproves the Big Bang theory, by revealing withheld facts of our solar system, which the world of science doesn’t want the world to know. Thirdly, the presentation then explains the jumps in the fossil record, from 245 million years ago, to that of modern times. (In case you are wondering, the flood of Noah, which occurred in 2611 BC, has nothing to do with it). Geologic events is what the seven days of Moses are teaching, because Creation Week is not found in Genesis, as has been mistakenly taught by those in ignorance of the text.

    So this guy doesn’t ally himself to the Creationist camp, and he’s not an evolutionist… he’s a conspiracy nut. He thinks both science and religion are wrong and are lying to him, and that he happens to know the truth where everyone else does not.

    Also, anyone who uses the phrase “pre-historic history” is quite clearly an idiot.

  19. says

    >>“we can maneuver throughout the world and trust our senses”. AKA We aren’t in a simulation or being exposed to magic.<<

    Those two aren't quite the same thing, but your point is well-taken. I merely wanted to make it clear that while they are very good for many things (like keeping us alive), human senses are both limited and significantly fallible. Some of the fallible is a feature, not a bug: pareidolia gives a survival advantage, when it isn't making people see faces on Mars or in char marks on toast. We just need to be aware of the peculiarities of our nervous systems, so that we can allow for them.

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