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Jan 09 2013

Age of Kali – A Voice for Morons || MRAs weigh in on India and it’s Men

There are always people who simply don’t get it. Whether they demand we specifically eliminate the people they know who don’t fit the sub-set or because they themselves cannot recognise a problem that’s endemic. Or worse are angry that their well established domination of society is being eroded.

It’s no secret now that India is not kind to it’s daughters. While some of it’s sons have rallied magnificently to help make a change some of them have been rather more recalcitrant. Some of them are unfortunately Men’s Rights Activists and indeed, A Voice for Men makes it clear that these “men” are welcome to spread their uniquely privileged world view upon the rest of us.

I was sorry for not thinking about “the men” earlier today, so I shall make amends…

So without further adieu here’s Anil Sharma’s take on the way women have it better in India than “the men”.

In response to PauI Elam’s request to hear from the men of India, I have the following to say. I am what you may call the average Indian male and I fall into the category that is the most hated, a young Indian male. Now, I cannot really provide you with statistics as I am no researcher, but I can provide you with accurate descriptions of misandry I have seen and experienced throughout the country. I have seen it happen countless times and have been subjected to official discrimination based on my sex as well.

No you are not. Anil Sharma is not the “Average Indian Male”. There are many reasons for this statement.

70% of India lives on under $2 a day. 93% on under $5. 1 in 3 Indians are below the poverty line and because of India’s population it has the largest population of people under poverty than any other country. The fifteen poorest countries in sub Saharan Africa have fewer poor people. There is a LOT of poverty.

Anil Sharma is basically upper middle class/upper class. He may not be “Scrooge McDuck” rich but he is “rich” enough to have luxuries out of the reach of most Indians unless they put some serious graft into saving up. Economically speaking in India he is the 1%.

The most loved group of people are the Young Indian Male. Anil is basically so blinded to the actual reality of India that it hurts me but then again he isn’t the first. I know of a young lady who insisted that healthcare in India was better than the UK and when I pointed out that 70% of Indians couldn’t access the healthcare she had she “didn’t care”. Many Indians are blinded to the way things are in the rural sector of their country. So let’s see what misandry exists in India and how it affects Anil….

In New Delhi, which is infamously called the Rape Capital, men are treated like beasts. Since the preconceived notion is that men are the perpetrators and a woman cannot lie about being troubled by a man, even the slightest hint of discomfort shown by a woman could mean doomsday for a man. The rapes that actually do happen are mostly at night when girls roam around unguarded in very bad neighborhoods, but the media portrays it as a crime that happens around the clock in every possible area. I do not know anybody who has known rape victims personally but I know many who knew murder, attempted murder and assault victims. Statistics would easily tell you that murder and assault are more common in New Delhi than rape, and that men are murdered and otherwise harmed much more frequently than women.No one is rioting on the streets about what is happening to men.

New Delhi reports around 600 rapes a year with around 5 convictions. However London (a similar sized city) reports close to 15,000 rapes a year. In fact India as a whole only records around 25,000 rapes a year while the UK reports 50,000. Does this mean that India is safer than the UK?

Every Single Guide Book to India, every single website dedicated to travel and nearly every woman who has been to India outside the realm of the super rich and the chartered tour have stated that travelling in India is best as a group or with men for safety and even then the women should expect to be molested, abused or stalked by men. Yet no such warning exists for the UK.

If we read the stories of sexual abuse, most women in India have a story about either abuse they faced or know off. They may even not realise something being done was abusive or dangerous. Many people consider “stalking” to be romantic. That unrequited love and demonstration of such will win hearts. Many women often encourage this sort of behaviour because “If a guy stops stalking it means her doesn’t want you”. This is because unlike the west where we do have a culture of dating, the equivalent in India was born out of movies and was created by people who themselves had little to no idea of how to behave on a date or around women.

By my rough estimation, if India had a similar incidence of rape as the UK it would have over a million cases (or 3 million assuming the UK’s report rate). However we know that in India the report rate is low because most women consider reporting a rape as shameful and bringing dishonour to families (mainly in the North though), many are scared of repercussions and many are raped within marriage which is “not a crime in India”. The incidence of rape is extremely high despite the low report rates.

I reported on “rapes” and threats that occurred in rich neighbourhoods too.

And note the language… when girls roam around bad neighbourhoods. Yes these women got raped because they were loitering around “areas where rapists like to congregate“. And I reported on rapes that occurred in bright daylight. (Clearly those rapists struck during an eclipse). Anil seems to be confusing rapists with vampires, an understandable mistake to make since Twilight is marketed to a more widespread audience in India than in the west. Glad to see there is a man here who thinks rape doesn’t occur during daylight or because women dared to step outside the purdah. Did you know KFC was blamed for rape? Not the men who rape or the culture of acceptable sexual assault?

Murder and assault are more common in India than rape because rape report rates are low and because many Indian policemen don’t accept reports on sexual harassment. And women are more susceptible to murder and assault too.

It is an attitude you see reflected in many other ways in Indian culture. Our buses have seats reserved for women; the front half. One row is reserved for senior citizens and one more row is reserved for handicapped travelers. Now, the rows reserved for senior citizens and handicapped travelers may or may not always exist. But every bus will have seats reserved for women. I stand up out of courtesy for middle-aged men and women. I believe that they deserve respect as they are an elder to me.

Yes women have seats reserved for them on buses.

But I have seen girls, young college girls, making old men sitting on seats reserved for women stand up so that they can have the seat. I come home after working for 10 hours in the office. I never get a seat in the bus. The back of the bus is always full and if the front half is empty, I can only sit there for a few minutes unless I am really lucky. As soon as a girl enters a bus, I am out. Due to sheer embarrassment and fear, men continue to stand even when the seats at the front are vacant. Due to this, buses are often very crowded at the back. Men never take the front seat unless they feel really lucky and all the seats at the back are full. A few air conditioned buses do not have reserved seats (I travel in these as far as possible).

In Tamil Nadu where I work the seats on the left side of the bus are reserved for women except for one which is the conductor’s side facing seat. The entire right side of the bus (which has more seats) is for open seating.

Wait? I thought the front of the bus was ridiculously empty? Yet when a girl walks in with a itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face you have to go stand in the back of the bus immediately?

But yes this is something that does occur, HOWEVER you can use these seats until a woman comes in or someone asks you to move, also these seats are available for men.

And here’s the gripe, the seat was reserved for women and an old man was sat there. Making him stand may have been a slighly wrong move, but here is the thing. Why aren’t any of the strong men giving up their seats for this old man?

And do you know why these seats were reserved? Two reasons. Women used to STAND in buses rather than sit because men would take the seats and because men would sit next to unaccompanied women to grope them. Plenty of female travellers unaware of the seating conventions often end up getting groped by men who sit next to them. These safe spaces ensure women can use public transport. And in many parts of India women end up standing too.

In Delhi metros, there is a coach reserved for women. This coach can remain empty but men cannot enter it. Apart from this, we are also constantly reminded (through announcements) to give our seats to ladies if they are standing. I would be willing to give my seat to an old woman or a pregnant lady. But young women? Healthy college girls?

Same as in Japan and indeed for the same reason.

Because of the grope culture and harassment culture that exists. We are familiar with Japanese Grope Culture and the attitudes there. Where society treats it as “harmless fun”, well India calls that Eve Teasing rather than “Sexual Harassment”.

As for healthy college girls? Indian women can be universally considered to be anaemic. Most Indian women never do sports beyond the very very mild. Many Indian women cannot believe that I have friends who have run marathons as women. They don’t think women can exercise. In many traditional families women eat last so they often have insufficient food because the men take the “lion’s share”. In addition in Hinduism women are expected to follow fasts… all of which take a toll on their strength.

So many college girls aren’t capable of doing what we do. The fact I can stand 3 to 5 hours as long as I have space to occasionally stretch my legs is seen as remarkable. Many women wouldn’t be able to stand an hour let alone two because of the underlying anaemia. Healthy College Girls? Don’t make me laugh, some of the people who I see are ridiculously rich and don’t even meet the basic criteria for “blood donation” let alone standing through Indian rush hour. Oh don’t worry, India is trying to counter this problem through supplementation of diet for women but frankly if Anil knew he would be demanding we do the same for all them men too!

There is more. I was recently standing in a very long queue to buy an interstate bus ticket. After waiting for more than an hour the queue had hardly moved. Why? A smaller queue had materialized next to our queue. A queue for women only. The tickets were being given to them first. A few women buy, they leave and then more women come, while the men wait. I got my ticket after 2 hours. It was 2am. I wanted to board the midnight bus.

Because men touch women in queues and any place where women cannot move away from men. And most women won’t complain because of the purdah system. Because being molested means they haven’t done enough to be invisible.

The segregated line is to allow women to participate in society till they don’t require a separate line any more. And this line issue is more due to the fact that India is big on bureaucracy so won’t bend the law (unless there is a bribe involved!) to allow men to use an empty women’s line to make a queue go faster. But the women’s queue exists so that women can actually participate in society rather than be terrified of the lines where they cannot move and escape their molester.

If you try to make people understand that even men can be raped, they don’t believe it. It took me some time to convince my friends, all of whom are well-educated. Imagine how difficult it is going to be to make the entire country believe that this crime exists. In India, it is assumed that no girl likes sex whereas sex is all that men can think about.

The majority of male rapists are other men.

The number of women who rape men are rare and indeed the major problem MRA’s have is rather than try to provide help for the male victims of rape, they instead poison the well for female rape victims. We have a similar example to being raped as a man which is being raped as someone who is Trans, but look at the work of Zinnia and Natalie on here, both campaign not for the reduction of rights of women but for the inclusion, expansion and improvement of rights for trans people. MRA’s if they were really interested in halting male rape would do this. They would campaign for open language on rape, a reduction of the stigma and getting men who were abused to come forwards rather than belittling women with some of the least freedom anywhere in the world. Yes, India needs to expand male rape laws (see! I did mean my apology yesterday! And you all thought I was sarcastic!) but it also needs to expand rape laws as a WHOLE.

Did you know India doesn’t think rape within marriage is possible? That even female judges have ruled that the act of marriage = consent for ever? In order to be accused of marital rape you and your wife must be separated for 7 years. That one of the most common forms of rape in the world isn’t considered as one. If your husband rapes you, you just carry on as it’s a fact of life.

The total number of rapes on women is higher than that on men. The majority of rapes are however carried out by men on both men and women.

Most of the discotheques in India are openly sexist. The entry fee structure is usually something like this:

Ladies – FREE/negligible

Couples – 1000 Rs., since you are getting a MAN (rapist, demon, molester) with you

Men – 1500 Rs., or NO ENTRY

The justification? The same as it is in the west. Girls attract crowds. Girls will attract men and men will pay. Okay, so sexism is a business decision. But many discotheques don’t even allow men unless they have women with them. Recently, I saw a man trying to go alone inside a discotheque. He was denied entry. So, he went out and asked a random girl to accompany him to the discotheque. Now get this. He was still denied permission because they had seen him before without a girl.

You remember I started explaining privilege right? About how Anil is in the 1% of India?

Well, per week in India I spend around Rs 800 outside of basic costs. I couldn’t afford to take my girlfriend (If Tiga were here) to a club on my dime. I would have to save up for a month by ignoring some luxuries to raise that Rs. 1000. To go on my own is effectively two weeks worth of money. I haven’t been to a club here outside of being invited by people for corporate events (Last year when I got to go to a December magazine launch party and they had a free bar!). Basically? Anil is effectively richer than me and I am in the top 10% if he can afford to “club”.

Oh and single men are priced higher because it makes money and because it keeps the “poor people” out because the notion is that they are more likely to molest women. Indian clubs aren’t as social a place as our bars. Also? Many Indian women don’t go to them so trying to attract them to produce the same kind of atmosphere as a western club is a big issue. From what I remember it was like being back at my first high school ball, where all us first years stood at the edges staring at the mysterious beasts that are girls (If you recall? I threw up on my date because I was so nervous… So imagine being at the actual event!) . It was that kind of vibe because clearly Indian women want to talk to men and men to women but one side sees the other as a piece of meat and the other side as a bunch of rapists.

Our Constitution is shit in written form. Check out this link:

http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/1942013/.

According to our Constitution, nobody can be discriminated on the basis of gender. But, if you read the sections related to dowry, rape, other sexual offences, etc., you’ll see that our Constitution itself is hostilely  misandrist. The “modesty of a woman” is a common phrase in our laws. It is not even clear what modesty of a woman really is but it roughly makes a woman’s body a treasure which every man wants to possess by force (Read Section 354 of the IPC for more information). In cases of adultery, only the man can be held guilty. There were efforts made to make this law gender-neutral. But take a look at the following article which provides 1. the justification for having such a biased law and 2. the reason why it was proposed to scrap the law (it’s not because it’s against men).

Actually those are parts of the law based on British Common Law…

Section 354 is “outrage of modesty of women” which is a highly nebulous law that doesn’t protect any women from sexual harassment due to it’s universality. What? Does Anil think there is a plot by the Lonely Planet or Footprints to portray India as a rapetastic place? Fuck no. It’s because this law isn’t enforced properly.

Adultery is an offence but it’s being changed from one to a civil issue. It’s something to fight but to hold it as “SEE THE MENZ HAVE IT WORSTEST” is just plain stupid.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/consider-scrapping-adultery-from-indian-penal-code/1/163101.html

In general, men are considered evil everywhere in the country. Videotapes of women beating men are showcased here and any acts of violence against women (even if its self-defense) are condemned. You already have a lot of videos on your blog. When the Delhi girl was raped, newspapers, magazine articles and Facebook walls were flooded with brutal remarks calling for barbaric punishments like public beating and castration. The physical violence involved in the crime against the man was completely overlooked. Nobody was concerned about the girl’s friend (probably her boyfriend). He saw his friend getting raped and he was beaten up by the men, too.

Oh really?

My Aunt was beaten by her husband. She was beaten in India and beaten in the UK. She was beaten at home and even at the hospital where she worked. She wasn’t some quiet uneducated village girl with no idea about the world. She was a doctor.

My family did fuck all. His family did fuck all. In fact I am deeply disappointed with my family since they let the abuse go on for nearly 15 to 20 years. There was no voice for my aunt. She was beaten so badly that her kidneys were damaged, eventually she died due to complications from a kidney transplant outside the statutes of damage.

Men who hit women in India are not punished for hitting women, they are punished for getting CAUGHT hitting women. And Anil is talking about a recent case where a politician was attacked by a horde of women… after he was caught raping a woman. Because she couldn’t fight back WOMEN fought back as a group. Because these women cannot trust the police to arrest him they made a big enough fuss to create an issue which forced this man’s arrest. Otherwise he would have simply walked away. 5 MPs in India are facing rape charges… These are men who rule India….

The reason why so little was reported about the young man was because of the media lock down on the case. However when he was released this young man came out and gave a statement about how he was treated. And it weighs awfully badly on Indian men and India as a whole.

During the protests, a policeman was killed while performing his duty. There was hardly any news about him. Indians are concerned only when a woman is the victim and the concern is doubled if the woman is raped.

The police also opened fire on protesters with live ammunition. Women were willing to DIE for the right not to get raped to death. Oh if the young lady who got raped lived her assailants would have got just TWO YEARS in jail as a maximum sentence.

Indians were concerned because sadly a relatively rich victim was targeted and the scale and inhumanity of the crime. She was sodomised with a foreign object causing perforations of her intestines. In effect she was impaled on an iron rod. No one came to help these two and the police fucked up. That’s why it was big news. In addition politicians and indeed people like Anil shot off their stupid mouths insulting the raped girl and blaming everything from Chinese food to her clothes to her boyfriend to her willingness to fight back against the rapists. When women protested peacefully police intervened with force sparking a riot. Women were willing to die to get better treatment.

Then the Assamese riots began due to a rape there. Police opened fire there killing journalists.

A film actor was convicted of rape a few years back. The whole country went berserk. Later, the victim changed her statement and said that she was not raped. This time nobody cared. Many people are still not aware of this development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiney_Ahuja#Rape_conviction

The actor himself confessed to rape. It’s there in the fucking Wiki article. If you are running around confessing to sex as rapes then we really have a problem here. However if we are to believe Shiney’s confession then he has raped a woman and has admitted to it and unfortunately Anil simply didn’t bother reading past “Woman retracts statement”.

Did you ever consider why she retracted that statement? (Witness Badgering? Bribes? Threats? All common enough)

Yes, in our country some women are raped, tortured and subjected to humiliation. So are men. But we do not recognize those crimes against men. There are no laws to save or help men, only laws to attack them and keep them down. You can see the results of that on our streets in recent days.

At a much much MUCH lower rate and because rapes aren’t reported.

There are few laws to help men, but that’s because every time you discuss the rape of women you have idiots like Anil come out blaming women and saying that they have it “easy”. Also because Indian men are so dominant in Indian society. India is like the west in the 1950s where men are men and strong women need “taming”. It needs the first or second wave of feminism which fought against entrenched patriarchy, which is why a lot of Indian feminists seem “distasteful” to modern western feminists. Because what they are fighting is the kind of bullshit our parents and grandparents had to face down.

Don’t believe me? Anil basically has used he old argument often bandied around in the 70s “If Women Want to Be Equal, Why Must I still Be Chivalrous And Hand Over My Bus Seat” stance of a lot of anti-feminists.

But I was already aware. I saw the real problem with my own eyes; in a queue to buy a bus ticket, and in the eyes of old men, forced out of their seats to stand on a bus so that smug, entitled college girls can have a comfortable spot to rest their asses. I seem to remember hearing of similar rules, in one of the darker chapters in the history of America.

Really Anil?

Remind me again, are the majority of leaders in power men? Remind me again about the thousands of women who die each year in highly suspicious kitchen fires? Remind me again about all the women who have to pay money to marry a man or about all the supposedly false rape stories women seem to send in? Remind me again about the Purdah system or how many “rich, entitled girls” are sent to college to net them a husband in India’s  marriage trade?

And you wish to compare Indian men to the apartheid of America? Rosa Parks fought for equal treatment of black people to white people. Women are fighting in India for equal treatment to men. If white people were randomly jamming their hands down black people’s pants then I am sure black people would have had a special section white people weren’t allowed into.

This isn’t separate and equal, this is providing women with a bare minimum of facilities in a culture that still kills female babies. Please don’t compare your MRA stupidity to the pain and suffering of the American Apartheid, mainly because India is responsible for inspiring the fall of the American Apartheid. King was a big fan of Gandhi and even met Nehru to learn how he fought for freedom. He actually was more influenced by the erudite and educated Nehru rather than the ascetic values of Gandhi.

Take pride in that, don’t claim that Indian women are oppressing you so much that you feel like black people in the 60s. As an Indian man you straight up earn more money, get more promotions, have more rights, are given more respect, more freedom and are taken more seriously than women. To claim Rosa Parks as your spirit guide is just stupid. You are not Rosa, you are the KKK. You are against the rights of women and an emblem of everything that is wrong with Indian men.

Mamas don’t let your babies grow up to be MRAs.

34 comments

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  1. 1
    Crommunist

    The original formatting on this post only hyperlinks “A Voice For Me”, with the “n” left off the end by either happy accident or the most brilliant and bitingly insightful piece of rhetorical re-working I’ve ever come across.

  2. 2
    michaeld

    Hehehe, thanks Ian I needed a laugh after getting through this post. ugh. I’m starting to get the distinct impression India might have a bit of a sexism problem (understatement of the day).

  3. 3
    Avicenna

    On purpose, the alternative was a joke on the Man-hating project but this seemed a lot more amusing to me.

  4. 4
    Marcus Ranum

    The content-specific advertising engines are having an aneurism over this one. Good.

  5. 5
    wytchy

    I almost couldn’t handle all the stupidity in his comments. I can’t believe he dares compare the situation of Indian men to the horrific racism that took place in the United States. What a duplicitous, steaming pile of shit. Maybe if he were advocating for men to stop groping women on buses and in lines, there wouldn’t have to be sections just for women. The fact that he sees that as some kind of privilege for women and disadvantage to men shows just how self-centered and unaware of reality Anil is.

    In short, he can go fuck himself.

  6. 6
    Argle Bargle

    Anit has a problem seeing past his own privilege.

  7. 7
    volarlejos

    I recently spent 3 months in the north of India for research!
    This blogentry is so damn accurate, it’s frightening! It is exactely what I experienced as a girl alone in India! Luckily I’m not shy and avoided all the situations that in the predominant Indian discourse on sexuality make girls “responsible” for their own rape: no walking in the dark, rarely alone, no attractive clothes, make-up, evena firendly smile! but still I was looked upon like a piece of meet by a pack of dogs on a daily basis!

    I study cultural anthropology and I am in favor of cultural relativism. If certain traditions are wanted by the local population, outsiders shouldn’t impose new rules. But in the case of India, only most (luckily not even all) men seem to like their culture of sexual harrassment or “Eve Teasing” or whatever you wanna call it! All women I talked to are disgusted by the way (their) men behave! That means that at least half of India’s population (the women) want, or rather need, change in their society! Women of India, don’t let them tyrannize you anymore! Keep fighting for your rights and for the respect you deserve!

    There is just one thing a wanna add: It is not only about protecting women, it is also about educating men!

  8. 8
    Astrokid.NJ

    The police also opened fire on protesters with live ammunition. Women were willing to DIE for the right not to get raped to death. Oh if the young lady who got raped lived her assailants would have got just TWO YEARS in jail as a maximum sentence.

    Are you sure about this?
    Rape Laws in India

    3. Gang Rape ( Sec.376 Subsection 2- g)
    “Where a woman is raped by one or more in a group of persons acting in furtherance of their common intention, each of the persons shall be deemed to have committed gang rape within the meaning of this sub-section. ”

    Thus even if five men force a women into having sexual intercourse with only one of them, the remaining four will also be considered to have committed rape under this law. Punishment

    Rigorous imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than ten years but which may be for life and shall also be liable to fine: Provided that the court may, for adequate and special reasons to be mentioned in the judgment, impose a sentence of imprisonment of either description for a term of less than ten years.

  9. 9
    Shplane, Spess Alium

    @Astrokid

    Note the last part. The court is capable of offering a lower sentence. I don’t know, specifically, what was going on, and it may be caused by something else entirely, but presumably the courts often bend the meaning of “adequate and special” to provide much shorter sentences.

  10. 10
    Corey Wrenn

    Excellent article, it was an enjoyable read.

  11. 11
    gillt

    It was strange going to a few bars in Chennai and Dubai and not seeing one woman. They’re out in the streets but not in the bars. But worse was having guys snap photos of and video tape the blond-haired women in my group anytime we were in public…always unsolicited. I returned the favor by taking pictures of them taking pictures of her at which point they slunk off. She learned to cover her head after that.

    However, in Dubai the groping and persistant ogling is much worse. Total creeper mentality. While the public transport may be cleaner the dudes are far scummier.

  12. 12
    ewilde1968

    This week I’ve openly brought up current events about the rapes here at the office in Noida. Female colleagues are few and far between, and the female colleague here with whom I most closely worked has left her career to take care of children, so I’ve only had the opportunity to discuss with male colleagues yet. The response has been interesting.

    The two most common responses are to:
    - Blame journalists and social media culture for trumpeting these events beyond their due. In such a case, when I frankly bring up the idea of a strong patriarchy in India there is either flat denial or change of subject. Its difficult to pursue conversations at work in the face of these responses since I must continue a reasonable working relationship with the individuals; but, the response most resembles defensiveness in the face of fear or accusation. It reminds me very much of my experiences growing up a “yankee” in the deep south of the US, where bigots would recoil whenever the notion of white privelege was raised.
    - Desperation in the face of inaction, helplessness to help or change society. This is usually from individuals who have studied or worked abroad for some substantial portion of their lives. They view the democratic process in India as corrupt and incompetent. The protests and outrage are a flash in the night, which will be gone without effect tomorrow. Watching the India parliament, I cannot blame them for their hopelessness.

  13. 13
    Avicenna

    Astrokid – The rape report rate in India is less than 1% of the total since India records less rapes than the UK which is physically impossible unless it has 1/40th the rape rate that the UK does, however anecdotal evidence collected independently shows that rape is a lot more common than the reports suggest. Out of the 600 rapes reported in Delhi last year only 2 resulted in convictions.

    Pakistan once upon a time posted just 12 rapes a year in a population of 120 million (A rate of 1 per 10 million), does that mean that there is no Rape in Pakistan or that “Rape isnt’ being reported”?

    Even when found guilty of rape the sentences are often hilariously small or bail is set at terrifyingly low amounts. If a woman was found to be drunk her testimony is invalid. If a woman is found to be mentally ill her testimony is invalid. If she was vaguely promiscuous it can be invalided.

    It’s simple… The OP is the fucking apex of Indian society. The absolute Zenith bar the “Scrooge McDuck” brigade. Anyone who can drop Rs 1000 on a club (In pounds? 15 quid roughly which is fucking steep even in the UK. I don’t go to fifteen quid cover clubs when I am in the UK…) is pretty fucking rich by the standards of India. Hell, either he is pretty fucking rich by the standards of the UK (and the USA, it’s above 20 dollars for cover) or is really shite with money.

    I will admit, I was unaware of differences however a quick look through prior cases shows an average of 5 years of incarceration and most people getting off with a slap on the wrists and even fines. The judicial system is insufficiently geared towards prosecution of rape effectively because so many people walk free…

    It’s simple and tragic. Why do Indian men not touch women in Singapore? Same reason why no one spits on the pavement or litters there… Because the response is fast, strict and public. You don’t have to beat the shit out of molesters you just need fast, strict and public justice. You need to jail your rapists, you need to not have a two tier system where you can HIRE rapists in public office who haven’t served their time and you need to make punishment public and visible while deterring the mistreatment of women.

    A bunch of MRA’s whinging about queues is not what India needs. It’s the LAST thing that Indian women need.

  14. 14
    Astrokid.NJ

    @Avicenna:
    For full disclosure, I am an MRA and I hang out at AVFM, and I am Indian. Of course, our opinions are poles apart, and we arent getting into any dialogue anytime soon.

  15. 15
    Avicenna

    Well you do know that nearly every piece of advice given to women travelling to India will involve “Dressing Modestly” (AKA no jeans and t-shirts or tops… Dress like a Potato) or don’t travel alone? Don’t Drink? Lock doors securely, don’t stay in hotels without security chains, leave contact details and planned schedules, give trusted people the number plates of your taxi, Don’t be friendly to men, don’t take food from strangers, if you are travelling with an organisation ask for a trusted guide…

    Basically the entire world sees brown people as super rapey because we frankly are… The majority of Indians live in India and so their behaviour makes the stereotype.

    To support the MRA is to simply exacerbate the problem.

    Simple trick. Google travel advice for women in India. How many of them involve modesty and safety. If your country has a dress code, then your culture is terrible…

    And it’s my culture too. Which is why it must change. Which is why we shouldn’t listen to MRAs. Do you have any grasp of how insane it is to be whinging about women? It’s like rich white millionaires whinging about scholarships for poor black kids…

    It really is that stupid.

  16. 16
    DLC

    A voice for men ? sounds more like “A voice for whiny boys”. Yes, boys, your millenia-old privilege is being reduced. Your right to treat women like things is being removed. Continue to whine if it pleases you, but understand that your behavior is more and more becoming marginalized, and found by the vast majority of people to be unacceptable. No, it isn’t happening all at once, and it hasn’t happened fast enough, but slowly, inevitably, it is happening. Even in India, eventually, things will improve.

  17. 17
    Nepenthe

    I love Astrokid’s 14.

    Translated: “I just stopped by to make sure that you know how misandric Indian rape laws are. Yes, I realize that no one has ever actually been</i sentenced to 10 years for raping a woman with a bunch of their friends, but I still think you ought to know that it's possible.”

  18. 18
    mikmik

    Let’s have a look at the larger picture:

    The 50 Million Missing Campaign is a global campaign against female genocide in India. The aim of this blog is to raise public awareness about the systematic annihilation of more than 50 million women from India’s population in 3 generations, and the factors such as female feticide, infanticide and dowry murders that are at the root of it.

    That works to about one million females every year.

    THE 5 TOP-PRIORITY GOALS OF THE CAMPAIGN ARE:

    1. To make public the scale of this disaster. Our pilot survey indicates that, even though there is a general awareness of the issues pertaining to female genocide, the public is largely uninformed about the actual scale of this crisis, and/or is in denial of it.

  19. 19
    Kausik Datta

    Avicenna, in the main post you mentioned:

    New Delhi reports around 600 rapes a year with around 5 convictions.

    In the comments you mentioned:

    Out of the 600 rapes reported in Delhi last year only 2 resulted in convictions.

    There may be a slight mistake in these figures, because according to the Indian News Media, the situation is even worse – Out of 635 rape cases between January and November 2012, Delhi had only one conviction.

    Consider, along with that, the utterly deplorable inefficiency of Indian laws, law-enforcement and the judiciary against the scourge of sexual violence against women (I have written a bit on that), and it becomes difficult to begrudge the women in India whatever little measure – although grossly inadequate – the government has taken to ensure their safety in public.

    But of course, to any sane and rational person, the insensitivity, and lack of empathy and humanity of whiny, obdurate morons like Anil and Astrokid and AVFM dudes become crystal clear.

  20. 20
    Kilian Hekhuis

    For full disclosure, I am an MRA

    It really should be called MPA…

  21. 21
    garnetstar

    So, I see that oppression in India takes different forms for women and men. I wonder which which form, if I lived in India, I would find easier to bear?

    Let’s see, gang rape and murder, or standing in the back of the bus.

    Gosh, it’s hard to decide.

  22. 22
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Let’s see, gang rape and murder, or standing in the back of the bus.
    Gosh, it’s hard to decide.

    The rape and murder, surely! I mean having to STAND on the bus? How horrible! And even after working a FULL normal work day!? The cruel inhumanity of having to stand is clearly worse than being raped with iron rods till you die. I mean, the precious, delicate, dainty, poor oppressed boys! Having to stand!

    I mean, obviously, saying you were raped equals automatic fame, fortune and happy times for all women, so that’s why they all lie about it, amirite?

    But having to STAND? That’s cruel and unusual punishment for the delicate, dainty “men”!

  23. 23
    bspiken

    In Mexico City they have similar measures in the subway, also there is something I’ve noticed here, the “average guy” rarely complains about this (meaning the guy who usually takes the subway at peak hour when the front cars are reserved for women), however several authors have written somewhat annoyed by this.

    I do think that there is more “hey equal means sit right here next to a groper lady!” in well off segments of the population (maybe not the 1%, but certainly high middle class), rather than the people who know that their daughters, wife, sisters, etc. travel in this way.

  24. 24
    Astrokid.NJ

    @17: Nepenthe:
    Anjana Mishra rape case

    Anjana Mishra rape case was a high profile rape case that occurred in state of Orissa (India) in 1999. Anjana Mishra, estranged wife of an Indian Forest Service officer, was raped on 9 January 1999. The case had created a furore in the State with Anjana accusing the then Chief Minister J. B. Patnaik and his friend former Advocate-General of Orissa Indrajit Ray of having played a role in the incident…

    After a long battle, Anjana Mishra has won her case. In a judgment delivered on 29 April 2002 the District and Sessions Judge of Khurda, Orissa, sentenced two of the three accused persons in the case to life imprisonment and a fine of Rs.5,000 each. Judge Mahendra Nath Patnaik convicted Pradip Sahoo and Direndra Mohanty on charges of sexually assaulting Anjana while she was travelling in a car from Cuttack to Bhubaneswar along with a friend on 9 January 1999 . The third accused, Biban Biswal, is still absconding.

  25. 25
    Avicenna

    I suggest you re-read the entire wiki article to see what it took to get justice. Oh and the person who orchestrated the rape is still at large. Oh and read the proper verdict mate.

    Your example is “fucking terrible”.

  26. 26
    Avicenna

    For those who don’t wish to google…

    Life and Rs 5000 (A paltry fine BTW) OR 6 Months Rigorous Imprisonment

  27. 27
    Astrokid.NJ

    Nepenthe said nobody has actually been sentenced to 10 yrs (or more, implied). Thats an extra-ordinary claim.. the onus of which is on her/him to prove. I just provided an example as disproof .. to preemptively show how full of shit that claim is.
    re: Biban Biswal.. I dont know who he is.. whether he’s powerful or what.. Whether justice was done in the case or not is a different conversation. You and I both know that the powerful in India get away with all kinds of things.. not just rape.
    The failure to understand the sentence-related simple argument.. is why I no longer debate feminists. I am sure I have outstayed my welcome, so I will disappear.

  28. 28
    Avicenna

    And I pointed out that the whole sentence is in fact a laughable 6 months if they work it off. The example you gave was faulty. It’s like murdering someone and getting the death penalty or a year in prison if you do hard labour…

    The only reason they are in jail is that it’s a group sentence and as long as Biswal is not caught they cannot effect a sentence.

    6 Freaking Months…

  29. 29
    Astrokid.NJ

    I dont know where you got that “6 months RI” from.. Its not in the Wiki. Maybe you googled and found something like this.. from June 24, 2010
    http://zeenews.india.com/news/odisha/orissa-hc-upholds-verdict-on-anjana-mishra-gang-rape-case_636342.html

    Pradip Sahu alias Padia and Dhirendra Mohanty alias Tuna were sentenced by lower court judge Mahendranath Patnaik to life imprisonment and a fine of Rs 5000 each or six months RI in lieu thereof on charges of kidnapping and raping Anjana, estranged wife of an Indian Forest Service officer.

    You seem to be reading it as: “Life Imprisonment AND Rs 5000″ OR “6 months RI”. As ridiculous as that sounds, Am I right?
    Your interpretation skills are really odd to me.. Do you seriously think their sentence is for 6 months RI?
    It should be read as “Life imprisonment” AND “Rs.5000 or 6 months RI”.

  30. 30
    Kilian Hekhuis

    That indeed seems the better interpretation. However, regardless of that, and regardless of whether harsh punishments have ever been given in rape cases in India, I submit that it doesn’t matter. Fact is that the overwhelming amount of rapes go unreported, and those that do get reported, lead to an underwhelming number of convictions, and most convictions are very limited considering the crime. So yes, we can argue about a single case, but that obscures the bigger picture.

  31. 31
    Avicenna

    Apparently I misread that… My bad, the article I read seemed to indicate the option was 6 Months of Rigorous Imprisonment but still? Want to know what she had to go through to get her trial?

    http://appiusforum.net/anjana_mishra.html

    I suggest you read how Mishra was treated if you fancy making a decision.

    And a life sentence is eligible for parole in 14 years from a standard parole board or sentence can be commuted by the government (if for instance you were doing stuff for someone in it… Read the case of Anjana Mishra). Many people do walk away earlier. Particularly if they have been covering for some politician.

    It’s not easy to win a rape case in India. You have to be willing to die to win sometimes.

    Want to know why rapes are so rare? Because of this…

  32. 32
    Kilian Hekhuis

    And a life sentence is eligible for parole in 14 years

    It seems you do not fancy them walking free in 14 years, which is available under a life imprisonment. Do you suggest a death sentence then?

  33. 33
    bradleybetts

    @Astrokid

    I thought you were gonna disappear? You said you would. You shouldn’t get people’s hopes up like that.

  34. 34
    Nepenthe

    Aw shit. Astrokid’s got me. Two guys have been convicted and sentenced for life–or possibly six months hard labor–for abducting and gang raping a woman. Clearly Indian men are desperately oppressed.

  1. 35
    Steubenvile and Serena » A Million Gods

    [...] wrote about the institutionalised distrust of rape victims during the Delhi Rape Riots. I wrote about how people assume that the rapist is just a beast of instinct and that the woman is [...]

  2. 36
    A Voice For Me/Age of Kali – Dave Futrelle should Quit His Job » A Million Gods

    [...] This time they are back in India with Anil (Women get free entry to Nightclubs! Oppression!) Kumar. He was the lovely person who defended the rape culture of India post the Delhi Rape. [...]

  3. 37
    I Get Mail – Rhino Den/Ranger Up and the fallacy of PTSD comparisons » A Million Gods

    […] is a woman in a prominent position who had a weakness. Considering AVfM ran articles claiming India is worse for men because they have to sit away from women (because men couldn’t stop touching women and had to pay for Disco entry) and that Afghanistan […]

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