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Jan 21 2013

You are Judged by the Company You Keep

If you quote KKK quotes and hang out with a racist, we would assume you are a racist. Okay, the racist may be “family” but you know that you should speak out against it. You may even argue about it. You may even stop being friendly because you personally don’t think the Dutch are subhuman but your hypothetical sister does.

Because you are judged by the company you keep and by not speaking out. You may disagree with something but have to keep your mouth shut, but that just means you are supporting the thing you disagree with in the first place. If a child INSISTS on sticking his fingers into a electrical socket disagreeing with him but not telling him to stop is pretty much agreeing with him is it not?

You are always judged by the company you keep and I have slowly come to notice that the company that many naysayers against Free Thought Blogs and the like are not acceptable. The argument one individual from the slymepit made was “free speech”, well we have free speech here.

Watch this. I think Atheism Plus is heavily mishandled and it’s pure utilisation of safe zones makes debate and discourse impossible. In addition it takes a very very protectionist attitude to both culture and a purely western attitude towards feminism which is simply not universal or applicable in every situation. However due to the lack of any actual method of discourse there is no way to create active change through it. It is unfortunately a pure academic form of feminism and is unsuitable for punching out gender discrepancies in third world nations. It’s participants have little actual experience in field work and from experience are unwilling to defer to anyone who is outside the sphere of their security nor were they willing to grasp that principles are great if you can afford to have them. I have even spoken out explicitly against their cultural/race aspect of their movement because a lot of it tries to paint culture with a big fuck off brush rather than realising individual nuance.

Oh look! It’s a stance I have stated before I moved here. At no point was I ever hassled by the “FTBullies”. In fact my interviewer was Stephanie Zvan and when I specifically mentioned my apprehension with Atheism Plus we discussed precisely the above statement.

Oh look it’s genuine criticism of the movement. I have also disagreed with people like Taslima on Prostitution and Ian Cromwell on race. But the thing is through it all we have been specific about what we dislike about the other’s work. We haven’t stooped to personal attacks (Although I did offer to have a “shout racial slurs at each other till we both lose” contest with Ian),

I am not part of A+, but neither am I in the camp of the Slymepit because of the company they keep.

Stephanie Zvan survived sexual assault. But she was drunk. Oh noes! The Slut! When a Man is Drunk and Gets Laid He Taketh Responsibility! Right boys?

Many Slymepitters are represented at AVfM. Reap and Wooly Bumblebee and Astrokid who you may remember from my take on their work.

But because of free speech they get to say what they like. Free speech is fine, in fact that’s why I am examining a more flexible comment policy because I think I can do better (Hah! Suck it popular bloggers! My comments threads may be relatively empty but they will be elegant!) to give everyone the best of both worlds.

HOWEVER… The usage of this particular article by Wooly Bumblebee has crossed a line. In particular because THIS is precisely the same arguments people made when the young woman who was raped in Delhi. It was also made by AVfM. AVfM supports Indian MRAs who have blamed the rapes in India on women rather than the men.

“Coyote ugly.” It’s a phrase men use to describe the experience of waking up, hungover as shit, in bed next to a girl so ugly you’d rather chew your arm off than have her stir. Yep, another night of too many shooters and very poor judgement. Well played, tequila.

It must be Tequila’s fault!

Understand the difference between action and consent. You cannot give consent when you are drunk. You can barely order pizza yet are assuming you can give realistic consent? Yes both of you may be drunk but if both of you are drunk and want to have sex then both of you will have sex. What people who get drunk and are raped are discussing are women getting date raped through drugs like GHB or just plain old not being sober enough to put up a coordinated defence against a much stronger assailant.

You are however responsible for your actions when drunk. It’s just that simple.

I’m willing to bet that every single varsity athlete or high status (medicine, engineering, computer science) male on any given college campus has had the experience. Why? Because they get hunted. All the time. By women. You see these guys staggering bleary-eyed into the dorm rooms the next morning, bro-punching their friends and saying “Dude, how could you let me do that?”

Because women are all hungry like the wolf?

You want to know something funny? At no point has anyone ever thrown themselves at me because of my degrees. It’s always been because of my winning personality and sense of humour. I used to get women to sleep with me through the art of conversation, wit and being honest about things. It’s never been about me or my degree or my athletic skill. It’s always been because I am genuinely nice. Now I have noticed women who do sleep with these guys and if that brings them happiness then godspeed ladies, but more often than not it’s because they buy into the stupid Alpha male concept and forget that confidence isn’t arrogance. Real confidence is knowing what your limitations are. And we all have limitations. Real confidence isn’t denigrating other people but letting them shine too.

Whoever wrote that article is insulting to EVERY gender. No.1 Women aren’t Gold Diggers/Star Fuckers (Seriously? Doctor Hunting isn’t a thing), No. 2 that buys into the notion of Alpha Males which is just moronic as fuck because the “Alpha Stereotype” does poorly in medicine. It’s a team effort, if you hack your team off they will kill your credibility and your career. You can be an amazing doctor but you are nothing without your support. No. 3 you assume all men are dicks and cannot control their drinks nor who they fuck when drunk.

How could you let me do that is the hallmark of a man who cannot take responsibility for his actions. I am not your keeper, I will take care of you when sick but if you insist on doing things you consider distasteful then it’s your damn fault. I will try and field terrible decision fall outs but I won’t be held responsible for you insisting on doing something. Sleeping with a “ugly” person is not dangerous nor is it disgusting, it’s just you shagging someone who isn’t attractive.

The article goes on an on… Stephanie fields it much better than me. I would have sworn at people a lot more.

161 comments

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  1. 151
    A Hermit

    More data:

    http://www.secularcensus.us/analysis/2013-01-23

    The American Secular Census℠ is the independent national registry of demographic and viewpoint data recorded by Secular Americans. Census registrants are U.S. citizens or permanent residents over 18 years of age who are skeptical of supernatural claims, including those generally associated with religion….

    …Regardless of gender, all uninvolved respondents are asked: What are your reasons for not being involved in the secular movement? Check as many as apply. Women outnumber men in these responses:

    70%/30% – Bad experience with group, person, or event…

    …Regardless of gender, all respondents who are or have been involved in the secular movement are asked: Have you ever felt unwelcome, discriminated against, or harmed in the secular movement? Women outnumber men 62%/34% in responding “Yes.”…

    …Regardless of gender, all those who responded “yes” to the question above are then asked: Which of these factors contributed to this experience? Check as many as apply. Women outnumber men in these responses:

    56%/44% – Programs or positions taken by the organization itself
    72%/25% – Words, attitudes, or actions of other participants

    And women are the only respondents to select these answers:

    100%/0% – Unwanted advances by other participants
    100%/0% – Not sure – I can’t put my finger on it

    Are we ready to admit there’s a problem yet?

  2. 152
    A Hermit

    Yeah.. Yeah.. You will produce your own facts from feminist blogs/articles and some scholarly studies. I know. Hoff Sommers talked about “Feminist Advocacy research” for a reason.

    Sommers ( a fellow at the AEI…the good folks who gave us “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq O-o) is not the last word on the subject; she has her critics as well:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/books/reviews/waragainstboys0703.htm

    Examined carefully, Sommers’s case does not hold up well. She persistently misrepresents scholarly debate, ignores evidence that contradicts her assertions, and directs intense scrutiny at studies she opposes while giving a free critical ride to research she supports

    What I directed you to was not some ideologically driven polemic like Sommer’s books but to actual academic research. I’m sorry the facts are inconvenient for you, but there they are.

    Again the similarity to holocaust deniers is apt here I think; you have your “experts” whose opinions you accept uncritically because thye confirm your biases, and you ignore the much larger body of work which contradicts them.

  3. 153
    Astrokid.NJ

    @RahX:

    Just because you lost a case doesn’t mean there’s bias. You were linked to multiple sources of studies on this, and you attempted to refute that with a link to an MRA advocacy group. You really suck at this argumentation shit.

    So you are back. Arent you the one who claimed that SR rapist was all about wimmin taking precautions.. and not requiring anything of men? how come you arent talking about THAT claim anymore after I included some quotes to prove otherwise?
    FYI.. I havent lost any child support case, coz I never got into such a case in the first place. I learnt how the court systems work, and as they say “knowledge is power”.

    Re: Tender years doctrine.. I included it to tell the whole story.. how we got to default mother custody today, to indicate the feminist support for such policies.. when your side claimed that “Oh.. it was patriarchy/gender stereotyping” that causes it.

    Re: the link to MRA advocacy group.. it actually contained a link to academic research by
    CYNTHIA A. MCNEELY FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY LAW REVIEW.

    B. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court’s Gender Bias Study
    of the Court System in Massachusetts
    Although allegedly implemented “to determine the extent, nature,
    and consequences of gender bias in the judiciary and to make remedial
    recommendations to promote the fair and equal treatment of
    men and women,”106 the 1989 Gender Bias Study of the Court System
    in Massachusetts is a prime example of a results-oriented study
    ironically reeking of gender bias.107 Despite evidence demonstrating
    that mothers receive primary residential custody of children approximately
    90% of the time that custody is first determined by the
    court,108 this study offered the following remarkable conclusion to
    demonstrate that gender bias against fathers in child custody determinations
    was a myth, unworthy of further study or policy changes:
    “[F]athers who actively seek custody obtain either primary or joint
    physical custody over 70% of the time.”
    109 This conclusion is often
    cited to discredit continuing claims by fathers and fathers’ rights organizations
    of gender bias in child custody matters.110 An analysis of

    the methodology underlying this conclusion, however, demonstrates
    fundamental flaws that seem to confirm a results-oriented analysis.
    111
    First, the study s methodology in the area of child custody was entirely
    subjective; that is, it was based on interviews rather than hard
    data from court files.112 Second, the study dodged the hard questions
    of gender bias it purported to address.

    Given these back and forth between academics.. I dont know how one can conclude one way or the other, in this particular discussion.
    Finally, when your side says AND LOBBIES for “best interest of the child” (whatever ideology that stands for) rather than shared parenting.. then one wonders what EQUALITY you are fighting for.

  4. 154
    julian

    I’m sorry but fuck equality when we’re talking about the well being of a child. If either parent has been abusive or violent they should not be allowed to see their child. Rights are not absolute. They don’t allow you to impede so recklessly into the health and well being of others.

  5. 155
    Astrokid.NJ

    @Hermit:
    The statistics I claimed regarding child custody are not very different from what you found, or what Barbara Kay mentioned.
    About 90% of child custody is decided outside of the court.. but of the 10% that does go to evaluation + trial .. And note that Barbara Kay says that this isnt a small number at all.. it runs into tens of thousands in the US.. women get custody most of the time. I said 85%, Kay says 90%, the site you found says 44% women, 40% joint custody, 11% men.
    Now, there’s a difference between joint custody and shared custody. You can look it up. I found these handy..

    Joint Custody Arrangements
    When parents share joint custody, usually they work out a schedule according to their work requirements and housing arrangements and the children’s needs. If the parents cannot agree on a schedule, the court will impose an arrangement. A common pattern is for children to split weeks between each parent’s house or apartment. Other joint physical custody arrangements include:
    alternating months, years, or six-month periods, or
    spending weekends and holidays with one parent, while spending weekdays with the other.

    What does Shared Custody involve?
    In a shared custody arrangement, each parent has approximately equal periods of custody of the child.. For this type of child custody arrangement to work, each of the parties should live in close proximity to one another, in order to facilitate the child’s interactions at school and with friends.
    Shared custody seeks to arrive at a more equal distribution of time that the child spends with each parent, regardless of the duties and responsibilities that each individual parent may be responsible for. In addition, shared custody often requires a great degree of cooperation between the parents.

    What I have seen in Joint custody.. is that one parent (typically mother) gets the custody, and the other parent (typically father) gets to keep his children over the weekends.. twice a month. So I would argue that amounts to 44%+40% i.e 84% women.

    Now.. all these are just numbers and statistics… and unless one actually takes the time to see impacted people’s lives closely, one wont get an understanding of their difficulties. Statistics alone never make a convincing case.

  6. 156
    Astrokid.NJ

    @julian:
    I agree that abusive/violent parents are to be taken into account. But the default stance should be ‘shared parenting’. Does anyone believe that most parents are abusive? No.. right?
    If you look at child abuse stats

    Who Are the Perpetrators?
    Perpetrators of child abuse or neglect are most often the child’s own parents. According to NCANDS, in 2005, 79.4 percent of perpetrators were parents and 6.8 percent were other relatives.

    In 2005, there were 899,000 cases.
    Approximately 40 percent of child victims were maltreated by their mothers acting alone; another 18.3 percent were maltreated by their fathers acting alone; 17.3 percent were abused by both parents (USDHHS, 2007).

    Now.. mothers involvement in this is larger than fathers.. but I will grant that mothers spend more time with their children, and hence numbers could be greater. But the ultimate point is that there is no reason to think that fathers are bigger abusers. Thus there is no reason shared parenting should not be the norm.

  7. 157
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    So you are back.

    I didn’t go anywhere. You’re the serial flounce-flubber here.

    Arent you the one who claimed that SR rapist was all about wimmin taking precautions.. and not requiring anything of men?

    If you think I said the point of Schrodinger’s Rapist is that women should have to take precautions while expecting nothing from men, you COMPLETELY missed the point. The point of SR is to tell men this:

    Here is why women who don’t know you will not give you unrestrained trust as soon as you meet them. If you want to get to know these women better, or just don’t want to bother them, try not doing the things that send up red flags. Don’t chase them down the street, or corner them in small spaces, or repeatedly yell “HEY BABY!” at them on the subway. They can’t read your mind and can’t know if you’re just a kind stranger trying to make small talk, or if you’re trying to get in their pants, or worse, if you’re actually dangerous. Make it abundantly clear what your intentions are and that those intentions are not threatening, and as I said, doing so is not a burden on you.

    FYI.. I havent lost any child support case, coz I never got into such a case in the first place.

    Please read this. There is more than one usage of the word “you” in English.

    Re: Tender years doctrine.. I included it to tell the whole story.. how we got to default mother custody today, to indicate the feminist support for such policies.. when your side claimed that “Oh.. it was patriarchy/gender stereotyping” that causes it.

    As has already been explained to you, feminists (that’s modern feminists, not 19th century feminists which seem to be the only ones you’re aware of) don’t support gender discrimination, and that includes in family courts. Try dealing with what we’re actually saying instead of what you’ve decided we believe.

    In fact, I don’t think I can discuss anything with you further until you start talking to ME rather than talking to 19th century feminists and whackjobs. If there is gender bias in family courts, it shouldn’t exist. If men are unfairly expected to do things like die in wars, that shouldn’t exist, and in fact it no longer does in the US (and hasn’t for quite awhile in an unofficial capacity). Other than those two things, one of which you’ve already been told has been rectified through the efforts of, at least in part, feminist women who wanted to fight and not be discriminated against or have their male comrades discriminated against, you haven’t mentioned any other issues where men are facing systemic bias, and even if you did, and even if you proved that it was true, I would be against such gender discrimination because that’s what being a fucking feminist actually means, you utter bonehead.

  8. 158
    A Hermit

    Now.. all these are just numbers and statistics… and unless one actually takes the time to see impacted people’s lives closely, one wont get an understanding of their difficulties. Statistics alone never make a convincing case.

    In other words, facts be damned you’re going to stick with your biased personal opinion…But I can counter you’re anecdotes with my own contrary ones all day. And you MRA’s are the ones crying for statistical evidence of sexism all the time and rejecting women’s accounts of their own experiences as “just anecdotes” and of no value. Now, when the statistics fail to support your preconceptions you’re trying to have it the other way around.

    I think we’re done here. It’s clear you’re not prepared to critically examine your own ideology.

  9. 159
    throwaway

    WoolyBumblebutt is a liar. A fucking liar. She is revolting as a human being.

    I really don’t know if anyone remembers this little dramatic episode summer of last year. I documented it and don’t know if it did (or even should have) pinged any radars, but here: http://innocuousintent.blogspot.com/

    The rundown is WBB presented a post on her personal blog at the time as someone elses. There Was No indication it was an ‘experiment’ of any kind. After I pointed out the facsimile admin name she posted a tweet for what I assume is damage control. And then *foof* gone went the page with no explanation. The page she linked to was filled with all the MRA tropes mischaracterizing feminists.

    That is her character in a vile nutshell.

  10. 160
    andrew peltomaki

    Great, thanks ;)

  11. 161
    Napoleon Ferron

    I have been surfing online greater than 3 hours nowadays, yet I by no means found any interesting article like yours. It is beautiful price enough for me. In my opinion, if all webmasters and bloggers made excellent content as you probably did, the web can be a lot more helpful than ever before.

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