Dear Lisa Grossman

(Warning – This post contains graphic images to demonstrate the tactics of the animal liberation movement.)

Dear Lisa Grossman

With regards to your answers to “A Student” I have some further points to make about what you have stated.

It’s a good question you ask- I wish more people would do the same. First of all you’re correct to fear for your friends. We’re 3000 strong globally at Negotiation Is Over- some more angry than others. I have attached some pics because it’s likely you don’t understand what’s happening and what’s about to happen. We do what’s right and we are showing students the truth for the first time.

First of all the animal holocaust is not an exaggeration. Just today the current number of animals killed for research has risen to 3.7 million PER YEAR. There’s never a year where the numbers go down. It’s not just mice in mazes anymore Pat, look at the pics- this is what’s being done to animals hourly. And the Universities are responsible for huge amounts of torture, fear and mutilation. We are moved by this horror as many have been in the last 2 centuries. BUT nothing has changed and more animals suffer and get thrown in the college incinerators. We are not going to do the same polite peaceful things, I mean only a moron would think that way!

How many animals do you think die for your food? Do you not care about insects? Perhaps you should start arguing for mosquito rights? I submit that you are just as “speciest” as me, I am driven by biology while you are driven by “what is cute”. What solution do you have to say… The australian rabbit problem? What solution do you have to ensure food stocks remain unspoilt by rodents? What solution do you have for insect control?

Because it seems to me that you only care about the animals who die for medical research, not the ones that die for your food and to ensure that you don’t catch a variety of diseases where animals are the vectors.

For the love of god!!!!

Yes, animal experimentation is horrible but you know what? So is the actual treatments we come up with. It may sound like fun and games but we do give the  things we tested on animals to humans too and it’s just as gruesome. Infact we sedate humans prior to surgery and give them anti-anxiety meds as part of pre-anaesthesia because a surgery is “terrifying”. And pictures of surgery are bloody and filled with tubes and gore.

Just look at those photos, those are pretty much poster children against medicine. But the thing is that’s what you see. For me the first scene is a scene of love and care. The man who died and is being autopsied has no one to care for him, no one but the hands of the man doing his autopsy. The only person in the entire world who cares about what happened to him is some stranger who is doing the autopsy for free in a crowded room. It’s a public service to give closure to those who cannot afford it. It is a gesture of ultimate respect and love for humanity. But the meaning of that isn’t there without me giving you the context of it. If I said “Horrid Hospital Conditions” you would be up in arms about doctors making a quick buck.

The second photo can simply be described as the standard “blood, gore, tubes, pain”. When we figure out what works in animals we then experiment on cadavers. Once we are sure on cadavers we try it out on the living volunteers. That’s they way it goes.

If I said that all patients are treated like these individuals in the photos you would consider doctors to be inhuman monsters who like causing pain solely for some perverse pleasure. But it’s not the case, the animal lib infiltrators seldom take photos of the nice things, instead focussing on the worst of care to paint a picture that all animal tests are like that 24/7.

If I should show you the removed sternum of a man you would consider me as a lunatic, but if I said that it was done for a life saving heart and lung transplant you would nod along and think “my, isn’t that Avicenna bloke and his medicine marvellous?”. Well not “you” Lisa Grossman, you would probably froth at the mouth and claim that the surgeons involved in it are greedy (yes… So?) and want to earn money (again? So? Camille and Lisa are rich enough to have computers to run websites and probably own fancy phones with things like twitter on them. Unlike the students they torment).

We have many elements to this fight. Some have stopped several airlines and ferries just this year from transporting lab animals to prisons. We petition congress to stop giving money. We tell alumni at colleges the same and show them the TRUTH. In California there have been fire bombings on vivisectors and the torture still continues!! Now its time to stop vivisection from getting started. That would mean showing students what will actually be expected of them. It’s wrong. We’re good and right and only showing the truth. We will fight for the animals if this doesn’t work. Seriously, No more “chatting” about a holocaust.

A lot of those prisons are large enclosures, a lot of animal liberation photos don’t show the actual living quarters of animals instead choosing to show quarantine quarters and lab spaces. Petitioning congress to not give money will just harm the people who need it. And more people need that research.

A few days ago a friend of mine’s girlfriend’s family came over to meet them, on their way back home they met with an accident. They all survived the crash, mainly due to the seatbelts which were tested on animals (and then human cadavers and finally actual volunteers), however their 2 year old daughter suffered a fragmented vertebra and damage to the spinal cord. We are crossing our fingers and well… for want of a better word “praying” for her recovery in whatever way we can. (I may be an atheist but I can understand a genuine gesture of love and despair. And it is not my place to make an argument out of someone’s grief.). But from the sound of things she may be a paraplegic, she has no response below her arms of which only one functions.

I have an uncle who met with an accident before I was born. His car was struck from behind leaving him severely neurologically damaged. He can barely speak and barely moves after years of intense physiotherapy. He was an intrepid geologist and a pilot, and now her can barely dress himself. It’s why Camille’s statement of attacking the disabled is met with such revulsion. It’s why her statement that she “cured herself of quadriplegia” is so abhorrently insulting. It’s why her statements about attacking the disabled are so utterly vile.

Falciparum has a right to live too! Who are you
to decide that it’s lifecycle is anathemic to humans!

So to say Stem Cell research isn’t worth doing because of some animals is to be like your friend Camille Marino. The truth is this, the answer lies in experimentation and that there is no alternative. A bunch of stem cells in vitro hasn’t translated to in vivo results, we haven’t been able to “cure neural degeneration” and while you and your movement don’t give a flying fuck about human beings and indeed most animals, I do both personally and professionally. However a kind of species phobia exists. While we draw the line at man, the animal lib draw the line at insects. The day I will respect your movement is the day you stand up and defend the right of mosquitoes to live. The day you gain respect for having principles is the day you stand up and say that clean drinking water is abhorrent due to all the animals it kills. The day you gain respect is the day you campaign against anti-helminthic drugs as worms have a right to live too. Until then the only animals you care about are the ones that fit into your world view. The rats you release  will happily be killed to ensure your food is plentiful and your living conditions aren’t atrocious.

And a little idea about those who suffer. The people you are punishing aren’t doctors or biologists or vets, they are our patients. There are roughly 5000 spinal injuries a year just in the USA alone who could benefit from stem cell research. You have 3000 followers world wide… To put it into perspective JUST the USA outnumbers your movement and the number of people who need the research into neuro-regenerative stem cells is enormous.


There aren’t a bazillion alternatives. There are few, those that we use are actually the alternatives.

An example you say? I have used this one before but I am writing it here fore posterity. The Clear Blue pregnancy test is an example of scientific technology reducing the usage of animals. Prior to the pregnancy test you took a

I don’t need an excuse to post bunnies.
Consider it as payment for the photos.
rabbit and injected urine from the woman into it’s blood. A small dose not a big one… You then waited a day and then you cut open the rabbit to look at it’s ovaries, changes in the ovaries would indicate the presence of HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) which is a key indicator of pregnancy. For this you needed a lab, a pathologist and one rabbit was going to die with every test. Instead through animal testing the clear blue pregnancy test was developed, which is a antibody reaction test where cultured antibodies are placed on the strip which turns blue in the presence of HCG.

The difference? The rabbit test was incredibly expensive. A single rabbit costs around $20, plus it’s feed and the care. Not to mention you need a lab with a pathologist. A single pregnancy test was around $200. While the clear blue test is around $12, purchased over the counter and can be done at home. That is an amazing alternative.

The ones bandied around by Animal Lib tend to be science fiction or alternatives that are already being used. To model an entire animal would require a total understanding of biochemistry and interactions which will only occur through animal testing anyways as otherwise you are not understanding animal physiology but merely guessing. A lot of what they want us to use simply doesn’t function like that.

Again there is an idea of using humans only for testing failing to realise that destructive testing is not acceptable in human beings. Basically the idea of destructive testing is to cause a system to fail in a specific way to learn about pathways, most of what we know is actually about destructive testing. If you want to find out what a key biochemical pathway does you knock out steps and see what happens. It’s how we find out about diseases, for instance Parkinson’s disease is due to a degradation of cells that supply the brain with dopamine, so we fixed that by giving L-Dopa. Turns out that caused a bunch of side effects outside the brain that we knew about, so later we added carbidopa to improve dosing and effect of drugs. We wouldn’t know about this interplay in cells and we wouldn’t know about this interplay without knocking out systems and seeing the effect. And indeed without going out and killing a bunch of people with Parkinsons to find out what’s so different about their brains.

Animal experimentation must be justified, you cannot simply run an experiment for “shits and giggles”. Ask any student writing a research proposal about how much emphasis on ethics and rationale for animal use is there.

Anyone who receives this knowledge and doesn’t change their paths and attitudes is guilty of the same. You’re students and we’ll try to teach you first with real, current information. But I seriously doubt all will listen so we have plans for them too. Dreams and goals and degrees can stay the same. We simply insists that no more animals be used to achieve them as its not necessary. See attached word doc and pics. Any decent young person would join us.

It’s science witches!!!

You are asking biologists to learn biology without ever seeing an animal. Look, I am breaking this down to you guys in terms anyone can understand.

When Dolores Umbridge taught the Defence against the Dark Arts class, she banned practicals despite the fact there was a rising threat of dark magic and Voldemort to fit in with the official political rather than the sensible line of thought. The ultimate point of teaching only theory without practicals is that it would have destroyed the ability of Dumbledore to raise an army from the student body as they wouldn’t have the requisite skills.


That’s funny. your boss Camille has specifically has threatened to injure paraplegics and is infamous mainly for threatening to kill and injure biology students. And remember the people being targeted are ironically the most powerful demography when it comes down to protecting animals. 

Pictured… A Badass

How many Camille Marino’s and Lisa Grossman’s are out protecting tigers? Even their heroes in things such as the Sea Shepherd movement are biologists. The biggest protectors of biodiversity and eco-systems are not frail vegans with placards but “vivisectors”.

I put this to my readers… How many people think Animal Liberation would give their lives to go protect gorillas in war torn regions like Diane Fossey? Or save Tigers, Whales, Rare Skinks, Slugs and tiny moths solely for the sake of tiny moths? How many will fight deforestation with damning reports and create lasting change and independance of the people so that they stop relying on wild animals and destroying habitats? 

We will however expose the truth about animals being tortured in labs for research. Its a sickness based in greed since there are alternatives. And people who do this will be exposed for their addiction.

It’s funny how life is such an addiction that Lisa’s own partner in crime, Camille willing traded her beliefs in animal equality to use products of animal experimentation to save her own life. The hypocrites aren’t us, it is the animal liberation movement who speak out of privilege of not needing medicine, so don’t see the inherent value.

We know even if it all comes to an abrupt halt, greedy people won’t miss a beat in making profit on using the alternatives. Thats why we work to abolish all animal testing immediately- its the fastest way to alternatives being developed and used. So theres no need for us to cause harm- and it’s totally against our world view! We have proof that people who know the truth about how innocent animals are used, they do not accept it on any level. Look at all the south florida businesses and workers who will no longer associate with primate products! No one was harmed for this! The truth was simply shown.

What alternatives? We already use alternatives a lot, the ultimate problem being that you develop alternatives to animal research through animal research otherwise you wouldn’t know efficacy. If a piece of alternate technique is worse than in vivo then why should we use it? And how would you even develop alternatives without comparing it to animal systems.Can anyone name one alternative developed by the likes of Camille Marino, Lisa Grossman and Walter Bond? Productive research? Improvements? A simple kind word to those who suffer from disease? A donation of something as simple as blood or bone marrow? A kind word to those who are ill? 

Instead you get death threats from Camille and get propoganda such as this pile of utter nonsense from Walter Bond. 
So Vegan diet or deity?

Veganism has become a cult rather than a dietary choice. It’s very close to becoming a deitary choice.
And I agree with Mr. Bond, Veganism is not an Adequate Diet. This fails under the simple fact of being animal liberation and being medically unsound advice. Culturally vegetarian people such as the Pharsi and Hindus manage to do so because they drink milk and eat eggs like “crazy”. They may not eat meat but they do get animal protein to supplement their vegetarian diets. Without which they would be prone to any number of diseases such as iron deficiency (so rife in India that I have seen “kiddie iron supplements”, something that is unheard of in the developed world because our kids drink milk and eat burgers). I have seen rickets because kids were so poor they couldn’t get milk. Like vegans.

You literally are dosing yourself with medications (supplements) meant to be aimed at people who cannot eat certain foods. Those are drugs and even things such as Vitamin D can make you badly ill. It’s why we encourage natural sources because the chance of OD is very low. It’s very hard to OD on Vitamin C, not unless you eat oranges all the time.

And PS — any students who continue their studies by refusing all dissections and all animal use ARE OUR HEROES!!

I refuse to learn until you substitute reality for mine!
And my reality is laden with talking meerkat!

 If you don’t do the dissection then you don’t get the marks allotted for the course. It’s as simple as that. You aren’t “making a statement”, you are making a stupid mistake.

It’s simple, if I don’t like cadavers my choices in dissection were “shut the hell up and stand there” or “don’t stand there and fail”. The same applies to biology students. This is a career driven course and skills must be learnt. Otherwise why are you even there? What do you possibly expect?

Your university course is there to teach you how to understand a subject, not to discuss about how you should be allowed to do what you want in a professional course rather than learn the skills needed.


  1. Oink says

    I wonder if she ever heard of Thalidomide!? A perfect example of a drug that DID NOT undergo enough animal testing and as a result caused disabilities in featus' (feati?).

    Interestingly, the US never approved Thalidomide because not enough testing was carried out… How would she feel about this? Is the government guilty of exploiting, condoning and encouraging animal experimentation. Or is it guilty only of protecting the population against the (very serious) effects of a drug!?

  2. anonymous says

    Full disclosure: I am a vegan and an animal rights advocate, as much as it makes sense to me. I also have a Ph.D. (not in biology but another natural science), so unlike most vegans and ARAs I actually know how science works.

    I know people like Lisa and Camille, and they are guilty of certain embellishments; particularly overuse of the term "vivisection" and exaggeration of the availability of alternatives. It's painfully difficult to get them to understand that alternatives don't just magically pop into existence and that scientists don't just do whatever for shits and giggles. As for the vivisection overuse that's obviously intentional as it just makes everything sound worse. I can all but assure you that there's significant cognitive dissonance in Camille's mind.

    There is one thing I don't think you really get though, and that's the basic philosophical position that *most* vegans and ARAs hold, which is that any animal's life is equal to any human's or other animal's. To them animal research really is as bad as human research. Most do accept that nature isn't nice enough to allow one to live a healthy life without killing *something* (like mosquitoes), but as long as they're convinced that animal research is unnecessary they're going to oppose it. I personally *don't* consider animals to be equal to humans, I just don't think they're so inferior as to justify even mild torture/killing for things like entertainment and food. This makes me an anomaly among vegans and is the reason I don't oppose animal use in medical research.

    Of course I have to ask a serious question: do you have any actual training in nutrition? I've noticed you say several times that animal products are definitely necessary in the human diet, so I honestly want to know what makes you feel qualified to make such claims.

  3. says

    The drug is pretty damn useful, it's used under a different name now to deal with patients who suffer from chronic nausea in cases such as HIV/AIDS and Cancer. The whole teratogen thing isn't an issue for them.

    Thalidomide was an utter tragedy brought by improper testing and because we simply didn't understand a lot of the newer drugs coming out of biology. We didn't know much about infant development and we didn't know how drugs crossed the placental barrier (Many drugs are teratogenic but don't cross the barrier meaning they have no effect in vivo despite showing in vitro effects).

    And Oink, Lisa's mate Camille Marino threatened to assault quadriplegics… I am sure they don't really care about the people as much as they care about fighting the power.

  4. anonymous says

    It's a major issue here in the USA that doctors usually *don't* get trained in nutrition. Only a handful of medical schools even offer courses in it, and none of those schools require those courses. As an aside, I'm glad my question didn't come across as inflammatory, which I thought it might after re-reading it.

    I do know about amino acids of course, and those are all available if you combine plant-based protein sources. Rice plus any legumes will do the trick. I've heard people claim that that's not good enough for some reason, but they've never cited any actual evidence or research. The vitamins and minerals you mentioned can be tricky too, but with fortified foods (like that soy milk) only B12 remains an issue, I believe.

    "Remember our vegans exist solely because we have the resources to provide a constant balanced diet no matter the season."
    Yeah, veganism is only really possible in "first-world" countries. I think that's often unrealized as well. What might be more crazy is that most vegans oppose things like Heifer International because they think that it will evolve into large factory farming practices like we have in the U.S. In principle I'm not a fan either, but we live in an imperfect world where I think it's a pretty good idea.

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