Yosemite Sam »« For Those Who Think Palestine is Free

A Proper Response to slc1 – Israel and Palestine

 

I was going to leave this as a comment, but I figured that it would do better as a post. This is in response to slc1 who wrote a comment on a report on the shooting of 17 year old whose only crime was to throw stones at a symbol of oppression.

Mr. avicenna seems to have a selective memory. He has apparently forgotten why the security fence was put up in the first place. The purpose is to prevent Palestinian terrorist homicide bombers from coming into Israeli cities and blowing up pizza parlors. And it has been quite effective in that regard as such incidents have been greatly reduced.

You have to realise one thing.

The Palestinians don’t see Israel as an entity, they seem them as invaders. These are effectively a bunch of Europeans who have displaced them from their homes.The people who lost their homes to the Israelis are still alive. West Bank isn’t “home”. Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and pretty much the entire Israel is “home”. They are a bunch of “White” people who showed up to take all their shit and then have the temerity to make the moronic claim that their ancestors used to live there. That’s like rounding up the population of New York to go live in a refugee camp because the Native Americans suffered “buyers remorse” and want their land back.

If a powerful alien race were to appear and demand that their chosen people (the native Americans) be restored to the USA and then take all the non-native americans and throw them into a refugee camp, would people in the USA fight back? What? White guys can get mad about losing their homes to space aliens but Palestinians cannot to real Israelis?

The Palestinian suicide bomber is a symptom of a problem. And that problem is that Europeans and Americans circa 1940 to 50 were “proper racist”. They gave no fucks about the Palestinians and repeatedly demonstrated how few fucks they gave about them by repeatedly backing some very dubious Israel stunts. When Israel pulled off a “first strike” it was called a pre-emptive strike and tactical genius. When Saddam did it, it was mindless aggression of a monster.

You think Israel has a right to exist. I think that the formation of Israel was one of the stupidest plans on the planet because any one with an ounce of any understanding of human beings would have grasped the end result. I think Palestine has an equal right to exist and a better claim to the land that is now Israel. For fuck’s sake, I have a better claim to that land than the Israeli claim of “It was our ancestor’s land”.

Green are Palestinian, White are Israeli, Dots are Settlements

The second problem is evident if you look at the map.

Palestine is “not” free, it has a fair few fences cutting it up and around 30% of it is suspiciously Israeli. In addition Israel has straight up built settlements inside the Green Line which is “illegal”. Extremely illegal. In modern parlance we call this an “invasion”.

So to recap… Palestinians already see Israel as some sort of invader taking all their stuff (because that totally happened) but also see them adhering to double standards (When Israel massacres Palestinians they don’t get sent to the Hague. Also the illegal settlements and fences are involved in taking what little stuff they have.

They aren’t free to travel in their own country, they cannot vote for who they want and they get shot trying to make a living. This is what breeds anger. To the Palestinian, a suicide bomber is not a terrorist but a freedom fighter, because that’s what they want.

Incidentally, the Palestinians should be thankful they are on the West Bank, as inconvenient as their situation is. Their compatriots in Syria are in much worse case, where over 800 have been killed since the uprising began. That’s several times more then were killed in both Gaza Strip actions by the IDF combined. The Syrian armed forces don’t bother with precision munitions, like the IDF does. They just apply Hama Rules.

In addition I should tell Greta and Jen to stop fighting for women’s rights in the USA because it could be worse, they could be living in Rajasthan (Shoes!? Fuck shoes! Boys get to wear shoes! You are lucky we didn’t drown you in a well!). Ian Cromwell should stop complaining about racism because he could be living in Ukraine (Neo Nazis were filmed at a major football match giving out the olde nazi salute just prior to last year’s Euro Cup Football Tournament). Or he could be living in the DRC where AIDS and Diarrhoea are a lot more pressing issues than what western culture thinks about the colour of people’s skin.

That’s the fucking attitude that got us into this mess in the first fucking place. Palestinians shouldn’t complain! In the 1900s we would have just machine gunned the lot of them while wearing some really jaunty shorts. Aren’t you lucky we magnanimous brits didn’t do that?

There are two solutions to the problem.

Either we recognise Palestine as a nation and provide it with an equal level of development and pay war reparations for the losses incurred since the formation of Israel. Also to pay for the loss of their old homes we give Jerusalem to them under a UN mandate that Jerusalem’s Jewish monuments are to be protected and Jews and Muslims both have free travel through the city.

Or we have to dissolve Israel as a Jewish state and make it a secular nation giving Palestinians equal rights as Israeli citizens along with reparations and other financial assistance. I don’t know… Call it Phoenicia or what have you.

To keep supporting Israel blindly is to keep supporting the cause for the instability.

Comments

  1. slc1 says

    The Palestinians don’t see Israel as an entity, they seem them as invaders. These are effectively a bunch of Europeans who have displaced them from their homes.

    Let’s reword that. The Native Americans didn’t see the USA (or, indeed the rest of the Western Hemisphere) as an entity, they saw them as invaders. These are effectively a bunch of European settlers who have displaced them from their homes and thrown them in reservations.

    To keep supporting Israel blindly is to keep supporting the cause for the instability.

    You know, Dennis Ross and Aaron Miller spent much of their professional lives during the Bush 1 and Clinton Administrations trying to solve the Israel/Palestinian problem. Every proposal they made was rejected by Yasir Arafat because of his refusal to give up the non-existent right of return of Palestinian refugees. And, as I pointed out, negotiations between Arafat’s successor, Abbas and then Israeli Prime Minister Olmert also broke down over the same issue. As Albert Einstein once said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

    The fact is, whether Mr. avicenna likes it or not, there will be no agreement unless and until the Palestinian leadership gives up this demand, which no Israeli government will agree to.

    Thus, we are left with two stark alternatives, either Israel will be wiped out or the Palestinians will be wiped out. The Palestinians have the desire but not the power to wipe out Israel, Israel has the power but not the balls to wipe out the Palestinians.

    According to blogger Jeffery Goldberg, it appears that the Obama Administration has come to the conclusion to implement the advice first given by the Irish diplomat and writer Conor Cruise O’Brien in the 1960s, namely let ‘em fight it out until they get tired of fighting; then they might be amenable to a negotiated solution mediated by Western governments.

  2. says

    Let’s reword that. The Native Americans didn’t see the USA (or, indeed the rest of the Western Hemisphere) as an entity, they saw them as invaders. These are effectively a bunch of European settlers who have displaced them from their homes and thrown them in reservations.

    As a Canadian of European ancestry I have to ask… Your point? The history of conquest on this continent is horrifying and the consequences are still happening today. The Idle No More movement, for example.

  3. brucegee1962 says

    Avicenna, I agree with about 80% of what you say here. However, the 20% that is off seems way, way off. That’s the question of whether or not Israel has the “right to exist.”

    One of the main reasons that the peace talks keep foundering is because the Palestinians refuse to admit that Israel has a right to exist. And a big part of their rhetoric is that the invaders should be pushed back into the sea somehow.

    That position, frankly, is insane. You’re correct that the setting up of Israel may be unjust, may be racist, may be tantamount to invasion and theft. But it’s also a historical fact. Sure, there are Palestinians alive who remember when their land got taken, but there are also far more Israelis who have grown up knowing no other country. The Israelis aren’t going to leave, and they’ve proven time and again that they’re able to keep what they’ve got.

    First Nation peoples who complain about all the broken treaties are speaking the truth, and if they demand better treatment, we should give it to them. But if they demand that all the settlers go back to Europe and pay them for use of their land for the last 300 years, they’re living in a fantasy world and they’re just going to be laughed at. There’s a point where you have to accept reality and move on. There’s a point where claims from the 1940s become pretty much equivalent to claims from 2000 B.C. — ancient history.

    I agree with you that it’s terrible the way the U.S. has given Israel a blank check to write our foreign policy. I agree that the fence (while not a terrible idea if it had been drawn to fit the 1962 borders) is oppressive and illegal and larcenous in its current implementation. I agree that the settlements are destructive to peace in every possible sense.

    But to say that Israel should stop existing isn’t a reasonable claim.

  4. says

    3. Which correlates to Israel not recognising the Palestinian right to exist.

    See the map? All that cream areas in Palestine are held by Israel. Every Black Dot is an illegal settlement. The major reason why Palestine refuses to recognise the right to exist is because Israel hasn’t removed all of them. The fence is used to cut Palestinians from resources. In addition anyone who goes near the fence is often shot. All those white bits are illegal land grabs and encroachments.

    Israel should either exist in tandem with an equal Palestine or be dissolved as a Jewish only state and become purely secular. Those are the only two options and Israel wants neither.

  5. says

    The Israelis aren’t going to leave, and they’ve proven time and again that they’re able to keep what they’ve got.

    People used to say the same thing about white rule in South Africa, ya know?

  6. Sercee says

    “Let’s reword that. The Native Americans didn’t see the USA (or, indeed the rest of the Western Hemisphere) as an entity, they saw them as invaders. These are effectively a bunch of European settlers who have displaced them from their homes and thrown them in reservations.”

    Sure. That’s not at all the same as what’s happening in Palestine, but ok. In the meantime, the people in the reservations (here in Canada, anyway, I don’t know about the USA) still get a bit of cash and have access to education and stuff. Some have to travel further or pay more for things, which is part of the raw deal they agreed to, but it is available and people do care, and there’s a lot of people trying to change the way it works. Nobody’s standing at the boundary of Hobbema or Attawapiskat with missiles and body armor, and nobody’s trying to make those borders smaller. Mistakes established history and here we are – I’m a proud Canadian lucky to live on the continent my ancestors brought me to, and in a position to help people who may have been shafted in that history.

    Israel being created was a horrific idea, but it’s done. There are people alive now who were born in “Israel”, not in “the land the UN stole for the refugees”. Those people have the right to be there now, too. It would be nice to just give it all back to the people it was stolen from but it’s far too late for that. I like the idea of making it a single, secular country (I like secular countries), but I wonder how long it would take for the streetfights and hate crimes to calm down. Both sides hate eachother – it doesn’t matter which side I think has “better reasons” for their hate, they just hate and, meanwhile, the war goes on.

  7. slc1 says

    Re avicenna @ #4

    Mr. avicenna keeps ignoring the fact that the Palestinians have had several opportunities to have an independent state since 1967 but have rejected them all. As a former Israeli foreign minister once said, the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Mr. avicenna has identified the reason why the Palestinians have missed their opportunities; they want all of Palestine, a desire which he evidently agrees with.

    Re Tabby Lavalamp @ #2

    The point is that the occupants of glass houses should beware of throwing rocks.
    The treatment of Native Americans by the governments of the USA and Canada was far worse then the treatment of Palestinians by Israel.

    Apparently, Mr. avicenna and Ms. Lavalamp are taking the position that the statute of limitations has run out on Native Americans but not on Palestinians.

    Re Surcee @ #6

    Native American tribes living on reservations have been given semi-autonomy by the government and have of late been allowed to set up gambling establishments, even in states where such activities are illegal. These have turned out to be very lucrative, attracting non-Native Americans, particularly in states somewhat remote from Atlantic City or Las Vegas.

  8. slc1 says

    Re Surcee @ #6

    I like the idea of making it a single, secular country (I like secular countries), but I wonder how long it would take for the streetfights and hate crimes to calm down. Both sides hate eachother – it doesn’t matter which side I think has “better reasons” for their hate, they just hate and, meanwhile, the war goes on.

    One only need observe what is going on in Syria currently, not even taking into consideration what may happen there if and when the Assad kleptocracy falls. As I stated previously,, an international force sufficiently large enough to impose order must be sent there after the fall of the Assad regime or there will be a massacre and an outflux of millions of refugees. In fact, the danger of the chaos spreading to Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, and possibly the West Bank should be of concern to the to leadership of those countries, as well as the West. I don’[t see much evidence of planning for this eventuality in Washington, London, Paris, or Berlin.

  9. says

    Thus, we are left with two stark alternatives, either Israel will be wiped out or the Palestinians will be wiped out. The Palestinians have the desire but not the power to wipe out Israel, Israel has the power but not the balls to wipe out the Palestinians.

    That’s a fair summary (except for the chickenhawk bit about “balls”) of a stupid person’s understanding of the strategic situation. The long-term likelihood is that Israel is going to cease to exist, if it is unable to transition to a non-apartheid state, no matter how barbaric the Israelis actions are. The only thing that is propping Israel up enough to survive in the short term is the US.

    The situation greatly resembles Rhodesia, or one of the other European colonies in Africa: a small population of European settlers establishing an apartheid regime relying heavily on military force to control and displace an internal population. As slc1 implies, the way to make that “work” has to be genocidal, because otherwise the colony always has to deal with the displaced population and can always be brought down if that population switches to Mao-style “total war.” The European settlers that conquered North America only succeeded because they resorted to genocide and were able to push the native population down to the level where it had no chance of offering any kind of resistance. History, to us, appears long when we think on the order of 300-400 years but it’s important to understand that the European conquest of North America is not “over” yet, and the long-term damage from American genocide and apartheid is going to be there as long as North America remains a colony of Europe. The reason it’s worked in the US is because there are not reservoirs of displaced population, or potential insurgents, in surrounding countries. Israel is more like Rhodesia and South Africa in the way that displaced population could blend into the surrounding countries and turn into an endless insurgency. The European colony in Vietnam had exactly the same problem, as well – even to the point of attempting genocide – but it could never have worked because the struggle was an ethnic genocide (the Vietnamese understood that, even if the French and Americans appeared to be to stupid to figure it out!) it was a piece of land that was literally made for insurgency and guerilla warfare, and it took the Vietnamese 100 years or so to expel the French colony, and substantially less to expel the Americans. The Vietnamese were willing to lose a lot of lives in the process (after all, Ho Chi Mihn would have said, it’s not like they had a choice) but the key lesson from European colonialism in Africa and Asia is that the long-term scenarios all end in defeat for the colonial power.

    See, Israel cannot even successfully adopt genocide (though they are trying to!) because the displaced population is now in Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan. They will always be a danger to Israel and if Israel succeeds in “ethnically cleansing” Gaza and the West Bank, it will only turn international anger on them and there will still be a million pissed-off Palestinian refugees in the countries surrounding Israel. The scenario is just like South Africa and Rhodesia: you can forget ever having normal relations or trade with the neighbors, and in a rational world would face economic blockade from the international community. When you look at the Vietnam War one of the things you cannot avoid is realizing that the colonial powers couldn’t make the bank shot on genocide because of the terrain and surrounding porous borders, to the war was an inevitable war of attrition of the colonists against the entire landscape. The more genocidal a colonizing power gets, the more it inevitably scares the neighbors (and produces more pissed-off displaced people) and the shorter the life-span of the colony gets. The United States would not be a successful world power if there had been a significant reservoir of native tribes in Canada that were able to take advantage of the porous border to arm and regroup and shelter.

    So to slc1′s comment about lacking the balls to be go for a final lsolution: it would be the ultimate tactics of mistake to do so. When you try to genocide people, they will certainly garner international support (an economic blockade of Israel would collapse the colony relatively quickly) or switch the targeted population onto a total war footing. It’s an absolutely inevitable human response to “I’m going to kill you all” to resist, and somewhere in Gaza right now is a young person who is a natural leader, hates Israel and could be Palestine’s Ho Chi Minh. What monsters like slc1 don’t understand is that the enemy almost always has options that can interfere with your plans, and sometimes getting tough on them just means you’re making them tougher on you. The surrounding Arab nations are pretty busy with their own affairs, threatened into cringing terror by the US, and (basically) paid off or turned into puppets. A Vietnam-style total war insurgency in Palestine would destroy Israel fairly quickly – in 20 years or so.

    I think it’s a really bad idea to consider Israel as being a “success” by any significant measure. It has really been a very short time, and they have managed to commit horrible crimes and piss off a lot of people in that time. It’s only the US’ protective hand over them that has kept them from being treated as an international pariah state. It’s way early innings, the fat lady hasn’t sung, etc.

  10. says

    Apparently, Mr. avicenna and Ms. Lavalamp are taking the position that the statute of limitations has run out on Native Americans but not on Palestinians.

    Thank you for making assumptions. I’m a supporter of Idle No More and my country’s ongoing trampling of treaties we’ve signed with First Nations people is a travesty that needs to be corrected.

  11. Sercee says

    @ slc1, You keep spelling my name wrong, somehow.

    ” These have turned out to be very lucrative,”

    Some of these are here, too. River Cree Casino just outside Edmonton, for example. Palestinians don’t get to run casinos that profit off Israeli tourism.

    “One only need observe what is going on in Syria currently, not even taking into consideration what may happen there if and when the Assad kleptocracy falls”

    That’s my point. I know I didn’t offer a different solution, but I honestly don’t know of one. When I said I like Avi’s idea of a secular country, I meant that but it’s obvious how well people would get along once they’re suddenly living side by side with the guys they were just exchanging pot shots with.

  12. slc1 says

    Re Sercee @ #11

    Actually, just after the Oslo Accords were signed, the Palestinians set up a casino in Jericho, which, for a time, attracted punters from Israel as well as from some of the oil rich states in the Gulf. Unfortunately, due to the homicide bombers and later the second intifada, this enterprise died aborning. Sorry about the mis-spelling.

    Re Marcus Ranum

    The attitude in Israel is very simple, if we have to go, we’ll take the rest of the world with us.

  13. says

    Mr. avicenna keeps ignoring the fact that the Palestinians have had several opportunities to have an independent state since 1967 but have rejected them all.

    Yes, and those silly Vietnamese didn’t accept the partition the French laid on them, either. If a leader with any strategic vision ever arises in Palestine, Israel is fucked.

    … Except that the Israelis tend to assassinate any Palestinian leader who appears to be succeeding (this is called “negotiating”) to form enough of a consensus to negotiate with. The rest of the world is not so fucking stupid that they dont understand that the Israelis aren’t interested in negotiating in good faith, and their mad expansion of their colony just screams “you cannot trust us no matter what we agree to!” Brilliant. Just brilliant.

    The international community understands that Israel is not negotiating in good faith and cannot be trusted. Rejecting Israel’s generous offers is the only rational thing the Palestinians could do.

    I’d like to further observe that when you say “the fact that the Palestinians have had several opportunities to have an independent state since 1967 but have rejected them all.” you are implicitly acknowledging that:
    a) There are Palestinians (let’s not have that “they are a manufactured people” bullshit, please)
    b) There is a Palestinian state that is capable of negotiating at all.
    c) There is something worth negotiating about.
    If you acknowledge those three things, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Israel is an occupying power and the discussion should be not about which borders after which war with neighboring Arab states should apply, but rather why aren’t the Palestinians being treated people whose land has been occupied, and who have been displaced and subjected to “ethnic cleansing”*

    After all, you can’t negotiate in bad faith without someone to negotiate with, and something to negotiate about.

    (* The official weasel-word used to avoid “genocide” which calls for immediate and stern UN inaction)

  14. slc1 says

    I think it’s a really bad idea to consider Israel as being a “success” by any significant measure. It has really been a very short time, and they have managed to commit horrible crimes and piss off a lot of people in that time.

    Compared to the crimes committed by Saddam Hussein, the Ayatollahs, and Assad pere and fils, the beastliness with which the Government of Israel has shown towards the Palestinians pales into insignificance.

    The situation of Arabs living in Israel is greatly superior to that of Arabs in the Arab world. This is not to be considered in any way, shape, form, or regard, as a pat on the back for Israel, it’s a sad commentary on the state of affairs in the Arab world.

  15. says

    The attitude in Israel is very simple, if we have to go, we’ll take the rest of the world with us.

    You are a monster.

    People like you are exactly why Israel should be:
    - Treated as a rogue nuclear state
    - Economically blockaded until they agree to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and bring their nuclear capabilities under IAEA
    - Sanctioned for proliferating nuclear weapons technology to South Africa

    All the shit the US is doing to Iran? We should be doing it to Israel, too. History will judge the US as being very short-sighted in this matter.

  16. brucegee1962 says

    Here’s my proposal: the United States should pressure Israel to impose unilateral statehood on the Palestinians, preferably based on the proposed 1962 borders. “Here’s your country, you now have autonomy, good luck.” It’s simply a lot easier to maintain security from a somewhat hostile neighbor than from a resentful indigenous population, as several earlier posters like Marcus have pointed out. The Palestinians would doubtless resent whatever borders they got, but they’d soon have other things to worry about as they tried to overcome the challenges of statehood.

    And the main barriers to this proposal, as Avicenna has pointed out, are the horrendous fence and the atrocious settlements. If allowed to stand, they’ve practically made a two-state solution impossible by simple geography. The long line of pandering Israeli politicians and spineless American presidents who were all unable or unwilling to do anything to stop the settlements are equally to blame — it’s as if we put the KKK in charge of our Department of the Interior.

  17. slc1 says

    Re Marcus Ranum @ #13

    The Government of Israel accepted the Taba proposed agreement worked out by
    American interlocutors Ross and Miller in 2000; the Olmert Government accepted the proposed agreement with Abbas in, I believe, 2007. Of course, Mr. Ranum doesn’t consider those proposals to be genuine offers because he rejects a 2 state solution and believes that the Government of Israel should agree to go out of business. Not going to happen.

  18. Sercee says

    @ slc1 #14

    “Compared to the crimes committed by Saddam Hussein, the Ayatollahs, and Assad pere and fils, the beastliness with which the Government of Israel has shown towards the Palestinians pales into insignificance.”

    Compared to Avicenna’s OP:
    “That’s the fucking attitude that got us into this mess in the first fucking place. Palestinians shouldn’t complain! In the 1900s we would have just machine gunned the lot of them while wearing some really jaunty shorts. Aren’t you lucky we magnanimous brits didn’t do that?”

    Case and point.

  19. says

    Compared to the crimes committed by Saddam Hussein, the Ayatollahs, and Assad pere and fils, the beastliness with which the Government of Israel has shown towards the Palestinians pales into insignificance.

    See, this is the attitude of a racist monster – bare for everyone to see. You actually think that pointing to crimes committed by another ethnic group somehow excuses the crimes committed by your favored ethnic group. It’s OK to commit a holocaust as long as it’s your people doing it and someone else has done worse?

    Effectively: “Sure, we’re shitty. But they’re really really shitty.”
    But, what’s worse still is you’re saying “A, B, and C committed crimes against their people, that are much worse than the crimes we’re committing against someone else entirely so that’s OK!?

    You should wear jackboots, and an armband, and goose-step around your room while you’re typiing this shit. Your comments have the reek of fascism so strong I can smell it over the interwebs.

  20. slc1 says

    Except that the Israelis tend to assassinate any Palestinian leader who appears to be succeeding (this is called “negotiating”) to form enough of a consensus to negotiate with.

    Is Mr. Ranum hinting at the canard that the Mossad bumped off Arafat? He died of AIDS which can hardly be blamed on Israel. The polonium accusations are preposterous. The amount of polonium that would have been required to present a reading 6 years after Arafat’s death would have been sufficient to waste him almost immediately, not over a course of several weeks. In 6 years, polonium (half life 138 days) would have been reduced by radioactive decay to less then 0.001% of the initial amount, not even detectable.

  21. slc1 says

    Re Marcus Ranum

    Excuse me, it’s Mr. Ranum that is calling for an Eichmann solution for the Jews of Israel.

  22. says

    slc1:
    I suspect that Mr. Ranum agrees with Egyptian President Morti

    Did you just wave the “anti-semite” card at me? Really? You’re disgusting.
    You’re doubly disgusting because you didn’t have the courage of your sick convictions enough to just play it openly. And you think to accuse me of being anti-semitic when all I am doing is pointing out how vile and monstrous your beliefs are. I’m amazed that you’d say things like you are saying, so publicly – you’re like some kind of charicature of a fascist out of a comic book. And you try to accuse me of anti-semitism to make yourself look better? Good luck with that.

    For the record:
    I am not anti-semitic. I don’t carry that kind of cultural baggage.
    I am anti-genocide. I am anti-occupation. I am anti-war. I am anti-proliferation. I am anti-apartheid.
    Israel does all those things in a large way, so in a broad sense I am anti-Israel. I was also active in the economic blockade against South Africa when it was an apartheid state.

    You need to realize that disagreeing with someone’s actions doesn’t mean you have to adopt their beliefs that motivated them.

  23. slc1 says

    Re Marcus Ranum @ #23

    I am not anti-semitic. I don’t carry that kind of cultural baggage.

    Of course not, who would think such a thing. Perish the thought. The only Jews that Mr. Ranum doesn’t like are those who live in the State of Israel.

  24. says

    The only Jews that Mr. Ranum doesn’t like are those who live in the State of Israel.

    And this is why criticizing Israel is its own special minefield. Invariably someone is going to just start accusing the critics of anti-Semitism because that’s the only possible reason someone would have to speak ill of anything Israel does.

  25. says

    Woah woah woah!

    Time out!

    Slc1 – Indicating someone else is an anti-semite merely for disagreeing with Israeli stances on things is just a terrible strategy. Neither is Godwinning the issue.

    [Continue]

  26. slc1 says

    Re Avicenna @ #28

    Excuse me, I disagree with the stance of the Government of Israel on a number of issues, just as I disagree with the stance of the Government of the United States on a number of issues. Just to set the record straight, I have no use whatever for Benjamin Netanyahu. IMHO, former President Sarcozy accurately characterized Bibi as a liar (I can’t stand him, he’s such a liar), as did former Israeli Prime Minister Sharon (You were born a liar). For better or worse, it would appear that Obama, who undoubtedly agrees with Sarkozy and Sharon, will be stuck with him for the rest of his presidency so he best find a way to make the best of it. Perhaps the appointment of former Senator Hagel as Defense Secretary will send Bibi a message and induce him to form a center/right government instead of a right/far right government.

    By the way, I have mentioned the situation in Syria several times in these exchanges. IMHO, the situation in Syria is far more dangerous then the Israel/Palestine situation as it threatens to destabilize Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq if it spreads. Equally serious is the apparent abandonment by the Syrian armed forces of positions opposite the cease fire line in the Golan Highths, leaving a vacuum which is being filled by Islamic extremists, including elements of Al Qaeda. It’s not clear if it’s because Assad is running out of cannon fodder or because he’s hoping the extremist elements will suck the IDF into the civil war in Syria, thereby, perhaps, unifying the country against the foreign enemy. In either case, a sign that he is losing.

  27. says

    The only Jews that Mr. Ranum doesn’t like are those who live in the State of Israel.

    You absolute asshole. Let me break it down for you:
    - I think your behavior is inappropriate. Making empty accusations of anti-semitism simply because I disagree with you is arguing in bad faith.
    - I would think it inappropriate regardless of your religion, ethnicity, skin color, or musical preferences.
    - Perhaps you are Jewish; I don’t know and don’t care to guess because: I dislike your behavior in its own right and your skin color, ethnicity, or musical preferences have absolutely nothing to do with your behavior in question.

    See how that works? I don’t like apartheid states that engage in genocide, whether they are Nazis or Jews or Afrikaaners or Americans or Green Martians… The reason I do not support Germany and Japan’s actions during the 1930s and 1940s is the same reason I do not support Israel’s actions during the present time. That is, in fact, the only logically and morally consistent position one can take on this topic. I know you get the picture; you’re just accusing me of anti-semitism in an attempt to offend me and because you really don’t have anything else that passes as an “argument.” You can do better than this. You’re just making yourself look like deranged wingnut.

  28. says

    slc1@29:
    Your incoherent self-justifying ramble to Avicenna in no way addresses the fact that you are making unsubstantiated accusations of racism about a complete stranger (that would be me). I think your best options are either to apologize, or to substantiate those accusations somehow.

    Now, if you’re a lousy strategist you’ll say something utterly stupid like “I am not going to take the time to weed through everything you’ve ever posted on the interwebs and try to quote-mine it for something that I can offer as evidence of anti-semitism/racism.” Which would be a fail-move because it would be tacit admission that you don’t know of any, right now, in other words you’d be admitting your accusations were baseless. Ooops. That’s why playing that particular card is bad strategy.

  29. says

    A simple question for slc1: if apartheid, ethnic cleansing and land-grabs are OK when Israel does them, why were they not OK when the nazis did them?

    My answer: they are never OK no matter who does them. Therefore they should be consistently opposed because to do otherwise is to choose to live in a world where one may find oneself on the wrong end of the power equation and be subjected to apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and land-grabs.

    Alternate form: what didn’t work for Germany and Japan will not work for Israel for the same reasons, it just will take longer because the powers in play are more lopsided than those at play in Europe during WW2. Now that the US Empire is collapsing under its own maintenance costs* that imbalance will lessen, possibly dramatically and suddenly.

    I don’t have a stake in any of this; military grand strategy, history, and geopolitics are a hobby of mine and I have been a declared anarchist since 1978. I do think it would be nice if the people of the world were not subjected to apartheid, dictatorship, wars of conquest, and ethnic cleansing. Regardless of who is doing it and who it is being done to, it’s unacceptable. My tribe is humanity and my race is mankind and my ethnicity is the interwebs.

    As an aside, I’ve always been fascinated at how, as people free themselves from religion and adopt various atheist social attitudes, we haven’t seen a similar wave of people rejecting the lie of nationalism and government. Just as atheism seems to me to be obvious and rational, post-nationalism and anarchism seem equally so. The similarity and collusion between the liars in government and the liars in religion shouldn’t escape anyone’s notice. But that’s another topic. My views on this are expanded on my website here: http://www.ranum.com/stock_content/anarchy.html

    (* Rome was an empire run for profit; the US has adopted a model of “sure, we’re losing money with every conquest we attempt, but we’ll make it up in volume!” Which will not work for obvious reasons. The Pax Americana is more fragile than it looks because it’s all being paid for with a stolen credit card.)

  30. slc1 says

    Re Marcus Ranum @ #32

    Shorter Mr. Ranumr: Netanyahu = Frankenberger.

    A simple question for slc1: if apartheid, ethnic cleansing and land-grabs are OK when Israel does them, why were they not OK when the nazis did them?

    I find Mr. Ranum’s charge of ethnic cleansing rather amusing. There are over 1 million Arabs currently living in Israel. If the Government of Israel is into ethnic cleansing, it is totally incompetent at it.

  31. bradleybetts says

    @slc1 #1

    “The Palestinians don’t see Israel as an entity, they seem them as invaders. These are effectively a bunch of Europeans who have displaced them from their homes.

    Let’s reword that. The Native Americans didn’t see the USA (or, indeed the rest of the Western Hemisphere) as an entity, they saw them as invaders. These are effectively a bunch of European settlers who have displaced them from their homes and thrown them in reservations.”

    Um, yes. That’s fairly accurate. What’s you’re point? Are you suggesting that we’re OK with the way the original US settlers treated the Native Americans, and that therefore we should be OK with the way Israel treats Palastinians? Because that is predicated upon the massive assumption that we’re OK with the way the original US settlers treated the Native Americans. A massive and, at least in my case, completely inaccurate assumption.

  32. bradleybetts says

    @Marcus ranam

    “All the shit the US is doing to Iran? We should be doing it to Israel, too. History will judge the US as being very short-sighted in this matter.”

    I already judge them as being ver short sighted. Not to mention pig-headed in their pursuit of a frankly mystifying pro-Israeli agenda. Why are US Conservatives so up on Israel? They have no significant oil reserves that I know of. As far as I’m aware they export some diamonds and recently found some offshore gas, but that’s it. Where is the advantage in supporting Israel? Is it because they invested so much in creating the state, and to see them fail would be an embarrassment? Or is it simply because it’s the only non-Muslim country in the area?

  33. slc1 says

    Re bradleybetts @ #34

    The issue is that people living in glass houses should be careful about throwing rocks. The US is poorly positioned to criticize Israel for being beastly towards the Palestinians when our record of beastliness against Native Americans was far worse. It has nothing to do with who’s right and who’s wrong.

    Re bradleybetts @ #35

    I already judge them as being very short sighted. Not to mention pig-headed in their pursuit of a frankly mystifying pro-Israeli agenda.

    A good question. However, polls show that the American public strongly supports the State of Israel and politicians, both liberal and conservative, are just reflecting the views of their constituents. I suspect that one of the reasons why is that, in terms of the makeup of the population, Israel is quite similar to the United States. That is to say that many Americans are the descendents of immigrants who came here to escape oppression in their native European countries, particularly Eastern Europe. Similarly, much of the population of Israel consists of immigrants from Europe and the Arab world who also came there to escape oppression in their native countries. This creates a natural sympathy between the two countries.

  34. says

    I find Mr. Ranum’s charge of ethnic cleansing rather amusing. There are over 1 million Arabs currently living in Israel. If the Government of Israel is into ethnic cleansing, it is totally incompetent at it.

    You didn’t answer my question.

  35. says

    bradleybetts wrote…

    Why are US Conservatives so up on Israel? They have no significant oil reserves that I know of. As far as I’m aware they export some diamonds and recently found some offshore gas, but that’s it. Where is the advantage in supporting Israel? Is it because they invested so much in creating the state, and to see them fail would be an embarrassment? Or is it simply because it’s the only non-Muslim country in the area?

    Oh, the answer is far scarier than that…
    http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2002/06/The-Rapture-Factor.aspx

  36. says

    Marcus Ranum

    Alternate form: what didn’t work for Germany and Japan will not work for Israel for the same reasons, it just will take longer because the powers in play are more lopsided than those at play in Europe during WW2. Now that the US Empire is collapsing under its own maintenance costs* that imbalance will lessen, possibly dramatically and suddenly.

    Additionally, the reason it ‘worked’ so much better in the Americas and Australia (in that aboriginal peoples’ resistance to such colonialism was and remains notably less effective than such resistance elsewhere) has a lot to do with the catastrophic effects of introduced diseases which killed off stunningly huge percentages of their population, such that there simply weren’t enough actual living people to resist as effectively. This is not to say that I condone the land grabs, genocide etc. Even if the diseases and the deaths stemming from them were an inevitable effect of contact with Eurasia (a contention I think may be defensible), that in no way justifies the deliberate acts of genocide that followed.

    As an aside, I’ve always been fascinated at how, as people free themselves from religion and adopt various atheist social attitudes, we haven’t seen a similar wave of people rejecting the lie of nationalism and government. Just as atheism seems to me to be obvious and rational, post-nationalism and anarchism seem equally so.

    Depending on your precise definintions of ‘government’, I am inclined to argue that some aspects of it are inevitable in an industrial or post industrial society, if you want to keep having one. To wit, there needs to be some system of implementing and maintaining infrastructure, determining what infrastructure is needed, etc. Doing this, in turn requires that there be professional administrators of some type, as even e.g. worker-owned producer cooperatives of significant size do. When that administration is for something that affects the public generally, I can’t think of another valid term than ‘government’ to describe it. I’m an anarcho-synidicalist by inclination, but I’m not convinced it’s actually viable in the real world. That’s really kind of an aside, although if you’d like to discuss it further where we wouldn’t be derailing Avicenna’s thread, I think we would both find the discussion edifying and enjoyable. Aside from that, I agree pretty much entirely with what you wrote above.

  37. Barklikeadog says

    “Why are US Conservatives so up on Israel? ”

    Because they are also the religious right and see Isreal as the place where armaggedon will occur with the coming of the antchrist and jesus’s return.

  38. left0ver1under says

    Avicenna, you can’t argue with slc for the same reason you can’t argue with a creationist. He has a predrawn conclusion about Israel that he will rationalize by saying anything, including contradicting himself and outright lying.

    Facts rarely have effect on the voluntarily ignorant. He will ignore and feebly attempt to “explain away” anything true that contradicts his opinion.

  39. bradleybetts says

    @slc1

    I’m not American… but I am English, and our treatment of the irish and the Scots was pretty much analogous. Either way, I’m not OK with it, and I’m not OK with Israels treatment of Palastinians. The fact my anscestors were a bit shit doesn’t mean that I don’t get to call out other people for being shit today. “The sins of the father” carries no weight to a rational mind; I am not responsible for their actions, so I have no glass house to worry about.

    Also, I don’t think it’s that at all. I think it’s a combination of this strange “Judeo-Christian values” bollocks they keep coming out with and straight up Islamophobia.

    @Tabby Lavalamp

    I knew there was some Biblical bollocks providing at least a facet of it but I’ve never quite understood it. Thanks for that; and you’re right, it really is a bit terrifying.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>